What is krack Lakin? Fellow thermonuclear affers, I am a Dan Pavali coming at you with my certified fantabulous co host, mister Grant Hugh's I'm going to bounce around some NBA Playoffs talk. If you have questions and you're in here, feel free to ask them. We will throw them up in the chat, or I'll answer them in the chat if even if I don't want to throw them up in the chat. Aside from that, we have to ask the most important question, the one that everyone cares about most, or at least I definitely care about most. Grant, how the heck are you doing? You definitely care about this more than maybe anybody else in my life, because you ask me how I'm doing all the time. I'm doing really well. We uh as. As we discussed, I'm always happy when some series end in the first because the first round is the hardest part of my year, because there's just too many important things to be paying attention to, and so anytime we can trim some of those things off, I'm always I'm always a happy guy. So that might seem counterintuitive because it means less basketball, but we've had a lot of basketball for a long time, and I'm ready to focus in on fewer things and hopefully do deeper dives and that kind of thing as we get fewer and fewer teams. So I'm doing, well, how are you doing? Do you feel the same way about the first round? Yeah, it's a dead There are times of year where I think the nature of our job, by the way, is just a dead sprint, like the entire when you're coming into but it's just a dead, dead sprint right now to where you look up and it's like, oh, two and a half weeks have passed. It feels like or whatever it is, reading into the third playoff weekend already and I just feel like I haven't had time to come up for air. So I do appreciate being it like munch on these series a little bit more because you're not just jumping from game to game on the same day, and so it allows for more critical thought. But then even that, it's like you have to start getting an off season prep. And then I feel like, certain when there's fewer series, even more stuff, isn't it picked about nationally? And some of it just like that becomes exhausting. So I want to ask you a follow up question that I don't think I prepared you for it, but this will be interesting anyway. Have you seen the comments? I know, I know the guy's whole job is to say things that make us annoyed and talk about the topic, hopefully like in emotional terms. But did you see Stephen A. Smith talking about how Kawhi Leonard should the Clippers should what was it the Clippers should force him to retire or ask him to retire? And if, first of all, did you see that? Am I the first person that's telling this to you? I didn't watch the clip. I saw full quote, and so like I'm hoping it wasn't as like egregious as it sounds, because that's when you talk about toxic or disingenuous coverage, that or talking points, that's it. It's not one of the best beat writers in the business. Asking janis if the number one seed failing to make it out of the first round against the number eight seed that had to come in or the team that had to come out of the play in is a failure. And I don't know if you am I brave for doing this? Who's to say? But I don't know if he saw my thread where I just I shit all over Mark Cuban because of the way he was, like, I wonder basically how artificial it was. He pays for Twitter Blue, so he had like a long ass thing. I did read it all, but basically how artificial intelligence might make the sports media industry better because of these like lazy questions essentially, And I'm like, first of all, he follows me on Twitter. I do not follow him, but he follows. I don't know why. I must have written something nice about him or the MAVs once and so my brave for posting this. Who's to say, really, but I think that? But no, in all seriousness, I said one, spare me the sports media sermon from the guy who made Bleacher Report way back when cried to ten Turner and had them take down a dirt forever tweet. Fucking petty ass billionaire shit like, spare me that, please, you're And the other thing is, it's a pletely fair question to where I don't want to deva from your topic. The actual unfair talking points is demanding that Kawhi Leonard retire because he clearly has like degenerative knees at this right, Is it like he didn't try. I mean, like, it's this, This puts to bed the if anything, the Clippers were like not conservative enough in load management, is what this says to me. And so I just I think, yeah, I'll let you continue, but I just and I also, I'm really glad you brought up the honest clip because I want to talk about that too. But yeah, sorry, continue about the Kawai Cuban thing. Yeah, it's I just know, I'm I don't know what your thoughts are. I know I can guess what you are, but like it's completely unfair, and it's there's and I want to get into like what the Clippers can and can't do this offseason, which is spoiler, they can't do a whole lot because of the new CBA. I don't know if you saw the other thing. By the way, so we know the second Apron stuff where you can't spend your mid level exception you can ad salary via trades. John Hollinger reported this a couple of days ago. I think and I missed it. You can't like aggregate to cut salary. It's like you can't say, hey, here are two thirty million dollar players for two twenty million dollars like combine twenty million dollars players and I'm like, what the what? I can't believe the players union agreed to this because they've functionally instituted a hard cap almost and so but the Kawai stuff, I don't know what to make of it because I feel really bad and he was so good and he was playing at least one game probably on a tourmniscus, maybe two, and to be that good still, I want to see him healthy when it matters most. I just I don't can you ever count on that now? And I don't. The answer is not blowing it up, And I think the Clippers came out and said they weren't going to do that, because what are you getting for Kawai and PG with all this time they've missed. They both could technically become free agents after next season. It's like, I don't even know what the market would look like. And you don't control your own draft until two twenty seven, so you need Kwai to be healthy. And I know you said maybe they didn't load manage him effectively enough. I don't know who posted this threat on Twitter, and I think it was a doctor of like physiology. I they talked about how load management isn't necessarily about rest, it's about recovery more. And I'm starting to wonder, like, are they doing him a disservice by not playing any more? But then I'm like, he just set out back to backs after December. It's not like they did anything crazy. And so unless there's something like absolutely ridiculous on the you know, like that that he's not recovering or not participating in any practices or stretching. So I don't know what the answer is here, but it's not You don't get to force a player to retire, like if there's actually a career threatening injury, and there's there's clearly chronic shit going on. But if it's a career threatening injury like what's happening with Lonzo Ball, we haven't necessarily had that with Kawhi Leonard yet, as serious of his as his injuries have been. Yeah, it's just an speaking of It's an unserious thing to say from a person whose job it is to be pretty un serious, or at least whose principal job is not to be serious in his opinions. The honest thing everybody's probably seen this by now is just the question from Eric name of the Athletic was this season of failure and like I'm I'm blown away by one. The perception that Jannis was like angry at him or like oh this reporter got you know, oh Yannis ethered him. He you know, it's like no, no, that was like a real and Sam Amock wrote about this a little bit today and kind of in response to the Cuban side of things, but that was a real like sincere before we get even to the content of what Yanna said or the fact that he had like can you imagine being in that position and having the I don't know what patience, just like goodheartedness and like and perspective and thoughtfulness to give that answer like at that time, like that's insane to me want too. That is not This was not a Yannie clapping back or like shutting down the reporter. This was like those two know each other, they have a real relationship built over years, and Janice was like a right use his name, looked him in the eye the whole time. Was just this was like an engaging like granted, like intense emotional from Yannie's side anyway, like conversation with a difficult question that was not only fair to ask, but like great question, great question, Like it's not meant to be incendiary, and if the goal of a good question is provoked an interesting response like mission accomplished a billion times over, because that Jannie is sound by to me, and to call it a sound bite is does it a huge disservice because it was just like it was such a thoughtful way to answer a question that you could have tossed off, and he has tossed off in the past, and guys in that position always talk generally toss it off. But I don't know, maybe so anyway to the content of it, Like that hit me in such a real way, and it was so like refreshing is a word that's been used, but so sincere and so interesting, and I think it's just because it felt like he meant it. And granted there's some self serving factor to it, because like he was asked if his team failed, and by many accounts and by many people's view of it, like they did, you lost to the eighth seed pretty handily. You performed really poorly. We can talk about like do we credit the heat or blame the bucks more later and why do we think about things that way. But I just thought the idea of no, no, no, like the success is in the work basically was like if you really had to distill it down, was like it just hit me in like a real place, because you know what, like we're all just out here trying, like we're in we're all doing our best, and if you're focused on the result, you're missing the value of the process. And like this whole all their whole time on this planet is all just about the process, Like how are you handling what you're tasked with doing, like right now, from moment to moment. And to have him put that kind of perspective on it in a position where nobody does that was just like, yeah, man, preach just like they just please put this like on a plaque somewhere and go tell your kids, like this is how sports is supposed to make you think, this is how you should approach life, like it just perfectly. And maybe you disagree, and I respect people that are like, no, no, no, this is a results oriented business. The point is to win, and you didn't win, therefore failure. I just the way that it resonated with me was like that's the way we ought to be thinking about not just a one versus eight upset, not just you know the fact that twenty nine teams don't win the championship every year, they don't all fail, but just like the whole way we go about like our day to day life and our year to year, like how do we measure success? I just like it was perfect. It rang one hundred percent true to me, and I wish that more people would have like that approach to it and be able to articulate it as well as Johannis could and his second effic language, like I couldn't be that concise and clear and thoughtful in English if you just listen to me blabber for like the last three minutes, proof I can't do it. Just amazing by him. I loved it. Favorite part of the playoffs. Sorry, Jimmy Butler. I agree with everything you said, with the caveat that. I also think Jannie was wrong because it's fine to view it that way. But this wasn't Eric name asking the question after you had just lost in the finals. You were the title favorite, and Johannis had the back injury that cost him two plus games. It's clear he wasn't right afterwards. Maybe you could take issue with how succinct the question was phrased, but again they have a working relationship. Jannis knows what Eric is referring to. In sports, it's very different than in these jobs that you and not what is our endgame by doing the jobs that we have basically put food on the table. Keepprove over our heads and Jannie's face very real adversity. I'm not this is not like diminishing that at all. In sports, there's more of a tangible endgame in the positions that we're in. It's more like it's not the words, not even abstract. There's not necessarily clear paths forward. There's not a clear next thing. Winning the title in the NBA as a professional basketball player, like that is the ultimate goal. Now they're only a handful of teams that are capable of winning it each year. The Bucks were one of them, and I think they're also reaching an inflection point. And I think this gets into, you know, we want to talk about the actual Clippers and Bucks off seasons a little bit. They are reaching an inflection point because Brook Lopez is a free agent, Chris Middleton as a player option, they are going to be hamstrung by these new CBA rules, I would imagine that they would be far enough above the apron to where they won't have their MINIMLI, they won't be able to make trades as easily. They don't have a ton of draft picks. So I think it was absolutely a fair question. And to say, no, do you think that if you don't want to use the word failure? Is the season disappointing? Is the end to your season? That is the season? Maybe is the entire season of failure? You know what, No, you finished with the best record in the league. We want the regular season to matter. Was your postseason of failure? Part of your charm, part of your appeal, was that you were supposed to be able to navigate either a limited, honest or just beat this Heat team with how they play in the regular season without him, Now Miami went supernova, like from the perimeter, which is just not something they were doing from three during the regular season. Ducan Robinson comes in, makes an impact. They're starting Kevin Love and shit Gabe vincent I aspire to have his confidence when he's looking