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The the the the the the the
the All right, what's up? Everybody?

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Welcome. We're having fun with constant
streaming. Like I said, I

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was getting in the mode, the
attitude, the mood to do it every

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day. So we're gonna test that. I'll see how consistent I can stick

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to it. As you can see, I'm in a very nasty, mean

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mode today. I told you I
was gonna be full of love in twenty

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twenty four. It's gonna be the
year love. It's gonna be the year

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of love. Like Matthew McConaughey and
I tricked you all, It's not the

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year of love. It's the year
of Cowbrack Mandon. We're going to stop

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the rolling Catholics. Cobra. So
I got my Cobra shirt on. Bro,

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What're you gonna do about that?
Ah, somebody's gonna clip this and

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be like, look, he's wearing
a say to any shirt exposed, who's

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bosed Cobra the Federal Reserve? Remember
the Cobra episode about Federal Reserve dude Cobra.

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Cobra was based and red pilled before
any about everybody, anybody was There's

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a whole episode about how Cobra tells
everybody that the Federal Reserve is fake money,

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one hundred percent serious. And he
says, people of America, your

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government's a lightened to you. Your
currency is worthless, and then he's going

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to replace it with Cobra currency,
which by the way, is actually better

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than the shit coin known as the
US dollar. So here we are represent

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red Pilled based Cobra Commander in the
house. By the way, Yo,

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Joe, shit, Joe, give
me a break, dude. Joe's over

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here with Globo skittles, right,
Joe's over here trying to put freaking Lady

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Jane on the front lines to be
in special operations. Get that out of

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here, dude, Although I guess
technically Cobra did that too, because the

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baroness is on the front lines of
fighting the black ops for Cobra bo.

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You know what I'm saying. Whatever, in my mind, if Cobra calls

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out fell a reserve, he's basing
red Pill and Joe is like freaking cupped

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fighting for the Fiat dollar and fighting
for Hasbro and Mattel and Subway to have

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franchises and all the other. So
there we go. So let's get into

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it today. Today I felt like
it was another perf sort of springboard to

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talk about the issues that we've talked
about many times, and yet it still

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doesn't seem to sink in. As
you know, I think maybe a year

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year and a half ago, we
had a pretty intense in an intellectual sense.

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There was nothing uncivil about it.
Everybody, remember I was perfectly nice

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in the debate with Trent over natural
theology. Now we're not going to revisit

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everything about that debate. We're gonna
pick some of the elements of that debate

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that maybe haven't been clearly communicated or
haven't sunk in, so to speak.

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Now, let's see, let me
get the link for y'all, because I'm

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actually we're actually live. If you
want to call in, we always have

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open form. We will after we
go through some of this material, I'll

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open it up to where the heck
is it at? Well, we'll open

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it up for questions, comments and
debates. Here. It is right here.

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So let me give you guys the
link. Here's the link to the

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open Twitter spaces forum in the chat
right here. If you want to call

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in, you can right there,
and I'll add it to the show description.

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Because everybody always nobody ever checks show
descriptions. Ever, every link is

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always in the show descriptions, and
then people come and they're like, you

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call in, what do how do
just do? What is this what you

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talk about? It's in the show
description lazy moons. So a lot of

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things h that we discuss in the
Trent debate have not sunk in. In

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fact, around the top of that
debate, I mentioned triad in passing and

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Trent didn't know what I was talking
about. Well, unfortunately, Trent still

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hasn't figured out what triad means,
which tells us a lot. And I'm

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not being mean, but it tells
us that Trent isn't familiar with the basics

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of Eastern Trinitarian theology. But that's
not surprising given the way that the majority

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of the Roman Catholic apologetic is really
just trying to prove the papacy. As

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we've seen over and over and over, and if you didn't see last night's

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livestream, we did a great breakdown
of the Voice of Reason versus Luigi debate

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where Luigi and I for two hours
broke down that whole exchange. But you'll

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notice here Trent says it's a false
dilemma I asked if in the Old Testament

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they knew that God was a trinity, a Jewish multiplicity in the Godhead could

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be akin to proto arianism. No, it's not proto arianism. I mean,

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it could be all kinds of things. But the point is not whether

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first second century Jews had some kind
of minitarianism or multiple The question is does

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the Old Testament teach a triad?
And then he says, you even use

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the word triad to describe it,
but you'd say that modern people that worship

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triad Jehovah's witnesses, what are not
worshiping the true God? So and somehow

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in his mind triad means arianism.
I don't know where he got this,

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never heard this, and it just
shows me that from a year and a

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half two years ago, whenever we
had our natural theology debate, he still

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hasn't understood anything about Orthodox Trinitarian theology. So it's kind of I guess it's

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not surprising, but I hope that
we would see some progress there. No

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trent the word triad if you look
it up on any public explanation site.

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Even chat GPT knows that the word
triad that is just the Orthodox term for

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Trinity. I mean, in fact, Gregor Palomas has a book called The

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Triads and it's about the Triad and
about the energies. It's a common term.

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Okay, there's nothing weird. There
nothing inherently arian about the term.

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So no idea where he got this. But I'm not trying to be mean.

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It just shows that he doesn't know
the position. He doesn't understand Old

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Testament theology, and to be fair, a lot of people in the Roman

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Catholic natural theology tradition don't understand it. Trent seems to think that the Old

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Testament teaches a Unitarian deity. And
he thinks this, as I pointed out

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many many times since our debate,
because he said it in the debate.

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He thinks that. He thinks that
partly because that's part of the natural theology

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argumentation. If you read, for
example, Suma Countries in Tlace one,

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Quitas will reference these types of arguments. That's the five volume series that he's

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written against the Pagans and the Heathens. So it's an apologetic from natural theology

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to prove quote monotheism. And what
we learn is that Aquinas thinks that the

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Trinity is a revelation that's rather new
because of the fact that it's a New

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Testament Gospels, and then Church Father
revelation. And so he makes this argument

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that God first reveals himself as a
kind of generic monat or unity in the

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Old Testament, a Unitarian type of
revelation, and then it moves to trinity

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and incarnation. And this is very
common in a lot of natural theological argumentation.

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And if we look at nostra Atate, which is the famous Vatican two

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document dealing with acumenism, it clearly
presents Acumenism on the basis of a type

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of common denominator lowest common denominator natural
theology explication. For example, we read

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that the Muslims, we're gonna use
Muslims because they're a better example. Uh,

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scroll past the Muslims, or isn't
it? The Church regards with esteem

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the Muslims. They adore the one
God living and subsisting in himself. So

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you'll notice the reference here is to
a Unitarian presupposition that we share in common

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with the Muslims. The Creator who
of heaven and earth, who has spoken

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to men and takes pain to submit
to his indisputable decrees as Abraham within the

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faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking
itself submitted to God. So you'll notice

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here the natural theology presupposition here is
that we, together with Muslims, share

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a common Abrahamic faith. This is
why the Abrahmic Faith Center is the commonality

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between Roman Catholics and Muslims and Jews. Allah. Pope Francis is Abu Dhabi

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Center. That's based on the accords
that he signed with the Imam. Remember

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a few years ago when Francis signed
those accords that God wills all of the

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religions to exist, and people say, oh, what does that mean?

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Does he want false religions? And
then all the defenders of Pope Francis said,

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it just means that in God's providence
he wills them. But then we

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saw as the conspiracy there has said
that we are vindicated because it turns out

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no, the Abu Dhabi Faith Center
was always intended to be built as an

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acumenist presub position that we all worship
quote the same God. So remember the

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Abu Dhabi Faith Center, which is
totally apostasy, is premised on this.

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It's the Vatican two perennialist natural theology, and we're gonna see why it's perennialist

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in a minute, and then we're
going to contrast this with actual biblical theology.

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And as everybody on this channel knows, with all of the multiple Muslim

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debates that we've done since twenty eighteen
with the top Muslims, all of them

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except one top Muslim, muhammedad Jobs
the only one we haven't debated, we'd

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better all the other ones. What
have we learned? They use natural theology

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to argue to a generic Unitarian Allah, exactly the same presubpositions that Trent has,

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exactly the same presuppositions as what is
here in no stratate. Now,

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first element that we see that's a
problem here is that the Old Testament does

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not teach a generic unit trying God. And Paul says very clearly, for

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example in relations that you're not the
seat of Abraham because you acknowledge quote Unitarianism.

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Does Paul say that their monotheistic Abrahamic
faiths because they recognize quote monotheism.

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Absolutely not. That's nowhere in the
text. It's not even in the Old

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Testament. As we're going to see, it's an assumption that natural theology proponents

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make. And to be clear,
people are going to say, you mean

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there's no natural theology. You don't
think there's a theology of nature. Natural

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theology is defined in Pope John Paul's
cyclical feed Us at Ratio as the specific

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philosophizing about God and proving his existence. Quote, apart from any reference to

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divine revelation. Go get the Dictionary
of Natural Theology, of which William Lane

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Craig I think is the editor.
The first chapter is on natural theology.

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William Lane Craig, for the Protestant
defines it exactly the same way as Jean

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paula second does. And this is
why Vladimir Lowski, for example, says,

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we don't do natural theology the way
these people do, because, as

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Father Steinielois says in Volume one or
Orthodox Dogmatics, the first two pages,

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it's better to call it natural revelation
in the Orthodox view, and that's not

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what natural theology is. Natural theology
is this lowest common denominator, generic theism,

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based around the idea that because there's
some shared predicates or attributes, that

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is therefore the same reference. And
we're gonna see that that's false. Even

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though we could say, for example, in certain texts in the New Testament.

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Trent mentioned one in some of his
tweets, We're gonna look at Act

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seventeen and we're gonna say, wait
a minute, Actually, AC seventeen doesn't

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actually back up the natural theology argumentation. Actually an Act seventeen backs up our

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position, And so it was surprising
to me that he cited it, And

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I'm guessing he didn't really get the
whole force of the passage, because when

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Paul says that the God that you
worship as the unknown God is the true

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God, the point of that passage
is that he's the unknown. So it's

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odd to me that Trent thought that
was a passage that would explain that the

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Pagans know God when Paul calls him
the unknown God. So it's a kind

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of a paradox, you could say, were Paul's saying that the one that

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you think you know that you call
unknown is the true God because you don't

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know him, and then Trent's trying
to turn that into the opposite of what

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actually says, as if it means
that you know the unknown God. No,

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no, it doesn't mean that.
And by the way, we have

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to be clear, and I think
Father Deacon and Aias and I did a

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discussion on this here. You'll notice
this was twenty twenty one. We covered

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the doctor Gariby paper called Caultheistic Fallacies, and I referenced this in the Trent

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debate. Trent claimed that he had
at one time read the paper, but

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he didn't remember it. I don't
think that he still has understood the argumentation

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of this paper, because the paper, as we're going to see, points

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out what we call the quantifier shift
fallacy, which underlies a lot of the

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natural theology argumentation and presuppositions. So
we'll get to that here in a minute,

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and i'll talk about the Garbye paper
and I kind of give an overview

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of it as well, because once
again we're back to all the stuff that

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we talked about, you know,
two three years ago, and we're also

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going to walk through a lot of
the texts in the Old Testament. Now.

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I did a talk of four or
five years ago responding to who is

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that goofy guy, mister mister something. Remember him? He was like a

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long haired philosophy dude, and then
he decided that he wasn't libertarian conspiracy guy

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anymore. He became quote a Greek
Orthodox Arian, and he tried to gaslight

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everybody into saying that the Orthodox Church
is Arian. It's like, what are

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you talking? No clue to what
that goes, mister E something like that.

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I can't even remember his name,
but I did a four hour talk

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like four or five years ago.
Not, that's what I said, mister

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mister, take these broken o wise
and learn to fly again. Learn to

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live, Sophie. And when we
hear the Roman heretics scene the Book of

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Love, open up and let everybody
into Heaven through nuts with theology. No,

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not mister mister rocking, mister E, that was it. That's the

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Aryan dude. He prompted the four
hour video that I did five years ago

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walking through the Trinity in the Old
Testament. Now, guess what. Since

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that time, I had not read
the recent Jewish scholarship admitting the multiplicity in

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the Old Testament. I have reread
the Old Testament since that time, including

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multiple rereadings of the Book of Isaiah
and Ezekiel and the Psalms and Judges and

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Genesis. And it turns out I
missed a ton of triadic references the last

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go round. So I've found dozens
more, literally dozens more of triadic references

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that I missed five years ago.
So I'm gonna try to I don't know

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how we could do that. That
would actually take a whole lecture series,

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right, Literally, you should do
triad in the Old Testament as a whole

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course. Ideally, that's how it
should be done, because you would need

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to go deep into Genesis. There's
multiple references in general, even in Genesis

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that I missed. I mean,
there's the Theophanes are part of this too,

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you see. So it's not just
does is there a text that says

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Yahweh his angel and spirit. It's
also the Theophanes. And in fact,

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in the Summer's book, which was
really crucial to the Daniel Kikikachu debate,

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we saw Summers going through what he
called fluidity in the Old Testament. Yahweh

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exemplifies fluidity in the ways that he
can manifest himself, and so actually throughout

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that book, even though he's a
modern Jewish scholar, he's basically admitting Theophanes

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multiple hypostaces, even says that it's
his argumentation is akin to the way that

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Trinitarian Christians speak of the hypostasis,
and it's like, you read this book

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and you're like, okay, well, mister Jewish man, why would you

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not be a Christian if you admit
all this exactly exactly? And we're going

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to look at some of that.
But I just want to remind you guys

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that we did cover the Garibie paper
in detail here and you can go watch

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it right here if you want to
go watch that discussion later. Yeah,

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so people are saying that they watched
that old video many many times. Well,

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guess what again, I missed I
missed the munch And this is why

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the Bible is a book that's so
profound in deep that you you have to

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constantly reread it because you're you're there's
always things that you're gonna miss. And

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really, movies and literature works this
way. Movies work this way, right,

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I mean there's movies that I watched
and you know, maybe I've seen

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it three times, and then I
watched it the fourth time and I'm like,

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how did I miss that? That
was crazy? That was like a

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huge, you know, symbolic scene
that I missed that was super important.

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And it's the same way with reading
and the other reason the Bible works that

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way. Is it is? You
know, the Bible is a bunch of

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little books in one big book,
and so the more that you imbibe sections

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of the book, they're going to
cross reference to other sections of the big

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book, you see. So because
it's a holistic, unified thing, sometimes

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it's called I think canonical interpretation,
meaning that we interpret specific sections, paragraph

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chapters in light of the whole Bible, and we have a presupposition of narrative

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continuity from Jenna to Revelation. Right, so you're going to be reading parts

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that later jive with and harmonize with
other parts, and you might not pick

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up on details until you go deeper
and deeper into that text and read it

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through five, ten, twenty one
hundred times, right, I mean there

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could be a lot. Somebody told
me Garby is not I don't know what

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Gary Beery's views are, but I
think Father de can email them. But

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anyway, so I don't know what
his views are. I've heard somebody said

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he was Orthodox, then somebody said
no, he's Catholic, and then somebody

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said no he's not. He's Jewish. So I don't know what his views

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are. But regardless, it's just
a paper critiquing natural theology, and it's

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a really well written paper, and
it basically points out a lot of fallacies,

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like the quantifier shift fallacy, like
the ambiguity that's involved in references in

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terms of intentional contexts. Right,
so just because the same word is used,

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it doesn't necessarily get us to the
same reference, right, and so

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kind of like the word concept fallacy. And I would argue that a lot

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of natural theology trades on a a
version of bait and switch. Where if

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a Muslim says I believe in God, I believe in one God. If

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a Satanist says I believe in one
God, a theistic Satanist scientologist says I

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believe there's one God somehow, and
a Christian says I believe in one God.

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Well, they all believe in one
God, so therefore they believe in

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the same God. That's called the
quantifier shift fallacy, and it's basically saying

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that you're shifting the quantity reference there
So because we all have one mother,

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right, all humans have one mother, Well, we all have the same

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mother. And everybody can see how
that's a fallacy. It's the exact same

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move in natural theology. Other problem
is of course, well there's many,

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but there's not a lowest common denominator
list of attributes that necessarily gives you the

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true God if you remove essential attributes. For example, Muslims remove essential attributes.

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And I don't know if maybe again
the Roman Catholic apologists may not know

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this, but there's multiple attributes that
Allah does not have that we believe God

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has. For example, Allah does
not have sons. Well, we believe

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that we're God's sons. We believe
that Jesus, the son of God.

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Well, Allah doesn't have a son, as the Quran says, so he's

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not a father, is the point. Okay. We believe that God is

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quote unquote the person of the Father
eternally generating a son. Okay, well

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that's fundamentally not the Muslim Muslim beut
thing. And Allah is not imminent,

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Okay. If for most quote Christians, they believe in divine eminence and divine

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transcendence, Muslims do not believe Allah
is iminent. He's not present in the

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world. So you start to realize
that things that we assume are kind of

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fundamental attributes are not fundamental. They're
denied in Islam. So for removing things

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that are quote fundamental, How can
the reference be the same. And you

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might say, well, the reference
is the same in the sense of the

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individual intending to hit upon that thing, that God. So if a Muslim

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says I believe in one God and
they intend it to be say, for

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example, the God of Abraham,
there might be an intention in that reference,

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and yet it's still be wrong.
You see how that works there.

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This is why you could say,
in one sense they know God. In

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another sense, they don't know God. And that's what Paul does in Romans

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want So it's not a contradiction.
It's two different senses of the word knowing,

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and a lot of times Roman Catholics
will kind of trade on the equivocating

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and confusing of these two senses of
knowing. One is a direct relational worship

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aspect, the other is a kind
of intellectual knowledge of right. So if

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you read a letter about me,
you say, I know that Jay guy

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wrote that letter about him, but
you don't know me. You haven't had

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an intimate personal encounter with me.
That's a different type of knowing. Just

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like for example, the Bible says
so and So knew his wife, Adam

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knew his wife Eve. That's talking
about an intimacy of sexual relations beyond just

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intellectual rational knowledge of a thing.
So already we can see that the word

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knowing isn't always just one sense of
a conceptualizing. And so the problem is

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not does a Jew or a Muslim
have a abstract conception, actual reference of

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God the Father or a God,
right, because Jews might say, well,

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I believe in God the Father,
and a Muslim might say I believe

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in one God, the all Powerful
or something like that. Right, But

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is that quote enough to show that
they submit to and worship the One True

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God. No, it's not.
That's the point here, and that's why

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when it says the Church regards to
the esteem the Muslims, they adore the

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One God, the Creator and submit
wholeheartedly to his inscrutable degrees like Abraham.

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No they don't. So this is
moving beyond an abstracted reference to one predicate

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or attribute of God, which we
could say is true to now saying no,

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they have an intimate relationship with that
quote God by being part of the

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quote Abrahemic faith. There is no
Abrahemic faith outside of Jesus and the Trinity.

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And that's why Orthodox apologists in Orthodox
dogmatics in Orthodox theology has always said,

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if you look at the rube Lev
Icon, it teaches you our view,

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It teaches you what Abraham was up
to. I mean, many of

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us have seen Sam Schimun debate Muslims. Right, whether you're Protestant, Orthodox

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or Catholic. How does Sam Schimun
go about debating all those Muslims when it

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comes to Moses in the Prophets.
Oh, it's the same way that I

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debate, and it's revolving around who
was Moses Jesus, I mean Moses and

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Abraham having meals with Every Orthodox person
knows from this icon it's a triadic relationship

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in the Old Testament. And no, it doesn't mean that the Father's incarnate

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as an angel. It means that
the Logos is there as the Lord a

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with two angels, and so it's
symbolic of the Trinity. But it's actually

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one of the hypostaces of the Trinity
in a theophany that's Orthodox one oh one.

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So every Orthodox person in Orthox one
oh one knows by this icon that

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the Old Testament is triadic and not
unitarian. This is Orthodox one oh one.

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And yet we have Trent saying today, let me find the original,

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the original comment that sparked all this
off again. I got it saved here.

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I think it's this one. Hmm. See, I don't know why

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it doesn't want to show up.
Oh, it's because it's hold on.

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I'm gonna have to do a screenshot
of it and redo it. You'll see

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here. So this is what Trent
said today a few hours ago, and

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again illustrates everything that I've been arguing. I mean to do that. Okay,

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here it is. So here's what
Trent says. Yes, Muslims and

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Christians adore the One merciful God.
So you notice he's using the language of

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Vatican too, the language of no
stratate adoration. Adore. That's worship that's

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more than a mere abstracted intellectual knowledge
of one of the divine attributes, such

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as Jews saying God is a father, or muslim saying God is the all

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powerful or something. Okay, this
is now in the realm of adore.

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We saw that Nora Tate used the
terminology of let's go back to tat here,

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adore submit to same faith as Abraham, the faith of Islam, the

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faith of Abraham. Submitted to God. Although they don't acknowledge Jesus as God,

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they revere him as a prophet.
Yeah, that's called arianism. I

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mean, it's a form of arianism. So you'll notice it's like they come

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up with this sort of scale of
world religions here, Well, they get

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like a a B minus on their
view of Mary, who's a virgin,

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they get a B plus because they
call Jesus a prophet. It doesn't work

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like that. You understand that it
only takes one error on, for example,

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a divine attribute to cancel out that
being that deity. And we know

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this because, for example, how
does Basil argue with the Eunomians think of

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Unitarianism or Islam as basically very similar
to Eunomianism. Eunomia said that father,

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Son, and Spirit are really just
appellations of the simple essence, and that

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the son, whatever that is,
is really just some other ontological creation.

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He was even more radical than the
Arians. Okay, so essentially Eunomianism is

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the same unitarian theology as Islam.
If you saw the Jake doctor Branson debate,

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00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,440
Jake, for example, utilize the
Eunomian premise to try to make doctor

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00:32:53,440 --> 00:33:01,920
Branson into a Unomian. So here
we have Muslims utilizing argumentation. Now Basil

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engages an extensive argumentation with Eunomius,
as does Saint Gregor Nissa. You can

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go read Basils against Eunomius. It's
about two hundred pages. Nissa Is against

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Eunomius is about eight hundred. But
is there any trace in any of that

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whereby Basil thinks that they worship the
same god? Of course not, of

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course not. So you see that
the whole edifice is built on tricks like,

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well, we use the same word
Muslims revere Abraham. So what that's

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not good enough? And the bait
and switch comes when it's not just saying

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do they have an intellectual assent to
or concept of one of the divine attributes?

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The trick comes when they slip from
acknowledging that a pagan might have a

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knowledge, might have a sent to
or belief in one, say, say

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one attribute, Like a pagan says, I believe in Zeus is the all

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00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:20,639
powerful. Okay? Does that then
mean that he worships the one true God

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because he gets one attribute? Right? You see that? You see that

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fallacious move because it moves from intellectual
knowledge to relational adoration of God. That's

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a worship term. So for all
of their sort of casustrie and sophistry.

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They might get out of this if
they were to restrict all these statements to

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like conceptual knowledge, but they don't
that it can do one even further,

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as far as I'm aware, there
is a medieval statement. There's a letter

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between uh, maybe one of the
sultans in a pope. I forget the

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letter on the top of my head. It's cited I think in Vatican two.

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When Vatican two, it might even
be cited in the notes to notes

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for Tadi, one of the back
in two texts which promotes this idea that

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Muslims and Christians works at the same
God. It refers back to this I

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don't know. I want to say, like thirteenth century letter between a sultan

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and a pope, and the letter
says something like, well, since you

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and I, you know, adore
the one true God of Abraham, can

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we not come to blah blah blah
blah blah. Yeah, but we don't

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worship the same God because there's common
referen and it's very easy to show that

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that's not the case. But you'll
notice very clearly that I mean, just

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let's just step back from this for
a moment and think about the fact that,

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okay, this is the same rob
we got the church that called for

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crusades against Islam. Crusades, okay, urban the Second Crusades. And now,

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oh oops, sorry, we've been
finding these religious wars and thinking for

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centuries that these were the bad guys. It turns out now actually they worshiped

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the same God as us. Oh
my bad. Sorry, all that trinity

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stuff. What a bunch of obnoxious, annoying theological minutia to get into trinity

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and deity of Christ and you know, all this stuff that you mean that

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what Jesus talks about, no one
comes to the Father but through me.

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And yet now we have open acceptance
and promotion of the acumenist idea on the

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part of the Vatican that no,
actually you can approach the Father without Jesus,

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and the Muslims do it very well
because they adore the one God.

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Now just think how silly this is
when we understand doctor Branson's lectures. And

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this is what Trent doesn't understand.
This is another huge element the monarchy of

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the Father. They are not even
aware. I mean, there are to

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be fair some Roman Catholic texts that
will admit the principal role of the Father

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as the source. But what you
see here in Vatican Two's document is an

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00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,360
exemplification of what I think is a
rival tradition within the Latin West of that

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00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:22,440
absolute divine simplicity, the assumption that
I can reason to an absolutely simple essence

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00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:28,559
on the basis of certain attributes apart
from Trinity, apart from Jesus, apart

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00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:34,719
from fathers and Holy Spirit, I
can get generic simplicity, omniscience, omnipotence,

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one noncomposite. Those are all the
natural theology attributes that I can somehow

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get to apart from divine revelation through
reason alone. Okay, do you understand

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00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:49,760
people don't even understand what natural theology
is. First of all, they think

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00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,199
it's If you remember the debate,
Trench shifted between about three different senses of

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what he thought natural theology was.
He thought, using apologetic arguments at all

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was quote natural theology. No,
no, no, no. And I

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00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:06,280
even sent to him before the debate
the very definition of what we would be

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00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,039
debating. John Paul the Second's definition
of natural theology in feed us at ratio

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00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:22,360
that it's reasoning about God apart from
divine revelation. William Lane craig Dictionary of

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00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,119
Natural Theology has exact same definition,
So between Protestants and Roman Catholics, there's

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00:38:27,119 --> 00:38:30,000
no dispute as to what natural theology
is. So natural theology is not using

401
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:36,880
reason at all. It's not using
logic, it's not using evidences. None

402
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:42,519
of those things are the definition of
natural theology, which is what we were

403
00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:45,519
debating. And Trent said, well, if you're using reasoning at all,

404
00:38:45,519 --> 00:38:51,000
that's natural theology. No it's not. That's why I defined what we're debating,

405
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:55,639
and you agreed to that definition in
the emails. So natural theology is

406
00:38:55,679 --> 00:39:01,360
again premised on the assumption that because
there's some things in common, then the

407
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:09,760
reference is the same, and the
intention of the reference might be the same,

408
00:39:10,039 --> 00:39:15,760
but that doesn't mean that the individual
has therefore established a personal relationship with

409
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,840
that reference just because they even have
the intention the same. And I gave

410
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:29,679
the example of let's say that I
give you a list I buried treasure I

411
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,719
have. I was gonna say gold, I was gonna bitcoaiin, but let's

412
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,800
say gold. Okay, I buried
twenty five bars of gold, and I

413
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:47,000
buried it in the Promised Land.
And I'm gonna give you some other clues.

414
00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:52,639
It's you're gonna go into a wooded
area and it's it's off the beaten

415
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,639
path. And if you go to
the Promised Land and you search in the

416
00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:02,159
basement of a building, you're gonna
this twenty five bars of gold buried there.

417
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,880
And you say, aha, I
have some good ideas. And even

418
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,039
if I don't know for sure,
it's worth it to spend the next two

419
00:40:08,119 --> 00:40:13,239
years flying. I'm gonna fly over
to Israel. I'm gonna search for all

420
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,840
all the basements in wooded areas outside
of the city. And you go and

421
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,840
you search, and you search,
and you come back five years later after

422
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,000
searching. It's been you said,
Jay, you you told me. You

423
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:28,239
told me that the Promised Land was
was where you buried your twenty five bars

424
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:35,800
of gold and in the prospector.
Now it's Nick Cage on his National Next

425
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,639
National Treasure Event Adventure. Right.
He says, Jay, I went to

426
00:40:38,679 --> 00:40:45,280
the Promised Land. I search every
freaking basement. Okay, there's no gold

427
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,800
buried in any basement in Israel.
And I said, ah, nick Nick,

428
00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:53,239
my friend, Yes, even though
you had the intention, the correct

429
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:59,280
intention, to go to the reference
that I had that I gave you,

430
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:06,000
my friend, I meant the Promised
Land Christian bookstore down the road from where

431
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,039
I live. So you noticed that
he had the right intention to go for

432
00:41:09,159 --> 00:41:20,280
what I intended. The reference was
identically Promised Land. But the reference was

433
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,199
wrong even though he had the right
intention. So just because a Muslim has

434
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:30,760
the intention that his predicates that his
sentences match up to the one quote True

435
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:40,599
God. If Jesus tells us that
the one true God is reached through him

436
00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:51,440
and only through him, then adoring
one attribute is not enough is the point.

437
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,280
And if that's the case, then
this whole edifice of natural theology falls

438
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:05,760
apart. Furthermore, as Garabie argues
forcefully at the beginning of the paper,

439
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:14,039
he completely takes Richard Swinburn to task, because Richard Swinburn claims to be Orthodox,

440
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:20,039
some sort of convert from Tomism,
and Richard Swinburn thinks that there's a

441
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:23,960
lowest common denominator of attributes where you
just list out about ten of them,

442
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,719
and that's the one true God that
we all share in common, and that

443
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,280
therefore we could build a sort of
a cumunist dialogue off of that. However,

444
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:37,000
the perennialist John Hick I think,
if I remember, he makes the

445
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:40,440
argument that we'll wait a minute,
why does do those attributes have to get

446
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,840
you to the commonality between Christians,
Jews and Muslims that somehow leads you into

447
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:52,519
Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Why
wouldn't the commonality speak to a perennialist true

448
00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:58,800
religion which is more universal over those
three you see. In other words,

449
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:04,800
it's a non sequitor to say that
it necessitates you to move into either Judaism,

450
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,920
Christianity or Islam because there's commonalities.
When if you say that there's commonalities

451
00:43:09,159 --> 00:43:14,719
the real true religion you could eat
just as easily argue. Is the perennialist

452
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,679
commonalities the lowest common denominator? And
by the way, why is it only

453
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,480
the common denominator ones that Swinburne lists. Maybe there's five attributes that's the real

454
00:43:24,599 --> 00:43:29,039
lowest common denominator. Do you see
how silly this is? Then we could

455
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:32,639
get into the the point that I
made to Trent again. Well, now

456
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:38,840
wait a minute, if all it
takes is the same intended reference of a

457
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:46,559
quote unified deity. Then it seems
to follow that if a Christian, if

458
00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:53,360
a scientologist, and a theistic Satanist
all say I worship one deity, then

459
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,119
they all worship the same deity.
But that again is the quantifier shift pallacy,

460
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,320
as I pointed out right here.
So do we see how all of

461
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,880
these moves don't work, and they're
all premised not actually, I mean,

462
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:14,360
I think sometimes people are making mistakes
about genuinely wanting to understand this or that

463
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,000
verse. I mean I used to
believe in natural theology at one time too.

464
00:44:16,039 --> 00:44:19,360
I thought, okay, maybe Thomas
Aquinas is right, and you know,

465
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,719
the thomasig position has a good account
of that. So I thought these

466
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:30,400
things as well. So I understand
the thinking process. But what really got

467
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,880
me out of all this was number
one, of course, orthodox theology,

468
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,199
but even understanding it in a more
clear way getting into anti Islamic apologetics.

469
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:42,599
And I'm gonna let Father Deacon's gonna
join us here in a minute. We're

470
00:44:42,599 --> 00:44:45,480
gonna open it up here in a
minute. But let's go back to my

471
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:52,519
opening statement to Daniel Haikikachu in our
debate, and keep in mind that the

472
00:44:52,679 --> 00:45:00,239
very arguments that I'm making against Daniel
are the same arguments that I'm making against

473
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:05,599
and is natural theology? How is
this not like obvious and mind blowing to

474
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:10,760
people that natural theology is false?
I mean, look, what do we

475
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,280
say to Daniel. Let's go back
to It's not that long. We're gonna

476
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,360
play this and comment on it.
This was the opening statement, because remember

477
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,800
Daniel's argument was, I mean I
went I think I went first. But

478
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,920
his argument is going to be that
the the religion of the Old Testament prophets.

