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Hello, Welcome to this episode of
Superhero Ethics. Today we are talking about

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the last of US episodes one through
four with myself, Aaron McGowan, and

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Danielle of Written in the Star Wars. We're not gonna do episode by episode

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coverage, but every now and then
we're going to check it on the show

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which is raising so many great questions, doing so much, so many interesting

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things with a genre of post apocalyptic
and zombie TV, and just have some

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great discussions that it's raising it.
So I'm really excited for this episode.

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I'm gett into all that right after
this commercial break. We have no control

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over, but if it's for any
kind of flower based product, be careful.

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Welcome Backman is Matthew host And to
introduce my first guest, I can

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tell kind of a funny story because
Danielle Written in the Star Wars has been

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on the and Or podcast a bunch
of time times has talked to me about

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some other Star Wars stuff, and
then recently her Twitter and her TikTok the

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started to be a lot of references
to Tlou and Pedro Pascal and a video

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game, and I had no idea
what was going on because I live under

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a rock, And when I finally
figured out, I realized how excited she

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was about this show and that she'd
played the video game, and I knew

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that if I wanted to talk about
the show, I definitely needed to get

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her on. So one episode of
the show and immediately was like absolutely hooked.

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And so, having learned what is
necessary in order to survive the apocalypse

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from these wonderful characters, didn't yell. Let me start by asking you,

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if you have a crush on a
D and D player, what's the best

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thing you should do? Is this
a bad to ask them? What I

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was going to say, Is this
a bad time to say I don't play

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D and D? Oh? No, it doesn't matter because the answer is

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you ask them for a D eight. When the show went to bad puns,

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I was just like, I am
here for it. This makes me

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so happy. So Danielle, go
ahead and introduce yourself. Hi. I'm

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Danielle written in the Star Wars on
TikTok, Dannys three nine four on Twitter,

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and my pronouns are she, her, and I'm very excited to be

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here because I love the last of
us awesome. So in the Happy Accidents

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of scheduling myself, Dan Yelle,
and Aaron McGowan, who's been my regular

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co host. Earlier today, we
did an episode on the most recent episodes

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of The Bad Batch, and because
I had scheduled this double block of time

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with Danielle to do this and The
Last of Us, Aaron got the invitation

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for all of it and said,
oh, hey, wait, I'm really

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into the Last of Us too,
Can I join? Which I said,

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of course because I love their perspective
so much. So Aaron say, Hello,

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introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Aaron, Lady tonal creates on Instagram and

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TikTok, and my pronouns are she
her. The Last of Us kind of

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snuck up on me. I mean
like it didn't, but it did.

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So. I had seen the posters
and all the trailers with Petrofascale and Bella

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Ramsey, and when the first episode
came out, I was like, yeah,

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I'm not emotionally ready for this,
Like I don't know if I can

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do this. I recently did the
same thing with the New Avatar movie.

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I avoided it for so long because
of how deeply emotional movies make me and

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I get so emotionally involved with all
of this, so I was scared to

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even watch it. And then I
saw the invite and I texted Matthew,

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what does TLO you stand for?
And they were like, oh, the

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Last of Us, and I said, oh, I gotta watch it.

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So then I've been to the first
four episodes and I loved it. It's

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not as bad emotionally as I thought
it would be. And I didn't know

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much going in, but I knew
Danielle and I knew it was a game

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being turned into a show. I
had kind of a similar reaction to you,

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Aaron, and I didn't know much
about it. I knew post apocalyptic

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zombies, which always raises some interting
ethical questions. And the first two episodes

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were okay, here's some interesting stock
off. I like where the going Pedro

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Pascal is amazing. Bella Ramsey without
a British accent is breaking my brain,

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but is very good. And then
the third episode gave me probably in the

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top ten hours of queer media that
I've ever seen in my life, and

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we'll definitely talk about why that was
so important. And an episode four just

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hit me again and again and again, and so yeah, there was so

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much here to talk about and Delia. Let me just start with this is

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because, like I said, you
were you were going ham on this game

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and this movie on this TV show. I got there eventually, long before

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it came out. What was it
about the story of the game that so

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spoke to you? And how is
the show like why was it that you

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were so excited for this? And
how is the show reaching or not reaching

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that levels of excitement you had?
So I have to give a warning I

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might start crying. This story is
my favorite story perioded, not just video

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game, not just you know TV
show. Now it's my favorite story.

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And I started playing it in twenty
twenty so COVID, and it was just

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kind of a thing that was really
there for me at a really hard time,

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and I've just played straight through.
It became really really attached to Joel

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as a father figure. And I've
made jokes on social media about how I

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love Feather Pascal and I usually Thurst
over Feather Pascal characters, but Joel,

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no, like, that's that's my
father. And I think a part of

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that was I've talked a little bit
about this on social media. Part of

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that is that Joel is from Texas. He's a Southern man, and he

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actively cares about his queer daughter and
like and not just in like a pretended

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way kind of thing, which I
think a lot of people who maybe grew

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up in the South are used to, which is like, oh, we

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don't talk about it, it's not
there, you know, we can just

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you know, not talk about it
at all. And Joel's not that way,

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even though he may be a little
ignorant at times about like, you

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know, if in the games,
at least he's never hurtful, and he's

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always actively like supportive of Ellie,
not just in her queerness but in who

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she is as a person. And
I love my parents, but they Joel

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fills a gap, I guess that
for me, and I don't want it

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to seem like that's the only reason, even though I do think that's enough

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of a reason. But it's just
the story is so well told. It's

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such a good narrative, and it
stays that way consistently. And I won't

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give spoilers for part two, obviously
because neither of you know about that,

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But the narrative choices in part two
are some of the best and like most

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risky narrative choices I've ever seen a
story take and it pays off so well,

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and it just shows the real trust
in the material and a real trust

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in the story itself for the creators
to believe that they could do this and

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get away with it essentially and tell
a good story, and it does.

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And I just think that that kind
of creativity doesn't come around very often.

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And yeah, I am so happy
to see that the adaptation has followed in

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those footsteps, because we'll talk about
this more, I'm sure, but there

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have been changes to the story,
and that in itself is a risk,

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and I think that it wouldn't be
the last of us if they weren't taking

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risks in adaptation. So I'm very
pleased with where it's come so far.

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It's exceeded my expectations, truly,
and I'm so happy with that. I

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think I've been seeing that because we've
been doing a weird thing where my spouse

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had played through the whole game,
Mary I had not. We debated if

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we should play the game before watching
it or not, and instead decided to

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kind of like play a chapter or
two from the game and then watch the

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Because the TV show is pretty closely
mirroring the narrative of the story, the

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new Fire Emblem game is out now, which my partner I are both super

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obsessed with it, so I think
Last of Us Unfortunately game playing is going

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to fall off the tracks. But
part of that is and I'm curious for

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people who only watched the show,
how this was for you. I got

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to play the first chapter of the
game, or watch Mary play before I

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played it, before I saw it, and so for me to really connect

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with Joel's actual daughter character, and
I knew that this was very much a

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like father daughter's story, and so
I thought, this is going to be

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our main character going forward. And
then to have her be killed was such

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a gut punch to me in the
game, and it made me wonder.

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When I then watched the show,
I realized all the marketing has been about

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Bella Ramsey, who the girl his
biological daughter clearly isn't. And I'm curious,

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like if it had less of an
impact for those folks, because they

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were like, well, we know
this isn't Bella Ramsey or whatever. But

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I in a game, at least
to me that was like, oh,

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this is not your traditional game,
this is not to me. What it

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said was, yes, you're going
to have some fun shooting zombies, but

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mostly shooting zombies is just a wait
for us to tell you this incredible story.

