This is London Calling, London Calling. Hang on a chip, just let
me plug in my my good mic so let's start again. Sorry I was
a bit distracted. Let me just check out to the right microphone. Hammer
you were. You look like a kind of MK ultra victim. So I
still come here. It's weird. Welcome to London calling with me, James
Deny part. I'm a very good friend, mister Toby Young terms. I
reckon. This has got to have been the most chemtrail tastic summer we've ever
had. I can't recall a summer quite this grim. I mean, you've
had your week in the sun. I haven't. I've had my all my
time in this rain swept I mean, I know our weather's patchy, But
what's your theory? I imagine you don't think this is man made? Do
you? What the fact that it's been raining a lot? Yeah, But
more than that, it's not just rainy lot, it's also extremely overcast.
Um. But what would be the incentive for the cabal to what would be
the incens and miserable summer? Well, if you, if you wouldn't be
counterproductive because it would make people more likely. Yeah, before we before we
have our argument, and we are going to have an argument this week.
Believe me, it's not going to be Let's let's let's let's go through the
routine of the friendly bit first, where we pretend that we that we're just
talking about our lives. How's your week been? Well, I don't think
we're pretending at this point that this is the part of the show. I
most enjoy when we can just talk about normal things before getting the knives out.
I thought that's what we were going to do before you brought up chem
trail. Well well, well, well, yes, well I thought that
I thought you could. You could have shrugged it off. But but yes,
perhaps I went I went in hard too early. I'll try harder next
time. UM. Maybe I should have just a code word to like a
kind of safe word, to indicate that I think you're talking complete balls,
but I'm not going to engage, because otherwise we're going to bore our listeners
by arguing for the next fifteen minutes. So maybe my psych word will just
be I think that's balls, but let's not discuss it, or just just
the word balls, and then we can just move on. Anyway, So
my week's been okay, Um, i've I had. I guess the highlight
was going to lunch at a Saint James's club with my oldest friend because being
a menu, yeah, sure, be a member of one club during August,
you have this kind of reciprocal right to visit other clubs when your club
is closed. I'm sure you're familiar with it. And so it was an
opportunity to go and visit another club and take Sewan to lunch there, and
they quickly identified as as what they called reciprocals, which I don't think is
a particularly elevated status in the kind of Saint James's Gentlemen's Club hierarchy, but
they were actually I did. I took another guest to another club last August,
August twenty twenty two, and the reception I got in that club was
much snottier than the reception we got in the club we went to last week,
which was actually fine. You're not mentioning the names of the clubs.
Is that because you're scared, because well, I think it's taboo. I
think it's taboo. I think that's in for a dig. I think I
could risk my members losing my membership. We're talking white the reform. I
mean, they're all up their own, but the one I really hate,
the one I really hated, the Carton Club. The Carton Club is just
the worst. Although they're all pretty ghastly, I mean not, I'm not
a member of any of them. I don't know why anyone would be.
Um. Yeah, I've been to the Garret's awful as well. Yeah,
I got blackpool by the Garret. I can tell that story. I am
my uncle who was remember I think no, I think he I think he
wasn't a remember of the Garret, but but arranged for my name to be
put down. UM, so in due course I stood a chance of being
elected. Um, and I was blackballed where my name did come up.
And the reason I was blackballed is because I'd given a bad review to the
food or mentioned the food in passing in when I was a restaurant credit for
the evening standard. And because the head of the catering committee was also on
the membership committee. Um, I was blackballed. Um. And otherwise I
might very well be a member of the garret. Um with that stupid tie,
ye famous garret tie. Yeah, yeah, I'm not. I'm not
again, UM like you or I quite like them, um, but I
mean that it's it's it's the real advantage of being a member of one of
these clubs is that good wine is about a third of the price that it
would be in a normal restaurant. So the food isn't subsidized, but the
wine is. It's a kind of I suppose typical in many ways of the
kind of idiosyncracies of the British upper class. They don't really care what they
eat, but they do care what they drink. Yes, so Sean,
I'm Sean did one of my favorite ever podcasts with me years ago when he
talked about what it was like being captured by the Taliban is. I'm sure
you and you and he get on very well, but I was just wondering
is he ideologically team Tobes? I mean, does he still is he a
normal like you or is he a bit more conspiracy minded. He's probably a
bit more conspiracy minded than me, but I wouldn't go as far us to
say he's Team James. He's just come back from the dom Bass, where
he's been embedded with the Russian Army. I think he's the only West and
journalist, at least the only journalist who isn't kind of a creature of the
Russian regime, who's been embedded with the Russian army during the Ukrainian War,
and he's made it. I'm not sure that Eva kay bartnett Is is a
is a creature of the Russian of who who's name, Well, she isn't.
