Hey, everybody, welcome to coming out pod. Okay. Today's queer root
shout out is another one where I think, whatever, whatever gender you are
attracted to, whatever gender identity presentation, I feel like many can relate to
this one. Shout out to you if your queer root is the Hanson Brothers,
famous for Umbop, which hit the airwaves in nineteen ninety seven. If
you are a little too young or a little too old to be familiar with
the Hansons, they were adorable, long haired blonde boys who confused many many
queer people because there's sort of they were sort of ambiguous in their gender.
Many urgeoning queer women had crushes on the Hansens and then later realized, ah,
it's because they look like girls. But yeah. If you're not familiar
with the Hansen Brothers, do a Google image search. They were sixteen,
fourteen, and eleven when that song came out. God bless them. They
are now probably billionaires. And if they were your queer awakening, shout out
to you, folks, I am here today with Chris Tompkins. Hello,
Chris, thank you for being Thank you, Lauren, thank you for having
me. Oh my goodness, it is my pleasure. So Chris is an
LGBTQ affirming therapist and he is the author of a book called Raising LGBTQ Allies,
A parent's Guide to Changing the messages from the playground. Chris, Yeah,
is there anything that you would like to tell folks just briefly up top
about you. We'll get into your identity and all that. Yeah, yeah,
gosh, I'm an uncle. I have five nieces and nephews that I'm
super close with. Yeah, yes, five, yeah, yeah. And
I'm from Arizona originally, and I've been living in Los Angeles for my gosh,
I think it's been fourteen years now. Yeah. Yeah, And Chris
lives in West Hollywood AKA we Ho. And even if you're not from LA
you have heard a lot of discussion about who on the podcast. We have
name checked various bars there. We've talked about it is a queer mecca,
as it were. So that is where Chris is coming from currently. And
if I'm not mistaken, one of those nephews figures prominently into how everything sort
of kicked into gear with your work and your book and all that. Yes,
yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely cool. So we're gonna, yeah,
we're gonna get into we're gonna hear Chris's coming out story and then obviously
I've had a big impact on the work you do, so we're going to
talk about all of that. You've done a Ted talk, I know,
so we'll here, well we'll hear all about Chris. But before we do,
uh, just to kick things off, Chris, how do you identify
identify as a gay man? I love it? Yeah, Yeah, that's
funny. Yeah all right, Well let's sort of jump right into it.
So you said Arizona, that's where are born and raised? Yep, Teatown.
I call it Teatown. Tucson, Twoson, Arizona, Arizona. How
did how did it all? How did it all start? It all?
How did it all start? Yeah? Gosh, I was born in Tooson,
Arizona, Tucson, Arizona. It's a lovely community. It's kind of
considered a well what I was. It's changed a lot, but it's still
kind of considered a college town because the University of Arizona is there and it's
kind of well known for Yeah, Arizona. My vibe from Tucson are for
I've never I've driven through Arizona, but I've never spent time there, But
I've always thought of Tucson as the quote unquote liberal oasis type as certain cities
are described. I always think of Tucson as like the Austin Yeah. Yeah,
yeah, that's a really good yeah. Was it like that though when
you were growing up or is that like a more recent development. Gosh,
that's a good question. I mean, I think it depends on sort of
the pockets maybe that you where you grew up. I grew up on the
east side of town, so I was very far removed from the sort of
downtown, more liberal place. So my mom was born and raised, so
all of my uncles, all of my cousins on my mom's side are all
t Looaks through and through. And my father, he was born in the
Midwest, and so he relocated when he was younger, in his twenties,
and my mom and him met, had my brother and I. They had
a tumultuous marriage, a lot of drugs addiction related stuff, so they divorced,
and then my mom remarried and had my sister. So my sister's technically
my half sister, but I don't really consider her that because she's we were
grew up together. I grew up Yeah, we grew up together. Yeah,
so I have a brother and a sister. Both my parents had children
from like the step parents had children from their previous marriages. So I have
a lot of like your Brady Bunch family, Brady Bunch family, yep.
And yeah, and but I also grew up a lot with my cousins,
so my mom's So I was very close with a lot of my cousins growing
up and still we're still close today. Okay, And so yeah, so
growing up, at what point did you start to realize, oh, there
are there are feelings here that are perhaps different from yeah, my siblings,
and yeah, that dawning realization earliest memory type. Yeah, yeah, I
sort of described I can I could pin back pinpoint kind of around six or
so, was Yeah, I knew, of course, you know, and
I talked to a lot of people, you know, even with when with
regards to my book, you know, when I talked to parents. Is
that you know, at the time, I was six, so I didn't
have an adult construct of sexuality of what that understanding was. But for me,
I knew there was something about me. I internally I knew. You
kind of mentioned the the Hansen's brothers a shout out at the beginning, and
so you know, kids, kids are young, developing crushes and and having
sort of feelings or curiosity. And so six was when I I started started
to notice there's a difference about me that you know, the other boys that
I knew had. So I started to notice those differences. Okay, yeah,
and did you haven't? Do you remember obviously, because like you just
mentioned, you're six, you don't have like language for these things, are
that much of an awareness. But was there any part of you at that
point that was like worried about those feelings or felt I have to hide this
part? Like had you internalized those messages by that point? All right?
Absolutely? Yeah, already for sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I
mean I think kids are so intuitive and from the moment they're born, they're
sort of sponges, just taking in everything and consciously and unconsciously. And so
I grew up in a religious household. So you mentioned sort of Tucson being
this liberal place, but also I grew up with very much religion as the
backdrop of my childhood, and so the messages that I got were very gendered.
You know, boys are supposed to do this and like this, and
girls are supposed to do this and like this, And so I started developed
and started to internalize messages about what boys quote should do and should be like
because I wasn't those things. I felt like there was something intrinsically wrong with
me. Okay, So I very much hid this the the my internal,
my inside you know, emotion, inter emotional landscape. I was hiding.
Okay. And so it sounds like, I mean, I'm making an assumption,
So correct me if if this isn't accurate. But it sounds like in
addition to, or perhaps even more than in like an attraction way, you
were conscious of the like masculinity, like okay, oh yeah, gender was
a big deal. My mom remarried my stepfather, and my stepfather was very
much Chismo culturally, came from a different culture than you know, what I
knew growing up with my mom and my father biological father, and so I
immediately learned like, these are this is how boys, These are the activities
that boys do, and these are the activities that boys shouldn't be doing.
