I'm Casey Tanner and I'm Camille Lewis. And this is safe word. Safe
word is sex therapy unhinged because instead of getting a blank slate that's just here
to support you, we're telling you the details on our own sex lives,
relationships, identities, and more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy,
but we are a sex therapists and what you hear today may excite you.
Each week we tackle a thing related to sex, relationships, gender, and
more. This week we're diving into bisexuality. M M, yeah, yeah,
yeah, Kamil, you're bisexual. I am represent this is my playground.
I'm really excited to talk about this with you. I'm excited to learn
about this part of you. I feel like we don't always talk about you
in terms of your bisexuality. I think because we're just close and don't have
to talk about it that way. But I'm excited to hear about this part
of you. Me too, And I'm excited to hear about your bisexual era.
I did. I had a whole bisexual era that I do want to
talk about because I think a lot of people have had a bisexual era.
But I also think that that can be used against the bisexual community to invalidate
by identities. So yeah, let's talk today about how both can be true.
First, I don't know what mood I'm in today, but it is
more unhinged than usual. And so I wanted to tell you about this text
exchange I had with this guy. Give it to me, Okay, I'm
gonna pull it up so that I get it right. So basically, he
was sending me some pictures he's doing like a press run and he has this
picture with this really giant Teddy Bear and I was like, bring me this.
Then he sent little gifts of that teddy Bear and then he said,
would you ever wear one of these with your partner? And I said,
like for Halloween or on some furry shit could be home for Halloween. Obviously
not for Halloween. I don't know. I like, I don't, I
don't. I'm trying to clarify. And then he was like furry shit.
Before I could even answer, he goes, but I already know the answer.
Of course you would, And I was like, oh, you just
look like somebody who would wear a Teddy Bear outfit exactly. And I was
just like yeah, like I just run that's a compliment, I know.
I was like, am I giving? Like I would try anything because I
feel like that is true. You're giving exactly who you are. I was
like, hmm, how should I feel about this? But then I was
like, yeah, like bring it up. Yes, so that and now
my friends keep sending me Teddy Bear mojis and things, so y'all will be
the first to know I ever get it pop in furry style. Yeah,
please bring this back. Well, I'm really missing you right now because and
the listeners need to know that we just spent a week together and it was
so sweet. It was so amazing. It feels like it happened so quickly.
I feel like it was a week, but it was so fast.
Yeah, and I miss you and I miss that house and just like playing
in the water with our like water sign energy, just splashing about next trip
soon. Okay, Now for what we're actually here for. Oh yeah,
bisexuality. Wooo. Well. I feel like for me, bisexual is the
identity that really fits with me right now, and also when I think about
the history of my life and attraction, it fits the best for me.
Like should I not say names of elementary school crushes? I just remember in
elementary school, this girl, her name is Jasmine, that could be anybody,
and she was just like so hot to me, Like she was really
dark skinned and she had like this thick hair, always be an oppressed as
she was kind of mask. I loved her, I really did, and
I was like, I don't know what this is. I never really had
like conversations about sexuality. I'd think that that would be pretty rare thirty years
ago, however old I am. But then I also remember these two really
intense crushes, so it was Jasmine and Darren. When I think about what
attraction has meant for me historically, the first type of porn that I ever
watched was strictly lesbian porn when I would like stay up late and my aunties
and cousins houses and like they had all the channels and all the HBO stuff
after dark. I feel like, actually, more recently, I have stepped
into naming bisexuality as like my identity because I did feel which I think a
lot of folks feel, as queer imposter syndrome. What does this mean about
my dating history? What does it mean that I've primarily been in relationships with
men? Do I feel like this is enough when I know so deeply my
relationships with women, in my attraction to women is a really big part of
who I am and how I see sex and sexuality. And it's so interesting
because it's part of I guess my coming out story where my parents and I
are really close and my mom was like, so on your new website it
says bisexual does and we're close, but it's in the way of not sharing
every intimate detail about dating and sex. It's like I didn't tell you because
you wouldn't care. Right. My dad has known best friends of mine for
decades and feels like, how is your friend? Uh? Never has called
any other people I've dated by their name, said the word boyfriend, said
the word partner right there. It's not actually like they're microaggressing you or your
partners. It's just that this is what closeness looks like for you. All.