She's another very brave reporter that I can think of that has been been
embedded with the I think she's been embedded with the with the Russians in the
dom Bass. But anyway, san Sean, So how long did he spend
them He's been there for the best part of a year, I think,
right, And I think he's he's got some great footage and he was actually
shot at obviously several times um and has some great stories and he's in the
process of editing editing the documentary at the moment. Well, so you've been,
you've been, as we know, of the Daily Skeptic. You and
your colleague Ian Rons have been in pushing this really strong Zelensky staff, taking
a really strong pro Zlensky line, fiercely anti anti Russian in a way that
sort of belies the name skeptic, because I mean it's basically the narrative that
we're getting in all the newspapers that the Ukraine Ukraine goode and blue and yellow
flag good. But did Sean tell you anything that kind of caused you to
reconsider your gung ho let's send our kids to die for Zelensky stuff. I'll
just say the word balls there, James and leave it at that. He
did. He did say some counter narrative things. So I mean, I
think probably the main takeaway, which I guess is likely to antagonize the pro
Ukrainian side in this conflict and the supporters of Ukraine, is that the vast
majority of the Russian conscripts he met were enthusiastic Russian patriots, that they hadn't
been press ganged, or at least that they weren't the kind of you know,
low morale um rabble that wanted, you know, nothing less than to
be there that they are sometimes portrayed as being in the Western media. Um,
So that that was I guess that was quite eye opening if you are
if you if if you've been sort of lapping up that particular story. But
it may be that you know, he couldn't entirely trust the people he was
talking to and embedded with a meeting because to a certain extent that may have
been controlled by the Russian authorities. So perhaps some of that, some of
that interview footage will be discounted by people who are pro Ukrainian. I don't
know, but I think it's I think I don't think he's I think it's
it's um. It's a sort of fairly even handed, um, sort of
fly on the walls sort of approach. I don't think he I don't think
he's deliberately trying to kind of engage with kind of the broader debate and kind
of a firm one side and rebut the other. But it sounds like a
fairly a fairly kind of nuanced kind of portrait of what it's like to be
a Russian conscript. But so how I mean, I'm very interested that that
Sean went with the Russians, I mean, all the other kind of war
war correspondent, you know, kind of I want to see the elephant stuff.
They're all going out with it with it with the Ukrainians, aren't they.
So it was quite an interesting decision of I mean, a very interesting
decision of Sean's to go with the Russians. How how did it come about?
Well, I think it was because he realized that if he could get
embedded with Russian troops, he'd be one of the perhaps not the only,
but one of the very few Western journalists who could claim who who would be
able to make a documentary, who would have a documentary which which told the
story from that point of view rather than the point of view being that all
the other stories have been told from. So I think it was just kind
of to give himself a unique selling point to enable him to produce having a
bit more interesting and which would stand out certainly unique selling point in the western
Western media which has been just uniformly anti anti Russian. And what did he
not viotchsafe any views on how the war's going or the Western equipment that we're
all sending out of our expense without. Yeah, he thought that, I
mean, he he he doesn't. He doesn't buy into the idea that morale
amongst the Russian forces is incredibly low and that they cannot hold out for much
longer. His his, his, his sort of his assessment is that morale
is actually well, not nearly as bad as it's being portrayed. Doubts because
even though conditions are pretty poor, they're much more stoical, and they're used
to, you know, operating living in quite bleak, deprived circumstances, and
so to kind of undermine the morale of a typical Russian conscript is going to
take a lot more than undermining the morale of you know, a British soldier
in a similar circumstances, because the alternative for them isn't a life of kind
of comfort, it's a life of pretty desolate privation as well. And he
thinks that they're pretty well dug in, that they're they're they're well thoughtified,
et cetera, and he doesn't see a quick resolution to the conflict. Right,
that seems quite a quite and oddly um ah, well, it sounds
like you were sounding then like a kind of a Japanese senior officer reporting on
the progress of the Japanese army in in sort of in early early nineteen forty,
right. I mean, so that's the best he could say, that
that of the Russians, that their morale is not as low as is as
as as has been claimed in the West. That was his take. That
was all he'd say. He wouldn't say that the most performed but on some
fronts, or or that the Western military equipment being sent out there is being
trashed by Russian UAVs and stuff, or or that it's always the time.
It was just basically, the best the Russians can hope for is their morale
isn't as bad as we in the West have been encouraged. Well, I'm
I'm giving you I'm not I'm not telling you everything he told me because no,
clearly not confidential, and he wants to say money when the documentary is
broadcast, doesn't want to give it all the way beforehand, and he's got
quite a few scoops, I think. So I think that's that's more or
less all I can share with you. I was sensing, I was I
was sensing that. Okay, well, um, while we're while we're still
in in in sort of friend, tell me about your wen, James.
Well, it was my birthday, so so thank you. I spent my
time sort of begrudging the fact that it was my birthday, as one does
when one reaches a certain age. And I had a nice carrot cake made
for me by my daughter, which I wanted to eat more, but obviously
it can completely bugg us up your your keto. Um, you know,
sugar is a no no and if you haven't been eating sugar for a while,
you notice it because it's a poison. But it's a lovely cake anyway,
And I went for a walk and um and I had I had a
spicy margarita in the evening and that was my birthday. We're going to go
to a place in the in the in the Cotswolds called Something and Something,
um, some biju eatery, but apparently it's quite hard to get the table,
so we didn't go in the end, which seated me fine. So
that was my That was my birthday. Can I ask how old you were?
