1 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,160 We're back with another edition of The Federalist or Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashenski, 2 00:00:21,199 --> 00:00:23,839 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the 3 00:00:23,839 --> 00:00:28,079 show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST, 4 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,399 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:36,079 the premium version of our website as well. I'm joined today once again by 6 00:00:36,119 --> 00:00:41,719 Bill Wurtz. Bill is the senior policy analyst at the Consumer Choice Center. 7 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,320 He's been writing a lot about and you probably remember last time Bill was on 8 00:00:45,359 --> 00:00:50,399 the show. He's still writing a lot about the sort of uprising of farmers 9 00:00:50,439 --> 00:00:55,079 in various countries across the EU. Bill, welcome back to Federalist Radio Hour. 10 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,240 Thank you for having me back. So you're actually just on Fox News 11 00:00:59,399 --> 00:01:02,600 a couple of days ago talking about what's happening in Germany right now. I 12 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,239 think last time you were on, we were talking about what was happening with 13 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,280 Dutch farmers. First of all, why don't we start you just telling us 14 00:01:10,519 --> 00:01:12,359 what the heck is happening in Germany right now? Because I think a lot 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:18,280 of people have seen the viral images on social media and have seen both sides. 16 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,480 You come up with explanations for what's happening in Germany, but tell us 17 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,000 Bill, what on earth is going on? So briefly, before Christmas last 18 00:01:27,079 --> 00:01:33,359 year, the German government announced new measures in order to plug a hole in 19 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,760 the budgets. A but eighteen billion dollars that the German government is looking for 20 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:41,799 that it can't raise by taking up new debt because of the constitutional reasons. 21 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:45,040 They also have a debt ceiling. So the good German government said, okay, 22 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,079 we can raise one billion by ending a tax break on diesel for farmers 23 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:56,599 and also by raising taxes on the purchase of new attractors, new agricultural vehicles. 24 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,040 And what it did is by ending this tax breakers essentially increased the tax 25 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,719 diesel. And the German farmers said, okay, there's no way we can 26 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,879 sustain this. You know, we did have a good harvest in twenty twenty 27 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:12,159 three, but that might not repeat. And if we if we increase the 28 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:15,479 taxes, that will apply to all the upcoming years. And they said, 29 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:17,840 okay, we're taking to the streets. And initially it was about fifteen hundred 30 00:02:19,199 --> 00:02:22,960 farmers and tractors that went to Berlin, and I mean just just this week 31 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,919 it was thirty thousand, right, and this is so, this is these 32 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:30,000 are the biggest farmer protests well by like that since the end of the Cold 33 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,759 War. I mean this is, this is massive and the German farmers have 34 00:02:31,879 --> 00:02:36,240 essentially not even bigger than what we saw sorted to interrupt it, even bigger 35 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,960 than what we saw in different countries last year. I'd have to check on 36 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,199 the numbers because in Germany is way more decentralized in that sense. If you 37 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,319 want to protest in the Netherlands, you go to the Hague, but if 38 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:49,199 you protest in Germany, there's a bunch of few different places you can go 39 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,960 to. I'd have to run the numbers to see that, but it's but 40 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,879 it's incredibly impressive, especially for Germany as a country where these large protests are 41 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:01,400 usually not for like very localized like tax reasons like here's a tax on diesel. 42 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,080 Usually it's for like protesting a war or any of those things. Like 43 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,000 usually Germans will want take to the streets for these type of things and neither 44 00:03:08,039 --> 00:03:13,439 will farmers. And it turns out not only were they successful in rallying the 45 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:16,080 troops in terms of like people actually showing up. But also if you look 46 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:22,000 at the polls now polling shows that eighty percent of Germans who have no association 47 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,479 to the agricultural sector also now say that they support the farmers in their protests. 48 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,159 So even though like a lot of people had, like you know, 49 00:03:29,199 --> 00:03:31,199 had to deal with blocked streets, getting late to work and all of these 50 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:36,639 things, the sympathies are absolutely on the side of the farmers. So it's 51 00:03:36,759 --> 00:03:38,560 very interesting to see how that, you know, sort of panned out very 52 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:44,120 similarly to the Netherlands. What do you think or why do you think exactly 53 00:03:44,199 --> 00:03:47,599 what you just explained that the sympathies are with the farmers in these countries that 54 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:53,439 also see, you know, climate protests that are similarly disruptive. What do 55 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:58,280 you think? What do you think it is that the public's sympathies in large 56 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:00,719 part are aligned with the farmers in these case, I mean in case of 57 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:04,680 the climate protesters, it was also that they made no exceptions whatsoever. So 58 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,439 a couple of a couple of people were in serious trouble and I think one 59 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,120 or two people died because the ambulances were also not being let through by the 60 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:15,720 climate protesters and when they were asked about it, they said, well, 61 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:18,480 and a lot more people are dying from climate change that will maybe dye in 62 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,480 an ambulance because we blocked the streets. And that just showed such a lack 63 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,920 of empathy that people really like resisted sort of the the you know, any 64 00:04:26,959 --> 00:04:30,600 type of sympathy towards those protesters. And in the case of the farmers, 65 00:04:30,639 --> 00:04:33,480 they were very consistent like, yes, we may be blocking the streets, 66 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:40,279 but we are letting a lane open for those emergency vehicles, police and fire 67 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,160 trucks and all of these things. So I think that that also, you 68 00:04:43,199 --> 00:04:45,839 know, had had had an impact. And then on top of that, 69 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,480 a lot of people come from farming families. I mean, if you just 70 00:04:47,519 --> 00:04:51,480 look, if you go down you know, your your your your family history, 71 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:56,000 you will eventually find a farmer and maybe from an aristocratic family, and 72 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,560 you have to like wait longer and go further back, but eventually there's always 73 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,160 we all offer farming families, and I think people sympathize with farmers in general 74 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:10,439 on that level. I'm not sure if this is something that is specific to 75 00:05:10,519 --> 00:05:15,120 Europe as such, because there there's this adage that if you make policies against 76 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:18,800 farmers. You you sort of lose politically, and we've had some confirmations on 77 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:25,279 that recently, but it definitely plays into it. Despite all of the disruptions 78 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,680 and what Again, we talked about this a little bit before, but obviously 79 00:05:31,759 --> 00:05:35,800 we're talking about EU countries. Can you get a little get into a little 80 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:41,959 bit what sort of policies are pushing people over the brink? I imagine that 81 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,360 they're mostly EU policies as opposed to or maybe the countries implementing EU policies. 