1 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,400 This week's trib cast is sponsored by Raise your Hand Texas feels. No matter 2 00:00:13,439 --> 00:00:17,879 what an education voucher is called, the policy is the same. Vouchers divert 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,519 public funds to private schools and vendors. Find out more at Raise your Hand 4 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:29,079 Texas dot org and Methodist Healthcare Ministries is committed to health equity, striving to 5 00:00:29,199 --> 00:00:35,159 create more fair and just opportunities for all to thrive. Learn more at MHM 6 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:51,560 dot org. Hello and welcome to the Texas Tribune trip Cast for July seventh, 7 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,200 twenty twenty three. I'm Alexa Udha, a reporter for the Trib filling 8 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,200 in for Matthew, who has on some well deserved time off this week. 9 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,719 Today we're talking about the heat, not just about how hot it's been in 10 00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:06,799 Texas lately and the deadly implications of that, but what this means for our 11 00:01:06,879 --> 00:01:10,879 state in the long term, as climate change shifts the entire range of Texas 12 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,799 heat upwards. Joining me this week as Aaron Douglas, the Tribunes climate reporter 13 00:01:15,079 --> 00:01:19,359 whose beat covers the impacts of climate change, including extreme heat, drought, 14 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:26,120 and hurricanes. High erin Hello, So we are chatting at the end of 15 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:30,159 the week during which we saw the hottest day on Earth since at least nineteen 16 00:01:30,359 --> 00:01:37,040 seventy nine, and potentially in much farther than that. You know, it 17 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:41,200 was a pretty awful and oppressive June. The heat way we were stuck in, 18 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,439 which seems like it's finally eased, ushered, and essentially a public health 19 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,599 crisis. And all of this comes the summer after heat related debts in Texas 20 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:55,079 reached a two decade high last year during what up to then had been the 21 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,799 state's second hottest summer on record. Can you walk us through what was going 22 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,400 on and why this heat, you know, even in a state like Texas 23 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:10,080 felt so unrelenting. Sure. Yeah, So this summer is not expected to 24 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:20,240 be abnormally hot because we are transitioning right now into an El Nino. Last 25 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,840 summer, we were in a La Ninia pattern, which is essentially like a 26 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:28,879 big weather pattern caused by the oceans. But basically what it means for Texas 27 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:34,639 is that La Nina tends to bring us drier weather and that tends to exacerbate 28 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,719 heat. And so last year when we had that record hot summer, we 29 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:43,400 were in a La Ninia pattern, and so we thought heading into this summer 30 00:02:43,439 --> 00:02:46,919 that it would be a little better, but then we had this big heat 31 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:52,919 dome event happened. And essentially a heat dome is a weather pattern, and 32 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,159 so what we had was, you know, more than three weeks of one 33 00:02:55,199 --> 00:03:00,280 hundred degree temperature stretching across the state, you know, shattering record. It's 34 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,639 prompting all these excessive heat warnings. And heat waves are very dangerous because they 35 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,960 were so big, and they last for so long, and they affect a 36 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:12,360 huge area as we saw, like thousands of miles, and they most often 37 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,639 occur in the summer when we have very weak circulation in the atmosphere and not 38 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:20,159 a lot of energy, and so weather patterns just kind to tend to kind 39 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:23,479 of just sit on top of you. And so you know, one reason 40 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,719 you might hear it called a heat dome is because the air is essentially shaped 41 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,439 like an inverted stadium, and the warm air gets trapped above an area with 42 00:03:31,479 --> 00:03:36,639 a lot of pressure forming and that pushes the air downward. So the air 43 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,879 is sinking, sinking, compressing, and as that air is pushing downward, 44 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:46,919 it warms up. Is like a thermodynamic relationship, right, And so because 45 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:53,000 there's so much pressure pushing downward. It's also squeezing out any chance for clouds 46 00:03:53,039 --> 00:03:55,680 to form to kind of break up this weathered pattern, and so they tend 47 00:03:55,719 --> 00:04:00,039 to stick around for a long time as we saw. And the other issue 48 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:03,479 with heat domes is that usually we get a break from the heat in Texas 49 00:04:03,479 --> 00:04:08,439 when the sun goes down at night. But in this type of weather system, 50 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,599 the air keeps compressing at night. It doesn't stop when the sun goes 51 00:04:12,639 --> 00:04:15,240 down, and so it continues to create more and more heat even in the 52 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,360 nighttime. So that's basically what happened the last couple of weeks. Yeah, 53 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:25,000 I'm not sure I had ever even heard the term heat dome before this, 54 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,160 and that inverted stadium is actually a really easy visual to really understand that. 55 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,839 You know, there was a line in one of your