479
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,880
That was the premise of our debate. Is the is the religion of

480
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:38,320
Moses the prophets unitarian or trinitarian?
That was the premise of art. Who's

481
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:45,079
the incontinuity with the prophets is amor
Christianity. So let's listen to some of

482
00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:50,480
this debate, and we're gonna look
at what Jewish scholarship nowadays admits today seventh

483
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:54,800
century jewre Christian and verify the Quran
claims. In the Koran many places where

484
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,440
told that it's Heros and readers should
go to the Torah into the in Deal

485
00:45:59,519 --> 00:46:05,199
or the Gospel. This assumes a
degree of continuity which could only be validated

486
00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:08,840
with the existing manuscript, scripts and
textual traditions that are already possessed by both

487
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:15,079
Jews and Christians in the previous centuries. As laid down in a divine revelation

488
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:19,480
in Deuteronomy thirteen and eighteen, any
subsequent prophetic revelation must meet the test of

489
00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:25,239
consistency with prior revelation. This here
would refer to the prior existing Torah,

490
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,599
whether oral or written, including a
subsequent divine revelation found in the Wisdom taxt

491
00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:36,039
the historical books, liturgical texts,
and the major and minor prophets. Islam

492
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:39,159
and the Qur'an do not merely contradict
prior revelation in a few minor areas,

493
00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:45,239
but rather gigantic portions of the Torah
and the profits are discarded due to obvious

494
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:51,599
contradictions, in accuracies, and inconsistencies
with the chronic account Deuteronomy thirteen and eighteen.

495
00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:53,599
Now you're gonna be might be one. I must get past the Deuteronomy

496
00:46:53,639 --> 00:46:58,880
text because they're not that relevant to
the continuity. I'm going to move on

497
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,159
to this next slide. If you're
wondering why I'm playing this, it's again

498
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,960
to stress and I mentioned this in
the debate with Trent. I Remember I

499
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,159
said, Trent, how do you
how do you argue against Muslims? Like

500
00:47:08,199 --> 00:47:12,039
have you not had I don't know. If maybe he hasn't had any Muslim

501
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:15,480
debates, I don't know. But
if you do begin to have Muslim debates,

502
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,360
you're gonna learn very quickly that the
best way to undercut Islam is to

503
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,920
point out that the Old Testament is
not Unitarian, Trent, So if you're

504
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:28,199
gonna have the same presuppositions as the
Muslim and Muslims believe in natural theology.

505
00:47:28,199 --> 00:47:34,159
By the way, just like Roman
Catholics, do you already have surrendered a

506
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:38,639
tremendous refutation of Islam by pointing out
that the Old Testament is triadic and all

507
00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:45,519
about Jesus. And that's not a
Christian reinterpolation of the Old Testament. That's

508
00:47:45,559 --> 00:47:53,559
the intention of the Old Testament itself, not a quote rabbinical book and the

509
00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:57,920
Jewish scholarship. By the way,
that I mentioned in my opening statement,

510
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:07,960
guess what it points out about rabbinical
theology. The strict Unitarian enforcement on Judaism

511
00:48:08,159 --> 00:48:16,599
is a late rabbinical mandate. We're
talking my monodies. Now, that doesn't

512
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:22,119
mean that no Jewish rabbinical texts prior
to my monodies were Unitarian, but it

513
00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:29,039
means that there was a lot of
dispute, discussion, debate about in what

514
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:36,880
way and how Yahweh was quote fluid
you could say, in Somers's text or

515
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:42,320
multiple and there were different ideas on
this. Okay, there was benitarianism.

516
00:48:42,679 --> 00:48:45,960
There was a kind of trinitarianism,
and we'll see that here in a minute

517
00:48:45,159 --> 00:48:51,800
in my opening statement. And you're
gonna notice how devastating this is to Trent's

518
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:58,320
presupositions, because he has the same
presuppositions in that. The next thing that

519
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,320
has to be shown, which I
may cause some people some surprise, is

520
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:09,000
that the Old Testament prophets were trinitarian. They were not Unitarian. Judaism specifically

521
00:49:09,039 --> 00:49:15,039
in the Second Temple period was not
a monolithic Unitarian enterprise. The question becomes,

522
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:20,280
what are the teachings of the prophets
in the Old Testament? Did they

523
00:49:20,679 --> 00:49:24,880
actually teach as Isem says, a
radical unitarianism or is it something more fluid

524
00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:30,840
or is there differentiation in Yahweh?
In fact, modern Jewish scholarship unanimously is

525
00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:37,079
undecided on this question. There's a
lot of Jewish scholarship that is listed here.

526
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:42,039
For example, Daniel Boylaren later I
have Summer and I have a Siegel,

527
00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:46,199
and they admit that in the Old
Testament itself not due to Christian deviation.

528
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:51,280
But in the Old Testament itself,
we find many, many passages that

529
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:58,360
show differentiation in Yahweh. That differentiation
is not just located in rabbinic debates.

530
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,480
It also continues into later medieval debates
with Jewish Kabbalah. And you could see

531
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,840
there. For example, Gurse Sholam
in his book on kabala he's the respected

532
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:13,159
cabalist theologian to the Middle Ages,
or a scholar of medieval kabbala He points

533
00:50:13,159 --> 00:50:15,599
out, for example, to be
three beginningless lights that are mentioned. Now,

534
00:50:15,639 --> 00:50:19,920
I'm not a cabalist. I'm just
pointing out that this shows that the

535
00:50:20,039 --> 00:50:22,360
Jewish tradition. Yeah, and by
the way, so I'm sure that the

536
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,519
right wing goobers are going to freak
out here and clip me like they did

537
00:50:25,639 --> 00:50:30,920
last time and say he's a gobbist
who's promoting No, I'm not a cabalist.

538
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:37,480
Okay. The only reason I'm referencing
the Kabbalistic debates are precisely because cabalistic

539
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:45,840
rabbinical scholars we're trying to figure out
in what way God is multiple just showing

540
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,960
that there were rabbinical debates even into
the Middle Ages about this very question.

541
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:52,880
That's the only point I'm making.
And then a bunch of liars are like,

542
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,480
well, Luke, see he's promoting
Cabalism. No, did you know?

543
00:50:55,639 --> 00:51:01,480
Kabbalism, according to Sholom, is
just neo platanism and gnosticism in Judaism.

544
00:51:02,599 --> 00:51:10,239
That's all it is. Now,
that's a broad term platonism and gnosticism.

545
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,360
It doesn't mean that all of the
discussions that they were having were quote

546
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,000
gnostic and neoplatonic. It just means
that it's similar, and they were borrowing

547
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,159
the models and structures of Neoplatonism and
so forth to try to make sense of

548
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:30,000
in what ways God manifests himself in
the world. Now, sometimes the cobblists

549
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:36,519
got into these crazy magical texts,
superstitions. Sometimes they got into these weird

550
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,440
ideas that evil is good and good
as evil. Yes, I'm aware of

551
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,400
all of that in Cablism. I
knew about that twenty years ago. But

552
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,639
that's not the point that I'm making
here in this argument. The point is

553
00:51:45,679 --> 00:51:52,920
just simply to say that this shows
us that Judaism was not a monolithic Unitarian

554
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:59,519
system even into the Middle Ages.
This really begins with my Monodies and his

555
00:51:59,599 --> 00:52:02,760
attention to make it strictly unitarian.
Okay, And even in his day there's

556
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:08,079
debate like Nachmanides, who is the
Kabalist rabbi versus my Monodes, who is

557
00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:14,800
the rationalist unitarian Arisitilian rabbi. Even
at that time they're still debating, okay.

558
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:21,880
So it takes a long time for
Judaism to be strictly, explicitly hardcore

559
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:31,599
Unitarian, and that undercuts the Muslim
and natural theology argumentation that the Old Testament

560
00:52:32,199 --> 00:52:39,079
was unitarian and early Jewish Christian debates
were trinitarian versus Unitarian. No they weren't.

561
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,920
That's the point, and it's very
important to point this out because now

562
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:49,360
it undercuts not just Islam, but
the stupid argument of the natural theologian proponents

563
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,519
who argued that the Old Testament unitarian. That's the whole point of this argument.

564
00:52:53,559 --> 00:53:00,159
And this is not me making this
is recent normative Jewish scholarship. We

565
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:07,599
are in Seagull Summers they're all Jewish, they're all rabbinical teachers. It's not

566
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:13,320
monolithic in his presentation. So I'd
like to come back then to my screen

567
00:53:13,679 --> 00:53:17,920
to me here and point out that
the first display of Trinitarian theology and along

568
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:22,440
of the prophets is, for example, here on this whiteboard. And I'm

569
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:27,760
showing this whiteboard because hopefully you guys
can see this. This is a tremendous

570
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,440
amount of texts and I'm just citing
these because there's too many to fit on

571
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:37,079
a single screen there with typing it
all out, you can screen. So

572
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:44,559
because there's so many Theophanes and references
to the Triad in the Old Testament,

573
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:49,159
I had to kind of pack it
on the white this giant whiteboard and freeze

574
00:53:49,159 --> 00:53:51,199
it because I didn't have a way
to list them all. I mean,

575
00:53:51,199 --> 00:53:53,719
I could have listened them all in
a slide or something, but I thought

576
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:58,440
the I thought the whiteboard made it
more kind of effective, you know what

577
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,599
I mean. So you can screenshot
that if you want. Unfortunately you can't

578
00:54:01,599 --> 00:54:06,360
see all of this much cut off. But I have a talk from four

579
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,559
or five years ago about Trinity and
the Old Testament. We can find that

580
00:54:08,639 --> 00:54:13,639
as well. I should probably just
redo all this and just lecture through every

581
00:54:13,639 --> 00:54:16,000
one of these texts. Maybe that's
the best way to do it, and

582
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,199
you know, get them all out
there and do like, I don't know,

583
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,320
a course on it or something,
but we need some kind of course

584
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,320
on this the Trinity in the Old
Testament, because more and more and more

585
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:30,159
we're starting to see these lunatic you
know, like Unitarian things, crazy Hebrew

586
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:37,079
Israelites, Arianism making a comeback on
the internet with all these online idiots everywhere.

587
00:54:37,199 --> 00:54:40,519
I was on the freaking plane from
back from la and I had a

588
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:45,840
dem We was King's brother next to
me watching we was King's videos father Deacon

589
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:52,559
Jusism. Yeah, where do I
mean? Obviously the Internet's facilitating this,

590
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:57,599
but let's just think about it.
How is this happening? I mean,

591
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:07,320
it's just mean is it kind of
the natural consequence of solo Maya that by

592
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:12,519
myself I'm trying to search for some
sort of authenticity so I go back and

593
00:55:12,599 --> 00:55:20,400
I construct this kind of Unitarianism or
Hebrew roots or I mean, obviously,

594
00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:24,079
like I said, the Internet,
let's just spread. But what do you

595
00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:28,639
think is kind of the source of
this? I think there could be also

596
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,039
you know fed support. I mean, a lot of this stuff is crazy.

597
00:55:31,079 --> 00:55:34,320
It seems to come out of nowhere. I mean, who knows,

598
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,320
right, I mean there's I mean, Dale Tuggy has been pushing Unitarianism for

599
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:43,320
a long time, doctor Branson sort
of his chief critic. So I think

600
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,440
ideally we'd like to see a Dale
Tuggy doctor Branson debate. Maybe that'll happened

601
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:51,480
one day. But I don't think
Dale Tugy wants to do that. I

602
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,079
think he's I mean, he doesn't
even want it to make me, he

603
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:59,039
says, because I'm a controversial,
infensive or whatever he says. But you

604
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:01,480
know, doctor Branson would would fare
a lot better than you. He would

605
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:06,400
do. He would be a much
better person to debate. But let's get

606
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,719
back to this real quick. So
notice all these texts here on screen.

607
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,280
And I think in the future,
maybe father Digging, you can join me

608
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,039
in some others we'll try to address
some of these Hebrew roots things that are

609
00:56:17,039 --> 00:56:22,880
getting more popular and growing. Again, if I'm on the airplane and the

610
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:27,119
brother next to me is playing we
with Kang's videos, like this stuff is

611
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:31,079
spreading so and I'm sure the internet, They're like, I'm sure entities are

612
00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:35,679
promoting it on the internet on purpose, so I'm sure they're getting algorithmic help

613
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:38,280
with all this just crazy nonsense.
But we do need to talk about this

614
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,880
stuff because you'll notice part of it
too, this is off topic. Somebody

615
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,920
asked me, did you cover the
event in Russia? I did so again,

616
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:51,280
go to my Twitter and I've got
I did a two hour talk with

617
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,320
Patrick henningson Syrian Girl. I did
a whole hour with Jack Pisobek and Alex

618
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,719
Jones. So you can go watch
that on Twitter. Can't put it on

619
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,559
YouTube. Obviously they're not gonna lie. So but you'll notice a lot of

620
00:57:02,639 --> 00:57:09,719
Black people are waking up to stuff. We've seen Candace, We've seen Kanye,

621
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:15,280
even though Kanye seems to be backing
away from Christianity. We've seen ice

622
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,400
Cube coming starting to admit and notice
some things we've seen Kat Williams talking about.

623
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:24,039
So there's this Black people are kind
of figuring things out in a good

624
00:57:24,039 --> 00:57:30,280
way, but then they're kind of
being offered all of these just ridiculous could

625
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,400
of sacks of insane cults to go
into. So I think I think maybe

626
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,000
they don't want black people waking up
to too much, and so they're giving

627
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:43,440
them these crazy cults and groups to
kind of corral them into so they don't

628
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:49,320
become effective, because as soon as
you get into some ridiculous Hebrew Israelite cult,

629
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:53,320
you're going to be completely an effective. In fact, a couple of

630
00:57:53,400 --> 00:58:02,840
the rappers who left the circles of
Diddy ended up getting into some of the

631
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,440
stupid nonsense. So exactly so a
good point. By the way, Chatter,

632
00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:13,360
there's somebody that chat pointed out that
one of the big black YouTube channels,

633
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:20,400
Gideon he converted to some form of
arianism. Bryceon Gray pushes arianism.

634
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:24,079
So all of these black people that
are kind of waking up to certain things

635
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:30,920
are then going into these ridiculous heresies
like Bryson Gray promotes speaking of It's really

636
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,559
funny. I had to block him
because I'm not supposed to be debating during

637
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,960
Lent, but Bryson was actually trying
to debate me just now on Twitter.

638
00:58:40,079 --> 00:58:45,199
Oh well, yeah, am I? Why am I going to debate you

639
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:51,480
when Jay destroyed you in the debate? Oh no, you didn't. That's

640
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,159
a bunch of bunch of words,
no meaning, I'm like, you know

641
00:58:54,199 --> 00:59:00,519
where we hear that phrase from the
eightheist clowns anything I don't like meaning his

642
00:59:00,599 --> 00:59:05,800
word salad, his word salad and
meaningless. But I mean everybody saw that

643
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,400
to talk about Dann Kruger. As
somebody points out in the chat, well

644
00:59:09,599 --> 00:59:15,559
so committed and so you know,
yeah, well you know he took a

645
00:59:15,599 --> 00:59:17,239
lot of quizzes though, right,
so you know how many Bible quizes he

646
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:22,480
passed? Oh? Is that that
that I forgot about that? No,

647
00:59:22,519 --> 00:59:24,480
he actually says that, He's like, how many Bible quids you take?

648
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:29,119
How many Bible queis you take?
I pass my all? And I said,

649
00:59:29,599 --> 00:59:30,719
and I talked about fallacies. He
said, what that he is?

650
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:36,159
What that he is? What that
is? That's your response when I call

651
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,519
anyway? Uh, all right,
let's get back to this real quick here.

652
00:59:42,719 --> 00:59:46,840
Let me get through the the opening
statement to Muslim Daniel Hikikichi, and

653
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:50,480
we're going to see how it applies
to Trent. He shot this later and

654
00:59:50,559 --> 00:59:55,159
go check the various sexual references here
for just examples up the offense. And

655
00:59:55,320 --> 01:00:00,800
the reason I included that the ofphenees
is that these are particularly for demonstrating the

656
01:00:01,079 --> 01:00:07,679
manifestation of Yahweh in the Old Testament, proving differentiation, So not just Yahweh,

657
01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:10,719
but also the Angel Messenger that he
sends, who has the name of

658
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:15,719
Yahweh as a root in Exodus,
the same angel that's present in the Burning

659
01:00:15,719 --> 01:00:20,639
Bush, that Angel has spoken of
as the Messenger of the Covenant, he's

660
01:00:20,639 --> 01:00:25,000
spoken of as in Judges, turning
the face of Yahweh towards Gideon in Judge

661
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:29,400
of six, and many many other
passages where he's identified, for example in

662
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:35,440
Judges thirteen as the Angel of Wonderful
Council. So you can check those references

663
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,000
later, or we can go back
to any of those and so let me

664
01:00:38,039 --> 01:00:45,320
go back to my screen share here
and points out that the triad there.

665
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:50,719
I don't mean to argue either,
that the Old Testament explicitly uses the words

666
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,320
triad. Know all this necessary,
as the Jewish scholars are admitting, is

667
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:59,880
that the Old Testament believers spoke of
Father, Angel, of the Lord,

668
01:01:00,199 --> 01:01:04,199
Son of Man, and the Spirit
in a real distinctive way. This is

669
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:08,280
really important. Everybody, please get
this point, because Trent didn't understand it.

670
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,920
Many Roman Catholics that I've made this
had this discussion with, and even

671
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,880
some of the Muslims have not understood
this. That you do not have to

672
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:22,880
know the word trinity to believe in
the Trinity. Okay, And that might

673
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,599
sound a little weird if you first
hear that, But we are not saying

674
01:01:25,679 --> 01:01:30,880
that Abraham had a mental conception of
the Nicene definition of the Trinity. Okay.

675
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:35,920
We're not saying that he doesn't have
to. What he has to have

676
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,239
a conception of, and what he
does have a conception of is Yahweh,

677
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,199
the Angel, the Lord, his
Messenger, who has they always name in

678
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,440
him, and who is worshiped,
who is the Messiah and the Spirit.

679
01:01:47,679 --> 01:01:52,039
And when we understand, for example, that Abraham had a meal with Jesus,

680
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:58,679
that Jacob wrestled with Jesus, that
Moses went up on the mountain and

681
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,440
ate a meal with Jesus, it's
starting to become a little clear. Oh

682
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:10,079
now, I see, it's Jesus
that appears to Samson's parents, to Manoah,

683
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:15,519
it's Jesus. Can I add something
there? I'm kind of tied into

684
01:02:15,559 --> 01:02:24,719
the again. I like what you're
saying that clearly we don't have, with

685
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:31,320
the Old Testament prophets, a nice, seeing worked out conception of the Trinity.

686
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:38,079
But it should be very clear it's
not a strict monotheism and monad And

687
01:02:38,239 --> 01:02:44,199
furthermore, is the Garby paper points
out, because we're talking about a reference.

688
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,000
When we use the term God,
what is referred to? Does it

689
01:02:46,079 --> 01:02:53,280
refer to some strict monad or generic? Is this what the prophets and patriarchs

690
01:02:53,280 --> 01:03:00,039
of the Old Testament is that what
it was referring to. No is the

691
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:06,239
Garribie paper points out, and I
write my papers that the referent is conditioned

692
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:13,519
by the paradigm, by the faith
in its entirety, such that the individual

693
01:03:13,679 --> 01:03:20,320
doesn't have to have a worked out
list of properties in various things that are

694
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:24,599
so that when they're referring to God, how do I know it hits it?

695
01:03:25,079 --> 01:03:30,480
Again? This is to conceive of
everybody's out on their own, developing

696
01:03:30,519 --> 01:03:32,800
their kind of own meanings of words. And I think it's really important to

697
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,880
understand that, you know, it's
conditioned by the entire paradigm the revealed Faith.

698
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:44,480
Think about it this way. The
children in the Orthodox Church in the

699
01:03:44,639 --> 01:03:51,239
services and they're praying to God,
do not have a work out nice seeing

700
01:03:52,239 --> 01:03:57,840
profound theological Well, who are they
praying to? They're praying to the Trinity?

701
01:03:58,079 --> 01:04:02,719
Yes, Now, how is that
pot exactly possible because they're baptized in

702
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:09,079
grafting to the faith as a whole. That count the wholeness, the conditions,

703
01:04:09,239 --> 01:04:13,599
that meaning and reference of that term
God. So the same thing with

704
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,760
the patriarchs of old in the Old
Testament. They don't have to have a

705
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,400
nice scene worked out. Clearly,
like I said, it's not a strict

706
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:29,599
monotheism, but the reference is established
by God in his divine revelations, such

707
01:04:29,719 --> 01:04:35,920
that the determines the reference to be
the Trinity, despite the inadequacies of our

708
01:04:36,039 --> 01:04:43,599
language or intellectual abilities. Absolutely.
Absolutely, That's another way to illustrate the

709
01:04:43,679 --> 01:04:50,039
same point to Trent is that Trent
right, intellectual conceptualization of the Trinity via

710
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:56,920
Niceno cous Metopolitan creed is not what
we're saying. Is the thing that makes

711
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,880
you quote trinitarian. And that's what
he really can't fathom because he's restrict And

712
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,559
I think he said something, or
maybe somebody else said something like, oh,

713
01:05:03,599 --> 01:05:09,360
so you're saying that an old in
the Old Testament they knew the Homo

714
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,519
Lucius. I mean, this is
they're saying, Oh, it's crazy.

715
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,679
No, No, obviously they wouldn't
know those terms, but they don't have

716
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:19,840
to because it's what Jesus explains here. And you'll notice this is right after

717
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,800
he had done this healing on the
Sabbath. Right. They sought to kill

718
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,920
him because he had done these things
on the Sabbath, and Jesus replied to

719
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,039
them in John five, my father
has been working until now, and I

720
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:34,880
have been working. The context is
Sabbath and violating the Sabbath by working.

721
01:05:35,239 --> 01:05:39,280
And the point is that when I
wait a minute, God the Father established

722
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:44,679
the Sabbath at the creation week,
Right, Jesus is assuming his Pharisee opponents

723
01:05:44,719 --> 01:05:46,679
also believe that, and he says, but wait a minute. You understand

724
01:05:46,719 --> 01:05:53,559
that God the Father has been working
also, and I have been working since

725
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:57,400
the Sabbath, since the creation of
the world in the sabbnth day back in

726
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,360
Genesis. So Jesus equating himself too
the same works as the Father from the

727
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,840
time of Genesis up. In other
words, I'm coequal to the Father.

728
01:06:05,159 --> 01:06:10,360
That's what seventeen means. And then
the Jews sought all the more to kill

729
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:15,360
him because they correctly perceived that he
was making himself quote equal to God verse

730
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,960
eighteen. So you understand that Jesus
is saying that I was doing all of

731
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:26,360
those works in the Old Testament.
And then he goes on to talk about

732
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:32,880
how that's why everybody in the world
will be judged through me, and then

733
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:38,119
he talks about various Old Testament witnesses. And as you know, from John

734
01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:42,119
five all the way to John nine, there's multiple discourses and discussions, particularly

735
01:06:42,519 --> 01:06:51,079
Chapter eight where Jesus explains that Moses
wrote about him right here. I've come

736
01:06:51,079 --> 01:06:54,719
in my father's name, but you
don't receive me. But if another comes

737
01:06:54,719 --> 01:06:57,800
in his own name, you will
receive him. How can you believe when

738
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,800
you receive honor from one another and
do not seek to honor comes from the

739
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:02,280
only God? Talking about God,
the Father, by the way, that's

740
01:07:02,599 --> 01:07:06,559
monarchical trinitarianism. Do not think that
I will accuse you to the Father.

741
01:07:06,639 --> 01:07:10,800
There's one that accuses you of Moses
and whom you trust. But if you

742
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,360
believe Moses, you would believe in
me because Moses wrote about me. The

743
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,639
writings that Moses are about Jesus.
Why is that because, as Peter says,

744
01:07:18,639 --> 01:07:24,079
it's the spirit of Christ that inspired
the prophets to write. Moses is

745
01:07:24,079 --> 01:07:27,679
writing by the spirit of Christ.
Is what Peter says, and how is

746
01:07:27,719 --> 01:07:30,480
he doing that, because Jesus is
the one that talked to Moses on the

747
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:35,400
mountain. That's the whole point of
John five or nine. So ironically,

748
01:07:35,519 --> 01:07:39,599
we're dealing with people who are not
just making Muslim argument, they're making like

749
01:07:40,079 --> 01:07:47,480
the Pharisee arguments, that's silly,
that says, Jesus says that Abraham rejoiced

750
01:07:47,519 --> 01:07:54,039
to see My day, and he
saw it and was glad. Now that

751
01:07:54,119 --> 01:07:57,599
means that just from that past,
as we at least know that Abraham knew

752
01:07:57,599 --> 01:08:00,800
of the Father and the Son,
we know from other passages that it's clearly

753
01:08:01,199 --> 01:08:04,639
Jesus that Moses is that Abraham,
excuse me, is having his meal with

754
01:08:05,559 --> 01:08:10,880
And when we find out in Genesis
that there's references to the Spirit, we

755
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:16,279
can deduce that Abraham thus had a
knowledge of God, the Father yaque,

756
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:23,560
his Angel, Lord Messenger that he
met with and ate with, and this

757
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:30,439
person of the Holy Spirit who also
appears throughout Genesis. Do you see this?

758
01:08:31,159 --> 01:08:33,600
So a lot of this also,
and I don't mean this in an

759
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,880
arrogant way, but a lot of
this comes from ignorance of the Old Testament,

760
01:08:38,159 --> 01:08:41,760
ignorance of what the texts actually say, and this, by the way,

761
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:45,520
is ironically I mean, it's not
ironic that Sam Shmun is good at

762
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:49,199
debating Muslims. But just go watch
a bunch of Sam Chamun's debates with Muslims.

763
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:57,560
He's almost always arguing Old Testament passages
when they talk about unitarianism to make

764
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,560
the very points that you hear me
making, how would that be possible?

765
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:03,920
But that this is the next one
I remember when I'd say. The other

766
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:08,760
point I want i'd say too,
is it's also not the case, by

767
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:12,079
the way, I think, how
silly this is. Think about so would

768
01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:15,720
we want to really argue that the
only knowledge of the Trinity comes when the

769
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:19,520
Trinity is formulated? Wait a minute, really, are we we sure we

770
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:25,720
want to go with that stupid argument, because if that's the case, then

771
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:30,800
the Gospels aren't teaching the Trinity because
the Gospels are prior to the nice Seene

772
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:35,840
definition or Tertullian's term trinitas, whatever
whatever point you want to pick in church

773
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:40,920
history where you think the Trinity is
quote first taught. And by the way,

774
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:47,439
that's the Muslim argument Constantine dit trinity, Tortolian make up trinity right,

775
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:51,760
that they have these silly arguments,
right, that it's made up. Well,

776
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:56,279
wait a minute. If that's the
case, then why were the church

777
01:09:56,319 --> 01:10:00,359
fathers appealing to the Old Testament and
the Gospel to prove the trinity. All

778
01:10:00,359 --> 01:10:02,560
you have to do is ask Trent, Trent, who what are they appealing

779
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:08,960
to to prove it? Oh?
The Old Testament? Has anybody read Tripho

780
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:13,479
Saint Justin against Triphi the Jew It's
one of the first things I read from

781
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:17,960
the Church fathers back in two thousand
and three. Guess what Justin does throughout

782
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:20,800
that apologetic treatise, Oh, the
very things that we do. He goes

783
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:29,560
with Theophanes and he proves the trinity
in the Old Testament to Tripho. And

784
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:35,319
that's prior to niceeing definition of trinity. Yes, I'm aware that Theophilist talks

785
01:10:35,319 --> 01:10:40,520
about the trinity Turtolian. I'm just
saying, it doesn't matter which post Apostolic

786
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:46,199
person you pick that uses the term
trinitas. It's ridiculous to think that we

787
01:10:46,319 --> 01:10:50,119
don't know about the doctrine of the
trinity until somebody uses the term trinity.

788
01:10:50,159 --> 01:10:58,680
It's just so silly. And I
prove that by pointing out that the apologists

789
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:08,800
post apostles who defend the trinity prove
it from where the Gospels and the Old

790
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,199
Testament. And guess what when you
go to the Gospels to prove the trinity,

791
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:16,680
especially the Book of John, where
does Jesus argue the Trinity from the

792
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:27,600
Old Testament? All It's all through
the Gospel of John. Anyway, Yes

793
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,359
I am. And then thank you
to Jiob and others in the Chat.

794
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,960
Yes, the sant Theopholis is good. Many of their early church fathers basically

795
01:11:34,119 --> 01:11:39,439
bear out all these points. Anyway, So let's move on to the rest

796
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:44,039
of this talk here and then we'll
kind of open it up pretty soon here.

797
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:48,479
But I want everybody to understand again, notice the pattern of Trent making

798
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:56,640
the same arguments from the Muslim position
with the same presuppositions as the Muslims.

799
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,720
And they do. Although many in
modern and modernity assume that Law of the

800
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:04,800
Prophets were strictly unitarian, Jewish scholar
Daniel Biaran notes that early Christianity actually represents

801
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:09,840
a conservative form of Judaism that sought
to remain faithful to the totality of revelation

802
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:14,680
in the Law of the Prophets,
including the texts of portray differing his hypostaces

803
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:21,000
in God another. Now that's a
really powerful admission. And again when I

804
01:12:21,039 --> 01:12:27,199
debated, I think I think Daniel
said this, and then Jake repeated this

805
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,439
as if they know I wasn't arguing
that Boyarin is a Christian. This is

806
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:36,039
so stupid, like they're like Jay
thinks that boy Yarwin is some kind of

807
01:12:36,279 --> 01:12:41,039
Christia. No, right, Remember
when Jake was making this kind of im

808
01:12:41,159 --> 01:12:45,359
heated argument, acting all ridiculous.
I didn't argue that I said that Boyarin

809
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:51,680
says that early Christianity is a quote
conservative form of Judaism seeking to remain faithful

810
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:58,800
to the multiplicity of Yahweh taught in
the Law and the prophets. That's all

811
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,399
I said. This is the term
hope hypostasis. I know Jumi Summers does.

812
01:13:04,319 --> 01:13:09,239
That's all I said. I didn't
say boy is a Christian and Jews

813
01:13:09,239 --> 01:13:14,159
are now admitting that we're all Christian
just total straw men. By the way,

814
01:13:14,279 --> 01:13:20,760
Uh, did you like my Jake
impression? Jay thinks that Boyarin was

815
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:28,359
some kind Christian? Remember remember Jake
getting all like animated, he was sperging

816
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:31,359
out over there. Do Jake had
like Parkinson's all of a sudden for that

817
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:35,079
debate, I don't know. Sit
still, dude, chill out. Anyway,

818
01:13:35,159 --> 01:13:40,600
Let's let's move on and along the
prophets, including the texts to portray

819
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:45,920
uh differing his hypostaces in God.
Another example of this is a recent Jewish

820
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,560
scholarship on divine fluidity and divine embodiment
in the Law and the Prophets. Now

821
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:53,640
again, I'm not Jewish. I'm
just pointing out that the admissions of Jewish

822
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:58,279
scholarship are to our position nowadays.
We are in in the Jewish Gospels,

823
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:00,760
the story of the Jewish christ Notes. For example, just from the example

824
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:04,640
from the text of Daniel seven.
By the way, that Peter Shaeffer text

825
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:09,159
was an I couldn't think of the
other text Shaeffer is the other one I'm

826
01:14:09,159 --> 01:14:13,399
trying to think of. We have
the discussion of the Messiah being divine,

827
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,479
the Messiah being in human form,
the Messiah appearing as younger than the Ancient

828
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:21,119
of days, the divinity of Ancient
of days. We have the Messiah appearing

829
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:27,199
eventually enthroned upon high and being given
dominion and authority over earth. That is

830
01:14:27,239 --> 01:14:33,760
the ascension and Christian theology. Now
early on in the early days of Christianity.

831
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:40,720
There were already rabbinical debates before Christianity
and Rabbinic Judaism completely parted ways where

832
01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:44,239
you even have people like famous rabbis
at Rabbi Akiva, for example, admitting

833
01:14:44,279 --> 01:14:46,720
that there is multiplicity in some sense
in the Godhead. This is covered in

834
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:51,079
Alan Siegel's Two Powers in Heaven and
in Shaeffer's Two Gods in Heaven. Now,

835
01:14:51,239 --> 01:14:56,880
god is a generic term that can
pick out a specific hypostasis, and

836
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,239
it can also pick out a generic
nature. So when it says two gods

837
01:15:00,279 --> 01:15:05,359
or two powers, it is not
indicating polytheism. It's merely indicating differentiation in

838
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:10,000
the texts Now again, by the
way, did you notice that what I

839
01:15:10,079 --> 01:15:15,920
just said there that undercuts the whole
bunch of nonsense that Jake tried to hinge

840
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:21,760
the entire argument on about Jake believes
in two gods. Little g Right,

841
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:27,039
Remember that I just explained what that
means right there, and it doesn't mean

842
01:15:27,039 --> 01:15:30,319
what he that's not already for Kabbala. I'm just pointing out as an example

843
01:15:30,399 --> 01:15:36,239
that Rabbinic Judaism is not a monolithic
unitarian philosophy. As Summer notes, this

844
01:15:36,319 --> 01:15:43,319
is a later Mamonidean feature and not
a Cabalistic or early Christian Judaic feature.