82 00:05:47,639 --> 00:05:51,600 Basically, Bill, I am a dumb American who doesn't care about Europe until 83 00:05:53,959 --> 00:05:57,000 no, you're not, you're not, you're not. And a lot of 84 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,199 Europeans want to act like the Americans don't know anything. And if you ask 85 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:03,920 Europeans about federal policy in the United States, they would be equally equally hard 86 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,120 pressed to get the answers. So I would never blame Americans for that. 87 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,560 And it's also so complicated that many Europeans don't really understand it either. I 88 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,519 mean, at least at least with the federal government, you sort of understand 89 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:17,720 who's in charge that you have Congress and the president, and who makes the 90 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,560 rules. It's sort of sort of clear. I mean, the thing in 91 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,959 Brussels with the European Union is that we see that when I used to live 92 00:06:24,959 --> 00:06:28,000 in Bruscels, this was a common thing. You'd have protesters that wouldn't know 93 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,480 in front of which building to protest the policy because they wouldn't really understand how 94 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,759 the system works. So I think so that is ultimately it narrows down to 95 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,240 EU policy. So a couple of years ago, the European Union decided we 96 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:45,160 all need to reduce our global warming emissions and all countries need to do their 97 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,920 part. So all countries got homework to do, and they got targets they 98 00:06:47,959 --> 00:06:51,879 need to reach, and some countries are very late on those targets and they 99 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,319 need to scramble to get to those numbers. And they and they think, 100 00:06:56,319 --> 00:06:59,199 okay, what can we do? And this is this is why what happened 101 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:01,199 in the Netherlands. The large government said, okay, we're going to buy 102 00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:04,560 out all of these farmers so that we have fewer nitrous oxide emissions, and 103 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,160 then we're just going to import food products from abroad because then you know, 104 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,439 the emissions are on those countries that we import from. And the German government 105 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,959 the nitrous oxide by the way, that's from fertilizer. Yeah, that's from 106 00:07:15,959 --> 00:07:18,759 fertilizer. Okay, got it. And in this case, the German government 107 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,199 is indirectly pursuing something similarly what I mean, on the one hand, trying 108 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,759 to raise more money to plug the hole in the budget. But also if 109 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,199 small, if more small farmers give up and decide to retire, that means 110 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:34,759 fewer carbon dioxide emissions and methane emissions if it's from livestock farmers, So that 111 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:40,000 also plays into it, sort of trying to reach those targets. I am 112 00:07:40,199 --> 00:07:44,439 not one of those people that thinks that there's sort of a grand plan to 113 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,319 just you know, make food more expensive. I think it's just ineptness of 114 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:53,360 the people in charge. They really try to appeal to these EU policies and 115 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:56,839 standards, and then it is as a result of that they're bankrupting farmers. 116 00:07:57,759 --> 00:08:00,879 But I don't I don't like compared to other but I don't think that this 117 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,360 is some type of Davos type conspiracy thing. I hear that a lot, 118 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:09,560 and I, you know, I go to Davos every year to attend some 119 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:11,680 events, and I think, you know, it's an interesting meetup and a 120 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,720 lot of like you know, policy people thinking about the future of the world, 121 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,480 but you know as ultimately politicians that make the decisions to implement a tax, 122 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,160 implement a regulation. Right, So so I think that that that to 123 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:30,600 me is well, there's there's sort of consensus on the collateral damage being you 124 00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:33,639 know, sort of a means towards end rather than you know, you have 125 00:08:33,879 --> 00:08:39,120 a bunch of shadowy figures, you know, looking at the EU like a 126 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:45,000 treess match in a conference room at Davos. It's sort of there's agreement on 127 00:08:45,759 --> 00:08:52,440 these farmers livelihoods being sort of a necessary piece of collateral damage to save the 128 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,840 planet as quickly as we possibly can. And they have that point of consensus. 129 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,200 And I'm testing this on you, Bill, because you just said you 130 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:01,720 go to Davos. But the the end, they sort of agree on that 131 00:09:01,759 --> 00:09:07,799 we need to reduce emission significantly. So there will necessarily be some casualties to 132 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,159 that, yes, And so I mean some of these events I've also attended 133 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:16,879 in doubles is that you I mean, these some of the people who make 134 00:09:16,879 --> 00:09:20,679 these suggestions that absolutely out of touch. I mean, they just have no 135 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,600 understanding of sort of the importance of it. One of the things you hear 136 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:30,240 very regularly is that they equate the importance of sustainable food. For food to 137 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:31,879 be more sustainable, it needs to be more expensive, and so this is 138 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:35,240 a very common belief that it has to be more expensive otherwise it can't be 139 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:41,120 more sustainable, which you know, is a very one sided reading of the 140 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:46,039 thing. I mean, American agriculture, if you compare it to European agriculture, 141 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:48,480 it's not just some more efficient, it's actually also more sustainable because American 142 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,480 farming. American farmies use no tail farming, which means you have less soil 143 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:56,600 disruption, which means you release fewer CO two emissions into the atmosphere that is 144 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:03,080 stored in the soil. And European farm don't use no till because it requires 145 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,240 a certain amount of pesticides that you have to spray so that you don't have 146 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:07,879 to do crop rotation. So a lot of these things, a lot of 147 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:11,840 these things that policy makers are unaware and then they make suggestions and they say, 148 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,000 Okay, this is the most important issue. We need to focus on 149 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:18,480 climate change, and anything else derived from there is just like a side topic, 150 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,679 right, and we need to focus on this, and so we're going 151 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,879 to do X, Y and z, We're going to increase the tax here 152 00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:26,320 and there. It's just sort of this milkman type of milk made type of 153 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:30,559 calculation where you add all the numbers together and then who is affected by that 154 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,720 you just don't care as much about. But ultimately, and that's what I 155 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:37,399 always say, is like this idea that you know, this is like a 156 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,440 big think tank meeting, right, that was just a big think tank meeting, 157 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,639 And what you take from it is what you take from it. And 158 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,720 I think the sort of cop out where some politicians go, oh, I 159 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:50,440 mean, yeah, okay, but it was a suggestion in Brussels by the 160 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,399 EU ord was a suggestion made in Davos by by some policy people. It's 161 00:10:54,399 --> 00:10:56,399 like, yeah, okay, but you made the decision to implement policy, 162 00:10:56,519 --> 00:11:00,159 right, And that's what I think what we should be looking at. We 163 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,600 looked at think tanks in Washington, d c. We we don't blame the 164 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:09,000 Brookings Institution or or the Cato Institute for the policy. We blame the people 165 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:11,279 that implement the policy. So I think that is important to I do focus 166 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:18,279 blame Brookings and Cato. It's fine, well, no, that's a so 167 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:26,600 on that point, one of the uh, the let's say lines you hear 168 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:30,799 a lot is I won't eat the bugs, you know, goes to actually, 169 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,720 in a way exactly what we're talking about here is what is the end? 170 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,360 Is the end, you know, eating bugs and impossible burgers because you've 171 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:46,320 obliterated humanity's uh the source of you know, self sustainability for you know, 172 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,720 this this climate goal. And I wonder Bill, if you can tell us 173 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,799 a little bit about I actually really agree that there's probably so much in neptness 174 00:11:54,799 --> 00:12:01,039 here that there isn't really a grand idea of what this comes to. They're 175 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:05,360 not sitting and saying if we get rid of the nitrous oxide, we will 176 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:09,600 suddenly all be eating bugs and everybody will be happy and you know us ale, 177 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,480 it's we'll get to kick back and you know, do whatever we want. 178 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:16,279 It seems to me like maybe they don't know how this all ends if 179 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:22,000 they pursue it to the logical end that follows from their ideas. I mean, 180 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,000 they're finding out right now to some extent that it's not politically viable. 