Or is that something that you don't Yeah, no, no, I'm
I'm fifty eight. M I have to be told before before my birthday how
old I am, because I know, I mean genuinely, one kind of
stops counting. I could do the maths obviously when I was born in nineteen
sixty five, but I don't like doing the maths. Right. Yeah,
well I'm I'm I'm in a worse predicament than you. I think when you're
fifty eight you can still you still sort of think of yourself as being in
your sort of mid fifties, or you can persuade yourself that you know,
sixty is still some way off, whereas for me, sixty is two months
off. So I'm, I'm sort of I've I've been trying to, you
know, process that and adjust to it. And it's odd you feel like
you ought to be kind of behaving more like someone in their sixties. As
the kind of big six zero approaches, you feel like you need to adjust
your behavior and become a bit more sedentary and maybe take more naps. You
feel like, I mean, I don't really feel like I need to do
any of those things, you know, but but psychologically you kind of the
prospect of being sixty takes a toll and you sort of it makes you feel
older, even if you don't feel older, if you see what I mean.
So, I don't really feel like any diminishment of energy or ambition or
kind of animal spirits still got lots of you know, can still work hard
and fill every unforgiving minute and the rest of it. But nevertheless, it
feels like, you know, I'm I'm, I can see the runway ahead
of me. You know, and and the plane is now that the undercarriage
is down, and I'm coming into land, and it's all I've landed,
and then the plane will kind of apply the breaks and then eventually it'll stop.
It feels like, you know, I'm in the I'm in the final
strait now in the home strait, which is quite depressing. Well, when
I was I suppose this must have been in my earlier fifties when I was
banned by my family from from hunting because of my accidents, and they all
ganged up on me. I got this very stern letter from this woman called
cath Kathleen Peyton, who was wrote some children's books and that in the sixties
called Flambards about horses and hunting and things came Peyton there were a TV series
as well, and she wrote me a letter saying, I think it's very
bad that you should give up hunting. You're still young enough. And she
she was writing, she was about ninety three or four when she wrote this
letter, Zilla, I think you should do what you enjoy and stop worrying
about things like age or whether or you know whether it's going to hurt you
or not. And I thought that was that was actually very good advice.
I think I think that one should do what one loves as long as it
doesn't harm members of your loved ones whatever. I think. I think it's
a it's a jolly good thing. And I think I think one shouldn't One
shouldn't fixate on age because of course, I mean, like you know that
you can meet people who are the same age as you who look really way
way older because they their bodies are the bodies of a seventeen seventy or so
people. Their ages of number, they're right, yeah, yeah, I
mean what one one one coping mechanism, which we'll both be familiar with,
is people sort of exaggerating, you know, their age and infirmity as they
get older, um, in a sort of self deprecating way. I always
thought that was the kind of impetus behind the Oldie magazine. I think Richard
Ingram's started it when he was still in his fifties, and the idea was
he was kind of embracing old age to kind of advertise to the world he
wasn't in any way scared of it. He was embarrassed about getting older.
So that that is the one's natural impulse is to kind of play it down,
not talk about the fact that one is, you know, getting older.
Not tell people what birthday it is that you've just had or you're about
to celebrate. People are generally kind of embarrassed and feel that if they let
the world know how old they are, then the world will start treating them
differently. They might get less work, people might start urging them to retire,
They'll be taken less seriously, They'll become more invisible. So the natural
impulse is to kind of disguise the fact that you're getting older and do everything
you can to kind of create the illusion that you're a younger person than you
really are, particularly women. So the the obvious reaction, if you're a
kind of contrary, quite self confident person is to do the opposite. And
I think that's what Ingrams and Code did when they set up the Older.
But I'm not sure I'm bold enough or self confident enough to kind of wholeheartedly
do the opposite and kind of embrace becoming sixty and write a column about it
and go on the airwaves to talk about it. Um, you know,
I haven't yet got past that kind of feeling that it's going to diminish my
diminish me somehow in other people's eyes if they discover just how old I am.
Yeah, but there'd be awful sort of labeling yourself in that way.
I'm the jaunty sixty something communists. That's my spadiality writing pieces about how I'm
sixty and I don't care. It's like, it's like it's like being one
of those cancer columnists. I mean, it's not something you want to you
want to end up doing. You just want to be be, you don't.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. But yeah, one benefit, James,
is that I'll get a bus pass and rail pass um and I think
in the rail parts, I think, you know, if you travel around
the country on the train to as I do being a keen follower of Queen's
Park Rangers, I think it can actually save me quite a lot of money.