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For me, I didn't see it
coming at all. Like that part

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slapped me in the face. I
had heard so much about the actress who

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played Sarah and how well she portrayed
the character, and I knew she wasn't

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the Bella Ramsey character, but I
thought, okay, cool, you know,

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she knows her stuff and she'd be
around for a bit. And then

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like twenty minutes later, I was
like, oh, they killed her off,

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Like I was not expecting that.
Yeah. I've been wondering that too,

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because I have seen some people who
played the game say that they wish

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that they hadn't so they could experience
the show fresh. And I can see

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the appeal to that, I really
can. But I think that I'm at

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the place where the game itself means
so much to me and nothing can take

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that away like that. The game
can mean a lot to me, and

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the show can mean just as much
to me, But the game means so

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much to me that I'm glad I
experienced it first, because I do feel

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like the show has made some better
narrative choices with specific storylines that I feel

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like if I watched the show first
and then played the game, I might

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be a little disappointed in some of
the choices, and I would hate for

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that to happen for me personally because
the game means so much. But yeah,

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I'm always interested to see what people
who haven't played the game, what

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their thoughts are about it. Yeah, and that's been for me. Like

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we're now, Like I said,
I want to keep playing it through,

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but I feel like the show is
just going into so much more depth in

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everything, from that initial conversation of
the two scientists where the interesting the whole

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idea of what fungus can do,
to the whole Bill and Frank thing being

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so much more drawn out, to
it's kind of fun watching it with my

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partner because she's able to go like, oh, the magazine conversation of the

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jeep that's word for word from the
game, or like, I've seen her

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play through the hotel, so I
can see that the sets are so painstakingly

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perfect. But then they're adding so
much more and in some ways I'm finding

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at least I'm curious how this is
for you. The game is so much

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more violent because it's more of the
playability, of course, but I find

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that cutting that way back means that
the few people you do wind up seeing

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get killed in the show, it
has so much more impact. Yeah,

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and I think it's like you said, it's like it's a necessity of gameplay

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that you have a lot more of, kind of like unquestioned violence. That's

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something that Part two plays with a
lot, the questionability of violence in gameplay

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and and so. But in Part
one it's just like, yeah, this

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is a zombie game. You gotta
shoot you know, you gotta shoot these

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zombies. You got to shoot these
people, not really thinking about it all

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that much and how it might affect
someone. But the show can't. You

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can't have that and have it be
meaningful, I guess because you don't have

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cut scenes, Like you don't have
a shootout and then a cut scene to

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a really emotional moment and then a
shootout again. It's all like one thread,

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and you have to incorporate the ethics
of ethics and the morality of killing

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someone in this post apocalyptic world into
that exact situation. And I think they've

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done that so well. Yeah,
I really see that. I think it

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especially came through an episode four where
can I remember? When playing through the

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game with Mary, one of the
first things I was struck by was that

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in the first couple of chapters,
you're killing a lot more humans than you

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are zombies. And it's interesting.
Yeah, it's a pretty common idea that

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post apocalyptic is doggie dog and roll
out against each other, and there was

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a little bit of that in the
show, but the fact that there was

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so little, I thought, we're
bouncing around it it here. Maybe it's

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a good way to get into this
part of it. Episode four, to

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me, is so good in so
many ways, the puns, the connection,

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but I felt like that was the
episode where we really had to wrestle

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with to survive in this world.
Most of us are not getting the Bill

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and Frank story. We're having to
kill other humans, and so for Bella

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to have her first kill in that
situation, or at least the first kill

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we saw, she says she's killed
others. How did that scene play out

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for you? Aaron? Especially curious
for you, like what was your take

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on watching that scene of them having
getting attacked by and killing other people?

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Yeah, I mean, like I
didn't see it coming, Like I could

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see it coming because obviously Joel just
talked about it in the post apocalyptic world

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and how everyone's out for each other. But as they were just driving through

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the city, and that's not what
I thought would happen at all. I

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thought they would just be last in
the city and then pop out on the

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wrong side of town and be further
away from Wyoming and then have to deal

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with that. And then when the
guy ran out and was like help me,

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help me, I was like,
oh, okay, run him over

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and turn around. And then there
was gunfire and I was like, oh,

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yeah, okay, this is an
assault, Like this is a planned

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assault. I liked that Joel actively
was saying to Ellie, like it's okay,

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we're safe. We're safe throughout the
journey, even though they're not.

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And he tells her, you know, they won't hit you. They won't

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hit you. Run to the hole, like hiding the wall, and don't

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come out until I say And then
he doesn't hear somebody ambush him, and

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she sees this happening, or hear's
it happening, and she has a gun

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and she knows she can go out
and save him, and she does.

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And I liked the moment when she
didn't kill him. But Joel is so

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protective of her that even when this
guy was screaming about killing them, he

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was just screaming about how they deserve
it. He takes the time to ask

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her to go behind the wall because
she's still kid. I mean, she's

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never seen an airplane. She didn't
know what a grassy hill looked like.

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Like a car just blew her mind. She's so naive while being so cynical

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and worldly. At the same time. She knows how bad the world is,

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and she knows that there's not much
hope, but she's still affected by

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Oh, they really killed a bunch
of innocent people, how they executed a

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baby. I'd like to continue to
see how these kind of things affect her

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and see how Joel tries to shelter
her from it. I'm curious to see

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where it goes. You know,
if he eventually starts to trust her,

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if he's going to include her,
you know, in their plans, start

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to trust and rely on her more, or even if he's just like doing

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everything that's possible to protect her and
goes in completely opposite direction. I'm just

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happy and interested to see where it's
going to go. Yeah, I think

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that well, I think the way
that Joel handles Ellie's like the way that

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she's been forced into this unfair world, Like he says an episode for it's

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not fair that someone your age has
to experience this. In the way that

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he does this in the show is
so much better than in the game.

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I find show Joel to be much
more open, and I think that that

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is very important. He's open to
a certain extent and then he closes off

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and game Joel is like that,
but it takes him a little while to

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get there, and I think that
it shows his reactions in these instances really

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show the benefit a kind of a
perspective. I say this a lot when

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I talk to the adaptations of material. Is that the Last of Us,

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part one, we have to remember, was made ten years ago. That's

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when it was released, so it
was likely the story was written, you

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know, at least like twelve years
before twelve years ago, and Neil Druckman

237
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was new to this, one of
the first things that he wrote, one

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of his first games, and he's
had twelve years to think about this,

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and I imagine that there are things
that he wish he had done differently in

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the game, or things that now
looking back at it as a father himself,

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is kind of like, I think
I want to change this up a

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little bit, And I think the
show has allowed him to do that in

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such a beautiful and natural way,
because adaptations aren't meant to be copies,

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and so it's expected that you're going
to change some stuff, and the fact

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that he's taking the time to change
Joel's responses to Ellie is really important because

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the father daughter relationship can be at
risk of being overdone in media. I

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think what's different is how that's portrayed. Is Joel just going to be this

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overprotective, gruff father figure or is
he going to be someone that Ellie can

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really open up too. And I
like that they've taken that and it's really

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seen in the scene where she doesn't
kill that man, but she shoots him

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and he's even if he hadn't died, he's paralyzed for life, like shot

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him in the spine. He can't
feel his legs And in a post apocalyptic

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world, what does that look like
for someone who just got shot that way?

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And Joel can see throughout the next
several minutes of their scene, can

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see that she's not handling this well, and instead of ignoring that and instead

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of just asking her once if she
wants to talk about it, and then

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letting her not talk about it,
he really pushes for it. And I

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loved that aspect of their relationship.
Yeah, it hits so hard and it's

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funny. After the third episode,
I was like, oh god, we

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got to talk to Danielle about it, and we had something she scheduled.

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I made a scheduled snaffoo. So
now it turns out we're we're talking now.

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And while we have so much to
say about the third episode, I

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think it does tie into this.
I am so glad we got to this

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point because I do think this was
the episode where there really was that breakthrough

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because between the two of them,
and I think, yeah, the way

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it was portrayed as First of all, knowing his history, I think he

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does have this very sort of like
Gruff. You know, it's every person

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for himself. You maybe make one
or two connections if you don't connect to

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other people, And so there's that
aspect. But also he had a daughter

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who died, like this is a
person who, of course the last thing

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he wants is to get connected to
this girl who may also die because I

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think I don't fault him for wanting
to have those emotional walls up and seeing

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the way they come down, and
that it is. It's after he sees

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that she has gone through the horrible
st you know. I think the fact

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that she's able to literally save his
life, which he has guilt about,

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but he sees she can handle herself
in this world and she gets this world

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for me. I think that's a
big part of what allows him to start

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to lower those walls, both because
he's like, you're already a little broken

279
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like me, and I want to
protect you, but also knowing you're a

280
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little bit broken already means a there's
a better chance you're gonna survive and so

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I can connect with you. But
also there's a better chance you can get

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me and I can get you.
Yeah. I think she became more real

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to him in that moment. Maybe
he was able to distance her a little

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bit more until that happened, and
then he realized, Okay, yeah,

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she is my partner in this Now
Tess isn't here, it's just me and

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00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:38.000
her. Well, let's talk about
the ethical conundrum that doesn't bark to hordly

287
00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:44.680
paraphrase Sherlock Holmes here because yeah,
he kills that. We shoot that person

288
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who immediately does this huge like you
know one eighty of he was trying to

289
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kill them before, and now I
was like, oh my god, I'm

290
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:52.680
so sorry. Please don't kill me, Please don't kill me. I'm so

291
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sorry. I'm so sorry. Which
it didn't feel insincere to me. It

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felt incredibly heartfelt. I was incredibly
moved by it. And it was you

293
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.440
know, we just had this conversation
around bad Batch where there's so many parallels

294
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too, you know, Omega and
Ellie, if nothing else, but also

295
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there we were talking about like how
you're part of a group, you're part

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of an army, you're part of
a gring, you'd do what they tell

