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In this segment, a person of
faith who is also the director for the

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National Center of Science and Education explains
why the separation of church and state is

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good for both education and religion.
However, we could see that divide being

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challenged through legislation in some states.
ELI. How can such laws impact our

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classrooms? Well, I'll summarize the
bill for you here. This is a

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surprising stance by a religious science educator
to be honest in this article about the

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West Virginia Senate Bill two point eighty, recently signed into law by Governor Jim

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Justice. The bill's stated purpose,
as originally introduced, was to allow teachers

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in public schools, including public charter
schools, to teach intelligent design. The

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approved version of the bill simply disallows
public educational institutions from prohibiting teachers from discussing

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or answering questions from students about scientific
theories of how the universe and or life

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came to exist. So the bill
no longer includes any mention of creation or

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intelligent design or any religious language.
So, resolving exactly zero complaints, West

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Virginia science teachers are now permitted to
answer questions about science while teaching science and

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their science classrooms. This story is
from Scientific America by Amanda L. Townley

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on April third, twenty twenty four. Well, I find it remarkable that

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this director of the National Science National
Center for Science and Education, excuse me,

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is also a person of faith.
She blatantly states that upfront in the

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article, and for me, those
seem like conflicting views. And so I

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want to get your take on whether
you think it's possible for a person of

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faith to also be a professional in
the scientific field but also be genuine about

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it. What are your thoughts there. I would say that it certainly seems

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to be. This article really surprised
me, kind of like I said,

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and she seems really genuine. I
am thrilled to see a religious person who

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has a significant who has significant control
over science education to take this stance and

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say no, keep religion out of
science. And I have a difficult time.

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I cannot reconcile scientific information with religious
information. For me, the two

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don't reconcile. And that's why I'm
not a believer, because I tend to

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lean towards what there seems to be
more evidence for. And she, perhaps

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she has a small little pocket of
suspended disbelief where she can reconcile these two

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things or ignore one or the other
while performing certain well, you know,

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while in church mode and believer motor. In scientist mode, I don't have

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those two modes. I just have
the one. And so it certainly is

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possible, it seems because I think
miss Townley is is genuine and I commend

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her. But for me, I
know it wouldn't be sure. You know,

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it reminds me of a story I
was in college. I had a

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professor on day one had to give
his disclaimer. This is for my historical

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geology course, who said that,
you know, we're going to be covering

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some topics that might conflict with your
personally personal religions, your deeply held beliefs.

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And I just want to say that
through the course of our study and

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in the field of science, there
is plenty of room for all of the

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world's great religions. And I thought, man, that's impossible. I mean,

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not only does one religion and science
cancel each other out, especially when

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we're talking about the creation story in
the Bible, for example, but then

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all of them. You know,
I don't know how you reconcile that.

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And so when I see things like
this. When I see legislators trying to

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create laws where they can teach the
framework of their religions, I just look

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at it as a loophole, a
way to get their perspectives inside the classroom

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to unwilling participants, children, you
know, who can't defend themselves. And

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I want to ask, Infidel,
do you think that this is just a

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loophole to introduce Christianity into the classroom. Without a doubt, I think that

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their goal, even though they remove
the intelligent design part. As Eli mentioned,

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you know, they passed a bill
so you could teach scientific theories in

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science class. That doesn't make a
lot of sense in in and of itself,

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But in the Florida discussion of the
sponsor of the bill, Amy Grady

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did declare that as the bill was
amended that it would protect the teaching of

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intelligent design in West Virginia public schools. So they're definitely viewing it as giving

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them that opening. So what blows
my mind is how many Christians are cheering

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for this but not thinking about how
easy it's going to be for somebody who's

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religious to open up their mouth and
say something in class that's not compatible with

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their version of religion, like you
were talking about how they're going to fit

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all the religion when they can't even
fit just one creation myth to try to

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be able to fit that into you
literally thousands of different denominations and trying to

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fit whatever that cojent definition, which
there really isn't one, or whatever that

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attempt at a cogent definition of some
teacher of any sort, not just science.

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This is going to ultimately open up
for everyone to talk about things in

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class. This is just opening up
all kinds of doors that those who are

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in small, minority, small groups
of Christianity should be just as concerned about

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this as we are, because this
is putting them on the line in the

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long run, too, right,
And I think it's a misconception, Scott.

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I know that you may have some
thoughts about that this idea that the

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author says studying evolution wouldn't compromise one's
faith, But what is your take on

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that. Well, I'm not really
sure if I think that that's a misconception,

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at least not in higherly, so
science education really should be. You

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know, the goal of science education
is to learn the truth about the universe,

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and more importantly, to learn how
to apply methods that reliably lead to

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truth. Right, And so that's
kind of the main function of of the

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of the science classroom. Now,
let's compare this. In an earlier segment,

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we talked about how Pope Benedict encouraged, in fact ordered his his uh

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you know, flock to prioritize the
needs of the church over the over the

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needs of the individual. Right,
And so he's saying dogma over reality in

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the in in my opinion, in
that case. And so here and I

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think we do have to give props
for doctor Townley here. She she is

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a religious person, but she's not
following the Pope's edict there. She's not

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you know, taking the hit for
the team. She's not you know,

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placing her her faith above what she
what she knows deep down in her heart

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is real and more importantly, can
back it up. Right. So that's

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the difference. Want to So the
science classroom should be focusing on reality.

