WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:10.320 Pudsonriverradio dot Com. This is Travis Walton and you are listening to UFO Headquarters, 2 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:23.039 beautiful Headquarters, and good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever 3 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:28.039 on the globe UAB. This is Michael Warden with Linda Zimmerman and I am 4 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:32.960 back, Linda. I am here. It is good to see you again. 5 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:37.079 You too, and we have a very exciting show. I've been looking 6 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:41.520 forward to this one now, but I know that you have a few things 7 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:44.719 you want to cover before we get to our guest. Yeah. I just 8 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:49.719 want to acknowledge I really appreciate when people get in touch with us and tell 9 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:56.320 us they actually enjoy listening to the show, which is nice. And we've 10 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:00.799 got a very nice message from I hope I get this somewhat right, Yoka 11 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:07.799 Risen of Finland. I hope I did not repay his kindness by horribly mutilating 12 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:12.000 his name. So I know you were happy to hear this, Mike, 13 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:19.480 because Finland is your happy place. It's my happy place. Yes, So 14 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:25.000 thank you so much. We really do appreciate that. And I got a 15 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:30.799 message from someone in aust from Andrew in Australia, a description of a recent 16 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:36.079 I believe it was a recent sighting, and he thought he was standing there 17 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.959 staring at Jupiter, just hanging in the sky, nice and bright, until 18 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:47.599 it started blinking and took off. And uh so it's it's good to see 19 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:53.200 things are still jumping around the world. So I think I think Project Blue 20 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.560 Book would call that swamp gas. Yes, Australian swamp gas. It's a 21 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:06.159 special swamp gas down under. Yes. So you know, you and I. 22 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:10.439 When we first started the show, we decided to kind of limit guests 23 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:15.240 because we were going to talk about cases mostly, so when we actually have 24 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:19.680 a guest back for the second time, it means we really like it. 25 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:28.479 So tonight we want to welcome back Charles Lear with his second book, let 26 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:34.199 Me get this name correct, Crashed Saucers and Malevolent Aliens. The emergence of 27 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:40.000 popular modern UFO mythos in the late twentieth century. Wow, Charles, welcome 28 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:44.840 back. Hello, good be back, Michael, good to be back. 29 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:53.919 So what prompted this book? Oh? What prompted this book? I had 30 00:02:53.000 --> 00:03:05.639 actually written two five part blogs, one about abductions and one about UFO cover 31 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.400 Up Live. What was behind it? It seemed to me that UFO cover 32 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:15.000 Up Live in particular seemed to be a showcase for all the really stupid things 33 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:22.879 that were going on in eufology in the nineteen eighties, and I thought I 34 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:29.280 could pretty easily expand the both of those into a book. It turned out 35 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:35.879 took a lot more research because I I didn't have enough time to go as 36 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:39.400 deeply as I wanted to. And I thought it was really necessary to go 37 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:51.960 very deeply into these because I was basically finding a lot of very revered people 38 00:03:52.080 --> 00:04:01.599 in eufology finding out that their their reputations got quite a bit tarnished throughout the 39 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:10.439 years, but it's not really very well known, so I covered it in 40 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:14.960 this book. My main purpose in the book, which I stayed in the 41 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:23.399 introduction, was to really see where the popular idea of gray aliens from Zata 42 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:30.240 reticuli coming here in nuts and bolts craft to abduct us, experiment with us, 43 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:35.800 combine our DNA, possibly with cattle, and create hybrids, and you 44 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:44.079 know do they started out as space brothers trying to help us come to grips 45 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:53.879 with our new recent discovery of how to split the atom and keep us from 46 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:58.759 blowing ourselves up, and then they ended up becoming these nasty little gray creatures. 47 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:06.240 So how did that happen? How you read the book? I know, 48 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:14.319 I know, yeah, but you definitely do expose the dirty underbelly of 49 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:19.360 uphology. In fact, enough dirty bellies to stretch from here to Zata Reticulie. 50 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:25.720 So it really is eye opening. To use one of Brian's favorite words, 51 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:32.079 the shenanigans that went on. It's it's stunning, and I think it's 52 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:38.480 something that needs to be told because so many people just believe everything. Yeah, 53 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:42.360 it's out there for anybody to find. And this was a journey for 54 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:49.000 me as I learned a lot just writing this, and that's pretty much as 55 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:53.360 I write. I don't come in as somebody who already knows this. I'm 56 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:57.000 an expert and now I'm going to pass on my wisdom to the reader. 57 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:00.680 It's a journey for me. And along the way, I cited all my 58 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:06.199 sources in the text because this is something that really requires the reader to remain 59 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:12.560 focused because it's a very convoluted story, a lot of twists and turns, 60 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:18.079 especially when we get into I mean, we were dealing with Richard Dody right 61 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:23.639 in the middle of all this, who was a self proclaimed CIA disinformation agent. 62 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:31.120 It turns out he was perhaps not quite as high up in the ranks 63 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:36.959 as he would like people to believe, and in any case, he threw 64 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:44.920 a lot of monkey wrenches into eufology. And it was also a period. 65 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:50.680 The first book I wrote was Flying Saucer Investigators, and that starts really in 66 00:06:50.720 --> 00:07:00.920 the nineteen fifties with the first private UFO investigation organizations. These people tended to 67 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:04.720 stay out of the way of the story, the early apro and NICAP and 68 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:14.399 they weren't the they weren't the big story. The investigators themselves, the cases 69 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:19.040 were the stories. And what happened in the eighties seems to be the investigators 70 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.920 went out and got the spotlight. And not only that, they started to 71 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:34.839 tell their readers and listeners when they lectured, you know, basically, trust 72 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:40.439 me, I've been doing this a long time and coming off as experts and 73 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:47.040 quite literally saying that. So a lot of ego got in the way and 74 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:53.600 a lot of really tall tales got told, and basically I was starting with 75 00:07:53.600 --> 00:08:01.759 the Roswell story. I grew you know, basically grew up with that eighties. 