off Jimmy Butler in crunch time and taking jumpers early in the shot lock but the postseason ending was a failure for this team. It's that doesn't make the Bucks like this Buck's ero with Jannisa failure. It doesn't mean like this organizational failure for the entire year. But there's a clear you know, comparing it too, can you as a sportswriter you didn't get a promotion like it doesn't there's not a clear next step in most people's dated like there's not as much upper mobility or defined goals. And so I thought that I thought he was entitled to feel how he feels, like you said. I thought it was incredibly well articulated and argued, And I don't necessarily think he missed the mark so much as I do not totally agree with Yeah, you know, that's a good that's a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way because just on its face, if we're critiquing, like the argument, he does sort of make like a false equivalence here, or just at least a poor comparison, because it isn't like there's a championship for beat writers. And if you don't get it and that's what you're going for and you should have, you maybe should have gotten it or among the favorites and you fell way short of it that you know, that's not like a real that's not a true one to one thing. I just think that if you look at it from the person so point taking, I think that's that's a fair way to parse it. And maybe maybe my issue with it is like if you if the question had been well, you wouldn't even ask this, like was it he was this season? He disappointment? Like of course, like there's no, he doesn't give that answer if if the question is was it a disappointment? Because he's one visibly disappointed, and two all of the other factors that you've mentioned and we've talked about like one verses eight, the way they went out, the way the bucks just failed and if there I said, it just came up short, and many instances like technically you honest's free throws all this other stuff. But I wonder if if what you're measuring, So if what you're measuring is did you meet the potential that many people thought you had, I guess you could say that's a failure. But I would argue then, like I guess to me, what this is really, I'm just this is I'm internalizing this a lot, I think as I think about it more to me, I do think the right way to operate in almost anything, and this is an extreme case that kind of stretches the bounds of this feeling is to focus on did you work as hard as you possibly could have? Like did you try? Did you make the did you give maximum focus, maximum effort? Did was your process as good as it could have been? And I think for Jana specifically, I think it's he's kind of unassailable in that regard because I think he's just all he's about the right things. He's obsessed as a worker, Like he just has limitations like the free throw thing ten of twenty three. If he makes fifteen of twenty three, which is still shitty for a professional bathball player, the Bucks just win that game and we're not having any of these conversations. Maybe they go on to win the series. Just there's certain limitations that he has, I think in terms of what he was capable of controlling throughout the year and throughout his career, Like he's just maxed it out, Like he's just done as much as you could do. And to me, that feels successful as opposed to calling it a failure. So yeah, I don't know, I do. You have made me think about it a little differently because the NBA is like a zero sum game. Somebody wins and everybody else loses. Only one person succeeds or one team succeeds technically. But I just again, I'm beating the same drum. I just love the I love the framing of it that way, it resonates in like a real way. There's Look, there's an authenticity to this discussion that we can't have about what stephen A said about And that's what the difference here is. And you know what, AI isn't going to replace the talking heads on TV as far as I know, Like I'm not, you know, like the most technologically salary person, But are we going to have like holograms on there? Like making mistakes? So the Bucks offseason, though, is going to be fascinating. Boodenholzer is already seems like he's on the hot seat. But Jake Fisher, yeah, who sports just came out and reported and so that wasn't really internally, I look, the Bucks made mistakes, and I don't I don't really mind the end of regulation, no timeout, Like, look at how like much time was left, Like I don't know what you were gonna do there. It's more the fact that one there are real issues to be taken. I don't want to belabor like what already happened, but like I don't know that who is available, Like are you that like do you want Nick Nurse with this roster? I don't think firing Boodenholzer is the answer. I think that's the move. And I'm not defending Budenholzer so as it feels like it would be more lateral if you're not going to figure out a way to make changes to the roster, and so do you go that route? And I just you know, I I honestly I wouldn't at this point, just because I don't know what the like who the candidates are that they would want to replace him. And I think the other thing here is there's material flaws with this roster that I don't think we're highlighted enough. It's just they have all these different wings. Jay Crowder, maybe you should have played more, but it's like it's Jay Crowder, it's Ajight eight. Joe Ingles, Chris Middleton was definitely not the same defensively, at least coming back from his injury, and you have Brook Lopez going into free agency, and I think he would have if I'm Oklhoma City, I'm like, what's it good to take to get you here for two years? We'll give you all the money to play next to Chatlngren. I don't think he leaves, but you can run it back and I guess still be fine. I just don't know how they make material changes to the roster. I think they could probably use again some extra like wing type, death depth, excuse me. And then I think they're gonna need like I don't even know what the answer is, Like I don't want to phrase it this way, but someone other than Drew Holliday, who's gonna get primary assignments against like the other team's best player, And that's not easy things to get. They can trade a twenty twenty nine first round pick, and then they have some salary matching tools to use. I just I don't know what, and I'm they could win the I don't next year is currently constructed. That wouldn't shock me because jannest is that great. Maybe he you know, plays better from mid ranger, shoots better from three free throws in the postseason next year is just healthier in the postseason. But I just don't know what the path forward is for this team, given the circumstances under which they lost, and then now the strictures within which they're working inside this new CBA. Yeah, I think a couple of things. That So the idea of firing Budenholzer simultaneously feels like the easy answer and the wrong answer. And that's just because, as you alluded to, there aren't there aren't good options. It's it's fixed the roster or change the coach, and neither of those. Uh, certainly, fixing the roster is just insanely complicated because they don't have the resources. They're just aren't. They're just don't. The Bucks don't have ways to go get the types of players that they need to really change the way they play, or at least increase the options they have to to give Budenholzer more options to tweak things or give different looks. It's just it's just not gonna You can't really do it. You have to bring Lopez back because you can't replace him. You have to probably just I don't know what you hope with Middleton. I get I think what you hope is that he opts out, you bring him back out a lower number for more years, and somebody doesn't just come in and beat you, you know, with a bigger offer, which seem already been linked to Houston by the way, by Jake Fisher, and they have if there's a team that's going to be like, oh, they they gave a lot of money to Chris Middleton, it's probably rock Houston's gonna mess somebody up, because then it does seem like there or maybe help somebody in the event that they just overpay Harden to leave the Sixers. But so, I don't there's no easy way to fix this, the Holiday thing. I'm glad you mentioned that because there was another sort of weird, incongruous set of arguments that have been being made about this, which is and I'm and like, I'm not You're not wrong because the results are what they are. You know, they really should have tried somebody other than Holiday on Jimmy Butler because really was not working, right, Like, I don't think you get to say that and then also spend the last ten years acknowledging that every player in the league is like this guy is as good as it gets defensively like and putting him on all defensive teams, no questions asked. I don't think there's a scenario where if you're Buttenholzer, for example, and that's one of the nits you want to pick, you should have tried somebody else, you know, for earlier or for longer stretches on Butler, Like, I just don't like, I just don't think that's a realistic thing to ask, because the alternative had he's let's let's you know what, Wes Matthews. You got him for the whole series, like everybody would have been like, this man is out of his mind. He has Drew Holiday on his team every year. The players all agree Drew Holidays the best defensive player, a certainly best defensive guard in the league. Like, that's not a realistic scenario, but but that is. So that's where we are, though, And that's emblematic of the Bucks kind of predicament going into the offseason is do you like, what change what changes there? What player is out there that you could realistically get that is gonna definitely improve your chances of a better result next year? To me, I totally agree with you the most. The best case for this team is they bring basically everyone back and hope Jannis improves from the foul line and makes a jumper once in a while and just they get better that way, because there's just not a guy or guys out there that they can get that's gonna change anything. It's just that has a better chance of changing something than staying the same. I like, I know it's a cop out, and I know I tend to skew towards like conservatism and building rosters and trades and other stuff, but like, find me, find me the find me the proof that there's a guy that they can go get that's gonna that they that's gonna change something. I don't see it. I don't even end look this, I don't even know if something like this works under like the salary capital, like because they have to basically take in dollar for dollar at this point, depending on how much Lopez and Middleton making it. And maybe look, maybe Middleton not making forty million, like if he's on the books for thirty like four and one twenty, like that could help get some flexibility, but like, you're not. Your best offer is Marjean Bouchan one first round pick, salary filler, like that's the that's the offer you go and dangle, and I don't know. I guess you could include swaps because twenty thirty picks will be opened up at this point, but that's your and well technically not because the seven year picks go away if you're over a certain amount, like you can't trade that one, so you might be limited to the one first round pick, bow Champ and salary. That's not getting you. And I don't even know if this is what they need, but like that's not getting you. OG's definitely not getting in Michael Bridges. I don't even know who the best player realistically that offer could get you. I don't. I don't mean that in like like like is that like the Hawks aren't gonna after they you know, some of the moment he had the playoffs. The Hawks aren't gonna just unload DeAndre Hunter for that. And so I'm I'm not at a loss. We know what they need. I just don't know how they go about doing it. And I also think, and this is a good segue into the Clippers because it's so fresh, I do think there's a tendency to oversensationalize how poorly off some of these teams are. And the Bucks there it's again they're so inflexible an asset light, but they still have Jannis drew Is. His shot making gets weird in the playoffs, but he hit like that corner step back and it just reminds you, like he's this absurd shotmaker. And even if he's not going to remain that way through you know, the most important sixteen games of the season, he'll help you navigate the regular season for sure. Middleton is just he's still really good on offense if he's gonna be able to stay healthy, and he'll have an entire off season. Now that ended earlier than or that began earlier than anyone expected. This team is still okay. But like you do start to look at the eight, like brook Lopez being thirty five is wild. You just have the best season of his career. So I don't know if you've anything to add on them. They might be able to make a smaller move and just be fine. Like if it's just do they get someone else who's it's either look again it's Wings or it's just someone who in theory is like, oh, you can play him like a Jay Crowder, but he doesn't hurt your offense. We don't necessarily know if that is Jay Crowder because he didn't play enough. They could make a level of that move or a level of that signing. Maybe they get lucky or smart or unearthed bargaining free agency. The Clippers, I don't know what they do, because how do you build. They're talking about bringing Russell Westbrook back. Tyler said he expects to be the coach of this roster. I don't fully buy that. By the way, the Clippers are the job I'm watching, something seems off there. He just gets married to these certain players, forgets about others. Something as creative as people are, as much as people celebrate the creativity of Thylan and I think he's a fantastic coach, I don't know if he's the best manager of talent at this point. Not Doc Rivers level, like I'm encouraging conflict in the locker room. But something just seems like, why is Robert coming to him collecting dust and rust at this point? So I'm watching that job, but other than making