This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light. These days, everything is go, go go. It's NonStop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family, expect you to be on twenty four seven. Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Coors Light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold loggered, cold filtered, and cold package. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. He's literally made to chill. Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with drizzling or INSTATCRT Celebrate Responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. I'm Cheneio Bloomackay, I'm Lisa Leslie, and we're very excited to tell you about our new podcast with Blue Wire Front and Center. Lisa and I are breaking down what's going on in our lives and the world and keeping it one hundred. We're also learning from amazing guests as well, like Emmanuel Acho. People it showed love to me, I forever got their Backfoicate Fox if the foundation is right, then the rest of it's gonna go wrong from there any more. Subscribe to Front and Center Today, What is krack Alak and Harder Knox Listeners, I am Dan for Valley coming at you once again without my fabulous co host Adam Frommel. We do still have a loaded episode for you today. I've tied up which reports Grant Hughes to come on and discuss all the latest rumors. We do have to bear in mind that we approach these news breaks with caution because there are strategic leaks, there are agendas here. Not all of these rumors are actually legitimate. Most of them are not going to pan out, but they're still fun to bounce around and talk about theoretical We touch on Victor Oladipo, Drew Holiday, Aaron Gordon, some other trade candidates. We have hypothetical trades galore in this episode, and yes that includes Russell Westbrook and the Houston Rockets. Grant and I also discussed them a bunch. Follow him on Twitter by the way at GT Underscore Hughes. However, we have in the latter half of this episode Salmon Ali coming on the podcast. He's a fellow Blue Wire podcasters host the Red Nation Hoops podcast. You can follow him on Twitter at Salmon Ali NBA. That's at sal m A n A l I NBA. He also covers the Rockets for ESPN ninety seven five. He's going to give us some insight into what's going on in Houston with Russell Westbrook, James Harden, the future of the Rockets right now. We talk about it all. It's a it's a fun conversation. We'll have time stance attached to the beginning of this episode so you can bounce around if you don't want to listen to everything, although I highly recommend it. Before we dive in, though, I just want to remind beg plead implore every single one of you to subscribe and download to this podcast. Subscriptions really help us and downloading every episode juice those numbers, guys come on really help us out. If you've enjoyed the you know, four to six hours of content we're pumping out a week at this point, that would be great. Also, whether or not you're using iTunes, please please pretty please head over there search Hardwood Knox throw us a five star rating. Writer review criticism is fine as well as long as you throw a five star rating. We are keeping track and reading it all and also follow us on Twitter at Hardwood Knox and you can find us on YouTube search YouTube go to YouTube search Hardwood Knox. We will show up and subscribe. Last, but certainly not least, major shouts to our sponsors, without whom this podcast would not be possible. Bet Online, dot Ag and indeed that is a mouthful that I just blew through. But again, please subscribe to this podcast download every episode. That's the best way to help us out. We love every single one of our listeners. Now it's time to talk some hoops, first with Bleacher Reports Grant Hughes, followed by Salmon Ali from ESPN ninety seven point five. Welcome back, Hardwoodknox listeners. Coming at you this time with Grant Hughes of Bleacher Report, a longtime co worker and friend of mine, also a very special friend of the potties around these parts all the time. Follow him on Twitter at gt Underscore Hughes. Lots of NBA rumors and stuff to get to. I was just telling I love this time of year because we've been in the business, around the business long enough to know that most of the chatter is just absolute shit or these strategic leaks, but I still really enjoy it, like going through the different scenarios, and before I ask whether you agree, and before we get to some of these rumors, grant, how the hell are you? I'm doing great, and I'll this is dan. This is called a segue because I'm gonna answer your unasked question right now and saying I like it too. And actually I feel the same way that after a while, when this time of year, even though we're at a different time of year than this would normally happen, this sort of portion of the season, sort of things start to seem familiar, like, oh, this is this rumor or leak is sort of like the one four years ago that was this. You know, there's only so many things that can be leaked, And actually the fun part for me a lot of times is trying to decide like, well, okay, so who leaked this? Is it the agent or is it the organization or you know, someone else close to the player, And what's the point, you know, because you can sort of take it as yeah, even if it is a bullshit rumor, which the vast majority right now I think are, you can always sort of then use that to try to figure out, like, what's everybody's motivation and what's what's actually going to happen based on what you determine answering that question. So even if you get a little jaded, as I think I certainly am at this point, you can still find something interesting about it. Yeah. Look, I'm the type of person that's gonna make a joke or throw off the cuff analysis on the timeline first, and then think it through second about what you just said, where it's like, oh, where is this coming from, what's the angle, what's the purpose. It's also I don't want to say it feel dirty, but I enjoy it so much this time of year. And then yet, like one of the problems with the league is that they probably focus too much on transactions or I would say, ascribe too much value to the theoretical, because that's what they spend time discussing. Where it's oh, the Bucks are playing anyone on national TV, and this is it's it's fucking January. Is jan is gonna leave a year and a half from now. So I get the frustration there, but I feel like it's ok to indulge it this time of year. Well, especially because and we were talking about this before two, this offseason is so condensed now that you know, as these rumors come fast and furious, it's gonna be like a week or you know, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but not much before we figure out if they're true or not, and then we could just cross them off or say, wow, I can't believe that. You know that Victor Oladipo's on the Knicks now, like you're saying on whatever, Like it's we're gonna get resolutions a lot more quickly because this offseason is going to go in a blink. So so that's a positive too. Even though sports had a break, your business didn't. You have to keep moving and that makes hiring more important than ever. Indeed is here to help. Indeed dot Com is the number one job site in the world because Indeed gets you the best people fast, and like other sites, Indeed gives you full control and payment flexibility over your hiring. You only pay for what you need, you can pause your account at any time, and there are no long term contracts. Plus, Indeed provides powerful tools to make your search that much easier, like sponsored jobs, which are shown to be three and a half times more likely to result than a higher With seventy three percent of online job seekers visiting Indeed each month, Indeed is going to get you the important higher unique just like they have for over three million businesses. Right now, Indeed is offering our listeners a free seventy five dollars credit to boost your job post, which means more quality candidates will see it fast. Try Indeed out with a free seventy five dollars credit at indeed dot com slash blue wire. This is their best offer available anywhere. Go right now to indeed dot com slash blue Wire. Terms and conditions apply. Offer valid through December thirty. First, look, let's start. Let's not start with old people. Let's just let's start in Houston because that place is going up in flames. I don't necessarily want to be labor it because we just talked to Salman Ali about it. However, I am curious your thoughts and just a brief recap of everything that's happened basically over it's definitely been building towards this. But in the past thirty six hours, essentially, we have heard that Russell Westbrook and James Harden Puri's Piano are concerned about the direction of the Franchi eyes. While that story portrayed that no trade request was imminent, and even Tim McMahon on The Hoop Collective Thursday said that no trade request had been formal for Westbrook. Sham Sharania and Kelly Echo of The Athletic have basically reported that response out of Houston. He prefers to assume the role that he had in Oksey as a floor general, and that to me, I take that as a trade request. And so now people are just wondering what happens to the rockets, because if you move Russ, it's almost certainly going to be for a negative return because his contract is just so cumbersome, and I don't you know, if I were Houston, I would not be giving up a first round pick as part of that deal because that's just a clear like and the first all they can only trade their twenty twenty two first round pick, so because they've already traded a zillion, but you don't want to be in a position where you're moving him and have to attach a sweetener, even though at three years and one hundred thirty two point six million dollars you might have to, or the reality is like I don't, I honestly don't know what you could get as a return. And the final thing I'll say is Russell Westbrook is still really good. He is, I would say, a borderline NBA player to me still, and people will argue he's a no brainer. It's just that his fit is so complicated in so many places that unless you're basically structuring your team around him, or he's in a situation like Houston where you just have four out around him at all times and there is one other co star there so he's not doing it alone, I don't necessarily see the point in gambling on him. And if it didn't work out with Harden, who he actively wanted to play with last summer, and vice versa, like I just don't know, like what you do in Houston, Like I just don't know where you go from here. So I just went on an incoherent rant, like what is your just thoughts on this entire cluster? You know what? At this point? So I mean, I have a lot. The first thing is I think that I don't want to make it like a personal thing about Russell Westbrook specifically, so I'll just say that a player like him, insofar as there are any, is really kind of the worst kind of player you can have on a roster, and so and and and that doesn't need to mean that your belief that he's a borderline all NBA player is wrong, because I think that that actually that I buy that. But what I mean is, if you have Russell Westbrook on your team, we just learned for sure that he will not be satisfied unless he is the Alpha and Omega, unless he is basically, you know, the MVP version that was on the thunder post Kevin Durant, Like that's that's who who he wants to be for an NBA team, And we just learned that he's really not capable of being different than that and being happy. So that and and and if you have that version of Russell Westbrook, the post Kadi Russ on your team, congratulations, you have like a sixth seed ceiling in like a forty seven wins season. Like that's as good as you're going to be. I think, because he just determines he's like a pickup player that he determines if your team wins or loses, because he's gonna shoot you into it or out of it, and there's just only a certain number of ways you can play with him on the roster. He's basically a center, right because you can't play with a conventional center with him and succeed because of the spacing. So he has all these strategic and tactical limitations he imposes on you, and then there's on top of that the salary, and then on top of that there's his belief or his desire to be the guy. So I think that makes him one of the least palatable players to have on your roster in the entire NBA. And that's again, that is different than saying he sucks. He does not suck. It's just a huge challenge to make him work and I don't know if it's possible. So this is not a solutions based discussion. I'm just pointing out problems because I don't have solutions, like we're just All I'm doing is like emphasizing what's very obvious. I think it's obvious. But yeah, man, like if if you're if you're the Hornets, if you're the Knicks, those are the types of teams that Westbrook. Actually, if you squint, makes sense because he'll make you mediocre or sort of around that and interesting, and if you haven't been that for a while, then I think that's something to aspire to for certain franchises. But yeah, man, like that's a ton of money. That's a tough player to fit. Like I just uh and and look, honestly, is this surprising? I mean, I'm not I'm not surprised at all that this Houston thing went bad. I think it was foreseeable, you know when when they brought him in in the first place, that was one of the trades that you knew was terrible in real and they gave up assets with Chris Paul to do it. Like I remember at the time, the discussion was my opinion, I'm sure I've said this more than once, was that like, I'm actually not sure that Chris. I actually think Chris Paul is better for the Rockets than than Westbrook would be. Just take the picks out of it. So that made no sense from the jump. And then yeah, the fit issues were always obvious and just yeah, I mean, it's crazy when we're not smarter than Darryl Moorey, I don't think again, you know, what this also says to me is that Darren he probably didn't want to do this in the first place, right, Like you don't want to you don't want to displace the blame onto James Harden or Till Well. I mean, I'll throw all the blame on Til with Fatita all day long. But he is like culpable in this. But at the same time, like that was just that was not a Daryl Morey trade. It was just so clear that that was. And also I don't know, like how do you get to the point where you're giving up that many assets? Was it because the thunder knew that Harden was desperate to play with Westbrook or that he was not going to play with Paul anymore? It's like, what is even if Daryl Morey's forced to make that trade, Like what forces him to have to give up so much value? Where it was it was two first and two swaps right plus Chris Paul. Yeah, I would just be curious to see, like what was the leverage for Oksey in that situation? Yeah, I don't know. See, it seemed like one of those deals where it's sort of it's sort of like the Paul George one where where you know, although maybe not because the Clippers were kind of like, well, we're willing to do this because we're giving up all this stuff for Paul George and really Kawhi Leonard, because Kawhi is not coming unless we get Paul George McMahon put it is that the Thunder found a way to trade Kawhi Leonard without ever having him on that roster. Right, Yeah, that's really And so maybe it was like, well, Chris Paul, we gotta treat him because him and James Harden don't get along and everybody knows it, and so the Thunder are gonna I mean, I don't know. You know what's funny to me though, is is as you're thinking of, like what's a good Russ destination or even a James Harden destination if it comes to that, Like what should Houston be looking for, it's probably the Thunder with like Steven Adams expiring deal and a bunch of picks. It's just I think they should just run it back. I think just let's do it over then re swap assets, and that would that would be my next question. And so do you see like any reasonable destinations for Russ the ones we've heard mentioned so far? I believe are I don't know if the Pistons were concretely linked, but they were mentioned. The Hornets and Knicks have definitely been linked. Is that it? Like, am I missing? Like I don't know what other teams have been I know the Clippers have been mentioned and gentially, I don't know if it's been officially. It just doesn't feel like there's been a ton of interest in him, and I don't know why there would be when you have Chris Paul floating around out there, a superior player on a shorter deal. So and then even Brian Winhorse had said it, he reported that he surveyed the league and there's not a ton of interest in Russell Westbrook And so that's it opens up the other conversation of like there needs to be something done about these supermaxes where they just don't count as much against the cap or something like the players still get their money because they come they seemed like they would come backbreaking from a team building perspective, and I look, I think billionaire should spend that they should go into luxury tax when they absolutely have to. At the same time, like there's a clear hurdle there, like it's not MLB where you could just be like, well, we're going to spend whatever we want, no matter how much we already spent. There's actually limits in place, like it makes it harder for you to spend at a point. So that's definitely a conversation to have. But we're talking about a very unique dilemma because it's it's a player who if you trade for him, I think whether you're in the West or the East, there's you automatically become at least a possible playoff team. And yet there's just no interest in him. And it might come back to how hard it is for to find a co star fit with him. And then also, as you already mentioned, it doesn't seem like he's willing to be the number two, and so it almost feels like he has to be where the player is like just a little bit worse than him. Maybe like the Paul George was probably his per like optimal teammate. I probably would have ranked Paul George ahead of him when you're going through the pecking order of star power in the NBA. But because Paul George doesn't necessarily want to dominate the ball on offense, like that's the fit. But I could even like Let's say a Jason Tatum, who's very clearly the better player at this point, but Russell Westbrook would probably play with him because Tatum doesn't necessarily need to have the ball as much as a James Harden or even a Luca don Chich or just someone or Kevin Durant, who Russell Westbrook actually played with. Yeah. No, as I'm looking through, I mean the Knicks again for all the wrong reasons. The Knicks and Hornets makes sense. The Clippers are a joke to me, Like, that's