181 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:28,720 I mean, we had, like there was an election since since we last 182 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:31,159 talked, there was there was you know, when we last tart there was 183 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:35,240 the provincial election Netherlands and then we had parliamentary elections in Netherlands recently, and 184 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:37,639 what happened there is that, you know, it's a big shift to the 185 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,480 right. I mean, that's just it's also on other issues, also has 186 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,799 to do with migration, but it's a big shift to the right. So 187 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:48,279 essentially the people that try to implement those policies are really not there anymore. 188 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:50,799 And in Germany there's an election next year and if you look at the polls, 189 00:12:50,799 --> 00:12:54,679 it doesn't look good well the current governing coalition either, so it seems 190 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,200 it seems to thinking that this is a losing issue. And the upinion People's 191 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,879 Party is biggest parliamentary group in the European Parliament. They call themselves now the 192 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:07,320 Farmer's Party, so there is there's really a shift in narrative here. So 193 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,720 I don't know how successful they think some of those policies are going to be. 194 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:13,320 And then on top of that, I just I just you know, 195 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,879 again, I just I just don't see this sort of like as a plan 196 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,639 to because if you if you're a politician and you try to you're planning something 197 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,759 that will ultimately upset people, which is taking away meat products and increasing consumer 198 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:30,399 prices on food. It doesn't end up being politically viable to stay in power 199 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:35,159 as long as you have an an election cycle that usually ends up being a 200 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,480 problem. I mean, it's like in the US as well. It seems 201 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,600 to me that usually the presidents that seem to have the most problems of getting 202 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,240 re elected are the ones that go through an economic crisis where people you know, 203 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,279 pay have lower purchasing power. That across the board always ends up being 204 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,240 the most important issue that people vote on. It's like how much can I 205 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,080 afford? And so if you do that with foods, it's another another another 206 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:03,039 point where you run into a wall. Actually, this is interesting. I'm 207 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,759 curious when you look at Germany because one of the reasons I think people get 208 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:09,919 away with a sort of incremental approach is in the US we now have this 209 00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:16,960 vast bureaucracy, and so Biden isn't directly implicated in the decisions of the EPA, 210 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,840 for example, even though he should be. The EPA can sort of 211 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,600 be doing these things around the margins, and or you know, FDA whomever 212 00:14:22,679 --> 00:14:28,559 it is, a Department of Agriculture tinkering around the edges of things, barely 213 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,960 makes the news and isn't tied directly back to Biden. Is there a case 214 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,960 that to some extent there's a bureaucracy in the EU that's implementing these policies unelected 215 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,559 in many cases, or is it are politicians in Europe sort of owning these 216 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:48,080 policies. So I think that's the big difference actually between our two systems, 217 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:52,440 is that for us there's actually a big like the big difference between those two 218 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,919 is the official institutions, the UPE Food Safety Authority. Whenever the Upien Parliament 219 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,960 says we need to ban most of the pesticide it's because you know, environmental 220 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:03,840 reasons. Usually those institutions are the ones that come out and say, wow, 221 00:15:03,879 --> 00:15:07,879 there's actually no basis in science to do that. We've tested these products 222 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,039 for the last twenty years. All these products have been used in the United 223 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,360 States successfully, and we actually have a lot of data on this. And 224 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:18,000 then what happens is that Upeen parliament says they must be bought by big businesses. 225 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:20,639 Then right, these these government agencies, which is all a bit silly. 226 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,399 So I think the difference is that in Europe we have a system where 227 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,120 the politicians are happy to say, we want to raise those taxes, we 228 00:15:28,159 --> 00:15:31,480 want to ban those products, and we're going to vote on it. We're 229 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:33,600 going to have legislation in the Parliament and we're going to vote on it. 230 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,480 And in the US, I mean, some Americans tell me this is sometimes 231 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,200 the laziness of Congress or the fact that people are very politically exposed in everything 232 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,919 they vote on and do, where people sort of shift this to the to 233 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,320 the agencies, and where Joe Biden will appoint someone to the EPA who he 234 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,639 knows will then implement policies that won't directly ban certain products, but then will 235 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,960 shift on the on the edges in order to to not make it viable. 236 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,240 And the last time we talked about this with atrazine, where essentially the EPA 237 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,720 has shifted the maximum residue levels. So it does it wants to ban atrazine, 238 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:11,440 it can't do it unless it does it through Congress, but then it 239 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,360 shifts the maximum residue levels and then it's actually not viable to use it in 240 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,799 agriculture anymore. So these are sort of the bureaucratic things. And I mean 241 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,039 I noticed this because I write on this all the time, and there's just 242 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,120 no interest, Like when I write, when I pitch a piece, and 243 00:16:25,159 --> 00:16:27,240 I go like, yeah, they're changing the maximum residue levels on this chemical, 244 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,759 and it's like it's going to raise food prices. It's like, yeah, 245 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:33,879 I just don't see it, Like there's no reader interest, like and 246 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:37,919 and and these things accumulates, right, And I think that's also what happened 247 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:40,720 in Germany. Now people look at this very like, you know, laterally, 248 00:16:40,799 --> 00:16:41,799 and they go like, oh, yeah, it must be the diesel 249 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:45,399 tax increase, Like yes, also, but it's sort of like it's been 250 00:16:45,919 --> 00:16:49,759 accumulating. There's so much bureaucracy, there's so much regulation that people end up 251 00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:52,679 saying, Okay, enough is enough, and so of that's what happened. 