WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:04.040 This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to kf I AM six forty, 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:09.080 the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show on demand on the iHeartRadio app k I AM six 3 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.759 forty. You have doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy 4 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:15.599 Walls Show. I'm taking your calls and answering your social media questions. If 5 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.320 you've got a relationship question, give me a call. The numbers one eight 6 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:23.039 hundred five to zero one KFI. That's one eight hundred five to zero, 7 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:26.280 one, five, three four. Okay, Producer Kayla, who do we 8 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.800 have? First, we have Don with a question? Don? Hi, 9 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:35.280 Don is doctor Wendy. What's your question? Hello? Hello, We're going 10 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:37.439 to get rid of them. Okay, we have lydia. Then with a 11 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:41.200 question, Okay, Hi lydia. Now we have lydia. Hi, Hi, 12 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:46.119 doctor Hi, what's your question? Low? Hi? So my question 13 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:49.840 is in reference to my son. We are a military family. I have 14 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:54.320 two sons. They're both military and their dad, my husband, is also 15 00:00:54.359 --> 00:01:00.799 a military. My youngest son, who's thirty two, My other son is 16 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:04.640 thirty seven. The oldest one has a family, he's married with two kids. 17 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.840 My youngest one is not, thank you. My youngest one is not. 18 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:19.400 They both served during wartime overseas. The youngest one is lyrically retired through 19 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:29.359 the army. He's gizophrenic, and very issue with him is that he's only 20 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:34.120 thirty two. Doctor. He's on medication, strong medication for his condition, 21 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:40.159 and he so much wants a family. He does need women. He gets 22 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:45.239 close to them. They like him. He's somewhat open about his condition. 23 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:52.120 When he tells them what's going on with him, they automatically and leave. 24 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.719 No, he doesn't. He wants a family. He wants a wife and 25 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:06.120 kids. But he's very much is he working with a therapist. He does 26 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.960 have a therapist, he does have doctors. And I'm actually his caregiver because 27 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:20.439 he does have moments when he has catatonic episodes where I have to go and 28 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.560 find him at the gym or wherever he's at because he's having an episode where 29 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:31.560 he physically freezes and he can move. That doesn't happen too often, but 30 00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:37.639 it does happen. Otherwise, he's he's on medication and he's if you see 31 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:40.159 him, he looks like a normal person, which he is. Doctor. 32 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:45.919 He's so generous, he is such a good man, and you sound like 33 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.599 such a good mom, Lydia, And first of all, thank you to 34 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:54.039 your whole family for their service, and especially your son's having served during wartime. 35 00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:01.599 I want you to explore how much of your desire to see him with 36 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:07.840 a spouse and with a family is partly so that he can have somebody else 37 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:12.759 caring for him as well, because I'm sure you, as his caregiver, 38 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.439 are feeling the stress of it all and wondering about what's going to happen as 39 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:22.879 he ages. And for that reason, I would suggest that you yourself get 40 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:28.680 a therapist to talk about your feelings around this. And you know, I 41 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:30.840 want to say that to everybody out there, for those that feel pressured to 42 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:35.719 have a one on one romantic relationship that's going to last a long time, 43 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:42.800 is that twenty percent of humans throughout history and today do not reproduce biologically, 44 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.319 either because it just doesn't happen or they can't find a mate on time. 45 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:52.840 But they are very important allo parents. They're necessary in our culture and our 46 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:58.080 species. I would say that one of the things that would probably help your 47 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.599 son the most is for him to gain all kinds of social support. Friends, 48 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:04.360 he can go out with and hang out with. It's good to hear 49 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:09.319 he's able to go to the gym and he's being healthy. But there's so 50 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:14.439 much to unpack here with a family, with dealing with a patient like this 51 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.480 that I really encourage you to get individual therapy yourself or family therapy so that 52 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:24.639 you, guys can sort out yourself. What is the best way to go 53 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:28.959 for him? He sounds like a lovely guy. I'm so proud and happy 54 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:31.519 that he he's in a family with the kind of support he's given. But 55 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:36.399 I don't want you to suffer from caregiver burnout. Lydia, thank you so 56 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:42.360 much for calling. Oh it's a tough one, isn't it? All right? 