WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:09.679 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. This week, 2 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:13.480 on our panel, we have Aj O'Neill yo, yo yo, coming 3 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:19.760 at you live from death by common cold. Oh my. We also have 4 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:24.920 Dan Shapier. It's been like ninety degrees here, aj Yeah, I had 5 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:28.760 two sets of family come in to town. I caught something somehow. It 6 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:34.679 put me on bed rest for three days. Well, it's definitely over and 7 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:38.799 it's definitely over ninety degrees here in Israel, in Tel Aviv, and it's 8 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:47.200 also kind of humid. So yeah, me from here. Awesome. We 9 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:53.000 also have Steve Edwards yo, coming at you from as always cloudy Portland. 10 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.439 Look, I'm wishing for some heat, dance and some heat my way. 11 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:02.759 Please. We sent a basketball player your way, oh, in the draft, 12 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:08.359 well not exactly. He was traded to Portland right before the draft. 13 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.719 He was playing in Washington before. And Danny amdeeyes, an Israeli basketball player. 14 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:18.079 Oh cool, yeah, I mean boy, the international players are rule 15 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:23.640 in the draft anymore. Yeah, France dominated, Oh yeah draft, yeah 16 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:30.000 for sure. Yeah, I watched sports ball. The Euros are still going 17 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.640 on anyway. I'm Charles Maxwood from Top End Devs and yeah, I've had 18 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:38.840 family come into town. It's been ninety degrees here. I'm not sick. 19 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:42.319 I just have seasonal allergies. Different story. Anyway. We have a special 20 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:49.560 guest and that is Michael Arnaldi. And yeah, do you want to introduce 21 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.719 yourself. Let us know what effect you're having on the JavaScript community. That 22 00:01:53.840 --> 00:02:00.680 was really Steve. Yes, we're starting on dead jokes and yeah, very 23 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:02.879 funny topic. Hold on, hold on, here we go. Sorry, 24 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:08.919 I was doing something else. That's too late. I'm promitedly. I'm currently 25 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:14.800 sitting in Siena. I have no idea how much it is in Feirenheit, 26 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:20.599 but it's definitely hot. And what is it peaning? Well, Celsius, 27 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:25.639 Celsius, Yes, you know, we're European. We work on normal measurements. 28 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:32.080 No, I have to I have to say that. You know, 29 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:38.000 we also use this in Israel. But generally speaking, the metric system makes, 30 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:43.000 you know, makes more sense in my opinion. But for actually, 31 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:47.240 in the case of temperature, I think fahrenheit might be a more human scale. 32 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:53.439 Yeah. Primagen was mentioning this because you can say something like, oh, 33 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:55.800 it's in the seventies today, and that kind of gives you a you 34 00:02:55.840 --> 00:03:00.879 know that gives you a brain a broad range, like how seventies, low 35 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.960 seventies, where's celsius? It's like it's twenty three, or it's twenty four, 36 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:07.719 or it's twenty five or whatever it is, But like the range is 37 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:13.680 the number. Yeah, it's kind of like you know the grades you get 38 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.039 in school, where you know you're graded from zero, and maybe you're graded 39 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:23.319 from zero to one hundred, but literally everything below fifty is basically essentially fail 40 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:29.639 in the same so it's you're really graded from something like sixty to ninety. 41 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:36.439 Yeah. Well when I lived in Italy, yeah, I mean there's a 42 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:40.280 huge difference between thirty and forty. There's much less difference between seventy and eighty. 43 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.360 Yeah. Sure in fahrenheit. So so it's sort of like the Richter 44 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.639 scale where you go up it's a magnitude of ten every time a number goes 45 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:52.680 up. Oh, we should do that. It works. No, Celsius 46 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:57.080 is linear, it's just that it goes from water freezing to water boiling. 47 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:05.159 So yeah, so anything about fifty, about sixty as you're dead yeah yeah, 48 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:11.759 and in very hot summer it goes to like forty five sometimes. Oh 49 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.839 yeah, you are basically a non human at that point. Yeah, when 50 00:04:15.839 --> 00:04:19.319 I lived in on Kona for basically the entire month of August, it was 51 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.879 one hundred and three, it was like one hundred and three. Here it 52 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:28.040 was it was forty two, and it was a hundred percent humidity. And 53 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.519 so, you know, I was a missionary for the church, and so 54 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:36.160 I could only take off so many of my clothing articles before, right, 55 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:40.240 I could not take off enough to get comfortable. Let's just put it that 56 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.879 way. So, yeah, my daughter's been in Thailand for the last year 57 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:48.439 as a teacher, and before she came home, we you know, I 58 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:53.680 look at the weather and it was like, you know, about one hundred 59 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.439 with ninety percent humidity or something like that. She sort of got used to 60 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:00.959 it. So it's you know, she comes back here like, oh man, 61 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:02.079 this is nothing. I want my heat back. I'm like, well, 62 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.639 I don't know about that much, but I look at I look at 63 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:09.759 the temperature, so it's only seventy five in Chang Mai. And then my 64 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.399 wife would say, but that's at night, right, Oh yeah, yeah. 65 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:16.240 Well, before we get to into typescript and whatnot, I'll just mention 66 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:20.399 that my daughter is currently in Sri Lanka, so yeah, yeah, oh 67 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:28.879 fine, Yeah, so normalizing cold places currently, no, go do it 68 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:31.800 a shirt and tie. That's fun. Anyway, So we're we're talking about 69 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:38.399 effect and just for our listeners if you're wondering, because if you google it, 70 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:42.560 effect is kind of a common word. It's effect. That website is 71 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.240 the web page you're looking for, so you can get into Okay, what 72 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:49.040 is this and what does it do? But uh, we're on a podcast 73 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:53.000 and we're going to assume that you haven't done that. So Michael, what 74 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:57.680 is it and what does it do? Well, that's a that's a broad 75 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.560 question. I would I would have to say that in general, it's a 76 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:08.879 kind of a typescript framework to write production great code. It really came to 77 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:15.240 exist out of out of needs on a company I was working with when we 78 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:19.439 migrated a lot of system from the JVM JavaScript in the back end. Because 79 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:24.240 you know, we were crazy people around about five or six years ago. 80 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:29.680 Why would you why would you ever use a typescript on a serious on a 81 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.680 serious back end project. Well, it ended up costing way less than the 82 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:40.319 JVM, and productivity was kih rocketing. The only issue is there was nothing 83 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:45.639 to write really production grade code. I have to interrupt you here because the 84 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.639 previous company that I worked at, which is Next Insurance, I left them 85 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:54.399 about one and a half ago. Uh. The front end was obviously you 86 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:59.680 know web so it's it's it's JavaScript, it's react or it's Angular or react 87 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.800 eate if it's a mobile device. But the back end was all JVM. 88 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:09.639 It was implemented in Courtlin and it was all JVM. And you know when 89 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:16.240 I jokingly mentioned the possibility of implementing that stuff that business project in uh in 90 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:23.160 JavaScript, I was met with hysterical laughter. Well you see I was CEO, 91 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:30.839 so the hysterical laughter was less less present in that case. But yes, 92 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:38.560 it is a hysterical laugh. But that's the point. It's it's a 93 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:44.000 very nice language, but it's really hard to use it when you care about 94 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:51.040 the software you write, and I mean writing testable software, writing software debt 95 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.480 can be monitored well, stuff like observability and so on and so forth. 96 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:05.160 It's a recent brand, but even six years ago when I started developing Effect 97 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.399 as an internal project, my main goal was clean up the mess that we 98 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:16.519 were building and we had We had been developing banking applications and everything needed to 99 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:22.040 be monitored properly. We had at the time what was called open tracing, 100 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:30.519 which later got sort of merged into open telemetry as a as a larger effort, 101 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:37.440 and we had promite us for metrics we had well we had to do 102 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:43.519 that stuff. So our code was basically a hell of fright catches. Try 103 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.399 open span, catch closed span if there is an error. Finally, you're 104 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.600 talking about the typescript code, right, You're not. I'm talking about the 105 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:58.720 typescript code. Can I Before we dive into typescript and obviously affect, which 106 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:03.480 is like the gist of this conversation, I do want to talk a little 107 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:09.120 bit more, if I may, about that decision to move off of the 108 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:15.320 JVM and move over to typescript. Now, I watched your the talk that 109 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:20.320 you recently gave an excellent talk at the Effect conference. I think it was 110 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.919 a closing keynote something like that about how Effect came to be high. You 111 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.080 know, obviously we'll discuss it here as well, but it's still a highly 112 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:33.279 recommended talk in my opinion. But I do have to ask like a general 113 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:39.919 question about JVM versus node, because if you're talking about back end in JavaScript 114 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:45.360 or typescript, you're basically talking about Note, maybe band maybe Dino, but 115 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:50.080 you know, essentially it's more or less more the same. You know, 116 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.360 one of the reasons that I mentioned, like about the circa laugh is not 117 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.440 necessarily about the programming language itself. I guess that comes to play into it 118 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:05.240 as well, But it's also about like whether or you know, JVM being 119 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:13.399 an enterprise grade platform and doubting JavaScript or the JavaScript engines as enterprise grade platforms. 120 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:18.480 What do you think about that? Well, for so, I would 121 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:26.159 challenge the fact that the JVM is generally enterprise ready, and the second element 122 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:33.000 is I would challenge what enterprise ready means. Actually, I know a lot 123 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:39.679 of back and developers who six seven years ago they would never think of writing 124 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.919 back in dye script with no JS. At that point in time, there 125 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.200 was no other choice. There was only no JS. Only more recently came 126 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:52.960 to exist other run times such as Bando and so on and so forth. 