252 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:59,000 That's really interesting, especially the point you made about how they'll sort of escapego 253 00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:03,400 corporation buying off these various you know, byzantine sections of the EU, because 254 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,920 I do think that's part of the problem. Sort of in the other direction 255 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,000 in the United States is that if you look at who's investing in renewable energy 256 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:17,160 at like the highest level, it's oil companies, It's Exxon, and I 257 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,039 imagine, although I don't know that's a similar pattern. You can find a 258 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:25,880 similar pattern in sort of agriculture, and that the companies that are able to 259 00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:30,519 that have the money to you know, invest in different technologies or are able 260 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:41,759 to withstand the financial consequences of heightened environmental protection policies are often the biggest ones 261 00:17:41,799 --> 00:17:45,559 and just sort of further drives the little guys in many cases that are already 262 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:49,519 operating more sustainably and are you know, producing local food and all of that 263 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,400 further out of business. Is there any truth to that bill? I mean, 264 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,480 by the way, I mean local doesn't necessarily mean better, right, 265 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:02,599 I mean I think you do this thing with like the local bananas, the 266 00:18:02,599 --> 00:18:04,839 Atlanta bananas, right, they would taste awfully if you try to grow them 267 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:11,000 locally. There's something something like that, local doesn't necessarily mean better. We 268 00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:15,559 have a global food supply chain, and some things are metabate that better made 269 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,319 in other in other areas, and then and then transporters so and then also 270 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,960 that is often also more sustainable than if you tried to grow to grow tomatoes 271 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,960 in Norway. So, so I think that that's one of the things to 272 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:32,920 keep in mind. But I think the other thing is that the the I 273 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,920 just there's this idea that's sort of the the you know, big businesses. 274 00:18:37,319 --> 00:18:41,079 I always distinguish between two types of lobbying. So there's one. There's the 275 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,200 lobbying of like, don't ban my product because that's how I make my money. 276 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:51,279 Right as you can have a gun manufacturer. You can have a tobacco 277 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:53,680 company doesn't want cigarettes ban, and they will lobby to not get cigarettes banned, 278 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,519 right because that's how that's how they make money. And then you have 279 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:00,960 sort of the the proactive lobbying where you try to get your subsidized or your 280 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,240 competitor to be taken off the market and for your product to be promoted. 281 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,279 And in the renewable sector, there's some of that, right you have the 282 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:12,079 wind Sorry about that. It's like there's some some ringing here for the deliveries, 283 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,839 but I didn't hear it. So I'm also I'm also actually in the 284 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:18,759 flight path. And I don't know if the if, the if the if 285 00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:22,799 the listeners will hear that, but I think and then you have the the 286 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:27,920 business that will try and promote their products to those subsidies. And what we 287 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,519 see in Europe is that we have an organic sector and organic agricultural sector that 288 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,359 is very strong on the lobbying push to get themselves subsidized and to get their 289 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,759 competitors, which are the conventional farmers, out of business. So that's why 290 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:45,960 organic food represents about double the size of the American sector. So it's four 291 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,839 percent of consumption is organic in the US, it's eight percent in Europe. 292 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,319 But now they've lobbied that by law it will be twenty five percent of production. 293 00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:56,680 Right, But just imagine what that means for farmers. Right, So 294 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,759 you're currently producing for eight percent by law, and you'll have to get to 295 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:04,200 twenty five. Now, what happens if consumers don't buy twenty five percent? 296 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:11,279 Right? The price for your products will drop because you'll have retailers selling organic 297 00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:15,200 tomatoes and in all types of leg games and vegetables and so on, and 298 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:17,880 there's no buyer for them. Well, then the price drops, and then 299 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:21,079 the farmers will be on the hook for that. So I think this sort 300 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,440 of uncertainty where on top of the uncertainty of your yearly harvest, you add 301 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,559 on top of that the uncertainty of will I still get a subsidy next year? 302 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,119 Will I be bailed out? If the government program didn't work, So 303 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:40,079 these things are accumulated, accumulating. So yeah, I don't know if Whole 304 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,000 Foods is engaging in lobbying and you know, to get Congress to promote certain 305 00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:48,559 organic food products. I mean there is there are these products. They did 306 00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:52,720 these programs in the US where USDA is trying to promote organic farming, but 307 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:56,680 too much lesser extent because I mean, across the board, most Americans just 308 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,519 don't buy it because it comes at double the price, and he just there's 309 00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:04,319 no benefit to it. There's no health benefit to eat in organic for instance. 310 00:21:04,319 --> 00:21:10,599 There's no proof of that whatsoever. You wrote a really interesting piece for 311 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,480 the Washington Examiner with the headline why isn't agriculture an issue in presidential debates? 312 00:21:15,759 --> 00:21:21,920 And this was back in September. Nothing to like, there has been nothing 313 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,079 to disprove this point in the last several months at all. I think, 314 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,759 actually, really one of the only people that talks about this is the fake 315 00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:33,799 Gramaswami when he gets into sort of the World Economic Forum, Davos points, 316 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,000 but I don't know, I mean, I hear so little about it, 317 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,839 even though there is increasing interest among some of the folks that Viveke Gramaswami is 318 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,200 trying to reach with messages like that, Bill, can you walk us through 319 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,359 a little bit of the point that you made back then and maybe any additional 320 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,759 nuance that's come up in the last couple of months too. Absolutely so, 321 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,200 I mean in the in the in the last four years, the US has 322 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,440 been going through a lot of different as on the agricultural system. I mean 323 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,920 you have you have regularly had the Farm Bill and what will the what will 324 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,720 the subsidies look like? And sort of to what extent is there steering policy 325 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:12,559 where you tried to give subsidies for specific type of production. You also have 326 00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:18,720 the You also had the whole crisis with a lack of pesticide availability, I 327 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,039 mean certain pesticides which is not available in production, especially COVID caused a big 328 00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:26,759 shortage in that world and and that meant, you know, reduction in yields. 