But when the trains aren't on strike, you mean, when when the
trains are actually working. Yeah, on the subject of which, James,
Yeah, the most depressing aspect of my weekend is that I went and saw
QPR's opening game of the season against Watford at Vicarage Road the Watford Stadium and
QPR were beaten four nil and all four goals were scored first No, and
all four goal goals were scored in the first half, which was really humiliating.
So you think it's sat there in the second half just being bored,
you know, just just just hoping against hope as the minutes ticked by that
something might happen and it was just lost, lost, or that they wouldn't
score again. On the upside, James, I couldn't get tickets because I
wasn't quick enough off the bat off the bat, couldn't get tickets for the
away end where all the QPR fans were. So I was a friend of
mine who is a Watford season to get holder, gave me his season ticket
and a couple of other guest tickets, so I was able to take my
kids. But we were all sitting in the Watford end, so had QPR
scored, it might have been difficult not to celebrate, at which point we
would have been immediately identifiable as QPR supporters surrounded by hardcore Watford supporters. So
perhaps it was just as well that you don't wear scars or any any telltale
signs. Now you don't work, No, you don't, if you're if
you're sitting in if you're sitting with the home fans, I don't away game.
No you don't wear your colors? No, yeah I can, I
can see that. Do you think we should do our advert? Yeah?
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to use our link at Express vpn dot com slash London to get an extra
three months of Express Vpn free. Now Now, Toby, I want to
take you to task. I thought that last week's episode was about the Nadia
of London callings, and I spent my whole time on the back foot being
asked, not just probing questions, but I felt that that the questions that
ill behooved you. You the claim at the beginning that you're my very good
friend, Toby Young, and I was wondering what the hell was going on.
You seem to approach that show in a kind of really a spirit where
you would determine to run down James. And by the way, I didn't
mind, I don't mind at all when you questioned me on the details of
my conspiracy of thees. I'm quite comfortable with that. But I thought it
was really, really weird the bit where you you'd obviously put a lot of
thought into this and prepared it. You you adore ly. I mean,
it was almost as though you were playing with yourself under the table as you
recited it. You quoted this speech by a very nasty piece of work called
Yuval Harreri and the speech that you quoted was him saying that inter alia,
that conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories were anti Semitic and start. It was clear
that he was trying to get conspiracy theorists silenced. And you couldn't see anything
wrong with this. You couldn't see anything that was questionable about Yuval Hariri.
And you've furthermore, I mean, had you been a kind of standard,
a sort of leftist rabble rouser who believed in terms like racist and anti anti
semit anti Semitic and stuff, I could understand it. But here was you,
president of the Free Speech Union, gloating over a speech and repeating uncritically,
and you didn't you you thought he was a perfectly good egg, and
you weren't allowed to have conspiracy. There is about the World Economic Forum,
which you thought was a perfectly decent, reputable organization. You were gloatingly quoting
this speech, and apparently it seemed very much to me like you were taking
this bastard side. And I really was puzzled by that because of your role
as head of the Free Speech Union, I wondering whether you could explain why
you launched into this attack and be why you can't see problems with somebody trying
to close down free speech on the basis that I don't know there are these
things called conspiracy theories and that they are somehow wrong. Well, first of
all, I think you've misremembered the conversation a little bit, James. When
you asked me whether I was a fan of Uval, I said no,
And I certainly don't agree with his position, which is that conspiracy theorists should
be banned from the Internet, and I think I made that very clear.
I thought that I wanted to hear your response to his kind of blanket dismissal
of conspiracy theorists and his claim that at the root of a lot of conspiracy
theories was an idea that cropped up a lot in anti Semitic conspiracy theories,
like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and so forth. I wanted to
hear your response to that. But I wasn't. I wasn't endorsing his analysis,
and I certainly I certainly wasn't endorsing his proposal to suppress conspiracy theories.
I don't think that's a good idea and never have done. But you know,
you may have interpreted it as an attack, but I think that's I
don't think that's that. That isn't how it was meant. And I hadn't
put a great deal of thought into it. I just did see that passage
that he quotation from him when he was on the Lex Friedman Show, and
just thought i'd put it to you, because you know, it's it's a
common criticism made of conspiracy theorists, and I wanted to know what your response
was. It wasn't it was. I don't think it was. It wasn't
because I endorsed every jot and tittle of his particular. You should surely you
shouldn't have been endorsing any of it at all, not even the jot and
tittle as opposed to not every jot and tittle. I mean, well,
I thought what he said was just extraordinarily out of order. It was just
sort of smearing well, I thought his, I thought his. I thought
his point that, Um. One of the things which made conspiracy theories attractive
is that they kind of simplify the world and come up with a kind of
unified theory which enables them to explain everything, including the weather. Seemingly.
