1 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,960 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jashinsky, 2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,000 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,079 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST, 4 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,000 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:32,039 --> 00:00:35,240 the premium version of our website as well. I did it again. I 6 00:00:35,359 --> 00:00:40,560 referred to x as Twitter easy mistake to make, but Annez Stepman is someone 7 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,159 who does not make any mistakes at all. Even though she's completely mistaken about 8 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,280 the topic, she is here to discuss as I'm sure you're very glad that 9 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,240 I've given you such a generous introduction. And Nez is of course with the 10 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,200 Independent Women's Forum. She hosts the podcast high Noon over there, which I 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,240 highly recommend that you check out. And Nez also is a senior contributor at 12 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,560 The Federalist, and you are surely familiar with at this point the dulcet tones 13 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:08,359 of her voice, and as welcome back to federal Astradio Hour. Well, 14 00:01:08,599 --> 00:01:12,159 that's a great introduction, and I highly recommend going to High Noon. Emily 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,519 did not mention that she is on there once a month, so that's really 16 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:22,200 the only reason to pop over to that podcast. And just yeah, it 17 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:25,799 makes people uncomfortable when I bride because it's so powerful. You know, there's 18 00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:29,560 just so much to brag about. Kidding, I'm kidding, But and this 19 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,319 is actually here because she has a take that is rarely It's sort of going 20 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,920 to be your rare dose of optimism. Optimism is of course spiritually important, 21 00:01:40,359 --> 00:01:45,640 uh, psychologically important, and it's not something that Annez often experiences. I 22 00:01:45,719 --> 00:01:49,280 don't think it's something any of us often experience. But and Nez has been 23 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,840 specifically working in the area of higher education for years now and has this feeling, 24 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,640 has the sense since October seventh, as sort of academia's rot has been 25 00:01:59,719 --> 00:02:04,280 laid air, that this moment could indeed be a turning point along away to 26 00:02:04,359 --> 00:02:07,919 turning point towards a better future for American higher education. And just before we 27 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,680 started taping, and has made an interesting point that I think is a good 28 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,599 launching point into this broader discussion, which is and as you said, you're 29 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,240 glad that Claudine Gay, the sort of disgraced president of Harvard, one of 30 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:25,520 the three women female presidents that were skewered by a last sephonic to the point 31 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,280 where it became an SNL parody, a really bad smell parody. But you 32 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:34,639 know, kind of famously now she has refused to resign, even though kind 33 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,039 of plagiarism of stuff has trickled into the discourse. Liz McGill obviously did resign. 34 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,520 Why is it you think I actually agree with you on this point, 35 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,120 which is why it's a good place to start. Why are you glad that 36 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:54,960 Claudine gay Sophist has not resigned her post? Because I think that it would 37 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:01,080 have been it would have been too easy. And the problem in these institutions. 38 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,439 Here's where I'm sure we do agree, and then we can get to 39 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,639 sort of why I'm optimistic or perhaps you are not. The institutions, these 40 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:15,479 particular institutions, the rot in our higher ed It goes deep, it goes 41 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:17,319 to the foundations, it goes back decades. Well. M. F. 42 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,439 Buckley wrote Got a Man at Yale seventy years ago. The right has done 43 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:25,840 functionally nothing, and the new Left, especially since the nineteen sixties, has 44 00:03:27,039 --> 00:03:31,319 used its dominance in the universities basically to spread the ideological poison that we confront 45 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:38,360 virtually in every institution of American life, and so all of that to say, 46 00:03:38,439 --> 00:03:40,840 I think that the universities have been the enemies of America, to paraphrase 47 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:46,639 Donald Trump, the enemies of the people for quite some time, and I 48 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:53,639 don't think any particular resignation of these particular presidents would have altered the reality of 49 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,400 thus universities, and therefore I'm actually glad it didn't happen. I think the 50 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,439 clarity that it presents is actually really important for keeping us, particularly Republican moderates, 51 00:04:01,479 --> 00:04:04,680 on board with what actually needs to be done, which is to treat 52 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:09,159 these universities as the enemies of the people that they are, to strip them 53 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:15,639 of the myriad of privileges and very lucrative gravy train items that they have been 54 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,560 able to accumulate over the last seventy years that have allowed them to sit in 55 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:25,720 this position of wealth, of power, of being the pipeline to not only 56 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,879 the elite, but in many ways increasingly to middle class life in America. 57 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:35,399 And those are all policy choices that can be undone and firing Claudine Gay ain't 58 00:04:35,439 --> 00:04:38,920 going to be enough to do that so well. And that's why I wanted 59 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,959 to start there, because your optimism hinges on the idea, and you've actually 60 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,120 studied all of the sort of vulnerable points for academia and come up with some 61 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:53,000 very innovative policy ideas as to where on a policy basis, on an institutional 62 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,920 basis, they could be vulnerable to serious reform. And I wanted to start 63 00:04:56,959 --> 00:05:02,160 there actually because your optimism hinges on publicans and obviously some Democrats as well coming 64 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,560 to the table and actually taking some of these steps. So tell us a 65 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:12,319 little bit about and actually some of this comes it's like original policy prescriptions from 66 00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:15,199 you. Tell us a little bit about what some of these attainable policy solutions 67 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,000 that are on the table right now and hopefully stay on the table, what 68 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:24,600 would that really look like? What kind of votes would Republicans and some Democrats 69 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,959 have to take here? So there's a whole list of possibilities in terms of 70 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,399 the policy. But I want to back up for one second and say why 71 00:05:32,439 --> 00:05:36,439 this hasn't been done anything against the university. It's no matter what right, 72 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:43,040 anything to constrain the power and the wealth and the gatekeeping function of universities in 73 00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:47,759 America, nothing has been done. Why is that? I think in large 74 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:53,120 part it has been the lack of backbone and incentive structure in place in the 75 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,279 Republican Party. It has never meant made any sense to me that the Republican 76 00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:02,040 Party would fund to the two of trillions of dollars. They're not only opponents, 77 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:08,519 but I think the right word would be enemies inside the country. There's 78 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,800 no reason why universities, you know, should have any access special access to 79 00:06:14,519 --> 00:06:18,560 at this point trillions in taxpayer funding, Trillions that have made life much harder, 80 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,639 not only for us ideologically on the right or anyone who'd want to see 81 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,319 any semblance of what the American way of life has been to be retained, 82 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,079 but also has made things much more difficult for both for people who graduated from 83 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,120 university with with huge amounts of debt. We now have a one point seven 84 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,920 trillion dollar problem, debt problem for a generation and a half of Americans who 85 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,839 are starting out underwater. And that that all that money is money the universities 86 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,279 have gotten and spent upfront, right, and that money comes from taxpayer. 