WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.280 Who's ever the chairperson of the SEC. Whatever the regulations are will follow. 2 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:10.640 When we started, it was when Clayton was the chairperson of the SEC right 3 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.480 and he was a Trump appointee and essentially he was the one who came out 4 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:20.120 with the special Purpose Broker Dealer release. So you know, whatever the regulators 5 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:23.679 say, our whole position has been will follow it. That's why it has 6 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:30.679 taken us arguably a long time, because regulations weren't clear, and you know, 7 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:35.640 you have to work with the powers that you know, the actual regulators 8 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:39.320 in order to make sure you obtain the licenses if your belief is that's the 9 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:49.439 way to do a compliant This content is brought to you by Uphold, which 10 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:53.560 is a great crypto platform that I've been using since twenty eighteen. Uphold has 11 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:57.320 all the top cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin and all the all coins. In fact, 12 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.240 they have two hundred and sixty plus cryptocurrencies on their platform. You can also 13 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:06.359 trade precious metals, stable coins, and thirty seven fiat currencies. In addition, 14 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:11.000 they are available in over one hundred and fifty countries and this platform is 15 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:15.000 fully reserved. They do audits so you can trust that your funds are safe 16 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:18.719 no commingling, no lending out your funds. If you'd like to learn more 17 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:23.560 about Uphold, please visit the link in the description. Welcome to the Thinking 18 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:27.239 Crypto podcast. You're home for cryptocurrency news and interviews. With me today is 19 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:32.640 Aaron Kaplan, who's the co CEO and co founder of Prometheum. Eron. 20 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:36.400 It's great to have you on. Hey, Tony, thank you for having 21 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:41.159 me so erin big news around Prometheum. There is a big launch taking place. 22 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.879 I have a lot of questions for you about your services and much more. 23 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.159 But before we get to Prometheum, tell us about yourself. Where you're 24 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:53.400 from and what's your professional background. So I am from New York, I 25 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.799 grew up in Westchester. My backgrounds in financial services, and I am a 26 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:06.439 class trained as a securities attorney, which was obviously very interesting and useful in 27 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.680 doing what we're doing. And since essentially, I believe twenty thirteen, i'd 28 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:16.159 focused my securities practice the application of distributed ALLGRIC technology to the securities industry and 29 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:21.639 really the related regulatory issues now. At the time when we first started, 30 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:28.280 and people weren't necessarily considering the sort of the crossover between what at the time 31 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:32.599 was bitcoin then became virtual currency, and then became sort of smart contract enabled 32 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:38.039 network tokens, then just expanded from there, and they weren't considering the implications 33 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:45.879 from sort of a regulatory standpoint. But essentially, since we got into the 34 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:50.159 space, since reading the Biitcoy white paper, you know, and really believing 35 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:57.800 in the technology, we had focused on sort of the best way or a 36 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.919 proper way to allow for participation, meaning trading clear and set on the custody 37 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:07.280 of the general public in the space. And we initially wrote a no action 38 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:14.479 letter to the SEC in April twenty fourteen asking them to allow us to transact 39 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:19.199 bitcoin as a security through an ATS and a brokerage account. And the whole 40 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.039 idea there was that the federal securities laws provided an excellent framework to allow for 41 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.120 participation in the space that would allow the general public to be properly protected. 42 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.599 So from there that's where we started, and we went down a deep rabbit 43 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:38.159 hole. And what was your first encounter with bitcoin? I'm almost curious about 44 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:44.360 folks history and story about when they first encountered bitcoin and what was the aha 45 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:50.599 moment for them, you know, when reading about reading the white paper and 46 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.280 going into it and listen, I'm a security attorney, I'm not an engineer. 47 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:59.000 You know, anybody who doesn't have a deep engineering background or even had, 48 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:02.039 you know, as major you could only go so far, but you 49 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:10.639 could understand that there was a lot of potential to innovate how data and value 50 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:16.120 was transacting on a blockchain as the basis for that. But essentially so after 51 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:20.199 reading that, it was sort of aha moment, like, oh, this 52 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:27.120 is going to change how securities operate. Because the thought was is like securities, 53 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.040 if you look at the history of security securities are initial paper securities, 54 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:36.439 make certificates, they transfer like eventually they they transitioned to electronic sort of trading, 55 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:43.040 which is basically a electronic representation of a physical certificate, but it's still 56 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:46.079 based on the physical certificates. But the next generation beyond that is to be 57 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:50.920 pure digital, meaning having the asset issued on chain and transferred on chain and 58 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:56.839 overall in the security space, the idea is sort of like the Holy Grail 59 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:00.439 is a tady settlement. It t zero. It just eliminates a lot of 60 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:05.759 counterparty risks. So the thought process was by integrating the benefits of distributed architectures 61 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:11.160 into market infrastructure, what would you what you could achieve is really the holy 62 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.560 Grail of markets, meaning you know, insanitaneous settlement and basically the ability to 63 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:20.000 trade clear settling custody on a blockchain was the goal when we started the company, 64 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.000 and as I mentioned before, we wrote our first no action letter to 65 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:29.399 the SEC in twenty fourteen. You know, it was a little bit progressive 66 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:33.759 in its thought and nothing became of it. But since then, you know, 67 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:41.720 we I focused my practice in the space, and as the different technologies 68 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:45.839 developed, as you had a smart contract enabled network tokens come out, you 69 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.759 know, and initially with the ico boom and the like, there was a 70 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:54.920 conflation between the what I saw as an opportunity between the technologies attendant to virtual 71 00:05:54.959 --> 00:06:00.480 currencies and sort of how markets worked. So while I'm not the biggest bitcoin 72 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:06.279 person, I do believe in a lot of the smart contract based network tokens 73 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:13.000 and their viability as a means of processing data, and think that the conflation 74 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.680 between those technologies and markets is really the future of where everything's going. Now. 75 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:21.879 Giving your securities background, and we see the talks of tokenization and putting 76 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:27.759 stocks, bonds of real estate on the blockchain and the ability to do that 77 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:33.480 is because of smart contract technology. What is your outlook for the future is 78 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:39.240 of the future of securities. You know, you have a timeline for when 79 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.279 we see all these things token as you have like Larry Finger at black Rock 80 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.800 talking about it saying it's a future of finance, and is Prometheum trying to 81 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:53.879 position itself to be able to meet the market needs there. So prometheum is 82 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:59.959 sort of interesting because it allows for potential disruption into different parts of the market. 