76 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.399 I was, yeah, I was in my early twenties in the eighties 77 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:11.959 and got all my information pretty much from documentaries. I never bothered to read 78 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:20.920 the Roswell book. I read the Roswell Book by Charles Berlitz and Bill Moore 79 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.879 in order to you know, really look at its start, and I was 80 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:35.440 shocked at out just juvenile the book really is. And Charles Burlitz too is 81 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:43.039 he's responsible for putting the Bermuda Triangle, the Philadelphia Experiment, and the Roswell 82 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:52.240 thing all into the American mythos, the Triple Crown of tuphology, and they're 83 00:08:52.320 --> 00:09:01.840 all ridiculous, I mean, the books themselves. He didn't. I was 84 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:07.759 so focused on more that I actually didn't take the time to research Charles Burlitz. 85 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:13.879 And I actually just recently did that. And it's an article in Skeptic 86 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:20.559 magazine. But basically the author of the article. Writer of the article points 87 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:26.360 out that Berlitz in the Bermuda Triangle would do things like if a plane was 88 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.480 on its way to Bermuda and crashed in Canada, it still counted its the 89 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:39.000 Bermuda Triangle. He said, the minority of his reports were actually in the 90 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:46.759 Bermuda Triangle. U and in the Philadelphia Experiment. Uh, there was actually 91 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:52.360 a fictional story with a character called doctor Reinhardt, who was supposed to be 92 00:09:52.440 --> 00:10:03.960 a scientist in seclusion because he knew too much about secret government of electromagnetic research 93 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:13.919 that could make boats disappear, for instance, and the Philadelphia experiment. In 94 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:20.559 chapter nine, More supposedly meets an actual doctor Reinhurt, and it's the same 95 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:26.519 guy from the fictional book. And it's the same scenario from the fictional book. 96 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:31.919 So that's the start. So you know, when people say Bill Moore's 97 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.559 deal with the devil was with Dodie, it really seems to have been with 98 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:41.759 Charles Burlitz. So when they got into he had a real story with the 99 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:46.799 Roswell story, it seemed when Stanton Freeman got ahold of Jesse Marcel and heard 100 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:56.960 the story from him, it's intriguing. The guy was there and he was 101 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:01.279 put together. He brought the story to Berlitz, and he and Friedman did 102 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:07.159 the research for litzt in most of the writing. But then you get into 103 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:13.159 the book and you know, More should have run if he wanted to be 104 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:20.240 considered a serious hephologist, or you know, if he had any he had 105 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:28.240 any integrity, I mean, he should have just gotten far away from that 106 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:31.480 book. As far as I'm concerned, I mean that they cited sources for 107 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:41.559 crash I think a saucery hidden away well, for the idea that there are 108 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:46.519 crashed saucers in the possession of the government. His sources, he cites Desmond 109 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:52.840 Leslie, who was a co author with Georgia Dansky of Flying Saucers Have Landed, 110 00:11:54.879 --> 00:12:00.679 George Hunt Williamson, who was a contactee who also called himself professor just 111 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:07.360 like Georgia Danski. And Gray Barker, who is a notorious prankster folklorist. 112 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.159 You know, I love Gray Barker, but he's not exactly what you would 113 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:16.960 call a credible source. So those are in the book. And then when 114 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:24.159 you go to the original reports, the original reports from Brasel interviewed very soon 115 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:33.000 after I think the July ninth Roswell Daily Record, Brasel is describing a bundle 116 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.960 of rubber I think three feet long, about seven inches thick, and a 117 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:48.039 bundle of sticks, paper, foil and tape that was about I think roughly 118 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:54.480 eighteen inches long and about seven eight inches thick. And you know, the 119 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:58.000 story is that the government got to him. But in any case, the 120 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.840 story is as in it it's really flimsy, and it's unbelievable to me that 121 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:11.960 it went on so long and got so convoluted and bodies were added in any 122 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.039 case this that that's the beginning of the craziness. And then what happened was 123 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:22.279 the Roswell story just sucked everybody's attention away from everything else. So while that 124 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.559 was going on, a lot of things were going, you know, falling 125 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:31.039 through the cracks anyway. I've gone, well, I have questions. I 126 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:37.000 think you made a really valid point, which I didn't quite look at it 127 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:41.639 this way. Before that, the whole field went from these you know, 128 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:48.840 apro nightcap investigating the cases to look at me. I'm the star of eufology. 129 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.120 And of course now we have which will remain nameless. You know, 130 00:13:54.240 --> 00:14:03.000 these traveling groups of eufologists who you know, they're the main attraction. And 131 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.480 it's a shame, and it was one of the reasons why I think Mike 132 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.639 and I decided to not have so many guests, because we just want to 133 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:18.120 focus on cases, because to me, that's where that's where the importance of 134 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:24.600 this field lies. With the data, with the with the personal accounts. 135 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.200 Like my my favorite cases are a witness and a reporter, a reporter who 136 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:33.720 is just straight up trying to get the story and that really has no background 137 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:39.440 in eupology. And right, actually, a really good case is you're familiar 138 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:48.960 with the Zamfreta case with the Italian uh is a concilia like an Italian police 139 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:56.399 guy, security guard. Right, Yeah, we did a we did an 140 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.879 episode on that. Yeah. Yeah, and you know that. What I 141 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:05.679 really love about that case is it was written, the book was written about 142 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:11.559 and investigated by a journalist with no back running euthology whatsoever. So he approached 143 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.600 it as a journalist. And right, and all the Italian police who were 144 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:22.480 were there, you know, witnessing the aftermath, and yeah, that that 145 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:28.720 is an excellent that is an excellent case. So again, that's what that's 146 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:33.440 what we try to do, is you know, here's what people saw, 147 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.840 here's what they said. You make up your own mind. But Mike, 148 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:43.080 did you have some what was your topic she wanted to bring up? Yeah 149 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.080 a lot. Let me let me pull up a c