And I did not connect with that at all. So I sort of had
to you know, I joke. I used to joke and say that I
could have won an Oscar for the role that I played as this sort of
buddying heterosexual, you know kid, because I really I really took on this
sort of persona how people, how boys dressed, how they're you know,
their mannerisms, you know, those kinds of things that is so sad at
six that that's like already you know, to be afraid different. And I
do think that boys have it at that age certainly rougher than then, you
know, af have folks because it's like you can get away with the tomboy
label like that's you know, like, ah, she just wants to play
with a guy. Like that doesn't really go into effect with girls until after
puber day because that tomboy thing is just so prevalent in culture that like people
will sort of be more I feel like, tolerant of it. But with
boys, it's like right from the gymp you better not like ballet or painting
or something. Yeah, already there, they're watching you already. Yeah yeah,
yeah, yeah yeah. And I came with my stepfather. I came
from the family that they like, he'd like sports and hunting, and so
I remember we would go on these yeah, hunting, we'd go on these
hunting trips, and it was just a source of really just yeah brutal.
And and my sister I mentioned, you know, when she was born,
she was I was so excited, you know, because she was like this
little baby girl, and I used to love to like play with her and
do her hair and dress her up. And she became like this life,
like a living doll. Yeah, And so I still did that, but
I knew that it was sort of like side eye. You know. I
love that you're like helping out with childcare, and the adults are like,
mmmm, this is free help Yeah, more tolerant. God, that is
just so deeply depressing that at six years old a kid would have to be
doing that much like mental math about what it's okay to show and what it's
not okay to show. Okay, So as you get older, what happens
because I, and again this is all me guessing I didn't have this experience,
but like, is if it's like not easy, but if it's like
you get used to covering up the behaviors. But then I imagine when puberty
starts to hit, then there's these like attractions and so is it like,
oh shit, I have to cover up a whole nother set, like I'm
mastered covering up doing my sister's hair. But now I'm attracted in a way
that I wasn't when I was six. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally,
totally yeah. And yeah. So you know, I again kind of
with the religious backdrop, is that I grew up with the religion. I
remember that I had this distinct memory of my mother sitting my brother and I
down. We must have been it might I think maybe like fifth grade.
It was, I was in fifth grade. And I mentioned earlier my father.
There was a lot of drugs and you know, substance abuse in my
family growing up, and so my mom my father had a lot of like
relapses and just it was very pomultuous, chaotic, you know life. And
so I remember mom sitting my brother and I down to sort of help my
brother and I understand what was happening with our father. And and she,
you know, said, she sat my brother and I down and said,
you know, everyone in life has a cross that they bear, and you
know your father has this is his cross. And in my little I was
so intuitive and perceptive and hyper vigilant that I interpreted what she said as like,
oh, this must be my cross like how I feel about other boys,
or you know, how I expressed myself my gender. And so I
realized, if I prayed, if I became this really good boy, the
best Christian, that was sort of My mom was raised Catholic, my father
was raised Southern Baptist, but they converted to non denomination Christianity, and so
that was sort of what I was raised with. And so I felt as
though I could, based on my actions, become this person that I thought
I should be, this boy that I shot, this man I thought I
should be. So I say that because I started to sort of train myself.
If I found myself being attracted or even looking at other boys, that
I would I would sort of do the opposite, I would look at a
girl, okay, or to sort of like train myself. And so I
started dating. I started dating girls I had. I had girlfriends, you
know, in like junior high, like early your high. Wow. Yeah,
yeah. I dated girls partly because I wanted to avoid anyone thinking something
from me. I also dated girls because girls were interested in me, and
so I felt like it was just it was sort of easy for me to
just kind of act that way because I didn't have to force anything, so
it seems sort of okay, this is sort of what other people are.
If girls are interested in me, then there must be something about me that
I'm demonstrating that is working. Oh God, you were so I don't want
to say smart, because that makes it seem like it's positive that you were
having to do these things. And I don't mean to paint them in a
positive light, but like you were, like you were really in tune to
your You should have wanted to ask her. You're right, I would have.
I would have voted for you. And can I ask at this age,
is there any part of you that is believing or at least hoping that
you might suddenly fall for one of these girls that you're dating and it might
become real? Or do you feel like you already knew? No, this
is not who I am, but I've got to fake it really well to
make sure nobody knows. Like do you remember if you yeah, yeah,
No, it's a good question. I know there was absolutely. I grew
up again kind of with this backdrop of religion that if if your people were
sick, then you could pray and that would work. And prayer prayer,
it works, and I used to have this little booklet that I used to
carry with me. It was called God's Promises, and it was basically like
scriptures. You would look in the beginning of the book. It was like
there was like an index of if you were feeling worried, if you were
feeling fearful, if you're feeling lust, then you could flip to a certain
pages that would have scriptures specific to that. Okay, so absolutely there was
a part of me that felt that I could become straight dependent on how good
like good I was. Basically that's so rough. Yeah, okay, Okay,
were there so you keep dating? I'm assuming like into high school and
all, are you just here keeping with this pattern? Was there any girlfriend
who like stuck around for a long time or something really Okay, So you
were having like kind of like serious or serious for that age relationships with Yeah,
I did. I'll share a story, sure, and I don't want
to. I mean, I'm gonna jump ahead, but then I'm you know,
we can go back. But I started dating my girlfriend in ninth grade.
I remember there was a girl that moved from another state. She was
a new girl, and so I remember going after school and we would walk
and she smoked cigarettes, and so that kind of was a way for me
to become like, you know, an edgy. And so she remember she
taught me how to smoke. Oh remember I wrote her a note. This
is for your listeners. This is how old school like. I'm kind of
aging myself here, but I wrote her a letter and I asked her if
she wanted to be my girlfriend, and then yes or no and yeah,
and so we Yeah, so we started dating and I was in I think
I was in eighth grade, seventh or eighth grade. And we dated through
high school. So my senior year of high school is when we finally broke
up. I was going to college, and I actually broke up with her,
but I share that because you know, she really, I mean,
we were like best friends. I hung out with her all the time.
She was a year older than me, I think, maybe even two.
I think I think she was older. But also she was held back when
she like when she moved, she was she was from upstate New York,
so she got her license before so I think maybe I was fourteen, she
was sixteen, and so she was driving and so she's would come and pick
me up and yeah, and smoking, Yeah, and you know, and
also I explored with her. You know, I was still curious around like
sexuality, like you know, even my own sort of experience. And she
was a safe person that I could do all of those things with. But
I, but I, but it was a lot, a lot of it
was forced because I wasn't physically attracted. And so so what was interesting is
that fast forward, I'm jumping ahead. After I come out of the closet,
I moved back to Tucson, where I'm from, had moved away and
moved back, and I had just come out of the closet, and so
my cousin had introduced me to some friends of hers that were gay in Tucsons.
