Hell, everybody, Welcome back to desk. The Door's favorite board game design
and crash podcast has always shaped by you. We bring the best nating tabletop
game. Him Kylett, I am the dork. I'm joined today once again
by the beautiful Graham Games. Graham aio man, I'm great, um ready
to be extremely positive. Yeah, this is kind of a positive thing.
So as always, this who comes from Graham's incredible que pod drops and were
guys said, I refused to stop calling them that. It's so funny,
but just so, Graham has this idea of what is our most favorite thing
from some of our least favorite games. I have some very strong opinions on
some games that I actively despise, and it was kind of cool to go
back to games that I have previously revisited and been like wow, like this
game sucks, but to like to try to dig for like the gold in
those games. In those places I did try to avoid like tabletop hot like
not hobby games, but I did try to avoid like mass market titles like
I'm not gonna I'm not gonna spend this podcast just you know, dunking on
Monopoly and candy Land, Like yeah, I don't. I don't have Monopoly
on my list of games to talk about. It doesn't make any sense.
I think if we were to talk about Monopoly, we should carve out a
whole episode to like talk about both its history and the kind of curios stuff
and like whatever else, um, because there's much more to it other than
like it becoming this iconic symbol of everything that's wrong with board game culture and
the like I'm so exhausted, but yeah, well and like we have talked
about it at nauseum already on the podcast about the history of Monopoly, because
I've been obsessed with that because I'm like this, this was this was not
like as a game, it's bad, but it's supposed to be because it's
a statement like yeah, yeah, and then and then its history is a
statement upon itself as well. Yeah, it's like crazy that that it was
stolen like capitalists and then reused and then we used to market the very thing
that uh it was supposed to be mocking, which perrect like it's it might
be the best example of deep rooted, multilayered irony of all time. Yeah,
but what's amazing is they couldn't wash off the layers of irony enough to
like stop it from being a bad game, because that was intentional, and
I just like, so the message still secretly carries through, which I love.
But yeah, so I love a wes Like we're not going to talk
about monopoly immediately we get talking about monopoly, but it's a good interest,
right as as you know, you're talking about quote unquote games I hate.
And I think that part of what led me to come up with this idea
is and I think broadly all nerd culture, but especially board games. Um.
I think that the population m have a lot of opinions and it's all
very black and white, and it's all very extreme. It's I hate it
or I love it. It's the worst game ever, it's the best game
ever. Um. But also as designers, I think that there is a
very positive, very interesting exercise to be had for looking for a critical thought
for analysis. And also if you're at a table, this is a human
as if you're play testing a game. I've been in play tests of which
I was miserable beginning to end, but like the environment is such that,
like you need to think about the person on the other side of the table.
So if I have a game that I absolutely hate. How do I
focus in If I went and had Monopoly and somebody was like, this is
a game I have, how would I tell that person the things that I
think are working, even if from minute one I was absolutely miserable. You
know. So there's a lot of elements. There's a lot of things working
here. Why I think this is a very interesting thing to talk about.
Yeah, and that's what I liked about it too. Is it it let
me kind of re evaluate and revisit some titles that, like, I have
very strong opinions on. Now, this reevaluation has not changed any of the
things that I feel about these games. Like my least favorite game of all
time is on this list. I don't know if I'll actually talk about it
or not, because I struggle really hard to pull like something good out of
it. Um, But I don't think I could let you off the hook
on that one then, because I I have a couple of games on my
list that I'm like, oh man, it's pulling nails. So I think
that I think we can't even say anything negative. I think I'm gonna go
even further and be like, the most you can say is I hate this
game. But then you can't actually give any specific negative criticism about it.
I don't know if I don't know if I'll be able to do it.
I will try. I will endeavor because I like the challenge, but I
know that I will probably fail. Um, I do want to start off
with a couple of stats. First, Yes, let's do stats, and
then I want one more caveat too. I think it is important to talk
about why I why we don't like games, but limit the criticism, like
in like a positive way. I guess that makes sense, like generally not
about this episode, but yeah, of course, yep. So all right,
So I went I went to my my board game geek a Out to
kind of do a lot of this, and so I found that, Um,
of all the ratings I've ever done, I have an average rating of
a six point two four Wow, thirty percent of the games I've rated,
I've given a seven. And I think that that says a lot about what
I'm saying, is that like this is it's it's not I'm not loving it.
I see what it's doing. Maybe it's not for me, but there
are plenty of good things to be had. So that's kind of where I
am as as ah as somebody who enjoys critique, who enjoys analysis, who
plays lots of lots of lots of games just to experientially kind of get out
there. Um I. I additionally, at the bottom of my list,
I have I gave three games or no, no, no no. I
gave eight games of three wow, nine games of two, and I have
three ones. Wow. Man, that that's that's that's a decent spread,
though I have more ones. I think, did you do? And I
don't track my stuff on BGG. I have a spreadsheet that I use because
I've been buying and selling board games for a while. And what I'll do
is I'll I'll talk about how much I paid for the board game, how
much I sold the board game for where I got the board game, and
then what did I rate the board game? Um. I just that's like
something that I do for me because I just enjoy buying used board games,
like it's just something fun. Um. But to pull up the desks and
Dork's rating scale, because I looked at my spreadsheet of games, um,
the majority of games that I have rated have fallen between a five and a
seven. UM, so like which we would qualify as a salt like so
six sevens like solid fun. It's not. It's not You're not going to
write home about it. It's not gonna go like, you know, go
anywhere else, like four and five flawed, but it appeals to a specific
type of person, which I think is a bunch of Like I would put
Munchkin as like a four and a five game, right, Like I think
Munchkin is horror flawed, but it does appeal to a specific subset of people,
and am a specific subset of gamers who love munch game. And I
get it, even if I don't want to play it necessarily I don't like,
but I get it. I have a couple eights, couple of nines,
and I have like a handful of tens, like most of them from
the year twenty eighteen, because I was a great year for games, but
um, at least for games that I played. But I'm excited. It's
okay. So see if I can guess what they are. It's after the
ring, yes obviously, yeah. Uh six drafting games yes, and engine
building tableau based uh drafting games. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of
this on there. I'm not even gonna I'm not even gonna lie to you.