recent stories that it's 56 00:04:34,879 --> 00:04:40,439 probably just sort of basic knowledge to people like you who sort of think about 57 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,519 this all day as part of your job. But I found it really astounding 58 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,160 and really saddening that heat is already the most dangerous type of weather, typically 59 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:56,240 killing more people annually than hurricanes, tornadoes, or flooding. As we think 60 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:01,680 about the events of the last few weeks and this heat dome and the impact 61 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:08,519 of these sort of weather events on on folks and the sort of deadly implications 62 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,279 of that. Should we be thinking about it as a new normal? Is 63 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,959 it something that's going that we're going to be seeing more regularly. Is it 64 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,639 still a bit of an outlier? How? How should we think about this 65 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:25,839 knowing that he is already so dangerous to people. Yeah, he is extremely 66 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,920 dangerous, And I think people take it for granted because it's kind of a 67 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,120 silent killer in a way. And even trying to cover this extreme event, 68 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:39,959 you know, you hear some anecdotes of folks being reported who are who are 69 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,160 dying in the heat, but it's hard to get it like an overall sense 70 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:46,319 of the damage because there's not like a big flooding event where you can see 71 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,120 all like literally sealed infrastructure damage, you know. Um, But in terms 72 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,560 of like whether it's a new normal. I actually saw a quote from climate 73 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:59,240 scientist Michael Mann, who's who's a very famous climate scientist, and he was 74 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:02,519 quoted in the Asociated Press about a week or two ago where he said along 75 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:06,279 these lines that quote, if we continue to warm the planet, we don't 76 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:11,879 settle into some new state, it's an ever moving baseline of worse and worse. 77 00:06:12,319 --> 00:06:15,040 And I think that really captures the problem here, which is like, 78 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:25,959 it's not as though we are headed towards a certain new climate if we continue 79 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,160 to put fossil fuels into the atmosphere, and until we stop putting fossil fuels 80 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,759 into the atmosphere and creating heat trapping gases in the globe, then we continue 81 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:39,800 the progression of more and more bad. And so that's why it's not like 82 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:46,879 an either or it is with every reduction that we get in not putting as 83 00:06:46,959 --> 00:06:50,279 much greenhouse gases into the atmosphere is a good thing. And then because it 84 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:56,879 reduces it mitigates the impact of climate change. And with heat waves in particular, 85 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,480 you know, there's a lot of severe weather events where we may not 86 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,199 have the science to say exactly how climate change is messing with severe weather events, 87 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:09,319 or we may know a little bit, but not all the waves or 88 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,879 all the mechanisms. Heat is interesting because it's very clear, there's been a 89 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:16,040 lot of studies on it, and you know, climate change is clearly amplifying 90 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:19,720 the effects of heat waves, and they're stretching for longer periods of time, 91 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:25,160 they're reaching higher temperatures than they would otherwise if climate change was not happening, 92 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,519 and they're occurring more often than they would otherwise if climate change was not occurring. 93 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,839 Well, and when you when you think about sort of the gradual way 94 00:07:33,879 --> 00:07:41,920 in which this occurs. The there was recent reporting that y'all did showing really 95 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,240 how over the last ten years, you know, taking a step back, 96 00:07:45,319 --> 00:07:47,759 right, not thinking just of how hot it is today or how hot it's 97 00:07:47,759 --> 00:07:51,600 been this summer, taking a step back and realizing that over the last ten 98 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,639 years that I think that the figure was there were more than sixteen hundred days 99 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,160 when a heat record was matched or broken one of the twenty two weather stations 100 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:07,800 across Texas. And then even taking a farther step back, there was a 101 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,480 figure that showed that the number of record high temperatures measured across the state had 102 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:18,720 increased five hundred and ten percent essentially in the last one hundred years. So, 103 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:22,959 I mean, help us understand how climate change makes things like extreme heat 104 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:28,120 worse, Like, what is the actual science behind the extreme heat variations that 105 00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:33,440 we're seeing and feeling. Yeah, So if you think about the main mechanism 106 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:39,919 of climate change is heat being trapped by an increased amount of carbon dioxide and 107 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:46,519 other heat trapping gases in the atmosphere. So if that's trapping more heat energy, 108 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:52,799 then that's pushing the average temperature that we're seeing upwards, and that makes 109 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:58,159 extreme heat higher than we would have otherwise. And so it's essentially as you 110 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,320 said earlier, like shifting the whole baseline to the right, I guess a 111 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,799 little bit. And so you know, the problem is particularly pronounced in areas 112 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:13,120 in very dry areas like the Southwest due to a lack of soil moisture. 