87 00:06:48,399 --> 00:06:53,399 So that's that's the backdrop. This has always been a series of policy choices. 88 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,720 It's not that Harvard wouldn't be an elite it was an elite university before 89 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,360 we started giving it billions and billions of dollars, but it has used those 90 00:07:01,399 --> 00:07:06,439 billions and billions of dollars to develop a hedge fund, basically an endowment of 91 00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:10,160 fifty three billion dollars, which would put it in the top ten. I 92 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,319 believe hedge funds in the United States tax free in any case. So, 93 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:18,879 in terms of actually running down the list of what's possible, some of these 94 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,040 things required legislation, some of them don't. Some of them could be done 95 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:29,920 by any serious minded Republican administration in the White House. So the legislative piece 96 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,000 of this is as I've proposed over at IWF dot R. You can find 97 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:41,680 my policy focus on this idea called taxing universities. You essentially, we should 98 00:07:41,759 --> 00:07:48,279 be treating these universities. Their claim on the special status that they have both 99 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:53,959 with reguard to not being taxed and to getting affirmative subsidies from the government has 100 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:59,759 been the idea that they are increasing the GDP and that they're making wiser citizens. 101 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:05,759 The wiser citizens claim is absurd and has been absurd for decades. The 102 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,439 GDP claim is becoming worse, and where the proposition is becoming worse and worse, 103 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,319 where Essentially, the cost of university has escalated to such an extent that 104 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:18,279 while it is still true that lifetime earnings for people with bachelor's degrees are higher, 105 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,279 those two lines are coming closer and closer together right in terms of it 106 00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:26,279 not being financially worth it, because the cost is getting so disproportionate to the 107 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,879 debt that you have to take on. That's really what's caused this debt crisis. 108 00:08:30,959 --> 00:08:35,200 Right, So, both on Option A and Option B, the proposite, 109 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:41,840 like the sort of offer that universities are giving taxpayers has declined, and 110 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,639 so I think the obvious answer is to stop treating them especially And the most 111 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:52,679 important thing we could do is first to cut the student loan subsidies. The 112 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:56,720 fact that any eighteen year old in the country can take out one hundred and 113 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:03,000 fifty thousand dollars loan to go to a university, no matter which university, 114 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:05,679 how it's ranked, no matter what they choose to study, no matter what 115 00:09:05,759 --> 00:09:09,200 the projections of their earnings after that, that could not be done without the 116 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:15,639 federal government being the lender. Ninety three percent of student loans under gate now 117 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,480 or are held by the Department of Education. There are no real banks. 118 00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:24,759 In this it is the taxpayer lending money to students specifically to go to university 119 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,759 in a way. They don't lend money to anybody for any other reason. 120 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,799 Right, you can't go to get a loan from the federal government to get 121 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:35,159 a new truck, for example, or to do any number of things, 122 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,559 but they specifically lend it in this way, and that bare fact props up 123 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:46,159 most of the higher ed sector. The second piece that I think federally could 124 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:48,320 be attacked is we can simply cut a lot of the grants. So in 125 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:54,639 addition to having subsidized student loans, there are also billions and billions of dollars 126 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,200 that go out in grants to universities. A lot of that is to research 127 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,320 either one of those things, the loans. Cutting the loans or cutting the 128 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:07,039 grants could be done instead by putting writers on that money. We can demand 129 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,600 just about anything from the university sector. We can just say, well, 130 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,360 you don't qualify for title for funds, which would be student loans and grants 131 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,039 if you don't fix this about yourself. This was always a matter of political 132 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:26,200 will. We have the policy leverage to demand almost anything from these universities or 133 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,679 a large percentage of them will go under, so they're dependent on us. 134 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:35,960 What could Republican governors, maybe even Democrat governors, but probably mostly Republican governors 135 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,559 be doing right now on a state level, Well, there's a really illustrative 136 00:10:39,639 --> 00:10:45,720 example out of Wisconsin, I believe, where the board and again I prefer 137 00:10:45,759 --> 00:10:50,639 clarity, the board of University of Wisconsin voted down eight hundred million dollars from 138 00:10:50,639 --> 00:10:54,600 the state because it came with a demand to freeze, not even eliminate freeze 139 00:10:54,600 --> 00:11:00,279 the DEI department. That is the sort of thing that go badgers every single 140 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,000 red stay should should have done a long time ago, but I think should 141 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:09,559 be looking into now. If there's public universities that are taking direct taxpayer funds, 142 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,080 you have every right in the world to demand that they're subject to political 143 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,200 scrutiny, and what they're doing should be subject to political scrutiny. And if 144 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:24,720 what they're doing is hiring DEI administrators right or you know now recently right bowing 145 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:31,279 to mobs of anti Semitic chants on campus, there's no reason why that money 146 00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:35,399 should continue to go to those universities. Eight hundred million dollars is a huge 147 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:39,039 amount of money and it's enough to start a new institution. You know, 148 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,840 think about what could have been done with that eight hundred million dollars in terms 149 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:50,600 of building a institution that actually communicates what is great about America and about the 150 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,759 Western canon. Well, and here's where my passimism comes in because this sort 151 00:11:54,799 --> 00:12:01,360 of in a way, it's similar to Ukraine or other like foreign policy quagmires. 152 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,600 You have the kind of battle plan for taking the territory, and then 153 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:13,159 the giant what if question or what next question looms over absolutely everything, and 154 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,960 I just I'm completely pessimistic that the what next. You know, if these 155 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,320 universities, obviously, if they start getting defunded at historic levels, that creates 156 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,519 an incentive for them to be better. But we're just not on the same 157 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:30,440 page about the benefit of You know, that speech exists. Free speech as 158 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,240 the framers envisioned it, you know, exists for progress towards the good. 159 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,879 It exists towards you know, pointing your direction at a goal of creating a 160 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:41,960 better society, not just saying the F word or whatever. It is, 161 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,159 not just studying lesbian basket weaving, but doing it for a sort of consensus, 162 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,320 common good purpose. And I don't know that we have a the personnel, 163 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:54,360 the ability to be on the same page about that, the ability even 164 00:12:54,399 --> 00:12:58,879 to get Republicans on the same page about that. I don't know. I 165 00:12:58,919 --> 00:13:01,639 mean, what's the talk to me a little bit? And as about the 166 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,960 what next? Yeah, I mean, I assume that we're not on the 167 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:13,120 same page, right. I am the last person who is like naive about 168 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,159 how deep this The purpose of the university as currently constituted is to turn out 169 00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:24,960 people like Claudine Gay Right, who plagiarized her way to being essentially the living, 170 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:31,639 breathing figurehead of an ideology