1 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:26,960 This is Jonathan Peshel. Welcome to the symbolic world. Hello everyone, It 2 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,879 is my great joy to be back with Aiden Hart to discuss a wonderful image 3 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:36,320 that he's designings. Those that have paid attention to my channel have seen many 4 00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:43,200 discussions with Aiden. His insight into iconography also his own mastery of the skills 5 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,600 makes them really one of the modern masters of iconography, but also of understanding 6 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,200 the role and the symbolism and icons. And he is working on a beautiful 7 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:58,719 new image of the heavenly Jerusalem and its relationship to creation. And in some 8 00:00:58,759 --> 00:01:03,560 ways it's very in to the images of everything that I've developed, you know, 9 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,439 with the with the with the mountain and the Crucifixion or the flood, 10 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:11,319 and it really goes to show how you can show the same universal truth through 11 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,560 different prisms. And so I really want to explore this image with him and 12 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,640 see how he came to develop it the way he did. And so Aiden, 13 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,040 thanks for thanks for talking to me about this Jonathan. And so what 14 00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:27,040 is that? What is the impetus? Let me show the image first of 15 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:32,680 all, and then we can we can we can talk about it. Tell 16 00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:36,159 us a bit about what the impetus was for this image, Like what what 17 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,519 prompted it? Yeah? Thanks Tonovan. I got an email from an Orthodox 18 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,599 marine bologist. He's a professor at Point Lobus University in the West Coast of 19 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:53,719 America, and being a marine bologist, he was reinterested and somehow bringing together 20 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,640 evolutionary theory, obviously in the sense of of an I f stick one, 21 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,319 but the sense of a gradual creation, let's say, with Christ with Orthodox 22 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:12,879 theology. So it's quite an exciting project. Beside studied moology at university myself, 23 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:21,919 and I wanted to bring together scientific discovery, but an emphasis on Christ 24 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,360 is the Tellos twice as the beginning and the middle in the end. So 25 00:02:25,439 --> 00:02:30,439 as a real challenge, I somehow wanted to bring together Heaven and Earth, 26 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:36,520 acid weare and this movement towards the New Jerusalem. So basically the commission came 27 00:02:36,599 --> 00:02:40,639 from Andrew and he wanted it to be used as a point of discussion and 28 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:45,639 teaching. Really it's big. It's going to be roughly two meters or something 29 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,879 like that, perhaps traveling around a bit. Probably will use it in England 30 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:55,960 for about six months before we send it over, So it's going to be 31 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,800 a point of discussion. Really there's already a orthodox sort of creation group, 32 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:07,199 I think by discussing it there. So my main influence has been obviously the 33 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,759 New Jerusalem, the Book of Revelation, but also Maximus the Confessor in the 34 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:15,599 sense it's it's trying to indicate something of Saint Maximus's teaching and an icon. 35 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,840 All right, So let's look at some of the elements. I mean, 36 00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:23,960 I was really I find it really beautiful because what I see in the image 37 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:30,439 in some ways it's taking this image of the cosmos really from from an apocalyptic 38 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:37,560 vision. And so the image of the heavenly Jerusalem is the is the top 39 00:03:37,719 --> 00:03:40,719 of the world. It's something like the source of reality. Christ is in 40 00:03:40,759 --> 00:03:46,120 the center. He you know, he becomes in some ways the tree of 41 00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:49,520 life, the middle of the garden, and the waters are flowing down from 42 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:53,919 him. So tell us a bit about some of the choices that you made 43 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,800 in the in the image, and we can start at the top. Yeah, 44 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,240 probably the best place beginning is the end. Really, we can only 45 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:04,120 understand the beginning and the light of the end to which God is direct to 46 00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:09,719 get So, first of all, the image itself is actually three by two 47 00:04:09,719 --> 00:04:13,759 in proportions, which means that the bottom half is a square, the bottom 48 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,199 two third rather is a square, and the top is a dome. And 49 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,639 Christ is situated in the middle of the dome, the circle at the top, 50 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,439 but also is the middle of the top of the square. And four 51 00:04:25,519 --> 00:04:30,560 sided squares the symbol of many cultures of the created world, the four elements, 52 00:04:30,639 --> 00:04:34,519 the four points of the compass. So Christ is at the heart of 53 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:40,319 that. He's the log offs God become flesh. So it begins and ends 54 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,680 there that the course, as you see around him, is the new Jerusalem, 55 00:04:45,399 --> 00:04:49,879 and it's a new Jerusalem which includes the whole of creation. What struck 56 00:04:49,959 --> 00:04:56,600 me about Maximus is teaching compared to say, with din with Dinysius Theopigide, 57 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,240 it's so you're sort of leaving behind mattterly, we end up just with of 58 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:06,079 pure ideas. But Maximus, all the material symbols are taken up and a 59 00:05:06,319 --> 00:05:12,759 part of the end they're lot sort of spat out as this thing. So 60 00:05:13,879 --> 00:05:17,000 that's why I've got sort of the divine things that the angelic realm at the 61 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,560 top, the Mother of God together with plants, the mineral kingdom and all 62 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:27,000 that. So that's a starting point. Really wanted it all culminating in Christ 63 00:05:27,079 --> 00:05:31,279 and behind Christ himself. Of course, you've got this in microcosm often talked 64 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,519 about the factual nature. So the whole icon is a square united with a 65 00:05:36,639 --> 00:05:43,879 circle. And behind Christ again you've got a circle turned as a diamond. 66 00:05:44,519 --> 00:05:47,759 Combined with the circle is divinity. So Christ is fully god fully man. 67 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:55,680 But creation is also created by nature. It's material by nature, but it's 68 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:01,120 called to be united to God by grace. All three really got this square 69 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:03,920 united with the circle. Well, another way to put it is the cross 70 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:09,639 runs for everything vertical, you know what's on top. Yeah, it's amazing, 71 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,279 I mean because in some ways it's the symbolism of the church itself with 72 00:06:13,399 --> 00:06:16,439 the dome and the square. But it's also just an arch, you know, 73 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,279 like to see how universe of this symbolism. You know, the arch 74 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:26,360 of a of a of a window has the same structure as the church itself. 75 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,480 It's this little it's this beautiful kind of fractal symbolism that comes in. 76 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:35,480 And so I'm curious, why did you put the virgin up at the top 77 00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:40,399 of the image or or in the in the top part of the image. 78 00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:46,040 What? What? What was your what was your thinking there? Yeah, 79 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:51,000 in the well a whole lot of things really that the Virgin is like the 80 00:06:51,079 --> 00:06:55,959 microcosm of the whole Church. You know, God became man in here, 81 00:06:56,079 --> 00:07:02,680 so in herself she sees like a symbol fruition of the Church. So Christ, 82 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,879 in this humility humblesome himself to raise us up. So Christ is in 83 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,920 the center. So even though it's not the highest, he's in the center. 