1 00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:54,719 Hello, Welcome everyone. It's when I take a minute to introduce everyone here, 2 00:00:54,799 --> 00:01:00,159 just in case anyone isn't familiar. So with me tonight is Andy Mercer, 3 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:06,040 who composed the music you just heard. So Andy, instead of exercising 4 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:12,400 demons, uses demons to exercise his neighbors. Absolutely, and also with me 5 00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:22,200 is Steve Ward, who has replaced Mothman as Point Pleasant's weirdest resident. I'm 6 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:30,599 happy to do so and joining us now. Hi, Bill, good evening. 7 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,400 Hi Susie, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. 8 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:38,879 I think I know these other two guys I can see. I think you've 9 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,599 heard me before, but usually hide behind them. Doesn't have a camera on. 10 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,359 But Mi's the fun one this time for a giant. Hi, Andy, 11 00:01:44,359 --> 00:01:46,719 how are you? I'm pretty good? Bill, that's how you doing. 12 00:01:47,079 --> 00:01:51,560 I've got no legitimate complaints. Hello, Steve, Hey, how's it 13 00:01:51,599 --> 00:01:57,120 going? Bill? I'm waiting for your introduction here the boy by the way. 14 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,439 Will Jackie be able to stay with us tonight? You know what. 15 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,280 I just got off the phone with her and she's on the way home. 16 00:02:05,599 --> 00:02:08,199 She won't be here for an hour or so. Okay, Susie, Shall 17 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,360 I go ahead and introduced Bill? Absolutely, and I'm going to introduce Jackie 18 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,919 as well in case she can join us later. Jackie and Bill Kuslis, 19 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:23,439 PhD are authors of Bridging the Tragedy, a book based upon the nineteen sixty 20 00:02:23,439 --> 00:02:29,159 seven Silverbridge disaster in Point Pleasant, West, Virginia, Mothman and post traumatic 21 00:02:29,199 --> 00:02:34,759 growth, a phenomenon that often occurs after tragedy. Bill's interest in the paranormle 22 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,840 began in the late seventies with the original Project UFO television series. In two 23 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:44,719 thousand and three, he was introduced to the Mothman Prophecies movie and it changed 24 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:52,159 his life. Jackie is a retired USPS postmaster and a current business owner operator. 25 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:58,199 She specializes in research, data analysis, and connecting the dots between intuition, 26 00:02:58,599 --> 00:03:02,439 perception, and reality. Since twenty sixteen, Bill and Jackie have visited 27 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:07,520 Point Pleasant regularly, where they have become friends with several area residents, including 28 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:14,319 Mothman Museum owner Jeff Walmsley and the lake Carolyn Harris, co founders of the 29 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:20,479 Mothman Festival. Bill holds a doctorate in psychology with a focus on post traumatic 30 00:03:20,479 --> 00:03:25,199 growth the good things that can come from bad experiences. They reside in Sycamore 31 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,840 Illinois and it's great to see Bill again. Good to see you, Steve. 32 00:03:31,879 --> 00:03:36,080 Yeah, and thanks for joining us, Bill. And that kind of 33 00:03:36,159 --> 00:03:39,159 hit me the most when I read the Mothman Prophecies the first time. Was 34 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:46,560 you know, Mothman's kind of the least interesting part of the whole story, 35 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:53,280 right, And the way Keel described the bridge collapse itself, no one, 36 00:03:53,520 --> 00:04:00,759 you know, everyone kind of glosses over that, but it was I'm from 37 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,840 a small town about the same size as Point Pleasant, and I just, 38 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:10,599 you know, if that number of people had died in my hometown, you 39 00:04:10,639 --> 00:04:15,079 know, I think about like that would have been the end of the world 40 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:18,279 for us. You know at the time that it's such a huge event that 41 00:04:18,439 --> 00:04:24,560 everyone kind of glosses over when they talk about this. So your insight, 42 00:04:24,959 --> 00:04:29,879 I think it's perfect for this. Well, thank you. You're right. 43 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:34,319 I think you're the first person besides me that I've ever heard say that the 44 00:04:34,319 --> 00:04:41,800 Mothman was really not the most interesting or central part of the whole tale. 45 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,000 I mean, the Mothman prophecies is named the Mothman Prophecies, but I think 46 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,720 that a lot of the times people forget what the prophecies really were. We 47 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,279 hear about the black wings, we hear about people being scared, the red 48 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,319 eyes, chasing cars, all this kind of stuff, and that's fascinating, 49 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:05,240 horrifying, But the prophecies and the Silver Bridge disaster are equally powerful, if 50 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:12,720 not more so. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, I'd like to 51 00:05:12,759 --> 00:05:16,920 say that. You know, I I was a follower of John Keel back 52 00:05:16,959 --> 00:05:21,120 in the early days, which everybody that has heard any in my show knows 53 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:28,639 that. But I got the Mockman Prophecies book as soon as it was available, 54 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,600 and I visited Point Pleasant a couple of years later to kind of see 55 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,079 the area. But it wasn't until two thousand and six I went to my 56 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:42,600 first Mothman festival, met some of the people there, and then the next 57 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:46,720 time I read the Mockman Prophecies and read that chapter on the bridge collapse, 58 00:05:46,079 --> 00:05:51,480 it really hit home. It wasn't just a story people that I met people 59 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:58,240 that you know, survived the disaster. I met people that were in town 60 00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:01,079 at the time and saw the collapse or heard it, and it just made 61 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:08,120 a whole difference in the story that actually have been there and met the people 62 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,720 in Point Pleasant and now you live there, and now I live there. 63 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:15,560 Yes, on the very on the very road that the Scarberry's and Mallets were 64 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,319 chased by the wing Garuda. You know, I mean, who would have 65 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:21,519 would have thought, you know that a kid in junior high who read that 66 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:27,759 first major report that hit the wire services all over the world about the two 67 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:32,759 couples chased the int area into Point Pleasant and now here I am. And 68 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:38,399 what you said, Steve really resonates with me because after we you know, 69 00:06:38,439 --> 00:06:42,680 we've been traveling to Point Pleasant. We've probably been there ten times since twenty 70 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,800 sixteen, you know, at least once a year, if not twice, 71 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,399 and we've gotten to be friendly with so many people there. It really is 72 00:06:49,519 --> 00:06:55,839 just a wonderful, wonderful small town. And having interviewed people that we did 73 00:06:55,879 --> 00:06:59,720 for our book and gotten to know them, you know, really had an 74 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:03,079 end level. Jimmy Wedge lost both his mom and dad and the bridge disaster. 75 00:07:03,639 --> 00:07:09,240 Susan Sayer talked about how things were in her fifth grade classroom when Kathy 76 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,480 Bias's chair was pulled out because they never could find her body in the river. 77 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:16,399 I mean, all these different things. We watched the Mothman Prophecies movie 78 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,800 and I'm a junkie, I mean, I've probably watched it hundreds of times, 79 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,199 but when we watched it for the first time, you know, front 80 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,319 to end, after we did the interviews and got to know the people that 81 00:07:29,399 --> 00:07:31,199 we did, I mean, I had tears come to my eyes when that 82 00:07:31,199 --> 00:07:35,079 bridge went down, because I know now what it felt like for those people 83 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:41,240 who lost their parents, their children, their friends. You feel it. 84 00:07:41,319 --> 00:07:46,360 I mean, it's just such a powerful story. It's interesting that you were 85 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:49,720 introduced to all this from the film, and as someone who works occasionally at 86 00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:56,800 the Mothmaan Museum and greets people and answers their questions. So many people, 87 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,120 very few people have read the book, very people few people hit anything by 88 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:05,120 John Keeld, but so many have been introduced by that film, which now 89 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:11,040 is about twenty years old. So that's that's really amazing that that film had 90 00:08:11,079 --> 00:08:13,000 such an impact on you. When you saw it, you know, it 91 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:18,360 pulled me in. But when I picked up the book, started reading that 92 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:24,279 and then of course downloaded the audio version and have read and listened to that 93 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:28,879 thing countless times. At that point, you know, it just it became 94 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:33,200 part of who I am, I mean fundamentally, and Susie, like you 95 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,600 said, for me, we live in Sycamore, Illinois, which is a 96 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:41,200 little bigger than Point Pleasant, it's closer to nineteen thousand people. But five 97 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,360 miles to the north of US is a small town called Genoa. It's almost 98 00:08:45,399 --> 00:08:48,600 exactly the same size as Point Pleasant. So whenever I talk about the bridge 99 00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:52,639 disaster and about Point Pleasant with people who live in our area, I always 100 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:58,960 say that, picture a town of Genoa losing forty six people in a bridge 101 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,240 disaster. If you didn't know somebody in the bridge disaster, you knew somebody 102 00:09:03,279 --> 00:09:13,639 who knew somebody who was in the bridge disaster. Yeah, when I was 103 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:16,440 in high school, we had two kids that got killed in a crash, 104 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:22,399 and I remember how the town shut down practically, and that was two people. 