83 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:06.199 So on the virtual currency side, the idea there is just basically what 84 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:12.120 people call virtual currency and everything besides for bitcoin, arguably we view as an 85 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:16.959 investment contract that is a digital asset security and basically you're able to treat and 86 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:21.959 trade it, treat and trade clear selling custody of that asset by providing the 87 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:26.319 benefits of the feral security as law as such that investors are protected. So 88 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:29.360 that's one side of the market. But what you're referring to on the other 89 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:31.639 side, which I think is like a big driver of future growth, is 90 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:38.160 this tokenization idea. So when you think about tokenization, now there's fringe cases, 91 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.279 so it says not one hundred percent, but tokenization is arguably security is 92 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:46.000 out of blockchain. And when you see people like Larry Fakett, you see 93 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:50.040 people, you know, the big banks talking about how tokenization, meaning security 94 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:54.319 is out of blockchain, is essentially a billion dollar market. I know that's 95 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:57.360 not a word, but you know they say crazy numbers. You know you're 96 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:03.839 talking. They're talking about trillions of dollars, right, And that is I 97 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.680 think which will drive what will drive a lot of the future growth, the 98 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:13.560 institutional adoption, the institutional participation, because it really provides a mechanism by which 99 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.800 institutions could arguably generate compliant revenues in the space. If they can issue a 100 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:24.319 security on chain, they know it's regulated, there's no regulatory compliance issues, 101 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.920 and basically now they can sort of transition their business away from traditional means of 102 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.320 sort of creation of securities, trading, clear sellment, custody to on chain 103 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.200 activity and now that they can generate revenue from it, there's significant more and 104 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:41.960 more significantly more interest. But if you take it a step further, like 105 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.000 in people talk about tokenization, but in order for tokenization to be empowered, 106 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:50.840 tokenization is the creation of the asset, but you need to be able to 107 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.039 do things with those assets thereafter. Yeah, I mean, if you can't 108 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.440 do anything, it's a liquid there's no public market trading, there's really no 109 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:03.360 activity there, right, So what Promethium does is basically everything after the asset 110 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:09.279 is issued. We then provide a public market infrastructure, meaning an ATS for 111 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.679 digital ASEID securities that can publicly trade digital assets digital asset securities, I should 112 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.559 say, which means that there's depth of market, there's liquidity, it's real 113 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:20.960 trading, right. But in order for that to occur, like you can't 114 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.639 have public market trading unless you could also do what occurs after the trade is 115 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:28.840 made, meaning clearance, settlement, and custody, and we've through our special 116 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:33.279 purpose broker dealer are have the licenses and the authority to do those activities. 117 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:41.519 So basically, in that sense, we can provide a sort of a infrastructure 118 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:46.240 that will allow tokenization to take flight actually meet its potential because the asset could 119 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:48.559 be created and then it can actually be publicly traded, cleared, settling, 120 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:52.480 custody, meaning everything else that has to occur to really allow tokenization as a 121 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:58.120 whole to move forward, which we're very excited for. And you guys have 122 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.720 a FINRA appro to clear and settle digital asset security trades along with custody. 123 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.519 And then the big news, which folks you're going to hear about, is 124 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.519 the Ethereum custody launch. Tell us about the FINRA approvals and the Ethereum custody 125 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:20.399 launch. So I believe it was in December Prometheum Capital, which is our 126 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.120 special purpose broker dealer, received the approval to clear and settle digital acid securities. 127 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.519 So when you think about markets, you have a trading venue and you 128 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.919 have a custodial venue, and what occurs in between, and this is a 129 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:37.159 very simplistic explanation, is the clearance at settlement. So we had the ability. 130 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:39.759 I think we received the license for our ATS with Prometheum ATS and twenty 131 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:45.159 twenty one, and we received our special purpose broker dealer in May twenty twenty 132 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:48.240 three, I believe. But in order to do that piece in between clear 133 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:54.960 and settle and really have the ecosystem as a whole makes sense, you really 134 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.080 had to have that final approval. And once we receive that, now basically 135 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:05.919 we have the approval to have an end to end blockchain enabled ecosystem for digital 136 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:11.080 asset securities now and really overall that's the last approval pro medium needed before we 137 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:16.159 could launch this whole ecosystem and really service the entire life cycle of the trade. 138 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.440 Now, one thing that's it's a little bit nuanced, but it's important 139 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.360 understand, is that our license are for digital asset securities. A digital asset 140 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:30.240 security is both what a lot of people would consider virtual currency ex. Bitcoin, 141 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:35.240 which we basically consider investment contracts, which is a qualification type of security, 142 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.519 but it also includes any sort of thirty three Act security, which includes 143 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:45.519 equity, debt option, destructured products. And that's that tokenization side. So 144 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:50.519 you could service both sides there. You could service both the virtual currency which 145 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.799 we view as investment contract digital a SID securities, but also of any sort 146 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.679 of security issued and transferred on a blockchain, which is basically the entire tokenization 147 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.720 universe. So, uh, it's really expansive and I think that that is 148 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:07.000 why I think we have the potential to disrupt a lot of sort of different 149 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.679 parts of the market. Now, you mentioned and Aaron, we're going to 150 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:13.200 talk a bit about this. You know, you mentioned digital asset securities. 151 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.960 A lot of people in the crypto industry disagree with you on that, right, 152 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.720 but your Etheroereum custody launch. Are you treating etherorem as a security? 153 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:26.679 Are you viewing as a security or commodities is similar to bitcoin? So you 154 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.120 know, it's an important question, and honestly we're super excited to roll out 155 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:37.720 our Theorem custody launch because it's a pivotal moment not only for Prometheum, but 156 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.480 I think for the broader industry. So as I mentioned the expansive nature of 157 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:48.120 our Digital Aid Securities license, and that basically means we can handle investment contracts 158 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:54.159 which are digital acid securities, and we can offer services that are internal to 159 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.600 assets that our internal compliance seems confidences security and basically we are confident in this 160 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:05.159 case and for purposely for these purposes we started with Ethereum now but looking at 161 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:09.679 the bigger picture, like Promethium, in some senses, doing something that's never 162 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.519 been done before, and by doing with e the most popular token besides for 163 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:18.759 bitcoin, which is obviously bitcoin is a security, as the SEC and other 164 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.120 regulated entities have said. But basically what we do is we hope to establish 165 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.679 that the existing federal securities laws are applicable to most digital assets and investors can 166 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:33.200 safely engage with them under existing regulatory frameworks and sort of this is significant for 167 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.600 the I'm sorry, go ahead. There's a lot of like, no, 168 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:41.320 no, you mentioned bitcoin as a security, but I thought even answer is 169 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:43.360 not a security. Oh okay, Bitcoin's the only one that's not a security. 170 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.840 But like the and then it's like the question of what happens with everything 171 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:52.840 else? Right, But the origination and the inception of bitcoin is followed a 172 00:13:52.879 --> 00:14:01.399 different model than almost every other asset thereafter, So I think that's a distinguishing 173 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:11.039 point. And while in theory you could technically and from a operational standpoint handle 174 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:16.240 bitcoin, whatever the regulators say, we try to follow. So everything else 175 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.120 besides for that is potentially open business. So Aaron, I mean, I 176 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:24.879 mean, I think it in a sense because you have this license, regardless 177 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.960 of if something's at security or not, you have the ability to custody securities. 178 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.600 So right now, you could list a lot of cryptocurrencies if you want, 179 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.080 right because you have to license. Am I Is that correct? Am 180 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:39.720 I off base? There? Yeah? No, We view the majority of 181 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.799 the highest volume of traded assets as digital asset. Security is when it comes 182 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.480 to virtual currency, and honestly, we intend to make them available as quickly 183 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.879 as possible, because you want to be able to support the largest and most 184 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.320 liquid tokens. And we start off with number two. And while our initial 185 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:58.320 focus is on this investment contract digital assets what some people would say crypto, 186 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.559 the next thing, the next step which we really think will drive future growth, 187 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.559 is the tokenization side. And as I mentioned before, that basically means 188 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:11.080 securities issued and transfer out of the blockchain. And you know, while as 189 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:16.240 you mentioned before with Larry Fink, there's a lot of discussion about tokenization being 190 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.080 the next big thing in finance, you know, at quadrillion dollar market, 191 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.559 that's actually a real term. But essentially in order for that market to be 192 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.240 empowered, you need that infrastructure, and that's the infrastructure we've created. So 193 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.679 basically we believe that we can empower that that discussion that mister Fike had mentioned, 194 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.759 what are your thoughts on You know, you mentioned, like you did, 195 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:39.039 number two, which is e theorem, And as you go down that 196 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.840 list, you have for example, XRP and you had that ruling in the 197 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:48.320 case. We know the case between the sec and Ripple is not fully concluded. 