329 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:33,359 So farmers have been struggling. And also there is now pushes in New 330 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,960 York State they ban neonic insecticides because they think it harmed the bees, which 331 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:40,960 has no basis and science whatsoever, but they're going to do it anyway because 332 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,480 it's New York State. That's been my understanding in California is a bit like 333 00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:48,319 that too, So there's there's a lot of pushes to become a lot more 334 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,920 like Europe. A few years ago, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren had a 335 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,079 piece of legislation in the Senate that would essentially copypaste every single agricultural regulation from 336 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:03,960 Europe into the American legal system, which meant identity like identicalism, which would 337 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,279 which would make trade, I assume, easier, but it would significantly raise 338 00:23:08,279 --> 00:23:11,960 food prices for Americans. So so a lot of that has been going on. 339 00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:15,799 I just don't hear it being talked about. Usually the only people who 340 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:21,519 talk about this, I know, Corey Booker once had an opinion video in 341 00:23:21,559 --> 00:23:25,680 the New York Times where he essentially blamed oh yeah, climate change on factory 342 00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:29,799 farming, which is just you know, unhinged and just you know, not 343 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,400 based in science whatsoever. He's a vegan, so we know he's unhinged. 344 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,000 Oh fair enough. I didn't. I didn't know that out to him. 345 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,240 I mean, if people decide voluntarily to eat a certain way, that as 346 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,200 if it's not forced and subsidized with everyone else's money, that's that's all good 347 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,000 for me. But yeah, So there's a few of these politicians in presidential 348 00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:51,599 debates, nobody even asks a question about this, and it makes me makes 349 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,839 me wonder, is there a lack of awareness on behalf of the moderators? 350 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,960 Is it not a campaign issue whatsoever? Is it not a winning issue to 351 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,680 have the farmers on your side? Is that only for the Iowa Caucus? 352 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,799 And then that's it. I just don't understand there. It's ethanol. I 353 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:08,240 mean, that's the only that's like, to the extent that agriculture comes up 354 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,680 in Iowa, it's ethanol. And I mean, like Rhanda Santis has kind 355 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,680 of gone back and forth on ethanol, and it's very interesting someone coming from 356 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,799 the Freedom Caucus. I mean, it's just ethanol has always been fascinating. 357 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,640 But even that, it's all they talk about when it comes to Iowa. 358 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,680 It's all Republicans debate. And that to me is so strange because, I 359 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,160 mean, American food products are also being exported around the world. I mean, 360 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,759 you it's not it's not just that you produce for the domestic market. 361 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:38,400 It's it's very valuable international products, and people value having food products from the 362 00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:42,079 US. Unfortunately not here in Europe because we still don't have a trade deal. 363 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,599 We wish we did, I think, but but I think on both 364 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:49,279 sides there have been some reservations in the past. But I just, you 365 00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:52,440 know, I just don't see that being talked about enough. And I and 366 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,400 I and I wonder, I mean, to some extent, the present is 367 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,079 also not supposed to have a lot of saying this. Ultimately, this should 368 00:24:57,079 --> 00:25:02,160 be all legislation from Congress determining, you know, what the rules are in 369 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,279 the agricultural system. But in reality, we've seen that presidents make significant decisions. 370 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,079 On the Obama administration, a lot of proper protection chemicals were outlawed, 371 00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:14,559 and then Trump came in and he reversed all of it, and now Biden 372 00:25:14,599 --> 00:25:18,119 came back, and did you know, Obama two point oh, all of 373 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,880 this keeps happening. It never comes up. I don't even not even in 374 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,680 the sort of the not even in sort of the races for Congress, do 375 00:25:26,799 --> 00:25:30,960 I really see that being talked about as an issue. And I wonder if 376 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,640 it's a lack of interest, or or just because farmers also themselves believe that 377 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,039 they don't actually have a voice, but maybe they don't protest enough. I've 378 00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:41,960 been asked this question a few a few times now over the last few days, 379 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,160 and it seems to me that maybe farmers in the United States just don't 380 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,480 don't don't think of themselves as as a relevant enough political voice that if they 381 00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:55,240 protested something were to happen. Maybe maybe that's part of it. Is it 382 00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:59,960 also maybe consolidation in agriculture, and that you know, there are so many 383 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,920 people who are farming are represented by the big guys because the servans snatched up 384 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,880 by the big guys, at least the United States. I don't know if 385 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,079 that's true in Europe. I think probably there are still a lot of smaller 386 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:12,839 farms in Europe, maybe more, maybe less, But I have to imagine 387 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,240 that's has something to do with it too. I mean, well, yeah, 388 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,680 the farms are a lot smaller in Europe. That I mean that also 389 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,720 has traditionally historical reasons also, right, I mean, if you were if 390 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:29,880 you were settling in the United States and you started a farming like, you 391 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,079 had all this space available, while in Europe we'd already been fighting over sort 392 00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:37,720 of who has worked for for for hundreds of years before that. And also 393 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:40,480 like some of the farms you know, I mean if you look at farms 394 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,039 in Switzerland, you're looking at a significant altitude change. Also, like when 395 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:48,160 I fly over the United States, I just look at this amount. I 396 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,400 mean, you couldn't even Like in the last few days, a lot of 397 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,559 people, it was a Greenpeace said, for instance, we should use electric 398 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,480 tractors instead of diesel tractors, and I was just imagining, and I was 399 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,000 when you run the numbers, an electric tractor could even reach the end of 400 00:27:00,039 --> 00:27:06,400 the field in most plastic farms just by virtue just not having enough battery power. 401 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,279 And Europe you could sort of imagine it if they weren't so expensive. 402 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,759 But yeah, so there's there's a different size in that too. So yes, 403 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:17,759 you do end up having more farmers or so as like is a large 404 00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:22,160 part is this family businesses. I mean these are generations, like people who 405 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,839 have been in that business for generation. It's more I mean it's I don't 406 00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:27,200 like the word factory farm, but I mean it's it's it's on a much 407 00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:33,240 larger scale in the United States, absolutely, But the thousands of people who 408 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:36,839 work in that sector not just farmers, right, it's all engineers, people 409 00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:40,680 who think the electricity, people who do the logistics, who drive the trucks, 410 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,599 people who feed the animals. I mean, it's like it's all of 411 00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,640 those things. Not everything is mechanical, and you need still a lot of 412 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,400 people who work in the sector, and and and and and sort of that 413 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,400 seems to not be a voting block, but maybe they don't think of themselves 414 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,759 as a voting block. Also because in the Netherlands it has become not just 415 00:27:57,799 --> 00:28:03,359 a voting block but a genuine political party. Well that's an interesting point because 416 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,599 it's almost i think, for a lot of people in farming communities, and 417 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,920 to your point, like it's not just the farmers themselves, it's these entire 418 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:18,759 ecosystems, social ecosystems that are reliant on what the farms are producing. I 419 00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:25,079 feel like they maybe have priorities above they vote on things that are different. 