No, first of 150 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:50.240 all, I just want to compliment the research that went into it. I 151 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.639 mean, knowing how how much research, how much time it takes up an 152 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.480 almost twenty page bibliography. I mean I flipped to the back of the book 153 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:04.200 first. I'm like, yes, well researched because I appreciate that, because 154 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:10.080 you approached it very you know, from a scholarly point of view. You 155 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:15.879 weren't afraid to call out sort of the sacred cows, the elephants in the 156 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.159 room, so to speak. You know, you you call out some of 157 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:23.559 these well known ufologists who are making who've been on TV for for dozens of 158 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:30.080 years, maybe who have shady credentials if any you know, claim to have 159 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:37.440 degrees from various universities or maybe top secret super duper level clearances with no record 160 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.879 of employments, and and people eagerly seem to latch onto these without questioning. 161 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:47.720 Linda and I, without naming names, had our own encounter with one such 162 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:56.840 popular UFO entertainer who's over. I do won't say his name, but you 163 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:04.640 know over over expands upon his experience in life, and that doesn't help. 164 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.599 I mean, what's your take on all of that, and how do you 165 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:18.240 think it is in the field? Ah? Well, an interesting thing about 166 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:23.039 this this field is a common thing you find well, for instance, Richard 167 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:30.640 Doty Okay, there's a lot of role play in this field. And when 168 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:37.039 you get the intelligence community involved, it gets really blown out of proportion. 169 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.880 So a lot of these guys that were in the Aviary, for instance, 170 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:45.559 how put off John Alexander, and the Aviary, by the way, was 171 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:52.200 not a real organization. They were bird names given to Bill Moore's informants by 172 00:17:52.359 --> 00:18:00.079 Bill Moore so and Jamie Chanderray, which they say they state, so that 173 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:07.640 that's a whole nother mythos is that there's this group of intelligence community insiders who 174 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:12.920 are actually have this organized group called the Aviary, and that's not the case. 175 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.279 But in any case, the guys who are on this list are like 176 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:25.920 John Alexander, helped put off Kick Green, Jacques Valais in there, Bruce 177 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:30.839 mccabee. So these are all people that oh, if I can pause right 178 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.880 there, Bruce McCabe passed away yesterday, So I did want to mention that 179 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:41.680 quite a great loss. He really brought a lot of science to the study 180 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:47.440 of uphology. So sorry to interrupt, but just found out the news. 181 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:56.160 Yeah. Wow. So one one of the more loose cannons in this group 182 00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:07.200 was is Robert Collins, who was condor there in UFO cover Up Live. 183 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:14.079 They had two it was basically a lead up to two government insiders who were 184 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.480 going to tell the truth about the crash, saucers and the aliens that were 185 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:23.599 housed by the government. And it's almost certainly and they were in shadow with 186 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:30.359 their voices disguise, and it almost certainly was Richard Dody and Robert Collins. 187 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:41.240 Robert Collins was reportedly arrested inside the Manzeta weapons storage area in New Mexico, 188 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.480 saying he was there to meet the president. Uh So, that the role 189 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:59.799 playing among these guys, that there seems the idea that they felt they had 190 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.759 inside information on UFOs and that it was something real and that they were privy 191 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:18.079 to it, I'm sure helped puff their egos up a bit. And it's 192 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:27.319 the basic human needs are identity and recognition, and doing this kind of role 193 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:36.559 playing seems to feed those needs. So Richard Dody, for instance, pretty 194 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:38.559 much demons. If you look at his military records, this is a guy 195 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:41.799 who wanted to be more than he was. He was always taking he was 196 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:49.680 taking courses, he was ambitious, and he kept climbing the ranks. Well, 197 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:55.160 this is a common trait in the military. So you've got a lot 198 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:02.079 of military guys that will they've they've been in exemplary, they have an exemplary 199 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:04.839 military career, but then all of a sudden, you know they want to 200 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:11.000 be more than that and to become a military guy who knows about UFOs boom, 201 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:18.680 that makes you extra special. So that seems to be a common factor 202 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:23.119 in all this. But the weird thing that happened with to really get the 203 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:30.759 mythos going with the whole idea that we had aliens being held in underground bases 204 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:41.119 and recovered crash saucers. It seems to have been a big feedback loop between 205 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:52.519 the eufologists investigating this and the intelligence insiders who were giving them information and also 206 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:57.480 seeking information themselves. So they would tell the euthologists something, the eupologists would 207 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:02.000 tell them something, I heard something here, I've heard something from him, 208 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:06.599 and these rumors would start circulating. Now, one of the weirdest things is 209 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:11.680 that you had the remote viewing program going on at the time, Project Stargates, 210 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:19.640 for instance, in seventy nine. What mccaby wrote about in Hawktails, 211 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:26.920 which is a book he wrote about meetings with Ernie Keller Strauss. He doesn't 212 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:36.640 name him by name, but his aviary name was Hawk and maccaby talked about 213 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:45.559 remote viewers claiming to get in touch with the Saucer people and if this was 214 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:52.519 In order to verify that they were actually that this was actually something real, 215 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.920 they needed to know more about UFOs, so they reached out to the UFO 216 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.400 community to try and find out if UFOs are real in order to verify what 217 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:06.960 these remote viewers were seeing. So mcabee actually wrote there was like an unwanted 218 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.000 connection between remote viewing and eupology. So that's like, you know, one 219 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.799 of the whack air things that was happening. Also what was happening at the 220 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.960 time. That's just where all these wild, crazy stories came from and why 221 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:25.799 everything up so blown out of proportion. Another crazy thing that was happening in 222 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:33.599 the eighties was a whole First or Earth Battalion movement with Jim Channon. That's 223 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.920 where the men who Steric Goats came from. And that was a real thing. 