57 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.319 We have Tim with a question, Doctor Wendy. Okay, Hi, 58 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:47.720 My heart goes out to them. Hi, Tim, it's doctor Wendy. 59 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:55.920 Hi Tim. What's your question? Tim? My girlfriend? He has a 60 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:04.680 only fan, uh huh. And she she's with the other guys constantly every 61 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:11.079 night on the on the computer. Yes, not meaning in the real world, 62 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:16.600 No, in real world, they're videoing it. So how do you 63 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:21.319 feel about this? Well, really, I don't know how to feel, 64 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:26.959 you know, Well, that's the first question to figure out what your feelings 65 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:30.519 are around this. I think you know, as a feminist, I'll say 66 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.560 like women should be able to use their bodies however they want to. But 67 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:39.560 within a given relationship, you're going to set up rules, right, And 68 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:44.560 how long have you been seeing her? Four years? And when did she 69 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:50.560 begin this? A year into the relationship? And did she tell you about 70 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.160 it that she was going to thinking of needing to make extra money? Like, 71 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.279 what's her reason for doing this? Oh? No, she hit it 72 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:05.240 for me for like two years and I found out this upcoming year. Well, 73 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:10.720 she hit it for a reason because she feels that it would upset you, 74 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:15.480 right, And you know, I really think that two of you can 75 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.800 use this as a way to get closer, to talk about your feelings. 76 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.120 But what you said to me, you're not sure of your feelings around it. 77 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:26.720 So that's the first thing. I want you to get straight on your 78 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.839 feelings and that it's okay to have any feeling. All feelings are welcome. 79 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:34.839 Right. You may find that it doesn't this relationship is not going to work 80 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.800 for you because you might have feelings that say this is not going to be 81 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:42.439 okay. On the other hand, you might be a liberal guy who says, 82 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:44.959 Look, she's not meeting him in the real world. It's something she 83 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.519 does to bring finances into the household. I mean, there are lots of 84 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:50.319 different ways to look at it, Tim, and it's not for me to 85 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:56.720 tell you how to feel, but I do encourage you to spend some time 86 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:00.759 and find a way to communicate with her what you are feeling. When you 87 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:03.399 finally do sort it out, thank you so much for calling. All right, 88 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:08.079 Do I have time for a couple social medias? All right, dear 89 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:12.560 doctor Wendy. Is it a red flag if a girl is thirty, why 90 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:14.600 she's not a girl. If she's thirty, she's a woman. If a 91 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:19.199 woman is thirty and has never been in a serious relationship, my answer is 92 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:26.519 not necessarily, especially these days, during these times, this particular younger generation 93 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:30.079 is starting later, dating later. Everything is shifting, right, Some of 94 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:34.680 the things my generation did as teenagers people aren't starting until the age of twenty 95 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:40.600 five, right, And so just because she's never been in a serious relationship 96 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:45.480 doesn't mean she doesn't want a serious relationship. And rather than judging her for 97 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.600 it, ask some questions, you know why, and tell me about your 98 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:55.600 experiences, maybe sexual Maybe she's had short term sexual relationships that she said, 99 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.920 that's been fine, but now I want to settle down because I'm thirty and 100 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:01.720 I want to have a family. All normal, All fine, So I 101 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:07.480 think it's something that you can talk about, right, not necessarily a red 102 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:09.759 flag, all right. I think we have time for one year more. 103 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.120 Let me go to Instagram. Here, here we go, Dear doctor, 104 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:20.120 Wendy, my ex texted me, and then she puts in quotations just to 105 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:24.720 heads up. I took you off the Costco membership, didn't want you to 106 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:28.439 know, and go hope all is well and goes well. Take care. 107 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:33.360 Then she writes, after two years of no contact or speaking to one another 108 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:37.879 after our breakup, is this all it means? Should I just ignore it? 109 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.320 My heart still aches and I've never moved on after him. Advice, 110 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:50.679 Please, okay, move on. It's two years and obviously he was a 111 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:54.279 nice guy. He doesn't want you to get embarrassed at Costco. So he's 112 00:08:54.360 --> 00:09:00.279 letting you say face by letting you know. That's all that is. I 113 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:05.480 know, I know, especially if