1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:49,679 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:54,640 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we are joined today by author John Glatt here 11 00:00:54,679 --> 00:00:58,960 to talk to us about his book The Doomsday Mother, Lori Vallo, Chad 12 00:00:59,039 --> 00:01:02,840 day Bell, and the of an American Family. John, thank you so 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,519 much for joining us today. My pleasure. Thanks for having me go ahead 14 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:11,719 and start by telling our listeners a little bit about your educational and professional background. 15 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:17,439 How did you get into writing true crime. My backgrounds in journalism Back 16 00:01:17,439 --> 00:01:19,640 in England, I dropped out. I was a dropout. I dropped out 17 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,040 of school and worked for a music publisher. You might be able to see 18 00:01:25,079 --> 00:01:29,560 this build. Oh interesting, that's my first job. I worked for a 19 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,480 music publisher. I did tea and coffee and runs the post office. And 20 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,519 I decided that I wanted to get into writing. So I managed to get 21 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:45,439 into a local newspaper in South London and went from there and then I used 22 00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:49,120 that as a stepping stone to come over to America in eighty two and been 23 00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:55,439 here ever since. Was the writing thing something that you were always interested in 24 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:57,760 as a young man, Oh? Yes, yeah, and I love writing 25 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,280 something I enjoyed doing. I liked I'm very curious. I liked asking a 26 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:07,879 lot of questions and finding things out, and journalistm to me, was the 27 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:13,360 perfect occupation. Absolutely it was. So what then attracted you to the field 28 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,000 of true crime, because it really does take a very special type of person 29 00:02:16,039 --> 00:02:20,960 to be able to deal with the depravity that comes with the true crime field. 30 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,560 What happened for you? Well, I actually starting My first book was 31 00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:28,879 on rock and Roll as an unauthorized biography of Bill Graham, in fact, 32 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:34,479 the Fillmore East and West and that whole concert promotion business. That was my 33 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,840 first book, and then I did a couple of other books. I did 34 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,800 one on River Phoenix, I did one on the Raw Family of Monaco. 35 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,879 And then I had a friend, a very good friend, who was writing 36 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,960 true crime books for Saint Martin's in New York, and he kind of husbaned 37 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,400 me into it and they gave me a try out. It's twenty five years 38 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:58,360 ago and my first book was an anthology of priests that killed. The second 39 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,319 book was an anthology of It's put Evil Twins, about cases of twins, 40 00:03:02,479 --> 00:03:08,039 either one killing the other or killing other people or whatever. And I went 41 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:13,319 from there really was, and after that I was I pretty well been doing 42 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:16,560 true crime since. But I have to stop you for a second, John, 43 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:21,240 that's quite a turn. In other words, I also worked in the 44 00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:25,520 music business for a number of years. But that's quite a turn from Bill 45 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:31,400 Graham to priests who killed. And I know I'm skipping a step or two 46 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,800 there. That's a pretty dark left turn. Don't you think some kind of 47 00:03:37,879 --> 00:03:40,280 segue, isn't it? Yeah, it isn't to say that Bill Graham couldn't 48 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,560 be evil, but he also did a lot of good things as well. 49 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,879 Yeah, for those obviously very different subjects, but both interest me. Really, 50 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,800 it's finding out the story. I love just finding out the real story, 51 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,639 and that's what rat me about it, especially about Bill Graham, because 52 00:03:59,719 --> 00:04:03,680 I interviewed a lot of people that knew him or rock bands from the times 53 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:08,360 and the sixties and whatever to get to know him, as try and get 54 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:12,439 him to know of this person, because unfortunately he died by the time I 55 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,240 started, and I'm just very curious and I wanted to explore more. And 56 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,079 it's the kind of same formula I use in true crime books. I try 57 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:24,600 to speak to as many people as possible and trying to get different views on 58 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,120 what happened, what the person was like, and put them all together. 59 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,720 And that actually does speak to my next question, which is, other than 60 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,680 telling the facts of the case and the story of the crime, what other 61 00:04:35,879 --> 00:04:40,800 goals do you have in mind when you set out to write a book about 62 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,680 a case. And it sounds like one of them is get to know who 63 00:04:44,759 --> 00:04:46,639 these people were, But do you have other goals that you set out to 64 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,519 do? Yeah, I obviously want to write an interesting book which will keep 65 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:57,000 the readers finishing towards the end that would be If I didn't do that, 66 00:04:57,079 --> 00:05:00,720 it wouldn't really work. But I just want to find out. I like 67 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:03,000 to find out what made people do it, and not as I can't. 68 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:08,720 I don't pretend to be, you know, to explain why people do what 69 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:13,560 they do. I just want to present as much facts as possible and let 70 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,040 the reader make up their own mind about what happened. And so then how 71 00:05:17,079 --> 00:05:21,480 do you pick the cases? There? These days, there's so much interest 72 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,839 in true crime, and you've had a great deal of success. How do 73 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,439 you choose the cases you choose to write about. I think they have to 74 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:33,879 interest me, and obviously they have to interest the publisher. If the publisher 75 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:38,240 don't think the book will do well, they're not going to hire me to 76 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,360 do it. I mean, that's a two prong sword day. But there's 77 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,000 a lot of things that really interest me. For instance, the doesday Mother. 