There's a lot of those on there. Uh. Oh man, all
right, are you ready? Are you ready? I'm very ready? Do
you Why don't you kick us off? What's what game? And what do
you like about it? Graham? Okay, So what I'm gonna do is
I'm gonna start by say and that I hate a game, and then I'm
not gonna say anything negative about it. Oh God, good luck? Are
you ready again? I believe in you. I hate Jamaica. Uh wow.
From two thousand and seven, Ye Jamaica. Um, I played Jamaica.
I would with Jamaica was out. Um. I think it was everywhere,
and I think that attributed to a lot of there there. I think
that, um, this is common across the board. But if if people
have a singular bad experience with the game, I think that that can bring
up this like this vitriol. Right. Um. That was not the case
for Jamaica. I had multiple bad games in it over over a series of
time. Um, Jamaica has a great theme. UM, it could be
played by anybody. Um. Uh your board is is is really fun to
interact with. You have multiple sections of it, You're placing things in.
Um, it's got a little bit of a Mario Kart feeling. You can
kind of take people down. You're trying to slide along to these sections and
races are just there. They're excellent in terms of demoing and design because the
goal is is cooked in. Um A lot of games that I have difficulty
with or like, okay, I'm looking for the fund Still, how do
you win? You got to say when you're explaining somebody how you win.
Usually it's the most number of points, Okay, what does that mean?
And so there's a lot more description. With a race, You're like,
it's a race and everyone inherently knows, you know what it is. That's
that's I think everything I like about I was gonna say, just watching your
thinly veiled material so fun because I haven't played Jamaica, but I've heard nothing
but really positive things about the game. I hate, Yeah, I don't.
I'm gonna last one game. I'm just gonna tell you, I might
not even make it through this game before it starts spouting off why I don't
like throtaines? Oh no, my self control is extreme. I also think
it's interesting too, because I think people went on and I do hate Jamaica
I hate it. I think people might also want to know why we dislike
I know, I don't know that. I don't think we can. I
don't think again, But what I will I'm a script around my own role
and say that I played Jamaica multiple times with kids, and there's a difference
for me as somebody, as as a really empathetic person, because I'm so
interested in the health of the table, in the joy of the table,
especially when I'm playing with a mixed group or kids. Um, if I'm
not having a good time is one thing. But if I'm looking at a
table and there's kids who are miserable, like and not just like mad,
but like crestfallen, I'm like, buy Golly. And then my designer brain
kicks in it, and I'm like, why is this happening? And then
i get mad, Yeah, because then I get mad at the game for
doing you get these children. I hate Jamaica. There's my first game.
There's your first game. So this is not a game that I hated,
but it is a game that I like talking about because I think it it
does one thing in a really fascinating way. I this The game is called
Barker's Row, which I don't think. I don't think I know Barker's Row.
It was a it was a Kickstar game from a while ago that I
picked up on a sale a couple of years back, and because there's one
thing that I love and this is not actually what I picked out, because
I try to limit my stuff to like as much game design as possible,
and the theme of the game really appealed to me, Like you you're running
basically a a Barker's Row, like an old timey like freak show during like
the dust Bowl, which I think was like it was like, so you're
like putting together all of these different people for these performances, and in terms
of the people have actual powers, these are not like you know, the
history of those things. Obviously of a Barker's Row is maybe not a little
more sorted. But like the game itself is like kind of leans into this
almost like Invader Zim kind of aesthetic, which is odd. I liked the
theme and I enjoyed that art style. I liked the presentation a lot.
The game itself was not very good, but what I thought was interesting was
they had so basically it's a set collection and you have to get matching sets
in order to claim one of the performers to add to your show. The
performers then give you powers. There were three things that I really enjoyed.
One, there is no scoring track. You have what are called rubes,
which are just people in your Yes, that's the points. So it had
these lovely screen printed wooden meeples that looked like carnival goers. So there's like
one dude like just chalking down on a big piece of cotton candy. There's
like this like this lady who has like six kids. There's like there's like
one guy like two bags of popcorn and those are your points and you put
them on the little bleachers like and so if you feel your bleachers up,
you win the game. I thought that was awesome, Like from just from
a sheer table presence side of things, I was like, this is like
that's great. I like, I get bored of set collection games pretty easily.
Like I know people love their like their sushi goes, but I need
a little bit. I mean, it's a drafting game, it is,
but it's more set but it's also I almost consider I mean it's as much
set collection it feels like, but I'm like the sets don't do anything,
but when you get these performers, they have powers. And these powers are
either like one offs that you can use for a really big, swingy turn,
or they're like stuff that kind of helps you a little bit each and
every turn. I really liked that. I thought it was a nice,
little unique twist on set collection in general, because I'm like, now there's
a strategy. Maybe I don't just go for, you know, playing a
set of cards to basically claim one of these performers as fast as possible.
Maybe I want to finacle it so that I can get another type of performer.
And the reason I think that all kind of works is there's a Strongman
meter in the center of the game board, and every time you score a
performer for your Barker's row, you wind up moving your strong Man meter up,
which makes the number of cards that you have to play to claim the
next person for your Barker's row go up another tick. Sure, so it's
like a catchup mechanic, right, Like, as you start doing well,
like you're it's gonna be harder for you to keep doing well, so you're
not just gonna blow out the other players. I really enjoyed that. I
thought that was like a really interesting balancing mechanism and the use of it as
a strong man like game, like where you hit the little bell at the
end of that's how that's the max that you can be at. I thought
was really neat. So it was a it was a case of the game
maybe not handing out in terms of like it's gameplay, but the theme and
the rules blending together in the ways that they did I thought was pretty impressive.
So I have a feeling that a calm and comment across these these things
for us is going to be like I hate this game. Great components,
Like I mean, listen, you know people like pretty I'm not above it.
There's a part of my crowbrain that's like I like shinny bits, like
its shinty bits, but you know, not to get too negative. And
our extremely positive episode, Uh that's the Kickstarter thing. It's driven by shiny
bits and plastic and like bigger and bigger things. Like I'm so like,
did you did you back this on Kickstarter or did you just know? I
bought it after the fact, And I'll be honest, the components weren't even
the thing. I liked the most. I just the rule set I thought
was really interesting. Like I'm a sucker for if you can blend a rule
set and theme together. I love that. That's my jam, dude.
And so yeah, nice components, but like that, I don't know if
the strongman meter being a good limiting factor for a set collection game. I
was like, that's kind of cool. I mean I see that immediately,
like it's the iconography is so strong, so it's it's it's the bell with
like the strong thing and then moving it up like like I love that.
