1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,400 I'm a writer, consulting producer, and now podcaster. I am now trying 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,519 to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other victims 4 00:00:16,519 --> 00:00:20,719 of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders 5 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:25,160 and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,120 Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,399 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media manager 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,240 and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, 9 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:48,159 Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,159 Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Jim Clemente, retired FBI profiler and 11 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,479 writer, producer on CBS's Criminal Minds and host of Real Crime Profile. And 12 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,920 Laura Richards, behavioral analyst from New Scotland and host of Real Crime Profile and 13 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:07,239 Crime Analyst, here to talk about the FBI pressor on January eighth about the 14 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,599 new breaks in the Colonial Parkway murders cases. Jim and Laura, thank you 15 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,040 so much for joining us today. Great to be here. Thank you, 16 00:01:15,159 --> 00:01:21,239 great to be here. If you recall we talked Bill back in twenty sixteen 17 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,879 about this case and about the murder of your sister and her girlfriend and three 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:33,079 other double homicides that happened along the Colonial Parkway back in the late eighties, 19 00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:38,239 and we'll link to those episodes of Real Crime Profile. And we can't thank 20 00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:42,120 the two of you enough for being here. We know your time is valuable 21 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:46,959 and your insight in particular, the two of you bring I don't know how 22 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,239 many years worth of law enforcement experience to the table, but we can't thank 23 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,599 you enough. This is one of those situations where our heads are spinning, 24 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:59,840 quite frankly. This past Monday, January eighth, twenty twenty four, the 25 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:07,439 Virginia State Police FBI and the Hampton, Virginia Police Department had a press conference. 26 00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:14,360 We ended up with probably far more questions than we received answers, because 27 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,800 it felt like the presentation was very confusing. Both of you had a chance 28 00:02:19,879 --> 00:02:23,840 to take a look at some of the press conference. What did you make 29 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:29,599 of it? I watched it and I tweeted about it immediately after texting you, 30 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,360 Bill and also looking for what you were saying about it, because I 31 00:02:32,439 --> 00:02:38,680 have to say I was confused and it was a very confusing press conference. 32 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:42,840 I couldn't quite work out why they weren't referring to the Colonial Parkway murders. 33 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,520 They talked about the Isle of Wight murders and they were referencing David Nobling and 34 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:53,639 Robin Edwards, and then talked about another case that was linked to Alan Wade 35 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:59,039 Wilmer Senior. And that was a great development to hear that there was suspect 36 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:04,759 identified that he has he was deceased, So it wasn't that this is a 37 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,840 man hunt or a live investigation. It was we are confirming that there is 38 00:03:08,879 --> 00:03:14,199 a suspect identified who was Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, age sixty three, but 39 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,879 he died in twenty seventeen, and he was responsible DNA confirmed for the nineteen 40 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,400 eighty seven attack and murder of David Nobling and Robin Edwards. And there was 41 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:30,319 a sexual component to the Robin Edwards' case. And in nineteen eighty nine he 42 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,000 strangled, raped and murdered Teresa Howell, who was twenty nine and that happened 43 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,479 in Hampton. So I hadn't heard of Teresa Howe before, so I was 44 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:44,479 very curious about that case. But given its strangulation, rape and murder, 45 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:50,719 my immediate question was about how many other victims are there? What about Kathy? 46 00:03:51,159 --> 00:03:54,159 What about Becky? What about all the other cases that we've discussed as 47 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:58,719 part of the Colonial Parkway murders. It also made me think about what about 48 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Lolly Winans and Judy Williams that happened ten years later that I've talked about extensively 49 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:06,639 on Crime Analyst and spoken to both of you about. But it was just 50 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:13,159 very confusing. I felt there was some distance by the FBI in calling it 51 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,879 the Isle of Wight murders, and it meant that people would be confused, 52 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,160 because if I was confused and I knew about the case, what would that 53 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,560 mean for the public. And it probably meant that other people didn't join the 54 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,439 dots, and it didn't get as much attention as it should because what they 55 00:04:28,439 --> 00:04:32,839 were trying to call upon was for the public to help timeline this very prolific 56 00:04:32,879 --> 00:04:39,000 perpetrator. So if your aim is to timeline someone, you put out accurate 57 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,160 information. You're very clear you want the public's help, so you have to 58 00:04:44,199 --> 00:04:46,639 create trust and confidence. You can't have people sat there thinking, hang on 59 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,240 a minute, wait is this part of this other series or what's going on? 60 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,319 Because that's a distraction. So I was concerned, and I did want 61 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,680 to know about Kathy and Becky, and they did say the investigation is ongoing. 62 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,319 It's been ongoing for many decades. Jim, I don't know how you 63 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:08,600 We talked in the morning that it was coming, and what did you think. 64 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:14,360 I spoke to Bill before the press conference, and so I had an 65 00:05:14,399 --> 00:05:17,040 idea of what was coming, and then what I saw of the press conference, 66 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,279 I didn't see it coming. What I saw was confusion and obfuscation and 67 00:05:21,399 --> 00:05:28,480 actually some things that I thought we were outright wrong incorrect, like a statement 68 00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:31,680 that was made that because there was no felonies on Wilmer's record, that they 69 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:39,000 couldn't legally collect DNA to test it against the DNA that was found in these 70 00:05:39,079 --> 00:05:46,079 murder scenes, which is it's just an out and out bullshit lie. That's 71 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:53,000 just not true at all. You don't need anything of the subject's criminal record, 72 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,519 you don't need anything. He could be a stellar citizen, but you 73 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,560 can grab his garbage, because that's actually a band property, and you could 74 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,439 test items in his garbage, or you could follow him and when he discards 75 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,800 a coke can like they did in the Golden State killer case, you can 76 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,680 collect that and then get the DNA off of it, and then you can 77 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,519 get a warrant to actually collect his da officially by doing a bugle swab, 78 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:25,319 for example, and confirm it. But this is just that's just wrong, 79 00:06:25,399 --> 00:06:28,160 that's just not true. They did not have to wait till he died. 80 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:33,279 That sounded like a flimsy, bullshit excuse to me. But the important thing 81 00:06:33,399 --> 00:06:40,920 is