Welcome back everyone to a new episode. If you were wrong with Molly Hemingway
and David Harsani, just a reminder, if you'd like to email the show,
please do so at radio at the Federalist dot com. We'd love to
hear from you. So for the second week week in a row, Molly,
I have usually take notes on what we're going to talk about. Sometimes
it's a bit of a stretch. I don't know what we're going to talk
about now. I lost track of all the things we needed to talk about.
So I think it's going to be a bit of a free wheeling one.
But maybe we should start with the news of you know, the president
almost being killed by an assassin. So can you tell me, like,
where you were when you got the news. I was just I'm where I
always. I was home, No, you know, actually I was out.
I was on my way to ride my bike actually, and I saw
some some like chatter going on about something, and I just assumed it was
the usual hysterical nothing going on, and then found out that it was actually
something quite quite momentous and in a weird way. When you you know,
I lived through nine to eleven all this stuff, and so did you you
know, like you know, it's hard to sort of grasp at the time
what's going on or but this is a major historical event, right, I
mean, this is the last time the president was shot. Was you know,
I was a little boy, you know what I mean. It's it's
it's something, really, that picture's iconic. I guess we'll talk about that
and everything. I don't even know where to start with this, I guess
I because just when you said the little boy thing, it reminds me that
I remember the day that Reagan was shot. I was young, like in
kinderk his first grade, and I went to a Lutheran school that was across
the street from my from the personage where my dead, you know, my
dad's pastor, and the principal of the school asked me to run home get
an update, and then run back and give him the update. And I
kept doing it like three times. And I always think of it as my
first reporting assignment, even though I was just like going home watching TV and
coming back and saying it. But I always wonder if that like shaped what
I became. That's interesting. It is weird, isn't it, how quickly
things we know about things now in the old days, like it was a
word of mouth, someone had to come tell you. It's not like you
had constant you didn't have your phone right there, no phone, no,
not even the TV. You know, there was no I mean maybe there
were CNM, but not a lot of people had it. There was no
twenty four hour news. Basically for listening to the radio, they broke in
and told you, and then you would tell other people. So it was
really a very different environment. Yeah. Oh, Mark told me he saw
this tweet about how someone wished there were a podcast that gave news in real
time during breaking news, and someone was like, radio, You've just described
radio. Okay, if I can do my I know it's not the most
important thing. But where I was I was. I think it's interesting because
I was at this Lutheran conference called Issues et cetera. It's the podcast that
I was talking about, which is so fun. I will have you know
that I was bombarded with compliments for David Hersani at this conference. I mean,
everybody loves you. Mark and I were just getting a kick out of
it because people just kept up, kept coming up to us and telling us
how much they absolutely love David Hersani. So I love it, thank you
very much. I just doesn't feel like it out there these days, but
I thank you for anyone who said that to you. But we were at
a dinner break at this conference and someone came up and said President Trump has
been shot, and I just couldn't believe it. And then a bunch of
other people also came up. But we were about to do divine service,
which you know, our our service with communion and everything. So I just
kind of made a decision. I'm gonna I'm just gonna go to church,
hear the sermon, pray, receive the sacrament, and then I will kind
of figure out what's going on. I'm glad I did. And we had
beautiful prayers, both like generic prayers for protection from people who wish harm and
then specifically for President Trump. And I will say I almost felt like I
was in a bit of shock for a while about it. I couldn't believe
I've been technically predicting something like this for at least you know, the earliest
I can remember doing it is December twenty twenty three. I warned that the
left seemed to be engaged in assassination prep. And when I said it,
I got a lot of feedback from people who agreed, and so I'm not
totally shocked, but I kind of felt like I was in shock after it.
I just couldn't believe. And then everything that we found out about it
since then has made it more horrified. Right. I think you probably agree,
or we've probably spoken about this. When events happen, we usually give
it a little breathing room before, you know, to find out what happened
before you know. Everyone always these days on social media jump to conclusions.
But I think that no matter I initially thought to myself, no matter what
we learn, it is clear that the rhetoric, if you keep telling people
that someone is hitler, they're going to start believing you at some point.
And maybe it's just alone or crazy who might believe you, but someone's going
to believe you. Do you know what I'm saying, Like you're I don't
know if it's an assassination prep or not, I'm you know whatever. I
didn't want to get into that, but I do want to say that people
who tell me that rhetoric has nothing to do with it because the guy is
a Republican or the guy doesn't have any kind of coherent political outlook. That's
not really the point of it all. And anyway, so that was my
first thought. I'm like, you keep calling someone hitler. Someone's going to
try to take out Hitler. I would want if it was really Hitler,
I would want to take out Hitler, you know. And so I was
bothered by that. Let's talk to talk about the moment though, and how
Trump reacted. I know, like people have been talking about this all week,
but I think it was I'm not a fan of Donald Trump, you
know, I always say it, but there's no way anyone watching that couldn't
be impressed by his poise and the way he reacted. I assume you agree
with that. I just can't stop thinking about it. And my husband,
who's more like you on this, was saying that what struck him is that
one of the big complaints about Donald Trump is that like he's a coward,
you know, he's a selfish coward. And to see how he handled that
moment at a time when almost I mean possibly like everyone I know, almost
everyone I know would have been absolutely losing it, and that he had this
presence of mind to reassure the country, reassure the crowd, like Mark was
saying that he thinks that the behavior he showed in the immediate aftermath probably saved
lives, both in terms of the panic of the crowd, but also preventing
riots or other horrific response or other bad response. It was he really rose
to the moment. He showed courage and the kind of courage that very few
other humans would be able to show in that moment. Yeah, I think
that's right. I think he understand I'm not saying this, you know a
lot. I'm not saying this in a negative way, but he is a
showman and he understands moments, and you know, he understood that moment right
away, you know, instinctively humped his fist. Told the Secret Service story.
There would have been nothing wrong with him just running off the stage with
them, because that's what politicians do. We now know what was going on,
but he has no clue. They could be second gunman. You have
no idea in the moment what's going on, and so how he you know,
I have you know, I have nothing praise for him for that moment.