Yeah, it's it was. It was really really quite nice. There's again
components decide. Like the blend of those rules I think was what was really
special about it, at least for me. And I was like, man,
I wish this game was bad, and I feel bad because like clearly
the team that worked on it like had so much passion for it, because
otherwise you don't go that hard, you know what I mean? Yeah sure,
but yeah, Burgers Show is my number one pick. I don't I
don't hate it. I just I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. Golly
all right, well let's bring us back down again. Um my next game.
Uh that I Despise. Um, I hate, I absolutely hate Betrayal
at House on the Hill. Wow, I hate this game. Wow,
big big swing because I love all right, I love Betrayal. So go
ahead and by away man, Oh well, then you'll agree with everything go
about to say, because I fully am aware by the way that Betrayal is
one of those games that I think, um holds a tender spot in my
heart because it was one of my first hobby games. As I'm starting everybody's
heart. So here's the thing about Betrayal, Um, I yeah, like
you, it was very early in my like real board game career. I
mean I grew up playing like, you know, Magic and um, you
know, Funge and Maggins and like all this stuff, and then in college
I played a bunch of like I don't know, acts and allies with guys
in the dorms and like risk Legacy and all this stuff. But there was
like a certain point where I like looked around and I realized what the board
game revolution was happening. And I've been playing the whole time, but I
didn't realize it was a thing. Yeah, and so there was this moment
that I blasted off and I started, like you know, getting getting all
these different games and like really thinking about things differently. Um and Betrayal was
a game that the moment I heard the premise, I immediately would online bought
it, like in an instant, Like I didn't. I was like,
I need to check this out. Time to say a bunch of post stuff
about it. Um. It's it's a hidden roll game where you don't know
who the trader is at the beginning of the game. In in hidden roll
games, you're the suspicion starts immediately and somebody feels clever, or in the
space of the best hidden roll games, byfall, somebody's sweating sweating bullets,
somebody feels clever in spart the whole time. In Betrayal, it's a thing
that occurs at a certain point. So everybody is going through the first part
of the game and it feels like a haunted house. What's the next room?
Is it going to be something bad? Oh? I don't know,
I'm Scooby dude doing through this thing. Yeah, And then eventually there's a
switch and it turns to a one vall game. Yea. And the premise
of fifty different scenarios means that you're like trying to drain a milkshakee by eating
it with your pinky. It's the idea that, like how many times you've
played this game, you're always chasing that novelty, which I think is a
big part of these experiences at board games in general, is that you want
so to be novel and betrayal has a huge um uh thesis which says,
here you go, I'm gonna give you fifty of these scenarios where you're going
to be a vampire, you're gonna be a slime monster, You're going to
be a vampire, and you're gonna be taking people out. Um. And
so in your group that the tension, the rising tension is not who is
the betray or, it's who's going to be right its ray And then the
game like kicks into high gear when like all these things occur and everybody's very
excited and um. Each scenario also provides like novel situations like sometimes the house
is going to step down into into hell and so you're like losing the rooms
that you may Sometimes there's a dragon in an elevator who's sometimes it's a dragon
like which I still remember that. Okay, so the thing that's I think
that that's all I could say before I get too angry. Yeah, that's
very Since it's not my game, I will say it is a wildly uneven
experience. And I think the longer I have been in the hobby what an
interesting observation, right, the more the more that that experience has been exacerbated.
Um. I will say, however, that I am a big sucker
and just enjoying it for the ride, which sometimes it's a real game,
and sometimes you get murdered by worm monsters in the first twenty seconds. You
know, it's it's a mixed bag. You say, here's here's the thing,
and I'm going to try and stick to my to my guns. I'm
trying to say positive, positive things. Only if it was a game where
I got killed by where monsters in the first did you say twenty seconds?
I would be great with that, because then it would be twenty seconds.
Sometimes you just game is just stupid and random and it's twenty seconds long.
That's great. Yeah, if you can read with you the lines two hours
what I'm saying, UM controversial opinion too. By the way, Spyfall is
the number one hidden roll game. I don't know, it's my favorite.
I don't know I feel about that. It is very good, though,
are you are you a resistance guy? No, no, no, I
don't know if you want One Night as a hidden role game or not.
But I think COO is like one of the best games ever designed. Who
is Great? Who Is? Who Is? Who Is? Who Is?
Who Is Great? It's definitely a game that I don't love, but I
have taught it so many times and I it's it's it's on my shelf.
I own it. But again because as an ambassador of board games, I
like using it, I don't like to play it, maybe because I played
it too much. And that might be who is one of those things like
some you know, like old people have, like Bridge Night. I think
it's gonna be yeah, of course, no, no, no, no,
I've I've played Coup with a wildly very number and kinds of people,
you know. I find it a useful game because it's not really like a
hidden role game in the truest sense. It's a it's a bluffing game.
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say, I it's one of those things
that like I will be at the retirement home probably slinging Coup, Like all
right, so my other one, I talked about Barker's Row. Um man,
let's let's uh talk about let's talk about the DC Deck Build their first
a second okay, right, No, I've never played it, but it
was good. It kept it kept being that the same rule set was plastered
over and over again. Right. Wasn't there a series of games that it
is the exact same Yeah? Pretty much, and most of them were by
Cryptozoic who kind of just would slap some new skin on it. And we
had we had the like Resident Evil building one of the board game libraries and
other things, but nobody ever played them because I was teaching Star Realms all
the time, which a great game, like Stars, great game. All
right, so tell me all the great things the DC Deck Building game.
The best thing about this is that Isaac showed it to me. Um,
delegate the delegate to your door. Yes, yeah, uh, I don't
feel bad because Isaac brought this over right like it was like our last boding
district? Are you in again? Not in his Sadly, I wanted to
give a shout Outasten though, who was Yeah, so that's my frienising But
um, yeah, he brought this over. But before my brother moved to
Australia, and it was like our final like saying goodbye to my little brother
kind of thing, because he's like, oh yeah, he's like he's going
to Australia. It's gonna be awesome, and we're all excited for him.
