WEBVTT

1
00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.359
This is Later with Lee Matthews,
The Lee Matthews Podcast More what You Hear

2
00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:14.359
weekday Afternoons on the Drive. Peter
Biskin is a cultural critic and film historian.

3
00:00:14.439 --> 00:00:19.280
He is editor in chief of American
Film Magazine, also including publications of

4
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:23.199
New York Times, LA Times,
Rolling Stone. Also best selling author of

5
00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:28.160
Easy Riders, Raging Bulls, and
Down and Dirty Pictures. His newest volume

6
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:32.320
is interesting to me, and I'll
tell you why in just a minute,

7
00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:41.479
But it is. It's called Pandora's
Box. Pandora's Box and how television is

8
00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:51.399
basically going down the tubes? Is
that a question? Now, Okay,

9
00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:54.159
I'll try to answer this. If
that is a question, I'll try to

10
00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:58.280
answer it. When I started this
book, it was meant as a kind

11
00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:03.200
of tribute to this new golden age
of TV that we were living in,

12
00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:10.719
often called peak TV. But over
the course of the three or so years

13
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:17.319
I was writing it, suddenly the
whole picture changed. And now all you

14
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:23.519
do is read about obituaries for peak
TV. So it's a constantly changing landscape,

15
00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:30.959
and who knows how it's going to
evolve or devolve in the next year

16
00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:37.120
or two. Peter Biskin Pandora's Box. How gut Skyle and Greed upended TV?

17
00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:40.959
Can you trace where it all began? Because I've got my theory.

18
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:47.480
Well, okay, my theory is
that it all began with HBO, and

19
00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:56.560
the reason it began with HBO was
because HBO dropped the network's sponsor advertising business

20
00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:04.159
model and substituted a subscriber based model. The problem with the network subscriber the

21
00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:08.560
network advertising based model with the advertisers
didn't want their products, you know,

22
00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:14.840
their buicks and their refrigerators and aspirin
and whatever else they were selling. They

23
00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:20.439
didn't want those ads to be adjacent
to scenes of sex, violence or controversy.

24
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:28.039
So they enforced the kind of fifty's
puritanical morality on the networks, where

25
00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:34.680
the networks were producing lowest common denominator
programming, trying to reach as many people

26
00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:39.479
as possible by being as inoffensive as
possible. I mean, the network programming

27
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:46.599
was more interested in not offending people
than in producing shows that appeal to people.

28
00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:54.120
So HBO came along and substituted a
subscriber based model where subscribers willingly chose

29
00:02:54.560 --> 00:03:01.039
to subscribe to HBO and the cable
HBO is a cable one of the first

30
00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:07.120
cable stations, and the cable apparatus
was privately owned, so the Federal Communications

31
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:15.360
Commission had very little jurisdiction OVERBO,
and HBO was able to produce the kind

32
00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:21.439
of programming that networks shied away from, sex, violence and controversy, and

33
00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:27.520
HBO took advantage of it. My
theory is kind of dovetails your theory.

34
00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:32.479
My theory was cable television and the
onset of more than just four or five

35
00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:39.759
channels per metropolitan area. Because then
people began to have more choices, and

36
00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:46.159
television all of a sudden had to
start dealing with a ratings phenomenon that we've

37
00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:50.520
been dealing with in radio for a
long time, instead of people listening for

38
00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:54.840
thirty to people watching for thirty to
forty five minutes. Because there were more

39
00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:00.000
choices and everybody had a remote with
an easy way to change those channels,

40
00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:04.000
Viewing went from you know, several
several quarter hours to you know, five

41
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.639
or six minutes, and all of
a sudden, the television channels, especially

42
00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:15.159
the competitive Big three networks, had
to find ways to compel people to keep

43
00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:23.240
watching longer. Well, yeah,
that was that that ability to change channels

44
00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:28.800
was called the dread the dread Ward
for it was churned the h u RT

45
00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.720
just flicking a flicking a button,
you could, you know, go from

46
00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:39.560
Netflix to something else or one of
his competitive competing streaming channels. One of

47
00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.800
the one of the ways Netflix got
around that was by introducing binging, yeah,

48
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:48.560
which meant that they could drop a
whole season in one day and every

49
00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:53.079
and which is what they proceeded to
do. And everybody told Ted Serrandos,

50
00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:57.720
who was running Netflix then still is
uh that he was crazy, But that's

51
00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.959
what they did well. And that's
another thing I wanted to touch on.

52
00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:05.800
Peterbeskind is here at Pandora's Box,
how guts, gyle and greed upended television.

53
00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:11.040
I am not a binger, and
I get I have to be very

54
00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.720
choosy when I'm okay, what do
I want to watch tonight? And I

55
00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:16.240
look and okay, is that a
series or is it a movie? If

56
00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.000
it's a series, I won't watch
it because I'm not going to get involved

57
00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.560
in a series that's going to take
me ten or eleven episodes to get through.