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you. He's been trained all his
life that these are the people who's are

298
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threatening him, and so he has
to fight against them, and was see

299
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how deep that runs in the whole
community. But now that he's lost,

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he's so he's pleading for his life, he's begging for his mom and I

301
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was really struck by the fact,
but I didn't mind it. I liked

302
00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:41.440
it that she gets upset, you
know, she's upset and he Joel kills

303
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the guy so that she doesn't have
to, and they never mentioned that,

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and a part of was thinking,
is that going to be what she's upset

305
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about? That she thinks maybe we
didn't have to kill him. And I

306
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kind of really love that. Actually, that isn't ever questioned. That that's

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just accepted as this is horrible and
terrible, and in better circumstances, maybe

308
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.279
shouldn't have. And I think we
from a happily nonpost apocalyptic well by some

309
00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:11.559
definitions, but not as clearly apocalyptic
situation, Like it's easy for me to

310
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morally sit back and say, no, of course you should say that guy's

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life. You should get him to
his mom, you should do what you

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can. But I totally understand why
they both felt like that was a necessary

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thing in that world. And I
kind of love that the show doesn't question

314
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that. The question thing is about
her having to kill him to begin with,

315
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but the fact that they let this
guy die while I screaming they kill

316
00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:36.400
him while I screaming for his mom, that's not really an issue. Yeah,

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I mean, I kind of well
to me to disagree in a friendly

318
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way. It didn't play as sincere
right away, like, of course a

319
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dying man is going to say anything
for you to not kill him. I

320
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.960
was sitting there, like, does
he even have a mom or Is he

321
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just trying to pull sympathy from Joel? Is he trying to pull sympathy from

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Ellie? Like there's no way you
can trust this guy. He's telling him,

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He's telling I'll go back and tell
everyone you're okay. Even if he

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goes and tells them you're okay,
which he probably won't, his people are

325
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probably just going to kill you anyway. I think the both of those are

326
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:18.319
really interesting perspectives. And I think
that what I think of most with this

327
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:23.720
scene with Joel killing this man is
that we don't see him do it and

328
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:30.759
it's done and over with very quickly, and that is such a big difference

329
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from the last time we saw him
kill someone, which was in episode one,

330
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and he beats to a pulp the
Venia officer because he's thinking of Sarah

331
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and how he couldn't protect Sarah.
And I think there are two side,

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Like there's one side to Joel that
I think that the series will probably continue

333
00:23:55.880 --> 00:24:02.880
to explore, and that's his his
need for not his need, but he

334
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:07.640
does have a vengeful side he does
have this anger that can come out and

335
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:15.400
can do horrible things, horrible unnecessary
things, and that's shown with the FEDRA

336
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.519
officer because he didn't really need to
kill him that way. I'm pretty sure

337
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.400
the guy was already dead when he
was still beating up on him. But

338
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.880
the difference between those deaths I think
is very important because we do see him

339
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:27.559
do this, and we do see
that anger in him, and we continue

340
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:33.279
to go back to the hand the
knuckles that are still injured from that whole

341
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:38.720
fiasco, and then this death that
we see now, which we don't actually

342
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:47.240
see him do and he doesn't string
it out. So yeah, I agree

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00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.720
that he has this really angry and
vengeful side, and I think that's very

344
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.880
powerful. That this was not a
random FEDRA agent. This is the guy

345
00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.400
that he would small a pills for. This is the guy who would tell

346
00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:03.119
him when and one not to be
on the street, like kind of your

347
00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:07.720
buddy. But the moment it parallels
the situation with Sarah. He just Joe

348
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:14.160
flips. And it's interesting because I
hadn't really put this together, but there

349
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:17.799
is a way in which this situation
also mirrored that in that you know,

350
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.559
Joel fights against the two people who
he knows, and he takes them down,

351
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:23.799
but he, as he says,
he doesn't hear this third guy.

352
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And it's because of his failure in
that that this guy almost kills him,

353
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.200
which forces Ellie to have to come
out and shoot him. And so there

354
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:38.720
is a parallel there of again,
he has made a mistake, and like,

355
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:42.480
I don't think anyone except maybe there's
the most super spy superspy person could

356
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.079
have not done what he did there. It's a very hard situation, but

357
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:51.519
still in his mind he's screwed up, and the girl he's taking care of

358
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:53.880
was harmed because of it, And
so that makes I think even more powerful

359
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.799
that he's able to not make this
a you know, I'm going to take

360
00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:00.359
out all my emotions on this.
It's just a okay, I'm just gonna

361
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.759
make this queen clean quick. This
guy's not gonna suffer anymore. He's gonna

362
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.519
get killed. Alie's not gonna have
to deal with suffering anymore and just move

363
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:14.519
on and he apologizes to her.
That was a huge thing for me.

364
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:22.039
We so rarely see parental figures in
real life and in media apologize to children

365
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.440
when children deserve to be apologized to
children are humans too, and if you

366
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:32.240
do something that you shouldn't have that
resulted in harm to them in some way

367
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:37.519
emotional, physical, whatever, you
should apologize. And we get that so

368
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.880
rarely, like I said, and
so to see Joel actually apologize, which

369
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.960
doesn't happen in the game was huge
for me. Like I start, I

370
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:48.160
was crying. I didn't even realize
it. I was like, Oh,

371
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:49.880
that's so nice to apologize, and
I'm like, oh, there's tears streaming

372
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:55.440
down my face. But I really
liked that addition. No, as someone

373
00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:57.079
who's been working with a therapist for
ten years to figure out some way to

374
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:03.400
get my father to say the words
I'm sorry, it's not just emotional nasochism

375
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.480
with these shows. It's therapy for
us. My currency needs to pay my

376
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:14.920
HBO Max bill, and I want
to use this too. We're gonna got

377
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.559
to jump around a little bit here. But I think that there's so much

378
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:21.440
of the about all these episodes to
talk about. But I think one to

379
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:25.440
me, episode four does not pay
off anywhere near as well if it's not

380
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.599
set up by episode three. And
so I think this is kind of a

381
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:32.359
good good time to talk about episode
three and I have so much to say

382
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.079
about it, especially how it pays
off to hear. But let me just

383
00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:38.559
start with you all, and starting
Danielle with you as someone who had played

384
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:45.200
out the Bill and Frank storyline,
in which case it as someone who had

385
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.720
played out Bill and Frank's story in
the game where he's referred to as a

386
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.720
partner, and like it could be
a queer partner, it could be a

387
00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:56.440
business partner. It's a very negative
story of a relationship that's gone sour.

388
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.279
How did this strike you? Seeing
this very big deviation from the story and

389
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:08.319
an episode that has if you want
to talk about a thing that people would

390
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:14.039
call a filler episode, though clearly
it's not at least not well or it's

391
00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:17.640
all the things I love about filler
anyway, too much? Shot up,

392
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:22.400
Danielle ahead and talk about the episode. How was it for you? Very

393
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.000
emotional? I got to watch a
screener for it, so I watched it

394
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:30.920
three days before it came out,
and that was one of the hardest things

395
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:37.519
I've had to sit on because it
was in a different way than the first

396
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.599
two episodes. There was so much
I wanted to talk about and so much

397
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:44.839
I needed to unpack. About it
and really just kind of deal with in

398
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:47.839
my head. And to have to
sit on that for three days and not

399
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.119
be able to talk to anyone about
it, it was really really hard,

400
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.440
because you know, we process things
by talking about them with each other.

401
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:57.680
And my first thought for this episode
was I literally walked out and said to

402
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:03.799
my boyfriend, I'm shell of the
person I used to be, because that's

403
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:07.160
how hard it hit, Like I
don't know that there's ever been anything that

404
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:14.599
has hit me as emotionally and so
quickly as episode three of the Last of

405
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.799
Us, and I spent a lot
of time trying to think about like why

406
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:22.720
that was. And first, obviously
it's a much better story for Bill and

407
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.599
Frank than the game. And is
it okay if I give game spoilers for

408
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.640
it? Yeah, that's fine,
or do I want to stay with that

409
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.319
okay? So in the game,
just to clarify it, to show how

410
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.599
different it is in the game,
Ellie and Joel meet Billy. They go

411
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.519
to find him. Joel's known him
in the past, but Ellie actually gets

412
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.440
a chance to meet Bill, and
Bill's pretty much the Bill we meet at

413
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:51.519
the beginning of episode three, and
you hear about Frank his partner again.

414
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.119
There's a hesitation there. I feel
like, if you're queer, you know

415
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:56.400
that it's meant to be a queer
partner, but if you're not, then

416
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:03.000
it might slip past you. But
Frank's left Bill, he didn't want to

417
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.440
be around him anymore, and you
think that's the end of the story,

418
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:08.240
that he's just going to be mentioned. Well, you end up in a

419
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:15.640
house and there's a dead body hanging
from the ceiling and it's Frank and Bill

420
00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:21.599
is devastated, and but he tries
to hide that with his gruff and grunchiness.