Yeah, And I feel like that's like a black thing too, Like
black family is like how I was your little friend? Us their name and
I'm like, you know, right, there are names. I used to
date a guy named Michael. My dad's name is Michael. You know his
name? You know his name. It's a power moves it is, and
it's just like we just we don't do all of that. Yeah, no,
I think that makes sense. That's my vibe. Shout out to Jasmine
and Darren. I hope y'all are doing well. I'm dead. When I
think about my bisexual era, which I've never called it that before, but
I'm really loving it right now. Well, first, I think about how
much pressure there is as a queer person, probably any person, to have
like a cohesive narrative about your sexuality. And I think I really wanted that
at first, and I was like, okay, so I so I was
acting straight, and then I thought maybe I also like women. So I
started dating men and women. I thought I still liked men. Then I
realized I only like women. So now I'm a lesbian and that for you
know, in my maybe ten years ago, that felt like a cohesive narrative
that was easy for people to understand, and probably you know, it makes
sense that I wanted that people were having a very hard time understanding me.
I wanted something simple. I think that's okay, But I love that now
that I have more queer confidence, there's more room for nuance in that narrative
that you know, probably I was bisexual, Like I think that's actually just
accurate. I wasn't faking my relationships with men during that time in my life.
I was exploring both, and ultimately things shifted, and I've lately felt
like dating men hasn't been feeling as aligned for me. But I definitely had
a bisexual era. And the most epic moment of that era I can think
of is when I was a senior in college. I had kind of been
seeing this man, I'd kind of been seeing this woman. I was interested
in both, like your situation, except for as an adult, and I
went to this improv show in Chicago, lots of big improv scene in Chicago.
I was an obnoxious theater kid, so and they're like, does anyone
want to come on stage and tell us about, you know, about their
day. I was like, me, me, me, me MEI so
that called me up. I told them about how I'm like trying to decide
between these two people with two differ French genders, and then they proceeded to
act out dream sequence based off of my bisexuality. That was a zombie apocalypse
where on one side of the stage was a male zombie and the other side
of the stage was a woman zombie and they were both trying to eat me.
That was, to me, the best representation of my bisexuality. I
love that. I feel like I really relate what you said about having a
narrative around your sexuality because I feel like even when I was talking, I
was like, how do I make this make sense? Right? Then?
How do I like share this and how do I make this so that people
will resonate with it when it's like it's not even something that I fully have
like beautiful, artsy language around And I think that sometimes there can be pressure
for that. I think that's maybe pressure that comes with a lot of different
marginalized identities. Is like I have to be able to make you understand this,
whether or not that's authentic for me. But yeah, like, why
can't we just be messy? Part of what I was thinking as I was
sharing is how do I talk about this without reinforcing the myth that bisexuality is
a phase? Yeah? Yeah, because that's why I loved the word era
that you used, because phase, to me, is this invalidating word that
says this is transient, potentially something you choose something to quote unquote grow out
of but era is like, this is what's authentic, and I'm open to
what's authentic acts whether it's this or something else. I love that language.
When I was in middle school, there was this girl, her name was
Gia. I'm just referencing to all the people. She was out as bisexual,
and I was like mesmerized by this girl. I probably had a crush
on her. But I think everybody lay up the phase part of it,
or like a gateway into straight this and we think about gender at least like
from a stereotypical perspective, bisexuality for women has been talked about is like this
is just a phase until you're straight, and for men, this is a
just a phase until you're until you're a gay are queer. So I think
that that is something that comes up too well, which is actually, if
you think about it, just misogyny either way. At the end of the
day, you're just attracted to men for bot right period. All right,
let's get at these questions. Yeah, let's do it. Does bisexuality usually
develop after sexual trauma were distrussed with the opposite sex. I hear these sorts
of questions about trauma related sexuality or trauma related curiosities, kinks, BDSM,
queerness. It's hard to kind of talk about. On the one end,
it's like, no, this doesn't happen as a result of trauma, but
it also could be It could happen as a result of trauma and be like,
I had really fucked up experiences with this type of person, and I
want to do everything that I can to avoid it. And I think that
that can be incredibly adaptive and liberating. I agree. Potentially somebody has like
a natural proclivity to being attracted to multiple genders. Maybe they then have a
traumatic experience with one gender and they hadn't really taken the time to consider what
it would be like to explore something with another gender before, but now they
are. Maybe the trauma is opening the door to that exploration. It's not
that the queerness wasn't there before, but I think because of compulsive heteronormativity,
we're socialized not to think about it. But maybe the trauma makes you think
about it, and maybe that's what opens the door to exploring it. Trauma
doesn't make you queer, but potentially it opens the door to exploration that maybe
wouldn't have happened had the trauma not occurred. And that's true with sexuality after
trauma. That's true with life after trauma. Right. It opens all sorts
of doors to explore things we've hadn't before. And I also think if other
people are telling you that this is what's true, then to me, that's
just homophobia internalized by phobia purity culture at its finest right. People would love
to pathologize queerness and bisexuality and make it about something bad happened to you.