So they took me out to the like local gay bar, and so
it was called IBTS. It's still there on Fourth Avenue. And I'm at
the bar and I go up to the bar to get a drink and I
look over and it's Lisa, my childhood my childhood girlfriend. And we both
look at each other and she's like, what are you doing here? I'm
like, what are you doing here? Turns out she's a lesbian. Oh
my god, the best possible outcome. Yeah, I love Yes, so
we were both each other's at the time. We were both in the closet.
I mean, we were both so closeted, but we were both we
found each other. I feel like our souls found each other, and we
were sort of our safe our safe person for you know, our high school
years. That is that's so lovely, yeah, because it's so often you
hear kind of the opposite where the girl really does like the guy and he's
really trying to be straight, but like later he comes out and they reconnect
and she's like I always kind of knew, like, but I had such
a crush on you. This is so much better or had some of those
in college I had a girlfriend. I bet it was that, but we
call that that model. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think this.
You know, Lisa was really like an angel for me because she got me
through high school really, you know, and I was so and hers through
it too, Like that's mutually beneficial. Yeah, I mean I genuinely did
not want to be gay, and so I thought that, you know,
if I could become this person. But she really also helped, I think
with just with bullying. I mean I was, you know, and and
so I feel like having a girlfriend. Yeah, definitely sort of helped with
that. Did you ever and this isn't her episode of the podcast, but
just really briefly, did you guys ever talk about did she know at that
time? Did she was queer? Like was she sort of playing the same
game you were with like covering up or was she was sort of aware of
all, Oh I love this. Yeah, yeah, Oh I'm so glad
you two found each other. And it's so yeah, it's so funny because
yeah, it's so funny too because when we were as adults, I was
like, oh my gosh, if we both knew, we wouldn't have felt
the pressure to have to have sex with one another, you know, because
both of us were like forcing each other to Like I was forcing myself because
I didn't want her to think that I wasn't attracted her, and then she
was forcing herself because she didn't want me to think that. Yeah, wild,
that's so wid At least you were each other's like safe person. No,
And I'm sure there was like so much kind of like delicacy that went
into that because as you were both experiencing. Ah, this that's a movie.
Someone, someone make this an ending coming of age movie, like it
writes itself. Okay, shout out to Lisa. Okay, but yeah,
so you said you wanted to go back, so you okay, so you're
about to go to college. You have a natural reason, we'll say,
to end that relationship. At this point, did you still think like I'm
gonna make myself straight through the power of prayer or was there a part of
you that's like, I'm getting out of the house, I'm going to college.
I can finally try to like experiment with guys or see with this,
Like where were you with with that? Yeah, that's a really good question,
because I feel like my inner, like my inner soul was wanting,
like my unconscious was wanting to come out, but my conscious the sort of
or whatever is about. Yeah. Yeah, So when I got to college,
I did again oscar for the straight guy that I thought I should be
as I joined a fraternity. Yeah, I did. Yeah, And I
used to. I remember I used to even like specifically wear clothes and just
the way I dressed was very planned and very methodical and specific how I acted.
And I remember my freshman year. The summer after my freshman year in
college, I studied abroad, which was very young because typically. Yeah,
typically they you know, people study after their junior year. Maybe is that
that's kind of junior year abroad is sort of the typical. Yeah. Yeah,
so I was. I was the youngest on the trip, and I
remember I went to Italy and I had a girlfriend on that trip. I
was gonna. I was like, Italy is a great place to re guys
once I were in a well, and I did. I was sort of
coming out in Italy and I had these I mean I can share, you
know, answer specific questions, but I that's sort of where I started to
come out to myself and have like experiences with guys, even those I mean
it was very traumatic. I mean how I felt about them. Yeah,
do you feel like was it kind of the act of being Like so,
I have this theory where it's like if you're in a different time zone,
it helps you like come out and yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
Yeah. No, I actually came out of the closet when I lived in
Mexico for two years. That's a whole continuation of the story. But I
started to come out when I was in Italy because I feel like I was
in another country, so I didn't know anyone. I was so far away.
But then I had a girlfriend like in the program. Oh man,
that's so hard. Yeah, okay, yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Well, I had this fear that if a girl liked me and I turned
her down, then people would question why and they would think that they would
come up to they would come up with the conclusion like, oh, he
must not like girls. So I sort of came I sort of became codependent
with with women who liked me. I thought that I should like them back.
Okay, that's that's brutal for both sides, because it's also like those
girls are probably like really excited when you express it. Oh god, that's
hard. Yeah, fucking patriarchy ruins everything. Yeah, okay, So how
did you end up meeting God? Like, did you were you trying to?
Was there like one night you got brave and you like went to a
gay bar in Italy or was it just like they were coming into your sphere
and it was like, oh no, that's happening. No. Yeah,
well there are two instances I remember specifically. So one specific memory I had
is the town I lived in was near this like really well known beach in
Italy called Remini, where it's kind of like a party like Venice if people
are familiar with California, like Venice Beach is kind of very and so we
went to this place, Remedy, and I went with the group of girls.
Was a weekend and we're going to get a hotel. We got a
hotel and we were going to all just party on the weekend and then go
back. So they got some weed, some Italian weed. Yeah, and
it was like very different than you know weed that we spoke and so I
got really it was like a completely different high. And so I felt really
confident and really secure. And so there are these two guys that were Italians
that they're the ones who helped us, you know, get the mom if
you're listening, and and so we we we smoked pot and we got high,
and I was I was flirting with these guys like I was, I
was speaking Italian. I felt like I was just you know, And we
got back to the hotel and I remember people were sort of joking about how
I was being so flirty with these guys, like did I have a crush
on them? And I remember I was. I started, I started a
spiral. That's when I started the we became suddenly I started getting paranoid,
and I remember I was, I literally was staying up. I was I
couldn't sleep, and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, they're gonna call
my family back home and they're going to tell them, and then I'm going
to get home and my family's gonna, you know, reject me, or
they're not, They're gonna you know, like like get not want to ever
talk to me again. And so I was so paranoid. So I literally
the next morning got up early and I left the hotel and I took a
train back to the villa. And so I remember that was the sort of
like gay my sort of wanting to come out, and it peeked its head
and I had this oh no, and so I had to go back in.
So that's the first. The second was on the last weekend of the
trip, we all went to Rome because that's where our flights flew out of
the country. So my girlfriend we were together the whole time, so I
never really had an opportunity to like sneak away or you know. That was
the only time I mentioned that when we spoke weed. But this last weekend
we all went out to dinner as a big group and my girlfriend at the
time, her mom came to visit and they were going to explore Italy.