127 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:58.080 So at that point in time, it was really targeting purely no JS. 128 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:03.399 And the usual complaints are like, that's not multi Threddit, But on the 129 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:09.879 other side, you actually need multi threading. Uh, probably not. And 130 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:16.519 and there has been a more recent wave of I don't know how to explained, 131 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:22.559 but people, that's saving us a goal. Pull me I was crazy, 132 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:28.039 Now tell me I'm right in hammurgers, I could make out of the 133 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:35.000 sacred cows you guys have been slaughtering to be To be fair, with regard 134 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.559 to multi threading, I totally agree with you, I think, especially in 135 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:41.879 this day and age of containers and the fact that in many cases you're you're 136 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:48.519 intentionally limiting the number of cores per container. Then, especially then, then 137 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:52.480 the whole point of multi threading kind of goes out the window in a lot 138 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.440 of ways. So the event loop mechanism that you know jobscript uses is very, 139 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:03.200 very effect active for this type of thing. And people forget that note 140 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:09.879 was created with JavaScript initially because Ryan Dahl was looking for something like an event 141 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:15.919 loop and this whole mechanism, especially now with the sink a weight, it 142 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.919 becomes much easier. But my point is actually something else. It's more about 143 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:30.480 the robustness of the platform itself. Like you know how the garbage collector for 144 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:35.000 example, or the networking stack. I mean, how far do you trust 145 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:41.759 them compared to quote unquote enterprise grade solutions. You know, whether they be 146 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:46.679 the JVM or GO or something like that. Well, I mean, if 147 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:52.480 you speak about garbage collection, you should also pick a specific algorithm to target 148 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.519 against. In the JVM, there's many different garbage collectors in the JVM, 149 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:01.840 and there's many different implementations of the A b M itself. There's more enterprise 150 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:07.919 y implementations, there's more open source implementations. The two things changed quite drastically, 151 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.519 at least at least in my in my experience when when working with the 152 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:20.639 JBM, I think overall no JS and specific can be trusted a lot. 153 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.360 I'm not too familiar with the other newer run times. I've tribe them, 154 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:33.960 but I have never deployed services that were serving millions and millions of customers based 155 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:39.879 on one Ortino, so I wouldn't be able to say with the same level 156 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.519 of confidence that they can be trusted. I'm sure they can, given that 157 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:50.039 they are. They are based on very similar jawstript run times. But the 158 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:56.279 advantage of JavaScript, and it might sound ridiculous, but it is a highly 159 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:05.039 specified language that almost from their one had very different browsers implementing it, and 160 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:11.600 it has survived in browsers for a long time. And UI development is I 161 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:18.480 disregarded UI development for years, but I think to realize that it is actually 162 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:24.000 very complex and very performance intensive, because you know, in a javastript, 163 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.279 eventually in the browser you've got only one thread, so if you block that 164 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:33.720 thread, the interface stopped. But there are interfaces that have to do a 165 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:39.960 lot of things. I was developing trading dashboards in JavaScript. There's a lot 166 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:46.759 going on in the UI of a trading dostboard that requires careful management of memory 167 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.960 and so on and so forth, and Childscript was always very fine. And 168 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.919 when developing back ends, to be honest, they never had an issue with 169 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:03.720 the garbage collector. You may have some that's totally that's totally normal, but 170 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.840 also it's it's always a trade of on how much memory you are located to 171 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.879 the jazz process and so on and so forth. If you don't allocate much 172 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.679 memory, there's not gonna be a lot of stop the word. So it 173 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:22.080 goes back to your argument of parallelism. If you parallyze at the schedular level 174 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.320 with multiple containers and so on and so forth, that's not really there's not 175 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:33.720 really any any huge problem with with JavaScript per se, at least from from 176 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:41.960 what i've seen. I've been mostly developing IO intensive applications, so I wouldn't 177 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.679 make the same argument when when we talk about see few intensiveness and and other 178 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:54.480 you know, other places in the in the scale between memory allocations and so 179 00:15:54.519 --> 00:16:00.279 on and so forth. But for io bound applications, which are like ninety 180 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.720 plus percent of what we are all developing, take the data from one database, 181 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:11.360 push it in another API, you call calf to stream out the events, 182 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.039 and you know whatnot. It's basically taking data from place A to place 183 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:22.679 B. JavaScript piece is always very effective in doing that type the type of 184 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:29.159 job. One thing that I want to point out though, is JavaScript is 185 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:33.519 multi threaded, or at least the implementations that we have are multi threaded. 186 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.759 So it's not like the old Python or the old Ruby. I believe that 187 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.279 there may be some implementations of Python and Ruby that that do take advantage of 188 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.519 multi threadedness, like what Ryan Dahl was working on in Ruby. Before he 189 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:48.000 was working a note, there was a I forget what it was called. 190 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:55.399 I think it's called a vet machine especially, but you know, it actually 191 00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:00.480 is multi threaded, and there is a performance difference whether you run on single 192 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.160 core or you run on two cores. You will get better performance running on 193 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.240 two cores, because when you're running on a single core, that means that 194 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:12.920 the background tasks can't actually run in the background, that everything has to be 195 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:19.440 on one single core, and there's no there's no ability to use the optimizations 196 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.759 that it has. And you know this is something that GO suffers from this 197 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.960 as well. In fact, that the most famous clip that we got from 198 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:33.359 the show was me saying something not quite right in the right context about this 199 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:40.200 exact scenario. So I'll try to say and the primogen picking then best basically 200 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:48.680 picking up on that, I would slightly modify the statement as saying that JavaScript 201 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:56.599 itself is single threaded. The JavaScript engine that runs JavaScript is not a single 202 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:00.200 threaded and is able to leverage multiple cores for greater efficiency. For example, 203 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:06.400 you know we talked about garbage collection. It can it actually for example V 204 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:11.839 eight actually offloads some of the garbage collection activity off of the main thread if 205 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:17.480 it to to a separate thread. And if you've got multiple cores then obviously 206 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:23.000 you bet you the benefit is greater. I Before we move on back to 207 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:27.279 effect, which is why we're all here, I would like to say that 208 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.519 I totally agree with what you said, Michael, and I would also slightly 209 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:37.000 add that also everything that's been happening with you know, on on you know 210 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:42.839 in in cloud environments like k W s LAMBDAS and edge computing has also greatly 211 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:53.720 contributed to JavaScript as a middleware slash server side programming language and platform. I 212 00:18:53.720 --> 00:19:00.680 mean, JOSKIP has been almost from from D one content center in in what 213 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:06.920 we call BFFs beaconds for front and so basically the first back and aggregating multiple 214 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:15.480 different APIs that thing was always jaskop was always very natural for that thing, 215 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:21.640 to the point where now with full stop frameworks we sort of get that embedded 216 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:27.039 in the normal architecture because if you develop enop with I don't know XJS remix 217 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:32.680 or so on and so forth, And I'm not a front end developer, 218 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:38.880 so apologies if I haven't named other very well designed frameworks, I just luck 219 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:45.920 knowledge in that specific area. But I have investigated a lot both next ys 220 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:52.200 and bmix and the fact that you have these sort of server actions or server 221 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.519 functions however you want to call them, call them, it is the classical 222 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:04.240 middleware in between your databases. Your other APIs and so on and so forth 223 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:10.799 that plut that together exactly for the purpose of serving serving the front end. 224 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:15.680 This is an io bound job to do, and JavaScript has always been perfect 225 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:22.160 for that. I think now JavaScript is also getting adopted in the layers, 226 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:29.240 more closer and closer to the actual, the actual back and back, and 227 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:38.920 so it's moving progressively taking slices and slices of the stack. I would also 228 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:45.960 slightly correct what was said before about multi threading in JavaScript, just just for 229 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:52.920 the point of obsessive correctness. It is multi threaded as an interpretation of the 230 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:57.920 language, but the language itself is not multi threaded, so there's no observability 231 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:03.319 of different threads in JavaScript. It's the engine that may or may not the 232 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:10.960 site to allocate stuff on thread pulls. Usually for example five system operations and 233 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:15.880 so on and so forth. They were backed by thread pulls up until recently, 234 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:25.839 where the kernels support a synchronous processing of files. So the access to 235 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:29.640 the flight system is now no longer using thread pulls. It's just using straight 236 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:36.519 up a non blocking, a non blocking interface, and that is completely right 237 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:41.400 V eight. But also I think also spider Monkey, but I might be 238 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:48.359 wrong in the internal details. Sometimes garbage collection is notoriously one thing that is 239 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.680 uploaded a lot of other threats. So by no means it's backed by a 240 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:57.519 single thread, but you can only observe a single threat from the language, 241 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:04.200 which makes all sense. Yeah, Also parsing the actual JavaScript into bytecode can 242 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:10.279 happen off the main thread as well. But getting back to effect, per 243 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.279 my understanding of what you were starting to say, because before I so rudely 244 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:18.960 diverted you to other topics, you were kind of in the process. You 245 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:26.039 decided to move your company off of the JVM and onto NOTE based back end, 246 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:33.200 and that resulted in you writing a lot of code and that kind of 247 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:42.880 evolved into effect eventually. So how did that magic happening? Because first of 248 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:49.359 all, another big part of the reasons why we moved no js was not 249 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:55.720 only the architecture of note that actually made sense for the services that we were 250 00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.759 running, but also it made sense as an organization decision in the company. 