that not only was he tied to the murder of Teresa Howell, but 82 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:47,519 also to the murder of two of the victims that have been classically identified as 83 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:53,360 Colonial Parkway murder victims, and that was Robin Edwards and David Noblin. But 84 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:59,079 there are still three other double homicides in that case. I don't know if 85 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:05,920 this was some they're obfuscating about the fact that the Nobling and Edwards cases were 86 00:07:05,959 --> 00:07:11,839 related to the Colonial Parkway murders. I don't know if they were trying not 87 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:17,160 to mention it or harp on it because they didn't want to basically put words 88 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:24,040 in people's mouths or get people to who doesn't don't really know information to call 89 00:07:24,079 --> 00:07:26,920 in. I don't know if they were afraid of the hype or something, 90 00:07:27,319 --> 00:07:30,839 but it's just as you said, Laura, if you're actually looking for help 91 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:38,399 to solve unsolved homicides and they're in a series that everybody knows about in the 92 00:07:38,439 --> 00:07:43,560 area and in fact probably the nation, why would you avoid it. It 93 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,720 just doesn't make any sense unless they're hiding something. Maybe they have more information 94 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,600 and they want to hold it back. I don't know, but I hope 95 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:57,000 that it's a legitimate law enforcement purpose and it isn't just in confidence at this 96 00:07:57,079 --> 00:08:01,759 point, because, like you said, I left that press conference more confused 97 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:05,720 about what was going on than when I started it. Our listeners were the 98 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:11,199 same way. We have over twenty thousand followers on two different Facebook pages, 99 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:18,319 Colonial Parkway Murders and mind Over Murder this podcast, and our listeners were so 100 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:22,759 baffled they were like, is this part of the Colonial Parkway murders or not? 101 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:28,160 And actually the announcement that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior has been identified as the 102 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:35,799 killer of these three individuals confirms that the Colonial Parkway murders series is real, 103 00:08:37,399 --> 00:08:41,360 and that this couple, Robin Edwards and David Knobling, we now have identified 104 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:48,120 their killer. People were asking us why are they calling this by another name? 105 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,759 Even my partner Pamela, who is not following the case as closely as 106 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:58,679 Kristin and I are, she finally watched the press conference with me about ten 107 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,320 pm that Monday night, and she said, why are they not calling this 108 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:09,759 case by its proper name, the name that hundreds of thousands of people in 109 00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:13,679 the area. No press people contacted us afterwards, and they were like, 110 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,960 they didn't even make it clear what it was that they were going to talk 111 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:26,200 about, which actually held down reduced the number of press people who showed up 112 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,080 for the press conference because it wasn't very clear what the heck it was they 113 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,320 were going to be talking about that day. Yeah, it was a mistake, 114 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:39,399 and it is an anomaly to have a press conference led by a press 115 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:45,320 liaison officer rather than by the lead law enforcement agencies that are involved in the 116 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,080 investigation. I believe that they might have spoken later, but to lead off 117 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:56,480 with just by a press officer and then to refuse to answer specific questions about 118 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:03,120 the investigation. When you have a case that is clearly a deceased offender, 119 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:09,879 there's no reason to be hiding the ball anymore. When in solved cases they 120 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:13,799 said he would be charged if you were still alive, then there's no reason 121 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:16,559 to hide this stuff. That was my reaction to Jim, And I'm glad 122 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,039 you used that expression because I actually, when I finally got a chance to 123 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,399 watch the press conference hours later, for reasons that we can get into, 124 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,759 I said, why is the FBI playing hide the ball? M h there 125 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,080 deliberately, I believe, not being clear on what the heck it is we're 126 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,759 talking about. Well, Bill, I don't know if your conversations with the 127 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:46,519 FBI or these other investigatory agencies include more information about the case and the murder 128 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:50,440 of your sister and some of these other Colonial Parkway murders. And I know 129 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,320 if that's the case, and you're not allowed to share, you're not allowed 130 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,600 to share, and that's great, we'll certainly honor that. But the fact 131 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,919 that they did not notify you that this press conference was going to happen when 132 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:09,360 clearly it is related to the Colonial Parkway murders and your sister's case therefore is 133 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,519 an important part of this, and you as one of the surviving not only 134 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:20,440 one of the surviving family members, but as one of the leading liaisons between 135 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:24,480 law enforcement and the other families involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, you would 136 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:30,000 think that you would be put high on the priority list in terms of official 137 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:35,679 notification by law enforcement. We received no notification whatsoever. Now, I want 138 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:41,399 to be clear, the other families did receive notification. I pointedly did not. 139 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:46,919 So Kristin Dilly and I were not informed. The other families were informed. 140 00:11:48,799 --> 00:11:52,240 And when you say other families, you're talking about David Nobling and Robin 141 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,799 Edwards. Their families were informed. They did know about what was coming. 142 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:05,240 And Teresa Howe and other Colonial Parkway murders families in addition, yes, yes, 143 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:09,600 in addition with the exception of yourself, which to me is just absolutely 144 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:16,960 outrageous. I cannot understand how that could be a decision that is taken and 145 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:22,679 then executed when you have been such a pivotal part, particularly being a spokesperson 146 00:12:22,919 --> 00:12:26,600 across We spoke to you in twenty sixteen, we were the first to speak 147 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,600 to you on Real Crime profile about the case, and you always made sure 148 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:33,840 you talked about the other families as well, and I just cannot understand why 149 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,759 they would take that decision. And I'm horrified that you didn't know about the 150 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,720 detail of what was coming, because you have to psychologically prepare yourself as well. 151 00:12:43,759 --> 00:12:48,200 It's not just about getting the information, it's about being psychologically prepared for 152 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:50,480 what you're going to hear, what's going out to the public domain, what 153 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:54,360 other people are going to hear, and what they're going to ask you about. 154 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:00,240 This very odd thing happened with our longtime case agent. I've been dealing 155 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:03,080 with this agent for ten years. I hold her in very high regard. 