I think it was it was an iconic and people over use that word,
but I think that's an iconic moment, and then all sorts of things
related to that, the American flag in the background, the blue sky,
the fist, the blood streaming down the face, the providence. And I
don't believe in providence, but the providence involved with him not getting his head
blown off is just we're talking millimeters here, so that is, you know,
it's definitely pushed me maybe a millimeter over in that direction. Well do
you remember those stories about George Washington's army being able to get out of New
York because of a mysterious fog that protected them. Oh yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's kind of what it felt like. It was,
Okay, we never get fog. We're getting fogg. Now it's going to
protect the Continental Army. It was. It's just something I just keep thinking
about in camp. Yeah. I don't know, all right, so let's
talk. I mean, as you know, I'm very resistant. I try
to beat to any kind of conspiratorial thinking about stuff. We have a big
problem here because the Secret Service, like virtually every other organization in government and
institution in American life, sucks at their job. No one has been fired
yet, no one has taken responsibility really yet. That is the director who
didn't resign, says that she took she takes responsibility, and by taking responsibility,
she's doing nothing, and that's how you know she's taken responsibility. Today
she said that Secret Service people did not go on the sloping roof that's my
yards away from the president because it's kind of a dangerous place for Secret Service
agent to be. And I'm like, that can't be right. That has
to be out of context. No one would say that, And yeah,
she did, that was her excuse. Meanwhile, the snipers were on a
slope being rufe who took out the assassin. Right, Yes, So this
situation is horrific actually because it's not just about what was allowed to happen or
what was done, but what that means going forward. So we have a
number of different things. A. We do have people that various reporters at
the Federalists have they've talked to about requests from the Trump team for bolstered security
and that being not allowed. Now the Secret Service says that's not true.
Okay, you also have reporting from other outlets showing that, in fact,
that it does seem to be the case, and that to make matters worse,
security that normally would have been with President Trump was moved to First Lady
Doctor Jill Biden, who announced a counter programming event after President Trump announced the
reley. There you have the Secret Service saying that it wasn't their fault that
they failed to protect the president, but that the local law enforcement didn't do
their job. You have the Secret Service saying that they created a perimeter around
the president that had a mysterious carve out so that it actually looks like a
pac Man, you know how it's like pac Man is a circle head,
but then there's a you know, pie shape out, So that's what their
security perimeter was, and mysteriously the pie shape absence in the perimeter is where
the shooter was located. You have that, You have video evidence of dozens,
if not hundreds, of bystanders calling out the shooter. You have reports
of them notifying law enforcement about the shooter. You have law enforcements saying they
saw the shooter and retreated or so. It's just for well over a minute,
and the snipers who took out the shooter did not shoot him until he
shot the President, which is very weird, and we have no answers about
who either authorized that or allowed that or prevented quicker action. And you see
also that a lot of people in corporate media are trying to just move on
from this when it's just to the casual observer, including the casual observers who
were there. This was a completely preventable assassination attempt. And let's not forget
that Corey Comparatoy was murdered, was killed by this shooter in front of his
family, protecting his family, and two other people I believe were seriously injured
in this. And so the Secret Service dirrector being oh, actually, what
was that? Maerkus said he had one hundred percent confidence in the Secret Service,
one hundred percent confidence they just narrowly escaped, putting us all in a
civil war. And he has one hundred percent confidence. I mean, what
would it take to get to ninety nine percent? I mean that was actually
one of the first conversations I'd had with my wife. Imagine if he had
been hit, you know, God forbid, and what does the world look
like? You're saying, imagine if he had been killed. I'm sorry,
what if he had been killed? It would have been just I don't even
know where we go from there, you know, I just want to say,
you know how people say, you know, you had one job.
Secret Service literally has one job in any time. If there's ever an incident
where incidents where someone who is being protected by Secret Service has someone to you
know, the candidate or politician has a shot taken at them, people should
automatically be resigning because that's the one job they have to prevent that from happening.
So, you know, I don't think has anyone ever resigned in this
administration who has botched something. For instance, to Afghanistan withdraw, it was
a massive, massive mess, and it was a deadly mess, and there
were all kinds of mistakes made because in my view at least Joe Biden was
doing it for political reasons and had you know, a timing issue with it,
and he put people's lives in danger. No one resigned, Not one
person resigned, No one lost their job, and so far no one's lost
their job here. It's just amazing to me. So I don't know where
does it go. I mean, do you think there's going to be you
were saying, I think you you know, you were saying that certain people
shouldn't be Maybe you could talk about how you don't think certain people should be
investigating this and who should be investigating it? Warmer, sunnier days are calling
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off your next month while your subscription is active. Yes, and now you
have a situation. You cannot have less trust in the permanent DC bureaucracy right
now, and specifically as it relates to law enforcement and intel agencies. Just
take, for example, the Department of Justice FBI, which were leaders in
the Russia collusion scam, in which a false bought by Hillary Clinton and the
DNC claim that Donald Trump was secretly a Russian asset was pushed out to media
and other allies of the Democrat Party for years and they were behind it.
The FBI was behind it. Other three letter agencies were behind it. You
had a false Russia narrative. You know, obviously Russia's for one hundred years
been involved in meddling in our elections. But that was way over amplified to
the point of just complete lying in the twenty sixteen election by people at the
CIA and other high level intel agencies in order to further promulgate this false claim
about Trump secretly being a Mastermind spy. In twenty twenty, a year after
the FBI had obtained and knew that Hunter Biden's laptop was real full of information
about the Biden family business and its dealings with corrupt overseas regimes, laid the
groundwork for claiming that this that if this came out, that it was Russian
disinformation. And when it did come out, they claimed it was Russian dis
information. The infamous letter signed by fifty one Intel officials saying that Hunter Biden's
laptop detailing information about Joe Biden's family business was fake and they knew it was
false. So, in this context and a thousand other things, by the
way, the idea that Christopher Ray or Merrick Garland, oh sorry, let's
actually just go a little bit further here. Christopher Ray and Merrick Garland have
allowed themselves to be used by Joe Biden to raid mar Lago, the President's
home, to prosecute, to make to have these political prosecutions go forward as
part of the Democrat effort to remove Donald Trump from the ballot, imprison him,
bankrupt him, and worse. So, the FBI is going to look
into the shooting? Are you as serious? Like the idea, yeah,
that Merritt Garland or Chris Ray could have anything to do with that or anyone
at the DC headquarters of FBI or DJ is absurd. Now. I don't
even think anyone at the FBI should actually be in charge of investigating this,
given their corruption. But I would say, if anybody were to take over,
I think that Western Pittsburgh based US attorney that might be the best place
for the investigation to run. I mean, do you think these people who
have made it their life's goal to destroy Donald Trump should be in charge of
investigating a mysteriously allowed assassination attempt? I mean, this would be one of
the one of the jobs for a national police force, right, one of
the few things. Like they're involved in so many things they shouldn't be,
and yet they can't be trusted. I'm not really sure who has the ability
the resources to figure stuff like this out, really do a thorough investigation.