224 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:47.000 They were trying to develop super secret psychic soldiers, and you know, 225 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:53.759 it was real a lot of New Age New Age influence in that whole. 226 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:57.559 See, it was seen that there were a lot of people in the army 227 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:06.200 who were let's just say, very open minded and the idea of spoon bending 228 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:12.119 parties, for instance, attended by military personnel was actually it's commonly talked about. 229 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:22.279 In fact, in James James Lakowski's book skin Walker at the Pentagon, 230 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:29.880 he actually talks about Loue Alzando talking about saving his troops using his remote viewing 231 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:37.759 capabilities. So you know, that's a lot of what I write about in 232 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:45.279 the book, with a lot more specific examples. I think I'm concerned about 233 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:49.519 the reader the listener, because if the listener doesn't know more that, I'm 234 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:55.559 sure the listener could be extremely lost. Right now, Well, we have 235 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:57.759 a lot of savvy listeners, and yes, we need, we need a 236 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:02.359 break right now. So why don't we take that and come right back? 237 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:12.920 Okay. Hudson River Radio dot com Hudson River Radio dot com subsidiary of Glacier 238 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:22.160 Entertainment ALC. Blasting the competition in New York's Hudson Valley. And when we're 239 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.640 back with our excellent guest Charles Lear, one of the few that's made a 240 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:33.160 second appearance on this show, if I can just ask another question really quick, 241 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.720 because you you write quite a bit about a case which I think for 242 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:44.319 many is a holy grail event, so to speak. And that's the Betty 243 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.000 and Barney hillcase. And like most people, you know, I've read the 244 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.680 original book, The Interrupted Journey, I've read Captured. We've had Kathleen Martin 245 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:59.480 on the on the program. What you really delve into the intricacies in a 246 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:07.359 way that I've never seen it explored before, very very succinctly to where's what's 247 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.000 your take on the on the Betty and Barney Hill in the role that it 248 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:18.279 has in upology. I think something definitely strange happened. What I really like 249 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:23.200 about the case is I went right to Walter Webb, who was the NYCAP 250 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:30.119 investigator and who looked at it and wrote a report. And that report's available 251 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:34.359 so you can see it. And what's wonderful about it is it's all conscious 252 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:42.480 recall in there's two reports. The first one is just pre hypnosis. They 253 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:48.319 didn't go. They did not submit to hypnosis until I think a couple of 254 00:26:48.359 --> 00:27:00.000 years afterwards. I think Barney's psychiatrist in particular, I recommended against it, 255 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:04.119 if I remember correctly, But in any case, it wasn't. It was 256 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:08.960 quite a while after the event that they actually underwent hypnosis. So most of 257 00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.680 the story is conscious recall, and you can find that in Waterweb's report, 258 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:19.680 which is wonderful. And then he does an update after the hypnosis and talks 259 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:26.640 about the hypnosis sessions. And what's interesting is Betty Hill wrote about her dreams. 260 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:33.559 She was having a series of dreams where she saw the men she called 261 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:38.599 the men and talks about them two in the front, two in the back, 262 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:41.480 around her, two in front of Barney, two and back of Barney, 263 00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:48.200 and then Barney being unconscious and being on the ship, and all the 264 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:56.079 stories of Betty's the whole thing with the needle into the to her navel for 265 00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:03.279 a pregnancy test which was amniocentesis, which was not at all common and most 266 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:11.079 people didn't know about it back then, and them tugging at some one of 267 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:17.599 the creatures coming in and tugging at Betty's teeth and wondering why they didn't come 268 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:19.680 out like Barney's did, and her explaining that she had false teeth, and 269 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:30.680 these are all dream recalls. And what's interesting is in the hypnosis session, 270 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:37.319 she does not describe the creatures at all. She just describes the events, 271 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:42.480 and whereas Barney does describe them, but they do not fit the gray description 272 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:51.240 of the Grays. Actually, I think no, Betty did describe them I 273 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:59.880 think in a well, yeah, Betty described them as Yeah, she described 274 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.680 as having Jimmy Durante style noses. Actually, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, 275 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:08.160 and that like really threw investigators off because there's so much one of them 276 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:14.799 to be Grays. And it's actually I think the Wikipedia entry says that that 277 00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.480 was the first mention of Grayce was the Benny and Barney Hill experience, and 278 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:23.359 that is not the case if you read the water webs report on it. 279 00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:32.000 Do you mean there's misinformation on Wikipedia? Stop the presses. Yes, it's 280 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.680 so. Yeah, Well, I'm sorry, go ahead, no, go 281 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.880 ahead. No, I was going to say when I when I very first 282 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:48.359 started writing, I found myself going to Wikipedia. That was my discipline, 283 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:53.440 was to go anywhere else. But actually, one good thing about Wikipedia is 284 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:59.119 you can find a good source information. If you go to their follow their 285 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:03.319 footnotes, you can, right sometimes you can you can zero in and find 286 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:07.200 the original source of the story. Right. Well. One of the stories 287 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:15.160 that I have liked for years is the nineteen seventy six Kentucky one with Smith, 288 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.519 Stafford and Thomas, The Three Ladies who. I believe they went out 289 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:23.160 for dinner and got a little more than they bargained for. Oh yeah, 290 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:30.759 I mean, if you want to go over that case quickly, Uh yeah, 291 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.839 let me look it up. So and at least have some guardrails here. 292 00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:48.680 But yeah, so, yes, this case was a report in the 293 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:56.319 nineteen seventy six APRO bulletin. It was also made the papers made the Kentucky 294 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:07.079 County Press. And this is another conscious recall case. And they saw UFO 295 00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:14.880 