421
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:26.279
And then as you're exploring the house, Joel comes across a letter that

422
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.400
is a suicide note from Frank to
Bill if Bill ever found it, And

423
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:37.160
it is the most horrifying letter from
an ex lover to an ex lover that

424
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:44.119
I've ever read. And it basically
says that Frank would rather be dead than

425
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:48.599
spend another day with Bill, and
he hopes that, you know, basically

426
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:52.200
says at least at least you're not
going to get that car battery. At

427
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:55.720
least I got to it first.
And it's so vengeful and so hateful,

428
00:30:56.279 --> 00:31:00.279
and it's heartbreaking, and that's what
I was expecting coming into this episode.

429
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:04.440
I was hoping for maybe something a
little bit better, not as horrifying and

430
00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:11.559
traumatic. But what we got,
instead of Bill's story being focused on hatred,

431
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.880
which it is until the last second
you meet him, it's focused instead

432
00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:22.279
on love and the number one theme
and the last of us is love and

433
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:27.000
it's many different manifestations and the toxicity
of love, the beauty of love,

434
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:34.559
and to change Bill's story to that
was such a good choice, and I

435
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:41.039
think again the benefit of perspective because
instead of seeing a traumatic queer love story,

436
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:48.079
we got a beautiful, lifelong queer
love story that we so rarely get

437
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.240
to see in media, and that
meant so much to me. And at

438
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.599
the end of the day, I
was like, I would give up Bill

439
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:59.640
meeting Ellie a hundred times over if
it meant we got this story again.

440
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:05.160
And I think that a lot of
people, mostly outside the queer community that

441
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:08.799
I've seen, don't view it that
way, yeah, because it's not something

442
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.720
they've ever had to want, and
there's a you know, an ignorance there

443
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.200
and uh, you know, not
really seeing it for what it's meant to

444
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:24.559
be. A version of love that
is very hard to find ye now and

445
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:30.920
even more so in the Apocalypse.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm like crying honestly

446
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:39.119
about this thing, that story after
watching the episode. I can't imagine the

447
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:46.359
bill from the episode finding and reading
that letter. It's just heartbreaking. Yeah.

448
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.960
Yeah, And I'm glad you could
jump in a little bit because I

449
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.480
could not have spoken for a few
moments there, and I to me,

450
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.839
there's so much about that episode I
want to talk about, but I just

451
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:58.359
want to start with what you're saying
there about how rarely we get to see

452
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:02.119
queer joy. You know, I
grew up where some of the first in

453
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:06.759
the eighties and nineties we first started
to get a lot of gay characters.

454
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.160
I mean still very few, and
there were never main characters, but you

455
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:13.559
know on TV shows and you got
like Will and Grace and stuff like that,

456
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:19.480
but almost always someone was dying of
HIV AIDS. You know, the

457
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.759
character was there because they were going
to get beaten up in a kind of

458
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:28.319
act of homophobic or transphobic violence for
our main character to be inspired by in

459
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:30.279
some way, you know, and
the stories was all, you know,

460
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:36.200
to the point of it became a
trope called bury your gaze and that like

461
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:37.960
if you have a story about two
gay people, especially if they fall in

462
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:44.640
love, one of them has to
die. And so to have this story

463
00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:47.880
where these two people fall in love, and some people pushed back said,

464
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:51.680
oh, there's so toxic, they
break each other's boundaries all the time.

465
00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:53.480
I think there's some truth to that, But I think part of it's about

466
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:59.799
the struggle to find love and connection
in an apocalypse, and that's where I

467
00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.880
think this episode ties in so well
to the episode that comes after about how

468
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:07.440
hard it is to let down your
walls and have connection. And of course

469
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:12.320
there's toxicness all over the place,
but the fact that they build this beautiful

470
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:17.360
little life together two people from vastly
different worldviews, that they learn to see

471
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.840
each other and to hear each other
with some very real stumbles, to be

472
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:25.679
sure, and some real boundary breaking
and to acknowledge, but that even with

473
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:31.920
that, they find love and they
find connection, and that they wind up

474
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:37.159
living a full life where they the
fact that they die in a way that

475
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.119
has nothing to do with the zombies, that has nothing to do with the

476
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:44.119
raiders. It's a little bit connected
to the lack of medical care, that

477
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:45.840
maybe they could have stretched out their
life, but as I clearly say,

478
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:50.280
it's not something that would have been
fixed, that would have been cured.

479
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:54.159
They one of them dies of natural
causes and the other gets to basically decide

480
00:34:54.199 --> 00:35:02.039
to commit euthanasia along with him.
Now I'm worked up in It was so

481
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:06.000
beautiful to get to see that,
because to me, the message of that

482
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:12.679
is that in the midst of this
incredibly broken time that we're about to get

483
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:17.360
a story of Joel and Ellie trying
to see can they build connections with each

484
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:22.760
other, that we start by seeing
yes, it is possible, and that

485
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:27.519
it is two men having gay love
for each other that can have this um.

486
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.920
You know, forgive me for the
genre switch here, but you know,

487
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.840
finding love in a hopeless place,
that's literally what it is. And

488
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.400
it was just it was such a
beautiful story. But I think also you're

489
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:38.800
right, Danielle, if you're not
queer, if you're not connected to those

490
00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:45.360
communities or or you know friends or
family with people those communities, it's hard

491
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:51.159
to understand why that mattered quite so
much. Yeah, And that's why that's

492
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:53.559
why I wrote the piece I did
for simple Geek, because when I watched

493
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:55.760
it, like I said, I
watched it a few days before it came

494
00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:00.639
out. I was so worried that
people's biggest focus was going to be on

495
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.960
Bill not meeting Ellie and the lack
of interaction there, because that is a

496
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.840
really fun part of the game.
But I would have loved to see Bill

497
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:15.480
Offerman's not Bill Nick Afferman's Bill meet
Fella Ramsey's Ellie. I think that would

498
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.800
have been hilarious. I also think
Frank would have loved Ellie. But I

499
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.159
was so worried people were going to
be so hung up on that that they

500
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:28.480
would look past the beauty of this
story. And some people were hung up

501
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:32.519
on it, but the vast majority
I was so happy to see were on

502
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:37.880
board with a one hundred percent,
And I think that that really speaks to

503
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:44.719
a couple things. One, the
power of storytelling in this series is just

504
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:50.039
I mean, the level of the
level of it is astronomical. It's just

505
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:53.159
done so well. The acting,
every aspect of storytelling here has just done

506
00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:58.039
so well. And then also the
fact that it's it's twenty twenty three now,

507
00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:00.280
and when that game was made it
was twenty thirteen, or when it

508
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:06.199
was published it was twenty thirteen,
and so much has changed. I'm a

509
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.280
teacher at university, and I think
that that's the place where you people can

510
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:15.440
really see the way that things have
changed identity wise, and especially for the

511
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:21.679
queer community, because even though things
aren't the way that they should be now,

512
00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:24.719
even compared to when I was in
high school, when I was in

513
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:32.320
university, people are so much more
accepting in certain places than they were when

514
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:37.880
I was that age. And I
think it's easier for a story like this

515
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:43.400
to come out now than it would
have been in twenty thirteen. Not to

516
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:45.480
say that there weren't stories like this
in twenty thirteen, that there weren't actual

517
00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:52.119
lives living stories like this then,
but for it to be as widely accepted,

518
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:57.480
it's so beautiful to see in a
real I think, testament to the

519
00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:00.840
fact that these stories can change lives
and can change society. Yeah. I

520
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:06.000
mean, it's by no means the
only definition of when gay rights happened or

521
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:09.000
queer rights happened. But the over
fell Supreme Court decision in the United States

522
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:13.719
legalizing gay marriage that happened two years
after this game came out, you know,

523
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:15.199
I mean, that is how recent
a lot of these changes have happened.

524
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:22.119
That just made me realize I mean, it hit me really hard when

525
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:29.239
they got married on Fred's last day. Oh my god. Okay, And

526
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:34.079
looking back when the world shut down
for the pandemic, it was two thousand

527
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:37.239
and three, and that wouldn't have
been okay. Gay marriage wasn't legalized,

528
00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:43.679
And the fact that they got to
have a private ceremony and be married on

529
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:51.039
their last day together is just so
beautiful. Yeah, And even just stepping

530
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:54.400
away from that part of it,
that last day story meant so much to

531
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:59.280
me. And I'm going to get
into some very serious subjects here and so

532
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:02.880
trigger warned for people making decisions similar
to what they decided in the show.

533
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.280
My mother died of cancer about seven
years ago. Now, eight years ago.