a coaching change, and I don't I don't think that bringing in Nick Nurse or bringing in Charles Lee or bringing in Sam Quinn or Kenny Atkinson is going to make this team materially better. What makes the materially better is is there a pivot that's realistic or an upgrade that's realistic, or do Kawai and PG just stay healthy enough when it matters most? And quite frankly, we're year this is year four of this experiment wrapped up. We know what the Clippers can be at full strength. The assumption cannot be that they will ever be at full strength anymore. We're just we're past it. Yeah, No, you can't assume that the Clippers are a really interesting foil for the Bucks because it's it's sort of like, in a way, the Bucks loss feels more significant because, I mean, yet, Janice did miss a bunch of time with the back injury, and Middleton, you know, fought through injury, and you know, it's actually pretty good I thought in the series relative to like maybe what expectations should have been, and so they were sort of more whole and they've all actually I think it also probably hurts the Bucks that they actually have won a title, and so there was that understanding that like that's the level now that we've seen you hit keep hitting it. The Clippers are for the fourth year in a row, and we I think I talk about this last time now that I think of it, they continue to be a team stuck in Well, if everyone's healthy, then we can just put them on the you know, shortlist of contenders with a giant asterisk next to them, which is to your point that they can't ever be healthy. That's just not something we get to have. I would say that they probably have more avenues to altering this roster just because they're going into the summer with like a bunch of expiring mid tier deals that they can move that and you still have the markets just better, Like I think that's just this worth x percent edge in whatever transaction you're talking about. Because you're in LA and players do seem to like tylu I think that's a factor. I don't know how players generally feel about Botenholzer, but if it's Milwaukee versus LA, sorry, LA just always wins, so that those I think they're in they're better position. But they also might just be drawing dead because unlike the Bucks, we haven't seen a version of this team that you know that you gay, Well, that's that's it. That's the peak version we've seen that play. It's just we haven't we haven't seen it yet and we can't expect it. So I think there are more options. But the floor is just Kawai and Paul George Jarre never healthy and this team's cap is a first round out, like just full stop, right, Like, So do you feel the same way. I mean, like it's not a floor ceiling argument necessarily, but I feel like the Bucks. I mean, the Bucks have slightly less maneuverability than the Clippers do that, which isn't to say the Clippers have a lot, but I just think comparatively, the Clippers have a little more. Yeah, I mean like they if they wanted to, and I would be an advocate of this, I think they have more salary matching fodder that certainly helps. And then just like the Bucks don't have a Terrence Man on their roster if they want to include as whatever. But what I struggle with I have such a poor feel for this team, and I feel like I just need to get better at admitting when I just don't have a great grasp of what they are because it was so stop and start this year, even with Kawai playing like a top five player for most of the season, and we're all the belaboring over, oh, they need a floor general in there, And is rust the answer? He, like russ outperformed my expectations. I don't know if he defends like that. If he's playing anyone other than Kevin Durant on the other team, that's who's to say. But it's like their defense was like god, and they didn't have Paul George. They were missing Kawhi Leonard. What is like the actual single biggest need because they could I think, look, their picks might be they could, well they can't. I say they could trade two first round picks now, but under the current rules they can't anymore. They can trade a first round pick, they have better contracts. It's just like, what are if you're casting your net because you're you're improving this team now via trade just because you can't even count on using your miniml and who knows who the hell that gets you? Are you targeting someone who offsets as a creator the time that you expect Kawai and PG to miss, or you maybe diversifying your front court rotation where if Myles Turniper comes available, do you actually have a competitive offer for Miles Turner, and oh, by the way, there are so few Miles Turners out there. I would argue, like, maybe like three guys that fit as a non star in that or maybe you consider him a star or whatever. You already have a Vita zoo Box on the roster, like, you don't need to necessarily, in theory, go upgrade your center spot. It's only you're not concerned about the defense surviving when there's only one or none of Kauai and Paul George on the floor. I don't even know. Yes, I could think of targets that would make all the sense in the world, but realistic targets for them with the assets they have. That's what I really struggle with. I think. Adding on to that is that, so say, you go, I think I would agree with you that what they've needed, what they needed all year was they need a point guard that could do something better than John Wall could do it and better than we certainly thought Russell Westbrook could do it. I don't I think it's a little scary that it feels like they kind of need Westbrook going forward. But so, but the idea is this, this applied to the Lakers when they got ironically when they traded for Russell Westbrook. He's an innings eader. He's gonna make it so that our big guns don't have to do all the work during the year. He'll preserve guys. The problem with that logic always was that when you got to the playoffs and play the games that mattered, those guys were gonna have to fill that role anyway. So you're gonna have to completely change how you play and marginalize this guy who is going to eat innings or whatever lighten the load for you. And so if you go out and get a point guard that is going to take the stress off of Kawai and George during the year, you're not going to keep that style in the playoff games that the Clippers want to win, because obviously the only way the Clippers win a title or advance farther than they have been advancing is for Kawhi Leonard to be god for a full several series and just he runs everything. And so this this game manager, this like innings eat or point guard that you have doesn't matter anymore or certainly matters way way, way way less. So it's like, are you trying to build a regular season roster. You're trying to build a postseason roster. If anything, if we've learned anything from these playoffs that have been upside down and backwards and just unpredictable in so many different ways, it's still that the playoffs are way different. Like you just you need a different theory of how you're going to play in the playoffs than you do in the regular season. That's just the heat are just like the I mean, we're gonna just like bronze them and put them in, you know, in a glass case somewhere as example one a of why this is the case. So like, yeah, I agree you So you could flip a couple of wings for for I don't know who's like, who are you looking for in the trade market, or like you're not gonna go sign DeAngelo Russell. You're not gonna there's just that's not gonna happen. So yeah, I mean that we're talking about move is maybe adding Bismac beyonbo and free am and I would love that move. I actually think he's really good offer. But it's that's like the ceiling on your free agency flexibility, and you would have to weigh that against Okay, that can't be the move. But on the flip side, who can we actually trade for? And so is it just a matter of maybe we catch lightning in a bottle and Paul George and Choir are just we're due for them to be help at the same time in the playoffs? Yeah, I just they're they're kind of stuck too, Like you like, what would they have to do that would make you say going into a playoff series next year? You know, I don't think Kauhi is going to do the majority of the shot creation for us, Like, there's just that's not gonna happen. So, I mean, they can tinker on the edges, but there's nothing. Do you know how you do that? You trade Kauai or you trade Paul George to bring in the guy that does that. And are they gonna do that? Do you think what are the percentage chances they trade even one of those guys? Is it like less than ten? Right? Yeah? Oh, I would say I just have it like it's not it's not zero, but you know, you know what, it's more likely they trade both than one. I would yeah, because you're at that point you're straddling like sort of a weird line at this point, so and I just don't know how you especially if you're interested in bringing back Russell Westbrook. I think you've then decided okay, between man, they do still have Bones Highland on this roster, like you don't necessarily like I don't think floor General Ship or Captaincy becomes your biggest priority, even though maybe that's an imperfect cast. I just don't like what team even want, Like, could you in theory, let's look at it this way, could you build something around Norman Powell to get CG. McCollum from New Orleans? Like who needs to send out I don't think New Orleans isn't sending out picks, so let me make that clear. But like Norm Powell's deal just because he is a reserved and he's dealt with his own injury and he's not a shot, he gets downhill and hits threes, which, by the way, New Orleans I think needs more than what CJ. McCollum brings, even though we have it because they have Ingram in theory, they have Zion. But anyway, like who needs to send out other stuff in that deal? I think it's la but like maybe, but I think the Pelicans might be pretty happy to get off that money, you know, like that that's a factor too, and that's someone that's I had never once thought of that trade before. But just my gut reaction is if you still if the Pelicans are another example of a team that's sort of hamstrung because you can't really do anything significant that will give you a better chance to win than the Zion at is healthy at the point and you surround him with shooters theory. So anyway, so if you add Powell to that and take McCollum out of it, because you don't need a quote unquote primary ball handler because it's going to be Zion, like that makes a lot of sense, especially with the money aspect of it. So like I think, maybe does New Orleans have to attach a pick to CJ. McCollum, Are we there is that? I was thinking among the lines of like Norm Powell Roco and maybe LA has to give up the just I guess McCollum doesn't provide. Now you're going to sacrifice rim pressure in Norm Powell for the shock creation of CJ. McCollum. But like, is it like now you're really veering far and though we're just we don't expect both Quad and Paul George to be available when it matters most I did not. I just I hadn't thought about that trade a lot, but I did just think of it, and I am very proud of myself for coming up with that in the fly. But I will say the other thing to wrap up on the Clippers. Do they just because in theory, his money is so big that if you match it dollar for dollar or you can get cheaper by trading one player from one player. Do you just guarantee if you really don't give a fuck and you know you're not gonna be able to spend it free, do you guarantee Eric Gordon's contract and trying to use that as like this massive I know you have others in Marcus Morris, but like just to open up the number of avenues that you have or no, you're just like, maybe we could get him back at the minimum. No, I think it's the preservation of the salary slot. Like way of thinking is persuasive to me a lot of the time. Like I just I think it sounds crazy. But if you're the Clippers and you don't care about money, I think you probably want that. You want a twenty million dollar player that you can trade. I think maybe that's still valuable to them. We got a couple of comments. You want to want to get us to those? Yeah, all right, So fk Retro pg to the Rockets for jaw and Green, I'd take it. And fk Retro also says obs more involved. So I mean, is there Paul George? Yeah, if I think the Rockets make that deal, if James Harden or maybe they're trade maybe another wing prayer they're training for Jalen Brown as well, or if they have another star coming. But the Clippers is just you have to want to rebuild at that point. And so it's like, if you're gonna trade Paul George, you might as well train Kawhi. That's why I can't. I could come up with Paul George. Actually did. It was in the mailbag. They're a fun destination. I'd love to see him on the Knicks. Would be hell of fun in Atlanta. I think still has a bunch of chips to play. I had New Orleans on that list. There are other teams that I found Miami, of course, but yeah, that's just I think we're done on the Clippers before we get into the playoff series that are to come. I didn't want to ask you if you have any overarching thoughts about the Cavaliers. And they fall to the Knicks in five games, everyone the discords on them turned pretty quickly, I would say, and Gaby Bickerstaff, I think rightfully so. Mike Savano on Twitter pointed this out, and he does a lot of good fantasy stuff, but he's great at covering the Calves, like he just got away from what was their most used line up during the regular season and one of their most effective with Isaaca Coro plus your four studs. And I think Bickerstaff deserves criticism for a lot of the rotations he ran with. Did he stick with Danny Green? It points too long for the way that they approached John Brunson defensively. But at the same time one I actually think the Ocoro hesitancy says more about his offensive viability than anything else we talked about on this podcast, how he was hitting threes in the regular season and maybe his injury had fucked things up leading in the