84 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,680 So he's he's the log offs the heart of everything. But he wants 85 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,839 to sort of exult the church, and that's symbolized in the Virgin. I 86 00:07:18,839 --> 00:07:23,600 actually had a bit smaller originally, but the commissioners asked if I could make 87 00:07:23,639 --> 00:07:29,720 her larger, So all along I was sort of under balance. Christ is 88 00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:32,160 God here for the top. But on the other hand, Christ is God 89 00:07:32,199 --> 00:07:38,519 in the humility, you're into his creation and wraps it around himself. He's 90 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,680 happy, as it were, to lower himself to transfigure, transfigure us. 91 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:48,160 Yeah, and there's also like an incarnational movement if you follow from the top 92 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:51,759 and the glory of God here at the top, and then you have this 93 00:07:51,959 --> 00:07:56,839 descent of God into the world as a seed, you know, in the 94 00:07:56,959 --> 00:08:03,319 Virgin, and then fully revealed in the end, you know, of Christ 95 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,639 in the center of the whole story. So I think it works really well. 96 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,439 And it also suggests the east and the apse of the church, with 97 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:15,319 the Mother of God there and at the you know kind of indeed, if 98 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:16,360 you were standing in the church, that what you would see, right, 99 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,439 you would see her be back there, and then above you you would see 100 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,240 Christ. And so there's this reflection of that structure in the in the image 101 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,600 itself, and of course the it'll bees are dark. At the very top, 102 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:33,120 you've got this single sphere, but three problems coming out, so that 103 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,919 that is the Holy Trinity, three at one. So again we go through 104 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,360 Christ to the Father and through the Holy Spirit and the same. So everything 105 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:48,759 comes from the Holy Trinity at the top and moves toward the Holy Trinity at 106 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:54,679 the top. So the horizontal gradually gets taken up into the vertical. So 107 00:08:54,720 --> 00:09:01,799 that's why if you go down to the bottom, I strug thing to unite 108 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:07,360 what's called Kronos clock time with KOs, which is more sort of divine and 109 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,840 vertical. So I decided to have the six days of creation and bands and 110 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:15,559 at the bottom just slightly curved. But as you go up, the curve 111 00:09:15,639 --> 00:09:20,960 gets steep and until ultimately it comes to a point toward Christ, so that 112 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,399 at the bottom one starts with the flat disordered I said, where the world 113 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,120 is that form and void? And then gradually we rise up to high water. 114 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,519 But yeah, I hadn't thought of that when I saw it at the 115 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,279 outset, because I was wondering, why do you have these kind of tears 116 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,799 going up and these circles. But now I can clearly see that in some 117 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,480 ways it's the dome of Heaven that is flattening itself out to become the Earth. 118 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,159 And the opposite is true, which is flat Earth is kind of moving 119 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:56,679 into this this this heavenly shape. That's amazing. Yeah, and the the 120 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,679 the gradual sense of creation stops from the out comes toward the inside. So 121 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:05,039 Andrew, you want to told me that the likely phases of the development of 122 00:10:05,039 --> 00:10:09,080 the created world. So you've got large and extinct creatures on the left and 123 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,799 the right, and graduates you move forward, you come to more recent creatures. 124 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:20,480 So you've got this chonos and horizontal being consummated in the divine time. 125 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,840 Okay, so that's why you have the like dinosaurs on the outside. I 126 00:10:26,879 --> 00:10:28,559 was like, why what are the dinosaurs doing there? I guess it makes 127 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,519 sense that they would be on the outside for sure. So in some ways 128 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:37,600 it's like this movement into into our experience or like, you know, the 129 00:10:37,639 --> 00:10:43,759 world in which we in which we live, and Christ has sort of overcome 130 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:46,840 death, not just in the sense of our physical death, but death in 131 00:10:46,919 --> 00:10:54,840 terms of separation, so that in some sublime and comprehensible way in Christ or 132 00:10:54,919 --> 00:10:58,759 extinct animals to sort of gathered together, notts, gathered together into the present. 133 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:03,720 So so that extinct in another sense in Christ, they're not. Some 134 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:09,879 people ask me why I've got a hedge around Paradise. It's initially just because 135 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:16,000 the word paradise is a Persian word meaning a walled park where the emperor would 136 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,120 enjoy time with his family and friends. So is the sense of distinction between 137 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:26,639 Paradise, which is planted by God initially, and the thickened world wild world 138 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,519 around. So the way I see it is that God planted the gardeners like 139 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,399 an icon with how he wanted us, as the prophets, priests and kings 140 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:39,960 and queens of the world, to gradually expand the wars of Paradise to make 141 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,960 the whole universe of Paradise. So this distinction between Paradise and the rest of 142 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,000 the world is important, not to create a sense of sacred and profane, 143 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,039 but the opposite that that's the beginning, as it were, and gradually it's 144 00:11:54,039 --> 00:11:58,440 re acted correctly, which of course we didn't those hedges, as it would 145 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:03,000 expanded the whole world a garden city. Basically, Yeah, I think, 146 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,960 I mean, I think your insight also to make a wall that is vegetable, 147 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,320 like a vegetable wall, like a you know, an organic wall, 148 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,840 and then have the heavenly Jerusalem being this stone wall. I think it's intuitively 149 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,080 very right. It just feels right, like because you feel that there is 150 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:24,039 a there was a border, there was a limit to the garden, like 151 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,639 you said, that was meant to be expanded, but that that limit would 152 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:30,480 not have you know, would not have been the same type of limit that 153 00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:33,919 would be found in the city. So I really think it's a Intuitively, 154 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,679 it's a it's a very strong idea to have used the hedge. And also 155 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:43,200 because gardens were used to seeing hedges as as limits in gardens, it's but 156 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,240 I've never seen that ever, Like I don't think I've ever seen that represented 157 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:50,960 that way, So I think it's a great insight on your part. Tell 158 00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:54,799 us a bit about these this vertical down here, like so you have the 159 00:12:54,879 --> 00:12:58,600 cross and then you have these two trees I imagine the Tree of Life and 160 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,159 the Tree of Knowledge maybe, but tell us a bit about how your decisions 161 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,080 on those. Yeah, I'd always been perplexed in a why God should put 162 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:11,679 this tree and knowledge of good and evil there? Often Protestant writers have said 163 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,600 all this just to sort of test us, but it didn't seem to sort 164 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:18,720 of fit with my understanding of God that he put something they had test us. 165 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:24,600 So I was really fascinated when Efram wrote that the tree of knowledge and 166 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:30,159 good and evil can be understood as the created world. So if we Adam 167 00:13:30,159 --> 00:13:35,360 and Eve had received it with thanksgiving, then it would have been knowledge of 168 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:37,200 good. In other words, we wouldn't just then have just seen that there's 169 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,240 a nice fruit. I would have seen that as an expression of God's love, 170 00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:46,960 so we would have received it eucharistically. But if we just grabbed it 171 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,759 because it's just nice to taste and turned up back on God, then it 172 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,240 become knowledge of evil. So that that really made sense to me. You 173 00:13:54,320 --> 00:14:00,919 know, God, in his humility wanted to create something the sense from which 174 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,120 he is absent, which is our free will. I given you everything. 