105 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,720 So it's kind of even harder to fathom forty six at a time. 106 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,480 You know. What we heard from the people that we interviewed was disbelief when 107 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,720 they heard the Silver Bridge collapsed, or even people who knew because they saw 108 00:09:37,879 --> 00:09:41,720 or came upon it shortly after it went down. When they told family members, 109 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:46,720 the family members didn't believe them. They said, you must mean a 110 00:09:46,759 --> 00:09:50,320 smaller bridge, or you must mean part of the Silver Bridge. The Silver 111 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,039 Bridge didn't just fall into the water. That didn't happen, but absolutely it 112 00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:58,279 did. So Yeah, super powerful and just life altering for that whole region. 113 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,480 Really, and people do either of you know, did people in town 114 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:09,000 immediately connect the bridge collapse with Mothman or was that afterwards that that came to 115 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:18,519 be you're asking me either of you, if either of you have an opinion. 116 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:22,559 I'm just listening for Steve because I've been Okay, Well, I think 117 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:28,840 that when you know, there still may have been sightings of this creature or 118 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,159 apparation or whatever it was, There still may have been UFO reports. I 119 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,720 think that that horrible disaster took everybody's mind off that it was when there's a 120 00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:43,320 there's a part in the book by John Keel where these strangers these call them 121 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,279 men in black if you want, or there's just these creepy dudes that came 122 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,639 in to talk to Mary Higher, the reporter friend and colleague of John Keel 123 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:54,879 that wrote the column where the waters mingle. Uh. You know, here 124 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,399 she is dealing with the bridge disaster and you know, people's deaths and up 125 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:05,279 with the news, and some creepy dude asks asked her about UFO reports in 126 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:11,240 the area. If it was still going on, nobody gave a damn about 127 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:13,919 it anymore. Now, I tend to think there's a lot of people think 128 00:11:15,039 --> 00:11:22,759 Mothman was a harbinger. Some think that it created the disaster somehow. I 129 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:28,919 tend to think that all this and there's so in Susie're right, because Mothman 130 00:11:30,039 --> 00:11:37,759 isn't the only strange thing that happened in that during that time period. UFOs 131 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:45,240 strangers they called men in black animal mutilations, a psychic phenomenon. I tend 132 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:50,360 to think that it all just happened at the same time that the bridge collapsed. 133 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:54,399 I don't think there was a direct connection, but in people's hearts and 134 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:58,440 minds, there is a connection because it happened that same within that same about 135 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:05,440 thirteen once. And so that's why it's it's so amazing that uh uh you 136 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:11,320 know mentioned Carolyn Harris. Uh. That's great lady that Bill and Jackie met 137 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,600 up when they came down to Point Pleasant. I met her when I came 138 00:12:13,639 --> 00:12:18,919 down to Point Pleasant, a co founder of the Mothman Festival. Uh, 139 00:12:18,919 --> 00:12:24,559 a superb lady. She lost her young son. Uh. Her son was 140 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:30,240 crossing the bridge with her ex husband at that time. But nevertheless, uh, 141 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,759 you know, even though again the uh, this tragedy is connected with 142 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,840 the weird stuff that happened that year, she was all about doing whatever she 143 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:43,840 could to bring the town back. You know, she she must have she 144 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:46,720 must have had great foresight. I mean, who would have thought that this 145 00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:52,799 little festival would irrupted to thousands of people, bringing millions of Dolphards into the 146 00:12:52,840 --> 00:13:00,240 town. And but it was it was due to people like like Carolyn that 147 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,600 that just forged ahead and did not let that tragedy like this is that kind 148 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:11,320 of stuff that Bill writes about. Did not let that horrible tragedy win and 149 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:16,480 just bog everything down. So I don't think Mathman had a direct connection with 150 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,720 this bridge collapse. And I agree. I'm sorry. Go ahead, go 151 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,559 ahead, Susie. So I was going to say. In the beginning of 152 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,679 the book Keil Talks, he tells his story. I think it was a 153 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:35,679 home in New York that was haunted by a man wearing a cape and a 154 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,080 slouch hat. But there was never anyone that lived there that fit that description, 155 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,639 except for there was a writer who wrote a book with a character with 156 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:50,440 that description, kind of implying it's like a Tulpa type thing, and when 157 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,600 the bridge collapsed and it took everyone's minds to the bridge and everything going on 158 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:03,039 there and away from all the strange activity, the activity slowed down at least, 159 00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:07,759 if not stopped for a while. So it you know, them not 160 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:13,399 focusing on it anymore and focusing on something else may have been what stopped it 161 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,360 from happening. And that's what Jeff Walmsley says too. He said that although 162 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:22,879 there still were sightings, people didn't want to talk about Mothman because we're burying 163 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,240 loved ones. Now, you know, we've had this horrible tragedy happen. 