78 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,399 I live up in the Catskills and I was at a local bart talking 79 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:53,959 to some friends. I never heard about this story, by the way, 80 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:57,680 and a friend of mine started telling me about it, and so all these 81 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,879 people they're just disappearing off the face of the earth. It's like very weird 82 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,279 Mormon based murder that seems to be going on. And I went straight home 83 00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:11,560 and started researching it. And this was right at the beginning. Basically, 84 00:06:11,639 --> 00:06:15,120 it's where are the children? And Laurie and Chad was still in Hawaii fending 85 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,800 off dateline reporters and the local east side of home. So I've been there 86 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,480 at the beginning and went from there and I published to light the idea and 87 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,319 told me to go ahead. I felt like the book came out. And 88 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:31,199 I think it's just because it's been on everybody's radar for so long, but 89 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,839 I felt like the book came out really quickly. I was like, Oh 90 00:06:33,879 --> 00:06:36,720 my gosh, how was there a book about this already? I'm so excited. 91 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,839 It was great. I was so psyched when I saw it. And 92 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,560 I know you're very much on top of the most recent cases. I'm in 93 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,839 the true crime section at Barnes and Noble all the time, and you can't 94 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,120 go into that section without seeing at least a couple of your books. So 95 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,720 I'm always excited every time I see anyone. No. I worked on this 96 00:06:55,759 --> 00:07:00,959 for about eighteen months actually, and obviously with the trial, New stuff coming 97 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,240 out every day. I'm riveted to listening to the audio because I couldn't afford 98 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,360 to go to the trial for two months, however long it's going to be. 99 00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:12,639 But there's a lot of new stuff coming out for the trial, which 100 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,279 I wish I could have added to them, and maybe I can do an 101 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,160 update to do that. I'd like to. But I got very lucky in 102 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:25,240 that I had Chad Dabell's preliminary hearing, So a lot of the testimony from 103 00:07:25,439 --> 00:07:30,680 the FBI and the detectives about when they found the children's bodies in Dave Bell's 104 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,920 garden came out at the preliminary hearing, and it started made a lot of 105 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,199 sense, and I can see there were things that I hypothesized when I was 106 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,959 writing that now with the trial, I can see that I was definitely on 107 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,959 the right line. Are there things now that are coming out, John that 108 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:53,800 you're shocked by? Because when I read summaries of what has transpired, and 109 00:07:53,839 --> 00:07:57,319 you're obviously a lot closer to the details than most people would be. But 110 00:07:57,759 --> 00:08:01,160 as more information comes out, I just find myself rocked back in my chair. 111 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:07,519 These people are sick, especially with Vlex Cox, Laura Laurie Vella's brother, 112 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,360 Yes, yesterday. I was just spent today listening to the cell phone. 113 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,319 They trapped his cell phone GPS wi Fi and they marked him on the 114 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:24,079 days that Tiley disappeared to his last known sighting and JJ and you can see 115 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:31,160 he's moving from his apartment next door to Laurie's in Rexburg, Igaho, and 116 00:08:31,199 --> 00:08:35,720 then to Chad to bury the body. And it all makes perfect sense now. 117 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,679 And it amazed me just how much they could find out about him. 118 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,360 And it's really been for me, having done the book, really riveting to 119 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,919 listen to this testimony. What would you say are some of the most surprising 120 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:52,960 things that you learned about Laurie and Chad and these sort of weird shared beliefs 121 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,759 that they had in common as you completed research for the book. What were 122 00:08:56,799 --> 00:09:01,759 some of the shockers? And amazed me how many people were under their spell. 123 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,120 Really they had a There were a lot of people that believe Chad Davel 124 00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:11,799 was a prophet and they followed everything he did. They read the books, 125 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:16,039 the podcasts and everything, and they really believed he was for real. And 126 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,080 the one hundred and forty four thousand that he told Laurie they were going to 127 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,440 lead see for the Second Coming. It just blew my mind that people really 128 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,720 believe this, and it's incredible this day and age that they didn't ask more 129 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,200 questions, but they went along with it, and it made like past lives, 130 00:09:33,279 --> 00:09:37,200 reincarnations and ever they believed in all that. But that to me was 131 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,919 a real shocker. I think, you know, it does sound like though, 132 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,480 in reading about the Mormon Church, that there is a history of people 133 00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:52,320 within the Mormon Church kind of self declaring as profits, in other words, 134 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,759 naming themselves as prophets. Yeah. I mean, there's been some pretty horrendous 135 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:01,960 murders I think involving the Mormon Church, and I think they're very embarrassed about 136 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:07,919 this because they've distanced themselves as much as possible from this case because it's very 137 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,279 bad publicity for them, I think. So there's that fascage of it, 138 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,399 the part that I'm always the whole thing. I'm fascinated by the whole thing. 