534
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:14.159
We knew she could use chemo,
she could use all of these things

535
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:17.239
to extend her life as long as
possible in a way that was not going

536
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:21.559
to be pleasant for her, or
she could just enjoy the last couple months

537
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:24.159
of her life eating and smoking and
drinking and having time with her family the

538
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:28.880
way she wanted. And that was
hard for us. But I think their

539
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:32.559
decision of her getting to go out
on her own terms was one that was

540
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:37.199
really important to me and one that
I've continued to support and when I've been

541
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:43.119
adjacent to other families where I think
especially this happened a lot during the pandemic.

542
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:45.119
And again here I'm going to be
touching on some very sensitive stuff,

543
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:50.440
but you know, I think there
were families where I knew older people who

544
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.639
were saying I don't want to live. However, Long's pandemic is going in

545
00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:58.360
total isolation. I'm okay taking those
chances so that i can be with my

546
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.400
people and be with my family.
And I'm not judging out anyone else handle

547
00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:08.239
those things. But to see that
kind of discussion happen in this in the

548
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:14.440
show, and to come to the
conclusion that they did, of especially because

549
00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:21.800
each character clearly says I love you, I want you to be a part

550
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:25.360
of my life, but I have
made a decision regarding my death that you

551
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:30.440
do not get to have any control
over. And Frank does it, and

552
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:34.400
Bill is heartbroken. And then when
Bill does the same thing, you can

553
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:38.280
tell Frank's upset and he says that
beautiful thing about I'm upset. I didn't

554
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:42.119
want this, but it's also incredibly
romantic. But to me, that was

555
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:45.840
also Frank saying you have the exact
same rights that I do. I get

556
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:47.360
to decide when my time is up, and you get to decide when your

557
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:52.880
time is up. And it was
just, it was so beautiful about an

558
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:57.679
issue that is so rarely discussed in
those kind of terms. Yeah, I

559
00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:04.840
agree. I think that it was
the beauty of having a choice of getting

560
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.239
like you said, getting to go
out on your own terms, and the

561
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:14.480
fact that they didn't die from this
apocalypse. They died of natural causes.

562
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:16.280
Essentially, they made the choice to
go out the way they wanted to,

563
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:22.800
and that's not something that often happens
in real like outside of the apocalypse,

564
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:28.880
let alone inside it. And I
think the line that broke me that I

565
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:32.760
like, audibly, like was sobbing
and wailing over was when Frank said,

566
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:39.400
then love me the way I want
you to, because outside of this being

567
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:44.760
a queer love story, it's just
a love story. And that I feel

568
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.519
like can be that many people,
not even just in the queer community,

569
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.920
can relate to because love is such
a I always say this, love is

570
00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:00.519
a profoundly selfish and selfless thing,
and it shouldn't be able to work the

571
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:06.760
way it does because of that necessity, and it's so difficult to ask someone

572
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:12.199
to trust someone to love you the
way that you need them to, and

573
00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:15.920
that like, in some ways it
might be selfish to ask of that,

574
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:20.480
but it's also selfless to give that. And the way that that works is

575
00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:24.199
that balance is giving the love that
that person needs and knowing that they're going

576
00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:29.320
to also give you the love that
you need. And I felt that that

577
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:34.519
was portrayed so well in this episode
that we got to see throughout their lives

578
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.760
that you know, when Bill needed
to give a little to make Frank happy,

579
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:42.960
he did. When Frank needed to
give a little to make Bill happy,

580
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:47.559
he did. And that's what love
is, compromises and coming together and

581
00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.039
still staying true to yourself, but
also acknowledging that this person is important enough

582
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:58.000
to you that you are willing to
live maybe a little differently than you would

583
00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:01.760
otherwise. And I just thought that
was so beautiful and it's a great message

584
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:07.159
and a great counter to the type
of love that maybe we'll see throughout the

585
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:12.800
rest of the series and or not
counter. But just like you know,

586
00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:17.760
love isn't the same across groups of
people, and it manifests in different ways,

587
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.559
and I think it's nice to have
those examples of what love can look

588
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:30.400
like when what you said. Also
again, I'm just so struck by the

589
00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:34.199
brilliance of the writing and how it
all ties together, because earlier we were

590
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:37.519
talking about how, you know part
of Joel. Part of what Joel goes

591
00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:40.880
through with Ellie in episode four,
you know, he had told her don't

592
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:45.880
have a gun, don't have a
gun, and his acceptance of her part

593
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.599
of it is like he realizes she
lied to him, she stole a gun,

594
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:52.280
she did all these things he told
her not to do, and he

595
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:55.280
has to accept that, and instead, as you said, so powerfully,

596
00:43:55.320 --> 00:44:00.800
he's the one who apologize to her. They set up the connection that Bill

597
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:04.920
understands that Bill and Joel are very
similar. And I think part of what

598
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:09.480
the love me the way I want
you to for me. That's a very

599
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:15.199
powerful thing as the person who's more
the person being taken care of to say

600
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:17.400
to the protector, to say to
the person caring, because it's also saying

601
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:21.800
I know you want to keep me
safe. I know you want to protect

602
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.559
me. But loving me has to
be willing to take chances, it has

603
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:29.159
to be willing to lose me,
it has to be willing to love me.

604
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:30.519
And the way I want to be
loved, not the way you want

605
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:34.920
to protect me. And I can
never made the connection, but I think

606
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:38.199
that's what Joel is learning, is
that to care for Ellie and to protect

607
00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:42.719
her means to I don't think they're
ready for the word love, but but

608
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:45.360
that basically is what it is.
It's learning to care for her and to

609
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:49.880
relate to her the way she wants, not just the way he wants.

610
00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:52.960
Where in that sending to a longer
stands that he doesn't want another Sarah and

611
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:57.480
he doesn't want to lose her again
and that's yeah, it all ties together,

612
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:01.360
so well, yeah, yeah,
I think especially because he's asking Ellie

613
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:07.360
to do a lot and he's not
really until I think episode for given much

614
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:12.079
to her except for protection. And
I think that what we see a lot,

615
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:16.079
especially with him finally caving and laughing
at the puns, is that he

616
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:21.400
realizes that that can't continue, like
he has to give a little too,

617
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.960
And that was a really beautiful thing
to see. Yeah, for me,

618
00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:30.920
the scene with the puns and like
the sleeping bags just reminded me of like

619
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:35.119
a sleepover when I was a kid, you know, and it's like dark

620
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:38.519
and you and your friends are all
tucked away and no one person starts laughing

621
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:42.760
and the other person starts laughing.
Go to bed, Go to bed,

622
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:46.000
No, you go to bed.
And I just thought it was a really

623
00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:52.400
beautiful moment of connection between the two
of them. M yeah, you know

624
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:57.559
the fact that Joel finally laughs at
her joke and he's starting to crack a

625
00:45:57.559 --> 00:46:00.840
little bit, and you know,
he guesses and she goes, oh you

626
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:05.440
dick, and they have that little
fight and and they go to sleep.

627
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:10.920
I think, feeling a little safer
with one another. Yeah it watch it

628
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:14.519
with my partner and then telling my
other partner about it. I mean,

629
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:17.280
I have in my dating profiles like
you must love bad puns as a form

630
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:22.199
of love language, and like,
you know, my partner Mary will often

631
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:25.440
groan at the bad puns and we've
realized, like that's that's the sign of

632
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:30.239
appreciation. But maybe one out of
every fifth, out of every like five,

633
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:32.119
maybe one out of every like five
or ten times I'll get her to

634
00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:37.199
laugh and it's just such this happy
moment. And like, so seeing that

635
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:40.039
moment for Joel, it just I
connected with it so well and it was

636
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:45.320
just so good. Um. The
one thing I want to say about that

637
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:47.000
episode, and we can talk about
some of the other stuff, but I

638
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:50.880
think we've hit a lot of the
stuff I wanted to cover. The other

639
00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.440
were two episodes before episode three,
so they deserve a mention or two somewhere.

640
00:46:55.159 --> 00:47:00.639
The fact that Ron Swanson. Forgive
me nick Offerman, but basically,

641
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:04.119
I mean he was playing Ron Swanson
in the Apocalypse. You know, it

642
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:08.000
was such a similar character, and
that character, as played by Nick Offerman,

643
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:15.480
was so much the symbol of libertarian
masculine manhood and manly manly ways.

