WEBVTT 1 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:47.079 Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, 2 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:54.359 Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with Martin Willis moving and shaking, Martin, 3 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:57.679 moving and shaking Willis. That's how I'm supposed to say it. Oh, 4 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.320 that's that's good enough. How'd you know I was shaking and you know 5 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.759 I'm moving? Well, I know you're moving, and I know you're shaking 6 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:10.760 with frustration. I am and anger a little bit. It's not shaking because 7 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:14.959 you want to shake your booty out of fun. Like the intention of what 8 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:19.200 moving and shaking is it is you're just in the middle of it. It's 9 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:23.439 rough moving to one of the hardest things ever. Well, it shouldn't take 10 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:26.000 more than a week, and that's what it's taken, even with using a 11 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.200 crew the other day. And I don't know. I'm at a point in 12 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:33.920 my life where I want to simplify and I don't you know, I have 13 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.719 antiques and art and all that stuff. I feel like putting in a great 14 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:42.640 big pile and setting it on fire. I really, I really, I 15 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:45.640 don't have an attachment to things like I used to do anymore. And when 16 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:49.400 you have to move them, yeah, me too. I mean when I 17 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.599 move I will get to a point where I just start trashing box loads of 18 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.560 stuff. Yeah, because I feel you it's freeing. Yeah yeah, and 19 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:04.079 you know I don't like it's not good be too attached to your material goods 20 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:09.680 and stuff. Anyway. Well, it's it's basically not me. It's my 21 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:14.199 uh, my partner that I'm with. She likes to hang on to everything 22 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:22.800 and everything, so it's it's a problem. Yeah yeah. Oh, but 23 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.479 before you get me in trouble, I'm gonna change the topic. Well that's 24 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:30.280 good because I was about to get in trouble maybe listening. So uh, 25 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:35.479 for those of you new to the show, I should mention this every time 26 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:38.960 because I know it causes confusion with people not as familiar with the show, 27 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:45.000 because luckily we're getting new listeners all the time. That at the beginning of 28 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:47.439 the show, this first segment, Martin and I will talk some UFO news 29 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:53.080 and joke around and be a little goofy at times, even though we do 30 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:57.039 cover, you know, credible UFO news and information, but we like to 31 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:02.439 have fun doing it. And then the last two segments are our interview and 32 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:09.400 our guest today is Micah Hanks. He's best known in this Arena for running 33 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:14.080 the podcast The Grailian Report, which has been around for a long time. 34 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:19.680 I mentioned him quite a bit during the program, just because it's his brother 35 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:23.960 that does the opening and closed music, Caleb Hanks. They're both very talented 36 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:29.120 musicians. But Micah does other podcasts and when you hear his voice, you'll 37 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:31.159 hear why. He's got a good radio voice as opposed to my kind of 38 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:38.800 weird voice. But he is a very intelligent person and a great thinker in 39 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.479 this field. So he's always a lot of fun to talk to. So 40 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:46.280 I'm excited for you all to hear this interview. Yeah, I like Micah 41 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:52.400 a lot. He can really he can really, as they say in radio 42 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:54.960 land, burn some tape, Yeah, and he can really do. He's 43 00:03:55.000 --> 00:04:00.360 a talker, but he's very articulate, yes, and poignant. Know it's 44 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:03.919 very good at making some great points. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, 45 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.439 good guy, good dude. So we'll be talking to him in a second, 46 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:13.840 but before we do, let's go ahead and talk about some UFO news. 47 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:17.120 What do you got for us to begin with? My friend, Well, 48 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:23.720 it's not really UFO, but it could have been to like an animal 49 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:26.040 on the ground seeing I mean, I mean it could have been a person 50 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:30.439 watching it. And what I'm going to talk about today is about the US 51 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:36.360 and Russian astronauts that they did an emergency landing. Yeah, and it's it's 52 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:44.199 crazy because they they just they're really really lucky to be alive, you know, 53 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:46.600 when something like that happens. And I never even realized that they had 54 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:51.000 this little safety little thing that could shoot out. So anyway, it was 55 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:58.800 all That's a really important part of the rocket is that the capsule has explosives 56 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:04.839 essentially, and and even build thrusters so they can quickly create space between them 57 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:09.399 and the rockets. So for instance, you know, sometimes rockets blow up 58 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:15.319 on launch, and the purpose is that hopefully they have the time where you 59 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.920 know, it'll trigger and the capsule will be shot into the air and then 60 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:23.480 come down on a parachute and so they won't be hurt when a rocket explodes 61 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.199 or something. But go ahead, yes, well yeah, well anyway, 62 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:30.920 so two, this is the story basically, and I'm reading this off of 63 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:35.720 a Time Times website. So two astronauts from the US and Russia were safe 64 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:44.439 after emergency landing Thursday, and the steps of the Kazakhstan following the failure of 65 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:48.560 a Russian booster rocket carrying them to the International Space Station. They were supposed 66 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:53.839 to dock like six hours later, and they didn't quite make it. So 67 00:05:54.000 --> 00:06:01.000 NASA astronaut Nick Haig and russ Kosmos, I don't know exactly how to say 68 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:09.519 that, Alexievin. I should have read this thoroughly. Oachavin Chin of Russian 69 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:15.160 name lifted off as scheduled at two forty pm. And that's uh, that's 70 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:20.600 a forty g m T. So that was Thursday from the Russia released baknor 71 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:29.600 cosmodome in Kazakhstana top a soy Use booster rocket. I'm probably mispronouncing all that 72 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:34.040 stuff. So you got soy Us right, I get rocket right, wow. 73 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:38.399 And I spend time in Russia, but I don't read Russian, so 74 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:42.000 I don't know, you know, I don't know if it's so this was 75 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:46.600 interesting and there are so many implications. So I'm using my pen. If 76 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:53.120 anybody saw Martin's uh Martin Days podcast UFO, which he also puts on YouTube, 77 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.480 he doesn't live on YouTube, and I did the news on his show, 78 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:00.839 and so I was using my rocket pen which has the Saturn five on 79 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:06.959 it that I got from the US Space Center over but in Alabama and where 80 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:10.720 they have a giant so you could see videos. I've got videos where we 81 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.720 had dinner under this giant Saturn five. So I'm gonna use this as a 82 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:15.360 demonstration. You can't see this, but I like to play with my little 83 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:23.879 rocket pen. So but essentially, the rocket launched and they started feeling weightless. 84 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:29.160 So they're like, I think the rocket is falling back to the planet 85 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:33.199 and yeah, and sure enough it was. So they're like, whoa, 86 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:38.639 We're not supposed to feel weightless. They're supposed to fill actually some magag's from 87 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.560 Yeah, the rocket pushing them up into space at its extremely fat speeds. 88 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:50.279 So sure enough, the rocket had failed, so they ejected and were able 89 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:55.600 to then float back down to the Earth. I guess one thing that the 90 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:01.839 rocket was at a severe angle, so they were experiencing g which is really 91 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.720 high. And it's it's incredible that they stayed conscious because at least I haven't 92 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.680 heard that they were unconscious, but maybe we haven't heard the full story yet. 93 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:13.800 But typically that'll make someone go unconscious, it would me, you know, 94 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.199 so, but they landed and they were fine, thank goodness. But 95 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.480 here's the issue. The issue is as I've covered, like even in a 96 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.839 recent story where I talked about the Dragon Capsule and the Boeing Starliner Dragon Capsules 97 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:35.919 SpaceX. These are the next spaceships to take humans into the especially Americans into 98 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.759 space, which is important because right now we have to rely on the Russians 99 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:46.360 to take us to the ISS and bring us back our NASA astronauts. But 100 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.320 our contract ends next year, but they're the only game in town. So 101 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.120 and you know, there's even been a more recent delay, so SpaceX and 102 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:01.320 Boeing aren't going to be ready to you know, probably late next year to 103 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:09.240 take people to the ISS. So there's a problem because now we've got three 104 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.559 astronauts up there. There's actually a German, a Russian, and an American 105 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.960 on the ISS, but they can't come home. They're supposed to come home 106 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:22.679 on the next sty use, which of course was this one, and there's 107 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.720 not another one scheduled towards the end of the year. However, we really 108 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:31.559 don't know when the next rocket will go up there because when an incident like 109 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.840 this happens, they have to determine exactly what happened and how to make sure 110 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:41.080 it doesn't happen, and that's a process that can take a very long time. 111 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:46.240 So the Russian rockets are going to be grounded until they can figure this 112 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.320 out, which maybe they say, if it's something simple, you know, 113 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.840 hopefully it'll only be a couple months for them to figure it out, But 114 00:09:54.120 --> 00:10:00.759 rarely with rocket issues like this, is it something simple. So our astronutes 115 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:07.519 might be stuck up there. And even worse, there is an escape capsule 116 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:13.000 on the ISS so they could take that and come home, and we might 117 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:18.240 need to do that, but it's important that there people be on the ISS 118 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:26.720 for maintenance. So if we don't have anybody on the ISS it, you 119 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:33.440 know, it throws the budgeting and everything into flux into to you know, 120 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.759 nobody knows for sure, and then we have to reevaluate, and this situation 121 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:43.320 could literally kill the ISS. It could be determined that it's not worth the 122 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:50.120 effort and the cost to put people back on the ISSU. So we're just 123 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.559 going to focus on other efforts and and ditch the ISS Because it's about they're 124 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.240 talking about they're definitely going to retire it in twenty twenty five, and there 125 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.039 has been discussed on what to do with it, so it's an interesting situation 126 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:09.840 that we're put in now. Is there any shortage of supplies up there? 