that has dispensed not only with merit but with 171 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:41,840 anything valuable about essentially the West. Right or will not see anything valuable in 172 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:46,000 this particular civilization that we have built in America and in the rest of the 173 00:13:46,039 --> 00:13:52,039 West. I am under no illusions about that. I do think there's enormous 174 00:13:54,039 --> 00:14:00,919 interest and growing interest in an alternative. It's the reason that Hillsdale College has 175 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,399 gone It's always had an excellent education, but it's gone from being not particularly 176 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:11,799 selective and very easy to get into in recent years has been able to be 177 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:16,159 incredibly selective about its student quality, simply because there are so many more people 178 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,759 who are desperate to send their kids to an institution that actually respects that and 179 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,000 it's not exclusive on the right, Like I would say that an institution like 180 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,559 Saint John's College. Although I don't know how far Woke has proceeded into Saint 181 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:35,279 John's, it also does that kind of Western canon survey. They only give 182 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,840 one degree, Liberal arts degree, and it's exactly because they were tied to 183 00:14:37,879 --> 00:14:41,360 the Western canon that I sort of doubt, Like I'm sure that it's chock 184 00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:46,960 full of like crazy liberals even at Saint John's, but they really couldn't destroy 185 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,960 they would destroy the purpose of the university by like putting in a sort of 186 00:14:50,039 --> 00:14:54,559 dei degree, right, because the only the whole concept of Saint John's University 187 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,360 is you can only get a degree in the Liberal arts and there's a canon 188 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,360 of great books you have to read to get that degree. In any case, 189 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:07,200 aside from the individual examples, I do think there's a lot of desire 190 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,440 for a place like that. I think if Wisconsin were to seed a new 191 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:16,679 university, I think there's a ton of professors who would like to be hired 192 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,919 at that kind of university. I think the talent is there now. It 193 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,120 may not be a behemoth overnight the way that the rest of it is. 194 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:28,840 But first of all, back up a second, taking eight hundred million dollars 195 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,080 out of an institution that hates you is a W. Even if we burn 196 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:35,879 that money big time huge, that's it. Yeah, that is you weaken 197 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:39,799 the institution that hates you. And then if you get to building something new, 198 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:45,919 that's great and necessary. But it's still a W to take eight hundred 199 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,720 million dollars out of an institution that hates you. And there is in terms 200 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,840 of the politics. The reason I am optimistic is how well this hearing has 201 00:15:54,879 --> 00:16:00,799 gone for Republicans, how viral it's gone, how much it's per penetrated into 202 00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:07,519 norminess. Just having that terrible SNL sketch, I think is an evidence of 203 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:11,600 the fact that it has penetrated into the normy consciousness. I think much like 204 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:15,840 we had this moment, this tipping point in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, 205 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:23,240 where a huge percentage of normally a political moderate American parents realized because they 206 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:30,759 were hearing it from their kitchen tables, right, Holy crap, this is 207 00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:36,000 what they're teaching my child. They're teaching my child that having white skin is 208 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,320 makes them inherently guilty. They're teaching my child that we need to split up 209 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:47,159 by race and essentially and then order ourselves by privilege. People knew. I 210 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:52,120 think people know that universities are liberal. That's a well known fact in American 211 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:55,399 life. The extent to which, and here's where I do think this is 212 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:02,600 possibly a tipping point. The extent of the craziness on college campuses until now 213 00:17:02,759 --> 00:17:08,359 has been I think for normal people has been confined to like a Fox News 214 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,920 segment here about the crazy campus left, a Fox News segment there, But 215 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:18,240 to have those presidents and have it go viral of r elite institutions not being 216 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:26,759 able to answer a very simple question about calls for genocide in a way, 217 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:30,759 and this is critical. People know they would not be answering in any other 218 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:41,279 context, any other group. Right. Yeah, I think it is breaking 219 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:44,880 through, and I think this might just be the beginning of a snowball of 220 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,279 people discover because the more you look, the more crazy you will find people 221 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:55,160 just weren't looking, and it's making the look it gets so much worse than 222 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,880 what we saw actually at the hearing. And that's a part of what I 223 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,000 wanted to ask you here is to sort of put your don Draper hat on, 224 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:08,039 and like from a messaging standpoint, as Republicans perhaps look to tackle higher 225 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:15,480 education and a substantive policy legislative and executive fashion, what is the because because 226 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,599 there was something very interesting in that. I think you know, you said, 227 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,440 you agree Claudine Gay probably best that she's not fired. I agree with 228 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,039 that, and I actually I think there's still an open question as to whether 229 00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:30,759 what at least Deephonic was asking them to agree to. And maybe as you 230 00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:36,720 have thoughts on this too as an actual attorney, it was like testified before 231 00:18:36,759 --> 00:18:41,559 Congress whether that was a real So she was specifically asking about the bullying and 232 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,559 harassment codes of conduct at these universities, and she said calling for a Jewish 233 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:52,200 genocide. She was also referencing from the River to the Sea, which Jews 234 00:18:52,279 --> 00:18:56,279 rightfully interpret as a call to Jewish genocide. Then there are people who say, 235 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,680 you know, from the pro Palestine side, it's not about that, 236 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,640 it's peaceful coexistence, and take that with a grain of salt. Obviously we 237 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,480 all sort of know there's a wink and a nod to all of that. 238 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,440 But I don't necessarily agree that that should be a speech violation. At the 239 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,799 same time, it's the double standard that you're talking about. It is, 240 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:18,039 and others have made this point very well too, that this is we know 241 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,759 that they would never be talking about trans identity in this way, or about 242 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:27,720 any other protected class in this way. And so as Republicans are looking to, 243 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,279 you know, design hearings like this one to ask questions, to write 244 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,079 letters, to make demands of universities, what are some of those pressure points 245 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,440 and what are some of the what's some of the framing that they should be 246 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,799 kind of looking to as they sort of put the screws to these you know, 247 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:52,400 absolutely worse than worthless bureaucrats. Yeah, so, I mean I can 248 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:56,160 agree, like sort of an abstract, it's an interesting discussion where the line 249 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:04,720 is between incitement and free speech, right and protected speech. Similarly, there 250 00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:07,519 has been a move into action. I mean, the way it was phrase 251 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:11,440 in those and those hearings was very funny, where like the university presidents were 252 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:12,759 like, well, if they actually try to commit genocide, then of course 253 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:19,200 that's against our policies. We draw the line at genocide. But I mean 254 