845
01:15:44,159 --> 01:15:48,000
Second tiple, Judaism in Christian in
Jewish scholarship was not monolithic, it was

846
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:51,159
not radical unitarian. It was fluid, and it did not admit God to

847
01:15:51,239 --> 01:15:58,520
be multiple due to later accretions.
In fact, Siegel and Summer's and other

848
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:02,239
admit that you can have a multiplicity
of persona. Now I point this out

849
01:16:02,319 --> 01:16:06,319
because this is a Muslim approach where
they will say, yeah, okay,

850
01:16:06,359 --> 01:16:12,680
maybe a lot of Jewish scholarship is
admitting that there's fluidity here in the notion

851
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:15,359
of Yahweh and him being not a
strictly unitarian thing. But this was a

852
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:20,359
quote late accretion. But no,
they don't say that. It's not a

853
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:27,079
rabbinical corruption of the texts. It's
the text themselves that have multiplicity in them.

854
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,880
And what does that multiplicity mean,
Well, it's a multiplicity of persons.

855
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:35,439
That's what Christians seech. That's what
Jesus is saying when he says that

856
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:40,920
he receives from the Father, that
he prays to the Father, he loves

857
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:46,199
the Father. Because that's two distinct
type of sases in early Jewish theology without

858
01:16:46,279 --> 01:16:51,800
that necessitating, for example, multiple
wills. This is also seen in the

859
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:58,000
process of the rabbis in their eventual
exclusion of logos theology, which is not

860
01:16:58,199 --> 01:17:02,119
a direct import from how Landism per
se, but rather from the wisdom tax

861
01:17:02,159 --> 01:17:06,239
of the Old Testament, the Solemonic
literature, and so forth. Jewish scholars

862
01:17:06,279 --> 01:17:12,960
like Simeon Halevi Scholin we Are in
Siegel and Summer admit that rabbinical dialogues and

863
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:17,680
debates on the wisdom logos text and
the Merkaba Chariot mysticism that draws from both

864
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:25,039
the Psalms Ezel Daniel and Nachic literature
all posit various divine embodiments, manifestations,

865
01:17:25,039 --> 01:17:30,079
and even incarnation. Now did you
notice that how crucial that is? In

866
01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:34,359
other words, even these modern Jewish
scholars who don't believe Christianity are admitting that,

867
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:41,600
look the texts of Psalms Daniel Ezekiel, the Anachic literature going you can

868
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:45,960
go back to Genesis Judges. They're
admitting a fluidity in the way that God

869
01:17:46,079 --> 01:17:50,159
manifests himself in time and space,
and the manifestation of God in time and

870
01:17:50,239 --> 01:17:58,840
space does not compromise his unity,
his simplicity, his sovereignty, his omnipotence,

871
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:00,840
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. All
of those things are what's in the

872
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:04,760
texts, the kind of God that
is revealed to us. And he can

873
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:11,359
come in a kind of quote form
what God has a form. Yes,

874
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:16,680
that's why throughout the law and the
prophets. Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on

875
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:20,640
a throne in Isaiah six, and
John says in John twelve that that's Jesus.

876
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:25,319
So Isaiah sees Jesus. I mean, if you've read Isaiah, and

877
01:18:25,319 --> 01:18:29,920
by the way, I just reread
Isaiah recently, I'm again reminded of why

878
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:34,680
it's called the Fifth Gospel. Do
you realize that giant portions of Isaiah are

879
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:40,640
just about Jesus and the church chapter
after chapter. Do you realize that not

880
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:46,199
just multiple Messianic prophecies about where Jesus
will be born, who his bloodline descendant

881
01:18:46,239 --> 01:18:50,920
would be from David, etc.
All of that, as well as countless

882
01:18:51,079 --> 01:19:01,199
prophecies of the Church the Gentile Church. In fact, heerabdical dialogues discuss the

883
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:08,520
divine Messiah suffering, dying, and
perhaps even atoning. One example is Rabbili

884
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:13,760
and Boar's Jewish Gospels discussing the Atoning
Death. And then my friend, the

885
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:18,199
Jewish Messianic Christian Kenami has a book
Jewish the Jewish Messiah Is it is a

886
01:19:18,279 --> 01:19:24,079
Judaism versus Judaism debate. Yeah,
this is important because, as ken points

887
01:19:24,079 --> 01:19:29,840
out in his book, he's got
a ton of quotes from how I mean,

888
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:32,720
everybody has this impression that like first
second, third century Judaism was like

889
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:38,439
this monolithic. Everybody had the same
view as like mimon Idies like that.

890
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:42,960
That's the assumption that everyone has.
Oh, Judaism's unitarian. You could go

891
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:45,760
to the Jewish US like Alpedia and
look up Theophanes, look up the Chakaina.

892
01:19:46,199 --> 01:19:53,479
They were debating into the Middle Ages
what the Theophanes were. Some of

893
01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:56,039
them said it's an angel, someone
that said it's a metatron. Someone said

894
01:19:56,039 --> 01:19:59,520
it's the essence of God in time
and space. Don't ask me how that's

895
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:04,399
possible, But if you read the
Summer's book, he basically says the essence

896
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:08,760
energy distinction. I mean, he
comes like this close to saying that the

897
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:15,680
way that Theophanies are possible is the
essence entergystinction. So basically saying that that

898
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,479
theophanies are all throughout the Old Testament. It's not an angel, it's some

899
01:20:20,119 --> 01:20:26,760
way in which the form of Yahueh
is manifest. That's Jesus again, just

900
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:32,319
illustrating that Judaism is not a monolithic
enterprise. Now, as we get back

901
01:20:32,359 --> 01:20:36,840
to embodiment, Drew scholar Benjamin Summer
notes and his law and the prophets that

902
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:43,279
they themselves in many texts that I
cited in my big whiteboard there display what

903
01:20:43,319 --> 01:20:46,800
he calls fluidity of Yahwe's ability to
be both imminent and transcendent, as well

904
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,479
as manifesting at certain times and in
certain places especial. And keep in mind,

905
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:55,159
Muslims do not believe that God is
imminent. Okay, there's no God

906
01:20:55,199 --> 01:21:00,000
in time and space at all.
So that's a fundamental attribute that Christianity belle

907
01:21:00,039 --> 01:21:03,399
leaves that God is present, He's
imminent in the world, that Muslims are

908
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:10,399
not modes and in special presences.
This is not entail or necessitate a change

909
01:21:10,399 --> 01:21:14,399
in Yahwe's essence or nature, or
rather that he's able to be embodied or

910
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:19,319
to manifest in various and distinct ways. Some are even admits that's the terminology

911
01:21:19,319 --> 01:21:23,199
of Summer. By the way,
that's not my argumentation. That's the way

912
01:21:23,239 --> 01:21:30,760
Summer argues his explanation of Yahweh's manifestations
in the Old Testament, which again it's

913
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:34,239
like we'll do why are you not
a Christian? Exactly and was not over

914
01:21:34,279 --> 01:21:40,520
a strict numerical oneness, because many
people in the ancient world did not always

915
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:45,439
count by strict identity, but rather
by division. Whether this distinction the hypostaces

916
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:49,239
allow for multiple wills is the real
issue according to Summer, and that,

917
01:21:49,279 --> 01:21:53,239
of course is note that I threw
that in there in the Daniel debate,

918
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:59,399
that the ancient world typically counted by
division and not by identity. That was

919
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:00,720
already in the day. But they
don't. These people don't pay attention.

920
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:04,399
But Muslims have no interest in being
precise and paying attention to what you're Actually,

921
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:08,640
very few of them, doctor Khalil
does. To be fair to doctor

922
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:12,840
Khalil, he cares. But most
of the online goobers in the Muslim world,

923
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:16,720
they don't care what you said.
That's trying to turn in through Jack.

924
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:20,279
You do not believe in multiple wills
in the Godhead. Summer cites many

925
01:22:20,279 --> 01:22:25,720
of the holy places in iconography iconography
replete throughout the Old Testament, law and

926
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:31,359
profits, including alterstones trees which are
dedicated to Yahweh. They're made wholly in

927
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:38,079
anticipation of the temple and tabernacle liturgical
services, which will also embody Yahweh above

928
01:22:38,119 --> 01:22:41,239
the arc of the chicina and so
forth a cloud well at the same time

929
01:22:41,319 --> 01:22:44,520
not embodying the divine in essence.
By the way, I don't I haven't

930
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:47,880
read the scholarship on this, but
I will bet you money that the Islamic

931
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:55,119
idea of Allah above the throne,
I bet you it comes from their misunderstanding

932
01:22:55,159 --> 01:22:59,159
of these texts, where Yahweh is
above his chariot throne, the ark in

933
01:22:59,199 --> 01:23:01,199
the temple, or what you see
in the Ezekiel one to ten texts.

934
01:23:01,319 --> 01:23:05,239
I bet you money that that's where
they got that misunderstanding, from anyway altering

935
01:23:05,319 --> 01:23:10,399
that way this As a side note, the Quran also appears to have inadvertently

936
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:15,199
left these references to the special presence
in text like U s. Six seventy

937
01:23:15,199 --> 01:23:18,319
one to eighty eleven seventy one eight. So, in other words, the

938
01:23:18,399 --> 01:23:23,880
Koran compilers were so stupid that they
didn't realize that these are Theophanes in the

939
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:27,159
Old Testament. So they just put
it in there and bypassed even trying to

940
01:23:27,159 --> 01:23:30,279
make sense of well not, wait
a minute, how is Allah present?

941
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,800
And by the way, there's actual
texts that reference I mean, there's references

942
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:38,960
to Theophanes in the Bible that are
in the Koran, which are clearly the

943
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:41,640
angel of the Lord. You see
how silly this is, like that that's

944
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:45,279
not possible in Islam all I was
not in time and space. There's not

945
01:23:45,319 --> 01:23:48,520
Theophanes. You understand that. Now. The challenge then, as I would

946
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:53,439
put it to Daniel, would be
to leave him. All right, So

947
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,159
we're gonna stop there, because the
rest of my talk there is not about

948
01:23:56,279 --> 01:23:59,239
uh, the Theophanes or anything in
the Old Testament. I don't think there's

949
01:23:59,239 --> 01:24:03,039
anything else in there but that.
Let me see, I just wanted I

950
01:24:03,119 --> 01:24:09,319
just I went on to say that
Old Testament is not Unitarian in some strict

951
01:24:09,359 --> 01:24:11,960
sense unless you presuppose it, and
then you have all these problems. This

952
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:15,079
is, by the way, guys, you realize this is why. Ever

953
01:24:15,119 --> 01:24:19,479
since Augustine struggles in book two or
three of On the Trinity with how there

954
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:24,840
are Theophanes? I mean, the
Latin Church has gone in the wrong direction

955
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:32,079
and they argue like Muslims. So
how do people not see this? Just

956
01:24:32,119 --> 01:24:35,039
people just don't know like Old Testament
theology, I guess is that what's going

957
01:24:35,079 --> 01:24:41,199
on here? Let's see, I
talked about contradictions and the narratives between the

958
01:24:41,239 --> 01:24:45,479
Corona and the Bible, so I
don't think there's anything else in that in

959
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:48,880
that talk, Father dickon is the
anything you wanted to comment on from the

960
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:53,159
Garibie paper. I mentioned it earlier
and I think I linked it you and

961
01:24:53,239 --> 01:24:56,439
I did a whole stream on it
right here, which I'll link again for

962
01:24:56,520 --> 01:25:00,600
people who want a deep dive on
the Garibie paper. And Father de Agan

963
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:03,399
and Nice joined me for that two
or three years ago, so you can

964
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:08,439
go deeper into that talk. There
are you still there? Is there anything

965
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:14,319
you want to comment on regard to
Trinity and the Old Testament? No.

966
01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:20,159
I Also there's some really good material
that I've covered in the Kadakises Continuing Education

967
01:25:23,319 --> 01:25:30,800
almost continuing Education camp, but continuing
the Education class from Father Pomazansky's book Orthodox

968
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:35,880
Theology that I recommend, where he
just goes over all the Old Testament passages

969
01:25:36,239 --> 01:25:40,720
that make reference to the Trinity so
I encourage people to check that out.

970
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:46,960
Yeah, so he has, as
he said, Katakis's lectures that are over

971
01:25:47,039 --> 01:25:50,840
on his channel Patristic Faith, where
you can find him discussing a lot of

972
01:25:50,840 --> 01:26:00,960
these Old Testament texts and passages.
I guess we I mean, I don't

973
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:02,560
know what other Let's see if I've
made all the main points I wanted to

974
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:05,279
make here, I mean, we
can go into I think that to do

975
01:26:05,359 --> 01:26:13,640
a full discourse on Old Testament Trinity
texts, it needs to be its own

976
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:16,279
talk. I'll go ahead and put
up the old talk that I did because

977
01:26:16,279 --> 01:26:24,680
it's still decent. But let me
always forget what I titled it. But

978
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:30,119
I will is the four or five
year ago talk on this where it's a

979
01:26:30,159 --> 01:26:33,439
three hour talk where we go through
we go through a lot of Old Testament

980
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:38,760
texts, not all the ones that
I'd like to update it with. So

981
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:42,920
you can watch that there, and
we'll go ahead and open it up to

982
01:26:43,159 --> 01:26:45,960
Q and a question. So I
see some people already kind of in the

983
01:26:45,039 --> 01:26:48,960
quay. If you want to speak, if you want to introduce an argument,

984
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:53,039
if you want to bring forth a
question, a challenge, I feel

985
01:26:53,079 --> 01:26:56,880
free to here with by requesting to
speak. I'll give you the microphone.

986
01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:00,359
Remember to unmute. Twitter space is
automatic mutes you. You've got to hit

987
01:27:00,399 --> 01:27:04,239
the unmute and just start talking,
and I'll let you know that I hear

988
01:27:04,279 --> 01:27:11,399
you, and I've got I've got
uh Bible gateway pulled up. We can

989
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:14,560
go to the the text here in
the old testament of going to We've got

990
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:16,279
no strette pulled up right here.
We can go to those texts if you

991
01:27:16,319 --> 01:27:21,279
want to. So if you've got
questions challenges, now's the time. Just

992
01:27:21,319 --> 01:27:24,479
hit request to speak. Thank you
for the super chest too. We'll read

993
01:27:24,479 --> 01:27:28,680
the super chests here in a minute. First up is missed cheese? What's

994
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:35,840
up? Missed cheese? Oh?
Hello, yeah, yes, sir,

995
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:41,159
you know what. Also, and
Genesee said, let's make us in our

996
01:27:41,239 --> 01:27:45,960
image, not just miamage. You
know, that's an immediate like tip off

997
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:50,760
that there's more more to this and
what we see. I think ultimately it

998
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:55,800
is a trinitarian passage. The problem
is that a lot of times it's just

999
01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:58,880
hand waved and people just say,
oh, well, that's just talking about

1000
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:03,079
the angels. And so even though
I do think it is triadic, when

1001
01:28:03,119 --> 01:28:05,920
we understand all the rest of the
passages. It makes sense. I just

1002
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:11,279
think that it's also I feel like
a lot of people say, like the

1003
01:28:11,359 --> 01:28:15,720
Trinitarian is the pagan because they ironically
have the sky fairy sky Daddy belief where

1004
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:20,800
they think God is just like a
guy, you know, Yeah, I

1005
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:27,319
think, yeah, in any anthropomorphic
excess. Uh and somebody with the Muslims,

1006
01:28:27,399 --> 01:28:30,319
Oh you're anthropomorphic? Oh you mean
like a bunch of how Islam as

1007
01:28:30,359 --> 01:28:33,479
anthropomorphic like we just saw with Jake, Like God is literally just a banker

1008
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:38,520
of bureaucrat. Or he has a
foot and a two right two right hands,

1009
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:42,880
a foot and a shen Yeah exactly. Yeah, I mean, well,

1010
01:28:43,079 --> 01:28:45,920
then again we say that Bill has
no needs because he never bows anyone.

1011
01:28:47,239 --> 01:28:50,880
But that's more fanciful writing than anything. But the way I see it

1012
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:55,479
is like his consciousness. You know, ego, super ego and ego.

1013
01:28:56,239 --> 01:28:59,840
They're all unique, separate parts of
yourself, but they're still, you know,

1014
01:29:00,159 --> 01:29:02,239
their own self. You're not tied
to my subconscious. You're tied to

1015
01:29:02,239 --> 01:29:08,359
my conscious, but the subconscious is
this within me? Or like like social

1016
01:29:08,359 --> 01:29:12,800
media is a good metaphor. You
have your account, Jay Dwyer, you

1017
01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:15,960
have the persona you portray through it, and you have the person yourself,

1018
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:21,600
like I see you as your account, that that is who I see you,

1019
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:26,479
as you present yourself in a way
that may not be who I see,

1020
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:29,399
but that you, who is you. It can be seen truly by

1021
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,079
you. And when we have small
glasses of it. And like I mean,

1022
01:29:32,159 --> 01:29:36,359
Jesus is called the Word, you
know, and as God. And

1023
01:29:36,399 --> 01:29:42,520
we're just guts, you know,
just tell the story. So anything we

1024
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:45,880
have and just an abstraction of his. You know, his word, his

1025
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:50,560
breath is alive, is living and
part of him. Like I'll tell you

1026
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:55,399
when I'm speaking to you right now, You're all you're getting is my word

1027
01:29:55,399 --> 01:29:58,520
and my breath, like the Holy
Spirit in Christ. But you never know

1028
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:04,720
me. Yeah, that overlaps somewhat
with some of the Patristic analogies, you

1029
01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:10,399
know, you do have the early
Apologists, and even up into the Cappadocian

1030
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:14,720
period you have people saying we can
make an analogy to the Father is like

1031
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:19,000
the mind. The logos is like
the word proceeding from the mind that expresses

1032
01:30:19,159 --> 01:30:24,079
the mind. So it becomes a
kind of an expression and image and icon.

1033
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:29,279
Jesus is the express icon of the
Father et cetera. So, yeah,

1034
01:30:29,319 --> 01:30:31,119
I think that there's some some value
in those kind of analogies, and

1035
01:30:31,159 --> 01:30:34,880
the Church fathers use that. Go
ahead. Also, I wanted to add

1036
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:41,319
to I'm not sure exactly what the
response is, but if we look at

1037
01:30:41,359 --> 01:30:50,760
the the the Hebrew texts in Genesis, the word elohen in the Genesis texts

1038
01:30:51,840 --> 01:31:00,800
hazard grammatical form of plural in number. Now, what response have you seen

1039
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:06,000
from unitarians? And I think they
try to say that that's God and like

1040
01:31:06,039 --> 01:31:12,560
the divine counsel, like God and
the angels is what they'll try to say.

1041
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:15,800
Okay, But I mean the problem
with that is that when we get

1042
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:19,479
into other texts, like say Ezekiel, right, Ezekiel one to ten,

1043
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:26,399
and I did a whole lecture on
this because it was such a powerful presentation.

1044
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:30,439
If you go to Ezekiel one to
ten, I mean we got explicit

1045
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:39,399
statements where the glory, the glory
of the Father is identified as this son

1046
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:45,159
of Man who rides the chariot.
He's so he's personified and we have the

1047
01:31:45,239 --> 01:31:53,720
spirit. In other words, the
Trinity is absolutely profuse in these chapters Genesis.

1048
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:57,399
I'm sorry, Ezekiel one to ten
and so the son of man is

1049
01:31:57,399 --> 01:32:00,680
the face of Yahweh. He's the
glory of Yahweh. He's the one like

1050
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:04,199
a son of Man, who is
the image of the Father. So all

1051
01:32:04,239 --> 01:32:09,000
of that is in Ezekiel one to
ten, and so it's just one of

1052
01:32:09,039 --> 01:32:11,840
the stronger I mean, there's many, but it's one of the stronger examples

1053
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:18,279
in the Old Testament where we can't
just relegate this form, this manifestation,

1054
01:32:18,560 --> 01:32:23,000
or what he's sometimes called the septus. He's called the voice, the voice,

1055
01:32:23,119 --> 01:32:27,680
the Word, the voice who appears
to Elijah and so forth. We

1056
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:31,560
can't relegate him to pure angel status
because he's identified as the glory. God's

1057
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:36,600
glory is not given to another.
Remember that in Isaiah. Right, Well

1058
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:40,520
wait a minute, now, there's
a form of God's glory in Ezekiel one

1059
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:44,560
to ten, who is the face
of Yahweh, who has the name of

1060
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,600
Yahweh in him, as it says
in Exodus I think twenty three. So

1061
01:32:47,640 --> 01:32:54,359
you see how you have to read
all of these passages together, and all

1062
01:32:54,399 --> 01:33:00,600
these passages together clearly give us that
God is not a strict unity. There's

1063
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:03,640
a sense in which he's unity.
Yes, there's also a sense in which

1064
01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:15,680
he has sun and spirit. Let's
say, next up is jiz Pair.

1065
01:33:17,039 --> 01:33:24,720
Okay, that sounds kind of gross, but whatever. Hello, yes,

1066
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:30,119
sir, Yeah, goblesshue Man and
gopeless Solva and a knife. Yeah.

1067
01:33:30,159 --> 01:33:35,039
I just wanted to say that I
don't see anyone using this passage, but

1068
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:42,920
it's an interesting passage for sure.
Can you go to Second Samuel, chapter

1069
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:48,479
twenty four of the sixteen and can
you read it? If you can,

1070
01:33:59,039 --> 01:34:05,359
I'm here, Yeah, can you
read it please? Wether's Second Samuel.

1071
01:34:08,159 --> 01:34:15,039
So this is when they built an
altar for at the threshing floor. Yeah,

1072
01:34:15,119 --> 01:34:18,079
when the Angel stretched out his hand
to destroy it, the Lord relented

1073
01:34:18,079 --> 01:34:21,399
from the destruction. It said,
who is a destroy that? People?

1074
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:25,520
Is enough? Restrain your hand.
The Angel Lord was by the threshing floor

1075
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:31,119
of Arana, the jebiside. Yeah. So if we read through the Tour

1076
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:38,800
and Judges and those books, we
established that the Angel of the Lord is

1077
01:34:40,199 --> 01:34:44,560
of God and that he's got himself. So I just wanted to ask who

1078
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:48,600
told the angel to stop? Well, I'm sure they would say it's it's

1079
01:34:48,720 --> 01:34:53,840
God, the Father, right,
Yeah. No, I just wanted to

1080
01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:58,520
point out an interest in verse because
it's the Father is plicitly talking to the

1081
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:04,199
son correctly, I don't. He
just says they should. Well, I

1082
01:35:04,239 --> 01:35:09,439
mean, I I've commented on it. We commented it on it fairly recently,

1083
01:35:09,439 --> 01:35:13,039
I think in one of the live
streams. But yeah, I mean

1084
01:35:13,079 --> 01:35:15,359
I think they're just gonna say that, well, that's just a created angel.

1085
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:19,880
So I agree with you that,
you know, typically Angel the Lord

1086
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:24,880
does signify the sun. But the
problem, the problem is that in this

1087
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:28,840
passage there's not anything that immediately tells
us that here, Angel the Lord is

1088
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:33,239
the second person. I think it
is, but they're just gonna say,

1089
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:36,359
well, that doesn't say that it's
the you know, second person. That

1090
01:35:36,399 --> 01:35:40,760
could be a creator, that's just
Michael or Gabriel or something. Yes,

1091
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:47,159
the typical typical. But yeah,
just yeah, that was a good passage.

1092
01:35:47,159 --> 01:35:53,399
I appreciate that. But I wanted
to remind everybody of what what we

1093
01:35:53,439 --> 01:35:55,600
see in Ezekiel. I guess so
I mentioned this a minute ago, but

1094
01:35:55,640 --> 01:35:59,960
you'll notice what we see in Ezekiel
is that when he sees the cherry,

1095
01:36:00,079 --> 01:36:06,199
it he sees that within the chariot
there's one that has the likeness of a

1096
01:36:06,239 --> 01:36:14,079
man, and as it goes down
we see that there's flashes and so forth.

1097
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:17,039
And then if you read Ezekiel one
all the way to chapter ten,

1098
01:36:20,079 --> 01:36:26,479
you notice the way that the appearance
of the man here is described. It

1099
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:32,640
is the appearance of the likeness of
the glory of God. And the description

1100
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:39,000
of the appearance here is identical to
the way that John in the Apocalypse describes

1101
01:36:39,119 --> 01:36:48,600
Jesus when he appears, So that
lets us know that it's the same figure

1102
01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:57,319
Jesus appearing to Ezekiel that appears to
John. And between Ezekiel one and then

1103
01:36:57,359 --> 01:37:01,680
eight and then ten you get a
lot of the same description. Okay,

1104
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:06,319
so do you understand people that want
to say this is a creature. It's

1105
01:37:06,319 --> 01:37:11,640
the image of glory. Okay,
God's glory is not a creature. And

1106
01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:15,720
everybody admits that this is the image
of the glory, the face of God,

1107
01:37:15,279 --> 01:37:20,720
the form of God, the voice
of God. I mean, there's

1108
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:27,199
there's guys, understand, there's tons
of these passages, and so this just

1109
01:37:27,319 --> 01:37:30,560
this dispute, this doesn't just destroy, by the way, the natural theology

1110
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:35,960
of nos Er Tat and Rome and
Trent. It also undercuts the the Muslim

1111
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:43,079
arguments and the Aryan arguments. All
right, let's move on to the next

1112
01:37:43,840 --> 01:38:11,840
Jared, you got to unmute man, Hey, can you hear me?

1113
01:38:12,159 --> 01:38:16,279
Sir, Jay just want to say
thank you for all your work. I'm

1114
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:21,000
for all you've done my eyes a
lot of ways. So yeah, I

1115
01:38:21,039 --> 01:38:26,600
guess the one question that I had
is, like you once mentioned that plan

1116
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:30,960
A for God was the incarnation.
Why was that plan A? Like,

1117
01:38:30,039 --> 01:38:34,199
why was that always from the from
the onset his plan to be an incarnate?

1118
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:40,439
I guess human being. Well,
I mean, we don't have an

1119
01:38:40,439 --> 01:38:43,720
exact answer as to why God created
or did these things other than I think,

1120
01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:45,159
you know, say, Maximus says, something like out of the goodness

1121
01:38:45,159 --> 01:38:50,439
of God. So presumably for the
same reason the second person always wanted to

1122
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:54,560
become incarnate. I don't know.
I don't know if we know the ultimate,

1123
01:38:55,079 --> 01:38:58,960
you know, ultimate reasons why God
wanted to do that. But the

1124
01:38:59,279 --> 01:39:02,279
answer is something just out of the
goodness of his own, his own overflowing

1125
01:39:02,279 --> 01:39:06,640
goodness, Bulan's goodness. Something like
that is what Maximus says. Okay,

1126
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:12,079
I see what you're saying, but
like coming from I guess the Roman Catholic

1127
01:39:12,279 --> 01:39:19,279
like penal substitution kind of no,
No, penal substitution is specifically a Reformation

1128
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:23,840
doctrine. It's not the Roman Catholic
doctrine. The Roman Catholic doctrine of its

1129
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:31,199
toeent is satisfaction, not penal substitution. So I guess what's like the Orthodox

1130
01:39:31,319 --> 01:39:39,880
understanding of the purpose of the incarnation
for redemption. Well, the purpose of

1131
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:45,000
the incarnation was always to deify Man
always, So it wasn't a plan b

1132
01:39:45,159 --> 01:39:48,840
when man felt because if you look
at what Paul says, Paul says,

1133
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:53,920
we are made in the image of
Christ. And this is another thing that

1134
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:58,199
refused natural theology. Man being made
in the image of God is in is

1135
01:39:58,279 --> 01:40:05,399
crystocentric. And if you get the
book Deification Paniotis Nellysi's book Deification, the

1136
01:40:05,439 --> 01:40:10,760
whole first chapter is answering what you're
asking. It's all about how Man was

1137
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:15,279
originally created as a model of Christ, as a model of the logos.

1138
01:40:15,319 --> 01:40:19,920
It's a Christo centric creation from the
beginning. That's the very basis for Paul

1139
01:40:20,000 --> 01:40:25,359
to say that Christ is a type
that Adam is a type of Christ because

1140
01:40:25,359 --> 01:40:28,920
he's made after Christ, He's made
the image of Christ. And for Roman

1141
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:31,359
Catholics, they just kept fathom this
very bizarre. Although to be fair,

1142
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:36,039
Franciscans do believe this. The Franciscans
are the only Roman maybe Scotis are the

1143
01:40:36,079 --> 01:40:41,960
only Roman Catholics that believe the Orthodox
position on this. I hear you,

1144
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:45,960
and then like one of the questions, who is kind of how you talked

1145
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:49,720
about Jacob wrestling with Christ? Like
obviously wrestling with God, but how does

1146
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:56,159
that work if Christ hasn't incarnated yet, who is like he physically wrestling with

1147
01:40:57,880 --> 01:41:00,319
Well, it's the same principle of
all the Theophanes. By the way,

1148
01:41:00,319 --> 01:41:03,319
here's this book, paniot Dosnell'stification in
Christ. The whole first chapter is about

1149
01:41:03,319 --> 01:41:08,640
how we are made in the image
of Christ. So I would recommend that

1150
01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:13,359
to people who are wondering about the
question. Well, there is a mystery

1151
01:41:13,359 --> 01:41:17,560
involved in Theophanes. We don't know
the exact mode in which he's able to

1152
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:23,399
be in time and space and to
wrestle in this way. But yet that's

1153
01:41:23,399 --> 01:41:27,439
what we have in the texts.
And so this is partly why the Orthodox

1154
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:32,000
Church talks about the Essen centered distinction. It's partly there to explain the Theophanes

1155
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:36,000
in the Old Testament. And roma
galviiks have a hard time with this because

1156
01:41:36,039 --> 01:41:41,840
they think, well, if there's
physicality or solidity involved in some way,

1157
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:46,640
it must sat Gregory Palamas says,
we don't know the means that this occurs,

1158
01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:50,680
but we know that it does occur. And to your point, like,

1159
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:54,119
that's kind of the problem that I
noticed with Rome is how they try

1160
01:41:54,159 --> 01:41:57,439
to put everything in all these little
boxes at the point where they just it

1161
01:41:57,479 --> 01:42:00,720
doesn't make any more sense. Well, and here's the thing. If you

1162
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:03,560
follow with the logic of Roman Catholics, when they argue against the oftanes in

1163
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:11,560
the Old Testament, they are unwittingly
undercutting the incarnation itself. So because if

1164
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:14,600
God is an absolutely simple essence,
let me give an example. So in

1165
01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:18,920
Phaser's Five Proof Books, in the
Neoplatonic proof chapter, he says that we

1166
01:42:18,960 --> 01:42:24,600
can use the Neoplatonic arguments to prove
quote God, the classical theist version of

1167
01:42:24,640 --> 01:42:30,239
quote God. And he says,
because they argue forcefully that the absolutely simple

1168
01:42:30,279 --> 01:42:33,159
monad cannot be in time and space. Okay, do you understand that that

1169
01:42:33,279 --> 01:42:38,000
makes the incarnation no longer possible impossible? Yeah, it makes it impossible.

1170
01:42:38,399 --> 01:42:41,800
And like, just touching on that
and kind of the Old Testament in nuta

1171
01:42:41,800 --> 01:42:44,479
A tante, because that was one
thing that called my attention from the get

1172
01:42:44,520 --> 01:42:45,960
go. I was like, wait
a second, I have to morally assent.