139 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,039 So I guess I can't really say the part that I'm most fascinated with. 140 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,679 But I was so curious how Alex Cox ended up as involved as he 141 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,000 was in the case. Is it because he was so weirdly and maybe a 142 00:10:30,039 --> 00:10:33,559 little italy attached to his sister. Or was it a predilection for violence or 143 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,279 was it something else. What do you think caused him to get as involved 144 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,519 as he was. I think I don't know. If you heard the testimony 145 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:46,600 by Laura's younger sister, Summer Shiflet. She talks about I think Alex had 146 00:10:46,639 --> 00:10:50,960 some kind of accidents as a teenager and it did something to his brain. 147 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,720 And she said he never really grew up after that. He was just a 148 00:10:54,759 --> 00:11:00,840 teenager and when he became a man, he still processed thoughts like a teenager. 149 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,960 I think that had something to do with it. And I think one 150 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:07,480 of the interesting things in my book was I got although I couldn't name her, 151 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:16,639 Laurie's best friend at Eisenhower High School in California. She gave me an 152 00:11:16,639 --> 00:11:20,879 interview where you know, they they were inseparable, and she said in twelfth 153 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:24,799 grade, they were having a sleepover and Nauri became very emotional, flung her 154 00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:28,000 arms around her and said, Alex, who was like, I think four 155 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,559 or five years older at the time, Alex was trying to have sex with 156 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,080 her and she didn't know what to do, and her friend didn't know what 157 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:39,240 to do or what to tell her, So then it was never mentioned again. 158 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,399 But the friend told me, because her mother was a teacher, that 159 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,679 if she just wishes that she could have told the grown ups what was going 160 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:52,960 on, because maybe it may it might have changed everything. That's just hypothesis, 161 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,080 but that was my theory that they had a very close relationship. And 162 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:03,159 do you think that Alex became essentially a follower of Chad. We believed everything 163 00:12:03,519 --> 00:12:07,279 Chad told him. Chad and Laurie Melanie Gives says that in her testimony, 164 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,559 Alex believed everything he believed in past lives and Chadd had told him that he'd 165 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,919 been particularly selected for this life to be the protector of Lourie, that he 166 00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:22,279 had to protect her from evil, and that's what Alex thought. He was 167 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,720 a warrior in this way. I mean, look at Joe Ryan, the 168 00:12:26,799 --> 00:12:31,759 third husband Tyler is when he tasted him, basically Alex tasted him while Laurie 169 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:37,080 looked on with where they had a visitation. Alex was always getting He was 170 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,759 a violent person, I think too, so that part of the book was 171 00:12:41,799 --> 00:12:46,399 absolutely insane to me. I was sitting there shaking my head. Oh and 172 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,639 it came out that Lorrie and Tidy was sitting in a car watching it all 173 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:54,480 happen. Pretty scary, there really is. And I spoke to Joe Ryan's 174 00:12:54,679 --> 00:13:01,759 lawyer, very interesting, and he told me that it affected Joe and did 175 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:07,320 something to him. He has began he developed heart problems and everything, became 176 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,720 an alcoholic and died pretty pretty young. And the lawyer thought it was a 177 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,879 direct result of being tasered like that. Yeah, I was going to ask 178 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,960 your thoughts on that. Could we can't technically one hundred percent lay his death 179 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,600 at Chad in Laurie's hands, but it sounds like we can indirectly put it 180 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:30,159 there via Alex exactly. Yeah, the taser. But there's a lot There's 181 00:13:30,159 --> 00:13:33,960 been a lot of talk about whether Laurie could have been involved in his death, 182 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,799 which he definitely gave talks where she said that he was he was a 183 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:45,000 candidate to be murdered for what he'd done to the kids. And then at 184 00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:50,039 the same time, I'm very suspicious that Alex's death, which seems awfully convenient. 185 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:56,960 He's effectively acted as an enforcer or Laurie and has been directly involved in 186 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,399 the deaths of two of her husband, and then Alex conveniently dies. Yeah, 187 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:09,440 I'm very suspicious there. I wonder if it was suicide because he died. 188 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,039 I think after hearing that they were about to exume Tammy Dabell's body, 189 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:18,279 and I think two days before he driven all the way to Mexico to buy 190 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,320 some drugs and things. I'm not sure what pharmaceutic called drugs there were, 191 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:28,399 but he brought them back to Zulemma and he had the same kind of think 192 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,440 stuff coming out of his mouth Tammy did. In fact, they were talking 193 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,720 about that yesterday at the trial asphyxiation. But I don't know. I personally 194 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:41,919 wonder if Alex his heart gave way because he knew it was going it was 195 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,080 going to come down on him, and I think at that time he also 196 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,480 didn't know where Laurie was. Laurie and Chaddy just disappeared to Why without telling 197 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:54,440 anyone, and I think Zulema said that they were worried that they were the 198 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,200 fall guys and they were going to take the heat for what Chad and Laurie 199 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,799 had done. I think it was all coming back to Alex. But my 200 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,600 god, if he hadn't died, it would that would be really interesting. 