postseason. It's different in the playoffs. It just is we saw the Knicks were just leaving him they didn't give a fuck. It made defending the Cavs offense even easier. And when Evan Mobile shooting like one of eighty outside the restricted area, and Dono Mitchell doesn't have a going, Darius Garland doesn't necessarily have a going, it makes it tougher. And so I don't I had Jamie Bickersteff I think second or third of my Coach of the Year ballot. I'm not saying he's inoculated against criticism. And as Mike Savanio did point out, there's value in making the decision quote unquote too soon than waiting too long Donovan. So there is a sense of urgency here. Dono Mitchell's two years left on his deal, You're not gonna have a relatively cheap core forever. At the same time, yes, they've played their best trade chips. Everyone's so fucking young, and like Dono Mitchell's gonna be twenty seven when next season starts, you're two of your three best players. Evan Mobley and Darius Garland have not celebrated their twenty fourth birthdays yet and won't before next season. Jared Allen is like twenty five, just turned twenty five himself, the move if they really wanted to make a trade, is like, can we trade Jared Allen for a wing? But as we saw, the Cavs have rebounding issues. Now they're gonna get worse. If you all of a sudden go to pivot to one big minutes with mobile, you have to figure out who's gonna be the four next to him blah blah blah blah, and the Jared Allen O Giana Nobi trade just no longer makes sense. I'm sorry to tell you I did think. I didn't propose this on the pod. This is Jared Allen as like a package for Paul George. Is that enough? But I don't think the Clippers want to change up their center rotation that much. And that does nothing for you if you don't think Kauai is going to be available. Yeah, that's I think. If I'm the Clippers, I don't want Alan and Zubots, So I guess I'm sending back Zubots just because I don't want to spend and so my whole thing with the calves, and I think it does it to say that they weren't a letdown does a disservice to how good they were this season and at but at the same time like it, so why I want to spotlight Mobile shooting twenty percent outside of the restricted area. The Knicks rebounded thirty eight point seven percent of their their own missus And we'll get to the Knicks in the second for anyone who's like thumbnail stalking right now. But like this trade for Mitchell wasn't made with just this season in mine. This team not only has time, but it also takes time to kind of balance out and figure out your roster in the aftermath of these seismic shakeups. And I would argue that the information Cleveland gleaned from this series, with its on its current personnel not JB. Bickerstaff, becomes super valuable heading into an off season where again they'll have the non taxpayers level exception and plenty of playing time at the three. And I don't know what Isaaca Coro plus minimal stuff can get you at this point, Like you, you are not completely I would argue the Bucks are more admit that's not really hot take. They just don't have as many cards to play as Cleveland though, And so I'm not down on Cleveland's future as maybe I should be after that playoff series, just because I don't think this year was found money. I think they were better than expected and like it's just gonna it takes a little time, Like it was one season you played all your best trade assets on this one guy, and now you have that just because Dono Mitchell struggled in this series against a nixt team defense that was incredibly like just incredible is the word, and too just like now you know, hey, oh wow, our spacing is like a big deal, like playing with the two bigs, And when Mobley's gonna be run hot and cold, it doesn't really have much of a perimeter game and we're not going to rely on as flour game as much. And by the way, the other pathway forward is like Evan Mobley just continues to figure it out on offense like we saw for much of the regular season. And so I'm just curious where you landed on just the circumstances under which they exited the playofs because it was five games. You had Calves in six, eyed calves in seven. So they were shockingly bad by our standard. Yeah, No, I I think the idea that I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that the Calves got. You know, you win. It's it's kind of an ultimate example of like you win or you learn that, like that old trope. You know. So the Cavs learned a lot. I think the counter to that is they learned a few things, or they at least got confirmation of a few things that they probably should have known earlier. Like we spent the whole year talking about the fifth starter situation, and they just don't have a small forward that tech that ticks enough boxes. And that was not the maybe not even the main factor, but it was up there in the reasons that they lost. I think one of the most Jason Lloyd wrote one of my favorite kind of post mortems that I've read in a while about the Calves. I don't know if you saw this, but it was one of those where very clearly it was written from like an emotional place, because it seemed to me that he like he was not. I don't know what the emotion was, but it wasn't just it had a little extra punch to it because it it the disappointment came through, and like the frustration came through, and the just the sincere reaction of this team just lost and I don't feel good about it came through, which doesn't detract from the points he made at all, because like argumentatively and you know, on the merits it was very good. But the thing I took away from that was a point he made about like how much better off are the Calves as a playoff team with Donovan Mitchell versus like over the next however many years versus LORI marking in and all those picks, like and I'm look, I think you can't. It's hard to argue that after the season Mitchell had, they're probably you know, we saw this version of the Calves pretty much with marking and on it, and they just weren't as good of a team two years ago now. But that was compelling to me because we're talking about, like, how do they address all these weaknesses, not to mention, how do we not get crushed on the boards. Maybe put a third seven footer out there. I don't know that like that might have been, that might have changed. Though. That says more to me about your front court than it does about your guard. Like it's nice garde rebounding and wings rebounding, but I think it's it was interesting. It made me think for a second. It made me think for a second, especially if you believe that Donovan Mitchell is going to end up in New York at his first opportunity. I don't know, I believe if you. I don't know if I believe it. He seemed genuinely a static to get traded to Cleveland and they were really good. And if you believe if you regret this trade now after watching this series, I would say, that's a bigger indictment on how you feel about the mobili Allen Front Court. They were just gobbled up by Mitchell Robinson. Okay, I want to get to that. So so that because I wanted to finish talking about this series before we look at more Nicks or however you wherever you want to take it. But I think this is a this is one of the series, so take the Bucks for the Bucks heat for example, But some many of the other series. We have this tendency to focus. I think, and you tell me if you disagree on I disagree, teammate. I was just gonna say, you're really a great podcaster and a good human being. But if you don't, I always it always seems to me like we fixate, like look how much we talked about the bucks. We fixate on like TMX lost the series versus Team HY won it, And I think it's just easier to point out like what went wrong than it is to praise what went right. Or maybe it's more interesting. I'm not sure, but in this series particularly, it seems like tax the reasons TMX lost are so closely related to the reasons Team HY won. And it's just the Calves could not handle the offensive boards they got destroyed inside. The Knicks were awesome at that, like Mitchell Robinson put on maybe one of the best offensive rebounding performances I can remember seeing. He dominated inside. The Calves are limited offensively. They just could not win in advantage situations when the Knicks forced the ball out of their guards hands, and particularly Evan Mobley had to make a decision in space with a third defender crashing in off the corner shooter most of the time because they don't Knicks didn't care if it was Isaac Korro or whoever. In your view, was this a cav Like did the Calves lose the series? Did the Knicks win this series? Are those two different things? And just in general, like what are your thoughts on like that way of thinking about a series? How we tend to focus on, Oh, you know, Janis was ten twenty three from the line versus like Jimmy Butler was unstoppable and the Heat had great strategy, Like you know what I mean. So take the Knicks calves thing first and then broaden it out if you want. The Knicks won this series. To me, they I have never seen Tom Thibodeau would just like this on the fly since I started watching basketball and knew that Tom Thibodeau existed notoriously inflexible, and you talk about takes that age so poorly. I still stand by what I wrote in the moment. For me calling for Tom Tiboeau to get fired just absolutely wild. So I do think it's more of the Knicks winning this series because they exposed flaws that we kind of knew about with Cleveland, but we understand now they're gonna be because look part of it, let's focus the rebounding. He's always been weird by the way. That's like even during the one big minutes. That's something that made the Kevin Love DECI isn't curious. I think they did a massilid because he wanted out, wanted to go somewhere where apparently he's going to start games. But that's something that he could have helped with. But it was also still they weren't using him a ton and it was still an issue then there. But like I'm using a Coro as an example, there was an expectation and maybe we're not talking about this if Dean Wade is super healthy, but it is. I love Dean Wade, but he's Dean Wade, like he's Dean Wade and can't break for you, right, And so the thought was, look, Isaaco Coro's defense and he's now he's hitting these threes and we know what he can do as a cutter, Like that's gonna hold up. Why wouldn't that hold up in the look at this sample size. The playoffs are different, the spacing is different, the defenses are different. And look the I said this about Herb Jones on the Mailbag pod, your ability as if you trust them as a driver, as a cutter, that means roughly jack shit when you don't have this basing to capitalize on it, which the Cavs just right now do not, and it makes it easier for teams to go after Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland, especially if you have non threats elsewhere, or if there's not other guys who can make decisions and create with the ball in their hand, like with the way that they're set up now, is if Evan Mobley's not going to be your third advantage creator, you need a third advantage creator, right, And so that's why I'm more concerned about, well, how do they like you could get Like they could put Luke Kennard in that three spot if they were able to get him. That's not going to fix all of their issues either, And so I think you really need to take a look at it's Mobley just hits, and maybe he does. Might also be unrealistic to expect him to anchor these elite rebounding units given how much time he spends defensively away from the basket, which then that's the trickle down eff of the two guards you have what's happening at the three spot. But I still think that and I think this would probably be to finally get to the Knicks. Like Heat series, this was this series was more I don't know how you feel, it was more about the Knicks to me than it was the Calves. I don't know how I feel. That's why it's I wanted to talk about it. I think it's everything is so connected. I think ultimately you have to give the Knicks credit for at the very least capitalizing on the opposing team's weakness is better than the reverse, because you know, we look, we both picked the Calves, so clearly we thought the Knicks had some weaknesses, and we thought one of the main ones was Julius Randall, and that just turned out to not matter almost at all. So I guess I think I probably do have to lean that the Knicks did win it as opposed to the Calves losing it. But like, if anything, this gives me less certainty about the next series between the Knicks and Heat than I am comfortable having, because I'm not sure if the Knicks just really exposed a team with deep, deep flaws better than other teams did certainly during the year, But who's to say that another team. I mean, not everybody has Mitchell Robinson, but like, there are scenarios where you could imagine a lot of teams just making the Calves look this bad in a playoff series. I think we don't know. That's like you can't disprove that because we're never going to know for sure. But it makes me so much more interested in in heat Knicks because there's it's a different setup, it's such a different type of opponent that, you know, I think I will feel more comfortable answering the question you asked me after heat Knicks than I do now, because that'll give us a better indication of are the are the Knicks just were they just like poison for the calves? And did they just have this series figured out and just against you know, the field or against a different type of team they can't do the same stuff, though, I don't know. I think I think that's gonna be really telling going forward. But so we should talk about that series, I think. He I mean heat Knicks like this is about just on paper, really exciting, Like I don't have a dog in the fight, but I do have all the same memories everyone else does of all these you know, just really incredible battles over the years between these two teams. What is your initial assessment of heat Knicks, Like what are the pivot points? Give