1173
01:42:46,079 --> 01:42:50,880
The idea that I worship the same
gods as Jews and Muslims doesn't make

1174
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:55,039
it. So I spoke with one
of my Catholic priests about it, and

1175
01:42:55,119 --> 01:42:58,479
I explained kind of what you're explaining, how Abraham worshiped the treaty and kind

1176
01:42:58,479 --> 01:43:01,359
of like how Christ himself says,
Abraham saw me and exaw my day,

1177
01:43:01,399 --> 01:43:04,279
and yeah, he rejoiced on his
body. And he was like, no,

1178
01:43:04,279 --> 01:43:08,279
no, no, I think that
Abraham knew of the Trinity as we

1179
01:43:08,359 --> 01:43:12,319
know it now. Obviously he didn't
have the like you said, the nice

1180
01:43:12,479 --> 01:43:15,680
and definition of it. But he
completely disagreed with the notion that Abraham worshiped

1181
01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:20,119
Christ in the Testament. Well,
then he's disagreeing with what Jesus. He's

1182
01:43:20,119 --> 01:43:24,079
disagreeing with Jesus because Jesus says,
Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he

1183
01:43:24,119 --> 01:43:28,920
song was glad exactly. But that's
like, that's the Roman Catholic position is

1184
01:43:29,000 --> 01:43:31,840
false. Well, that's why the
Roman Catholic position is a false God.

1185
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:36,079
It's a Unitarian natural theology deity,
the same thing that the Muslims argue,

1186
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:42,800
by the way, hold on to
be clearer too. To be very precise,

1187
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:48,199
I believe Bishop Irna argues that it's
also possible that the body of Christ

1188
01:43:48,279 --> 01:43:56,960
that you see wrestling with Jacob is
actually the deified flesh of the incarnate Christ

1189
01:43:57,119 --> 01:44:00,479
outside of time and space. So
because he's deified now, out of time

1190
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:04,439
and space, he can then step
into you know, wrestling with Jacob,

1191
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:09,199
even though he's not incarnate yet.
I think that Bishop Irna makes that argument,

1192
01:44:09,239 --> 01:44:14,319
which I think is a plausible,
plausible as well. But even if

1193
01:44:14,399 --> 01:44:16,960
even if we even even if we
say that, by the way, uh,

1194
01:44:17,079 --> 01:44:23,279
I mean, there's the same problem
still is their quote problem with any

1195
01:44:23,319 --> 01:44:26,279
other theophany like the Chicaina, right? I mean here we have the glory

1196
01:44:26,319 --> 01:44:30,560
cloud coming down or the pillar of
fire in the desert in the desert,

1197
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:32,800
I mean these the same questions can
be raised about that as well. So

1198
01:44:33,039 --> 01:44:38,279
even if we wanted to be really
picky and say, well, how is

1199
01:44:38,319 --> 01:44:42,840
a theophany God in time and space
coming and going? Well, this exact

1200
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:47,359
question is raised in the Triads and
Sangreary Palomas just says God is not bound

1201
01:44:47,399 --> 01:44:49,880
by time and space. He can
do these things. We don't know how,

1202
01:44:50,399 --> 01:44:56,079
and we don't have to inquire into
the scholastic definitions of how it's possible

1203
01:44:56,079 --> 01:44:59,199
and then say then saying well God
can't do it. I mean, it's

1204
01:44:59,239 --> 01:45:01,239
just it's not the answer or that
he gives. And that's why, to

1205
01:45:01,279 --> 01:45:08,880
be really clear here, like what
Palamas says is completely consistent with what we're

1206
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:13,439
seeing in the Old Testament. Yeah, And it's funny because every time I

1207
01:45:13,760 --> 01:45:15,920
kind of bring up some of these
questions, they would say, just pretty

1208
01:45:16,000 --> 01:45:20,279
rosary, just just pray a rosary. I got, I got. These

1209
01:45:20,279 --> 01:45:23,680
are kind of big these are these
are huge deals. I mean, the

1210
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:28,119
whole idea of like created versus uncreated
grace and the tomistic sense and the Palomite

1211
01:45:28,119 --> 01:45:30,760
says. But the thing that got
me was was how because I went to

1212
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:34,039
a Melchite church and Palamas is a
is a venerated saint there, So how

1213
01:45:34,079 --> 01:45:38,760
can you at one point be a
heretic and and then now be a saint?

1214
01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:42,119
But I guess to keep it on
the topic of the Old Testament,

1215
01:45:42,920 --> 01:45:45,760
and like you mentioned before, like
the monarchy of the Father, Like how

1216
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:49,760
does the monarchy of the father,
not imply like any sort of superiority.

1217
01:45:50,039 --> 01:45:54,159
Like I understand they're all coequal and
co eternal. But when I hear a

1218
01:45:54,159 --> 01:45:57,479
monarchy, I just think of like
one ruling over the other. If that

1219
01:45:57,520 --> 01:46:00,720
makes sense, right, So I
recommend that everybody who who's interested in this

1220
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:03,439
question, I'm going to put the
link in the thing here. So here's

1221
01:46:03,479 --> 01:46:09,479
doctor Branson's five I think it's a
five video lecture series on the monarchy of

1222
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:13,319
the father. And so no,
there's not can you mute? It's really

1223
01:46:13,359 --> 01:46:19,279
loud about growmanry. So look the
word monarchy, there's nothing about it that

1224
01:46:19,359 --> 01:46:25,520
necessitates onto logical status above another.
Okay, so for example, let's think

1225
01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:29,520
about a monarch and his son.
Okay, between a king and the prince,

1226
01:46:30,199 --> 01:46:32,319
do they share the scent? Can
you mute, manusca it keeps getting

1227
01:46:32,399 --> 01:46:38,239
loud. Just mute? Yeah,
thanks. So between a king and a

1228
01:46:38,279 --> 01:46:43,600
son, there is a premiscy of
origin. But in terms of nature,

1229
01:46:44,479 --> 01:46:47,479
does a king have more human nature
than the prince? No, of course

1230
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:53,119
not. They equally have the same
nature because the prince has the same authority,

1231
01:46:53,399 --> 01:46:58,039
powers and rule, assuming in the
analogy that he's also you know,

1232
01:46:58,439 --> 01:47:08,800
taking the throne, we'll say,
but he's distinct, So there's nothing about

1233
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:13,920
there's nothing about the fact that the
Father is the sole cause that makes him

1234
01:47:14,399 --> 01:47:17,520
onto logically superior to the Son when
the Sun, as we just saw in

1235
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:21,279
John five, Jesus says that I
have been working all the works the Father

1236
01:47:21,319 --> 01:47:24,840
does I do. I've been doing
the same works as the Father since the

1237
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:28,720
creation of the world. So as
Basil says, when he argues this with

1238
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:33,880
Eunomias, he says, same works, same powers, same energies, prove

1239
01:47:34,039 --> 01:47:38,680
same nature. And that's also how
he argues that the Holy Spirit is just

1240
01:47:38,720 --> 01:47:41,520
as divine as a father in the
Sun, because the Holy Spirit does the

1241
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:45,199
exact same works and operations as the
Father and the Son. Therefore he has

1242
01:47:45,239 --> 01:47:50,960
the same nature. But everybody in
the Orthodox world, I'm sorry to me

1243
01:47:51,039 --> 01:47:54,840
to cut you off. Everybody in
the Orthodox world who is interested in this

1244
01:47:54,960 --> 01:48:00,159
question in contrast to Islam and in
contrast to Roman Catholic natural theology, he

1245
01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:05,359
should definitely go watch doctor Branson's lectures
on the monarchy of the Father, because

1246
01:48:05,399 --> 01:48:12,159
it's all from he wrotes his dissertations
on the Capitosians, and one of the

1247
01:48:12,239 --> 01:48:15,920
questions I'm struggling to answer with a
lot of my Muslim friends, is well,

1248
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:18,600
how could an infinite being? You
know, how could an infinite God

1249
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:25,560
become finite? But did Christ ever
become finite by taking human form? Or

1250
01:48:25,640 --> 01:48:28,399
is that just a well, this
is the passage. So this is the

1251
01:48:28,439 --> 01:48:33,239
Philippians passage called the canosis. So
he enters into a mode of being that

1252
01:48:33,439 --> 01:48:42,399
is unique without losing his divinity.
So he willfully chose not to exercise all

1253
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:45,079
of his powers and operations, which, by the way, means that God

1254
01:48:45,119 --> 01:48:47,640
is not reducible to act as purists, because if God is reducible to pure

1255
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:53,279
act, there's no such thing as
limiting and choosing not to actualize all of

1256
01:48:53,319 --> 01:48:58,039
your powers. So the canosus passage
of Philippians is another way to refute this

1257
01:48:58,079 --> 01:49:00,159
point. But it's answering the very
question that you that you're asking, which

1258
01:49:00,199 --> 01:49:05,479
is that he willingly chose to enter
into a mode of being as man,

1259
01:49:06,439 --> 01:49:10,760
which is different from the motive being
what he was prior to that. This

1260
01:49:10,920 --> 01:49:14,680
is explained in John one right where
it says, even though he was amongst

1261
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:17,399
us walking around, and we touched
him and saw him, he was still

1262
01:49:17,520 --> 01:49:23,920
in the bosom of the Father.
So he never surrendered his divine nature even

1263
01:49:23,960 --> 01:49:29,640
though he entered into a motive being
that was unique and in a sense and

1264
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:34,239
in a sense in a sense wilfully
quote limiting. Right. And so when

1265
01:49:34,239 --> 01:49:38,960
you say in the bosom of the
Father, I mean you're there united in

1266
01:49:39,079 --> 01:49:44,439
thought, mind, will those things? That's a passage referring to It's referring

1267
01:49:44,479 --> 01:49:49,680
to the fact that he never ceased
being the eternally generated son. So even

1268
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:54,840
in even while he's incarnate walking around
with us, he is still the eternally

1269
01:49:54,920 --> 01:49:59,359
generated son of the Father. Got
you, got you, okay? And

1270
01:49:59,399 --> 01:50:02,000
that's what the whole whole passage of
John one is essentially making this point,

1271
01:50:03,479 --> 01:50:09,600
right, I guess my last question
is coming from the Roman Catholic, like

1272
01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:14,399
the sort of appeasement a doctrine of
salvation and like what I used to do

1273
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:18,680
with the mass, with the with
this holy sacrifice, what is sort of

1274
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:26,720
the the dox because I I when
I read online, like what's the Orthodox

1275
01:50:27,000 --> 01:50:34,119
per or I guess view of salvation
and a home approach. You could get

1276
01:50:34,159 --> 01:50:39,600
the Pomazansky book and there's a there's
actually a good chapter in the Pomazansky book

1277
01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:44,640
answering this very question, contrasting it
to both the Protestant doctrine and the Roman

1278
01:50:44,680 --> 01:50:48,319
Catholic satisfaction doctrine. Brother dickon,
did you want to say some Yeah,

1279
01:50:48,399 --> 01:50:57,399
it's a great actual section because he
has a lot of great footnotes to explaining.

1280
01:50:58,520 --> 01:51:03,119
One of the things that comes to
using is that the same term might

1281
01:51:03,159 --> 01:51:08,760
be used by different face, but
it doesn't mean the same thing. So

1282
01:51:08,800 --> 01:51:13,279
people can get really confused by this, and so Father Pomazansky has a lot

1283
01:51:13,279 --> 01:51:20,039
of footnotes explaining this that although the
word atonement may be used or even penalties,

1284
01:51:20,239 --> 01:51:26,359
it's not the same as what's meant, and Calvinism or the Roman view

1285
01:51:27,359 --> 01:51:33,479
and fight in fact sites even some
of the canons and councils on this.

1286
01:51:34,359 --> 01:51:40,319
So it's really really good to check
that out. I would also recommend for

1287
01:51:40,399 --> 01:51:45,520
a little deeper discussion beyond what Pomazansky
says, which Pomazansky is a great introduction

1288
01:51:45,560 --> 01:51:49,000
of. Father Dakin said, there's
a really good chapter in the New Mayandoor

1289
01:51:49,039 --> 01:51:56,119
of Papadocus book where it gets into
the Byzantine synods that define in what sense

1290
01:51:56,760 --> 01:52:02,760
the offering is triadic, and so
the offering of the humanity of the Sun

1291
01:52:03,039 --> 01:52:08,760
is an offering that the sun does
to the entire triad. There's actually a

1292
01:52:08,960 --> 01:52:17,239
Byzantine Synod that that has a controversy
that inadvertently refutes the Protestant doctrine of penal

1293
01:52:17,279 --> 01:52:21,840
substitution. If you understand the teaching
of this of this doctrine, excuse me

1294
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:30,760
of this. It's the two local
councils. That's fifty seven, gotcha,

1295
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:33,720
all right? Yeah, I'll definitely
have to check that out. Because the

1296
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:38,159
whole notion of penal substitution it just
kind of if you really think about it,

1297
01:52:38,079 --> 01:52:40,640
it kind of just leads to atheism
in a lot of ways because it

1298
01:52:41,279 --> 01:52:45,479
just doesn't make any sentense. And
the old idea of like cosmic child abuse.

1299
01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:48,439
It just so that that's kind of
what I grew up with. If

1300
01:52:48,479 --> 01:52:51,800
you have the Papa Doocus Mindorf book, it discusses it starting on page one

1301
01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:57,920
eighty nine, and it's the controversy
over the deacon Sotikos Satiricos is a proto

1302
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:04,840
Protestant penal substitutionist, and the decision
of the Byzantine Synods in not reaffirming what's

1303
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:10,920
clearly the orthodox view of the fact
that the divine person of the Sun deifies

1304
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:15,600
the flesh. It's an offering of
love, not a penal substitution damnation situation.

1305
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:21,560
By the way, I just realized
something in my last class that I

1306
01:53:21,600 --> 01:53:28,279
was teaching on the catechisas continuing education. We're talking about the Roman view of

1307
01:53:29,079 --> 01:53:35,239
indulgences and merits, and so keep
in mind that Protestants are responding to that.

1308
01:53:35,279 --> 01:53:39,560
And as I brought up for you, I argue this in my PhD

1309
01:53:39,720 --> 01:53:49,000
thesis as well that oftentimes when somebody
responds or critiques another system, they may

1310
01:53:49,239 --> 01:53:55,199
reject something in that, but they're
embracing the whole conceptual paradigm. That's the

1311
01:53:55,279 --> 01:54:00,680
problem itself. So one of the
things that we see is the Roman Catholics

1312
01:54:00,760 --> 01:54:08,520
have this kind of merit, like
the salvation that you can store up merits.

1313
01:54:09,079 --> 01:54:15,079
I made a joke that it's like
there's a standing reserve of heavenly bitcoin

1314
01:54:15,159 --> 01:54:21,039
which can be sold and or even
given by the pope. But they have

1315
01:54:21,159 --> 01:54:30,960
this really weird kind of mathematical idea
that this is where ye gods are being

1316
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:33,520
counter gods, of being counter keeping
up with all of these things, that

1317
01:54:33,680 --> 01:54:43,079
yeah, there must be this cosmic
reconciliation, that balance. So the idea

1318
01:54:43,079 --> 01:54:47,720
of like justice for them is merits
and numbers. And so then what you

1319
01:54:47,840 --> 01:54:53,720
get is you get the reformers responding
to that saying, well, no,

1320
01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:56,479
you can't be, you know,
saved by any merits that you do.

1321
01:54:56,640 --> 01:55:00,680
But guess what they embrace. They
embrace the exact septual paradigm. Yes,

1322
01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:05,640
as Jesus pays the merit many ways. So then they develop a penal substitutionary

1323
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:13,039
atonement based on merit based theology.
It's crazy, yeah. So the Catechism

1324
01:55:13,039 --> 01:55:15,159
of the Catholic Church says an indulgence
is obtained through the Church, who,

1325
01:55:15,159 --> 01:55:18,359
by virtue of the power binding and
loosing, renting to her, rented her

1326
01:55:18,399 --> 01:55:23,680
by Christ intervenes. And this is
who can read this? I mean most

1327
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:26,239
of the Roman Catholics left her boomers. There's no way they could read this

1328
01:55:26,359 --> 01:55:30,119
tiny text. The treasury of merits
of the saints of in Christ obtained from

1329
01:55:30,159 --> 01:55:33,159
the Father, the mercies of the
remission of the temporal punishments for their sin.

1330
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:38,039
The Church does not want to simply
come to the aid of Christians,

1331
01:55:38,039 --> 01:55:42,279
but also to spur them to works
of devotion, penicin charity, so that

1332
01:55:42,359 --> 01:55:46,880
you can basically there's an infinite bitcoin
spiritual storage that the church, the pope

1333
01:55:46,920 --> 01:55:50,119
can tap into. And this is
by the way, where he doles out

1334
01:55:50,279 --> 01:55:54,920
the h when you see like you
get a full plenary indulgence if you pray

1335
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:57,920
on your knees going up the steps
of the Via del Rosa. This is

1336
01:55:57,920 --> 01:56:00,720
because the pope can tap into this. One of the things, by the

1337
01:56:00,720 --> 01:56:04,640
way, that that Luther really called
into question, I think in adequately it

1338
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:10,359
was correct about calling this in the
question. Yeah, you made a great

1339
01:56:10,399 --> 01:56:12,359
point the other day about how like, well, what if one of those

1340
01:56:12,359 --> 01:56:15,920
indulgences is going to a waba game
or something like that, And it was

1341
01:56:15,960 --> 01:56:18,199
like, you're you're so true because
it's a worship of authority and it's so

1342
01:56:18,319 --> 01:56:25,079
legalistic to where it creates this very
dry and brittle faith. So when I

1343
01:56:25,159 --> 01:56:28,800
kind of discovered the Orthodox view of
like sin is a disease and then you

1344
01:56:28,840 --> 01:56:31,319
have the medicine, it kind of
just changed the game for me. I

1345
01:56:31,319 --> 01:56:35,239
guess one of the things too,
is like now that I'm kind of new

1346
01:56:35,279 --> 01:56:39,560
to Orthodoxy and you know, I'm
in a real courts church now, but

1347
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:43,239
how do you I guess, keep
track of like who's in communion with who?

1348
01:56:44,239 --> 01:56:47,039
Because I've also heard things about like
the genuine Orthodox Church or like true

1349
01:56:47,199 --> 01:56:50,079
like I don't know, I just
I want to get a valid you know

1350
01:56:50,079 --> 01:56:53,840
you, Chris, And how do
you know who's valid? And I guess

1351
01:56:53,880 --> 01:56:57,760
who's not? If that makes sense, well, typically the only people like

1352
01:56:58,279 --> 01:57:03,479
obsessing over a validity are the people
who in those very tiny they're sort of

1353
01:57:03,479 --> 01:57:06,239
like the Orthodox version of the set
of a contest, right, which are

1354
01:57:06,319 --> 01:57:12,119
I mean, they're even more minuscule, tiny, tiny online groups, far

1355
01:57:12,159 --> 01:57:15,880
smaller than the Roman Catholic set of
a contest. Like the idea of sort

1356
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:19,720
of obsessing over the validity in this
sort of technical canonical that's a Roman Catholic

1357
01:57:19,760 --> 01:57:26,479
attitude. So the fringe Orthodox are
exactly the same as the set of a

1358
01:57:26,520 --> 01:57:30,960
contest in terms of obsessing over validity. You don't really see this obsession in

1359
01:57:30,079 --> 01:57:34,960
the Orthodox world over quote validity.
So it's all a Latin mindset. And

1360
01:57:35,319 --> 01:57:39,680
I mean I would just simply appeal
to her and everything being you know,

1361
01:57:40,479 --> 01:57:45,039
everything's sussed out according to like strict
validity. I mean, this is that

1362
01:57:45,079 --> 01:57:53,720
the whole mindset of the Latin tradition
post Scholasticism is obsessed with this. It's

1363
01:57:53,720 --> 01:57:58,720
almost like religion as a technology and
God. I can get God to do

1364
01:57:58,800 --> 01:58:02,800
what I want in the master whatever
when I follow this formula like a magic

1365
01:58:02,920 --> 01:58:05,840
ritual, and then God has to
do what I want. And even if

1366
01:58:05,880 --> 01:58:10,800
I'm ordained as a Roman Catholic priest
and that day I've become a Satanist,

1367
01:58:11,000 --> 01:58:15,520
God still has to, uh,
you know, be present in my consecrations

1368
01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:18,199
of the Eucharist to blasphem it.
That's literally their view. So that but

1369
01:58:18,239 --> 01:58:20,800
that whole mindset's wrong, That's what
I'm trying to say. So I would

1370
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:27,119
say it's gonna it's gonna take time
to lose the legalistic sort of Latin mindset.

1371
01:58:27,159 --> 01:58:30,119
I know because I was in the
same boat as you. But I

1372
01:58:30,159 --> 01:58:32,119
think when you look at I mean, David has some good critiques of the

1373
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:38,680
uh the true Orthodox theories of blackout. So basically their view is it's actually

1374
01:58:38,680 --> 01:58:44,199
an impossible view because anytime there's a
mistake, everybody that's not it's not just

1375
01:58:44,239 --> 01:58:47,000
that that guy loses all grace.
It's very donatistic in the sense that literally

1376
01:58:47,079 --> 01:58:51,479
everybody around them also loses grace.
Well, that's the case then we've all

1377
01:58:51,479 --> 01:58:55,720
lost grace. I mean, it's
a really an impossible, uh sort of

1378
01:58:55,760 --> 01:59:00,960
purest type of donatist position. So
look up David videos on the quote true

1379
01:59:01,039 --> 01:59:05,319
Orthodox. Those are really good for
sure. I will Yeah, that was

1380
01:59:05,319 --> 01:59:08,840
pretty much all the questions I had. Thank you all for your time,

1381
01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:11,840
and again, thank you for your
work. I really appreciate it. Thank

1382
01:59:11,880 --> 01:59:16,760
you. Hey, I'm gonna have
to battle out. Is okay? Anybody

1383
01:59:16,880 --> 01:59:23,279
have any questions before I leave?
Well, it depends on who I bring

1384
01:59:23,359 --> 01:59:27,319
up, so I don't know.
We'll see on the next person i'll bring

1385
01:59:27,399 --> 01:59:31,159
up. We'll see if there's any
questions for FDA solo, what's up?

1386
01:59:42,479 --> 01:59:46,239
Can you hear me? So?
I'm Protestant and I wanted to know like

1387
01:59:46,279 --> 01:59:54,560
the most common reputation against Protestism,
well, I would say two strong refutations.

1388
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:58,039
The two ast strongest that come to
my mind would be that the church

1389
01:59:58,119 --> 02:00:00,920
is necessary to know and to und
understand what the canon of scripture is,

1390
02:00:00,920 --> 02:00:05,720
so that would refute solid scriptura.
And the second argument would be that most

1391
02:00:05,800 --> 02:00:12,479
of the classic Protestant models of how
we're saved imply either that Jesus is a

1392
02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:17,159
Nestorian human person who undergoes punishment,
or that the second person, the Godhead,

1393
02:00:17,239 --> 02:00:20,920
undergoes the punishment for us, and
that would be anti trinitarian. So

1394
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:24,960
those are the two strongest I can
think of. Yeah, and I'd add

1395
02:00:25,000 --> 02:00:30,279
to the again, most of the
Protestant errors and heresies are based on kind

1396
02:00:30,319 --> 02:00:45,800
of more fundamental philosophical and theological errors
and heresies, for example, occasionalism,

1397
02:00:45,960 --> 02:00:50,279
what's the other, nominalism, these
various things that they're kind of premised on

1398
02:00:51,279 --> 02:01:00,039
that lead them to kind of make
the mistakes that they do. Okay,

1399
02:01:00,760 --> 02:01:04,880
I won't say I'm convinced because I
think where Deem Zumer has already talked about

1400
02:01:04,880 --> 02:01:10,640
that, and he's like the strongest
Protestant. So well, did you see

1401
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:18,760
our debate? Yeah, he destroyed
you? Really, by the way,

1402
02:01:18,840 --> 02:01:23,359
you might like, I'm coming up. I'm bringing a new beer. It's

1403
02:01:23,399 --> 02:01:27,880
called the Dunning Krueger Beer. It's
a great name for a beer, but

1404
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:32,600
it sounds to me like you've already
been drinking some. So yeah, what

1405
02:01:32,600 --> 02:01:38,399
what? What are a couple of
places where he destroyed me? Uh,

1406
02:01:38,640 --> 02:01:44,680
he's overall likes a stronger What's now
where specifically in our debate did he destroy

1407
02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:48,800
me he's a better Christ. Specific
now, he's a better quote Christ.

1408
02:01:48,800 --> 02:01:55,279
So you don't have an actual argument
because because you don't what, you're drunk.

1409
02:01:55,359 --> 02:01:59,079
So get out of here. That's
all they have. He's more pious

1410
02:01:59,119 --> 02:02:04,399
than you. Yeah, really coming
from like classic case of a prest Right,

1411
02:02:08,560 --> 02:02:12,760
we're gonna use a protest to determine
who's more pious or not. Stan,

1412
02:02:12,880 --> 02:02:15,720
what's up? Put up? Man? I heard you talking about the

1413
02:02:15,720 --> 02:02:20,720
Angel of the Lord ear there.
Yeah, that's Jesus. Yeah. Everybody

1414
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:27,439
who thinks not they can get out
of here. Well you agree, yeah,

1415
02:02:27,239 --> 02:02:30,399
Uh, that's shoulder Isaiah ninety six. Yeah, the Angel of the

1416
02:02:30,479 --> 02:02:35,319
Angel of counsel Uh yeah, exactly, wonderful counselor minded God. Yeah,

1417
02:02:35,399 --> 02:02:42,520
that's a judge thirteen or eighteen.
Correct. Well, well Isaiah also refers

1418
02:02:42,560 --> 02:02:50,920
to him as the wonderful thank you. Yeah, good quotes, young logo.

1419
02:02:51,000 --> 02:03:01,439
What's up man? The old subject? What's on your mind? Man?

1420
02:03:04,199 --> 02:03:10,840
Just uh been dealing with a lot
of Jehovah witnesses and I'm sure that

1421
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:15,000
you've probably talked about this in previous
episodes. So sorry if I waste your

1422
02:03:15,039 --> 02:03:23,199
time, but if you were using
like the uh like the historical analysis of

1423
02:03:23,279 --> 02:03:28,079
like the Old Testament. You mentioned
how there's like some Jewish scholars who mentioned

1424
02:03:28,079 --> 02:03:36,319
the you know, the theophanies.
How would you one cover that to like

1425
02:03:36,359 --> 02:03:41,880
a Jeovah witness where they're where they
may use the Old Testament as examples of

1426
02:03:42,000 --> 02:03:46,000
strict monotheism. And then in the
New Testament. I think you mentioned this

1427
02:03:46,039 --> 02:03:51,680
a little bit in regards to the
monarchy of the Father and passages in the

1428
02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:57,479
New Testament where it specifically kind of
shows a in quotes hierarchy between the Father

1429
02:03:57,520 --> 02:04:00,760
and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Well, I mean the doctor in

1430
02:04:00,760 --> 02:04:05,520
the Trinity you know, comes from
the totality of the Bible, So there's

1431
02:04:05,560 --> 02:04:12,279
not any unfortunately, like one specific
area which is like gonna nail all of

1432
02:04:12,319 --> 02:04:15,039
these points because you kind of have
to work through a few different points.

1433
02:04:15,520 --> 02:04:18,880
But if you go watch my video
that I have right here, it's called

1434
02:04:19,399 --> 02:04:24,880
is Jesus God and is God a
Trinity? Response to critics, and that

1435
02:04:25,000 --> 02:04:30,399
still functions as a good response to
because I actually made this video and response

1436
02:04:30,439 --> 02:04:32,680
to a guy who was basically Joe's
witness. So I would say check out

1437
02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:36,000
that video and note all the different
texts because there's not gonna be one text.

1438
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:39,600
But by the way, in respon
in response to the previous guy,

1439
02:04:40,479 --> 02:04:44,359
I know that Jesus is called the
Angel of the Lord the wonderful. His

1440
02:04:44,439 --> 02:04:47,680
name is wonderful in Judges. But
the point I was making about Isaiah,

1441
02:04:48,039 --> 02:04:51,159
and this is the point that Sam
Schmun showed me, is that when it

1442
02:04:51,279 --> 02:04:57,960
calls the child wonderful counselor here in
Isaiah ninety six, his name as wonderful

1443
02:04:58,079 --> 02:05:00,479
is a reference to Judges. That's
why I'm mentioned wonderful there, so that

1444
02:05:00,680 --> 02:05:05,520
lets us know that the one who's
named wonderful in Isaiah ninety six is the

1445
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:10,880
same wonderful in Judges thirteen. That's
the point I brought. I was making

1446
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:15,199
there, so I would stress to
the Joe's Witness type people that you know,

1447
02:05:15,319 --> 02:05:18,439
all of these Theophanes consistently make this
point that the angel is worshiped.

1448
02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:24,039
Okay, so we're not supposed to
worship creatures. So the message an angel

1449
02:05:24,079 --> 02:05:26,560
just means a messenger, Okay.
It can be a created messenger or an

1450
02:05:26,640 --> 02:05:30,840
uncreated messenger. In our view,
and our review makes sense of all the

1451
02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:34,399
texts. Their view has to say
that, well, sometimes the angel is

1452
02:05:34,439 --> 02:05:39,439
worshiped so I guess you can in
some cases worship creatures. But actually,

1453
02:05:39,680 --> 02:05:44,720
if you think about it, Joe's
witness theology, if they worship the created

1454
02:05:44,800 --> 02:05:48,319
Son, then they are idolators.
So and maybe they won't say that.

1455
02:05:48,359 --> 02:05:51,720
Maybe listen, no, we don't
worship Jesus, he's just our example.

1456
02:05:53,119 --> 02:05:58,520
But Arians actually did worship the Son
and they thought he was the first thing

1457
02:05:58,600 --> 02:06:01,520
that God the Father created. And
as the Orthodox argued, then you are

1458
02:06:01,560 --> 02:06:05,159
now an idolator because you're worshiping a
creature. So the key point here is

1459
02:06:05,199 --> 02:06:09,720
that we all should agree we can't
worship creatures. So then we have this

1460
02:06:09,800 --> 02:06:12,800
problem. Then well, then what
about these theophanies that are worshiped, and

1461
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:16,359
they're clearly worshiped multiple times, they're
called If you read the Gideon text,

1462
02:06:16,359 --> 02:06:20,680
it says the angel of the Lord
turned yahweh turned his face to Gideon.

1463
02:06:23,399 --> 02:06:42,199
Oh interesting new alogion. Hello,
Hey, hey, Jay, that's going

1464
02:06:42,279 --> 02:06:45,000
on. I called in about a
year ago and I had some comments that

1465
02:06:45,039 --> 02:06:50,479
I happened to re listen to today
because I wanted to recall that conversation and

1466
02:06:50,520 --> 02:06:55,279
I just wanted to refresh your memory
because we were talking about and since you're

1467
02:06:55,319 --> 02:06:58,479
talking about natural Theology today, I
wanted to bring it up again. I

1468
02:06:58,680 --> 02:07:04,880
was talking to you about Schard's essay
Christianity and the Metaphysics of Logic, and

1469
02:07:05,039 --> 02:07:09,760
also Zogbies. We are all schismatics, and I just wanted to bring that

1470
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:14,199
up again because I think it would
be really awesome if you made your way

1471
02:07:14,199 --> 02:07:16,880
through those especially well. I did
get I think you also mentioned nine hundred

1472
02:07:16,920 --> 02:07:20,279
Years Together, and I bought that, but I couldn't get the Zogbi text

1473
02:07:20,319 --> 02:07:25,760
because it's always out of print and
sold out. Okay, I have it

1474
02:07:25,800 --> 02:07:29,520
in a pdf. I can send
it to you. I can maybe DM

1475
02:07:29,600 --> 02:07:32,039
you over. You can. It's
just I hate PDFs. I just yeah,

1476
02:07:32,239 --> 02:07:34,000
I mean I can go have it
printed out if I have to.

1477
02:07:34,119 --> 02:07:39,199
But sounds good. Yeah. Well, anyway, if you have lineaments,

1478
02:07:39,239 --> 02:07:43,079
it'd be awesome to hear your take
on Christianity and the metaphs of metaphysics of

1479
02:07:43,159 --> 02:07:46,800
logic. I feel like it's a
really powerful tool against natural theology and all

1480
02:07:46,800 --> 02:07:51,000
the rest of that stuff. Let
me write around that. I'd be much

1481
02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:58,600
appreciated. Yeah, I also wanted
to ask, Sorry, no, I'm

1482
02:07:58,600 --> 02:08:01,319
just saying I'm writing it down because
I won't remember. But yeah, I

1483
02:08:01,920 --> 02:08:05,159
haven't read that shard essay in probably
ten years, but I'm familiar with it.

1484
02:08:05,239 --> 02:08:07,279
I remember what he's arguing. I'll
have to go back and redo it.