201 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:11,799 How did Laurie and Chad's beliefs differ from those that are espoused by the Preparing 202 00:15:11,879 --> 00:15:16,200 of People and the LDS Church. If you had to categorize where they differed, 203 00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:20,399 what would you say is the biggest point of difference. I'm not a 204 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:22,879 Mormon. I don't really know the church. But when I'm talking to some 205 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,480 of people that followed Chad in the beginning and then got they separated because they 206 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,440 couldn't. But he was just out there and they didn't believe in the one 207 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:37,799 hundred and forty four thousand. The Church of the Firstborn was something that's against 208 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:41,399 the Mormon religion. And then he did things about how he and Laurie were 209 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,159 sealed in a Mormon is it a chapel or whatever. But that's what they 210 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,159 would never do is heresy. So I think that the Mormon Church, any 211 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:56,279 believers, didn't want anything to do with Chad and Laurie at that point. 212 00:15:56,759 --> 00:16:00,799 One of the things that we talked about on Mind over Murder recently is that 213 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,159 how strange I thought it was that they went off to Hawaii, as if 214 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,360 that was on the other side of the world. Now, I lived in 215 00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:10,480 Hawaii when I was a kid. My dad was a naval officer, and 216 00:16:10,519 --> 00:16:14,879 it was further away then than it is now, because when we were kids 217 00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:18,840 there were no satellites and Hawaii felt like a very isolated place. This is 218 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:23,480 back in the nineteen sixties. But I couldn't quite figure out if that was 219 00:16:23,559 --> 00:16:27,960 their version of running away. They didn't even leave the Fifty States. It 220 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,360 wasn't like they went somewhere where there was no opportunity to be forced to come 221 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:38,200 back to the US to face trial or whatever, someplace without extradition. But 222 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:44,120 they end up on a beach in Hawaii, months after the disappearance of her 223 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,759 children, weeks after the death of his wife. If I'm not mistaken, 224 00:16:48,919 --> 00:16:52,039 doesn't it seem incredibly naive that they thought that going to Hawaii would be enough 225 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:59,320 to move them off the radar in Idaho and Nevada. Naive definitely. My 226 00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:04,480 theory is Laurie's parents always went to Hawaii. They loved Kwai. Laurie spent 227 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:07,640 as a child, she was taken to Hawaii, she fell in love with 228 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:14,200 it, and obviously she moved to Hawaii with Charles Valo, DJ and Tylee 229 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,480 for I think fore or four years, So there was always something about Hawaii 230 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:21,880 that Laurie laughed, And I think it was part of her romantic dream with 231 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:26,160 Chad to get married on the beach in Hawaii. And I understand in fact, 232 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,519 I think she'd married Joe Ryan on a beach in Hawaii. That's when 233 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:33,880 I was his lawyer. In fact, so I think that there was naivety, 234 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,599 but that's where she felt that she needed to be with Chad. And 235 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,960 of course the wedding was exactly two weeks that, two weeks after Tammy died 236 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:49,599 November the fifth, twenty nineteen. I interviewed the I would say priest, 237 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:55,119 but the clergyman that married them, very interesting take on it, Yah, 238 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,759 And he couldn't believe it. He said, they couldn't wait usual league couples 239 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:03,839 are getting married. They want to take they want to get their full hours 240 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,319 worth of the marriage. He said, they couldn't wait to leave. They 241 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:12,640 were out of there about forty minutes later. Wow. He was quite pleased, 242 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:18,720 I think. And the photographer interview said they were very strange. Yeah, 243 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,960 my gosh, in what way were they strange from the like, From 244 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,240 the photographer's point of view, they were behaving like teenagers. And he's in 245 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:30,119 his early fifties. She's late forties then, I think, and they're all 246 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,200 over each other. And I know, if you've seen the pictures, he's 247 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:41,960 the not the guitar, but the Hawaiian instrument is the ukulele h. That 248 00:18:42,039 --> 00:18:48,880 was all faked obviously, and the champagne wasn't real champagne. When we were 249 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,440 preparing for today's interview, Kristen said something funny, which is they describe Laurie 250 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:56,640 as being very trap, you know, with the long blonde hair and so 251 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:03,359 on. Chad Daybill is at an average looking guy. He's not a movie 252 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,799 star, handsome or anything like that. Right. Is it the charisma that 253 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,599 puts him across and connects him with so many people? What do you think 254 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,240 it is? John? Yeah, I think he was charismatic. People told 255 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,400 me he was. He could give these talks with the visuals of North Korea 256 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,480 and nuclear forces Kim Jong un and talk about the end of the world, 257 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:30,079 and he had this kind of charisma. And I think for Laurie she had 258 00:19:30,279 --> 00:19:34,559 very low self esteem. I think it fed into telling her she was a 259 00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:37,759 goddess and he was going to say they were going to save the world together. 260 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,640 I think he knew how to feed into her ego in that way, 261 00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:48,279 and I think to Chad he was a womanizer. He'd be married to Tammy. 