156 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:09,200 She texted me at I think it's about seven point thirty on Monday morning. 157 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,519 Now I knew the press conference was coming. Kristin and I had received advance 158 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,399 word from other media sources. From media sources, yes, but no one 159 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:24,720 in law enforcement contacted us. I actually knew about the content of much of 160 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:31,559 the press conference several months in advance, again from a media contact, so 161 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:37,000 I actually knew suspects names and some of what was going to be said in 162 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:43,159 January, as early as October, and Kristin and I share information. Of 163 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,039 course, we wanted to be respectful of the process and not interfere with an 164 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,960 active investigation, and no announcement was being made at that point, so Kristin 165 00:13:54,039 --> 00:13:56,039 and I committed that we weren't going to say anything to anyone, and we 166 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,559 didn't. So we sat on this information for si several months. Moving back 167 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,600 to Monday morning, we received word and Kristin reached out to me and she 168 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,440 said, there's going to be a press conference on Monday. And then a 169 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:13,440 short while later, Kristin sent me some information and even Kristin Dilley, who's 170 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,799 an expert, she wrote to me a text and said, is this the 171 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:24,200 press conference we were waiting for? It doesn't even mention the Colonial Parkway murders 172 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,919 now, And so the confusion started from that point, and then back to 173 00:14:30,039 --> 00:14:33,919 the outreach from my FBI agent. She reached out to me and texted me 174 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,120 and asked me if I would be available to speak to her at one point 175 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,759 thirty PM. At this point, Kristin and I didn't know what time the 176 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:45,320 press conference was. And the only reason I'm getting into this level of detail 177 00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:50,120 is she then set a time to talk with me six hours in advance, 178 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:54,039 and we realized the press conference was going to be at the same time. 179 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:56,759 I actually texted the agent back and said, is your intention for us to 180 00:14:56,919 --> 00:15:03,080 watch the press conference together? She set up this call for one thirty pm. 181 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,159 Kristen comes back to me and says, you know, it appears the 182 00:15:05,159 --> 00:15:09,799 press conference is at one thirty pm. I texted the agent back and said, 183 00:15:09,039 --> 00:15:13,159 is your intention were supposed to watch this together? And she said no. 184 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:18,080 So we had a fantastic, in depth private briefing. Some of the 185 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,639 information. Jim, you know that I can't share at this point as a 186 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:24,440 family member and the brother of a murder victim. I do try to be 187 00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:28,320 respectful. I know they ding me on this every single time they can, 188 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:35,600 but I do actually try not to be a source of information before it's appropriate. 189 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,960 But we talked for two hours, the agent and nine. But that 190 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,519 was during the exact moment when the press conference is going on, And you 191 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:46,360 think to yourself later, huh, it's almost like they didn't want me to 192 00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:50,799 watch the press conference. Laurie, you were saying you were trying to reach 193 00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:56,159 me, or why was I radio silent during the press conference? You were 194 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:03,000 already texting about the conference. Yes, I found it very odd Bill that 195 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,279 I was trying to message you and putting stuff out on social media and seeing 196 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,600 your reaction, because for me, I just found it confusing. I posted 197 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,480 that on social media, just saying, somewhat confusing presser, but a suspect 198 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,720 has been identified. I wanted to get the information out there to help law 199 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,639 enforcement, but I was very confused. I was very distracted by what we 200 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:25,840 weren't hearing about and why it was being done in the way that it was, 201 00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:29,399 And now hearing that you were asked to speak at the exact time, 202 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,039 it just feels intentional to me, and I feel really uncomfortable. I've been 203 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,200 grinding my teeth. I hope listeners haven't heard that on the microphone, but 204 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,039 just hearing you say those things have been grinding my teeth, and just I 205 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,360 find it maddening because you could have that conversation with her at any other point, 206 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:48,799 and you have been a trusted person across all of this time. You've 207 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:52,720 always been respectful, in my opinion, and when there are things that cannot 208 00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:56,919 be discussed, you're very clear about that. So on the day that is 209 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,039 so important for you to hear information, you don't get the heads up about 210 00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:04,599 what's coming out. But then your time is being monopolized at the exact time 211 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,720 the rest of the world hearing what's going on. I don't know, Jim. 212 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:15,319 It just feels really uncomfortable. It feels deliberate, and I think I 213 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,720 have some clarity on it based on what Bill said and what you just said, 214 00:17:18,759 --> 00:17:22,599 Laura, and what Kristin said. I believe that it is probably a 215 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:29,720 deliberate attempt to keep Bill and Kristen from making any kind of public statements about 216 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:36,480 this case. That she was that this FBI agent was not authorized or didn't 217 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,000 want to say anything to Bill until it was actually made public, so that's 218 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,119 why she started the call at the same time as the press conference, and 219 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,000 that she did not she they singled out Bill as one of the family members 220 00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:53,640 and didn't give him any advance warning of what was going to that the press 221 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,359 conference was going to happen, or that what it was going to contain. 222 00:17:59,079 --> 00:18:02,640 They didn't want to give him any of that information in advance because they know 223 00:18:02,839 --> 00:18:07,559 he does a podcast and he is he does speak publicly about this case. 224 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:11,799 He wants to keep it in public's mind so that it puts pressure on law 225 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:17,160 enforcement to continue working the case. But he's always totally respectful in terms of 226 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,160 what when they say this can't go out, he doesn't let it go out, 227 00:18:19,279 --> 00:18:23,200 And so they shouldn't have put him in this category. They should have 228 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:29,480 treated him like the other victims' family members, and he should have been at 229 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:33,559 least given some advanced notice not only of the press conference, but advanced notice 230 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:37,359 of what it would contain, so that he would be able to prepare. 