me? Like the two things that are most interesting to you or you think are going to be most significant in the series. I'm gonna give you three because this one's a cop apple. What's the state of Julius Randall's ankle? He reinjures it and they haven't They don't know if he's gonna play yet on Sunday. I would say to just to cut you off real fast. So you're gonna tell me that that's a blessing into Gosh or the Knicks, aren't you? No, No, I'm gonna say, I think I think Randall we thought this incorrectly against the Calves. I think he matters a ton against the Heat because of the like these tiny lineups that the Heat are going to play, where Randall is gonna probably get a lot of reps against the Caleb Martins of the world, who I just don't think are big enough to stop him. So continue agree with you, Randall matters a ton this time, Yes and so, And that's just obvious because this also could be a Randall series if the Heat are gonna try and play Kevin Love a bunch like I know that pulls Julius Randall out, Like Kevin Love is not gonna beat Julius Randall off. The dribble and so it gives It's almost like I would rather if I'm the Knicks and I Relius Randall, I would rather Kevin Love being on the floor than Caleb Martin. Would you agree with that when you're looking at the order their best line up? Or would you prefer yeah, because you can quote unquote hide him on Love a little better, or just you know, you hang out close to him and just don't worry about it. If Martin's gonna be running off screens and playing and doing some ball handling and stuff, I think that exposes Randall more defensively. Agree with that. Yeah, And this is this is the guiding question. I can't remember who asked it in the mailbag that I didn't get to. That's why you should join our discord. I make discord questions a priority. Was asked on Twitter. I want to know if the Knicks are for real? Are they title contenders? And they beat the Calves, which I kind of in theory feel like should be a better measuring stick than the Heat. But that's also my overarching question here. One of my overarching questions is the Knicks killed it getting out in transition against the Calves. The Heat are going to do a better job at limiting that. I would think the Heat are also shooting. I had this number pulled up, so let me find it to let him exactly. They have an effective field goal percentage on contested jumpers, so with a defender between two and four feet, not just tightly contested, but the contest, semi contests, whatever you want to call it, sixty five point two. They hit fifty four point five percent of their contested threes against the Bucks. Those numbers are just They were at forty point one percent affective field goal rate on those same looks during the regular season, and there are three specifically twenty seven point four percent shooting on contested threes. Are they gonna stay hot from the We saw them hit mid rangers. That's like during the regular season they're at like forty seven percent. They're forty nine percent for the playoffs. That's fine. They are shooting like gangbusters from beyond the arc. The Knicks are sub thirty percent beyond the arc. Volumes not too high on the many anyway, I do expect I don't have access to this data. We should really ask our bosses to get us access to this data. By the way, I've thought about a lot. I don't know how much like the Heat are gonna play more zone than the cad is it. I don't know if the Cavs, like so the Knicks are gonna have to up their three point volume. I'm just does the perimeter shooting for either of these teams sort of normalize? I guess is my bigger group. Because Miami was on fire at first. Much as the Bucks might have done wrong, they were contesting a lot of the heath perimeter shots. Miami was just making them from three for the series from Miami forty five, so just like and like shooting fifty four percent on contested threes, and the fact that Jimmy Butler's three point shot is only a sixteen game shot. We talk about eighty two game players howlers three pointers a sixteen game shot attempt. I'm just curious as to whether any of the shooting is going to normalize for these teams. And then my final thing would be, and you, I know you have thoughts on Mitchell Robinson, what does sort of the lineup macinations look like in this series? They will change if Julius Randall isn't healthy. But Mitch Robinson feasted on the offensive class against the Calves, the Knicks had like an offensive rebounding rate of nearly fifty when he was on the floor in that series. They're like when him and Josh Hart were on the floor, their offensive rebounding rate the Knicks was like forty seven something. Now, the heat could be exploited there because bam Adebayo is not huge and if you play Kayleb Martin, is your day fat? Like if it's Kayla Martin, Jimmy Butler, you know, and then flesh out Kyle Awry, Gabe Vincent. That's and we should mention the other obvious, like they don't have Tyler Hero or Vicar Ladipo, who, in theory as good as Miami has been. Tyler Hero specifically is important to both their half court offense and they're shooting. It just didn't appear that way against Milwaukee. I think that goes without saying, though, but the Knicks could really and so I think it's the heat. And that's my question here is who would just to who more? I think it's the heat to the Knicks to where I would almost bet that this is more of a Kevin Love series to start than I would think because of how concerned they are about Mitchell Robinson just cleaning up the offensive class and if you also have to kind of juxtapose that against how good the Knicks were in transition during this series, which was a big part of it. And I know I'm throwing all these factors out. RJ. Barrett final three games, sixty five percent shooting on drives. That's just that's his decision making. There got so much better if he's gonna play like that. Which is that another reason to why if you're the heat like you do, kind of lean on zone at points because do you trust RJ. Barrett to bust that up? I don't in transition like it's different, but do you trust them to bust that up in the half court? I don't know. So there are so this series is fascinating to me. It would be my most compelling second round series if Nuggets Suns didn't exist. But like those are just as I'm spewing thoughts here, I didn't share too much about Mitchell Robinson because I know you have like real takes about Mitchell Robinson. I'm just there's so much. But I think, ultimately to wrap this up as I think it ends up being the heat that adjust more to the Knicks face, not only on personnel, but what we just saw the Knicks do against the Cavaliers. Yeah, I think what's my overarching thought. I think Jimmy Butler. It's probably a good question. But right, well, yeah, if Jimmy Butler is gonna do this, it doesn't matter what anybody else does, Like right, that's just I mean, he's the best player in the playoffs full stop, by like, I mean, Devin Booker is second, I guess so far. But there's just nobody else even remotely close to that. So that's that's where the analysis, the quote unquote analysis of this series starts, which is, if Jimmy Butler is the best player on planet Earth, nothing else really matters even close to as much. Let's see, I'm not going to rule it out, Like why would you rule it out? I just I don't. He did this against the Bucks team that in theory, should have been able to stop him from doing what he did. So anyway, Butler is just like just too good to even discuss as a factor because it's mine area. If he's great, the heat are terrifying. If he's not, then the heat are forty four and thirty eight, and they are offense sucks like it did all season. So I think I think it's probably the heat that adjust I do think it. I kind of trust them to make some adjustments because they showed it against the Bucks fairly often. So I'll just start with this because you have to. I have to write it down when you were talking about it, because I was going to slip out of my brain. I think it was all over the place. I would apologize, I'm a sorry, No you're not well. There's a lot to talk about and unpack for this series. So I think one interesting thing to me is can out of bio pull Mitchell Robinson away from the basket like he did with Brook Lopez by being the primary ball handler during key stretches of the Bucks series and especially late in Game five, because Robinson and Lopez kind of serve similar purposes, like they're just gonna deter penetration and let you shoot pull ups and or you know, Robinson probably gets out to bother is capable of bothering pull ups more than Lopez. I should have looked up the you know, inside ten feet shooting defensive field goals against, but so that's something to look at for me. The other the thing that the overarching thing that's difficult is the Knicks were an offense first team during the season, and they beat the Calves with defense and second chance points like that's just that's what it was. So I don't know what this Knicks team is anymore because they've been too They've succeeded in two totally different ways, I think. So to talk about the offensive rebounds, the Heat were fourth in opponent offensive rebound rate allowed. So the Heat controlled the defensive boards during the season way better than the Calves did despite being way smaller, because on paper, it's like, well, Jared Allen Evan Mobley that, well, they should have a way better chance of controlling the defensive glass than the Heat do. Because the Heat play Autobio who's undersized as a five and a lot. They spend a ton of time with four guards, and not just four guards, but like Vincent, Lowry and Bruce are among that group, and those guys are all basically point guard size, which I mean Struce, I guess is like a shooting guard size and he plays a little bigger sometimes, But I mean the Heat are tiny. They're a tiny team, so they'll have to play zone, which, by the way, playing zone really makes it difficult to box out. So if you're looking for a way in for the Knicks and this one, good luck with the Heat one matching up size wise, and two trying to keep Mitchell Robinson off the glass if you are zoned up, because that's Has there ever been a box in one defense tried where the one is just on the other team's center face guarding him so he can't Is that what we're going to see in this series? Because it might be what you have to go to. So yeah, I don't know. I'm scattered too. I do think the Heat should hold up better on the boards. I do think the fact that they have the best player in the playoffs so far is going to force the Knicks to, you know, figure it out defensively. I think Randall gives the Knicks an interesting edge that you know, he didn't they didn't need in the first round. But yeah, man, just because we've been teasing it all along, like, is Mitchell Robinson just gonna win series? Basically, like, not by himself, but be as big a factor as almost anybody other than Butler and Booker in these playoffs, like is because I mean, his offensive rebounding was probably the main storyline of the first round series against the Calves, and it was followed closely by the way he dominated defensively, just not allowing on you know, mobile going downhill four on three. Sorry, you can't. You're not gonna finish. You just aren't. So you're gonna have to do the thing you're not good at, which is try to find an open teammate. Like he was so impactful on both ends. I just I can he be Can he do eighty percent of that against the Heat? And if he can, then maybe the Knicks just win this one in five two. I don't know. The other thing is the shooting. The Heat's shooting, like they can't shoot this way, They just can't. They an all year. They got better, you know, the last dozen or twenty games or whatever it was, but this offense was terrible. They damn near didn't make the playoffs at all because they turned in just an absolute dud in the first play game and lost because they couldn't score against a bad Atlanta defense. So like this, we may be doing a lot of hemming and hawing, and the Heat just turned back into the regular season versions of themselves and this is not interesting. So we gotta comment you want, we got a few go ahead. I've been talking for long enough. It's it's over arch young, what arching? Den that there's no hard h in there? Keep up the hull, go bull snores, great works. Thank you, Jamie O'Grady. I missed the Cauldron. I wrote for the Cauldron a couple of times way back when. So it's over arching. Is that what we're saying. I'm gonna say over arching two. I don't know if that's grammatically correct, but I'll go. I'll go either way on that. The one thing I had to add about Michael Robinson, could you do you know what they have shot against him at the rim in that first round series are six point two percent? Dan, did I just stun you with a stat? Thirty one point eight percent? Damn it? I had inside six feet sorry, even worse than the rim. Fifty seven players are contesting at least three shots at the rim in the playoffs thirty one point eight percent, and not surprisingly leads that entire field, and it's not even close for second place. Royce O'Neill's in second place, by the way, he only playing four games, but whatever, so he was fantastic. I do think, O, Jamie, we agree, I was. I agree. It is ching, it's not arking. I'm with you. So it's over arching. That's what we're settling. Arches over everything. Damn, like everything is overneath the arch over arching. I talked too fast to pronounce things correctly, So I think the other thing, I think this is an a manual quickly series in part because of how small the heat skew, and I just feel like he'll not that he'll bounce back, but like if you're gonna need to bust up his own, he becomes super important to that. I'm also very curious to see I know Grimes is dealing with the shoulder injury. If I had to bet on who spends more time on Jimmy Butler, between Grimes and Heart or Barrett, I think if I had to rank it, I think it's Grimes Barrett Heart because of just how good Heart does stuff for the team, and also maybe he's not starting at that point. If it's Grimes who's starting, it might inherently limit his reps against Jimmy. I'm not sure how you feel there. And then I'm also wondering Jimmy Butler spent this. If Kevin Love is starting, it takes the guest work out of the equation. But if if it's Kayleb Martin is your primary, like fifth or whatever, Butler spent almost an even amount of time on Jalen Jalen Jalen Brunson, Yeah, and Julius Randall during the regular season. I'm just wondering if you can ask him my overarching in career here, can you ask Jimmy Butler gonna do that in the postseason when he's doing this, And look, we know Gabe Vincent's gonna get Gabe Vincent shots up at this point. But unless Kyle Lowry has to pull up going or you're gonna have and we saw a bam run some point guard against the Bucks Layton games, you're gonna maybe need to lean on that a little bit more heavily if you need Jimmy, because Jail Bronson's legit in the sense that I thought there were sometimes he deviated from his usual script against Cleveland and was kind of like, I don't follow aggressive, whereas like he just wasn't making the wasn't capitalizing on the attention that the cows were throwing his way, but nine point eight times out of ten, he's going to do that, and so like you almost if you throw a butler around him, it's a solution where okay, well we don't have to trap or blitz him as much. But then it's oh fuck, Like now we're reliant on everyone else to make decisions and Jimmy Butler is gonna be I know it's Jimmy Butler, but like, the guy has an endurance tank and I can't imagine it's just all this. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's Those are my last overarching thoughts on this series. I wonder if the heat will double Brunson a little more and just see if the other Knicks players can facilitate. I wonder if that's an adjustment. I wonder if the heat will play or if the if the Knicks on the other side will play some zone or some weird boxing one stuff on Butler and just hope somebody else can try to score against this version of Miami's offense. I don't know, I don't know what the version is. Is it gonna be the team that shoots because you can't do it? If they're gonna shoot forty five percent from three, that's for damn sure. Yeah, I don't know. I think the Butler well, you would agree that just I'm pinging all over the place, But that's this series for no central focus, it's just talking about the Brunson matchup. You would agree that you sort of have to put size on Brunson, right, otherwise his midpost game is just it's too difficult to stop. Like you have to put a bigger guy if you're gonna single cover him. So the problem with the Heat is they like Jimmy Butler is the bigger guy because otherwise it's maybe Lowry is sturdy enough to just knock him off his spots, but that feels like a big ask. So like you can't put Gay Vincent on Brunson, So you either I think if i'm if if I'm trying to draw up a way for the Heat to succeed defensively, which I don't even know if that's the most important like side of the floor for the series. You gotta either get the ball out of Brunson's hands and make other Nicks try to chew moving the ball or finding shooters or attacking, or you just have to put Jimmy Butler on Brunson because I think he's gonna eat up whatever smaller guys you try to put on him if he gets into that midpost and low post area, because I just if, I mean, he's already so good at scoring against guys that are his size or a little bigger. If you put if it's Struce, if it's Vincent, if it's I mean, if heroes not in this series, But if you'd had hero switched on to him, that would have just been a feast of like pivots and you know, fade away right shoulder stuff or left shoulder stuff, I guess for him. So yeah, maybe Butler has to and you know what, I bet he wants to. I bet but relishing the idea of just playing forty five minutes and having to do everything on both ends. Oh wow, is he on a minute restriction? Yeah? If I were the heat so this is probably the wrong decision. I actually would not have Butler on Brunson. I would skew towards the Kla Martin lineups or try it with Kyle Lowry. I would send help and then I would trust or not trust. I would task Jimmy Butler with can he take away their second best decision maker, whether it's Julius Randall, RJ. Barrett, And then does that help you pitch in on the offensive like well on the defensive glass so like, let's happen in because he's so strong, has some size to help, like gang rebound against Mitchell Robinson. That's how I would at least start it. I think that probably means that I'm wrong because I came. I'm the one who thinks that. But that's just I don't I'm so fascinated with this series. What's your prediction? Oh geez, I wasn't ready for this. I'm gonna go do you want me to get mine first? Give yours first? Because I was gonna answer with my heart, but I want to think about it a little more. I'm not sure. This is probably mostly my heart speaking. I'm gonna go Nixon five. No, I'm just Nixon seven. I think that's I think they have more cards to play on the offensive end of the floor. Ultimately, as on fire as the heat have been, and again the fact that Robinson contributed last series, Max Drews gave Vincent it matters, but it's just I trust the Knicks even if they have to skew smaller, even if Julius Randall's gonna make that's the big one. If you tell me that Julius Randall's at like sixty percent are gonna miss a couple of games, it changes the complexion of this series for me because I oultimately don't trust RJ. Barrett to be your second best on ball decision maker. Oh No, I just don't. And that would make it into manuel quickly series, even more than I think it already is. But I'm going given the current state affairs, I'm going NIX and seven. I'm gonna go Heat in seven because I can't leave that last series and just decide that Jimmy Butler is gonna be denied like I just can't. I can't do it. And we've talked about all the different nuances and angles, but like at the end of it, I don't know what the fix is from the Knicks perspective for Butler, And maybe it's just Mitchell Robinson making sure they get two shots for every one that the Heat do, which is a real thing. And if that happens again, then man, are we gonna have to reevaluate our perception of what like a paint bound center is worth going forward. But I hope, I hope to god we get seven games either way. But I just I can't get the Heat out of my mind. Like, well, let me let me ask you real quick. The Heat faced a better team in the first round, right, Like, that's not a controversial stance, even with Joannis missing time. Yes, so yeah, they did. They did. That's that's a factor for me too. Yeah, but did you look at what they shot? Like, I know, I know, if they come out and they average ninety six points a game and shoot thirty two percent from three, this will just be over in a hurry. From the Knicks perspective of our team that didn't really look to get out and run during the regular season, I think it was like fourteen and a half percent of their possessions were in transition. They ratcheted up almost nineteen percent. I get the calves. That's gonna be a big factor is who can change the pace of play a little bit. I think the Knicks's ability to vary up the cadence last series and the Heat played a different and cadence then half courted and transition. Then Cleveland did but that's going to be this I why did I not call this my most fascinating series? But it's Nixon seven. Do you want to go Celtics sixers? Do you want to talk about Celtics sixers? Yeah, we could do that a little bit. Do you think we learn anything about the Sixers in the first round other than Joel Embe can't stay healthy? I just my whole thing is, this is a series where I think you read it. I saw people like bringing up the playoff track record between or Celtics over the last three years. I don't care what it was when Ben Simmons was I'm sorry, I can't bring myself to care what it was when Ben Simmons was on the team. I do think it's fair to look at the right understand serie. I understand it's all that matters. Did Joel embets health is just the biggest over arching question in this well also James Harden's health. He's dealing with Achilles stuff, and if he's gonna shoot poorly from two or not get to the foul line, that warps what Philly's gonna do. I'm aside from that, and I'm just there's nothing to add to the Joel and beat injury. They don't know if he's gonna be ready. I would hazard that they try and play him, But if he's going to be not even close to ninety percent or whatever it is, it's just Philly's fucked. Like if they're they're fucked, right, Yeah, I think I think my takeaway from the first round is I didn't really learn anything about the Sixers because the Nets played a really weird you know, and I think the correct defense against him, which is just two guys on him all the time, get it out of his hands and tyres Maxie. If you're gonna make half your threes in the series, which he did, the Sixers are gonna win. So the Celtics won't be quite as you know, I won't have to sell out quite as ridiculously to handle and Bead, although you're gonna just devote all your attention to him anyway, the strategy won't change it that much. It just won't be quite as quite as extreme. But I also don't think we learned a lot about Boston because the good version of them, you know, got up two oho and then the bad version of them, the offense stagnated and he let a not very good Hawks team turn it into a series sort of. I don't. I don't think anyone really believe the Hawks are gonna win in that series. But I was not so hard for Game seven. You have no idea, well, right, and that was on the table. I mean, it was what it was a tie game until Jalen Brown hit you know, the Celtics hit three threes in a row very late in that game last night to you know, put it away. So it was in doubt for forty six minutes or whatever it was of Game six. So and so, having not learned anything about either of these teams, I go back to like what I would have thought at the outset of the playoffs, which is that Boston is just a little bit better. It can play different ways. It's not as it's I mean, the mbid thing. We can't just not act like it's you know, it's the biggest angle of maybe any second round playoff series is just how healthy is he and can he be dominant? And if healthy, can he finally put together like a really great playoff series against a great team, and you know, beyond the first round like that, we haven't really seen that or certainly we've never seen him string together multiples of those. So I go Celtics just because I think they were the better team during the year. They actually have shown us they can make a finals, they can play a lot more different styles, They're deeper, their personnel allows them to adjust, you know, after you know plan A doesn't work in game one hypothetically, whereas the Sixers kind of just it's embed and then depending on what the Celtics do to defend him, either he goes for huge numbers, or you're relying on James Harden to create shots for himself, which he's not great at anymore, or someone like Maxi to take over and be clearly the team's second best player. I don't know if I believe that can happen again. So I'm not sure I'm ready to make a pick yet, unless unless you have one in hand. But I feel better about the Celtics, just even independent of the EMBID injury, which changes everything. I feel better about Boston the two if we've learned anything about the Sixers or Inmide it was more of a reinforcement that he is just not the same player. If you're going to double him, he will make better even there are games where he was kind of limited on a shot opportunity. He's just making the right reads and if you trust your teammates to make shots out of that, that's so that does vote well for the Sixers if he's relatively healthy. I what I find fascinating is the we didn't see it enough in the regular season because RW three was hurt, but like some of the smaller lineups for Boston, gave Philly a lot of trouble. Their current starting lineup played twice against the Sixers and had like a plus thirty seven point five net rating. I think the natural inclination if everyone's healthy is no, you give Horford and Bat assignment and you have RW three on the court to like muck up everything else around the basket and pitch in there. I'm just curious as to whether they go that route because of one, just how fucking good Derek White is at this point, and maybe maybe at that point you're pulling Mark is smart, but I do think you might need him. He's better at navigating tighter spaces within the pick and roll on ball. I'm just curious to see if there's like a tug of war there. I also want to see like I feel like tires Maxie. You mentioned if he's hitting his threes, like they might need him to create stuff because of just Boston's defensive solutions where it's they'll throw bodies or a body at Indiade, and then they still have Marcus Smart or Derek White or Jalen Brown to go after James Harden. And then if he's on Harden, Max, He's gonna match up with Derek White or Smart would probably be like, missy is Jalen Brown gonna get that aside? I would think it's smart. Or if they stick with their current starting line up, it would be smarter. Derek White's gonna line line up against him most of the time, And so then all was su toetric with them, like oh shit, like we need to bias Harris to do things offensively here. I think the Sixers, if in Bead's healthy, you're gonna have to shorten their rotation even more because Nan can't play against this team. I just don't think he can. And Bryant Toporrek wrote about this for Forbes did a great job of breaking down the whole series, but that was like one of the bigger pivot points too, So those are just kind of my stray thoughts, and I do wonder how the Sixers are gonna then, in turn, match up with Boston offensively. I don't think you know Philly's gonna play drop because it's indiade and I don't you know, is that the worst thing in