We are heading to Washington, d C. Where Aaron Hawley, wife of
Senator Junkshall from Missouri, is at the center of a Supreme Court case concerning
the abortion pill. Mif for Pristoe Helen, what can you tell us about
the story and the ongoing battle of bodily autonomy and female politicians actively working against
their own interests. Let us welcome to the christ So nationalist ring. Aaron
Holly with third of the American populists in support of having access to birth control.
Holly thinks she knows better. Aaron Holly, wife of US Center Josh
Holly, and Yale Law School graduate, is one of the faces of conservative
Christian white women who are pushing against the availability of birth control prescriptions. Holly
is another right ring grifter who is using the benefits which feminism and privilege gave
her to speak in front of Congress against the health decisions of American citizens.
This article's title is Aaron Holly, The Woman Arguing Against the Aborshi Pill,
published by The New York Times and Yahoo News by Elizabeth Elizabeth Dyas and a
Abby Van Sickle on March twenty six, twenty four. Okay man, this
is a running theme on the show aligning with the oppressors to take away the
rights of others, are defending or you know, defending the oppressors that do
these things. What I found interesting about Holly's article and her child what the
article mentions about our childhood that she was surrounded by trail blazers, strong independent
women, and due to the privileges and opportunities that were afford to her.
Because of those women, she doesn't strong. She doesn't think other women should
have the same opportunities. She is rich, she is white, she is
educated, and probably had a shitload of help along the way, And this
feeds into a false narrative that you can as long as you have you know,
an education, you have the money, you you know, you can
take care of the babies. But I'm sure she has a nanny and she
has the finances to you know, have these things to kind of help it
along the way. And we all know this is not the reality for most
people that identify as women in this country. So it's a problem. Yeah,
it definitely is a problem, especially being able to use your privilege to
say, okay, yes, I'm going to be able to come up in
a particular area where I can have the education, have the privilege, have
the money, and still be able to balk and push against this particular thing
that could be very devastating to other people who are able to have children.
But I am wanting to come to you, Jonathan. You mention this being
an example of an Also, Helen has said people in an oppressed group working
against Sarah oppressors to further degrade their own interests. Can you talk a bit
more about that here, I'm mute, still on mute. Okay, that's
the first one. Anyway, there are several points is that the you know
this this comes down to a form of future shock, and I think a
lot of zealot and I'm not sure about her because I'm not her. But
she was raised by her mother and on a ranch where the foundations of her
great great great grandmother's house were still on the proper. So she had fairly
independent, powerful women in her life. But they also were extremely religious as
she is. But you know, they actually told her that they weren't going
to pay for her to go to college, and she went ahead and got
a scholarship. She went to one university, I think it was either Michigan
or Montana, can't remember, and then ended up in Yale Law School after
she transferred to Yale for the last couple of degree. So she's went to
a you know, a big name law school and ended up you know,
eventually here. But you know, from Ranch to East Coast society must have
been a culture show. But you know, people who are trying to make
everybody believe the way they do so that they can validate their own beliefs.
We've talked about a lot, and that's one of the problems I see,
and that's causing her cause other people harmed, and that's not just because of
that. But she thinks, and I'm sure she really truly believes she's doing
the right thing by upholding the value she learned in a very rural area with
you know, not so good societal norm So yeah, and so now I'm
thinking that, you know, how do people get to where they're opposing their
own interests? And that, to me is something that needs to be probably
further discussed. But they I really think that it's just she has a big
conflict between what she actually is experiencing and what she believes should be right.
I hear that. I hear that conflict also comes into certain people when they
are imploring their cognitive dissonance when it comes to maybe what they taught to currently
what they believe. But I want to move on to u Eli. Now.
I know that you talked a little bit more about Aaron's work in overturning
the Robe Way case for Adots versus the women health of Jackson, Mississippi,
and also on three oh three Creative, So can you talk a little bit
more about her involvement in those cases and maybe where it kind of like led
her to what she's doing now. Yeah, So I'll start with three or
three Creative because just to get it out of the way, because it's not
really related to our topic today. Three or three Creative via Alanis, I'll
start there. I first thing, first, I don't know who Elinus is.