while driving and it seemed it came lit up the inside of the car. 296 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.599 It came in from behind, lit up the inside of the car. They 297 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.839 thought it was a police car, but then they realized it was the UFO 298 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:26.359 that they had seen before, and it had circled around behind them. That 299 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:32.799 seemed to be taking control of the car, and the car started pulling to 300 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:38.720 the left. Smith yelled to Stafford to help her control it. The women 301 00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:45.799 are Louise Smith, Mona Stafford, and the Lane Thomas. So the car 302 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:51.960 accelerated the eighty five miles per hour and Stafford and Thomas yelled at Smith to 303 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.519 slow down. Smith responded by holding up her foot to show them that it 304 00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:02.160 wasn't her doing the accelerating, staff grabbed the wheel tried to gain control, 305 00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:07.400 and they felt a burning sensation and a pain that seemed to come down from 306 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:12.240 the tops of their heads. It seemed as if the car was being pulled 307 00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:17.640 backward and they were going over some bumps. They saw a strange rode in 308 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:25.079 front of them. In any case, they it seemed they seemed like they 309 00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:32.400 were going at high speed all of a sudden that they found themselves coming into 310 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:37.279 Houstonville, eight miles away from where they'd encountered the object. So like bang, 311 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:45.400 all of a sudden, there's somewhere completely different. And they lost about 312 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:55.279 an hour and twenty five minutes, so they also But yeah, another weird 313 00:32:55.319 --> 00:33:00.759 moment is Smith took off her watch put it on a sake in the hands 314 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:05.319 were moving faster than normal, with the minute hand moving at the speed of 315 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:08.759 the second hand. And all three had marks like fresh burns in the backs 316 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:14.400 of their necks, and Stafford's was on the left, just behind her ear. 317 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:20.519 So yeah, that's an amazing case. Yeah, and conscious recall this 318 00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.480 is not from hypnosis, right, And I think there was some weight loss 319 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:30.000 in one of them, and anxiety. They had some PTSD there after the 320 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:39.200 yeah, they were in the actual serious physical distress. David Marler actually show 321 00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:46.119 sent me the file on these guys. Oh okay, and yeah they were 322 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:54.279 investigated by mouf On Nycap and no excuse me, Moufon QFOS. So I'm 323 00:33:54.279 --> 00:34:00.759 sure David sent me the QFOS file. He just recently acquired the APRO files 324 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:05.599 which have been missing forever right well in private hands. But in any case, 325 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:07.519 yeah, so he sent me the KUPHOS file. But yeah, QFOS 326 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:14.519 Center for UFO Studies, Jail and Heinez group, Uh, Moufon and April 327 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.679 all investigated this. But what happened is they all gotten with squabble. So 328 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:22.039 this is where the egos are starting to come up. They were all squabbling 329 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:28.719 and they really cocked up the case. They influenced the witnesses and the hypnotists. 330 00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:35.920 Later said that there was no way that he could determine whether how much 331 00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:40.519 the investigators had influenced what the women were. Ye know, what was coming 332 00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:45.599 out of the women in terms of the creatures, because they started the scenario 333 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.760 that came out during the hypnosis sessions was a whole being put on the table 334 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:54.239 and examined by creatures. They still weren't the graves though at this point even 335 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:02.840 but you know, that's so the cases in there moving, you know, 336 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.639 trying to get towards the grays where they just start coming out, and they 337 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:13.519 really just seemed to come out that they were locked into the mythos with Whitley 338 00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:21.559 Streeber's book Communion with the cover in particular. But you know, it's interesting. 339 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:27.519 I I was looking at a good Reads and I was shocked to see 340 00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:30.440 that the book was reviewed, because I hadn't been promoting it at all, 341 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:37.199 and I just checked out one three star review to make sure that it wasn't 342 00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:44.760 because of the quality of the book, And it was basically said that I 343 00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:49.599 didn't like the tone of the book because it made it seem as the general 344 00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:52.760 tone seemed to be as if there was nothing to this, and this case 345 00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:59.320 right there, it's like, well, did you read that case? Yeah, 346 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:02.280 I adore that case. I think it's amazing, and it really, 347 00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:08.880 you know, speaks to there being something to this and really, you know, 348 00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:17.559 the it's yeah, it's if the investigators would get out of the way 349 00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:23.800 exactly. Yeah, some of these cases, Mike, what other burning question 350 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:30.760 do you have? How is it that the Grays really sort of come out 351 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:36.039 on top as the pre eminent extraterrestrials that were visited by you know, you 352 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:40.440 hear people throw out the Nordics, the Reptilians, and who knows else, 353 00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:45.480 But it seems like everybody always goes back to the graves. How did they 354 00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:50.000 sort of climb that hierarchy and become king of the King of the Alien Hill 355 00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:53.480 here? Yeah, maybe it's because they look really good in gift shops. 356 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.679 I mean, uh yeah, because there are all kinds of critters, you 357 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:05.880 know that. I do a whole chapter devoted to the variety of creatures, 358 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.639 especially the seventies, which is the next book I'm going to write about older 359 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:15.639 you heard it here. First, what I really you know, because the 360 00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:23.119 idea was to follow up on Flying Saucer Investigators with a book called The UFO 361 00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:30.119 Investigators. But then I realized what a mess everything turned into in the eighties, 362 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:35.280 and the period I really want to write about is like just after Project 363 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:42.280 Blue Book and just before Roswell. So you know, Oh, another thing 364 00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:46.159 I wanted to point as I was writing the book, I realized, I 365 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:54.559 guess where it seems you followed? You really got crazy when what invention. 366 00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:04.239 What thing that everybody now takes for cell phone, the the old internet? 