Who isn't kind of DC based but you're saying in Pittsburgh. I mean,
clearly someone needs to do it. It needs to be transparent. Their heads
need to roll because no matter what happened, something went wrong. For sure,
like we know that something went wrong. That's not in question. It's
just who's a fault is what's a question? Yeah? I agree with you.
I mean, first of all, no one's going to trust trust what
they have to say. I mean, even now, they're not taking responsibility.
So my question is, though, considering all you said about all the
you know, Russia collusions. So but even more than that, the entire
since the disastrous debate with Biden, and it's always been this has been going
on for three years. They've amped up the Trump is Hitler talk. You
know, Republicans are fascist. Why is everyone wishing Orange Hitler quick recovery?
It doesn't make any sense to me. Right, if we really thought this
person was going to do all these horrible things, then you should be happy
that someone tried to take him out. I know this sounds horrible, But
if I really thought Hitler was going to take over here, cheering on someone
who would take him out, you know, beating him at the ballot box,
either they don't believe what they're saying, which I think is true for
most of them, or the whole thing's just a ridiculous you know, I
don't know what to call it, just this hyper hyperbole, right, and
tearing the country apart in ways it shouldn't be. When you were talking about
if Democrats were correct that Donald Trump is literally Hitler, why would you wish
that he hadn't been shot and killed, right, or killed? And I
was seeing at it with the actual rhetoric from President Biden has been horrific in
this regard, and people have not paid enough attention to it. And I
realized that Donald Trump is like king among insulters, and it's really you know,
he loves to insult people, and he loves to come up with nicknames
and stuff. And yes, he has called Joe Biden sleepy, Joe Biden
worst president in the history of the country, right, that's very strong.
Red Joe Biden has said, for example, Donald Trump is a genuine threat
to this nation. He is a threat to our freedom. He's a threat
to our democracy. He's literally a threat to everything America stands for. Now
it's worse, he said. It is the biggest threat this country's democracy is
ever ever in its history phase whereas the slavery, Civil War, World or
two, et cetera, nine to eleven. He's also said Donald Trump is
the greatest threat to our democracy. He has said Trump poses many threats to
our country, the right to choose, civil rights, voting rights, and
America is standing in the world. But the greatest threat he poses is to
our democracy. If we lose that, we lose everything. And Donald Trump
and Republicans are a threat to the very soul of this country. He said
fewer than twenty four hours before an assassin tried to take out Trump, that
Americans want a president, not a dictator. I mean, this is yes,
sleepy Joe Biden, very mean. We shouldn't say that telling people that
Donald Trump and Republicans are about to install a dictatorship that will destroy America,
which is what Joe Biden and every single Democrat in the media have been saying
for about eight years. Like that's an almost no pushback from people. I've
heard no, really sane, sensible people on the left saying, I think
we shouldn't be talking this way. Can I say I am usually reluctant to
blame rhetoric for violence because it's often been used by the left to try to
chill speech, right, So I worry about that. So I did go
back this week and look at some of the things Donald Trump has said,
and he'll say like, he's the worst, Bind's the worst president ever,
Bind's going to destroy the economy. But I think that's Listen. He obviously
is not your typical politician, but they're and they're a hard thing. You
know. He's saying things that are very, very critical, but they're well,
they're within the bounds of usual political rhetoric in that way. I'm not
saying he's never said anything wrong in the past or never you know, about
violence, whatever. I don't want to get too deeply into that. But
it's not really the threat to democracy stuff that if that was all that Biden
said, it would be different. But that stuff is bolstered by Democrats on
TV, with millions of viewers and followers saying Trump is hitler, Trump's going
to put your kids in concentration, camps, or Trump's going to execute reporters,
or Trump is a clandestine asset for a foreign adversary taking over your democracy,
and added still by the Supreme Court is run by a bunch of billionaires
really and taking your right, you know, and on and on. It's
the whole. It's like the holistic paranoia. I guess I'd say that's going
on that is really dangerous. So it's not just like, oh, this
guy's a threat to democracy, because I think Joe Biden's a threat to democracy,
frankly, so I think I should be allowed to say that without having
to worry that some nut's going to shoot at him. But it's all that
stuff. I don't know if you agree with that. I share with you
concern about people blaming rhetoric alone for violent actions taken by people. And we
have had, unfortunately, myriad examples of this, where you know, there's
a paranoid, schizophrenic guy out of Arizona who shot up the Gabby Giffords rally
that she was hosting and murdered all these people and seriously injured her, and
The New York Times blamed Sarah Palin because Sarah Palin had put out a pack
target list of like where they were focusing their efforts, and that race was
one of the ones they were targeting. And they said because she used the
word target, that showed she wanted someone to kill the person. That's ridiculous
and absurd. And also you're allowed to say really strong things against your political
opponents. What I'm more concerned about is the dehumanization of Republicans for the last
eight years. It's not that there was strong rhetoric, it's like there was
only strong rhetoric. There was no understanding of the political concerns and values of
Republicans who elected Donald Trump, who came out with like eleven million more votes
to re elect him in twenty twenty, although that didn't work for them,
and no way of talking about their policy prescriptions, whether it's on the border,
foreign policy, crime, the economy, as anything other than authoritarian horror
show. That's what bothers me more. It's like deeper than just rhetoric.
It's about this inability to understand that there are different political positions and they should
be treated fairly. And in this regard, the media are the primary problem
here. They are the ones who decided in twenty sixteen after that infamous you
know, Jim Rutenberg front page story in the New York Times that in order
to preserve their political power, they had to treat Republicans like they were the
scum of the earth, horrible, not worth a fair treatment in any way,
shape or form. You saw that in the treatment by the White House
Press Court, which were just like constantly rabid packs of hyaenas versus the gentle
treatment that Joe Biden gets, even to the point of absurdity. You know,
they just had a press conference where they gently led Joe Biden through each
question and it took to the last or next to last question before anyone asked
about his mental acuity or like actual tests on his mental acuty. Nobody asked
about Hunter Biden being his top advisor. I mean, just this general climate
is in fact, deeply, deeply problematic for a functioning republic. Well again,
you know, this is what my book's about, and it starts the
first sentence in it is, you know something like democrats no longer debate,
They just accuse, They play the man. They look, they divine your
motivation, and they come up with this like paranoid view of the opposition.