262 00:19:48,759 --> 00:19:52,839 I heard from their friends, in fact, that there was They didn't 263 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,319 really have much of a sex life. He was always complaining about it, 264 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,319 and he had a couple of relationships with the followers of his book by telephone, 265 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,200 these affairs by I think he saw Laurie falling over him, and it 266 00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:07,559 was this attractive blonde and just thought, this is who I want to be 267 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,079 with this. He just fell in love with the way she looked and what 268 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,839 was interesting with him. He was vastly overweight, very dumpy, double chim 269 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,680 but a few months of Laurie she gave him a total makeover. He must 270 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,200 have lost a lot of weight when you see the pictures later that I think 271 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,480 she gave him a makeover. But they were obviously an odd couple. But 272 00:20:29,559 --> 00:20:33,000 I think they fed into each other the sort of gasoline and oil they ignited 273 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:38,200 in this horrible, disgusting way. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 274 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:47,599 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover 275 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,440 Murder. You characterize him in the book as almost been like a cult leader. 276 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,279 Do you feel like that's the correct term for him? Yeah, definitely. 277 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,599 I spoke to a guy called Rick Ross who is a cult expert. 278 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,920 I've interviewed him for a few of my other books. He's very helpful, 279 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,440 and he talked about it as being a cult of too basically Chad and Laurie, 280 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,960 And he said, it's definitely a cult, you know, and is 281 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,880 that mentality? And there were more people obviously there was Melanie Gibb, Melanie 282 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:22,319 budrou Zulemma, Alex. There was a whole group around them, and more 283 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,160 names I heard during the trial which I've never heard of before, So it 284 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:30,960 was obviously bigger than just two. But it was definitely a cult that he 285 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:36,960 was leading. Are they delusional in that they think that beyond the cult leadership 286 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,279 and focus that seems to come mostly from Chad and his writings, did they 287 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,839 really think they were going to be able to leave a trail of dead bodies 288 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,039 everywhere they went and get away with it? I presume they did. They 289 00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:52,839 did. They got away with Charles Valo and Arizona. The police did investigate, 290 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,640 and they called it they thought it was a self defense, which was 291 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,960 ridiculous and that's one of the things we watched. The videos of them, 292 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:07,319 Alex, Laurie, and Tyley being interviewed by the police there. It's pretty 293 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,680 really interesting, especially Tiley. In fact, I don't know. I don't 294 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,440 think she bought what her mother was selling at all. She was very sassy 295 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,799 what everybody said. She would call her mother out a lot. But they 296 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,519 supported that Charles Vallo had come with a baseball bat and everything, and as 297 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:26,960 far as I see, Charles Vallo was a great husband. He couldn't believe 298 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:30,000 what Laurie had turned into, and there was going to be an intervention. 299 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,319 I think Charles Vallo and Laurie's brother Adam, they were going to do an 300 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:41,000 intervention with the parents, and that's when Laurie discovered what was happening with emails, 301 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,440 and Charles had even sent an email to Tammy talking about it, and 302 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,400 that's when he had to die. I think I think they obviously thought they 303 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,160 would get away with it, and they did for a while. I think 304 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,720 they would have gone away with it to a certain extent if Chad hadn't sent 305 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,920 that email to Tammy when they were obviously burying Tily and and he said there's 306 00:23:02,039 --> 00:23:07,000 raccoon. So I've been burning limbs of that email of the smoking talking about 307 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,039 it the trial yesterday, and that's what obviously said them. That's where they 308 00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:12,960 found the kids. Otherwise and I think they would have found them. Do 309 00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:18,519 you think that either of them would have resorted to this type of violence without 310 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:22,000 the other? Good question. I really don't know, I said at the 311 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:25,680 beginning, impossible to know. If they hadn't met each other, maybe they 312 00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:29,839 just he would have gone writing, carrying on writing his books and she would 313 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,039 have been just going through more husbands and a lot more people would be alive 314 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:37,279 today. So it's really hard to know. I think. Do you think 315 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,640 that darkest impulse to actually kill people that are standing in the way do you 316 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:47,000 think that comes more from Chad or from Lourie. I think Chad. I 317 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:51,400 mean they were in his way, didn't the kids there? He didn't want 318 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,559 them around. Laurie wanted Laurie to himself. They had to get away, 319 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,559 you had to. I think they had to kill their spouses for insurance. 