127 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:11.919 I mean there, they must be pretty well stocked, I would think, 128 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:16.600 Yeah, I think they prepared. Yeah, I think they're good from what 129 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.960 I understand, are good till early next year. Still, I would not 130 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.240 want to be up there with them. Must be terrible feeling, mm hmm, 131 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:31.080 yeah, it's uh, yeah, it's unfortunate. I think they're fine. 132 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.159 I mean I think that they it might be a little nervous. I 133 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.039 mean, one of the things they're going to have to do if they have 134 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.639 to take that escape capsule is they're going to have to go through it with 135 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.279 a fine tip comb and you know, make sure that it's ready to go, 136 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:48.559 that it's you know safe, and they'll have to go examine it and 137 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.840 put it through its paces to you know, their safety inspection and everything, 138 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.559 and of course if they find an issue, then that will be really scary. 139 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:01.759 So it seems like they something this important that they would have some type 140 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:07.360 of backup, you know, just to sort well that capsule is, Yeah, 141 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:13.240 their backup, but I mean you know like another you know, another 142 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:18.679 contract, like redundant backups type of thing. Yeah, oh, another contract 143 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:20.720 to get up there too, I know, and you know, with our 144 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:26.960 current relationship with Russia that that's been an issue and Russia wants to change their 145 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.840 changing their whole thing, because they were the big game getting rockets and satellites 146 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:37.320 up there. But now that other companies, especially SpaceX, has done so 147 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:41.720 well that they've taken over the market, and so Russia is having to really 148 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:48.159 re examine and reprioritize their space program. And in fact, they were before 149 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:52.799 we were focused on going back to the Moon. They were, which is 150 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.720 part of what influenced us. Also, even though you don't hear much about 151 00:12:56.039 --> 00:13:01.399 the political side of things, there was a you know, uh, international 152 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.799 political motivation for us to go back to the moon too, because China has 153 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:11.679 been focused on getting back to the Moon and then so did Russia's started and 154 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:18.519 now we're in the mix. So yeah, it's really interesting, scary stuff, 155 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.559 wild, wild stuff. So but you know, just just one more 156 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:28.960 thing about this. So this this capsule came back at a really hard angle 157 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:33.600 and uh, you know, it was it was almost like they were lucky 158 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:39.000 to survive. You know, there's a actually there's a film, uh you 159 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.039 know showing of them. You know, getting them out of the capsule in 160 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:45.840 the middle of in the middle of the desert. But boy, that is 161 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.399 really something. Yeah, yeah, it's scary stuff. I mean, these 162 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:54.360 people are so brave, they really are, no and they know better than 163 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:58.559 us, you know, just how dangerous what they're doing is. So yeah, 164 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:03.559 it's amazing stuff. I I personally, you know, when I was 165 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:05.600 younger, I thought, hell, yeah, I do it. But now 166 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:11.480 that I'm older, and I think, especially when you have uh well, 167 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:13.759 there's a lot of different factors that get into it. Yeah, there's I 168 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:18.200 just couldn't do it. First of all, I don't think I can stand 169 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.159 you know, the high g forces anymore. I used to be like a 170 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:28.960 oh yeah, you know, I used to love like what did you know 171 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:33.840 you go to a music park and you ride as I used to love them, 172 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.120 But now I can't really take them anymore, let alone, you know, 173 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.240 understanding that, hey, you could blow up, this could be it. 174 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:46.399 This is some really crazy stuff. Yeah yeah, yeah, So other 175 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.039 news. Want to get into some other news here? Sure, what you 176 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.559 got. There's a couple of things that I want to talk about. I 177 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:58.480 guess the first thing, just because it's going to become such a big deal. 178 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:00.960 And I don't know if you and I have talked about this, but 179 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:05.919 I do a UFO live every Thursday at six pm on YouTube where I talk 180 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:11.759 about UFO news, and I've talked about this in the past, but this 181 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:18.240 has come up more recently because now there is a story in our technique about 182 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:22.080 to the Stars. You know, this group started by Tom DeLong that includes 183 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:30.279 intelligence people and it also includes the former chief of what we recently found out 184 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:35.720 was a government UFO program that had been running for many years that there there 185 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.679 is an SEC filing that came out that showed there's thirty seven million dollars behind 186 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:46.440 that in debt, and so people have been freaking out about that. Now, 187 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:52.240 if you look further into the filing, it does say this is due 188 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:58.440 to stock compensation. So I don't think it's real money, you know. 189 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.320 I think in other words, that they generate, you know, when they 190 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:07.000 become public, they generate a certain amount of stock and so on paper that 191 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.759 their stock is worth x amount. Like let's say you have one hundred shares 192 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:15.320 at you know, one hundred dollars each, that would determine you know, 193 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.000 what that is and if you don't haven't sold all those shares, then you're 194 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:22.519 in the red. And I think that's what it's. It's a similar sort 195 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:27.480 of thing. I'm not a lawyer and or an accountant, and some other 196 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:34.120 accountants have said that that is kind of what it is on our Open Mind's 197 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:41.320 UFO group. But it still is an issue because it does indicate, and 198 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:48.600 it even says this in the SSE filing that they might not be able to 199 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.279 exist. They're going to try to continue for a year, but this might 200 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:59.840 be an issue that tanks the company essentially. Well, you would think that 201 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:06.519 would be at least addressing this. Has anything come out from their publicists, 202 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.759 you know, answering to what this was going on? No, And you 203 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.599 know what, they're not a very proactive when it comes to communication, which 204 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:21.519 I think they should be because this actually has this news has been out there 205 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.200 for a week or two now. There's not a lot of places that are 206 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.880 covering it. I think that and you know what, to be honest, 207 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:33.640 I don't know of many others. Of course I've covered it over the last 208 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:40.480 couple of weeks a couple of times. But yeah, they could have preempted 209 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:45.400 this issue. Our technique didn't mention if they had reached out to the stars 210 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:49.279 to ask them about it. I think they should have if they didn't, 211 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:56.200 And it looks like actually, there's another story on Motherboard about it too that 212 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.480 just came out today. So a couple of stories. This one I haven't 213 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.720 looked at, but someone sent it to me, so I'll have to look 214 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:11.079 at this one in more detail. But the Arts Technique article that I ran 215 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:18.559 across is actually also it's inaccurate in many cases, as in many parts, 216 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:26.519 which is unfortunate. Also, so for instance, let me bring it up 217 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:33.039 here. It's called and it's not a very flattering name all the dumb things 218 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:37.960 question Mark Blink one eighty two Frontman UFO project thirty seven million in debt. 219 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:42.920 So it talks about his book and you know, his nonfiction book that came 220 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:48.960 out for Secret and yeah, you know, it's kind of an ancient Aliens. 221 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.359 It's not really that heavy when it comes to research. I could see 222 00:18:52.359 --> 00:19:00.240 them kind of making fun of that, but otherwise I don't think they're This 223 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.440 story is really accurate in framing, like you know, the company and what 224 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:11.920 they're doing, and but well, yeah, so this is kind of scary. 225 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:17.519 Actually, I hope to find out more in the not too distant future. 226 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:19.799 Now, I know you have a connection with a few people there, 227 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:26.079 including you've communicated with Tom. Yeah, is that kind of an embarrassing thing 228 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:30.720 to reach out and ask? I guess exactly. So I've been a little 229 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:37.079 hesitant to do that, and I know they're busy with a really big project 230 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:41.279 right now, fairly recently. I mean, I've gotten some short messages like 231 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:49.160 two responses, and I'm supposed to have a couple longer calls here soon, 232 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.680 but I'm definitely going to ask when I'm able to get on a phone call. 233 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.319 I just haven't been able to do that yet. So, Yeah, 234 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:02.039 because I think it would be good for them to get in front of this 235 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:04.519 and kind of frame it, even if it's to say, yes, we're 236 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.599 you know, things are not looking great for us, but what this means 237 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.640 and what this means for our future. I mean, that'd be helpful for 238 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:18.119 people to know. And I think that investors are probably really scared. I 239 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:21.599 mean, if you don't talk about it, you cause you know suspicion and 240 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.720 you know speculation and conspiracies and all that. That's just to address it right 241 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.680 up front if you can. Yeah, especially when major media gets a hold 242 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:37.759 of it, and if they're not representing it accurately, then really kind of 243 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:41.240 have you could. That's why you got to get in front of these things 244 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.319 and you know, put your your spin or at least your take on things 245 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:51.839 before others start to do it. M Yeah, So hopefully, let's see, 246 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:56.119 this might become a big story because people like to in fun of of 247 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.839 course this sort of stuff that they think might be kind of frivolous or silly. 