What is up, fellow thermonuclear a eppers. I am Dampa Valley coming at you with another NBA team. Look ahead, we are onto the Utah Jazz and that means for the third consecutive season, we will be speaking to the athletics Tony Jones. Follow him on Twitter at t Jones on the NBA spelled exactly as it sounds, and you can also see it on the screen if you're watching on YouTube. I have many questions for him, just because the Jazz did a thing or two over the off season. But the most important question I have for you, Tony, how the heck are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm here and you know we're on the cusp of another NBA season. So we're blessed to do what we love to do. So we are. We are. We are one of the best blessed ones. I appreciate you for having me on. I appreciate you coming back a third time. You know the first two I can maybe trick people into if you come back a third time, it's your fault. At that point. You know what you're in for on the pot, I'll just like you. Yeah, that's not a very popular opinion though, so I will say why, I am happy that we get to do what we do this offseason, even though it was the longest one in three years flew by. For me, it didn't feel like it was the longest one. It felt like it was over. I could have used like another two weeks probably before getting into the thick of everything. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, I mean that's what happens when you know there's so much. There was a lot of There was a lot of going on this offseason, so especially the team that you cover. Yeah, especially with the team are cover, and there'll be a lot going on next offseason two. So yeah, I don't want to turn this into like a retrospective on the off season, but I do have to ask, just given the haul that they got for Rigo Berretnam absolutely monstrous, was now the right time to tear it down and start over to that extent in your opinion, Well, I mean, if you get the you know, they got more than what they should have for Donovan and Rudy. As good as Donovan and Rudy were, I mean they they got you know, assets and assets hall for both of those guys. You know that you normally see for top five to top ten guys. And you know, I think that Rudy is a top ten to top fifteen guy. I think that Donovan is a top twenty, the top twenty five guy. You know, they essentially from the years twenty twenty five to twenty twenty nine, they essentially control two teams drafts for for those for all four or five of those years. So you know, with the assets that they got, with the assets that they got for Royce O'Neil, they got a first for Royce O'Neil, they have a they have three first round picks in this upcoming draft, which is one of the best, one one of the best drafts on paper that I've that I've ever seen and covering this sport, then you know, I mean, then it's it's the right time because the question that you have, the answer is where you're gonna win a championship with the court that you had, and the answer was likely no. So if you get you know, four first round picks for Rudy Gobert, a first round pick for Royce O'Neil, and three first three other first round picks for Donovan Mitchell, you basically got eight first round picks out of that. Then on top of that, you got Walker Kessler and l Try a Bogie out of this year's draft. So that's you know, essentially nine to ten first round picks. You know, you probably did pretty good for yourself. They or they may have single handedly just set the superstar trade market price. Just when you're looking at what they got for both Gobert and don Van Mitchell. That is just we know teams give up a lot for superstars, but that was just the capslock hall for both of them. And I think it's going to impact how teams not go about their asking prices when they're trading stars in the future. But if you're a team looking to trade for a star, you have to put that as part of the calculus, like, oh, we're gonna have to bankrupt our asset, well, so we better be ready after we make this superstar trade. I feel like this single handedly just sort of shifted the superstar trade paradigm and just this upward directory, in part because I do believe teams for now, We'll see what happens in the next CBA and as the cap goes up, but stars aren't moving around in free agency anymore. Well, I mean, it's certainly, it's certainly recked the market for the summer. I know, I certainly. I think that the reason Kevin Durant is still a Brooklyn that is because of Rudy Gobert, you know. So it definitely recked the market for the summer. We'll see what happens next summer when the market resets. It kind of resets itself and over the over the trade deadline. Obviously, I think the Lakers are a real team to watch, our team to watch there with with with their assets. But you know, it's it's one of those things where the market sets during one cycle and then it kind of plays out during that cycle, and then it's you have to see what happens with the market sets during the next cycle. My last question on this is when you look at don Van Mitchell, he's twenty six, three years left of the contract before he goes into free agency. What goes into the thought process of moving him now rather than trying to rebuild around him. Does it say something about how far the Jazz thought they could go with him? Is their best player, so to say more about what they thought he would do once he got if he ever got to free agency, or was it just we can't like these offers are so monstrous that we're gonna lean all the way into this thing and control a crap ton of draft picks. I think it's a confluence of things. I think it's if you're gonna trade a guy that caliber, you're gonna want to trade him with more years left on his deal than less years, because that's how you that's how your exact value. He loses his value the deeper he gets into the to the contract. I think, you know. The second thing is, you know, and there's something there were some that didn't within the Jazz organization that didn't know whether Donovan had total one hundred percent buy into what they were doing. And then there was something in the Jazz organization that you know, just didn't know if Donovan could be the piece on the championship team. Now that being said, like you said, Donovan's top twenty to twenty five player right now. He's a year in, year out all star, you know, and he's gonna make Cleveland a lot better. Which pieces that they already have, They hire Will Hardy and we can go with the Brian win Rosy and why would they do that? But do you have any sense for stylistically how they're going to play under Will Hardy, Like, what to sort of expect from them this season and their their play style. Well, they're definitely gonna play hard. Oh hard hardy. Okay, let me stop that I was coining. But definitely gonna play hard. But you know, I expect a lot of five out basketball