420 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,480 And that's not to say that the farming isn't part of it, but it's 421 00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:32,279 to say that it feels like, and maybe this is what's recently happened in 422 00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:38,160 Europe, it never felt quite existential, and it looks like EU regulations are 423 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,160 now making it feel existential. And meanwhile, in the US, I'm be 424 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,880 curious for your thoughts on this too. When you know, they were trying 425 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,880 to pass year end legislation. The farm Bill, to my understanding, got 426 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,720 renewed and punted for a year. Basically, I think it was a full 427 00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:59,519 year. I think got a full year extension, which is highly unusual but 428 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:04,279 speaks the sort of autopilot that American politics is on when it comes to the 429 00:29:04,759 --> 00:29:10,920 you know, just big ag and all of that. Yeah, it's it's 430 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,799 it's I mean, the farm Bill is something that I that I that I 431 00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:17,599 follow to some extent. It's it's it's it's interesting to me that you know, 432 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,799 as a policy you have to have these constant renewals, but then you 433 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,640 don't hear it really being talked about a lot, right, You don't hear 434 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,240 significant debates. So what is the future until the year of Right, like 435 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:33,440 you will get a debate about the farm bill on you know, page twenty 436 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,640 four of the paper the year of the Farm Bill's renewal. And that's it 437 00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:41,799 And something that somebody needs to explain to me. Maybe you can help me. 438 00:29:42,079 --> 00:29:47,640 What is it with the American political system packing into things into bills that 439 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,319 have nothing to do with the title. I mean, in some Europeans are 440 00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:55,400 trying to do that but I mean it's like the infrastructure bill had things about 441 00:29:56,279 --> 00:30:02,200 I mean, it's like sponsorship for theaters, and just there seems to be 442 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,319 And because then when you vote against it on merits that might be good, 443 00:30:06,519 --> 00:30:08,799 it always gets construed as you've also voted against these other parts of it. 444 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,720 That is Yeah, I mean it's a super easy explanation here, which is 445 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,079 that we simply cannot pass enough legislation to deal with the country's business on an 446 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:22,519 individual basis. So there's just not enough political will to tackle all of these 447 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,839 different issues. So if you throw them into a really big bill, you're 448 00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:30,200 able to use it as sort of a pawn as the president wants to get 449 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,039 an infrastructure package passed. It's a really sad statement on the sort of Republican 450 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:38,799 system of tracks and balances that that is certainly interesting. And I mean, 451 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,880 since you mentioned Republicans, I mean, Republicans have gotten the support of farmers, 452 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,920 I mean across the board. If you just look at the polling on 453 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:52,920 farmers and overwhelmingly support Republican presidents kind of for president, maybe Republicans have also 454 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,000 taken sort of that support for granted. And as a result of that, 455 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,759 that is maybe why it's an autopilots and I think Democrats do that with sort 456 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:03,759 of you know, their voting blocks also, where it's like they've always voted 457 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,920 our way, so you know, it's like we can just kind of count 458 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,119 them in and then not address this issue. And the question is like for 459 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,039 me, is like, how what is sort of the breaking point? Eventually 460 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:18,160 there will be like this one measure, right. I mean, it's just 461 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,000 like in the Netherlands with the with the land buy back and then Germany with 462 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:22,559 the diesel tanks, Like what is it going to be in the United States 463 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,720 where farmers go like, oh, okay, no, it's enough now, 464 00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:30,400 right, Yeah. And I actually think that's such a interesting point because again, 465 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,960 American farmers, I feel like their support for Republicans has come from this 466 00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:44,119 sort of larger cultural feeling that Republicans are kind of with them, and maybe 467 00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:48,039 all their policies on farming aren't with them. Some might be, but you 468 00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:52,839 know, that's the general kind of just that in this big culture war that 469 00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:56,319 feels like essential here in the United States, Republicans, including Trump, who 470 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:00,720 and build This is actually going to be my next question to you, because 471 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:06,240 it looks like we're heading towards another Trump nomination. Trump handled it better than 472 00:32:06,319 --> 00:32:09,319 I think a lot of other Republican candidates said politically, I'm not talking about 473 00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:14,000 the policy, but he sort of understood something that was happening in the middle 474 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,799 of the country in a way a lot of other people didn't. What does 475 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,960 your take. We're almost ten years in a Trump is so this is a 476 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,119 huge question, Bill, But what is your take on how Trump has handled 477 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:27,799 this question of the last almost decade? So on the on the you know, 478 00:32:27,839 --> 00:32:31,559 the domestic regulatory issues, he undid a lot of the policies that were 479 00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:35,319 implemented by Obama on the you know, the e b A and USDA, 480 00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:45,240 a lot of bands that were necessary and made it unjustifiably difficult to protect your 481 00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:50,519 your farms, like your your crops against the pests, whether it be whether 482 00:32:50,559 --> 00:32:57,039 it be rodents or parasizes that became increasingly difficult on the Obama and Trump undid 483 00:32:57,079 --> 00:32:59,079 a lot of that, which I mean, I don't know if he, 484 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,839 if you understood the issue, whether he just signed it. But I think 485 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,279 on the food issue, where you know, I'm disappointed, you know in 486 00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,720 sort of the Trump is a part of it is is trade. I just 487 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,440 maybe maybe I'm from the from the philosophy that you know that trade is always 488 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,200 good. Maybe I'm old fashioned in that sense for many Americans. I just 489 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,319 don't. I just I just don't see the reason why this idea that all 490 00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:30,079 trade must be automatically a losing game for the United States, Why why that 491 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,039 is such a strong believe and sort of the Trump side of things. I 492 00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:38,240 just I think it's it's unfortunate because we had a chance under the Obama administration 493 00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:42,160 of passing it. Then it was our mistake that it failed. This tt 494 00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:47,119 I P that transer, the Transatlantic International Partnership something like that, as all 495 00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:51,680 these acronyms, but it failed because of us, it felt because of Europeans. 