367 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:13.519 Oh oh yes, when was the UFO BBS paraanet Actually, Jim Spicer wanted 368 00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:21.079 to create a paranormal bulletin board service, which is how people used to communicate 369 00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:25.719 and post and you know, exchange news back in the ancient dinosaur days. 370 00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:37.719 And that's where Bill Cooper and John Lear just inserted themselves into the UFO community 371 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:45.480 with just absolute craziness that based on absolutely no research, that sounds like the 372 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:53.800 Internet exactly exactly we should. Yeah, you can finish your thought, but 373 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:58.400 then we'll take our next break. Yeah, I was just going to say, 374 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:07.079 it's it's a good example of how the Internet makes people crazy. Yeah, 375 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.039 it does. And with that, why don't we take our second break. 376 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:15.440 This is Hudson River Radio dot com, your local Rockland County station. 377 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:34.360 This is Hudson River Radio dot com and we are back with our awesome guest 378 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:36.960 here. And I just wanted to add a quick follow up on the Grays. 379 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:44.159 Whitley Strieber's book was my first introduction to to the Grays and really as 380 00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:45.159 a child that you know, growing up, I was always interested in you 381 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:49.159 fos, but it was really that book and that cover in particular. I 382 00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:52.199 think that really drew me in and and captivated me and still does. Every 383 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.840 time I see that book cover, it's sort of one of those events in 384 00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:59.599 life. It's like, wow, you know, you read his book and 385 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:06.440 that covers just ingrained mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, I'm not I'm not 386 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:14.800 saying that the Grays aren't like a thing, and there are people seem to 387 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:22.719 experience that consciously, you know, without encountered them, and can talk about 388 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:32.400 it through conscious recall. But you know, I'm just anyway, well, 389 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:37.480 if we can go back a little bit before the Grays, you you had 390 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:45.400 mentioned the tall Blondes, and I loved the term the Etherians, but it 391 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:51.159 was interesting because they were supposed to be early interdimensional beings, and now we 392 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:58.800 seem to be coming full circle back to interdimensional seems to be the current buzzword. 393 00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:00.679 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's come around. I mean, I 394 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:06.440 was a nuts and bolt sky back in the day, but you know, 395 00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:13.480 I was very much though a passive consumer, like you know, basically I 396 00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:20.880 watched UFO documentaries on VHS, and you know that's pretty much where I got 397 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:28.599 all my information, and I swallowed it all on I l n autopsy absolutely. 398 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:32.719 Yeah, look he peeled that thing right off his eye. That was 399 00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:37.760 a great effect. Yeah, but you know, I was a sucker. 400 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:43.519 What's interesting When I look at it, though, I was like, well, 401 00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:45.519 you know, did I really believe it or was it kind of a 402 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:50.880 suspension of belief? Because if I really believe that, that's pretty staggering to 403 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:57.440 say that something like that is actually real. Or did I just kind of 404 00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:05.360 take it as part entertainment And I'm still not too sure about that. But 405 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:12.400 yeah, I really did buy into eighties nuts and bolts uphology for quite some 406 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:19.079 time. And I actually remember reading Passport to Magonia, Jacques Valat's book, 407 00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:25.840 and it kind of twisted my brain a little bit that that's basically the whole 408 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:36.800 interdimensional theory kind of he ties it to fairy lore another mythost like that. 409 00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:46.320 But yeah, but in terms of you know, me believing nuts and bolts 410 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:53.440 or interdimensional I just have to say, you know what I somebody asked me, 411 00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:57.559 or UFO is real? I say, UFO reports are real. So 412 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.239 that's what I write about. Yeah, well it can be all of the 413 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:07.199 above. Yeah, I'm open to that. Yeah, I have no problem 414 00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:15.239 one one person who's irked me for decades. Uh, Heimi Massan comment, 415 00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:22.880 how is this guy still making money and sucking people in? I don't know, 416 00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:31.280 it's just you know, same reason ancient Aliens is so popular. You 417 00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:36.920 know, Oh, don't say anything bad about ancient Aliens. Half our audience 418 00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:44.559 they're going to they're pulling. But yeah, for those who don't know, 419 00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:53.880 himI Massan is the Mexican journalist and I use that term lately who just seems 420 00:43:53.920 --> 00:44:00.840 to perpetrate hoax after hoax and pull in some big names with him along the 421 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.639 way, and people love it. And he keeps going and going. Yeah, 422 00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:13.960 like the it's the Roswell slides thing with the god the mummy underglass and 423 00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:16.199 this is not a mummy. And he you know, he had a who 424 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:28.440 was with am Anthony Bergalia and Richard Dolan and he almost sucked in Kevin Randall 425 00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:35.320 who ran the other way fortunately. But yeah, he put on a big 426 00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:40.679 presentation down in Mexico and I think of Mexico City, I believe, and 427 00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:45.480 was charging up to two hundred bucks ahead for people to see the alien slides. 428 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:52.000 Uh. And then they were debunked and shown very clearly to be there's 429 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.000 a card right next to Yeah, all they had to do was read the 430 00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:59.840 little card if they sharpened it, and it was a mummy in a museum 431 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:04.400 with somebody's travel slots. Yeah, three year old boy and they made a 432 00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:09.320 fortune. It's yeah. I saw, I saw somebody did a list of 433 00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:19.159 just a string of ookum that Uhhimi missan left behind it. It's like a 434 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:22.840 long one. Yeah, well over twenty incidents. Yeah. I think the 435 00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:30.360 first time I saw him on television, somebody had taken a real flying saucer 436 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:37.599 photo and it took a photo analyst about three seconds to show the square cropping 437 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:42.679 of taking the saucerer and put in like, look, here's the pixels of 438 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:46.400 where he dropped it. Oh no, no, I'm like, okay, 439 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:51.920 I can never believe anything any word out of this man's mouth. And he 440 00:45:52.039 --> 00:46:00.719 has proven time and time again to uphold that low standard. But he obviously 441 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:07.159 made a career out of nonsense. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's unfortunately, 442 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:10.000 it seems to be the way of things, is it people? Is it 443 00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:15.760 people suspending? I mean, I know people want to believe in this topic, 444 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:22.159 they want to believe in UFOs, but do they permanently suspend their belief 445 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:27.360 because any other field, if your credibility is shot once, no one's ever 446 00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:30.119 going to take you seriously again. But how is it, it seems in 447 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:36.400 the paranormal field in general, but specifically with UFOs, you can be pointed 448 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:40.440 out, like in this case, outright faking things, but yet still remain 449 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:45.559 popular in the field, still drawing people in, still making money. And 450 00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:52.119 I don't I don't understand it. Yeah, I think it's it's because it's 451 00:46:54.719 --> 00:47:00.440 I guess I'll call us a hardcore. People are are really into this. 452 00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:06.199 We're kind of we're a minority. That's not a big group of people. 453 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:12.920 It's small enough that I can pretty much reach out to just about anybody and 454 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:19.119 get a response. You know, I've reached out the Berry Greenwood, who 455 00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:24.960 was you know, been in this field for years and highly respected, and 456 00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:32.159 he actually responds to me. And so it's a small community. The people 457 00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:44.119 who are consuming the who are enjoying the UFO hotels, the stories, are 458 00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:46.440 interested in the cases. The audience, I guess is the best way to 459 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:52.119 put it. The audience. You know, new people come into it all 460 00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:58.119 the time, so they're into the stories. And if you ask them who 461 00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:00.960 the people are telling the stories. Most of the time, they couldn't tell 462 00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:05.159 you the names. You know, this happens to me all the time with 463 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:07.840 my coworkers. They'll come up to me and say, hey, do you 464 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:09.960 hear about this UFO story? And I'll say, oh, you mean the 465 00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:15.559 one told by so and so, like you know, oh, like uh, 466 00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:21.840 I'm trying to just pull the name out of the air. But oh, 467 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.000 you mean the Stephen Grier documentary. Oh, who's he? You know, 468 00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:29.280 they don't know him, but they know the story he's telling. You 469 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.360 know, I asked us flat out, you know, oh, oh yeah, 470 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:38.199 somebody was telling me about something louell Asondo said at one point, and 471 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:42.559 I said, oh, you mean louel Azondo. Who's he? I literally 472 00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:45.679 did not know who Louis Asando was. And this is somebody who liked the 473 00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:50.360 UFO subject. So, you know, like I said, they they they 474 00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:53.960 hear the tales, but they don't really pay attention to so much to who's 475 00:48:53.960 --> 00:49:00.519 telling them until he's you know, somebody like Stanon Freeman, who was all 476 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.719 over the place. After a while, you get to know Stanon Freedman's name 477 00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:07.039 absolutely. And there are certain people, Yeah, they're going to know their 478 00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:09.679 names, but there are a lot of people anyway. That's my take on 479 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:16.880 it is that they're more interested in the UFOs than in the people. That 480 00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:22.679 makes sense. Yeah, well you mentioned David Marler, and for those who 481 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:30.239 don't know him, he has an incredible library and it's constantly growing. He's 482 00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:37.199 one of the good guys in eufology. He has an amazing I think he's 483 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:42.840 going to eventually, was it Arizona State or something. He's going to try 484 00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:47.039 to University of New Mexico. University of New Mexico. Okay, he's going 485 00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:52.639 to have it there. But right now he has a private building right on 486 00:49:52.719 --> 00:50:01.480 his own own property, funding it and just he's very helpful and he's he's 487 00:50:01.639 --> 00:50:08.440 just an amazing archivist, researcher and doing what everyone else should be doing, 488 00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:17.880 concentrating on the material, not you know, promoting himself in that sense like 489 00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:22.199 that. I really have to go back to that. That's just a great 490 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:27.239 point. When when did that, you know, when was that tipping point 491 00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:36.320 when the ufologist became more important than the UFO cases or seemingly so in a 492 00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:42.239 lot of people's eyes. But what what do you see as some of the 493 00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:46.920 shining points of ufology. In this book, the heroes, we have a 494 00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:52.599 lot of villains. Who would you see as the give me a hero from 495 00:50:52.639 --> 00:51:00.000 the book, anybody you know? I would say the community in general, 496 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:06.360 because in the midst of all this hocum there was a lot of peer review 497 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:12.599 and a lot of people were called out by fellow youthologists or you know, 498 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:27.800 the Lindon Napolitano case, for instance, was George Hanson and I think Richard 499 00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:32.559 Stefula, I forget the third person. But they really looked into the Linden 500 00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:37.079 Napolitano story, which was also known as the brooklyn Bridge abduction, which was 501 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:49.679 supposedly witnessed by two policemen and the Secretary General of the United Nations, and 502 00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:54.840 they looked into it, you know, and Bud Hopkins was investigating it and 503 00:51:54.920 --> 00:52:01.079 she was a subject of his, and they looked into it and found that 504 00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:12.880 he had only ever communicated with the witnesses who claimed to be policemen, and 505 00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:15.599 they only got in touch with him fourteen months after the incident, and only 506 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:22.639 communicated by letter and on tape. He also supposedly had a third witness that 507 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:27.719 was a fourth witness that was on the brooklyn Bridge claimed she saw it. 508 00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:34.320 He never looked into her background. But anyway, they wrote a very comprehensive 509 00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:39.079 paper which I referenced in the book, pointing out all the flaws in this 510 00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:46.039 investigation. So that's peer review right there. So I would say the heroes 511 00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:52.000 are you know, people in the UFO community not willing to turn a blind 512 00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:59.840 eye just because somebody is a revered figure in the community and you know it. 513 00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:06.079 You know, it was atle bit difficult for me actually to write about 514 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:10.119 it. You know, some of the write about some of these people and 515 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:20.239 find you know, the flaws in their work because they were genuinely revered for 516 00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:28.320 quite some time. And well, which doesn't mean you can discount all of 517 00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:32.760 