198 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.279 That's still I think there's a trial in April, but the judge rule 199 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:56.639 that XRP intrinsically is not a security depends on the scenario of how it's offered 200 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:02.480 up. Would Prometheum be looking to XRP as an asset that you would support, 201 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:11.840 It would depend how the measure played out in court. Obviously there's a 202 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.639 lot going on in the courts and that will play out in time. But 203 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:22.360 the way we viewed it is that what you're trying to do is just provide 204 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:29.440 an established an ecosystem, under established regulatory framework to allow the public to participate 205 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.519 in the space. And what we saw on the events historically, particularly you 206 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.480 know we're moving away from twenty twenty two, but essentially you need to have 207 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:42.559 frameworks, You need to have oversight, need to have the ongoing reporting requirements, 208 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:47.399 and you need to make sure that you know when people participate in the 209 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:51.440 space, they are able to do so, and that they're going to make 210 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:56.799 or lose money based on their own investment decisions and not because of the mouthfeasance 211 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:02.360 of the underlying platform. So I feel like it provides just a mechanism by 212 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.359 which that could occur. And it's not easy to get regulated under the securities 213 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:12.079 laws. It's a much harder approach. It's like it's much more difficult because 214 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:18.839 in one sense you're innovating by combining the two in some capacity. But beyond 215 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.240 that, you know, you have to go through the process. You have 216 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:26.319 to go through the regulatory process. And while it's taken us a long time, 217 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:33.640 you know, we started twenty seventeen, I think that by putting in 218 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:38.960 the effort, it'll actually allow for the innovation and markets people have been discussing 219 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:45.480 for discussing about for a long time. Now, are you servicing just primarily 220 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.559 institutions or are you looking to have a retail product? And apologize if I 221 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.799 missed that and do my research, but what's your plans as far as servicing 222 00:17:53.839 --> 00:18:00.000 different types of clients? So our licenses allow for both institutional and retail. 223 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:07.680 The idea is to create a public market trading and custodial infrastructure for digital securities, 224 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.240 because if you think about it, if it's not a public market, 225 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:18.640 it's basically just matching illiquid shares, stocks, tokens, whatever you want to 226 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.960 say between a buyer e seller, and usually what happens in our space when 227 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.920 that occurs in you know, any sort of licensed digital asset security ats right 228 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.440 now, they do trading at one place and they do clearance and settlement in 229 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:34.319 another, and basically they do it offline. It's almost like an OTC trade. 230 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.640 And while that is definitely a step forward from what had occurred previously in 231 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:44.000 that you know, there was no digital asset securities ATS is. The goal 232 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:48.039 for us is real trading, depth of market, actual liquidity, and what 233 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:55.640 that requires is both institutional and retail participation. And what's on your roadmap for 234 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:00.079 twenty twenty four obviously huge launch right with the etherorem custody launch. Anything that 235 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.920 you can tell us that maybe down the line later this year. Yes, 236 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:11.200 first it's a custody eth will be the first asset that we are custodying. 237 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.799 And then after is obviously the adding addigital assets because you want to be able 238 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.839 to support the most liquid and you know, the largest volume tokens. But 239 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:25.599 beyond that, the next step is trading, first institutional and then retail because 240 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:30.440 you want to create this end to end blockchain enabled infrastructure for trading, clear 241 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.039 and settlement and custody of digital asset securities. And when you think about it, 242 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:41.640 it really is it has the potential to change a lot because you're going 243 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.519 to have the potential to change the thoughts or how certain processes are done with 244 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.440 virtual currency, but you also have it or digitalt you know, investment contract, 245 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:56.079 digital asset securities. But on the other side you have traditional markets. 246 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:00.039 And basically the goal of traditional markets I said before the holy is is the 247 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:06.480 Teddy settlement, and uh, you know that's what we've built in some capacity 248 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:14.400 is basically a blockchain enabled infrastructure that integrates the benefits of digital asset architecture into 249 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.480 markets to basically create a better Apple cart. So you have the potential to 250 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:21.279 disrupt both the virtual currency side and the traditional market side, which is pretty 251 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:26.200 cool. M And are you just servicing the US market or are you also 252 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:34.279 servicing countries outside the US? American born and bread so basically would eventually to 253 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:40.240 go global. I mean, so it's it's it's an interesting question if you 254 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:45.400 can think about, like I'm trained in American securities laws, right, our 255 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.079 bread and butter is American securities laws. So the first step, which was 256 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.559 a very high bar, is America. And we've seen a lot of companies 257 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.039 basically say, oh, it can't be dout of America. Let's go to 258 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.000 Singapore, Let's go outside the United States, let's go to the EU, 259 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.319 right, but American capital markets or the leading capital markets of the world. 260 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.599 And I think that's why, beyond that being our expertise, that's the area 261 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.519 we know, and that's the area we wanted to focus on now once we're 262 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.359 able to get everything going here. Obviously, the goal, which has a 263 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.160 lot of possibility to sort of compared to how traditional market's done, is the 264 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:25.920 internationalization of markets. So in theory, if you had different sort of entities 265 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:30.720 or partners licensed under the different securities laws, in arguably common law based countries 266 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.359 and which includes a lot of countries you know, Becau's the UK, because 267 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:41.839 Singapore, it includes Australia. You know it potentially could include places like Japan. 268 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.400 Like what you could have is really an internationalized system. We're able to 269 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.920 connect the buyers and sellers of digital assets under the securities laws, have all 270 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:55.079 the amlksc et cetera. And you know that is that would be awesome. 271 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:03.799 And tell us about your custody platform are is it you're proprietary custodial service or 272 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.400 are you using like an anchorage or a bit go or I don't know, 273 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:14.160 a bny melon or something like that. No, we basically some the Special 274 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.519 Purpose Broker Dealer release came out in Christmas twenty twenty. It was called the 275 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:19.200 Christmas Release, and as soon as that came out, we just put our 276 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:23.359 heads down. Essentially, we were like, Okay, you need to build 277 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:29.759 custom almost everything in order to get approved for this license. I mean you 278 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.720 have to build your own technology, you have to build your own operations, 279 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:34.400 your own compliance procedures, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And 280 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:38.440 the reason for that is it's never been done before. So I don't think 281 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:45.279 you could take a white labeled product and potentially get a lot SPBD license with 282 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.000 that. You have to basically build your technology within the four corners of the 283 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:56.240 regulation to make sure that essentially you are complying with how everything's meant to be, 284 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:03.720 meaning the rules attended to did asset securities under the SPBD release create specific 285 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.680 parameters that you have to meet in every level in order to obtain that license. 