someone has an anxious attachment style, they're 114 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.440 going to be hanging on every text and every word, and they're going to 115 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.759 be worried that it means more and maybe he wants you back. No, 116 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.840 he's just being polite and saying, by the way, don't embarrass yourself at 117 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:20.919 Costco. You're not on a Costco membership anymore. That's it. And I 118 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.240 know it may have triggered you because of the reminders of him, and maybe 119 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:30.240 even the reminders that he was nice. But I really encourage you to move 120 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.080 on. And if you can't move on and it's two years later, then 121 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:37.720 you really need to see a licensed therapist to find out what is going on 122 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:43.399 inside of you that keeps you attached to somebody that is not interested in you 123 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:48.879 anymore. Sorry. You know, some people stay attached to their excess through 124 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.799 fights, and you know they're fighting over the kids, the child support, 125 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.200 the alimony, the when the see and they find ways to hate each other. 126 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:01.039 But he keeps them attached, right, Attachment is That's the craziest thing 127 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.159 how it works with us. I know it hurts. I don't mean to 128 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:07.480 belittle it, but there is a giant wake up call for you. It's 129 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:11.720 time to let it go, ignore it and move on. All right. 130 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:16.480 When we come back the peacock, you know, the streamer Peacock has a 131 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:24.000 new show called Couple to Thrupple, and guess what. They get a few 132 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.360 things wrong about polyamory. I'll explain when we come back. You are listening 133 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:31.480 to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty we live everywhere on 134 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:39.519 the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM 135 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.120 six forty. KFI AM six forty, you have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. 136 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:46.000 This is the Doctor Wendy Walls Show. Well, we knew it would 137 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:54.360 be coming right. Imagine if you had the chance to pre permissive I mean 138 00:10:54.440 --> 00:11:01.200 completely all permission, non monogamous in paradise. Yeah. So there's this new 139 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.559 dating show on Peacock. We knew we'd get there. Couple to Thropple. 140 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:11.720 Uh huh. This is where four couples arrive on a tropical island at a 141 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:22.200 beautiful resort and they meet fourteen glamorous singles who all say that they've participated in 142 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.039 throuples before and they want to see if the polyamorous lifestyle is for them. 143 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:31.639 Okay, I mean think of it. A bunch of attractive couples, a 144 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:37.720 luxurious vacation on an island resort on call sex and relationship experts if you need 145 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.879 them, triple occupancy beds to share with the single of your choice. And 146 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:48.240 apparently those beds get used right away. It's called couple to thropple. It's 147 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:54.279 on the peacock and guess what. It gets a ton of things wrong about 148 00:11:54.279 --> 00:12:00.200 polyamory. First of all, people in general use the term polyamory, and 149 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:07.840 correctly, polyamory means a love relationship between two or three, four, five, 150 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:13.600 six, whatever, a group of people who all love each other equally 151 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:18.360 and share many things together. It's not about having a sexual threesome and being 152 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:24.200 just about the sex, right. It's about people loving each other in a 153 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:30.679 committed relationship. So today there's another growing trend called ethical non monogamy or conscious 154 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.600 non monogamy, and people will sometimes lump that in with polyamory. It's actually 155 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:41.440 different. I mean, ethical non monogamy is getting to cheat with permission. 156 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:46.000 Basically the practice of or desire for a romantic relationship with more than one partner 157 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.399 at a time, but you have to have informed consent of all partners. 158 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.840 I remember one time when I did I think my podcast mating matters We did 159 00:12:54.320 --> 00:13:01.799 a polyamory episode called Polywannacracker and one of the young women that interviewed said that 160 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.720 she dated a guy who was polyamorous and I go, oh, really, 161 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:09.639 how was that? And she said, well, you know, I just 162 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:11.320 got tired of hooking up with him. And I'm like him, I thought 163 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:15.159 you guys were polyamorous, Like, where's his wife? Like, what was 164 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.399 the deal? Oh? No, he told me he was polyamorous. I 165 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.919 go, what, Yeah, he told me that his wife said it was 166 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.240 okay. I'm like, this is not polyamory. This is a guy lying 167 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.240 to you. And did you ever meet the wife? Did you ever get 168 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:35.120 this informed consent from her? No? But he told