248 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:07.160 But we'll see, right, definitely not positive, but otherwise. Another 249 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.839 thing that's happening right now is New York Comic Con happened last weekend, not 250 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.880 just you know, yesterday, but a couple you know week ago, a 251 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:22.559 little more than a week ago, and a big presence there was History Channels 252 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.759 blue Project Blue Book, And so this week we got a lot of stories 253 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:30.680 about the History Channel television show Project Blue Book, which is going to you 254 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:37.720 know, be about the US government's investigation into UFOs in the late forties up 255 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:45.079 until the late sixties. And the scientific consultant astronomer, doctor j Allen Heinek, 256 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.559 who was a skeptic of UFOs and then became as he helped the Air 257 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:55.839 Force investigate became interested in and saw this as a legitimate mystery. In fact, 258 00:21:55.880 --> 00:22:00.920 he started the Center for UFO Research. He coined the phrase close encounters 259 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.039 to explain that different types of UFO research. Of course, that's the movie 260 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.960 was named after that, the Spielberg movie. And so he's going to be 261 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:15.039 like the main character. Now it's fictional. So and for instance, you 262 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:19.000 know, they're going to have Heine investigating cases he didn't really investigate. They're 263 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.960 going to have him, you know, kind of looking for some kind of 264 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.160 major conspiracy going on behind the scenes, which is at least nothing that he 265 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.000 shared that he did. However, some people suspect, perhaps you know, 266 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.599 there was information being hidden in fact when blue Book was closed. I think 267 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:41.799 it's called the Bowling Geer memo. I can't remember the exact name of the 268 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.599 memo, but you can find it on open mindstat TV when you look at 269 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.359 the Air Force and Military. We have a video on our YouTube about it 270 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.599 too. But this memo said, that's okay if you close blue Book because 271 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:57.599 the most important cases we send somewhere else. Anyway, so they were investigating 272 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:03.519 cases outside of blue Book. But anyway, the show is depicting real UFO 273 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:08.440 cases, which is pretty exciting, I think. And the History Channel has 274 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:14.480 been writing legit, you know, news stories about some of these old cases, 275 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.039 and they're great stories. But yeah, there's been a bunch of media 276 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.599 about this upcoming show, which I see that. That's what when I looked 277 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:30.599 for stories today, I saw several you know stories about the upcoming project, 278 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.960 which is great. Yeah. The only last thing I'll say is Nick Pope 279 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:40.680 came out with a new documentary called Aliens in the Pentagon. Nick Pope's great. 280 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:42.279 He worked for the Ministry of Defense. In fact, he's got an 281 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:48.920 article today about to the Stars in the Guardian, which is a UK paper. 282 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.160 But he worked for the Ministry of Defense, the British Ministry of Defense 283 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.720 investigating UFOs in the nineties, and like Heineke and like many other like Elizondo, 284 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:02.079 were skeptical when they began their stigations, but came out thinking, wow, 285 00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:06.519 there's really something to this. The reviews haven't been so great because it 286 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:10.759 looks like they use lots of stock images and stock footage that they repeat through 287 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:15.119 the video, which is unfortunate kind of amateurs. But uh, you know, 288 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.839 Nick Pope is is great. I mean, he's a very intelligent person. 289 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:23.519 And I think has a lot of great things to say. So yeah, 290 00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:26.920 oh great. When when does that actually get released? It's already released, 291 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.599 I guess. So. Yeah, we have a link to the story 292 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.880 about it, but at Open Minds to that TV but we're out of time. 293 00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:37.480 Oh wow, all right, all right, well, thanks for joining 294 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.960 us, Martin. Yeah, you're very welcome. Let's go ahead and talk 295 00:24:41.000 --> 00:25:11.960 with Micah Hanks right after this break. I am very happy to welcome back 296 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:15.079 to the show. Micah Hanks. It's been a while, I think, 297 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.880 Yeah, it absolutely has. I have seen you more recently in real life 298 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.960 than it has been an occasion for us to catch up on this podcast when 299 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:26.960 we were, of course out there in Wyoming together a few weeks ago. 300 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.400 So it's only proper that we actually do another show together as well. Good 301 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:34.400 to be here, mm hmm. Well, and I did those interviews you 302 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.920 know, where we talked about Close Encounters, and hopefully you've seen those. 303 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.319 I posted those on YouTube. Yeah. Not only have I seen those videos 304 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.759 you did, and they turned out great, by the way, But when 305 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.799 I went back and I watched it, and I was hearing all this commentary 306 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:52.519 about the famous film Close Encounters, Steven Spielberg. I was like, you 307 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:56.839 know, what in the world was I thinking not watching that before I went 308 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:00.599 to Devil's Tower. And the broader question, of course, that he probably 309 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.559 already have in their minds is how could he not have be seen it, 310 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:06.319 you know, to begin with. So I did go back and watch it, 311 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.400 and uh, yeah, it's a great film. Oh so you did 312 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:15.759 watch it. That's funny because in a way it was kind of good that 313 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:19.759 you hadn't watched it, at least for the piece. And I like that 314 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:26.000 because to me, it's kind of shocking, and it's been something that's in 315 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.039 the last year since the last Devil's Tower is talking to the people who hadn't 316 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.680 seen it, and it's mostly younger people, so you kind of represented this 317 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.640 group of people who had never seen it. But so it was interesting to 318 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:42.640 hear your comments because it's still was culturally significant, Like people know it exists 319 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:48.680 and it's out there, but they just hadn't seen it. Yeah. Absolutely, 320 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.160 well, you know, I mean, I think that kind of mirrors 321 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:56.160 a broader thing that I see Alejandro with regard to at least my own experience 322 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:57.960 with the UFO subject. A lot of people talk to me and they're like, 323 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.279 Ah, you were a child of the nineties. Growing up, you 324 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:04.359 must have watched, you know, films like Close Encounters. You probably were 325 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.400 a huge fan of the X Files. And you know, it's always funny 326 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:12.799 because I guess there's this tremendous letdown when I tell people now, actually I'd 327 00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:18.640 never watched X Files, I never saw Close Encounters. I did own et 328 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.640 on VHS, and I didn't really when I was a child, I didn't 329 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.000 enjoy the film as much as I do now. Now I can go back 330 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:30.279 and watch again what you consider classic cinema of my childhood, and you know, 331 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.799 that's what I call the golden age of special effects. Special effects reached 332 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:37.000 this kind of epitome of realness, you know, I mean, the clarity 333 00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.000 and the genuine nature of the appearance was great. It was fun, but 334 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.720 it hadn't gotten to the point of CGI, where you know, CGI and 335 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.599 its infancy didn't always look all that great. And so I think those films 336 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.559 from the eighties and early nineties are a special era where things looked as good 337 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.039 as they were going to look before CGI came along. But now I go 338 00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:57.680 back and I love those shows and all those films, but they weren't the 339 00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:00.680 things that got me into ufology. The things that got me into the ufology 340 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.720 were actual books and studies pertaining to unusual things seen in the sky. Mm 341 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:08.440 hmm, right, which makes a lot of sense because and which is actually 342 00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:15.319 better because movies aren't real, whereas the books and the information. And I 343 00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:19.160 always have felt, you know personally, and I would love to hear your 344 00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:22.599 thoughts as well. Is that reality, like they say, truth is a 345 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:27.039 much stranger than fiction. And it's true, the stories or real stories are 346 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:33.000 so much more exciting than I feel, for the most part, than what 347 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:36.640 we see on television. Well, yes, certainly. And again you've got 348 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:41.400 to be really careful when you enjoy the you know, the fantastical kind of 349 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.119 representations in fiction and film of these sort of subjects. You got to be 350 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:49.519 careful that those interpretations through fantasy don't color the way that you look at the 351 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:52.799 possible reality underlying some of it. I mean a good example of that that 352 00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.839 I've kept with me for years, and this is a film for the nineties 353 00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:59.960 that I remember very vividly because it was so scary to me at that time, 354 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.519 Firing the Sky, you know, based on the famous experiences of Travis 355 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.319 Walton, our friend. And you know, when you meet Travis where you 356 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.480 see him give a lecture these days, and he points out all the differences 357 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.400 between that film and his actual experience, and anyone who's read his book is 358 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.839 probably already familiar with those things, as I kind of was. You know, 359 00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:22.519 it's a great example of how a popular representation through film and fantasy of 360 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.559 this subject can often not only have a very different kind of, you know, 361 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.000 a vibe and presentation than the actual subject does, but it can be 362 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:34.359 scary, and it can also dissuade viewers or mislead people into thinking that there's 363 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:37.920 one thing going on, or that it's this horrific kind of a thing. 364 00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:41.880 To me, ufology isn't really that. And although I don't deal very much 365 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.480 in the you know, close encounter, you know side of it, I'm 366 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.599 interested in the tangible idea of there being objects in the sky and how science 367 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:51.400 can be applied to the study of them. Again, I've always, i 368 00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:55.079 think, been aware, thanks in part to films like that and what guys 369 00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:57.279 like Travis have to say about his actual experiences. You know that you've got 370 00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:02.559 to be careful about letting the fantast element color your perceptions of the phenomena. 