286 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.680 And historically what happened in the space is, you know, there were 287 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.759 different standards. It said, oh, you know, everyone built their own 288 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.920 custody solution, right, but you get LICENSERE, you get licensere, whether 289 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.200 it's the new York dfs or whether you get license to different states or in 290 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:27.160 different places, and it became a question of best practices maybe, and how 291 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:32.319 you think these standards and like different standards for custody. And what we saw 292 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:37.720 recently was the introduction to the potential change to the custody rule such that investment 293 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.960 advisors have to hold their assets on the crypto assets on we have of clients 294 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:48.599 at a qualified custodian. Now it gets really technical, but essentially the idea 295 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.960 here is to create high level standards for all custodians to be able to meet 296 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:57.640 in order to ensure that the public is protected. So we had to build 297 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:03.720 our own technology basically and do everything from scratched in order to make sure we 298 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.720 met those standards. And with the etherorem custody you're providing, are you going 299 00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:14.279 to be able to offer staking to your clients or not at this time? 300 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:22.759 Oh, interesting questions. So we've seen regulatory actions which would basically arguably show 301 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:27.880 that staking as a service related activity implicates the securities laws. Right, a 302 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:34.000 lot of the different platforms have had to change or sort of stop doing how 303 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:41.160 they were Staking as a service. We have a lot to do, but 304 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.640 Obviously we've considered the different lines of business under the securities laws. But as 305 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:51.720 I mentioned for twenty twenty four, it's custody, launch, then trading and 306 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:55.119 we could go from there. Got it. Yeah, I know the staking 307 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:59.000 situation is tricky. So Aaron, I'm going to ask you some tough questions 308 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:04.559 because there's it seems to be a dichotomy between what you're doing at Prometheum and 309 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:08.839 the rest of the crypto industry. The rest of the folks have gotten wells 310 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:15.039 notices, We've got lawsuits. You know, you, for example, look 311 00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:18.759 at a lot of these cryptocurrencies as digital acid securities. Other folks do not. 312 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:22.759 There's some of this playing out in the courts. Congress is involved with 313 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:30.680 certain conversations with Chair Againser, and is regulations being worked on. What is 314 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:36.160 your take on the dichotomy and how this is playing out? And and look, 315 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.880 it is an election year. I know this is an act question. 316 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.400 I'm asking you here. Chair Againcer may not be around if Biden loses, 317 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:48.319 right, So what is your take on this entire situation? Hi? Everyone, 318 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.039 part of the interruption. I'm Tony Edward, the founder and host of 319 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:55.559 the Thinking Crypto podcast. I have a huge favor to ask you. If 320 00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:59.960 you haven't subscribed as yet on YouTube or the podcast platforms, hit the subscribe 321 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.559 button, hit the thumbs up button, hit the notification bell on the YouTube 322 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.039 platform and on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts, please leave 323 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.599 a five style rating and review. It supports the podcast. It allows me 324 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.160 to bring great quality content to you. Thank you for your support, and 325 00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.200 I'll let you get back to the content. The whoever's in, who's ever 326 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:25.680 the chairperson of the SEC, whatever the regulations are, will follow. When 327 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:30.400 we started, it was when Clayton was the chairperson of the SEC right and 328 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.079 he was a Trump appointee and essentially he was the one who came out with 329 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:38.799 the special purpose broker Dealer release. So you know, whatever the regulators say, 330 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.200 our whole position has been, will follow it. That's why it has 331 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:49.039 taken us arguably a long time, because it regulations weren't clear, and you 332 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:53.559 know, you have to work with the powers that you know, the actual 333 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.359 regulators in order to make sure you obtain the license is if your belief is, 334 00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:02.839 that's the way to do it compliantly. So you know, who knows 335 00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:06.000 which way the wind blows. But whichever way it blows, you know, 336 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:10.559 it usually carries the plane with it. Aaron, what do you think about 337 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:15.880 under j Clayton would Bill him and Bill Hinman gave a speech. Jake Clayton 338 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:21.279 endorsed it up etherorem not being a security That seems to still be holding up 339 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:26.319 to this day. However, Chair Gencer has not reiterated the statements. I 340 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.480 know you just said, look, it just depends on the way regulations go. 341 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.960 But what are your thoughts on Etheroreum not being a security and Bill Hinman 342 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:42.000 and j Clayton's statements. You know, the Hindman statements were definitely interesting and 343 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:49.799 you can make different arguments about it. I mean, the way we see 344 00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:53.960 it is that if you're going to follow Himan's statement, who's not a commissioner, 345 00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:59.279 you would follow the commissioner's statement before you would follow one of his supportinates 346 00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:03.400 statements. And Chairman Gensler has said basically he views almost you know, the 347 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:11.160 overwhelm majority of digital assets of our securities besides Vicoin. So we understand that 348 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:15.519 that him and statement was out there, but I think it was almost like 349 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:18.480 a head fake, right in some sense, it could be a disservice to 350 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.079 the industry because I believe if you look at the emails in one of the 351 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.160 cases, there's certain people in terms of the internal emails of the SEC are 352 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.279 saying, Hey, what you're saying is outside of what we believe. So 353 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.279 I think if you look at that from that sense, it might have done 354 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:41.240 more harm than good. Sure, yeah, by sort of deaking people out, 355 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:44.680 you made people zag when they should zig, and now they've like doubled 356 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:49.359 and tripled down on certain sort of viewpoints and certain feces that like that weren't 357 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:56.240 necessarily got to play out in the long term. M So it seemed like 358 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.480 Jake Clayton and Bill Hidman and screwed up there with this caused more fusion in 359 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.160 the market. And I don't know if it was Clayton though to my understanding, 360 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.839 I don't know if it was Commissioner Clayton, to my understanding, at 361 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:12.160 least from what the emails say in terms of the public emails from the from 362 00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:17.319 the cases. I don't know if it was a top I don't think it 363 00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:19.799 was a top down director. I think it might have been a viewpoint of 364 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.519 himman that was outside of the consensus viewpoint of the regulator. The thing is, 365 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:30.079 though, I and I've seen videos of Chair Clayton. You know, 366 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.720 at that time he was endorsing. He's like, hey, check, I'll 367 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.720 build him in speech. So I get what you're saying. It just seems 368 00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:44.319 like the Chair stamp this his stamp of approval, despite him not being the 369 00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.160 originator of this. I know there's other talks of conflicts and things like that. 370 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.960 I don't know if you're aware of these things of Bill Hinman and look, 371 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.559 and maybe I've never seen the emails I read him. I like, 372 00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:03.759 you know, like that's not for me to really I don't know, Like 373 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.680 I understand that if there's conflicts, there's conflicts, and that's that's interesting. 