251 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:07.720 Because most of our developers were front and developers trained in Typescript, we didn't 252 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.920 have a lot of JVM developers. We had been using both Skala and cootling, 253 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:18.039 Coughtlin's a bit easier to get for example, for Java people, Scala 254 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.799 might be a bit more tedious, but still for a small team, having 255 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:30.519 to hire into two completely different landscapes is hard, not only for the language 256 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:34.960 but also for the runtime, you know, optimized writing code in a way 257 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.960 that is optimized in the JVM. It's hard. It's a hard topic. 258 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.440 It's a very valuable topic that many do very well. But if you have 259 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.680 five developers in totally, it's going to be very hard that you have all 260 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:56.559 the skills across the word required to write very productive software from back to front 261 00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:00.960 and the so on and so forth. So the decision was on two different 262 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:06.759 two different main reasons. One reason was the JAM was a bit heavy for 263 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:11.519 us, and the second reason was we really had typescript developers and I wanted 264 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:18.839 to use those developers across the style and not have them in silos. So 265 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:23.839 both of those reasons where were present in the decision of moving over. We 266 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:29.799 moved over progressively and we started to write plain and normal type script. But 267 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.680 as I was describing, we were reaching a point where the code was no 268 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:41.720 longer maintainable and we didn't have any tools such as for example, in Java, 269 00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:49.519 you have runtime reflection. In Rust and similar languages. You have macros. 270 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.279 You can, for example, say I want all my functions to be 271 00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.880 unnotated with spans. There's nothing similar that you can do in JavaScript or pipescript. 272 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:06.079 I used the two interchangeably. At this point in time, doing all 273 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:12.599 that work manually meant that our code was really not maintainable and let alone testability. 274 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:22.079 Testability was a horror story. So that motivated what then became effect And 275 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:26.920 it really started with me having a look at different languages and solutions available in 276 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:33.599 different languages. That's when when I found out about Skull and Zeo and and 277 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:40.920 and started taking some of the ideas into typescript land. So looking again, 278 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.000 I watched your talk, which, like I said, is excellent, and 279 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:52.240 you kind of emphasized several times there that testing and testability was a significant motivator 280 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.240 for the things that you did. Weren't things that I kind of know v 281 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:03.359 test or even then you know that testing library, Well that maybe didn't exist 282 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:08.079 at the time, but you certainly had things like like mocau or Jasmine or 283 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:12.359 jest or stuff like that. Weren't they enough in terms of testability? Well, 284 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:19.680 the issue is when you want to test using Monkey patching, you're already 285 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:26.000 in a in a place that that is exposed to a lot of problem. 286 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:33.599 Mainly you have to hook up into into the loading time of modules, and 287 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:38.039 you might have side effects all over the place. So there's there's actually no 288 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:42.799 guarantee that that you mock up the module at the right point in time for 289 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:48.559 your application to load the module, and so on and so forth and point 290 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:55.759 Q. There's no explicitness in the dependency rap. You have no idea if 291 00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:00.599 a piece of code depends on the database, depends on something else. You 292 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.880 actually have to read the code to understand that the thing. So to write 293 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:08.119 the test, you have to read the implementation. You have to know the 294 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:11.960 implementation very well, and you have to patch yourself at the right point in 295 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:17.440 time to be able to test. It is possible. I haven't said that 296 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:21.279 it's impossible. I said that it was a lot of pain, a lot 297 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:26.319 of pain in making sure that all of those problems that I've described don't end 298 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:32.279 up happening. We were doing testing. We were not doing as much testing 299 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.599 as we were doing later, but we were. We were testing a little 300 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:45.079 bit using I think at that point in time exactly much and chin if I 301 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:52.480 if I recall correctly that we still ended up using later, it's just the 302 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:57.799 the monkey patching element that that isn't that isn't great. And if you have 303 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:07.119 explain dependencies an explicit dependence injection, you can say in a very simple way, 304 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:11.559 well, I have this piece of code, just provide to it a 305 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:18.240 test dependence instead of a real dependency. Later on, I even got to 306 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:22.759 the point of doing more of end to end testing through the same tooling. 307 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:32.079 I was creating database through test containers, taking the configuration from the created container, 308 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.759 embedding the configuration into my application, and everything was running just fine. 309 00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:42.920 So the ability of doing higher order dependence injection and so on and so forth 310 00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:48.200 are really key to have an architecture that can be well tested. And it 311 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:53.079 really means an architecture that is modular enough. You could do everything without effect 312 00:28:55.079 --> 00:29:03.039 in a very diligent and precise way, but it's it's very hard and you're 313 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:11.279 naturally screw up over over time. Effect sort of forces you into into that 314 00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.799 golden path of writing software that can be tested, even if you then decide 315 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:22.839 not to test it. The properties of good testable software are properties of good 316 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.720 software. Good, good, maintainable, and good software in general. So 317 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:32.200 the point, per se is not it's not really about testing, it's it's 318 00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:37.519 rather about having it testable, which is which is more of an architectural point 319 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:42.640 of view instead of the the practice of writing the tests. Per see. 320 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:48.039 So I'll go for a chuck. I was just gonna say, it feels 321 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.559 like we're kind of talking about these theoretical properties of effect. Right, it's 322 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.000 testable, it's easy to follow along with. You know, it works in 323 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:02.079 these specific ways. Can can you give us like a concrete example of how 324 00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:07.559 effect actually leads us to right testable or maintainable software. Well, it does 325 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:12.400 explicit dependence injection. So you see when you have a function or when you 326 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:18.519 have an effect, which we should say it's a key to a smarket promise 327 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:23.200 to some extent, a promise that when you create it doesn't just start right 328 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.279 away, but you have to invoke it to make it execute the code. 329 00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:33.680 And that smart promise also attracts other two things, the errors that the program 330 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:41.440 may arise and the dependencies that the program consumes. So if I have a 331 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:44.720 piece of code that uses a database, I see that the piece of code 332 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:48.559 uses a database. But it gets more specific. If I have a piece 333 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:53.319 of code that uses the user repository or the to do repository, or any 334 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:59.720 other service that you might want. I see that explicitly in the code itself, 335 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.480 in the type of that of that effect, and I cannot run that 336 00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:10.640 effect unless I provide all the requirements. And that means when you get to 337 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:14.480 test a piece of god, you have your piece of code to invoke it, 338 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.680 you have to provide everything. If you don't provide everything, it complains 339 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:22.640 that it doesn't compile. It's not complaining in the sense that it fails at 340 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:30.319 run time. It doesn't even compile. So the LSP gives you instantaneous feedback 341 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:34.160 and saying, hey, this piece of code needs a user repository. But 342 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.599 for this test, you're not giving me a user repository. What should I 343 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:42.720 do? So you have to specify user repository, which is the case where 344 00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:49.759 you are in testing forcing you to do this. It really has complete control 345 00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:57.279 over the execution environment of that specific of that specific piece of code. But 346 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:02.480 beyond that you can do observability, you can do it or handling and so 347 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.519 on. And so for you might say I want this piece of code with 348 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:12.920 a spam that is called pool, and that span will be automatically added. 349 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.279 If you have open telemetry configured, it's going to be exported to open telemetry 350 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:23.680 and you can see your code from open telemetry dashboards such as A's many open 351 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:31.119 sources many products. I don't want to give user hints on what to be, 352 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:40.240 but I've loved many of different open telemetry based dashboards I personally like to 353 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.960 use sometimes Honeycomb, sometimes Data Dog, and so on and so forth. 354 00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:51.960 But the point is this is this is not only testable, it's also observable, 355 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:58.359 and so on and so forth. It's kind of taking all the necessary 356 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:04.400 requirements of writing the production great piece of software and putting you on track of 357 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:07.680 saying, okay, you can do all of this. This is prefect. 358 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:15.799 And in my experience, if if users or if developers can do something good 359 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:22.880 and it's easy, they do it. If it's hard, they really need 360 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:28.160 a huge justification to end up doing it. Like I don't know any developer 361 00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:34.400 who does open telemetry in development pre production stage that does not use EFFECT. 