You're not a traditional conservative who disagrees with them. You are a misogynist,
you're a transphobic, you're home of thought. You know, there's it's always
you know, I forgot which philosopher said it. But one of the hallmarks
of totalitarian politics is to constantly look at the motivations of other people rather than
debate what they're saying. And that's where we are right now. There is
no debate in this country anymore. It's we need to stop these fascists and
so on, which brings me to something I wrote, if you're ready to
go to talk about unity for a little bit. Yeah. So I am
not a fan of unity. And every few years I write a column.
Know, I went back to see I wrote one for the Denver Post when
Obama became president. I wrote one when I say Obama, yeah, and
Biden became president, I needed to write one today. Unity is a euphemism
for come over to our side and accept our cultural outlook on society. No
calls for unity ever, even now, when Joe Biden was calling for unity,
he did not stop talking the way he did. He did not ask
Democrats to change their rhetoric really in any way. Unless I missed it,
he basically sink conservatives needs to change the way they are And you wrote piece
on it, and I loved it because it was about this same issue.
We don't have to all agree, we don't have to be unified. We
do have to tolerate our neighbor having different views than we do. And that
is what has been destroyed in the last eight years, and really destroyed on
the left. I think the right still understands that you're going to I mean,
we have to understand. We live it every single day that you're going
to have people with different viewpoints and you have to tolerate it. But there
needs to be some kind of program to help the left retain or return to
that great American virtue of disagreeing with your neighbor in a civil fashion. You
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Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. They can't. They just can't
abide by the fact that someone in Oklahoma doesn't think that two men should be
married. They just can't. They can't live with themselves. They can't live
with the fact that someone in Colorado doesn't want to make a cake that they
ask him to make. They just can't. I think the core problem here
is, first of all, unity is for dictatorships, not for free nations.
I don't want to unify with socialists on anything. I don't really care.
In my private life, I unify with people. But this is about
political unity, and I think that's a it's a pseudo patriotic slogan that doesn't
really mean anything. But to get to the core of it, it's that
the unity, if any, comes from our belief in our protections and rights
in the Constitution, and the left no longer believes in due process or free
speech, or being able to defend yourself or you know, a bunch or
a bunch of other things, so with religious freedom right. So that's why
we can't be really unified in any way anymore. In that at least,
that's why I think things are falling apart to some extent. Now, Listen,
I disagree with Republicans all the time, but I think this is the
lefts the unity problem is a left wing driven problem. Right now? Does
that make sense? Yeah? It does. I think I'm more optimistic.
You just said you think this is why everything is falling apart. I would
just like to point out that our country has providentially been saved from an assassination
of the once and likely future President Donald Trump. The way in which that
crowd handled the situation, that President Trump handled that situation was remarkable. The
response from Americans across the entire country has been beautiful, outside of like MSNBC,
CNN washing basically every media out it seems that realizing that this hatred from
the left has, you know, it can even lead to something like this
requires good people to stand against It has been so unifying to people and almost
like we're seeing something we haven't seen in a long time. We've had a
very depressing almost like thirty years in America and it seems like maybe the country
is thinking about coming together to reassert founding principles, coming together to just save
the country from some of the insanity that has been foisted upon it by the
uniparty in recent decades. Like it feels like morning in America for the first
time in a long time. Yeah, not for me. I don't want
to be an e r. But I don't feel that at all. And
I'm not saying that in our regular lives we can't come together and that things
aren't okay. I think most Americans aren't hateful of their neighbors. I don't
think so, though when you look at polling, increasingly on the left,
they don't, you know, they're like, would you marry someone at the
other party? No, would you want to be neighbors? You know,
there's a lot of like I think that politics is trickling down, our political
hatre is trickling down into the real world. And part of America is I
get to live with people who I agree with Somewhere. I mean, I
don't, you know, we don't have to agree with each other. But
I don't think no, I don't. I think we're headed towards a place.
It's going to be far more statist and individual rights are in trouble in
the long term. Well, I think that's ridiculous. Let's move on to
the next topic so we can actually deal with what your real source of anger
and disappointment is. I'm not going to listen. I'm not going to be
come on here and just bash away at the vice presidential pick. Jd Vance.
Yes, you are, just get to it. I know, I
don't. I mean, I've done, I'm doing it all. I feel.
You know that meme where the guys where the John Snow takes his sword
out and like the whole army's coming out of That's how I feel like online.
I mean, listen, this is what Republicans want. Oh, David,
you are exactly with every single Republican establishment person in the country. I'll
tell you, the Republicans just wish the people. Donald Trump is the Republican
establishment. He is the president. Everyone falls in line. He was the
president. Everyone falls in line. There's not a single elected official right now
saying jd Vance was a bad pick. Maybe behind closed doors they said it,
but there's not one that's come out and said nah, that wasn't right.
As there. I mean he is the establishment. He is the establishment.
So I'm at the Republican National Convention right now, and it was kind
of hilarious. Did you say sorry? Yeah? I know. I actually
was like thinking, oh, this is going to if I just think this
is the last you mention I ever have to go to, I can get
through it. And then after the events on Saturday, I thought, you
know what, I am glad to be here, and I'm glad to be
here. But it's interesting because you have all of these old conservative organizations funded
by traditional business interests, let's say, and they are here and their number
one issue, you know, as eloquently stated by Mitchell McConnell, their number
one issue is Ukraine, you know. And then you have this really energized,
vibrant new right, the sort of Peter thiel Mark and Driss and Elon
Musk, David Sachs type world of that new business tech bro we cannot believe
how awful the Republican Party has been and we are hoping to make it better
kind of approach. And so the two sides have very different views. So
some places that I went yesterday after the JD Vance nomination was announced, I
mean, everyone like the normal people were all like, oh, this is
awesome, and then the normal silicon investor, Angel investment. No, no,
no, I'm saying, like the the delegates, the delegates, the
people who are just yeah, yeah, that kind of people. Then the
I also had some conversations with some of those older traditional Republicans supporting organizations,
and they were funereal. They were so sad, so so sad about you
know, the same people who actually were sad that JD. Vance won the
Republican nomination for Ohio Senate in twenty twenty two, really hoped that he wouldn't
have a future in the Republican Party. And so they're just realizing. I
think they're on this long continual realization that the Bush era Republican Party is dying
and being replaced with a new Republican party, no new ideas. But yeah,
I mean, I don't want I don't want to sound like that praising
myself. Let me ask you a question. Do you think that I oppose
the JD. Vance uh pick because I care about big business interest or anyone's
paying me to do it, or any of the stuff or even foreign policy.