374 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:12.000 M Yeah. Look, at the end of the day, I'm hoping we 375 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:17.200 can get clear regulations from Congress. They make the laws right and we can 376 00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:21.480 put some things in order, and the SEC, the CFTC and whoever they 377 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:23.440 do their part and we can move forward. But right now it's just a 378 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:27.200 lot of ambiguity and confusion, and hopefully we can get these things cleared up. 379 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.160 Tony, let me tak it quickly on potential for new regulation. So 380 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.880 there's been a discussion for a long time about regulatory clarity, and it's in 381 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.559 the best interest of everyone. Basically, there's a path, let's just figure 382 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:48.200 it out, let's move forward. But I think people are waiting for a 383 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:55.000 new president and therefore potentially new potential chairperson to the sec or they're waiting for 384 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.960 new legislation, which you know, depending on how you view it. You 385 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:03.240 know, I think McCann has said he's going to was it leave Congress by 386 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:08.039 the end of the year, and which the market with the Market Infrastructure Bill, 387 00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:12.880 So what are we doing. We're waiting at least a fifteen months or 388 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:21.480 so. But I think by actually custodying eth under the securities laws, you're 389 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:25.599 arguably moving the conversation forward. We don't have to wait fifteen eighteen months, 390 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:27.279 however long it takes to get regulatory clarity. And if your view if you 391 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:33.079 see Congress like let's make sure at first they fund the government before they they're 392 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.160 not going to be focusing on crypto legislation before they focus on the government, 393 00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:40.200 And in a split House had Senate, I think we're going to wait for 394 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:44.920 regulatory clarity, if that's your viewpoint. But by what Prometheum is going to 395 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.000 be doing when we custody through OBDA capital eth I think you're moving the conversation 396 00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:53.480 forward. You're basically saying, hey, like, these assets could be handled, 397 00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:59.920 treated, and traded custodied under the securities laws. And while the security 398 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:07.640 laws might not be perfect for certain elements of digital assets, they are arguably 399 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.160 the best framework we've had. They've allowed American capital markets to flourish. It 400 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:15.680 basically allowed us, you know, we have the most vibrant and arguably the 401 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:17.759 best capital markets in the world. And the reason it is is because we 402 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.000 have integrity in our markets. And what we saw in the events of twenty 403 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:23.759 twenty two is when you don't have integrity, you lose the faith of the 404 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:28.400 public. You make institutions not want to participate in the space. So if 405 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:31.519 you're trying to achieve both those goals, basically use the best framework you have. 406 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:37.039 Yeah, And so do you think cryptoregulations are like maybe two years out, 407 00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:43.240 Maybe it's twenty twenty Fybri twenty twenty six. I don't know if you'll 408 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:49.400 see any sort of comprehensive crypto regulation, Like you can make arguments for certain 409 00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:52.720 areas about it. Maybe when it comes to stable coins at those pose different 410 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:58.519 systemic risks than I maybe have been historically considered. But when you look at 411 00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:05.319 the sort of the investment side of digital assets, meaning people who are trading, 412 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:07.279 people who want to custody those assets, and basically the best way to 413 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:12.440 the methodology by which people are sort of interacting with the Web three space, 414 00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:15.519 I don't know if there's a need to recreate the wheel. Like the securities 415 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:20.759 laws have disclosure requirements on the investor protection side, they have fair and early 416 00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:23.920 market requirements which are meant to prevent manipulation on the trading side, and they 417 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:30.200 have specific rules for clear and settlement custom such that customer's assets are segregated from 418 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:34.200 that the institution, not just that. They force those places to go and 419 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:38.880 report and file reports and have ongoing overside and examinations, so you basically ensure 420 00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:44.119 that those standards are being conforced. So I guess my viewpoint there is that 421 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:47.240 I don't think you need to recreate the wheel now. And I have some 422 00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:52.279 awkward questions to ask you, and a lot of these things have been talked 423 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:57.960 about by various folks. I think you testified before Congress. We had congressmen 424 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:04.720 ask you certain questions. I have to ask, and there's talks of Prometheum 425 00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:12.360 having deep ties to the CCP. Do you have relationships with Wang Dong Feng 426 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:16.119 and Long Link Capital and what ties and you know, are they invested in 427 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.599 Prometheum and what can you tell us there the two people you mentioned, I 428 00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:27.760 have no idea who they are. I've never met them, never spoken in 429 00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:34.239 regards to ties to the CCP. I understand that there's concerned there. And 430 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:37.519 the reason that there's concern is because when you're building market infrastructure, it's a 431 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:42.480 matter of national security. So I totally get it, and I believe me 432 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.679 markets are very important to America. When you look at America as opposed to 433 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:52.039 places like China, America's invest the significant part of their liquid capital in markets, 434 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:53.360 so they have a lot of welfare, right, So it's really a 435 00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:00.039 matter of natural security. So in terms of like what happened historically, so 436 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.440 as a young company in I think twenty eighteen, we took an investment from 437 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.440 a company to hash a Hong Kong company called hash Key which was owned as 438 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:14.079 a subsidiary of Wangshong Wan Xia and G I believe, and the idea was 439 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.719 we take an investment and we're going to code develop, and we're going to 440 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:21.079 code develop this market infrastructure. Right. Don't forget this is a different time. 441 00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:24.119 It's before sort of the decoupling between America and China. Right, But 442 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:28.920 you can start to see the way the wind's blowing. Maybe a year later, 443 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.480 and beyond that, we realize that this is not a viable approach. 444 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:38.039 So within a year eighteen months something like that. Thereafter we basically abrogate that 445 00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:42.440 agreement. We basically have a contractual agreement that we're done with this, you're 446 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.440 no longer to do this, and we take everything in house, and not 447 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:50.559 just in house, but everything with American developers, meaning people here on an 448 00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:53.400 H ONEBVS or based in America besides our CTO who's in the island man. 449 00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:58.480 So that's just you know why, we'll qualification and we do everything internally. 450 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:05.480 And beyond that, we are in a position that, you know, this 451 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.159 is what we think is the best way forward, because as you're building something 452 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.719 that becomes more real, it's better for America, it's better for the company, 453 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:15.559 it's better for everything going forward. And then thereafter we basically also start 454 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:22.559 to get letters, meaning we have a inquiry from this SITHIUS, which is 455 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.559 the Committee Foreign Investment in the United States, which is basically meant to make 456 00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:30.320 sure that foreign entities don't have power over companies or sort of you know, 457 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:36.559 important national security type companies. Right, we submit everything they ask. There's 458 00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.559 no issues there, right, not just that we get a full on investigation 459 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:45.039 by the SEC. Right a formal inquiry we submit. We basically submit everything 460 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:51.719 that they ask and that inquiry was closed. So if you look at it, 461 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:57.599 you can make an argument that we're one of the most investigated companies in 462 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.800 that sense to make sure we don't have ties. And if you know, 463 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:04.519 if you extrapolate from there, it'd be interesting to see what other companies were 464 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:08.519 like. So like it's like, I understand the concern. It's definitely a 465 00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:14.039 matter of national security. We take the exact same view. Everything we create 466 00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:15.880 is our own, all our code is our own. We are not dependent 467 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.159 at all. Essentially, Hashkang highki Wangshong I own. I think owned as 468 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:25.199 an equity investor a percentage of the company, not where close to majority, 469 00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:30.280 and basically they have the same rights as every other investor. God, I 470 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:32.360 got it. So you guys, like you said, went through their regulatory 471 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.880 scrutiny. All these things have been checked. I know, like you said, 472 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:44.000 you testified for Congress on these things. So there's no need for people 473 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.599 to be concerned with data and control and so forth. Like you said, 474 00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:51.599 they're not a majority shareholder and so forth. Listen, I firmly agree with 475 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:55.079 that. I mean, you know, when you look at social media, 476 00:37:55.159 --> 00:37:59.840 you can make weird arguments there if you get what I'm saying, and like, 477 00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:05.360 yeah, it's interesting. Now, I believe you answered this question another 478 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.800 podcast. But folks seem to think that you're getting special favor from the SEC, 479 00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:15.039 that maybe you know someone at the SEC, or your friends are Gary 480 00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:19.559 Ginster or something. Another awkward question. But what can you say about that 481 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:25.760 in your relationship with SEC officials. So I saw one of the rumors that 482 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:32.159 I think Chairman Gainster's my uncle. Maybe that was a funny one because we 483 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:37.800 look so alike essentially, but it's actually, like, listen, I get 484 00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:43.119 it. People have been spending a long time trying to figure out how to 485 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:50.880 be compliant under the securities laws, and I think we were in a unique 486 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:54.400 position because it was always our thesis since we started in the first O actually 487 00:38:54.440 --> 00:39:00.519 letter of twenty fourteen basically that the paral securities laws what we thought were the 488 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.280 best framework to regulate the activities in the space, meaning the intermediarrea is a 489 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:07.000 trading, clearance, settlement, custody right to ensure that investors are protected. 