362 00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:37.920 Most of the people who use Effect end up doing open telemetry from day want. 363 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:46.079 In the company that I'm actually working at right now called size Sense, 364 00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:54.880 we're in the process of integrating open telemetry both into our Java JVM based stuff 365 00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:00.160 and into our node based stuff. And currently we're not using effect. But 366 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:06.839 I think it's currently mostly like an external type of integration, meaning that it's 367 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.840 mostly looking at the environment itself rather than business logic parts within the code. 368 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:17.840 So you know, you're monitoring things like CPU usage and memory consumption and stuff 369 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:25.119 like that, and not necessarily execution of let's say particular business processes. Well, 370 00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:30.719 monitoring stuff like CPU usage and memory consumption has nothing to do with geometry. 371 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:38.360 That's metrics. Telety is metering how long the specific invocation takes. Yeah, 372 00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:45.039 with that environment level, which means for example, tracing the lumbus. 373 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:50.760 But you're not instrumenting your code, which means if you have a button neck, 374 00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:53.800 you have no idea where the bottleneck is. Still I totally I totally 375 00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:00.440 agree with that. And by the way, I did instrument stuff using in 376 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:08.480 the past, using just the Prometheus client for node that with you know its 377 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:15.800 direct APIs. But I think the key thing that you said, and we 378 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:22.480 I hopefully you know our listeners noticed it is that it's not being enforced by 379 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:29.199 runtime errors. It's being enforced by the actual type system. And I think 380 00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:35.719 that's a key point. That it's not that if you, you know, 381 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:42.639 don't properly invoke your code, then you will get a runtime exception. It's 382 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:47.559 that if you don't properly invoke your code, the code will not compile, 383 00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:52.280 you will not be able to deploy it to begin with. And I think 384 00:35:52.360 --> 00:36:00.119 this is an extremely important point because I this school of thought, when when 385 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:06.239 talking about compilers and in general, in no specific terms, type checkers, 386 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:12.800 you could use the type checker as a way to check that everything is right, 387 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:20.519 or as a friend that tells you what's going on. Different those different 388 00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:25.559 school of thoughts end up in different extremes. The second school of thought, 389 00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:30.559 which is more more mindful of thought, which is like use the compiler as 390 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:37.360 a friend, ends up developing stuff like dependent type, dependent type type checkers 391 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:40.719 and so on and so forth, which our audience can can check out if 392 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:49.679 they are curious. But in reality, what it means is not even confiding 393 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:55.280 prevents you from running the code. But when you edit in vs code or 394 00:36:55.480 --> 00:37:00.039 in the editor that you prefer, you're going to see real time back of 395 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:06.079 what you do, the same way that you can if you type a function 396 00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:08.079 to take an argument, of a number. You can't pass it a string, 397 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:14.360 and it's very helpful not to pass it a string because you know it's 398 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.760 straight away from es code directly. Oh I'm calling it with the wrong pharmeter. 399 00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:23.480 I'm supposed to use this other thing. Well, imagine that for errors 400 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:35.320 and dependencies, and it really brings type level safety to the contract flow of 401 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:43.320 managing dependencies and errors, which are notoriously very hard things to do. And 402 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:49.960 if we, for example, isolate on errors, there are other languages that 403 00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:54.719 have type errors. Java, for example, they have typed exceptions. They 404 00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:59.920 haven't been really nice though, a lot of people complain about type exceptance. 405 00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:05.599 I would say right to be so why because when you think about errors, 406 00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:10.960 you're actually thinking about two different things, stuff that can happen but really shouldn't. 407 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.599 Like I'm running out of DISC, there's nothing to do. If I'm 408 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:19.920 running out of DISC, the program should crash. There's no way to recover 409 00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:25.159 from death. This is more a kin to an acceptance or get stuff like 410 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:31.519 I'm making an HTTP cale and the services down. Is that surprising? No, 411 00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:37.840 that's a normal. It is completely expected that services from time to time 412 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:43.920 may be offline for one or two seconds, just retry or you know, 413 00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:49.840 you have these two different types of errors that can occur, errors that you 414 00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:53.079 should deal with those and errors that you really don't care about and that should 415 00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:58.880 explode. If you have a single error model and you're pushing that you at 416 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:04.320 the same level, which is what JavaScript exceptions and Java checked exceptions and so 417 00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.440 on and so forth do, you're going to have a nightmare because then you're 418 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:15.599 going to have You're handling logic has to differentiate between between the two with effect, 419 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:20.079 we have those as independent things. If if your program explodes, you 420 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.639 have a defect. If your program raises an error, you can handle the 421 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:30.280 error very in a type manner. Yeah. I think it's a really important 422 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:34.880 distinction that you're making. And again, just maybe to clarify to users or 423 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:39.119 listeners users, it's kind of the Yeah, it's kind of the difference the 424 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:45.000 show users. Yeah, it's kind of the difference exactly. It's kind of 425 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:50.239 the difference, like you said, between running out of disk space or network 426 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:53.119 problem, which are things that, like you said, can happen and can 427 00:39:53.239 --> 00:40:00.480 reasonably happen within the lifetime of an application, versus undefined is not the function, 428 00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:07.840 which is something that should not happen. Uh and And basically Typescript was 429 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:15.000 kind of created in order to prevent from happening at run time. Uh and 430 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:19.440 And I guess that effect basically takes it to the next level, which is 431 00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:22.800 something that you expect from certain programming languages like, I don't know, like 432 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:30.519 ELM maybe, or like a Haskell, or not necessarily from a language like 433 00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:35.800 typescript. So the fact that you were able to achieve that sort of safety 434 00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:40.760 on type of typescript is quite an achievement, honestly, was surprising to me. 435 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:49.719 Again, they started by developing in Scala by myself, so I was 436 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:57.159 considering Typescript as a you know, as a lesser of a type system. 437 00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:04.239 But to be honest, since I've started developing of effects, I've realized that 438 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:09.320 typescript is an extremely powerful language, and it's extremely well designed. And the 439 00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:15.639 hopes that they had to go through to type the dynamic part of JavaScript made 440 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:23.800 it such that the type system has some incredible fichues, Like we even got 441 00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:30.920 to the point where the amount of things we could do in Typescript was greater 442 00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:36.159 than the amount of things that were possible in Scala. For example, in 443 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:40.440 Scala, you didn't have union types up until version three, which did not 444 00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:45.880 exist at that point in time, And that means the error channels had to 445 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:52.920 be an enom with a single name. But you can't say, for example, 446 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:59.519 I have an enom which is composed of three potential branches or a er 447 00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:06.280 or BO or see if I'm handling it or see, that should be removed 448 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:10.119 from the type and that wasn't possible in scalap In types. We were able 449 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:15.880 to do that from day one. So actually I realized that no, it 450 00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:21.920 is a very powerful type system, and I was completely wrong in thinking that 451 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:28.280 it was in any way less powerful than other type systems. If anything, 452 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:32.239 I still have to find another type system that gives me the same level of 453 00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:38.320 confidence. Even if we go to languages such as hospital and so on and 454 00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:45.079 so forth, those things have to be implemented on top of the type system, 455 00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:51.719 and open unions and open intersection and partial erasure of members of open unions 456 00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:58.280 and open intersections are not are not present in those in those type systems. 457 00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:04.880 So even though the languages are more restrictive, they are not powerful enough to 458 00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:10.760 represent those concepts the way that they are represented in effecting typescript. I know 459 00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:15.679 this is more theoretical and gential. Yeah, and it'll take us to a 460 00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:21.280 practical place in a second. I just want to mention again that I totally 461 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.079 agree with you, and in fact, I recently tweeted that it's pretty amazing 462 00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:32.199 how Typescript has been able to effectively implement a static type system on top of 463 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:38.559 the poster child for dynamic typing and dynamic types. It's like herding cats and 464 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:45.079 they've literally been successful at it. So it's pretty amazing. But taking us 465 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:52.039 to indeed a more practical level, you kind of described Effects as a framework. 466 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:57.880 Now, most JavaScript or Typescript developers, and again, like you, 467 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:04.760 I won't make the difference use the terms interchangeably. Most such developers these days 468 00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:09.039 are using some framework. They might be using like you mentioned Remix and xt 469 00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:15.119 JS, or they might be using something lower level like a s JS, 470 00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:24.800 or they might be using a client site framework like Angular. Where does affect 471 00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:30.159 fit into this ecosystem? Is it like an alternative to one of these? 