113 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,399 And there are some areas of the US where you know, if you have 114 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:24,080 a lot of humidity, soil moisture vegetation, then that kind of produces a 115 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,879 cooling effect. But you know, what we saw in the data was areas 116 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:33,720 where we had a lack of moisture had a really pronounced effect, like seeing 117 00:09:33,759 --> 00:09:39,440 a lot more extreme heat days and a lot more increase in average temperature. 118 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,080 I did want to say too, like you know that figure of in the 119 00:09:43,159 --> 00:09:46,279 last decade there were more than you know, sixteen hundred days of record hot 120 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,679 days. So we compared it to our data team did some fancy analysis. 121 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:56,759 They figured out that an average decade in Texas starting from the very beginning, 122 00:09:56,759 --> 00:10:01,600 as as far back as we have records from like eighteen ninety five, in 123 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,799 average decade in Texas, we would expect to see around five hundred and sixty 124 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,080 record hot days a year, and so that's a huge difference. Like in 125 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:15,360 the last decade we saw sixteen hundred verses, what an quote unquote normal decade 126 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,360 would be would be five hundred and sixty. Yeah, that that is quite 127 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,480 a quite good jump. Um. You know, as part of this analysis, 128 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,200 you also found that, you know, obviously every county in Texas has 129 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,720 seen an average increase in temperatures over this sort of last decade that you were 130 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,200 using as a measurement, but that there are areas of the state that have 131 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:41,120 seen sort of more pronounced jumps in these record breaking temperatures. It was West 132 00:10:41,159 --> 00:10:46,080 Texas, the Panhandle and the Goal. Why why why is this not thought 133 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,279 equally? I know you mentioned things like vegetation and and sort of the ability 134 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:56,480 to the soil retention or rather humidity or moisture retention in the soil, But 135 00:10:56,639 --> 00:11:01,519 what what is going on that these areas of this eight are feeling it so 136 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:07,080 much more significantly than other areas. Yeah, So, like we mentioned, 137 00:11:07,159 --> 00:11:11,639 one of the main factors is places with low soil moisture, they're really seeing 138 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:18,879 that excess solar radiation. There's no cooling effect for them to help them out. 139 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,320 You know, you can kind of think about it like as sweating. 140 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:28,799 You know, if there's an if there's excess solar radiation happening because of climate 141 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,879 change and because more of the heat is getting trapped in the atmosphere and reflecting 142 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:37,080 back down to Earth. You know, we sweat to cool our bodies down. 143 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,519 Plants are essentially doing the same thing. Some of the excess energy basically 144 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,120 is going into evaporating the water and that's producing that cooling effect. But there's 145 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,120 other factors as well, Like a couple of scientists mentioned to me, just 146 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,960 increased urbanization of our cities, especially in places like Texas where we're growing super 147 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:01,360 super fast and cities are expanding, suburbs are expanding, and and there's two 148 00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:05,000 problems with that. One is that there's something called the urban heat island effect, 149 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:11,720 which you know listeners may know about that, but essentially concrete buildings, 150 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:18,320 a lack of green spaces that is causing ground level heat to radiate and that 151 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:22,960 increases the temperatures and cities because you're just bouncing back the heat. You're not 152 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,919 absorbing it or putting it into putting it into anything. You're just taking it 153 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:33,480 all in versus if you had green spaces or something reflective, then we wouldn't 154 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,799 have that happening. And then we also have the second problem, which is 155 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,159 just that more people are vulnerable to dangers from the heat because they're living in 156 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:50,120 hot cities. So that makes another another problem other factors. You know, 157 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,879 weather is just random sometimes and that's one thing that the state climatologists pointed out. 158 00:12:56,799 --> 00:12:58,799 You know, there's a lot of different factors, but you know, 159 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,919 climate change, soil moisture, and urban areas, those are some, but 160 00:13:05,159 --> 00:13:09,720 also weather patterns should happen and so and so there's just a lot of variation 161 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:13,480 and so it's interesting to see. But I think the main takeaway is that, 162 00:13:15,039 --> 00:13:20,919 you know, not all places are going to be affected equally, but 163 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:26,600 all places in Texas are warming. Let's take a quick break to hear from 164 00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:31,840 our sponsors, Texas BioMed pioneers and shares scientific breakthroughs that protect our communities. 