the world. Given Boston is for the most part accurate on a jumpers, but there's very ability. And whether do you bet on surviving the waves or do you try and be more aggressive, Let's bring it beat up more and try and disrupt more consistently. I might actually prefer the former, which is I think weird and maybe inaccurate, because I skewed towards being more aggressive in these situations, and I'm just arguing in favor of conservatism. I think I'm wondering if I'm being influenced by I don't know what Joel embids need is like right now. It's like I don't want to task him with having to be more aggressive and coming up high and switching and all that. Is there a better person for Robert Williams to hang out on and destroy the Sixers offense than PJ. Tucker? Like Tucker is three for fifteen against the nets from deep as not. You know, is someone that I think if you're the Celtics, you say, PJ. Tucker, if you would like to take a if you want to do the Grant Williams thing and shoot seventeen threes in a game like he did in the last postseason. I forget which game that was, have at it. You can shoot his many. I think we want. The other thing is Williams. It's not like PJ. Tucker's. Peter Tucker is just like cemented in the corners. So Williams is you know, and if he's moving anywhere, he's not moving fast. So Williams as the rover could just not have a more choice matchup, I think because even if he over extends or he's too aggressive coming in to clean up messes like who cares. The Celtics would love for Tucker to take for his usage rate to be above like one of the lowest usage players of all time. It would love it for him to, you know, get up to like fifteen percent usage even just like take as many shots as you want, because that means and Bead's not taking shots. It means nobody's drawn fouls. It means the Sixers are doing maybe the last thing they want to do on an offensive possession. So I just I think if WILLI and then but you know what we talked we talk about in beads health being a factor. Are we ever sure Robert Williams is going to be healthy for multiple games in a row like that? That's I don't know which game it was, but the Celtics brought in Blake Griffin and the game wasn't decided, and I was like, is our W three okay? And he ended up playing after that, but I was just like, uh, it's always your first thought. Yeah, I think I think it's an you're talking about the mbiad injury specifically with respect to He's just you know, he's not gonna be up to the level of any screens, and that's going to increase the It's gonna make the Celtics into a are you making your threes or not? Are you making your pull up jumpers or not? Offense. I think at least that means the Celtics will get a clean look more often than not if they just you know, attack, you know, pull up behind the arc or take you know, step in and take jumpers. Whereas I think it's gonna be easier for the Celtics to make it so the Sixers, if they get clean looks, it'll be by guys they probably would prefer not be shooting them, or you know, it wouldn't be their first, second, third choice. So yeah, do you want to predict this one? You got any more on on? I just I feel like we saw so much of them during the regular season that is very clear, or that we understand how they're gonna play each other. My biggest question is just sort of like lineups, does Boston a skew towards in this one? And then there's the the injuries make this I just rip very quickly. More concerned about Joel Embiid's knee or James Harden. The James Harden experience right now. I mean, I think if you get to a point in this series where it really matters whether James Harden is gonna choke or not, the Sixers have sort of already lost because that means that Embid. So I've way more concerned about embiads knee. That's priority one for sure. I have. I want to go Celtics in five. I'm gonna give the Sixers too. I just Joell Embie's knee is just making me wildly uneasy at this point. And I think the Celtics kind of understand. I mean, I guess I say they understand, but they kind of. They fucked around in Game six, have a fucking around in Game five against the Hawks, and that's also why I'm gonna give the Sixers another two games. But they're the deeper team. They do have more optionality on the roster, and I just I ultimately don't think even if a bead is cooking and look he scored, didn't he drop fifty two and his team or whatever, even if he's destroying them, they have so many answers for everybody else on Phillies roster that even if James Horne's playing well, it's just they can handle it. And so I'm going Celtics in six. I hope this series goes seven, though, because fans like in the buildings, really seem to get up for this matchup, and I could just the trash talking element here between Smart and Embiid could just be generational. And so I'm rooting for seven games. I'm gonna go Celtics and six also, if I mean there is a chance that this is four or five. Though, just if Embiid isn't, isn't like an an MVP caliber guy because I don't. I don't think the Sixers have enough sort of fallback options that you can count on winning you more than a game. So yeah, not not controversial. If the best player on the lower seed is not healthy, the higher seed's gonna win pretty easily. Sons versus Nuggets or Nuggets first Sons one v. Four. Mister Grant Hughes, what are is your biggest over arching question for this series? I think it's gotta be because it's it was one of the most important, you know unknowns of the whole playoffs is is how's Denver gonna defend? Is this a series that is going to challenge the Nuggets and Yokis in space? Does it matter that the Suns don't even really care about getting to the rim unless they absolutely need to, because they'll just pull up and make you know, three out of four mid range shots. I don't. I guess you could argue that the way the Suns like to play offense makes it less likely that the Nuggets issues are going to be exposed defensively, But yeah, that's The first factor is just what what does Denver's coverage initially look like against you know, ball screens up top involving Yokich do the Suns if it's say it's Chris Paul for example, and eton like, is Chris Paul gonna be able? Does he? What kind of shots does Chris Paul want to get out of that those sets? And what kinds of shots are the Nuggets willing to concede. That's like, that's where the series starts for me, and then everything kind of kind of spirals outward from there. Do you have something different than Nuggets defense? Yeah, My actual biggest question was the Sun's defense. They just literally let the Clippers cook when the Clippers didn't have their two best players for most of the series, and so there's some concerns level there. And then rotation is so it's not shallow because I really like Beyonbo and I feel like this is more of a Joshua Kogi series when you're looking at trying to defend Jamal Murray versus Craig. Might be better if you have the bigger wing creators like the Clippers had at one point in that series. But let's talk about the Nuggets defense because I think that that's probably the like that's gonna be. I'm assuming it's the more widely talked about aspect I can't bring myself. And I was listening to the Dunker Spot talk about the Nuggets defending the Suns. I'm starting to think, just because Nikaias and Steve Jones are so much smarter than I have a great pulse, I'm just like, what teams will be concerned about. I guess I'm under concerned about the Chris Paul matchup because I feel like Jamal Murray can absolutely handle him at this point. And it's not actually an indictment on Chris Paul so much as they're just pockets of possessions where Jamal Murray is so tough to do things with to move like displace when he's on defense. And I'm also wondering you mentioned the rim pressure from the Suns in theory, like, if you're gonna play more conservative with Yokich, the Suns are built to carve you up because they're just gonna absolutely destroy you from mid range. I'm wondering. I look at the Timberwolve series and on the one hand, I'm like, there were times where Yokics just was like so far away from Rudy Gobert and you're trusting your back line defense that you're not going to have that luxury against the Suns. And then I'm kind of like, well why not? Because DeAndre Ayton will bail out a lot of the times if he catches the ball, if he's hitting his mid range or getting all the way the basket. Then you sort of get yourself concerned with, Okay, well now we have to like do what do we do where we like would like? I think it gets harder if DeAndre Atan's giving you actual, actual rim pressure or again knocking down his jumpers. But the other thing I'm wondering, and I know they're not gonna do this. I know they're nothing because Aaron Gordon's already talking about defending Kevin Durant. What if you just said, hey, we're to throw Michael Porter Junior on Kevin Durant so that Aaron Gordon can still be that form of back line help because we have KCP on Devin Booker. You're not gonna throw a Gordon on Booker like he is that and then we're gonna play Yoki's super aggressively and that's maybe that's our counter too. You have this send footer who can run pick and rolls and Kevin Durant. I'm just wondering if that's something they could try. I don't think it's necessary, but like, could we see them get super and look? Zach Lowis wrote about all the different things the Nuggets have tried. Ben Taylor was first on it for Thinking Basketball at a great YouTube video on their their peel switching tactics. I actually think that Denver, and this is not to say that they're just going to run away with this series. I actually need that Denver's better built to defend this team right now then people are crediting them, And a lot of that, to me has to do with I just Jamal Murray had more of an up and down series I think against the Timberwolves than a lot of his stats suggest. He had some very just hot stretches shooting that propped up some of his numbers, But I have more confidence in him defensively. I'm just like I have more confidence in Devin Booker turning in like defensive player of the year shit against the Clippers in Game one. But so just I think they're better built to guard the Suns than we're crediting. And that's a lot of it has to do with Jamal Murray, but I think all more of it has to do with, well, if you play ultra aggressive, I trust that Michael Porter Jr. Or if you go to the Bruce Brown like amalgama of Okay, we're pulling Michael Porter Junior for Bruce Brown, I trust that there's gonna be enough answers to what Phoenix is doing unless they're getting to the basket more or DeAndre Ayton is one getting in the basket more to hitting his jumpers or his turnarounds when there's like no one in front of him. So that's maybe I'm not giving DeAndre Ayton enough credit. Then maybe I'm somehow not giving Chris Paul enough credit because you just have three guys on this roster who, in theory, are built to carve up the most popular defensive coverage that you may see during this series. Is it as simple as Denver might be able to slow down the Suns, but the Suns cannot stop the Nuggets. Like that's kind of where I'm That's where I'm going with how do the Suns defend the Nuggets. I think it's you could say, we know Aton, you're not gonna throw doubles at Yokich because of what he will do to you with those doubles. You can't. And I think and maybe I didn't see enough of the tail end of the Phoenix Clippers series, which was the one not the one that I kind of neglected, but it was just without Kawai and Paul George, it was just not compelling to me. You're not gonna get any good information there. The Nuggets have just way more off ball movement than most of the Clippers offensive sets, and even with Russ playing without Kawai and Paul George, I would argue that's STI the case there. It gets a lot harder, and you're when you're talking about the DeAndre becomes ultra important because he's gonna be going up against Yo Kitch one on one most of the time. But filling out that fifth wheel spot is really hard to me because that's the player in theory who you're going to unless you think Devin Booker can go against Jamal Murray, which hey, I won't rule it out if you play josh A Kogi to say where we need him to go after Jamal Murray. I think that makes sense. What if he's not hitting enough threes At the other end, that's also giving we talk about Denver's defense, that's giving them a point of flexibility to like, if you like, if josh Akogi's there, I might be like, hey, you know what, Michael Porter Jr. You go defend Kevin Durant, Aaron Gordon. You're on that and you just try and you know, swivel do have like be behind yo, kitch, send help or blitz is where you need to. That's something they could look at. But there's also we've seen stretches where Kogie has hit some of his threes. But if you think you can't play him on offense, that increases the importance of Tory Craig, which I do then believe makes it harder to defend Jamal Murray with I think like a Kogi is just the better answer there. And so I'm just I'm very fascinated to see. And also we talk about the Suns have a seven footer who's an all time great can get a shot up off over everybody. Michael Porter Junior can do the same thing, not off the dribble the way that Kevin Durant can. But like, you're not gonna be like you could maybe cheat off him if you're trying to, depending on who you want to stash there, But like he's not you don't look at Mike the person you're gonna like. It's Aaron Gordon, who's just been rough on offense for a while. I had a hell of a defensive series, I think against the timber Wolves for the most part. I think you phrased it best. But as I'm rambling here, is that the Nuggets, to me, have a better chance of disrupting the Sun's offense then the Suns do. No one's gonna brush all these games are gonna be like I'm smashing the over on game one if I'm a better because I think that it's it's gonna undersell what the I think it was at two twenty five when I looked these games are going to be in like