That's an argument. That's that was that's that's a smear, not an argument
too. Well, that's just just saying I thought I can't be bothered to
understand conspiracy there, so I'm just going to chuck out this random thought on
them. Oh yeah, right, They're just for people who can't can't deal
with the point he made, which is that the world is much more complicated
than that and doesn't lend itself to such simple reductive analysis. I mean that
that's something I agree with and a point I've often made to you. One
of the reasons, you know, I think for the most part it's happenstance,
luck, cock up, et cetera, rather than some kind of organized,
malevolent conspiracy. Um. So I thought I thought that aspect of his
analysis had some you know, um application that rang true with me. But
no, I think that I think that he went too far when he,
you know, he compares he compares all conspiracy theorists to anti Semites. But
I guess sometimes when you have talked about the cabal and you and you,
and when you bring up George Soros and sometimes the Rothschilds and talk about you
know, various sinister international organizations, it does sort of rhyme with. It's
not explicitly anti semitic, but it does rhyme with a lot of antic rhymes.
I wanted to hear your response to that. So when so, so,
let me just get to get this right. Job. So, um,
when there's a there's a murder, say and and that a man is
found with a knife in his back, it's murder. But if it's committed
by somebody subsequently emerges that they're Jewish, that that should be factored into the
investigation because what they deserve special status or that they should be beyond criticism.
I don't see what you're saying. I mean, surely, surely that the
Jewishness or otherwise if any of the people involved in the conspiracy is irrelevant.
I mean, if somebody, if somebody does something wrong, whether they are
Jewish or not Jewish, it really doesn't matter. The fact shouldn't be used
as a way of letting them off the hook. But James using a phrase
like rhymes with seems to be a very weasily get out. It seems to
be like sort of guilt by association. You know, I'm not going to
accuse you of being being wrong and sort of some one of those nasty people
who hates Jews. But at the same time you sort of kinder are you're
having it both ways, aren't you? Take I think you're pretending to a
naivety if you don't see that there is a link between many of the conspiracy
theories that you expound. I mean, you often talk about a cabal of
rich and powerful people yes run the world and have been running the world for
millennia, and are isn't it likely that some of those people will be It
often sounds as though you're talking about the Jews, isn't isn't it like that
some of the rich people in the world will be Jewish? And does that
Does that mean that any theory involving rich people should be discounted because some of
those people might be Jewish? And therefore somebody like Toby defending free speech will
say, well, I believe in free speech, but not when it rhymes
with anti semitism. But it just seems to be a very slippery argument to
me, where do you get this anti free speech dimension. I'm not saying
you should be banned from anywhere. It's funny you should be asking me where
do you get this anti free speech dimension. The nature of free speech in
my book is that free speech should be the ability to say what you like.
We've already established in previous conversations about things like, you know, pedophiles
and so on, that that you believe that free speech is something that should
be be okay up to a point, but beyond that point it should not
be allowed. It's your position seeds to be free speech so long as the
regulatory authorities allow it under their current terms, which I don't think that.
I think I've articulate in my position before, which is that I think that
all speech should be permitted unless it's likely to lead to imminent violence. Yeah,
imminent. Oh, I think that that new word imminent has been inserted.
I think that's always been my standard. That's always been the test.
It's the same test that's applied by the Well I'd love to know what this
what this imminent? What say imminent? Do you mean? I mean what
in the next hour after the person said it, or the next week or
what? Where did this word the imminent come from? I think imminent?
Well, it's it was the standard I think introduced in what Brandenburg versus the
State of Ohio, which was a Supreme Court case in which the distribution of
seditious political leaflets was ultimately considered allowable by the Supreme Court, as I recall,
because it wasn't likely to lead to imminent insurrection, by which I think
they meant, you know, within days of the literature being distributed. I
mean the problem with not introducing the imminent caveat is that you can you can
then say, well, anything could potentially lead to violence, you know,
if it's interpreted in the wrong way in due course, if you have a
completely open ended, no fixed timeline. So you have to kind of be
a bit more specific than that, otherwise it becomes a meaningless, meaningless test.
And while are on the subject, what do you understand by anti semitism?
Do you think it's a specific term or do you think it's so broadbrush
is to be meaningless or is it somewhere in between? What are what are
the limits of anti semitism? Because I mean, if you look into the
history of the word, you know the history of the word, you knew
where it came from. No, you might research that, but tell me,
tell me what you think anti semitism means? And so what would constitute
anti Semitism, and what wouldn't what would be an unfair use of it?
Well, I suppose I think of anti Semitism as being hatred of the Jews
and often irrational blaming the world's problems on the Jews, imagining that they are
somehow responsible for your own problems, the lack of your own success and your
identity group's success, as well as responsible for many of the troubles in the
world, conflicts wars. So would criticism of Israel be anti Semitic? I
think it. I think it's um. I don't think that any criticism of
Israel is anti Semitic. No, it can be. You can be a
philo Semite and still you know, dislike Israel's some of the policies of the
Israeli government. I think being anti Zionist can bleed into anti Semitism, but
goes lead into That's a bit it's a bit like like kind of right.