just like, there's no chance that that makes sense content. I would support it, yeah, for the hashtag content to be worth the other thing. The other teams you have to rule out though, So I'm just looking through. It's like, Okay, what about the Kings. It's like, well, no, because they value Darren Fox. And if you put Russell Westbrook on, throw all the other obvious fit issues out. Like you can't put Westbrook on a team that has a young player that the franchise believes is going to be, you know, it's leader, because suddenly that guy is second fiddle, like way second fiddle. If you get like full on russ On and I'm back tour, you know type of thing. So you got to rule those teams out too. I mean, like Orlando like it. I don't know how what you put together do that, but Orlando is in that bucket of we've been uninteresting and not very good, and we'd at least like to be interesting and maybe a little better something like that. You know, you have to look around like the seven to eleven or twelve seed range in each conference I think as a starting point, because you can't put them on a terrible team, can't put them on a really good team with great players. So you've got that middle area to kind of play around with, I think. And that's about it. Yeah, And I don't think it helps that there are other better suited guards on the market. We're not even talking about just Chris Paul, but like Drew Holiday is available, so you're competing with those two who are Drew Holiday is going to be a free agent after next year if your clises player option, Russ is probably the better player in a vacuum, but you're gonna, like Holidays contract more, and then Chris Paul, again, like we said, is actually the superior player. So I don't know how you get around that I'm wondering if there's just going to be a team that comes out of the woodwork randomly here where it's not. I think everyone's looking towards the Charlotte and New York's because they assume that those are the teams that will be comfortable, like really accelerating the rebuilt to the point of let's chase that seven eight seed in the Eastern Conference. I'm just curious, like if a team will come out of nowhere and do something. But the problem is that I don't know what team that's gonna be. I've thought about the Lakers a little bit, just because could they be a little star hungry and want that second playmaker with Lebron getting older, and this is a star that they could actually acquire with I'll say the poopoo platter of salary that they have to offer. But like in that deal, first of all, the deal effectively has to be Danny Green. You need Avery Bradley to opt in, which it doesn't sound like he's going to, so that could be a move point there. But let's say he does. You need JaVale McGee to opt in as well. You have those three salaries. Then you could also throw Quinn Cook in there. If you can guarantee his salary, that's four. You're gonna have to trade Kyle Kuzma, that's five. And then I would think you have to trade number twenty eight as an actual salary because that's your next most like expensive salary filler, since you're not gonna move Davis or Lebron James. And so at that point, it's like, Okay, we just gave up expiring contracts of i'll say three to four players. When you look at Kuzma, Bradley Green, and number twenty eight that could actually help you next season, you kind of need something else back other than Russell Westbrook in return, I would think, And that gets into the conversation of if you're Houston, are you giving away your twenty twenty two pick to do that? What's the protection need to be? Are you willing? The thing I proposed was that exact deal from Los Angeles for Westbrook and then a twenty twenty two pick swap, which for Houston, I think you try and avoid that at all costs because the next question I'm good bound to ask you is would be is James harden Long for Houston? At this point if you end up moving him, you know, in the middle of this year, even after this year, like you could be bad ahead of that twenty twenty two draft, and all of a sudden you're giving the Lakers like this premo asset and your bereft of picks to begin with, unless you've gotten a killer ransom as part of a James Harden trade. So they're just in this dilemma where even if there's a team that comes out of the woodwork, it's the type of team where I'm wondering, like they like, who has just the expendable contracts to give up even if you're willing to take on Westbrook's money, And there are so very few of those among the really good teams in the NBA. Yeah, I agree, I don't. I just I don't see it, and like it will have to be a team that comes out of the woodwork if it's not one of those obvious ones we mentioned. The Knicks are the Hornets, So so yeah, I don't know. Do you think hardon is how much longer is James Harden on the Rockets? I will say that I will be mildly surprised if he's still in Houston at starting twenty one twenty two. I could see him finishing this year. But if they trade Westbrook or this thing just implodes, which it's it's already teetering on implosion. You have PJ. Tucker entering free agency next year. He's mad about his contract. Everyone's mad in Houston. First of all, Bruto Kabaklo might Folklow might be mad about his contract, which I don't know, so I would at this point. I just feel like the writings on the wall, and you know, James Harden, if he really pushed for the Rockets to give up assets for Russell Westbrook, He's definitely deserves to shoulder some of the blame here. But I don't know why you would want to stay in Houston at this point when you look at what's sort of happened. They've just over returned to everything that made them special. And again is how much is hardened at fault because they structured that entire franchise around him. But you got away from that with yeah, maybe it's still built around James. The James Harden ethos where you know Russ is talking about the lack of accountability there and James Harden seems more of like a laid back lead by example type player. Is that like that's on Harden to some extent then too, so like they're here in part because of Harden. But when you just look at this, you know the trajectory of this team, like what is there to like the moves? There are no moves unless there's a team that's really gonna overvalue Westbrook. And no, I don't think he's immovable because we've proven time and again that these contracts are just going to get turned over a zillion different times, no matter how expensive they are. But what is the move here? With Eric Gordon guaranteed three more years on his deal at fifty four point seven million of the fourth years completely no guaranteed. Yeah, you have Robert Covington with two years and like twenty five million left. But if you're trading Robert Covington, my bet is you're actually getting worse. And it would be ditto for PJ. Tucker, who at this point I'd be shocked if he's back in Houston after next season unless they're going to give him an extension before the year. So, like, what is the move here? And if you're hardened, you're seeing these other teams on the come up in the West, like Dallas is there. Golden State's going to be healthier this year. The Lakers, I would assume, aren't going anywhere for a while, did over the Clippers. The Jazz always sort of hang around, like what a Phoenix trades for Chris Paul and you have to watch, you know, Chris Paul resurrect basketball in the state of Arizona, where you played college college ball. I feel like we're going to reach a point where it won't be necessarily Houston's decision, but that James Harden is going to push for out. And I think that point, if it's not already there, if it's not happening behind the scenes already, it will happen before next season. Yeah, I think so. There's I mean, the thing to me that would keep Harden in Houston through I mean, let's I don't know about the end of this contract, but you know, which ends in twenty twenty three, but at least through next year or this year, I guess we can call it now, is that I don't know if he's ever going to find a situation where he is more powerful because you know, like the way that the Rockets did everything, like from who's on the team to how they played to you know, all these you know, these stylistic advances. Then the centerless stuff like Russell Westbrook had a part to play in that. But you know, Harden really seems to be like the single most influential figure in that organization. And I think that's true to some extent of a lot of big names, but you really don't see it to this degree. And so like if he's if he and I think he came out and said or you know, sources is close to him or whatever said that he's locked in on on this year and you know contract unlike Russ, you know, wants to stay, which is what you should say, I guess, but to keep your trade value high. But I think that he's just got it really good. And if winning, I mean, you know that's the problem though, is how much does really being in total control of an organization matter if you're just not going to be able to win and there's no good way to make your team better. Like so I agree that at some point, I don't know if I'm ready to say that this is his last season with the team, but I don't think there's any scenario where he finishes his current contract. I think even if it's just the Rockets wising up and realizing our only path forward to not sucking for like the ten years after Hardened leaves is to use him to get some you know, some some assets back. It maybe them that decides it eventually, if he's not the one, you know, asking out. The last thing I'll ask you about this is what is the team that right now can put together an offer for James Harden that wouldn't make Hughes to necessarily hang up the phone. Like let's say, things are just tottering on the brink. James Harden, like you said, is locked in, wants to be prepared for this season, doesn't really does really want out of Houston. But like as ESPN report, it doesn't seem like the situation is great. What's the team that could come in right now and at least get the Rockets to think about it. I told you it's the thunder Man, right, They've got all their picks, They've got the expiring salary. If you want to cut money, they've got I mean sure, if you really you get SGA back or something like that. I mean, it really is the thunder which of course, is never ever going to happen. I don't know, Like I guess it depends on what the Rockets want, because you could just start going down the list of expiring deals and say, let's get DeMar Derozen or LaMarcus Aldridge or or it'd be really funny if they moved Harden with the intent to like tinker around with Russell Westbrook moving forward. Now, I for one want to see the Westbrook DeRos in backcourt. Oh God, can you imagine? No, I don't know. That's a great question. Like I'm trying to talk myself into, like if you're the Nuggets, would you do Jamal Murray and something? Or like do the Gary Harris Michael Porter Junior a bunch of picks package with more salary throwing it? Like, I don't want to see what Harden would do to the way Yokich has the team playing, So like that's out. I don't have a good answer for you. I mean, do you have anything like Harden is Harden so determines how you play that it's really difficult to imagine him on a team kind of like Westbrook with another they're you know, defining star. I think the team that stares you in the face. I think the thunder are one. There's the Philly one, just because if they're willing to give up and beat or Simmons in that deal, like it's a whole new ball game, you attach, you know, if it's I mean, if Russell Westbrook is still there, like Simmons and picks, like that's the Simmons Westbrook fit would be who that would be something the team. I will mention though, New Orleans, like they have all those Lakers picks and they have like I guess stuff like you're not giving up Zion Williamson as part of that deal or maybe you are, like if it was just Zion and like filler, would you do it? If you're New Orleans, I don't, you might have to consider it. But they have all those Lakers picks their own picks moving forward. They have Nikil Alexander Walker, they have Lonzo Ball, they have Josh Hart. There's like a lot of stuff they could get done. You could look at is Houston interested in like some sort of sign and trade scenario for brandon ingram as well? They just they they have Jackson Hayes. If Houston was really looking to reboot, they have stuff that I think could get it done, and I would not move. I think it would only make sense to actually make such a move if you're keeping Zion and Drew Holiday as part of it. It would just make so much sense to still have Harden there. You definitely have to keep at least one of Ingram or Holiday in that scenario to me, But they have They just have a lot of stuff. And so if it gets to that point and look the good the good thing about their quote unquote stuff is like, if you're moving Drew Holiday, he has one year left on his deal, because they do need salary filler to make this work, like Lonzo Ball is sort of expensive relative to people who are on a rookie scale contract, but you do have to get you know, you're taking back forty one point three million dollars in hardened salary, So I don't necessarily know what the exact package has to look like. Again, there's the Ingram sign and Trader you have Holiday if you need to use it, But there's that would be the other team that stands out to me, it's gonna be tough, man. I don't I got nothing else left on hard and other than to say it's going to be tough, which is also my same analysis of Westbrook, So double tough for the Rockets. The weight is finally over. Football is back. You might not be at a game this year, but you can still be in on the action at bet online. 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So there was the one on Thursday that said he told he asked players from the Heat, Raptors and Knicks Nicks of all teams in front of his own teammates if he could come play with them, which is just shout out to the Knicks because this just proves that Frankie Lakina is a superstar. Draw I just the players they want to come and be his teammates, So shout out to the Knicks and Frankie Lakina. There was also Victor Oladipo's sister, I believe on Twitter like quote tweeted the report and said something about, you know which teammate is really opening his mouth? And then someone responded with this is definitely Miles Turner, and she agreed with him them and then Myles Turner like slipped in with a response like saying, oh, it's like that things are clearly not okay in Pacer world, and so what happens here? I think the assumption was that the Pacers were just gonna let it ride. They have Nate Bjorkan as their head coach now, and you just see where you lie at the trade deadline. All the people's value is probably so low just because he hasn't really ever fully regained form following that twenty eighteen quad injury. You're not gonna lose much, if anything, You're only gonna maybe build up his value if you let him play it all the trade deadline, or maybe the fit just works out and you want to keep him, but now like something needs to change here. Well here's so the thing is, I think what you said about you know that now maybe not maybe isn't the time and the deadline might be better. I think we could apply that to almost every trade we discuss preseason because generally, like just this idea that you have to make your team before the season starts is crazy to me because you don't really know. I mean, I don't think this is a hot take at all. I'm sure people have said this, but like waiting till the deadline just isn't as fun to talk about. So we got to do this now. But yeah, no, to me, I kind of thought Oladipo was going to be traded before the season started before this, because it just it just felt like, I don't know, maybe I get I got swayed by all the all the buzz and all the reports and just constant, you know, the industry that we're in. It made it seem like it was more likely than it actually was. But like, where's your where's your sense of taste Vick Like what I get. I get the rap for sure, you know, sure, the Raptors who are the other team, the Heat, Yeah, everybody wants to play for those teams. I get it. But the Knicks is just like, man, what what does this guy want? It doesn't make any sense. It's which one of these doesn't belong situation. The other thing that's interesting to me is that I always think about how like Oladipo did not sign with the Pacers, right, and like Jimmy Butler didn't sign. You know, he got traded to the Timberwolves and then the Sixers, and you know, Russ got this different set of circumstances, but he got traded to the Rockets. He didn't sign there. Kyrie got traded to the Celtics. Like I kind of think maybe we need to start being a little more on the lookout for guys that get traded to teams and they didn't have control over, because it seems like a pattern is developing where those are always the guys that at some point just decide like nah, I'm this is it. I'm yeah. I'm just saying from spotting trends, and VIC seems to be the latest in that I don't know what you get for him on the market at this point, though I still think maybe waiting might be the best play because I think you boost his value and his salary for where next season is palatable. But you're dealing with the performance post injury, and at this point, like, look the sample size of his being an All NBA player versus his being very much not an All NBA player. It tilts so far towards the ladder that I don't know what his value ends up being. That might be a player if Lakers fans need to, like we need a third star or something like, maybe you could get in on that by including Kuzma Caruso and a twenty twenty two pick swap, Like maybe that's something that entices Indiana along with salary filler. I look, they're going to look to remain competitive, so maybe having a Danny Green and that deal is something that intrigues them too. There was a rumor, though this is per Kevin O'Connor, that the Celtics are interested among the teams interested in Victor Lodipo. So I'm just curious about how you feel about that fit or if there's any team that and I think there are probably a few that I think you could justify can move for Aladipo. But if there's one that stands out or where you'd at least be like super tantalized by his fit there, well, I mean, the Lakers are definitely one, and part of that is just because of the we're a year to year team anyway, So if we lose him for nothing, or if this flops, like we really only gave up Kuzma, who we don't want to pay what we're gonna have to pay on his next deal in Green or whatever, so that makes sense. I mean, I think the Clippers actually, if they're trying to really