So she left early that night to go back to her mom's hotel room to
meet her mom. So I walked her back to her hotel room. Everyone
was like, oh, Chris is going to go say goodbye to you know,
Tiffany, And so I was. I found myself for the first time
on the trip by myself, and no one was going to question, like,
or did crisco or you know, because my friends thought I was with
my girlfriend and my girlfriend thought I was you know, she had to go
with her mom. Yeah. Summer, I was walking downtown by the coliseum
and a man approached me. Was busy night and a man approached me,
older man and smart started speaking to me an Italian and was asking me like
what kind of girls I liked, and you know, because he he sort
of presented it like he was going to help take me to a strip club
or somewhere to meet girls. And so he was talking to speaking to me
an Italian, and I remember I was like really shy, and I was
attracted to him. He was this like older Italian man, and I think
that maybe he could tell that I was gay, and so I remember him
asking me questions and we started walking and we were walking. He's like,
oh, I'll take you to a place that I think you're going to like.
And so we were walking, and I remember we walked. It was
across the from the coliseum. There was like a park, and we were
walking. As we got closer to this bar that he was taking me to,
I could see guys walking in like holding hands, and I panicked because
I realized, oh my gosh, she's taking me to a gay bar.
So I couldn't go in. And I like panicked and walked away, and
he was like, no, no, it's okay, it's okay, and
he like called me down and walked me to a bench and we started he
made a move and we started kind of making out. And that was my
first sort of sexual you know experience across from the coliseum, you know,
at the park so beautiful. Yeah, it was very romantic and at the
time, or I mean at the time, it didn't feel that way,
but looking back, and so I remember afterwards, you know, we hooked
up. We didn't have sex, but we you know, we hooked up.
And I remember that's when the shame came washing down and I remember I
was staying at a hostel with a group and he was walking with me,
and he was so nice and so kind and so like, you know,
I'll walk you to your home, you know, I'll walk you to a
place so you don't get lost. And I'm remember I was so I just
wanted him to leave. I was so now I became like disgusted with him,
and I just wanted him to leave, and I became really mean and
was just like, get out of here. And so I remember I rushed
up to the astill the hotel room, and I remember taking a shower and
crying and just saying, God, I'll never do this again, like if
if, if you just you know, I'll be the best, you know.
So that was my first sort of to answer your question originally about going
to another country. That was my sort of I feel like I was trying
to come out yeah, but it was still I was going back to the
US, so I you know, I still had I was yeah, oh
yeah, okay, So what happens when you do go back to the US.
You've got what three years left of college at the college? Yeah,
yeah, yeah, have the girlfriend mm hmm, and I. Yeah.
I remember I was dating this girl and she always wanted to have sex.
And I remember at this point, like I just it just was not something
that I was able to do that I was interested in doing. And I
kept on having to make excuses, and so I would, but again she
I was in a fraternity, she was in a sorority, so sort of
dating her was kind of social, you know, cred and so I didn't
want her to think anything, and I didn't want my friends to think anything.
So I kept on having to make excuses. I was like, fuck,
I don't like, what other excuse could I have? So I remember
a friend of mine started going to Bible studies, and I was a Christian.
I was raised, you know, with religion, and so I started
joining him to go to these Bible studies. And this guy who led the
Bible study became kind of like a friend of the fraternity. He would come
over and you know, have Bible studies, and I remember his name was
Pat and he would have a sober for dinner. And I remember he presented
us the opportunity to be baptized. And I had already been baptized, but
it was almost like he was presenting it like, you know, you're rededicating
your life God, and so I started to use that as an excuse.
And so I remember I was like, you know, I would tell my
girlfriend at the time, you know, I couldn't have sex because I'm rededicating
my life to God. And then we're going to get baptized. And so
I remember I even invited her to my baptism. My mom came. It
was like, oh god, I'm safe. It was like buying me time.
Yeah, I do, sir. And I've heard this, not this
exact story, but I have heard before where people quote unquote use religion.
Oh get out, yeah, sax, yeah, I let's use religion positively.
Have we got to use it? Like yeah, that's okay. Yeah,
so it bought me some time. It bought me some time, yay,
okay. So when you graduate, are you still with the girlfriend?
No, we broke. I moved, well, I we I moved out
of this. My job took me to another state. I moved to North
Carolina after right after a graduated college. So you have another sort of excuse
to ye, because yeah, but this is when I started to get really
depressed and experiencing anxiety and paranoid because I felt like I could I couldn't.
I couldn't go anywhere, I couldn't talk to anyone. I didn't know what
to do, and so I started panicking because everyone was asking me, I
started, after you graduate college, you know, my friends are starting to
get married, and so I'm starting. I was wondering, Yeah, and
you have a starting term girlfriend. Yeah, well we broke up, and
so I'm starting. Yeah, I'm starting to get asked like, well,
why aren't you dating? Like why don't you have a girlfriend? That was
like the biggest question. It was like nails on a chalkboard every time someone
would ask me, and I would always like laugh and like laugh at like
make a joke like well, I'm not ready to settle down or you know
whatever. And I feel like in college you don't really I mean there's a
club or activity for everything, and so you could just sort of blend in,
whereas after I graduated college you have to I had to pursue whatever it
was that I was interested in. So people started to question, well,
why wasn't I interested in girls or why was it because in college, you
know, girls were I was in a fraternity, so girls were coming over
to whoever expressed yeah interest, yeah, yeah, And so that job long
kind of a sort of roundabout way is I wound up moving after that job
was my first job. I was working there for a year and just really
just my sexuality was it was starting to become something that was I could no
longer hide. And so I wound up getting a job, you know,
in Mexico. I mentioned, and Okay, it's not like I plan,
it's not like I and like I remember, to another country. It's sort
of the opportunity was organic. So I moved to Mexico and I was there
maybe three months, and I remember I was at the lowest point really in
my life, like I was I was. I wasn't I wouldn't say I
was suicidal, but I was like starting to think those thoughts because I remember
going to this was again aging myself, but I remember going to they had
internet cafes, and I didn't have a computer. I was living with a
family and I didn't have a computer at home, and so I didn't want
to do this at work. But I would go to these internetet cafes and
I would research like what being gay meant and how to not be gay and
I wasn't finding anything that was helpful. And so I remember when I was
in I mentioned I moved to North Carolina after I graduated, and I was
part of a church that I was that was there and it was a wonderful
church. And so I remember I was really involved with one of my coworkers
and it was a beautiful it was really it was a really great, you
know uh group of people. And I remember I anonymously, I created a
fake email account and I anonymously emailed my old pastor about and I In the
email, I said, I have a friend who is having these thoughts of
you know, done it, and I kind of gave him the whole scenario.