320 00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:03,599 That's what they were looking at. A million dollars for Charles Valow and Laurie 321 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:08,880 didn't know that he'd actually changed the beneficiary to kay Woodcock his sister to aust 322 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,359 earlier until after they killed Charles, and then with Temmy. I was reading 323 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,759 today he got like about I think three hundred and eighty thousand dollars aout from 324 00:24:18,839 --> 00:24:22,160 insurance they paid him. This is what he was spending in Hawaii, So 325 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,839 I think that was a motivation to the money. I mean for the others, 326 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:32,000 I think Laurie and maybe Alex, it was like when they introduced the 327 00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:36,440 concept of zombies, and these people are turned it being inhabited by zombies, 328 00:24:36,839 --> 00:24:41,119 and the only way you could written was to kill the body and that would 329 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,119 free them spiritually, so you were doing the best thing you can for them, 330 00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:48,880 and I think that's probably what Alex believed. He probably believed that he 331 00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:53,039 was freeing JJ and Tyly by killing their bodies so their spirits could escape. 332 00:24:53,599 --> 00:25:00,799 It's bizarre to me. It really is horrific the Chad books. Does this 333 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,640 zombie thing show up in any of his earlier writing or was this a newer 334 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:10,119 creation that he came up with as an excuse to kill off all of these 335 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,440 people that were standing in their way. Let's be honest. I read one 336 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:18,079 of his books, and I don't read anymore he has done badly written. 337 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,240 Oh wowch I wouldn't recommend him as an author, but I understand the zombie 338 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:27,119 thing was quite late. He introduced that later on, and that was his 339 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,559 way. I think of getting rid of Tidy and JJ because they were in 340 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:34,480 his way. He didn't want them around. It's a flexible set of beliefs. 341 00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:40,160 What you're saying changes all the time. With him, I think I 342 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,279 just love the way that he had a definite date for the end of the 343 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:48,599 world. I think it was by the some twentieth was it twenty twenty or 344 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,359 he was sitting in jail when that happened and the world's at an end. 345 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,119 I just would have loved to have seen his face that day. There definitely 346 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,640 would have been something I would have wanted to be a fly on the wall 347 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,200 for it. Definitely. Okay. So, as an English teacher, I 348 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,799 am always interested in the writing process for any author that we interview. So 349 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,960 can you tell me a little bit about your process. I've been trying to 350 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,400 convince my students all year that they need to outline before they write a book. 351 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,559 So they're either going to prove me right or you're going to prove me 352 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,599 wrong, which is it going to be? I prove you. I've spent 353 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,279 two or three months doing a complete timeline of everything. I can run to 354 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,960 two or three hundred pages single space. I didn't get incredibly aim along this, 355 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,920 but the timeline is the way it works, and I can write through 356 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,400 that and you can see things that you wouldn't see ordinarily. The coincide. 357 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,599 My early books, I didn't really use a timeline except for maybe there was 358 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,359 some event that I really wanted to get into detail. But for the last 359 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,400 few years I do a complete timeline of everything, and it's really paid off, 360 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,240 I think because you can see things much more clearly because I had so 361 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,640 much research for this. I had this whole room was just full of files 362 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,119 and everything, and to have to remember where everything was without a timeline will 363 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,640 be impossible. I'm just going to say it really pays off for this book, 364 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,519 just in terms of very so much to this case that I remember when 365 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:14,880 we first started hearing about it, we were like, who died when and 366 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,960 where and under what circumstances. It was so helpful to get your book and 367 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,079 to finally see it laid out in order. I was like, oh, 368 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,400 that's the order. It happened, it very much helped. Yeah, it's 369 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,200 hard to get your mind around it. My new book, which is about 370 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,799 the Murdochs in South Carolina, is more complicated. I think really I have 371 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,559 probably had a lot more than I had on Lori Valo for that one research 372 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,920 it really was confusing. Timeline would be the only way you understand that. 373 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:48,720 And we do want to talk to you about that very much because we are 374 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:52,759 so interested in the Murdoch case. As you put together the timeline, and 375 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:56,200 I know you're very research driven, does it come to mind that there's even 376 00:27:56,279 --> 00:28:00,839 more research required? Do you see gaps in the people that you've talked to 377 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,319 and the people that you'd like to talk to? Absolutely, I see a 378 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,839 timeline. I'm going through it. I think I've got to find I've got 379 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:11,559 more questions I want to ask things. So our timeline is very good for 380 00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:14,680 that. And I try and get as many people as I can to talk 381 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,160 and that's very important. But the timeline is invaluable in getting seeing things from 382 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:25,799 different perspectives and getting the right questions. How many different levels of agreement will 383 00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:29,480 you have? You mentioned a moment ago that there was a friend of Lori's 384 