flip things around and get, you know, a point guard that can play both end. He's not a real point guard, but I would have no problem playing him there because he can guard ones like, you know, he's gonna give you sort of a more defense than Lou Williams, which is not hard, and more offense than Patrick Beverley. Again, assuming he's healthy and he's a big name and you know, something like that. I actually think sort of almost anywhere you imagine, well, where does Victor Oladipo make sense? Drew Holiday makes more. So that's another hurdle for the Pacers is that you know, you've got a guy who they're both rentals. Holiday makes a little more money, but I think if you pulled every team in the NBA, they'd just rather have Drew Holiday and pay the seven million more or whatever it is. So so that's a big That's a big problem is that it's kind of like the rust thing with there's Chris Paul and there's other better options that the Pacers are just just in I mean, nothing close to a position of strength, Trent, and that was that was true before he's broadcast. It's being broadcast that he's trying to get off his own team. Right, that's a great point. I'm actually I'm intrigued by the fit with Boston. And the thing I have thought about is, so like let's say your Phoenix and the Chris Paul trade is going to happen. You have the number ten pick, which you're not going to my assumptions that they're not giving up number ten unless they're getting a pick back or something. They're not goiving up number ten. Bridges eight and obviously or Booker. So you have number ten, and you know Chris Paul is coming. Do you also know that like because of the number of players you're going to trade out, like you're the body count there is going to be like a little bit lower. Either you're going to use your cap space or in which case that cost you Aaron Baines and Dario sarch and Frank Kamitzky, or you know you're going to keep those guys and you just won't have a ton of wiggle room other than maybe the room exception or the non tax payersmid level. However, you're going to structure your books. So let's say again you're at number ten and anything's happening in this draft, and let's say you like Sadiq Bay or Patrick Williams, and Patrick Williams is like my, Like, that's the guy I've like zoomed in on every year. There's one or two of them, and he's it for me, and he's been shooting up draft boards. I've seen him mocked now as high as seven. I've also seen him mocked as low as sixteen. Let's just say a Patrick Williams or again a Sadiq Bay, who definitely would fit there, is going to be available at fourteen, and the Celtics offer you fourteen, and I think they have twenty six and thirty. Are those the pigs that they have for number ten? And so you can move back to fourteen, get two extra players in the first round, and you're still getting the player at fourteen. One of the players. I'm sure you'd want Devin Vassell instead, but I feel like he's gonna go before ten, which is why maybe you consider this. So you get one of those players. Still you have those picks, and then Boston turns around, goes to Indy and they have number ten Gordon Hayward and let's say they're offering like a future pick of their own, or you have Romeo Langford, you have Grant Williams. It's Gordon Ayward number ten and stuff for Miles Turner and Victor Oladipo. Are you considering that if you're Indiana, Oh, I've found Boston, I'm considering the hell out of that. But if I'm Indiana, I don't know. I guess so I actually have kind of gamed this out as as a Drew Holiday situation, which is the logic still applies where it's your Boston. You flip those three firsts into you know, something higher in the top ten range. I'm not sure what teams willing to do that necessarily, but say you do that and then you're looking at using Hayward in the pick to get I was thinking Holiday or something like that. If I'm Boston, why don't I just keep Hayward and pick the guy at number ten or or whatever it ends up being, Because you know, like the Celtics are in a situation where even if they you know, their roster as almost full as it is, they've got these three first, they just basically can't use them all, and they've got major tax problems going forward, and so what Boston needs is another guy on a rookie scale deal who is actually good and might play for them. So I mean, like if the Celtics could get Patrick Williams and keep Gordon Hayward at his money, I mean, I don't know. I like Miles Turner a lot, and you know, I like Oladipo, but that's something I'm thinking I might not do, just because I think for them Celtics, that's just your risk is a lot lower, and maybe your path to you know, keeping Tatum and Brown super on super competitive teams for a very long time depends more on getting another younger guy, which is weird because their core guys are so young. But I don't know. I mean, that's I think that's a reasonable trade. I just if I'm Boston again and I can trade up using those three picks, I might just want to keep that better pick that I got. That's a good point too, not really something I consider. It would definitely get expensive if you were hashing out a deal. And again it's not just Hayward and ten for the dual acquisition of Aladipo and turn Up, but if you're getting both, I actually might consider it, because you could let Victor Ladipo walk after next year and then you still have Miles Turner and you do need I would say long term it upgrade at the center position. However, you probably want someone who matches up better with Joel and bad So that's a you're right if if you can get a Patrick Williams or it's a deep Bay at ten like because those are the guys that I would like, but why wouldn't you do it? Then that is a good point. Although if you were able to get Drew Holiday for that package Gordon Hayward and ten, you would actually need to take back more money from New Orleans because Gordon Hayward has a thirty four point two million dollar player option, and then I don't know like it. I think I would still do it just like Drew Holiday. I feel like doesn't really have to interfere with what Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown are doing. Maybe it's maybe you're like too small in that regard because he's about the same size as Victor Ladipo, and then you still have like marked as smart, you have Kemba Walker. It's like there's the downside there whether you're training for Ladipo or Drew Holiday. But it does feel like either of those two guys is someone who can put pressure on the rim and defenses in the half court would elevate their immediate ceilings. So if you don't care about the long term cost of the roster, that seems like an avenue worth exploring, because I think the ceilings on Oladipo and Drew Holiday, particularly in the playoffs, are definitely higher than Gordon Hayward. At this point, I think I agree with that. I just I want we brought up Turner and this is going to be a little bit of a diversion. But I think Turner's a really interesting piece in this offseason because I'm sure at some point we've had maybe recently there have been well, yeah, I think in conjunction with some of the Oladipo stuff, there was talk of like, well, you know, Turner might be something someone the Paciers are trying to move, and I have a hard time figuring out if that's actually accurate, or if it's that Turner is like the guy who comes up whenever you're trying to find, hey, you know who would really fit at center for Team X, whether it's like the Pelicans or the Celtics or the Warriors or whatever, it's always Miles Turner. It's just always like the guy that can defend the room and shoot threes. Yeah. I just I wonder if the reason he's in discussions or whispers or rumors or whatever it is is because he just like obviously would help so many teams, or if it's actually because Indiana wants to move him. Like half the time, I wonder why the Pacers aren't trying to move Sabonis instead. But I think that's just because I'm lower on Sabonis than most. But yeah, Turner's just a weird, weird figure in this offseason where he's he keeps getting brought up and I just don't know if there's any fire to that smoke. I'm curiously if Indiana is going to do anything, because I do feel like there's actually at least a small fire there. And like one of the red flags for me was when Victor Ladipo announced that he was staying out of the blah blah but coming back in like none of it was done through the team, which I feel like is bizarre, and that to me is probably more troubling than him asking to play for other teams in front of his teammates, although that of course is troubling there. I'm just like, this feels like maybe there is a fire, but I just don't know if they're going to try and put it out Right now. I could very easily see this team just standing pat leading into next season. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense because you're gonna have more teams potentially getting desperate and then maybe you know, again, like you said, al Depot's value is not going to get much lower than it is right now, so kind of hanging on and hoping, hoping you the fire if there is some, doesn't you know, burn the building down might might be the best bet. Drew Holiday we already talked about and we've mentioned the Celtics interest in him. That was also Perk Kevin O'Connor. Mark Sign reported that Atlanta Hawks are also interested in him. And I think the framework there and we've actually talked about on this podcast is number six and like one of your young wings and then can you get them to take back at least some money so you're not just obliterating a ton of your cap space in the process like Dwayne Deadman number six and Kevin Herder or Cam Reddish for Drew Holiday that I like the fit in Atlanta with Trey Young. I'm curious what you think or is there like and we've probably you know, talked about Drew Holiday trades and nauseum, but it is there like another team? Is it just Denver at this point? Everyone comes back to Denver, which I just feel like they don't have the asset higher power to get him without giving up Michael Porter Junior, which it doesn't feel like they're going to do. How do you feel about to fit with the Hawks and is there just like a team that you see that has the right mix of assets and motivation to go out and actually get him. Well, first of all, I was going to stay Denver, and I was going to say, as long as they don't have to give up Michael Porter Junior. So we can skip past that. But but I apologize for shooting all over your take before he got through. No, it's a take that needs to be shipped on at the So Atlanta makes sense. I think that's a reasonable package. But if you're Holiday and you would assume that David Griffin wants to kind of do right by him, I maybe that's a naive assumption. Are the Hawks going to be better than the Pelicans? You know, like our So if Holiday wants, you know, to play for a team that's gonna be a more certain winner or advance, you know, deeper in the playoffs or make the playoffs, I don't know if Atlanta is that team. Maybe maybe certainly Atlanta wants to be that team, which is which is why all that you know, they're they're broadcasting that the six pick is available, and they they've got all this cap space they're going to spend and they're going to be the used by every free agent as leverage to get more from his incumbent team, because hey, I might sign with Atlanta, like they're in a good position to get better and Holiday would help in that effort. I just don't know that that, you know, Atlanta with Holiday, I don't know that team is any better than New Orleans with Holiday, so we gotta leave. So I don't know. I mean, it makes sense for the Hawks, I guess, but Holiday, I don't know how psych t be on that one. But I mean Brooklyn, right it Like if if you are willing to give up Karros, Lavert and some draft capital, I think the Pelicans should do that. You got to throw on a fair amount more money because Lavert, I think is I think it's deal escalates. It's like sixteen eighteen and I don't know what it is, but it's something in that neighborhood. So you've got to add some money there. But like if if if the net believe Holidays the better fitting third star than Lavert is, which I think there's some logic to that, given Lavert is better on the ball than off and Holiday might actually you know, can give you things on both ends of the floor without having the ball. That makes some sense, and I think Brooklyn. If the question is who's got the assets and the will to do it, as much as Denver is an obvious one, I think Brooklyn is right up there too. I actually agree with you, not to sound shocked about that. I think Brooklyn Is probably has more motivation than Denver at this point, just because it doesn't seem like they want to give up Michael Porter Jr. And I don't see a pathway unless you're gonna like start trading like multiple distance first, and then again you run into the issue. I think I've said this to you where I can see situations where, you know what, if the Lakers were willing to give me a very lightly if unprotected twenty twenty seven first round pick, I bet on a downswing by that point. But at the same time, the turnover for front office heads like you're not gonna you're not going to be the one using that pick, right? Why are you making that trade? The team that I don't know if they would have the motivation, but I would be curious if this gets it done. If the Spurs were just like, hey, here's number eleven, Lonnie Walker and DeMar De Rosen and that's more money than New Orleans will be sending out, so maybe you could take back some money from them. But like here's those three, like you know, Dmard Rosen comes off the books after next year, like and we're going to try and you know what, we're not really rebuilding, We're actually gonna try and win. And all of a sudden, we have think about the defensive backcourt or defensive you know one through three. Yeah, Murray White and Holiday, like think about that. I'm good with that if you've got the wink wink deal that Holiday is gonna extend or resign because if that's for a rental, then I think I'd rather have Walker and and and what is it eleven? Right? I think I mean that that's and really like I think that's a factor in all of these and I think it's it's it's unrealistic to think that that you know, Holiday, if it gets down to you know, these things getting kind of real, like he is of course going to have conversations with these teams and like give them an indication or his representation will give an indication of if he's going to stick around or not. And so so like you know that, I just we should probably throw that in there just to sort of, you know, clarify the conversation a little bit. But yeah, if I got it, if I got assurances he's gonna stay, and then I think I'm probably good with that. Are you San Antonio? Are you doing that if you're New Orleans? Because I think the you know, you could probably rework it, like they could have LaMarcus Aldrige instead of De Rosen, who you could argue would actually work there. Yeah, but it's so short term and the Spurs are like they just have like too many I want to say they have too many wings, but like does Demard de Rosen has to become basically your sixth man in that scenario, and that's just so many guys with like I would say, non elite jumpers like Murray even White, and then de Rosen in Holiday is like I'll call him an average shooter. So I think de Rosen has to be involved in there. Look, maybe de Rosen to the Lakers is a real thing, so you could like that if that has legs, you could manipulate that to be a three team deal. But why if you're the Pelicans, would you want to help out the Lakers? Maybe maybe it's sutterf you. It's where you're actually gonna you think De Rosen's gonna hurt them, so you aren't gonna facilitate saboteur. No, I think. I think the Spurs backcourt slash wing situation is kind of like how we used to think the Magic had a front court log jam and then suddenly like they just don't have anybody that's good up there that they want to keep anymore. So like that's gonna solve itself. But if I'm the Pelicans and you give me the choice of Derozen and Aldridge, I'm taking Aldridge all day because of the fit and what he kind of allows you to maybe get away with with Zion Williamson in the front court defensively and spacing wise, mostly spacing wise. Aldridge isn't a great defender anymore, not that he ever was. But but yeah, that's if you're the Spurs. You But conversely, you gotta get off de Rosen because like she's like, what what are you going to use him for? Otherwise? Right? And I guess the other permutation would be like you do have Rudy Gay at Patty Mills, and so like you know, Gay plus Lonnie wall queer. Plus if you're moving, pick number eleven as an actual salary. I think that's almost four million around, So like that might actually get you there. That was quick math for me. But then you're still left with de Rosen on the roster and so like I feel like Drew Holiday, I would still like him there, but it becomes like this weird fit all of a sudden. So and no, it doesn't quite get you there. There have to be more salary involved. It looks like, yeah, so because Drew is making twenty seven next year, Oh no, it is, it is enough to get you there. So Rudy Gay, I'm the fly, I'll ask you about that really quick. What do you think about the rumor that the Lakers have shown interest in them? Let's let's twofold this. The Warriors might like Aldridge and the Lakers might like DeMar Derozen, Which of those I feel like very odd if questionable? If poor fits, do you actually like the best? And look, well, we'll re emphasize that this is the time of year where all these leaks are just gonna pall pour out. So if they've even shown like interest on the peripherals or however, loose. It is like this stuff is leaking out. So there are agendas, but those were two reports and they're just ones that don't necessarily make a ton of sense to me. So the Derosian thing, I don't I mean, I'm not a big DeRozan fan. I just I don't know. So I'm gonna and then I'm gonna flip around and say I think Derosen makes more sense on the Lakers than Aldridge on the Warriors. And a lot of that has to do with so the things you would give up from the Lakers to get de rosans or don't matter that much. You know, it's the green Kuzma whatever package and filler I guess. But if but for the war what are you giving up if you're the Warriors to get Aldridge? Is I mean? Is this is this Wiggins going to the Spurs? Is that? Like? How how are we? How are we doing this? Is because the the TPE is not useful because it's not even close to Aldrig's salary. So how so that's my question, Like it's I think the rumor deal has been derosen. And number eleven for Wiggins, oh sorry, Aldridge, A number of levin for