490 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:13.079 And when the regulation came out, this SPBD release came out, I believe 491 00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:16.000 in December twenty twenty, we were like, we'll basically called hell yeah, 492 00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:22.320 because we had we were doing the ATS for the goal was public trading through 493 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:25.199 an ATS for digital assets right digital asset securities. But in order for that 494 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:29.760 actually to occur, you need to be able to do what happens after the 495 00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:32.320 trade is made, do clearance, settlement and custody. So when the SPBD 496 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:35.960 release came out, we're like, oh, this is how you do the 497 00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:38.239 rest. This is the regulation by which you do the rest. So it 498 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:43.119 comes out in December twenty twenty and there's a comment period which we submitted a 499 00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:47.760 public comment, and it's adopted into the Federal Register in April twenty twenty one, 500 00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:52.960 which is actually means it's a law in the United States. And we 501 00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:58.559 basically were super excited about this and we put our head down. We basically 502 00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:04.559 spent over year, you know, putting together all the operations, the compliance 503 00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:07.320 procedures, building the technology a specifically laid out in the four quarters of the 504 00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:13.519 regulation, basically doing everything that was necessary to get approved. Right, the 505 00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:19.000 goal was to become the first special purpose broken dealer. Now, during that 506 00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:22.800 time, we did not focus on revenues. We did not focus on generating 507 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:29.880 you know, generating cash from virtual currency related activity because we just didn't think 508 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.480 that was the best way to do it. And other companies, I think 509 00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:38.280 were basically focused on generating revenues. They had operational businesses, they're basically doing 510 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:46.360 those activities, and I don't know if as much energy or effort was focused 511 00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:51.719 on those activities under the security claws. But in light of what happened with 512 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.360 FTX in twenty twenty two, what you see is basically it's like an oh 513 00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:59.800 snap moment, like everyone needed realizes we need in order for this industry move 514 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:02.440 f O or there needs to be you know, oversight, There needs to 515 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:07.800 be proper frameworks. There needs to be a place that allows both institutions to 516 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:10.519 feel comfortable participating in the space from a compliance of bringing per perspective, but 517 00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:15.159 also make sure retail investors don't get left holding the back for sure. Yeah, 518 00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:22.000 and so when we initially started to tell people we were doing this, 519 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:27.760 they would laugh at us. They would literally scoff at us. So I 520 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.159 think by putting our head down and working hard, we put together an application 521 00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:36.760 process that took us, you know, thirteen months. I think it's overall, 522 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:40.400 the approval process between custody clears a settlement took us something like thirty months 523 00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:47.239 now. So I understand that while we have a different viewpoint than most other 524 00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:54.159 people and the way that they've seated historically, the fact that we were first 525 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:59.320 to be approved is I think more representative of the efforts of the team and 526 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.239 not any sort of special treatment. I mean, I've never met or spoken 527 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:07.199 the guy against there. What were your thoughts on the Bitcoin SPOTYTF launch and 528 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:12.599 also the context of that that Grayscale had to win an appeal for this, 529 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:15.639 and you know, we were talking about bitcoin being not a security, but 530 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:20.119 yet the SEC did not want to prove these botytfs. But what are your 531 00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:27.800 thoughts on the launch? So the spot ETF was a good step forward for 532 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:34.920 the industry because it provided a mechanism by which institutions could compliantly generate revenues in 533 00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:39.320 the space, and what we've all want is more institutional participation. We basically 534 00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:43.719 I think everyone, maybe not everyone, but the overall majority of the industry 535 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:49.840 thinks that institutional participation is great. And what we saw in light of the 536 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.519 events of twenty twenty two was a lot of the institutions sort of like who 537 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:55.719 were considering getting the space because they saw the big, big moneys being made. 538 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.239 They were like, we can't do this. They pulled back because aplient 539 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:02.960 to a regulatory perspective, by getting into a new industry, you can't jeopardize 540 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:08.639 your cash cass right, But by issuing the Bitcoin ETF, basically it's a 541 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:14.119 compliant mechanism by which they can participate in the space. But the issue is 542 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:19.079 is, well, it's a step forward. It's it's a twentieth century securities 543 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.519 wrapper around a twenty first century asset. You have a twenty century securities wrapper, 544 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:27.760 mean the ETF which is off chain, around the underlying which is bitcoin, 545 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:31.039 which is a twenty first century asset. Right, And we think the 546 00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:37.079 next step is actually on chain ETFs, on chain structured products, and that'll 547 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:44.000 be much a major step forward because basically what that will allow is significant institutional 548 00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:51.159 participation and also it'll allow for innovative assets to be created. By issuing let's 549 00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:54.960 say a ETF which represents five tokens on chain, you could be a smart 550 00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.000 contract. You can actually see what's in that smart contract, you could prove 551 00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:01.639 the underlying like like it's the next step after that. And the reason that's 552 00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:07.440 important is because that's really what prothum ecosystem empowers. In order for structured products 553 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:10.519 on chain structure products to be empowered, you need to have the ability for 554 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:14.599 there to be a trading venue, for there to be a custodial venue, 555 00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:16.360 and for that asset to be clear and settled, which will actually then allow 556 00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:21.239 for public trading of that asset, right and really empowering it, right, 557 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:24.960 And that's what Promethium is created. So in that essence, I think we 558 00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:29.880 can be a major player in empowering the next generation of ets, meaning on 559 00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:36.360 chain structured products on chains ETFs ETPs. That's fascinating and that's the first time 560 00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.239 I've heard of that ETFs on chain, and so I have a couple of 561 00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:44.320 questions for that. Are you currently working on that product and what's the timeline 562 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:50.840 for the launch of that, so you know, there's so many different things 563 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:53.480 you can do. Like in theory we're talking about, you know, staking 564 00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:58.840 as a service before you're talking about about ETFs. Now we are the infrastructure 565 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:02.840 that can allow for once that product's created, for it to actually be used 566 00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:07.320 in a distributed architecture, actually used as a twenty first century asset, actually 567 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.039 empowered that meaning allowed to be traded, publicly, cleared, settled in custody. 