231 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,640 As you said, Laura, because this is a serious life event. This 232 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:45,759 is not just a game. And I don't like the fact that it appears 233 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:56,000 that she was playing games. The whole thing just feels very contrived and really 234 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,279 very manipulative. And as Bill and I were speaking, I was fortunately my 235 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:04,799 schedule at school allowed me to be off at a time when I could go 236 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,480 home and run this presser through my computer and then I could start doing all 237 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,319 the social media stuff that we do. And I called Bill as I was 238 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,920 speeding my way home to get here to watch this press conference, and we 239 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:26,400 were debating, do we maybe let the FBI agents call go to voicemail so 240 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,839 that he can watch the presser? Like, how are we going to deal 241 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,240 with that? And ultimately we decided it's better for him to take that call, 242 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,440 and I can always watch the press conference, which I did, and 243 00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:41,079 record it and transcribe it to send it to him later. But I really 244 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:45,440 don't like the fact that Bill was put in that position, because, as 245 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,119 you said, Jim, it's a major life event for him and he needed 246 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,599 to be able to watch it in real time and process it and ask questions. 247 00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:56,079 And I think the reason that she had him on the phone was so 248 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,720 that he couldn't watch it and couldn't ask questions at that point. And the 249 00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:04,119 weird thing is, I've been dealing with this agent for ten years and normally 250 00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:10,960 she texts me and we've talked I don't know hundreds, but it's probably we 251 00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:15,960 talk a lot, and she's been incredibly helpful and hard working and dedicated. 252 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:21,400 Our usual mo is. She texts me and says, can we talk? 253 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:27,039 And I do my damnedest to stop what I'm doing and call her immediately, 254 00:20:27,079 --> 00:20:30,920 a five minute turnaround kind of thing, because she's a very important person in 255 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:37,920 my world. She has information, not every single time, but she tells 256 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,559 me what's going on with my sister, Kathy Thomas, Rebecca Dowski, and 257 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:48,759 the other Colonial Parkway murder victims, what's going on, and especially with Kathy 258 00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:52,039 and Becky, So for her to reach out to me the first thing in 259 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:57,559 the morning to set up a call at one thirty pm. Even at the 260 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,240 moment I received the text and I wrote back and said, yes, of 261 00:21:02,279 --> 00:21:07,039 course, I thought to myself, since when are we setting up calls six 262 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:11,799 hours in advance? Bill. I just think it was deliberate. I think 263 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,319 that a decision was made somewhere. I don't know if it was her decision 264 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,920 or above her or another agency to keep you in the dark until that moment. 265 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:22,359 And that's why she called you, and that's why she spent two hours 266 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,160 on the phone with you so that you could get this information. But she 267 00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:30,480 deliberately did not want or somebody deliberately did not want you to have any information 268 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:36,279 at all about this press conference or about what they were going to say in 269 00:21:36,319 --> 00:21:40,880 advance. I think that's what it boils down to. Ill just weigh in 270 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,319 that you're not the enemy here, and I think that needs to be made 271 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,640 clear. You've never been the enemy. You've always been the person that's been 272 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,240 respectful everything I've seen of you over the years that i've known you, You've 273 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:56,400 always been very respectful of information and what goes out and when. And I 274 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,440 do think trust and confidence works both ways. That if you want to create 275 00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:03,480 trust and confidence, you have to put it into that person too, and 276 00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:07,640 I think that is unfortunately not the right way to do it. And to 277 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,759 put you in the dark of what other people are absorbing and understanding and put 278 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:17,519 you on the back foot. That really doesn't work well. And I think 279 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:22,200 the whole press conference unfortunately didn't really work well because the timeline you're trying to 280 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,240 get information out from the public. You want information from them to timeline this 281 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:30,920 individual. But there were just so many question marks. As to one of 282 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:37,720 the media people asked, can you explain how Alan Wade Wilmer Senior became known 283 00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:42,319 to you? No, said the press officer. And it was an immediate 284 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:47,920 shutdown, and it was stark. And look, there are times when you 285 00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:52,759 have to control information and the flow of information. But let's be clear, 286 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:57,799 this perpetrator is deceased. He is not alive. It's not about compromising a 287 00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:03,359 man hunt or an investigation that's ongoing. At this point. They're trying to 288 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:07,839 rely on the public and on both of you the same as us. Why 289 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,680 we want to talk about the case is to amplify it, to make sure 290 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,839 that people know about Alan Wade Wilmerth Senior. They know about who he is, 291 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,720 that he was on the water, he was a waterman, he was 292 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,359 a hunter, he had a truck, and we'll go into all of that, 293 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,680 but we want to put that information out there. You don't want people 294 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:29,079 to be puzzled or distracted by these other things going on. But I sense, 295 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,000 my read of it, why this press conference happened in this way is 296 00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:36,319 because there's some real ugly horror stories that lurk behind it. I e. 297 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,119 A man like Alan Wade Wilmerth Senor does not at the age of thirty three 298 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:48,880 just start attacking two people who are together, David and Robin and sexually assault 299 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,960 Robin. And that is never going to be the first offense. So there's 300 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,960 going to be lots of things that he most likely did before and lots of 301 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:03,559 things that And we know about one potential murder and of course there's information and 302 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:07,599 there's intelligence, but we do know about other cases that he was and one 303 00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:11,640 in particular where he was the prime suspect, and if that's what they're guarding, 304 00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:18,200 Unfortunately, they have to be more transparent being more transparent. Actually increases 305 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:22,519 trust and confidence from the public. It increases trust and confidence from the families. 306 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,119 This is my experience of twenty seven years working with families who say, 307 00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:32,160 we know sometimes human era happens. We know sometimes you get things wrong right, 308 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,440 But if you try and hide it, if you cover things up, 309 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,240 that does not sit well, and the cover up is worse than the actual 310 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:44,079 event itself. That's my experience of working with hundreds and hundreds of families. 