And I remember he replied back to me and sent me a magazine a
story in like this Christian magazine that was about a man who was happily married
air quotes, happily married with a wife and had two beautiful children. And
the story and this it was kind of the center story of this magazine,
the you know, monthly magazine, and this was kind of the main story
of the cover story. And it was about a man who was successful at
keith being his homosexual air quotes desires at Bay, and they described this marriage
where you know, he was able to not you know, escape homosexuality,
and God, you know, helped him and him and his wife. It
described the scenario of him and his wife would get on their knees every night
and they would pray and God was so good because he blessed their marriage and
they had this beautiful, happy marriage. And I remember reading the story thinking
this sounds miserable, this is horrible. Okay, I'm so glad. Yeah,
because because I thought this was the moment where I thought women need to
feel loved. She ed that his partner needs to feel loved and attractive.
I remember the girls, like I mentioned my girl beautiful thing too. You
were like, so that's so lovely that that was your first thought was like,
yeah, that's well because I remember when I was dating, I would
have excuses to not want to have sex. And I'm like, how are
they in their marriage? Like how does she feel? Like, does she
feel attracted? Is he able to? Like they have two kids? Like,
and I had this scenario. This is literally I remember this. I
remember I was at the Internet cafe and I had this scenario flash in my
mind of like what if they're at a soccer meeting for their kid's team,
and a new kid moves to town and he wants to join the soccer team,
and so the father brings the son to the soccer team and he's walking
to sit down, and for a second, the man in the story looks
at the man and the wife is sitting next to him, and she sees
her husband look at that man. Is she thinking that he's looking at him
because he's attractive or just because someone knew is in town and so he's looking
And I'm like, I would never want to be in a relationship with someone
who has to question, who is constantly feeling that they have the question.
And I realized that you were thinking, I'm really impressed, honestly. Yeah,
well, I mean I realized in that moment that I could never be
married to a woman. And so that's when the sort of the walls started
to become, you know, because I was raised in a religion that sort
of taught that marriage is this sacred instance. Yes, oh thank you.
Yeah, it's so at odds with those two concepts are so at all with
each other, Like, yeah, so I realized like that I could I
couldn't do I remember walking home from the Internet cafe feeling like I can't live
this lie. I can't, And I swear I'm a very I've since reconciled
my relationship with God and a higher power, and I have a really beautiful
relationship and I'm very deeply spiritual, and I do believe that it was at
that moment, you know, in twelve steps, they sort of have this
the saying of the I think it's the act of desperation, you know,
is what brings us to sometimes come into the twelve step pure is that that
it sounds like the idea of quote unquote rock bottom, Yeah, rock bottom,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And so I feel like that was
my rock bottom and I and I remember, and it's usually after the rock
bottom that you sort of have this opening, and so so literally, I
don't know if it was like this, you know, this was twenty years
ago, but I don't know if it was like a few days later.
But I was basically a few days later. My work, the company I
worked for was American Company, and so they wanted me to pick up these
visitors that were coming to look at our our plant. And because I spoke
English, they wanted me to give a tour to these US visitors, and
so I went to pick them up for the airport and I got they got
in the car and here I'm this twenty three, twenty four year old,
you know, kid from the United States, and they're like started asking me,
you know, how many girlfriends do you have? You know, I'm
sure the women down and again nails on a truck board. Yeah, but
I was. As I was driving them to the office there, they asked
me, would you mind taking us to the hotel. We're kind of tired
from the flight, and you know, we'll do the tour tomorrow. And
I was like sure. So I dropped them off at the hotel and I
remember, well, I need to get something because I was playing on eating
lunch, you know, for the tour, and so I went to there
was a subway that was kind of near where on the way to work,
and so this is all like the details are so specific, but I covered
me so vividly. Yeah, yeah, well, and they're kind of they
kind of speak to the how the story unfolds is that I remember I stopped
at the subway to get a sandwich and I don't drink soda. And at
this subway they only in Mexico, they only had soda as an as a
drink option. And so across the street there was a ben Avidas, which
Benavidas is like a CBS or walgrounds or circle, and so I got my
sandwich. I had the company car. I put my sandwich in the company
car and I walked into the Benavidas to get like a water and as I
was walking in, this guy was walking out, and I remember I had
this physiological response like I was like, oh my gosh. And I remember
he looked at me, and the way that he looked at me felt like
he It felt familiar, like it felt like he saw me. And I
remember I told myself, oh, he's looking at me because I must look
like his cousin's friend. That's what I literally told myself. And so I
walked to the to get a drink, and I'm walking to the register and
I remember my palms were sweaty, and I was like my heart was racing.
I was like, what is happening? And I having a heart attack.
And so I look and I see him in his car. This is
like in the middle of the day on a Tuesday, and I remember he's
looking and he's pretending to read something, but he's like looking at me.
So I'm walking out, and remember I was walking to my car and I
was like, I have nothing to lose. I don't know anyone in Mexico.
I barely speak Spanish, and how I'm feeling right now feels really pure
and authentic and grounding, like it felt really grounded, and so I walked
to it, toward his car, and he rolled down his window, and
I remember I said then, like my broken Spanish, I was like,
oh, la nada mas kudria de SiO ola, which means hi. I
just wanted to say hi, and he immediately started to speaking. He's like,
oh, you're not from here, and so we started chatting and he
asked for my number, but I didn't feel comfortable giving him my number,
so I took his number, and I remember driving back to the office feeling
on top of the world, like I was like I was on a mountain.
I was on a mountain, and I wanted to scream how good I
felt. And I remember I got back to work and I was in my
little cubicle and I didn't do work. I just literally started writing like a
poem or how I felt and It took me about a week before I called
him, but I did because I was living with a family, a Mexican
family at the time, and they were sort of hosting me, and so
I called him and he was like, oh, I'll come pick you up.
And I'm like no, no, no, I'm like meet me at
the corner in front of the bank. Because I still didn't want anyone to
know, so but it was my way of sort of you know, and
that's how I came out, is that I met this person, I fell
in love and we dated. We you know, he sort of courted,
He sort of courted me like he was. It was very romantic. I
love this. What a great first experience. Yeah it was. It was
a beautiful first experience. Yeah, I mean it was you know, we
wound up breaking up and I was like heartbroken. But dating of data,
yeah that's the risk. Yeah, that's the risk of falling in love.
But it wasn't like a fling. It was like an actual relationship. Yeah.