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,119 some of the videos that have come off from campus, in my view, 255 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:29,119 do violate Title six. We should be taking these universities tocord for violating Title 256 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:34,680 six. Especially for example, so it our civil rights law demands that people 257 00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:38,839 of all races and national backgrounds be able to access their education. And if 258 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:48,039 if the institution turns a blind eye to things that like the something that rises 259 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:56,000 to actual harassment, where a kid would actually be like plausibly or objectively prevented 260 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,720 from actually you know, going to class or accessing that education, that is 261 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:07,519 a violation of our civil rights laws. So in that context, I have 262 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:08,960 seen a few things that I think come out to that, like, for 263 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,759 example, following Jewish students around with the kafias and like trying to like force 264 00:21:14,839 --> 00:21:19,559 them into right. If there's any truth to the fact that and I'm kind 265 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:22,880 of two minds, if there's any truth the fact that it's actually physically dangerous 266 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:29,960 for Jewish students on campus, then of course that's also illegal. I don't 267 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,160 know to what extent that's true, in the sense that I just kind of 268 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,759 wonder what would happen if the students in Cooper Union opened the door and said, 269 00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:41,680 and what right. It's not clear to me what would happen if there 270 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:48,119 would be violence or not. But certainly there's a lot more merit to these 271 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,079 claims than there have been to the calls for sort of various other safetyisms. 272 00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:57,680 But even aside from from sort of the legal standard of what isn't isn't accepted, 273 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:03,839 I would really caution the right not to be played by this obvious bad 274 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,759 faith argument about free speech right. The idea that Claudie and Gay cares about 275 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:15,880 free speech at Harvard is absurd, and there isn't a sense in which I 276 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,640 don't think, for example, this strengthens calls against free speech or strengthens aside 277 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,119 that is against free speech. I think applying the same rules when we have 278 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,759 the opportunity to to the left is exactly what, if anything, can restore 279 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:33,119 a free speech to tent, which I'm sort of skeptical that it can, 280 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,000 because I think these clashes are about substantive values and not about procedural issues like 281 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:41,880 free speech. But to the extent that it may be possible to restore kind 282 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:48,000 of nineties to taunt on free speech, it will be by holding the left 283 00:22:48,039 --> 00:22:52,799 to their own standard and hanging them by the own standards that they are hanging 284 00:22:52,799 --> 00:23:00,839 everybody else, and so I feel no like sort of libertarian regrets at all 285 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:07,039 about coming after the universities aggressively for this. I think I want your memoir 286 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:15,359 to be titled libertarian regret. Colan, I feel none. Yeah, No, 287 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,720 it's obvious, it's obvious bad faith. We know that it wouldn't be 288 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,640 applied in any other instance, and I just I just think it's the time 289 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:29,079 for the right to allow ourselves to be played by this two step game where 290 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:36,319 we're held to one standard and they're held to a completely to no standards whatsoever. 291 00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:38,799 Look, what's good for the use is good for the yander. I 292 00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:44,559 don't. I'm not worried about the effects on free speech. Honestly. You 293 00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:47,720 know, it's interesting to look at a lot of the work that people have 294 00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:52,079 done fairly recently in the wake of twenty twenty A lot of this happened, 295 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:55,839 but also a little bit before that, as DEI was starting to become more 296 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,960 and more tangible as its own entity that was drawing on a lot of these 297 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:04,640 ideas that Germany in French universities American universities and then just became prolific. And 298 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,440 the reason I say that is because the nineties Dyton question is a really interesting 299 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:14,039 one. From my mind, what really broke the nineties di tent was the 300 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,640 kind of critical mass of moral relativism that allowed terms like white supremacy and gender 301 00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:26,920 to suddenly be weaponized in a way that really seriously and I'm sure talking about 302 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:32,039 what Title six like that, the question of like safety and your ability to 303 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:34,839 access your education, I can you know we've already seen it be weaponized on 304 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,960 terms of gender and a race discrimination. We've seen Title nine used in a 305 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,680 way like that too, And to me, that's where the sort of rubber 306 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,599 meets the road. And I don't think you disagree with this at all. 307 00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:49,119 I mean, again you said this yourself, but like you are the last 308 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:56,640 person to downplay the fundamental discord and the fundamental sort of divide between people on 309 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,960 one side and the other when it comes to higher ed. But that is 310 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,160 a big question, you know, if we no longer have consensus on those 311 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,839 really important points, you know, if what constitutes a man and a woman, 312 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,559 what constitutes violence versus words? You know, that's a that's a big 313 00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:15,400 one. I was hit with that as a student that you know, if 314 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:22,160 for opposing like a mandatory pronoun training that we had committed an act of violence 315 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:27,920 against the transgender community on campus. So in that sense, I guess it's 316 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,960 it's hard to see the path forward. I don't know what do you think 317 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,839 about that? Yeah, I mean, look if we if we do it 318 00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:38,359 to them, they'll do it to us. Used to make sense as im 319 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,000 mutually assured destruction, they have done it to us. I mean, you 320 00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:48,279 just described all the ways under Title six and Title nine words have become violence 321 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:53,680 on university interpretation. And then also the federal government, right the regulations that 322 00:25:53,759 --> 00:25:59,319 Biden, the Biden administration has put out formalized this. It's not just that 323 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:07,079 his titleline regulations obscured the difference between male and female. They also obscured the 324 00:26:07,079 --> 00:26:12,559 difference between words and harassment, right between expressing a political opinion or opinion about 325 00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:18,960 how the world is and following someone around, And like this is this essential, 326 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,839 just like in what is protected speech and what isn't? Right? So 327 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,839 yeah, I think I tend to agree that shouting from the river to the 328 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:33,079 sea is protected speech. Following Jewish students around, screaming from the river to 329 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,599 the sea as they try to attend their classes, or singling them out in 330 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,240 dorms, that does rise to the level of harassment under the way that even 331 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,920 a sort of more conservative interpretation of the law in my view, So say 332 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,680 hypothetically, though, you know, Wisconsin takes that eight hundred million dollars and 333 00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:59,039 seeds in a new school something like that. And I know we've seen projects 334 00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:04,039 like Universe of Austin and obviously Hillsdale is growing, which is fantastic, but 335 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,799 in the kind of normy academia space. When you try to start a university 336 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:17,519 and you are kind of boxed in by you know, the Biden administration's guidance 337 00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:19,960 on Title nine and sex and gender and all of that stuff, and more 338 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,599 importantly boxed in by the new consensus, especially among zoomer students and younger than 339 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:32,119 zoomer students that you're serving about sex, about racism, about those terms. 