568 00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:20.519 And without giving too much specifics, obviously, we're working with different people 569 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:25.800 out there to ensure that that next generation of ETFs could occur, and I 570 00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:30.360 think that's where we'll see the real innovation. I know you probably can give 571 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:34.800 names, but is it a Wall Street firm? Can you give us that 572 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:45.000 much? It's you know, well, it's there's major asset issuers who are 573 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:49.400 thinking and who are thinking about it differently, Like I think the first step 574 00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:54.719 was this, you know the backlog of these bitcoinytfs, right, and it's 575 00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:59.239 it's a different type of consideration because you could say, well bit coins out 576 00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:01.559 of security, no problem. So if you think about it now, like 577 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:07.639 you have the virtual currency, licensed custodians, state custodians who are custodying the 578 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:13.599 underlying but they can't custody the security, I mean the ETF itself because it's 579 00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:16.320 a security. But once you in theory, if you're able to do it 580 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:22.800 on the Promethea ecosystem, you can custody both. So because if let's look 581 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:23.599 at it this way, Oh go ahead, no, no, no. 582 00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:31.639 If you're treating ethereum as a security and there's a structured product ETF created on 583 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:36.280 top of that, which is also a security, you have to be able 584 00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:39.840 to custy it at a digital asset securities like the license ecosystem. And the 585 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:44.199 reason that's sort of like it's nuanced, but it's important is because the way 586 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:47.440 that the licensing has worked on the security side is that they've bifurkated. I 587 00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:53.159 mean they split traditional securities right, which is basically security is issued via transfer 588 00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:59.679 agent. It's not the best explanation, but the simplest versus digital asset securities 589 00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:02.639 and digital asset security under the legislator or the under the definition of the rule 590 00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:09.199 is basically a security issued and transferred on chain, right, So you basically 591 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:14.760 have to have the licenses specifically for trading, clear and settlement and custody of 592 00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:19.000 digital asset securities. You can't be a traditional clearer firm, you can't be 593 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:22.559 a traditional ATS to be able to do these things. So we have those 594 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:25.800 licenses, which I think that you know with METAATS and prebt capital, which 595 00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:30.760 I think then really allows that empowerment to occur. The question for you, 596 00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:37.239 and this is more in the macro level to your point, like we're using 597 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:40.800 a twenty eeth century wrapper for a twenty first century asset. But is it 598 00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:46.000 a necessary I don't want to use the word evil, but a necessary thing 599 00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:52.480 right now for the adoption of crypto because the wallets and the ease of use 600 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:57.400 for the next billion users is not there yet. It's not simple, it's 601 00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:00.599 a bit intimidating, it's a bit scary, right that we need to go 602 00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:05.039 out kind of boomerang out this way, But it's going to come back to 603 00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:10.320 on chain to be more decentralized. I hope. I'm no, no, 604 00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:15.159 it makes a lot of sense. So like the way that we sort of 605 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:17.440 deal with this, because it's obviously a problem, is that basically when you 606 00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:22.039 come to our ecosystem, right if you want to create an account, you're 607 00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:25.480 creating a brokerage account. Now your brokerage account represents the wallet holdings. Right 608 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:29.280 there is actually, but it's just basically creating a brokerage account, and the 609 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.679 overall majority of American public who's you know, investing, is familiar with brokerage 610 00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:37.639 accounts. Yeah, so it's not like you have to boomerang around. Basically, 611 00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:42.400 you from both a regulatory standpoint and probably from like an operational easy use 612 00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:45.800 standpoint, you have to use these traditional mechanisms in order to make sure you 613 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:49.719 have very email KYC you know, everything that's done, and then basically have 614 00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:52.880 all the information, suitability, et cetera for the customer. Right. But 615 00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:57.159 basically by doing it that way, you eliminate that barrier. You don't say, 616 00:48:57.199 --> 00:48:59.880 oh like like oh you know, there's so many technical requirements, let 617 00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:01.079 me get my ledge or wallet like you know, like let me go figure 618 00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:04.480 out these things that I have no idea what I'm doing. Right, No, 619 00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:06.280 you don't have to do that. You come, you create a broken 620 00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:08.519 account and then you go participate in the space like you went through traditional assets 621 00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:15.480 here. Yeah, and I'm hoping that you know, maybe even in the 622 00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:21.480 next five years to what you're saying, we boomerang back to on chain a 623 00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.760 lot of these products will go back on chain and because I feel I'm kind 624 00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:28.159 of struggling with it. But you know where I believe in cell custody. 625 00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.159 You know, I'm an early adopter, and I believe in what crypto and 626 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:37.039 bitcoint all these things offer. But uh, it's becoming more financialized than by 627 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:42.880 Wall Street and tratify, where it's taking it away from the taking away some 628 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:47.360 of the benefits. So hopefully that could come out. It's very interesting because 629 00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:52.679 it's like there's no free launch in life. So people want institutional participation, 630 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:58.719 they want broader adoption. But in order for that to occur, you have 631 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:02.159 to have certain you know, I don't don't got to say, not compromises, 632 00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:07.800 but certain sort of understanding of how things are done in a more mainstream 633 00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:10.679 sense. Yeah, for sure. And by you know, by integrating and 634 00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:15.760 conflating both those, hopefully you get the benefits of both those worlds. Now, 635 00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:20.519 the BT, the BT, the Big one ETSS are alive. There's 636 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:22.760 talks of an e theorem spot etf. Lowry Fink wants it. I've seen 637 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.159 him talk about it other Wall Street firms as well. Do you think we 638 00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:34.400 see that approval this year it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. 639 00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:40.599 Uh, it's not my area of expertise in terms of like predicting when ETFs 640 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:47.559 get approved, Like the creation of ETFs and you know, origination of products 641 00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:52.639 is a bit different than the infrastructure needed for allow of those sort of products 642 00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:55.239 that then thereafter be able to trade, clear, settle, and custody, 643 00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:04.239 and it'll just we'll see what happens every time it. Overall, though, 644 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:08.920 I think what's important is you're seeing this trend twofold of larger institutional participation, 645 00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:13.599 which is what a lot of people are waiting for. And also a focus 646 00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:21.719 on tokenization and Prometheum's ecosystem through pro ethium ATS and Permetheum capital is really empowers 647 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:24.880 tokenization and will allow those institutions who are looking to participate in the space to 648 00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:29.000 be able to do some things with the ass do something with the assets they 649 00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:31.920 create, and having liquidity, have the public market trading, and having basically 650 00:51:31.960 --> 00:51:37.119 the ability to allow investors both retail institution will participate in that with that asset 651 00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:45.519 really empowers have that token confunction going forward. Let's talk stable coins. We 652 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:49.639 have the largest stable coin in the market is Tether in the United States, 653 00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:52.800 you have circles USD PayPal launching a stable coin, and it seems like everybody 654 00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:55.679 in their grandma is going to launch one, right and they can use it 655 00:51:55.719 --> 00:52:00.920 for different ways. JP Morgan has jpm coin, but that's interbank settlements. 656 00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:07.239 Yeah, and you know there's talks of stable coin regulations. The SEC has 657 00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:12.400 command say the way stable coins are offered. I believe if you're getting interests 658 00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.960 and so forth, is this security offering? What is your thoughts on the 659 00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:21.199 stable coin market? And then how will promethium be supporting different stable coins. 660 00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:30.039 Stable Coins are very, very very interesting and I'm definitely one of the innovative 661 00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:36.760 areas within the space. I think the lessons have been learned related to algorithmic 662 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:42.840 stable coins, but also it's not just that the lessons have been learned. 663 00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:50.320 The potential risk and systemic risk attendant to stable coins has been acknowledged, because 664 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:53.280 what we saw with lunataro is like, okay, like this is separated from 665 00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:57.880 the US market, but the more it's integrated with larger institutions, it could 666 00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:04.599 have a knock on effect. And there's a balance between allowing the innovation to 667 00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:09.639 tend to stable coins to occur while making sure to really limit any sort of 668 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:15.679 systemic risk. And I think that'll be if anywhere there's legislation, you'll probably 669 00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:19.239 see it there, and that'll be in order to sort of play those things 670 00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:24.400 together. Are you guys playing to support stable coins in any way? I 671 00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:30.679 mean even as just as a trading pair or whatever it may be. So 672 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:37.400 we use USD on the cash side, Okay, it's just in our opinion, 673 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:42.760 it's a method by which you don't have necessarily conversions when it comes to 674 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:45.159 fees, by going in and out of the cash side. And what we 675 00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:50.079 saw, like you know, maybe it's like eighteen months ago now, is 676 00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:57.519 when there's a when a stable coin loses its peg, it has potential major 677 00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.440 risks because think about it. You have a customer on your platform. They 678 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.639 think they have ten thousand dollars in cash. Right, the stable coin goes 679 00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:07.039 to eighty two cents on the dollar, and now you have eighty two hundred 680 00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.639 dollars in cash, but you had ten thousand dollars in cash. Whose fault 681 00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:14.960 is that? Is that the platform's fault. It's the holder of the stable 682 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:17.079 coins fault. And if you're on a platform, that just makes you use 683 00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:22.679 stable coins. Now you're taking on the additional risk there. Like we talk 684 00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:27.599 about we talk about wanting this next billion customers to get into the space. 