Wiggins and number two I'm not doing that. I'm not doing it either. Like the Warriors are already light on wings, and this makes you look, Andrew Wiggins, that contract is not good, but this makes you even lighter on wings. Well, right, and I mean, maybe you're gonna get again. Let's let's talk about Patrick Williams again, or or you know, with Devin Vassel or one of those. Achorro is probably not going to slip that far. But if he did, I would be very interested. For the Warriors, you maybe get your wing back that way. But I just I mean, I guess Aldred spreads the floor, which lets you get away with Draymond Green, you know, and together with him up front. But again, like, yeah, Wiggins is unfortunately and like alarmingly very important to the Warriors, and that number two picket is very important to them too, So I'm so sorry important he is, though, like you said it, I mean it's like who's guarding I mean, Clay Thomas can't guard everybody. Maybe he can't guard anybody anymore. I don't know after the ACL So yeah, Wiggins matters, and Aldridge I just you know, in theory, it makes sense with some of the spacing and stuff, But I'm not willing to give up that package. If that's what it takes for the Warriors, I'm with you. And also, I don't look. I respect the Lakers never ending quest to surround Lebron with fewer shooters, but I actually don't hate the fit if you're rigidly staggering minutes because the half court offense was absolute junk when Lebron was off the floor last year. I think it was in the thirtieth percent tile and they were outscoring opponents, but they did that basically on the back of their defense, and they had some like Rondo no Lebron lineups that were really good on offense. If you're replacing the Rondo minutes with Damar de Rozen like that's I would argue that's an upgrade. Maybe not in the playoffs. Defensively, Rondo's going to do more stuff there. But and yes, Rondo's a better passer, but Derozen has been a very high end pick and role player for basically a half decade now, and if he's you know, running things and look you can do. I think what helps you have or be allowed to have some non shooters around Lebron is you could do more stuff with him than you can like a traditional wing or another guard. Like what Lebron is. The screener is not like a terrible idea. Yeah, people can just go under De Rosen, but he's just so good at manipulating defenders in the half court with his like change of pace that you could run pick and rolls all day with the two of them and you, or you could have Lebron spot up and do it with Anthony Davis. Where I think it's good enough. My one qualm would be if you're closing games, are you at a point where you could say, listen to Rosen, you're making twenty seven seven, but you're gonna be on the bench for those minutes, or you're at least committed to be like, right, we're not gonna play like Anthony Davis is gonna play center now. Because if de Rosen is starting with Lebron and Anthony Davis, can you can you afford to have I would say a fourth below average shooter, or because Lebron's right around average, I would say, like he Waxes and Waynes every season, So that would be my concern. But I actually don't hate it. No, I don't hate I mean, you took the words right out of my mouth. The question is, are you willing to take on a theoretically high end significant player that you might not have on the floor at the end of the games that matter? And the Lakers I intend to play more games that matter than you know, as many games that matter as anybody. So, like, that's a tough look if Derozen is on the bench. Davis at center does alleviate some of that. But but boy, you just you're on It's not a four on five thing because DeRozan can do so much with the ball and that sort of you know, gets you around the It's not like you're gonna station him in the corner where teams can ignore him. You have to involve him and stuff. But then you're kind of marginally so if so is your answer to keeping Derozen on the floor at the end of finals games, Well, he has the ball now instead of Lebron or a d Like I just, I mean, Lebron opens up more than almost anybody else. But I don't know if it just that's a tough that's a tough way to go. But again, like he does solve their second unit stuff. The problem is I just don't. He's certainly not paid like a second unit player, and I don't much doubt he'd be willing to accept a second unit role. And it doesn't make a lot of sense financially to pay someone what you would be paying him as as like essentially a backup, you know, playmaker or point guard, you know quotes around the point guard partner, and you are giving up equity. If Avery Radley opts out so like he's then you could assume that maybe he's gone. Now you've given up Danny Green, who people get frustrated with, but he's he's just very plug and play at both ends the floor. And look Kuzma like he's a better defender. The past two seasons he's been average, and he would look he was, he was close to he was. He played a lot of above average defense. I will say toward later in the year this season, And yes, he's coming up on an extension. But and he's not young in the scent. Look here, I am age thirty one saying at twenty six year old isn't necessarily young, but like you are giving up something to get de Rosen to me, like, yes, it's easy to make that deal. Like, are the Spurs giving you anything else in return? Too? So I don't know, I wouldn't make the deal. But if you told me one of those two was going to happen, I think the one that has the best chance of working out is by far DeRose into LA agree, strongly agree. Aaron Gordon been in I think the trade rumor mill since like he entered the league. Basically, the Magic are dangling Aaron Gordon at number fifteen, reportedly with the goal of moving up in the draft. Do you see any like fits for him there? And I do the one thing I'll just preface this with it really feels like Aaron Gordon's trade value is all over the place where some people kind of view his deal as an asset just because like he can do a lot of things across different positions. On defense, he did better passing in the half court this year, and look, you know, eighteen one next year, then drops to sixteen four the year after. But then they're just people are like, well, that's just an overpay for someone who is not who should really only be a play finisher on offense. Has been asked to do more, try to do more, can't do much more, So where do you fall on him? And is there any team that you could see like being interested in Aaron Gordon a number fifteen as a package to as a means of moving down I guess you would call it. I swear to god you're reading my notes because my first comment on Aaron Gordon is like a rhetorical question, which is what percentage of his career has he not been rumored, slash dangled, slash disgusting trades? Isn't more than ten percent? And it's like that feels about right, like he's just always been there and so and the second thing I have is he seems to be someone that everyone agrees will like, will fit almost anywhere, provided you can get him to play the way that you want him to, which is what you described. You be a defender, rebound, run, score and transition finish, don't dribble so much, and we don't need you to be a knockdown shooter. And then at the same time, everyone agrees he's not a needle mover. So it's like Aaron Gordon the paradox. We have been doing the same job for too long, I think. But so the best quote unquote best thing I could come up with if you're the Magic and you're moving up this this draft is the worst draft for this because I don't I don't see a lot of value or a team that would be interested or motivated to do it. Like, honestly, in the top ten, I hope you have one. So what I was thinking is you've got the Kings at twelve, and so maybe if if the Magic, this is going to be one of those like we're on the phone when the eleventh pick is coming in with the Kings and there's a guy at twelve. You know he's not making it to fifteen. You have to have him. Let's say it's Patrick Williams just because it's the Patrick Williams podcast. It won't be he'll be gone for it. But it's whoever it is. Is you say Gordon and fifteen for like Harrison Barnes and twelve or you know, you have to throw in more money or something like that. But if you just have to have twelve or whoever's at twelve, maybe that makes sense because I kind of like Gordon for the Kings as like a low usage defender finisher. I think he's better than Harrison Barnes at almost everything that you would care about from that position, But like, that's such a marginal move up that I mean, I just I don't know if that's worth it or either party would do it. Tell me you have something higher up in the draft that makes sense. I have a bunch of ones actually, so okay, I will tell you if they're good or not. Yeah, So Phoenix sitting at number ten Kelly Ubre junior and number ten for Aaron Gordon and number fifteen. Why is how much better is Aaron Gordon than Kellyubray on defense noticeably? Yeah, and needs the ball less on offense in theory, and also I think he fills two positions for you where you start him at the four next to eighton and look, Aaron Gordon shot thirty six point one percent on catching shoot threees after January first this year. I actually think he was terrible after the All Star break though, which I feel like happens every year. It's like, post January first, he's his split is great, but it actually kind of cratered towards the end of the very end of the season anyway, though, and then he could play back up five for you, and then he doesn't need the ball again in theory as much on offense, like you could You're not gonna use kellybrid Junior as a screener or just this play this huge. He's Kelly Brijuni is a play finisher, but he's just not in the way of like a combo big like Aaron Gordon can be used. And then you're you know I had mentioned this before, like maybe the guy that you want at number ten, because let's say Patrick Williams and Devin Vassell are off the board and so he wants to Deep Bay. He might still be there at number fifteen for all I know. At this point, Patrick Williams could be at number fifteen. I don't expect him to a ward drafting, right, he should not fall past New York at number eight, is my stance. I apologize to his career in advance, but yeah, so anyway, but that would be my justification for it. And like if if like that's not enough for yeah, I go back and forth because I'm like, Ubray's not going to be a long term piece for Orlando, Like they would have to really want the guy who's at number ten to give up anything else in this deal, Like you're not going to give up mo Bamba, nor does Phoenix need him? You're not. I don't know why Phoenix would want for Rukamino. You're not going to give up Folt and then the money just starts to get messy. I don't think you're gonna give up Chumo Kiki, Like, I don't think that's going to be a thing. So I think that would have to be the deal. But the fact that it you're like lackluster about it makes me think that maybe it's a good deal. Like you're kind of may Yeah, that's a good sign. I mean, it just would depend on Again, you get do you have to have this guy at ten? If you're Orlando, And then if the answer is yes, then I guess the marginal the difference in those in Gordon and Ubre is is worth it because like you know, you think of Ubre as a short timer, which he is because of his contract status. But you know, Gordon's not gonna Gordon's deal is fine. You can move it on if you need to, if you're Phoenix or you can, you know, start thinking about extensions and it's not going forever, and it's I think it's declining too. Maybe I have that wrong. You are correct with Gordon. Yeah, he goes from eighteen one to sixteen four. Yeah, super manageable. So so that's that's fine. Yeah, I know, I obvious you're better at this than I am, so I shouldn't be surprised that that's much better than my my bullshit king's trade, the other one I had, Like this would have to take place, you know, you agree to it, like wink wink, and then you move these picks as actual salary basically, but you would go Patty Mills and number eleven for Aaron Gordon and number fifteen. Mmm. So let's see. I think I don't know how much I like Patty. You know, I love Patty Mills, even though he's getting older. I guess he makes sense. I don't know how much sense he makes for Orlando. But it's all about the pick, right, that's the It's also like they need DJ Augustine can leave in free agency. They need a guard who can shoot, and like, if you play Patty Mills next to Mark el Folts, like that just works. I guess if you think that that Mills can still guard ones and twos, which I guess that's probably reasonable to say, Yeah, no, that that's okay with me. It feels a little because Folts is big enough that he could get you too. Yeah, you know, that's that's fine. I think it just kind of throws me because Mills is so much further on in his career and it seems like Orlando should be skewing younger. But I guess that's why you're getting the eleventh pick. So that's pretty good too, and right, But you're also, like in most of these deals, like unless you're trading really high up, I don't know you're if you're making this deal with necessarily the thought of a rebuild, like you're giving up Iron Gordon, you're not looking to get just back up pick. But I am about to try and move higher up the draft board. So so let's hear it all right, So you're Minnesota, you have you have number one. It does seem like they're in love with LaMelo ball, But LaMelo ball would also make a ton of sense for Orlando if they're looking to take the really big, long term swing. You have Aaron Gordon, you have number fifteen, and there's Chibiokiki, and then I would say that would be the deal. Or maybe you replace the ladder with a future pick. Does that interest you? It all off your Minnesota or is it at this point? No, I'd rather have LaMelo Ball. I'd rather have number one. I mean, even if I'm not taking Ball, I'm going to use I can. I think I can do better with that pick than Gordon fifteen. And like, if you're I don't know what else, you definitely have to give me an additional future first and probably not protect it for me to give up on number one overall, even in a bad draft like I just and even if they have no intention of taking, it's just there's there's I have to believe number one's worth more than that. Okay, So how about number two? You're the Warriors, Aaron Gordon and you can essentially take your pick here. I'm not saying Orlando would let you, but like these are there are so many different permutations. You have Aaron Gordon, number fifteen, and then you can go Terrence Ross, you can go Evan Fournier if he opts in, you can go Mark el Foltz. Even so Aaron Gordon number fifteen and one of those other three players for Andrew Wiggins and number two. See, I think if if the Warriors want Gordon. I think they do the step up trade, you know, give the do the TP eat in Minnesota or whatever for James Johnson or some other expiring and that that's how you go get Gordon. But what are you giving up in that deal for Gordon? Yeah, you gotta give up a future pick or something not Minnesota's. I just to me, like, it's not that different than than number one, and really like in a lot of ways the Warriors. This is hard to articulate, but this number two pick I think should have more value to the Warriors than number one does to the Wolves, just because of how urgently the Warriors need someone to sort of give them. You know, if the Wolves watched this, they still have towns, right and like that, you know, so they got that that bridge or that guy who's their franchise. The Warriors, I think I think they should use the pick. I think they should use it on James Wiseman. I feel extremely uneasy saying that. I just think that in the faintest of scenarios, call it like a twenty percent, ten percent, twenty percent chance Wiseman becomes a really really good two way big guy. So if I'm golden, say I just I still need more, I think, and and I don't know this is a little different than the Wolves because I don't know how much better the offers are will be for number two out there. But I just think it matters so much to the Warriors to get a superstar or someone with superstar potential at with this pick that like, and Gordon is basically the opposite of that. He's just such a steady thing. And fifteen you're not getting. You assume you're not getting anything anybody like that of fifteen. So I don't know, it's not quite enough for me. Here's my final one. So you have the Wizards sitting at number nine, so you go number nine, and it's now it's your trading. Number nine is an actual salary, and then it's a poopoo platter basically of other salaries where Ish Smith could help. If d Geograstine leaves in Orlando, Jerome Robinson and Troy Brown Junior for Aaron Gordon at number fifteen, so you're making the selection at nine for whoever Orlando wants, and then you're sending him on as part of the deal. Yeah, okay, mmm, if I'm the if you know, that's another one. That that's pretty good. I think that's that's I kind of I think I might like that one the best. I think I might like it less for the magic. Just I think you can talk to yourself into Hey, Troy Brown and Is Smith, even though we Schmith's on an expired you like, those are interesting for the magic, and maybe they're inclined to give Jerome Robinson more run like the Wizards did toward the end of last year. You are look, I will say, technically Robinson and Brown Troy Brown are like recent first round picks, and so you could talk to yourself into that way. But there is an element of like, this does feel like a poop poop platter. It's I like Brown actually a fair amount, but I think that would to me. That's like, so if if I think, if the Wizards are there at nine and akong Wu was on the board still it just makes way too much sense for them to just take him and keep him. But if if he's gone, then I'm not sure, you know, assuming they're gonna gonna go for a center, which is just my assumption, then then then yeah, I think that makes a lot more sense for the Wizards. But yeah, it's it's a tough cell when it's like it's Brown and Robinson are we're very recently first rounders, and therefore how value you know, the value that you would assign to a first rounder taken in that slot when we actually know kind of especially Robinson like what he is now. Right. Look, I know you have to go put a child to bed. I appreciate you given me so much of your time over an hour. Once more, this was fun. You know, I'm going to be pesturing you probably incredibly soon for anyone who's not following Grant on Twitter at GT Underscore Hughes. The next time we talk, I believe I don't know if things will settled down, but like we will