371 00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:04.759 So yeah, I agree with you. It's kind of maybe beneficial, at 372 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:10.440 least speaking for myself here that I didn't, you know, get entirely saturated 373 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:11.880 with that kind of media growing up. I came into this kind of go 374 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:14.839 and what's this all about? And now I got to catch up and go 375 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:18.440 back and watch all the movies. Mm hmm, well Close Encounters, that's 376 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.880 about it. Yeah, yeah, and then the Fire in the Sky and 377 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:27.400 what I guess I and I think, I don't know. I would love 378 00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:32.759 to hear your thoughts. And I almost think that a lot of times when 379 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:41.000 people are presented with a large amount of mystery or unknown that it's a little 380 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.960 bit of overload. And I think we all do this when it comes to 381 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.359 technology and things that we just don't completely understand. Is that we acknowledge it 382 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:53.440 and kind of move on with our lives. And I was thinking of this 383 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:59.519 last night when I was watching the Hunt for the Skinwalker documentary again with some 384 00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:06.799 friends and someone and they didn't even say who said this, but about if 385 00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:10.039 we let people know, there'd be too much and they'd be overwhelmed. And 386 00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:14.640 I don't think people work like that. It's it's almost like this, you 387 00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:17.519 know, a breaker that we all have, like when our brains, when 388 00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:22.079 we're getting confronted with a lot of unknown we just kind of turn off and 389 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:25.400 don't ignore it. It's just like, well, I'm not going to be 390 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:30.200 able to comprehend all of that, so I'll acknowledge kind of that it's there 391 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.519 and just kind of move on with my life. Right yeah there, And 392 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:36.920 we'll have to talk about mister Corbell's film here a little later because I recently 393 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.440 watched too. But you know, there are a lot of dimensions to what 394 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.839 you're talking about right there, and again, you know, let's let's bring 395 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.039 it back down to the idea of you know, the fact versus the fantasy. 396 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:49.920 You see what appears in films, and it is again it's intended to 397 00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:55.759 be in your face and overtly otherworldly, with you know, again, representations 398 00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:00.920 of alien beings and in the interior of very advanced spacecraft from other planets and 399 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:02.759 things like this. And you see this not only in et and Close Encounters, 400 00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:07.880 but of course, you know more recent films like Independence Day, although 401 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:09.559 that's still from that same era again, you know, I mean throughout the 402 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.799 ages, we could continue to name them, all the way up to the 403 00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:15.440 stuff that you're seeing, like the arrival in theaters right now or at least 404 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:16.839 a couple of years ago, you know what I mean. I mean, 405 00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:22.079 there are all these different interpretations of what eventual contact with alien life might be 406 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:27.000 like. And then if you move over into the paradigm of reality where people 407 00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:30.440 report seeing unusual things sometimes, whether that be a light in the sky and 408 00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:34.920 it's a very kind of a vague experience, that could be any number of 409 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.519 things, and a lot of it is really fundamentally based on the interpretation, 410 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:43.039 the filters of human interpretation. One person might see a light in the distance 411 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:46.119 and say star or airplane. Another person might say, you know, aircraft 412 00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:51.319 from Zeta to reticuli. You know, that's really I think what for me 413 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:54.519 got me into looking at psychology in relation to all of this, the idea 414 00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:00.319 that memories sometimes can be updated, and that people can although they don't to 415 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:02.359 do it. You know, it seems to be a function of memory that 416 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:07.119 over time people will kind of update their experiences and that leads to the misremembering 417 00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:12.559 of things and fabulation. So that's one element that has to be considered too. 418 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.279 But in relation to people not being able to handle it, or it 419 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:21.640 being like a complete mental overload, and that speaking about really the UFO experience 420 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.720 in the moment as it's happening, and then immediately thereafter, I don't think 421 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.799 that, you know, people just wouldn't be able to handle it. If 422 00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:30.000 you actually talk with UFO witnesses and people who have seen even more extraordinary things 423 00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:35.960 that they would again describe as being a tangible structured craft. For instance, 424 00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:40.400 many people will describe being curious or even frightened at the time, and you've 425 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:45.119 probably heard this time and time again, Alejandro, that many years later it's 426 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.200 brought up in a conversation and they're like, oh, yeah, I forgot 427 00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:50.119 all about that. You know, I saw that thing too, I saw 428 00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.079 a triangle shaped object, or I saw this or that, and then they'll 429 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.839 remember all of a sudden, it's like this flood of memories comes back, 430 00:33:55.599 --> 00:34:00.799 and they describe feeling whatever they felt at the time. But often that experience, 431 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:02.559 due to its weirdness, is kind of more like a hiccup, like 432 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:06.559 a novel. Oh that's weird, and then they kind of move on and 433 00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:09.840 forget about it. Rather than this paradigm shift, it seems actually far less 434 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:15.440 common that people describe a life changing experience when they've seen a so called UFO 435 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:20.119 than the people who kind of see it duly noted, move on, forget 436 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:22.320 about it maybe, and then it's brought up again years later, remember, 437 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.280 by the way. A good example of this Kurt Russell coming out in that 438 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:29.719 interview a couple of years ago, saying, Hey, I was the pilot 439 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:34.880 who reported seeing the phoenix lines. You remember that, I do very well, 440 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.119 And I think you make a great point because it also reminds me, 441 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.880 and I'm sure you've heard this as well often when people are like I was 442 00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.840 with a group of people and we saw this object and I was just shocked, 443 00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:50.960 and I was so surprised, and I went to my buddies and I 444 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:52.920 was like, do you guys see this? And they're like yeah. And 445 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:54.880 I was like, well, I don't know what that is. And they 446 00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.159 were like, yeah, I don't know what it is either, And they 447 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:00.239 didn't seem to really care, and it was ordinary, and I couldn't believe 448 00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:05.119 that they didn't care. I mean, you hear this so often, you 449 00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:07.880 know that like one person out of the group really had a much of an 450 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:14.519 impact. Yeah, Another iteration of that kind of you know, the varieties 451 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:19.280 of the UFO experience through human interpretation is one, and I think it's best 452 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:22.880 encapsulated in the context of a story that a friend of mine who was a 453 00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.480 scholar, shared with me a number of years ago. And he had two 454 00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:30.119 other friends who also They all three had PhDs, but I think that, 455 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.239 you know, one was a humanities professor, one was actually a physicist or 456 00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:36.639 an astronomer. I don't remember what the vocation of the other was. They're 457 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:42.159 all three sitting there at a cookout and one of them brings up it may 458 00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:45.400 have been the astronomer brings up the idea of UFOs and says, you know, 459 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:50.079 what do you think about that? And there's one of them among the 460 00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:53.079 three that is really skeptical, and he says to my friend and the other 461 00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:55.559 fella, oh, come on, are you really going to bring that up? 462 00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.199 Well, my friend mentions having had an experience seeing something, and so 463 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:04.840 did the astronomer, and then the skeptic among the three PhDs goes, well, 464 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:07.079 you know, in truth actually, and I don't know what it was, 465 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.039 but and he starts to tell his own story too. So in the 466 00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:16.159 context of a conversation with fellow academics. He initially downplayed the idea in a 467 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:22.519 skeptical fashion because that was I think the response that he expected he should give. 468 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:24.480 But then when he found out he was in the company of two fellow 469 00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:28.800 experiencers, if you want to call him that, then he shares his own 470 00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:31.000 experience the skeptic. So that's an interesting thing too, because I think that 471 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:37.840 many people kind of judge their experience based on the paradigm of belief or skepticism. 472 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:39.960 Often when people find out I'm interested in UFOs, they say, I 473 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:43.639 believe they're up there. I believe we've been visited. They say things like 474 00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:46.360 that, which, again in that context, obviously denote, you know, 475 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:51.400 the idea of alien visitation. And you know, if I spend more than 476 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:53.079 five minutes talking with somebody, a lot of the time she's kind of nodding 477 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:55.320 and saying, uh huh, that's neat interesting. I want to hear what 478 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.960 people have to say, but very seldom does the conversation progress to a point 479 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.079 where I actually describe what I think about this subject, and I often have 480 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.760 to tell people if we do get that far, that you know, I'm 481 00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:10.880 not really necessarily talking about aliens here. When we talk about unidentified flying objects, 482 00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:15.880 I mean exactly precisely that. Now there are other interpretations that go beyond 483 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:17.960 that. And that's, by the way, Allehundra is something that I really 484 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.800 did enjoy about being out in Wyoming that you know, with you there, 485 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:24.440 David Marler, Mark D'Antonio, some of the great speakers, Karen as well. 486 00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:30.039 I mean, all these folks who are coming at this from different perspectives 487 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:34.280 and angles. But nonetheless, the approach was very scholarly, and I think 488 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:38.280 everyone was trying to kind of reserve judgment in terms of, you know, 489 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:44.400 what this phenomena actually is. So again, the varieties of interpretation, I 490 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:46.039 mean, they're almost too many to count, but you you know, you 491 00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:50.119 have to look at the psychological side of this too, and the reasons for 492 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:53.360 human belief in relation to the subject in order to understand it in the broader 493 00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:58.119 sense. M hm, right. And I love getting into this area and 494 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:01.000 this is something that you know, I know that you're interested in, and 495 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:06.639 I am very much so also because we come from a similar perspective, because 496 00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:09.679 I feel exactly like you do. You know, people talking about UFOs assuming 497 00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:14.320 they're alien, and eventually if they ask you know, educating them that day, 498 00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:20.559 you know about what UFO actually means. And like you said, the 499 00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:24.400 researchers there at the Devil's Tower, we're all very careful about this, and 500 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:30.679 it's something that you know is really important. Is and I know you're like 501 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:37.519 this too. You're careful about the words that you