644
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:17.960
You know, I eat only meat, and I have all my guns,

645
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:21.639
and I have a permit that says
I can do what I want. It

646
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:24.920
says I can do what I want. And yes, that character is meant

647
00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:29.440
to be a parody of that kind
of masculinity, but also became kind of

648
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:32.880
an icon of it in many ways. Nine times out of ten, I'm

649
00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:37.480
going to say I want a gay
character played by a gay actor. I

650
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.320
can't say how much it meant to
me that it was Nick Offferman playing in

651
00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:45.719
that part. And for me,
there's a double sense of it because I

652
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:49.840
am a gleek. I've revealed this
terrible secret about myself. Another podcast and

653
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:52.559
earlier in the day, the Sunday
that I watched the episode, I was

654
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:58.079
listening to a podcast about Glee where
Chris Coulter, the actor who played Kurt

655
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:04.159
Hummel, who famously gay in the
show, was talking and his actor,

656
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:07.239
the actor Chris himself is also gay
and he got outed against his permission in

657
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:13.159
the course of the show. And
he talked about how how much his publicists

658
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.199
and his agents and everyone around him
been been telling him, don't you ever

659
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:21.559
get seen like wearing something or kissing
another man like in his private life.

660
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.039
If people know that you, as
an actor are gay, you'll never get

661
00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:28.800
cast again. And Chris is an
actor who I think he himself said this,

662
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:31.480
like, you gotta kind of work
hard to think he could be straight,

663
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:35.559
Like, I mean, anyone can
me it's not just stereotypes, but

664
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:39.119
he's not. It's not a huge
leap to guess that he is. And

665
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:43.400
so for that to have happened literally
only like fifteen and sixteen years ago.

666
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:47.719
And then now Nick Offerman this gay
this you know, super masculine, masculine

667
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:53.840
man play this part where it's not
just that like I've seen other straight actors

668
00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:59.159
play parts like this where there's one
chaste kiss on the lips, but mostly

669
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:02.079
there's not. There was and the
scenes were hot. The love scenes were

670
00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:06.639
incredibly erotic. He had a shirt
off for a lot of it. There

671
00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.239
was a lot of eroticism in them
and a lot of like it wasn't you

672
00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:14.039
know, it wasn't like, you
know, there's one clear masculine and then

673
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:15.599
like who's the top, who's the
bottom? They were both you know,

674
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:19.760
they were both bears, which I
love. I'm a bear type myself.

675
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:23.840
I can't say how much that meant, just that Nick Offerman would play this

676
00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:30.039
role and that it would be in
this show. It just I talked about

677
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:32.679
The Wire every now and then,
and Omar Little, who's like a gangster

678
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:37.320
who steals money from other drug dealers
and is also gay, was a revolutionary

679
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:42.039
figure because The Wire, or show
about cops and criminals, is not where

680
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.159
you expect to have a gay main
character. And I kind of feel the

681
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:47.599
same about this, like the fact
that it's not a show on Bravo that's

682
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:51.119
going to have a lot of queer
content, which I love those shows,

683
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:54.920
but the fact that it's Nick Offerman
in a zombie show, I just can't

684
00:49:54.920 --> 00:50:00.320
put into words. How much that
meant. Yeah, I think the it's

685
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:08.960
something that is so sorely needed because
you have people who maybe otherwise wouldn't be

686
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:15.079
so on board with the story.
But who let I mean, I don't

687
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:16.639
know how you could be a fan
of Nick Offerman and then not be on

688
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:23.639
board with a story like this because
he's very publicly an ally. But maybe

689
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:27.960
people watching it who might be a
little more of the typical you know Bill

690
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.199
we see at the beginning of the
episode themselves and might relate to him in

691
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:37.559
many ways forced to think about if
they can relate to him in this way

692
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:40.360
and forced to you know, that
doesn't mean that you have to be gay,

693
00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:45.199
but can you be emotional? Can
you open yourself up to someone?

694
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:51.000
And that is a way you can
relate to someone, You don't have to

695
00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:55.400
be exactly like them. I think
a lot of times sometimes toxic masculinity in

696
00:50:55.400 --> 00:51:00.360
our society has encouraged you know,
straight men and straight sis men to think

697
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:08.280
that they can't relate to gay men
because that makes them gay. But the

698
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:13.800
human connection goes so much deeper than
that, and I think that I hope

699
00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:19.320
that this is something that showed that
to these people who might think that way.

700
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:25.719
And I've seen comments of people who
have, you know, southern conservative

701
00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:31.199
parents who are watching the show,
but who actually we're crying at the end

702
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:36.760
of that episode because they could relate
to Bill's choices, like these men can

703
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:39.880
relate to Bill's choices, Bill wanting
to protect Frank, Bill at the end,

704
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:45.679
choosing to go with him instead of
because that was his purpose and instead

705
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:49.800
of living without his purpose. And
I think that that is such an important

706
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:52.239
part of storytelling, and like I
said, I hope, I hope that

707
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:57.320
it changes things, even if it's
just little things in people's minds that make

708
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:01.000
them think differently about this. Yeah, I'm with you there, especially even

709
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:05.719
putting aside anything about the fact that
the partner Bill is with his mail.

710
00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:09.440
I've don't like counseling work, and
like sex said work with with younger book.

711
00:52:09.880 --> 00:52:14.639
I've done counseling work and sex said
work with young men. And one

712
00:52:14.679 --> 00:52:17.719
thing that I often here talked about
is that all media, when it shows

713
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:22.000
just two heterosexual people, or you
know, a man and a woman who

714
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:24.280
are going to have their first sexual
encounter, generates as their teenagers or young

715
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:29.920
adults. The woman is nervous,
the woman has all these feelings of vulnerability

716
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:32.239
and fear and stuff like that,
and the man is like, cool,

717
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.360
I'm about to get late, and
that's that's what it is. And I

718
00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:39.239
would talk to young men who had
a lot of feelings of nervousness and vulnerability

719
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:43.840
around their first sexual experience, either
that had happened or there was going to

720
00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.000
happen, and felt like he had
never been seen. And so they say

721
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:50.320
that Bill has one time been with
a woman, but I think it's it's

722
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.960
pretty clear that like this is his
first time in many many ways, the

723
00:52:54.000 --> 00:53:00.159
amount of vulnerability that he showed as
Frank is sort of approaching him on the

724
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:04.840
bed where he's not. I never
doubted that he was consenting, but I

725
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:08.400
saw that nervousness and that vulnerability.
I have never seen that from a man

726
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:14.239
about a first sexual encounter, and
that alone was just I'm getting so worked

727
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:19.199
up because of how much that meant
to me. Yeah, So, since

728
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:22.440
I was kind of speed watching these
episodes, I was trying to fit it

729
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:27.960
in during my twelve hour workday yesterday. So I was sitting there in the

730
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:32.360
break room eating my lunch, and
it was the scene of Frank and Bill

731
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:37.920
kissing for the first time and being
intimate in the bed and my friend walks

732
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.079
in and she kind of looks over
my shoulder. She's like, oh,

733
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:44.599
what are you watching. I was
like, Oh, I'm just watching Nick

734
00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:50.360
Offerman falling in Love of Gaby relationship. She was like, oh cool.

735
00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:54.719
It was the scene where Frank was
kissing down Bill's chest and she was like,

736
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:59.679
does he want that? And I
was like, yes, yes,

737
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:04.199
it's his first time other than with
a girl a long time ago, but

738
00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:08.039
yes, And she was like,
oh, okay. He looked kind of

739
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:14.639
fearful. And I think that what
you said is very true. We don't

740
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:20.039
see that kind of vulnerability in men, especially for big, quote unquote manly

741
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:23.679
men like Bill, like Nick Gofferman, and I think that it was very

742
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:30.159
important to see on screen. So
I know that there's some zombies that appear

743
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.400
somewhere in this show, and we
should probably talk about them at least a

744
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:37.000
little bit. I mean, I
will say that the zombie genre has never

745
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:39.320
really appealed to me that much,
and part of what I love about the

746
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:45.719
show is so far at least it
really feels like a show about what people

747
00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:50.559
do in post apocalyptic settings, where
the zombies are just the mcguffin to get

748
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:53.159
us to a post apocalyptic setting.
But obviously there are all zombies and that's

749
00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:59.280
an important genre, and they're doing
this really interesting take on them with the

750
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:02.280
whole idea of it a fungus and
the connectivity and that we're not doing the

751
00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:06.199
classic like you die and then come
back as a zombie, Like these people

752
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:09.199
are not undead in that traditional way
for both of you, like kind of

753
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:13.480
talk more about that side of the
story as sort of how do you feel

754
00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:15.800
about this as a zombie story in
the way they're using that as moving the

755
00:55:16.119 --> 00:55:22.079
thing that moves the plot. I've
never really been into zombie or like apocalypse

756
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:27.480
stuff. It just never really grabbed
me in the past. It all felt

757
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:30.519
like just swarms of zombies that moved
so slow, but no matter how fast

758
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:35.679
you run, they're always going to
catch you. But this idea that it's

759
00:55:35.719 --> 00:55:39.320
a fungus, it's an intelligence,
and it grows and it wants to consume

760
00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:45.320
the earth and consume the population.
They are slow moving, but they're incredibly

761
00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:50.719
dangerous because one bite, one piece
of infection, and you have fifteen hours