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If the religion goes against that,
then it should be called out. Then

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it should there should be conflict between
the classroom and religion if there is,

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and if there is, you know, we've been we've been using the science

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classroom to learn about reality. If
you have a conflict in that, then

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that's because you're wrong. Okay,
Well, you know, I want to

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stick with this idea of a misconception
because my perception, my opinion of this

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is that she's trying to balance two
things that are mutually exclusive. Okay,

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and so, Eli, I kind
of wanted to get your take if I

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were to ask you, do you
think that this teacher or excuse me,

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this the director, the author of
this article, do you think that while

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she says teaching evolution won't necessarily erode
her religious beliefs? If you will,

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do you think that that's actually happening
to her by her inclination to keep her

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religion out of schools? What do
you think that that goes against the fundamental

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basic tenets of what she's supposed to
be doing as a Christian? That could

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be argued the famous one is,
you know, Matthew twenty eight, nineteen

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twenty the Great Commission, go and
make disciples. So you could say a

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Christian could argue with that, by
not not pushing for a religious curriculum in

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public schools, for creationism in science
class, that she is not following the

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Great Commission. A Christian. I
think could argue that reading the full quote

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that you took a part of the
first misconception is that learning about evolution threatened

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students' faith, she says. She
goes on to say, in that same

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line, same paragraph, evolutionary biology, like any area of modern science,

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is simply a body of knowledge about
the natural world. And instead of methods

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and procedures for attaining, refining,
and testing that knowledge, nothing in evolutionary

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biology denies the existence of God or
places constraints on divine activity. And those

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are all true things. I completely
agree with all of that, and I

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think it's because of that piece right
there that I think I'm comfortable saying that

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just because she accepts what you know
scientific consensus to be, she uses that

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to base the majority of her views
about the world and determine, you know,

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what she thinks is true. That
does give her that pocket, like

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I mentioned earlier, of perhaps that
suspended disbelief to accept this claim, this

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God claim, these divine claims,
whichever hers are. And I think she

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is both genuinely. I think she's
genuine in both her educational front and her

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religious front, and I don't think
it's eroding her views necessarily. Okay,

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Well, she does make a common
argument, one that we've seen since the

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foundation of our country. In fact, it's said that a group of Baptists

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actually advised our founders to keep church
at states separate so that one religion didn't

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get too powerful and kind of edge
out all of the other ones. And

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I think the author makes that kind
of point saying, you know, perhaps

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other creations stories or myths. She
listed a few herself, maybe taught in

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the classroom alongside these other ones,
and there has to be a line drawn

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somewhere, infidel. Does she have
a valid argument there? Would that necessarily

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take away Christianity or would it strengthen
the position that they should put Christianity in

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schools if they also included these other
myths stories. I think that there actually

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could be a spot for Christianity,
not in science class and literature class.

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If you wanted to talk about comparing
you know, creation myths or flood myths,

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or a variety of different things in
the Bible, so on that aspect,

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I think that that would be one
way I'd find it far more tolerable.

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But not in science class. Having
said that, though I was a

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believer who accepted evolution. I was
not a creationist, So I think that

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for some of us, you know, the Catholic Church accepts evolution as well,

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and as Eli pointed out, that
evolution doesn't negate the existence of a

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God, it doesn't even address that. But for the people that this bill

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is for those people, to them, what we accept is scientific fact,

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it really is heresy. So to
them it would be something that as a

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whole you probably wouldn't find a much
of Pope followers either, because most Catholics

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that I'm aware of a good percentage
of them at least accept evolution. So

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but among these reactionarys that this bill
is far, yeah, they're they're looking

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for the sixth Day. God,
God said it, Bang, it happen,

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and that's that's that's the end of
the story. So I think that

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this is one of the dangers of
it. And I would love to see

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the creation story place right next to
half a dozen other ones in literature.

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It might open some eyes in that
perspective. Sure, definitely not in science

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class. Absolutely, I couldn't couldn't
agree with you there more So I kind

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of just want to recap here,
you know what you said. I think

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it's important that you talk about maybe
the motivation of this science teacher or this

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scientist, and then the motivations of
elected officials for wanting to put religion in

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schools. They're different, right,
They're different. We can never really know

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how many elected officials would be behind
something like this and what each of their

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individual motivations are, but I do
want to highlight that there it has to

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be some kind of dividing line.
And that's what I think this teacher is

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getting at, or the scientist is
getting at. And so I want to

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turn to our resident teacher of the
show tonight and ask Scott, you know,

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where do we establish a line between
reality based and faith based education?