have passed the when you're we'll talk before them, but when you're actually on the podcast, I believe we'll have passed the transaction. Tumult cool. I think we're gonna you know, we're gonna have to collect ourselves after that because it's gonna be nuts, which is good, which is a good thing. But thank you once again for coming on and I will talk to you soon. It's always pleasure, Grant, Thanks Dan, Welcome back to the Hardwood Knox Podcast. Salmon Ali. If you guys are not following him on Twitter, please do so now at Salmon Alie at s A L M A n A l I NBA. He covers the Houston Rockets for ESPN ninety seven point five. He has his own newsletter that you need to check out and subscribe to immediately called State of the Rockets. Go to State of the Rockets dot substack dot com, or just if you follow him on Twitter, the link is right in his bio. He's also a fellow Blue Wire podcaster. He hosts the Red Nation Hoops podcast, which covers you guessed it, the Houston Rockets. So who better to bring in to talk about the absolute circus going on in Houston right now? Then Salmon? And so, how are you doing? And I, Sammon, I have a headache? Is it my yelling at you already? No? It's just what a day? What a forty eight hours? Like? It does not get any more crazy than that. You start the morning off at like seven am Central Time with this bomb showed. Report from Tim McMann and Adrian Wodronowski that the James Harden and Russell Westbrook may be unhappy and are looking to management for some changes, and then and then you get to the afternoon and Kendrick Perkins is on the jump talking about how James Harden has it entered a phone call from management or ownership in like two weeks. And then you get to I guess this was it seven pm Central time at that At that point, Russell Westbrook's already telling the media I'm out, like I want out, And then like by nine pm, it's already all wrapped up. The day's already wrapped up. Russell Westbrook's like drinking wine on Instagram. His wife is in is video videotaping it, and he's just like happy birthday, Like that's it, like, and that's the day. That's the day that that's what you had to go through if you're a Rockets fan for twelve hours, just that insane roller coaster of like, Oh, it looks like James Hart and Russell Westbrook are unhappy. Oh it looks like this situation maybe even worse than unhappy. Oh, it looks like Russell Westbrook goes doesn't want to be here and here we are. Look, first of all, the thing that I found maybe the best, because it's the most awkward, were was the Rockets Twitter account wishing Russia happy birthday. Oh that was so a scheduled tweet, right, And you know those those those guys had no choice, Like they knew that was coming, Like they knew that was gonna be tweeted in the morning. And what do you do, Like do you do you not wish him a happy birthday? If you just pretend like you're not on the team, Like I it's such a tough position to be in. And I know the guy who runs that account, and I feel I feel really bad for him. Like he knew he was gonna be a ratio this morning. He knew it. Yeah, but you have, like he said, you have to do it. That's why social media members in sports, I mean everywhere. Social media is a really hard job. But that's particularly difficult. So there's so many angles to tackle from this. I'm gonna start here, is did was there writings on? Was there writing on the wall throughout the season that the Rockets could combust to this extent where we're talking about. Okay, it's not just Mike D'Antoni leaving, but Darryl Mori not only left, but he took another job a week after he said he was going to take a year off to spend more time with his family. And now we're talking about not just a new head coach in Steven Silas, not just a new general manager with Raphael Stone. Like now Russell Westbrook wants out and James Harden may be unhappy, but he also may be locked in getting ready for next season two. I don't that stuff is always just weird. And my follow up just to that is whether or not you were there was writing on the walls? Who's to blame? Like who's most at fault for all for all of this getting to this point where Westbrook is unhappy. I tilt towards just as a spoiler, were alert probably Russell Westbrook himself or James Harden because they so badly wanted to play together. Like why is it if he if Rush really wants to leave to go be the floor general somewhere else? Like how is this not like something that you saw coming? You have you not watched James Harden since he left Oklahoma City in twenty twelve, like you were never going to be the number one option. There's a lot to unpack there, So let's just start with the stay of the organization. Just in general, or you get to the team side. So I mean you called it when I was on your podcast maybe like what a few months ago, and where you asked me whether Daryl was gonna go away or Mike D'Antoni, and I just, organizationally, I just didn't think things were going to change. I thought they would ring Mike D'Antoni back, and I thought bringing Darryl morri back would obviously if he was a smart play. And apparently ownership just disagrees with me because Daryl Morey walks away within two weeks he's able to be convinced to go to another title contender across the conference, like that is just like such a black guy for the franchise. The fact that he's able in two weeks, able to be talked out of seemingly a gap year to go back right into the think of things into a front office that's not exactly shy on voices in the Philadelphia seventy six ers. I mean, they got like they have a huge, huge like General Mennership, like Chip Chain. It's insane that the amount of people to have in that in that room making decisions for them right now. And the fact that Daryl was able to be swayed to that, uh, and just within this span of two weeks is incredible. And I I really think when you're talking about like when did the bottom fall out, I think that's probably when when Daryl when Mike D'Antoni said he I'm done, like when he walked away, and I think that that really stunned Daryl. Like I really do believe Daryl's plan was to bring Mike D'Antoni back, like I think I think, I mean, he knew, like the odds that you were going to get a better coach than him, I mean, he's all about the numbers, right, Like the odds that you were going to upgrade at that position from D'Antoni were pretty slim, right. It's very hard to find a coach of his caliber. And I'm sure his number one priority was to bring him back. And I think when he came to them on that flight heading out of Orlando that and told them that he, you know, I'm not going to return, I think that's stunned him. In fact, in Kelly Echo of the Athletic in his reporting, it actually said that Daryl Morey was taken aback from that and apparently he had been thinking about stepping away from the organization from for about a month up until that point. So you gotta figure that that was probably you know, what broke the camel's back there, right like it is. It seems like the moment Mike D'Antoni stepped away, Darryl was like, yeah, this is just an untenable situation, especially when you talk about the ownership ownership situation, right, like the fallout with the stuff in China is just insane and right when you like when you talk about when that happened, like when when Darrow tweeted, you know, support for the Hong Kong protesters, like literally forty five minutes later, Tilman comes out and throws him under the bus at a tweet, Like you gotta figure that stings a little bit, right because previously he was under an ownership that had his back one hundred percent on all matters, right and Leslie Alexander and sure he was he was in the shadows kind of guy, whereas Tilman Fritida is very much in front of the camera every Tuesday for his weekly interview, right like it is. It's it's a different kind of owner, but that you definitely expected that kind of support. You didn't expect him to throw him under the bus like that within the within an hour, Like, yeah, I understand your business partners are blowing up your phones and telling you like like you gotta you gotta have you gotta have him delete this tweet. But the fact that you completely reputed repudiate yourself from him is just it's kind of disgusting to be frank, I mean it is. I mean, first of all, the cause that he was talking about wasn't a bad cause. Sure puts you in an awkward position because it's something that you know, if you're gonna if you're gonna work with China here in the US, you just don't talk about that kind of stuff. But it's not like he's wrong. He was wrong, Like he was completely in his right to tweet something like that. And you know, maybe maybe you know, you want to you want to stake a step back a little bit reevaluate what he said. But there's a better way to go about it. Maybe your release, a press release, how about that, Like, how about you be a little bit more professional? You say, you know, the Rockets aren't a political organization. We respect they're all more is believed to say what he wants to say. That's what Adam Silver said, right. Adam Silver came out and said exactly that. And the fact that Tilman Hander handled it the way he did and that nobody in the NBA had his back except from Sayujeri was it was a little bit puzzling. And I do think like that at that point, that's when Darryl was like, you know, we haven't we haven't spend in the luxury attacks in two years now, and then this China thing happens and my ownership seems to not completely have my back here. I know I'm really good at my job. I did There's you know, I have ten years of evidence to prove that I'm really good at my job. I don't need this. I can go I can leave the NBA and go make millions of dollars elsewhere, because I'm that kind of dude. So I do think I do believe him when he said he was going to take a gap here, But the fact that ownership did not even try to keep him, Like if it took two weeks for the Sixers to persuade Daryl Morey to go to go to Philly, you gotta figure that he could have been talked out of retirement. Right, you gotta figure that that that that was that was basically on the table for you, and that reflects poorly on ownership. It also reflects poorly on ownership that they just let D'Antoni walk. And going back going to the team side of things, I think, you know, these two things are directly related. Like listen, James Harden and Mike D'Antoni and Darryl Morey all had a really close working relationship. That was a really good, synergetic, you know, synergetic group there, Like they were all in close contact all the time. You know, Daryl was the guy who bet on James Harden, right, Like when a lot of people thought he was crazy for betting on this twenty three year old sixth May out of the year candidate. He put all of his trade trade assets on the table for James Harden, which at the time wasn't that much when you see some of the trade hauls you see today, but in retrospect, I mean in the moment, it definitely was a lot that Daryl was giving up there, and you know he bet on him. He gave him multiple extension max you know max extensions. He believed in him. He built, he built rosters around and that perfectly complimented his skill sets. And the fact that he walked away, and that the coach that perfectly designed an offense just to form, you know, around you. The fact that that guy walks away, I mean, I think that really shook Harden to his score. Something I speculated upon when when Daryl Morey stepped away on a podcast a couple of weeks ago, I was like, how does James Harden fuel right now? Right? Like? You got a fear that's that's the kind of thing that shakes you up here, and you know, I it appears that Russell Westbrook was already upset by not only the style of playing the Rockets ran, but I guess some culture slash accountability issues. And you can go ahead and read Kelly Eco same Aimic and uh and Sean strani As an article on that. They wrote a huge giant piece on it where pretty much everybody on the team was unhappy. Everyone from James Hardened to Daniel House wasn't to Mari Carol and I think was it was Terrence Jones unhappy too, Yeah, Ida, I think I think Trevor Reza was unhappy. I'm like, dude, you're not even on the team. You're not even on the team. You're and you're out here complaining. Daniel House, by the way, has absolutely no ground to complain after what happened in the bubble, Like that's such a bad look that he came out and it's like, you know what, I don't like my role. I need more touches, Like what what? Uh? Just just a complete and utter dumpster fire. And it makes a lot of sense that you know, those two would be shook to the core a little bit. And listen, like I think I think Russ is going to be gone by this time next month, Like, I don't think that's gonna be I don't think that's a surprise. I don't think that's a hot take. Like I think, you know, superstars in this day and age, doesn't really matter what your contract length is. Once once you tell ownership or once you tell the media you want out, you're going to get out. That's just the way it is. That you're like Anthony Davis showed us that there really is no contract length that makes you a secure asset, right, So it is it's insane, it's it's I'm still processing all this. I think, I think this is a little bit therapeutic for me. I think I talked for like six minutes there and I'm still like, I haven't even gone on my podcast yet. It's just it's just a lot. It's just a lot happening in forty eight hours. He's so, here's my thing, is what was I understand the concern from James harn and Russell rust book because this always felt like a combustible situation, but they had a hand in it, and look, I'll blame him, tell them Fertita first and foremost, because there's no way you evaded the luxury tax, and each of the past three seasons since you've owned the team by flukey circumstances, especially over the past two when it was just like moves were made to get under them basically. So I kind of thought at first that maybe this report before Sharania dropped, that rust wanted out, and maybe it still could be. I mean, this would be hell of the leverage play was was aimed to put pressure on the organization, particularly after the departures of Daryl Moory and Mike D'Antoni, to do something to spend like you have to go into the tax this year, you could maybe access the non tax players mid level or or at least spend the mini mid level, like spend this summer. I thought it was that type of a level play, but you have the Shrannie report. Here's where things are just tough for me to understand. Is one, I know superstars don't think this way if you're James Harden, but what did you think this team was gonna be able to do after they gave up a trillion picks and swaps plus Chris Paul for Russell Westbrook and bigger more than that? For me, is Russell Westbrook, like, what did he think this fit was going to be that he regrets it after one year. I understand that playing alongside James Harden, well, it could be good for complimentary players numbers, there's a lot of standing around. But for Russ in particular, he played I would argue the best basketball of his career from like middle point of the season, basically when Clint Capella got injured and that's when they first decided to ditch the traditional center before they even traded him through the stoppage, and then when he came back, he had coronavirus. He was dealing with that with that injury, So I get that he wasn't as good and so I'm just confused as to why he's so unhappy there, unless maybe the franchise communicated that that's not how they're going to play, which would be bonkers given how well it worked out for him. And so before even get into like these potential destinations, how hard it is to move him with one hundred and thirty two point six million left on the three years remaining on his deal, Like I don't understand, particularly from him, like this revelation that he doesn't necessarily like the fit. What did you think was going to happen when you orchestrated this move to Houston? I mean, it was a bad trade from the onset, Like you sold low on Chris point You sold at the lowest point in Chris Paul's career like that, that's just that's terrible asset management, Like beyond the basketball standpoint, you sold on a star player at the lowest point in their career, and like that was a year he was coming off of an have a hamster injury. There was reasonable belief to to you know, think that he would bounce back. I thought he was going to bounce back, Like I was telling people to take to slam. Houston's over because I just thought Chris Paul was going to be awesome next year. And and and they just apparently everybody in that front office wasn't fully convinced. And yeah, James Harten absolutely has blood on his hands for helping orchestrate this, right, Like he's not blame this at all, Like he like, there was definitely something that happened in Game six of that Warrior series. After Game six, there was some sort of blow up, something happened in the locker room. Nobody has been able to fully ascertain what exactly happened. There was some sort of confrontation between those two, that's all we know, right, and after that their relationship just fractured. And apparently those guys just never tried to repair it. Like that's just strange to me. You put all your chips on the table for christ Paul. It was a healthy relationship up until that point, very fruitful for you on the basketball court, almost won an NBA championship if not for a hamstering injury and the fact that you didn't try repairing that relationship right away. Hard nabsolutely as blood on his hands for that trade. And yeah, it was. It was just it was a bad trade. It was I mean, like like Chris Paul In my opinion, was clearly the better p player at that point, on top of you're trading two first round picks and two pick swaps out like five years in the future. That, by the way, it should have been everyone's first hint that maybe Darryl Morey didn't have all all his feet in the water right like he It was definitely a show of the hand there, but it was. It was insane. It was a ludicrous trade. But at that point you have to buy in, right like like you can't. You can't, you know, wallow in that it's those picks are some costs. You can't. You don't have a time machine to go back and fix that. You have to make this relationship work because listen, we're gonna talk about trades here in a minute. I'm not sure the Rockets can get into the star player back right, like you know, they can do some interesting, very interesting things, right and we'll talk about that in a minute, but I don't think they can get like a star caliber player back like a bona fide top twenty level player back from this kind of a trade. And if you're not going to get that level of player