165 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:39,360 Health starts with Science. Health Starts at Texas BioMed. Visit tx BioMed dot 166 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:46,799 org for more and Texas Association of Community Colleges. Our colleges provide credentials that 167 00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:52,480 meet regional and local workforce demands. Learn more at t ACC dot org. 168 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:58,639 And so obviously we think about the way to respond or the things that need 169 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:03,279 to change in light of these this increasing baseline and we think about things like 170 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:07,080 a resalient electric grade, which is something that everyone's often you know, top 171 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,159 of mind for a lot of folks given the last few years here, not 172 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,399 just in extreme weather events when it's cold, but now in the summer when 173 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,519 that demand for you know, running a c is increasing. But you've also 174 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:26,960 talked to experts who have offered other examples, things like dams and infrastructure that 175 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:33,240 can also be affected by these sort of increasing baseline temperatures. What how do 176 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:39,440 we adapt to this and is there a need to sort of separate those changes 177 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,840 on sort of a macro and micro level, because there's an extent to which 178 00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:50,440 I think that an individual person might not be able to make a big difference 179 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:56,480 in some of these bigger infrastructural conversations. I would think, yeah, yeah, 180 00:14:56,519 --> 00:15:00,879 So on the infrastructure stuff, I think one of the to really keep 181 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:07,840 in mind is that just a few degrees of difference can really jeopardize electricity and 182 00:15:09,679 --> 00:15:13,919 other types of infrastructure, like are what you call what we kind of call 183 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:18,120 the built environment is very very vulnerable to changes in our climate because we kind 184 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:24,440 of built up our whole society assuming that there was a certain range of weather 185 00:15:24,879 --> 00:15:28,639 and a certain range of temperature that was going to happen, and now we're 186 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:35,840 falling outside of that range more and more frequently, and so with the grid, 187 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,759 the grid is as you said, like very stressed by higher demand when 188 00:15:39,799 --> 00:15:45,200 we see extreme heat, you know, people crank up their air conditioning at 189 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,039 the same time, like higher temperatures are arriving earlier in the season. So 190 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:54,840 it's not just that we're falling outside of the range of the temperatures. It's 191 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:02,000 also that different there's different patterns in when we're seeing the high temperatures, and 192 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:07,279 so that kind of makes a smaller and smaller window for power plants to make 193 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,919 repairs or like make upgrades when they typically do that in the spring and fall, 194 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,000 when they don't expect to see a lot of high demand. Now we're 195 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:18,799 seeing high demand in the spring and fall because there's very hot temperatures around. 196 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:25,159 So that's one problem you mentioned the dams. You know a lot of dams 197 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,919 are small, they're privately owned, they were built decades ago. One issue 198 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:37,639 with climate change is just that you know, extreme rainfall events were less common 199 00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:41,720 when they were built, and so it's calling into question the structural integrity of 200 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:45,879 dams. It's also just with drought, like on the flip side, having 201 00:16:45,919 --> 00:16:49,919 prop problems with you know, dams just not being filled in not being a 202 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:56,159 reliable source of water supply for us. Here, I think the point about 203 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:03,399 like splitting up the big like macro level infrastructure and the micro is really important 204 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:10,279 because on kind of like the micro level, higher heat and like earlier heat 205 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:14,680 than we're used to is affecting people on like a human individual level. For 206 00:17:14,759 --> 00:17:18,680 example, like we heard in Webb County where some of the heat related deaths 207 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,119 were being reported a couple of weeks ago, was that, you know, 208 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:26,640 the medical examiner there said, well, they heard that some people were going 209 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,279 to fix their air conditioning unit, but they hadn't got around to it yet 210 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,799 because we usually see this type of heat in like late July or August, 211 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,440 and so you know, she was saying their County was