choose and their definitions, 502 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:43.599 and you even correct yourself for or add information to clarify your point. But 503 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.119 I find myself and I think it's important for us all to do so it's 504 00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:52.079 to make that definition with UFOs, I'm talking about unidentified. I'm talking about 505 00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:58.400 something mysterious, we don't know what it is, but not necessarily jumping to 506 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:04.719 the conclusion that that it's alien or from another planet. Yeah. Absolutely, 507 00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:08.239 and interestingly I think that and again maybe you would, you know, share 508 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:13.559 a similar experience too. But over the years, taking that approach seems to 509 00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:19.519 have made a lot of opportunities for me to talk with people who I believe 510 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.119 to be very credible witnesses. I mean people who frankly I've also in some 511 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:27.559 instances formed relationships with, and you know that allows me to trust them more 512 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.880 or less implicitly and explicitly, I mean they are good people. And I'll 513 00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:35.559 give you a couple of really good examples. One of my colleagues in the 514 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.440 historical and archaeological research that I do with my guys with Seven Ages, and 515 00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:42.599 of course that's a whole different dimension of what I do. But the Seven 516 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:45.519 Ages Research team and I are interested in mysteries of the past and not you 517 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.400 know, necessarily very sensational stuff. I mean, we're talking about North American 518 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:52.960 archaeology, geology and things like this, and so it's very fitting we've got 519 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:57.039 a geologist on our team. But he's also and this is James Waldo, 520 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:01.920 who was a guest incidentally last week on My Alien Report podcast. But James 521 00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:07.119 also served many, many years in the US Army and he was stationed in 522 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:12.679 Iraq and while he was there late late one night, he actually observed a 523 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:16.360 large triangle shaped aircraft and he didn't know exactly what it was. And he 524 00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:23.719 even recalls emailing John Greenwald and you describing this experience. And we were talking 525 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:27.679 about this, and while we were traveling last week, he and our mutual 526 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:30.559 friend Jason Pintrail also with the team. The three of us are traveling through 527 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:35.400 parts of Georgia and Alabama and we met up with a friend of mine. 528 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:37.840 I actually I'd known him for a while, but I met him for the 529 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.599 first time over the weekend, and that was Lash LaRue. That's the former 530 00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:46.159 pro wrestler WCW and WWE, and so it was really kind of an interesting 531 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:51.280 a motley crew, you might say. But we brought up James's encounter and 532 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:53.519 Lor and behold, here's my former pro wrestler friend, Lash saying, ah, 533 00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:57.480 I saw one of those two. And then he shares his experience. 534 00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:01.760 Right down there near the Talladega Motor Speedway scene, a black triangle shaped aircraft. 535 00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:04.880 He said, it was maybe about the size of a school bus, 536 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.880 hovering silently and they noticed it in the sky and they thought, what is 537 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:13.119 that? He his brother and I believe it was his wife. It was 538 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.719 the third witness there with him, and they said that they looked up at 539 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:19.159 it and they saw it, and that only just a few moments after they 540 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.360 noticed it. It took off very quickly, but it had been hovering in 541 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.480 the sky, completely silent, jet black. And again it's interesting that not 542 00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:30.480 only is there continuity between the reports, but again if you approach and I 543 00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:34.440 find that again discussing the subject with people in the context of I wonder if 544 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.719 they are experimental aircraft. I wonder if they are unusual things in the sky, 545 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:40.559 you know, along the lines of some sort of technology that maybe, 546 00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:45.000 you know, on the civilian level we aren't aware of. So phrasing the 547 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:51.119 concept in those terms and not leaping to conclusions ancient aliens visiting Earth, you 548 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:53.960 know, from millennia, seating humanity here on planet Earth, you know, 549 00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:58.320 not going to the depths of Again what I think kind of steps over into 550 00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:01.960 the fantastical realm for me has yielded pretty good results. And again that's something 551 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.840 that we saw out there in Wyoming. I mentioned these triangle aircraft. There 552 00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:12.679 are just a plethora of really I think, very good reports indicating that these 553 00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:15.639 aircraft, whatever they are, in different sizes, but certainly maintaining that triangular 554 00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:19.960 shape, do exist. Best evidenced, of course, I think by the 555 00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:24.239 research of our colleague David Marler, and it's a fascinating element within the uf 556 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:30.400 or the broader UFO phenomena that really seems to point at something very consistent from 557 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:35.079 case to case that's going on, right, Yeah, And you know, 558 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:37.960 I think you brought up something else that's also really interesting, which is the 559 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:45.840 skeptics. And I think this is important especially for you and I because we 560 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:52.079 are especially in this field at least I speaking for myself, and I think 561 00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:58.199 you can identify considered a skeptic often, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, 562 00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:05.519 but you know, there are those skeptics who essentially are kind of contrarians essentially, 563 00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.000 and it almost seems like kind of in it for the battle, which 564 00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:13.320 kind of sounds like like your friend you had mentioned before. But what's fascinating 565 00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:17.679 with many of those people who just fight tooth and nail to refuse that, 566 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:23.840 you know, there's any sort of mystery, at least to battle intellectually with 567 00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:28.519 those of us who think that there there is a genuine mystery. But often 568 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:35.400 their interest is rooted in an experience that they rarely feel comfortable enough to share, 569 00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:39.559 like your friend had, which you mentioned earlier. Yeah, that's true 570 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:43.800 also. And you know, while we're discussing the you know, the idea 571 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:46.960 of psychology credibility, you know, phrasing the UFO subject in a way that 572 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:52.039 is both credible, which is conducive not only to communicating to others about it, 573 00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:54.599 but also in terms of being able to kind of feeld for better data, 574 00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:58.800 you know, from people that you might encounter who have had similar experiences. 575 00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.920 It's important to address, you know, modern skepticism in regard to all 576 00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:05.360 this too, because you know, I've got a lot of friends in these 577 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:08.480 skeptical community who I really appreciate. I mean, some of them have at 578 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:15.079 times offered critiques of my work, which has led to broader conversation and I 579 00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:16.639 think is you know, sharing of ideas, tightening of some of my own. 580 00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:20.440 Eric Qua Jakowski's one guy that comes to mind. Robert Schaefer, who 581 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.800 often attends the UFO congresses. You know, both of these guys I've corresponded 582 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:25.800 with over the years. We may not always agree, like you know, 583 00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:30.639 Bob Shaefer and I, for instance, but we definitely appreciate, I think, 584 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:34.400 having a more rational approach, and you know, we like to correspond, 585 00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:37.360 and I certainly appreciate some of his work. I may not agree with 586 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:39.280 everything all the conclusions that he comes to. I do think that there are 587 00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:45.480 aircraft which are unaccounted for wherever they may be from, and I don't think 588 00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:50.840 that that's a far out proposition. I'm also open to more far out ideas, 589 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.119 but I mean that's pending for their evidence. And that's where I think 590 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.960 you and I get labeled skeptics too, which I really don't mind. And 591 00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:00.840 on that subject of using the term skeptic again, many people say big ass 592 00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:04.840 skeptic and little s skeptic. I've called myself a skeptic for years, but 593 00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:07.880 I'm kind of getting away from that, Alejandro, and I'll tell you why. 594 00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:13.079 It's not because I'm trying to become a person who wants to validate fringe 595 00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.519 claims or be called a believer or whatever else. It really has more to 596 00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:20.039 do with me just not liking the labels at all. I think that's kind 597 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.000 of the problem once you start calling yourself a skeptic or a believer. I 598 00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:28.679 find that, you know, people who use terms to identify themselves and orient 599 00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:30.639 themselves with the subject tend to kind of begin falling into a bit of a 600 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:35.360 cult of personality. Not all of them, but it does happen from time 601 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:37.760 to time where you know, I'm a skeptic and I'm going to be more 602 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.480 skeptical. And I've caught myself doing this too, just being more prone to 603 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:46.840 rule something out of hand without doing good historical and scientific research. In the 604 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:51.920 name of falling in step with a skeptical approach and attitude, and so at 605 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:53.400 least for my own part, I actually like to kind of, you know, 606 00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:57.159 move away from those labels and just say, look, I'm just going 607 00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:00.280 to try and be as unbiased about this as possible, open minded, but 608 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:06.360 skeptical in approach, so that I can, you know, again, falsify 609 00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:10.960 you know, the evidence if necessary, and take a scientific approach toward further 610 00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:17.119 inquiry and not try to prove so much as disprove what may represent a phenomenon. 