Yeah he really really, yeah he really And you know, again kind
of speaking to the soul. I do believe in art like that we're a
soul and our soul sort of find each other and on, you know,
living on this earth, and so he had just lost his father. His
father had died and his mother died when he was a child, so he
didn't have parents. And so I feel like we found each other. You
know, Mexican grief, how you express grief is very different than how you
express grief in the United States, like what's sort of acceptable. And so
I feel like I sort of was in his life to help him grieve the
loss of his father, and he was in my life to help me come
out of the closet. Oh that's beautiful. Yeah, Oh my god.
Wow. How long did you live in Mexico? I lived in Mexico for
two years. We dated for about a year and a half, so almost
the entirety of my living there. My god. Okay, and during that
time, because correct me if I'm wrong, but up until this point,
you hadn't confided in anybody. Oh my god. I can't imagine carrying that
for a year, for a year, for almost think it was almost a
year, I want. I mean, I was very I mentioned earlier,
I was very close with my cousins, and one cousin specifically, which she
was like my best friend. And so I remember like when you know,
like when something's so good you want to like share it, tell people about
it even so, yeah, so I lied, and a girl that I
studied I mentioned when I studied abroad in Italy. I used a girl's name
that I studied abroad with and I lied. So for a year I was
dating Karina and Karna was actually my boyfriend Leone. I wait, at what
point what you said? You two dated for like a year and a half.
So did you finally during the relationship did you start coming out? I
did? I did? I did. Yeah, for me, and everyone
has, you know, I've heard many different stories, you know, in
the work that I do as far as how people come out. But for
me, I needed to have conversations. I didn't want to send a letter.
I didn't want to know. Everybody different for everyone, and so for
me, I wanted to be able to see the face and feel the emotion
of of what they felt and not from a place of like I wanted to
try and but I wanted to know. I wanted to know. And so
I remember I was going home to Tucson for the for the holidays, for
Christmas, to visit and literally I scheduled lunch with mom, dinner with mom,
lunch with sister, lunch with uncle. The specific people were doing a
tour. I was coming out to her. Yeah, I literally I scheduled
meals or something because I needed to tell my mom, my aunt and uncle,
one of my aunt and uncles, my cousin Tony, my cousin Tiffany,
and my brother and my sister. Okay, did you do it all
on that track? I did? Wow, that's amazing. How was the
reception from a lot of people there was? Yeah, it was, it
was. It was like half and half. It was mixed. You know.
My mom was the first person. No, my my cousin Tiffany,
she was the first person, and she was so kind and she cried,
and she she cried not because of me coming out, but she cried that
I had to bear this on my own, okay. And so she was
really a safe person for me to come out because she really encouraged me to
come out to everyone else. She was very helpful in that. And so
when I came out to my mom, my mom, you know, I
remember we're at a restaurant. It was winter, it was cold outside.
I didn't want to tell her inside the restaurant because I feared that maybe she'd
have this like strong emotional reaction and be really embarrassing. So I was like,
after for the end of dinner, I was like, Mom, can
we go for a walk outside, you know, after dinner? And she's
like, Chris, it's fifty degrees outside. It's freezing, and so I'm
like, Okay, well, can we just you know, maybe, well
we'll just go to your car. And so we got in the car and
she's in the driver's seat. I'm in the passenger seat, and I'm really
nervous. So I'm like, my I'm like putting my hands on my my,
rubbing my thighs, and I'm looking down, I'm breathing, you know.
She's like, Chris, you're freaking me out. What's going on.
She's like, oh, my gosh, did you get a girl pregnant?
I was like, no, clue, no, And I mean, that's
sort of that's become a bigger conversation or a question mark in her but she
she she sort of her response immediately was did you get her all pregnant?
And I was like, oh gosh, not that this was difficult already,
Like, no, I didn't get a girl pregnant, but I'm gay,
and so her response was she just was very silent, and she said,
well, you know what, my religion says, I can hate the sin
but love the sinner, and that sort of set the tone for her and
I and I told my sister, and I thought my sister was going to
be very warm and open and loving because I mentioned to you, like,
you know, we were so close, and she actually had the opposite reaction.
She sort of was devastated and cried and was really upset, which was
very confusing to me. It yeah, yeah. And then my my brother,
actually I was I was I reserved telling him literally the last day I
was in town like he was because I was your scariest one. It's not
like, yeah, I literally thought that I might he might want to fight
me, Like I literally thought he'd have like a physical, like you fucking
fact, like that kind of reaction. And so I'm right. I told
him, and he we were at my grandparents house because my mom at the
time was living with our grandparents and taking care of them. And he stood
up and grabbed my grab my hand and get me a big hug. Oh
He's like, oh bro, He's like I wish you would have told me
sooner, that would have that. He he's my younger brother, but he
was very tough and like scrappy, and I remember he said that he wished
that he would have known because he could have protected me. Oh my god,
because I was bullied, you know. Oh that's such a beautiful reaction.
Yeah, and I was very shock. I would not that one.
Yeah, yeah, oh god, Okay, wow, Okay, you did,
so you did coming out to it. So let me ask though,
because you'd mentioned like working at a plant or something in Mexico at this point,
were you not doing anything in the field of like therapy or didn't so
that all happened after you came out, which honestly is good because we would
hope the therapists have worked through their issues before they But like, did you
ever see that happening in your life, like going in that direction or was
that a direct result of you coming out and then realizing you could potentially help
people? Like how did that all shake out? Yeah, that's a good
question. I feel like for me, becoming a therapist has been a sort
of calling, and I feel like I remember my cousin Tiffany, who I
mentioned to you. I first came out to my after I moved back from
Mexico. So I ended up leaving Mexico, broke up with my boyfriend.
My work wanted to transfer me to Texas, and I was like, I
am not moving to Texas. So it was basically my options were to stay
in Mexico or moved to Arizona. And my uncle was starting up. My
uncle was there is a therapist, and so so I called him because I
was sort of I really was devastating after my boyfriend and I broke up,
and so he proposed to me to come work for his He was starting a
residential treatment program for adolescent boys with drug addiction alcohol problems, and so I
ended up moving back to Arizona to help him with his residential treatment program.
And my cousin was also a therapist, and I remember I was just really
curious about I didn't work in the capacity of a therapist there, but I
was just really curious about being a therapist. And I remember asking my cousin
like I wanted to know what it was like, I wanted to know.
I just had all these questions, and I remember what I didn't want to
do was she she's like sitting in the same office, you know, hearing
people's problems, and that's how she sort of framed it. I was like,
I don't so at the time, it sort of I was curious,
but it sort of scared me to how she described it, and so it
was always in the back of my mind, and I wound up moving.