311 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,599 So I can understand that you might feel on the back foot of things, 312 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,920 and I'm really sorry that happened, because you don't deserve that. Actually, 313 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:59,160 Bill, you've been a really incredible and tremendous spokesperson for not just your sister, 314 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,359 not just an advocate for Kathy and Becky, but for all the families. 315 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,000 And I've always thought incredibly highly of you for that. You've been a 316 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,920 tremendous advocate. So I'm sorry that there seems to be some kind of strategy 317 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,920 to keep you in the dark and to monopolize your time. I don't think 318 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,400 that's helpful a tool in this case. I was on a conference call with 319 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,880 the FBI investigators a couple of years ago, and I get exasperated from time 320 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,720 to time, and I'm not proud of that, and my mom wouldn't be 321 00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:30,519 terribly proud of me either, But I got so exasperated on one of those 322 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:36,759 calls. I actually said to this group of FBI investigators, since when does 323 00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:42,960 the brother of the murder victim become the enemy? Because that's sometimes how they 324 00:25:44,039 --> 00:25:49,519 treat me. Yeah, it shouldn't be, and that's why there should be 325 00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:57,759 a liaison officer that has your well being and your information as one of their 326 00:25:57,759 --> 00:26:04,640 priorities. And it's just it's irresponsible and not necessary. The thing is that, 327 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:12,839 obviously the information that you get from law enforcement isn't just information to you. 328 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,240 It isn't just news like it is to the general public. This is 329 00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:21,880 your family, Your sister was brutally murdered, and you still don't have answers, 330 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,519 and they should. Every person in law enforcement should understand your need to 331 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:33,079 know. So it's just very unfortunate you're listening to Mind over Murder. Will 332 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:41,480 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover 333 00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:47,279 Murder. I want to focus on something positive, which Kristin and I are 334 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:52,839 trying to strongly support. They have put out some pretty good information about Alan 335 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,039 Wade Wilmer Sr. As Laura was saying, he drove a very distinctive truck. 336 00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:00,400 He had a very distinctive boat, the Denny Wade. It was a 337 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,960 fishing boat with a big graphic on the side. He himself is a physically 338 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,519 very distinctive man. He's got average looks with a neatly trimmed beard. And 339 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:14,319 they had a really good age progression of photographs, which I think might be 340 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:18,119 a Virginia driver's license pictures, but they were really good. You could see 341 00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:21,960 what he looked like back in the eighties, all the way back through to 342 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,000 age sixty three when he passed. One thing I think they missed, though, 343 00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:33,440 was he's a very distinctively short individual. He's five foot five inches tall, 344 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,680 which I think is five inches less than the average man. He's very 345 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:42,319 muscular, so I almost picture a dude that looks like pop By the sailor 346 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:48,000 man driving this very distinctive truck. He's got a very distinctive boat, and 347 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:52,240 then he himself has these very distinctive physical characteristics. What Kristin and I are 348 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,680 trying to do on Mind Over Murder is really push out on our podcast but 349 00:27:57,799 --> 00:28:03,000 especially on our social media media platforms mind of a murder and Colonial Parkway murders 350 00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:10,559 on Facebook and other platforms, these photographs and this information, because the Virginia 351 00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:14,680 State Police and the FBI now are asking for help, they're trying to timeline 352 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,400 this man, especially back in the nineteen eighties when these murders were happening, 353 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,759 and they're asking people to come forward. One of the things that Kristin and 354 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:26,279 I are trying to do is people are commenting and telling stories, including some 355 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:33,119 scary stories about Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. And we're trying to push those 356 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,000 folks respectfully. Don't just talk about it to Bill and Kristen on a social 357 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,480 media page, or don't just post it on your own page. Please get 358 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:47,519 this information to law enforcement, call the FBI or the State Police Virginia State 359 00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:51,519 Police hotlines. Well. Also, Bill, we should focus on the offender's 360 00:28:51,599 --> 00:28:55,599 behavior because Laura and I this is what we do. This is our bread 361 00:28:55,599 --> 00:29:00,240 and butter, and we would expect that this guy had a number of precursor 362 00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:06,000 crimes that were committed in the late seventies early eighties, crimes like stalking and 363 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:11,640 peeping and maybe breaking and entering or harassing people. And these kinds of things 364 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:17,720 may many times be dismissed as unimportant by the public, but and they may 365 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:21,519 sometimes be dismissed as unimportant by the police, but they are incredibly important to 366 00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:25,319 build the timeline of this guy and his offenses. As I think Lauras said 367 00:29:25,319 --> 00:29:27,240 earlier, again, he didn't just start at the age of thirty three of 368 00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:33,599 abducting, raping and killing people. He actually started earlier, probably in his 369 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,759 late adolescence, and he was probably committing these kind of precursor crimes. These 370 00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:44,920 are things that are important. So if you have any history of interacting with 371 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,319 this guy, this five foot five guy named Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, and 372 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:55,240 whether it's in your neighborhood or in your in a business dealing, or on 373 00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:59,799 the water, or in his tree service company or on the road, anything 374 00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:03,519 you might have to tell the police about him and his behavior, all of 375 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:08,559 that is incredibly important. We would all encourage you to call the FBI tipline 376 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:15,480 or the state police email tip line so that you can put this information into 377 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:21,079 official records so that then they can build a better timeline. And even if 378 00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:25,440 you've reported it, please re report it because often these things get lost, 379 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,400 and as Jim said, extensive experience of working these cases, oftentimes those who 380 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:36,960 are peeping tom's or loitering or standing near you leering at you, making you 381 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,880 feel uncomfortable, or obscene phone calls, exposing yourself. These sorts of things 382 00:30:42,039 --> 00:30:48,480 can oftentimes be not just ignored by you, and you minimize it and think 383 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,359 it's not anything major, But it's a gateway crime to something much more serious. 