Couldn't figure it out. But three or three Creative LLC is the business
of a web developer based in Colorado named Lorie Smith. She wanted to move
into developing wedding websites, but did not want to be asked to create a
wedding website for a same sex couple. She believes that well, this is
straight from the syllabus of the case written by the Supreme Court. This is
on Supreme Court dot gov. Miss Smith worries that Colorado will use the Colorado
Anti Discrimination Act to compel her, in violation of the First Amendment, to
create websites celebrating marriages she does not endorse. To clarify her rights, Miss
Smith filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction to prevent the state from forcing her to
create websites celebrating marriages that defy her belief that marriage should be reserved to unions
between one man and one woman. Long story, short, six to three
decision they upheld. They determined that Colorado cannot compel the designer to create work
that violates her values. So Miss Smith was represented by Alliance Defending Freedom,
for whom Aaron Hawley is the senior counsel as well as the VP of Center
for Life and Regulatory Practice. Which means something. I don't know what it
is, but that means it and so. Dobbs Versus Jackson Women's Health Organization
is the now famous case that overturned the Roe v. Wade decision, which
prohibited states from banning access to elective abortion services. The Dobbs case returned the
state's returned to the states the option to allow or not allow elective abortion services
within their borders. From Axios dot Com. Aaron Hawley's involvement in this case
was also through Alliance Defending Freedom helping the state of Mississippi. And this is
a quote from the website draft merits and reply briefs for the Dobbs v.
Jackson case, and of the decision, Holly said, I'm so pleased.
It's a six' to three decision. The Supreme Court has taken the shackles
of row off the states. So this is essentially as a result of her
previous work and especially coming off of the Dobbs v. Jackson case and overturning
Roe v. Wade, She's kind of on like she's feeling really good about
herself and that's a really major thing. Like to her credit, that is
a significant accomplishment. If if that's you know, what you're attempting to accomplish,
then that's a really really significant step toward that. And so now she's
going to feel unstoppable and she's going to feel like what she's doing here is
just a really really small step compared to overturning a you know, decades long
decision. From the Supreme Court over over fifty years, right, And it's
interesting that you actually mention how she said the shackle off of Roe v.
Wade almost like making it the decision to be able to have bodily autonomy a
slave to your mind. I don't know. I'm curious to hear what the
panelists think about when you hear that quote that Eli just said, you know,
the shackles off of Roe v. Wade, and basically the the imagery
that may come up in one's mind using those terms. What are your thoughts,
Helen, I want to come to you about that. And then Jonathan,
I want your thoughts. Well, I have wrong with that because she
was based she's basically for some reason things that taking the shackles off of roversus
Wait, which was giving people more freedom and more access to making health care
decisions for themselves, and basically comparing it to slavery, which is counterdictory and
confusing. And I am like, girl, you need to go back to
school because you guys learning to do It's a real problem. And I understand,
like if she is antichoice, you know, fine, but you don't
know better than half the population of the United States. I am so sorry
you don't. And yes, you have money, you have privilege, and
you're like, please let me be a very good steparate wife. Oh please,
God, I'll be a very good girl. And I'm like, I
am so sorry, honey, I am so sorry. But just because you
want to be a nice little Christian wife and also haven't be married to a
senator and have some boogle bucks. Fine, but your education does again,
doesn't doesn't give the right to think you know better than other people's minds.
And again, I think you should learn the definition of slavery. I think
would be a good thing for you. Yeah, no, learning learning the
definition of slavery and maybe like looking at how that language could be completely problematic,
I think that you should learn that. Jonathan, what say you when
you hear those words that she has made you're on mute again? Well,
just somebody was going to do that, right. And one of the things
about this is, you know shackles, Yeah, that's cringe. And the
reason it is is because it's a propaganda move. You know, what you
do is you take what the other people are doing and you turn it around
and say that's what you're doing. And so you get the the bonafides of
your opposition, especially when your opposition is more popular than you are. So
it's like it's a marketing play, you know. Shackled you know, Roby
Wade shackled you to having the freedom to have abortions. Yeah right, okay,
and snow cones shackle you to having cold something on a hot day,
you know. I mean, it's so disingenuous, and it's so just topsy
turvy, you know. And I just do not understand how somebody with a
legal education as strict as hers what could actually say that and not inside cringe
herself for being so stupid. And yes, dear, I'm calling you stupid
because that was a stupid statement. Yeah, just because you want the sound
bites does not mean that you can go ahead and be ignorant on television.
Just what, Just educate yourself. If you want to be a trad wife
and you're on your ranch in Missouri, you go ahead and do that.
Don't think that you can force the rest of people with uteruses into the same
box you want to hide out in. Okay. Yeah, no, No,
you hit the nail on the head, especially when you're talking about this
position that she has placed herself in as a trad wife, stepford wife,
whatever you want to call it. Even though yes, she is educated,
Yes she was raised by her mother. Yes she probably even was around progressive
people growing up. However, she's kind of landed here into imbuing her values,
which is highly Christian, into how she is practicing you know, law,
and especially how she's trying to change policy. And I know, Eli,
you talked a bit more about that concerning the Christian values that she's really
trying to inject in other people's lives that may or may not necessarily agree with
her. Talk a little bit more about that. It will well. Essentially,
I have difficulty when people talk about Christian value is because my first response
is to define a Christian value, name for me, some moral stance that
can be taken as a Christian that cannot be taken as not a Christian.