175 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,480 I'm going to stand back now and I want you to be grown ups to 176 00:14:09,039 --> 00:14:13,639 live properly. You can live improperly if you want. That's your feedom So 177 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,159 you've got the tree of knowledgical and level there which which we botched it up 178 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:22,759 with. So that's why the Beneva then walking down hill beside clothed now. 179 00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:28,919 But so Christ becomes the tree. Of course, the word ross in Greek 180 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,159 is stavross, but also selaw, which can be tree and wood of the 181 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,000 cross at the same time. So above that is the tree of knowledge of 182 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:43,600 life. And I've made at three. This is the tree of life has 183 00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:46,639 got himself the Trinity. And the three colors I've used are those used in 184 00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:50,879 the rubulop prinity. I cut the sort of the pink and the red and 185 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:54,480 the green, the father and the left, the son of the middle expirt 186 00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:58,440 on the right. And then of course you got the cross. And this 187 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,200 is a dual cross. It won't just be a wooden cross, it will 188 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:09,320 be a glorious cross. So Christ enters our fallen world. And as the 189 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,080 tree of life becomes dead, becomes the cross the tree of death, and 190 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,320 that becomes the tree of life. And I said that the sign of the 191 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,360 Son of Man will appear in the heavens before I return. So this is 192 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:28,039 often depicted as a jewel cross of earlier praving mosaics. So I said, 193 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:33,320 the cross of Death becomes the coming of the Kingdom and the future. So 194 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,159 that's why it's going to be a jewel cross. And as you mentioned earlier, 195 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,440 the four rivers come from the Cross, the tree of life and Christ 196 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,679 above, because it's not the cross itself, it's Christ on the cross. 197 00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:50,519 There is the source of the river. So you've got this four rivers there. 198 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,879 Yeah. I like the idea that because we're used that we see this 199 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:58,440 image, you know, in It's funny how you can see how at some 200 00:15:58,519 --> 00:16:03,399 point the iconographic intuition is just becomes a language because we're used to seeing in 201 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,519 the image of the Last Judgment, we're used to seeing fire come from under 202 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:12,200 the feet of Christ. And then here because you're showing the order of creation 203 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,480 rather than the Judgment per se, it's still an apocalyptic image, but it's 204 00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:22,480 it's a powerful insight to have the water which flows from from Christ through the 205 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:26,440 frost, through the trees, with all the images that we have of you 206 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,600 know, Christ's side being pierced and the water flowing that that was the water 207 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:37,120 paradise, all these images. It's I really love I really love it because 208 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,240 it's completely new. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this, But 209 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,799 it is at the same time completely traditional because all the associations, if you 210 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:48,120 know them, they come, they appear right away. It shows you how 211 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:53,679 there's all this room within the iconographic language if you do it with the right 212 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,919 attention to tradition but also deep understanding of it that's not just wrote copying that 213 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,200 you can come up with new images that immediately strike us as right even though 214 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,759 we've never seen them before. And so I really love that the image of 215 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:14,599 the water is coming down. I am surprised that you don't have four. 216 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:21,279 You have like three rivers, well, but there are actually four and now 217 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,880 is four? How is that? I think? Actually does it work? 218 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,480 Now? I think basically you've got spin Wasson's designed, and I think I 219 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:33,960 think the river at the top is the fourth bomb. Okay, so this 220 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,559 would be the one and then these would be So that's how you see it, 221 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:41,319 like that one and then and then three more. Yeah, and you 222 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,680 notice that the water goes uphill on either side. You got this funny sort 223 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,000 of yeah, yeah, I worrying about that. So Bishop calistos One said 224 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,440 that Christ comes to us out of the future as well as out of the 225 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,759 past and in the present. It's one reason why we face east. We're 226 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:03,559 sort of moving toward the right in the sun that Christ. And I'm fascinated 227 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:07,319 by the Roman apses, the early Roman apses. A lot of apses have 228 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,680 been asked to Fesca have been inspired by this, so giving the image of 229 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,160 Christ there of course in the apps. But behind you have brightly colored clouds, 230 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,160 normally which a sunrise colored cloud. So on the one hand, you're 231 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,920 looking at Christ present here as we worship, but on the other hand we're 232 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:30,519 looking at Christ coming in the future. So time goes forward and backwards in 233 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:33,039 God. So I wanted the river to get up here as it where as 234 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:36,680 well as down with Helt, just to sort of play with that sense of 235 00:18:36,799 --> 00:18:40,720 the elasticity of time in Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I 236 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,039 mean there's also a way in which you know, we know that the water 237 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,480 goes up. I mean, this is a weird thing. Like we know 238 00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:52,240 that there's a cycle of water, and there's this relationship between heavenly water and 239 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:59,759 earthly water in Genesis Genesis one. But visually, what's interesting about it is 240 00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:04,960 it as this, you know, it is we have a structure that's very 241 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:08,720 very prime primal, and I don't know to what extent we can explain it, 242 00:19:08,759 --> 00:19:11,400 but there's a structure you see in iconography, and you see it, 243 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:17,039 you see the central pillar across and then two things on the side that are 244 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,880 that are doing something like that, whether it's the two snakes on the Krozier, 245 00:19:21,279 --> 00:19:23,880 you know, whether it is sometimes it's sometimes foliage that will be coming 246 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,599 back up on the two sides. So there's this deep insight about that this 247 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:33,759 being right. And so you know, even if even even when I looked 248 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:37,359 at it and I didn't know what your intention was, it didn't matter, 249 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,559 because it feels right, even structural, even if I don't totally understand the 250 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:47,319 meaning, there's something about it which I recognize as being something like the center 251 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,960 and then these two aspects that are you know, coming up to praise, 252 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:55,000 coming up to react, coming up to even attack sometimes like it could be 253 00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:57,039 different, different versions of it, but it doesn't. It really is the 254 00:19:57,039 --> 00:20:03,799 center and these two sides. So yeah, I thought it looked intuitively right. 255 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,960 And so the other part which is really interesting to me and I love, 256 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:15,640 is that in some ways you have the creation of the physical cosmos at 257 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:21,119 the bottom of the image in some ways because it's the most material. And 258 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:29,799 so you have the six days of creation here moving up towards towards Eden and 259 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,279 then up towards the final revelation. So you have this idea in some ways 260 00:20:33,319 --> 00:20:38,119 of the you know, the this relationship of the different heavens. So you 261 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:44,319 have the fear moment kind of under the garden of Eden, which is which 262 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,119 just sounds a little weird, but maybe you can tell us a little bit 263 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:52,839 about about those decisions. Yeah, So when I became Orthodox forty years ago, 264 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,880 I remember from my parish priest, father Eve Dubar, reminding me the 265 00:20:57,279 --> 00:21:02,880 Sabbath is actually the Saturday and the Sunday's the eighth day. And it got 266 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,759 fascinated by this concept of the eighth day, which has joined to the previous 267 00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:11,480 seven days the creation. But the eighth theare is also called the first day 268 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,759 of eternity, after which they know other days. So at the bottom you've 269 00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:19,440 got these different layers gradually getting steeper in the middle, so that you come 270 00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:23,079 to seven and the seventh day, not one, two, three, four, 271 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:26,720 five, six, seven. Yeah, so