me she knew. 169 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.000 I'm like, okay, this is gold cheating and making you feel better about 170 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.519 it, like you're not hurting a woman or something. I don't know. 171 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.240 Anyway, there's so many lucy goosey things out here. So here's what this 172 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.919 show gets wrong. None of the couple seem to have poly rules from the 173 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:54.480 beginning. Literally, every polyamorous couple or family that I know have some kind 174 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.559 of rules. Different rules. Right. It might be, well, we 175 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.240 all, if we're going to do it, we have to be interested in 176 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:05.559 a whole other couple, and the four of us have to have sex together, 177 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:09.120 or I have to like the wife, you have to like the husband, 178 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.840 and we can go in separate rooms. But blah blah blah, or 179 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:18.279 like any other dating relationship, let's figure out who does domestic responsibilities, who 180 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.440 raises the kids, who does the driving, and where do you sit in 181 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:24.399 the car. You remember a few years ago, I had this guy on 182 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:28.639 my show who wrote that famous book, The Game, the one about the 183 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.799 pickup rules, about how to pick up women. And then later he got 184 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:35.960 the Truth and he wrote a book called The Truth, and he finally settled 185 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.279 down with a wife and a baby and felt bad about it all. But 186 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.399 in the book, as he was finding his way to the truth, he 187 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.000 talks about trying polyamory, and he said the thing that drove him the most 188 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:50.320 crazy about it that you think it'd be great to have two or three or 189 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:52.919 more girls in the household. They always just argued about who got to sit 190 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:56.759 in the front seat, right, because at the end of the day, 191 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:03.679 it becomes this hierarchical struggle. Real polyamorous couples don't go to a desert island. 192 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:09.360 I mean a rot tropical island and just share sex. In reality, 193 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:15.559 poly couples share their individual needs. In fact, there was one study done 194 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:22.519 of polyfamilies and the people in the study mentioned that one of the primary benefits 195 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.639 of being polyamorous was being able to get their needs met by spreading them out 196 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:31.159 amongst multiple people. Now I'm not just talking about sexual needs. It could 197 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:35.840 be emotional needs. It could be domestic responsibility, having more people to help 198 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:41.080 with the kids. So some of the people in polyamorous pollocules as they call 199 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.919 them polycules. I love that. It just sounds so cute, doesn't it. 200 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:48.440 Polycules. They might be lovers, they might just be friends, they 201 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:54.480 could be exes. Right, they're just hanging around helping with the family, 202 00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:03.159 and they have mutually supportive relationships. The other thing that this show from Couple 203 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:10.360 to Thrupple does is it forces what's called couple's privilege to create sexual jealousy. 204 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:17.639 So I mentioned that Thrupples and other polyamorous couples often struggle with these power dynamics, 205 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:22.279 these hierarchies. Who's the main couple and who's the extra right, So 206 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.960 on this show, they're very clear who the couple is and the other person 207 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.919 is an extra and the whole thing is done to put the person in a 208 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:34.480 secondary position and try to create some kind of sexual jealousy, thinking like maybe 209 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:38.159 they want to be in first position, right. And the other thing the 210 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:45.240 show does really wrong is they don't show any relationship building. See the biggest 211 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:51.159 misconception about polyamory is that their primary focus is on having sex. I don't 212 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:56.039 know if any of you have been in long term monogamy, but the sex 213 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:59.120 becomes the least part. I mean, at the beginning, it's the best, 214 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.559 it's the biggest part of the relationship. Then it becomes the smaller part 215 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.279 of the relationship. I'm making up this percentage, but you know, at 216 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.240 the beginning of falling in love with somebody, it's ninety percent about sex and 217 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.599 ten percent about the rest of the relationship. But ten years into it, 218 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:18.599 it's ninety percent about the attachment, the emotional intimacy, the domestic responsibility, 219 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.799 the building a life together, and ten percent about the sex. I had 220 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.960 a eurologist once when I went for a bladder in fiction and she goes, 221 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:30.799 uh, because I was single, And she said, have you ever heard 222 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.599 the Penny in the Jar story? And I don't know what's a penny in 223 