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:36,319 that obviously you interviewed but didn't want to be cited by name. So how 385 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,720 do you? So you work that in but under the pseudonym, but you 386 00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:45,039 provide the information without clearly stating who it is. Yeah, I use a 387 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,200 pseudonym and then I put in parentheses not her real name. When you're reading 388 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,160 the book, you know that it's not. I don't like using a source, 389 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,440 said, I liked to real person, but she was obviously I connected 390 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,039 with a lot of people on social media and they they did not want their 391 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:04,119 names coming out as being close to them. So you have to go along 392 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:10,440 with that and understandable too. I think are you able to obscure enough detail 393 00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:14,319 though, so that we can't figure out who or why happened to be? 394 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,640 I think people in this school friend, I think her friends probably could work 395 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,559 it out actually, but for the reader probably less of a chance of figuring 396 00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:26,880 out, oh, that's actually who went to high school with Laurie. Unless 397 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:32,640 you had a class photograph or something. You went through everybody, but no, 398 00:29:32,759 --> 00:29:37,000 I expect their privacy. They talked to me on the understanding that I 399 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:40,799 wouldn't get their real names. How many people did you end up interviewing for 400 00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:44,240 this book do you think, Oh, God, probably fifty or sixty. 401 00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:48,680 Wow, I'd have to look through a lot. Yeah, we're so excited 402 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:52,799 about your upcoming book on the Rodoco murders because we have been covering it a 403 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:57,079 lot here on mind Over Murder. That too, is such a super complex 404 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,160 case, like you were saying a few minutes ago, tell us a little 405 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,039 bit about it. Go ahead and give us the elevator, pitch on it 406 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,920 and tell us when it's coming out. You give us all the details, 407 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,519 and we're so excited to hear about it. I'm not going to give you 408 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:12,960 too many of the details, of course, I want to say I've got 409 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,920 a lot of new stuff in there. There had a lot of good interviews, 410 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,160 and I don't want that to come out before the book comes out. 411 00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:23,079 Sure, of course, it was lucky because I finished the book and then 412 00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:29,519 the publisher left two I have two chapters at the end for the trial, 413 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,960 which I you know, so I covered the trial totally in that. So 414 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:37,440 that was a good ending. That was a very complicated book, and there's 415 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,240 so many different facets of it. And it's not just Alex Murdoch, it's 416 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:48,759 the whole history of the Murdoch family goad years in the fourteenth District in South 417 00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:52,920 Carolina, and they really ruled it, you know, like medieval kings in 418 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,079 a way, and they gore around themselves. And I spent three weeks down 419 00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:03,240 there last year again talking to people and everything and getting the real fuel of 420 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:07,799 it. And it's just very fascinating case, I think, totally different than 421 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:11,160 this one. In fact, they're both fascinating, but very different. It 422 00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:17,240 sounds like there's just so much to the murder case, and there are decades 423 00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:23,359 upon decades of corruption and political influence peddling, and it's unbelievable how much has 424 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,319 gone on with that family and that law firm. Yeah, there were a 425 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,960 law onto themselves and they got away with it for years. If it really 426 00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:36,880 hadn't been for Pool and that the boating accident dream was drunk, he crashed 427 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,200 the boat and killed Malory Beach, this never would have come out or anything. 428 00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:45,680 That was what really sparked everything, and they couldn't really hide it any 429 00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,079 longer. Had you submitted the manuscript for the book, by the time it 430 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,519 came out that Stephen Smith was being exhumed, how did you feel about that? 431 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,720 No, I think the book had gone suppressed by then, I didn't 432 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,519 meet Sandy his mud. I went to a benefit to raise money for the 433 00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:07,119 headstone in Columbia. That's when I first went in there. So I met 434 00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:09,480 his mother, Sandy, I met his sister, who's really sweet. And 435 00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:14,200 then it meant a lot to them to find out what really happened, because 436 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,200 they know that Stephen was murdered, and yet they couldn't get anybody to take 437 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,000 it seriously. It was all pushed under the carpet and hushed up. So 438 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:25,839 at long last there's a chance of finding out. You know what really happened. 439 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,759 Now. The Doomsday Mother, Your Lori Valo Chad Dabile book came out 440 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,559 on Saint Martin's Press. Is your next book, Tangled Vines coming out under 441 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,279 Saint Martin's as well? Yes, it is all my true crime books. 