762
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:55.679
maximum until you're one of them,
and you're trapped inside your brain with this

763
00:55:55.719 --> 00:56:00.679
fungus controlling you. And I don't
know exactly what was happening with the tests

764
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:02.920
when she turned and he was putting
that thing in her mouth, but my

765
00:56:04.039 --> 00:56:07.400
understanding is he was kind of planting
like a hive mind into her. And

766
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.639
then they all blew up, so
it didn't matter. But I just thought

767
00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:15.840
it was a new and interesting take
unlike zombies or infected that I just haven't

768
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:22.760
seen before. Yeah, going off
of that about Tess's scene, her death

769
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:27.639
scene, so I was really intrigued
by that. And they talked about this

770
00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:32.199
in their podcast. Craig Mazin and
Nick Truckman talked about an official Last of

771
00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:37.480
Us podcast about how they really wanted
to play around with the idea of why

772
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:43.480
a fungus zombie was different than an
undead zombie or like, you know,

773
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:47.519
Kenny, is that contradictive, But
in the idea is that the fungus has

774
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:52.920
a purpose, if you will,
and that's to spread as far as possible

775
00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:57.760
where us. You know, the
undead don't really have a purpose just to

776
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:02.239
eat flush. In the games,
kind of the fungus part of it is

777
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:07.480
kind of taken away a little bit. It's not as prominent as it is

778
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:09.360
in the show, and so it
does seem like in the game like they

779
00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:14.119
just want to eat the fleshy,
that they don't really care about spreading anything.

780
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:19.199
But in the show, their primary
objective or purpose is to spread as

781
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:22.320
far as possible, to implant this
in as many people as possible. So

782
00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:27.440
if that's the purpose, would you
be aggressive one hundred percent of the time

783
00:57:27.559 --> 00:57:30.800
or would it just be when people
resisted? And so Craig Massen and Neil

784
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:36.360
Druckman wanted to see what it looked
like when someone didn't resist, and that

785
00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:44.440
was that it was very not brutal. It was disgusting, but not fierce.

786
00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:50.800
And I thought that that was really
interesting to think about because the fungus

787
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:54.519
is is different and it is there
is a type of intelligence to it.

788
00:57:54.679 --> 00:58:00.760
I think lots of people have talked
about fungi and you know, plants about

789
00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:04.719
their own type of intelligence that they
have, and to see how that can

790
00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:09.599
manifest through a body that isn't dead, that is still very much alive,

791
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:17.400
is very interesting and terrifying because I
would rather be undead than still alive,

792
00:58:17.719 --> 00:58:23.760
yeah, and have and be treated
as a puppet. And that's that's what

793
00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:30.239
these infected are they're still somewhere in
their brain, just not able to control

794
00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:34.039
their bodies anymore. The fungus is
doing that for them. And I think

795
00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:39.880
that that is just like absolutely terrifying
and a really interesting way to tell a

796
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:45.480
story like this. It really is
in part first of all, because it

797
00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:49.639
cuts off any degree of mysticism that
has to do with zombies, And like,

798
00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:53.199
I think this is just a kind
of trend that's been going, is

799
00:58:53.199 --> 00:58:57.679
that we're getting further and further away
from their kind of being something mystical or

800
00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:01.360
magical about zombies in heart, which
is good because a lot of the original

801
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:06.440
stuff kind of has some really like
racist ideas about like Vudan and kind of

802
00:59:06.440 --> 00:59:09.840
Caribbean mystical cultures and things like that. But also just like it's getting more

803
00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:15.039
to the the end of being something
natural in a way, which I really

804
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:17.559
appreciate, but I also love because
of the metaphor that that is. Like,

805
00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:21.159
I mean, think about the way
you were talking about fungus, and

806
00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:23.960
now if you think back to the
original Matrix movie and Agent Smith, he

807
00:59:24.039 --> 00:59:28.679
basically describes humanity in that exact same
way. He calls them a virus,

808
00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:31.159
not a fungus, but that same
thing of just like the need for growth

809
00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:36.239
at all costs and just subsuming everything
it comes into contact with. I mean,

810
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:39.639
that's kind of humanity too. And
there's also a great metaphor there of

811
00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:44.079
you in terms of international supply chains
and our food and like the fact the

812
00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:47.480
idea that gets into the food and
that's then just so basic that it gets

813
00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:52.840
everywhere. Danielle. You usually put
out a great video about this, about

814
00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:55.960
how it could be on TikTok,
about how it could be that it's it's

815
00:59:57.159 --> 01:00:00.559
able to withstand cooking. But even
that, there's so many ways we consume

816
01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:04.440
flour that hasn't been cooked, whether
it's cookie dough, although you came from

817
01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:07.280
my cookie dough, which I was
not okay with, but also you know,

818
01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:10.159
like every time I baked bread,
I spread raw flour on there to

819
01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:12.679
you know, just to be able
to you know, to be able to

820
01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:16.760
work with the dough and things like
that. And yeah, it's I grew

821
01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:21.320
up with vampires. I know.
There's all sorts of generational or political debates

822
01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:24.079
about vampires for zombies, and to
me, I'm I'm much moren't shot vampires.

823
01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:27.760
But if you're gonna give me a
zombie, story. I feel like

824
01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:30.239
this is the perfect way to do
it because you're doing any inching twist on

825
01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:31.960
it, and for the most part, the story is not really about zombies.

826
01:00:31.960 --> 01:00:37.880
It's about the apocalypse. Yeah.
Yeah. I tweeted a couple of

827
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:40.039
weeks ago because when the first episode
came out, I saw a lot of

828
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:44.400
people saying, Oh, you know, if it wasn't for Pedro Pascal being

829
01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:49.840
in this, I wouldn't watch it
because I'm just tired of another zombie story.

830
01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:52.159
And I was like, Oh,
it's it's so much more than that.

831
01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:54.199
And I don't expect people who haven't
played the game to understand that,

832
01:00:54.559 --> 01:00:58.440
but I was trying to get across
that, like, in my mind,

833
01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:04.280
it's different even than the Walking,
Like it uses zombies as a background,

834
01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:07.880
a foundation to tell the story,
and technically they're not even really zombies.

835
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:10.360
I guess it depends on how you
want to define zombies. But they that's

836
01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:15.239
just the foundation, that's just the
you know, the setting of this.

837
01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:19.639
It is so much more about human
connection. And I meant that in the

838
01:01:19.719 --> 01:01:25.599
way that like that is more the
focus than it usually is in in zombie

839
01:01:25.639 --> 01:01:32.519
stories and undead stories whatever, in
such a different way, like I don't.

840
01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:35.519
I don't really know how to explain
it, and I think that can

841
01:01:35.559 --> 01:01:40.039
across in the tweet because I'm aware
that zombies and vampires are metaphors for are

842
01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:45.320
largely metaphors for the human condition,
for you know, humanity and society,

843
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:51.480
and that none of these stories is
really about the monster. It's about people,

844
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:57.559
and I get that, but I
also feel like sometimes creators don't dive

845
01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:00.679
into that in more than a metaphor
oracle sense, if that makes sense.

846
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:06.960
And my point is that The Last
of Us does. It dives into it

847
01:02:07.599 --> 01:02:09.559
in a way that's not really a
metaphor. It does have metaphors for it,

848
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:15.719
but it separates itself from that a
bit. And I think that's what

849
01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:19.280
makes it so special, is that, Yeah, you have these these creatures

850
01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:21.639
that you have to kill and that
you have to you don't want to get

851
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:24.239
infected. That is a risk,
but it's just another risk among many,

852
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:30.039
and like that's become a natural part
of it. And to me, it's

853
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:34.880
different than things like The Walking Dead
and Warm Bodies and you know, all

854
01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:37.960
the other zombie media out there,
warm Bodies being I think the best Romeo

855
01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:42.840
and Juliet Juliette out of patient that's
never been. But that's all of the

856
01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:47.719
story. I'm just gonna say,
I've never been so happy to be gluten.

857
01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:53.719
I mean, I don't think they're
infecting almond flowery, you know what

858
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:59.400
I mean. I appreciate that.
I appreciate that perspective. Anything in the

859
01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:05.239
last comments to use, we wrap
up. Oh, I guess just one

860
01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:07.480
thing really quickly. We didn't talk
a lot about Tests, but I do

861
01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:12.360
want to give that character a shout
out, especially in the show, because

862
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:15.039
they went into so much more depth
with her character in the show than they

863
01:03:15.079 --> 01:03:17.719
do in the game, and they
really made her in the short time that

864
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:23.599
she was there a female role model
for Ellie. And even though they had

865
01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:29.159
a few conversations, the conversations they
did have were Tests trying to impart some

866
01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:32.559
wisdom on Ellie and try to make
sure that she stays alive and that she

867
01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:37.559
knows that just because she's just because
she's a mune doesn't mean that she's immortal,

868
01:03:38.199 --> 01:03:42.599
and there are other ways for her
to die in the society. And

869
01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:46.559
it's such an important lesson for Ellie
and to have it be Tests who teaches

870
01:03:46.559 --> 01:03:50.920
her that I think is really important
because there's so few female role models for

871
01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:53.599
her, and I loved that.
I also thought that her death scene was

872
01:03:53.599 --> 01:04:00.400
a lot more hard hitting than it
was in the game. Oh my god.