I think as a vendor diagram in which how how would you how would you
anti zionists overlap? How would you see much? How would you say that
all anti Zionists are anti Semitic? How do you distinguish between anti Zionism and
legitimate criticism of Israel. No, No, between legitimate criticism of is An
anti Semitism. No, you said anti Zionism. I mean, I think,
but you misunderstood them. I said, I didn't think all anti Zionism
was anti Semitism, but I thought that that that there isn't Sometimes anti Zionists
are anti Semitic. But how would you How would you decide this? I
mean, I mean, isn't it Isn't it easy just to say, Look,
people can say what they like and that's the deal. And because after
all that, the hardest free speech to defend is the free speech that most
needs defending, because otherwise you enter a world where where we get well,
like for instance, James, I think, but I wouldn't. Yeah,
I don't think I would necessarily want to suppress prosecute people who are anti Semitic.
I mean, for instance, I think Holocaust denial, um I mean,
I think it obviously, I think it's it's it's bollocks. But I
think the best way to um rebut it is to allow Holocaust and i as
to set out their stool in the public square and then confront them with all
the evidence that the Holocaust actually happened and that they're talking rubbish. I don't
think suppressing um Holocaust denialism is the way to snuff it out. And I
think that applies to many conspiracy theories and some some forms of anti Semitism.
I think if people are, you know, I think I'd even go as
far as the ACLU and defend um, you know, American Nazis marching through
Jewish areas. I think where I draw the line, I suppose is when
people are actively encouraging other people to attack Jews, then that that would be
that that that that that that that meets the test of speech, which is,
you know, going to lead to imminent violence or likely to lead to
dominant Okay, So going back to the conspiracy theory that you're saying the rhymes
of anti Semitism, where in the those conspiracy theories anywhere do you hear people
being urged to attack Jews? So right when I'm not and I'm not saying
you should be banned from saying them, James, And I'm not saying it
meets the standard in Brandenburger high which means it's it isn't, it doesn't doesn't.
Why so why even you keep you keep hearing this as an argument to
you know what, why would you even bring up Why would you even in
that case, given that you you don't accept the Semitism as a legit legitimate
criticism of any form of or any meaningful criticism of conspiracy theories, Why did
you bring it up? Why did you think it was so important to mention
it? Because I think it's told me that your Jewish think. I think
I think it is a legitimate criticism and something you should be much more concerned
about than you. But but I think it's across my body clear to be
clear, to be clear, because somehow this hasn't sunk in yet, you
know, I keep repeating it. I don't think it's a reason you shouldn't
be able to set out those conspiracies theories in the public square. I don't
think it's a reason even for demonetizing your podcast. I mean, I think
you should be able to express those conspiracy theories, but I think you should
also have to confront criticisms of them, one of which is they can sound
a bit. That's big of you to be given that you are, you
are the leading representative of the leading free speech organization in the country. So
I'm I'm glad to have your permission to engage in go on engaging in these
services. Do you think I'm trying to expirac I'm trying to advocate that you
should be bad. I'm not well. I listeners and listeners are are free
to listen to to last week's episode, and they will find you sounding somewhat
less measured and thoughtful this week. When I think so, I think,
I think you've just your last week when you're you know, you've really been
briefed or something to have it to really stick the knife in today part And
I just I was wondering, what the hell is this? This is what
you think, James, isn't it you think I was briefed by someone that
I was. I was prepped by some pretty it was pretty unexpected to me
personally. To No, I didn't think it was clash war. He wouldn't,
he wouldn't. Bother don't really think you sound like you sound a bit
para. I can assure you that no one briefed me. It wasn't good.
It wasn't it wasn't. No one put me up to it. Really,
James, do you really not be the voices in your head told you
to do it. No, it was just m I saw the comment quoted
and thought, I put that to James conversation. I absolutely love this.
Well anyway, Meanwhile, maybe you can look into the history of the creation
of the word anti semitism, because because I know that that back in the
day, anyway, you used to be one of those conservative commentators who deplored
the use of islamophobia rightly recognized and that it was just kind of being used
as a political weapon to close down legitimate criticism. And I think you'll find
that the word anti Semitism was devised in the same way by a similar kind
of activist group. And I think it's very sad to hear somebody who represents
free speech using that word as if it were if it had any any value,
which I don't think it does. You might as well just use racist
or islamophobia or any of those things. Oh well, I think there's one
of the surely one of the key differences between antisemitism and islamophobia is that Islamophobia
is clearly a recent coinage, and I think it was coined, as you
say, to try and inhibit people from criticizing some of the more extreme aspects
of Islamism, like what whereas anti Semitism. You know, is has a
history dating back more than two thousand years, and not the term partner.
The term was coined far more recently than that. And you should look it
up. You should look it up. I mean, look, one of
the things that that Islamophobes criticize is some of the more extreme passages of the
of the Quran and the Hadith. Yeah um, And yet those are branded,
you know, just the mere criticism is branded Islamophobia. In the same
way. Are you familiar with the Talmud? Have you looked into it at
all? Yeah? I know, you know what it is. Have you
what do you know about? What do you know about the Talmud? Uh?