685 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:32.960 If that occurs and you have and everyone's using stable coins and there's a depegging, 686 00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:38.000 you'll lose those billion customers or they'll be harder to get the next billion 687 00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:42.679 customers after that. Yeah. Agree, Yeah, I mean, look, 688 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:44.719 there'sti a lot of things that have to be figured out for sure, And 689 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:49.719 I agree with you there because that would be horrendous to have the average Joe 690 00:54:49.719 --> 00:54:52.079 and Jay you come in to use stable coins and like you said, they're 691 00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:53.920 losing money because of the PEG, and many of them wouldn't even understand what 692 00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:58.599 the hell happen, right, So that way they would think they were scammed. 693 00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:00.960 Yeah, it was a scam, and then they would lose faith in 694 00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:07.079 the space. Yeah. Crypto bull market seems to be heating up for your 695 00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:12.440 cycles playing out. You know, we've seen that bitcoin and cryptos being correlated 696 00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:15.280 to global liquidity stock market. What is your outlook? I don't know if 697 00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:19.559 you can get price predictions for a bigcoin, but you know, what is 698 00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:25.840 your outlook over the next year and a half. It's it's really nice to 699 00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.239 see the attention coming back to the space. I think, you know, 700 00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:36.320 certain pundits had written off the space after you know, the twenty twenty two 701 00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:43.880 cycle. But the reality is there's a lot of technology which could be integrated 702 00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:52.679 into larger markets to basically from a distributed architecture standpoint, which should really allow 703 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:58.079 for continued growth in twenty twenty four. Now I'm specifically referring to tokenization, 704 00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:01.800 and if you believe all the major pundits out there who say tokenization is you 705 00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:07.239 know, the biggest thing that happens when it comes to markets, particularly securities, 706 00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:13.679 you basically will see I think a lot of activity there, which should 707 00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:19.599 you know, create more interest in the overall digital asset market. And again, 708 00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:22.280 I think one of the things that people think about is, Okay, 709 00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:25.079 well, you know, these these major institutions, whether it's Franklin Templeton with 710 00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:30.159 the Benji or SoC Gen with their green bond, are issuing these assets. 711 00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:32.960 They're into the space, they're understanding it, you know, they're participating in 712 00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:37.239 the space. But in order for that really that leap of growth, that 713 00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:40.400 sort of exponential growth to occur, you need to be able to do something 714 00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:45.239 with those assets. Once they're created, and that's the thing the ecosystem permitives 715 00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:49.079 created. We basically created an ecosystem that allows those assets, you know, 716 00:56:49.719 --> 00:56:54.639 basically digital asset securities, which includes tokenization and both digital asset securities that are 717 00:56:54.679 --> 00:57:00.559 investment contracts meeting what people call virtual currency. Besides for Bitcoin to be able 718 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:04.840 to be traded, cleared, settling, custody under the securities laws, which 719 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:09.639 will therefore allow real public markets to develop. So I think that we'll see 720 00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:15.079 continued you know, positivity in the space, particular as institutions now have a 721 00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:20.119 compliant mechanism by which they can participate in the space through ecosystems like Chromethium, 722 00:57:20.199 --> 00:57:23.480 which will then also allow those assets that they create to be empowered thereafter by 723 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:27.280 actually being able to publicly trade them and clear, settle and custody them. 724 00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:31.480 Final question here and now we'll hit the wrap up questions. What are your 725 00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:36.800 thoughts on cbdc's Central bank digital currencies. There's certainly a lot of benefits as 726 00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:43.320 we're heading more into the digital world with tokens and assets running on the blockchain, 727 00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:47.719 but many are concerned with privacy and that these CBDCs could be used by 728 00:57:50.119 --> 00:57:54.119 draconian ideals by certain governments and so forth. I'm not necessarily saying that in 729 00:57:54.119 --> 00:58:00.320 the United States, but what is your thoughts on these things. There's a 730 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:08.360 constant struggle in the cbd C space between the potential innovation and benefits of moving 731 00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:15.000 cash on chain and the potential or willy in consequences. Now, like, 732 00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:22.199 the question is how do you sort of balance the A M L K y 733 00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:27.119 C considerations with the zero knowledge proof considerations. I don't like, it's not 734 00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:30.519 a question of doing anything bad. It's a question like should the government be 735 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.400 able to see every one of your transactions? And no, both counter parties 736 00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:38.440 on that. It's a it's a big consideration, and you know, and 737 00:58:38.599 --> 00:58:43.039 on the other side of that, you say, hey, but like you 738 00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:46.599 can't be creating new ecosystems that are used for you know, funding the various 739 00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:50.800 activities, and how do you prevent that on the on the on the entry 740 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.679 side. So it's a weird balance there, and I think it'll play out. 741 00:58:58.639 --> 00:59:02.079 It's a little bit easier to do a cbd C in my opinion, 742 00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:06.559 when you're you know, a country of five million people, or when you're 743 00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:14.039 an authoritarian country and hopefully that you know in the United States, they'll be 744 00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:19.920 able to find that balance there. Yeah, my hope is that the the 745 00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:23.800 government here in the United States they lean towards more a stable coin and not 746 00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:30.320 necessary a CBDC. Maybe it's adopting USDC, I don't know. But then 747 00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:32.320 there's also systemic risk there because like what happens with the stable court side, 748 00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:37.280 and then like is the government guaranteeing that stable coin with the full faith and 749 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:40.599 credit of the government. It's weird because like the cash is like the USD 750 00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:45.239 is USD, but there's a layer of abstraction which becomes the stable coin, 751 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:49.400 and then there's an entity running that layer of abstraction. But when that thing, 752 00:59:49.519 --> 00:59:52.280 when that asset goes awry, if it's on the government to like backstop, 753 00:59:53.679 --> 00:59:57.320 I don't know, if that it sort of loses its potency in some 754 00:59:57.480 --> 01:00:00.559 sense. Yeah, it's a lot of these things are TBD I know, 755 01:00:00.719 --> 01:00:04.840 like Circle they have t bills as part of the reserves. So I don't 756 01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:07.400 know at this point, it's a lot of speculation, but I think you 757 01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:10.239 bring up some ballid points. Well, we'll have to wait and see. 758 01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:15.360 But my hope is whatever they put together and with out there, it aligns 759 01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:20.159 with the US Constitution at least and maintains some of our rights at least. 760 01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:24.159 All right, I got some wrap up questions here for you. First, 761 01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:30.679 if you could create your own metaverse, what would theme be. Shinichiro Watanabe, 762 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:37.760 he is the the guy, the anime director who directed Cowboy Bebop, 763 01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:40.239 Samurai, Shamplu, Michigo, Hotskin, Space Dandy. It's like, it's 764 01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:45.719 like he's made a lot of He's directing a lot of the like best anime 765 01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:49.000 that are out there, and I think there's different styles and different motifs there. 766 01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:55.199 Samurai Champlou has a edo period Samarai concept with a gangster rap motif, 767 01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:00.320 so it's pretty interesting there. And Cowboy Bebop has both a space cowboy concept 768 01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:05.239 with a like experimental jazz, So you have a lot of different concepts there, 769 01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:07.559 all that seemed to flow together, So that's what I would choose. 770 01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:16.079 And rapid fire questions. Favorite food, pizza, favorite musician or band Mac 771 01:01:16.159 --> 01:01:24.360 Miller, favorite movie that's interesting, King of New York, favorite book, 772 01:01:27.159 --> 01:01:30.519 how to win friends and influence people? I'm joking, no, no, 773 01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:35.199 don Quixote. And when you're not working at Promethium, what are you doing 774 01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:42.679 for fun. As a hobby, I like to do yoga Aaron, thank 775 01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:45.719 you for taking the time. Thank you for going beyond our schedule time. 776 01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:49.239 I appreciate all the answers, insights and so forth. Thank you for joining 777 01:01:49.320 --> 01:02:02.840 me. Thank you for the opportunity. Tony tsk TSK