472 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:36.440 Is it something that you would use in conjunction with one of these? How 473 00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:43.159 does it play into the JavaScript framework ecosystem? It sort of depends. I've 474 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:50.599 used the term framework, I should it probably use the term composer framework because 475 00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:54.960 it's rather a huge tool box where you can you can choose what you use. 476 00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:00.480 You don't have to use it all. I don't know of any application 477 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:07.039 that needs the the entirety of effect. I know a lot of people that 478 00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:15.280 use it in conjunction with those full stack frameworks that you referenced. I know 479 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:22.079 some other people, especially in the back end, who ended up with almost 480 00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:29.679 an effect only solution. That means effect to the very main, your main 481 00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:35.639 function is an effect. To reach that point at the moment, I believe 482 00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:40.639 it's only possible in a back end scenario. I wouldn't. I would never 483 00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:46.920 attempt to do it on a front end. I'll buy there are people developing 484 00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:54.000 rendering stacks on top of Effect. There's a guy called Tyler Stemberger that's developing 485 00:45:54.079 --> 00:46:02.719 a project called type which uses techt andlay leader roles, and it's basically a 486 00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:09.199 full rendering staff based on Effect, which is type safe with that context proparation 487 00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:13.679 in a type safe way. It's a really interesting project, but it's very 488 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:16.400 often and very experimental. I would not I would not use any anything like 489 00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:22.239 that for any production use case at the moment, at least, so I 490 00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:24.920 would say it depends what you do. If you are in the back end, 491 00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:30.840 it is very possible that you might be able to just use effect because 492 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:37.159 we have HTTP servers. We have huh, so it's a replacement too for 493 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:40.199 Express. So the next time we have HTTP servers, so you could use 494 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:47.400 it as a replacement to Express, but a replacement that does even even more. 495 00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:51.480 For example, if you're developing an h T t P a p I, 496 00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:57.639 you might want to generate an open AI open ah I specification. We 497 00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:02.840 do that by default. So if you write a web server in using effected 498 00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:07.400 CDP, you're gonna get for free a test client, you're gonna get for 499 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:12.079 free, arbitraries for your testing, you're gonna get for free, and open 500 00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:17.199 API specification from which you can generate clients in every language. You get a 501 00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:23.360 real type safe client that you can use to call your server from type script. 502 00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:32.440 So you get more and the performance of it. It's it was an 503 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:42.039 interesting journey because everybody expected the native HTTP server of Effect to be slower than 504 00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:49.360 the alternatives. We are actually beating Express by a lot, and we are 505 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:55.719 closer to fastify a little bit slower than falstified, but not not too far 506 00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:02.519 off with a with the fish set of an effect first of an effect native 507 00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:08.960 solution. So again everything is open teometry compliant. You have type errors across 508 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.079 the board, even across the network, because we can serialize both responses and 509 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:21.679 and errors just they're just objects, so you can serialize them in the same 510 00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:28.480 way. We have our own internal replacement of ZOD which is called effect Schema, 511 00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:32.800 which is bidirectional, can do both encoding and decoding. It is really 512 00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:39.079 a solution that, as you said at the very beginning, it's very broad 513 00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:44.199 in scope, and I would almost think of it as an MPM two point 514 00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.079 zero. You don't know, you don't have to know everything to use it. 515 00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:51.320 You can just start with a few modules, but then you have HTTP 516 00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:55.119 servers and so on and so forth. The next level thing that we are 517 00:48:55.239 --> 00:49:00.360 developing now is clustering. You're gonna be able what you are, what you're 518 00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:06.000 able to do with for example, ACTA in ACORPECO in the JDM, or 519 00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.480 erline elis here, and so on and so forth. Clusterize a number of 520 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:17.719 instances in JavaScript and do message passing style between them, which is pretty amazing 521 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:23.679 that you can even get to that point in JavaScript and that's already in Alphine. 522 00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:29.639 In effect, it's called effect cluster, so it is very broad. 523 00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:36.119 It can replace some of the pre existing solutions, and it can compound some 524 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:43.239 other solutions, for example very I have seen very pleasant code bases that use 525 00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:49.960 remix and Effect. I've seen some prototypes of Effect together with React server components, 526 00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:55.960 and it also plays fairly well. So both what you said, both 527 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:02.840 compounds and replace. So a question about that. As you said, one 528 00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:14.519 of the primary motivations for ditching the JVM in favor of Node was the fact 529 00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:21.760 that you could leverage the knowledge and capabilities of your existing front and developers that 530 00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:28.119 they could transition easily from being front end to being full stack and do the 531 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:37.639 BFF stuff. Then my question is if I take a typescript developer that's familiar 532 00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:40.119 let's say, you know, with Typescript obviously, but also let's say would 533 00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:47.239 React or something like that or maybe SVELT, and I bring them on board 534 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:55.719 to a project that uses Effect, what's the onboarding uh challenge? Like, 535 00:50:55.880 --> 00:51:00.039 I mean, will it when they look at the code, will they recognize 536 00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:06.079 that code as being typescript or will it be you know, two different so 537 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.840 that in effect, it's like I might as well have been using the JVM 538 00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:17.559 because it's going to be Greek to them. That's a great question. Surprisingly, 539 00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:24.159 just bick. People have a brain which is already wired in thinking in 540 00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:31.199 terms of components. I believe that thanks to the developments in react, where 541 00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:39.840 reacty is really widely used. Why, because it's simplified UI development and allowed 542 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:45.360 you to think in terms of composable UI components. When you think about the 543 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:51.119 effect, you think in terms of composable back end components or composable business logic 544 00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:55.119 components. So the brain doesn't have to do a huge suite, a huge 545 00:51:55.159 --> 00:52:05.800 switch. And the second element that makes the adoption path easier is that job 546 00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:10.840 stript has a syncle wave. Like you mentioned that that before we were living 547 00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:15.679 in an era where a sincle wave did not exist. Promises did not exist. 548 00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:22.719 For I mean, I was, I was writing callbacks and they're not 549 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:28.519 really they're not really nice, and you get this this meme of callback hell 550 00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:32.000 or or promise hell and so on and so forth. A sinca way makes 551 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:40.519 that easy. Why it brings back imperativeness to an otherwise declarative model, which 552 00:52:40.599 --> 00:52:49.400 is promised dot them or CPS continuation passing style, which is got renamed to 553 00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:55.360 callbacks in in in JavaScript Land, but the original name is really continuation passing 554 00:52:55.400 --> 00:53:01.320 style because you passed down a way of continuing your program. A sinkle weight 555 00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:07.559 makes that easy. Now you might ask is a syncle weight available for effect? 556 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.440 I would say no, So why have you even set a synca weight 557 00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:15.519 in the first place If you can't use a synca weight. Well, there's 558 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:19.639 another feature in jawstrip which is lesser known than a synca weight, which are 559 00:53:19.719 --> 00:53:25.920 generators. So you can mentally swalk a sink with function star and a weight 560 00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:30.800 with guild star, and your whole mental model works. You can use effect 561 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:36.519 in the same way as you use a synca weight, just by using generators. 562 00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:40.000 So if a newcomer reads the pod, they're going to be able to 563 00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:45.920 understand it. They might not be able to jump in and write it. 564 00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:50.440 But just as if they are experiencing REALT, they'll probably not be able to 565 00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:54.519 adopt view in half an hour. Might take them slightly more than half an 566 00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:59.159 hour to say, oh, okay, this library works in this specific way, 567 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:02.039 and so on and so. But they cross the concept. They can 568 00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:07.199 read the library code from the very beginning again. I'm not a front end 569 00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:12.079 developer, but I've seen code basis that use the realcity code basis that use 570 00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:15.679 view code basis that use Angular. I can read the code, I can 571 00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:20.400 reason about the code without knowing the details of it. Pretty much the same 572 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:25.719 experience you get with Effect and then takes i would say, a few hours 573 00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:34.039 to be able to use Effect productively and probably a few decades to learn the 574 00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:38.800 whole thing. And you don't have to again. It's like wanting to learn 575 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:45.320 javastrip by having to learn every single module on NPM might be a bit too 576 00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:52.400 much, but the learning curve is very, very progressive, and it is 577 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:58.239 very linear. The only non linear part is the first few hours. The 578 00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:02.599 first few hours you're going to be in a shot and you're gonna tape yourself 579 00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:07.920 for the decisions you've taken. But then that that stops. That stops very 580 00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:16.480 quickly. And the what what I've seen is is a trend where people that 581 00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:24.079 start us effect that was a fun and react here know that drugs. People 582 00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:35.039 that started doing the effecting there usually don't come back. I've never seen anyone 583 00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:44.920 removing Effect from the code base. That's a very interesting element because there's a 584 00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:51.679 lot of I mean, I've never seen a stable code in general. People 585 00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:55.840 swap libraries constantly, they rewrite and so on and so forth. If they 586 00:55:55.880 --> 00:56:01.960 started integrating effect, effect is there and most likely took over their whole application. 