340 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,359 I'm just like practically wondering how bringing a faculty together, how bringing administrators together, 341 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,759 how's are being able to do that? How is that possible going forward 342 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:48,960 for academia. Uh, you don't do it by putting the same people in, 343 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:55,039 right, These are truly parallel institutions. University of Texas or University of 344 00:27:55,079 --> 00:28:03,079 Austin Hillsdale. These are truly h power l it's a parallel polus, and 345 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,319 he'll still doesn't take said I'm sorry, yeah, I was just in that 346 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,880 hillstill doesn't take government money. Like that's one really good way to free yourself 347 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,880 from time, yourself completely from those things. And by the way, everything 348 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,000 I'm saying about government money applies equally to you know, folks like Bill Ackman 349 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:22,119 uh and his his uh millions of dollars right, Like, imagine what good 350 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,720 he could do with a private institution fund to buy that money. But that 351 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:30,839 see, that's the interesting point for me, Like can we convince Bill Ackman 352 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,599 that sex and gender and I don't know what Acmen particularly thinks about this. 353 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,359 I know there are people in the sort of private sector, powerful echelons of 354 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:44,440 the private sector, like Bill Ackman who think that where we've gone on sex 355 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,039 and gender and race is crazy. I don't I don't know about him particularly, 356 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:51,839 But I also know a whole lot of those sort of normy dem donors 357 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,759 or hedge fund Republican normy donors are appalled by what Ron DeSantis did with so 358 00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:00,480 called book bands. For example, there was a a I think it was 359 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,720 a hedge fund guy or pe guy who was saying that to the Wall Street 360 00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:06,880 Journal. One of the reasons he stopped supporting DeSantis was because of the book 361 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,599 bands. How do you kind of come to the point of agreement, a 362 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:17,559 starting point of agreement on some of those major questions with normies so kind of 363 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:22,119 deluded and I keep saying normies and like, I sound like a gamer, 364 00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:25,359 but you know what I mean, And as how do we sort of do 365 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,359 that anymore? No, I mean, I think there's two points I want 366 00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:34,160 to pull out or separate from each other on what you said. One is 367 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:41,240 about the Normies. The other one is essentially saying and it's a type of 368 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:48,759 resentment argument that I actually have a certain amount of sympathy for, which is, 369 00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:52,960 you know, people didn't care, not only like sort of big Jewish 370 00:29:53,039 --> 00:29:59,880 donors and liberal Jews didn't care the fact that their universities were anti white for 371 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:08,200 generations these like big even Republican donors and Republican Party wasn't talking about, you 372 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,559 know, wasn't talking about dressing down the Ivy League for that that was not 373 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,039 considered you know, sort of the tipping point, right, And it really 374 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:18,279 is a tipping point. We can get to this with the politics within the 375 00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:22,759 Republican Party. When Nicki Haley says we need to strip their tax exent status, 376 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,400 right, Nicki Haley is by all accounts, you know, the establishment 377 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:33,839 darling. If she is saying we need to strip this status from universities and 378 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,880 tax and that's really what she's saying. When she says to strip their nonprofit 379 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,680 status, it means expose them to the kind of taxes that hedge funds have 380 00:30:40,759 --> 00:30:45,200 to pay. So, I mean, I can see why people would be 381 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,359 resentful of this being the tipping point. There is this sense that either of 382 00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:53,960 this is about a conflict on the other side of the world and therefore not 383 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,240 domestic in some way, or that like essentially that this is all going to 384 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:03,400 end with a card back for the Jews as special victims on the victimhood hierarchy. 385 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,079 And that's actually what we're going to get out of this. We're just 386 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:10,160 going to get more DEI. It's just that it's not going to be applied 387 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,799 anymore to Jews. So we already saw a University of Michigan go in that 388 00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:18,279 direction and say that we're doubling down. I think that is untenable for the 389 00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:22,440 left. And I'll tell you, I just I just don't think that their 390 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:29,839 mob is going to accept that. And this is where October seventh really did, 391 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,599 I think, make a huge difference. Basically, it's not new. 392 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,400 By the way, this is part of the left, is anti Israel and 393 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,119 anti Smitic. It's not a new thing. It was on campus when I 394 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,359 was on campus. I mean, it's very much part of the left. 395 00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:48,240 It was part of the code Pink Left, like back in the two thousands. 396 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:52,799 This is not a new thing. And it has always been. I 397 00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:55,799 mean, if you go back to the sixties and the Wretched of the Earth, 398 00:31:55,839 --> 00:32:01,079 there's always been this sense that it's essentially oppressed people's of the world unite. 399 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,599 And some of those oppressed peoples have been Arabs who really hate Jews, 400 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:12,200 and particular in particular hate Israel right sore. This has existed for quite some 401 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:16,319 time on the left. The difference is it was ignorable and that a lot 402 00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:22,480 of liberal Jews were all too happy to ignore because you know, look, 403 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:27,440 actually, contrary to I guess conspiracy theories on the left and the right, 404 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:32,920 you know, Jews don't vote on Israel in America. They don't order their 405 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,079 politics around Israel. There's seventy percent of Jews vote for the Democratic Party because 406 00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:42,559 they're liberal. They're liberal Democrats. Like that's me. Uh, that's the 407 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,640 that's the explanation. But what has happened on ten to seven, and then 408 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,680 correspondingly in the West, in the western capitals in Europe and then here in 409 00:32:51,720 --> 00:33:02,039 America on the campuses has been the too obvious to ignore embrace of a Yeah, 410 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:09,279 frankly, anti Semitic ideology is now so open on the left and has 411 00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:15,039 now come to the four because of the massacre on October seventh and the protests 412 00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:16,960 after that. I mean, I just don't think they're going to be able 413 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,119 to ignore it anymore. But I also don't think that mob is going to 414 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,559 accept like, I don't think do you think the people I mean, it's 415 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,799 largely a lot of the same people were marching on in June of twenty twenty, 416 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,599 right, it's just like this sort of pick and play mob that left 417 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,279 can gin up on any number of issues. Do you think the people marching 418 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,640 right now will accept that they can't call from the River to the sea. 419 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,960 No, it's their current thing. They're not going to accept it. But 420 00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:52,279 to your point, do you create a culture of shame by weaponizing some of 421 