Long story short, I immersed myself in an LGBTQ advocacy work, and so
I moved out. That's what brought me. Yeah, that's what brought I
do feel from a spiritual perspective, you know, that's really what we're all
here to do. I feel is that, you know, we're all here
to give something, make a contribution to the planet, and to leave it
in a way that hopefully is better often than when we you know, when
we came in. And and so my contribution was being able to take all
of my pain and transform it and transmute it into something good that could be
used to be of service for others. And so, yeah, so that
I moved out to LA to work for a national LGBTQ organization. But to
your point about therapy, I hadn't done my own inner work, and so
for me, coming out of the closet. It wasn't just a light switch,
you know, even though I was dating, even though I was doing
all this advocacy work. It's not like it all of a sudden, all
the trauma and baggage start dating. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I call
them like psychic scar tissue. And so that sort of the subtitle my book
is called A Parent's Guide to Changing the Messages from the Playground, And so
the messages from the playground are all the things that I had internalized that still
even though I suppressed them, they were still there and they were still impacting
my life and my choices and how I felt about myself. And so I
wound up working in West Hollywood at a bar. And so my story also
includes, you know, substance use and using a lot of things to anesthecize
the pain. And so then I found recovery. I found spiritual My spiritual
practice, you know, sort of helped me along that journey. And once
I got really clear about my purpose and how I wanted to use my pain,
that's what led me to the book, which sort of I joked that
I wrote myself into graduate school to become and then the rest is history.
And now I'm working as a therapist. Oh my god, yeah, kid,
I asked, Okay, I have two questions. The first is I
want to hear the story about the question that you got asked by your nephew.
But before that, when you started doing this advocacy, did that help
with the family members who coming out hadn't gone well with because if you if
their basis is religion, is it's hard for them to accept this because of
their religion, how do you not then accept someone who is so giving that,
like that's what they're really is dictating. So I would hope that that
would at least make them be more I mean, did that Was that like
a transition for them to being like, oh, this can't be bad if
it's leading Chris to doing all this good in the world, Like yeah,
yeah, it's nuanced. I say, yeh, I say, I'd answer
yes. And because I feel like that's where that sort of led into the
question that my nephew asked me, is that you know, I moved out
to LA to work for glad and, which is a large, you know,
LGBTQ organization, media media advocacy organization. And although my parents were well
parents, my mom was very excited and supportive. It wasn't exactly like she
was blasting Chris is moving out to LA to work for glass at the holidays,
right right right. So although it was this really wonderful job and really
wonderful opportunity, it was sort of layered with well, what can we share?
Why? Why why aren't they sharing his conditional and so kind of going
to your second question with my nephew, That's when I realized because I had
been working for GLAD and doing advocacy for a really long time, and I
was actually in Arizona, even though I was living in California. I was
in Arizona giving a workshop at the Arizona Quality and Justice Conference, which is
the LGBTQ state wide organization, ironically, and I was at that conference giving
a workshop, and afterwards I went home to Tucson to my family's and my
mom had because I didn't make it home for Christmas that year, so she
had a lot of my relatives and like family friends and my nephew at the
time was six, and that's when he asked me, you know, he
was playing in the living room. I sort of, you know, I
share this story in my in my ted X talk. But but he basically,
you know, ran over while he was playing. You know, kids,
they have a thought, they ask a question, and my even if
it's not at an opportune time, you know, it could be at the
grocery store, it could be in front of you know whatever. And so
my nephew, you know, his version of whispering was talking out loud.
So he like ran out to me and like whispered slash was speaking out loud.
Uncle Chris, is she or girlfriend to a high school friend that was
sitting next to me. We're in the dining room, and I just remember
everyone likes like time slowed down because I remember everyone's response and then and then
they kind of laughed about it. And then you know, kids they they
you know, he wasn't like he wanted to like sit there and like him
tell like he just had the thought and then asked the question then ran away,
and you know, but it wasn't until later that night that I started
to think about, well, wait a second, why doesn't like doesn't he
know that I'm gay? I mean, but I have not dated anyone,
so I've not since he's been alive. Bring I've not brought up a boyfriend
home, and so he hasn't seen me with anyone? Is that why he
asked it? Well, I would imagine that my sister would have talked to
him about me because she he has an older sister. And then I started
thinking, well, maybe she hasn't. Wait, why hasn't she? So
I started having all these questions, and then I remember was the next morning
I woke up and I asked my mom. I was like, cause I
mentioned to you I have five nieces and nephews, and so I started to
think about, well, has my brother not talked to his kids? What
about all my cousins they have kids, have they talked to their kids?
And I was six when I knew that I was gay, so my nephew's
six. So I asked my mom. You know, hey, Mom,
you know has Selene at my sister's name is Selena. I was like,
has Selena talked to her kids about, you know, having a gay brother
and me being gay? And my mom's response was, oh, oh,
honey, no, they're not old enough to understand. And that's when I
realized, Oh, this is a much bigger conversation and this is nuanced,
and that propelled me on the path of ultimately writing my book. Oh my
god, that's amazing. Yeah. The I will never get past the they're
not old enough to understand that, but they can. They're old enough to
wear you know, a onesie that says like, look out, ladies,
I'm a heartbreaker or it's like your little girlfriend. When they're like, so,
they're old enough to understand heterosexual shit, apparently like parents will always put
that on. But then when it comes to anything that's not heateronormative, they're
suddenly not old enough that bananas bananas. I mean you mentioned at the top
of your show, you know, Hanson eleven years old, teen bop like
breaking heart boombopper, Yeah, breaking hearts. You know all these young kids.
I mean my nephew he was six and he asked me if I had
a girlfriend. Yeah, so he is the concept of that, but he
can't understand. Yeah. It's so frustrated. Yeah, I you know,
I encourage it. And this is what I write about my book is that
if children are asking questions, they're capable of understanding you know the answer.
And again we sort of put our adult constructs of what that means. But
going back to me, I knew at six that there was something that I
was experiencing that I could have understood based on the conversations that I feel like
my parents or family members could have had with me. Yeah. Wow,
And has how has it progressed over time with your family? Like? How
is that? Has it? Has it progressed? Has it evolved at all?
Like? Did your book help them to understand it? Did it did?
I mean, the book really is an inspiration. I write in the
acknowledgment section. It really was a manifestation of the conversations and relationship that I
had with my nieces and nephews because I realized, you know, healing my
own internalize is homophobia, my own internalized shame was very important because I feel
like we teach through our demonstration, and so how was I demonstrating my life?
My life was an extension of what I felt about myself. And so
you know what, I lived in California, but my nieces and nephews lived
in Arizona. If I didn't bring a boyfriend home, how were they knowing
about me? You know, my gay my sexuality isn't the only thing,
but it's very much a part of me, and it's a part of the
work that I do and so what am I doing to help create allies?