1485
02:08:09,079 --> 02:08:11,840
Cool sounds good, Hey, And
then I wanted to ask quickly if

1486
02:08:11,880 --> 02:08:20,399
you could give briefly, like a
summary of what Blackernee taught, because I

1487
02:08:20,479 --> 02:08:24,279
hear a lot about Blackernee from you
and others, and I have the I

1488
02:08:24,319 --> 02:08:26,239
have the book That Crisis in Byzantim, but I haven't gotten around to it

1489
02:08:26,319 --> 02:08:30,880
yet. But I'd love if you
could just give a quick summary of what

1490
02:08:30,880 --> 02:08:37,319
Blackerne actually taught about the Holy spirity. Well, we have lectured on that,

1491
02:08:37,600 --> 02:08:43,760
so fuller talks can be found in
our discussions of eternal manifestation. I

1492
02:08:43,840 --> 02:08:48,800
just had doctor Branson on where we
covered Philly Oquay and Blackernee. So you

1493
02:08:48,960 --> 02:08:54,840
go go watch the Monarchy of the
Father Philly Oakuay discussion with doctor Branson maybe

1494
02:08:54,960 --> 02:09:01,840
three or four months ago. Another
way to see this summation of these of

1495
02:09:01,960 --> 02:09:07,840
this of this, what's is the
tomos against John becos those That's another good

1496
02:09:07,880 --> 02:09:11,000
kind of summary. Are you familiar
with that? No, I'm not.

1497
02:09:13,000 --> 02:09:16,920
I think you can find the temost
against Becos on the line. Let's see,

1498
02:09:16,920 --> 02:09:20,680
I think this is it. So
these are some of the examples of

1499
02:09:20,800 --> 02:09:22,359
Yeah, so this is from Crisis
and Byzantium. I think it's one of

1500
02:09:22,399 --> 02:09:28,319
the chapters in it. But if
you're looking for a summary of what's taught,

1501
02:09:28,479 --> 02:09:33,920
read this right here. Exposition of
the tomas of faith against John beckis

1502
02:09:33,239 --> 02:09:37,640
because Becos was the Byzantine Latinizer,
and by the way, this would by

1503
02:09:37,640 --> 02:09:41,720
extent extension, condemn all the Ecumenists, it would condemn all the people who

1504
02:09:41,760 --> 02:09:46,800
are pretending that we teach the same
thing as the Roman Catholics. The tomost

1505
02:09:46,800 --> 02:09:52,800
against John Becos is denying all that. So it's basically just stating that the

1506
02:09:52,960 --> 02:09:58,000
philioquay doctrine is in the Roman Catholic
sense, according to Lions of a double

1507
02:09:58,079 --> 02:10:03,399
eternal hypostatic procession, is false.
And the only sense in which there's a

1508
02:10:03,439 --> 02:10:07,479
relationship between the Son and the Spirit
is the manifestation and movement of the Spirit

1509
02:10:07,560 --> 02:10:13,039
through the Son, and so that's
what through means. So that's the tulmost

1510
02:10:13,039 --> 02:10:18,760
against John Becos. If you wanted
like the summary of what's going on in

1511
02:10:18,800 --> 02:10:24,279
these medieval Palamite synods and so that's
why this article cites the Byzantine the Papa

1512
02:10:24,319 --> 02:10:31,920
Down's book. Okay, So,
as far as I understand, both from

1513
02:10:33,439 --> 02:10:41,039
and through the Father are anathematized in
the sense of procession hyposthetic procession. But

1514
02:10:41,119 --> 02:10:45,079
there is a certain there's an energetic
through the Son. Correct, and that's

1515
02:10:45,079 --> 02:10:48,319
the teaching of Gregory Cyprus. Correct. Awesome, All right, well,

1516
02:10:48,319 --> 02:10:52,520
thank you so much. J Yeah, great question. Yeah, and thank

1517
02:10:52,520 --> 02:10:58,800
you for reminding me of those those
points you made a year ago. Leonid.

1518
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:13,640
What's Leonid? Either? Hello?
Hey, Hello, what's up?

1519
02:11:15,640 --> 02:11:22,960
Yes? I have a question regarding
the excuse me for my English stuff,

1520
02:11:24,000 --> 02:11:30,800
my native language. I have a
question regarding the scroll of Esther, the

1521
02:11:30,840 --> 02:11:37,760
Book of Ester. Yes. I
don't know a lot about the textual scholarship

1522
02:11:37,760 --> 02:11:41,520
around Esther. I do know that
the Orthodox Study Bible, for example,

1523
02:11:41,600 --> 02:11:46,479
has the longer chapters of Esther,
so it has like Esther, m,

1524
02:11:46,199 --> 02:11:52,000
Esther, b, Esther c.
So, but I don't know much about

1525
02:11:52,039 --> 02:11:56,600
the textual scholarship around Esther. Yes. So one question is like, is

1526
02:11:56,680 --> 02:12:07,720
the church see it like an historical
book or like an allegorical story, you

1527
02:12:07,800 --> 02:12:11,359
know, like, what is the
position of the church regarding this I'm not

1528
02:12:11,520 --> 02:12:18,920
aware of any specific statement on the
status of the text. I my feeling

1529
02:12:20,079 --> 02:12:26,039
is that it's presented as a historical
text, so I would tend to think

1530
02:12:26,119 --> 02:12:31,479
that it's a historical text. There
might be you know, allegorical meanings and

1531
02:12:31,520 --> 02:12:41,920
symbolisms found within it, for sure, like typological symbols. Yeah, yeah,

1532
02:12:41,960 --> 02:12:43,479
okay, I get it. That's
say, thank you very much.

1533
02:12:43,640 --> 02:12:46,399
Yeah, that's a great question.
I actually actually am not. I mean,

1534
02:12:46,439 --> 02:12:50,039
I've read Esther, you know,
many times, but I don't actually

1535
02:12:50,039 --> 02:12:54,720
know a lot of this sort of
scholarship around Esther. I have to admit,

1536
02:12:54,239 --> 02:13:01,079
m K. Graffen Nagel, what's
up. Hey, I hope you're

1537
02:13:01,079 --> 02:13:05,000
doing well. Yes, sir,
I just have two questions, especially just

1538
02:13:05,039 --> 02:13:11,159
the two parter, and you touched
on it briefly. I watched doctor Branton

1539
02:13:11,279 --> 02:13:16,600
you talk about the trinity and the
relationship and the monarchia, and I want

1540
02:13:16,600 --> 02:13:18,439
to get a clarification on this so
I could tie it to my second part

1541
02:13:18,439 --> 02:13:28,319
of my question. Doctor Branson said
that the Father, Son, and Holy

1542
02:13:28,399 --> 02:13:35,479
Spirit. Essentially, the Son and
the Holy Spirit are the left and right

1543
02:13:35,600 --> 02:13:39,119
arm of the Father. That's how
the monarchia makes sense. That's what I

1544
02:13:39,159 --> 02:13:43,239
heard him say, so, I
want to know if you confirm that definition.

1545
02:13:43,520 --> 02:13:48,920
I think if I remember, and
I've got the video pulled up.

1546
02:13:48,039 --> 02:13:52,680
So for those that are interested in
this regard, this relates to the previous

1547
02:13:52,680 --> 02:13:56,079
guy's question about black Renee. If
you want to watch that discussion here it

1548
02:13:56,119 --> 02:13:58,520
is, I'm a link it for
you guys. If I remember, doctor

1549
02:13:58,520 --> 02:14:05,439
Branson said that this is in one
of the Cappadocians because because he was responding

1550
02:14:05,479 --> 02:14:11,560
to the Filioque in the sense that
if if the that triangle is inverted,

1551
02:14:11,680 --> 02:14:15,439
if it's flipped over, then it
makes the Son and the Father kind of

1552
02:14:15,520 --> 02:14:20,640
like yeah it. Then it becomes
you know, multiple gods and you got

1553
02:14:20,640 --> 02:14:24,319
a problem. They become buddies.
Yeah, those are his words. So

1554
02:14:24,600 --> 02:14:28,399
I wanted to know, is that
a fair way to look at it?

1555
02:14:28,439 --> 02:14:33,960
To see the Sun and Holy Spirit
as the left and right arm. So

1556
02:14:33,039 --> 02:14:37,319
I think all the analogies will be
limited because, for example, if we

1557
02:14:37,439 --> 02:14:43,920
only had that analogy, we might
miss the close connection that the Spirit and

1558
02:14:43,920 --> 02:14:52,000
the Son do have. And so
so this has raised that Blackerney and Florence,

1559
02:14:52,159 --> 02:14:56,560
which deals with whether or not the
Spirit rests in and manifest through the

1560
02:14:56,600 --> 02:15:00,880
Sun. So in one sense,
in terms of hyposthetic origin, I think

1561
02:15:00,880 --> 02:15:05,279
it would be correct to use the
two arms analogy, But in terms of

1562
02:15:05,199 --> 02:15:11,560
manifestation it doesn't work because the Spirit
has to move and manifest through the son.

1563
02:15:11,039 --> 02:15:16,600
So both are true, but they're
limiting. I guess it's the two

1564
02:15:16,680 --> 02:15:22,319
hands and the two hands analogy works
as in one essence, so's they're all

1565
02:15:22,359 --> 02:15:26,840
attached. But yeah, well it
works. It works in terms of hyposthetic

1566
02:15:26,920 --> 02:15:31,960
origin, but it doesn't work in
terms of manifestation. I see because because

1567
02:15:33,199 --> 02:15:37,640
the reason why that was sound in
my mind, that made sense that analogy

1568
02:15:37,760 --> 02:15:43,479
is because given that the Father is
the fountain on the head and he's the

1569
02:15:43,520 --> 02:15:48,680
source, he's the auto FiOS,
it makes more sense for me to digest

1570
02:15:48,680 --> 02:15:52,560
it that way. And I guess
this. I guess I'll say my second

1571
02:15:52,560 --> 02:15:56,199
part of the questions, so you
know where I'm coming from. In the

1572
02:15:56,279 --> 02:16:03,920
liturgical prayers, the priest continuously emphasizes, you know, Christ, our God,

1573
02:16:03,079 --> 02:16:07,840
Christ our God, Glory to Christ, our God. And yes,

1574
02:16:07,920 --> 02:16:11,159
sure there's the Holy Spirit and the
Father are mentioned, and there's a prayer

1575
02:16:11,159 --> 02:16:16,640
for the Father, but it seems
like Christ is highlighted above all. And

1576
02:16:16,680 --> 02:16:22,600
I want to know, since the
Orthodox position emphasizes the monarchia, and isn't

1577
02:16:22,720 --> 02:16:28,920
the Catholic bilioquid. I wanted to
know why isn't the Father emphasized instead of

1578
02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:31,879
instead of the Son, because that's
what I seem to see every Sunday.

1579
02:16:33,639 --> 02:16:37,639
I mean, I don't know about
totaling up like emphasis. I mean,

1580
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:41,680
you know, when I go to
church, it's to me the emphasis seems

1581
02:16:41,680 --> 02:16:46,040
triadic. So I mean, but
maybe there is some sort of numerical reference

1582
02:16:46,079 --> 02:16:50,079
to the Son more than the Father
and the Spirit. I don't know.

1583
02:16:50,200 --> 02:16:58,360
I've always I just haven't that giving
more focus or supremacy to the Father in

1584
02:16:58,399 --> 02:17:03,520
the sense. And I don't mean
this and the subordination hierarchical to a standpoint,

1585
02:17:03,559 --> 02:17:05,840
even though there's an element of that
with the monarchy. I mean in

1586
02:17:05,920 --> 02:17:09,879
terms of the origin factor of him
being the source. And I think even

1587
02:17:09,920 --> 02:17:15,559
Branson explained it in that way that
kind of like a big bang. Even

1588
02:17:15,600 --> 02:17:22,479
though he happens, the Father happens
like existed throughout all times, the Logos

1589
02:17:22,520 --> 02:17:28,600
and the Holy Spirit happen immediately after, like they exist immediately after. If

1590
02:17:28,639 --> 02:17:31,520
that makes sense. I don't know
if I'm butchering his explanation of it.

1591
02:17:33,520 --> 02:17:41,120
Yeah, I don't know what to
say I see. Okay, any recommendations

1592
02:17:41,280 --> 02:17:43,479
to get a better clarification on that, or am I just looking at it

1593
02:17:43,520 --> 02:17:50,200
wrong? Well, doctor Branson always
answers emails, so, like, I'm

1594
02:17:50,200 --> 02:17:54,520
sure he would be happy to answer
your email if you go to his website.

1595
02:17:54,959 --> 02:17:58,559
Can his academic emails right there?
So he would definitely be better for

1596
02:17:58,600 --> 02:18:01,840
that kind of a question. Sure, okay, Yeah, well appreciate it.

1597
02:18:01,959 --> 02:18:05,360
Yeah, thank you, man.
I'm sorry I wasn't better to answer

1598
02:18:05,440 --> 02:18:09,479
that, but but yeah, doctor
Branson ifles knows more than I do on

1599
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:28,440
those topics. K h f F, what's up? Hell? Yeah,

1600
02:18:28,520 --> 02:18:35,399
I was just curious. I know
that you usually your point of study is

1601
02:18:35,879 --> 02:18:41,040
theology and metaphysics, but I was
wondering had you seen anything on J Smith

1602
02:18:41,360 --> 02:18:48,319
and kind of the work that he's
done recently a lot of people have mentioned

1603
02:18:48,399 --> 02:18:50,639
him to me, and I just
haven't got around to it. It's not

1604
02:18:50,719 --> 02:18:54,559
at all that I'm trying to ignore
it, but I hear that his critiques

1605
02:18:54,559 --> 02:19:00,680
of Islam are pretty devastating. Yeah, they are very devastating. It's definitely

1606
02:19:00,680 --> 02:19:07,760
a different point of argument than yours. But does he have a channel.

1607
02:19:07,760 --> 02:19:11,719
Where where do we find him?
Yeah, so that's fand Or films.

1608
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:20,319
It's PF another p F A N
D E R films, And he does

1609
02:19:20,440 --> 02:19:26,239
interviews with a lot of academics that
are doing studies like on the ground.

1610
02:19:28,440 --> 02:19:33,680
Yeah, so he goes that route. But it basically his argumentation is that

1611
02:19:33,799 --> 02:19:41,479
the Sassinated Empire created Islam as a
way to combat the Roman Empire because all

1612
02:19:41,520 --> 02:19:46,360
of their peoples were Christian and they
couldn't fight each other, so they had

1613
02:19:46,399 --> 02:19:52,200
to convert them to this new religion
that was better than Christianity, and therefore

1614
02:19:52,600 --> 02:20:00,079
you see those additions like you know, spoils of war and just incentives to

1615
02:20:00,079 --> 02:20:03,559
to go to war. Basically interesting, So that's his arguments. You know,

1616
02:20:03,719 --> 02:20:09,760
I've I don't know a whole lot
about that specific historical period, but

1617
02:20:09,840 --> 02:20:16,399
I've wondered in my mind if at
times Islam wasn't just appropriated by certain monarch

1618
02:20:16,520 --> 02:20:22,600
sultans, the Ottomans and so forth, because it does seem to fit very

1619
02:20:22,600 --> 02:20:26,280
well with a kind of geopolitical type
of agenda. And I think that today's

1620
02:20:26,760 --> 02:20:31,920
intelligence agencies as well know enough to
know that, you know, Islam can

1621
02:20:31,959 --> 02:20:37,840
be crafted and molded very well into
kind of geopolitical skeleton skeleton key type of

1622
02:20:37,879 --> 02:20:48,559
operations. Yeah, his main points
of attack are the coenage that were used

1623
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:56,360
in the time of Muhammad and directly
after Muhammad, all still there Christian symbols

1624
02:20:56,399 --> 02:21:03,479
like priests and crosses and things like
that. And then apparently there's thirty two

1625
02:21:03,520 --> 02:21:07,159
thousand different versions of the Qur'an instead
of just the one that Muslim's always referred.

1626
02:21:07,200 --> 02:21:09,840
Well, we had the burning of
them to try to get one version

1627
02:21:09,879 --> 02:21:16,559
of it right. So now that's
interesting because in the Oxford Handbook of Islam,

1628
02:21:16,840 --> 02:21:20,559
I noticed reading through a bunch of
the entries in that for the for

1629
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:28,559
the Jake debate, there was a
really good chapter early on about how it

1630
02:21:28,639 --> 02:21:35,520
is the scholars now do affirm that
it's arian and historian versions of Christianity that

1631
02:21:35,680 --> 02:21:41,319
influenced early Islam. And that's interesting
because John Damascus says that in his heresiology,

1632
02:21:41,520 --> 02:21:43,120
who was one of the first who's
writing I think for one of the

1633
02:21:43,120 --> 02:21:46,680
Sultans. He was a scholar for
one of the Sultans as an orthodox Christian,

1634
02:21:48,079 --> 02:21:50,559
and so I think at times people
took issue with this. I said,

1635
02:21:50,600 --> 02:21:58,000
oh, it's not influenced because because
if it's influenced by like Christian tudepigrapha

1636
02:21:58,520 --> 02:22:05,840
and Talmudic tradition and and you know, heterodox Christianity like arians and historians,

1637
02:22:05,040 --> 02:22:09,799
then that means it's not a new
revelation to Mohammad. So and if you

1638
02:22:09,840 --> 02:22:13,639
read the Gabriel Site Reynolds book,
which is one of the texts that I

1639
02:22:13,719 --> 02:22:18,399
read for the Daniel debate, you
know Reynolds has a list well, that

1640
02:22:18,680 --> 02:22:26,559
whole book is really about discrepancies and
contradictions in the Biblical narratives versus the way

1641
02:22:26,559 --> 02:22:31,120
the Quran depicts certain Biblical narratives.
And that would also suggest, for example,

1642
02:22:31,159 --> 02:22:37,200
there's influence of the Seven Sleepers of
Ephesus, There's the Testament of Abraham.

1643
02:22:37,840 --> 02:22:41,479
There's all these pseupergraphic texts that seem
to have made their way into the

1644
02:22:41,559 --> 02:22:48,879
Quran. So clearly there's these these
sort of oddball, weird influences, including

1645
02:22:48,920 --> 02:22:54,159
Astorianism and Arianism that play into Islam
as well, which basically seems to be

1646
02:22:54,239 --> 02:23:03,120
vindicated. Now. Yeah, another
thing it that he goes over is there's

1647
02:23:03,159 --> 02:23:07,159
like these secret passages in the Quran
I guess that nobody can interpret or something

1648
02:23:07,280 --> 02:23:11,840
like that. And basically if you
do, do you mean like you mean,

1649
02:23:11,879 --> 02:23:16,559
like the passages where you're you're not
you're forbidden to inquire into the meaning

1650
02:23:16,600 --> 02:23:22,440
those kinds of pastors, Well,
there's some passages that they don't even understand

1651
02:23:22,520 --> 02:23:24,600
what it said. Yeah, that's
what I'm talking about it. Yeah,

1652
02:23:24,600 --> 02:23:26,799
and they'll say, all you can
inquire into those, yeah, right.

1653
02:23:26,920 --> 02:23:31,559
So what they've done is I think
it was a German scholar he took and

1654
02:23:33,719 --> 02:23:39,200
Arabic is just a newer version of
Aramaic. So if you take the Arabic

1655
02:23:39,440 --> 02:23:43,280
back to Aramaic, which is just
taking off some slashes and dots and making

1656
02:23:43,360 --> 02:23:48,600
it into Aramaic again, it's just
about Jesus. Like everything it talks about

1657
02:23:48,840 --> 02:23:56,159
is about Jesus, and it's it's
pretty much the gospel just hidden basically.

1658
02:23:56,440 --> 02:23:58,680
So if you take those out put
it back into Aramaic, then it makes

1659
02:23:58,680 --> 02:24:03,360
total sense. Well you, when
you say hidden, do you mean corrupted

1660
02:24:03,600 --> 02:24:07,959
or like, what do you mean, because because I mean, the Koran

1661
02:24:07,000 --> 02:24:11,360
does not, because the Quran is
nonsense, bro, So what do you

1662
02:24:11,399 --> 02:24:13,639
mean? Yeah? Yeah, No, I just mean hidden in the sense

1663
02:24:13,680 --> 02:24:18,559
that it's they've overlaid things over it. Yes, I see what you mean

1664
02:24:18,600 --> 02:24:22,520
In fact, yeah, Sam Sam
Schmund had a really good video. He

1665
02:24:22,559 --> 02:24:26,639
pointed out one of our interviews years
ago where he showed that there's a section

1666
02:24:26,719 --> 02:24:30,639
of the Quran which is like a
jumbled up version of several verses from the

1667
02:24:30,639 --> 02:24:37,040
Gospel of John. It's just all
it's jumbled up, That's all I had.

1668
02:24:37,079 --> 02:24:39,639
I just wanted to know if you
had looked into that. And I

1669
02:24:39,639 --> 02:24:41,799
think it's very interesting. I need
to I just keep I keep forgetting to

1670
02:24:43,159 --> 02:24:46,079
go deeper into that kind of stuff
because I focused ended up focusing so heavenly,

1671
02:24:46,559 --> 02:24:52,840
heavenly heavily on you know, Trinity
versus uh, you know it,

1672
02:24:52,920 --> 02:24:56,200
taw heed, And I haven't gone
deep into a lot of these you know,

1673
02:24:56,760 --> 02:25:01,000
historical textual issues with Islam. But
but thank you for that. Yeah,

1674
02:25:01,000 --> 02:25:05,319
there's plenty of people way better than
me at that. Just for example.

1675
02:25:05,360 --> 02:25:07,600
The way this works is people might
think, well, how you how

1676
02:25:09,280 --> 02:25:11,159
do you not know this? But
you've done all these debates with Muslims.

1677
02:25:11,559 --> 02:25:16,879
Well, each Muslim there's as many
product the Muslim schools as there are basically

1678
02:25:16,920 --> 02:25:22,000
sacked anywhere else, and they all
have a million different views on what they

1679
02:25:22,079 --> 02:25:28,079
pretend is the clear, simple teaching
of God's oneness. Okay, well,

1680
02:25:28,079 --> 02:25:33,159
there's I guess zillion different schools on
what Allah's oneness even is, and so

1681
02:25:33,239 --> 02:25:35,799
hopefully people have begun to see.
Oh well, wait a minute. I

1682
02:25:35,799 --> 02:25:39,559
thought this religion was, like,
you know, so clearly simple for the

1683
02:25:39,600 --> 02:25:43,639
simple people, and everybody can see
the Allah is one. And then you've

1684
02:25:43,639 --> 02:25:46,319
got all these people fighting over it
what it means, you know, the

1685
02:25:46,600 --> 02:25:50,840
Shias, Like if you watch the
Jake Khalil debate, Kalil is just basically

1686
02:25:50,879 --> 02:25:54,719
restating a kind of neoplatonism. Jake
is like, nah, dude, you

1687
02:25:54,799 --> 02:25:58,239
know Allah has a foot, So
I mean, dude, they don't know

1688
02:25:58,319 --> 02:26:05,879
what it means. So m KG, what's up? Not MTG, MKG.

1689
02:26:07,719 --> 02:26:11,959
Hey another question here. I actually
it's actually tied to what I previously

1690
02:26:13,000 --> 02:26:18,959
asked. I wanted to know regarding
questions like these, how much can I

1691
02:26:18,040 --> 02:26:24,799
trust my my priest to give me
the correct answer or trust his answer when

1692
02:26:24,799 --> 02:26:33,360
it comes to things like this correct
answer on what anything regarding regarding the Trinity?

1693
02:26:33,520 --> 02:26:37,440
What does it mean? Or references
in the Old Testament, like whatever

1694
02:26:37,600 --> 02:26:43,159
my priest's explanation is for those things
like how much can I take that without

1695
02:26:43,239 --> 02:26:48,319
salt? I mean, I don't
I don't think. I think in every

1696
02:26:50,159 --> 02:26:56,559
communion you could conceivably have uneducated priests, uneducated pastors. I mean, so

1697
02:26:56,600 --> 02:27:01,280
this is this is probably a feature
of every union. I would say that

1698
02:27:01,799 --> 02:27:07,200
typically, on average, Orthodox priests
are probably better defenders of the Trinity than

1699
02:27:07,879 --> 02:27:11,120
say, the average Roman Catholic priest. I mean a Roman Catholic priest.

1700
02:27:11,760 --> 02:27:16,159
He might on off off hand know
a good bit about the Trinity or something

1701
02:27:16,200 --> 02:27:18,879
like that, but most of the
time a Roman Catholic priest, nobsorto priest

1702
02:27:18,920 --> 02:27:20,520
is going to be like, well, go read the the you know,

1703
02:27:20,639 --> 02:27:26,559
read Augustin on the Trinity, or
go read the Catechism. So I think

1704
02:27:26,559 --> 02:27:33,239
that on issues of trinity and incarnation, they're probably better than the average Roman

1705
02:27:33,280 --> 02:27:39,000
Catholic priest. But there are a
lot of cases where unfortunately, even Orthodox

1706
02:27:39,040 --> 02:27:46,680
priests are lacking in some theological training
and knowledge. Cool and also, when

1707
02:27:46,680 --> 02:27:52,159
you said to contact bo Brandson via
email, I was wondering if you would

1708
02:27:52,159 --> 02:27:56,879
happen to have him on one of
your next livestreams Q and AS, so

1709
02:27:58,680 --> 02:28:01,959
maybe it could happen there. Yes, so we're gonna do a debate review

1710
02:28:03,200 --> 02:28:09,840
of the Jake debate, so it'll
be me, Lewis, Kai and doctor

1711
02:28:09,879 --> 02:28:13,760
Branson and uh, that would be
a good time to raise Q and A

1712
02:28:13,840 --> 02:28:18,559
and stuff, but that'll probably be
in the next few weeks. We're just

1713
02:28:18,600 --> 02:28:20,319
waiting on Lewis and Kai to have
a time when they're free to do it,

1714
02:28:20,360 --> 02:28:24,600
but we'll eventually do it. It
took us a while to the Daniel

1715
02:28:24,159 --> 02:28:28,319
review. You know how, Kai
is very meticulous, so when he does

1716
02:28:28,360 --> 02:28:31,200
a debate review, he wants to
like, you know, he wants like

1717
02:28:31,239 --> 02:28:35,879
a fifty minute presentation, which I'm
totally cool with his His presentations are great,

1718
02:28:35,399 --> 02:28:37,680
so I'm sure that what he's doing
is just kind of working up a

1719
02:28:37,680 --> 02:28:41,040
big presentation and then you can ask
doctor Branson you know whatever at that time.

1720
02:28:41,280 --> 02:28:46,040
But he's also really good at emails, so he's he's usually answered every

1721
02:28:46,079 --> 02:28:48,120
email up sent. But let's see
who was next, Lucos, what's up,

1722
02:28:48,159 --> 02:29:00,680
Lucase we got high fructose corn sorup
and glucose in the house. I'm

1723
02:29:00,680 --> 02:29:05,760
good man, what's that with you? Hey? So I'm just learning about

1724
02:29:07,120 --> 02:29:13,520
the Orthodox view of like what grace
is, you know, divine energy and

1725
02:29:13,559 --> 02:29:20,280
speaking with Calvinists or Protestants, they
use this term, and you've probably heard

1726
02:29:20,280 --> 02:29:28,200
of it unmerited favor as they describe, right. So Protestants typically restrict grace,

1727
02:29:28,239 --> 02:29:31,600
so they only, I mean,
they typically mainly think of it as

1728
02:29:31,000 --> 02:29:35,559
dispositional in other words, God's disposition
towards you changing from angry to happy.

1729
02:29:37,360 --> 02:29:39,319
So that's what they're talking about when
they use that, because they think of

1730
02:29:39,319 --> 02:29:46,239
it as your judicial standing before God. Orthodox typically think of it more so

1731
02:29:46,360 --> 02:29:50,840
in the sense of the metaphysical thing
that you're participating in, which is the

1732
02:29:50,920 --> 02:29:54,840
actual divine life of God. So
I have a whole essay is Grace Created

1733
02:29:54,920 --> 02:29:58,079
or Uncreated? Here at my website
if you want to watch that. There's

1734
02:29:58,120 --> 02:30:03,040
also a dire clips versions of it. So if you want to deeper dive

1735
02:30:03,120 --> 02:30:11,000
into specifically where we're say, departing
from the Roman Catholic view, it's here.

1736
02:30:11,440 --> 02:30:16,840
And then I have an old old
essay that I wrote about contrasting our

1737
02:30:16,920 --> 02:30:22,840
view to the Calvinist view, because
in the Calvinist view, grace kind of

1738
02:30:22,920 --> 02:30:28,840
ultimately it is dispositional, but it's
dispositional because of the merits that Jesus does

1739
02:30:28,920 --> 02:30:31,639
to fulfill the covenant of works.
That's the Calvinist views in other words,

1740
02:30:33,159 --> 02:30:37,079
the Adam failed to do all the
good works. So Jesus, as the

1741
02:30:37,120 --> 02:30:39,959
second atom, has to come and
fulfill this quote covenant of works, which

1742
02:30:41,000 --> 02:30:46,520
then merits the perfect judicial standing,
which is then imputed to your bank account.

1743
02:30:46,600 --> 02:30:54,200
That's the classical Protestant Calvinist view.
So the problem with the merited works

1744
02:30:54,239 --> 02:30:58,799
and time that Jesus does to fill
the comant works is that it's still it's

1745
02:30:58,799 --> 02:31:01,440
still a created grace. So they're
in the exact same position as the official

1746
02:31:03,280 --> 02:31:09,639
Ludwig Gotte, Roman Cathoy position that
grace is a supernatural quote creature. In

1747
02:31:09,680 --> 02:31:13,040
other words, it's Arian. So
when Palamas debates with Barley, Yeah,

1748
02:31:13,319 --> 02:31:16,680
when Palamas debates Barley am about created
grace, he says, well, so

1749
02:31:16,799 --> 02:31:22,559
ultimately you're saved by another creature.
That's Arian. Okay. Yeah. Also,

1750
02:31:22,719 --> 02:31:28,440
I just wanted to I got to. I believe it's a instant verbum.

1751
02:31:28,680 --> 02:31:31,600
He had a really good clip of
yours. It's my favorite dire clip.

1752
02:31:33,959 --> 02:31:37,040
He he resurrected it, so to
speak, the other week. It's

1753
02:31:37,040 --> 02:31:41,840
called the General Resurrection of Man.
Oh yeah, you heard that. That

1754
02:31:43,719 --> 02:31:48,360
is so good. So anyways,
thanks Jake. Yeah, I think the

1755
02:31:48,399 --> 02:31:50,840
old essay that I'm thinking of.
I think it's this one. It's called

1756
02:31:54,000 --> 02:31:58,120
how Calvinism is an historian and Pallagian. I think this is the essay I'm

1757
02:31:58,120 --> 02:32:00,920
thinking of from like twenty ten.
So I'll put this in the chat for

1758
02:32:01,000 --> 02:32:05,440
you guys. Uh, that's one. And then yeah, I forgot about

1759
02:32:05,440 --> 02:32:13,280
that video that was on in Citium
Verbum from like six years ago. I'll

1760
02:32:13,280 --> 02:32:16,520
put that in the chat for you
guys too. Let's see General Resurrection.

1761
02:32:18,040 --> 02:32:22,319
I don't know how is a Kotel
gonna talk about the Moscow thing on YouTube?

1762
02:32:22,479 --> 02:32:26,840
That's crazy? I mean I'm not
saying it's crazy that that he's doing

1763
02:32:26,879 --> 02:32:30,600
it. I'm saying that, like
is he gonna get away? Like?

1764
02:32:30,680 --> 02:32:33,319
How was he gonna? How is
he gonna do that? Like I just

1765
02:32:33,399 --> 02:32:37,680
assumed that, like there ain't no
way you can talk about that on YouTube.

1766
02:32:37,440 --> 02:32:41,799
Let me see, I just saw
that video the other day. Pop

1767
02:32:41,879 --> 02:32:46,120
up, Uh, where's it at? How was at it? Right there?

1768
02:32:46,479 --> 02:32:52,120
Yeah? Here it is? So
here's the video that he's referring to,

1769
02:32:52,680 --> 02:32:54,840
which I do think is now that
I think back to which video this

1770
02:32:54,920 --> 02:33:00,200
is, I think this is pretty
good for like Protestant Calvinists mindset. There

1771
02:33:01,040 --> 02:33:03,200
all right, we got a few
more we'll do. I might try to

1772
02:33:03,200 --> 02:33:07,959
do another stream to I'm in straight
up like machine mode, dude, like

1773
02:33:07,000 --> 02:33:13,840
I'm ready to live stream the crap
out of myself in the next few weeks.