611 00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:21.039 And it's much easier in most cases, as you know, to disprove 612 00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:25.880 or to falsify extraordinary claims. It's those few cases though, that come you 613 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:30.039 know, that come along every few years or so where there's an accumulation of 614 00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:34.360 really good data. One that David Marler and I both talked about out there 615 00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:38.119 in Wyoming had been the Saint Clair County incident from two thousand, which involved 616 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:43.519 a number of police officers that observed a large triangular shaped aircraft early in the 617 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:45.159 morning. And not only did they all observe it, one of them got 618 00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:49.719 a really terrible photograph of it too, but and this is key, they 619 00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:54.400 were describing the object in real time via police dispatch, and those recordings were 620 00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:58.960 later released to the public, and David Marler goes even deeper into that case 621 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:04.519 in his book on trianglar UFOs An Estimate of the Situation, where he talks 622 00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:07.800 about the fact that he was able to eventually get information about air traffic control 623 00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:14.039 info and data from that evening in question, not from Scott Air Force Base, 624 00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:17.920 but from the regional airport there. They did release some information about their 625 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:24.480 actual radar, but what they did not apparently have access to at that time 626 00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:28.559 was information about whether or not the military had been tracking it. They did 627 00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.199 tell David Marler that an outside agency had requested the information as well, which 628 00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:36.079 seems to indicate that they did have an interest and we're trying to get further 629 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:38.679 details, despite saying they knew nothing about what the aircraft was and had no 630 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:43.400 reports of it being there. So, again, through some of the detective 631 00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:45.679 work that guys like Marler have done, and then also just the information that 632 00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:50.559 was released with regard to police dispatch recordings about that incident, we have pretty 633 00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:53.880 good descriptions of an object very large, consistent in shape, seeing at around 634 00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:59.559 the same time and by a number of different police officers from different areas in 635 00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:01.639 southern Neoy And again, to me, that's a really good case that I 636 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.039 think, you know, holds water so to speak. You know, it 637 00:48:05.079 --> 00:48:07.960 gives us a lot of details about this object, and it kind of helps 638 00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:14.039 remove coming back to that psychological idea of updating memory over time. With the 639 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:16.679 descriptions given in real time, it gives us a pretty good idea of what 640 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:20.400 they were looking at, albeit the fact that it was dark when it occurred, 641 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.280 but nonetheless this thing did have some lights on it. It gives us 642 00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:27.159 a pretty good description of the object. That is a record, you know, 643 00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:30.239 that we can go back to them, we can refer to in hindsight 644 00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:31.800 and say, well, this is how they described it as the officers were 645 00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:36.039 seeing it, and so we could be pretty sure based on you know, 646 00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:38.719 the continuity between the descriptions given in real time on those recordings that you know, 647 00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:43.039 this is what it probably looked like. But those kind of good cases 648 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:45.320 don't come along often. That's really I think the truth of UFO research, 649 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:49.559 isn't it. Yeah, and you have you know, there's a couple of 650 00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:52.559 really good points there that I want to touch on, but it's time for 651 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:57.000 us to take our first break. So we're all ready to the halfway point. 652 00:48:57.079 --> 00:49:00.800 Time flies, but which I knew it would talking to you, because 653 00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:06.039 the time flies all the time when we get in these conversations. But let's 654 00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:08.159 go ahead and take a quick break. For those of you listening on kg 655 00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:12.159 r A, you'll hear a commercial break. Those of you listening to the 656 00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:19.440 podcast, we'll hear a short musical interlude, and we will return shortly with 657 00:49:19.719 --> 00:50:15.840 Micah Hanks. Welcome back to Open Mind UFO Radio. That I'm your host, 658 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:19.400 Alejandro Rojas, and we're here with Micah Hanks. And you know, 659 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:25.960 I think you brought up something interesting with you trying to not pigeonhole yourself, 660 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:32.119 and I think that is a bit of an issue with this kind of particular 661 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:37.599 area of study. Also, uh, there's always a set of assumptions, 662 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:43.119 like I think you know when for instance, if you take the researchers at 663 00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:46.639 the conference the Devil's Tower, all of us who were there, we all 664 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:52.360 respect each other's work. We're very fascinated in what we all have to say 665 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:58.119 in our points of view. But you know, we're all individuals with different 666 00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:01.400 perspectives on a lot of different things. In fact, Mark and I even 667 00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:06.840 in the middle of somebody's talk, got in a probably David Marlercy brought up 668 00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:08.639 a case or something, and we had a little bit of a of a 669 00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:14.440 you know, debate and then came to an agreement after a few minutes. 670 00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:22.119 But that's the point, you know that I think if you pigeonhole yourselves or 671 00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:24.480 put yourself in a camp, then like you said, you know, I 672 00:51:24.519 --> 00:51:30.480 think people can then tend to want to jump on the bandwagon as opposed to 673 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:37.199 unit taking an independent look, uh and making their own determination. Well, 674 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:42.039 absolutely, And you know, speaking of these bandwagons and preconceptions about what UFOs 675 00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:44.599 are or you know, what the best way to go about being a UFO 676 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:50.000 researcher is. I mean again, those preconceptions are actually projected onto UFO researchers. 677 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:52.800 Well, the first time I came out and spoke at the International UFO 678 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:57.119 Congress, you know, I remember that there was there was a mixed attitude 679 00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.559 in relation to the talk I gave. Just use myself as an example here, 680 00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:05.360 And part of the reason why is because I've always tried to apply philosophy 681 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:09.440 and in specific a little you know, epistemological kind of reckoning of sorts to 682 00:52:09.559 --> 00:52:14.400 uphology. In other words, how do we apply philosophically the concept of how 683 00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:17.840 do we know what we know about this subject to the broader idea of UFOs. 684 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:22.880 I mean, asking that fundamental epistemological question of how do we know what 685 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:25.280 we know or what we claim to know about UFOs. That is the first 686 00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:30.639 step toward I think, you know, unmarrying yourself to the alien idea or 687 00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:35.119 any other pet theory and beginning to really take on a more objective approach towards 688 00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:39.519 the subject. And although I've always identified that objectivity as skepticism, I think 689 00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:45.159 again it's healthy at times also to try and unmarror yourself from, you know, 690 00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:50.760 the disposition of skepticism, so that you don't become biased in that regard 691 00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:53.320 either. I mean, to really truly be objective in studying this phenomenon. 692 00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:58.159 Nobody ever said it was easy, and again psychology and philosophy are things that 693 00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:01.280 really come into play with it. But trying to bring that kind of discussion 694 00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:05.840 and dialogue to the subject God, like I said, mixed reviews. When 695 00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.840 I first started giving lectures at bigger conferences about this kind of stuff, and 696 00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:14.440 especially among and I would say, you know, researchers and also enthusiasts who 697 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.480 are several decades older than me, and I remember one or two of them 698 00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:20.599 coming up to me after the talk I gave, and I was standing there 699 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:22.840 with Richard Dolan, and this fellas that I'm really surprised that two of you 700 00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:27.159 are friends. And Richard's like, what do you mean, why why wouldn't 701 00:53:27.159 --> 00:53:30.119 we be friends? You know, Richard and I we don't always see eye 702 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:32.119 to eye either, but we are very good friends and we respect each other 703 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:36.719 and the work that each you know, each of us does. And this 704 00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:39.519 fella says, well, you know, Micah here, he just talks about 705 00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:45.159 philosophy and about you know, belief in psychology and things like that in relation 706 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:49.559 to this subject. And yet there aren't any real details. This guy doesn't 707 00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.920 give us any real details about cases. And Richard, you know, on 708 00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:54.880 the other hand, has done all this historical work and analysis, and it's 709 00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:58.039 like, you know, first of all, you guys are from completely different 710 00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:00.159 paradigms, and second of all, I'm not sure what Micha there is does 711 00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:02.400 is even uphology. Well, Richard disagreed pretty adamantly, and he said, 712 00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:06.719 no, no, you know what Mike is doing is a different approach, 713 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:08.440 but it's just as necessary as what I do. And I'm sure that people 714 00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:12.280 have probably said that to Richard too. You know, well, you aren't 715 00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:15.880 a real investigator. You aren't getting out there and actually doing investigations or whatever. 716 00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:17.840 You're just a guy who reads history books and tries to put all this 717 00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:22.480 in the context of government and politics and things like that. But that's the 718 00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:24.960 whole thing is that, you know, it seems like at some point all 719 00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:29.760 the good UFO researchers, or rather those who aspired to be a good UFO 720 00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:31.960 researchers, they kind of they were all trying to emulate I guess what guys 721 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:36.079 like Stanton Friedman had done, you know, go to the National Archives, 722 00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:42.280 dig up as much historical resource material as they could and put together this water 723 00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:46.159 tight I mean or waterproof you know argument in relation to one case or another 724 00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:52.360 case, you know, Roswell or whatever else. And that's what approach historical 725 00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:55.400 analysis, you know, like that is one approach to studying this phenomena. 726 00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:59.679 Then there's again what guys like you know, my colleague in Australia, Paul 727 00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:04.840 Dean, almost all their research is based around filing Freedom of Information Act requests 728 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:07.280 to government. Again. John Greenwald, who we mentioned earlier, he's really 729 00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:10.280 the mac daddy as far as that goes. He's been doing it since he 730 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:15.280 was a teenager with the Black Vault. You know. Then there's the side 731 00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:21.480 of it where someone might analyze this phenomena culturally, philosophically, psychologically, like 732 00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:27.079 I tend to do, because I want to understand how human belief influences and 733 00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:30.599 you know, not only in experience with UFOs, but also how in the 734 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:35.000 broader idea of culture, especially in the Western world. You know, how 735 00:55:35.079 --> 00:55:39.039 that interpretation of the phenomena and expectations in relation to it color the actual research. 736 00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:44.559 You see that too, And so all of these perspectives are very important. 