No, I don't like him because his and I don't like, what
was it a question or was it just rhetorical like all my questions. Do
I think you are paid to oppose No, forget that part. Do you
think him because I think that you oppose him over foreign policy? No,
I don't think you're big on foreign policy, so I don't think that's it.
Do I think you oppose him because you genuinely dislike an economic policy like
the one here articulates? I do, And I know it's what you pose
because you've written about it for years, so I get it, you know.
Yeah, So what I'm saying is that it's unfair. And I see
this going on, and others have done it, like I mentioned names online
where they I feel like a lot of the populace pushback on stuff like this
reminds me of progressive stuff. It is also personalized in a way, like
I sa someone say, oh, a lot of writers you know are jealous
that jd Vance had a best seller and then you know, and stuff like
that. I do agree with Michael Brendan Doherty on that. I do not
think that applies to you, and I don't think it applies to everybody.
But jd Vance is a bit of a class trader. You know, he's
an incredibly smart person. He's a really good writer. He, in my
view, showed courage in rejecting the failed Republican Party of recent decades to embrace
the direction it's going. But a lot of people view him as a class
trader, and they are livid that he's been successful with it because they wish
that he would just be in their comfortable never Trump space. That is so
boring and so like it was boring six years ago. It's wait, he
keeps sayings, but really they reject Reaganism. They do. Note that's so
stupid. I literally can't go I can't go three tweets without someone calling me
a zombie Reagan talking about zombie Reaganism. I mean, they constantly do this,
So I don't even you know, like on your issues, you should
have probably you should. And I imagine you did also dislike Reagan and Bush's
economic policy, right, No, No, of course there's no one perfect.
I did not like Bush's economic policy. They're like Medicare party stuff is
okay. They're tariffs that they employed, those are okay. You just don't
like Jade Vance also with tariffs, because Bush put a steel taraff for two
months up and then took it down because it was a disaster. Trump wants
a ten percent tariff on all imports. I mean, he's never going to
do it, but that's what he wants. There's a big difference. And
by the way, Jade Vance is way to the left of Donald Trump on
economic issues. He's essentially there is no space between him and social socialist Democrats
right now. But he has said that he likes that he identifies with Bernie
stuff. I don't mind if people are fine with that, and they seemed
to be love unions, love price controls, you know, all this stuff.
But those are failed issues. And the idea that Trump is I think
Trump is a unique and amazing political talent, but the idea that Trump isn't
as successful is a complete fantasy. Twenty eighteen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty
two completely underperformed. People who cody Trump are not popular. What oh my
god, They've lost seats. They lost seats in twenty eighteen, they lost
seats in twenty twenty and the presidency, however it happened, and then twenty
twenty two, they immensely underperformed, and many of Trump's no I know,
I'm sorry that we can't have the electoral success of Amit Romney or a John
McCain. How about Reagan or Bush? They were pretty success that the Republican
Party was put in after eight Why is can I ask you, this is
an honest question. Why do I have to deal with this false choice where
I have to pick Romney or of JD. Vans. Is there no other
kind of person in the world. I mean, people always tell me that's
the choice. I don't think that's the choice. It's a good way for
all. Word that was much more inclusive, David. I was gonna say
that I got all these emails from people that were looking forward to us talking
about JD. Vance because apparently you and I tweeted around the same time about
it, and your tweet said this is the worst vice presidential pick in the
history of man. I said it was uninspired and terrible, oh gosh,
and mine was praise God. And so I am actually curious, who would
you have loved to see as the boss? I say one quick thing,
I am ready. People are like, are you okay? And all this
stuff. They say. I love our people, so I don't lose sleep
over it. But let me just tell you. A lifetime of political disappointment
has readied me for anything, and I don't get what I want, but
I you know, so I'm fine. Who would I have liked? I
guess if I had to pick the people that were available, I would have
picked young Kin. I mean, I just I think he's too normal and
too like esthetically no good. We have to be working you know, for
working classes, working class that and he doesn't look the part. But he's
actually successful governor. I mean he hasn't He doesn't have JD. Vance's experience,
who has now finished a third of his first term in the Senate and
never really you know, done anything else. I'm really emotionally involved here,
David. I do I do I think for Trump, if you're a Trumpet,
if you're like a fart, like if you're a left economic Republican,
which it seems many people are, this is a good pick for you because
he's kind of trying to solidify the future of his legacy on that sort of
issue. Right, So if you bring Younkin in, that doesn't happen.
I mean, I don't think J. D. Trump's ever going to J
D. Trump. I know he's going to be president, but unless something
got you know, happened to the president. But I do think for him
looking forward in that way, it's a good pick. I just don't think
it's a very inclusive pick. I think any anyone that was going to vote
for Trump already is going to vote from Jadvance is going to make and not
I think JD. Advance can make much of a difference. So You're ideal
pick would have been of the people spoken about, Oh well, malay should
be American citizens. You wanted the sort of Bush style Carlisle group governor of
virgin How much money does JD. Vans have? I love this working class
stuff, just because you grew up working class. I mean, he's also
why isn't young kin Or treated to his kids? What I want to tell
you, My husband and I always joke about how what a bad idea it
is to tell people to calm down. But I kind of want you to
calm down. You are so listened up here, and I want to I'll
tell you, I am so occutraated by the arguments for him. They make
no sense. I mean I literally hear like social conservatives who are religious people
believe you're spiraling. You're spiraling let's like spiral. This is why I became
a writer, so I could organize my thoughts more effectively. I'm really really
happy, truly surprised too by this pick. But I have some problems with
JD Vance's surprise. I am shocked, actually really though, who did you
think he was going to pick? So someone someone told Sean Davis that it
wasn't going to be JD Vance because we never get what we want, which
is like a common feeling. I used to I would talk to people constantly,
who do you think is the VP? Who do you think is the
VP? And all these like really interesting people who I respect on the on
the right, They're like, well, of course I wish it were JD.
But I think it's going to be Marco or I wish it were JD.