caught off guard, 212 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,559 like not just the government, but like individual residents were caught off guard by 213 00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:48,400 how extreme this heat was and how early in the season it was. So 214 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:55,079 I think that's a really like key issue is like informing everyday people, you 215 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,519 know, just on an individual level, that you know you might need to 216 00:17:57,559 --> 00:18:03,680 do your semi preparations earlier than you did in the past. You need to 217 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,759 be more prepared for higher temperatures, and you've seen in the past, even 218 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:11,799 if you live in an already very very hot area, it's getting more and 219 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:18,640 more extreme. Speaking with the macro level part of this, you know, 220 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:23,319 we we we're still in a special session now, but we ended a regular 221 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:30,599 legislative session a few months ago or weeks ago in which Texas legislators really largely 222 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:37,839 ignored, please for for some of the critical reforms that environmental advocates had been 223 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,160 asking for. Extreme heat in particular appears to have been sort of largely cast 224 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,720 aside, or at least proposals that could have made a difference or could have 225 00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:51,799 at least tried to address some of the extreme heat we're seeing on the effects 226 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:56,359 on folks. We know, things like droughts are worsened by higher temperatures, 227 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:03,880 and instead it often seems like Texas is taking sort of more reactionary steps than 228 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,759 preventative. You're thinking about in the case of drifts, for example, spending 229 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:12,960 millions of dollars to boost water supplies instead of having sort of these broader conversations 230 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,759 about climate change and what the state needs to do. Obviously, we're in 231 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:21,920 a state with Republican leadership, you know, a party that hasn't always been 232 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,160 open to having conversations about climate change or even acknowledging that it's real. Is 233 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:33,759 there a political will to sort of take on those macro level changes and considerations 234 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:40,400 that need to happen, And do we turn to state legislatures for that or 235 00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:44,720 is the venue on a more federal level. How do you sort of pass 236 00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:49,240 through the need to have some sort of political will to do something about this. 237 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,680 Yeah, we didn't see very much discussion of climate change in the legislature 238 00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,000 this past session, if anything to the extent timate change is mentioned. And 239 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:06,160 she's really like saying things like ESG and renewable energy are are bad and should 240 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,079 be stopped in Texas. Sort of like the dominant narrative for Texas Republicans right 241 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,559 now. But I would say, like, as you mentioned, there does 242 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:21,079 seem to be some political will to do things like upgrade our infrastructure such as 243 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:25,559 the power grid and water supplies, and you know, I consider that climate 244 00:20:25,559 --> 00:20:27,359 policy. You know, even if they're not saying the words climate change. 245 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,599 There was also political will to put some money towards building the Eike Dike and 246 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,519 the coastal Barrier along Galveston Bay, and that'll you know, that project is 247 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:45,279 intended to help protect the Houston region from hurricanes, and you know comes as 248 00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:49,480 a result of Hurricane Ike for it's it's named after. So I mean, 249 00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:56,279 I think stuff like that, there is will to say we're going to protect 250 00:20:56,319 --> 00:21:03,000 our state from weather, but not from climate change. And I think the 251 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:10,640 question becomes whether Texas is going to do those types of infrastructure upgrades in a 252 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,720 way that makes sense if agencies and leaders implementing the policy and those regulations and 253 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,480 that money aren't taking climate change into account, and so that becomes a big 254 00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:27,480 question. The other question is just whether things that are more squarely related to 255 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,880 climate change, like extreme heat, gets the attention from womakers that it really 256 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,640 deserves. As it becomes more and more of an emergency, and I think 257 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,599 to your point about like what the proper venue is for it at all venues 258 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:48,519 they think are good. But we do see some action on the local level 259 00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:52,599 in particular. You know, when I was calling around doing some reporting on 260 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,079 this heat dome, you know I heard from Dallas County, for example, 261 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:03,960 where they have a program to ensure that you can get an affordable or even 262 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:08,640 like free air conditioning unit or they'll help you fix it. And so that's 263 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,440 a good that's a good local program that is helping people deal with the effects 264 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:21,160 of climate change. There are cooling centers that local governments like to implement, 265 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,400 but a lot of people don't use them or even know that they exist. 