384 00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:56,599 And often it is minimized by law enforcement, and I will say particularly 385 00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:00,839 male officers, because often it will not happen to them, and therefore they 386 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,440 don't understand how terrifying it is when you're a lone female and that happens to 387 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:10,519 you. And this guy being along the waterway. We did talk about Kathy 388 00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:15,000 and Becky and did the perpetrator have a boat for example, we did discuss 389 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:21,960 that specifically, didn't we So again, it's really interesting how transient he was, 390 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,440 but he did have anchor points and he did use the boat. He 391 00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:30,519 was a hunter, hunting equals stalking. He had a tree service business, 392 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:33,599 so that means he's part of the street furniture. He could be somewhere and 393 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:38,000 people don't necessarily think, oh, this guy. So it seems to me 394 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,519 that he used all of these things in the commission of his offenses, and 395 00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:48,279 I think it's really important that people do put that information back into the FBI 396 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,240 or Virginia State Police. And the other thing to say is that when I 397 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:55,960 was listening to that press conference, yes, I believe that he had an 398 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,279 extensive history and he would have had contact with law enforcement. And then it 399 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:06,279 became known. I read Blaine Pardu's book blog that he recently put out about 400 00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:09,279 the book and about him and his books A Special kind of Evil. I 401 00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:14,559 know you know the book well, but page two oh four he talked about 402 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:20,279 Wilma being a prime suspect in the Cassandra Haley and Keith Call murders in April 403 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,799 nineteen eighty eight. That for me was just exactly what I see so often 404 00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:31,640 in cases where a suspect is overlooked, even though there were some very important 405 00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:37,119 behaviors and information about him. And one of those things and we talked about 406 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:43,960 this with Kathy and Becky how the perpetrator approached them. We heard from Blaine 407 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,640 Pardu that Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior was approaching couples in cars along the parkway. 408 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,200 He was aggressive, he was confronting them, He was banging on windows. 409 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:57,640 One particular event, he bangs on the window. He thinks it's two 410 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,720 women together, but it's actually a guy and a woman. The guy had 411 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:05,039 long hair, and he turns around, but he said, a you girl's 412 00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:08,000 having fun, and then when he sees it's a bloke, he then backs 413 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:14,279 off. These are exactly the types of behaviors that we would expect as precursors, 414 00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:19,240 and his truck was called in to law enforcement. These events were called 415 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,759 into law enforcement, and after Cassandra and Keith went missing, he was under 416 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:28,880 surveillance and there was drive by surveillance going on, and actually law enforcement turned 417 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,680 up spoke to him when he was spray painting his truck and vacuuming and cleaning 418 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,920 it out and painting it. They felt that he was a prime suspect. 419 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,079 They went off and got a warrant because they wanted to search his trailer, 420 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,799 and in the trailer they find weapons, handcuffs, pornography. These are all 421 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:52,240 things that Jim and I would see as absolute critical information, red flag behavior. 422 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:59,079 And a witness also placed him at the scene where Cassandra and Keith went 423 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,480 missing. So they've got a four pronged approach, if you will, and 424 00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:08,679 approach and four pronged key behaviors about this individual, and they bring in a 425 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:15,119 polygrapher, an experienced polygrapher, who they say eliminated him as not being involved 426 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,360 in the murder. I just find that absolutely staggering, given all that we 427 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,199 know, and we can put ourselves back in time and say, maybe it 428 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:30,039 wasn't as well known about stalking and predatory behavior and sexual violence, serial killers 429 00:34:30,039 --> 00:34:32,840 and so forth, But I got a saven on a basic level, Jim 430 00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:37,199 of being a police officer or a detective, these things should have raised red 431 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,920 flags and it should never have been let's eliminate him based on a lie detector 432 00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:45,800 test. I think, actually to credit the fbis at the time they actually 433 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,599 felt like he was a good suspect and continued to feel that way even though 434 00:34:50,599 --> 00:34:53,599 he got washed out. But I will say this bill that behavior that Laura 435 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:59,119 just outlined with that one couple in their car where he banged on the window 436 00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:01,519 and said, are you girls having fun? And then was startled to find 437 00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:05,360 that one of them was a guy, and then he took off, I 438 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,400 think that's a direct tie to your sister, Kathy and Becky's case. The 439 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,719 fact that he would approach a car with two girls in it and then retreat 440 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:15,960 when he found out it was a girl and a guy. To me, 441 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,800 your sister and her girlfriend were in that car together, and they were in 442 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,960 their car together, and this could very well be how he approached at that 443 00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:30,840 point, banging on the door. Your sister may have lowered the window. 444 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:32,440 It may have told him to get out of there, and that could have 445 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,119 been the beginning. And the fact that he had weapons, that he was 446 00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:40,679 a hunter. We know that he had knives because he used a knife to 447 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,960 kill them. We also believed that he had guns because he was able to 448 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:52,599 control two adults who would have fought back. But by controlling one person in 449 00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:55,840 a couple, you can then control the other. In other words, you 450 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,360 can threaten one person and if the other person doesn't anything, then that person, 451 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:05,119 the first person, will be killed, And that is a good way 452 00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:08,920 to threaten a couple. He had weapons and handcuffs. Jim in handcuffs, 453 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,559 which, yeah, we all thought that at the point that during the course 454 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,960 of the murders of your sister and her girlfriend, that there was a high 455 00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:24,920 likelihood that he had controlled one of them first and threatened her and then kept 456 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:31,119 got her tied up somehow, and then went after the other one. Obviously, 457 00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:35,199 handcuffs are a way to do that, to accomplish that, and the 458 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,800 fact that he had those cuffs should have been incredibly important to the investigators and 459 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:45,000 may very well be why he was able to pull off these double homicides. 