442 00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:44,720 I'm proud to say I've come under Sat Martin's Press. I've been with them 443 00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:47,559 for over twenty five years now, so I'm very proud of that. How 444 00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:52,880 does that happen? By the way, most authors we know move around, 445 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,440 Yet you've been with the same house for all of these years. Absolutely, 446 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,440 because they said I have very good relationship with my editor Charles Spicer and his 447 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,759 staff, and it works really well. I think I like working for them 448 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,200 and they seem to like me, so it's good. As I said, 449 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,920 I'm in the true crime section of Barnstoneable most every weekend, and your books 450 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,640 are never out of print, They're always there, so I'm always excited when 451 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,559 a new one comes out. And so when I was paging through and I 452 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:24,839 saw, oh, John Glat's got another new book coming out in August, 453 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:28,799 I was like, Okay, we absolutely have to see if we can get 454 00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:31,319 him to come on, and we do want to have you back when Tangled 455 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,880 Vine's releases. This has really being great talking to you. I do want 456 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,119 to ask one more thing with regard to the Murdoch case. Do you think 457 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,119 Gloria Sadderfield's case should be given another look? Absolutely? I just read Obviously 458 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:51,480 the murder case is now being resolved, but on a Sadderfield case, I 459 00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:55,920 just read this afternoon. I think he's through his lawyer, he's given a 460 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:02,400 reply to the Nausialus was the insurance company, and he's now admitting that the 461 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:07,720 dogs didn't push Glorious out of Field down the stairs, he made that up, 462 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,440 and that she was you can't remember if she wasn't if she was there 463 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,960 to work or not, which would invalid the whole insurance thing that just came 464 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,360 out. I just read that today. In fact, there's all these financial 465 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,000 cases. I think there's like a hundred different things against him there. There's 466 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,719 a lot more coming out, and the same judge, the same prosecutor, 467 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,480 and everything is going to be a lot to watch. Such an amazing case 468 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:38,239 and the level of corruption, it just goes deeper and deeper, and it's 469 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,079 quite amazing. Yeah, it's taking the whole of Hampton down anyway. I 470 00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:49,079 think the lawyers and the police are under investigation. It's just a very corrupt 471 00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:52,519 system that's been like that for so many years. It is nice to finally 472 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:59,559 see some of that dirt coming up finally say now that tangled vines is about 473 00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:01,360 to go to us, What are you working on now? Are you able 474 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,360 to share any of that? Are you going to keep it under wraps for 475 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,400 a little bit. I'm taking the summer off. I haven't ready non stop 476 00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:13,239 books for a while, so I think I need a few months off, 477 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,360 get a fresh air, and everything come up for are I picture a whiteboard 478 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:23,960 somewhere John where You've got all these ideas for your next book after the summer 479 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:30,159 and your well deserved time off. Right, it's right there. I'll let 480 00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:37,159 the record show that John is turning the camera and showing us his whiteboard appears 481 00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:44,079 to be more of a bulletin board with ideas pictures. I noticed you didn't 482 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:46,440 zoom in, though, so we couldn't tell quite what you were working on. 483 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,239 So what are you going to do this summer while you have the time 484 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:58,280 off? I don't know. Look for different ideas, and I'm doing something 485 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:04,000 for Grayton car who's the editor of Vanity Fair. His website air mail. 486 00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:07,480 They commissioned me. I've written a piece about a murder that happened in Swinging 487 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:13,039 London in nineteen sixty seven. That's coming out in a couple of weeks. 488 00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:16,719 I think that's something I've been working on when I'm looking around for other ideas. 489 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,599 It's a fun background, although once again you're working on a murder. 490 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:29,559 You said you're up in the Catskills. Whereabouts? Do you know? Woodstock 491 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:35,519 is thirty five miles west of Woodstock Bells Ski Center live in That nearest town 492 00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:38,559 is Margaretville. I don't know if you where are you based. I'm in 493 00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:45,280 Virginia and Bill is in Connecticut, right. Yeah. The book is The 494 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:51,039 Doomsday Mother Lori Vello, Chad Day Bell and the End of an American Family 495 00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:55,559 by John Blatt, currently out in stores, available on Amazon and wherever you 496 00:36:55,599 --> 00:37:00,039 get your books. And we're looking forward to having John back to talk to 497 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:05,079 us about Tangled Vines when that releases in August. That's gonna do it for 498 00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:08,320 this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 499 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:22,159 see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 500 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:29,079 Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our 501 00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:34,039 logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 502 00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:38,960 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow 503 00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:44,159 us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page 504 00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:47,519 on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill 505 00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:53,079 Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind 506 00:37:53,360 --> 00:38:07,159 Over Murder.