266 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:32,279 So that's a more challenging policy with like mixed results. I think there are 267 00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:40,079 things we could do, Like our prisons are very dangerous for folks that incarcerated 268 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,559 people and staff in prisons that don't have air conditioning, and that makes it 269 00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:53,319 really unsafe for people there. The legislature did not put money towards fixing that 270 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,680 problem this year, which I think was a big disappointment to advocates in that 271 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:03,799 space and also time advocates. So it's a mixed bag. There's a lot 272 00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:07,480 of money coming down from the federal government that is going to try to address 273 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:11,119 some of these things, and I think it kind of remains to be seen 274 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,960 whether Texas is going to take advantage of it and apply it in a way 275 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:18,799 that makes sense for the state in the context of climate change. Yeah, 276 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:27,839 because I think you have these broader policy conversations about the effects of extended drought 277 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,039 on industries like agriculture and the production of all sorts of goods and foods. 278 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,160 And there's the financial toll on farmers and ranters who are behind that work. 279 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:45,039 But then it's also about daily lives, right the folks who maybe don't have 280 00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:52,039 the financial means to actually fix up their air conditioning system or the ability to 281 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:57,559 sort of keep their homes safely cooled during these sort of weather patterns. Obviously, 282 00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:03,279 the folks whose jobs it is to work outside in these environments. And 283 00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:08,480 you know, to your point about whether this gets the enough attention or the 284 00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:14,440 sort of necessary attention by lawmakers, it seems like we we've often talked about 285 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,000 these things in the on the legislator, in the legislator sphere, through like 286 00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:25,160 industry conversations and less so on those sort of day to day tolls, which 287 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,400 which I think was particularly tough to see with you know, Web County in 288 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,160 particular, where where you quoted the chief Medical Examiner, doctor kern Stern, 289 00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:38,279 she said deaths rolled by heat stroke or rolled accidents, and accidents by definition 290 00:24:38,319 --> 00:24:42,920 are preventable, and all of these deaths could have been prevented. But it's 291 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,920 also that part where not everybody has the means to it's not sort of an 292 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:55,079 equal playing field and being able to prevent the heat's effect on you. And 293 00:24:55,519 --> 00:24:59,440 I think we see that a lot among the folks who maybe aren't as often 294 00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:04,920 part of conversation at the legislature. Yeah, for sure, I think that 295 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:18,039 the the quote from the medical examiner is really poignant because again, heat kills 296 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:26,359 more people than than other weather events annually, and with the heat getting worse 297 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,039 and worse in Texas, I think that we will see more and more deaths. 298 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:37,279 We're trying to get better about tracking it to um there's that's that's actually 299 00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:42,720 a big issue which I think that the state and local governments could take on 300 00:25:42,759 --> 00:25:47,039 if they wanted to. It's just to get a little bit better at figuring 301 00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:52,039 out just how many people are dying from the heat, because that's something that 302 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,359 you know, we're not going to get for a few more weeks in Texas, 303 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:03,359 but we won't even get the full toll. Like when we reported at 304 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,599 the end of last year that we saw a two decade high and the number 305 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,079 of people dying from the heat in twenty twenty two, it was a way 306 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:18,240 under count because he is one of those conditions that you wouldn't necessarily die. 307 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:25,839 Your death certificate wouldn't necessarily say died from heat stroke. Sometimes it will, 308 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:32,160 but sometimes they'll be like heart attack, and like he was a amplifying condition 309 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,759 of that death. And so actually figuring out the like total human toll of 310 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:42,160 how much the heat is causing in excess deaths in Texas is a very very 311 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:49,119 big question and something that is not really being analyzed by governments in the state 312 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,359 right now. So I guess that's one thing that I would hope is just 313 