I think it's going to be Burgham. You know, they had their
their things nobody. This is a real move of strength for precisely the reason
you just you just pointed out, Donald Trump is showing that the Make America
Great Again movement is not just about him, that there will be a future
after Trump for this movement and for me personally, one of the things that
I'm most excited about and the reason why Permanent DC is sad is about the
foreign policy. And so I think you and I actually agree on the foreign
policy, probably with JD being good or no, maybe not. I don't
know how honestly much of an interventionist you are for democracy spreading, No,
I'm not for democracy spreading. But also I don't know what his views aren't
Israel, So honestly I don't understand his views. I always says he's pro
Israel and all that, but will he continue to fund Israel? I don't
know. No. I for being a realist, I always feel like I'm
more pro Israel than a lot of people who are in my space are.
But JD articulates my position very well, and he did it in under somewhat
hostile circumstances not too long ago, at a Quincy Institute speech where he made
the realist case for the US alliance with Israel. So you would like it,
and I think you'd like it because of who he was saying it to.
And by the way, yeah yeah, And by the way, there
are things I agree with him, and a lot of times the problems he
lays out, I agree with our problems. It's his solutions and prescriptions that
have a problem with Okay, yeah, I'm not spiraling, I'm letting you
speak. I was just trying to do that little thing on foreign policy to
make a segue to the economic policy. So the economic policy stuff I share,
and actually also administrative stuff policy I share concerns I worry. I like
this speech that vig Ramaswami gave at the National Conservative Conference where he kind of
was calling out I think JD and people like him who talk about co opting
the administrative state for conservative vents. And Vivig's position was it's irredeemable, it's
not salvageable. It just has to be dismantled. I agree with that.
I think the administrative state is unconstitutional and it needs to be destroyed, not
co opted for conservative ends. On the economic stuff, I actually think that
there are just these boring ways that people deliberately misunderstand some of what's going on
with trade and tariffs and stuff like them. I always think about how Trump
when he was up at a G seven or something in Canada, he challenged
everybody. They were very upset that he wanted to renegotiate trade agreements, and
they were saying he was anti free trade. He said, oh no,
I'm like totally free trade. If you want right now to agree to zero
percent tariffs, I'm in. And they were all like, no, no,
no, wait, we can't do that. So people frequently call things
free trade that are the furthest thing from free trade. They are nine hundred
page long agreements written over decades to deal with issues that were happening decades ago.
And then when you propose revision to those nine hundred page documents and agreements
with foreign countries, they say you're not free trade. Well neither are they.
There are things like you know, it's like they think that if you
call it free trade that it'll be free trade, and it's not. Everyone,
with a few exceptions of us on the more libertarian right, actually want
some type of trade agreement or trade paper or like you know, rules for
what can be done, and if you propose updating them in a way that
accomplishes different ends than the ends sought by the original people who were designing them,
then they call you anti free trade, and it's really annoying. So
I think there's criticism of protectionism, but also we just have to have a
much more open and honest conversation about whether the complicated rules governing our economy and
our trade with other nations, who they're benefiting. And I like how the
new Republican Party is thinking about the effect of these agreements on the middle class
and the industrial base and things that I care about for national security reasons and
for the health of the country. Listen, I don't want to get into
a giant argument about trade. We did that like a few years ago.
We could talk about that at another time. But it's not just trade.
I think JD. Evans is essentially a pre twenty fifteen Democrat, you know,
just his whole economic outlook for minimum you know, for price controls,
for minimum wage laws, for I don't even know, like if he's for
rent control. I'm not accusing him of that. I have to look into
it. But I think that we have now a lot of unwoke religious or
social conservative socialists in the Republican Party. A lot of class warriors who are
Democrats who don't like the woke stuff have become people that the like I saw,
for instance, people praising people right for the nation and places like that,
praising van people want to go after who think it's a great idea.
Big labor is a great idea, like we should be chasing that shrinking,
dying demographic. I mean, it is, And I pushed back just a
little bit on that very point. And by the way, I don't disagree
that some of the economic policies pushed by the new Right are extremely worries.
Okay. I do wish that people on the right would realize how the Republican
Party had failed to address the concerns of a lot of people through its open
borders, focus on corporation corporate health policy approach in recent decades. I worry,
in fact, that that approach has led people to reject everything that we
know about the brilliance of a market based system at helping the most people have
the most resources. I don't disagree. I just also don't want us to
make me pollyanna ish about what led to it. Sorry, but I just
wanted to quickly push back on the labor thing because I was interested in Sean
O'Brien's speech at the RNC, and I don't really agree with a lot that
he said, or a lot of what has happened through union stuff. You
always say, like, oh, it's only ten percent of the labor class
is in a union, right, Isn't that your thing in a private union?
My thing is that I don't even know what it's like a small I
don't know it's a small percentage, But I think if you're looking for a
way to explain, first of all, I just I don't think you have
to agree with everything that is said at a convention or by people in a
party like I just think that's weird that people demand purity from the stage.
But for too long people have not cared about the working class in America,
have let a lot of problems fester through an open border that doesn't just affect
labor markets, but also the spread of fentanyl, which has destroyed so many
families in our country. The economic situation does relate to ability to form and
keep families going, and so having a labor speaker does not bother me totally,
because I want the Republican Party in general to care much more about workers
and just what gets made in America. I know you don't. I know
you kind of like probably rolling your eyes at me right now at that.
But that's why I'm not as upset as you are about what Sean O'Brien said.
Even though I didn't really agree with much of what he said. I
think there's a big difference, for instance, between Reagan, who was a
faulty president. I don't worship Reagan like people claim or anything like that.
Is a person who took many, many years to change the minds of a
lot of people about the world. What jd Vance, who changed his mind
only recently about a bunch of stuff, has done, and people like that
do is just tell people what they want to hear all the time. I
don't think that's fair. I think that's one quick thing that you said that
I did roll my eyes at. Inside. I wouldn't do it. Is
this demand of purity. Of course, you aren't going to agree with everything
that a candidate said, but there are demands for purity. If Nicky Haley,
because of her foreign policy, was a VP, they would have been
a meltdown. The entire convention would have melted down. But yet it's okay,
so did the head of the Union. And what I'm saying my point,
that's my point. People speak, and it's I'm not going to like
everything they say. Go on now, I'm just saying that I think there
is a demand for purity. I think that a lot of people are going
to vote for Listen. I don't feel at home now anywhere. But the
thing is, I know that Donald Trump, for all the negatives I hope
he doesn't listen to jd Vance too much, is that by is Done is
far worse right. So I think that that's good for Trump. He'll probably
win. Maybe I don't know. I don't try not to make predictions,
but I do think at one point, maybe when he's present, there's going
to be a fight. I just don't know that as many people are populist
as you think, and I think ignoring the middle class, which is what
this party is doing now to chase the working class, I'm sorry. If
you're going to make things about class, people are going to see it that
way. I think most people view actually the primary group that is going to
the Republican Party or voting Republican is in fact the middle class. That's the
primary group that they have. So how can you say they're ignoring it.