496 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,759 We we ultimately thought that American products were going to be too competitive for 497 00:33:54,799 --> 00:34:00,119 our markets. And now it's sort of like on on on on GMOs and 498 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,400 gene editing. We're moving in a different direction, you know, accepting sort 499 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,519 of the scientific, scientific realities on that, and that's going to become legal 500 00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:09,440 over the next few years, which means we sort of on the regulatory front 501 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,920 on that, and we're going to get closer together. And I just feel 502 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,840 like there should be there should be pushed by Republicans to to have more trade 503 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,440 because we have great European products that you know, taste great and should be 504 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,440 available on the American market, and and and the other way around as well. 505 00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:30,880 And I think competition is good. We won a competitive marketplace, including 506 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:36,760 from abroad. So I just I think that's I find that disappointing ultimately Trump, 507 00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:42,119 But there was there was I'm from Wisconsin with lie of trade with Canada, 508 00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:45,440 Gary farmers, and that there was a legitimate point. And that's not 509 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:49,559 to say that it was prosecuted, because I'm not a trade expert, but 510 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:55,679 it was true that Trump had been set up by some sort of years of 511 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,239 policies that weren't exactly or trade deals that weren't exactly actually set up in the 512 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,880 best interests of everyone in the United States, and then he was able to 513 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,119 kind of tap into that and whether or not the results, you had a 514 00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:09,840 lot of farmers who were getting a little anxious towards the end of the Trump 515 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,039 administration supported him. Soybean farmers all that you talk to them in the middle 516 00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:17,920 of the trade war, and they'd say, we're with him, We're holding 517 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,159 out. But then towards the end of the administration. It kept going on 518 00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:23,840 and on, and so who knows, you know what a second term would 519 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,360 have brought in that. But I feel like he had been politically delta hand 520 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,559 of cards that he played somewhat defintely. When he was talking about bad trade 521 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:37,000 deals of the past. What he was been woining is managed trade. And 522 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:42,199 I think that's I think it's it's a good point to make here, because 523 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,440 a lot of these trade deals get concluded, and you know, the sort 524 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:46,920 of the deal, if you put it in a book, size would be 525 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,039 you know, very very large. You could reach, could reach the height 526 00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:54,760 of a person, all to say that we will freely trade with each other, 527 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,440 right as to two blocks of countries. I never quite understand that they 528 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,360 don't need to be this many rules. But what happens in these kind of 529 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,639 negotiations is that one site says, oh, okay, but you're producing way 530 00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:07,280 too much beef. That will be too much competition. So we're going to 531 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,920 do We're gonna put a quota on beef so you can only export x amount 532 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,480 of beef like kilos of beef to the European market. And then you guys 533 00:36:16,519 --> 00:36:20,400 say, well, I mean, but you make way too much weeds, 534 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,920 and that might be a difficulty for the American markets. So what we're going 535 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,039 to do is we're going to put a quota, and so you end up 536 00:36:25,079 --> 00:36:31,159 with these very complicated rule books that benefit some people at the expense of others. 537 00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:35,039 And that is sort of the managed trade. What I believe in is 538 00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:38,119 sort of the real free trade, where we go, okay, we accept 539 00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:44,679 each other's standards. So Europeans moaning about cows, you know, with hormone 540 00:36:44,679 --> 00:36:47,559 treatment and these things, they will know that it's from the US and they 541 00:36:47,559 --> 00:36:52,960 can make their choices in the supermarket. And Americans being afraid of a moldy 542 00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:54,239 French cheese, they don't have to buy it if they don't want to, 543 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,280 but they will be available in their supermarkets. Right, And then we say, 544 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,840 okay, we accept each other's food product, and you know, and 545 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,400 we see how it goes, and you know, the best the best product 546 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,880 will win. So I'm on, I'm on that side of that equation. 547 00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:10,880 I mean, it's I mean, it was very silly. I mean, 548 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,880 I'm sorry over the Trump we years we had in Europe. We had tariffs 549 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:22,079 on Harley Davidson and Jack Daniels whiskey and you know, blue jeans and all 550 00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:27,159 of these symbolic things that are so petty and cost both of us because you 551 00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:29,519 know, if you put it, if you put a tariff on European products, 552 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:31,519 it's your consumers also that have to pay more for for those ones if 553 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:36,000 they want to. And that doesn't necessarily mean they will buy those local that 554 00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:39,960 does. There's this equation that just because the foreign product will be more expensive, 555 00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:44,679 now the consumer will shift to the local product and only by American. 556 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:49,519 That's sort of misunderstanding how some consumers view their consumption. Maybe they just some 557 00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:53,639 people love Argentinian beefy. They will eat a steak, but only if it's 558 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:59,199 from Argentina. They won't necessarily eat an American steak just because you made it 559 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:04,079 even more expensive to buy Argentinan beef. Right, So I think that's sort 560 00:38:04,119 --> 00:38:08,360 of this decentralized Oh, we're going to centrally plan what the best way is 561 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,960 to let goods go in and out of the country. This seem to me 562 00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:16,320 it's very reminiscent of a time when we thought we could plan the economy and 563 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,719 I'm not on that side of the equator. So Trump is net positive for 564 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:27,119 farming, possibly yes, But on the trade issue, I think it's just 565 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,039 you know, to me, it's failed policy. And the only thing I'll 566 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:34,039 say is a rebuttal of that that I can as a total non expert, 567 00:38:34,159 --> 00:38:37,639 is that it reminds me of exactly what you were talking about with the sort 568 00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:43,960 of enigma of American legislation estensibly being about one thing but also being chock full 569 00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:49,280 of things on different subjects. Is that it's cronyism. It's the revolving door. 570 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,760 It's that the lobbyists who left Big egg or Big Pharma or whatever, 571 00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:59,360 now are you know, they're the ones that are working these bills, massaging 572 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,280 these bills as Congress contemplates them, and saying, you can get this theater 573 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,480 provision into the infrastructure mode, you can get this carve out into the infrastructure 574 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:08,760 boat cetera, et cetera. And so Trump comes in and it's like, 575 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,599 listen, if we're going to have a Cronius system, we might as well 576 00:39:12,639 --> 00:39:17,239 have a Cronius system that is at least directionally beneficial to Americans. And I 577 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,159 don't know, to me, it almost seems like farmers have made their peace 578 00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:23,519 with the Cronius system and have said all right, if we're going to do 579 00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:25,519 it that way, We're going to do it that way, and there is 580 00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:35,440 no future towards this like idealized world of free trade because there's it's sort of 581 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:40,000 defeatism. I don't know if that makes sense. The system it's been erected 582 00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:45,119 now means essentially that you have to lobby for your interest, whether it's you're 583 00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:47,280 trying to prevent