And he just wanted you to experience the pain of your brother being gone,
you know. And I and boy howdy, I did game. You gotta
you gotta give me team is you gotta give me more? More more than
that. It's actually not. It's actually not why I picked it. Um,
that was a joke. I have a legitimate reason. Um. The
best thing that I can say about the DC deck Builder has nothing to do
with its intended play pattern. Um. It has nothing to do with the
fact that it's like it's got a competitive mode. I think that competitive mode
is abysmal. Um something. I'm doing it anyway. It's a baseball But
I will say, and I haven't even played this mode yet, but I
I think the system was going to work a lot better because there is a
cooperative mode, and there are some systems that I experienced. For example,
there are injury cards, which are just useless cards in your deck, and
I'm like, why am I starting a superhero game with a card that has
no by power like at all. It's in your it's in your starting deck.
It's in your starting deck and has no function. I mean that's that's
a pretty common mechanic throughout deck builders. But starting deck is pretty wild.
Yeah, starting deck is pretty weld. We also have negative point cards that
are also able to be added as well, and I'm like, why are
these in here? All? This has reminded me of my riotous experience I
had with Millie Born. Is that how you say it? Yeah? Yeah,
I had. I had an absolutely hysterical experience with it that I'll talk
about later. But essentially, nobody can start the race yea. And we
played it for like an hour and like everyone was it was like this is
a race game, but we were all at the started line and we get
playing the cards each other. It was just like a race of a bunch
of people with no broken legs. Yeah, and that's and I'm like,
so I'm in are going like why does this exist? And then I find
out there's a competive cooperative mode and I was like, oh my god.
Thematically that makes sense. Of course I would start with injuries against the super
villain. Chances are some of their evil plans have already been triggered by the
time we get to them, So of course I have some dead cards in
my deck ten. So I'm gonna I'm gonna say It's It's strength is its
cooperative mode. Every everybody loves those parts of the story where you uh miss
established into the village is dangerous and we all all storage to be in media
res where you miss everyone getting beaten down. You know, I don't,
but I don't mind that so much for a comic books, right, Like
I like comic books that you know, a comic book can be punchy and
fun, and I don't mind it so much. But most most are most
superheroes, You're gonna be a lot of punching. We're gonna we're gonna fundamental
h what is it? Um? Ultimate Marvel has entered the chat. Sure
was that now that one was not good? Who I was? Like?
Everyone was really really grity. I don't know why they made trying to be
Spider Man really gritty. And I remember, like back in like the late
nineties, like what are you doing? Oh? I hate I hate the
Ultimates? But yeah, Mark Mark Mark Ballar, I think is a terrible
writer. But I was like, what is like, what is happening?
Was like the blob, the blob ate ate the Wasp. Yeah and also
yeah, and then Nightfaller teleports into his stomach and with a shark and the
shark eats him. It's uh, it was bad. It's not the two
thousands, baby, it's something. Um But I think that eleven gritty violence.
I just I think the I think the cooperative mode on that UM again
is a good extension of gameplay and theme working together. UM And I think
that that's kind of cool. So that's what I'll say about DC deck Builder.
I I and and it was shown to me by Isaac, so it
gets it gets a little both from I got through it. I listen.
I got through that. I felt good. I didn't I didn't destroy it.
Yeah. You were like, oh, it's it should be this way
not that way. I suppose it's not. It's not. I didn't say
that. I just said, man, this is are odd. Why is
this in here? Like I don't mind deck Builder's having two different types of
currency. I think Ascension might be my favorite, like Vanilla deck Builder of
all time, and that's got two different types of currency, but sure,
it's it's it's more or less like the second deck Builder. Yeah, and
it took it took dominion and then complicated it enough and then has was was
a high watermark for a long time. Yeah, and I love it as
somebody who owns like that in like four of its expansions. I don't mind
two currencies. So but I'm excited to try and fight against the super villain
where that is it's on the docket of things to play this summer is the
cooperative mode of that struthly because I'm like, I bet the themes of this
are actually really good against the super villain, and if they're not, they're
gonna go back to it. It's on your games I Hate list, and
you're like, you're you're diving back in. I mean, I can't imagine
how many games you have sitting in a tower that are unplayed behind you right
now, and you're gonna go back to the DC deck Builder. Yeah,
you know, here's the thing and we can talk about this later. The
thing is cool, that would be a cool episode two is like why do
we go back to certain games? But like I always go back to certain
games because truthfully, I mean I have assembled like a game fortress, Like
I have Calax everywhere, and like we got the big wrap around couch around
the big table, and I have a U watercolor painting of Fantasy Overlord Jeff
Bezos. Um, that's not a joke. I'm gonna wait, hold up,
let me. I'm just gonna hello and welcome to Desks and Dorks,
a solo podcast in which I uh monologue about Kyle's madness. Um, I'm
here to keep the peace. I am the dragon to his dork. He's
back, come back. I just had we'd like to call content your your
co host leaves you suddenly, and to show you a picture of Fantasy Overlord
Jeff Bezos over a podcast in audio format. You know it's it works.
This goes on YouTube as video. I just want to point that out,
so the people who are watching this, if you're not, if you're not,
if you're only listening to this, you should go see Fantasy over Lord
Jeff Bezos, which is painted for me, by the way, by one
of my D and d players. Um, it just it just looks like
Dune. Man. It's it's dude, it does kind of look like dude.
But yeah, I I don't know the longest long short answer to the
longer form responses like I play games because only people, right, and oh
yeah, if somebody absolutely loves the game, then yeah, I'll go back
to it even if I don't know if I don't necessarily love the game.
You know, that's that's a pretty good transition of my next game. Yeah,
because I fully agree, I like games because I like people. Um.
I think the best games are the best games because of their design being
uh enhanced by the people you play them with. Um, which is why
I hate Cards against Humanity. Fair, I hate Cars against Humanity. Okay,
now I have to say positive things about it. Cards against Humanity has
made me feel clever once. Um, there was there was one experience once
I felt clever. Once. I was playing this game at a party.
Everyone was wasted, and somebody pulled our Cards against Humanity. This was years
and years and years ago too, so this is maybe like the second time
I'd ever played it. And we played it with somewhere in the in the
ballpark of like nine or ten people, and everyone was shouting and throwing things
down. So a lot of the initial kind of shock of seeing a car
for the first time was still there for a lot of people. And the
prompt was something like white people be like And the card that I found in
my hand was this incredibly long winded like get up every day, go to
work, you know, struggle with a job, get married, and then
like die sadly it was. It was so long, and I threw it
down with absolute confidence, and everyone got through like nine other responses, which
were all like off color and racist and blue. And it had the classic
thing of somebody being like, how can you put that? And somebody's like,
it's just the card as as I edged carefully towards the negative criticism.