Clearly the middle class is appreciative of this new Republican part I don't know why
you disagree. Where do you see that in the voting results? No?
Twenty eighteen A lot of suburbs were lost in twenty twenty two. A lot
of places that are suburban areas that should have been one or not one.
I don't know that that's right. I haven't taken a deep dive recently in
numbers. We can debate that another time. I just, you know,
I hate being such an e err about everything, but I just I want
to say that there are people like me out there. I see them out
there, I get emails and stuff. I'm saying it's a big group,
and the populists don't really debate that group. They're just like, you're old,
your ideas are old. I always laugh at these people who are mercantilists,
who are social conservatives make fun of old ideas, like, oh,
if something's old, it's garbage. I just want to say, I think
that debate will be had at some point. Yeah, I'm sorry, go
Who do you think has more political cachet, the populists or the libertarians.
I don't know why you call normal, every day, longstanding economic conservative principles
libertarian. That's something for a populist who on the left to do. I
am not talking about libertarian stuff. I'm talking about not wanting a minimum wage
laws because they destroy jobs. That's not a libertarian position. That's a tumus
soul. That's a position of of almost all economic economists only a few years
ago, right. I mean, I just don't like that framing. But
anyway, I know that I'm going to get dunked on. You're not people
love you. I have another question, though, and feel free to not
answer it if it's personal. I answer questions. Have you ever voted Republican?
It's a good question. I don't remember. Last time I think I
voted was two thousand. I'm not a vote I know so what I mean,
but my nob Okay, I guess here's what I mean. Visual if
people saw what you did and raising your hands and I will just say that
it's not I want to. I want to explain myself though. When I
was a real journalist, not an essays as I am now, I wouldn't
vote because I didn't you know, I just felt like reporters shouldn't vote and
journals shouldn't vote. And I just kept doing that. Wrote want call him
about it for The Federalist at one point, But go on, So do
you know Dan McLoughlin, I think you've worked with him. Yeah, okay,
I'm you former writer for The Federalist. He's written for us too.
I love him. He's a really great nice guy. Right. Uh.
He was melting down over the JD. Van's pick yesterday. No, I
think like he would say it, like, you are right, you're trying
not to be so mean. Sorry, I'm just saying. He was.
It's very emotional about it. And he had said something. I can't remember
what his tweet was, but it was like this conservatives or something, this
is like the final indignation. This is the worst pick in the history of
making whatever. But I was like, Dan, this will be your third
election that you haven't voted for Trump, right, like this, this reason
why you're not voting for him is because you think he's unfit for the presidency.
And he was like, right, that's absolutely right. And I think
it's fine that the conservative pundit class will never find a Republican worthy of voting
for, you know, or they will never support the Republican Party as it
has been, or they won't support the Republican Party as it has been for
a decade. Now, that's fine, It's truly fine. I just wonder
why we care so much what they think about the Republican Party when they don't
even vote Republican. But I have no problem with you not voting or not
voting Republican. I don't care. I'm not saying it that way. I'm
just more like, I think for a lot of Americans, we thought for
a long time that the people who were on TV or writing for National Review
or for we thought they were kind of like the people who were trying to
help the Republican Party or I don't know how to quite explain it, but
then you kind of realize at some point, like they're just not actually Republicans
and they don't vote Republican, and it's okay that they have their views,
it's just not necessarily great for the I don't know what I'm trying to say.
How many how many Republicans do you think would vote for Nikki Hale if
she was the can if she was the presidential candidate? You think it would
be far less than would vote for Trump? Or do you think would be
generally in the same vicinity of votes. I do think it would be far
less. I think it mean less, but I don't quite get rid.
My point is that, of course partisans always line up, Like I know,
people are like, oh, you surrender to Donald Trump or whatever.
You know, they say that the people have changed their minds about Trump.
No, that's what happens. Partisans get behind their candidate. That doesn't mean
that they're that they that they love all the things that that candidate's saying.