58
00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:28.519
And all I want is something to
get me through the night. Well,

59
00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.959
yeah, I mean, in fact, and the network. The streamers

60
00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:36.600
are pretty much abandoned binging, not
necessarily for the reason you just gave,

61
00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:42.000
but also but because it's too expensive. I mean, a show can cost

62
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:49.360
easily cost one hundred million dollars or
two hundred million dollars for eight episodes for

63
00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:58.800
a season, and if Netflix drops
them all at once, they're essentially and

64
00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:03.399
somebody and somebody like you decide to
go through a whole season in a marathon

65
00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:09.439
viewing session or two marathon viewing sessions, then it's over and Netflix has blown

66
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:15.120
one hundred million dollars or more.
So binging is now that you find the

67
00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:23.240
streamers are essentially releasing maybe two episodes
when a new show premieres and maybe two

68
00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.240
episodes when it ends, but no
more binging. Well, the other thing

69
00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:31.000
with a lot of the binging series
is is the so called slow burn effect.

70
00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.480
It might take them forty or fifty
minutes to get through what should be

71
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:40.480
maybe five minutes of content in order
to try to keep you watching. And

72
00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.720
I can't help but think that I
know it frustrates me, it must frustrate

73
00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.439
other viewers. Yeah, I mean
I think that a lot of people have

74
00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:55.480
criticized binging and streamers because shows are
too long. You know, they feel

75
00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:59.519
like they're pat it and that's absolutely
right, and sometimes they are. Often

76
00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:03.079
they are just for that reason,
which adds to the expense, I imagine.

77
00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:09.639
Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, it's it's interesting

78
00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:18.480
now that Netflix has lost some money, they've lost subscribers, and I guess

79
00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:25.720
about a year ago and they introduced
a number of changes which essentially backtrack on

80
00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:30.240
all backtrack on all the innovations that
network that Netflix made, so they're more

81
00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:35.600
binging. They introduced an ad supportive
tier. They're cracking down on passwords,

82
00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:42.199
sharing, et cetera, etcetera.
So essentially you have not Netflix. Netflix

83
00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:46.720
became not Netflix. Yeah, best
selling authors with us. The name of

84
00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.319
the book is Pandora's Box, How
Guts, Gyle and Greed Up into TV.

85
00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:53.680
Peter Biscuin is with us. So
what is the future? Peter?

86
00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.360
I mean, I know several people
in my circle of friends who have completely

87
00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:03.879
cut the cable and all they do
is stream on whatever device they happen to

88
00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.120
have in their in the palm of
their hand. Is that going to be

89
00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.759
the future? Well, I think
yeah, I mean I think streaming is

90
00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.160
in one way going to be the
future. But to me, the future

91
00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:24.920
looks fraught with uh trouble because it's
like just alluded to. I think that

92
00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:31.000
the differences between network and streaming or
breaking down and the streaming. You know,

93
00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.279
when when Netflix started, Read Hastings, who founded it, sort of

94
00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:43.440
said that his main Netflix main competition
was Sleep. But that was then and

95
00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:48.639
this is now. Now. They're
like a handful of competing table streaming channels

96
00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.399
competing with Netflix, and each one
is trying to get the largest possible audience.

97
00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.840
And when you try to reach the
largest possible audience, you get into

98
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:05.559
that network buye where you're making programming
that is trying trying not to offend more

99
00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:16.240
than to appeal to. And there
are many many examples of where edgy programming

100
00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:24.440
it is being essentially castrated or cut
off at the knees. The anti hero,

101
00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:30.399
I mean cable HBO is famous for
the sopranos, and now it seems

102
00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.200
as if the anti hero is going
out of fashion. In fact, one

103
00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:37.440
of the reviews of my book was
called and they called it how Ted Lasso

104
00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.080
killed Tony Soprano, which is more
or less true. Well, and then

105
00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.000
there's the woke culture too. In
the cancel culture. It's getting to the

106
00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.759
point where, all right, you
don't dare make something that's even mildly offensive

107
00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:56.600
because they'll boycott you or or worse, called you into court. I think

108
00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:01.720
that's true. I mean, I
mean, there are many many examples of

109
00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:07.440
you know, Apple TV. When
it started, it was kind of a

110
00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:13.600
feel good streamer, and apparently Tim
Cook would say over and over again about

111
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.639
the different shows on Apple, the
new shows on Apple, don't make them

112
00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:26.000
so mean. And now Apple has
dumped a number of uh that they severed

113
00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:31.759
their connection to John Stewart because he
was reporting on controversial subjects that were too

114
00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.480
controversial. That dropped a number of
shows like After Party, City of Fire,

115
00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:41.080
and Suspicion, And they reportedly canceled
to see a copalist adaptation of Edith

116
00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:46.240
Wharton's The Custom of the Country because
it had an unlikable lead character. So

117
00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:50.960
that kind of thing is happening over
and over again, not just an Apple,

118
00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:56.480
but on other streamers. Peter Biskin
and Pandora's Box, How Guts,

119
00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:58.840
Gyle and Greed up into television.
If you feel the way about television the

120
00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:01.600
way I do, you'll love this
book. And Peter I thank you for

121
00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:07.759
joining us today. Thank you thanks
for listening to Later with Lee Matthews,

122
00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.519
the Lee Matthews Podcast, and remember
to listen to The Drive Live weekday afternoons

123
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.480
from five to seven and iHeartMedia presentation