back, well, you you try to make this work, right, Like the Rockets straight to Clint Capella to accommodate Russ and play micro ball, and you got to figure that that was going to be their plan going into next season. And the fact that you know, like they couldn't make it work for a season two like like like, it's not even like you guys, you guys tried it for two years, didn't work out. You guys tried it for one year and you lost in the second round to the eventual NBA champions. Granted it was kind of a flame out, but you did lose to the NBA Champions, right, So you can't try you can't sell yourself on year two for that like that. That's that's kind of ridiculous to me. Yeah, and I'm with you there. And so before my actual last question would be before we're getting into like the nitty gritty of potentially moving Russ, is I guess you're like, you don't think there's a strong chance that they do still try to salvage this relationship I guess that's or fit. And then I don't know if maybe their hand could be forced at the market for Russ just isn't robust at all or boarding on not existent, and then what is Do you think that this is now a strain on Harden and Westbrook's relationship because it definitely doesn't seem like there's this there's that level of animosity that existed between Westbrook and Harden, but you could kind of sense them like there were issues throughout the season. I think it was reported where they graded on each other a little bit. And for Russ to want to pull the rip chord after one year, like I would think that there has to be at least, you know, maybe they're still cool, but there has to be like a pretty strong like difference of opinions, clashing of wills going on there for it to happen this soon where they don't even want to give it a year or two together. Oh, this was definitely moving back in with your college roommate kind of situation, right, like like hey, we can split the rent, like like you can live on that side, I'll live on this side. Listen, we're good friends. We can work this out. It's not gonna it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be just like college. And it guess what, it's never like college. It's ever the same. And I'm pretty sure that that's the conclusion the Rockets came to. I mean, James Harden and Russell Westwok rather and I think they're still close friends. I saw James Harden just wished Russell Westwok a happy birth day to day. I don't I don't think that was out of you know, anger hatred. I think those guys actually genuinely like each other. I just think they realized this is not a good on court marriage, which anybody could have told you when this trade was first incepted, Like it was just it was such a non Daryl Morey move when they first made it. I cannot shake this idea that Daryl Morey was not the strongest voice in the room well, and that it's kind of the moment when I felt like he wasn't long for Houston, Like that was the one where I don't like, no one came out and said it, but you knew it wasn't a Darren Morriy trade. Now, look, I'm not trying to fully absolve him, like he gave the Eric Gordon extension. I don't think he was forced to do that one. It would be really funny if he was just trying to sabotage the Rockets future, knowing that he was going to leave anyway. But for the moment that he treated not Russell Westbrook as the best player in that trade, but as the appreciably best play in that trade, Like it kind of just felt like his hand was off the wheel there, and the Rockets they leaned even further into it because they treated Robert Covington as the most valuable player in that Clint Capella four team trade too. So there's all those kinds of problems there, And now you get into the simple matter of Okay, look, you can't consider what it costs to get Russell Westbrook to move him, because you're not gonna net that value in return. If the Sun costs, you have to get it as a Sun cost, right, And but like, where do you see like any potential fits for him? And like, look, there are teams like you could come up and they'll send just like a buffet of contracts to Houston, But like, is there any team that you could see maybe even given up a little value or sending helpful players to Houston in order to take on Westbrook. And again, so this is what I'll say before I throw you the talking stick, is Russell Westbrook is still really good. I would call him a fringe All NBA player at this point. The problem is it's not the money per se, but it's the fact that he's not easy to fit in any situation as he's just proven and so you can't. It feels like his perfect teammate was probably Paul George, where it's like someone who is probably the better player than him, but at the same time, he doesn't want to dominate the ball on offense as much, and so that kind of seems like where he needs to be, and like that's a very specific fit. And if you're not going to find him that co star, then he just needs to be somewhere where the entire ecosystem is built around him. And that's what makes him such a complicated, if damaging player. Went combined with again the one hundred and thirty two point six million dollars he's old over the next three years, he is so much like Allen Iverson's not even funny, Like from everything from the cold following too. You have to construct this very specific archetype of a team to make it work and be successful in the playoffs. Like it is down to a t. He is modern day Allen Iverson and modern day Allen Iverson even in you know the mid two thousands wasn't netting a lot of assets. I mean it nets you Chauncey Bill looks at one point, right, And that's what if you're the Rockets, you have to try to hope for, right, if you have to try to hope for like to get at least some positive you know, assets back, right, And I think if you're Houston, the kind of trade you have to construct is one A. You cannot trade any more first round fix. First of all, you don't have that many to trade. Second of all, like you don't have any firm commitment beyond this season from James Harden, so it is is just not worth it to take that kind of a risk. Second of all, you cannot take a cumbersome contract that you cannot flip in at this point next season or at this point in it's offseason. Right, you have to be able to get whatever contracts you can get that are immovable, that are liquid right, And I think you know, you can construct trades in that ilk. But here's the thing. You're not going to trade into a title contender, which means you're not going to get many first round ficks back, right, because tadle contenders are only trading for a player like Westbrook if they're going to give up first round picks, and the Rockets just aren't going to get that back to runs. Uh. And I don't think there's a team out there that's just a Westbrook away from a championship. Sorry, Like I just I just I don't. Uh. And I think at that point, you're you're you're the pool of teams you're shopping with just gets so narrow. Uh. You know there are teams out there, like as you said, Rustbrook, Rushbrook is really good. And here's the thing. When you're a team in NBA pregatory like the Charlotte Hornet's, you are just starving, starving for relevance. You are starving to taste the playoffs. You haven't taste the playoffs in years, right, And it is it's it's you're you get to that point where it's like I just want to get make the ploffs. Like listen, I've talked to those fans, those like fans like that just want to be good, Like they just want to be good that they don't care if if there's not like a clear rebuilding trajectory there. They understand that they're a small market team. They just want to be good. They just want a team that they get root for and have fun with. And I think, you know, that's the kind of that's the kind of trade you're looking at. You're looking at teams like that, like the Troy like you know, I mean, I think the Knicks are probably gonna try to be more patient, but if you can, you know, try to get the Knicks on the phone right Like, like those kinds of teams are are are definitely the teams drive to deal with the pacers, you know, like teams like that are the ones you you deal with this kind of situation. And like Westbrook's not gonna get you, you know, to a fourth or fifth seed in your conference, but he'll get you to the eight seed, and the eight seed is really fun. And he'll he'll sell tickets when team when people can eventually buy tickets, I'm not sure when that's gonna be. But oh wait, wait, you can buy tickets this year, right, I think it's only like like partial seeding, right, Dan, you're there, Sorry, I was on mute while you were talking. Uh, the Knicks of the Nets, the Lakers clubs like teams like that. I know it won't even have fans, but there are certain markets that I believe we're planning to have partial capacity, particularly in the suites. I believe, right, Okay, Yeah, so so I guess like that's your best hope, right, like like to find a fan base, to find an organization that is just desperate for relevance. The Magic, right, the Magic are definitely a prototypical type team for like this. And I don't think, like you know, people keep throwing out the Clippers. I don't think the Clippers are really that interested. Like I it sounds to me like there is a very clear side that's leaking this. And uh, you know, I just I just don't see them as a Russell Westbrook away from a championship. And you definitely do not move Paul George even if the Rockets agree to give up first round picks. It's just it clearly benefits one team and one team only. Yeah, it's a limited pool of teams. But I think if you're in Houston, the kind of trade you want is you want positive assets, positive contracts. Rather you're not You're probably not gonna get first round picks back, but if you can, that's great. Like if you can get like one first round pickback, that's great, But more than likely you're looking for on tracks that you can move or expire in a year. And the kind of trade that I really like. It's been talked about a bunch, but a straight Blake Griffin for Russell Westbrook swap with Detroit makes a lot of sense, right, Like, Like, first of all, like Blake difference contract a year is going to be super attractive. It's a bunch of expiring money, and the it matches up with Russ, right Like, it's actually five billion dollars steaper than Russ per year, And like, if you want to pivot to a rebuild, it's very easy to pivot to a rebuild. Blake Griffen's a nice talent. Bet he fits a lot cleaner next to James Harden, And you know it's the kind of thing where like, okay, now you can like try and salvage this relationship with James Harden We're like, Okay, we can be a really fun and good and scrappy team next year. Maybe we can still be a four seed in the Western Conference, and maybe that's enough to maybe convince James Harden to write out his contract. Who knows, but like, that's the kind of trade if you're Houston that you know one that you're able to quickly pivot into a rebuild with a team I thought about and I don't know that I absolutely love the fit, but knowing that they have very few trade assets and might be in the market for a third star was actually the Lakers, And I'm wondering, if you know you go the route. I think they need help, Like they need McGee and Avery Bradley to opt in, and so the deal would be there's probably other teams involved, maybe just because this is six for one. We would have to be Danny Green, Avery Bradley and McGee would have to opt in. Quinn Cook, you have to guarantee his salary, Kyle Kuzma and then number twenty eight like and you have to move him as an actual salary. My issue with that is, look, there's the fit issues for sure. I think Westbrook obviously gives you someone who can run the offense when Lebron is off the court, and Los Angeles half court offense ranked in the thirtieth percentile last year when Lebron was off the floor. Now, you don't want to spend one hundred and thirty two six point one hundred thirty two point six million dollars over the next three years to necessarily fill that void. But he is star pa Hour and you can do different things with Lebron that you can't necessarily do with Harden. Like you know, you can run screen and rolls with Lebron if you really want to use them as an like it makes shift Anthony Davis sometimes when it's just Lebron and Russ on the court. So I don't I don't hold on before you finish this, believe this yourself, Like are you trying to sell yourself on this or do you actually believe that the Lakers would be interested in No? No, I don't believe. I'm just curious. And then so in that type of deal, here's where I think it goes off the rails. Is that Kuzma at number twenty eight. I think those are like assets that you don't want to give up in a deal for Westbrook's contract. And so if you're Houston, if that's a deal on the table, one, does it interest you enough to say, hey, we'll give you either our twenty twenty two pick protected or it can be a pick swap, or you just like, you know what, We're not giving up any type of asset in a Westbrook a Westbrook trade. And if you're not, I think that limits the pool even further because maybe there is a contender that's like willing to do or fringe contender willing to do something like this. But like if if they want to get because Danny Green and Avery Bradley are players that could actually help the Rockets, So if you want to get back guys who can maybe help you pip into a rebuild because their contracts are short, but they can also help you win around James Harden next season. I'm wondering if there would be like some wiggle room from Houston there to be like, yeah, we will throw our twenty twenty two pick in play, and obviously putting protections on it makes more sense than a pick swat, because if you do end up trading James Harden, you're not going to be good ahead of that twenty and twenty two draft. So the kind of situation where I do expect them to where I could see them, you know, trading a first round pick is if they get like three or four good players back were Western, which is kind of deal you're scrimbing, right, because then you can trade at least two of those players for first round picks in the future if you, if need, be right at the deadline next season, right like that, that's always a very popular time for teams trying to tear off the cupboards to you know, to get to net first round picks. Like I think that's the kind of deal you're talking about. But I still, like, I don't think that Houston is willing to give up forrest Trump picks. I really they don't, especially after the Robert Covington trade. Like not only did they trade first round picks in the rust Book trade, Like I mean, they traded first round picks in the Covnent trade. So it's one of those things where like I just think that they want to restop the cupboard, and like I think I don't think they're gonna, you know, go as far as you know, we want to get back all the value we lost and that Crispond trade and get you know, first four first round picks. I don't think that they're that delusional, right. I think they're willing to view that as a sun cost. But I think they want some value back, right. I think they want like some good contracts back. If they can get a first round pickback, that'd be great. But I don't think they're expecting it. You know, it's it's it's it's just that kind of situation. I think more than likely, I think they're You're, the trades you're looking at are like probably breaking up that Westbrook contract into pieces of good players that you can flip at the deadline. Like I think that's probably the most likely situation because it does make Houston a good team, and it's it kind of keeps you, you know, fluid for rebuilding. I think what hurts them right now is that you have Drew Holliday and Chris Paul and play at the same time, and so there are teams that, you know, yeah, maybe they'd be interested in getting someone by giving up fewer assets, but because those are two good players and Chris Paul is the superior player and they're both on shorter term contracts. Like, I think that also hurts the rocketist pursuit, where you're almost limited exclusively to like those teams that are content to try and chase the seven or eight seeds, and like I think Charlotte, Detroit, New York gonna be the ones that come up the most. I know some people floated around Sacramento. I think that would be an absolutely terrible fit with Daron Fox, but they are a team that has tried, you know, weird things in the past. But it definitely hurts I think their search to find any team just willing to take on Westbrook's money, given that Drew Holliday and Chris Paul are just floating around out there, and you know, maybe Orlando is like, you know, can we get rid of some of this salary that we don't necessarily want to send it to Houston? But then you're even looking at that and it's like, well, four Jay ops in, Like does Fourie and Aaron Gordon for Russell Westbrook make them better? And are is Houston willing to take back Alfre Rukominu in that deal to give Orlando just some a little bit more long term cap relief? Like why would you have Westbrook. If marked alf Foltz is there, does he need to be a part of this deal? Is faults and even Fournier plus another salary? Like, does that make sense for either side? I would say, like looking scouring the league, which I've tried to do for a Westbrook trade, I don't even know most of the teams that I think will end up training for him, probably shouldn't. I would be more I would actually be more bored with the Lakers or the Clippers rolling the dice on Westbrook than a Charlotte or Detroit or New York, just because they're so far away from where they need to be if you're going to acquire Westbrook. However, I think that's the type of team that ends up acquiring him, and I would peg it as like I could maybe rattle off four or five teams that are in that situation. I think I just named him Charlotte, Detroit, New York, and Orlando seems to be okay with being in the middle too. Yeah, And what really really sucks if you're Houston is you kind of shot yourself in the foot here by being such a smart smartphone office and getting your i's hired on other teams like we've seen slowly over the past four or five years, the smartification of NBA front offices. You're seeing less than less dumb teams willing to sniff on Westbrook right now. Like like like the Sacramento is smart now, they got Monty McNair running the ship. The Timberwolves are smart now, like Garrison Roses bringing the ship right, Like like the Rockets cut their guys hired at other places and are therefore hurting themselves in this trade right like it's it's it's it is just a bit of irony there. Yeah, I mean, like I do think it's gonna be a small market team. I agree. I think it's gonna be a probably a small market team that's been