1774
02:33:13,000 --> 02:33:18,200
I mean, I'm just I don't
know, something has something crawled up

1775
02:33:18,239 --> 02:33:22,680
in me and you got me all
whacked out. Brouh, sleigh bubbles,

1776
02:33:22,719 --> 02:33:30,159
what's up, sleigh bubbles? Jamie? Could you make me a double shot?

1777
02:33:31,840 --> 02:33:37,520
Thank you? What's up? Slate
queen? Hello? Jed Dower,

1778
02:33:37,879 --> 02:33:41,000
I'm on my girlfriends account. God
bless you. I want to just thank

1779
02:33:41,040 --> 02:33:46,520
you for everything you do. I
have a question about counting my division and

1780
02:33:46,840 --> 02:33:52,719
both Branson's unity of action. I
mean, is it the same answer to

1781
02:33:52,760 --> 02:33:56,799
the quote unquote problem or is it
two different and two different answers to the

1782
02:33:56,840 --> 02:34:00,000
same problem. How does it compare
or I mean, how are they similar

1783
02:34:00,280 --> 02:34:05,280
arguments? That's made? Is that
following William Lane Craig and another guy.

1784
02:34:05,840 --> 02:34:13,760
I read doctor Branson's response essay like
a month ago, so I forget all

1785
02:34:13,799 --> 02:34:16,920
the details in that. But unity
of action has to do with whether or

1786
02:34:16,959 --> 02:34:24,079
not there's one will and operation in
the trinity versus each of the persons having

1787
02:34:24,079 --> 02:34:30,200
their own will and action. And
so the William Lane Craig Apollinarian conclusions,

1788
02:34:30,520 --> 02:34:33,760
if I recall, lead him to
thinking that there's like three wills in God

1789
02:34:33,840 --> 02:34:37,920
or something like that. I may
not be remembering the details. But that's

1790
02:34:37,959 --> 02:34:41,079
different from how we count. And
I have a I did a whole video

1791
02:34:41,200 --> 02:34:46,600
on my backup channel if you want
to see that, where I basically just

1792
02:34:46,680 --> 02:34:52,079
walk through two different ways of counting. They're not exclusive. Different things are

1793
02:34:52,120 --> 02:34:56,000
counted in different ways. So in
the ancient world, they typically counted by

1794
02:34:56,000 --> 02:35:01,120
division. This is why the Nicene
Creed talks about God is or the liturgy

1795
02:35:01,120 --> 02:35:07,040
speaks of God is undivided. That
means counting by division. Algazali and his

1796
02:35:07,600 --> 02:35:13,360
belief in moderation section eight or so, he counts by division eight or ten.

1797
02:35:13,360 --> 02:35:18,479
Aristotle in the categories six counts by
division. It's well known. It's

1798
02:35:18,479 --> 02:35:24,120
not even a contentious issue. So
the point though, is that different things

1799
02:35:24,120 --> 02:35:26,680
are picked out and counted in different
ways. That's so if you want a

1800
02:35:26,719 --> 02:35:33,040
fuller explanation of that, it's on
my backup channel, just called counting by

1801
02:35:33,079 --> 02:35:37,639
division. Okay, thank you for
that. I just have another question.

1802
02:35:37,680 --> 02:35:41,319
Basically, so with that being said, counting by division. I've heard Luigi

1803
02:35:41,360 --> 02:35:43,799
ask you the same question, but
I just want to make sure that I'm

1804
02:35:45,040 --> 02:35:48,280
you know, positive on this,
So it would be basically just denying the

1805
02:35:48,280 --> 02:35:52,040
false economy of is of identity and
is a predication? Correct, It's related

1806
02:35:52,079 --> 02:35:56,280
to that, but it's just pointing
out that not everything is counted in the

1807
02:35:56,319 --> 02:36:01,360
same way. So like when we
count ahead. No, okay, no,

1808
02:36:01,399 --> 02:36:05,559
because you know that's how you know, you know Muslims last is Jesus

1809
02:36:05,600 --> 02:36:07,840
God by predication of by identity.
But with you, what you're saying is

1810
02:36:07,879 --> 02:36:13,040
just basically like rejecting that, saying
we come by division. Well that this

1811
02:36:13,120 --> 02:36:16,079
is more so related to the trinity
or what's called the logical problem of the

1812
02:36:16,079 --> 02:36:22,040
trinity. So this is it's not
really uh uh, I mean, it's

1813
02:36:22,079 --> 02:36:26,079
related to christology. But hold on
second, I'm trying to find this video,

1814
02:36:26,280 --> 02:36:39,760
so let me find it, man, this freaking search never maybe Kyle

1815
02:36:39,840 --> 02:36:46,799
put it up now, I can't
remember. I can't remember where I put

1816
02:36:46,840 --> 02:36:52,040
it. Anyway, it's this live
stream talk here. You just have to

1817
02:36:52,120 --> 02:36:58,719
find it with their causes. Three
hour live stream from Debating Lunatics on TikTok

1818
02:37:01,159 --> 02:37:05,600
let's see jub he timestamped it.
So let me see where that time stamp

1819
02:37:05,719 --> 02:37:09,319
is here. It is. So
if you got to one forty four,

1820
02:37:11,840 --> 02:37:16,159
if you got a one forty four
in this talk right here, it's called

1821
02:37:16,040 --> 02:37:20,440
insane. TikTok debates atheists, calvinists
and cults. If you got to one

1822
02:37:20,520 --> 02:37:26,959
forty four, I walk through the
two different senses of how we count.

1823
02:37:26,760 --> 02:37:30,600
Okay, thank you so much man, good questions. Thank you God,

1824
02:37:30,639 --> 02:37:50,600
bless you too. Richard Hayes.
By the way, look look for Tristan

1825
02:37:50,600 --> 02:37:54,959
and I to do a deep dive
on dune and dune too. That's gonna

1826
02:37:54,959 --> 02:37:56,680
be fun. In the next few
days over on his channel, or I

1827
02:37:56,680 --> 02:38:03,639
think tomorrow, so beautiful, tri
Stauna and I will be discussing Paul muadib

1828
02:38:03,799 --> 02:38:11,879
ussol A Tredees and his uh Nestorian
assent to being the hand of God,

1829
02:38:15,200 --> 02:38:20,879
the voice from the older world.
So anyway, gotta I'm mute, man,

1830
02:38:26,040 --> 02:38:28,399
I mean, you ain't gotta on
mute. You don't you can just

1831
02:38:28,760 --> 02:38:31,840
not on mute. Whatever. So
we got it some. We got several

1832
02:38:31,879 --> 02:38:35,079
super chats I need to read.
We got a couple more questions coming up.

1833
02:38:35,280 --> 02:38:37,559
But before we do that. I
want to remind you guys that we

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02:38:37,559 --> 02:38:43,239
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1855
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No, that's not actually Vivec for
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1856
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1862
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Well, if you head over to
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1863
02:41:01,079 --> 02:41:05,239
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1864
02:41:05,319 --> 02:41:07,760
you pay half of that with the
promo co J fifty. That's JA

1865
02:41:07,840 --> 02:41:13,719
WiFi zero to get fifty off.
And we got got a couple of people

1866
02:41:15,079 --> 02:41:18,440
left in the queue. I'll go
to those JA. I missed you,

1867
02:41:18,520 --> 02:41:22,920
sure, yeah, I sent a
super chat a while ago, but I

1868
02:41:24,000 --> 02:41:26,120
missed it. Had to go pick
up my son from school. I was

1869
02:41:26,159 --> 02:41:28,479
saying. I was new to Orthodoxy. I was trying to figure out,

1870
02:41:28,559 --> 02:41:33,879
like what's the best translation in the
Bible to use? And the context was

1871
02:41:33,959 --> 02:41:39,360
kind of like oh, I thought
like the King James was like the best

1872
02:41:39,479 --> 02:41:46,360
baseless eptuogen. Now what you want
is the trying to modify it. Nah,

1873
02:41:46,479 --> 02:41:50,559
dude, what you want? No, no, no, you want

1874
02:41:50,760 --> 02:41:54,239
the women's rights gender neutral study Bible. That's the best study Bible that's out

1875
02:41:54,280 --> 02:42:00,159
there right now? What's that?
I'm just joking, man, I think

1876
02:42:00,200 --> 02:42:05,680
there is a gender neutral study Bible
which somebody put out, like I think

1877
02:42:05,719 --> 02:42:09,520
it was like one of these cucked
Nordic countries put out a gender neutral study

1878
02:42:09,559 --> 02:42:15,920
Bible. I'm just kidding, man. The Orthodox Study Bible is my favorite.

1879
02:42:16,159 --> 02:42:20,479
Okay, so the obs basically or
osb got it? Oh there is

1880
02:42:22,040 --> 02:42:26,879
so you actually there's a whole you
can actually choose a whole plethora of gender

1881
02:42:26,959 --> 02:42:33,440
neutral translations of the Bible. This
is so insane anyway. Yeah, Orthodox

1882
02:42:33,440 --> 02:42:37,600
Study Bible is my recommendation. I've
used it for many years. A lot

1883
02:42:37,639 --> 02:42:43,000
of really good notes. They're not
perfect notes. Sometimes it's a little weak

1884
02:42:43,040 --> 02:42:45,479
and airs the Old Testament, which
I wish they could have done more on.

1885
02:42:46,200 --> 02:42:48,559
And every now and then I think
they make a few theological missteps in

1886
02:42:48,600 --> 02:42:52,239
the notes. But I'd say ninety
five percent of the notes are really good

1887
02:42:52,559 --> 02:42:56,719
in the Orthodox Study Bible. Let's
say, let's go to Who's up next?

1888
02:42:56,840 --> 02:43:00,360
Rinzo? What's a rinzo? Sounds
like a sounds like some kind of

1889
02:43:00,399 --> 02:43:03,760
a gangster movie name, like the
you're the underling to one of the gangsters.

1890
02:43:07,479 --> 02:43:11,920
All right, so ja I have
a question. So basically, I'm

1891
02:43:11,920 --> 02:43:20,840
a I'm inquiring about Orthodox and I
was wondering, so, what's the main

1892
02:43:20,920 --> 02:43:24,760
difference in the Trinity? Like I'm
using the Christology stuff. So like along

1893
02:43:24,799 --> 02:43:28,959
the lines of like the economy I
heard you talk about before, like is

1894
02:43:30,040 --> 02:43:37,319
the orgines with the Father or both
the Father? And the Orthodox holds strictly

1895
02:43:37,319 --> 02:43:43,079
to the Father is the sole origin
and cause. Roman Catholics believe through via

1896
02:43:43,959 --> 02:43:50,000
Lions and Florence that the Son also
is a co source with the Father together

1897
02:43:50,079 --> 02:43:56,760
as a single source of the hypostatic
personal origin of the spirit. So we

1898
02:43:56,760 --> 02:44:03,719
do not believe that that's the key
philioqui. Friends. And by the way,

1899
02:44:03,719 --> 02:44:05,239
we have we have several you know, debate reviews. You can go

1900
02:44:05,280 --> 02:44:09,920
watch the debate reviews of of our
filioquay debates. We have a three hour

1901
02:44:09,000 --> 02:44:15,600
talk on the Edward Sashenski book about
the Philly Okay, So okay, what

1902
02:44:15,600 --> 02:44:22,040
would do some beginner books as well? If you're asking about the Philly oquay

1903
02:44:22,040 --> 02:44:24,680
issue, I would say read the
Sashinsky book. But if you're asking about

1904
02:44:24,719 --> 02:44:28,479
Orthodoxy in general, I think probably
my endorsed book The Orthodox Church is a

1905
02:44:28,479 --> 02:44:35,000
good introduction. Yeah. Man,
great questions. Glad to hear that you're

1906
02:44:35,000 --> 02:44:41,799
inquiring now, Harry, I'm not
remember we're on YouTube, so let's keep

1907
02:44:41,000 --> 02:44:48,799
our questions. Mister Ludwig YouTube appropriate
so that we don't get boosted blasted off

1908
02:44:48,799 --> 02:45:05,159
of YouTube got immune. Yes,
sir, looking forward to volume three and

1909
02:45:05,399 --> 02:45:22,840
you're previously mentioned book on the on
the books anyways, Anyways, I was

1910
02:45:22,879 --> 02:45:28,239
wondering what you if you've read rush
Dunis The One and the Many, and

1911
02:45:28,360 --> 02:45:31,520
what's your take on that? I
have? Yeah, in fact, I've

1912
02:45:31,559 --> 02:45:37,200
recommended it for many years. Obviously
I disagree with the russ Unis Like theology,

1913
02:45:37,280 --> 02:45:41,600
but I thought that his One the
Many books a great application of the

1914
02:45:41,680 --> 02:45:46,920
problem to the history of social order. So basically, for those that don't

1915
02:45:46,959 --> 02:45:50,799
know, Russiani takes the issue of
the One of the Mini and says we

1916
02:45:50,840 --> 02:45:56,760
can actually see in the history of
cultures and civilizations the manifestation of the problem

1917
02:45:56,799 --> 02:46:00,280
that won the Mini in terms of
how societies are organized. So yeah,

1918
02:46:00,280 --> 02:46:03,399
I read it back in the two
thousands and I've always thought it was a

1919
02:46:03,399 --> 02:46:11,319
pretty good book. So you think
he deals with he elevates the Trinity as

1920
02:46:11,360 --> 02:46:22,040
a crucial anyway, Yeah, I
would agree with that. Have you read

1921
02:46:22,079 --> 02:46:30,440
any fors Yes, I read Shadow
of Christ and Law of Moses. Okay,

1922
02:46:30,639 --> 02:46:37,559
let me think he has another I
read another book from Poethrus, uh

1923
02:46:37,719 --> 02:46:39,879
something about sacraments back in the day, but I don't, I mean that

1924
02:46:39,959 --> 02:46:46,399
was a long time ago. Okay, Well take care and say hi to

1925
02:46:46,479 --> 02:46:52,840
Jimi. Yeah and yeah, I
thought, actually there was some good typological

1926
02:46:54,760 --> 02:46:58,920
argumentation in Poethrus's Shadow Christ and the
Law Moses. So even though he's calv

1927
02:47:00,200 --> 02:47:03,719
I would disagree with the Covinist theology. That's a pretty good book on typology.

1928
02:47:05,040 --> 02:47:28,799
So let's see Dan Boordorf. What's
up, Dan? Are you there?

1929
02:47:30,559 --> 02:47:33,280
BMX nineteen sixty six ten bucks?
Thank you so much, BMX appreciate

1930
02:47:33,319 --> 02:47:35,600
that. Guys, if you want
to support the show via stream Labs super

1931
02:47:35,680 --> 02:47:37,719
chat, you can, so if
you want to send me a superchat,

1932
02:47:37,840 --> 02:47:43,319
use stream labs right there the super
chat link. Hopefully everybody saw once again

1933
02:47:45,920 --> 02:47:50,959
the points that were made today via
critiquing Trent. This was really what the

1934
02:47:52,000 --> 02:47:54,520
debate with Trent ultimately was about.
If you remember when Trent I debated natural

1935
02:47:54,559 --> 02:48:01,319
theology. Unfortunately, today Trent sort
of restated all the same mistakes from two

1936
02:48:01,399 --> 02:48:05,760
years ago. So that's what kind
of got me fired up ready to live

1937
02:48:05,760 --> 02:48:13,520
stream today. So hopefully you understood
and grasped all that anti Pacman three dollars,

1938
02:48:13,079 --> 02:48:18,360
Are you unequivocally, absolutely beyond a
shadow of a doubt ten thousand percent

1939
02:48:18,399 --> 02:48:22,959
sure that you're not mean? No? In fact, I tricked you all

1940
02:48:22,000 --> 02:48:24,639
by telling you that twenty twenty four
would be the year of love. You

1941
02:48:24,680 --> 02:48:30,799
all believed it, and then I
showed up with my Cobra Commander shirt as

1942
02:48:30,799 --> 02:48:35,159
you see here today. So you
are a fool Cobra. There you go.

1943
02:48:35,760 --> 02:48:41,000
You bought into Cobra Commander's sy ops
hook line and sinker shaw on two

1944
02:48:41,079 --> 02:48:48,360
dollars? Can Constantinople be permanently excommunicated? Sure? Any of the seas could

1945
02:48:48,440 --> 02:48:54,520
be. Canon twenty eight of Calcedon
makes New Rome next to the privileges of

1946
02:48:54,559 --> 02:49:01,120
Old Rome. Does that have to
be linked to Constantinople thinking about the possible

1947
02:49:01,159 --> 02:49:03,440
reunion of twenty twenty five? Well, look, if we believe Old Rome

1948
02:49:03,520 --> 02:49:11,559
can be severed and lose its candlestick, then certainly New Rome can so absolutely

1949
02:49:13,040 --> 02:49:16,639
sean two dollars. YouTube notified me
that Jim Bob is live, but it

1950
02:49:16,680 --> 02:49:18,959
doesn't notify me about you even when
I turn the notifications on. Yeah,

1951
02:49:18,959 --> 02:49:24,239
who knows? You never you never
predict this stuff. But remember everybody that

1952
02:49:24,239 --> 02:49:28,040
you also do have to turn on
notifications, so sometimes maybe that gets turned

1953
02:49:28,079 --> 02:49:31,200
off. I don't know exactly.
Maybe in your phone you turn off notifications

1954
02:49:31,280 --> 02:49:33,600
under apps or something. I'm not
saying you did that. I'm just saying

1955
02:49:33,600 --> 02:49:39,879
that sometimes that can happen. You
don't even have the live symbol. I

1956
02:49:39,920 --> 02:49:43,360
don't know about that. I mean, that's I think it. I think

1957
02:49:43,360 --> 02:49:46,600
it says I'm live on YouTube.
But yeah, who knows, could be

1958
02:49:46,719 --> 02:49:52,559
could be any of that. I
think I noticed that engagements on Twitter seem

1959
02:49:52,559 --> 02:49:58,360
to have gone down in the last
month, So that's odd. Marine cus

1960
02:49:58,399 --> 02:50:03,639
Man five dollars. I'm picking out
a different reference versus what's the way picking

1961
02:50:03,639 --> 02:50:07,799
out a different reference versus, for
example, just being wrong. For example,

1962
02:50:07,840 --> 02:50:11,360
if I point out Jay Dyer and
say that you don't have a human

1963
02:50:11,399 --> 02:50:15,680
will, I'm real, I'm wrong, but I'm still talking about Jay Dire.

1964
02:50:16,600 --> 02:50:24,200
That's true. But the problem is
that in terms of knowing conceptually about

1965
02:50:24,239 --> 02:50:28,479
God versus worshiping it and having adoration
with God. That's why I use my

1966
02:50:28,600 --> 02:50:37,280
analogy of having a relationship and adoration. Right. So remember, if if

1967
02:50:37,360 --> 02:50:45,719
Nosratat had restricted it to Muslims have
a knowledge of the person of God via

1968
02:50:46,000 --> 02:50:48,360
Abraham or something like. Maybe they
could skate around that. But the problem

1969
02:50:48,440 --> 02:50:52,719
is that they say that they adore
the One True God and have the faith

1970
02:50:52,719 --> 02:50:56,799
of Abraham. No they don't.
You see, that's the problem there.

1971
02:50:56,760 --> 02:51:01,879
So are they talking about a different
Jesus or what? But yeah, that's

1972
02:51:01,879 --> 02:51:07,159
my point right. So again,
if I if I mean, if I

1973
02:51:07,239 --> 02:51:13,879
say Jesus, I believe like Joe's
witnesses, they quote believe in Jesus,

1974
02:51:13,079 --> 02:51:18,959
Mormons believe in Jesus, I believe
in Jesus. Do me a Joe's witness

1975
02:51:18,959 --> 02:51:24,319
and a Mormon. Therefore all have
the same reference kinda because even though they

1976
02:51:24,399 --> 02:51:31,360
might intend quote Jesus, it's totally
wrong and so the reference doesn't achieve the

1977
02:51:31,440 --> 02:51:39,239
worship and adoration as Vatican two says. You see, so knowing it's equivocating

1978
02:51:39,239 --> 02:51:41,239
on the word, knowing it's what
I'm trying to say. Oh, I

1979
02:51:41,280 --> 02:51:43,959
forget to talk about Acts seventeen.
This is a great example of this.

1980
02:51:43,079 --> 02:51:52,840
So let's go to Act seventeen where
where Trent he brought this up today,

1981
02:51:52,840 --> 02:51:58,120
Act seventeen. So let's look at
this because again we're going to see that

1982
02:51:58,159 --> 02:52:01,840
Act seventeen doesn't say what Trent wanted
to say. It's the exact opposite of

1983
02:52:01,840 --> 02:52:05,639
it. And this is relevant because
here's where and Dan I apologize. We'll

1984
02:52:05,600 --> 02:52:09,399
go to you in a second.
This is where the apologetic of Saint Paul

1985
02:52:09,520 --> 02:52:18,520
confronts the uh, the Greek philosophers. So Paul walks into Athens to the

1986
02:52:18,559 --> 02:52:22,360
marketplace, and he says that there
were certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, and

1987
02:52:22,639 --> 02:52:26,440
he reasoned with the Jews and the
gentiles, the worshipers and the synagogue.

1988
02:52:26,559 --> 02:52:30,319
By the way, that means he's
debating, So debating is not wrong.

1989
02:52:31,319 --> 02:52:35,239
The Stoic philosophers and Epicurean said,
what is this babbler talking about? Everyone

1990
02:52:35,000 --> 02:52:41,280
made the official Hamburg of March madness
of the What the heck? Another?

1991
02:52:41,360 --> 02:52:45,680
No, oh, that's a stupid
ad on the Bible Gateway page, Like,

1992
02:52:45,760 --> 02:52:48,959
what the heck is black people talking
about food? In my mind,

1993
02:52:48,079 --> 02:52:52,920
I'm I going crazy. They got
altars talking to me. Uh. They

1994
02:52:52,920 --> 02:52:56,040
brought him to the areopagus. What
is this doctrine? So we'll skip down

1995
02:52:56,079 --> 02:53:01,479
here to where Paul addresses the areopagus, and Paul says, I was passing

1996
02:53:01,520 --> 02:53:05,319
through your objects of worship and I
noticed that you had a bunch of statues

1997
02:53:05,360 --> 02:53:09,239
and all kinds of things, and
I even found an altar that says to

1998
02:53:09,399 --> 02:53:13,120
the unknown God. Now, in
my mind, this example is a perfect

1999
02:53:13,159 --> 02:53:18,079
example of the point that I've been
making my position. Okay, Trent,

2000
02:53:18,159 --> 02:53:22,280
I don't know why he thought this
proved his position. But therefore the one

2001
02:53:22,319 --> 02:53:28,840
God who you worship without knowing?
Okay. So notice that there's two senses

2002
02:53:28,879 --> 02:53:35,399
of knowing here and worship here does
not mean that the worship is accepted.

2003
02:53:35,840 --> 02:53:39,639
And the problem with the Vatican two
passage is the wording makes it sound as

2004
02:53:39,680 --> 02:53:45,680
if it is accepted. Muslims worship
the one God. You say, because

2005
02:53:45,680 --> 02:53:50,360
of what? Because of quote the
faith of Abraham. But it's not the

2006
02:53:50,360 --> 02:53:54,120
faith of Abraham, because the faith
of Abraham is not based on genetic dissent,

2007
02:53:54,200 --> 02:54:00,239
as Paul says. It's based on
belief in the Messiah, which either

2008
02:54:00,319 --> 02:54:07,239
Jews nor Muslims have. So the
entire letter of the Galatians refutes this idea

2009
02:54:07,440 --> 02:54:11,920
that there's some faith of Abraham separate
from the faith of Christ. No,

2010
02:54:13,040 --> 02:54:16,840
there's not, and you can't have
one without the other. Okay, So

2011
02:54:16,920 --> 02:54:24,920
let's go back to back seventeen.
That's the one that I proclaim to you.

2012
02:54:26,079 --> 02:54:30,319
Now, if they already knew God, then Paul doesn't need to What

2013
02:54:30,920 --> 02:54:35,520
message does he need to bring if
they already know God in a potentially saving

2014
02:54:35,600 --> 02:54:41,559
relationship via their altar which actually reads
unknown God. Okay, what does this

2015
02:54:41,600 --> 02:54:46,959
say? Right here, unknown God? We are worshiping what we don't know,

2016
02:54:48,040 --> 02:54:54,200
So that means that they're not really
worshiping the living God. Otherwise,

2017
02:54:54,799 --> 02:54:58,000
why does Paul need to bring a
message to them if they're already worshiping God.

2018
02:54:58,239 --> 02:55:01,040
This is the tread's whole point is
under cut by the point of the

2019
02:55:01,079 --> 02:55:07,000
passage. Paul is preaching to people
who don't know God in a saving way.

2020
02:55:07,920 --> 02:55:11,319
And you say, well, then
what's the problem with the Muslim text?

2021
02:55:11,399 --> 02:55:15,120
Because this gives the impression that it
is a saving way. They adore

2022
02:55:15,159 --> 02:55:18,840
the one God, they have the
faith of Abraham and submit to Abraham,

2023
02:55:20,000 --> 02:55:24,520
submit to God like Abraham. No, they don't. That's the point.

2024
02:55:28,280 --> 02:55:33,079
And the whole move of Trent and
company to get to what Nostra tatday Avadicandu

2025
02:55:33,159 --> 02:55:39,799
says right here in this text is
natural theology. Misinterpreting passages like this,

2026
02:55:43,600 --> 02:55:46,040
God who made the world and everything
in it. Since he's lord of heaven

2027
02:55:46,120 --> 02:55:48,760
earth, does not dwell in temple's
made with hands, nor is he worshiped

2028
02:55:48,799 --> 02:55:52,840
with man's hands. Oh so,
wait a minute, so he's not actually

2029
02:55:52,879 --> 02:55:56,760
worshiped according to the ignorant worship of
these people. Do you see this?

2030
02:55:56,399 --> 02:56:01,280
So there's two different senses of knowing
and worshiping. This first sense that you

2031
02:56:01,319 --> 02:56:07,319
worship without knowing. Paul is rhetorically
saying you don't actually worship him, and

2032
02:56:07,360 --> 02:56:13,920
he doesn't accept this worship. He's
not worshiped with men's hands. Yet you

2033
02:56:13,479 --> 02:56:18,479
pagans who quote worship him unknowingly do
worship him with men's hands, and that

2034
02:56:18,600 --> 02:56:24,079
is not true worship. He has
made from one, since he gives life

2035
02:56:24,120 --> 02:56:26,840
to everything. He's the creator.
He's not a creature. He has made

2036
02:56:26,879 --> 02:56:31,399
from one, every blood, every
nation, every blood, every tribe to

2037
02:56:31,479 --> 02:56:35,079
dwell and face the earth. He
has predetermined their appointed times and boundaries and

2038
02:56:35,159 --> 02:56:39,440
dwellings, so that they should seek
him in the hope that they might find

2039
02:56:39,520 --> 02:56:41,920
him. Though he's not far from
each one of us, for in him

2040
02:56:41,959 --> 02:56:45,799
we live and move and have our
being. For we, as some of

2041
02:56:45,840 --> 02:56:48,680
your poets have said, are also
his offspring. So Paul is saying that

2042
02:56:48,959 --> 02:56:54,760
there is a kind of primordial you
could say, quote monotheism there. But

2043
02:56:56,239 --> 02:57:01,959
the primordial monotheism is first of all
obtained through idolatry. That's his point there.

2044
02:57:01,959 --> 02:57:09,120
And all the nations became idolatrous,
you see. So the idolatrous errors

2045
02:57:09,120 --> 02:57:15,879
and heresies are deviations that prevent the
true relationship with God. And if you

2046
02:57:15,920 --> 02:57:22,760
read John Damascus's heresiology, this is
why he calls idolatry a heresy. He

2047
02:57:22,760 --> 02:57:26,600
says, the original heresy is Genesis. The fall is the original heresy.

2048
02:57:26,600 --> 02:57:28,959
Well wait a minute, how could
that be a heresy? Because it was

2049
02:57:28,959 --> 02:57:33,280
a fall away from the Trinity in
the Garden of Eden. That's why John

2050
02:57:33,319 --> 02:57:41,600
Damascus can class every error, whether
idolatry, heathenism, atheism, as heresies

2051
02:57:41,920 --> 02:57:48,959
and deviations from the original Trinitarian worship
in the garden. How different is that

2052
02:57:50,040 --> 02:57:58,319
from everything that Trent says. So
this passage has nothing to do with Trent's

2053
02:57:58,440 --> 02:58:01,840
natural theology. Paul is actually saying
that you're a bunch of idolators and you've

2054
02:58:01,840 --> 02:58:05,239
made the divine nature into something that's
not. And then he says, uh,

2055
02:58:05,239 --> 02:58:09,280
oh, you were what ignorant.
Now wait a minute. If they're

2056
02:58:09,319 --> 02:58:18,959
ignorant, then how were they worshiping
the ones run? So again, this

2057
02:58:18,159 --> 02:58:24,360
I think really demolishes the opposite reading
that Trent tried to give it in his

2058
02:58:24,760 --> 02:58:31,159
citations today on Twitter. Uh,
Dan, did you want to say?

2059
02:58:33,399 --> 02:58:43,360
Dan? Are you still there?
It says you're here, but I can't

2060
02:58:43,399 --> 02:58:46,600
hear you. Did you turn your
mic on? Are you there? So?

2061
02:58:46,719 --> 02:58:48,399
Dan, if you want to come
out, come back in, go

2062
02:58:48,440 --> 02:58:50,440
to try to maybe turn your mic
on or something. We don't hear you.

2063
02:58:52,120 --> 02:58:58,200
Let's see Dion, what's up?
Don deon? The Bible guy?

2064
02:58:58,719 --> 02:59:05,639
You got to unmute? Oh yes, sir. Yeah. So I'm reformed.

2065
02:59:05,280 --> 02:59:09,319
But I've been listening to you for
a while, watching a lot of

2066
02:59:09,319 --> 02:59:13,280
your videos, and I think you
make a lot of good points when it

2067
02:59:13,319 --> 02:59:18,079
comes to, for example, the
Trinity and like penal substitutionary atonement. And

2068
02:59:18,159 --> 02:59:22,959
so I've been calling a lot of
you know, pastors and reform guys,

2069
02:59:24,239 --> 02:59:28,120
popular people, uh, trying to
like, you know, harmonize this all

2070
02:59:28,159 --> 02:59:33,319
out. So I guess I'm just
curious, what would how would how do

2071
02:59:33,360 --> 02:59:37,959
you understand Isaiah fifty three ten where
it says it please the Lord to crush

2072
02:59:37,000 --> 02:59:41,239
him, to crush the sun,
because that seems to be a general verse

2073
02:59:41,319 --> 02:59:45,479
that Reform guys go to. Yeah, so I'm just curious how what you

2074
02:59:45,479 --> 02:59:48,719
sarre about that. And to be
clear, in Orthodox theology, we do

2075
02:59:48,840 --> 02:59:56,120
accept there is an element of penal
uh punishment or in a sense also substitution,

2076
02:59:56,639 --> 03:00:01,000
but we have to be very precise
because it's not penal substitution as a

2077
03:00:01,040 --> 03:00:07,280
classic Reformation teaching teaches it. So
is there any representation substitution element? Yes?

2078
03:00:07,600 --> 03:00:11,760
Is there any quote punishment element?
Yes? And so let me show

2079
03:00:11,799 --> 03:00:16,680
you what the classic Orthodox teaching is. If you go to On the Orthodox

2080
03:00:16,760 --> 03:00:24,040
Faith by John Damascus, Book three, let me pull it up for you,

2081
03:00:26,840 --> 03:00:35,200
and if you read the last it's
like five the last five paragraphs book

2082
03:00:35,280 --> 03:00:41,399
three. So if we scroll down
here to what happened when Christ died,

2083
03:00:41,799 --> 03:00:46,200
you'll see that John Damascus gives the
perfect explication of our view. I also

2084
03:00:46,360 --> 03:00:52,760
have on my rock fin I did
a two hour live talk at an Antiochian

2085
03:00:52,879 --> 03:01:01,600
Orthodox event about christ Descent into Hades, where I also cover this this issue.