Um. And then and then my card came up and the room I left
with laughter and everyone fell off their chairs. They were laughing so hard.
And I won that one card, and I felt like that was me.
I felt like that was me playing the game. It wasn't the card.
It was me making a comedy choice, making a commentary on that. Um,
golly, um great, by the way you're doing you're doing great,
doing awesome. When I play Cards against Humanity, I can make fun of
it, and I feel like it could be an engine for my humor.
Uh. And when people put in responses that are uh um boring, I
can make fun of them. Uh. And that can make me feel good
about myself when I'm like, really, you did that card that's so that's
so funny. Man, love the I'm not allowed to. I'm not allowed
to be Like I love Escape because I think bought up, and you're like,
I love Cards gas Fanny because I can hate on it while i'm playing.
Um, that's awesome. I I think I'm done. I don't think
there's anything else. No notes, no notes, that's so good. Oh
man, I will tell you I have. It feels like with Cards Eis
Humanity, the stories about Card behind or like about the games you played during
Cards Against Umanity are better than playing Cards against Humanity. Like that's that's that's
how it feels. That's how I mean, That's how I feel, because
like I don't I feel it's like also, everybody has a Cards Agains Humanity
story, Like I won my copy of Cards Against Humanity at a story at
a bingo night in college. Oh that's cool. Uh well, so yes,
it was great. But the way that it works is it's neon bingos
that you play only in black lights and the like, the prizes were like
ridiculous all and like all the lights are off. It was kind of yeah.
And then if you cool again, if you tied for bingo, you
had to pay. It was like Ninja sword something. It was like rock
paper scissors basically, but you played it with your full body on stage.
So that was the tiebreaker. And that and I was one my copy of
Cards Against Humanity on stage in front of like three hundred people in in a
tiebreaker rock paper scissors around I'm like, who does Okay, I'll i'll,
i'll, I'll agree with you excitedly and also with a bit of side comment.
Is your idea that like, oh, everybody has a Cards Against Humanity
story And I'm like absolutely, And you're like, yours isn't even a play
in the game. It's acquiring the game. That's your story. That's what
I mean, though, is like I think that that those at home it's
not worth uh we are this is now, this is this is the show
hosts against Cards Against Uh oh boy. So you have mentioned your your convention
space and how you are like a curator of games and a um an ambassador
of games to use your your nomenclature absolute um. I got my start in
the tabletop industry by essentially doing the same thing. I got my start by
showing people games. That's like something that you know. I was really lucky
and I got I got in with Yellow USA at like twenty eighteen, and
I had a great time. And where is this going? This is so
nice and heartworm it is and it was I am on the edge of my
seat and it truthfully was like one of the best times of my life.
And I loved it, like I loved what I did. And that first
convention it was PAX twenty eighteen, um, and I was sent a crate
of games by Yellow to learn prior to the show. And so one of
those games happens to be a little game called Raids. What what's it called
raids? Like like rain raids? Yeah? Oh um, like uh yeah
like this like Shadow, yes, yea raide Shadow. It was this house.
It was the porn game adaptation of Rage Shadow Legend. How how funny
would it be if we had a brain integration right now? You know what
we transition started like and then you start doing an a raid Shadow Legends like
now use code the DORC to get sober and eight legendary roles like I don't
even I've never played. I would, I would, I would put my
headphones and I would walk away. I would walk off the podcast and you'd
have to find another. Let just be like it's it's done. I can't,
I understand, understandable, have a nice day. But like, so
I played this game and it is how do I describe this? It's like
to Kaido but worse. Um, if anyone's ever played to Kaido, like,
it has this mechanic where if you are the person that is, it's
like you. It like takes place in a line um and whoever the last
person is is the first one to go next turn. So there's ways that
you can finagle that game to get extra turns. With raids, um,
not the shadow legends variety you you it was it was a circle because you
were going on these raiding expeditions like you were pillaging, and these shadow legends.
If these shadow legends, You're just gonna break, just gonna break every
time. I can't. It's it's so hard to be Like, no I
thinks think about raids shadow legends, that's a uh goodbye productivity. Um,
But nah, I have to be nice. Um, you have to be
nice. Let's just say that the rule set for this particular title kind of
falls apart, but nope, don't fall apart. Nope, I'm bringing it
back. I'm bringing it back. Gosh, darnett. Is that central movement
mechanic I actually thought was a little better than to Kaido's because if you like
the one My one problem with t Kaido was you could there's always a strategy
where you can kind of play to the back and it feels like you get
a lot more actions. Now you're not going to get very good actions,
but there's no counter to that particular play. But with raids, if X,
if some person I think makes it to the end of the map,
there's a rules where they're like, there's a rule set where they're allowed to
sort of end that round of play faster. So if you see somebody kind
of lollygagging and trying to get all these free actions, like, oh,
look at me, I'm so cute getting all my free actions, you could
be like, well, even if it's not necessarily the most strategically viable decision,
you can skip to the end of the track, and it really sort
of punishes them and forces them to be like, oh, I I probably
should have played this a little bit differently, so I thought that was cool.
Um. It also came with metal coins in the base game, which
was I was trying to I was trying not to say anything about components,
but that's kind of no no, no, no, no, it's it's
of all the compones to talk about metal coins. Is it's really special because
there's a moment where everyone picks them up and they're like, wow, these
are heavy, and they do the thing everyone does, which is they drop
them on each other yea, which is you know, you like you're talking
about the Chromagnum brain a lot. But that's one of those that I like
never get hired of where I'm just like, ah, and you're like setting
up the game to getting read for your demo and you and you get to
pass out the metal coins and everyone goes ooh yeah, back up in their
hands, the Glee, the child, the Goblin like glee and be like,
I have coins, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't don't underestimate the
metal coins because I made I I've lost track of the number of like kick
Sure upgrades or other you know, there's like I feel like whole websites have
made their their money by upgrade kits, and most of them were just like,
oh, Bolt, sell you metal coins for this game you don't really
like. I like, but but what I like it more with metal coins
and the answers is sadly, yeah, probably I would like a lot of
things with metal coins. Ah, all right, do you want to do
one more? I think I sure? How many? Yeah? One more
each? I got one more. I got one more in me, all
right, so I'm gonna give you a one. None of these have been
ones for me, and I've been I've been kind of saving this up.