Adam and Eve is sort 272 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,279 of walking down the sixth day. Then you got this bit of seventh there, 273 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,960 but then everything above the top river is the eighth day. So I 274 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:40,880 wanted that sort of movement, that the progressive movement upwards, and a bit 275 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,480 of an aside but relevant. Nonetheless, one method I use for painting is 276 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:51,799 to do a sort of puddly, especially if I'm doing garments and ground, 277 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,440 a rather messy puddle, and then gradually add more detail, so the garments, 278 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,839 for example, might end up with fact crisp highlights. So this made 279 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:08,240 me think that creation and movement toward crisis, the talos isn't leaving chaos behind, 280 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,680 replacing it just to pure orders. You're got pure order, You've got 281 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:18,319 chaos below, bubbling, bubbling up all sorts of potentiality. So instead of 282 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,359 seeing it horizontally moving from chaos to order with no chaos, I thought vertically 283 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:29,039 stacking up. And it happens like that of course in nature that you have 284 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,119 mutations happening all the time, the sort of chaos and mutations, and once 285 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,799 in a while one mutation helps you adapt better. Without that chaotic mutation, 286 00:22:38,279 --> 00:22:45,640 you wouldn't have the opportunity to select the best to adapt better to one situation. 287 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,640 So that fascinated me. So you've got this rather sort of chaotic water. 288 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,200 There's some order to it being gradually moving up that. Nonetheless, the 289 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:59,160 basis is this sort of I would think of this chaos of the physical world 290 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,920 as the freedom that God has given to the inanimate world peculiar and I, 291 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:07,559 as human beings, have a free choice certain the way that water doesn't. 292 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:12,480 But God has given water a certain freedom through this chaos. So at every 293 00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:17,359 point God, in this humility, gives things a certain freedom according to their 294 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,079 nature. Yeah, I think I think the insight is quite is quite right. 295 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,519 And you know, I always say that the tohubohu, you know, 296 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:29,839 the the prime order waters of creation, they're still there. They're not that 297 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,799 God didn't remove them. He basically pulled creation out of out of them, 298 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,240 but they're still there, you know, as this potentiality at the bottom of 299 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:41,200 the world, out of which like you said, possibility emerges, and then 300 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:45,440 and then we we cast light on those possibilities, and we select them, 301 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:48,440 and we choose them, and then we we tend them, you could say, 302 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,200 in order to make them thriving. So no, I think I think 303 00:23:52,279 --> 00:24:00,480 the basic structure is intuitively quite quite right. I really enjoy The other thing 304 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:03,920 that surprised me, though, is that I would have if I had done 305 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,920 this, I would have put I would have flipped this. I would have 306 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,880 put the sun on this side and I would have put the kind of nighttime 307 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,559 on the other side, just because I'm used to seeing the sun on the 308 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,519 right hand of Christ, you know, like Adam and Eve and then you 309 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:22,519 see the sun in the moon. That's That's the one thing that that was 310 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:25,400 one of the very very few things that I look at it like I would 311 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,599 have flipped that. But you know, when we look at each other's work, 312 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:30,880 you know, we look at it, you know through the prism of 313 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,640 someone who who who when he sees a beautiful image like this, wishes he 314 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:37,200 I wish I would have been the one to make it. You know, 315 00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:41,559 it's like, oh, this is so I wish I would the one that 316 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,880 made this image. Well, it's still. I mean, I'm still taking 317 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:51,319 an advice. So this is the fairst draft in a way, Andrew got 318 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,400 people to give feedback. But it's interesting that the Hebrew day begins with sunset, 319 00:24:56,839 --> 00:25:00,440 not sunrise. In the Mount Athos, I was for a while we 320 00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:03,839 would set the clocks by the sunset. So there's a movement from darkness toward 321 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,000 light and meeting to read left or right of course, so there is that 322 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,079 aggression from dark to light. And on the left you've got sort of the 323 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:21,279 little speckles there that's like the dust which gradually regulate into the planetary constellations. 324 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:29,440 So that's again a lotic movement left. Now, one thing i'd say that 325 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000 who do you think is to the left and right of Christ? Well my 326 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,799 understanding. You know, it took me a while to think about to realize 327 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,559 what it was. But then when I looked at the way the image was 328 00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:45,079 structured, I think, I really I like it. It's clearly not the 329 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,079 Mother of God and John the Baptist. And then I thought, it's Adam 330 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,119 and Eve. That's it again. Why don't you you flip them up here 331 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,960 so you have them. It's because you wanted to have the virgin and Saint 332 00:25:57,039 --> 00:26:07,119 John the foreigner structure at the top. Yeah, good points. Really remember 333 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,000 why I put them on that way? Yeah, because that because you usually 334 00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:15,839 see Adam at the right side and change in the last judgment. So that's 335 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,920 what That's the thing that threw me off a little bit. I was like, 336 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,960 perhaps to change them over then, Yeah, so that people relate that 337 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:27,160 to the resurrection. Yeah, anstis that and then and the often you see 338 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,200 in the last Judgment you see them kneeling at the altar, uh, you 339 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,559 know, beneath the feet of Christ, and so they have that order. 340 00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:37,720 Yeah. It's a great idea, you know, because it does tell the 341 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:44,160 final story in some ways in a manner that I've never seen told. Because 342 00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:48,599 you know, we represent this idea often, the idea that you're representing here, 343 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,759 we often represent it as the apostles, you know, sitting and ruling 344 00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:56,839 with Christ, that type of imagery. But I think the idea of showing 345 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:02,680 Adam and Eve as a king and a queen in the kingdom, it brings 346 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,440 it all together in terms of creation, right, if we're talking about an 347 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,880 image of creation, I think it's a wonderful insight and quite a bit in 348 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,319 the way that those figures will be dressed. It's a bit difficult from this 349 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,599 tiny scale, but they won't just be king and queen, but also the 350 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,559 prophets, so they have a profit hat. And also that you notice that 351 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,960 they're offering bread and wine. Wondering I didn't catch that, Okay, yeah, 352 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,880 yeah, So this is a symbol of them using creation properly. In 353 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:36,599 other words, they've changed from partaking incorrectly of the created world and are taking 354 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,880 properly, which is to fashion it well, to make good wine and good 355 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,599 bread, but also then offer it to God with thanksgiving, in other words, 356 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:51,000 to see the logos within the logo of all his creation. So they're 357 00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:56,640 being restored to the role as prophet, priest and king, and and above 358 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,559 them of course there representatives as the whole of the church, people of more 359 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:07,000 different races there and different ages male and female. So as with from other 360 