with Kelly olinok at the center, at the center spot, I expect. I expected Jazz to shoot a take take a lot of three point shots, you know, definitely, you know, motion offense. You know, expect as ash we get into year two, year three to Jazz prioritize positional length and athleticism, which is a little different than the Quinn Snyder regime. You know. And I you know, I expect, you know, Will's teams to be competitive. He's a really competitive guy. He's a guy that I don't think that he'll react to less than one hundred percent effort. And I don't think that he's scared to sit people, you know. So, you know I expect out of this team. I think this team is gonna play hard and they're gonna be as scrappy as possible and kind of see where the chips fall. A lot of people assume that they're gonna suck, and when you look at the roster, actually they're not built to suck. And I know you sort of just wrote a piece on this as well, but would you expect them to enter the real tanking race this season via trades they're shut down? Do you think they're just gonna be organically bad or if we want to call it rebuilding enough to not have to worry about that, because you look at them on paper and if they don't make a single trade, whatever they're over under is like I think it's twenty four twenty five at this point, Like they're if everyone's healthy, like they're better than a twenty four twenty five one team. They're just they're not built to be San Antonio or Indiana right now. No, not right now. And you know, like I reported, they don't want to be They don't want to be Houston, they don't want to be Orlando, you know. And that being said, they're gonna lose a lot of games at the beginning of the season just because the schedule is really really difficult, something like tending their first fifteen on the road. They they've got Denver and Minnesota coming up this week. They've got Denver again. Next week, they've got the Lakers, They've got the Clippers, they've got the Mavericks. I mean, it's just team after team after team in the first twenty that you know, even a really really good team will struggled with that kind of schedule. So they're gonna come out and they're gonna try to be competitive, and they're gonna try to win every game, every game possible. What people don't realize is that this is a roster full of guys who are fighting to stay in the NBA. Mike Conley is fighting for another contract. Ready Gay is fighting for another contract. Malik Beasley is fighting for, you know, another long term contract after the one that he's on. Kelly and Lennox probably fighting for another contract. Jared Vanderbilt, you know he's gonna want a long term contract. You know, you can go down the list. Nikkila, Alexander Walker, you know, he wasn't extended, he didn't get a rookie extension. He's going to be a restricted free agent next summer, so you know he's fighting to stay in the league. Doka Azabuki is likely going to be fighting to stay in the league. You know, same thing for Leandro Barmero. You can go down the line, and this is a unique roster in terms of guys who are are fighting for something in their careers right now. If you know, I had to, you know, close my eyes and think, you know, the only the only guys on the Jazz roster who are really actual comfortable in terms of where they are in their career is you know, probably Laury Marketing and Walker Kessler and and Labaji. You know, other than that, I mean, these people are all fighting for something, so you know to to you know, you know, I know what the the noises around the team. You know, tank this, tank that, and you know, the Jazz may very well end up losing a lot of games, but I know the people within that team they're going to be fighting to win every game. I do think a lot of people mistake tanking for happening too much on the court, when I think a majority of it happens off the court with the moves that teams make in the front office. And I would my callous perspective is that they do need to play that game because when you look at this roster and you sort of touched upon a little bit. There's a little bit of transience to it where you're talking about guys in contract years, guys who just don't profile as long term keepers, and so does that make this challenging? And you're more challenging than usual year one of a rebuild where there's not Yeah, you can look at a Bagi and Kessler and think that, well, we want these guys around long term, and you did just have context in but you have all these other players that I just don't think factor into the bigger pictures. There are a certain challenge of not being able to point out a guy or two and be like, these are who we plan to rebuild around, because this is just very much like stage one of the rebuild from scratch. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, that's more reasons to realize, you know, how this team is going to come out and try to be competitive because you know, they're not auditioning. They're not only auditioning for the Jazz, They're auditioning for the rest of the league as well. If you, you know, close your eyes and you look three years into the future, looking to the year twenty twenty five, that's three years how many of these guys are likely to be on with the Jazz, you know, maybe three if we're lucky, maybe right, Yeah, yeah, I mean they're even there was even talk. I mean you look at Sexton in marketing, people have viewed them as like, oh, that's players that the Jazz want to reroute later. Are either of those two though, Like, do you get a sense or the organization valuing them long term or about just the type of impacts they have on this team? And I think sex and immediately is the most polarizing one. He misses most of last year with his injury, doesn't really have a ton of suitors and restrict free agency. We're talking about someone who just recently averaged twenty four plus per game points plus per game, shot over fifty percent on Two's a nice clip from three and so is there any sense of like, does this organization view him as maybe a long term keeper or is this very much just sort of like a stop gap. Well, they signed him to a four year deal for seventy two million dollars, But I think that every single player that's on this team right now, from one to fifteen is going to have to prove that they're a long term piece. So you go from the top down, lawyer marketing, Colin Sex and Jared Vanmobilt. You know, all of those guys are gonna have to prove that their long term pieces. Malite Beasley, he's gonna have to prove that he's a long term piece because the roster spots are gonna start being they're gonna start dwindling really quickly. You've got three first round picks next year the Jazz. Even if the Jazz trade one of them, they're likely to use two of them. That's two roster spots right there. They've got. They're gonna have thirty thirty