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:54,839 the left's own I mean, this is there's the kind of double edged sort 422 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,079 of moral relativism, which is that you have all of these zoomers who are 423 00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:04,240 just sort of swimming in the moral ether like there's no direction. And so 424 00:34:04,319 --> 00:34:08,599 if you tell them that, if you start to create consensus around the idea 425 00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:12,800 that from the river to the sea is a call for genocide, or that 426 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,480 you know, they're on the wrong side of the oppressed oppressor or of the 427 00:34:16,559 --> 00:34:22,920 you know, kind of dialectic, then maybe they're persuadable to that. I 428 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,000 don't know, that's just the thought I had as you were talking. I 429 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,800 think the only way that the left is actually in a bind, which is 430 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,920 why I think the right should, you know, come down as hard as 431 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,639 we possibly can. This is this is a classic wedge issue in the sense 432 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:42,760 that it splits the left in half and it unifies the right for the most 433 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,320 part. And I don't see that split in the left going away. It's 434 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,679 growing rather than fading. For generational reasons, for indoctrination reasons right, also 435 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,519 for immigration reasons, right, all three of those, I just I don't 436 00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:05,360 see. I don't see an opening actually to satisfy like maybe there's some liberal 437 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,159 Jews who would take the car about as a solution to this. The other 438 00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:13,239 side won't. I just I think it's I think it's it's actually I think 439 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,360 we're underestimating how difficult it is. You see, how like Biden has to 440 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:22,320 sort of tap dance now, and the administration has to tap dance now, 441 00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:25,559 and top Democrats have to tap dance around a lot of this. That tap 442 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:32,159 dancing is going to fall off an edge eventually, and sooner rather than later. 443 00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:37,360 And so just to circle this back to the republican side of politics, 444 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:43,239 the only thing that is required to quite frankly bash universities, to just punish 445 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,480 them for this and many other sense right, to just just punish them and 446 00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:57,159 weaken them. All that is required is Republican political will. And I think 447 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,360 this just seeing over an over again starting with this testimony. But you know, 448 00:36:02,119 --> 00:36:06,119 like there's probably going to be more testimony. They're probably going to bring 449 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:09,760 more university headsend, right, They're going to keep pushing on this question because 450 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:15,679 it makes sense for them to do so politically, And that's why I'm optimistic 451 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,079 for the first time it makes sense for them. I've thought, you know, 452 00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:22,079 Okay, the base is going to support this, Like screwing university is 453 00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:27,039 very popular among the Republican base right. If you look at any pole in 454 00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:30,079 terms of trust in universities, it's off a cliff in terms of Republicans and 455 00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:37,000 moderates are following the same trajectory. By the way, but the Republican Party, 456 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,400 as you well know, as this buying like a wet noodle, and 457 00:36:40,559 --> 00:36:45,679 it is usually only comes out for preferred interests of their donor class, or 458 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,800 sort of really basic things where they don't really get the opprobrium of the left 459 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,599 and of the media right, like adjusting the marginal tax rate by three points. 460 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,880 So I have what I'm hopeful about is I think that they have realized 461 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,280 that holding hearings like this is very popular, that proposing these kinds of punitive 462 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,079 measures against universities very popular, and all it needs is unified Republican will. 463 00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:15,000 And that's why I'm worried about us being too cynical about this, Like it's 464 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:19,840 actually not that hard. Unlike some of these other problems that are really intractable, 465 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:27,039 universities really are vulnerable on so many policy grounds that you could easily make 466 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:30,159 sound like a moderate right. You can just attach something that you know universities 467 00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:35,280 won't accept, like in this Wisconsin debate, right, just attach no more 468 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:40,400 DEI to that money. Let them blow themselves up. I mean they are 469 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,000 true believers. There's going to be a lot of universities that don't take that 470 00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:47,719 money. That's going to devastate them. I mean there's no downside. Either 471 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:53,159 they get rid of their DEI departments or they are much weaker institutions and they 472 00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:58,800 have much less money and much less power. So Devil's advocate would say they 473 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,679 can get rid of their DEI to apartments. But you know, unless they 474 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:08,400 stop you know, assigning Judith Butler at their leisure, or Fuco or Finong 475 00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:14,920 or whomever at their leisure, because they're the entire academic class. Like professors 476 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,960 broadly, I have this sort of deep seated anti Western directional ideology. That's 477 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,360 not to say there aren't some you know, kind of old school ACLU people 478 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:30,360 out in academia that would be happy to hear about University of Austin or you 479 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,280 know, want to go to Hillsdale or New College of Florida type stuff. 480 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,719 I know those people exist. But so you get rid of DEI, what 481 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,360 kind of what should Republicans, Like I was thinking when you were talking about 482 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,400 the University of Chicago letter, that became a very tangible item in the free 483 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,960 speech debate, and really I think changed things because it gave other university presidents. 484 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,760 I mean, here you have a very powerful if people don't remember it 485 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,079 was, it was a very powerful embrace of free speech from the University of 486 00:38:57,159 --> 00:39:00,159 Chicago's president at the time, and other schools started to sign on to it, 487 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:04,840 and that kind of gave them something to hold on to and to hold 488 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,119 up as an example of what values Professors should be At the very minimum, 489 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:13,840 that's sort of their baseline as they go into class and teach students. So 490 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,039 what should republicans and thinkers in the space be pressuring Republicans to do when it 491 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:22,920 comes to curriculum to mission statements. Are there kind of tangibles in terms of 492 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,199 like the this is what we believe at the school going forward. Yeah, 493 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,679 I mean, I think getting rid of DEI is an easy one. I 494 00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:35,679 mean, look, I'm in favor of not giving them the opportunity to reform 495 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,679 and just cutting their funding. But I do see that like there is I 496 00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:45,159 think the Wisconsin example shows that there's a lot of value in just attaching something 497 00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:52,119 that sounds really, really reasonable and watching them just burn their institutions to the 498 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:57,800 ground rather than accept something that's obviously reasonable. So I could see the argument 499 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,280 for going either direction at this point. But this has always been a matter 500 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:06,199 of policy and will on the part of the right and upon the part of 501 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,639 the Republican Party. They have not had the will to do this in the 502 00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:15,559 past. And here's where the normy part of the conversation does come in. 503 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:22,800 I mean, in twenty twenty two, right, there are more kids offered 504 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:30,519 school choys than as far as I know, any other year in modern school 505 00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:37,599 choice movement history. When the normies get mad, things change quite quickly. 