Oh boy, I'm excited. I don't know what I'm gonna be able to
say about I'm excited. I don't know what this is. It's it's it's
classically a game that I point to when I'm on a rant or I'm comparing
different games, and I'm like, don't be like X, because I just
like, I sort of can't imagine a worse game than this. Um,
there's a serious game. You already you already made the caveat. I'm I'm
the wind up this so long this because I'm nervous, Like I didn't I
didn't put on Monopoly, you know, I didn't put on something like Candy
Land or War because I don't feel like those are ones, especially when you
understand what they are, right. I didn't even put Uno, which is
a game that I despise, because Uno is within this category of games that
I feel like. It's exactly what you said previously, which is it's not
the games the people you're with. You don't play Uno to play, you
know, you play Uno to talk to the people you're with. It's that
fridge club thing you bust out Uno or you do so that you can talk
to your friends and lay down some cards and somebody does a reverse and everyone
screams, right, like that's the game, expecting it to be more.
It is not good for you, nor good for the game. But this,
this is a game that I absolutely despise. I hated more than every
other game that I've said so far, and I do hate those other games
like you've you've been kind of doing, right, like, I don't hate
this game, but um so we need to chase that real vitriol. Are
you ready? I hate mine's coming, so all right, I'm ready.
I'm I hate Fleux. I hate flux. Really, I hate flex more
than munchkin. I hate flex more than I don't know, exploding kittens.
Um Uh, I hate flex. I hate flex. Um. I have
so many questions. This is this is so hardy, like I want I
want to know, oh like bonus content or something. So the one,
it's the one out of ten. I only have three of these, according
to board game Geek. Apparently I only have three games I've ever given a
one. Um, God, here we go, all right? Holding cards?
It's nice, okay, I'd like holding cards. I like shuffling cards.
I'd like holding a hand of cards. I like shifting cards around in
my hand. That feels good. Um Um, I think I've done.
Wow, all right, we need to follow up episode. We just we
need to follow up. We need to follow up episode. I need to
follow up episode for my own sanity. I need it. I have so
many questions now, and all of them are well. I mean, you
can ask me your questions or you can talk about flux, and I'll do
my best given my caveats. But uh, because I don't hate I don't
love flux. I don't hate flux, though. I hate flux because I'm
like, it's okay, that's my that is I'm I'm always baffled by its
okayness. I think is my is my big thing. Every time I'm like,
man, this what an okay? This game sure does exist, like
but but it's like it's like the Totino's pizza rolls of games, like I'm
I'm never gonna be like clambering for them, but like it's actually that's not
true. I love pizza rolls. I gotta find it. That's a terrible
bet up. That doesn't it doesn't work. You should have I mean,
you could have gone hot pockets. But even hot pockets are like pretty great
too. It's like hot pockets are like a two out of ten or a
three out of tan. No, man, there's there's there's a hungry college
of gremlin and that lives with me. It's like I love the hot pockets.
They're they're their nasty meat dumped in toilet water. Is what is what
a pot pocket is like? If you're if you're if you're starving, and
you've already burned your taste buds off on the three previous hot pockets, they
start to taste good, uh in your in your dorm room. That already
already stinks of the ramen that you spilled on the rug. I think the
biggers on takers that you just know I got pockets. I don't think that's
a hot take at all. I love that. Up Rise up, let's
go, let's go, gamers. No, it's like I'm just trying to
think of something bland and milk toast, because like like like a regular like
slice of cheese pizza from a slightly below average pizza place, Like it's never
gonna blow you away. I've never been blown away by it. But I
don't hate it. I have so many questions. I have so many questions.
I mean, if you got cheese pizza and you were like extra cheese
and they forgot to put extra cheese and instead they put broken glass on it,
I think that's I think that's flux. Yes, oh my god,
I love it. I'm sorry, are bad and you gotta do the American
thing and be like I want my money back and I want a free thing,
and you're like, god, Americans, they're so like so entitled because
we've put a broken glass on your slice of cheese pizza. Or if it's
not broken glass, it's that piece of pizza that's been kept under the light
all day. Like everyone is everything else. They get the whole rest of
the pie, every other pieces, but there's one piece left. It's sitting
under that lamp. And you walk in five minutes before this pizza place closes.
It's one of those like eight to ten joints where it's ten pm.
You walk in at nine fifty five and they're like, so we're about to
close, and you say it's okay, I'll just have a slice of cheese
pizza. And both of you looked out at the same time, and there's
that one slice that's been sitting there all day. That's Flux. And you
realize and all these see they say, sir, that'll be nine ninety nine.
Here's your card game, that's Flux. I love this. This is
so good. This is so good. That is the most oh wow.
Um So, you know what, in honestly and in fairness to you,
I have also picked my least favorite game of all time. And I felt,
you know, like, if you if Grahama's going hard, I'm gonna
go hard to um this. I feel like this might actually be harder for
you to because I'm gonna say what it is. I don't know if you're
gonna agree with me or not, and I might be like, what is
wrong with you? Why are you like this? But my my least favorite
game of all time is T Dragon Society. Um he Dragon Society. Yes,
it is a deck builder based on Shocker Surprise. But it is my
least favorite game of all time. It is um and I can't say any
more than that, and it hurts my soul. You got to talk about
it because I don't know what it is. Okay, So Dragon Society is
as So it is a deck builder based on the popular graphic novel comic book
series by Only Press, which is all about these cute little dragons. They
run a T shop. UM. Renegade Games put it out and it won
the Origin Award in twenty eighteen. Um, what yeah, okay, great
at one or one? An Origin Award in twenty eighteen? I forget which
one? Um? And basically what was such a drop off? You were
like the award of the whole Show was now because I realized that I phrased
that wrong and like, that's not it didn't actually win, Like they didn't
win the whole Show. It won a Pulitzer Prize and you're like the Pulz
Prize, Like no, it was just his Nephews Prize, Like it's yeah,
it's not a huge deal. Um, and you, Oh god,
this is so hard because like I want to just light into this game because
it's so bad and I and I don't know a good way to be like,
oh, yeah, this is how you play it without insulting it,
because right the gameplay is insultingly bad. Like you can replicate the feeling of
playing t Dragon Society if you split a deck of fifty two cards in four
and then every turn you just took the top card and flipped in front of
you, and then every so often, just whenever you feel like it,
you flipped the top two cards. Yeah. See that seems fine. That
like that sounds like war again. Like these games that I didn't put on
the list, and you know it would be fine if it didn't, if
it didn't market itself as like this is a very important tabletop game or like
this is like an actual thing. I Nope, I can't. I can't.