587 00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:07.079 And that person or that team will tell you that they can no longer 588 00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:13.719 write playing JavaScript or playing typescript without that. It's the same thing when you 589 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:20.760 learn typescript, you can't anymore write JavaScript. I wrote jawastript forageous. I 590 00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:28.519 would prefer to change jobs then write JavaScript without typescript. Again, like if 591 00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:31.199 you want to tell me you have to beat mine, if you want to 592 00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:37.000 stay employee, you have to write JavaScript. I would probably become I don't 593 00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:44.840 know, it's something or or a different I would not. I would Funnily 594 00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:52.880 enough, where I at size sense there's this piece of core legacy code that's 595 00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:00.639 unfortunately very much still in JavaScript, and people are very touching it. Ah, 596 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:07.440 it scares you to touch it, isn't it. Yeah, you found 597 00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:13.679 no if you're changing something you don't know if you're bringing anything else. Is 598 00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:20.519 a very good step forward in the direction of giving you confidence in maintaining the 599 00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:30.039 code base. It was effect you could quite literally refactor thousands and thousands of 600 00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:36.559 lines of code and be sure that if it comprises words. Yeah. One 601 00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:43.039 of the challenges though with typescript uh, and I think both THEO and the 602 00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:46.239 Primagenes have spoken about it, is that there are like two levels of using 603 00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:54.079 typescript. There's like the app developer level and there's the library level. Like 604 00:57:54.559 --> 00:58:00.400 you can, you don't need to dive too deep in to typescript and generic 605 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:05.360 types and stuff like that in most cases if you're just working at the application 606 00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:13.079 level. But if you really want to make library code as type safe as 607 00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:17.039 possible, then it can become a challenge. And I'm sure that you have 608 00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:22.000 spent a lot of hours with the fact thinking about what would be the best 609 00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:31.480 type signature for particular APIs. And so my question in this context is where 610 00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:38.679 where does effect fall in that spectrum? Like is it is? How challenging 611 00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:45.280 is the typing when I'm writing code in effect, especially given that it's kind 612 00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:50.559 of like type safety insure correctness, so kind of like you like, as 613 00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:54.199 you said, kind of like you would get in languages like ELM. Well, 614 00:58:54.480 --> 00:59:01.119 that is again a great question and a a great point which is arguable. 615 00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:12.199 I think I agree more with the sentiment that Matt Pocock has brought out, 616 00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:19.039 which is, yes, both the two different types strips exists library level 617 00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:24.480 and up level, but in up level you have that lead directory where you 618 00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:29.960 have the mix and match, where you do have to write a little bit 619 00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:38.440 of library level code in the app Effect. The usage of Effect surprisingly requires 620 00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:44.519 almost no manual type. Like when you write a function using a Synca weight, 621 00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:51.159 you don't have to annotate the promise return type manually. The same thing 622 00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:54.639 is with Effect, with the difference that you're going to get inference for the 623 00:59:54.800 --> 01:00:01.519 errors and inference for the dependencies. Oh very cool. So basically you've done 624 01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:06.440 most of the heavy lifting, and when I use the FACT, I just 625 01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:10.599 get most of the benefits out. Just buy out straightforward. In fraence, 626 01:00:12.199 --> 01:00:19.960 I think I wrote thousands of lines of effect code in examples and and so 627 01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:25.639 forth without ever specifying a type manually. Of course, sometimes you might want 628 01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:30.679 to specify a type manually, but the point is you don't have to, 629 01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:36.800 which is the which is me how it should be. Even with promises, 630 01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:39.920 you can annotate a return type if you want to be sure that this is 631 01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:45.960 the actual return type, and sometimes you have to do that for performance reasons, 632 01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:52.000 like especially if you have functions that are reused in a lot of places 633 01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:58.960 in your code, if you use inference on those functions, then the LSP 634 01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.239 is going to have perform one's issues. But this has nothing to do with 635 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:07.280 effect. This is very very general type strip points. The same applies with 636 01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:14.880 the fact So sometimes you have to write or work. Sometimes you want to 637 01:01:14.920 --> 01:01:19.119 write types, but usually you don't. Usually you don't have to. And 638 01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:24.639 to me, this sort of goes back to the point of having the compiler 639 01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:30.280 as a friend that tells you what's going on, versus the compiler as a 640 01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:37.639 you know, as a math teacher that grades your your correctness. I feel 641 01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:43.039 more in the in the space of the compiler as a friend that helps you 642 01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:46.840 discover what your program is doing. When I write a fact code, I 643 01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:52.920 then look at the type signature, which is completely infir and I realize from 644 01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:58.360 that, oh, i've this is what I've done. This is the error 645 01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:06.079 cases that my program may m may issue when when main counter, when when 646 01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:09.760 it's executed. And then if I handle one of those, the type system 647 01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:15.559 will tell me that that error is no longer present all by inference, not 648 01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:22.960 not by specifying the types, so by no meaning it's a type heavy element. 649 01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:29.119 We have also, I mentioned briefly before, schema effects schema, which 650 01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:35.400 is a similar approach to zo I, U, O, T S and 651 01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:42.360 so on and so forth. That's really where where a user starts with defining 652 01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:49.079 the types in their system. Those are more domain level types. You're you're 653 01:02:49.239 --> 01:02:53.840 modeling your user base. If you are doing a two do NBC, you're 654 01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:58.880 going to have a two doo type. Those are the types, the concrete 655 01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:02.280 types that that you use. There's there's almost never a generic in those, 656 01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:08.559 as you pointed out rightfully. So and a very effect based code base would 657 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:15.639 use schema to define the data model of their application and would infer the hell 658 01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:22.960 out of everything else in my the Way Highway would use it. Of course, 659 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:28.639 there are users who write explicit types for everything. I don't. I 660 01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:32.599 don't agree with that with that way. It's like it. I've seen the 661 01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:38.039 Clint configured tss slint configured to require that, and I, like you, 662 01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:45.400 I dislike it. I prefer as much type in for ince as possible whenever 663 01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:50.519 I need to explicitly specify the type of a return type of a function, 664 01:03:51.320 --> 01:03:57.480 so it almost feels like a failure. Yes, and we've done a lot 665 01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:01.800 of works so that you don't have all Right. Well, I'm wondering if 666 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:05.599 there's more to get into before we do picks, because we're kind of getting 667 01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:12.320 to that amount of time. I guess my question is, Michael, because 668 01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:21.360 you've talked about moving off the JVM to something like like Effect or The other 669 01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:28.320 one is just if I started a new project today, what are the best 670 01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:30.760 ways to kind of roll into this and make it work how I want. 671 01:04:32.039 --> 01:04:39.280 Well, we have our website, which is incredibly easy to remember because the 672 01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:44.079 website of Effect is called the fat Top website. And we have an amazing 673 01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:51.000 discord community which is by now more than three thousand people and those are not 674 01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:57.760 just numbers. They constantly write and help each other, and the teammates also 675 01:04:58.599 --> 01:05:06.000 help. So definitely join the sport and definitely try out tryout Effect. If 676 01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:14.360 there is another question that I would like to address, it came from twits 677 01:05:14.440 --> 01:05:18.719 and other podcasts, and I think we had a small exchange we've done at 678 01:05:18.760 --> 01:05:27.760 some point in time, and it is about the company behind Effect. There 679 01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:32.679 is a company now which is called Effectful Technologies, and we've raised the c 680 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:40.599 money last year, and some people were surprised, and they even said that, 681 01:05:41.199 --> 01:05:45.559 you know, monetizing something like Effect is crazy. I agree, monetizing 682 01:05:45.639 --> 01:05:50.039 something like Effect is absolutely crazy. That's not the plan. The plan is 683 01:05:50.079 --> 01:05:59.239 to develop services and bring composibility to higher levels of infrastructure where it's not going 684 01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:04.199 to be at anymore. They're really gonna be plain and simple commercial services. 685 01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:10.880 Effect these open source. We always remain open source. The Effect organization is 686 01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:16.280 not even owned by by the company. It's owned by the contributors. It 687 01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:24.480 hasn't shifted in in ownership when we when we founded company, this was a 688 01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:30.239 was a question I intended to answer on a on a podcast, but I 689 01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:38.480 was like other people got that question asked and like, maybe I should answered 690 01:06:38.599 --> 01:06:43.960 that specific question here. And I'm probably the only one who knows the the 691 01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:47.320 plan. But really be sure, if you use Effect, it's an open 692 01:06:47.400 --> 01:06:56.119 source library, it's community first, and it has survived five years without a 693 01:06:56.280 --> 01:07:00.760 company behind and without VC money behind. So even if the company burns, 694 01:07:00.559 --> 01:07:06.519 which is highly probable given that BC backed companies are high risk, high reward, 695 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:12.719 most of them fails, so realistically we will also fail. I hope 696 01:07:12.760 --> 01:07:17.199 not, of course, but that's the that's the default outcome effect. We'll 697 01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:24.159 stay alive, will be preserved the way it was preserved before, without without 698 01:07:24.199 --> 01:07:30.840 any any trouble or change of license or or or any any of the you 699 01:07:30.920 --> 01:07:35.320 know, weirdness of mixing open source with commercial activities. There was one one 700 01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:40.639 other point I wanted to cover. That's that's good to hear. It reminds 701 01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:45.280 me a little bit of like next Jas and Versail, right, you know, 702 01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:48.960 it's it's next Jas completely open source, you know, community run blah 703 01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:51.760 blah blah. Yeah, a lot of the people work for Versail that work 704 01:07:51.840 --> 01:07:56.119 on it, but at the end of the day, when you want to 705 01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:59.920 deploy your next JS app, versaill is your happy place kind of thing, 706 01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.760 right, They specifically go after the things that you're going to want. It 707 01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:10.000 seems to have become a fairly popular model of having an open source project and 708 01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:14.599 alongside it a commercial company. So obviously Versaill is kind of like the poster 709 01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:19.840 child, but also the Astro project is doing something similar, and even a 710 01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:27.279 million JS is a new upstart project are I think are hy Combinator funded, 711 01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:30.319 and there are others as well, So it will be interesting to see if 712 01:08:30.399 --> 01:08:35.760 this model how successful this model of an open source project which is by definition 713 01:08:35.880 --> 01:08:41.760 open source and will remain open source regardless of anything else, but that alongside 714 01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:47.000 to it, there's a company that's kind of supporting that project and looking to 715 01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:55.840 make revenue in some sort of a way in adjacent to that project. So 716 01:08:56.039 --> 01:09:00.279 it will be interesting to see how successful this model is over time. I 717 01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:09.039 think that discussing that would definitely require probably a different episode or or rock very 718 01:09:09.159 --> 01:09:14.119 long conversation. I'm not sure the model is gonna be successful at all. 719 01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:19.720 If anything, I don't believe in that in that model in general, you 720 01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:26.159 might say, but if you've done the same, yes, I believe Versaill 721 01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:31.560 with next Years is a very peculiar example of a model that can work because 722 01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:35.640 Versaill is the best best place to deploy any front them, not only if 723 01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:42.479 you use next right. That's the that's the key differentiation. And I'm gonna 724 01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:46.119 stop here otherwise than revealing too much of the road where we are pointing, 725 01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:51.199 but it's gonna I appreciate Versaill a lot as a as a company, and 726 01:09:51.520 --> 01:09:57.000 I take a lot of inspiration from it. So I just have one more 727 01:09:57.119 --> 01:10:02.000 quick question. You mentioned that you have a website that affects dot website. 