2086
03:01:01,920 --> 03:01:07,639
You have to search on my rocktion
for Descent into Hades Comma Jay Dyer

2087
03:01:07,680 --> 03:01:13,159
and it'll come up. But if
we scroll down here to his prayer,

2088
03:01:13,959 --> 03:01:16,319
this is the appropriation. So the
first part is chapter twenty five. This

2089
03:01:16,360 --> 03:01:20,719
word John Damascus really starts to answer
the reformed questions, and here he says

2090
03:01:20,760 --> 03:01:26,120
that, first of all, God
the son was perfect, so he can't

2091
03:01:26,280 --> 03:01:31,000
literally become a curse. But he
says that he became as if one cursed,

2092
03:01:31,360 --> 03:01:35,840
right, and so there's no literal
sense in which the father is damning

2093
03:01:35,920 --> 03:01:41,600
or rejecting the son. He's cursed
from the appearance of humans. From human

2094
03:01:41,639 --> 03:01:43,760
Banag's point, it appears, okay, this man over here, he's being

2095
03:01:45,040 --> 03:01:50,319
crucified. That's a cursed dude.
He's not literally cursed. But what does

2096
03:01:50,319 --> 03:01:54,079
it mean then that he's in a
sense quote punished or takes on the quote

2097
03:01:54,079 --> 03:02:00,879
punishment. Punishment is the death that
he endured, meaning the severance of his

2098
03:02:01,000 --> 03:02:05,760
human soul from his human body.
There's no punishment that is from the advantage

2099
03:02:05,760 --> 03:02:09,760
point of the father to punish the
son in some judicial way, because the

2100
03:02:09,799 --> 03:02:15,440
son always loves the father and can
never and the father always loves the son.

2101
03:02:15,559 --> 03:02:20,079
There can never be a division between
the two hypostases. I mean,

2102
03:02:20,159 --> 03:02:22,319
just think about how silly this would
be in terms of eternal generation. So

2103
03:02:22,440 --> 03:02:26,120
does he stop generating the son when
he suddenly doesn't love the son anymore when

2104
03:02:26,120 --> 03:02:30,159
he gets mad? It doesn't work
that way. So what does it mean

2105
03:02:30,600 --> 03:02:35,639
that there's some sort of acceptance of
forsakenness and so forth? The twenty second

2106
03:02:35,680 --> 03:02:39,079
Psalm, it's explained by JOHNA.
Damascus very perfectly that the Word of God,

2107
03:02:39,440 --> 03:02:46,680
the Son willfully accepts the death in
his flesh. And the death is

2108
03:02:46,719 --> 03:02:50,719
not spiritual death, it's the severance
of the human soul from the human body.

2109
03:02:52,000 --> 03:02:54,799
And so John Damascus will explain that
this is precisely by the way why

2110
03:02:54,840 --> 03:03:00,000
he descends into hades, because he's
the second person to the human soul.

2111
03:03:00,120 --> 03:03:03,000
He's the divine person of the Word, who is the person to the human

2112
03:03:03,000 --> 03:03:07,120
soul that descends in the eighties,
Yeah, no, that's actually kind of

2113
03:03:07,159 --> 03:03:11,639
where I've been. That's kind of
where my understanding is gone. Is it's

2114
03:03:11,719 --> 03:03:16,280
not some type of direct like it's
not like the Father is having like this,

2115
03:03:16,559 --> 03:03:20,559
oh like angry at the Jesus right
in heaven. But it's I'm just

2116
03:03:20,680 --> 03:03:24,719
understanding it that the Father is allowing
the son to be crushed. So it's

2117
03:03:24,719 --> 03:03:33,120
like an indirect cause and the crushing. The crushing is the son's willful acceptance

2118
03:03:33,159 --> 03:03:37,520
of death. It's not spiritual death. It is death as in his soul

2119
03:03:37,639 --> 03:03:43,479
being severed from his body. Right, No, exactly exactly, And the

2120
03:03:43,520 --> 03:03:48,159
Father is in agreement with that.
So yeah, I'm with you on that.

2121
03:03:48,319 --> 03:03:50,719
So look, this is the prayer
in the garden, right. So

2122
03:03:50,719 --> 03:03:56,239
the prayer in the garden is if
you read Maximist the Confessor's little book against

2123
03:03:56,280 --> 03:03:58,559
Pearis, it's called Disputation with Pearis. The whole debate ends up being about

2124
03:04:00,079 --> 03:04:05,159
that's happening in the prayer in Gaseimone. And when Jesus says, not my

2125
03:04:05,280 --> 03:04:07,399
will be done, but I will
be done, the divine person of the

2126
03:04:07,440 --> 03:04:11,760
son is submitting his human will to
the divine will of the Father, which

2127
03:04:11,760 --> 03:04:16,840
he shares with the Father. So
he's he is determining to submit the human

2128
03:04:16,879 --> 03:04:22,920
will that he possesses to accept death. And what is death there? It

2129
03:04:22,959 --> 03:04:26,200
is not spiritual death. How could
the divine person of the son have a

2130
03:04:26,239 --> 03:04:30,559
spiritual death? This would split the
trinity. He's a divine person, he's

2131
03:04:30,559 --> 03:04:37,079
not a human person. That's Nestorianism. So the death that he's willfully accepting

2132
03:04:37,239 --> 03:04:41,680
can only be death in his flesh, namely his human nature, the severance

2133
03:04:41,680 --> 03:04:45,479
of the human soul from human body. Yeah, and if there was anybody

2134
03:04:45,479 --> 03:04:48,920
that ever said that like Jesus the
Son, like God experienced some type of

2135
03:04:48,959 --> 03:04:52,559
spiritual death, like that's crazy and
that's all that that's Luther says that.

2136
03:04:52,639 --> 03:04:58,280
Calvin says that the Puritans say that. John Murray says that Charles Hodge says

2137
03:04:58,319 --> 03:05:01,879
that that's very common in the classical
rights reformers. Okay, I mean I've

2138
03:05:01,920 --> 03:05:05,159
been looking it up. I haven't
been able to find like direct sources.

2139
03:05:05,239 --> 03:05:09,239
I'll show you. I'll show you
this. I'll show you katina of quotations

2140
03:05:09,319 --> 03:05:18,440
right here, because my buddy,
old Catholic buddy, he compiled a bunch

2141
03:05:18,440 --> 03:05:24,840
of these like twelve or thirteen years
ago, and he has all the sources

2142
03:05:24,879 --> 03:05:28,840
too. So it's I think it's
called uh hopefully it's still up. Yeah.

2143
03:05:28,840 --> 03:05:33,079
Here it is, was Jesus damned
in your place? Nick's blog And

2144
03:05:33,159 --> 03:05:39,920
he cites a bunch of reform John
Piper, Lorraine Bettner, the famous Calvinist,

2145
03:05:39,959 --> 03:05:45,360
John MacArthur. H Let's see,
he's got Charles Hodge this Mata theology

2146
03:05:45,360 --> 03:05:50,639
Calvin Institute of the Christiana Religion.
J. I. Packer, Wayne Grudom

2147
03:05:50,760 --> 03:05:52,799
Luther says it too. I don't
know if he has Luther in this in

2148
03:05:52,840 --> 03:05:58,319
this collection, but Luther does say
it so, and they actually call it

2149
03:05:58,479 --> 03:06:05,079
spiritual death. It's damnation, okay, And this is okay. So I've

2150
03:06:05,120 --> 03:06:07,520
I called a few people today and
I was talking to him about that,

2151
03:06:07,600 --> 03:06:13,239
and I'm aware that they use words
like damnation and stuff. But like,

2152
03:06:13,319 --> 03:06:16,040
what what people have been explaining to
me, and I've talked to quite a

2153
03:06:16,079 --> 03:06:18,319
lot of people, is that it
is it does have to do with his

2154
03:06:18,399 --> 03:06:24,280
death on the cross. It's not
some type of like eternal damnation. It's

2155
03:06:24,799 --> 03:06:28,559
it's more of what I mean,
what what is separation from what is separation

2156
03:06:28,680 --> 03:06:33,159
from God? Luther says that in
that instant he experienced. So what Luther

2157
03:06:33,319 --> 03:06:37,120
does is he reinterprets the phrase and
the creed that he descended into Hades.

2158
03:06:37,639 --> 03:06:41,479
Luther says the descent in Hades doesn't
mean that he literally went to a realm

2159
03:06:41,479 --> 03:06:46,639
of the dead called Hades. It
means that he experienced in that instant all

2160
03:06:46,680 --> 03:06:52,120
of the torments and damnation of the
Father from all eternity in that instant,

2161
03:06:52,360 --> 03:06:56,680
and Luther says he can do that
because he's God. So yeah, I'm

2162
03:06:56,680 --> 03:06:58,520
gonna have to check out those times. Well, I mean, I've got

2163
03:06:58,559 --> 03:07:01,559
it right here. I've got it
pulled up. Bro, it's right here

2164
03:07:01,600 --> 03:07:05,399
on the thing. I can't see
it. You want to here, let

2165
03:07:05,399 --> 03:07:07,600
me read you, Luther or treat
us on preparing to die. So then

2166
03:07:07,680 --> 03:07:11,440
gays at the heavenly picture of Christ, who descended into hell for your sake,

2167
03:07:11,920 --> 03:07:18,399
was forsaken by God as one eternally
damned when he spoke Eli Eli Lama

2168
03:07:18,440 --> 03:07:24,600
Sabacthani. That's Luther right there.
Treat us on preparation for death. Yeah,

2169
03:07:24,719 --> 03:07:26,840
yeah, I would. I couldn't. I would. I could never

2170
03:07:26,920 --> 03:07:31,879
accept that. But well it's anti
yeah, and that makes sense to me.

2171
03:07:31,920 --> 03:07:35,200
That's what I'm saying, Like these
that argument that you use against what

2172
03:07:35,319 --> 03:07:39,000
some of those reformers said, Like
I would, I would agree with you

2173
03:07:39,079 --> 03:07:43,639
on that. So could What would
you say if I were to affirm,

2174
03:07:43,799 --> 03:07:46,959
you know, kind of what you
explained earlier about you know, a type

2175
03:07:48,159 --> 03:07:54,120
or a form of substitution atonement.
If I were to affirm that, I

2176
03:07:54,120 --> 03:07:58,159
mean, isn't that, in a
sense a type of sub penal substitutionary atonement.

2177
03:07:58,319 --> 03:08:01,799
It's just not It just depends on
what you mean by the words.

2178
03:08:01,120 --> 03:08:05,440
It just depends on what one means
by the words. But the whole key

2179
03:08:05,440 --> 03:08:09,159
to understanding this issue is actually Christology. Once you figure out if you read

2180
03:08:09,159 --> 03:08:13,040
the John mcguck and book Saint Cyril
of Alexander the Christological Controversy, it will

2181
03:08:13,040 --> 03:08:16,159
get rid of all of the Protestant
ideas that you might have, or the

2182
03:08:16,239 --> 03:08:20,639
Roman Catholic ideas that you might be
tempted with, because once you get cyri

2183
03:08:20,719 --> 03:08:24,360
Lene Christology down and you understand that
the divine person of the Word is the

2184
03:08:24,399 --> 03:08:28,360
only subject, it's not possible for
any of these Protestant positions. Yeah,

2185
03:08:28,360 --> 03:08:33,040
I'm gonna have to check that book
out. The last thing, it's so

2186
03:08:33,760 --> 03:08:39,159
it's kind of a two part thing. So do you believe that God experiences

2187
03:08:39,319 --> 03:08:43,159
emotions? Or like, how does
does God experience emotion? I mean it's

2188
03:08:43,159 --> 03:08:48,239
probably not going to be like we
do. But does he experience joy or

2189
03:08:48,280 --> 03:08:52,000
anger or things like that? Well, we typically call those divine energies,

2190
03:08:52,159 --> 03:08:56,319
and so I don't think we would
equate them to human emotions. I mean,

2191
03:08:56,319 --> 03:08:58,360
we're told that God is not a
man like a man who changes his

2192
03:08:58,399 --> 03:09:05,040
mind. So not in the in
his divinity, no, but in the

2193
03:09:05,120 --> 03:09:11,239
sense of the revelation in Christ,
because Christ took on human nature in that

2194
03:09:11,319 --> 03:09:13,120
sense. Yes, he really does
cry, he really does have love,

2195
03:09:13,200 --> 03:09:20,120
He really does, you know,
experience human emotions and so forth. Okay,

2196
03:09:20,239 --> 03:09:22,719
because I was going to say,
the last thing I was going to

2197
03:09:22,760 --> 03:09:26,959
bring up is also in Isaiah fifty
three where it says our sins were placed

2198
03:09:28,000 --> 03:09:31,879
upon him. Well, I mean
the Bible says that like God hates sin,

2199
03:09:33,719 --> 03:09:35,799
uh, not that the Father is
going to hate the son because our

2200
03:09:35,879 --> 03:09:39,959
sins put on him. Yeah,
but God we don't worship, right,

2201
03:09:41,000 --> 03:09:43,000
So but God is not like Zeus, Right, we don't worship a god

2202
03:09:43,000 --> 03:09:48,079
who uh is this tyrant in the
sky who's constantly getting mad and getting upset.

2203
03:09:48,120 --> 03:09:54,040
I mean that's like, that's a
that's an anthropomorphic error. So God

2204
03:09:54,120 --> 03:09:58,719
doesn't experience the passions, He's not
fallen. Okay, So those are terms.

2205
03:09:58,760 --> 03:10:01,319
It's it's anthrop war perfect terms that
try to tell us and explain to

2206
03:10:01,399 --> 03:10:05,440
us how God is. But no, God's not actually sitting around like super

2207
03:10:05,479 --> 03:10:09,360
mad and angry. It's just it's
human language that's trying to tell us about

2208
03:10:09,399 --> 03:10:16,479
the divine But when it says,
for example, uh, he placed I

2209
03:10:16,479 --> 03:10:20,639
mean, let's think about this for
a minute, like sin and evil.

2210
03:10:20,760 --> 03:10:24,600
You understand that they don't have being
or substance. Do you know what I

2211
03:10:24,639 --> 03:10:30,520
mean by that? Yeah? Okay, so they can't Actually, so there's

2212
03:10:30,559 --> 03:10:35,840
not literal Jesus can't literally become sin, right because sin is not a thing.

2213
03:10:39,600 --> 03:10:41,360
Okay. So if that's the case, then when what Isaiah's saying,

2214
03:10:41,440 --> 03:10:46,719
it can't mean that. Like remember
in the when the Jews would place their

2215
03:10:46,760 --> 03:10:50,559
hands on the scapegoat, like do
they literally put sins on the scapegoat?

2216
03:10:52,000 --> 03:10:56,040
It's they're they're sinful, They're given
them the consequence of sin, which so

2217
03:10:56,120 --> 03:11:01,440
that's exactly that's appropriation. And so
in the same way, when Jonadanmasus is

2218
03:11:01,440 --> 03:11:05,280
explaining what sins Christ became a curse
or it became sin, it's by appropriation.

2219
03:11:05,399 --> 03:11:09,639
It's as if he was one curse. But he's not cursed. And

2220
03:11:09,680 --> 03:11:16,559
the father never ceases to love the
son. And so the language about punishment

2221
03:11:16,559 --> 03:11:24,760
and so forth and chastisement is not
because the father is unjust and punishes his

2222
03:11:24,920 --> 03:11:30,840
son unjustly. You know, it's
explained as the son willfully doing these things.

2223
03:11:31,239 --> 03:11:33,600
He didn't have to do these things. He willed to do those things.

2224
03:11:35,959 --> 03:11:39,559
Sure, and he will to do
that. He willed to do these

2225
03:11:39,559 --> 03:11:43,120
things for our healings. So yeah, great questions. Let's see Dan,

2226
03:11:43,280 --> 03:11:56,639
what's up? I don't know,
Dan, I still can't hear you.

2227
03:11:56,760 --> 03:12:00,399
So I don't know if you didn't
turn your mic on or what, but

2228
03:12:00,440 --> 03:12:07,360
we can't hear you. So now
there's like eight people want to chat now

2229
03:12:07,360 --> 03:12:13,239
that I'm about done, So do
we get more super chats? Let's see

2230
03:12:13,239 --> 03:12:20,680
here, let's see next one.
Shane pay a twenty five dollars, thank

2231
03:12:20,719 --> 03:12:28,600
you so much. I watched the
three hour plus video on John. Oh

2232
03:12:28,760 --> 03:12:33,760
you mean like the Gospel of John
talks and the three out there's not one

2233
03:12:33,799 --> 03:12:35,600
three hour video on John. I've
lectured through the whole Gospel John, so

2234
03:12:35,639 --> 03:12:39,239
that if you missed it, there's
actually a lecture on every chapter of John.

2235
03:12:39,719 --> 03:12:43,760
And then the three hour video on
Rocky mister e thank you so much.

2236
03:12:43,200 --> 03:12:48,399
Kine has five dollars. Do you
think that most church fathers say physical

2237
03:12:48,399 --> 03:12:54,399
intercourse as a result of the fall? Is this mandatory orthodox teaching? I

2238
03:12:54,440 --> 03:12:58,079
don't know if I don't know.
Most do. If you want to ask

2239
03:12:58,120 --> 03:13:03,319
somebody who would know that better than
me, Father Deacon Patrick that I interviewed

2240
03:13:03,399 --> 03:13:09,479
on Deacon Essa's he would probably know
that question better than me. There is

2241
03:13:09,680 --> 03:13:13,520
dispute even the father siffrom Rose and
his Genesis creation early man, but mentions

2242
03:13:16,079 --> 03:13:22,280
patristic disputes about whether sexuality biological,
you know, differences whether that injured as

2243
03:13:22,319 --> 03:13:26,360
a result of fall or not.
I don't think it did. I mean,

2244
03:13:26,440 --> 03:13:31,120
and so there's there's some patrictic dispute
here. I think Genesi is pretty

2245
03:13:31,159 --> 03:13:33,639
clear that men and women are men
and women before the fall, so I

2246
03:13:33,680 --> 03:13:37,719
think that the Cappa Docians and even
Saint Maximus did make some mistakes here.

2247
03:13:39,000 --> 03:13:43,360
Alexanderslsient five dollars. What do you
think about John McGuckin. I only recommend

2248
03:13:43,479 --> 03:13:48,000
the Serial book, but I think
that he's gone pretty liberal, so I

2249
03:13:48,000 --> 03:13:50,760
wouldn't recommend much more. Doug twenty
dollars. I'm new to Orthodoxy. What's

2250
03:13:50,799 --> 03:13:54,559
the Bible translation that you recommend?
Yeah, I think the Orthodox study bubble

2251
03:13:54,559 --> 03:13:58,319
is the best. I think you
called in DC would working three dollars,

2252
03:13:58,319 --> 03:14:03,399
Thank you so much, US five
dollars. Let us make if this is

2253
03:14:03,879 --> 03:14:07,000
speaking of the angels, well,
that also means that the angels created us.

2254
03:14:07,559 --> 03:14:11,000
Actually, yeah, some of the
people that propose the idea that it's

2255
03:14:11,040 --> 03:14:20,440
a Unitarian deity that's creating are well
would then seemingly give angels a creative power.

2256
03:14:20,440 --> 03:14:24,120
And so I think some of them
would actually bite the bullet and say,

2257
03:14:24,159 --> 03:14:28,239
yeah, the angels co created us
as well. And this ends up

2258
03:14:28,319 --> 03:14:31,840
kind of moving into neoplatonism. So
neoplatonic ideas, you kind of have creation

2259
03:14:33,079 --> 03:14:37,920
not being a direct thing from God
or the monad. It's more of a

2260
03:14:37,040 --> 03:14:48,559
like a a series of ontologically diminished
emanations, and so nothing would directly come

2261
03:14:48,600 --> 03:14:52,559
from the first principle. You would
have to have these kind of gradations of

2262
03:14:52,680 --> 03:14:56,639
lower principles of the diad and the
triad, and that that's where you would

2263
03:14:56,680 --> 03:15:03,680
get the the elements that make up
the create the beings in our dimension.

2264
03:15:03,719 --> 03:15:11,239
I think even I think even Egyptian
theology has this view. And that's why

2265
03:15:11,360 --> 03:15:15,840
you'll you'll if you look at like
Egyptian metaphysics and whatnot, like they think

2266
03:15:15,920 --> 03:15:22,639
that like one of the principles is
like the principle behind femininity. Right,

2267
03:15:22,719 --> 03:15:28,319
So there's a goddess of femininity,
nu eat or whatever, and so she's

2268
03:15:28,520 --> 03:15:33,000
responsible for that domain of creation,
right, So that's kind of a neoplatonic

2269
03:15:33,040 --> 03:15:39,319
and I think Egyptian. Do you
anthemost of Bulgaria five dollars? Isaiah seven

2270
03:15:39,680 --> 03:15:45,120
fourteen? Is this about Christ?
And also a contemporary event in Isaiah?

2271
03:15:45,120 --> 03:15:46,959
I think so. I think it's
in Asaia as there is something. A

2272
03:15:48,000 --> 03:15:56,559
lot of the Messianic prophecies tend to
be events that were occurring at that time

2273
03:15:56,639 --> 03:16:01,559
and something future messianics, so there's
always this mirroring going on. So I

2274
03:16:01,559 --> 03:16:07,639
think Isaiah right, probably had an
offspring, but that event, and I'm

2275
03:16:07,639 --> 03:16:13,319
not saying Isaiah's offspring was a virgin
birth, but that event typifies something in

2276
03:16:13,360 --> 03:16:18,639
the Messianic period. Let me give
an example of this. Isaiah nineteen has

2277
03:16:18,680 --> 03:16:24,920
a discussion, for example, of
this proclamation against Egypt. Now, this

2278
03:16:24,040 --> 03:16:28,600
is something relevant to in terms of
what we call the grammatical historical interpretation.

2279
03:16:30,079 --> 03:16:35,079
The immediate grammatical historical reference is what's
happening in Isaiah's day in regard to a

2280
03:16:35,159 --> 03:16:41,680
prophecy against Egypt. Okay, so
we see this. However, as the

2281
03:16:41,719 --> 03:16:50,040
prophecy progresses, we get this interesting
statement here that there's a coming day where

2282
03:16:52,000 --> 03:16:56,760
five cities of the land of Egypt
will speak the language of Canaan, that

2283
03:16:56,879 --> 03:17:03,920
is, of Israel. One will
be called the city of Destruction. Look

2284
03:17:03,920 --> 03:17:07,680
at this. In that day there
will be an altar to Yahweh in Egypt.

2285
03:17:13,120 --> 03:17:18,159
Now wait a minute, how could
the this is post temple? Right?

2286
03:17:18,159 --> 03:17:26,520
The only lawful temple in the Old
Testament period is where Jerusalem. You

2287
03:17:26,559 --> 03:17:31,399
can't go set up your own altar. When Jeroboam sets up his own altar,

2288
03:17:31,639 --> 03:17:35,719
he's condemned for this right because when
Israel splits the northern tribes and the

2289
03:17:35,719 --> 03:17:45,760
southern, the Ten Tribes and then
Judah, the lawful place of worship is

2290
03:17:45,840 --> 03:17:52,719
the Southern tribe of Israel, I
mean Judah. Excuse me well. Being

2291
03:17:52,760 --> 03:18:00,200
a crafty statesman, Jereboam knows that
he can't let Israel's worship be an the

2292
03:18:00,239 --> 03:18:05,040
South that's his enemy. So he
concocts the made up worship of Dan and

2293
03:18:05,120 --> 03:18:07,680
Bethel. So he makes his own
altars, his own temples, which are

2294
03:18:07,719 --> 03:18:13,280
state controlled via his cult. This
is by the way that this is like

2295
03:18:13,319 --> 03:18:20,239
ancient Acumenism. Of course, he's
condemned for this. So how is Isaiah

2296
03:18:20,600 --> 03:18:28,079
talking about an actual historical prophecy against
Egypt. How's he gonna How could there

2297
03:18:28,120 --> 03:18:33,559
be ever an altar to Yahweh in
Egypt. That's not possible, Ah,

2298
03:18:33,600 --> 03:18:41,159
But it is possible if this is
fulfilled in the Messianic era, when the

2299
03:18:41,280 --> 03:18:46,760
Church spreads to Egypt as well as
to Assyria and the name of the Lord

2300
03:18:46,920 --> 03:18:52,479
is called upon in those pagan lands. Imagine how this would have blown Isaiah's

2301
03:18:52,520 --> 03:18:58,040
mind. How could we have an
altar in Egypt? This doesn't even seem

2302
03:18:58,079 --> 03:19:01,559
possible. That day there's an altar
to the Lord in Egypt, a pillar

2303
03:19:01,600 --> 03:19:05,079
to the Lord at his border,
and it will be for a sign and

2304
03:19:05,079 --> 03:19:07,840
a witness to the Lord of Hosts
in Egypt. For they will cry the

2305
03:19:07,920 --> 03:19:11,719
Lord because their pressures, because will
send them a savior. So this is

2306
03:19:11,719 --> 03:19:18,840
a messyantic prophecy. Then Yahweh will
be known in Egypt. What and Egyptians

2307
03:19:18,879 --> 03:19:24,399
will know the Lord and make a
sacrifice. And it's almost like it's repeated,

2308
03:19:24,440 --> 03:19:26,520
because they would have had Isaiah and
his audience would have had a hard

2309
03:19:26,520 --> 03:19:31,159
time believing this once. How will
they make a sacrifice an offer? You

2310
03:19:31,200 --> 03:19:33,239
can't, they can't. Are they
going to come to Jerusalem. How is

2311
03:19:33,239 --> 03:19:39,120
that possible? The Lord will strike
Egypt and it will heal it. He

2312
03:19:39,159 --> 03:19:43,280
will be entreated by them and healing
what God hates Egyptians? Right, you're

2313
03:19:43,280 --> 03:19:46,479
a Jew, You're thinking God doesn't
love them, He only loves us.

2314
03:19:46,520 --> 03:19:52,200
How could this be possible? In
that day there will be a highway from

2315
03:19:52,239 --> 03:19:54,360
Egypt to Assyria. The a Syrian
will come to Egypt and the Egyptian go

2316
03:19:54,399 --> 03:20:03,120
to Asyria and they will serve God
with the Assyrians. What this will be

2317
03:20:03,159 --> 03:20:05,840
blowing them up? Well, I
mean, these kinds of prophecies are probably

2318
03:20:05,840 --> 03:20:07,959
why they killed Isaiah. You know, the Jews killed Isaiah. Right.

2319
03:20:13,079 --> 03:20:15,360
I didn't even realize we got all
these other superjets. I thought there was

2320
03:20:15,399 --> 03:20:20,639
like two mores. Actually got a
whole bunch. More So, this was

2321
03:20:20,639 --> 03:20:28,280
to Andy's question about Isaiah. Andy, sorry, Anthemos's question about Isaiah seven,

2322
03:20:28,879 --> 03:20:31,200
And you're asking about the mirrored principle. Exactly. That's what we're talking

2323
03:20:31,200 --> 03:20:33,600
about here, this mirrored principle.
So notice this, there's the key point.

2324
03:20:35,000 --> 03:20:39,079
This is the killer. The Killer
text one of many examples proving this.

2325
03:20:41,159 --> 03:20:43,719
In that day, Israel be one
of three with Egypt and Assyria.

2326
03:20:43,840 --> 03:20:48,200
Did you hear that? Mind blowing? How could Israel be one of three?

2327
03:20:48,239 --> 03:20:52,120
With Egypt and Asyria their enemies.
A blessing in the midst of the

2328
03:20:52,159 --> 03:20:56,399
land, The Lord of Host will
say, blessed is Egypt to my people?

2329
03:20:56,559 --> 03:21:03,319
What Egypt my people, Assyria?
The work of my hands, Israel

2330
03:21:03,360 --> 03:21:09,120
my inheritance. Well that's exactly what
happens when the Messiah comes and his Gospel

2331
03:21:09,159 --> 03:21:13,399
of the Kingdom spreads to the Egyptians
and the Assyrians to graft them into the

2332
03:21:13,399 --> 03:21:22,719
Covenant. So it's both andy five
dollars I jumped in late. I'm trying

2333
03:21:22,719 --> 03:21:26,959
to understand natural theology. Is it
based on One Corinthians fifteen forty six?

2334
03:21:28,159 --> 03:21:39,040
I don't think so. By the
way, isn't it funny when they appeal

2335
03:21:39,120 --> 03:21:43,920
to the Bible for natural theology because
natural theology is not supposed to be It's

2336
03:21:45,479 --> 03:21:48,719
defined as apart from revelation, So
it's ironic when they appeal to revelation to

2337
03:21:48,760 --> 03:21:52,719
try to prove natural theology. But
the texts they're usingly don't even prove natural

2338
03:21:52,760 --> 03:21:58,040
theology anyway, So natural revelation is
not natural theology. So no, this

2339
03:21:58,079 --> 03:22:03,120
has nothing to do with natural theology. Paul talking about the natural first before

2340
03:22:03,159 --> 03:22:09,680
the spiritual is referring to our biological
life and reality preparation preparing us for the

2341
03:22:09,479 --> 03:22:13,760
eternal life spiritual reality. Natural theology
again, guys, if you remember,

2342
03:22:13,000 --> 03:22:18,559
it is simply defined as speculating and
philosophizing about God using human reason apart from

2343
03:22:18,559 --> 03:22:22,600
divine revelation. That's all it means. That's what is defined as by William

2344
03:22:22,639 --> 03:22:26,000
Lane Craig and John Paul. A
second, so it's not even a contentious

2345
03:22:26,319 --> 03:22:30,280
issue, and that's what I'm always
critiquing. So I don't know why people

2346
03:22:30,280 --> 03:22:35,680
get so confused over this because they
think that using reasoning is No, it's

2347
03:22:35,719 --> 03:22:39,159
not. That's not what natural.
Using a faculty is not natural theology.

2348
03:22:39,399 --> 03:22:43,399
Making arguments is not natural theology.
And it is baffling to me that in

2349
03:22:43,440 --> 03:22:50,399
the debate I sent over to Trent
the definition of what natural theology is that

2350
03:22:50,399 --> 03:22:52,280
we would be debating, and he's
like, yeah, that's fine, and

2351
03:22:52,280 --> 03:22:58,840
then in the debate he's doesn't even
stick to the don't know so, no,

2352
03:22:58,959 --> 03:23:01,200
it doesn't have to do with the
fir Grita's fifteen forty six. The

2353
03:23:01,239 --> 03:23:05,719
Messiah is the word in the flesh, Andy says as a son. Correct

2354
03:23:07,120 --> 03:23:11,639
at that time, was Yahweh functioning
as a son to show people to be

2355
03:23:11,719 --> 03:23:16,000
his children? I mean it wasn't
at that time. It was always that

2356
03:23:16,120 --> 03:23:22,280
case that Jesus came to not just
be our example of how to be sons

2357
03:23:22,280 --> 03:23:26,000
of God, but to actually ontologically
make us sons of God. And that's

2358
03:23:26,000 --> 03:23:30,399
why Grace is uncreated us from OKJ
fifty says for three dollars, it's theistic

2359
03:23:30,479 --> 03:23:35,680
evolution debate between you and inspiring philosophy
ever happening, I don't think so.

2360
03:23:35,760 --> 03:23:41,520
We haven't talked about it. We
decided to, you know, just kind

2361
03:23:41,559 --> 03:23:48,600
of make amends and have common discourse
against Muslims. But he hasn't expressed any

2362
03:23:48,639 --> 03:23:52,000
desire for any debates on that.
Noah m five dollars. If I played

2363
03:23:52,000 --> 03:23:56,159
Devil's advocate, If I define God
as three persons in one essence, how

2364
03:23:56,280 --> 03:24:01,559
is this different from three human persons? Because human persons exist in a created

2365
03:24:01,600 --> 03:24:05,760
motive being. God is uncreated,
So the motive being that God has is

2366
03:24:05,799 --> 03:24:11,760
not identical to human modes of being. So there's an analogy you could make

2367
03:24:11,799 --> 03:24:16,360
between the relationship between person and nature
and human beings. But the analogies always

2368
03:24:16,360 --> 03:24:18,280
fall apart when you try to map
them directly on in a one to one

2369
03:24:18,280 --> 03:24:22,920
correspondence to God. Peter, Paul, and John are three persons who share

2370
03:24:22,920 --> 03:24:26,479
one human essence, correct, but
they are not quote one human right,

2371
03:24:26,520 --> 03:24:30,079
but they are one essence. So
that's where the analogy lines up. But

2372
03:24:30,280 --> 03:24:33,879
because there are three discrete beings all
created, analogies will always fall short.

2373
03:24:33,879 --> 03:24:41,079
And that's why it's called analogical likening
and not univical or equivalent. Unifical predication

2374
03:24:41,239 --> 03:24:46,159
is what you're asking so for,
if we were to say that Peter,

2375
03:24:46,239 --> 03:24:50,920
Paul and John were three and one
in an identical or unifical sense to the

2376
03:24:50,920 --> 03:24:52,520
way that God is three and one, then we believe in three gods.