My parents did the same thing when I came out, and that is just
invalidating. That is nobody's story to make up and tell. If that's your
narrative, okay, but that's no one else's to project onto you say that.
Our next question is asking about balancing straight privilege and by visibility within straight
hit partnership. Any thoughts on this. Yeah, So, first off,
if you're buy, you're not in a straight hit partnership unless for some reason
that's the language that feels good to you. You might be in a partnership
that gets perceived as heterosexual a lot. And yeah, I think the word
balance is key. It is about holding both of those things. It's true,
it is true that invisibility is extremely real and it's extremely painful. It
has immense negative mental health outcomes associated with it. It's also true that being
in a relationship perceived as a straight relationship can come with its privileges, and
I think that one doesn't negate the other. They're both true. Does mean
that there is more thoughtfulness that might come into navigating certain queer spaces. But
I think every single queer person, regardless of what kind of relationship they're in,
should be extremely thoughtful about their positionality in queer spaces, right, not
just by people in hit relationships, but me maybe going into queer spaces that
are made for black and brown people. Right. There's so many any ways
that we should be thoughtful, and it's not silo to buy people in the
relationship that you're describing. I mean, I just simply agree. We're going
to take a quick break to talk about an amazing new show. Come as
you are. If you recognize that phrase, you're probably right. It's the
amazing Emily Nagaski as your host. This is a book that actually was just
my sex bible for the first many years that I was exploring my sexuality,
getting to know who I am It's a book I reference so many times when
I'm teaching clients about things like desire, arousal, non concordance. Completely changed
my life, and I imagine this podcast will too. Educator and best selling
author doctor Emily Nagaski answers questions about sex with the latest science on her new
podcast, Come As You Are Get a modern guide to sexual well being,
backed by groundbreaking research about desire, anatomy, orgasm, and much more.
In conversation with her producer Emily de punks cultural myths and flips the script on
everything you thought you knew about sex and sexuality. Listen to Come As you
Are wherever you get your podcasts and unlock your most pleasurable life in the bedroom
and beyond. How do some bisexual people manage grief and expression in monogamous hat
relationships similar vibe managing grief? A big part of it, at least for
me and my personal experience, is acknowledging it with my partner and naming it
as grief, because sometimes it's just like, why do I maybe feel this
dysregulation in my body? Why am I not really able to sink into comfort?
Like I think A part of it is in a monogamous relationship, Like,
what are the conversations that you're having that can validate and make your bisexuality
visible and to name that you're mourning it and having a partner that holds space
for that grief as not a rejection of them, but just a part of
your process. And I think that that's really important. I've been in relationships
that were damaging my sexuality and understanding of myself and my identity being and flowing
and telling my sis het boyfriend like, yeah, I'm bisexual and like being
like yeah, like I've said that, I've talked about threesomes that I've had,
I've talked about dating women, hooking up with women. So this is
something that he knew. But when I said that, He's like, no,
you're not, and I was just like I was like, yeah,
I am, And he just like completely invalidated it for me. And I
think that in that moment, like it just felt so confusing because I'm like,
here, I am having told you about like you've known this information about
me, but when I say this word, it's just really stricken down.
A big part of it would be having a partner who feels supportive to you
and a partner who can hold space for that and doesn't feel threatened by that,
and so that when you grieve and you can do so in a safe
space and also acknowledge the different ways that your bisexuality can be experienced even within
the context of this relationship, and there's ways to get creative around that.
Yeah, I completely agree sexuality is not confined to behavior. So your behavior
might be, you know, a monogamous sexual relationship within this partnership you're describing,
But what is the agreement that you and your partner partners have around talking
about attraction Because it could be really it could be really stifling if you,
let's see, you walk down the street, you see somebody of the same
gender that you find really, really hot. Do you feel permission to still
be within that part of view and to talk about that and to say that,
because that could be incredibly freeing. The other thing is that I think
that grief within monogamy is something that everybody experiences within monogamy, whether they know
it or not, or whether they feel permission to talk about it or not.
I'm obsessed with my partner, as you all know, and I still
have grief as we get more and more committed about never having a new relationship
energy stage again. And just because I'm not having grief about no longer dating
a particular gender doesn't mean that I don't have grief about dating somebody with a
particular orientation to sex, or dating somebody who's maybe in a more creative field.