I just don't think it's some big miracle that people are lining behind up behind
Trump in the sense of, you know, policy. I don't think they're
as ideological as you say the pundit class, but I do think that that's
the pundit class does make argument, make arguments that filter down into the electorate
in a way. So I just wanted to you know, I just want
to say, like, just because I don't vote, I how can I
say this. I am not helpful for the I'm not here to help anyone
that's not you know what I'm saying. I don't never get that. I'm
not here to be a Republican. I think Republicans have been terrible for years,
just like all the populis. I know. I just think that the
sort of subtext is, Oh, if the Republican Party wants to succeed,
it would pick this person or that person, or it would nominate this person
or that person. But frequently those claims are coming from people who don't vote
Republican. Let me ask you this, then want to vote republic So people
are like, hey, we have union. You know, we're just opening
the party up to new people. But yet you wouldn't open the party up,
you know, like if the pick had been Youngkin or someone like that,
everyone, all you guys would be melting down because he not me personally,
but all right, others MBD would be melting down because you'd be reaching
out to a group of people that you hate, not you populists hate more
than they hate Democrats. Jade Vance likes Bernie Sanders better than he likes Mitt
Romney or whoever. In my opinion, well that makes him a normal PERSONA
Okay, I don't think so. I think specialists are terrible. Yeah,
so that's problematic for me. I was making a comment on Willard Mitt Romney
or whatever his name is. So I'm also not much of a Republican by
the way, so I'm not here to help the Republican Party or anything like
that. But I think for a lot of Americans, they look for political
parties they look, what they want their political party to do is to achieve
their goals. And sometimes I feel like the punnit classes alienated from what the
people want. And by the way, I'm in both parties on that,
and people want a Republican party that wins and one that serves the interests of
a large group of people, and they have been frustrated. Now, I'm
not saying there will be a guarantee of success this year, or that twenty
sixteen wasn't something of a fluke. You know that twenty twenty was a failure,
that twenty twelve, twenty two thousand eight. You know, there are
ups and downs here. But I do think that people can get a little
bit too impractical about what people are actually hoping for in elections. They want
relief from certain things, so they want improvements in certain areas. They want
a strong economy, and we should just be cognizant of that as we talk
about these issues, and that we should care more about whether the people who
are in power are responsive to the needs and concerns of the people who elected
them. That's a nice thing to say, but I disagree. I think
our job is to just I think our job is to speak the truth as
we see it. I'm happy to disagree with people. I try not to
throw at it around at hominems. I know this is naval gazing, but
I'm not, you know, I hate you know. This is what we
do. We're supposed to have these arguments. We're not part of a political
party. Like, if you don't like what the Mitch McConnell is doing,
you speak out. And if I don't like a Jada Advance is doing,
I speak out. And this isn't personal. I think I don't know jd
Vance personally. I'm sure he thinks he's doing what's best I guess for people,
but I think he's wrong. And yeah, I was actually thinking about
that. By the way, I'm glad you said that, because I think
it's an important thing. And this is also why you're such a valuable voice
because of the way you view these issues. I do know jd Vance,
and I was wondering how much of my support for him being the nominee is
rooted in kind of what I know about him personally, and how yeah,
and how weird that is, because sometimes it's easy. It is why you
should never make not know these people. Yeah, I was just thinking that
you can just be much more, you can just go based on what they
say in public. And very early on I became friends with like some local
politician, and then it was very difficult to write the columns I needed to
write, and them like I just won't be friends with them anymore, which
is so weird. Did you know life? That was in Bob Novak's book
Prince of Darkness. Really he said that early in his reporting career, he's
insane Lewis, and he said a bar, he has a great time with
this guy, and at the end of the night they exchange names and he
realizes the guy that he just had a great time drinking with was the person
he'd written quite critically of. And he said that the lesson he learned was
don't make friends. And the first time I read that, I was like,
that's horrible, And then I think I've told this story stupidly on this
before. But then I kind of realized not having my base of friends be
in you know, like cable TV, or in journalism or in politics has
been a godsend to me because my real friends don't care what I do.
They don't even know politics necessarily, you know, we just don't talk about
it that much. And if my friends were all people that worked in the
business that I did, it would be hard. So you said something about
JD not being a legitimate man of the people or working class, and he
did make a ton of money after Yale law school, right, I mean,
or so I understand, and he is a Yale educated attorney. I
mean, this is not what you'd think of as a down on the farm
kind of person, but I do think And did you read Hillbilly Elergy.
Yeah, okay, which, by the way, I loved Hillbilly Ellergy until
the part where he sells out and becomes the man. First half, I
was like, I love this dude, and then he became this like awful
ivy league person and I didn't like it from that. I love people who
climb the ladder of an American dream. But he really did have a childhood
that causes him to identify with the forgotten man, and that resonates with me
because the way I grew up, I had very well educated parents, but
we were not wealthy, and we were living in places where we had a
lot of interaction with people who weren't wealthy, and it is something that just
stays with me so much. I mean I think about it literally every time
I'm on television and people are annoying me with whatever they're saying, I'm always
thinking about those people I grew up with and what and what their concerns are.
So I like that about him, and I like that about anybody.
You don't have to be poor or have been raised poor to care about the
poor. But I do love when people care about these people, either personally
or politically or otherwise. And I just wish more Americans would. Yeah,
yeah, I mean, I'm not attacking. I'm sure he cares about the
poor, and the history is amazing and he served and all that, so
you know, he's an honorable man. I'm not saying I listed. Oh
one of my mildcare friends was saying he would be the first enlisted man in
the office of the Presidency. That's interesting, and you know, I don't
like, yeah, whatever I grew like. Here's my story, right,
My parents were immigrants. I was very young. They were poor, you
know what I mean, But then you know, they got to the middle
class and they worked their way up, and to me, I see that
trajectory. No one helped them other than on their own sweat and you know,
work and where ethic and all that. So this idea that government needs
to come help everyone bothers me. Have you read Shopcraft as White shop?
I tried. Did you like that book? Loved it? And I was
just thinking that you should read that and learn how to why why romanticizing?
All right? I feel like I feel like this podcast is going to get
me in a lot of trouble. That's what I like. Oh my gosh,
David. I was just like, I hope people understood that I was
joking about the calm down your inspiraling stuff. I'm sure people are going to
complain about that. That's all right. I'm so sorry. I don't I
don't mind. Like I was talking. One guy is like, I'm talking
about the working class whatever and showing a chart and he just puts a giant
picture of me up, handsome fella. He is like, but not a
person we would ever listen to about the working class. I'm like, you
don't even know any just because I'm a white dude, middle class, I
mean, a middle aged white dude. All right, you want to talk
do you want to talk about culture? Oh? Wait, we have one
other thing or no, we've got to go. This is the longest ever,
and I don't really have any I've been I'm slowing down even more on
my Bible reading because I'm so near the end. So that's what I've been
doing. I'm in third Peter, which is like one chapter long, and
there's just two more books after that. Yeah, I've just been busy,
all right. Yeah, the Issues et cetera conference was what I did culturally
this weekend. So good. I'll be very quick. Do you ever see
Absence of Malice? I feel like you may have spoken about it. Sally
Field's Paul Newman. Now, it's about a newspaper reporter. You should watch
this movie because it's incredibly anti journalist, Like this reporter uses something that's given
to them by the authorities to destroy someone's life, and they don't ask enough
questions about why they have this file and what it's about. And Paul Newman's
in it. I'm not going to tell you like my style. Yeah.
Second thing I saw was The Paper, which is a mediocre Ron Howard movie
about a New York newspaper made in the nineties with like Michael Keaton and Murissitome
love that movie. I know it's not great, but if you care,
you know, like newspapers. And then I watched Hotsucker Proxy again. I
haven't seen it in like twenty years. Cohen Brothers movie. Wouldn't say it's
one of their best, but it was fun. Have you ever seen it?
I have seen it. I love it, and I'm writing down these
other movies that we can make sure we watch it. And also I'd recommended
the Judge and a bunch of people emailed say that they watch it and loved
it, and so I'm glad that I did that right. I'm going to
go now and edit this podcast to sound less hysterical, but I will be
hysterical again next week, almost surely. And until then, everyone being lovers
of freedom and anxious