Oh my god, you're killing me, Graham. But this rule,
Yeah, I know, I want to. I want to like come in
and needle you in a way that like, oh, it's about marketing.
Oh, except the fact that, like I'd be totally honest, I think
that part of my vitriol for things like flux, like Cards against Humanity has
a little bit to do with the culture that surrounds them. Um or you
know that that gets my hipstery grumpy. Uh like uh grunk grunckles up.
Yeah, And that's and that's the thing. Like it it's so bad,
like I can't I can't be me into it. I have to say something
nice. Oh god, um, I have something. It's cute. It's
cute dragons. Right. I was trying to stay away from the team because,
like we do the theme of Bunch, it's too easy. But I
was like, you know what, that's what we'll go with it. Um.
The the art and the presentation are very pretty. The graphic novel is
great. Hey. I love the graphic novel, big fan of it.
Very inclusive, tons of representation, diversity, and it has adorable dragons.
It's just very very homey, sort of I live in a cottage kind of
vibes, and I love that. Come come coming up, big man.
Yeah it is. It was cottage core, I think kind of before cottage
Chre was cool, sum and I love so comic is great. Y'll go
support the author of the comic. Just maybe don't buy T Dragon Society.
Um, well it sounds great. I'm gonna go right now. I actually
did buy a copy of T Dragon Society recently, because every one of my
game group is like, dude, you talk about this ad nauseum. We
have to try it at some point, and our store got rid of its
copy. I found it for four dollars at a good will and I was
like, fine, I will buy this, we will play it once.
I will then sell this at more than I bought it for, and we
were all gonna move on with our lives. But that's my last ticket here.
You have some deep cuts for a lot of yours, you know,
as as somebody who feels like I'm ountain playing things. You know, I
tried to pick things that I consumably think that people had played. Yeah,
there's there. There is a series of games that I played once at a
convention and walked away angry. Oh am, I allowed to ask, is
that or is that violence? Oh? Yeah, sure it was. It
was a game called death Cup, Um, death Cup, death Cup.
Yeah. It was like a drinking game promotional thing. It lived in a
similar space as like your Cards against Humanity. It was like kind of offensive
and h they ran these big events at I want to say gen Con,
and so they rented out a lot of space, made it seem like the
company was pretty big, and I just had the worst time, at the
worst time playing it, at the worst time doing it. I started asking
questions about the gameplay uh and um uh. There was like a weird,
a weird thing that happened in the room where I was like asking questions,
and like I was like, wait, this doesn't make any sense rules rules
wise, and everyone got really awkward because everyone was like so invested, and
so it was like this, this is a complete waste of my time and
I hate it. Um It somehow managed to like take the rules to drinking
games and then pretend like they had made them up and then sold them with
like this big presentation. Um probably one of the worst convention game experiences I've
ever had. Wow, that sounds bad, but does sound bad. Sounds
genuinely awful. But I didn't put it because people will be like, what's
death cut, what's tea? Dragons and fairness? Teacher Society does still sell
pretty well. Um, it's at Renegade's booth every year. Um. It
constantly comes up on like lists of like family friendly games for like for you
to try when you're ready to move on from like other stuff like oh,
this is a much more accessible version of this other thing you might already be
playing. And it's like, I mean, yeah it is, but like
it also with bad like so it like it's it's crazy to me how popular
that game still is. Um, so I thought people would at least know
about that one. But yeah, maybe I should have picked some other ones.
You're right, man, I didn't think about that. I was thinking
like games that like I was really trying to challenge myself on some of these.
Sure, but um man, do you have a weird question? I
have a weird question for today. Yeah, hit me, hit me with
your weird lission. But um, first off, though, thank you again
everybody. By the way, folks. Um, we haven't made a formal
announcement, but this is gonna be our formal announced. Graham is gonna stepping
in for the next couple buts as the interim coast of Desk and Dork.
Yeah. Um, seriously, silly Man, I know I told you this
yesterday, but I really appreciate you doing this and being a part of the
show and just being a friend. Man. It's it's it's gonna be awesome.
It is it already is. I've I've had so much fun of these
episodes where you're like, do you want to do like one of your ideas?
Like no, no, I absolutely do not want to do one of
my ideas. You're a way better, but I absolutely because like it's just
fun. Um, so huge. Thank you again to Graham. If you
would like to support Graham if you're not watching this on YouTube, Graham has
a Never Going Home banner. Um. He is a guest writer on Never
Going Home, which is in the middle of a Kickstarter campaign right now.
So if you would like to see and support them and buy extensions support Gram's
work, you could do that too. M Grams are any other place too
that people can go check your stuff out, your workout while we're plugging.
You can find me on Instagram at Poor Game Ambassador. You could reach out
to me through desks and Jorge's things. Um. The Never Going Home kickstarter
is doing really great. Never Going Home is a World War One kind of
horror game talking about the metaphors of war through one of the most horrific m
experiences in human history, and then kind of the supernatural things that occur being
that metaphor. For like, you can't talk about what happens at war,
there's no way to translate that because in this case it is incongruent with what
the lives that people have. Yeah, and so this kickstarter is called Beginnings
and Endings, and it's a book that talks about the beginning and end of
the war. And it's going to be kind of book ending a lot of
these a lot of these elements. And so I'm very excited. I love
wedding games. I think they do phenomenal work. So I'm very excited to
be able to be a part of it. Yeah, it's gonna be awesome.
It's very exciting stuff. So um again, please make sure you guys
are checking out with kind stuff we love having. So all right, my
weird question, Oh, before I forget after the Rain, you go check
that out on an indie press revolution. It's still doing really well. I'll
be honest with you, Riley, and I still get shocked a little bit
every time we're like Wow, this is still still buying this, which is
great, Like, that's a great it's a great feeling to have. But
if you have not gotten yourself a copy, get over at Indi Press Revolution.