Well, I know, I know it's um, isn't it um?
There's a history of Jewish scholarship which involves studying the Talmud. And don't they
have to recite some aspect of it during the various religious ceremonies and so forth.
Well, there's there's another there's another thing that you might you might want
to research, look at look and look into the Talmud. You might be
surprised some of the things that are said in there some of the some of
the things that you might feel slightly uncomfortable about even defending in the Free Speech
Union. You might think that's a bit iffy, that that that is really
a bit iffy, And I'm you know, just just it's always worth worth
researching these things so you know what you're talking about. Well, but if
you're claiming, James, that anti Semitism, you know, was was a
word invented to deflect legitimate criticism of Judaism. I mean, what happened given
that you don't know, given you don't know the origins of the term,
and you don't know what it was invented to do the term? Well,
I mean, look, look look it up. Look it up. It's
if you look up the Anti Anti Defamation at Anti Defamation League. Isn't some
background reading for you to do it and first lead in eighteen sixty? Okay,
these these these terms are not are not neutral. They're not They're not
produced by lovely nice people because they care about about honest debate, are they?
So they're they're kind of dodgy words for people from the Free Speech Union
to be using. I would say, I will venture to suggest, well,
you'll be pleased to hear James that we are about to publish a pamphlet
at the Free Speech Union attacking both the definition of anti Semitism that is being
foisted on British universities as well as the All Party Parliamentary Group definition of Islamophobia,
attacking both definitions as illegitimate ways of limiting free speech, part clearly on
kempus. So hopefully you'll be you'll be, you'll be happy to read that.
But one more thing you should look into, because I know you should
be on top of these things. Are you aware that the latest anti terror
legislation UM now includes or is planning to include conspiracy theories as a as as
an indication that of terrorist activity, which which which anti terror legislation? I'll
get the I'll get you the documents for next week's episode, but maybe you
can have a look at it, because I think it's it's very, very
worrying, Okay, Suella Bravaman. Who I think people who still kind of
it's trapped in the normally world paradigm, that there are still some good conservatives
might be shocked to see what lovely Suella Bravaman, Law and Order Bratherman is
endorsing because it's very very dodgy. Right, Okay, well I'd be interested
to hear what you're talking about there. Um. Yeah, anyway, should
we should we move on to a culture corner? Yeah? I think we
should. I have seen something since we last spoke. I saw, actually
i've seen two things. I saw Guardians of the Galaxy three. Of course
you did, which because it's just come out. I didn't go and see
it at the cinema. It's just come out on Disney Plus, so I
was able to see it for free and thought it was pretty good, actually
much better than two. Yeah, I thought it was better than two.
Not as good as one, but better than two, and probably the best
Marvel film since end Game. I thought every Marvel film since Endgame, virtually
every Marvel film since Endgame has been terrible. So the Doctor Strange sequel,
Full Love and Thunder, they've all been really disappointed. And as for the
kind of the new the new characters and the Eternals, I mean, just
you know, hopeless. But this was actually pretty good and contained some kind
of sustained, really well choreographed kind of action set pieces which were a joy
to watch. One of which unfolded entirely in slow motion and was almost Peck
and Power esque in its beauty. So yeah, no, I thought it
was pretty good, pretty entertaining. I mean, it's slightly overindulgent at times.
There's a talking dog, for instance, a dog with some kind of
voice box attached which enables it to kind of communicate with its master, and
I thought that was a step too far. Could have done without the anthropomorphized
animals, though, I guess that's what Rocket is. But there's a sort
of a backstory there, whereas with the dog, he just sort of appeared
out of nowhere. But yeah, it's a little bit too long, so
it's like an hour, two hours and forty minutes or something. But on
the whole I thought almost a return to form for the MCU. So that
was a pleasant surprise. Really enjoyed it. Also watched a film called River
Wild, which the old one, No, not the River Wild. I
thought it was going to be a remake or a rebuilt of I think a
remake you'd call it of the River Wild, but no, it's actually it
was sort of similar, you know. It was about a kind of feisty,
indominitable, spirited woman who ends up vanquishing the bad guys on a river,
you know, whilst navigating white water. So sort of like Deliverance but
with a chick. Basically, yeah, yeah, implausible check yeah yeah yeah
kind of yeah, twenty first century version of Deliverance. But it was you
know, it was okay, it was okay. I didn't think it was
as good as the first one. Who was the Who was the woman?
I can't remember, no one I'd ever heard of? Right? Um?
And apart from that, I watched the final episode of Hijack. Oh and
with it Ris Elba, tell me, go on, tell me what happens.
Spoiler. I won't tell you what happen because it will be it would
be a spoiler for those listeners. Okay, was it? Was it worth
sitting through all those episodes? I think it was delivered? Yeah, I
think it was just about worth it. I'm not going to give it.