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.960 the jar story, she said, So what they tell young married women to 224 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.160 do is the first year of marriage, put a penny in the jar every 225 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.920 time you have sex, and what you'll find is it takes one year to 226 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:48.640 fill the jar. And after the first year, you take a penny out 227 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.680 every time you have sex, and it takes twenty years to empty the jar. 228 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.559 That's how long term relationships work. But on this show, couple to 229 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:07.519 throupple, they move way too fast and they create instant insecurity by the other 230 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.319 partner. It's all you know, Ta da, ta da. It's a 231 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:18.119 reality show. It's designed to create drama. And they don't have what's called 232 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:23.440 kitchen table polyamory, you know, where they are really a family hanging out 233 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:29.839 life and supporting each other. Instead, it's about just can I have an 234 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.039 affair in front of my spouse's eyes? And what does that feel like? 235 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.160 Huh? When we come back, I have a guest who has a lot 236 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:41.680 to say about polyamory, and he thinks we have a lot more in common 237 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:47.000 with the bonobos than we do with chimpanzees, who are aggressive and the bonobos, 238 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:49.119 I mean, they're the make love not war. They have sex with 239 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:55.000 everybody for all kinds of reasons. Doctor Christopher Ryan is next author of the 240 00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:00.200 New York Times bestseller Sex at Dawn, How We Mate, why we stray, 241 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.079 and what it means for modern relationships. You're listening to the Dr Wendy 242 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:07.599 Wall Show on KFI AM six forty we Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. 243 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:15.440 You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty. Welcome 244 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.400 back to Dr Wendywell Show on KFI AM six forty, Live everywhere on the 245 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:22.559 iHeartRadio apps. Well, if you've been listening to my show for a number 246 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:27.839 of years, you know that I have talked about the fact that we have 247 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:33.599 the widest range of sexual behavior of any primate species, but that we socially 248 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:40.480 organize, organize. I got that word out ourselves around monogamy. I'll tell 249 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:45.319 you I was a single mother for eighteen years. I felt so excluded from 250 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:49.279 dinner tables, dinner parties. Literally I couldn't find any of my friends, 251 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:55.079 my mom friends on Sundays because that's when they were doing stuff with the dude 252 00:19:55.160 --> 00:20:00.000 family day. And that's why these villages of single mothers deve to support each 253 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.720 other because when you're excluded from monogamy, who are you? What are you? 254 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.039 Now? I want to tell you there's a book that I've been meaning 255 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.640 to read for a really long time, and I finally did it because I 256 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:15.160 was prompted by so many of my listeners who were in my Patreon group. 257 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.720 We decided this month to make it like a book group for the month, 258 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.759 and we're all reading the New York Times bestseller Sex at Dawn. They can't 259 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.039 stop talking about this book. I think we're going to go on for weeks 260 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.400 talking about it. So you know, I just reached out and I got 261 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:33.599 the author right here on the show. I'd like to welcome doctor Christopher Ryan. 262 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.079 How are you, Chris, I'm great. Thank you for having me. 263 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.799 Your book is becoming a sensation around the world. It's been out for 264 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.240 quite a few years now, but I think it's getting this other resurgence because 265 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:51.359 everybody seems to mention it. To me. It is called Sex at Dawn, 266 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:56.319 How we mate, why we stray, and what it means for modern 267 00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:59.519 relationships. And we should say you co authored the book with your wife. 268 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.200 Who's this side? Kiatrist Tell me if I say her name correctly. Cacida 269 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:12.000 Jetha close Casilda, Casilda, it's an old Portuguese name. I saw the 270 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.559 two of you on stage giving a talk one time, and to realize you're 271 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.119 the extrovert, she's the introvert, so you do the talking. Well, 272 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:22.960 I think there's probably only one stage she ever agreed to go out on with 273 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:26.799 me, So I think I know which, which I've been talking about. 