Also, the Fear Within Kickstarter concluded, but we are actually be looking
at getting you guys some copies. We will start once basically, final edits
are done. Final layout on the book is finished as well, which was
kind of a huge thing. Like our layout is done, editing is done,
compiling is done, all of it is done, and so the electronic
copy is going to be shipping out to backers very soon, with the physical
copies coming out there after which you will have an opportunity to get yourself a
copy of a Fear Within from us desk. DRKS is going to start selling
that game and a bunch of other of our other zine games direct basically,
which is a huge step for us as a company. So yeah, although
if you have them in your future local game store then or your local games
that wants to carry our stuff, please let us know. All right,
all the good stuff out of the way, Graham, You're ready for the
weird question. Absolutely. Okay, Let's assume for a moment that you have
been cursed by a powerful, powerful college wizard, and they've replaced your arms
with an indestructible food substance that is found in your dorm. What are your
arms? What are your arms replaced with? And why? Okay, let's
what college food is like college dorm food? Is your arm replaced with?
N y? Okay, so I I picking up what you you setting down
because the idea is that I want to eat the thing, right, the
curses that I want to eat it. Therefore I'm tempted by my arms.
Is this what you're getting at? No, it wasn't, but it is
now that's way better than That's awesome. Yeah, welcome, Welcome to the
workshop, everybody. Um uh, I give it's a curse. The idea
is that you want to be tempted like curses have to be like ironic,
right, and you have a deeply thematic mythological thing going on. I mean,
you know, if it was hot pockets, if I had linked a
series of hot pockets for both arms, I would not be tempted. I
would be tempted to strangle myself with them, so I wouldn't have to I
wouldn't have so I wouldn't have to have the smell, just like permeating everything
all the time. You think you smell bad as a college student, wait
until your arm has been placed by an interconnected link of hot pockets. Um
hard hard to put them in the microwave, So they're gonna be yeah,
like your hot pocket arms, So they're gonna be frozen, and they're gonna
slowly dethought, they're gonna get like really wet and like like sloppy, which
is like extra bad um. But uh, I mean I think my most,
honestly, more than I hate hot pockets, I think I hate easy
mac um. I think I think easy mac is disgusting specifically because you put
water in it, you microwave it. I think it just ruins everything about
like a good craft Macaronian chiefe from the box, Like you need the creaminess
to have any kind of flavor to get that weird like acidic cheese dust taste.
But water, oh man, Like there's noodles just floating in like in
water. It's it's it's it's so awful, oh man. A dorm food
um uh, it's pub mix a thing, and uh yeah yeah, publics
is definitely all publics is pubics is we may gar bread and butter on Okay.
Pub publics all the way, one hundred percent. The number one best
dorm food is publics. It's it's in a container that's like as tall as
your Torso it has the novelty. You get it there, you get it.
You know, no matter who comes in, they're always excited for one
element of it. You can you know, Uh, you eat it when
you're drinking, you eat it sober. Uh. It's awesome and it's so
big and like weirdly cumbersome that it's it's it has the communal feel. But
again, I love come in, come in. Oh, Like everybody wants
to have that polar parlor room where they're an awesome host and with a pub
mix you feel very sophisticated with your public Oh, come on in. Oh
was you like a handful of publics? And there's the guy down the hall
in your dorm who's always like in there a little too much, being like,
hey, what's going on? Do you want to play smash it?
Oh? I notice you a pub mix. You're always in here eating my
puppets. Just picture pillars of constantly whirling pub mix for arms. Yeah,
those are my arms. My arms are the public's arms. Absolutely, What
about you? What what are your curse arms? Kyle? I I from
Mike's such a good I love this. Oh man, I'm gonna say I
give you like elastic ramen noodle arms. That's what I want. I want
like you know it, don't get eight up. You'll get eight up right
fast. You know you won't eve, but you won't insurvive your first class
in the morning. You'll wake up and be like, I don't want to
go to the cafeteria. I'm just gonna nibble on my arms. Then I'm
gonna like slump to class because I was stupid enough to sign for a nine
thirty one and I was up till four in the morning just trying to figure
out what to do with my ramen noodle arms. Very Octo Dad, it's
very ot. Shout out to Octo Dad. Does feel like Octo Dad.
Oh my gosh, I forgot that game existed, man. So there's there's
uh for those of you love Octodad. That company has a game that I
think is even better, which came out in the last couple of years.
It's called bug Snacks. Um Snacks is a first person puzzle solving a monster
collecting game with like just a layer of cosmic horror and body horror. You're
like these weird you look like muppets, and you're on this island and you're
hunting bug snacks, which are they look like food, like a strawberry or
a hamburger, and they have Pokemon names where they only say they're a Pokemon
name. And you have to run around from area to area and catch them
so that you can then feed them to people. And when you feed them
to the weird muppet people, their arms and legs and bodies start to transform
it into those things. But everybody's like they're like talking like a muppet.
Oh I'm so hungry, just give me, give me burger burger, burger,
burger burger, which is like this like this like this spider burger.
And then people eat them, and all of the weird muppet people talk the
whole time about how delicious bug snacks are. Bug snacks is incredible. I
highly recommend everybody go play it. What is happening right now? It's it's
amazing, Like you play it the whole time with your jotting the floor and
as somebody who's tired APAA games, so exhausted by video games because I'm just
not surprised anymore. I'm just like, Okay, buck snacks, I'm I'm
appalled a little bit. And also buck Snacks. After you finish hanging out
on the can playing Raid, Shadow Legends Shadow cool down with the nice session
of bug Snacks and which you'll be treated to monster collection and cosmic horror.
You know, my two buck snacks get yours today. Bug Snacks get yours
today. Um, oh my god, yeah, maybe bug Snacks a sponsor.
So I don't think that. Oh it's so good, I hope so
I love bucks. Oh man, it's hysterical. That's yeah, that's the
episode. That's that's it. We did it team. Um, if you've
liked this episode, we hope you have again. You could do all the
wonderful things we do like share, common, subscribe, all that stuff.
If you can fall us anywhere you can find a great podcasts. I am
contractually obligated or Riley will find me and eat my shoes to tell you that
we're on Geo Chavan and uh yeah, make sure that you follow Graham and
give him some support and some love to until next time. Though I'm Kyle
out for desks and Dorks, I'm Graham Gains and you have all been awesome.
We'll see you next time. Goodbye, everybody, Goodbye,