desperate for contender ship into the playoffs for a while. And I think I think, you know, those fans are kind of crazy for it, man, Like, like listen, you and I might not like it right because we're because we're like so dead set. Okay, how do you get from this to a title contender? But a lot of a lot of fans aren't like thinking that way. It's like, okay, how do we get from this to the playoffs? Like I like I've been there, man, like, like like rooting for a team that's middle of the pack, not making the playoffs year after year after year. It sucks. It sucks. And at some point it's like, just give me one star, give me one star that I can group for it, that I can take my kids to the game with. Right, like it's it's it gets to that point, and yeah, it's it'll be fascinating, It will be fascinating, but I will the most interesting thing to me is going to be the returns Houston gets back. If that's one you know, lump sum kind of player like Griffin, where you know, like you're trying to sell Harden or maybe you try to acquire a bunch of different pieces. This is very much it's very similar to that Lebron Kyrie situation in Cleveland. Like you you remember that, like where Lebron was in his final year in Cleveland and Kyrie demanded a trade, and you know, like you were trying, you were trying that delicate balancing act of trying to appease Lebron without sacrificing your future. Right, it's gotta look at this trade. This deal can only end in just some wacky four team trade. It needs to be something just bonkers, like Al Horford going to Cleveland, Kevin Love going to Houston, Blake Griffin going to Philly, russ ending up in Detroit, like some stuff like that. I feel like that's what this entire situation deserves. Is that just type of mind melting outcome. Oh, it's totally on the table too, because there's just a bunch of teams that are angsty right now, like this this trade. Like first of all, this off season in general, if it wasn't a month long, it was going to be an insane offseason for trades right like did just because of the state of the league. Right now, there are a bunch of teams that want to make trades. Boston has like three first round picks this year. They want to make trades. The Sixers just hired Darryl Moray. They are going to make trades, like like the thunder are gonna trade Chris Paul. That's another trade. Like the Rockets are gonna trade Russet Westbrook Now that's another trade. Like there's just a bunch of teams that are going to make moves right now. And and this is not even counting the teams we don't even see coming making a trade, right because it does always happen, and I like, it's gonna be an insane period for transactions, and you know, it could be a thing where like some of these gems going on to the phone like okay, how can we best solve all our problems here at once? You know that that happens. Sometimes it's very hard. Don't get me wrong, it's very hard to construct a four team trade. Just because it happens doesn't mean it's not easy. Like it is like one side always like one of those four teams always at the last minute's like, yeah, I think I could use an extra first round day, you know, like you know, maybe we can throw in this contract that you know off our books, right, like it always messes up at the last minute. And but this situation might just necessitated unless you're taking back the huge salary is Houston, because if it's smaller pieces, like you have to worry about the roster spot crunch and so you're gonna need teams to take on certain bodies. So even if it's like a smaller time ask, I would I wouldn't surprise me if this ends up being a three or four team deal, and in that situation, you may be able to net first round picks. Right. You may be able to, like if it is like you're getting like four or five players back, right or like three or whatever, and you know you're not necessarily taking back all those players, you might be able to get a first round pickback, which is pretty unpredictable something. It's something we would have never said a month ago about Westbrook. But I mean, if we're really going out there and like talking about three or fourteen tricks, that's the that's the kind of situation where you might be able to net first round pick back. So I think the natural segue here is to James Harden, and so he's might be unhappy, but he's also locked in for next season, as we already mentioned, Uh, they they're on I don't like the phrase they're on the clock with James Harden because as soon as you max out anybody, you're just on the clock. You've made that Mac contract investment. They've made it, I think two times over now with James Harden, if not three at this point, Like you're you're on the clock. But do you think that From where I'm standing, this just feels doomed to end with there's no way that James Harden finishes his contract here, And part of me is just wondering, like, are we gonna get to a point where he's just we just say, well, he's not even going to be on the team after next season. But do you think is it really that type of a doomsday scenario for Houston or do you think they still have a He will give them an opportunity to redeem themselves, in which case, now the return that they get from Russell Westbrook or what they turn it into, what they're able to do with whoever comes back, and whatever flexibility they gain, which is going to be minimal. The only the only flexibility they're really gaining is if you get contracts that come off the books and you're saving money into twenty one twenty two, Like that just might make it easier to use your mid level exception. Like this isn't a spot where Houston's all of a sudden just going to have all this cap space to spend because Russell Westbrook isn't on the books. You still have James Harden at forty plus million dollars, You have that Eric Gordon number on the books, and even Covington he's on a good deal. That's still twelve point one and so twelve and seventeen and forty one, like you're awfully close to you know, eighty million dollars right there. That doesn't leave you with a ton of flexibility you have to worry about. PJ. Tucker's free agency doesn't seem like he's happy. So I'm just, if you're objectively speaking, just how concern should Rockets fans be that they are approaching the end of their time with James Harden as their franchise superstar. Oh, it should be a nine out of ten right now, right like like, and you know, the only reason I'm not getting good at ten out of ten as Harden as to demanded to trade yet right right, and and that's your saving grace if you're Houston's, like, that's like, that's how you throw a Hail Mary by just having an awesome twenty twenty twenty one campaign, right and convincing him like listen, man, this is the place, like right, like, if you if you can somehow make a really good team out of James Harden in parts, which if they've done before, right like they've they've done that in twenty sixteen seventeen where they surrounded hardwood shooters and a really good role man in click Cappella and they were able to get to fifty five you know wins and you know lose to the Spurs, and that that was a really compelling situation that drew Chris paulin, right, like, if you can get to that point like that, that then maybe you saved yourself. But again, it is a hail married, right, Like you have to have an awesome season in this Western Conference, right, I think this is just as just as like today the toughest Western conference we've seen in years, and it's gonna be really hard to pile up winds. But that's your only hope that that really is, like you have to nail this offseason. You have to spend into the tax if you're telling Patita, which is a big if. And like trust me, Like in Houston, all eyes are on him. The fan base has completely turned on him, and you know they could they should, like they let their old Mori and Mike D'Antoni walk away in one off season. And I think, look, there is an underestimation there, Like I don't think people, I don't the Rockets have received criticism for how they haven't valued chemistry enough, but I don't think anyone appreciated just how good like the relationship between D'Antoni and Harden really was, and then D'Antoni and more and then probably even more and James Harden as well, like that was and you mentioned at the top of the podcast, but like that's an element of this too, is like if it's not just that this whole rust thing didn't work out, it's that if you lost two people in the franchise who it seems like James Harden got along with was on the same page with, Like that's going to be an even bigger part of a trade demand should one come. It's insane, like like I did just this idea that it did. Apparently like Rick Harden doesn't feel like he was involved in the position making process, if that's true. And I haven't looked into that, but if that's true, that is a pretty big red flag if you're using you And it's also a stark contrast from how they would have been run previously, right because he was very much involved when Morey was in the fold, absolutely absolutely, And like the first phone call you make if you're a fostone, if you're if you're Steven Silas getting your you know, get the job. It's that James Harden like like, oh, I'm hired. Okay, hold on, give you one second before you release that press release. Let me call James Harden a quick to tell him I got the job, and let me ask him about his thoughts, right like, like, before you even tell anybody that you have the job, you talk to James Harden right like that. That's that's how important relationships with your star player are. And like the fact that the Rockets treated Harden like royalty up until this season, and that he doesn't feel like they did that they gave him that same favor this season, it's pretty damning, right like like it does. It doesn't get any more damning than that for ownership, for the front office, for the coaching staff, like and this, and I feel really sympathetic to Stephen Size. This is a hell of situation to walk into for your first job. Welcome to the NBA. It is, Uh, it's just the way it goes, man Like, you have to get your star player involved in all these decision making processes. And if that's true, if it dipped it if that doesn't indeed end up being true. And from all indications, like these are pretty incredible reporters that are point of this stuff out there that's bad, It's really bad. There's and look, and so if you want to prevent the hardened situation from reaching critical masks, and it might already be there, like what are you like the Russell Westford trade is probably not going to be the move that actually helps you, which is what's tough to wrap your head around. And we talked about this when you came on to do a Rockets Look Ahead that is now wildly outdated because we were operating on all sorts of assumptions that have just proved untrue. At this point, what else can you do with this roster? And yes, look PJ. Tucker, Robert Covington, even Daniel House, like those are valuable players who you also can't afford to move. Like, yeah, if you were bringing back another star, you give up one of them. But even if you were like bringing back let's just say it's a Victor Oladipo and you're giving up two of them, Like, you can't even feel good about that deal because you're giving up like two incredibly key players, like I would say that after Russ, those three or the most critical players on your roster. And I just don't know what the movie is Like, yes they have like if we're looking on a smaller scale, let's say they break up the Rust contract into smaller pieces. I don't know what the salary is like, is it is it Nicholas Patum, is it Terry Rosier? Like if they go that route, they also have Eric Gordon, But it's like, what are you attaching to any of these pieces to make a deal palatable? And you know, I think when I was talking to you, like one of the best ones I came up with is like can you use Aaron Gordon? And then you would have to go with House and then maybe a pick to try and get Otto Porter Junior from Chicago, And I just don't even know that's doing it. The best thing that does is like, oh, well that's another team smartened by Houston arts it. Yeah. So it's just like it's so I don't know what they can feasibly do, and it's it feels like like are they able to turn in? Like I guess what I'm trying to say is the best route for them to do anything to make this team better. I don't know if it's actually the Russell Westbrook trade. It's certainly not a straight up one. It feels like there's either it's a bigger deal with a ton of moving parts, or you're getting back smaller parts that are then more easily digestible by other teams that you can send out and attach stuff to it. And by stuff, I mean, look, your assets are Covington, PJ. Tucker, Daniel House and that twenty twenty two pick, and you probably don't I mean, unless Tucker just wants to leave at this point because he seems unhappy. You probably can't give up Tucker. I would. You really can't give up Covington. If you want to play small, maybe view one of them as expendable if you're going to sign a traditional center, of which there are plenty on the market this year. So yeah, that's something to consider. But I just I don't even know, Like what is the you know, buy low hit high, Like it's the low risk, high reward play for them. Like I've tried to give some consideration to what might be out there and the closest I can come, and I don't even know if this would be possible? Is that can you take a swing at Victor Oladipot somehow has his value fallen enough where like if Houston's twenty twenty two pick is in play, that Indiana is prepared to bet on Wolf Eric Gordon's healthy or maybe let's say, you know, is Terry Rosier involved from the Indiana trade, Like it's just is something else there from the Russell Westbrook trade where the twenty twenty two pick, and let's say House or Covington, like, get you an Oladipo And is that the type of swing that's even worth making at this point? That is the absolute ceiling that I could come up with. And I spent way too much time thinking about it. Yeah, as we were recording, a friend just texted me like, Victor, is Victor Oladipo telling other players of other teams that he wants Is this true? Yeah? Yeah, I can't remember who reported it. I saw it on aggregated by hoop Central that he was reportedly asking teams other teams as players in front of his teammates if he could come play for those teams, And it was wait, this is even better. It's the heat. The Raptors and the Knicks of all teams, so it was like the Knicks looped in there. It was just absolutely hysterical, like it's pickup basketball? Can you pick me up? Like? What? Right? And the other thing was there was I don't know if you saw it. There was the Oladipo's sister. I believe there was something that there was something that was aggregated about how Oladipo like hasn't been great in the locker room and Indie Oladipo's sister, I believe unless this has proven untrue. Quote tweeted it basically referencing, well, who has the big mouth in Indiana's locker room. Someone replied with it's definitely Miles Turner, and she, I guess liked it or responded to it, and then Myles Turner dropped in that conversation and said, oh, it's like that now. So there's like all this weird drama in Indiana. And I'm just not even saying that a package of you know, let's say, filler Comington in a twenty twenty two pick. I don't know if that gets you, Oladipo. I would assume. I just love this idea of trading toxic for toxic and just like hoping it fixes itself out on both situations like that. That's hilarious. Yeah, there's But I'm just saying like that might be the type of swing they need to take because I don't know that you can just say, like I do, what is the endgame of trading Russell Westbrook? Like what is the goal? You mentioned rebuilding pieces before, but how do you sell a thirty something James Harden on that direction? Yeah, I mean those rebuilding pieces have to be good, right, like like they have to be really good, and they have to get you to a place where you're winning. Yeah, you have to win fifty games next year. And by the way, that report of Oladipot came from Jay Michael, So he's like with the indie indie star and he knows his pace or stuff like that's a guy who's plugged in. So like that wasn't that anecdote is from a revitable reporter and so it's not something to be taken lightly. Yeah, it wasn't some dude at A at A. It wasn't Legion hoops that it. Yeah, Yeah, that is pretty credible there. Yeah, that's insane. That is insane. Yeah, I mean yeah, but like taking a swing is all you have at this point, Like you have to take swings at guys like Oladipo, like Blake Griffin. I don't, I don't know. I don't think Boss is gonna even entertain this, But like you haven't take swings like a guys like gart Gordon Hayward, like guys like that are the kinds of player you have to take swings at if you're Houston and you're just hoping that Westbrook is a palatable enough piece to where you can't trade at you don't have to trade feature of first round picks, because if that's the case, I'm telling you right now, they are not trading creature first round picks unless the deal is so good, like if you're getting like Paul George back in return or something, then yeah, obviously you trade to first round picks. I don't think. I don't think they're getting that. So if that's the case, I mean, you have to bank on right Westbrook being palatable enough for some of these front offices to be like, you know what, we have to make the playoffs, let's go ahead and trade you, you know, an Oladipo. Uh and and you know, the Pacers, by the way, aren't like one of these playoffs star of teams, Like, they have a pretty winning history, So that's gonna be a front office hard to convince. But uh, you know, the Pacers, the Pistons, like you, you have to bank on one of these teams being desperate enough to take that next step and you know, hoping that one of these pieces that you know, you know they had, whether they're injury plagued or we haven't seen them play basketball for a while, whether these players are good and you know, like, I think that's the kind of trade, that's the kind of trade you have to make if you're Houston, because I mean, here's the thing. You're trading a known asset, Like what however you feel about west or Westwood, You're trading a known asset and you're you're trying to get something that's unknown, and trying to sell that to James Harden is gonna be tough. But if that if that player is a is a name, right, if that player is someone like Blake Griffin, right, like, then you can possibly sell that to hard and as no like listen, like this is like like used to be a pre Pernio MVP candidate. This guy's really really good. You just had an injury year. You know, you