274 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:30.319 Toronto, yeah, idea City, Yeah. Yeah. When the book came 275 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.440 out, one of the deals. She didn't even want to be listed as 276 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.839 a co author, but she was so instrumental to to you know, giving 277 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.799 me the time to write the book and and helping, you know, reading 278 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.880 what I've written every day, and you've written books, you know how important 279 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.720 that is. So anyway, one of her only conditions was I don't do 280 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:53.799 any media. She's a very private person. So you go out and you 281 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.759 talk to people and leave me, leave me out of that. Well, 282 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.160 it seems to work wonderfully for you, guys. So let's get to the 283 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:06.119 book, Sex at Dawn. First of all, you say very clearly that 284 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:10.680 the book is not necessarily an anti monogamy book. Say more about that, 285 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.039 Well, yeah, I think that's one of the main misunderstandings. So it 286 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:21.440 is something I try to that's a drum I beat pretty regularly. A lot 287 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:23.839 of people have a hostile reaction to the book because they think that what it's 288 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:29.559 arguing is that there's something wrong with monogamy, and that's not at all what 289 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:34.319 we're arguing. I have great respect for people who choose to be monogamous. 290 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:41.200 My parents lived monogamously for fifty some years and happily. But the point of 291 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:47.240 the book is, let's look at what kind of species we are, and 292 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:52.160 let's if we're choosing monogamy, let's do so from an informed, honest, 293 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:59.599 open hearted perspective. And the fact is that our ancestors and our species is 294 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.240 not by nature monogamous. That's just simply the fact. And so if we 295 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:10.559 begin from that point and we say, well, monogamy is a viable choice, 296 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.920 but it is going to be difficult because it goes against our nature as 297 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:18.680 a species, then I think we will be better prepared for the challenges of 298 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:25.559 monogamy and perhaps more compassionate for occasional slip ups in ourselves and our partners, 299 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.640 and most importantly, we avoid the unnecessary shame and suffering of thinking that this 300 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:36.680 is something that should be easy for us it isn't, and all that unnecessary 301 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:41.359 suffering of people who are attracted to someone other than their partner and they feel 302 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:45.759 that that's an indictment of themselves or their partner, there's something wrong with their 303 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:49.640 relationship. There isn't. That's just the nature of Homo sapiens. My favorite 304 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.559 line that I heard you say once in a talk is just because you choose 305 00:23:53.640 --> 00:24:00.279 to be a vegetarian doesn't mean that bacon doesn't smell delicious, right, exactly 306 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:07.319 because our ancestors were omnivores, So we can choose to live as vegetarians or 307 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:12.480 herbivores, but by nature, that's not the diet we're drawn to. So, 308 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.400 you know, and if you look at human consciousness in general, it's 309 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:25.160 pretty obvious we're very curious, intelligent, highly social species, so we're drawn 310 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:29.200 to we're curious. We were interested in different kinds of music and different kinds 311 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:33.720 of food, and we love to travel and different art, and so why 312 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.279 wouldn't we be curious about our sexuality. It simply makes no sense. And 313 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:42.200 some of the modern evidence that you use in the book Sex at down is 314 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:48.799 the fact that women want to have sex all through the month, not only 315 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:53.680 when they're fertile, and that sex is used for much more than reproduction in 316 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:57.720 our species. What are the other reasons, I mean my own reasons of 317 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:02.079 why I like sex, but what are the other reasons that humans have sex? 318 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.240 Well, the main argument that we present in sex Sedan is that our 319 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:14.319 species, along with a handful of other species, very few has co opted 320 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:21.559 sexuality for these other purposes, and the main purpose is establishing and maintaining complex 321 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:27.359 intimate social networks. So our ancestors, who you know, until very recently 322 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:34.880 in terms of evolutionary time, lived in hunter gatherer bands. They shared everything, 323 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:41.960 they shared food, they shared childcare, they shared access to all resources. 324 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:48.200 And yet the mainstream argument is that we shared everything except our sexual partners, 325 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:53.400 that we lived in nuclear families, and that's so clearly projection that you 326 00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.680 know, when you look at anthropological studies, what you see is no, 327 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.440 there's no people aren't living in nuclear fans. At least people are living in 328 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:07.960 bands of anywhere from twenty to one hundred people depending on the environment, and 329 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:15.720 they're known as fiercely egalitarian, meaning they insist on sharing everything that's how they 330 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:22.400 survived through this cooperation and interdependence, and sexuality is part of that. I 331 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.039 heard you mentioned a few minutes ago how we're