506 00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:43,119 The education landscape in twenty twenty three is very different on the K twelve level 507 00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:47,920 than it was in twenty nineteen. I think the same thing could happen with 508 00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:54,360 universities, and in some way it's easier because they are so dependent, right, 509 00:40:54,679 --> 00:41:00,480 and there are so many policy levers that could be pushed both regulatorially, 510 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:04,719 so just through the White House with a pen in a phone. That's a 511 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,559 hell of an adverb. Yeah, regulatorially anyway, just like sure, the 512 00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:15,079 White House of the Penina phone through Congress. Also on the state level, 513 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:20,800 like these universities have a ton of property they don't get taxed on. University 514 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,280 California is the biggest landlord in the state. That's often true that the biggest 515 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:30,480 landlord in many states is the university. So I mean, look, if 516 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:34,840 we can't do it immediately on the federal level because we don't have the presidency, 517 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,960 there's lots of things that the state level can do, as the Wisconsin 518 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:45,199 example shows. But fundamentally, this is a industry of trillions that is completely 519 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:51,880 dependent on American taxpayer dollars and tax payil are jess. That's what they are. 520 00:41:52,800 --> 00:42:00,880 And it would be if indeed these kinds of hearings that are going viral 521 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,039 awaken a sleeping giant of people who are generally not you know, not like 522 00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:08,199 the listeners' podcasts, not like watching politics in and out, and just kind 523 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:14,559 of shocks them with the reality of how radical universities are. And that is 524 00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:17,320 paired with a push from the Republican Party to actually do something about it, 525 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,960 I think that could be very popular. I also think it would be again 526 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,320 one of the greatest cultural blows struck for the right again That's why I don't 527 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,880 think we should be that cynical. This is even if it's if nothing comes 528 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:37,920 of this, I think it's at least a coin flip right now in a 529 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,000 way that it hasn't been. And the evidence for that is exactly the fact 530 00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:44,920 that you Pen fired their president. Do you think they would have done that 531 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,039 if they weren't worried about it? Oh? I mean absolutely. And they 532 00:42:49,039 --> 00:42:53,920 heard immediately publicly from huge donors, and you're worried about their private donors, 533 00:42:53,920 --> 00:43:00,119 and they're worried about their funds from the government because it is being circulated the 534 00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:06,440 Hill as a possibility, and they that would collapse. They're at between the 535 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,320 private donors pulling out and the government no longer subsidizing student loans to go to 536 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:16,760 you Pen. That will bankrupt them, Yeah, and their salaries. I'm 537 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,639 hypersensitive of this because I live in DC and this is probably true in New 538 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,440 York as well. But I also think one of the reasons there was such 539 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,840 swift action taking at PEN, like huge financial incentives obviously, but when things 540 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,199 make it uncomfortable, as silly as the sounds to go to cocktail parties, 541 00:43:32,079 --> 00:43:36,480 you see action happening really quickly too. If you're on the phone with someone 542 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,480 that's kind of in the cocktail party circuit and you're in your Ivy League corridor 543 00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:46,199 at penn or up in Boston, and they think that you are perpetuating anti 544 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:51,960 semitism h and you know, they sort of weaponize I don't mean weaponize, 545 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,920 or you feel like they're weaponizing. This is from the perspective of a leftist. 546 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,960 You feel like you're you're on the receiving end of something. You do 547 00:43:58,039 --> 00:44:01,800 a lot, but in this in this case, it's entirely sincere in good 548 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,840 faith. You know, people feel like you're legitimately putting Jewish students in danger, 549 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,039 which we have seen repeatedly, and you're kind of hearing that refracted back 550 00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:15,159 to you. That is a huge social pressure as well that I also think 551 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,920 is important. It's one of the most interesting things that elite opinion is split 552 00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:22,840 when it comes to Israel in a way that it's not on transit theology. 553 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,239 At least it wasn't, you know, it's sort of going in that direction. 554 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:30,920 Now. This is one of the few areas cultural areas where elite opinion 555 00:44:30,039 --> 00:44:36,239 is split, and those flare ups make people incredibly uncomfortable, especially because their 556 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,400 own standards can be flipped against them, and we saw that with Claudine Gay's 557 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:46,079 statement after the hearing went so poorly she referenced her truth that she did not 558 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,960 clearly she regretted not clearly expressing her truth. I mean that social stuff is 559 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:59,400 powerful too. I think what's happening within university boards is the realization that and 560 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,199 you can see you could see it in that hearing. Every one of those 561 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,760 presidents had been prepped by a team of lawyers to answer exactly the questions that 562 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,719 they were answering. And what was shocking, It was honestly shocking to them 563 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:15,800 right to discover all of a sudden that those answers were not acceptable. I 564 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:22,639 think that I don't know, I find that incredibly optimistic. I love thinking 565 00:45:22,639 --> 00:45:27,079 about how uncomfortable Harvard's board is right now. I love thinking about how uncomfortable 566 00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:30,559 UPenn's board is right now. I want them to be afraid because either they're 567 00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:34,920 going to reform themselves, as something that I find probably impossible, Like I 568 00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:38,000 just doubt that they're actually going to be able to reform themselves. But if 569 00:45:38,039 --> 00:45:42,880 they don't, they're only going to strengthen the movement to actually undercut them and 570 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,760 to actually replace them, as as this conduit to wealth power, elite status 571 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:53,239 honors everything right, and the fact is they don't deserve it on so many 572 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,639 different grounds. And again I can understand, like, Okay, why is 573 00:45:57,679 --> 00:46:01,519 this the tipping Why I can understand that, But it would be to my 574 00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:06,199 mind, it would be a great tragedy if we allowed this kind of backwards 575 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:14,039 looking settling of scores to prevent us from taking out the great white whale of 576 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:19,599 the universities. I think this could be an enormously productive moment. Maybe it 577 00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:22,199 won't be, maybe it'll collapse, or maybe you know, people will just 578 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,719 get distracted and after this initial sort of SNL moment or whatever, they'll move 579 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,480 on to something else and this will go back down in the priorities of Republican 580 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:37,559 politicians correspondingly, But right now they're responding to the fact that people are horrified. 