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:10,359 of God, that group behind will be a summation of a church. But 361 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,319 also in Adam and Eve, it's a summation of the church, our fall, 362 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,240 theirs because they're being raised. That struck me actually when I first saw 363 00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:22,519 the resurrection icon when I became Orthodox. That's wonderful that the very people out 364 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,079 of the need through whom the whole creation fell. Actually the first to be 365 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:32,799 saved. I thought that God's forgiven us the one has been missed about the 366 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,920 first to be raised. Yeah, and there's already an insight of the cosmic 367 00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:38,559 aspect of what's happening at the resurrection, Like you can you can feel that 368 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:44,160 this is hinting to this cosmic moment that you're showing here, which is in 369 00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:48,359 some ways I really love the idea. It really just all of it comes 370 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,440 together because in the in the Book of Revelation, you have this idea that 371 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,200 you know, the the Kingdom's offer their crowns up, you know, and 372 00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:59,319 also in some ways all their good works are kind of offered up to Christ 373 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:03,000 and using the bread and the wine because people who don't know. But in 374 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,440 the traditional idea of the of the Eucharist was that the people make the bread, 375 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,960 you know, and then they bring it up so that it will then 376 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,839 be consecrated. So it's like an offering of creation. You've talked about this, 377 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,440 I think even with me before. You know, the idea that that 378 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,359 it's this offering of all creation ultimately in the Eucharus is what's going on and 379 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,000 so having that up here in the heavenly Jerusalem is a great is a great 380 00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:33,319 way to create that summation. One of the things too, that when you 381 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,000 mentioned about the seven days, I don't know if you thought about it, 382 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:42,640 but if you have the seventh day being here, that's also the Sabbath in 383 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,519 the sense of the cross, right, because we have this idea that that 384 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:51,559 the holy Sabbath is the day that Christ, the day of Christ's death. 385 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,440 It's the perfect Sabbath. I was rereading parts of Saint Maximan's The Confessor this 386 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:03,000 morning, and I was really taken by how he talks about the cross. 387 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:08,359 He says, all visible things phenomena in the Greek need a cross, and 388 00:30:08,519 --> 00:30:14,319 all intelligible things spiritual things, invisible things need a tomb. And what you 389 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,880 mean by all visible things need to cross maximums are saying that I'm looked at 390 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:26,680 the horizontal part of the cross. God created great diversity and embraces that diversity. 391 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,720 Everything doesn't melt down to big blob that the trees a tree and the 392 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:33,839 rocks of rock, et cetera. But then the vertical You've got to go 393 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,000 down first to the logos at the heart that created all these and then they're 394 00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:44,240 raised up to the heights to return them to the logoss without losing their distinction. 395 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,200 And then it says that the intelligible things, that our spiritual perception of 396 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:52,680 things needs a tomb. In other words, we need to go beyond. 397 00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:56,599 And this is the whole symbol thing, isn't it that God comes to through 398 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,599 symbols. But then there's always something bed on the somethle. So if we 399 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:07,039 cling to the symbol, we die. So we've got to receive that glory 400 00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:10,960 but also take it to the tomb. I think Mark there's another one beyond 401 00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:15,599 even that, and one beyond that. So that was one aspect of his 402 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,000 teaching. I wanted to show that that the sort of centrality of the cross, 403 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:22,599 not just as the death of Christ, but as you've often said that 404 00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:25,559 it's like a tree, isn't it that's rooted in heaven, rooted on earth, 405 00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:33,319 that spreads out, but yet it's one connected to the sky. Then 406 00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:40,799 it will die, definitely, definitely. So so tell us about the plan 407 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,799 for this image. You said it's going to be in a church, and 408 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:47,400 are you going to be document I mean, I made, you'll be documenting 409 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,400 the making of it. It's quite a it's quite an undertaking. Yeah yeah, 410 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:56,279 probably. Actually it will end up in the university. I don't know 411 00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:59,759 if it will be in the chapel, but in the university anyway, but 412 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:02,720 because it'll be painted and egg temperate, and I like to leave egg temperate 413 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:08,279 at least six months before Vannas and you suggested that I have it and use 414 00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:12,039 it in England. In fact, I've been asked to give a talk at 415 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:15,559 the Bath Orthodox Arts Festival again, so hopefully i'll have it really by then 416 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,839 we can take it there. But you know, I quite like to have 417 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,880 it as a as a as a talking point. I mean, it is 418 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,960 an icon in the sense that it's iconographic, but it will be paid. 419 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,880 It on a panel. It won't be paid yeah yeah, okay a two 420 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,079 meter panel. I haven't decided entirely, but it'll be big anyway, yeah, 421 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,680 between one point six to okay, all right, wow, So yeah, 422 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,599 I mean I want to be a talking point. And it's more I 423 00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:46,960 suppose it's more like an illuminated manuscript in the sense that it's not something that 424 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,000 you put in the church to venerate. That's why she could say that if 425 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:54,480 there is one day of the liturgical year, where i'd be appropriate it would 426 00:32:54,519 --> 00:33:00,799 be Subtember the first, which the previous patriarch pointed as the day in creation. 427 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,839 So it is actually part the church calendar, but it's also it is 428 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,720 I think it's a I think that your images is an apocalyptic image. I 429 00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:16,000 think that it's appropriate in that in that sense that it's completely coherent with an 430 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:22,079 image of revelation, which focuses on the summation rather than the judgment. And 431 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,279 so although it's an image that we've never seen before, I think that it 432 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:31,160 fits perfectly well with with with our tradition, you know. And and there 433 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,519 are there are versions of that, like in the West, you have these 434 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,799 types of images that try to show the ontological relationship between Christ and the world. 435 00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:44,720 It's not like there aren't there are many precedents, I think for for 436 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,799 your image. It's just that you bring it together in such a such a 437 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,119 cohesive, such a cohesive way, which in some ways is the thing that 438 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:54,920 that we're that we can do right, that we can we can stand on 439 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,720 the shoulder of giants, as we say, and kind of say, oh, 440 00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:00,279 well, I see these threads coming together, you know, we can 441 00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:06,960 just push it a little further and see how it comes together. The general 442 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,159 there for the arrangement came from an icon all Croatian rejoices, a new a 443 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:15,159 Russian icon. The idea of the arch at the top, and that's really 444 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,440 different in the bottom half, but the sort of the white upper area with 445 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:24,239 the arches that was inspired by that. I wasn't sure how to depict the 446 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:30,320 New Jerusalem, which is a square basically with twelve gates as I came across 447 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:37,039 this image from it's a fresco from Italy painted in ten nineteen. I think 448 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:43,920 San Pietro Almonte and Sibati in Italy, and I think the reason why they've 449 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,719 done it like that is you want everything to be visible. Nothing is hidden, 450 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,840 so this is the only way, really you can get all twelve gates 451 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,719 visible. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's sort of it's sort of a square, 452 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,239 but it's not our bunt all twelve gates visible, that's right, Okay, 453 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,639 So I see it's a great it's a great solution to show an acnographic 454 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:10,320 space that reveals itself, but that still suggests the square without hiding the different 455 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,639 parts. Yeah, yeah, yes. A lot's been written recently, really 456 00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:22,480 from the time of George. I'll Alfronski on the different perspective systems used in 457 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,400 icons, and in this perspective has sort of stolen the scene. But in 458 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:30,000 fact I figured there are about seven types of icon perspective. One is multiview 459 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:35,840 perspective, like in this one. That's to say you're viewing the square or 460 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,920 Cubic whative. It is New Jerusalem from all different angles at once, so 461 00:35:39,079 --> 00:35:44,320 all gates are visible. Of course, in garden Guard is not limited to 462 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,800 space. So in general, an icon of confounds our rational faculty to help 463 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,519 us to go from from there, which is good, but it has limitations 464 00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:58,400 into the noose, into the neuetic faculty, which can This is the real 465 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,800 tesser act, not this scientific stuff about four dimensions like this is. This 466 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,159 is an actual testeract. But you can show everything you know simultaneously in a 467 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,639 in a space. But it's interesting to think about that what you said, 468 00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:15,719 because in some ways, you know, if you think of the I would 469 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,880 say that this is a meaningful Cubism in some ways where the Cubists did it 470 00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:23,960 in a manner that was esthetic and not necessarily trying to point to meaning. 471 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:30,159 But now you're you're flipping space, and you're you're showing all these different facets 472 00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:37,119 simultaneously, but rather to reveal something about creation and the relationship between one and 473 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,519 and twelve. So that's a I think it's a great it's a great fact. 474 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,079 Probably all of the as it were, discovery, such a maybe vwdiscovery. 475 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:50,800 It's a twenty century art calor field painting, for example, saying well, 476 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,960 the surface is flat, so while trying to make it three dimensional using 477 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:59,119 perspective whatever, all these things. Really I've always been in the sacred tradition, 478 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,519 but as you say, Cubism, for example, is always the icon 479 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,320 that we kept it in the round with the sacred. Just have taken that 480 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:14,800 one esthetic tool and sort of separated it, which is really exciting. I 481 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,519 think a lot, a lot of research has been done on a lot of 482 00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:23,159 the orthodox roots of early Modernism, often in a based way, but you 483 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:29,159 know, it's there, it's not actually a discovery at all. Yeah, 484 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:30,239 and there are ways that we can recapture. And I mean, I think 485 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,840 that's some of the work that you've done, Father Silvan, many of the 486 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,519 of the Romanian artists as well, who are trying to kind of say okay, 487 00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:40,079 well, let's get you know, we can also take some of the 488 00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:46,480 best elements of these traditions and reintegrate them into a vision that is hierarchical and 489 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,719 you know, and doesn't doesn't try to just transgress to transgress, but rather 490 00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:54,639 is able to kind of mold, re out, mold our vision so that 491 00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:00,880 we can have a better insight. Yeah. So tell me about the carving 492 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,440 that's back behind you, because you know it's like you're tempting me by putting 493 00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:10,559 that up right there for you Donald Industry. Yeah, this has been quite 494 00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:15,719 a complex commission. It's the three, the US and the and it's commissioned 495 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,400 for an Orthodox church to have an interior door. And it's going to be 496 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,159 the upper panel of the door. So it's carved and this will be in 497 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:30,840 a door. Yeah, the door. Yeah, it's quite quite rd Yeah, 498 00:38:31,639 --> 00:38:40,360 but live nice little high or something. Yeah, it's beautiful. I 499 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,159 mean it's also I'm so jealous. I've never had the chance to do to 500 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:50,639 do a color carving, to have to have it painted. It's quite it's 501 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:57,679 really amazing. I found sometimes it's quite good to polychrome as long as you 502 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,760 do justice to the wood carving that just sort of take it and paint so 503 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,599 you can see the wood coming through because you don't depend so much from good 504 00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:09,360 lighting to show the detail. Yeah, with low relief, if the lighting 505 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,599 is good, it just looks a bit like a blobb at a distance. 506 00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:17,599 And so yeah, you've done it with stain instead of painting it, painting 507 00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:21,320 it like that. Yeah, I used oil paint, but put lots and 508 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:27,000 lots of turpscent. So it's alms for stain. Really, So I see 509 00:39:27,039 --> 00:39:30,880 me sealed the wood first and then used oil. You can't really use a 510 00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:36,679 temper in a situation like this. And then and then put a think coat 511 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,159 of varnish and waxed it over the top. Yeah, it's really beautiful. 512 00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:43,519 Is that? The only are you going to make other other panels for this? 513 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,119 This assistance one? That's one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 514 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,960 hadn't seen you carve in a while though, have you. It seems like 515 00:39:51,039 --> 00:39:53,719 this is it's been a while since I've seen you make it an elaborate Yeah. 516 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,840 Well, I don't suppose so many people commission carving, so I just 517 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,239 do what I'm permissioned to do. Yeah, I did two carboys about two 518 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:07,360 years ago. But yeah, they're big gaps where I don't get anything stone 519 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,400 is more common because they can be part of an icon, screen or whatever. 520 00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:14,199 I don't know about you, but I find stone easier to carve than 521 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,440 wood. With wood, for sure, so many chisels and you got to 522 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,440 worry about the grain. And yeah, stone you just have flat chisels pretty 523 00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:23,000 much. You just you know, and then this and then wood. It's 524 00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:25,880 like it's whole and you have to keep them super sharp. You know. 525 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,639 With stone you don't have to think about it so much. Shoving them a 526 00:40:29,679 --> 00:40:30,800 little, not too much if you don't want them to be too sharp. 527 00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:35,960 Yeah, I prefer I prefer coroming stone by far. Yeah, and form 528 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,159 merely soap stone, isn't it all steer type rather? Yeah, that's mostly 529 00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:42,719 what I'm doing. Have you ever tried to carve the well? You really 530 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,920 kindly gave me a piece, but I just I just have got round. 531 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,639 I really like to. Once you carve that, you will you won't you 532 00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:53,679 won't be you know, you'll start writing the emails saying Jonathan, I need 533 00:40:53,760 --> 00:41:00,119 more of that steel type. Yeah. I have carved ivory that sort of 534 00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:04,079 bit similar, I suppose, and that it's gotten a grain at all and 535 00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:07,880 really dense. And when I was at Mount Alfast. I was commissioned to 536 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,519 carve something for the patriarch, and there's a wood called flamori, which I've 537 00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:16,960 never come across before. It's actually grainless. It's not boxwood, but I've 538 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,880 got boxwood to look at, but not not as hard as box would. 