their work, but clearly it brings a lot into question and you need to 518 00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:36.880 look with a more critical eye. Yeah, and a lot of cases they 519 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:40.079 were in genuine you know, they were in earnest and you know, you 520 00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:45.159 get to get into the human psychology, which is a big part of this, 521 00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:52.280 and you know just well, you know, wanting it to be true 522 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:55.400 or you know, really having a lot in vested in it. Not to 523 00:53:55.440 --> 00:54:00.119 mention a book you want to sell. It's easy to well, trying to 524 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:04.760 look the other way occasionally. Yeah, And a lot of these people, 525 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.320 you know, this was their own money and time going into the research, 526 00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:14.039 and uh, you know you can kind of see, hey, I can 527 00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:19.559 make money on a book and fund my fund my future research. But but 528 00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:24.840 if you devoted your whole life to one line of research or one case in 529 00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:29.599 the yeah, that's well, you know, it's hard to let that go. 530 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.239 Yeah, so you know I can definitely I can cut them some slack. 531 00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:37.519 You know, I have empathy for these people. I don't look at 532 00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:42.400 them as all these you know, these nasty villains of equality. They're they're 533 00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:46.480 human beings and flawed human beings, right right, All right, Mike, 534 00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:52.519 do you have any other questions or topics? I guess just more to your 535 00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:58.039 own personal opinion. You mentioned Jock Fla. I'm a big fan of John 536 00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:02.639 Keel in the theory of the ultra terrestrials. Where do you find your own 537 00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:07.559 personal Now? Are you the nuts and bolts? Are you leaning towards? 538 00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.639 Is there something more? Are you kind of is it a mixed bag? 539 00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:22.920 Well? I I definitely am more towards the ultraterrestrial idea that there's something interacting 540 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:31.159 with us, that it's maybe the same thing that or the gods of your 541 00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:45.239 you know, so I tend more towards that, And but I can't discount 542 00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:49.920 the nuts and bolts thing either, because you know, the Hudson Valley wave 543 00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:58.920 is just that's pretty mind blowing. There's still triangles being seen recently in Canada. 544 00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:02.440 And yeah, so you know, I all of the above, but 545 00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:12.360 I think very strongly there's there's something. Ah, there's something to the whole 546 00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:19.639 idea of a paranormal unifying, unifying theory of paranormality. I like that. 547 00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:24.760 And yes, I'm I'm a big fan of John Kiel too, but he's 548 00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:32.400 a tricky fellow too, and he one thing I noticed Keel did was he 549 00:56:34.039 --> 00:56:37.480 would, you know, show you how smart he is and and string along, 550 00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:45.239 you know, a lot of you know, a lot of scientific facts 551 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:49.159 and throw them at you and then say something and not back it up and 552 00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:52.440 kind of expect you to take what he just said on faith because of all 553 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:57.280 the science he just bamboozled you with. Uh. So, you know, 554 00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.960 he he did. He himself admitted that he he was more of a writer 555 00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:06.800 than anything else. But you know, he's definitely a deep thinker and an 556 00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:13.159 also in genuine earnest and really seem to have experienced things firsthand himself. So 557 00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:21.159 I am a big Keel fan. All right, Well, I have many 558 00:57:21.199 --> 00:57:24.679 other things, but I think we don't want to give your entire book away. 559 00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:29.599 Any anything else you want to say about the book that you think people 560 00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:34.599 should know, other than it's on Amazon and you should buy it. Well, 561 00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:43.199 hopefully it's entertaining. I definitely keep a sense of humor about the whole 562 00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:46.760 thing. Your great cover, by the way, I haven't seen it. 563 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:52.639 Who did the cover that? Miguel Romero was also known as red Pill Junkie. 564 00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:58.599 He was It's funny. I wanted to publish it through a company I 565 00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:04.599 knew he did covers for. That company turned the book down. But then 566 00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:08.239 I saw a Daily Grail, which he writes for. He posted that he 567 00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:14.679 was looking for work, and I contacted him and made arrangements to have him 568 00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:20.039 do the cover. And it felt really good, in these days of AI, 569 00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:27.519 to give a human being the job instead of AI. Made it amen 570 00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:30.400 to that you God a fabulous job with it. I'm so happy with it. 571 00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:37.800 So again the name is crashed saucers and Malevolent Aliens. The emergence of 572 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:44.880 the popular modern Ufo mythos in the late twentieth century. So other than Amazon, 573 00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:49.599 do you sell them directly? Oh, it's all Amazon. Okay. 574 00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:52.519 Do you plan on being at the Pine Bush event? Do you have a 575 00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:55.679 table there? I don't have a table there, but I think I will 576 00:58:55.719 --> 00:59:00.000 be visiting. Okay, would you be interested in possibly speaking at the museum? 577 00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:05.280 I think I can talk to Lance about that. That's something you would 578 00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:08.519 do, give a presentation? What during the Oh no, no, no, 579 00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:15.559 it's crazy day on a fair day. But some other time, not 580 00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:19.079 at this point now, Okay, I don't Trent, I ride a bike. 581 00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:23.079 Bikey that's a little far from where you are to mind Bush. Yeah, 582 00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:27.639 yeah, okay, so yeah, but thank you for the offer. 583 00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:35.159 Okay, Well, anything else, Mike bring us out? Well? Thank 584 00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:39.559 you Charles for being a wonderful guest again, and we look forward to having 585 00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:43.679 you on a third time when the next book comes out, and we could 586 00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:46.960 definitely talk to you for hours, I think on this topic. And we 587 00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:51.360 want to thank all of our listeners, whether you're new, you've been with 588 00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:54.039 us for the last six, seven or eight years. If you're new, 589 00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:59.920 you can binge listen to us on your favorite streaming platform. And your join. 590 01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:04.079 If you're in Finland, I might be there this summer if it all 591 01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:08.119 works out. So shoot me a shoot me a hello, and we will 592 01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:13.440 see you next time. Keep your eyes up out of the sky. Hudson 593 01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:16.280 River Radio dot com a favorite among shut ins and dogs.