five million dollars in salary cap space, you know, so that's you know, three or four more roster spots right there. So right now, conservatively we're talking about six new players on the team next year that are not on the team right now. So that means conservatively we're talking bare bones. That's six skies that are on this roster this year, then they're not going to be here next year. So I mean, you can see, you know, how how how quickly this turnover is going to take place. So if you're Colin Sexton, if you're lawyer marketing, if you're you know, even if you're wanted the old heads, even if you're Mike Conley or Regae or Jordan Clarkson somebody like that, you know they're going to have to prove individually, each one of them that they're part of the plan going forward. So you know, I, you know, to be honest, I think that probably you know the two that I would you know, the two or three I would safe be safest to say a lark are marketing along with Kessler and Abaji. But even with you know, Walker Kessler, what happens if the Jazz get the first pick of the draft and they get Victor one Baianna, then you know, all of a sudden, if you're Walker Kessler, you know your your backup for the rest of your career with with this team, you know. So, I mean, it's it's definitely one of these things where you know, you could talk collective all you want to, you can put your you know, you could throw your hands in the team huddle, say one two three Jazz one two three, team all you want to. But I can guarantee you that every last one of these guys are going home every night and they're like, you know what can I do to prove my worth, you know, not only to the Jazz but the rest of the NBA. I like the little East Drug gather that you expect Victor Wenbanana to be a center in the NBA. I never would have thought. I look at his frame and I'm like, I don't know if he's playing center, But I like that you threw that in here. You can, I mean, to be honest, you know, I'm sorry, I almost that's a mismomer that man can play any of the front court positions. Yeah, so you're all of them saying is Walker Kestler is safe? Him me one Brianna could play together? They could be Yes, Walker Kestler could absolutely, you know they could. Look they could absolutely play together, absolutely, no question. So when you're outlining all these things, how, whether you're doing it internally as the team or externally as someone who covering the team or rooting for the team, how do you go about measuring progress for the Jazz this season? Because you can look at individual players and play Baji and Edwards, which I'll you know, I'll ask you about in a second, but when all these other players just might not be here for the long term, how do you like, what is the barometer for progress in year one of this this rebuild? Well, definitely will system, you know, definitely the system offensively, defensively, Definitely, the culture that's set in the locker room and on the floor. Definitely, Walker Kessler's individual progress. Definitely's individual progress. And Abaj is farther behind Kessler's other along right now than a Bagi is. And you know Colin Sexton's progress and Laurie Marketing is progress. You know, all of those guys who are you know, twenty five and under though their progress, you know Leandro Ballmero, Mkael, Alexander Walker, you know, Taylor Horton, Tucker. I mean, there's a ton of young guys on this team that you know you can develop and then you know, maybe one of them hits, and you know, let's say Laurie Marketing blossoms into a franchise piece. He goes from you know, complimentary piece in Cleveland to oh, my guard, he's Avenue twenty one and ten with the Jazz and it's an impactful twenty one and ten. Well, that's a win for the Jazz, you know. You know Walker Kessler, you know, by game forty or game sixty. You know, the Jazz realize, you know, what are we doing here? You know, this guy deserves to be in the starting lineup. Let's go ahead and put him in the start line Well, that's also a win for the Jazz. You know, Oshiboji starting out rotating between the G League and the Jazz, and then the Jazz you know, by game twenty five or game thirty and say, oh my god, you know what are we doing here? He's averaging seventy seven points in the G League. Let's just put him in a rotation. You know, things like that, you know, and there are things to play for for the Jazz over this eighty two and you know, I think, you know, some individual development is definitely one of them. I think you know some of the other stuff is you know, set in the culture, uh inside and outside the locker room, on the floor and off the floor, in the community. Even if guys are not going to be here. You know, this is the way this team plays, you know, under Will Hardy. This is the way this team acts under Will Hardy. You know, because well you know, this is Will Hardy ship, and he's want it's going to be here next year and the year after and a year after that. Yeah, I do think that's important because and this isn't even to criticize him, but I feel like there hasn't been a lot of just stylistic distinction in Houston, but because they have players who are like you point to them, go oh, Jawn Green is that dude? Or Alpare and Shanguon is that dude? Because they might have just more of a long term asset base in place, it's not as important to see like this discernible. I think this year it's it's Megan important, but like through the first two years, and part of that not Steven Slias's fault. They have a whold James Harden fiasco MUCKs up really the first season, even though he gets traded early. So that's what I look at person when I'm looking at rebuilding teams that don't seem to have like necessarily a blue chip prospect, is if I watch them, like, can I just identify what they're trying to do and how they're how they're trying to play? Yeah? Absolutely, And that's the thing you know, you don't That's that's why the Jazz have you know, they've communicated that, you know, culture is going to be important and they don't want to completely bottom out because you know, if you teach losing happens to two younger guys, it doesn't matter whether those guys are there or not. The culture is going to be there. And you know, it's it's hard to get that back. And the jazz lost their culture last year more than anything, and that's one of the reasons why, you know, that error just kind of that error of the jazz just kind of stalled. So you know, I think that you know, building brick by brick for the jazz, and you know, for the jazz, trying to build it the right way or how they see it as the right way. I think it's important to them. I set the over under before this podcast of me referring to Walker Kessler's Kessler edwards at one point five in the first twenty twenty minutes. I only I only fucked up once, so we hit the under on that. That was