539 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:24,480 I did a kind of the Potatus icon with it, and I really enjoyed 540 00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:29,840 that. Have you ever tried carving boxwood before? Oh? Yeah, yeah, 541 00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:34,440 yeah, it's really amazing. Yeah that's good. Yeah. I wanted 542 00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:40,400 to say about the the icon is the challenge was being pedagogic in the sense 543 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:46,920 of teaching that I just don't like images that are just like illustrations that the 544 00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:52,599 like things you read in one's mind, so and that sort of takes away 545 00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:57,039 that soulishness of a work. I think the work of art should always hit 546 00:41:57,119 --> 00:42:00,480 you right in a sort of texus, and then you can unfold the inner 547 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:04,719 meaning. So I just found the only way to get a unity was to 548 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,679 really have a reduced color scheme, so basically you're all green and blue, 549 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:15,039 which would be close. And then I started reading a book. This one 550 00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:21,960 actually got it here by here and she she uses the Greek term in our 551 00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:25,599 gear, not in the gear, but in our gear, which is really 552 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:32,400 the immediate impact of esthetics on the soul. And if I'm down in the 553 00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:37,079 right way, then it brings us closer to God rather than just being titilation. 554 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,599 So apart from all the content of the kind, I really wanted it 555 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,360 to have beautiful in its own rights, and the composition and the color, 556 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,280 and I was really struggling with that. But then I found if I really 557 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,119 limited the color palette, then they're the details there sort of it comes one, 558 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,639 yeah, because there are a lot of details in you write. If 559 00:42:57,679 --> 00:43:00,800 you had you could get distracted by little animals and all the you know, 560 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,599 all the dinosaurs and all these things. But I, like you said, 561 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,159 you don't have that experience. I think I think a lot of it is 562 00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:13,719 also because Christ appears very strongly and the you know, the colors here, 563 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,400 the kind of orange yellow color, and also Adam and Eve, so the 564 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:23,360 characters in this center, because the colors are stronger there than all these little 565 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:30,719 details here maybe at first seem ornamental, uh, and then they and so 566 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,599 they kind of they kind of fuse together. But if you pay attention to 567 00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:36,079 them, you can see them, but they don't. But they don't. 568 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,800 They don't call out, you know, they don't. It's a limited various 569 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,000 the color palette of the trees and animals to the left and right, so 570 00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:50,159 they're there, but they're not different colors. If I put green lazy everywhere, 571 00:43:50,199 --> 00:43:52,360 than they're distract from Christ. Yeah, what is this here, this 572 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:58,719 little image here? Yeah, well that sounds the the line with the kid. 573 00:43:59,159 --> 00:44:02,519 Yeah, the prophecies of Isire. Yeah, so you've got the there 574 00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:06,239 and on the other side as well, so it's the prophecy of Isire. 575 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,559 But the you know, the lion shot lay down for lamb and so on. 576 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,159 Okay, okay, yeah, you're on the right there, you've got 577 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,639 the the wolf and the wolf and the and here the line of it. 578 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,760 And it's then this is just like a person that's with them, like the 579 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,480 child shall put a hand in the asps in the asps. Oh right, 580 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,519 okay, yeah, yeah, okay, I thought of that all right. 581 00:44:30,519 --> 00:44:36,199 And also you've got dinosaurs eating grass there, so that you've got said, 582 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,000 no, yes, on the left there, you've got a tyrannosaur's rex eating 583 00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:44,880 grass on the left there. Yeah. Yeah, to say that the dinosaurs, 584 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,639 they weired me out a little bit because I would have I would have 585 00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:52,280 put dragons, is what I would have put into the dinosaurs. Well, 586 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,159 actually I can put one in for you, just for you, John, 587 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,079 Yeah, oh if you did that, if you put a dragon in there 588 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,760 just for me, I would be grateful forever. I shall put that in. 589 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:07,039 I'm putting notes down of everything I'm enjoying, so I'll change it overnia 590 00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:13,480 round and I'll put a dragon. H And so tell us a bit about 591 00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:16,320 about your your future plans, because you're in a new workshop now, you're 592 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:21,000 you're focusing on that, giving giving some trainings and anything. Maybe tell people 593 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,360 what you're up to beside this this particular image. Yeah, thank you. 594 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:30,039 Yes, I just moved to a larger studio because my two previous apprentices, 595 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:37,480 Jim Blackstone and Martin Earl, have moved down to Chichester. Now it's approached 596 00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:42,639 by them two years ago the Anglican Cathedral to up and set up a liturgical 597 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,960 arts center. So it has two elements to it. One is to train 598 00:45:45,119 --> 00:45:49,480 people to much higher standard, not just an icon paignting, but fresco and 599 00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:52,719 carving that sort of thing. So so Jim and Martin are heading that. 600 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:59,639 But the second armor of the center is to also educate priests and decision makers 601 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,719 and as much to say anything, how to help them brief people like architects, 602 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,159 like if you're lucky enough to someone like Andrew Gold who knows what they're 603 00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:10,199 doing, it's fine. But a lot of architects haven't done church work. 604 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:16,880 So a we're trying to get involved with seminaries, catholking and orthodox to I 605 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:24,000 suppose equip the decision maker is just with the main principles commissioning work. A 606 00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:28,800 priest can't tell an architect, for example, or an I canogra for how 607 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,039 to do things, but at least I can say, this is the atmosphere, 608 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:34,440 this is the state of soul, this is how thelity operates. So 609 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,400 what you do has got to work liturgically and spiritually, basically how to give 610 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:45,239 a brief. So anyway, Martin and Jim have gone down there, So 611 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,079 that meant that I had space for more apprentices. So I love a young 612 00:46:49,159 --> 00:46:52,719 man, twenty five year old man from New Zealand who's joined me a few 613 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,360 months ago, and then another is coming from New Zealand for shorter apprenticeship. 614 00:46:57,639 --> 00:47:02,119 So yeah, and for those who don't know like that, been falling kind 615 00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:07,639 of the whole story that the snow White book that we published with Heather Pollington, 616 00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:10,719 uh, you know, beautiful, beautiful book. And now Heather is 617 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,159 studying with Aiden. It's been studying now with you for a few months now, 618 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:21,360 and I'm already seeing we're doing Rapunzel. Now we're doing the second book, 619 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,280 and and now that all the stylistic choices that she's making, and I 620 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:30,639 can see that she's mastering folds, and she's mastering certain elements of iconography that 621 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:35,519 you know, take takes some time to to to dive in, and she's 622 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,079 creating these beautiful bridges between kind of secular illustration and iconography. And so I 623 00:47:39,159 --> 00:47:43,679 know that I have I have you to thank in in large part for that. 624 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,239 So I appreciate that I've been a real joy having Hit and I so 625 00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:51,280 please that she'd began working with you, because it had been a vision of 626 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,519 hers to be a full time liturgical artist and it can be really hard to 627 00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:58,960 find him opening, but things opened up very very quickly for her. And 628 00:47:59,079 --> 00:48:00,800 I do go on with garments quite a lot of time with my students. 