873
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:02.639
I didn't think she was going to
be able to light it, like

874
01:04:03.239 --> 01:04:06.599
just looking at and I was like, you couldn't test this before. I

875
01:04:06.679 --> 01:04:11.559
was like, no, why wouldn't
you ask Joel for his lighter? Just

876
01:04:11.679 --> 01:04:16.880
engaged. I heard this idea once
that the Zippo lighter company was gonna come

877
01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:19.239
up with some kind of lawsuit because, like, as someone who used to

878
01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:24.599
smoke, I was a goth,
I smoked clothes. Cigarettes still miss them,

879
01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:28.480
but god, they're terrible for you. And I can tell you,

880
01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:31.039
like the whole point of zippos is
they're much more reliable than your average just

881
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:33.840
like you know, two door lighter. And so the fact that in every

882
01:04:33.880 --> 01:04:38.320
movie that a Zippo has ever been
pulled out either us to show that someone

883
01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:41.119
is sexy because they can use it, but most of the time it's gonna

884
01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:45.280
build dramatic tension around it, won't
light, like the Zippo company has reason

885
01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:47.800
for a lawsuits all I'm gonna say. But more seriously, though, I

886
01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:50.760
guess this should be my wrap up
comment, it's funny that the three of

887
01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:55.079
us just recorded on Star Wars and
are now doing this because part of what

888
01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:58.280
you were really ruined to me,
of Danielle, is that both of you,

889
01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:02.639
this is fundamentally a story about finding
hope, and in a lot of

890
01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:05.360
ways, there's kind of some weird
parallels with like you know, Ellie is

891
01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:09.719
kind of like the Rebel Plans.
You know, it's like the Death Star

892
01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:13.599
Plans. It's a thing that can
give us hope. And it again,

893
01:05:13.679 --> 01:05:16.719
to me, is why I think
it's so important that we have the Bill

894
01:05:16.760 --> 01:05:21.519
and Frank story, because I think
there's something to be said for You're in

895
01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:27.840
this horrible situation, and so your
job is to fight the situation and to

896
01:05:27.920 --> 01:05:31.320
make the situation better and to have
hope that everything can change. And I

897
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:34.840
think that's a very important story,
and I think that's clearly what we're going

898
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:39.360
to get with the rest of this
show. I assume no spoilers, please,

899
01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:43.760
but I've seen a Hollywood story.
I have some ideas, although clearly

900
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:46.079
it's not going to be exactly what
I expect. But Bill and Frank give

901
01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:49.480
you something very different, and they're
kind of like the top from Clone Wars.

902
01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:55.800
Of that. It's like, because
Bill gives up on any possibility that

903
01:05:55.840 --> 01:05:58.599
he can work with people like Joel
or anything like. I don't think he

904
01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:01.760
knows that Ellie exists, but he
gives up on the idea that his role

905
01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:05.239
is to help everybody. Him and
Frank are just like, we're not here

906
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:11.440
to help everybody. We're here to
create this little corner of stability insanity.

907
01:06:12.119 --> 01:06:15.199
And to me, I love that
that the show is saying there is hope

908
01:06:15.199 --> 01:06:16.960
for that. And there's both these
kinds of hope. There's the hope that

909
01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:23.039
you can be part of the movement
to fix everything, but also there's just

910
01:06:23.079 --> 01:06:26.239
a hope that you can survive and
you can find love and you can manage

911
01:06:26.239 --> 01:06:29.639
to get through. And in a
world where so many of us are burning

912
01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:31.400
out because we feel like we have
to constantly be fighting everything, I think

913
01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:36.760
there's something beautiful in holding up both
of those as equal, equally valid ways

914
01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:42.599
to find hope. I think it's
kind of like how it's so important to

915
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:46.239
have shows like and or in Star
Wars, but that gets so heavy and

916
01:06:46.400 --> 01:06:54.960
so traumatizing that it's also a necessity
to have shows like The Bad Batch and

917
01:06:55.079 --> 01:07:00.960
Rebels that are still very emotional and
still very meaningful, but approach the topic

918
01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:06.440
in a way that is a little
bit easier on your soul. And you

919
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:11.280
need that balance of it. You
can't just have like one or the other.

920
01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:15.559
I love the TV show The Boys, but I think part of why

921
01:07:15.559 --> 01:07:19.679
I like it there's nothing else in
the Boys universe. But ever so much

922
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:25.199
of the superhero universe is hope and
is goodness and is optimism. Yet to

923
01:07:25.239 --> 01:07:28.800
me the Boys as and Or,
it's so dark and it's so and they're

924
01:07:28.840 --> 01:07:30.760
going from more and more gross out, which I hate. But that's a

925
01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:32.039
whole other story. But but yeah, it's the same kind of thing of

926
01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:36.079
like and Or the Boys. They
work because they're a counterpoint to everything else

927
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:41.400
that's out there. All right,
Well, thank you both so much for

928
01:07:41.400 --> 01:07:44.039
being a part of this. For
people who want to hear more of you,

929
01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:46.119
a should check out Star Wars Universe
podcast because I just did some great

930
01:07:46.119 --> 01:07:49.679
content with both of them on the
Bad Batch. But for people aren't Star

931
01:07:49.679 --> 01:07:53.880
Wars people or just want to hear
from other things from you, Danielle,

932
01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:56.679
You've talked some about the other places
that people can find you give us just

933
01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:00.559
the rundown, Where do they find
your content on the Last of Us,

934
01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:04.000
on Star Wars, on all the
great things you talk about. So I'm

935
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:08.840
on TikTok, written in the Star
Wars, I'm on Instagram at Written in

936
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:13.719
the sw and Twitter Danny s three
nine four. I also occasionally write some

937
01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:17.079
articles for the Last of Us and
the Bad Batch on Temple of Geek Awesome.

938
01:08:17.279 --> 01:08:19.239
Yeah, and all those notes,
all those links will be in the

939
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:23.399
show notes. And for Aaron,
you're doing all this great stuff with cosplay

940
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:26.600
and learning about that. Where can
people find your content? Yeah, So

941
01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:34.119
my handle is Lady period Tano period
Creates, and that's on TikTok and Instagram

942
01:08:34.119 --> 01:08:38.800
mostly. Right now, I'm posting
just a lot of cosplay work in progress

943
01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:42.399
stuff, a few events I've been
to, and some other stuff about the

944
01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:46.920
podcast. But after watching the show
and watching the new Avatar movie The Way

945
01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:53.000
of Water, they've both really grabbed
me and I'm thinking, I think it's

946
01:08:53.000 --> 01:08:57.359
start. It's time to expand my
platform and start talking about some others.

947
01:08:57.880 --> 01:09:00.800
I love it. Well, thank
you both so much for our patrons.

948
01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:02.159
We're gonna have a little bit of
bonus content. We've been recording a while,

949
01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:04.960
so it's gonna be pretty darn short, but we all have a little

950
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:08.640
bit. But for everyone else,
of course, please think about supporting the

951
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:12.840
show through the podcast, through the
patron You can find it all on our

952
01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:15.520
show notes or on the website The
Ethical Panda. But if you also just

953
01:09:15.560 --> 01:09:18.880
go to patreon dot com the Ethical
Panda, you'll find it. You get

954
01:09:18.920 --> 01:09:21.479
access to our bonus content. Most
of you just help keep the show going.

955
01:09:21.800 --> 01:09:24.800
We'd love to hear your feedback.
What do you think of the show?

956
01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:27.199
As I said, we're going to
do more episodes on it. Professor

957
01:09:27.239 --> 01:09:30.119
Matthew Copal, He's going to come
on and talk about the folklore and history

958
01:09:30.199 --> 01:09:33.000
of zombies and all the different like
there's a whole political theory. I hadn't

959
01:09:33.039 --> 01:09:39.399
realized that about about zombies versus vampires, and different ideas about like you know,

960
01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:42.279
one being pre or one being post
HIV world. You know, there's

961
01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:44.880
so much stuff we're going to talk
about. We'll probably definitely have other people

962
01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:47.279
back on. Check out all that
give us feedback, The Ethical Panda dot

963
01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:49.960
com, Patreon dot com, all
the great links these do have, and

964
01:09:50.000 --> 01:10:02.800
most importantly, have a great day.