the goal, Walker Kessler. Can we get a Walker Kessler hype train check? What are your impressions early on of his game? I think that he's a unique player to anybody on the roster. He's he's got a high motor, he's very very athletic, very bouncy, and he protects the rim well, and he's he's a tough kid, and he plays hard. You know, there are times where he has no idea what's going on defensively. There are times where he's in the wrong spot offensively. But those are things that you can teach. And he's a smart guy and he watches a lot of film. The things that you can't teach, the motor, the toughness on the athleticism on both ends of the floor. The hands. He's got really good hands. He's got soft hands where he can make catches in traffic. Those are things that you can't teach, and those are things that he has. So right off the bat, there's a baseline. I'm you know, I think that he's gonna be an easy ten year pro. You know, how he picks up the stuff that he needs to pick up through coaching, that's gonna that's gonna dictate his ceiling. I think that his jump shot is going to dictate his ceiling. If he somehow becomes a guy who can knock it down from the perimeter, his value goes way up. So, you know, I think he has a chance to be a starter in this league. But he's certainly gonna he's certainly gonna make it through, you know, at least two or three contracts in this league. For sure. He does look like someone who's gonna be able to, even when he's out of position, bust up a lot of plays from behind with his hands. From the stuff that I've watched with him, which is good. What do you view for him, like, what's the best way to streamline or test his offensive development? Are they going to give him like the green light to chuck some jumpers. Is it just we want to space the floor around him and let him try to do stuff around the basket, like which just the best way to use him in year one? Or is it just to explore everything? Well, he's already he's already shown the ability to be a vertical spacer, you know, and I think that he's also shown the ability to finish on top of the rim, which are two important things, you know. So the next thing is for him to, you know, just get the confidence to step out in and try to make shots, and I think that those will come. You know. One of the things that Minnesota liked was, you know, they had him in for a workout. He shot really well on the workout. It's one of the reasons why they drafted him. They believed in his shot and they were sorry to have to put them put him in the trade. You know. So the Timberwolves definitely thought that he could play. The Jazz definitely think he can play. He's going to be in a rotation on open at night against Denver, uh and we'll see. You know, how much time did he gets. Do you think they'll try playing him with Vanderbilt the front court extensively or they look to stagger those two more. You know, I think if you're playing Vanderbilt, you you're gonna want to play. Have Larrey market him on the floor. You know. One of the things with Jared is, you know he's he's not a ball handler, he's not a finisher. He's definitely not a shooter. He's a defender. He's a rebounder, great defender, really really good defender. Best defender on the Jazz called him on defense the human embodiment of caffeine. Like if caffeine us to take any like a Carnivvor would be him. Yeah, He's Utah is best defender by like Miles and miles and miles at this point, it's not even close, so you know, but you know, he's you know, he's got a definitely you know, just kind of figure out, you know, how to finish. I don't know if that's ever gonna come with him. You know, some guys are just destined to be what they are, and I think that Jared is one of those guys. So you know that being said, you know, you gotta have some skill and you gotta have some shooting around him to kind of compensate on the offensive end. Uh, it's I have the same question for rock Bogy. Any early impressions of his game and do we read anything into how limited his his preseason usage was. Oh yeah, you can read into it. I mean he's not in the rotation, so you know what I mean, you know, you like, it's definitely you know, it's it's kind of not a secret, you know, with the way he's played. I mean, so, I mean, with how many minutes he's played, you know, he's you know, I think they you know, he's just done some stuff. Well, I think when he's on the floor, you can the athleticism pops, you can see the athleticism, you know, but I think he's you know, and I think that he's going to have to develop some stuff, uh to get on the floor. And you know, some of this is just the numbers game, right like you know, oh I is a two three. You know they they're playing Laurier at the three. They have so many guards. Yeah, there's wings. I should say that's basically they have wings. You know, You've got Jordan Clarkson, You've got my Leak beast Lee, You've got Taylor Horton, Tucker. I mean, there's just a lot of there's just a lot of stuff between boy and the floor right now. And you know, and some of that, some of some of those roadblocks might get cleared out, you know, by the deadline, and you know, we might get to a point in this season where the Jazz are like, you know, okay, let's just play twenty five minutes a night for the rest of the season for thirty games. But you know, right now, you know he's not going to be in a rotation. It starts season and you know, if you if I had my best guests, I think they you know, he's gonna rotate be tween the Jazz and the G League at least the start the season. When you look at this roster, and we've kind of already discussed this, you they have like a lot of twenty five and under guys, but you can't necessarily pinpoint like, oh, who are they invested in long term? And there's like Bogy, there's Kessler, and even Vanderbilt you could throw in there is there's someone. What I'm getting out, even outside of the sex in realm, that this that will either play a bigger role this season than people are expecting, or that the Jazz might be more intrigued by long term than people are talking about right now. Oh, I don't know if if if there's something somebody that really stands out underneath under under that definition. You know, we'll see what happens with Taylen Horton Tucker. It'll be interest. I don't know if he's going to be in a rotation on on Wednesday Night. My guess is Dad is probably fifty fifty. You know, I know that. So you know, Conley H. Clarkson marketing, Vanderbilt Alantic of the starters, Sexton Walker, Kessler, Malie Beasley, and Rudy Gay probably be off the bench. That's probably your nine. So you know, if you're going if if if Will Hardy plays a tenth guy, then that's probably you know, it could be Taylor Horton Tucker, it could be Nikil Alexander Walker. You know, so you know those out of those nine, you know, none of those guys, you