2377
03:24:54,799 --> 03:25:01,399
Zozah five dollars. Open theology is
becoming widespread. I don't know why it's

2378
03:25:01,399 --> 03:25:07,440
annoying that every debate on the subject
is a Calvinist versus somebody like reality is

2379
03:25:07,479 --> 03:25:11,440
not optionals debate with Matt Slick it
was a very bad debate. You don't

2380
03:25:11,440 --> 03:25:16,120
have any Orthodox apologists on this topic. I don't think so. I just

2381
03:25:16,159 --> 03:25:22,319
think it's very standard. I mean, we're to read any Orthodox theological exposition

2382
03:25:22,559 --> 03:25:28,719
or Patristic exposition of the first seven
centuries, nobody would deny divine omniscience.

2383
03:25:28,879 --> 03:25:35,520
So the idea that God updates his
knowledge with proposition new propositional knowledge, which,

2384
03:25:35,559 --> 03:25:37,799
by the way, I think Jake
believes that we didn't actually get to

2385
03:25:37,840 --> 03:25:45,520
that in the Jake debate. But
unless I misunderstood his even to me a

2386
03:25:45,559 --> 03:25:50,440
Salafi position or whatever, I'm pretty
sure they think that God learns new facts

2387
03:25:50,479 --> 03:25:52,319
and it's like he gets a daily
upload. So to me that would be

2388
03:25:52,559 --> 03:26:01,719
that's weird, bizarre of kind of
open theism, And to me it's just

2389
03:26:01,920 --> 03:26:07,319
it's a weird anthropomorphic heresy, like
why would we think that God gets new

2390
03:26:07,479 --> 03:26:13,559
downloads of information? It's just silly. I mean, the scripture says many

2391
03:26:13,600 --> 03:26:18,040
times over that God is on miscient, so is weird to me? Damasing

2392
03:26:18,079 --> 03:26:24,000
three dollars, What do you think
would happen to the monastery of Elder Ephraim

2393
03:26:24,040 --> 03:26:28,959
if a schism happens, I guess
you mean between go arch ep and the

2394
03:26:28,360 --> 03:26:35,120
others. I have no idea.
I don't know. I guess it's possible

2395
03:26:35,200 --> 03:26:46,120
that some of those groups would leave
communion with with the Greeks, I guess,

2396
03:26:48,120 --> 03:26:50,040
and they would come over to us. I don't know. Amazing,

2397
03:26:50,079 --> 03:26:54,479
Noel. Ten dollars. Thank you
for helping as an inquiring person looking to

2398
03:26:56,200 --> 03:27:01,920
looking for the push to convert.
Cool. Yeah, I hope you.

2399
03:27:01,920 --> 03:27:05,399
You know, definitely check out the
church though, because a lot of people

2400
03:27:05,399 --> 03:27:09,239
we don't want to give the misunderstanding
or mislead people. I'm thinking that like

2401
03:27:09,399 --> 03:27:11,760
this is a bunch of intellectual online
stuff. Now you have to go and

2402
03:27:11,879 --> 03:27:16,479
actually join the church so that you're
not Orthodox until you know you actually go

2403
03:27:16,559 --> 03:27:22,360
do that. So and if you're
where you don't have access, I'm not

2404
03:27:22,319 --> 03:27:28,600
condemning you. That's not your fault. So you are and can be Orthodox

2405
03:27:28,600 --> 03:27:33,879
impotentia so and God knows our hearts, so I wouldn't freak out if you,

2406
03:27:33,879 --> 03:27:37,040
you know, are believing Orthodoxy and
then you die before you can get

2407
03:27:37,079 --> 03:27:43,360
to the church. We have a
we have a consistent tradition of baptism of

2408
03:27:43,399 --> 03:27:46,319
desire, baptism of martyrdom and fire
and all that. Amazing, Noel,

2409
03:27:46,479 --> 03:27:50,760
I know that was your donutsis five
dollars. There's a clip of a heretical

2410
03:27:50,760 --> 03:27:56,120
bishop named mar Mary that doves into
Christology. You should analyze his errors if

2411
03:27:56,159 --> 03:28:01,159
you have time. Well, I
think Father McHale already did so, and

2412
03:28:01,200 --> 03:28:05,040
in his video kind of went in
mini viral, I guess, so to

2413
03:28:05,040 --> 03:28:11,879
speak. So, guys, if
you guys aren't familiar, I'm trying to.

2414
03:28:13,120 --> 03:28:16,680
I think it's Living Orthodox. It's
his channel, and he did a

2415
03:28:16,879 --> 03:28:22,600
video. I think he's done two
videos now responding to yeah here it is

2416
03:28:22,399 --> 03:28:26,639
so the first one he got almost
one hundred thousand views on. So first

2417
03:28:26,639 --> 03:28:35,200
of all, go check out this
video here from Father McHale. Uh,

2418
03:28:35,319 --> 03:28:41,159
And this is a good response to
mar Maari. Now a lot of people

2419
03:28:41,159 --> 03:28:43,319
got mad too, because they're like, wow, how dare you critique this

2420
03:28:43,399 --> 03:28:46,559
guy? Well, I'm sorry,
but there are areas and places that he

2421
03:28:46,639 --> 03:28:52,280
needs to be critiqued. And then
everybody's mad because you're attacking Oh men of

2422
03:28:52,360 --> 03:28:54,719
God. It's like, now,
look, we're not trying to be mean

2423
03:28:54,840 --> 03:29:00,600
and whatnot. It's just that if
the default, if the theology is we're

2424
03:29:00,639 --> 03:29:05,440
gonna use Krista tokos and not Theo
Tokos. Sorry, we have to go

2425
03:29:05,479 --> 03:29:07,559
after that. I'm sorry. It's
just we have to. We're bound to

2426
03:29:07,959 --> 03:29:11,959
our tradition to do that. And
I want to remind you guys, how

2427
03:29:13,159 --> 03:29:20,920
awful it is and ridiculous, and
how ignorant these people are who claim to

2428
03:29:20,920 --> 03:29:28,120
be these apologists, Like what's this
guy's name, freaking Rocky Balboa of Roman

2429
03:29:28,200 --> 03:29:33,959
Catholicism over here, I forget his
name, but the voice of reason guy

2430
03:29:33,440 --> 03:29:37,200
who literally sits here telling you that
the Storius is not a heretic. I

2431
03:29:37,239 --> 03:29:43,639
mean, I can't believe that this
is where they're at. And I mean,

2432
03:29:43,680 --> 03:29:48,120
if you're falling for this, you're
just you're just you're just You're clueless.

2433
03:29:48,120 --> 03:29:50,239
Man, you don't have any idea
what's going on. I just don't.

2434
03:29:50,319 --> 03:29:54,159
I don't get it. How could
anybody think, especially if you read

2435
03:29:54,920 --> 03:29:58,559
ephesis. Oh, ephesis actually got
it wrong. And by the way,

2436
03:29:58,840 --> 03:30:03,000
multiple councils outter ephesis reaffirmed the condemnation
of Nestorias. So this is just mind

2437
03:30:03,040 --> 03:30:16,920
blowing to me that anyone takes us
seriously. Uh so uh in the same

2438
03:30:16,959 --> 03:30:22,200
way that when the Council of Emphasis
condemned Astorias as erretic, we know now

2439
03:30:22,239 --> 03:30:33,040
looking back that the council was actually
incorrect. The council field and he goes

2440
03:30:33,120 --> 03:30:37,040
on in that clip to talk about
more errors in the ecumenical councils not knowing,

2441
03:30:37,280 --> 03:30:41,280
I mean imagine thinking that they can't. So I guess so maybe Arias

2442
03:30:41,479 --> 03:30:46,040
wasn't uh that bad of a guy. There Areas wasn't an Aryan, right?

2443
03:30:46,120 --> 03:30:50,959
You see how silly this opens up
the floodgates to every ridiculous heresy Uh

2444
03:30:52,079 --> 03:30:56,399
making a comeback. And I'm not
trying to be mean, but look watching

2445
03:30:56,479 --> 03:31:03,319
that debate, I mean, Luigi
mopped the floor with his goof ball anti

2446
03:31:03,600 --> 03:31:07,079
like your daddy's sister one dollar World
religion. Would Religion the Apostles by by

2447
03:31:07,159 --> 03:31:11,159
Father Stephen Young be a good book
for a Protestant pastor. I've still not

2448
03:31:11,239 --> 03:31:13,600
read this book. I mean,
I'm not trying to be rude. I've

2449
03:31:13,639 --> 03:31:16,840
seen interviews where he talked about it. I assume so, but I don't

2450
03:31:16,920 --> 03:31:22,600
know how good it would be for
Protestants. But I mean, I don't

2451
03:31:22,600 --> 03:31:26,680
think the main issue that Protestants have
is like the Trinity, So I mean,

2452
03:31:26,719 --> 03:31:28,319
they have an effective view, and
I think Protestants are mainly going to

2453
03:31:28,319 --> 03:31:33,360
be concerned with, like you guys, worship idols and have pictures and have

2454
03:31:33,479 --> 03:31:35,799
traditions. I mean, I think
that's the main thing that Protestants are worried

2455
03:31:35,840 --> 03:31:39,399
about back in my right mind.
Eighty eight five dollars. Thank you for

2456
03:31:39,479 --> 03:31:43,600
what you do. I'm a seventy
three year old worth our experiment that has

2457
03:31:43,680 --> 03:31:46,719
learned from you. Hey, thank
you so much. Appreciate that. L

2458
03:31:46,760 --> 03:31:48,799
two eight five dollars. Can you
do your Steve Quail impression and bring it

2459
03:31:48,879 --> 03:31:52,639
back? How does he do?
Alex? This is Steve Quail. I

2460
03:31:52,680 --> 03:31:56,000
would remind you that the benevolent are
coming through the portals. It's gonna be

2461
03:31:56,159 --> 03:32:01,799
insane. The Illuminati has so many
portals. Now that's that I haven't done.

2462
03:32:01,799 --> 03:32:05,920
It's almost turning into my Mark Zuckerberg
impression. So I have to go

2463
03:32:05,040 --> 03:32:11,440
listen to some more. Uh.
I haven't listened to Steve Quill in a

2464
03:32:11,479 --> 03:32:15,399
long time, so I've forgotten how
he talks. Let's see, we've got

2465
03:32:15,440 --> 03:32:18,440
a couple more here. Roddy Roady, what's up? Roady? Rode?

2466
03:32:22,799 --> 03:32:26,559
Hey? Jay? And so one
question related to the thing you mentioned before

2467
03:32:26,639 --> 03:32:35,920
about Christ and his death was the
punishment. So I've always thought about the

2468
03:32:37,000 --> 03:32:43,280
way he died, I mean the
the the actual crucifixion. As a formal

2469
03:32:43,399 --> 03:32:46,360
Protestant, I've always thought that that
was the actual punishment. But now that

2470
03:32:46,520 --> 03:32:56,079
you terrify that I was, I
wanted I wanted to ask you why why?

2471
03:32:56,280 --> 03:33:03,520
I mean, I'm I do understand
the whole the crucifixion, but in

2472
03:33:03,719 --> 03:33:11,959
terms of why he needed to suffer
that much? Was it for other people?

2473
03:33:11,559 --> 03:33:16,040
I mean it was to relate to
our flesh. Well, Maximus says

2474
03:33:16,079 --> 03:33:18,440
that all of the sufferings and all
of the things that he went through were

2475
03:33:18,600 --> 03:33:22,200
for our healing, because so it
was nothing that he needed, and he

2476
03:33:22,280 --> 03:33:26,680
didn't have to do anything to pay
off the Father. God doesn't need anything.

2477
03:33:26,680 --> 03:33:28,360
There's no payments that we offered to
the Father. Well, then why

2478
03:33:28,440 --> 03:33:33,680
would there be an offering of the
humanity to the Father strictly and solely for

2479
03:33:33,879 --> 03:33:37,520
our healing? As this says,
So the offering is what heals and deifies

2480
03:33:37,639 --> 03:33:41,079
us. So Christ, as Maximus
says, going through all of these things

2481
03:33:41,239 --> 03:33:46,120
is actually crucifying all of the passions. Now, he didn't he didn't have

2482
03:33:46,399 --> 03:33:50,879
blameful passions. He had blame less
passions. But his conquering of those passions,

2483
03:33:50,920 --> 03:33:54,200
when we participate in his deified humanity, is what gives us the power

2484
03:33:54,280 --> 03:33:58,239
to overcome the passions. Maximus says, yeah, yeah, I've heard about

2485
03:33:58,280 --> 03:34:03,680
that because he angles to his sufferings. So many people who can relate to

2486
03:34:05,319 --> 03:34:11,399
a mother losing. Yeah, so
that's why. And also a little bit

2487
03:34:11,440 --> 03:34:20,120
of unrelated question that I've asked around
and I've got like a straight up answer.

2488
03:34:20,239 --> 03:34:24,799
Maybe you could light me on this. So the baptism, right,

2489
03:34:26,959 --> 03:34:37,719
was the Theotokos ever baptized by water? I don't think so. But I

2490
03:34:37,040 --> 03:34:43,479
haven't thought of this, and and
even and even the Apostles, because I

2491
03:34:43,559 --> 03:34:50,639
mean, there is one verse where
it says that the Christ and the Apostles

2492
03:34:50,719 --> 03:34:58,399
went to John the Baptist and and
they baptized and got something like that,

2493
03:34:58,000 --> 03:35:03,200
but it's not like it doesn't stay
clearly that they got baptized by water.

2494
03:35:03,239 --> 03:35:11,239
As interesting I have, I'm not
found with this. I've heard that because

2495
03:35:11,280 --> 03:35:18,399
they went through a pentecost, they
basically got christmated and got the Holy Spirit

2496
03:35:18,920 --> 03:35:24,879
that way. But I've always thought
about I mean, because I'm I'm catechumen

2497
03:35:24,920 --> 03:35:28,760
and I'm about to get baptized,
God willing in a couple of months.

2498
03:35:28,959 --> 03:35:35,760
So I've been reading about the baptism
and I've found that, and I was

2499
03:35:37,040 --> 03:35:41,280
thinking about if they actually got baptists, and I haven't got a reply.

2500
03:35:41,600 --> 03:35:46,280
I've actually asked a couple of priests
and they have also got surprise like you,

2501
03:35:46,959 --> 03:35:50,840
and so maybe but maybe it's it's
it's just I mean, so yeah,

2502
03:35:50,920 --> 03:35:54,719
I mean it's possible, right,
we don't know. So like Matthew,

2503
03:35:54,799 --> 03:35:58,319
so you know in Baptism's institute at
the end of Matthew twenty eight,

2504
03:35:58,360 --> 03:36:05,079
at the end of the gospel.
So maybe they were between the end of

2505
03:36:05,120 --> 03:36:07,479
the Gospel and what we see,
you know, between that time and Acts

2506
03:36:07,559 --> 03:36:13,159
two. Maybe, but but maybe
not. Maybe Christ for whatever reason felt

2507
03:36:13,200 --> 03:36:18,719
that it wasn't necessary since they had
been given a direct Apostolic succession and Pentecost.

2508
03:36:18,399 --> 03:36:22,399
I don't know. That's a great
question. Okay, well, thank

2509
03:36:22,399 --> 03:36:24,920
you so much. Yeah, people
in the chatter like something he doesn't know.

2510
03:36:26,079 --> 03:36:28,319
Dude, there's a lot I don't
know. And as you get older,

2511
03:36:28,719 --> 03:36:31,840
you're going to learn more and more
and more that you don't know.

2512
03:36:31,120 --> 03:36:33,479
So I don't care how smart you
are, I don't care how many books

2513
03:36:33,479 --> 03:36:39,280
you've read. As you get older, it's guess what it's there's only more

2514
03:36:39,319 --> 03:36:41,719
that you don't know. So that's
the only guarantee I can give you about

2515
03:36:43,040 --> 03:36:46,399
knowledge as you get older is that
you're gonna more and more and more and

2516
03:36:46,520 --> 03:36:50,360
more learn how much you don't know. I promise you that, I guarantee

2517
03:36:50,360 --> 03:36:56,840
you. And especially when you're like
in your twenties, when you're like twenty

2518
03:36:56,920 --> 03:37:00,479
five to thirty, that's like the
worst time because you think you know everything,

2519
03:37:00,520 --> 03:37:03,920
you've got everything figured out. You
don't. I promise you don't.

2520
03:37:03,079 --> 03:37:07,239
And by the time you're forty is
when you start to realize you don't know

2521
03:37:07,520 --> 03:37:11,440
everything. So you will. You
will learn this and change your mind quite

2522
03:37:11,479 --> 03:37:15,040
a bit from the time you're twenty
five to the time you're forty that I

2523
03:37:15,079 --> 03:37:20,399
can guarantee you. Beer, I
can't pronounce that. I can't even see

2524
03:37:20,399 --> 03:37:31,200
it all. Vela Bezi, what's
up? Dude? You got on?

2525
03:37:31,360 --> 03:37:39,840
You? Okay? Can you hear
me that? Yeah? I got a

2526
03:37:39,959 --> 03:37:43,479
question. So I want to preface
my saying that I'm pretty new to faith,

2527
03:37:45,079 --> 03:37:50,600
just getting started in all this theological
arguments and stuff. But I got

2528
03:37:50,719 --> 03:37:56,760
a question about the Koran and the
Islamic school of thought on entrance to heaven

2529
03:37:58,719 --> 03:38:03,559
versus that with Christian danity, which
talks about salvation and redemption. So I

2530
03:38:03,600 --> 03:38:09,719
want I want to know why do
you think specifically that it's more theologically rational

2531
03:38:09,719 --> 03:38:16,639
that we have a salvation through Christ
as opposed to in the coroner a lot

2532
03:38:16,719 --> 03:38:18,719
is telling us to do all of
these things to enter heaven, like he's

2533
03:38:18,719 --> 03:38:22,840
giving us specific commandments. And then
when I speak to Muslims, they also

2534
03:38:22,879 --> 03:38:26,760
say like, oh, this book
is just it's a book about everything in

2535
03:38:26,879 --> 03:38:31,040
life, and you know, Christ, he's leaving you. How to say,

2536
03:38:31,879 --> 03:38:35,959
he's leaving you without knowledge, He's
leaving you without you just don't know

2537
03:38:37,040 --> 03:38:37,879
what to do, et cetera.
I want you, I want to know

2538
03:38:37,920 --> 03:38:41,520
what you think about that. Well, first of all, I would say

2539
03:38:41,600 --> 03:38:46,600
that the Bible does give you things
to do, so that's not there's a

2540
03:38:46,680 --> 03:38:50,840
false priv launch there. Yeah,
yeah, I understand I forgot to include

2541
03:38:50,879 --> 03:38:56,840
that, but I just wanted to
know that specific idea on gaining the salvation

2542
03:38:58,040 --> 03:39:01,760
through Christ's crucifixion. Well, that's
part of the story, though that's not

2543
03:39:01,840 --> 03:39:05,639
all there is to it. So
there's the other elements of it, which

2544
03:39:05,719 --> 03:39:11,719
include explaining and fulfilling all these old
testaments and prophecies. So I would highly

2545
03:39:11,840 --> 03:39:16,360
contend with the claim that Islam is
a more rational approach because Islam claims to

2546
03:39:16,479 --> 03:39:20,840
be in continuity with the Old Testament, and it is not. In fact,

2547
03:39:20,879 --> 03:39:26,879
it constantly contradicts the Old Testament.
So Islam is not consistent with the

2548
03:39:26,920 --> 03:39:30,360
Old Testament. I did a whole
debate with Daniel Hoikikachu on that very point.

2549
03:39:30,360 --> 03:39:33,000
I would recommend go watch that debate
to see that fleshed out. But

2550
03:39:33,360 --> 03:39:41,920
how can I check the claims of
the Koran against prior revelation If the claims

2551
03:39:41,920 --> 03:39:46,159
of the Quran then say that the
prior revelation is full of contradictions and errors.

2552
03:39:46,239 --> 03:39:50,040
You see how this becomes an arbitrary
circle. So it's an impossible task.

2553
03:39:50,319 --> 03:39:54,840
If I'm a seventh century Jew,
Christian juror Christian hearing the claims of

2554
03:39:54,840 --> 03:39:58,319
the Quran, that I'm supposed to
check these new revelations against the previous revelation.

2555
03:40:00,040 --> 03:40:03,200
Then when I go to the previous
revelation, nowadays, all the Muslims

2556
03:40:03,200 --> 03:40:05,040
say, oh, but it's all
corrupt. Any text that shows up as

2557
03:40:05,079 --> 03:40:11,040
a contradiction to the Kuranic claims are
now arbitrarily corrupted texts. So it's a

2558
03:40:11,120 --> 03:40:16,079
totally arbitrary you know, move the
goalpost position. So I contend I totally

2559
03:40:16,159 --> 03:40:18,920
reject the idea that the Koran is
actually rational at all. If you read

2560
03:40:20,239 --> 03:40:24,479
Gabriel site Reynolds's book for example,
that I covered in the debate with Daniel

2561
03:40:24,520 --> 03:40:28,440
Likigachu, I mean, he points
out at least twelve examples where the Quran

2562
03:40:30,159 --> 03:40:37,120
totally jumbles up the previous biblical narratives
in about twelve different cases. Okay,

2563
03:40:37,159 --> 03:40:41,000
so you basically think that it's just
like some ad hoc claim that the Bible's

2564
03:40:41,079 --> 03:40:45,440
corrupt, but there's no root beat
for that at all. I'm saying that

2565
03:40:45,559 --> 03:40:48,360
I don't even have to go into
whether that is the case or not.

2566
03:40:48,760 --> 03:40:52,760
If the Qoran tells me to check
the claims of the Koran against prior revelation,

2567
03:40:54,239 --> 03:40:56,680
and then when I go to prior
revelation, every Muslim says that's all

2568
03:40:56,760 --> 03:41:01,399
corrupted and you can't do that.
That's nonsense. But when they speak about

2569
03:41:01,399 --> 03:41:05,239
the Injin, are they talking specifically
about the Gospel in the in the No,

2570
03:41:05,559 --> 03:41:09,920
they don't even think they mistaken They
thought that it was a book.

2571
03:41:11,840 --> 03:41:15,440
Oh you see, wow, that's
crazy. Yeah, there's all kinds of

2572
03:41:15,479 --> 03:41:18,680
stupid things. I mean, it's
Islam as go read the fart hadiths.

2573
03:41:18,719 --> 03:41:20,959
Those are my favorite. So there's
at least two or three fart had eaths

2574
03:41:22,040 --> 03:41:24,559
that they have to believe. I
mean, if you want to see how

2575
03:41:24,559 --> 03:41:28,399
silly it is, nad last one
here, nod. What's up, man,

2576
03:41:31,600 --> 03:41:39,520
I'm not joking about the fart heads. Those are real. You gotta

2577
03:41:39,559 --> 03:41:52,079
I mute, man, Hello,
sir. I just want to hope you

2578
03:41:52,200 --> 03:41:58,920
have a blessed feast of annunciation and
of a great lamp. And uh,

2579
03:42:00,120 --> 03:42:03,559
I don't know if this is part
of the topic. Uh, maybe it's

2580
03:42:03,879 --> 03:42:07,479
a bit of a dumb question,
but like, what do you think is

2581
03:42:07,600 --> 03:42:20,239
the historical reason for all this natural
and natural theology and all this ecumenism that

2582
03:42:20,360 --> 03:42:28,479
started in this uh, in this
nostra or something like where, well,

2583
03:42:28,079 --> 03:42:33,559
well, natural theology goes back a
lot older than it's just the easiest thing

2584
03:42:33,639 --> 03:42:37,440
to point to in Roman Catholic you
know, dogmatic pronouncements to illustrate the point.

2585
03:42:37,559 --> 03:42:45,000
But I mean Thomas the Roman Catholic
Church, as in like pre schism.

2586
03:42:48,440 --> 03:42:54,760
You cut out, dude, I
can't hear you anymore. But so

2587
03:42:54,879 --> 03:43:01,360
I think that the real, the
real basis is Hill philosophy, right,

2588
03:43:01,520 --> 03:43:03,600
and Hellenic philosophy can be good,
it can be bad, it can have

2589
03:43:03,680 --> 03:43:13,959
insights. But I think the fundamental
source of natural theologies. Mistakes would relate

2590
03:43:13,159 --> 03:43:22,159
to a temptation on the part of
people in in early a lot of centuries

2591
03:43:22,760 --> 03:43:33,920
to give too much love and appreciation
to humanistic Greek Hellenic philosophy. So that's

2592
03:43:33,959 --> 03:43:39,360
the real source of it. In
my estimation. One example of this might

2593
03:43:39,479 --> 03:43:46,680
be the early logos apologists. And
you'll notice they pretty much fell away,

2594
03:43:46,840 --> 03:43:52,959
like they became weirdos. So you
had these guys early on who were converts

2595
03:43:54,239 --> 03:43:58,879
in the first and second century,
and I'm just using them as an example.

2596
03:43:58,959 --> 03:44:07,520
They're not all bad, but uh
like Tation is one example the logos

2597
03:44:07,520 --> 03:44:15,600
apologists. Now this is pulling up
a bunch of stupid evangelical stuff. That's

2598
03:44:15,600 --> 03:44:30,079
not what I'm looking for. Mm
hm. So I mean, I guess

2599
03:44:30,120 --> 03:44:33,760
you could. You could say that
Aaron As and Justin mart are examples of

2600
03:44:33,959 --> 03:44:39,280
logos apologetics. But uh Tation,
for example, is one of the early

2601
03:44:41,159 --> 03:44:50,920
logos apologists who went bad like he
we went crazy. If I remember Crevitation

2602
03:44:52,079 --> 03:44:58,600
the Assyrian uh he his most influent
influential work was the dietesteron harmony the Gospels.

2603
03:44:58,760 --> 03:45:01,959
Well, let's see, he got
super into Yeah, he was a

2604
03:45:03,000 --> 03:45:07,479
pupil of Justin Martivez, right like
Justin Tasin opened up a Christian school in

2605
03:45:07,639 --> 03:45:18,239
Rome, but he ended up going
off into Gnosticism with his obsession with philosophy.

2606
03:45:18,399 --> 03:45:24,159
Also Clement of Alexander. I forgot
Clement of Alexandria, who oddly enough

2607
03:45:24,399 --> 03:45:26,280
is a saint in the Roman Catholic
Church but not in the Orthodox Church.

2608
03:45:31,200 --> 03:45:37,280
Clement also has a hyper obsession with
Hellenic philosophy, this too much, so

2609
03:45:39,120 --> 03:45:43,920
I think that's the roots of it, and so it's always kind of there.

2610
03:45:43,360 --> 03:45:48,520
And I agree with the thesis that
most of the seven Ecumenical Councils are

2611
03:45:50,399 --> 03:45:58,159
rebutting some dialectical Hellenic assumption. So
whether it's Eunomianism, Marcianism, because if

2612
03:45:58,200 --> 03:46:03,799
you read the rotic Alwich thesis,
he actually points out Marciano is one of

2613
03:46:03,840 --> 03:46:11,280
the early proponents of a strict view
of absolute divine simplicity. Whether it's origin

2614
03:46:11,319 --> 03:46:20,319
and originism, which is super duper
Hellenic philosophy, neoplatonic veneir, Christianity,

2615
03:46:20,399 --> 03:46:24,360
Neoplatonism with a Christian venir is what
Origanism is all the way up until the

2616
03:46:24,479 --> 03:46:31,239
Christological disputes with even severus of Antioch, who has a lot of neoplatonic presuppositions

2617
03:46:31,239 --> 03:46:35,920
as well in his dialectics. I
think that all of this, all these

2618
03:46:35,040 --> 03:46:43,639
errors are some form of Hellenic dialectical
philosophy. That's the commonality that the Seven

2619
03:46:43,680 --> 03:46:48,280
Ecumenical Councils are opposing, even up
into Iconiclism, which most people don't know

2620
03:46:48,319 --> 03:46:54,639
that Iconiclasm was neoplatonic in its motivations
and they were relying on origin actually,

2621
03:46:56,040 --> 03:47:03,680
So that would to me, would
suggest that the medieval acceptance and kind of

2622
03:47:05,719 --> 03:47:16,760
fascination with with what becomes natural theology
and reasoning about God, apart from any

2623
03:47:16,840 --> 03:47:20,719
reference to divine revelation, even though
it might have had at times good motivations,

2624
03:47:22,000 --> 03:47:24,680
it ultimately ends up being bankrupt because
it's kind of a temptation where people

2625
03:47:24,719 --> 03:47:28,440
more and more want to move away
from divine revelation and more and more and

2626
03:47:28,559 --> 03:47:35,799
more kind of rely on autonomous reasoning. So that's what I think is the

2627
03:47:35,840 --> 03:47:41,479
real danger there. And then what
we get is these kinds of moves like

2628
03:47:41,639 --> 03:47:46,600
Nostritate does, where it's like,
well, we're all saying the same thing,

2629
03:47:46,680 --> 03:47:54,200
aren't we. I mean, when
Marcus Aurelia says logos. That's the

2630
03:47:54,239 --> 03:47:56,639
same thing that John Want's talking about, isn't it. It's the same word

2631
03:47:56,799 --> 03:48:03,200
right, Well, so it's the
same word, doesn't mean it's the same

2632
03:48:03,280 --> 03:48:05,239
thing. I mean when I talk
to him Mormon and he says I believe

2633
03:48:05,239 --> 03:48:09,680
in Jesus and the Father and the
Holy Spirit, he believes something totally different

2634
03:48:09,719 --> 03:48:11,360
than me, even though it's the
same words. This is really kind of

2635
03:48:11,520 --> 03:48:18,479
obvious, isn't it. Anyway?
All Right, thank you guys for support

2636
03:48:18,559 --> 03:48:22,879
tonight. Follow me on X right
here as you see, that's my profile.

2637
03:48:24,719 --> 03:48:26,719
I'm trying to get up to one
hundred thousand, so we're at sixty

2638
03:48:26,799 --> 03:48:33,920
four sixty five. I feel like
I'm my X exposure is kind of like

2639
03:48:33,040 --> 03:48:37,399
not doing that great lately. So
if you would support me and follow me

2640
03:48:37,440 --> 03:48:41,600
their own X if your own X
and heading over to rockfin, which is

2641
03:48:41,639 --> 03:48:45,360
a great free speech based platform as
well. My channel is over here at

2642
03:48:45,479 --> 03:48:48,799
Rockfinn Jay Dyer. I do have
unique stuff on Rockfin, have unique stuff

2643
03:48:48,799 --> 03:48:54,559
on my website for the member section, a lot of the kind of spicier

2644
03:48:54,639 --> 03:48:58,239
stuff. For example, people said, what about the event in Russia?

2645
03:48:58,280 --> 03:49:01,719
Did you talk about that? Yes? Right here? Russia big nine event,

2646
03:49:03,000 --> 03:49:09,600
Alex Jones, Jack Prosobeck Me go
read that or watch that. Excuse

2647
03:49:09,639 --> 03:49:13,799
me also covered it with Patrick Kenningson
and Syrian Girl. You can see this

2648
03:49:15,479 --> 03:49:18,680
new podcast that we have right here
for members with the comedian Leonardo Joney.

2649
03:49:18,719 --> 03:49:24,920
We had a great discussion about cancel
culture here for members. It'll be public

2650
03:49:24,680 --> 03:49:26,559
eventually, but if you want to
go ahead and support me and watch it

2651
03:49:26,600 --> 03:49:30,600
there rock Fan right there, Jdi
rock Fan. That's in the show description

2652
03:49:30,680 --> 03:49:33,479
as well. If you want to
support Father again and Ias, you can

2653
03:49:33,520 --> 03:49:39,239
also support him by going to Lore
Coffee and this is the link right here

2654
03:49:39,040 --> 03:49:43,760
from an Orthodox coffee maker, Lor
Coffee. You can support them and FDA

2655
03:49:43,920 --> 03:49:46,719
and myself right there in that link
if you want to get some straight up

2656
03:49:46,840 --> 03:49:50,600
Orthodox coffee. Otherwise, everybody,
have a great night, and remember tomorrow

2657
03:49:50,639 --> 03:49:56,000
we'll be back with Tristan covering Dune
and Done Too. Tristan says he enjoyed

2658
03:49:56,000 --> 03:49:56,799
it, so we're going to have
a