737 00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:46.400 And I don't think that you can say that there's one way to do 738 00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:50.559 eufology and it's got to be just like how Stanton Friedman did it, or 739 00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.559 it's not really ufology. It's so funny. I agree with you one hundred 740 00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:58.159 percent. And I was in a conversation like this recently and there was a 741 00:55:58.239 --> 00:56:05.039 skeptic and essentially it was about statistics. In fact, this person was arguing 742 00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:08.880 about Cheryl Costa. You know, she writes for see heracuse New Times, 743 00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:15.639 and she writes a lot about the statistics regarding the mofon reports. And he 744 00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:19.480 was like, you know, we can't just look at these numbers. You 745 00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:22.639 can't just look at the nuts and bolts, like what to the Stars is 746 00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:25.239 doing? There's so much what about you know, the cultural things, what 747 00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:31.079 about the social sciences? And this person was in social sciences and they were 748 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:34.760 attacking me as if I was saying, no, you have to only do 749 00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:37.880 it this way, and I think it was a bit surprised and that I 750 00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:43.000 was like, I'm agreeing with you. I totally agree that. Just like 751 00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:47.519 you said, there are so many different ways. There's so many different disciplines 752 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:52.800 that need to be involved with looking into this, and in fact, I 753 00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:57.039 want to go a different direction than people normally go with you in a minute, 754 00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:00.800 but just the same thing. And it was it's just kind of funny, 755 00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:02.519 this skeptic coming at me, like, ah, why aren't you guys 756 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:06.639 doing this and this, and which is a little bit frustrating because it's it's 757 00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:09.000 like, who's you, guys. I'm just a me first of all, 758 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:13.840 so I can't represent the entire field. And second of all, I agree 759 00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:17.119 with you, you know, and that it does take a multidisciplinary, you 760 00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:22.639 know, approach to really truly look at all of this absolutely, And again 761 00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:25.159 that's why I enjoy the writing of guys like a NASA historian James Oberg, 762 00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:30.000 for instance, as much as I'm reading your stuff or or David Marler's stuff. 763 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:32.840 I mean, I don't pick a certain ideology or a certain researcher or 764 00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:37.920 a certain pet theory and put everything I study in relation to this subject or 765 00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:40.320 any subject for that matter, because UFOs are only they're like the pinky on 766 00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:44.920 the broader hand of my interests, you know. But I mean, whatever 767 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:46.760 the subject is I'm interested in, you know, I don't I don't just 768 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:52.199 narrow my focus so much, because I do think that while there's merit to 769 00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:54.920 being a specialist, if you really want to understand this phenomena, there are 770 00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:59.760 a variety of approaches that must be applied, and so a good Again, 771 00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:04.119 I think it's really important that although people should be I prefer when people are 772 00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:07.519 scientifically inclined. And I could go off, you know, wasting time really 773 00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:12.280 naming things that I think are unproductive in relation to methods of inquiry for UFOs, 774 00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:15.639 you know, sitting around singing Kumbaya and trying to raise our chakras or 775 00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:19.119 something like that and call down aliens. I might say that that's on the 776 00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:22.960 lesser end of importance when it comes to how science can be applied to UFO 777 00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:29.039 research. But I do think that an interdisciplinary approach where specialists with different backgrounds 778 00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:32.400 and areas of interest work together and try and compare everything from you know, 779 00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:37.760 analytical science to you know, psychology, nuts and Bolt's historical research, and 780 00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:42.239 also field investigation that involves physical trace evidence, what little can be gleaned in 781 00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:45.679 terms of UFO reports. You know, all these things working together are the 782 00:58:45.719 --> 00:58:49.800 best approach to trying to understand this phenomena. I do not think, however, 783 00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:52.079 being so skeptical that you just say no, it isn't, No it 784 00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:54.559 can't, no, it doesn't there is nothing to see here, shut up, 785 00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:59.719 quit talking about it. That's not a constructive way of going about trying 786 00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:04.000 to stay this other. So again, I just I fundamentally think being scientific 787 00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:09.000 is the best approach to studying UFOs. So I want to kind of move 788 00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:13.239 away from that, even though that's a whole topic and that would be really 789 00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:17.440 interesting to talk about, you know, how do we scientifically study UFOs. 790 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:22.000 But we don't have time for that conversation quite frankly, so maybe we'll talk 791 00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:24.719 about that later. And I really want to go a different direction, which 792 00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:30.960 is I think something unique about a more unique perspective, which is, you 793 00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:37.039 know, I am really when I see view myself and what I do, 794 00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:44.000 I feel more like a futurist in that I love to write about space and 795 00:59:44.599 --> 00:59:49.800 space technologies, space tourism. And for me, you know, the idea 796 00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:54.880 of UFOs and UFO research kind of fits in that. And so for you, 797 00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:59.800 you call, you know, your grayly and report your your tagline is 798 00:59:59.800 --> 01:00:07.599 the future is now. And I guess that indicates that you know what you're 799 01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:12.159 thinking of? Is this idea of what the future is? You know? 800 01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:15.679 How does that pertain to what you do? That's a really good question. 801 01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:19.480 And again, every time I sit down and talk with you, and you 802 01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:22.840 and I start comparing notes, I realize how much more alike we are than 803 01:00:22.840 --> 01:00:25.679 I ever realized. And so yeah, at one time, especially when I 804 01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:31.639 really started trying to get serious about my inquiries into the UFO subjects, I 805 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:37.559 actually began that's when I added that tagline the future is now and I actually 806 01:00:37.679 --> 01:00:40.679 at times have referred to myself also as a futurist, because I'm not just 807 01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:45.119 interested in the future of aerospace. Also, I'm interested in artificial intelligence, 808 01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:50.360 and I keep a very close eye on developments in that area because I think 809 01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:54.440 that it is both a promising element that may arise in the not two distant 810 01:00:54.480 --> 01:01:00.440 future technologically speaking, but it is also something that bears potential for harm and 811 01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:02.840 so and really, you know, I mean, it doesn't seem to be 812 01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:09.239 the case that UFO phenomena in any way has communicated us any kind of threat, 813 01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:15.320 and so I don't necessarily apply the same sort of existential concerns to ufology 814 01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:22.199 that I would something like artificial intelligence, etc. But I at least reserve 815 01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:27.880 judgment on leaping to the conclusion that there's no danger or existential concerns that should 816 01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:30.079 be associated with it, And in fact, there are plenty of them that 817 01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:32.119 we could talk about. So all those things kind of do put me in 818 01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:36.320 the futurist camp in that regard. Although it's funny, I told Jason Penttreil, 819 01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:38.599 my colleague with Seven Ages. Again, we do history and archaeology with 820 01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:42.920 that team, and we have a podcast associated with that too, And I 821 01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:45.599 do another show called Middle Theory, which is all about news and current events, 822 01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:49.639 And I said to him, it's like each podcast deals with a different 823 01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:52.719 era. It's like, you know, seven Ages is the past, Middle 824 01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:54.800 Theory is the present, and greatly in report is the future. So you 825 01:01:54.840 --> 01:01:58.480 might say I'm a bit of a time traveler in the sense that I look 826 01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:01.360 at all eras as it relates to history, past, present, and future. 827 01:02:01.400 --> 01:02:07.800 But I definitely think that understanding trends technologically and otherwise that we're seeing right 828 01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:15.079 now and what the idea of tomorrow is shaping up to be can help us 829 01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:19.480 in relation to studying UFOs. There's that old adage, I guess Alejandra that 830 01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:23.320 you hear from time to time, which has to do with anything that the 831 01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:27.760 government's working on right now. You know, the civilian level isn't going to 832 01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:31.320 hear about it for another thirty years, which implies that there are technologies. 833 01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:35.960 Again, that's just a ballpark figure, and I'm using an anecdote, but 834 01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:39.199 I mean one might say that there are probably, in likelihood technologies that, 835 01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:44.079 again on the civilian level, we don't know about that are maybe thirty years 836 01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:46.880 or so, give or take. In advance of what we know to exist, 837 01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:51.840 and so in that sense, the future really is right now. And 838 01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:57.760 I think that it definitely, at very least summarizes part of the issue that 839 01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:01.239 we see with UFOs, because we appear to be dealing with technology that is 840 01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:05.599 at least a few years in advance of us. Now. Many people would 841 01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:07.239 say, in order to be able to get here from another planet again kind 842 01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:12.519 of operating within the alien or et paradigm, I mean, they'd have to 843 01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:16.480 be hundreds, maybe thousands of years in advance of us. But the technology 844 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:20.440 at very least in terms of and this is a supposition, so we've got 845 01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:23.280 to be careful as we deal in the realm of speculation here. The technology 846 01:03:23.320 --> 01:03:29.119 does not appear necessarily to be decade or i'm sorry, hundreds of years, 847 01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:31.920 centuries or more ahead of us. Really, I think seems more like it's 848 01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:36.159 in the realm of decades. And there are weird little things that come up 849 01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:39.320 in the context of UFO literature that seem to point to this. For instance, 850 01:03:39.320 --> 01:03:43.119 a really quick one has to do with Betty and Barney Hill, and 851 01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:50.280 during their alleged abduction experience back decades ago, they Betty specifically described a pregnancy 852 01:03:50.320 --> 01:03:53.960 test in which a needle was injected into her abdomen and she was you know, 853 01:03:54.039 --> 01:03:58.920 she perceived this as being a pregnancy test. It was described as being 854 01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:02.960 similar to what is no as amniosyentesis, which is at that time. In 855 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:08.000 fact, actually it would have been sort of nascent technology by today's standards, 856 01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:12.400 it's considered fairly archaic. And yet it was described in the context of an 857 01:04:12.400 --> 01:04:15.960 abduction experience where a woman claimed that this occurred to her. And so the 858 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:19.800 reason that's significant Nick Redferne and other researchers have pointed that out is we didn't 859 01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:24.599 see some sort of advanced technology with lasers or holograms or something like that. 860 01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:28.039 We saw something that was just a few years ahead of what the state of 861 01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:31.639 the art technology at that time actually was. And you might say similar things, 862 01:04:31.639 --> 01:04:34.519 and we could again go off on a tangent, but I'd rather save 863 01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:40.440 the time here. But applying that kind of observation of broader ufology, you 864 01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:42.480 know, in terms of, you know, what is the state of the 865 01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:45.760 art of this technology, whatever it is, where is it from All indications 866 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:50.159 point to the idea that it's something that's more relatively close to where we are 867 