played like eighteen games last year. What do you expect like, of course his production was gonna be down, Like that's the kind of way you have to sell it, James, And it's gonna be tough. And I do not envy raphel Stone again. Welcome to the NBA. Well, then do you know what could happen? And I haven't seen this, and it just kind of sprang to me, is that, why don't you just go for a riskier version of Russell Westbrook who likes to pass. And their deals match up almost dollar for dollar Russell Westbrook for John Wall And maybe that's the trade where you're actually getting an asset in return because Wall is coming off that Achilles injury. Yeah, but does John Wall and James Harden get you to fifty wins next year? I think so the two things that have to happen is then you're continuing to play super small. I'd also just be curious to like, no, because Washington is getting the best at least the safer player in this regard with Russell Westbrook is what else could you get out of them? Like, is there can you expand it to include a sign and trade with Davis Burton's and you're giving them Eric Gordon, I don't know how much interest they would happen something like that? Is it? You know, is Troy Brown junior of interest to Houston? Like you're definitely not getting the number nine pick or Ruby Hachimura out of that. But it feels like that would be the type of deal where if you John Wall's healthy and you're just trying to sort of mime last year's style, Now you're putting someone in place who actually likes to pass more than Russell, like Russell Westbrook. And I'm not trying to make this an insult. I feel like he passes out of circumstance, like out of necessity because he has to where John Wall really likes to pass. And so I actually think he's probably a healthy John Wall is a better fit for James Harden than Russell Westbrook is in my in my personal opinion, yeah, I mean at his best, he is definitely a better defensive player. But man, these these trades really are pot of the barrel, Like it's you're in a really bad spot right now if Houston, like, it's just like his value already was was rock bottom, and the fact that he came out in de mand his trade just sunk it even more. I do not envy this front office. I mean, like again, these trades that we're talking about are awful for a team trying to contend, just awful. Like like, yeah, they might make you better because Russ was such a poor fit, but doesn't make it a good trade. Well, there's also no guarantee they make you better because like Russell again, Russell Usbork played really well from like you know, the middle of the season to like the tail end of it. So it's like he was he still wasn't the best fit. Like, you got worse because you traded Chris Paul. That was the first domino to fall that screwed them over. Yeah, I mean, if you're Houston, I think you're I think the model to follow is that twenty sixteen seventeen season where you know, in the off season they signed Eric Gordon, they signed Ryan Anderson, they signed the Nay and they were a really fun team that no one really expected to contend. But it made Harden content enough to stick along to where you know, you know, the next team in the trade for Chris Paul. That's that's the tough part, right, Like, how do you pivot from that fun team to a contender? I don't know you can't at that point because I don't I think the comverorage pretty bare. But that's your only hope. Like here's the thing, which, here's the thing with having a player like James Harden pivoting to a rebuild. Yeah, it sounds, it sounds fun, but James Harden is a generational player. You're almost certainly not going to get that in your next franchise player, Like like, it's just the odds are super low that you're that you're gonna get a player of that kind of like a top five, top six in the NBA kind of player, even if even if you get Ben Simmons, right, Like, which is which is the hot name right now? Ben Simmons? I love Ben Simmons, But as this peak, what is is he? What? Top ten, top fifteen? He probably is, But you're also not going to get him for Russell Westbrook right like like like yeah, I'm just saying like if you're playing, if you're planning to rebuild from Harden, from Harden, I got you, I got yeah, yeah, like like I just think, like you need like it would have to be a situation where it's coming from. I don't even know if you get like I don't, I don't know what's the better route to go? Is uh, getting like someone who's more established, like a Ben Simmons, or like, okay see, he got the best of most worlds with Shay Giltra Alexander in some distant first round picks. Maybe that's the routes to go. Where can you go with you know, something like okay see, like that'd be really funny. Is he hardened back? And okay see, because they have all those picks of all those other teams, we even the New Orleans Pelicans who have with those late Lakers picks. So at that point, what you're doing is getting bad yourself, and so your picks are going to be higher. But Houston trade aways so much of his future already that's potentially a problem. But then you're also getting these like set my distant future first that could turn into something down like, I'm not sure what's the better route to go. Neither is especially palatable. I think if yeah, Ben Simmons was on the table. Like, having a top ten, top fifteen guy like that certainly makes your team better, but you're not, I do. It's clear like you're gonna come down substantially from from Harden. Yeah, And that's why I advocate ride this high as long as you can until he comes to you and asks out. Like again, your championship odds are just always at a certain percentage when you have James Arnold team. He's that kind of a player. He always puts you in the miss in the mix. I just, oh, sorry, go ahead, I didn't mean interrect, No, I mean I mean he always keeps you in contention. And I think if you're useful, like yeah, it might sound a little bit relieving, a little less stressful, a little easier to try and rebuild, but it's it's substantially harder. It just sounds easier. It's substantially harder to rebuild from that. Yeah, Like you might eventually have to do it at at some point, but I think you can afford the way to year. Harden's value is still gonna be really good next year, and I think at that point, you know, you can write out another year of James Harden, which I think is good, like you want to write out as many years of James Harden as you possibly can before the right ends. Now, final question is more it might be a series of questions. Just James Harden finished next season with the Houston Rockets. It really depends on how that year starts, huh. And if that's the case, it really depends on what kind of what kind of hall they get back for Westbrook. Right, I'll say, yes, I don't think he starts to twenty twenty two seasons with him for one season. That was gonna be our next question, and that's where I'm at too, is that I will be I don't know if it'll be pleasantly surprised, but I guess mildly surprised if he's on the roster beyond next season, because I don't know where they would need to get to next year for him to deem it a success. Here's so I'll take this. This is where I'm at. I think it's more likely that Russell Westbrook finishes next season in Houston then I think it is that James Harden begins the twenty two season in Houston, If that makes any sense. No, I get it that that count that computes well on that head. But here's a question I ask for you, what isn't optimized? Like, like, let's just say they're the Rockets somehow like managed to cobble together like a third seed in the West, which is gonna be really tough, Like really you're talking about passing up teams like at least like Denver right of quality. But let's just say they do it. Is that if you're if you're if you're harded, like, yeah, you're not better than the Lakers, you're not better than the Clippers, but and you're you're probably not better than the Warriors. But if you're a third or fourth seed, is that an attractive enough situation to want to stay or do you still want out? At that point? Do you still force a trade to like Philadelphia? I think you kind of size up what they can do in the offseason because I think what happens is so whether or not you trade Westbrook in that situation, like everything on your books gets a little bit more palatable at that point. So even Russ, like what if it goes to Chris Paul route where he has a great year next season and like all of a sudden, no, I don't think he'll ever be at the level Chris Paul was because of what Chris Paul can still do defensively, and he actually has a jump shot. But what if his contract, oh, there's only two years left, and that final two years and what is it like ninety million dollars, a little over ninety one million dollars, whatever it is, that doesn't look so terrible anymore. So he becomes more movable. Or even Eric Gordon with only two years left on his deal, if he has a better season, he's more movable, and so there might be more stuff that you can do. And then maybe I'm seeing if I'm hardened. No, they're not gonna have cap space like they would literally need to. They need to trade away. And let's say they trade Russell Westbrook for all expirings. Going into the twenty one twenty two season, they have eighty one point three million dollars committed to Harden, Gordon, Covington, and Daniel House that's all guaranteed, and that number ken it's it's about eighty million dollars. That number can only go up if they add players this summer to multi year deals. So it's not going to be a matter of caps space, but I feel like it does get a little bit easier to maybe construct moves, and it gets even easier if you've actually turned Russell Westbrook into something other than oh, we don't owe as much. Like if you can get even a low end first or just a prospect, and now you can trade that prospect with Eric Gordon's salary, or maybe you've traded first salary that's coming off the books in in twenty two in the Westbrook trade. So I think you give them time to gather themselves in the off season, but you need to have reached This is important. You need to have reached what you just talked about, which I would say is at least top four in the West, and put up a real fight in the second round, if not, maybe the Western Conference finals. And that's not going to be easy because, as you mentioned, we're talking Lakers, we're talking Clippers, we're talking Nuggets. If the Warriors are healthy, the Mavericks are coming, what happens if the Sun's trade for Chris Paul. The Jazz are going to be there if they remain healthy. So it's not easy. And I think if you are around that territory, though, if you finish the year third or fourth, and you don't get annihilated in the first round. You at least put yourself in a position to where maybe you can do things that will make Harden more likely to stay with you. The other thing that you could do is if he really didn't have a major say in what was happening this summer, you need to change that, because that's what made Houston so attractive I think to Harden in the first place right now, is that he had so much of an influence in in what was happening, And you can't let that be, you know, I don't. I'm not saying you need to let your superstar run your team, but if you are that desperate to keep James Harden, he has to be just as involved, if not more involved, as he was with Daryl Morey and D'Antoni. And I don't necessarily know what would have changed, because as we already talked about, he supported the Westbrook trade. That wasn't a more move. Was that Morey just listening to his star? Was it for Tita pushing Morey as well? And now Fortia just and trust James Harden's basketball opinion. I honestly don't know, but it does seem like Harden's influence transcended Mori a little bit because of that trade. That or Mori was really just willing to defer to his star's gut, which definitely proved to be a mistake there. So those are the two things I think you can do if you need to finish high enough in the West to put yourself in a position to do something because you can't stand pad at that point. And also, if it's true that Harden didn't feel like he was involved throughout this process, that that needs to change post taste. I agree. Here's another question I have for you, and this is kind of a fun, fun little hypothetical. We're never gonna get the answer to this, but what's a better team. Let's say the Rockets managed to persuade Russell Westbrook to stay and you go into you go into next season with the same core, and you maybe you add someone from the taxpayer mL League. What is that core better than what you get with Hardened plus whatever you get from the Westbrook trade, and maybe you sign like a Netherlands dwell in the offseason because you don't have to go out and you don't have to go full microball anywhere at that point, because you know you're not you don't need that corse facing. You have four shooters in the floor at that point. So what's a better team that team or a team like or the same court running back. I don't know. It's tough to know without knowing what they're getting in the Westbrook. If you were to ask me, like, let's say, let's use Blake Griffin as the example, or let's say they were able to swing like a you know, was it like a four team deal that lands them Al Horford or Kevin Love or Blake Griffin, Like, if that's a scenario, if it's if Blake Griffin's healthy, I think I might go that that's the better team because he's a shooter in himself, which helps. And you could even go with Kevin Love in that scenario too, even am I gonna say Al Horford as well? It's so I think I think having Westbrook might give you the higher ceiling, but all those other options give you a better chance of just being the better all around, like having the higher floor, If that makes any sense, I'm with you, Like, like, I think Westbrook is just such a high arian's player like his ceiling with this Rockets team might be higher, but the circumstances where you hit that ceiling are just like like you're talking about like ping pong balls, right, I think, and I think you hit more. You hit more good ping pong balls with the team without Westbrook than you do with him. But there is one ping pong ball in that in that stack of hundreds that hits the lottery, right, And and that's why you would keep Westbrook, right, You're trying, you're trying to get that one, and I wouldn't. I wouldn't approach it that way. I think I agree with you. I think it is that team with with without Westbrook. I think it's that if you can successfully do that and pull it off and find well fitting pieces this offseason, I think that team is better. And at that point, like you're talking about trying to salvage the season, which is gonna be tough, It's gonna be tough by the way up quick quick aside, Like isn't that kind of like Blake Griffin's ideal situation, like if he ends up at Houston, because like I don't think he's a powerful it anymore, Like no offense to him in today's NBA. He just can't play that anymore. He's not a good enough defender, He's not a good enough shooter, and I think playing him at center is just like maximizing his abilities and whatever TV ends up on, I'd like to see him play center. I think he'd be really good for Houston specifically too. It's you have PJ. Tucker and Robert Covington there to where I think you might be able to have a better chance of getting away with that move. Defensively, that's the biggest problem with playing him at centers. I don't know unless he's going up against like he might be able to hold up in the post against some guys or just slow movers in general, but that you know, him going up against bigger players isn't necessarily a solution having him with your back line rim protector. But again, you have PJ. Tucker and Robert Covington in Houston right now, So yeah, I think you could argue that the Rockets are a good situation for him with that, though you know you're nervous about you have to be nervous about his injuries, Like the floor there is just so low if he goes down again, because then you have nothing around James Harden aside from like if you just took Westbrook off this roster without putting anyone else in place, Like what is that team? Like, is that a playoff team in the West? It might, I guess James Harden is good enough for it still to be. But at the same time, it's like you need a really good run of health for that to happen at that point, because you're just so shallow without that extra star. Yeah, And this is why I classify this trade as a high risk from a team perspective a low risk from an asset management perspective, because you can then he becomes the expiring next year, right like in from an asset perspective, if he's not good, it doesn't matter, Like he's an expiring contract, you can move to a rebuild, you can trade him. You'll be a really valuable contract because that's like what thirty five million expiring salary. I'm sure they're gonna be teams that want to acquire that for cap space to following season and or just keep him. And you have that, you have that you know, contract becoming cap space, and I think if you're Houston, you want to be a team with cap space right and and you can move all the players around that. You can move hard, and you can move, you can move coming, you can move to that. Tucker is going to be a free age at that point. But you can move Cord and you can move all those other guys, And I like, that's why that trade to me is the most appealing. The big question here is does Detroit want to do that right right? Like? And you know, I struggle with that. I'm not sure if they want to do it like it is fun to to picture a world like Christian would and like in like Rust of the Westbrook there, like you know, trying to battle for an AC in the conference. But it is definitely a tough sell. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. I might have to call you back again to grade whatever trade goes down for these Rockets. But I do appreciate you coming on to talk about Houston. So many things happening there. They're clearly now like probably the most fascinating team heading into the transaction period. So Salmon, thank you again so much for coming on. If you guys are not following him again, it's Salmon. Ali NBA. That's at SA l U M A n A l I n B A and be sure to listen to his podcast at Red Nation Hoops and also subscribe to his news letter State of the Rockets dot substack dot com. It is in his bio on Twitter, so one other reason to follow him. Thank you so much again, This was a blast. I let's talking news for you. Yeah, it's fun. Dat Sugar, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns, legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four parts series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime