1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,000 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,280 and murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,039 together with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, 7 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:32,039 a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 8 00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:37,320 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my 9 00:00:37,399 --> 00:00:48,880 partner in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to minde or Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,399 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by reporter and podcaster Paul 11 00:00:54,439 --> 00:00:58,679 Wagner of the American Nightmare podcast. Paul, thank you so much for joining 12 00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:02,320 us today. Can't thank you guys enough for having me. I love your 13 00:01:02,399 --> 00:01:06,239 podcast, and so it's a thrill to be questioned by you guys. As 14 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,959 we were saying off air, Paul, usually you're the guy asking the tough 15 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,120 questions. That's fine, it's just go ahead. I'm an open book. 16 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,239 Hit Before we start talking about the podcast, let's actually go ahead and start 17 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,280 with you and tell us a little bit about how you got your start in 18 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,879 broadcasting. So when I was fourteen years old growing up just outside New York 19 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,519 City in northern New Jersey, I was fascinated by New York radio and I 20 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,280 would mimic all the DJs, and I just thought it was the coolest thing. 21 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,760 And I lived in a neighborhood where we had people that lived that worked 22 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,239 in the news business and worked for the big networks. Our next door neighbor 23 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,359 worked for ABC, another network, I'm sorry. Another neighbor worked for ABC 24 00:01:46,519 --> 00:01:49,400 Television, another one for ABC Radio, another one worked for CBS, and 25 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,760 so I was always questioning them about the business, and I was just fascinated 26 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,359 with it. And so when I went to high school, we had a 27 00:01:57,359 --> 00:02:00,439 little radio station there. And then in college, I went to one year 28 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:06,079 of college at William Patterson College in Wayne, New Jersey, but they had 29 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:08,360 what was called a carrier current. You could only hear the station in the 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,599 buildings. And I then had an opportunity to go to Mount Saint Mary's College 31 00:02:13,599 --> 00:02:16,639 in Emmitsburg, Maryland, and they had at ten watt radio station, so 32 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:23,280 you could hear the radio station anywhere around the campus in your car, and 33 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:24,840 it was just so cool. I just thought that was the neatest thing. 34 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,919 And then while I was at school, I got my first professional job at 35 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:35,080 WYCRFM in Hanover, Pennsylvania, was a top forty station, and so I 36 00:02:35,159 --> 00:02:38,639 did the news and I did some djaying, and then I went home for 37 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,199 a year, went on a backpacking trip to Europe, and then I came 38 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,639 home and my dad kicked me out of the house. He said, go 39 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,360 down to Washington, DC. Moveing with your sister. He says, she's 40 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:53,120 got an open room. Go find a job. And it was so fortuitous, 41 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:55,759 and the timing was just serendipitous. I get down there and there's a 42 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:01,960 little company called Metro Traffic Control that was starting up and they were they were 43 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:07,120 looking for mobile reporters that would go out in the rush hours and report on 44 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:09,680 traffic. And I'm a young guy and I'm like, oh, this is 45 00:03:09,719 --> 00:03:14,039 pretty cool. And it didn't pay anything, but it got my start in 46 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,080 broadcasting. And my claim to fame in that job was that I was giving 47 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,560 binoculars in a two way radio and told to go to the top of the 48 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,240 Washington Monument and report from the top of the Washington Monument on all the bridges 49 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:30,240 across the Potomac River. So I did that for a few years, and 50 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,639 then I really clamped down on myself and I said, if I'm going to 51 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,560 be a newsman, I got to find a news job. And I started 52 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:39,560 at a news station here and I'm sorry, it was an oldie station here 53 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,000 in Washington, DUC and I did the news there for a couple of years. 54 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,319 Then I landed a job at the Associated Press. And then I'd been 55 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,039 after WTOP News Radio for a job because it was a union job and I 56 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,400 needed a union job because I wasn't getting paid anything. And one day, 57 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:54,719 just out of the blue, Top called me and said, hey, we 58 00:03:54,759 --> 00:03:57,560 got a job for you. Would you like to come to work here. 59 00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:00,159 I say all that to say. I spent eleven years at WTOP Radio, 60 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,879 and then I jumped over to television and went to Fox five DC and I 61 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:06,879 was a reporter there for twenty one years, and then I took a buy 62 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:14,159 out and while I was producing podcasts for WTOP, WRC called and said we 63 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:17,519 could really use another reporter and can you come and help us out. So 64 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,439 I'm now working there part time, and then I'm producing the podcast, the 65 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:27,399 American Nightmare Podcast for WTOP. So let's it in a nutshell. One of 66 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:30,879 the questions that Kristen and I wanted to ask you. You're very unique in 67 00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:38,399 that you've worn these different broadcaster hats. You start out in radio, then 68 00:04:38,439 --> 00:04:41,839 you go over to television for a twenty one year run, which is amazing 69 00:04:41,879 --> 00:04:47,040 that you were at one station for twenty one years. Then you're doing podcasting 70 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:53,439 and radio, and now you're back into television. What's your take on the 71 00:04:53,560 --> 00:05:00,639 various platforms radio, television, and now podcasting. What's similar and it's different 72 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,920 about those three types of transmissions, if you will. Very good question. 73 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:10,759 So with radio, I was compartmentalized to thirty five seconds a story, and 74 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,439 it just can't tell a story in thirty five seconds, and that frustrated me. 75 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,560 Fortunately, I had been developing sources while I was at WTOP, and 76 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,399 I started breaking a lot of stories, and there was a news director at 77 00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:26,879 Fox five that found out and was listening to my stories and decided, let's 78 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,839 give this radio guy a try and took a chance on me. And what 79 00:05:30,879 --> 00:05:33,480 I really enjoyed doing by going over there was that I was going to get 80 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:35,879 a lot more time to tell the story. And so I was going to 81 00:05:35,959 --> 00:05:41,160 get two maybe three minutes if I'm really lucky to tell a story, and 82 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:44,680 I think you can tell a good TV story in about two minutes. When 83 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,720 I started seeing what podcasting was doing, I was just enthralled by it because 84 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,360 I was like, wait a minute, you can really get into a story 85 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:58,399 with podcasts and there's no time limit and you can add and subtract and nobody's 86 00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:01,040 going to tell you sorry, you can't have that amount of time. And 87 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,759 our series have some of them have gone forty five minutes, gone an hour, 88 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,759 but based on what I had and what I thought was interesting, and 89 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:14,639 so I think the podcast format is my favorite at this point because of the 90 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,040 ability to be able to just add everything and not leave anything out, because 91 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:21,360 in TV you're always leaving something out. Yeah, that's what I love about 92 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:26,480 it, and that's definitely something that we like to being able to depend as 93 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,800 much time as we need to a subject so that you can really get all 94 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,560 of the information out there exactly for anybody who's not familiar with American Nightmare, 95 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,800 go ahead and give us a summary and a breakdown about American Nightmare. So 96 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,279 what happened was Fox five offered me a buyout. And I was at that 97 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,480 time in my early sixties, and the buyout was a nice chunk of change. 98 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,680 And I went to my wife and I said, what do you think? 99 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,639 And she said, you got to take the money because I was coming 100 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,439 up on being able to take my pension. And then I had this story 101 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,199 that I really wanted to tell in a podcast, and I'd already done one 102 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,160 podcast for Fox five. I did it on a notorious murder here in the 103 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:11,639 City, which is soon going to be a Peacock documentary that I'm part of. 104 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,079 I did a podcast for Fox five, and so that gave me the 105 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,639 taste was like of what podcasts can do and how fun they are to put 106 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,600 together. And so I took the buy out and I had this story and 107 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,839 I started writing it. I took a summer and I wrote the story, 108 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,759 and I had to get the three children of the murder victim to agree to 109 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:34,360 tell their stories. It wasn't easy. They were a little apprehensive, but 110 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,160 I was able to talk them into it, and fortunately their stories came out 111 00:07:39,319 --> 00:07:44,000 and were just so touching to hear what happened to them and their mother, 112 00:07:44,079 --> 00:07:46,040 and so that was called murder in a Safe Place. It was Sherry Crandall 113 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:49,680 was her name. She was a nurse and she was murdered inside her office 114 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,759 at a hospital in Prince George's County, Maryland in nineteen ninety eight, and 115 00:07:54,839 --> 00:07:57,199 so that's why we called it murder in a Safe Place. At the end 116 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,000 of that summer, I talked to several good friends who frequently give me advice, 117 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,639 and I said, what do you think I should do with this? 118 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,079 And they said, why don't you take it to a news organization, because 119 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,120 you're going to need a backer. You're going to need somebody to support you. 120 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:13,079 And so I approached the Washington Post. They weren't interested, but I 121 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,680 went to Wtop and they jumped on it immediately and they wanted it. And 122 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,839 part of the reason they wanted is because they have a steak Hubbor Broadcasting is 123 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,720 a stake in a server called podcast one, and they were looking for stories. 124 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,759 And I went trying to contract with them to get this thing going and 125 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,120 off the ground. And fortunately they had a really good editor there who helped 126 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,840 me, and we basically rewrote the whole podcast and then yeah, I know, 127 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,799 but it turned out so much better because I can write, but having 128 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,039 an editor is a good thing. So that's how it came together. And 129 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,320 it's an open end to deal with WTOP and then I came up with the 130 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,960 second one called Unknown Subject, which is out now, which has got nine 131 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,039 episodes, and now I'm looking for a new subject. One of questions was, 132 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:07,039 so you've done several seasons, how do you choose the cases you want 133 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,360 to cover. That's a very good question. So the twenty one years I 134 00:09:11,399 --> 00:09:13,279 was at Fox five, I got to know a lot of cops, and 135 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,240 I got to know a lot of cold case cops, and I was fascinated 136 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,120 with cold cases. And the boss at Fox five then gave me what we 137 00:09:22,159 --> 00:09:26,200 call at the time of franchise, and so every Saturday night I'd feature a 138 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,879 cold case and it was usually an extended story, something that was like five 139 00:09:30,879 --> 00:09:33,519 minutes long, and that's long for w for television. I got to know 140 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,320 a lot of cops, and so I got to know and hear about a 141 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,200 lot of these cold cases. And with Sherry Crandell, I got to know 142 00:09:41,279 --> 00:09:46,120 the detective many years ago, and I featured her murder on Channel five and 143 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:48,799 then I stayed in touch with the detective, and I stayed in touch with 144 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,960 Sherry's daughter, Tiffany. So after I took the buyout, I approached Tiffany 145 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,919 and I said, what would you think about me telling your mother's story in 146 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,399 a podcast. It took a little bit of persuasion because she wasn't really clear 147 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,080 on what a podcast really was. Her brother, excuse me, her brother, 148 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,279 Darren, as a cop. He was a little apprehensive, but he 149 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,399 came around. And so once they had agreed to it, and then I 150 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,399 called the detective and I said, look, I got the kids on board, 151 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:20,679 will you do it? He said he would, and then wtop when 152 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,320 I went to them, they said, all right, if they're all on 153 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,080 board, you need to go to the police and tell them you need an 154 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,159 open book on this case because can't do this story and say sources say this, 155 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,559 and sources say that. We need to be able to say what we 156 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,919 know about this case. And I fortunately knew the former commander of homicide who 157 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,159 also agreed to take part, and so that's how it all came together. 158 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,240 Yeah, one of the things that I was very curious about, is is 159 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:50,519 the level of cooperation from law enforcement, because we know from personal experience that 160 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,320 there are times when law enforcement is a little leary of getting involved in media 161 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,639 and podcasts and various other things. It seems pretty clear that your relationships with 162 00:10:58,759 --> 00:11:03,799 lawn forcemen have helped you. Oh, there's no question. Fortunately, he 163 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,840 built a good reputation here in town. And because I had so many cop 164 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:09,399 friends, so they all talk to each other, and I knew that they 165 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:13,000 were talking to each other about can you really trust Wagner? And can you 166 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,559 tell them things and tell him it's off the record and he's going to trust 167 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,840 you. And I'm sure some of them tested me on that. But yeah, 168 00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:24,080 that And the other part to this too is that although the detective in 169 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:28,080 Murder in a Safe Place is still the lead detective and he still works for 170 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,399 the Prince George's County Police, most of the others were already retired. It's 171 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,759 easier to get a detective to open up if they've been retired, because they 172 00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:39,879 feel they feel like they can speak more freely, rather than having the Public 173 00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:45,440 Information Office breathing down their neck saying you have to be careful in what you're 174 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,279 going to say, So that's that's part of it and an unknown subject. 175 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:52,200 A lot of the people that I talked to were retired and that helped as 176 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,559 well. So talk to us a little bit about the case that is at 177 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,279 the heart of unknown subject. Just give us a little brief overview of that 178 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,080 if you would. Wow. I know, but it's possible. I let 179 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,799 me tas let me try and explain it this way. When I was at 180 00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:15,399 Fox five, I covered Christiemer's Ion's murder. She was a brilliant doctoral candidate 181 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,480 scientist and she was walking home from a party one night in Georgetown and she 182 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,759 got pulled into a wooded area and just brutally murdered. I stayed on that 183 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,600 story for years, and I stayed in touch with the detectives who were covering 184 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,480 it. I broke several stories about it, including the link. At one 185 00:12:31,519 --> 00:12:35,240 time, it was seven years later, a detective pulled me aside and told 186 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,639 me that there's a DNA link between Christine's murder and a series of rapes in 187 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,960 Montgomery County, Maryland that had never been reported before. I broke that angle 188 00:12:45,039 --> 00:12:48,799 of the story and then just kept at it. Once I had finished murder 189 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,159 in a safe place. I figured this was a good one to do because 190 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,600 they had made an arrest in the case. So I guess the short version 191 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,039 of this story is that this was a man named Giles Warwick who worked in 192 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,240 construction in Montgomery County, Maryland, and he was accused of going out at 193 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:11,080 night and committing these awful, vicious rapes and then he stopped because the cops 194 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:16,240 couldn't find DNA after a certain period of time, so after nineteen ninety eight, 195 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:18,720 So from nineteen ninety one to nineteen ninety eight, they knew they had 196 00:13:18,759 --> 00:13:22,639 a DNA trail from this guy. They knew they had the same guy, 197 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,000 they just didn't know who it was. So years go by, and then 198 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:31,679 the FBI gets involved, and then they dubbed him the Potomac River rapist and 199 00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:35,440 that got national attention, and then the case just went cold again. It 200 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,120 didn't go anywhere. They had the DNA, of course in codis, but 201 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,080 it wasn't hitting on anything. And it's just this guy went off the grid 202 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,879 in two eighteen into nineteen. The police decided to try genetic genealogy and that's 203 00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:52,879 how they found him. The story is just so involved it's hard to just 204 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,279 encapsulate it. But yeah, the thrilling part about the story is that I 205 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,519 got a lot of people to talk to me. I got a lot of 206 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:03,840 people to tell me their views on the case and what they did on the 207 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,399 case. And then the timing worked out perfectly for us because he was going 208 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,559 to trial, and as he was going to trial, the US Attorney's Office 209 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,759 here in the District of Columbia was releasing more and more information. And so 210 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:20,840 as I was writing the final versions of the podcast, we were getting all 211 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,919 these new documents and all this new information. And so I was on the 212 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,799 phone with a producer at WTOP and we're talking about what we should add, 213 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:33,320 what we should leave out, and then we got the gift of a lifetime. 214 00:14:33,919 --> 00:14:39,159 Anybody in TV news or RAYU news will tell you that getting something like 215 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,600 this is just a gift that you just don't get all the time. And 216 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:46,639 that is the US Attorney's office. The prosecutors were trying to convince the judge 217 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:54,759 to allow them to introduce certain evidence, and they introduced the two interviews that 218 00:14:54,879 --> 00:15:01,039 Giles Warwick did with the police in his house before they arrested him. Then 219 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,559 the next day, after they arrested him. Once they introduced it into evidence 220 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,960 in the courthouse, it's public record. So I went to the judge and 221 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,519 said, we're requesting copies of these interviews, and the judge turned them over, 222 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,559 and so we were able to include them in the podcast, which just 223 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:24,279 I thought made the last episode eight just really I just think it's sounded fantastic 224 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:30,679 having that guy in there that seems so unusual, and listening to the podcast, 225 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,879 and then to have the interview with the suspect at his home and they're 226 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:43,039 having this kind of quiet conversation but it's about critical information. They're easing into 227 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,360 it. I remember when they're asking him if you ever lived in Maryland, 228 00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:50,679 and you can picture them probably at this guy's kitchen table or something, just 229 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:54,799 easing into it, and the guy is allowing himself to begin to tell the 230 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:00,240 story. But I don't remember ever hearing interviews like that before. I mean, 231 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:07,440 that sounds exceptionally rare. That's what's so exciting about genetic genealogy is they 232 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:15,360 went on November seventh, twenty nineteen, to talk with relatives that they thought 233 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,279 were connected to the unknown subject. Okay, and so they had narrowed it 234 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,159 down a one family tree and on the same day, several detectives went out 235 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:29,000 and interviewed family members to see about a missing link. They knew that it 236 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:32,519 was the killer was in this family tree, they just didn't know where he 237 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:37,320 fit. The detectives get this one person, this family members sits down and 238 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:38,799 the family member says, well, there's a part to our family that we 239 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:42,279 don't really talk about, and that is my father had an affair with a 240 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,159 woman, mother and a child, and so I have a half brother. 241 00:16:45,799 --> 00:16:49,600 Wow. The bells went off, and the detectives got his name, and 242 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:52,759 they started running his name, and he had a criminal record, and he 243 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,799 lived in Montgomery County at the times that rapes were taking place in areas where 244 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,399 the rapes were happening. They had a real good feeling that this was the 245 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:03,880 guy they wanted. So they went to a judge and they got a warrant 246 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,079 for his DNA. But they realized that he was in South Carolina. So 247 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,319 if they got down to South Carolina with the warrant, there's an affidavit attached 248 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:17,400 to the warrant, and according to South Carolina law, if you carry out 249 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,000 and execute a search warrant, you have to give that person the affidavit, 250 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:23,880 which would then explain all of their evidence. So they said, that's not 251 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,440 what we're gonna do. We're gonna go and knock on his door, surprise 252 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:33,119 him. We're gonna record it with a little tape recorder, and we're gonna 253 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,319 sit there and just chat with him. Tell him this is what we're doing. 254 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,480 We're trying to eliminate people. There were a series of rapes in Montgomery 255 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:45,039 County back in the nineties and a woman was murdered, and that's what they 256 00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:48,920 did. And they knew they had the search warrant in their back pocket if 257 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,759 he wouldn't give up his DNA. But as they were talking to him, 258 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:55,519 sitting on his couch in his living room at six thirty in the morning, 259 00:17:55,839 --> 00:18:00,079 he agrees to give up his DNA. He just said okay. And at 260 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,200 least we're astonished. And the detective, Todd Williams, he looked at him. 261 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,519 He says, look, I just want you to know you can say 262 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,920 no. Okay, you can say no, but if you're giving up your 263 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,240 DNA now, you're giving it up voluntarily. And he just said okay, 264 00:18:15,319 --> 00:18:22,440 and he did. And then they take the DNA and they have detectives outside 265 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,119 the house. They run outside with the swab, the buckle swab from the 266 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,119 DNA. They give it to the detective and then he and another detective race 267 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,200 back to Montgomery County, Maryland with the buckle swab and take it to the 268 00:18:34,279 --> 00:18:40,160 lab and by about eleven o'clock that night, same night, they had a 269 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,000 direct match and they knew they had their guy. Wow. Yeah, in 270 00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:48,640 a podcast that's full of twists and turns, and there's so much about the 271 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,759 way you put the store together that's so compelling. But I remember sitting there 272 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:56,920 literally on the edge of my seat when we got to the place where they're 273 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,920 interviewing him and he agrees to give up this DNA, and yet they explained 274 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,279 to him, you don't have to do this. So it isn't like they 275 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,640 lied to the guy. Yeah, he's since passed on. But what made 276 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,880 you think that Charles Warwick just decided to give up his DNA. I think 277 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,759 that he knew he was cornered. In fact, I talked to Alison Depoye 278 00:19:22,759 --> 00:19:26,599 about this, So, the detective from Montgomery County who made the arrest along 279 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,400 with Todd Williams. She thinks that he had a plan in his mind all 280 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:36,279 along on what was going to happen and what he was going to do if 281 00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:40,640 police ever knocked on his door, and that he had a getaway plan. 282 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,359 And so he figured because the police told him, and of course they allowed 283 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,519 to lie, and they told him it would take six to eight weeks to 284 00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:52,200 get their results back. Whether he ate that or not, I'm not sure, 285 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,400 but we do know that right after the police left, he started to 286 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,680 get his plan in place to take off. I don't know where he was 287 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,079 going to go, other than in the middle of the night, lights start 288 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,920 coming on inside his house. The police have the house under surveillance. They 289 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,400 realized he's on the move. They were waiting and waiting for the confirmation that 290 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,359 it was a direct match. As soon as they got that that it was 291 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,400 a direct match, the police officers were watching the house. They called Todd 292 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,240 and Allison, who were nearby at a motel, and said, we got 293 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:26,079 movement at this house. We need to go. They all went back to 294 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,559 the house, knocked on the door. He answers the door, and they 295 00:20:29,759 --> 00:20:33,720 took him into custody and charged him. But he had laid out on his 296 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:38,200 kitchen counter his plan. He'd left a letter which we call the Consciousness of 297 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:42,400 Guilt letter where he apologizes to the woman he was living with, and he 298 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:47,359 signed over titles to certain things, whether it was a house or he had 299 00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:49,799 he owned a house in Frederick County, Maryland, so he signed over some 300 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,000 titles. He left some cash, and he left this note, and then 301 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,920 he was going to go, and we don't know where he was going to 302 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:02,640 go, but the cops were watching the house and sorry, pal, we're 303 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:07,200 gonna lock you up. Are they planning on conducting a raid on the house 304 00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:11,440 the next morning at six thirty am. Yes, that is correct. So 305 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:15,559 their plan was to go and arrest him the next morning at six thirty in 306 00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:18,559 the morning. But that's why they had the house under surveillance. They just 307 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,799 had no idea what this guy had planned. They got a sense that he 308 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,839 knew the jig was up, that he was done, because he's not a 309 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,559 dummy. He knew by giving up his DNA that was probably going to be 310 00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:33,400 the end. But they had also lied and said it was going to take 311 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,440 six to eight weeks to get results, so he probably thought he had time 312 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:40,960 to get away. Tell us a little bit about it, and I love 313 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:47,759 this name for the record, tell Us about Steve Smugs smugger Ski. He's 314 00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:49,640 the bike cop who worked on this case. Talk to us a little bit 315 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,880 about him. That is just the best name I have ever heard in my 316 00:21:52,920 --> 00:22:00,920 life. It's fantastic. Steve is a revelation as far as being a bike 317 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:04,960 cop who was curious about ancestry, knew how to do searches on computers, 318 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,240 and made himself available to the police to do some of this work. This 319 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,640 was before genetic genealogy really started to grab hold. And so he was a 320 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,279 bike cop working downtown in Silver Spring, Maryland. Yeah, he goes by 321 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:23,319 Smugs. Everybody calls him Smugs. His name is Steve smugg Oreski and just 322 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:29,079 a lovely guy. I've interviewed him a couple of times now. He solved 323 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,920 the unsolvable. He solved the unsolvable. Yeah, that's what's just so fascinating 324 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,880 about it. And so the backstory to Steve very quickly. The police at 325 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:45,319 one point wanted to hold ceremony, hold a ceremony for all of the family 326 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,519 members of fallen officers, okay, and they couldn't find a family member from 327 00:22:49,559 --> 00:22:55,559 their first fallen officer back in nineteen twenty something like that. The police went 328 00:22:55,599 --> 00:22:57,160 to Steve and said, hey, do you think you might be able to 329 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,759 dig into this. You liked this kind of stuff. He said, sure, 330 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,359 let me try, and so he did, and he found a relative 331 00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:08,400 that the police never knew about. And now they come to the ceremony every 332 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,039 year and they honor this officer who had died back in nineteen twenty one. 333 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,279 So the cold case guys are going, wait a minute, smugs, I 334 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:19,519 think you need to come up here and help us out. Yeah, some 335 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:26,680 new cases. He then solved two or three very quickly, stuff via DNA 336 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,079 that they'd had for years that they had no idea who it was, and 337 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:33,279 they sent it out to Parabon Nanola. I don't know if your listeners know 338 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:40,880 about Parabond. Yeah. Yeah, So Parabon they put this DNA into jet 339 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,880 Match, and before you know it, they've given Steve these leads to follow. 340 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,319 And it's a case involved in a shopkeeper who was murdered inside his store 341 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:53,599 in Comas, Maryland, back in the early nineties. The cops could just 342 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:59,640 not solve this case. The DNA just was not hitting anywhere. They didn't 343 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,599 have any suspects. But suddenly Steve starts working on it. And he finds 344 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:07,519 a family tree that seems to be working. And a long story short, 345 00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:11,400 they zeroed in on the killer's brother. First, they went and talked to 346 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,960 him, determined that he wasn't the killer, and then they went down to 347 00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:19,559 Virginia Beach and they got DNA from his brother and it was a direct match. 348 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:25,440 And he was married to a retired DC police officer, and he was 349 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,079 working as a mechanic. And from what we can tell, he had never 350 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:33,799 committed another crime where he was caught for or prosecuted for. So it was 351 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:37,880 as if he had committed this one horrible crime, killing the shopkeeper, and 352 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,440 then never did anything again. That case was such a mystery too, because 353 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:47,559 do we ever figure out like a motive for that particular homicide. I remember 354 00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:49,880 when that case broke a couple of years ago. I'm trying to think of 355 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,200 his name right now. Right now, I'm drawn a blank on the victim's 356 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:57,559 name, but I interviewed his daughter. Lovely, lovely person. Basically, 357 00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:02,599 it was a robbery on bad He had gone into the shop, the shopkeeper 358 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,640 was working by himself. He went to buy a bottle of wine, and 359 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:11,599 then he smashed the bottle and used it as a weapon to get money, 360 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:17,480 and in the course of stabbing the shopkeeper, he cut himself right and then 361 00:25:17,519 --> 00:25:21,240 as he was leaving the shop, his blood was dripping out the door. 362 00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:25,039 The police knew that this was the killer's blood, They knew it was his 363 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,960 DNA, but they couldn't get anywhere right, nothing in code is now and 364 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,039 then Steve solves the unsolvable. It's really incredible. Yeah, and he's done 365 00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:37,440 it with a few other cases too. Yeah. I've actually spoken to Steve 366 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:45,559 over the phone. A super nice guy and incredibly modest about solves in his 367 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,319 own capability. And the guy's actually a rock star. Yeah, Oh, 368 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,319 he totally is. In fact, when I interviewed him for murder in the 369 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,599 safe place, he got emotional. He said he thought he was getting help 370 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,000 from upstairs. And I said, and he started to get choked up, 371 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,319 and I said, so you think a higher being is helping you, Steve? 372 00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:08,960 He goes, I do. Yeah, pretty incredible, it really is. 373 00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:15,319 Maybe he's right very well. Could pay you're listening to Mind over Murder. 374 00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:22,720 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here 375 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:27,680 at Mind over Murder. You've been in the journalism business for good amount of 376 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,559 time now, and I know that you've seen the technology for solving crimes just 377 00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:37,279 explode, especially over the last couple of years with forensic genetic genealogy. Do 378 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:45,240 you foresee yourself continuing to do crime podcasting and crime reporting and what do you 379 00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:48,680 foresee continuing to happen with the way that we solve and report on crimes. 380 00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:53,160 I can't wait to get another one going. I just gotta get the right 381 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:59,079 one because I need six episodes for a series. You can't just do it 382 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,640 with the one or two. You really need to have a story that will 383 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,640 get people to jump from one episode to the next one. So I have 384 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,359 some ideas, but nothing SOLIDI just yet. When I interviewed Todd Williams for 385 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:15,920 episode nine of Unknown Subject, Todd said that he's telling everybody in the DC 386 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:21,240 Police Department that will listen to him that genetic genealogy is the future. Yeah, 387 00:27:21,319 --> 00:27:23,759 and that this is how we're going to solve the coldest of crimes. 388 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,839 And I can't agree with them more. I'm fascinated by it, and the 389 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,200 fact that my first two podcasts for WTOP involved genetic genealogy just to thrill from 390 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,519 me to be able to explain to people how it works, why it works, 391 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:44,160 why it's not an infringement on people's privacy. That's what I love being 392 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,960 able to do is these podcasts allow you to get down into the nitty gritty 393 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,240 and explain things. There's no cut off, there's no Paul, you can't 394 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,519 go longer than that. We've got it. And so I interviewed this guy, 395 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,359 John Fitzgerald, who is a former topic with the Montgomery County Police. 396 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,920 He's now the chief of police and the Chevy Chase Police Department. He took 397 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,640 an interest in genetic genealogy because he saw a few years ago there were these 398 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:15,079 Maryland at least one Maryland state legislator who wanted to legislate it out. Yeah, 399 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,319 they moved it. There are people in Annapolis that have completely moved in 400 00:28:19,319 --> 00:28:22,960 the wrong direction. Yeah. And he saw that and he was like, 401 00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:26,920 oh boy, I gotta jump in here. And he did, and he 402 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,960 was able to convince this legislator that his position on this was wrong because he 403 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,200 wanted an outlaw it completely to remember that. So so they there is there 404 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,400 is a law now in place that detectives have to follow if they want to 405 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,400 use genetic genealogy to solve a crime, they have to get an approval from 406 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,920 a judge, and so it's it's just another step for these detectives who are 407 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,400 trying to solve goal cases. Anyway, John, I was able to take 408 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:59,519 my interview with John and let him explain from beginning to end why it's important 409 00:28:59,559 --> 00:29:03,119 and why it's not an infringement on privacy, and it just fit perfectly into 410 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:08,359 the podcast. Do you think those decisions made by some of the Maryland legislature 411 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:15,799 will impact solving cases using investigative genetic genealogy in a negative way. I stay 412 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:21,839 in touch with detectives who are trying to use genetic genealogy, and I think 413 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,480 if this was a barrier at this point, I'd be hearing about it, 414 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:30,480 and I'm not. I know that there's detectives who have a stack of cases, 415 00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:34,240 and my understanding of it, at least the initial approach to it is 416 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,200 that they have to go to a judge with I've described it as an affidavit, 417 00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:41,799 but they have not described it that way. They've described it as just 418 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:45,880 an explanation of what they want to do and then they just have to have 419 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,720 a judge sign it. It's not like a search warrant where you're looking for 420 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:55,359 probable cause. At this point, I haven't heard any kind of adverse moves 421 00:29:55,559 --> 00:30:00,359 by legislators in Annapolis to put a damper on this kind of investigator work. 422 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,480 But I'll tell you this, the more that you can highlight the successes of 423 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,720 it, I think the less these legislators are going to have any kind of 424 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,359 backing. Is there a case that you're particularly familiar with that you would like 425 00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:17,799 to see genetic genealogy used on that hasn't had the treatment done to it yet, 426 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:23,000 Kristen, that's a loaded question. She's good at though. I know 427 00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:27,039 that they're working on cases right now with genetic genealogy. But let me tell 428 00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:32,279 you about one case that I did back in October. I have a good 429 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:36,960 friend who's a retired assistant US attorney here in the District of Columbia. We 430 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,079 have to use the US Attorney's office because we're not a state and so we 431 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:45,799 don't have an elected prosecutor. Her name is Deb Signs, and Deb told 432 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:48,880 me, she goes, I really want you to shine a light on this 433 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,359 case. She put me in touch with the brother of one of the victims, 434 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:56,319 and then she gave me some other information that was public record. She 435 00:30:56,359 --> 00:31:00,400 wasn't doing anything on tour, she was just steering me in the right direction. 436 00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:04,839 It was two women who were murdered inside the same apartment building, on 437 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:11,200 the same floor, two or three doors apart, three years apart, both 438 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:17,160 killed in the both killed in the same manner. Now. One of the 439 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,359 women, her name was Flo Esselene. She was a Harvard graduate and she'd 440 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,960 come down to DC to work for a law firm. And then there was 441 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,519 another woman named Greta Rainey, and Greta was killed after flow. I started 442 00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:33,519 talking to Bernard, FLOE's brother, and he really wanted to do a story 443 00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:37,720 and we talked for weeks about it and how we could put it together because 444 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,920 it was just going to be there is DNA, but it hasn't gotten anywhere. 445 00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:47,400 And then it was serendipitous. Bernard, as we're talking, gets a 446 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,400 phone call from a cold case detective in the DC Police Department and he goes, 447 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,079 look, I've got some information. We want to tell a story. 448 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,559 We want to get this information out. I know they knew that I was 449 00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:01,920 talking to Bernard, because sure exactly how I think. I emailed questions about 450 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,519 it and so the cops in the cold case and it knew that I was 451 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:09,720 looking into the case. Turns they took the DNA from both of these cases, 452 00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:14,480 which that's a whole another story that goes down a rabbit hole. But 453 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,799 it was very hard to get the DNA because they were on slides from the 454 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:22,599 Medical Examiner's office from years ago. How far back in these cases go, 455 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:27,640 Yeah, some mid to early eighties. The fascinating thing was, and Sara 456 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,079 serendipitous, as I say, is that while I was talking to Bernard about 457 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:34,599 doing a story, the cold case detective calls Bernard and says, hey, 458 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:38,559 I've got some news. We not only have gotten profiles from the DNA, 459 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:44,119 which we hadn't had before, but we put it into codis and they linked. 460 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:50,640 So we now know the same man killed Greta and killed Flow and they 461 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,680 don't know who it is. It's another unknown subject. Yeah, and there 462 00:32:54,960 --> 00:33:00,640 that's another that's one of those genetic genealogy cases. It's a perfect case for 463 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,000 genetic genealogy. Yeah, but like I said, it goes just goes down 464 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,440 to rabbit hole if I try to explain it. But it was DNA that 465 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,519 they never had put into profiles. For years and years and years because they 466 00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:15,319 were on slides and they were afraid to open the slides. That's my slides 467 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:17,759 from the Medical Examiner's office back when they were doing rape kids, before anybody 468 00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:22,920 knew that you could get DNA. So when the cold case detectives started looking 469 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,799 into these cases and realized they had these slides, they finally opened them and 470 00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:34,720 then linked the cases, and they had workable DNA samples from those slides cases 471 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,440 stretching back into the nineteen eighties. We've reminded our listeners when we talk about 472 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:44,319 the Colonial Parkway murders and my sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebeccadowski's murders, as 473 00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:47,160 well as the other murders in the Colonial Parkway cases. Those cases stretched from 474 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:52,559 eighty six to eighty nine, and even then DNA was barely making it out 475 00:33:52,599 --> 00:33:55,759 of the lab at that point. Those of us that are living now in 476 00:33:55,799 --> 00:34:00,079 twenty twenty three, you hear about these things and I think they've always been 477 00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:05,200 around, but we're here to remind them, Yes, these things have not 478 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,199 been around that long. We're talking about science that's only thirty or so years 479 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:15,280 old. Any case like these two related cases for flow and Greta's murder. 480 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,559 Very strange to have two women killed in the same apartment building a couple of 481 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:23,880 years aparted. There's a linkedge right there, even before they had the codis 482 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,760 hit. Very strong chance, even before they linked them scientifically, that those 483 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,280 two assaults were somehow related. Well, it might be your next podcast right 484 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,079 there. You may have hit on something, you know. I can't find 485 00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:39,559 Gretta Rainey's family. We don't know where they are. She's oh, I 486 00:34:39,559 --> 00:34:43,159 haven't been able to get that. And as when you're doing these stories, 487 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,960 you gotta have a family, but you gotta have Yeah, it's somebody that 488 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:50,960 can put the emotion into it. And Bernard is a wonderful guy and flows 489 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,159 brother flos brother, right, yeah, and so yeah, he had been 490 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:58,599 in touch with several people over the years asking about his sister's case, and 491 00:34:58,599 --> 00:35:01,639 it talked to lots of people like who are constantly wondering what's happened to my 492 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,159 case, to my sister's case, mother's case, mother's case, And occasionally 493 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,840 they come to me and then I make calls and try and help them out 494 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,960 and see what there is out there. And with Bernard, because Deb signs 495 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,599 the AUSA, she's retired now. Because she told me to look into it 496 00:35:17,639 --> 00:35:21,400 and put me in touch with Bernard. That's how we were able to put 497 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,559 it all together. So we did that story, I think back in October, 498 00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:28,559 and so you can google it and look it up. Rainey sounds like 499 00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:31,880 an unusual enough name that you might be able to find some relatives somewhere. 500 00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:36,800 I talked to the cold case detective about it. His name is Dan Whale, 501 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,760 and he's been there a long time. He said that they found they 502 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,159 think they found a brother in law living somewhere down in the Norfolk area, 503 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,440 but they haven't been able to make a connection. And that was back in 504 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,840 October when I was talking to him about that. So it could be that 505 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,400 they've made some connection. Yea, until you can get a family member halfway 506 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,320 there with Bernard at least able to speak for Flo's family. Oh yeah, 507 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:07,199 definitely. Yeah. She was a really young woman. She graduated from Harvard 508 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:08,559 and came down to work for a law firm. She was working as a 509 00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:12,880 paralegal, and she just she's one of these young ladies they just wanted to 510 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,320 go off on her own. She grew up in New York. Now here's 511 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,559 a little twist of the story that I'll throw at you. One of the 512 00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:23,760 reasons why this case got so much attention at the time is because three other 513 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:29,920 women from the same law firm all ended up being murdered. Is this in 514 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,400 Virginia or in No. Two here in DC and one in Prince George's County. 515 00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:39,280 But they are not related and we know that for a fact, because 516 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,599 yeah, so we know now because of DNA that the same person killed Floe 517 00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:50,719 and Greta Rainey. This other person, her name was Katherine Schilling. There 518 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:57,280 was a man named Donald Gates who was railroaded by prosecutors using junk science to 519 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,320 prosecute him send him to prison for over twenty years for killing Katherine Shilling. 520 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,800 And they found DNA in that case and tested it and determined that he was 521 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,639 not the killer who was let out of present and he wanted a lawsuit. 522 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,960 Because of the lawsuit, the US Attorney's office decided to see if they could 523 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,480 find the real killer in Codis And this was a little complicated that the prosecutor 524 00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:21,400 told me he had to do a keyboard search, and I'm not sure what 525 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,079 that is. But in any event, they found the real killer of Katherine 526 00:37:24,119 --> 00:37:28,599 Schilling. But he's dead. So they know that a different man killed Katherine 527 00:37:28,639 --> 00:37:31,000 Schilling, and they know a different man killed Flow. And then there's a 528 00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:36,679 third woman. They believed that she was killed during a robbery outside an apartment 529 00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:39,960 in Prince George's county. So the three are not related. But for years 530 00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:45,159 it was the talk of chatter amongst people about how three women who all worked 531 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:51,039 for the same law firm ended up getting murdered. It does seem awfully strange. 532 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:57,360 I would imagine that sometimes you do have detectives, current or retired detectives 533 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,159 that would like you to explore in cases that have stuck. Oh definitely, 534 00:38:01,519 --> 00:38:06,639 Oh absolutely, that was the case with Flow for sure. Dan Whalen, 535 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,800 when the commander in charge of cold case found out that I was looking into 536 00:38:10,119 --> 00:38:15,400 the murder, he told the cold case detective and then for weeks Bernard and 537 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,719 I were just chatting and we hadn't come up with an idea on how we 538 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,320 were going to tell the story. And then when they got the connection with 539 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,000 the DNA through CODIS and linking those two murders, Dan Whalen said to Bernard. 540 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,840 He called Bernard and he said, this case needs to have some light, 541 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,719 and I know Paul is working on this case with you, would you 542 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,079 do a story? And Bernard was of course, so he came down in 543 00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:40,840 October and I interviewed him, and I interviewed the commander of homicide, and 544 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,559 then we put the story together. So was this a radio story or a 545 00:38:45,599 --> 00:38:49,199 television story? Oh? Is it television story for Channel four? Yeah, 546 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,840 we'd love to see that. Boy, this sounds fascinating and I was not 547 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,599 familiar with this case until you started telling us the story. Yeah, I'll 548 00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:00,159 send you a link if you just type a flow name. It's it's a 549 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:05,840 Haitian name, so it's hard to spell, but it's pronounced Florence Esslin. 550 00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:09,000 And in fact, if you just if you think, if you google Florence 551 00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:15,239 Esseln and Queta Rainey and Paul Wagner, it'll come out. It'll come up. 552 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,320 Will include that in the show notes for this interview as well. This 553 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:24,239 is fascinating. Yeah, it's amazing that these two women could be connected in 554 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:30,360 death. And this sounds like this would be perfect for genetic genealogy. Oh. 555 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:36,400 Absolutely, Like I said, the genetic genealogy is solving the unsolvable cases 556 00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:40,519 that the detectives have been beaten their heads against a wall over for years and 557 00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:46,480 sudden and suddenly this new technique comes along, and wow, it's just fascinating. 558 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,800 Of all of the cases that you've covered, and you've given us quite 559 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,880 a few at this point, is there one in particular that has such a 560 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,519 stranglehold on you that you're never going to be able to forget it, that 561 00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:00,840 you'll always have a place in your heart for it. There are a number 562 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,280 of them. Some have been solved, and it's mainly because of the connections 563 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,760 that I made with family members. But there's a murder mystery here in DC 564 00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:14,400 that fascinates everyone. As I mentioned off the top here, it's about to 565 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,920 become a peacock documentary, and it's about the murder of a young lawyer named 566 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,400 Robert Juan. And it's spelled wo Any Robert Juan. And Robert was murdered 567 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:30,039 inside a home in the DuPont Circle area back in two thousand and six. 568 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:34,719 I believe it was he was stabbed to death and there were three people inside 569 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,239 the home at the time that he was stabbed. No one has been charged 570 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,719 with Robert's murder, but the three men who lived in the house, who 571 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:45,840 were all a polyamorous family. They were charged with obstruction of justice and a 572 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:51,480 charge with conspiracy and tampering with evidence. I believe too. Anyway, it 573 00:40:51,559 --> 00:40:55,880 was a sensational trial, sensational trial. It was just one of those trials 574 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,440 I covered the Chandra Levy trial. This one was just off the charts with 575 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:05,280 people's interest in it. And anyway, they chose a bench trial rather than 576 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,800 a jury trial, and they were they were acquitted. The story is so 577 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:13,039 involved, it's just it's so involved. I can't even encapsulate it for you. 578 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,719 There is a podcast out there that I did called The Mystery on Swan 579 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:21,280 Street, and then I am also the narrator of this upcoming documentary now I 580 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,400 don't know if they've named it yet, but I recently did some more work 581 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:29,639 on it and it's coming from Peacock. That case is when you talk with 582 00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:34,000 fellow reporters who've been around forever, and the Robert wien Cost case always comes 583 00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:37,960 up, and people just are fascinated with tossing ideas around on what happened. 584 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:43,000 In fact, there was an audible podcast done on it back I think two 585 00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:45,679 years ago. So yeah, there's a different one than you did, a 586 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,519 different one than I did. I took part in it. I was interviewed. 587 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,079 I was interviewed for it, and I don't remember the name of it, 588 00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:54,079 to be honest with you, but I'm sure we could find that case. 589 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,719 The prosecutor that had that case, he feels like the judge in the 590 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,119 case, Lynn Leibowitz, was her name. She wrote a seventeen page opinion 591 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,679 on why she couldn't convict the men, and he feels as if that she 592 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:13,480 could have convicted them, but she said that she couldn't get past the reasonable 593 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,920 doubt and so she acquitted them. And there have been several stories examining it. 594 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,280 It's been all over the newspapers, magazines, and I guess probably the 595 00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:27,800 most intriguing aspect of the case is that the police believed that the knife that 596 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,639 was used and found on a table night table next to Robert was a plant 597 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,039 knife. And that was the big fight in this case, was whether or 598 00:42:36,039 --> 00:42:39,519 not that knife was a plant knife. But prosecutors couldn't convince Judge Leebowitz was 599 00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:45,840 the case. So these guys walked and nobody knows what happened in that house 600 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,440 that night. How strange. Oh, it's a very strange case, very 601 00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:55,079 strange case. It's also thinking how often do murder cases end up as bench 602 00:42:55,159 --> 00:43:00,679 trials? As I can tell you a little bit about that. So these 603 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,360 men, these three men, were gay men, and they lived a pally 604 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,079 polyamorous life. They were into bondage, some stuff that church ladies may not 605 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:15,639 have found to be too. Yeah, it's okay, Yeah, so a 606 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:19,760 hard time getting a fair trial. Yeah, So the defense said we want 607 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,039 a bench trial, and the prosecutors they could have challenged it, but they 608 00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:28,360 also thought about it and said, you know what, it's probably true that 609 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,800 DC is filled with these Baptist women who would sit there in the jury box 610 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:37,440 and maybe have a tough time with that. Very interesting, what a strange 611 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,960 story though, And it appears that this poor man was murdered and no one 612 00:43:42,039 --> 00:43:45,440 was ever held to account. No, but there's no double jeopardy here because 613 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,559 they weren't charged with murder. And Glenn Kirshner is his name. I'm sure 614 00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:53,960 you've seen him on MSNBC. Glenn was a prosecutor in that case. So 615 00:43:54,159 --> 00:44:00,199 he feels that after this documentary airs that maybe something will loosen up, will 616 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:01,880 finally be able to find out what happened. But here's the key part. 617 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,039 Of the story. Robert is a straight man and he was married. He 618 00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:13,320 worked for Radio Free was a Radio Radio Free Asia. He and Joe Price, 619 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,239 who lived in the house, were good friends from William and Mary. 620 00:44:15,559 --> 00:44:20,559 He had a late night interview with people at Radio Free Asia. He had 621 00:44:20,599 --> 00:44:23,199 just taken a job there as a general counsel. So he asked Joe if 622 00:44:23,199 --> 00:44:27,119 he could stay over at the house. And because he wanted to go to 623 00:44:27,159 --> 00:44:30,280 this meeting, and then he had another one very early the next morning, 624 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,039 so rather than go home to his house in Oakton, Virginia, he asked 625 00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:37,400 Joe if he could stay there. And so that's the twist in this case. 626 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,159 And that was straight and the three men living in the house are gay. 627 00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:45,760 Robert, according to prosecutors and police, was sexually assaulted before he was 628 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:52,760 stabbed. Strange. Oh yeah, it's crazy case. Well, it's probably 629 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,079 the most fascinating murder cases in DC that hasn't been solved. Amazing, And 630 00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:02,760 so this will ultimately be a peacock Will this be a multi part true criming? 631 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,559 My understanding is it's a two part hour long documentary where all these people 632 00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:14,559 are interviewed. I'm the narrator because I was the reporter they asked to help 633 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:17,719 them with the case. So I sat for a whole day being interviewed, 634 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,960 and then I did some more work on it recently, doing some voiceovers. 635 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,920 It's a true true crime mystery, but they stick to the facts. It's 636 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,559 not. One of the understanding is they're not sensationalizing it at all all. 637 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:35,840 They're sticking to the facts about everything in the case. It's two hours and 638 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,039 I'm not exactly sure when it's coming out, because I think it was already 639 00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:42,519 it was supposed to be out back in September or something like that. Does 640 00:45:42,559 --> 00:45:45,760 Glenn Kirshner participate as the former He does? He does, yeah, Oh 641 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,119 yeah, it's funny. I see him now doing political commentary and that sort 642 00:45:50,159 --> 00:45:52,360 of thing. I know he was a prosecutor though, because he does reference 643 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:57,599 it. He's interviewed in this documentary. And I interviewed him for the original 644 00:45:57,639 --> 00:46:00,679 podcast that I did on the story the Mystery on swan On Street that it 645 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,840 did for Fox five. So I in fact, that was the first time 646 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:07,159 Glenn ever sat down to talk about the case because he had just retired, 647 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,800 and I called him up and asked him if he would take part, and 648 00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:15,239 he agreed. So it was the first time anybody had interviewed him, because 649 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,320 when you're working for the u Asttorney's Office, you're not allowed to do interviews. 650 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,480 But once he retired, he was a fair game, Paul. For 651 00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:27,039 anybody who wants to locate all of your various podcast endeavors, where can they 652 00:46:27,079 --> 00:46:30,159 find all of your podcasts? You can find him on any platform anywhere you 653 00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:36,440 get a podcast. It's called American Nightmare Series. And then there are three 654 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,239 podcasts in the series. The first one is called twenty two Hours that was 655 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,800 done by another reporter, and then I did Murder in a Safe Place, 656 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,079 and the most recent one Unknown Subject, which is nine episodes long, and 657 00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:52,159 so you can binge on it if you like. So, Yeah, any 658 00:46:52,199 --> 00:46:55,239 anywhere you get podcasts, just type in You can either just type in wtop 659 00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,360 or American Nightmare Series. You'll find it. Thank you so much for us 660 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:01,800 today, Paul. We really appreciate it, and we look forward to having 661 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:07,559 you back to talk about the next iteration of American Nightmare. That was fascinating 662 00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:09,440 discussions. Thank you for having me. That's going to do it for this 663 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:22,519 episode of Mind over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 664 00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:29,599 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 665 00:47:29,639 --> 00:47:35,000 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 666 00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:39,079 theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 667 00:47:39,199 --> 00:47:45,440 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 668 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,360 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 669 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,000 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five 670 00:47:53,079 --> 00:47:58,000 six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.