know, you know, qualify as somebody who's gonna have a bigger role than previously previously started, I mean previously thought. But if anything, you know, it could go the other way because Colin Sexton probably has a lesser role than we previously thought because we thought that he was going to be a starter. Right now it doesn't look he's going to be a starter. Yeah, that was interesting. Although if he stays off the bench all year, he's he's like built for that role. I think who, I amn't who intrigued you more than Town Horton Tucker and Nikill Alexander Walker. I will say, I'm very interesting see what Town Horton Tucker can do in some of the lineups that have a bunch of spacing, because when he was with the Lakers, like they would run out units that had worse spacing than like Kentucky in college, like they're there their floor is so clunky, and I think the Jazz are built and a lot of their lineups at least open it up for him a little bit more. I think that Taylor Horton Tucker and Nikkill Alexander Walker both have to prove to their NBA players this year at this point, I would say, especially so when Nikkill Alexander Walker, I think they're tailor. Horton Tucker has an NBA skill, which is I think that he can score off the dribble. I'm not sure what Nikkiel's NBA skill right now is. You know. So both of those guys, for me, when you look at them, they're going to they've they've they've got to prove that they belong in the league long term. So you know, it'll be interesting to see how much time those guys get, you know, what happens over the course of the year. You know, I think the one thing that we know or that we can add that we can you know, predict, you know, at least semi confidently, is that the nine man rotation that we're going to see on on Wednesday night is not going to be a nine man rotation for a t games. So, you know, I think that people are gonna get you know, people are going to get opportunities. You know, it's a long season. It's you know, it's eighty two games, six seven months. You know, So just because you're not in a rotation in game one doesn't mean you're not going to be in a rotation in game fifty. I will say I'm more intrigued by not a long term and the best way I calframe it is I very much enjoy the journey of what he does. It's just the destination is always wrong when you look at like putting the ball in his hands, where it's always he not passing it up for what are these decisions he's making off the dribble. But it's like watching the aesthetics of his game, the stuff that he does, I guess until like really last season I was a big believer in. But it's just the It's again, the journey is entertaining. The destination is horrifying a lot of the time. Yeah, I mean, you know, look, you've you've got to be able to hang your hat on with something, with something in the NBA. So I think that Nikkil is a really good rebound at four point guard. I think that He's very, very good at passing off the dribble, which is a really really underrated skill for an NBA guard. People don't realize how underrated that skill is to be able to to be able to hit hit people off the dribble, you know. But the jump shot is just not there. He doesn't finish in the lane, he doesn't finish at the basket. Uh, he doesn't really have hi mid range game. I think he's pretty good, pretty possible. Defensively. The fact that he's six foot five really helps because it gets him on the floor at any one of three positions, you know. But you know, he's he's got a lot to prove. I mean, he's going to be a restricted free agent at the end of this year, so you know he's gonna have to pop uh in some in some manner this year, and and if he doesn't, then you know, it's going to be one of those things where I think, I think he's gonna be fighting and get a contract. Yeah, I still I wish he would follow through. I'm more of his drives too, because I feel like he could put better pressure, like on the rim, but his finishing has been all over the place. Like you already mentioned. I'm still holding out a little bit of hope. I'll rent a little bit of space on the kill Alexander Walker Island not too much of it. Though. Does this team, when you look at how they're gonna play and who's on the roster to start the season, have any underrated or identifying strengths that you don't think are receiving enough attention heading into the regular season. Well, I mean, it's a team that's gonna be able to it's roster that's gonna be able to score. You know, you put Mike Conley, Jordan Clarkson, Malik Beasley, Lay marking In, Kelly Olenick, Colin Sexton, you put all those guys out there. They're gonna score points. Rudy Gay, you know, they're gonna score points. So, you know, I think that that's, you know, that's that's an aspect that people aren't really looking at. I think that, you know, another, I'm the rate to aspect that people really don't are really kind of overlooking is how hard this team is gonna play. Like, I think this team is gonna play really really hard from night to night. You know. So those are two things, you know, but man, from what I see, this is gonna be a really it has a chance to be a really bad defensive team. And and there's a chance that you know, the lane is just a highway to the basket for layups with some of the lack of room protection out there. You know, But like you said at the very very beginning of the show, there's enough firepower on this roster to accidentally win thirty five games. And in a year like this, if the Jazz win thirty five games, they might find themselves in playing. So you know, it's it's definitely one of those things where you know the way that how hard this team is going to play. You know, they're they're gonna win some games that you know, frankly they shouldn't be winning. I think they might be a sneaky like, oh, this team is shooting a really high clip on off the dribble jumpers when you look at like who's on the rocks. You mentioned offense overall, but we've talked about, like in the past their offensive pecking order where they could have used more of that, and like now they just have all these guys that maybe not all of them do it in a ton of volume, but there are a bunch of guys that can do it in medium volume and do it semi efficiently now and so that might that itself. If they're able to make shots off live dribbles, that's gonna catch a ton of defenses off guard this year. Yeah. Yeah, well, especially Jordan Clarkson. He's he's missed the three point three point shot off the dribble. Cell you know, Clarkson, Beasley, Listen, there there are three or four guys on this team that you know are capable of from the twenty point is to night. I mean, you know Cox Sexon did it two years ago or was it a year ago ago? Yeah, Sexton did it two years ago. I think lay Market is capable of doing it, and I think that Beasley Beasley did it a couple of years ago. Jordan