581 00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:42,199 And if we can shape that response in a productive way, I think 582 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,280 there is enormous benefit to be to be gained for the right and also, 583 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:50,039 you know, for the future of America, because this is ground zero for 584 00:46:50,639 --> 00:46:54,840 the poison that has infected what you and I see as the great things about 585 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,280 this country. Yeah, no, I mean completely ground zero, and you 586 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,320 said something interesting. That's a good probably spot to start winding down on. 587 00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:07,719 I think the disconnect between your cynicism and my optimism, my cynicism, and 588 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,320 your obcast once is a it's a very fine line, actually, and I 589 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,719 feel like we've just identified it in a sense in that you talked about the 590 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:22,679 homeschooling revolution post twenty twenty and how that's sort of an example of things changing, 591 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,639 because these are times where parallel institutions can spring up, et cetera, 592 00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:34,239 et cetera. I was looking actually also at twenty twenty and just thinking how 593 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,800 quickly all of this fell out of the news cycle and fell from everybody's attention 594 00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:44,440 and BLM went to build mansions in the shadow of the media sort of short 595 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,599 attention span, and all of this grift and corruption metastasized. And what's interesting 596 00:47:49,639 --> 00:47:52,440 about that is I think you may have persuaded me that you were right. 597 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:59,400 You may have persuaded me actually that we actually right now don't know the consequences 598 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,360 of twenty two. We have some really positive signs that things actually changed and 599 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,320 some signs that maybe things didn't change. And it's still kind of an open 600 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,800 question. But there are signs that it's it's things really have changed, and 601 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,079 signs that maybe they haven't. And maybe that's where there's kind of ambivalence. 602 00:48:16,119 --> 00:48:21,840 I don't know, what do you think about that. I think there's this 603 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:28,039 temptation to imagine that things will inevitably just continue the way they are, and 604 00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:30,639 there's been so many cataclysmic things that have happened, and yet in a day 605 00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:35,880 to day way, people, I mean, there's a certain inertia to where 606 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,400 we're at. Even though it seems like things should constantly be collapsing under the 607 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:44,199 weight of contradiction, that they just don't. I think there are a few 608 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:49,800 differences between this and twenty twenty that are important. One is that corporate America 609 00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:55,519 is not I mean, corporate America gave how many billions to BLM, I 610 00:48:55,519 --> 00:49:00,079 mean a lot. Yeah, clamartsmud actually just tracked all of it. I 611 00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:02,920 mean, the GDP of a small country went to that quote unquote movement, 612 00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:07,920 right, that matters, That kind of patronage that matters. First, why 613 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,880 I wasn't even talking about homeschooling, although that has also exploded. I was 614 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,679 talking about actually state funded school choice there's a good point the farmest number of 615 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,800 slots. There are a lot of people who have the kind of market purchasing 616 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,119 power to put their money in the kind of education that they actually want for 617 00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:28,280 their children that just did not exist in twenty nineteen, despite sort of these 618 00:49:28,679 --> 00:49:31,079 spinning the wheels efforts of the school choice movement for a very long time. 619 00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:37,599 And finally, the deeper objection I would have is, to me, twenty 620 00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:42,920 twenty was just the capstone. It was a soft coup. It really felt 621 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,199 like, at least to me in the summer of twenty twenty, when statues 622 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:51,000 were coming down, the cities were burning, that this was a capstone to 623 00:49:51,199 --> 00:49:54,519 a completed revolution that you know, just like when you change regimes. When 624 00:49:54,519 --> 00:49:58,519 the communist regime fell in Eastern Europe, right, the statues of Lenin came 625 00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:04,800 down, and when the American region felled to this long standing ideological movement to 626 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,079 destroy it, then our statues came down in twenty twenty, and it was 627 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:15,800 fully backed by every important institution in American life. Right, despite Donald Trump's 628 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:17,480 best attempts, right, very few of these people who broke the law were 629 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:21,960 ever brought to justice. Compare that to January sixth for example, So you 630 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,440 had the law behind in many cases the violation of the law, and the 631 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:31,519 mob. You had Corporate America funneling billions into this effort. Right, those 632 00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:36,119 those things, and that's exactly what makes me optimistic. I think those factors 633 00:50:36,199 --> 00:50:40,719 are now, if not in the opposite side, or are at least half 634 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,360 in our camp. As you say, it splits the elites, and so 635 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:51,039 the question then, yes, any movement has its it sort of stings and 636 00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:54,360 dies out right, And the question is what form does this take? Does 637 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,440 it take something you know, useless, like a carve out. I've given 638 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,920 my reasons why I don't think that that's tenable, but for sure that's not 639 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:07,320 something I would be in favor of. Or does it take the form that 640 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:13,480 is the equivalent of school choice in this or the structural reform that actually changes 641 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,880 the landscape of the game going forward in a way that is incredibly favorable to 642 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,760 anyone who wants to preserve, you know, life in this country as it 643 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,800 was, you know, before twenty twenty, I guess would be that capstone 644 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:31,159 moment maybe before two thousand, right, well, the frozen and Amber on 645 00:51:31,199 --> 00:51:35,840 the eve of y two k I mean again, we've talked about, like 646 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,559 why I don't think nineties liberalism is a good answer, And I'm simply saying, 647 00:51:38,639 --> 00:51:44,960 like, to preserve any aspect of the dregs of what the civilization wasn't 648 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:50,079 once dedicated to. I still am not I won't say that I'm optimistic about 649 00:51:50,119 --> 00:51:52,880 the trajectory of the country. I think there are a lot of forces are 650 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,280 rayed against this. But we have here, not an opportunity to win the 651 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,679 war, but to win a really important battle. And we shouldn't not join 652 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:07,239 that battle because of we've sort of swallowed too many black pills and we're so 653 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:13,639 cynical that we can't even sort of coalesce behind an actual policy victory that would 654 00:52:13,679 --> 00:52:16,079 be important as opposed to many small you know, policy victories would actually be 655 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:21,719 a huge cultural victory. Would take out one of the in the chest analogy, 656 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,880 right to take out the queen, right since the culture wars Gettysburg is 657 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,320 what I'm hearing you say. Yeah, I don't know if we're going to 658 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,960 win, right, like maybe the university's walk away strogger from this, you 659 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:34,400 know, I just I don't know. But what I do since is that 660 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,920 this is a better opportunity than we've been as long as I've been involved in 661 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,280 this, and I suspect for many decades before. This is a better opportunity 662 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,719 to take down the universities than we've ever had, and it would be a 663 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,599 shame if we didn't at least try to take advantage of it. And let's 664 00:52:46,599 --> 00:52:51,400 hope and probably that people in positions are powered don't squander that opportunity. And 665 00:52:51,519 --> 00:52:54,559 as Stepman of the Independent Women's Forum where she hosts the Wonderful podcast, I 666 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,960 knew this was a great idea. It was a great conversation. I really 667 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,880 appreciate you coming on and you know, expressing your truth in us. Well, 668 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,880 it's always fun to share truths with you, Emily. Sometimes my truth 669 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,519 is different than your truth, but we'll table that for now. You've been 670 00:53:13,559 --> 00:53:15,840 listening to another edition of The Federalist for radio hour. I'm Emily Dashinski, 671 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,840 culture editor here at The Federalist. Will be back soon with more. Until 672 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:36,199 then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the Pray