one of a very few we're 332 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.720 hyper sexual as far as primates go. But we're also one of the few 333 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:37.599 mammals that has sex through in ways that don't result in pregnancy. So, 334 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.640 as you mentioned, throughout the menstrual cycle, when the female is already pregnant 335 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:49.880 or postmenopausal. This is common in species that are highly social and highly intelligent, 336 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:56.559 and sexuality is serving these other functions in addition to reproduction. Doctor Christopher 337 00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:57.720 Ryan, we have to go for a break. We stay with me for 338 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:02.599 one more. I want to ask you why you think we're more like Bonabo's 339 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:08.839 than we are chimpanzees, and also why in our anthropological past we rarely had 340 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:12.440 sex with a stranger. You're listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI 341 00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:18.839 AM six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to Doctor Wendy 342 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:22.839 Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty. Mack to the Doctor w Wall 343 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:27.240 Show on KFI AM six forty. My guest, Doctor Christopher Ryan, author 344 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:32.880 of the New York Times bestseller Sex at Dawn, How We Mate, why 345 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:38.079 we stray, and what it means for modern relationships. All right, so 346 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:42.920 so much in your book, and you interview or sort of quote so many 347 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:48.440 evolutionary psychologists evolutionary biologists, and you say that there was an error in a 348 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.519 lot of the early research because they seem to always compare us to chimpanzees and 349 00:27:53.559 --> 00:28:00.000 never bonibos. Why did that happen? I think because Bonobo's both undermine the 350 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:04.960 sort of mainstream argument that these scientists wanted to make, which is that monogamy 351 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:11.799 comes naturally to our species. And also because Banovo's embarrass them. Bonobos are 352 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:19.319 highly sexual. Their sexuality is basically part of hourly behavior. It's constant, 353 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:25.960 and it's not necessarily intercourse all the time. But they're friends of all. 354 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:30.559 Who's one of the great experts on chimps, and Bonobo's famously said chimps use 355 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:37.279 violence to get sex. Banobos use sex to avoid violence. So bonobos undermine 356 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:42.279 this idea that our ancestors are violent and male dominant. You know that we 357 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:49.559 need these overriding social institutions to protect us from each other, because without government 358 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:52.559 or big Brother or whatever it is, you know, stopping us, we 359 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:57.640 would destroy one another. Bonobos show that that's not true. And banobos and 360 00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:03.640 chimps are equidistance from humans in terms of share share, like ninety eight percent 361 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.359 of our DNA with both species correct, exactly, and it's exactly the same 362 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:12.279 amount with each species. So does it seem like the chimpanzees help support the 363 00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:18.279 idea of patriarchy and Homo sapien precisely. Yeah. And most of the scientists 364 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:25.720 who were creating these theories were obviously men who considered themselves to be alpha males, 365 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.599 right, they had the psychology department at Harvard or whatever, and so 366 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.359 that sort of fit into their worldview. The idea of a species that's female 367 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:41.000 dominant, that's highly peaceful, that share sexual partners, that raises young interdependently, 368 00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:47.279 and which has never been witnessed to rape, murder or kill an infant. 369 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:51.519 No infanticide, no rape, no murder has ever been witnessed in bonobos, 370 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.359 and all of the activity or in the wild, and all those things 371 00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:57.960 are really common with chimpanzees. They're aggressive, they practice infanticide to try to 372 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:04.240 get the women fertile again, and very very violent and aggressive is it true 373 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:11.000 that bonobos are highly matriarchal and that if rape does take place, they will 374 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:15.599 actually punish the male females. Well, well, I mean, as I 375 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.319 said, no rape has ever been witnessed in banobos, But it's true that 376 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:26.119 the females will gang up on any male who who is overly pushy with a 377 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.160 female. And that's that's the major difference between chimps and bonobos is that in 378 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:37.359 banobos the females really stick together. In chimps, the females are separated and 379 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.039 they don't cooperate much. So, you know, there are applications to that 380 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.960 to human life. If the women stick together and protect one another and support 381 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:53.279 one another, they're much more powerful. And also if sex is freely available, 382 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:59.640 there's much less male aggression. Yes, that is one good thing is 383 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:03.359 that as sex rises in a sexual economy, then guys are