460 00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:49,559 What shocking, though, in what was baffling to Kristen and me and the 461 00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:53,199 other Colonial Parkway murders families was none of this was mentioned that the press conference. 462 00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:59,800 As you mentioned, Laura, when a reporter asked, when did this 463 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:06,280 man, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior move on to law enforcement's radar, they refuse 464 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,000 to answer the question. Now, he was suspect number one, that's what 465 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:15,800 the agents called it in the disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, and somehow 466 00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:22,599 that was never covered in this press conference. So this is a situation where 467 00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:27,320 those of us that are close to the details of the Colonial park rammerders, 468 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,679 which I know is not most people. Those of us that know some of 469 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,119 the detail, and we don't claim to be as expert as law enforcement. 470 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,599 We're all looking at each other after we finally have a chance to watch the 471 00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,880 press conference, Who're like, what the heck was that and why don't they 472 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,880 mention the fact that Wilmer was suspect number one in Keith Colin Cassandra Haley's disappearance. 473 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,719 Well, Bill, all I can say is I hope. I just 474 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,920 hope that's because they have positive information about a connection and that they don't want 475 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,719 to release it yet, but they're going to plan on release it soon. 476 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:04,639 I just hope that's the reason, because if it's not, you know, 477 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,239 it's just irresponsible, because we do want to find out if they're connected, 478 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,719 and if people are out there and have information that we'd connect it to keep 479 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,199 call and Cassandra Haley's murders, then they should be calling for people to do 480 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,679 that. And it's just it's ridiculous to not call for people to do that 481 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:27,440 when we know that he was a prime suspect in that very double homicide, 482 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,320 and the murders were two years apart. We're not talking about in different parts 483 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:36,280 of the world, different countries. We're talking about in the same geographic region. 484 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,239 And that's what's staggering to me that it makes me feel uncomfortable that they're 485 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,920 hiding things. And if you say no, I'm not going to talk about 486 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,559 it, you can't be caught later on. You can't be caught out. 487 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,159 So that's how I felt about it. And I hope Jim in good faith 488 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,760 that they're holding things back because it's a key part of the investigation. I 489 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,440 really hope that's true. But let's not forget this guy is deceased. This 490 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,679 isn't about anything other than this guy's dead. Let's properly timeline him. And 491 00:39:05,679 --> 00:39:07,920 they should be trying to create trust and confidence in the public that we're trying 492 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,159 to do our job and we need your help. And it should just be 493 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,320 straight up clear what's required, and they should be saying the truth. I 494 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,480 don't understand why they would hold that back. And this geographic area Bill, 495 00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:27,360 when we've spoken before, you said that his house was in where he died, 496 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,119 was in his house in Lancaster County. I think you mentioned that it 497 00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:34,599 was an hour and fifteen minutes away from the Colonial Parkway murders. But I 498 00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:37,519 wonder what that would be by boat. I assume you were thinking by car 499 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,559 or were you thinking by boat? And could would it be easily accessible by 500 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:47,280 boat? It would still be a lengthy bit of travel by boat. We 501 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:54,320 understand now that Wilmer lived on his boat and docked it in Gloucester and Hampton, 502 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,199 Virginia, And as Kristen can tell you, these places are minutes away, 503 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:07,360 so he'd come down for the oystering season and he would park his boat 504 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:13,239 and then work that area. That's actually something Virginia State Police and FBI are 505 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,960 looking for information if anyone docked their boat near his. So that boat would 506 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,639 be the Denny D. E. N I. Wade Wade and it's a 507 00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:27,519 wooden boat, so it would be distinctive, as well as his car, 508 00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:31,599 which is the nineteen sixty six Dodge Fargo pickup truck that's blue green in color 509 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:39,000 with the license plate em raw. Anybody who was around that area at that 510 00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:43,360 time or on the water at that time, who interacted with him in any 511 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,880 way, even if it was totally insignificant in your mind, it may be 512 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,440 important putting him in a particular place at a particular time, giving him access 513 00:40:51,519 --> 00:40:58,119 to these victims that we know were murdered in cases that are still unresolved. 514 00:40:58,559 --> 00:41:00,559 It's worth al say, just playing out that he was married, he had 515 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:06,960 two children and It's always a lot of my work has been centered around interviewing 516 00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:10,719 the ex wives and understanding from the partners and ex wives, the children, 517 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:16,679 those who know that individual the best they can really add information into the case. 518 00:41:17,199 --> 00:41:22,760 And it really concerned me when I heard from Kerry Rawson, who is 519 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,679 the daughter of Denis Raider. Jim when I was at the FBI, spent 520 00:41:25,679 --> 00:41:30,639 a lot of time talking to the agents involved in the Denis Raider case. 521 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:32,920 People know him by his horrible monika, which I'm not going to use. 522 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,960 But Kerry, when I interviewed her, told me so much about what was 523 00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:42,159 going on behind closed doors. And actually she told me the FBI never interviewed 524 00:41:42,199 --> 00:41:46,760 her about what was happening in terms of the domestic violence, the coercive control, 525 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:52,880 all that they were victims too. And I remember distinctly asking the agents 526 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,760 at the time, does he have a history of domestic violence? What was 527 00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:00,800 going on in terms of his wife, his children? And they said there 528 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,119 was no abuse, and Kerry couldn't believe it. That's what I was told. 529 00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:08,360 So again, we now know about coercive control. We now know these 530 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,679 are power and control related crimes, and so it's really important that I hope 531 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,719 law enforcement are speaking to the family in order to find out more about the 532 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,320 timeline, specifically places Kerry told me all this information about Dennis Raider of places 533 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:28,280 she went with him, who now she thinks he was stalking other victims. 