I'm not going to give it too much praise, but I thought it was
okay. I thought it was reasonably diverting. I think I'd give it six
and a half out of ten. Right, and did the appen? I
can't even ask you that, come I did they all survive? Or did
they I can't tell you. I can't tell too much of a spoiler anyway,
um and um. Well, and I also watched episode one of season
two of yellow Stones. I've been meaning to, you know, our friend
Mark Miller has been encouraging us to watch yellow Stone for a long time now.
Yes, season two said is the best anything. Season two is the
best. So I finally got around to starting season two. Um so um
and yeah, it looks pretty good and I think I'll get to the about
without any difficulty at all. Okay, Well, talking of Mark Miller,
I have had the exclusive preview of his new series, The Chosen One,
which was a comic series he published under the title American Jesus. And it's
about well, more or less, it's about the second Coming. It's about
this that Jesus is reborn. It's a bit like the anti Omen so instead
of having be about the Antichrist, who also I believe appears in this as
well at some stage, it's about it's about Jesus coming back and in an
unlikely you know, I mean to a similar situation where he's got a single
mum m, well, I suppose that wasn't technically what happened in the Bible
was that there was Joseph was still around. But but anyway, Jesus,
Jesus is born, and obviously the forces of darkness are out to track him
down and take him out, and so they're always on the run. And
but it's set in it's setting, well, the first few episodes is set
in the Baja California, and um, it's interesting setting, really charmingly acted.
They've got it's got a sort of slight stand by me me or um,
what's the recent one, the Spooky Kids thing on Netflix, you know,
the Stranger Things. It's got a sort of slight stranger Things vibe to
it, like likable, likable gang of kids. The kid playing the Jesus
character is really good. The Mexican setting is interesting. I think it's gonna
be I think it's gonna be good. It's on Netflix very mid August.
I think, right, okay, it's okay, Yeah, but I've got
to watch a few more episodes bef you know, any reviewing it. I
am going to review it. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Well
it's not my shom at the time of year anyway, but but now I
would anyway, I think it's I've been really looking at I think American Jesus
is probably Miller's masterpiece. I don't know why. It just it just goes
down all the dealing poor rabbit holes apart from anything else. Okay, okay,
I'll look forward to that. I downloaded the Screwtape Letters audio book.
I thought i'd try and understand this idea of kind of you know, spiritual
warfare between good and evil taking place kind of just beneath the surface of things.
So, um, yeah, I'm looking forward to listening to that.
Well, I've got experience about CS leaders. I think he I think his
Mere Christianity is a fantastic piece of Christian apologetics and a very good, good
entry point explaining why the more that are in built moral conscience shows that there
is there is a God, and there is a God and so on.
Um. I thought his essay on the Psalms was really poor. Um.
I think some of his writing is quite weak, but some of his ideas
are good. Um. So so yeah, I've got mixed mixed feelings about
CS. Just tell you what they're just before we go. I finally got
round to finishing Anna Corona and and so there's a there's a bit where spoiler
alert, she dies, But there's about fifty more pages after that, and
everyone knows I think pretty much that Anna Corona is about to doom a doom
love affair. And they say to themselves, or I certainly did, Why
would I want to read this book when I know it's going to end end
unhappily? And why should I be put through the mill, put through the
ringer, only to have for it all to end end grimly? But what
Tolstory very cleverly does is he has this sort of parallel well is it a
main plot or is possibly a subplot about this character called Yaven and and Telstory
being being a Christian figure, um towards the end the final fifty pages that
their significance really is about Lieven having search for meaning in his life finally gets
God, gets gets the Christian message and under dance that this is what gives
you a meaningful life. And I thought it was brilliant. Imagine if I
read it when I was younger, I might have thought, what's all this
crazy Christian stuff doing? You know, in a love story, a doom
love story? But now I think just toll Story really really got it Tolstoy
was was was clearly quite red pilled. There's there's a scene also in the
end of the book where Russia is hot for war. Is somewhere some something
to do with their fellow Slavs being abused and somewhere or other, so they're
all going off to war. And and Lievin is, who is the toll
story character in the book, is is very skeptical about these these popular these
alleged popular moods were whipped up by the media. He thinks it's all it's
all nonsense. He's suspicious of philosophy. I mentioned in an earlier London calling
that he's also suspicious about the very notion of education and providing medical medical care
for the for the for the pence, because you believe is that actually they're
they're much better looking after themselves. They did it, white white, white
white, embrace dodge modern medicine anyway. Um, brilliant book, best novel
I've ever read, and highly recommended. Okay, it sounds better than um
Starbuck No Red Bull book, one of the Starbuck Chronicles by Bernard Corner,
which a little disappointing so far. Yeah, I'll read that next game.
Are you reading it or listening to it. I read it, I read
it, wife, Wife listened to audiobook and said the experience was fantastic,
that it's really good at having it. Okay, all right, cool,
okay, all ye, James, okay, bye bye. This is London.
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