164 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,559 This is real, we can quantify this. It's right in front of us. 165 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,440 It's a horrible disaster. We don't want to hear about any quote unquote 166 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:37,279 nonsense. Now that stuff was still happening, I don't think that it stopped, 167 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:41,960 although it had slowed down a little bit towards the tail end of sixty 168 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,639 seven as it was anyhow. But yeah, absolutely, to answer your original 169 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:52,360 question, I think it's more of a contemporaneous type thing. Two different things 170 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:54,919 happening at the same time. And my thought would be that if Mothman had 171 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:00,240 anything to do whatsoever. With the bridge disaster, it was more or as 172 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,039 a harbinger or as a warning. I don't think that it caused that disaster 173 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:11,200 to happen. Yeah, we like to blame things we don't understand and vilify 174 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,559 and demonize entities. I'm not going to talk about Puckquaji Steve, I see 175 00:15:15,559 --> 00:15:18,879 you making the face. Well, I will say this, Susie and I 176 00:15:18,919 --> 00:15:26,360 have discussed the way that so many people blame Native American curses or for so 177 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,120 many things. I mean, can't we just cut the Native Americans some slack 178 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,000 and you know, look elsewhere for curses for crimes. Yeah, we did 179 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:41,919 enough. Like alone, i'd say from a UK perspective, if you're like, 180 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,840 I've come to this the other way around. I first saw the movie, 181 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,600 then read the book afterwards. I remember watching the we think this is 182 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:50,759 amazing much learn more about this. For me as an observer, it gave 183 00:15:50,799 --> 00:15:54,960 the impression that there was a correlation between the collapse, but more, as 184 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:56,879 you guys have said, more of the sense of a warning of something that's 185 00:15:56,879 --> 00:16:00,240 going to happen. But one of the theories I kind of find interesting is 186 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,799 the very fact that that dramatic event occurred called ripples almost through time, I 187 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:10,559 feel like going backwards, so that these strange, anomalous occurrences were caused by 188 00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:14,759 the collapse by sending sort of strange impressions backwards through time, I feel like 189 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:18,399 and causing normally used to start to occur in a build up towards a rather 190 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,759 dramatic event. And that kind of relationship I found really quite fast, the 191 00:16:22,759 --> 00:16:26,519 possibility there's some kind of connection in that sense that it almost like a backwards 192 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:30,679 compatibility effect of the strange sightings were caused by an event that yet to occur, 193 00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:33,279 and it kind of makes any sense, But that's one of the ways 194 00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:37,080 I've sort of looked at the idea. But for me, certainly reading the 195 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,440 book after having seen the movie was like, hell, it is even more 196 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:45,000 strange and bazal and the movie is. It was really what's quite taken by 197 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,360 that fact that these guys always saying. John Kill talked a lot of stuff 198 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:52,120 in the book that relates to the more general sense of weirdness that I found 199 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,519 absolutely fascin and it's really got me into this sort of area more than the 200 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,200 more conventional ghost stuff, which is my more back my background has been goes 201 00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:04,440 investigations for many many years to move into the more the stranger stuff. She'll 202 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,519 we say that for me was a real life of reading the book, having 203 00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:12,240 seen the movie and think about how the editors. I love that we Keel 204 00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:18,240 would talk about the faceless editors cut out half his manuscript for Crying out Loud, 205 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,799 which fortunately some of that was salvaged in the Eighth Tower, which is 206 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,079 