Right. The experience of grief is one that is universal as it relates
to monogamy in a lot of ways. Yeah, And I really love how
you frame that too, because I think that because we are so socially obsessed
with monogamy that it's like, once you have it, you should cling onto
it and you've made it like you've arrived, right, And I think that
it's like that's so mythical because there is so much grief. That isn't the
only way to be in relationship or partnership, That isn't the only way to
love, That isn't the only way to fuck, right. Because it's also
this like huge invalidation that we use against buy folks by saying like you're you're
a flight risk. You're flight risk because you're always going to be missing what
you don't have, and it's like, okay, well, we're all fucking
flight risks. Then, because we're all we're all losing something when we choose
something else. That's just always going to be the case. Let's get into
this next question. Is it possible to be sexually attracted to women and romantically
attracted to men? Yes, of course it is. Attraction is multidimensional.
There's all sorts of ways we can be attracted to people. I don't think
we should expect ourselves to be attracted to one person or one gender the same
way that we're attracted to anyone else. I would probably describe myself in a
similar way. I think I am sometimes romantically attracted to men. I think
probably in a lot of ways, because I was socialized to think about romanticism
as this interaction between masculinity and femininity, and I think that's, you know,
somewhat ingrained. But I'm not sexually attracted to men. So yeah,
I mean, I absolutely think that this can be the case, and probably
is more common than not. I've written enough posts on Instagram about bisexuality that
I can anticipate like what the comments would be on our response. So I'm
going to say this, like caveat right here is do you think that there
are some cases where people are saying I'm sexually attracted to women but otherwise attracted
to men, where it maybe is worth a conversation about compulsive heteronormativity, right,
like just just asking yourself the question, because I do think that our
culture sexualizes women romanticizes men, and so it's just worth interrogating that part of
yourself. And if you still land on that being true for you, great.
Is it fairer to have different dating standards for different genders? Camille?
This is perfect for you. It's so funny. We're together last week,
we're talking about we were talking about this at dinner with mel Right, yeah,
I think sure, And I think the interrogation of the self that you
mentioned is necessary here. I think I'm gonna put words in your mouth.
But when I date women, know, there's a lot of flexibility around X
y Z. When I date men, they have to be rich. Yeah,
right, Like that's a different aspectation too much. No, no,
no, no, no, I mean the people should know that is definitely
my standard for dating men. But then I also have a lot of flexibility
with what type of men. I used to be very predictable. I wanted
really tall, really tall rich guy and now I date short rich guys.
Your type has totally changed for women. It's like all over the board.
Bet from the L word is still my old limmate ultimate in every way.
I think maybe it's worth us taking a second to also emphasize that, at
least, like my stark belief, is that being bisexual does not mean that
you believe that gender is a binary, and so we can also talk about
how maybe you have romantic attraction to men and sexual attracted to women, but
both with non binary people such a range of genders and such a range of
gender expressions. I think that the large majority of the time by folks are
incredibly affirming of trans non binary identities. And it's sort of a myth that
buy and bisexual is in reference to two genders, when I think it's actually
more like I'm attracted to my gender, I'm attracted to other genders. Next
question, what are your thoughts on having sex with men? It's a lesbian.
This person says that they feel dirty for wanting it. Well, this
brings me back to the first time I was almost canceled, which is when
I said it was okay to be a lesbian that sometimes has sex with men,
and Instagram came after me and I was talking about myself. I was
talking about my own experience, and I had so many comments being like,
you're not really a lesbian. I completely disagree with that. Your sexual orientation
is an identity, it's an internal sense of self. It is not behavior.
There are people who are queer their entire lives and never have sex with
somebody of the same gender, and it doesn't make them any less queer.
So we'll get that out of the way. Now, why might this be
the case? I don't know. For you, I can talk about why
it could be the case for me. Why I still sometimes fantasize about sex
with men, even as a lesbian. Sometimes I just want a really outward
expression of arousal that almost nothing can mirror, like a hard penis for me,
right, Like that might be a reason sometimes when I'm in between relationships
with women, I need a palate cleanser, you know, just a little
palate cleanser. Or maybe I just want something that feels easy, and honestly,
I find that pleasing men's sexually is a lot easier. Of course,
that we can't generalize, but that's been my experience. So those could be
some reasons why I'd be curious about other people's reasons why. I mean,
I love what you're saying about sexuality not being behavior. Your identity gets to
be yours. You get to decide, You get to decide what language is
most salient for you, makes the most sense for you, and land's the
best for you. Wanting to have sex with men I think can come from
really rigid ideas of these identities also in the queer community, in the lesbian
community, like I think maybe you feel dirty for wanting this because there's been
language around what it means for lesbians to want this, what it means potentially,
I think that this could be like the like biphobia part of it too,
of like oh, you just can't pick a lane, and like then
you're unreliable, than you're a flight risk, than you're all of these things,
which is just really just like I just I get horny like everybody or
like most people, and I sometimes want to think about having sex with this
type of person because it's intriguing to me, because it feels familiar to me,
because it evokes something in me. There's also that a harmful myth that
by people are more likely to spread STIs, which is just not true the
connection that our culture makes between STIs and dirtiness. I wonder if there's something
to that too here, How is it experienced differently among genders because of gender
stereotypes? And I assume that it they mean bisexuality? Okay, I think
I kind of touched on this earlier. Bisexuality can be experienced differently because of
the internalized misogyny that you talked about and the lack of permission given two men
to experiment. I wonder too if it's not just different experiences depending on gender,
but also maybe even depending on gender expression. This is something heard from
some of my beautiful by friends when they are thinking about the way that they're
perceived in the world depending on who they're with at the time, also the
way that they express themselves and the way that people perceive them based on the
intersection of their gender expression and their bisexuality. Yeah, there are a lot
of individual differences and differences across gender. Yeah. Good point. Okay,
So our next question says, what about dealing with home of other parents who
accept their queer identity but are relieved that this person is dating a man.