Clarkson is capable of doing it if he takes enough shots. So you know, there's there's there's scoring on this roster. I am very interesting what Sexton can do with the spacing they have the ability to give him. And I have a question on Clarkson actually is this you know he has the player option for next year. Is this something that they could keep around as sort of a vibes guy for the rebuild, because when you look at his age, it doesn't necessarily align with what they'd be trying to do. But he seems to really enjoy it in Utah, which I think is you know, kind of a big deal. Yeah, I mean, he wants to be in Utah. Is it goes you know beyond like you know, he enjoys it here. You know, he's he actively wants to be there, you know. And I think the Jazz need all those guys that they can get, so, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens with Jordan. You know, they haven't been really any talks on long term extensions yet, but you know, the the Jazz can extend Jordan if they want him, if they want to, right, you know, But you know, he's he's a guy that's a leader in a locker room. He's a guy that I think will be a leader on the floor. And you know, and it looks like he's going to be a starter this year, or at least at the beginning of the year, which is atypical to how the rest of his career is gone. You kind of already mentioned that nine of the rotation spots to start the year, are locked up with having Conley Clarkson market and Vanderbilt Olynic Sexton, Beasley Kessler and Rudy Gay. What would be your prediction for how they fill out that ten spot be a lot. We know there'll be a lot of experimental stuff going here. But if you had to pick someone who logs a line share of that that ten spot minutes would be to be the tenth most plaid played player on this team, who would you bank on? I'd probably go with Taylor Horton Tucker at this point, just because he can really adequately swing between anywhere between the one and two or three, and you know, he's shown he's shown an ability to get into the lane and be able to score, you know, and he's somebody that puts pressure on a defense off the drible cell. My guests right now will be Taylor Horton Tucker. Yeah, he's part of my weird old lineup, which we'll get to in a second. But let's this team will be trying to win games and crunch time. Let's just lay that out, like, let's let's assume that that's the case. What do you think winds up being there? Go to crunch time lineup. Is it just what we project the starting five to be right now? Probably the starting five, you know, I don't know if if if I can really project that because we haven't seen them really in a crunch time, you know, Dave, You know, I think that a lot of that will be hashed out, you know, over the first couple of weeks of the season. I'm sure they'll you know, it might not be in their first three or four games, but I'm sure at some point in the first two weeks they'll play a close game that that's a possession game down the stretch at some point. So, you know, I think we'll see it then. But you know, I think that you know, you know, Connie will definitely be on the floor. I think the marketing it will definitely be on the floor. And then you know, beyond those two will will probably have to see I would and I don't know if this is like diabolical, and I know he's a rookie, I would just absolutely have Kessler out there all the time. I think he probably we were talking about worried, being worried about their rim protection and he's like their best bet, not even close, you know, their lack of room protections. I mean it might. It's honestly impressive, if we're being honest, it's honestly impressive. It might be what's saved You don't as a bookie, it might be to be. I mean, honestly, it might. It might have saved his roster spot because they have such a dearth and room protection and you know, protecting the pain is what he does. Well, So you know, I think that you know that that honestly might might have saved this spot this year. You're a will hardy. What is one weird, old, bonkers, quirky, offbeat lineup that you're thrown out there this season? Let's see. That might be tough for me to answer, because I'm not a weird old, clunky lineup kind of guy. Doesn't have to be clunky. Mine is the I'm not a really weird old lineup kind of guy. Like I know that people will be like, oh, well, throw Lloyd marketing at the five where you can't really do that for long stretches because you'll just give up layups. You know, I think that. Okay, so I can give you mine if you want to munch on yours. No, no, no, I want to. I want to fit. So Mike Conley, Jordan Clarkson, Mike Conley, Jordan Clarkson, Lloyd Marketing, Rudy Gay and you know, uh Udoka has a bookie, Okay, I just yeah, I just don't because you have you'll have children experience with the Vets. I dig it, just have to shooting forwards. You can play marketing into three, you know, your shooters around him, and then you know just kind of you know, see if you can have vertical spacing with with with dog get to five. I would love to see talent Horton Tucker surrounded by size and shooting at the same time, something I've just never been able to see. If the NBA, I would go him with Beasley Marketing Olink. And I think I'd put Kessler in there anyway, because Vanderbilt's not gonna but Kesler is a better chance of space beflore at this point than Vanderbilt does it. Either way, you probably trust Kessler even Moore as a finisher if you're gonna give him the space to do it. So I'd love to see that lineup. And it's point guardless, but like I just there's so much angularity to Horton Tucker's game. It's just so like it's just so unique that if you just give him a ton of space and guys that he could dump it off to or kick it out too. I should wonder if there'd be something there. I don't know how that team would dribble, Taylor Horton, Tucker would pound the ball into the ground. I don't know if it would end. Watch. I need to see it, that's what I just want to see it. And I can be like an idiot with the Jazz Lions because they are in full on self discovery mode at this point. And listen, that's that's the thing that is the beauty of this, Like you know, it's so much self discovery to be had, you know, for this team this year because like you know, there's there's no expectation whatsoever in terms of wins and losses. It's just like, yeah, go out there and just you know, kind of have at it. So you know, I mean, you know, I'm halfway kidding with this, but we might see Laurie Marketing play the point at some point this year do it, do it or do it? I would be absolutely here for that. I don't do it. Play play as a Bookie with Kessler and Vanderbilt Marketing Olynic and then I'll marketing has to be the point guard in that situation. Just get it done and see what happens. I have two over unders for you. So if I set the over under on