And so I started having conversations with my nieces and nephews about you know,
I remember, you know, when my my brother's kids, two kids,
they were in junior high and I remember asking them, do they know anyone
who's LGBTQ at their school? And they're like, no, there aren't any
LGBTQ kids at our school. And I'm like, really, there aren't any
LGBTQ kids school. Do you do you think that they're not at your school
because they maybe don't feel safe to show who they are? Or do you
think that out of all the hundreds of kids that are there, that there
literally aren't any And and that sort of helped chip away at like how they
perceived their communities and I and I remember asking my my niece and nephew at
the time, and my nephew he's two years older than my niece, and
I remember asking him and he was like really popular. I'm like, you
know what, what if there was an LGBTQ kid that wasn't out or maybe
didn't know fully who they were. But they're starting to question, I'm like,
what do you think that you could do to help create a space for
them, you know, and really helping them in our relationship as an ex
like, use our relationship as an extension of how they are in the world.
Oh god, that's incredible. Yeah, and so I think that.
And so to answer your question, I feel like it's nuanced. I think
that, you know, gender sort of norms the kids. I taught social
emotional learning for six years, and I even though there has been a lot
of progress, there still are certain words and and sort of mannerisms and beliefs
that kids feel that we need to have. And so there's pressure of not
wanting to there. You know, kids, I read about this in my
book, is that when we're young, when we're in junior high grade school,
we want to we want to belong, we want to be a part
of. We're community oriented species, we're meant to be a part of.
And and so kids that's all they want to do is be a part of.
And so if a child is sort of interpreting themselves as being other,
they're going to want to belong. So what can I do to belong?
Yeah? Yeah, Oh my god, the work you're doing is so important
because yeah, we don't just need we very much need to be speaking to
little you know, queer kids, but we also, like you're saying,
need to be creating allies, Like we need to be talking to the kids
who aren't queer because there are statistically more of them, so let's make sure
they also understand and that they can yeah, be allies to the little queer
kids. Like just yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
well, look, before we wrap up, is there anything more that
you want to speak to about. Is there anything we didn't get to about,
like your work or the book or anything that you want people to sort
of walk away with or no. No, I mean I appreciate the opportunity
to share my story because I feel like in my experience I volunteered with p
FLAG. For your listeners who are familiar with p FLAG, it's a wonderful
organization. They have chapters in states and cities across the country all over and
in Los Angeles because it's a larger chapter, we had a speaker's Bureau and
so we would go into we would be invited into high schools, workplaces,
colleges to give a panel. And a panel basically is where you have different
people that represent different aspects of the community. You know LGBTQ, and and
we each share our story five minutes approximately about our coming out story, and
then we open it up to questions. And I did that for years,
and what I found is that most of the time we were invited to go
to high school is because there was some type of bowllying or the school would
the administration would recognize like, oh, we need to do some you know,
you know, advocacy, yeah, yeah exactly, instead of pre yeah,
instead of proactive. And but what I found is that when I shared
my coming out, So I remember I wasn't playing being on the speakers bureau,
but I was at a meeting one time and they needed a speaker the
next day again, they needed someone who identified as a gay man, and
so I remember I signed up and I had never shared like my coming out
story in that way before, and so I didn't really plan anything. I
mean, I figured it was five minutes, I'm going to speak to a
classroom of high school kids, like, it's not going to be that challenging.
And so I remember going there not really knowing how I was going to
tell my coming out story. And what I found is I told a love
story. I told my story of coming out and meeting a boyfriend and all
the feelings that I felt, the palm, sweaty, my heart racing,
all of those feelings that all of us had felt if we've ever had feelings
for another human. And so what I found is that after that first time,
kids raised their hand in the classroom and they were asking me like do
you still talk to them? Like do you like? They wanted to know
about Yeah, And what I realized is that maybe they couldn't relate or identify
specifically to two men, but they could relate to the feelings that I expressed
and felt so agreat yep and shared. And that is what I and so
to your list to answer your question about anything I could you know last share
is that sharing our stories, I feel like is an opportunity for us to
connect on a soul level, on a human level, despite the differences.
And so for all of those people out there that are listening in your audiences
to share their stories, well said and thank you since this is a storytelling
podcast, I appreciate. I so agree. I think the specificity I feel
like sometimes people think like, oh I have to be more general so that
people can relate, And I think the opposite. I think specificity is what
people hook onto and they're able to like, then they can get that,
Okay, I'm not attracted to men, but is specific features of the story
that they're gonna hook onto and relate to, and they'll be able to relate
it to their own like whatever, gender whatever, like Yeah, I said,
yeah, thank you. I remember, and I'll say this, I
remember after and I going back, I mean, I assured that I dated
women, I dated girls, I had girlfriends after my first after I met
my first boyfriend and driving back to my office that day where I was listening
to the radio and I was listening, I was hearing lyrics in a way
that I did not understand ever before. Yes, and that's when I realized,
like that there's something this is allowing me to experience human my humanness in
a way that I hadn't allowed myself access to before. Oh my god,
Yeah that is that is You nailed it, yeap, that is what it
is. Uh, because thank you so much. It's been so great to
speak to you. Where can people find you on social media? If you're
on there? Where can they find your book? All the shout out,
all of the all the things all the things. Yeah, thank you.
I'm grateful to have been here. My on social media, my website is
a road trip to Love dot com all one word. That's a whole nother
podcast story. And then social media Instagram, I'm pretty active on Facebook or
road Trips to Love as well. And my book. I'm so excited.
I just found out last week that my publisher is releasing my book this year
in paperback. Oh nice, Yeah, so raising LGBTQ Allies. It's available
now wherever books are sold, Amazon, independent Bookstores, bookstop dot org,
bookshop dot org. But it will be it will be released this year in
paperback. So that's a whole like softer covers. Yes, if you like
softer cover ye, yep, that's fantastic. Yeah, thank you. I
am as always at Lauren Flans on Twitter and Blue Sky Lauren Underscore Flans on
Instagram. The podcast is at coming Out Pod. The hashtag is hashtag coming
out Pod and shout out to my incredible patrons. Thank you so much to
Carmel kaz Simone, Cayenne Michelle l Adri, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran
Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Hernandez and beyond Clexa dot com. And as
I always say, if you want to support the podcast for free, a
really great way to do that is to rate it five stars on either Apple
Podcast aka iTunes or on Spotify. That's about it, Chris, this was
such a pleasure. I really enjoyed here. You're a good storyteller, speaking
of like you really I love that story, oh my goodness, and speaking
of love and romance. I will see you all next week when it's Valentine
Mindes Day. Uh so yeah, so you all next Wednesday. Thank you. Bye.