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:59,400 that by you know, local government seeing the toll that it's taking on their 314 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,920 communities, they put more emphasis in trying to figure out exactly how bad the 315 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,200 problem is. And as that happens, maybe we get more and more momentum 316 00:27:08,519 --> 00:27:11,759 in places like the legislature, because if people are dying, you know, 317 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:17,400 whether you think it's caused by climate change or not, I think that there 318 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,880 ought to be a government response. Yeah, it's like that, it's almost 319 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,960 needing to connect all of those pieces that and starting with the fact that often 320 00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:32,839 these death certificates won't actually have the word heat in them, you know. 321 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,880 And it's also you know, I grew up speaking of Web County, I 322 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,319 grew up in Laredo, and like this was a place where, you know, 323 00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:44,559 on those late summer days, you'd be sweating just from the walk from 324 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,240 your office to your car while you waited for your ac to really like higgin 325 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,400 and that was if you had AC in your car, right, And this 326 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,519 was a place where the like the kids who were in banned had to practice 327 00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:00,880 in the mornings before school instead of after because the parking lots were just too 328 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,759 hot for them to actually be able to practice in the in the evenings. 329 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,200 And like all of those things I think are often just like a way of 330 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:14,440 a life in areas like Laredo where you do have you know, hotter temperatures 331 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,480 in general. But this idea of people dying by heat stroke was like not 332 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,480 and these like warnings and the need to sort of be more preventive preventative about 333 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,960 this are not sort of things I remember even hearing about growing up there. 334 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,559 And I do wonder if as this problem becomes more widespread, as you see 335 00:28:34,799 --> 00:28:44,599 temperatures increase across the state and more and more folks are sadly affected by this, 336 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,839 often in the worst case scenario, was even killed by this. It 337 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:53,599 is there the possibility that the conversation or the willingness to have the conversation on 338 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:59,119 a policy level changes when more people feel the impact of this, when it's 339 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,960 not just like one community that's used to living in hot temperatures, but when 340 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,319 you have more communities that are having to deal with the effects of that, 341 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,799 and whether that actually does bring some change to how we even talk about some 342 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,960 of these things. Yeah, I think maybe, but also maybe not, 343 00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:26,279 Because Yeah, I spoke to some researchers about the communication of climate change, 344 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,119 and IL has a really great program on climate change communication where they do some 345 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:37,079 studies and surveys of public perceptions of climate change and extreme weather events, and 346 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,680 studies have basically found that Republicans and Democrats who go through the exact same weather 347 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:49,119 event characterize it differently in terms of whether it was caused by climate change or 348 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,960 not, and go through the exact same thing, and their political beliefs will 349 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:59,319 cause them to interpret that event with a certain lens. Right. But on 350 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,039 the other hand, there we are seeing in some of the surveys that an 351 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:07,880 increasing number of Americans believe that climate change is occurring. Almost three quarters of 352 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,000 Americans now believe climate change is occurring. And the researcher I spoke with said 353 00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:19,119 she's seeing emerging evidence that experience with extreme weather maybe now playing a bigger role 354 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:25,240 in people's perceptions of realizing that climate change is happening than it did in the 355 00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:27,400 past. And so I think we're kind of on the early edge of this 356 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:34,720 and maybe you know, as we see sadly more extreme weather events and more 357 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:40,640 of the impacts in people's backyards, then they may start to change their mind. 358 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,039 Well, Aaron, thanks for chatting with me about this this week. 359 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,880 That's all the time we have. Thank you to our sponsors, Raise your 360 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:55,319 Hand, Texas Methodist Healthcare Ministries of South Texas, Texas BioMed, and the 361 00:30:55,359 --> 00:31:00,359 Texas Association of Community Colleges. Thanks as well to our producer just In and 362 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,279 On Behalf of Matthew, who we hope does not abandon us for the cooler 363 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:08,200 temperatures and scenic views of Colorado. Thanks for listening. 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