the number of these play, does that get traded at two point five this year? Mike Conley, Clarkson Marketing, Beasley, Vanderbilt, Rudy Gay and Alnic? Would you take the over of the under on that? Yeah, I don't know, and I'm not really I'm not really sure if I'm the right guy to answer that, because I hate speculating on that kind of stuff, and I'll get him to I will. I will say this. I think that I think that if Mike Conley, you know, goes seventeen and eight, seventeen and nine, eighteen and eight, something like that, and by the deadline the Jazz are able to get a first round pick for him, then you know, that's a win for both sides, because I think, more than anybody on this roster, Mike Kindley deserves to play for a winner, and I think the Jazz really want to do right about Mike, right right by Mike. So like I think that if some team comes in and says, hey, we really need a point guard for our stretch run. Mike's having a really all right, Mike's having a really good year. Here's a first round pick. Then you know, I think the Jazz will listening. So you know that that part is interesting for me. He's had I know he's had some wonky moments over the past two postseasons, but he's been legitimately good. And I'm surprised that I know he has the huge guarantee on the second year of his deal, and I know, well the final year of his deal, excuse me, and I know that he's a little bit older, but he's still just really, really good, And so I'm surprised there wasn't more interest surrounding him this off season. Maybe it's a matter of teams want to see what they have like once the off season settles before they go into that mode. I don't know what the Jazz could ultimately get for him, but I would actually be fairly surprised, Like we would have to see him be bad, which one I don't expect. And then too, I'd just be fairly surprised if there wasn't a ton of interest in him at the trade deadline. Yeah, well he's he's somebody who I think is still a starter in this league for sure, and and he's you know, he's still really really good. He's I think he's the best player on the team right now. And you know, I think that he's gonna have a really good year, you know, because he's playing for something, so you know, I think, you know, I think that you know, he's should have had more value on the market, you know, but you know, I think that if he stays healthy, I think he's gonna have a big year. My conspiracy theory is is that the Magic are gonna fall ask backwards into contending for a play in playoff spot and then Mike Conley would just be perfect for them when you look at the guard play that they currently have to choose from. So that's just a team that I'm randomly because everyone wants to mention Dallas and these other teams. I need to go off the beaten path a little bit, and I'm just like, you know, whater landovering him a sort of a short term solution because they're better than expected. That's the team I have my eye on, in part because Charlotte sucks. They're gonna suck so much that I just think, like one of probably Orlando is the team. I'm just looking at the needs. It's like, oh, they're gonna outperform expectations by quite a bit. You don't look at Chicago and get sad. Yeah, I definitely look at Chicago and gets sad. Well, you don't look at Chicago tea. I guess if we don't think Lonzo is gonna play this season. Their salary stuff is just so weird that I just don't know who you end up trading for my colleague, Like, are you trading vootch for Mike Conley? That gets really weird. You're not gonna trade the rosen or lavine for Mike Conley? All right, right, man, you just depressed me. The bulls are said, I miss Lonzo already. They're starting at the plane. I do love him. I like him too as well. He does like literally everything, Like he was defending like fours and fives last year. He was just all over the plane. Yeah, for sure, this team's over under as we record, there's twenty three and a half wins. Now, I wouldn't I would steer clear of anythings related this year, But would you go over under on that? I think I go over. I'm somewhere between twenty nine and thirty two wins with them because I just think that they're going to play hard enough and they have enough talent on the roster to win to win, to win some games, you know. I think that there's a chance that they are four and sixteen in their first twenty with the record, I mean, with the schedule that they have, but I think that they're gonna win some games on the back end with the talent that they have, unless they really perch themselves by the trade deadline. So I thirty two. Yeah, I would agree that this is low. I just and you don't like speculating, so that's fine. I will be flabbergasted if Danny Ainge does not have the purge at some point. I'm just that's what I'm expecting, and that's what leads me to go under. And also because you had mentioned before, so you mentioned it somewhere else where. He came out here about how difficult the opening schedule is and that sort of allows you to rack up early losses while still being not terrible. So I'm just I think I'm trying to manifest. Jazz fans hopes here too, because a lot of them I mentioned saying like, oh, we're gonna be too good. Don't let us be too good. And I'm like, you know what Danny Age has got you covered. You're not gonna be too good. But that is and and what I would say with jazz fans is, you know, only one team is getting Victor went Bayanna and Scoot Anderson looks pretty good. I'd take him. It doesn't even matter with school in it. This this this draft is so loaded that it's gonna be you know, unless you're scouting department really sucks. It's gonna be hard to come out of his draft without a really good prospect. So Phoenix Suns fans should be really happy that they're not going to be in the lottery this year. Is basically what you're getting at. Yeah, I mean, there's just there's just guys all the way through the first round. This is I mean, you know, you know, I know sometimes it sounds like lip service, but this is really a draft. It's just just kind of you know, generationally deep with with with uh with guys who can play. Is there like a team or teams in the West that you'd be willing to say, Okay, they're definitely going to be worse than the Jazz this season, not even making a like necessarily prediction, but you're so confident, Like I think there's probably the Spurs, like they just seem like they're gonna be like maybe one of the most flagrant take jobs in the league. And then like maybe okay, see, I go back and forth, and then because she's really good, they don't have Chet home grin the West is just it kind of gets weird at the bottom. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think maybe maybe Houston, you know, maybe okay, see, maybe maybe San Antonio. But you know, I even think that if you keep saying Antonio together. I mean, they they have stuff there like Kelton Johnson and Devin Vassel, Like those guys are good players and they're really good players on the wings, you know. So I mean Yaka Purdle, you know, he's he's a guy that you know who's a definitely starting starting center in this league. They have guys who can shoot the ball, and you know, so I definitely, you know, I definitely like what they're what they're doing down there, you know. So, I mean, you know, I think that some of the some of this stuff, you know, you gotta let play out for the season. But you know, I definitely think that, you know, with the Jazz, you know, I mean, by the end of his first twenty, we're gonna know specifically where where stuff is going. Because if they're ten and ten through the first twenty somehow, ten and ten through the first twenty, the Jazz runt office is gonna be like, go ahead, go ahead and play as hard as you want. And if they're two and eighteen through the first twenty, you know, the Jazz runt office might you know, say hey, Mike, you know, look, you know, go on this vacation to the Caribbean for two or three weeks. You know, we're just gonna say, as you have a sprained ankle. So, you know, is there any one or anything about this team we didn't discuss that you think needs to be be discussed. Just that I think it's it's really imperative for the Jazz to get this rebuild right. You know, they got the rebuild about eighty five percent right, and that got them to the record in the league in twenty twenty one. And because they did not get the last fifteen percent, right on the margins that error fell apart with a small market the way you are with a small market, there's no margin for error. We're very very little margin for error. So you know, the Jazz are gonna have to not only get the big stuff right in this next rebuild, but they're gonna have to get the little stuff right as well. Do you think they're off to a good start with the big stuff? Just you give yourself as many bites to the draft apple, and you mentioned how much they control with Cleveland, Minnesota plus their own odds are like, you're gonna have some really you know, red carpet level picks here, And I think that, to me is the best way to start rebuilding. And then you're right on the little things because there was just so much just extracurricular ship surrounding this team at one point that just was very uncharacteristic of a team that was supposed to be as good as they were, and they always felt like they were. It wasn't even I wouldn't even they were half a player short of like winning a title all the time. I felt it's just like it could have been more than that in some years, But it was never this huge glaring hole. It was, well, if they had like a half a player better, they would have maybe have won a championship. And so like that's that has this thing to think about too as you usher in like this next era. Well that's the thing. I mean, you may raise a good point, you know, with this team. So with the last error, you know, the highest draft pick that they had had was number five and they picked Ante Exam. So they missed on that, right, So they missed on they missed on the one top five pick that they got. Now admittedly, admittedly in the Jazz defense, that turned out to be what a two player draft? Yeah, that's that draft was that it turned out to be Wiggins and and beat so so long it was probably a one player draft if we're being honest, until I had changeable right, So, I mean that turns so you know that, you know, I mean Marcus Smart, you know I'm talking about in terms of star level guys. Oh yeah, I forgot Smart. It was in there too, But yeah, you're in. But he's not a star level guy. He's you know, he's he's a star level role player. And Wiggins is a star level role player. But you know, he was an All Star, so we're gonna put him in star level guys, So all Star starter. Sorry, I got it wrong. I'm trying to figure out what means more or last season Wiggins being an All Star starter, Dejanta Murray getting the All Star injury replacement. I kind of feel like Murray's actually means more because it wasn't the fan vote, but I'm talking Wiggins earned it and then some in the playoffs, So I don't want did I do? There were executives who voted for him as like the best perimeter defender in the league, which I still thought was wild, but he he was the second best player on the finals team. There's no you have You're not gonna catch any arguing from me on that. No, I mean, so you know that turn So the point being that turned into a two player draft. And but that was the only top five pick that they had through that whole eerror. So you know, they had one other so that they had uh one other lottery pick, I believe, and they traded that for George Hill and that that pick turned North Hill was so good. Yeah, and that but that turned Intentorian Prince. That turned Indentorian Prince. So you know, the Jazz probably made the right move there. So, but the whole thing is, you know they built that around board and Hayward, they had one top five pick. You know, this this rebuild, right, they're going to have a there an all likelihood gonna have a lottery pick this year to started off where wearing a lottery it is, that's remains to be seen. But you know, you've got you're controlling Cleveland and Minnesota's drafts in twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six, twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight, and twenty twenty nine. So that puts the onus on Minnesota in Cleveland to be really really good for five straight years both of our teams. That's hard. Look at injuries, know nothing, yep. So in all likelihood, the Jazz are gonna have more than one lottery pick, uh in this striation of the rebuilt. So you know, we'll see what they do there. We'll see what they do. You know, like I said, they're gonna have thirty million dollars in cap space. We'll see what they do there. They're gonna have, you know, so many first round picks that they're gonna be able to trade some picks for guys, So we'll see what they We'll see what they do there. They just have an insane amount of assets to do a lot of stuff with that the last era didn't have, So we'll see what happens. It's gonna They're gonna be just fascinating to follow from so many perspectives this year, even if you're only into transactions but also just sort of trying to figure out what they are on the floor. Tony, for anyone who may have skipped the intro, or you're able to tell our listeners where they can find you and all the great work that you do. You can find me a T. Jones on the NBA, and you can find me in the pages of the Athletic. He does great work over there. I love reading his stuff. Thank you so much for doing this campfire again with me this year, and I'm sure, as you know by now, I will be spamming your dms again in the future for sure. Thank you so much.