728 01:10:02.640 --> 01:10:08.000 And we mentioned that there was a conference and you can find the talks I 729 01:10:08.079 --> 01:10:12.960 think on YouTube. Yes. Do you also have a discord channel where people 730 01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:17.279 can ask questions stuff like that? We absolutely have a discord community. It's 731 01:10:17.479 --> 01:10:24.239 an amazing place where people help each other. There's there's almost three thousand there's 732 01:10:24.279 --> 01:10:31.680 actually more than three thousand users on it that are constantly writing themselves, helping 733 01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:36.079 themselves and so on and so forth. All of our development happens on this 734 01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:42.119 word, so that that is the central That the central place where I spend 735 01:10:42.199 --> 01:10:45.960 most of my day. So also if you want to chat with me either 736 01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:55.479 Twitter or the new name X, always feel strange only X hope even it's 737 01:10:55.520 --> 01:11:02.359 not listening to us the chance if I ask again, I actually hope. 738 01:11:02.399 --> 01:11:05.680 Well, we should all hope that he does, because if he tweets it 739 01:11:05.840 --> 01:11:10.960 then or exit it or whatever it's called these days, posts it, then 740 01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:20.359 the podcast and effect will explode. He I'm totally fine with Elon asked actually 741 01:11:20.439 --> 01:11:24.800 coming out and going these guys are idiots, right, because we would still 742 01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:31.119 get that same effect. So PU non intended. I wasn't thinking about it 743 01:11:31.159 --> 01:11:34.960 anyway. Let's go ahead and do our picks and then start wrapping up. 744 01:11:36.399 --> 01:11:42.319 Let's start with aj Aj, what are your picks? Well, I became 745 01:11:43.079 --> 01:11:54.239 a motorcyclist. I have a motorcycle now, and uh I would recommend to 746 01:11:54.319 --> 01:12:00.279 anybody the the MSF Basic Rider Course, if anybody's in the United States least, 747 01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:06.680 if you're interested in becoming one of the organ donors, then then the 748 01:12:06.760 --> 01:12:13.319 best way to prevent actually having to to uh donate your organs would be to 749 01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:18.079 take that course. It already save my bacon when a semi cut in front 750 01:12:18.119 --> 01:12:23.800 of me, and since I'd already low sided the bike during the practice course 751 01:12:23.880 --> 01:12:27.760 and was already familiar with why not to panic by grabbing the front brake, 752 01:12:29.079 --> 01:12:32.640 I panicked instead by swerving, straightening the bike and then applying the brake and 753 01:12:32.760 --> 01:12:38.079 that got me safely onto the shoulder of the road rather than under the semi. 754 01:12:38.319 --> 01:12:42.399 So it's good. Ay, J. Do you know what the other 755 01:12:42.600 --> 01:12:46.640 word for motorcycles is that traffic cops use along the lines of what you were 756 01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:51.520 just saying, no donor cycle, donorcycle? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 757 01:12:51.640 --> 01:12:58.359 So anyway, it what was it? What was the other thing? I 758 01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:01.000 was going to mention, there's gonna be there something else I think related to 759 01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:03.560 that. Give me just a second. My brain's a little slower today because 760 01:13:03.600 --> 01:13:09.800 of the cold. Oh. One of the pieces of protection that people often 761 01:13:11.239 --> 01:13:14.560 don't think about, or at least it wasn't one of the things I first 762 01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:15.920 thought about. I knew to get the helmet and the pants and the jacket 763 01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:23.840 and the gloves, but the hearing protection. There's a brand of hearing protection 764 01:13:24.039 --> 01:13:30.520 called Alpine Moto Safe. And the biggest problem is not the muffler or the 765 01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:34.600 engine noise. The biggest problem is the wind noise. And these ear plugs 766 01:13:34.720 --> 01:13:39.199 are designed in such a way that's kind of interesting. They have a little 767 01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:44.079 stem that comes out of them, and much like you've got the little hair 768 01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:48.600 in your ear that transmits the sound, the stem actually helps transmit sound that 769 01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:53.520 is in the vocal range and I guess other ranges that you need to hear. 770 01:13:54.199 --> 01:13:57.359 So when you put the ear plugs in and someone speaking to you, 771 01:13:57.560 --> 01:14:00.119 it still sounds weird when you're speaking to someone else, but when someone's speaking 772 01:14:00.159 --> 01:14:06.680 to you, you can actually hear pretty darn well. And they're very effective 773 01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:12.039 at blocking out the wind noise. So although they have a lower dB rating 774 01:14:12.239 --> 01:14:15.560 like a lot of the cheap o foam ones are rated at something like thirty 775 01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:20.960 three dB and these are only rated at twenty. But part of that, 776 01:14:21.039 --> 01:14:27.600 I think is because of they're not they're very effective at reducing wind noise, 777 01:14:27.640 --> 01:14:30.600 but they're not effective at reducing all noise because they're designed to actually let some 778 01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:35.439 sound pass through. So I think that they are adequate protection. They're very 779 01:14:35.560 --> 01:14:44.199 and they're very comfortable to wear. So anyway, Yeah, if you want 780 01:14:44.239 --> 01:14:47.720 to have really really long discussions with your wife over a period of weeks or 781 01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:54.680 months or possibly even years, get in a motorcycling. It's a sense of 782 01:14:54.720 --> 01:15:00.800 freedom that is amazing, absolutely amazing. That's that's my picks for the day. 783 01:15:02.399 --> 01:15:09.920 Awesome, Dan, what are your picks? I don't have a whole 784 01:15:09.960 --> 01:15:13.479 lot in terms of picks for today. I you know, I do have 785 01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:20.319 one. So obviously, there's the ongoing conflict in the Middle East, both 786 01:15:20.439 --> 01:15:27.239 in Gaza and between Israel and Lebanon, and I know that it has made 787 01:15:27.279 --> 01:15:32.760 a lot of people like interested in or have opinions on like the origins of 788 01:15:32.840 --> 01:15:38.600 this conflict and you know who's at fault and how things came to be and 789 01:15:38.680 --> 01:15:46.439 stuff like that. I want to highlight a documentary that came out a long 790 01:15:46.520 --> 01:15:50.000 time ago, like in the eighties. As I recall, it's called a 791 01:15:50.199 --> 01:15:56.880 Pillar of Fire. It's an is it's an Israeli documentary, so obviously it 792 01:15:57.079 --> 01:16:02.279 represents the the Israeli view on things, but they did try very hard to 793 01:16:02.439 --> 01:16:06.600 also to be first of all fact base and also present a lot of the 794 01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:15.159 Palestinian side or the Arab side as well. It's it's talks about the origins 795 01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:20.399 of Zionism going back to the eighteen fifties and all the way to the founding 796 01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:26.199 of the State of Israel, and covering all that period in between. We're 797 01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:31.600 talking about over one hundred period of over one hundred years, and it, 798 01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:34.760 like I said, it's from the eighties. So on the one hand, 799 01:16:34.840 --> 01:16:39.600 it's you might say that it's a bit dated, but it also means that 800 01:16:39.720 --> 01:16:44.920 a lot of people that were involved in that process were still alive back then 801 01:16:45.079 --> 01:16:49.560 to be interviewed, and and that documentary includes a lot of such interviews and 802 01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:58.239 a lot of the of amazing original footage that was shot like more or less 803 01:16:58.279 --> 01:17:04.800 when they invented the cameras. Uh. And it's it's it's a great documentary. 804 01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:11.319 Series. You can find episodes of it with in English on YouTube. 805 01:17:11.479 --> 01:17:15.880 I'll i'll link to some of the episodes that are actually available on YouTube. 806 01:17:15.279 --> 01:17:20.279 So if this topic is interesting to you, I highly recommend this, uh 807 01:17:20.520 --> 01:17:28.319 this series, And that's my pick for today. By the way, uh, 808 01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:31.760 Ken, do you know where the where the phrase pillar fire comes from? 809 01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:36.560 Oh? Heck, yeah, I know it, So you can also 810 01:17:38.159 --> 01:17:42.319 so you can also understand why it's been used in this context, like, 811 01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:46.960 uh, uh yeah, yep, that's something that I'm interested in. So 812 01:17:47.199 --> 01:17:50.399 i'll i'll have to go check those out, Steve, what are your picks? 813 01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:55.640 Uh? Before my pre planned one, I have a couple of picks 814 01:17:55.680 --> 01:18:02.640 that came up inspired by our initial conversations here. One comes from one of 815 01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:10.199 my favorite sources of puns and jokes is called the pun Bible. It's pretty 816 01:18:10.239 --> 01:18:13.399 short. It says it's a conversation between a student and teacher, and it 817 01:18:13.479 --> 01:18:17.079 says, student, thirty two degrees fahrenheit is equal to zero degrees celsius. 818 01:18:17.199 --> 01:18:19.319 Right, future says yes. In other words, so I said so. 819 01:18:19.399 --> 01:18:24.680 In other words, zero degrees celsius post zero degree celsius equal sixty four degrees 820 01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:34.560 fahrenheit. Thank you now, in honor of aj and the absolute torture that 821 01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:40.520 he's been going through with his cold over the past week. One of my 822 01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:45.439 favorite sources of humor is the Babylon b They're so good, so good, 823 01:18:45.760 --> 01:18:48.239 Oh I love to be And anyway, one series of posts that they are 824 01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:54.560 always doing over the years about how men will suffer from a cold and as 825 01:18:54.640 --> 01:19:00.600 compared to the women. And this particular post that I looked up was from 826 01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:04.840 last year and it says it's titled this is the worst pain any human has 827 01:19:04.880 --> 01:19:09.119 ever felt? Man with Flutell's wife who has pushed three children out of body. 828 01:19:10.840 --> 01:19:14.000 And so it starts out, I'll give you the first couple of paragraphs. 829 01:19:14.159 --> 01:19:18.479 Local man Aj O'Neill became better ridden Tuesday after a flu virus brutally assaulted 830 01:19:18.520 --> 01:19:21.159 his body with a sore throat, coughing, some body aches, and even 831 01:19:21.199 --> 01:19:25.760 a mild fever. This is the worst pain any human has ever felt, 832 01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:28.640 he told his wife, Sally, who previously pushed three whole children out of 833 01:19:28.680 --> 01:19:30.960 her body. The content reportedly led to a brief spat in which is the 834 01:19:31.000 --> 01:19:35.159 suffering man edge precariously towards death door. Anyway, it goes on from there 835 01:19:35.319 --> 01:19:42.359 so I'll put the link in the notes hopefully, but it's it's classic Babylon 836 01:19:42.479 --> 01:19:45.239 d It kind of is not Sally by the way. By the way, 837 01:19:45.319 --> 01:19:48.840 it kind of reminds me of this thing that said that if you are a 838 01:19:48.920 --> 01:19:54.199 man and you want to experience, you know, like how childbirth feels like, 839 01:19:54.359 --> 01:19:57.680 then what you should do is, first of all, grab your lower 840 01:19:57.760 --> 01:20:00.720 lip, yes, then and then pull it over your head. Yes. 841 01:20:03.439 --> 01:20:08.399 Back before Bill Cosby went nuts, he has a classic routine called Himself that 842 01:20:08.520 --> 01:20:12.079 was an HBO special for eighty five and there's a section in there where he's 843 01:20:12.119 --> 01:20:16.520 talking about his wife's giving birth to the childbirth hysterical and he in that sketch 844 01:20:16.560 --> 01:20:20.560 he brings up that quote and then when he's talking about his wife giving birth, 845 01:20:20.760 --> 01:20:24.880 he talks about how she stood up in the stirrups and grabbed his lower 846 01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:30.039 lip and started to pull it up over his head. So that's a great 847 01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:35.800 one. And finally the dad jokes of the week. So one day I 848 01:20:35.960 --> 01:20:40.840 went I changed the light bulb across the road and I walked into a bar, 849 01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:45.439 and that's when I realized my whole life was a joke. Yeah, 850 01:20:47.279 --> 01:20:57.600 question, what dating app do cannibals use it's called tender. Right. So 851 01:20:57.680 --> 01:21:00.960 the other day, speaking of a biblical reference, I found thirty dollars in 852 01:21:01.039 --> 01:21:03.840 the parking lot, and I thought to myself, what would Jesus do? 853 01:21:04.640 --> 01:21:11.079 So I turned it into wine. That's a good one. Those are my 854 01:21:11.239 --> 01:21:15.079 picks for the week, all right. I'll jump in with a few picks. 