happier, more 384 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.200 calm. You find less rape, less violence. Now, one of the 385 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.359 things you mentioned is that in our hunter gatherer past that we traveled in mostly 386 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:15.759 related bands of people thirty to forty and doctor David Buss says that in our 387 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:21.200 entire lifetime we probably never laid eyes on more than one hundred and fifty different 388 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:26.119 humans. We weren't having sex with strangers. And what is different about today 389 00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.480 is that a new mate is a thumb swipe a day, and you could 390 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.920 potentially see a thousand or more new potential mates in a given day. How 391 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:41.119 do you think that impacts us? Yeah, I think that's a major difference 392 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.799 that a lot of people miss when they read the book or think about these 393 00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:49.759 things. When they read that our ancestors were promiscuous maters, they think of 394 00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:53.880 promiscuity as you described it, where it's sex with strangers all the time. 395 00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.759 But our ancestors didn't know any strangers, never encountered strangers. So this was, 396 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.440 you know, a very different kind of promiscuity where yes, there were 397 00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:08.119 multiple sexual partners, but these were all, as I said earlier, intimate 398 00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:13.279 social networks, where you knew this person your whole life. You know, 399 00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:20.119 you protected their children. The women breastfed one another's children regularly, You share 400 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:25.920 food, you share everything. So this is not casual, uncarrying cold sexual 401 00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:30.000 interactions. This is the very opposite of that. You know, they were 402 00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:35.799 probably even having sex with distant cousins. My own family is from an island 403 00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.480 on the east coast of Canada called Prince Edward Island, and my grandmother and 404 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.720 grandfather were third cousins because it's a small, little homogeneous island with very few 405 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.279 mates to choose from. And she used to tell me when I was a 406 00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:49.839 kid, you know, you can never marry your first cousin, the second 407 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:54.039 cousin, eh, but third cousin you're fine. Well, Darwin married his 408 00:32:54.079 --> 00:33:01.079 first cousin, oh dear. Yeah, but right. Sex is actually not 409 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.440 sort of natural or normal to us, And I think that's what we need 410 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:09.200 to get closer to. Now we're seeing we only have a few minutes left, 411 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:13.559 but we are seeing a rise of women in our culture. Do you 412 00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:19.160 think economically educationally, some would say we have an oversupply of successful women in 413 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:22.839 the mating marketplace who are having trouble finding mates, partly because they've got patriarchy 414 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:25.680 in their head and want a guide to make more money than them. But 415 00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:30.720 do you think in the long run, creating this economic equality is good for 416 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:35.839 human mating. Yeah, I think it is. If you look at societies 417 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:42.200 with much more sort of equal income distribution and far more women and positions of 418 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:49.480 power and wealth, you see much happier families, much lower divorce rate, 419 00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:54.839 much healthier children, you know, mentally, psychologically, places like Sweden, 420 00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:00.400 Denmark and so on. So clearly, yeah, having women have direct access 421 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:07.839 to resources and not need to go through men empowers them to not be manipulated 422 00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:10.559 and not be pushed into position that men may want them to be in a 423 00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:15.559 more subservient role. And that's good news for women and for men because they 424 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:21.519 get more sex. Doctor Christopher Ryan, thank you so much for joining us 425 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.719 on KFI. I encourage you guys out there to get the book because although 426 00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:29.599 it was based on his doctoral dissertation, it is very easy. It's an 427 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.920 easy read, it's fun, it's light. The book is Sex at Dawn, 428 00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:37.559 How we mate, why we stray, and what it means for modern 429 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.920 relationships. Thanks for being with us, doctor Ryan, and that brings the 430 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:44.880 Doctor Wendy Walsh Show to a close. I'm always here for you every Sunday 431 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:49.519 on KFI from seven to nine pm, as well on my Patreon group every 432 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:52.239 Wednesday night at six thirty, and you can follow me on my social media 433 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.760 at doctor Wendy Walsh. You've been listening to the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show on 434 00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:01.119 KFI AM six forty Alive everywhere on the irt Radio app you've been listening to 435 00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:05.280 Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear us live on KFI a M six 436 00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:09.400 forty from seven to nine pm on Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app