I don't think there is one that exists, and I don't think there is
any moral principle or moral code that is exclusive to Christianity. I think we
observe moral behavior in non human animals, and that in and of itself,
I think animals are decidedly non religious, and that in and of itself kind
of just demonstrates that there is a non religious source for these values or ethics,
and so that phrasing in and of itself typically just really kind of drives
me up the wall because I just like nobody has ever that I have heard.
I'm sure these conversations have been had, but I've never heard anybody define
what is a Christian value and why is it uniquely Christian? Yeah, that's
so true. I mean, like a lot of times when people are using
this whole term like Christian value and trying to like equivocate that to like some
type of moral standard. To me, it fails, especially when you are
looking at maybe some of the standard ethical things that we all agree on as
human beings not innately Christian. If other societies especially have come to those same
conclusions, like it's usually not a good idea to go around murdering people,
It's usually not a good reason for you to go around stealing from people.
Yeah, so, I mean, like, so, how so like the
question? I don't know, it's not begging the question, but it raises
a question of Okay, so how did other societies come to these particular value
points or moral centers without necessarily imbuing a Christian value in it. You know,
I would have to say, like, even reading this particular article,
I kind of landed on Holly's unique perspective as a millennial Christian and mother adds
to the death of her advocacy efforts. Resonating with many people who happen to
be anti abortionate and I say anti abortion is because a lot of times that
we have talked about this is that when people say that they're pro life,
that is a misnomer. No, you are not pro life. You are
anti abortion. Because if there are other issues that we will bring up that
would be more on the nose of being pro life, like support for families,
social programs that would actually give people more money to buy food, have
fair and equal housing, have you a free education, medicare for all things
of that nature you balk against. So seeing so your pro life ends after
the baby is born, and so a lot of people are in those minds.
Now. Her argument before the Supreme Court reflects her deeply rooted faith and
trust in God's sovereignty, underscoring the intersection of her religious beliefs with her professional
pursuit. So there's no separation of church and state with this lady. It's
all enveloped in what she does. And while Holly's influence within her anti abortion
movement is significant, the outcomes of the case she argues before the Supreme Court
remains uncertain. Nevertheless, her stepfast commitment to defending conservative principles and also promoting
pro life agendas, and we use that in air quote actually highlights the enduring
influence of faith and values in shaping legal discourse and policy decision. And unfortunately,
with this legal discourse influencing influenced by faith and values, it definitely blurs
the line between separation of church and state. So I just want to go
ahead and just give my panel the final say. I would like to get
you guys as final final thoughts, rather starting with you Helen, then Eli,
and then we're going to round it up with you Jonathan. I do
want to say that Holly works for the Alliance Defending Freedom organization and they are
listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center because they support recriminalizing
LGBTQ plus people from engaging in consensual sex acts and wants to make being LGBTQ
for that being an adult to be sterilized, which they supported another country.
So if you happen to be trans you could get sterilized. This is something
that the linees defending freedom. Okay, I find the freedom in that so
ironic that this woman is a part of. So she is a Christo naturalist.
She is fighting for the things that we are fighting against. And I
think it's disgusting. And again I'm tired of people aligning with their oppressors.
It's gross and disgusting. Please stop, it's going to be bad. Her
arguments that messi pristone is unsafe, and the testimony she's gotten from doctors it's
been what the term was it was used in the article, but it's inconsistent,
it's not substantial. The FDA has been extremely clear that mefipristone is safe.
Yet Aaron Holly is using the false claims that it isn't to push her
Christian values once again to get rid of what she sees as this horrendous sin
of abortion. Push these values into your life from the right arm of a
sitting US senator and at that from my neck of the backwards. And it's
not enough for them to just not do the thing that they don't like.
They have to make sure that you can't do it in the privacy of your
own medical appointment either. Aaron Holly is a person whose entire public identity sure
her professional identity, she's a lawyer, but her public identity she is a
mother, and her public identity centers around motherhood, and she sees abortions as
a threat to motherhood in general, and that's why she is so that's one
of the reasons she attacks abortion so strongly. And Jonathan, you muted,
sir, you mute it. No, I had my finger on it this
time. Her writings also kind of belie an awful lot of her attitude.
Her writings are actually discussed. One quote I have from her book is make
sure you focus on your husband, poor little feel sorry for her first book
title, A Christian Guide to Parenting kind of says it all. I have
not read it, but it kind of makes me cringe a little bit,
knowing what it probably says. I haven't and I'm not going to. I
don't like throwing up. I wish she could do the same as she preaches
and leave the adf and lawyering to men her superior. Now I'm going to
go wash my mouth out with soap. Well as skeptical humanists. We must
critically examine the implications of such activism on issues of bodily autonomy, gender equality,
and reproductive right, and while also acknowledging the profound influence of faith and
tradition on individuals like Aaron Hawley, we have to look at it with a
very fine, fine