I've seen all kinds of flavors of this with clients. It's like, except
my queer identity. Now they're relieved I'm dating a man. When I was
in my bisexual era, I started dating a feminine man, and my mom's
like, this just makes so much sense. You're getting both at the same
time, and I'm like, you're kind of onto something. But the fact
that you're the one who said it makes me hate it. It's giving Laura,
La and Emily I've also heard I did all this work to come out
as queer. My family repped their heads around. Now I'm dating a man,
and my family is like, oh, I guess it was a phase
all along, right, Because it's like families really not understanding the difference between
behavior and sexual orientation, and maybe that's the conversation that you can have with
them, is trying to help them understand that difference. It's something that I
only started to understand two years ago, so I'm guessing my six year old
mother probably doesn't understand and deserves a chance at understanding it, So that might
be a conversation that you have. The relief part is really hard because how
you change those feelings, you may never change those feelings. They may always
be relieved that you are in a relationship that's perceived by them or extended family
or their friends as straight, and that dissonance can be really disconnective. And
so that might even be something you say, like I'm talking to my mom
right now. Mom, you might be relieved about this, and like that's
your prerogative based off your belief system, but expressions of that relief or like
demonstrating that in front of me really makes me feel disconnected from you, because
that is not how I feel in this relationship. So fine, you're going
to feel what you're going to feel, but know that that's going to that's
going to disconnect us if that's the way that you talk about it with me.
It's like the relief that feels insidious, Like then you can conternalize it.
They are experiencing relief because now they are perceiving me as straight. What
does that mean about me? You get to have an identity that feels salient
and important and captures you regardless of who you are dating. Yeah, and
you may be feeling, you know, anything but relief, right Like they
might be feeling relief and you might be feeling really scared about what this means
about queer spaces or how other people are going to perceive you. And that
also brings up some of the grief components, right, It is like you
also get to grieve that you don't have control over how other people perceive you,
but it doesn't make things any less valid. You're on fire today.
Case, thanks Camille cute. Maybe if we could do a little wrap up
with some love for by folks, some strengths and resiliencies of by folks,
some little podcast aftercare, if you will. Yeah. I love the way
that my bye friends hold so much nuance in the way that they express their
gender and sexuality. I love watching them develop more confidence as they lean into
their bisexual identity because what may have at one point been contingent on acting a
certain way or dating a certain person now isn't. And seeing that confidence in
their ability to just know who they are. Yeah, all that is so
sweet And I agree. And I'm extending the same love to myself and by
community and friends, and I do posts on Instagram about bisexuality and I really
like to see their resonance that it is creating wrong, like the people in
the comments, So anybody in this community who is holding space for themselves and
getting more and more permission to feel more confident. I love you, and
I think that is really wonderful that we get to be this and honor this
in ourselves. And just as a reminder that like what you experience about fantasy,
what you do in your dating life, any of that is always it's
always okay, pretty much, it's always okay, and it doesn't make you
anymore or less buy and you can be by for as long as you want,
and maybe that's forever, and maybe you just have a powerful By Eeralight
Casey. This week's safe Word is Pumpernical, recommended by out Here Forever.
Safe Word is hosted by Casey Tanner and Kamil Lewis and is produced by coordinator
et Townsend. Our theme song is written formed by Emma Jane and Toria Rainey.
To support the show, please follow us on Spotify and take a moment
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End hand to submit long form questions in writing or in your own voice.
Go to the Safe Word or Queer Sex Therapy Instagram page and click on our
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today made you curious about seeking support, the Expansive Group has a great team
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