01:04:50.199 --> 01:04:57.519 today. Than what we would expect perhaps from alien technology centuries or thousands of 868 01:04:57.559 --> 01:04:59.800 years in advance of us. I hope that kind of makes sense. But 869 01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:04.280 again, in that kind of framework, looking at the technology that we expect 870 01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:09.719 of the next few decades, I think can be very informative for us in 871 01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:13.559 terms of trying to interpret UFO phenomena that is, you know, described by 872 01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:17.199 experiencers today, you know. And I think this gets us back to a 873 01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:23.880 couple of things, but one of them being the Hunt for the Skinwalker video, 874 01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:28.760 because getting back to what you're talking about here is that, you know, 875 01:05:28.840 --> 01:05:32.880 when you get into the nitty gritty of the phenomena, it is very 876 01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:42.599 confounding, like they found with their Skinwalker investigations in Jeremy's documentary or in the 877 01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:46.840 George and At book Hunt for the Skinwalker, and it kind of then it's 878 01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:55.239 one of the reasons I like to look at the peripheral issues as well, 879 01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:03.000 because the confounding nature of the phenomena has an effect on people, and it 880 01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:09.000 often an emotional effect, and I think even the compounding nature of the phenomena 881 01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:18.639 itself often kind of creates these tensions and and you know, problems with people 882 01:06:19.239 --> 01:06:25.400 involved with this stuff communicating with each other because we're trying to interpret something that 883 01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:30.320 might not be interpretable for us right now, right, that's a very good 884 01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:33.119 point. Again, it's so often said, it's almost blase, but Arthur 885 01:06:33.159 --> 01:06:39.119 C. Clark talking about you know, any significantly advanced technology as observed by 886 01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:44.480 a lesser advanced you know, technological group or civilization, will be perceived as 887 01:06:44.599 --> 01:06:46.960 magic. And it very well may be that certain things that we like in 888 01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:53.639 today to spiritual phenomena or or you know, experiences that really fall outside the 889 01:06:53.639 --> 01:06:59.280 paradigm of what science can explain and therefore are often relegated to myth or superstition. 890 01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:01.559 It veryone may be further on down the road that will recognize those things 891 01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:04.719 as technologies in and of themselves at some point, but we aren't to that 892 01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:08.159 point where we understand them, and therefore they seem magical. You know, 893 01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:14.760 Arthur Clark again a very very wise futurist who try to anticipate future developments. 894 01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:16.199 And if you go back and watch videos of him, I mean he predicted 895 01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:21.119 the Internet, He predicted news and media taking you know, moving over into 896 01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:25.960 the web, and you know, economic and social considerations in relation to all 897 01:07:25.960 --> 01:07:30.480 that it's really fascinating watching old videos of Arthur C. Clark. But yeah, 898 01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:32.920 I think that again, it's it's important to take all these things into 899 01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:36.480 consideration because of the way that, like you said, the phenomena that we 900 01:07:36.559 --> 01:07:42.440 perceive as described in anecdotal instances reports, you know, by those who claim 901 01:07:42.480 --> 01:07:46.000 to be experiencers, it does have a confounding effect in many instances, and 902 01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:51.400 that was probably best displayed during some of the phenomena described there at the so 903 01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:56.480 called skin Walker Ranch. And I just got to give Jeremy Corbell props for 904 01:07:56.559 --> 01:07:59.840 an excellent job he did on that documentary. I didn't just rent it, 905 01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:03.159 bought a copy because I wanted to support him and also be able to refer 906 01:08:03.199 --> 01:08:05.320 back to it and watch it many times, as I know that you have 907 01:08:06.079 --> 01:08:13.960 excellent documentary, some excellent archival footage, and through the conversations between Corbel and 908 01:08:14.679 --> 01:08:19.920 George Knapp, it also I think very effectively anticipated some of the developments that 909 01:08:19.960 --> 01:08:27.039 have come out in relation to the famous now famous Pentagon UFO study. In 910 01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:29.920 fact, right at the very end, I don't want to give anything away, 911 01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:31.560 and so we're in the spoiler free zone here. Let me just say, 912 01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:34.840 folks and if Jeremy's listening again, I just want to congratulate him. 913 01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:39.039 But you know, at the very end of the of the film, there 914 01:08:39.039 --> 01:08:44.720 are some references made to the idea of a broader like a parent organization within 915 01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:49.359 the Pentagon around the so called Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program and lo and behold, 916 01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:55.680 now that the film's out, we have learned about something along those lines, 917 01:08:55.720 --> 01:08:58.199 and so I won't say much more about that. I want people to 918 01:08:58.199 --> 01:09:00.760 go watch Jeremy's film. It's really really good, good, excellent documentary. 919 01:09:01.039 --> 01:09:05.560 But definitely we're starting to see already some developments that were discussed in that film, 920 01:09:05.560 --> 01:09:11.760 which effectively I think anticipated some developments in relation to the Pentagon groups UFO 921 01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:15.680 inquiries, which that's been a fascinating little subdivision of upology in itself. It 922 01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:20.359 has been. And just so the listeners know, on YouTube you can get 923 01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:25.920 more of MICA's perspective. I've got a lot of great positive comments about your 924 01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:31.119 point of view. Also under the Open Mind YouTube by one of the videos 925 01:09:31.159 --> 01:09:34.199 that I did is where we talked about, you know, how we all 926 01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:38.560 felt about that program and then the effects of that program. And so you 927 01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:42.079 can go to YouTube and watch that video of us talking about that at the 928 01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:45.439 Devil's Tower. But my last question because we're really out of time, so 929 01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:48.760 it'll have to be brief, but if you could make a comment, and 930 01:09:48.800 --> 01:09:53.119 you spoke to it just a minute ago, But it almost feels like, 931 01:09:53.600 --> 01:09:57.760 you know, I know you as well as I look at kind of the 932 01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:02.039 impact of this, I'm not on the public and you know with you larger 933 01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:10.439 other phenomena. It's interesting and I just would love a comment on how it 934 01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:18.479 seemed this conversation, especially about UFOs, is becoming such a larger conversation and 935 01:10:18.800 --> 01:10:25.960 is actually right now I think, influencing the larger culture more than I would 936 01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:30.359 have expected it to. Yeah, it certainly has, I have to say 937 01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:36.479 that again, public knowledge of ongoing UFO inquiry by the Pentagon has kind of 938 01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:41.479 reinvigorated the debate. I am an author. I've written books on this subject, 939 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:45.600 but I'm equally weary. Despite having colleagues and friends who've written excellent books 940 01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:48.920 that I enjoy reading, I'm weary of a kind of culture industry being built 941 01:10:48.920 --> 01:10:53.520 around a subject where it's just people writing books about this or that and going 942 01:10:53.560 --> 01:10:57.239 to conferences, giving talks and trying to sell those books and UFO research, 943 01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:00.840 and I think that my good author friends would completely agree. They're very aware 944 01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:04.119 of this too. It needs more than that, it needs more than a 945 01:11:04.119 --> 01:11:11.079 culture industry. And so knowledge of a government program sponsored by taxpayer dollars, 946 01:11:11.159 --> 01:11:15.640 endorsed by senators and of course being undertaken and perhaps still underway right now. 947 01:11:15.960 --> 01:11:19.359 In that capacity, it removes the subject of UFOs in the mind of the 948 01:11:19.359 --> 01:11:24.239 public from a culture industry and into an actual serious subject that our government has 949 01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:27.720 looked at. And that is a very meaningful development in terms of recent UFO 950 01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:32.760 research. Right. Yes, so we'll keep looking into the future. But 951 01:11:33.439 --> 01:11:38.399 the time flew, Oh my gosh, I can't it's it's whenever. It's 952 01:11:38.439 --> 01:11:42.479 an interesting conversation. The time flies quicker than usual. It feels like we've 953 01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:45.960 only been talking a couple minutes. So we'll definitely have to get you on 954 01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:50.000 in the not distant future again to discuss some more about this. But thank 955 01:11:50.000 --> 01:11:54.000 you so much for being on the show. Of course, people can go 956 01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:59.720 to Grayleyanreport dot com to read more about your stuff. But is there something 957 01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:01.800 else you would like put to point people too to look at? Yeah? 958 01:12:01.840 --> 01:12:06.039 Sure, I mean people can check out my website Micah Hanks dot com and 959 01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:09.960 that has links to all my podcasts, which again the Seven Ages, Audio 960 01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:13.439 Journal, Middle Theory and greatly in Report. And lastly, I just want 961 01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:15.560 to say it's always great to catch up and talk with you, Alejandro. 962 01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:17.760 Although like you said, the time goes faster than a speeding tic tac, 963 01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:24.479 it does, and they move pretty quickly, I hear. Oh yeah, 964 01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:27.720 all right, thank you so much, and thank you sir. Thank you 965 01:12:27.840 --> 01:12:30.960 so much to Micah Haiks for joining us on the show again. He is 966 01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:35.079 awesome. He's such a great thinker. He's got such a great radio voice 967 01:12:35.119 --> 01:12:39.159 too. It's always a lot of fun to talk at with Micah, and 968 01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:41.760 it's fun to hang out with him. He's really a funny guy. But 969 01:12:42.520 --> 01:12:45.479 other news, just so you know, you know, actually, in just 970 01:12:45.520 --> 01:12:50.479 the last few minutes, Tom DeLong has actually replied to the to the Stars 971 01:12:51.199 --> 01:12:55.560 funding issue that Martin and I were talking about at the beginning of the show. 972 01:12:55.840 --> 01:13:00.720 So go to the Open minds UFO facebook group and you be able to 973 01:13:00.760 --> 01:13:03.239 see that, or you could, of course go to Tom Delong's Facebook page 974 01:13:03.319 --> 01:13:09.279 and you'll see his response also. Otherwise, be sure to check out UFO 975 01:13:09.479 --> 01:13:15.760 seriously that's the YouTube live news show that I do every Thursday at six pm 976 01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:20.119 Arizona time, which is currently aligned with Pacific, but we cover all the 977 01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:26.079 UFO news there, so you can check that out on YouTube Ufo Seriously Live. 978 01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:30.079 You can also check out my Patreon site and please do. You'll see 979 01:13:30.119 --> 01:13:34.840 my space stories and other stories there. And then at Ufocongress dot com, 980 01:13:34.880 --> 01:13:39.520 of course, you can read the latest about the UFO Congress, including going 981 01:13:39.560 --> 01:13:44.359 to the store where you could get cool UFO and alien products, and the 982 01:13:44.439 --> 01:13:47.319 videos on demand where you can watch all the lectures. In fact, we 983 01:13:47.399 --> 01:13:51.279 have all the lectures up for the twenty eighteen UFO Congress. You can go 984 01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:55.560 watch them at the Videos on Demand. Of course. You can find all 985 01:13:55.600 --> 01:13:59.720 of this also at Openminds dot tv, including the news that Martin and I 986 01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:02.239 were to talking about at the top of the show. In the upper hand 987 01:14:02.279 --> 01:14:05.159 corner. You'll also see a link to the video portal that I was just 988 01:14:05.199 --> 01:14:09.760 referring to, and you can join our email list to keep up to date 989 01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:14.239 on the latest. So thank you again to Micah Hanks for joining us. 990 01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:17.800 Thank you to his brother Caleb Hanks for the opening and closed music that you 991 01:14:17.920 --> 01:14:23.560 hear in Love every week. Thank you to Martin Willison Podcast UFO for joining 992 01:14:23.640 --> 01:14:27.359 us with the news. Thank you to Systematics for the bumper music, and 993 01:14:27.439 --> 01:14:32.279 of course thank you the listeners for being here once again. Wonderful to see 994 01:14:32.279 --> 01:14:35.279 you. Oh by the way, if you're in the Baltimore area in November 995 01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:40.119 the ninth to the eleventh, I'll be speaking at alien Con, so you 996 01:14:40.159 --> 01:14:44.279 can also find out more about that just google alien Con. Anyway, I 997 01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:48.600 hope to see you there. I will talk to you again soon. We'll 998 01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:54.319 talk to you on the show next week. Until then, Audio Smooth Chu 999 01:14:54.359 --> 01:15:45.800 shows the motion