534 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,079 That intelligence and information is so important in the timeline, So it is worth 535 00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:37,800 saying there may be other girlfriends ex girlfriends that we don't know about, but 536 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:43,480 they're really important of building a picture of this individual because I have no doubt 537 00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:47,719 he would be prolific, absolutely prolific, because of the fantasy base of his 538 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,519 levels of perpetration. And I know it's not just him either, it's his 539 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:59,559 brother too, And there are some very key pieces of intelligence about Keith Wilmer, 540 00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:04,719 the brother. So again there's been some confusion in some cases about which 541 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,920 brother might be involved. Therefore, if you know anything about Keith Wilmer or 542 00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:14,800 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, then please do make sure you forward that information to 543 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,599 law enforcement. Jim and Laura. While I have you here, I did 544 00:43:17,639 --> 00:43:22,960 want to ask about an important, interesting piece of information that sac Brian Dugan 545 00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:28,119 put forward at the end of his time at the podium. He did give 546 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,039 all of the information that they are looking for. With regard to Alan Wade 547 00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:35,760 Wilmer Senior, he also gave all of the tip line numbers, but he 548 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,719 ended with an interesting coda, and I wanted to get your thought on it, 549 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,280 so I'm going to quote from sac Dugan here. He said, we 550 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:49,920 recognize relationships and loyalties change over time as to people and their perspectives. There 551 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,840 are occasions where people who may have had knowledge of a crime do not feel 552 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:58,400 comfortable coming forward with information. This may have been due to relationships with the 553 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,880 persons involved, or out of concer learned for their own safety, reputation, 554 00:44:01,039 --> 00:44:05,920 or standing amongst friends. Even though mister Wilmer is deceased, we want you 555 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,480 to know it is not too late to come forward. Who might he be 556 00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:12,920 speaking to. Would that be the brother, the ex wife? Who is 557 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,280 this so? Yeah, family members, relatives, the people that he was 558 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,239 in a relationship with, people who live next door to him who might have 559 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,920 been afraid of him, people who worked with him, people who just interacted 560 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:30,280 with him socially, everybody. What they're trying to say is, look back 561 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,679 in the day, maybe you had some kind of loyalty to him. He's 562 00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:37,199 not around it anymore, and we know he is a serial killer, so 563 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,039 please come forward. That's I think what they're trying to say there. And 564 00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:45,119 I think it's really important that anybody out there, especially people who were related 565 00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:47,840 to him, who could help, would be doing the world a great service. 566 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,719 And if they don't help, they'd be won't doing the world a great 567 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,719 disservice. And the victims and their families and perpetrates is like him, a 568 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,320 frightening They are terrifying, and they terrify and terrorize the people in their intimate 569 00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:07,960 lives too. So oftentimes when someone stays quiet, it's out of fear. 570 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,199 Actually, sometimes it might be loyalty, yes, but oftentimes I see with 571 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,719 domestic violence and coercive control, it's fear. And then unfortunately it gets into 572 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:21,119 being concerned about judgment. Why didn't you come forward earlier, and then feeling 573 00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:23,840 like you might be blamed or judged? And I always say, absolutely not. 574 00:45:24,599 --> 00:45:28,760 Why would you be blamed or judged? It's not your actions. You 575 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,320 won't be held responsible for somebody else's behavior. And I say that very clearly 576 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,519 because oftentimes people do hold women accountable for men's behavior. This is a very 577 00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:42,280 prolific and dangerous man, and I have no doubt he would have used coercive 578 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,440 tactics on other people around him, and he would have been probably quite frightening 579 00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:51,039 to be around. But maybe he has charm too, and the charm ability 580 00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:55,480 we mustn't overlook that either. So yes, I would imagine family members do 581 00:45:55,559 --> 00:45:59,960 know some things. They may not know all of it. And it sounds 582 00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:04,760 like he died a lonely death in a house on his own where no one's 583 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,599 saying, oh, we miss him, or he didn't turn up for X 584 00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:10,960 or why. So it sounds like there's some distancing in the family there. 585 00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:15,480 I don't know why, but that could be part of the story here. 586 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:20,519 Kristin, do you mind giving that tip information before we go? Absolutely, 587 00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:24,559 for anyone who has tips regarding Alan Wade Wilmers Senior, please call one eight 588 00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:30,519 hundred car FBI. You can submit a tip online at tips dot FBI dot 589 00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:37,559 gov. You can also contact the Virginia State Police via email at Questions at 590 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:44,199 VSP dot Virginia dot gov and we'll include that information in our show notes for 591 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,440 Mind Over Murder. Jim and Laura, it has been a real pleasure and 592 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,239 a privilege having you here on Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for 593 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,159 joining us today. Thank you, yeah, thank you for your time. 594 00:46:54,199 --> 00:46:58,599 And I hope that there's more good news to come because this is your life, 595 00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:01,559 Bill, and I know you want your sister's case. I'm Becky's all 596 00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:06,119 of them resolved, and I feel that the answers are there, So I 597 00:47:06,159 --> 00:47:09,400 hope next time we talk there be better news for you as well. And 598 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,159 I am sorry about the way that you've been treated because even now you're trying 599 00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:17,119 to get information to help law enforcement, and I applaud you for that. 600 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,559 So thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to this episode 601 00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:36,079 of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is 602 00:47:36,119 --> 00:47:42,239 a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill 603 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,639 Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoir. Our theme 604 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:52,840 music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl 605 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:57,679 Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 606 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,239 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and 607 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,800 finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 608 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,400 Thank you for listening. To mind over murder,