something or because you're trying to gain an advantage. I mean, 584 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,119 there's a story of Microsoft. Microsoft when it started never had an office 585 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:54,840 in Washington, DC. It just didn't think it was necessary until some of 586 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,400 its competitors tried to ban its browsers from being available on some of the device 587 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,559 and then Microsoft had to start lobbying Congress also. And farmers have to lobby 588 00:40:02,599 --> 00:40:07,960 Congress also because they like to get access to certain subsidies. The ideal administration 589 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:15,480 would look at a way to wean people off these different subsidies and regulations that 590 00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:17,800 benefit one at the at the expense of another, and then we totally agree 591 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:23,599 your market competition and this whole lobbying is I don't I don't think in all 592 00:40:23,639 --> 00:40:28,039 cases is the reason for the bad policy or often it's the symptom of the 593 00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:31,079 bad policy like we we we this is patchwork where we try to fix one 594 00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:36,239 problem with a new rule, and nobody ever cuts anything right. I mean, 595 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,280 you always get applause and you get to put your name on a bill 596 00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:43,559 if you make a bill. You never get you don't really get recognition if 597 00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:45,960 you get rid of something right. I mean, to me, Carter is 598 00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:52,280 underappreciated because he was a big regulation cutter, and to some extent more so 599 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,400 then than Ronald Reagan was. But I mean these things because you don't you 600 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,840 don't think about those issues a lot, because you don't get cognition if you 601 00:41:00,039 --> 00:41:04,320 if you get rid of a piece of legislation. I think Europe it is. 602 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,719 I mean, Europe is far worse. Europe it's I mean, France 603 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,239 it's just done. I mean, we might as well give up on the 604 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:15,519 whole country. No, I mean it's no, but it's it's getting pretty 605 00:41:15,559 --> 00:41:17,480 bad because you know, we've we've really gone down that road. And I 606 00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:21,960 think, and that's why we also have you know, Brussels is to me 607 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:25,960 even follower of lobbyists than than Washington, DC is because it's more government power. 608 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,000 The more government power the more prone you are to corruption, the more 609 00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:31,920 prone you are to nepotism, the more prone you are to you know, 610 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:37,159 the s of cronies descending on your city. And I think I think that's 611 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,360 ultimately where people need to realize we can't fix those problem by making even more 612 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,159 rules. Yeah, and I actually think I agree with that totally. And 613 00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:51,159 I think if Donald Trump was serious about draining the swamp, the cutting of 614 00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:54,880 the regulations across the board, not just at the Department of Agriculture and the 615 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,480 FTA and wherever else was excellent. But to get to the heart of the 616 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,800 swamp, there's some real like lobbying regulations that need to happen, or lobbying 617 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,320 restrictions that need to happen. There's some deep systematic changes that need to happen 618 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,920 that I mean, to be fair, I guess you only had one term, 619 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,239 but I didn't hear him talking about that a lot when he was in 620 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:20,000 office. Bill, As we're sort of rounding out this discussion, what lessons 621 00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:23,239 and I know this is something you think about a lot. What lessons lessons 622 00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:30,000 should the US take from what's happening in Europe right now? Don't copy paste 623 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,119 it. That would definitely be the message, don't do what we've done wrong, 624 00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:39,519 don't underestimate the voice of the pharmists, because the environmental groups in Europe 625 00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:45,519 have essentially imported the American campaign tactics. Tactics in the past, we'd never 626 00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:49,480 had somebody dressing up as a whale in front of a building. That's sort 627 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,400 of an American campaign tactic that Europeans have sort of adopted. The same way 628 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,480 we got Halloween from you guys. That was not really a thing until Americas 629 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,920 and and and and farmers might do the same the other way around. I 630 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,519 think a lot of American farmers are looking at it at Germany and Netherlands and 631 00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:10,039 say, oh, we could do that too, And next time a farm 632 00:43:10,039 --> 00:43:13,840 bill comes up that we don't like, we might also do that without tractives. 633 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,239 Right, So don't underestimate sort of how like how big the sympathies are 634 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,400 towards farmers and and when you look at the polling in those countries, it 635 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,960 makes a big difference. And I think that's the message for Americans is listen 636 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,760 to what the farmers need, because ultimately that's how you end up. You 637 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,280 know that that's that's that's how you end up getting you food. I means, 638 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,880 these are the people that make sure that your food is safe and affordable 639 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,079 and so so. So listen to the farmers and understand sort of what their 640 00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:45,360 needs are. Make it an issue politically, even if you're not necessarily who 641 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,440 works somebody as as someone in the ac sector. But if you give the 642 00:43:47,559 --> 00:43:51,800 chance to ask a question at a town hall, make that an issue also 643 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,159 sort of what is your vision for presidential candidates? What is your vision for 644 00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:58,599 the food sector? What should it be in the future? Are we exporting 645 00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:00,400 more? Are we trying to rely on our selves? What? What is 646 00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:04,760 what is our vision? Do we focus on doing nutritiousness of food? Do 647 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,599 we do we try and you know, adhere to all the standards of the 648 00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:13,039 environmental policies? What is it that we want? I think those questions people 649 00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:17,880 need to ask and and and and Yeah, it's just you know, don't 650 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,679 get too inspired from Europe. But I mean maybe maybe maybe now on, 651 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,519 when the tractors descend on the streets of Berlin, Uh, maybe maybe some 652 00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:30,159 people will realize there's only so much you can do to farmers. They're they're 653 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,880 there are people with I mean, we have some old things in Europe. 654 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,840 I'm not sure they're translatable, but ultimately now it's down to it's like, 655 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,280 you know, farmers are very stubborn people and there's only so far you can 656 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:45,960 go with them. But where can people follow your work? You can follow 657 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,920 me on x at words, W I R t Z Bill or yeah, 658 00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:53,320 just Consumer Choice Center the website consumer Choice center dot org. There you go. 659 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,239 All right, Well, Bill Words, we'll have to check back in 660 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,880 again soon. This is always so interesting. I appreciate you coming back on 661 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,679 Federalist Radio Hour. Thank you for having me. You've been listening to another 662 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,039 edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm a Lie Tashnski, culture editor here 663 00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:09,000 at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be 664 00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:20,639 the lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray. I heard the fame boy 665 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:30,400 ser reason, and then it faded away