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Well, I think that's especially important
in the science classroom. Like I said

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before, so the whole goal of
science is to address reality that's in front

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of us here that we're all living
in. Here. I have to give

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kudos to this religious doctor who supports
science even in the face of conflict with

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her with her religious beliefs, and
so, you know, so I think

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that's a good first step. Where
do we draw the line between reality based

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education and faith based education? Well, you know, it depends on what

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the class is, you know,
in a science class, faith based teaching

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has no place, has no place. I mean, imagine if I went

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into my classroom and I wanted to
teach math, and if I taught one

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plus one is equal to three,
and so obviously that's not the case.

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That's against you know, reality,
and it's just plain wrong. And in

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fact, we could even say that
I would be negligent as a teacher to

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be giving that information to my students
because it is incorrect and it is not

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in agreement with reality. Now what
if what instead if I turned around and

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said, well, that's that's what
I believe, you know, that's my

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religious belief. Should I be allowed
to teach that. I mean, under

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this kind of bill, that kind
of thing would be allowed. Or I

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can't remember if the bill, this
bill specifically addresses the science classroom, but

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I'm sure it could easily spill into
other types of arenas. And so in

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the case where you're teaching a class
where the goal of the class is to

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address reality, I mean, you
have to draw a hard line in the

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sand. There a hard stop.
No faith based Now, if we're talking

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about something off, we're discussing literature, or maybe we're talking about art,

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or maybe even a you know,
a comparative religion class. Then you know,

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in those cases, you're not presenting
the information as if it were fact

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about the universe. Right, then
we're talking about the subjective, which you

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know, subjects with which are just
as valuable as the hard sciences and mathematics.

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But it's the attitude of the student
coming into it is not this is

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reality. It's let's talk about these
ideas, let's assess these ideas, let's

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let's exchange our opinions on this.
And so I think the difference is are

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the students going into the class expecting
to learn about what's real or are they

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expected to go in to learn about
how to think and how to analyze and

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how to compare and that kind of
thing. And so, to me,

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that would be the difference. That
would be the difference the objective of the

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course and the attitude of the students
coming into it. Sure, and you

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know that is a good place to
land for these conversations that we've been having

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tonight, because science, right,
that poses a problem. But for the

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people that are trying to push these
kinds of educational programs admitting that they their

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education doesn't belong this kind of education
doesn't belong in the science program, but

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it might be okay in an art
or literature course. I mean that could

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potentially reflect them admitting that what they
believe is not actually factual. And so

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I don't think that we're likely to
see them back off of science. I

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don't think that they're interested in art
and culture and literature. And on that

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note, being that I've kind of
taken all the points and wrap them into

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one, I want to give everybody
wrap them into a conclusion. I should

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say, I want to give everybody
a closing couple of minutes to get their

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final thoughts out. I'll go with
Eli, then Infidel, then we'll finish

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up with Scott. So Eli,
please applorse yours yes, So again,

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I just well, I firstly,
I meant to do it last time.

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Thank you Scott for using the correct
honorific for doctor timely, because I messed

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it up and I got and I
demoted her. So thank you for getting

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that right in correcting me. My
thought that I had that I didn't address

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was I thought it was. I
was surprised that the initial bill got rejected

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because it seemed to me and I'm
no law expert thankfully, because I would

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have approved of this because it seems
to me that it's just barely not unconstitutional

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because they're just allowing teachers to teach
intelligent design, not requiring it or adding

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into the curriculum. But thankfully that
got rejected and now they're just allowed to

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teach science in science classrooms. It's
like we had before, so all as

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well. That ends well, excellent, Infidel. I think that one of

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the things that was mentioned in the
article that I touched on earlier, and

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I believe you did as well,
and that is the importance of how critical

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it is for people who are believers, who are people who have a faith

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that is a minority faith, be
careful when things like this come up,

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because you could be on the wrong
side of this at some point. Not

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everyone practices their faith traditions like you
do. And that's the one thing that

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I really hope that the people on
even the other side recognize. Be careful

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what you wish for, because it
might not be what you expect. Scott.

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Yeah, I'll just summ it up
by saying that your right to believe

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and practice your religion should not take
presidents over my right to learn about the

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real world. Well that those are
great closing comments. I just want to

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say that Scott, in no way, shape or form, would ever teach

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anybody that one plus one equals three. Regardless of what you have to say

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about him as a human being,
he's a great teacher. Maybe for really

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big values of one they would add
up there. So I don't know,

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we'll see. You know, this
a great conversation. I think what made

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this interesting is that we are not
used to seeing scientists, excuse me,

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we're not used to seeing scientists also
be people of faith right and to support

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the side of the scientist, and
so you know, that is something that

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is uncommon, and you know,
I hope that we see more of