629 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,480 So Side won the three year part time icon course. Your face is not 630 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,480 easy, but it's all faces. More is the same, yeah, in 631 00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:13,440 the sense that they got two eyes and nose of a mouth, But garments 632 00:48:13,639 --> 00:48:17,039 drapery is so much more complex, so much a lot of work. So 633 00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:21,639 I really sort of hammer it's got to be a certain logic to it that 634 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,599 we transfigured the world. We don't distort it. And I think a lot 635 00:48:24,639 --> 00:48:30,400 of iconography it distorts folds, you know, it doesn't understanding. So I 636 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,119 think I really really labeled at some pleas that she's coming wrong, right. 637 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,440 I think that's definitely in your work. It's something that I really appreciate because 638 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,440 you can see that in late iconography, Russian iconography, especially at some point 639 00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:49,000 the garments has become abstract shaped, which which is beautiful to some extent, 640 00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:52,079 but somebody becomes almost disincarnated. And I think in some ways, even the 641 00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:57,800 fact that that you started as a carver, you and and me also as 642 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,320 a as an icon carver, that the investments have to make sense because or 643 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,199 else you can't. You can't curve it if it's complete, If it's just 644 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,239 like lines and just abstract things, it looks horrible. And so there's desire 645 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,199 to kind of come back to something which like you said, is both makes 646 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,880 sense but has a transfigured element to it, And I think it's a it's 647 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,280 definitely definitely the way forward because you can't. At some point the abstraction just 648 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,800 falls apart and you you know, it's just disconnect with reality. So I 649 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,719 think it's a general principle of life, isn't it that when they find the 650 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:30,519 bond of this My spiritual father in Wales a blessed memory. He said that 651 00:49:30,559 --> 00:49:31,960 if you want to know God, you must know this soil from which you 652 00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:37,480 came first. If we try to link to higher things then will crash down 653 00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:42,280 very quickly. So I think just understanding the laws and creation, like how 654 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,880 a branch comes out from a trunk for example. Basic things like that all 655 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,920 they should be embodied in the icon. Yes, I'm doing that. Some 656 00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:55,880 interesting Frisco work, well silica paint of really rather than real fisco for apses, 657 00:49:57,519 --> 00:50:00,280 So things seem to go through different phases. The a lot of appsidal 658 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:05,280 commissions at the moment, which is great I love because an apse wraps around 659 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,880 you, of course, and because some apps is in churches which probably won't 660 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,239 have scope for other work. You've got to say, a lot albeit with 661 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,320 hopefully with elegance in that one space. So that's why I go back to 662 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:22,119 these Roman apses where you've got Christ and a few cents, but also the 663 00:50:22,199 --> 00:50:29,039 new Jerusalem indicated by Bethlehem and Jerusalem and often seet moving toward the center. 664 00:50:29,199 --> 00:50:32,719 So that's like all of all of the faithful and time moving toward Christ. 665 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,280 Yeah, And I think your intuition about appses is one that I caught right 666 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,679 away when I started looking at your work, and I thought was the right 667 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,880 way to go. Because you see a lot of Orthodox churches end up in 668 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:50,039 either Catholic buildings or Anglican buildings, and so they don't have a dome, 669 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,920 and so then they want to kind of maintain the iconography of the Church of 670 00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:59,639 the dome with the apps. So they'll end up putting the Virgin in the 671 00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:02,000 apps. But then they don't know where to put Christ, and so they'll 672 00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:07,239 they'll sometimes like like stick a like a flat disc, you know, at 673 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,519 the at the ceiling, and there's and it's like there's a there's a pretty 674 00:51:10,039 --> 00:51:15,920 like a perfectly Orthodox solution to this problem, which is to understand the APPS 675 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,079 as a little microcosm of the whole church and to have Christ at the top. 676 00:51:20,159 --> 00:51:22,360 Sometimes you can even have the Virgin underneath him, you know, you 677 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,480 see images of that. We have Christ and glory and then the Virgin with 678 00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:29,599 child and the apostles. Like. There are different ways to do it where 679 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:32,000 you can capture all the same symbolism, not in the same scope, but 680 00:51:32,159 --> 00:51:37,199 at least the essence of the same symbolism in the apps without without distorting your 681 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,199 architecture. You know, well, this is something, This is exactly what 682 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:45,840 I'm talking about, the need to educate priests, seminarians, anyone who makes 683 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,960 these sort of decision what you said, it is just the most basic thing. 684 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,199 Work with what you've got and don't try to make it something of the 685 00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:57,119 descent. If it's a basilica, treated as a brisilica off a down chirt. 686 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,760 I didn't think it would require much time in the same to get these 687 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,239 things across, you know, to three days. You could even in a 688 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,480 day the three basic principles could be communicated. So I've been anyone's listening to 689 00:52:08,599 --> 00:52:13,960 this podcast who can have influence in seminaries, please please, I beg of 690 00:52:14,039 --> 00:52:17,480 you, you know, just just habit is not optional, but mandatory for 691 00:52:17,559 --> 00:52:21,920 everyone in the seminary to have at least a day or two, not in 692 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,199 how depend icons at all, but just principles and you know, and ask 693 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:30,039 Jonathan and Andrew myself, you know, put down on two sides of a 694 00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:34,679 way four the principles tape in mind. I'm beg of you out there. 695 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,000 We'll make a video for you and you could just show it to the students 696 00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:39,519 of it like we'll do that. Yeah, all of you are listening, 697 00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:44,239 and say'm glad to say Tacon's you know, all these American seminaries and the 698 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,760 European seminaries. Yeah, I think that's a great that's a great insight, 699 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,599 great insight. Well, Aidan, thank you so much. You know, 700 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,159 I always love talking to you and I cannot wait to see this image come 701 00:52:55,239 --> 00:53:00,199 to fruition. You know, I'll once you have pictures of you working on 702 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,000 it, please send them to me and I'll also share them because I think 703 00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:07,320 it's going to be a wonderful work, lovely good. I'm starting a Petreon 704 00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:13,199 site and hopefully a few days mind because of your advice, so I'll be 705 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,760 putting updates on that as well. But I'll let you know all right, 706 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:21,400 this is a way to support Aiden's work. You know the iconographers, they 707 00:53:21,519 --> 00:53:23,760 give their life to sacred art and give their life to the church, and 708 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,639 so we need to we definitely need to help them be able to do that, 709 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,960 and so I will definitely be checking out your Patreon as soon as it's 710 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:35,559 up, and I encourage everybody to go there. Thank you, love you, 711 00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:39,159 sir so Jonathan, Thanks Ed. What's some inspiration? Hi? If 712 00:53:39,199 --> 00:53:44,159 you enjoyed these videos and podcasts, please go to the Symbolic World dot com 713 00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,400 website and see how you can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber 714 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,199 tiers with perks, are apparel and books to purchase. So go to the 715 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,000 Symbolic World dot com and thank you for your support.