855 01:21:15.159 --> 01:21:19.319 I usually do a board game or a card game. To be honest, 856 01:21:19.359 --> 01:21:23.800 I've kind of been heads down on a bunch of other stuff. So 857 01:21:24.159 --> 01:21:27.119 let me just think for a second on which one I want to pick. 858 01:21:28.920 --> 01:21:33.039 I'm going to go a little bit different direction. So my eighteen year old 859 01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:41.279 really likes retro games video games, especially video game consoles. So he actually 860 01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:46.520 walked like six or seven miles down to the retro game store in American Fork 861 01:21:47.399 --> 01:21:53.560 and bought himself a Wii. And so we've been playing we Sports around here 862 01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:57.520 lately. And yeah, we Sports Resort, well we Sports are sort of 863 01:21:57.560 --> 01:22:00.159 boring. We Sports Resort is a little better. I don't think I've done 864 01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:03.039 the Wee Sports Resort, but I will tell you that it's been fun, 865 01:22:03.359 --> 01:22:08.640 you know, doing the bowling and astball anyway, So I'm gonna pick that. 866 01:22:08.680 --> 01:22:12.119 I'm gonna pick a video game instead of a board game today. A 867 01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:15.000 few other things that I'm gonna throw out, so one of them is and 868 01:22:15.159 --> 01:22:21.800 this is going way off the tech train or toys train. But about a 869 01:22:21.920 --> 01:22:25.680 year or so ago, I started, no, it's been more than that. 870 01:22:25.720 --> 01:22:29.239 It's been a few years. I started having issues where if I would 871 01:22:29.279 --> 01:22:35.640 eat wheat products of any kind, I'd get sick. And so I was 872 01:22:35.680 --> 01:22:41.159 talking to my new stepdad my mom got remarried a couple months ago, and 873 01:22:41.279 --> 01:22:44.079 he was like, well, if you tried. He told me to try 874 01:22:44.119 --> 01:22:45.279 two different things. I haven't tried one of them. I haven't tried ancient 875 01:22:45.359 --> 01:22:49.720 grains, but I He's like, if you tried sourdough. And I was 876 01:22:49.800 --> 01:22:55.520 like no, And so I kept meaning to try it, but I didn't 877 01:22:55.520 --> 01:22:58.560 know anything about it. And then I was chatting with a friend of mine 878 01:22:58.600 --> 01:23:02.079 and she brought up that she bakes a loaf of bread every few days and 879 01:23:02.359 --> 01:23:05.000 it's sourdough. She has a sour dough starter that lives in her fridge, 880 01:23:05.880 --> 01:23:10.439 and so she gave me some of that and I've been doing sourdough ever since, 881 01:23:10.760 --> 01:23:15.760 and I'll tell you what, It's made a huge difference because I used 882 01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:20.720 to have just kind of lingering stomach pain over days just because I would get 883 01:23:21.479 --> 01:23:27.960 whatever wheat product, you know. And anyway, since I started eating the 884 01:23:28.039 --> 01:23:31.920 sour dough about a month ago, that pain's gone away and I haven't had 885 01:23:31.920 --> 01:23:35.399 any issues. And it's also nice because I have real bread to make like 886 01:23:35.479 --> 01:23:40.640 sandwiches and stuff with. So I'm going to pick sourdough now. A couple 887 01:23:40.720 --> 01:23:44.880 of things I'm going to put out there. So we already had a KitchenAid 888 01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:51.880 mixer, and there's a there's a website this lady does. She talks all 889 01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:57.159 about sourdough. So I'll put links to her Instagram because she's got a series 890 01:23:57.239 --> 01:23:59.720 of Instagram stories that you can watch to kind of walk you through the whole 891 01:23:59.720 --> 01:24:04.680 process. She's also got a website where she makes that work. And I've 892 01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:12.399 got Apple Assistant on my computer trying to pick up on what I'm saying, 893 01:24:12.399 --> 01:24:20.000 which anyway, so so yeah, so I'm gonna shout that out. One 894 01:24:20.039 --> 01:24:26.079 of the things that you need is also a it's a Dutch oven, and 895 01:24:26.319 --> 01:24:32.159 I don't know outside the US really have. It's a cast iron pot and 896 01:24:32.800 --> 01:24:39.600 the ones that you want stup in your oven are they're enameled, right, 897 01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:42.319 so they've they've got the polish on them, right. They don't look like 898 01:24:42.399 --> 01:24:45.720 cast iron pots you pick them up, they feel like cast iron pots. 899 01:24:45.079 --> 01:24:48.439 But anyway, so I've been, like I said, I've been baking my 900 01:24:48.479 --> 01:24:56.119 own bread for the last month and it's amazing. So I'm trying to find 901 01:24:56.359 --> 01:25:02.279 the website where all this stuff is at. Oh, here we go. 902 01:25:02.960 --> 01:25:09.000 And she's been super helpful too as far as like just figuring out, Okay, 903 01:25:09.159 --> 01:25:14.800 this didn't turn out the way I wanted, so anyway, I'll put 904 01:25:14.840 --> 01:25:18.560 these links in here. But it's such good bread, and even when it 905 01:25:18.680 --> 01:25:25.399 doesn't come out looking just like this lady's bread, it was still oh so 906 01:25:25.600 --> 01:25:34.319 good anyway, so I'm dropping it in the comments. It's kind of a 907 01:25:34.479 --> 01:25:44.520 long Instagram deal, but that's her stories on on how to make the sourdough. 908 01:25:44.720 --> 01:25:50.720 And then I'll put this at simplesourdough bread dot com and that's where I 909 01:25:50.800 --> 01:25:55.399 get the other stuff. So yeah, so I'm I'm picking bread and stuff 910 01:25:55.479 --> 01:25:58.960 like that and then one last thing that I'm gonna pick, and this is 911 01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:02.880 just I'm just getting into this now. Most of this is focused on ruby 912 01:26:02.960 --> 01:26:05.439 on rails which is what I spend most of my time writing code in. 913 01:26:06.600 --> 01:26:13.319 There's a book called The Rails and Stimulus Codecs, and it basically walks you 914 01:26:13.399 --> 01:26:17.520 through writing an application in Ruby on Rails with the Stimulus front end and with 915 01:26:17.680 --> 01:26:26.600 Turbonative so that you can get quasi hybrid native apps out of your Ruby on 916 01:26:26.680 --> 01:26:30.159 Rails applications, and you can do it for other applications too, write because 917 01:26:30.159 --> 01:26:34.479 it basically just wraps around a web application and then it uses Strata to give 918 01:26:34.520 --> 01:26:43.279 you which is the Italian word for road, but it gives you that pathway 919 01:26:43.359 --> 01:26:48.359 to get native elements into your Turbonative app. And then Turbative just gives you 920 01:26:48.479 --> 01:26:55.960 the wrapper around your web application so you can have the mobile app. And 921 01:26:56.079 --> 01:27:00.680 yeah, so so far I've got the Turbinative stuff. I'm just getting into 922 01:27:00.760 --> 01:27:03.960 Strata now and then we'll be getting into the rest of the stuff with Stimulus 923 01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:10.199 and Turbo. Turbo's kind of like HTMX, but anyway, I'm really really 924 01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:15.399 digging it. So I'm gonna pick the Rails and Stimulus, Rails and hot 925 01:27:15.439 --> 01:27:24.600 Wire code X by Ayush Nuatia and Terminative. You should probably come on this 926 01:27:25.079 --> 01:27:28.840 podcast called JavaScript Jabber to talk about this stuff. Yeah, I should, 927 01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:30.920 I should, maybe I'll get I used to come on. He's one of 928 01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:38.800 our new panelists on Ruby Rogues. But yeah, and he's a former Native 929 01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:44.880 developer in Swift and Colin. So anyway, that's what I've been playing with 930 01:27:44.960 --> 01:27:51.239 lately. Michael, what are your picks? Oh? So I have a 931 01:27:51.399 --> 01:27:58.439 mixed but I have to double down what AJ said at the beginning. I 932 01:27:58.560 --> 01:28:06.439 am a biker and definitely do safety driving courses because your instincts playing in a 933 01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:11.960 in a weird way when you when you get scared, and you got to 934 01:28:12.039 --> 01:28:15.600 train them very well. I was lucky enough to get my first bike when 935 01:28:15.640 --> 01:28:21.640 I was six years old, so I kind of have sec second nature instincts 936 01:28:21.680 --> 01:28:29.680 by now. But it's definitely not not normal, and especially if you if 937 01:28:29.720 --> 01:28:35.319 you get into biking at a leader age, do a safety course, actions 938 01:28:35.319 --> 01:28:39.560 and everything else. What AJ said, it's it's good. I didn't know 939 01:28:39.640 --> 01:28:43.880 about the year. I think I'll try it out. Please send me a 940 01:28:44.039 --> 01:28:49.600 link, maybe offline. I'm curious, And so I have doubled down what 941 01:28:49.720 --> 01:28:56.640 Aj said and in a in a relatively similar fashion, but a different, 942 01:28:56.800 --> 01:29:01.840 completely different thing. I recently got into go karting. Mm fun do do 943 01:29:02.159 --> 01:29:09.479 do? Start to go karting? I purchased a Hazy card, which is 944 01:29:09.560 --> 01:29:14.880 a shifter card with six gears, and it's killing me. I go there 945 01:29:14.960 --> 01:29:17.399 on the weekend, I feel like I'm the best driver in the war. 946 01:29:17.560 --> 01:29:21.840 And of course the low west on the track and Monday, Monday, like 947 01:29:21.920 --> 01:29:28.800 today, I'm in pain my whole body due to the physical exercise. But 948 01:29:28.920 --> 01:29:33.399 it's a very good way to get out of your concert zone, out out 949 01:29:33.439 --> 01:29:39.439 in the open and have fun. So my teak is go karting. How 950 01:29:40.119 --> 01:29:44.880 how fast do these go cards go? Well, that depends do you want 951 01:29:44.920 --> 01:29:51.920 to know? In American terms or European terms terms? Last time I clocked 952 01:29:53.359 --> 01:29:57.520 like one hundred and thirty seven kilometers per hour on the track. Yeah. 953 01:29:57.640 --> 01:30:05.199 See, in America, go cart means children's toy or perhaps family recreational or 954 01:30:05.479 --> 01:30:11.199 not. That's true. I was gonna say, I go carting at a 955 01:30:11.239 --> 01:30:15.840 place hide here on the west side of Portland. And you know the cars 956 01:30:15.880 --> 01:30:18.800 that you can just go rent and drive around their track or you don't get 957 01:30:18.800 --> 01:30:23.520 it, like sixty miles an hour. And there's some there's some serious cart 958 01:30:23.560 --> 01:30:26.199 there's races. Are people with their own cares, you know, and they 959 01:30:27.079 --> 01:30:29.880 go really fast. I have never heard of a go cart that goes more 960 01:30:29.920 --> 01:30:31.800 than like twenty miles an hour. Oh no, the carting, Oh I've 961 01:30:32.920 --> 01:30:36.359 I have some neighbors that have some that. Oh yeah, they whip around 962 01:30:36.359 --> 01:30:40.720 the neighborhood faster than the cars go. Right awayrat, this isn't just around 963 01:30:40.760 --> 01:30:44.640 the neighborhood. One hundred and thirty seven miles or kilometers per hours, about 964 01:30:44.640 --> 01:30:47.680 eighty five five hours, so that that sucker is moving that a pretty good 965 01:30:47.680 --> 01:30:55.279 speed. It has six geas, so like it's it's serious force follower. 966 01:30:55.800 --> 01:30:59.439 Yeah, that's fast enough to take on the freeway here in the US and 967 01:31:00.039 --> 01:31:02.000 get a speeding ticket. Yes, you can get speeding people, not in 968 01:31:02.199 --> 01:31:06.399 Utah, but in other places and everywhere. Here's seventy miles an hour, 969 01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:11.680 seventy five miles an hour. That sweet. You get out of town and 970 01:31:11.760 --> 01:31:16.720 sadie. Because the trock is is not long. If you write long long 971 01:31:16.840 --> 01:31:21.800 shifts, it goes up to two hinds. But easily it's the closest thing 972 01:31:21.880 --> 01:31:26.680 to a Formula one. You can ride. Wow, if you serve on. 973 01:31:29.119 --> 01:31:31.359 I can't wait to tell my wife she's going to be so excited to 974 01:31:31.479 --> 01:31:39.760 hear about this. Yeah, typically because it costs a lot of money overall, 975 01:31:40.159 --> 01:31:45.199 but it's very fun. Yeah. The the go karts that I've seen 976 01:31:45.319 --> 01:31:47.720 here, they're typically not road legal. I mean, if you're if you're 977 01:31:47.760 --> 01:31:51.399 in your neighborhood or you know, you're not on the main road, right, 978 01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:56.279 I don't go out to the highway or whatever. Nobody cares. But 979 01:31:56.840 --> 01:32:00.359 yeah, I've seen some pretty serious of stuff. And then you get, 980 01:32:00.439 --> 01:32:03.399 Yeah, you get the off road vehicles net that you know, you go 981 01:32:03.520 --> 01:32:09.000 down to there's a there's some sand dune south of the lake here that people 982 01:32:09.119 --> 01:32:13.199 go out and do that. Or we also don't live terribly far from the 983 01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:17.159 uh Boto the salt salt flats where you could probably go do something really fast 984 01:32:17.199 --> 01:32:21.840 there. Just don't forget, just don't forget to wear a helmet. Don't 985 01:32:21.840 --> 01:32:25.399 forget to wear a helmet. That's the only thing you wear on a gogle 986 01:32:25.479 --> 01:32:29.800 cart. You don't have safety anything else. You just have a helmet and 987 01:32:29.960 --> 01:32:32.000 that's pretty much it. Yeah, and then it's that roll bars, right, 988 01:32:32.600 --> 01:32:36.439 so you like you just strap in and the roll bars are your safety 989 01:32:36.520 --> 01:32:44.039 net. Well, you don't have roll bars. Yeah, if you just 990 01:32:44.119 --> 01:32:45.439 don't wreck it. You just don't wreck it. That's your SA. Just 991 01:32:45.479 --> 01:32:51.199 don't cry. Yeah. When I when I first asked about how to drive 992 01:32:53.039 --> 01:32:56.680 a Google cart proficiently on a on a track, the truck manager, who 993 01:32:56.800 --> 01:33:01.279 used to be number four in the World Championship in the maximum category of carting 994 01:33:01.880 --> 01:33:05.920 look at me, and I was like, Mike, the green, just 995 01:33:05.960 --> 01:33:15.119 don't go there the weed. Yeah, there was there was his advice. 996 01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:17.159 Don't go in the grass. That don't go in the grass. Yes, 997 01:33:18.279 --> 01:33:24.560 that's the that's the advice on how to drive a go card. I really 998 01:33:24.640 --> 01:33:32.840 want to go now, yeah, go karting and CNA that I'm so in. 999 01:33:34.079 --> 01:33:36.399 All right, Well, let's go ahead and wrap this up. Thanks 1000 01:33:36.439 --> 01:33:40.800 for coming, Michael. If people want to connect with you online, We've 1001 01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:44.800 already said effect that website, But I'm guessing you're on Twitter and things like 1002 01:33:44.880 --> 01:33:48.720 that. Where where do people find you? Tweeter or Discord? Discord is 1003 01:33:48.880 --> 01:33:54.520 better. I usually spend more time on Discord than Tweeter because then I start 1004 01:33:54.600 --> 01:33:58.039 reading tweets, I get angry, close down on my laptop and so on 1005 01:33:58.119 --> 01:34:01.039 and so forth, and the whole cycle rest. But I'm more on on 1006 01:34:02.279 --> 01:34:08.239 on Discord, but also tweeter is very fine. The only trouble I guess 1007 01:34:08.319 --> 01:34:14.960 with contacting me on Twitter is recently I've got like people seems like they can't 1008 01:34:15.079 --> 01:34:17.840 send me or when they send me a DM, it gets hidden, so 1009 01:34:17.960 --> 01:34:21.800 I might not I might not reply. I have no idea why. Again, 1010 01:34:21.920 --> 01:34:27.079 Elon Musk, if he's listening to this, should probably fix that. 1011 01:34:28.039 --> 01:34:30.800 But discord doesn't have that problem. Yeah, I have opened dms, and 1012 01:34:31.199 --> 01:34:35.760 if I haven't approved you or I'm not following you, then they won't show 1013 01:34:35.840 --> 01:34:40.600 up. And so then yeah, periodically it's like, oh you message me, 1014 01:34:40.800 --> 01:34:45.439 I'm up there. Two Yeah, anyway, sorry, Yeah, what 1015 01:34:45.600 --> 01:34:50.560 what's your Twitter handle? That might another? Oh? Easy, easy to 1016 01:34:50.640 --> 01:34:55.399 remember. All right, Well, we'll go ahead and wrap it up until 1017 01:34:55.479 --> 01:34:57.000 next time. Folks max out