the two forties. I think so. I mean, I phrase it as a question because I'm not sure I do think. I think it's so. The problem with the Sun, the problem with the idea of the Suns can't stop Denver and the Nuggets maybe can slow down the Suns, and therefore this is a Nuggets series. The problem is, I think the Sun's basically play a style and have the personnel that sometimes the defense doesn't matter. Like Duran is just the quintessential example of that, where you can cover him perfectly and he's just gonna make eight out of ten, you know, contested jumpers on some nights, and you just that's that's what decides the game. I so in some sense, the Suns have the ability to sort of be immune to defense and but but at the same time, you know there will be nights where they just don't make every every mid range shot. And the Nuggets, again, I just you know, I don't think are going to be stoppable defensively. You bring so the Okogi thing. I agree, he sort of has to be involved, and we never care about depth in the playoffs, but like, you gotta have a fifth guy. The cav series proved that, you know, I have a sixth too, right, Like, there's gotta have a fifth because you just so it's not gonna be that different than the Acorro treatment or go back to the Tony Allen treatment or whatever, or how I was just talking about how the Celtics will happily let PJ. Tucker shoot. I think at least in game one, if a code is in the game, he's not going to be defended. So unless he's gonna go Gary Payton the second and just perfectly time every baseline cut, you know, to catch lobs and dunk him. A Cookee might just be someone that you really can't have him out there and what is probably gonna be a shootout because he's a great defensive player and he hustles and he plays really hard. But like, if you're right, and I think you are that, we're just it's just gonna be who outscore the other team, Like a Cookey's not helpful in that effort, you know, outscoring people, especially you know, if one of his jobs is going to be the baby I don't know, double Yokich. We don't want to see that. But like he's not shutting down. I just I don't know. So yeah, I'm also talking in circles because we're just you know, dealing in hypotheticals here and we're trying to forecast a series. That is because the songs are still soign right, we don't know anything about the Suns like they if we learned to going up against the Nuggets specifically too. It's just like we have more information on the Sun's after watching the Clipper series, but like this just Kevin Durant wasn't there well, And even if we had seen Kawai and Paul George in the first round, who cares what we would have learned there because the Nuggets don't have that guy they have they have, They're totally differently constructed. The defensive challenges they present are completely different than the Clippers hypothetically would have if Kawhi had stayed healthy all series or Paul George had been involved. So yeah, I don't maybe I yeah, I keep coming back to the original question, like of one can maybe stop the other, and this being the Nuggets and the Sun's, I don't think are gonna stop. Like what does it look like? What what does a successful defensive Sun's series look like? Like Yokt's just isn't willing to try to go for fifty in single coverage like that, he just won't do it. She just if you rewind and he could do this though, he's so much better than he was two and three years ago, which is just it's just like, and I think it's it looks successful. If you've rattled Jamal Murray and or Michael Porter Jr. You've you've killed the non Jokis minute where you have Murray and Porter Junior staggering from him. That's probably what it looks like most successfully. And you could throw the sep like, what does a successful defensive performance look like? For the Nuggets? I'm even entertained. And maybe it's because I know Gordon will spend so much time on Durant, but just watching Devin Booker, I'm more concerned about the Nuggets matching up with Devin Booker than I am about Durant, in part because we know Gordon's gonna go on to rant. But I've also thought, like, you know, if you don't try KCP or Bruce Brown to handle that, like why not just try and if look, there are gonna be possessions where Kevin Durant, I'm still not used to it. He's just in the corners and I'm imagining they won't let this happen if this ends up being the case, But like, then just have Michael Porter Jr. There and maybe he does. Aaron Gordon need to take on Devin, but is he your best option there? Because Devin Booker is a better passer than Kevin Durant. I hope that's not a hot take. Friend. He's a better passer, thank Kevin Durant, smarter passer, thank Kevin Durant. And he's just better. It's not better. He's also more familiar with this team. When you're looking at when they when they're not involved in the primary actions, whether if they're not a screener or if they're not the ball handler. He's inherently more dangerous than Kevin Durant because of the way that he's able to move, or maybe he'll be more likely to go get the ball and that could end up really hurting. I mean every team, but the Nuggets specifically there though, And so I find myself, I don't know how much I'm influenced by the fact that we know Aaron Gordon is the quote on quote Kevin Durant answer for Denver. I am so much more concerned about how Denver guards Devin Booker. I've actually wondered, is this a Christian Brown series in the sense that Bruce Brown is six four KCP six five six four Just grow the six seven guy who could move on Devin Booker. He's a rookie and he might get absolutely roasted. But is that something they look at. I think, if you're the Nuggets and you come into this series doing anything but making Devin Booker like your first like we got to deal with that guy first priority, you're making a mistake and then you're necessarily diverting resources from Kevin Durant and that feels real scary to me. Like there is a version of this series where where we emerge from it the Sons of One, and we look at each other and say, well, shit, Kevin Durant still is the best player on planet Earth because he just you know, the Nuggets couldn't afford to give him the attention that you would normally give a Kevin Durant and he shoots sixty five percent in a four in a five game series win, and they just because, like you have to put Devin Booker at the top of the scouting report because he's other than Jimmy Butler. He's been the best player in the postseason, I think, and just has shown a total offensive Patrick Robinson besides Mitchell Robinson, right, Mitchell Robinson's like we don't even It's like how we always say this guy that X other than Staph, this guy's the best that X other than Mitchell Robinson. They're like, that's that is a scenario that feels real to me, where Kevin Durant just wins this series. But I do like the idea that you've mentioned of just let's I mean, we're not going to stop him, so let's put let's put MPJ on him and just use our defense elsewhere. It's a hope that Devin Booker doesn't carve us up and we can handle the eight and Paul pick and roll with four quality defenders and MPJ just hang out over there and hope the Suns don't remember that Kevin Durant can come like get handoffs and move off the ball like that's that's one way to combat that. We've somehow talked about all of this before we in Nubrasions, and I still think that deandreen might be the player that defines the offensive series for Phoenix because of what it would mean for how Denver needs to defend. I think a huge problem for the Suns if Deandreaden matters that much. That's I've taken the Nuggets in a because look, if Eighten's not like gonna get to the basket with or without the ball, shouldn't it make it a lot easier and more efficient and effective to play yokich up is not you know, actually blitz because they will. They'll the Suns will fare like they'll have Kevin Durrant coming in from the corner, Devin Booker coming in from the corner or whatever. I've also thought about, like are they gonna will the sun? Will the Nuggets help wildly off of Chris Paul when he's not running picking rolls because he's I think he's more willing to shoot, catch and shoot threes, but that's just never been his He doesn't, Yeah, he does, he still does. I think he's way more willing to There are so many questions, but I think it's Eighten because if he's not, then it changes how the sun Like I don't know the date on like how many Kevin Durant Devin Booker can rolls or run, but like you might need to run more of those, in which case, well, what are you doing with DeAndre Aten at the floor, like him hanging out the dunker spot? I would argue makes life a lot easier on Nuggets, and I don't want to compare him to Rudy Gobert's limitations on offense, because the Wolves ended up shooting fifty seven point five percent against Yo Kis at the rim, which is a big deal because it was just basically he wasn't concerned about it and the way that they were able to defend, and he was allowing like seventy percent shooting at the rim during the regular season. I don't think Eighton is like that type of restricted on offense, but he can bottle himself up by taking the wrong shots or bailing out refusing to dunk. Ever, and that's almost my flash bulb factor of the how the rest of the year is gonna go, and it might actually then fluctuate by game because that's what DeAndre Ayten does. Do you want to make a pick here, Well, I feel like I know what you have to pick. I know what I have to pick, but I'm going to pick Nuggets in six. This is not an indictment on the Suns. It's like I said, they've been really good, and they I don't even think they've come close to reaching their peak because there's still some offensive awkwardness. Their defense against the Nuggets actively concerns me, and I think that Denver is eventually just going to have more offensive counters to where you I think, would you hear that Phoenix might have the higher defensive ceiling, But I think that the Nuggets are going to have more answers to the Sun's peak defense than Phoenix might have to Denver's peak defense. And part of me thinks that may be irrational, because the Sun's answers are just will Devin Booker and Kevin Durant exist? But because of the variety of ways in which Denver's offense can I don't want to use the word mutilate, but because that's the way he's probably go at you, I just I have to pick Nuggets in at least seven because they're my title pick. You got, you got, roll with it if they're still alive at this point. I don't subscribe to that theory. I'm I'm a habitual flip flopper, and I also didn't pick the Nuggets to win the whole thing, so I have some flexibility here. I'm torn. I think, on the one hand, the Suns have two players that I trust in Booker and Durant in a playoff series. I think there's a great chance those are two the just the two best playoff players involved in this matchup. I can also see the possibility of, like Yoki's just we can be done with this whole. He can't hold up in the playoffs. I want that narrative to be over. I want the Nuggets to legacy series. That's a legacy defining series. We need like a like a blinking We need like the Challenge light to come on for a legacy defining moment. I'm gonna go Denver in seven, and it's mainly because I don't believe Chris Paul and DeAndre Ayton can do enough to supplement what I think Booker and Durant will do, which will be to just be phenomenal offensively. I don't feel comfortable with that at all. Like this feels like a total coin flip to me, and I want to make it clear. If I really believed that the Suns would win, and they might, I would pick the Sun's over. Sure. I it's not me just being completely stubborn. It's just I feel uneasy about them, and maybe maybe I shouldn't just because we have. It's been like, oh, we've seen sub fifteen games of Kevin Durant with this full group, and it's like, wasn't that That's part of the problem, But it's also part of the solution, right we don't We just don't know anything about the Suns. The first round didn't teach us anything. We don't have enough of a sample from the regular season. It's there's too many unknowns, Like how about this. I would say the Sun's ceiling is higher because if everything clicks, then they're unguardable. And they do, I agree, have more sort of a better set up to defend different teams across different series than the Nuggets do. But we just don't know if they can reach that ceiling. So this is the longest pod we've recorded in quite some time, and did envision us going almost a buck four five? Do you have anything to add or are you ready to take us out of here? I'm sure I could add lots of things, but I can't think of anything coherent to say off season outlook you want to go there if you want to start that right now? Is what kind of packages can they get for Bogdanovic? Is he on the table? No? Thanks everybody for listening, Thanks for your questions, thank you for thank you for correcting us on the pronunciation of overarching. I wish you know what. I'm sure there are things that I get wrong every time and no one tells me. So one thing we look forward to is grammatical correction. You have the air value that you're always right, so people are more likely a critique media irrational confidence. Let's see, speaking of which, go warriors tonight. Whenever you listen to this, I'm hoping they hope they close it out, not just because I want more serious to be over but because I am trying to bashed warriors. It's all objectivity at the end. I don't care, man, if you don't know by now that I'm not objective about that. It was just funny. So all the announces we just provided, and you're ready to go shut that beam down. I don't want to see that beam anymore. Get out of here. Yeah, So thanks for listening, rate reviews, subscribe to your friends, tell your enemies. We close, as always with a shout out to the one and only Frank Nilikina and an amended apology. Jared Allen no longer gets apologies. The apology now goes to the one and only game wrecking Mitchell Robinson.