kind of a follow up. Yes, I must read that actually, so 207 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:26,960 I'm not read that one yet. I must get hold of that and read 208 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,240 that. Yeah, good good stuff. And the one that I've talked about 209 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:33,400 before, Operation Trojan Horses, one of the books that you know, did 210 00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:37,440 a major change room for me as soon asie I noticed that somebody at Horace 211 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:44,200 Smith has asked about the relationship between Keel and Gray Barker. Okay, if 212 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,920 I expound on that a little bit, that was on my list of things 213 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:53,079 to ask you, So thank you Horace for reminding me Gray Barker. I 214 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:59,319 actually met Grey Barker at the nineteen seventy six U Found Symposium. I won't 215 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,119 go into that store, but I got to talk to him and ask him 216 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,880 a bunch of questions. It was very cool. Never got to meet John 217 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:11,039 tele John Keel. Now Grey Marker was kind of a trickster. He would 218 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:15,960 some of the stuff he wrote was legitimate, but he wasn't above embellishing. 219 00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:22,519 And for example, his first book, famous book was called They Knew Too 220 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:26,039 Much about Flying Saucers, which was all about the Men in Black, right, 221 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,559 the first to think the first book written about the men in Black. 222 00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:33,559 And these, of course are the alleged UFO silencers that come and visit people 223 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:41,440 that have seen you know, UFOs or taken photographs and want to confiscate them. 224 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,480 And he said, you know, Gray started in an interview he gave. 225 00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:48,920 He said, Grace started writing this book and he was serious about it, 226 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,519 and then he kind of threw up his hands and started making it up. 227 00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:56,039 He said, you have to be very careful with Grey Barker. In 228 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,640 fact, there was a guy in the town that in two years ago before 229 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,799 he moved down to Point Pleasant. He won't give his name, but he 230 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,279 wrote a book published by Gray Barker. And Gray said, hey, if 231 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:14,640 you pretend to be this particular person that was silenced by the Men of Black, 232 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:18,799 I'll publish your book. So he was like, it's seventeen or eighteen, 233 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:21,680 so he said, okay, sounds good. And then years later, 234 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:22,640 I think it was in the nineties, he came forward and said, you 235 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,079 know, I was just a young kid and it was just all made up. 236 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:32,680 I forget the name of the character in the book, but Barker was. 237 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,759 And you know, if you ever get a chance to visit the Gray 238 00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:41,599 Barker Archives, they're in the Clarksburg Library. There's a separate building there, 239 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:48,319 and there's a room devoted to this awesome library of Gray Barker's, including six 240 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,359 issues of The UFO Phenomenon, which was the publication that our high school UFO 241 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,400 club published. If you open up a certain file, there they are. 242 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:03,000 But yeah, one last thing, there's a Grey Barker wrote his own book 243 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:08,759 about the before Keel did about Point Pleasant and the Mothman called the Silver Bridge. 244 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,359 And I even asked Barker about that, because a lot of people said 245 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:18,480 that Keel just ripped off Gray Barker, and of course he didn't. And 246 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,839 uh, and it was funny because Grey Barker says, oh, I'm sure 247 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,640 John, He said, none of us like to get our literary toes stepped 248 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,720 on, but I'm sure John wrote his own book he was such a character. 249 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,160 But there's a chapter in there about Grey Barker and John Keel when they 250 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:40,480 went to Point Pleasant and John Keel said he got everything wrong, so he 251 00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:44,799 had to rewrite the chapter. So that chapter in the Silver Bridge was written 252 00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:52,599 by John Keel, I think where one of the men in black characters said 253 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:59,680 he was a friend of Gray Barker too. Yes, yeah, the Mothman 254 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,480 prop and I'm trying to think. I was just listening to the audio version 255 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:06,640 of it over the course of the last week, just to kind of refresh 256 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,119 my memory a little bit. But there is a guy who I think, 257 00:21:11,079 --> 00:21:17,200 and Steve helped me out here a little bit. Was it was it? 258 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,200 It was the part in the book where I think it's on Long Island where 259 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,200 there was a family that had witnessed a UFO and a number of people were 260 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,279 coming to the house and checking things out. I may be getting stuff conavoluted, 261 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,440 but I remember that there was a guy who showed up at this house 262 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,720 and he was asking questions about Keel, but they had a baby and he 263 00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:41,759 wasn't even acknowledging the fact that the baby was there. Okay, that was 264 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:45,000 surround for like five hours. Am I am I convoluted. That was actually 265 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,920 in the inter a round point, wasn't It was the Scarberry's baby, and 266 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,839 this guy was said he was Jack Brown. He was this little, short, 267 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,519 creepy guy, you know in quote some man of black type. Now, 268 00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:00,680 look, it could be that, you know, some of these people 269 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:06,079 we associate with the dreaded men in black might just be a little strange. 270 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,440 I mean, we've all been in this realm for a while and we all 271 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:11,880 know people that are a little strange. Right, Okay, no, no 272 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,680 names are going to be mentioned here, but uh yeah, he showed up 273 00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:19,240 and he had had a tape recorder that he didn't seem to know how to 274 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:22,759 operate. He said he was from Cambridge, Ohio, and when he met 275 00:22:22,759 --> 00:22:26,599 somebody else from that area, he didn't seem to know anything about Cambridge. 276 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:33,839 So it was just totally bizarre. But yeah, he that was that was 277 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:42,160 from his Jack Brown, and always wanted to meet that guy. I wanted 278 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,319 to make a comment about the last question that the gentleman kind of kicked out 279 00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:51,839 to us here about Keel and Barker. There's one place in one of the 280 00:22:52,039 --> 00:22:56,599 Keel compilation books, one of the articles that Keil wrote, and he was 281 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:02,319 talking about Barker, and he used the term faction because Gray Barker would blur 282 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,119 fact and fiction into what he called faction. I like what Steve was saying. 283 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,960 Also, I remember, you know, specifically, when he was talking 284 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,039 about doing this writing and how he was he was really immersed in what was 285 00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:21,400 like a report. He was like making a report, and then he just 286 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,759 says the hell with it and just started making up all kinds of stuff after 287 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:27,559 that. So I think that Keel thought you needed to be wary of Barker 288 00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:32,359 because of his research methods and he just made things up. But he liked 289 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,279 him too. Oh, sure he liked him. They were friends. Yeah, 290 00:23:36,319 --> 00:23:41,680 definitely. It seems a real problem to have somebody who was not presented 291 00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:47,240 the full truth and was inventing part or rewriting part it because of course them 292 00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:52,960 people were detractors. Will say that throws it all into into out of Keel. 293 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,000 Really, you go out of Keel. But when he does affect the 294 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,359 whole area of research, and if one person has proven to be again even 295 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,640 faking things in making them or invent you or editing anyway, really I think 296 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,039 gives a problem to the whole picture. I mean, you know, there 297 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,200 are defunct the entire thing, and that gives them fuel. Unfortunately, well, 298 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,079 and that's the problem too. I think when legitimate researchers decide to get 299 00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:19,799 involved with creative writing, it can taint their entire legacy, which is unfortunate 300 00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:22,720 because I think Gray did a lot of good work, and I think he 301 00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:26,920 was he was a very good writer. I mean, the whole silver Bridge 302 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,279 book that he wrote. I don't take it literally. It's I think it's 303 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:33,799 meant to be more of an allegory, but it's really very well done, 304 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:40,599 very creative, and it's it's part of the whole picture. I mean, 305 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,480 you have to be you have to be careful about reading everything. I mean, 306 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,720 even John Keel got skunked once in a while. You know, he 307 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,680 accepted things that weren't true and made mistakes. So, you know, and 308 00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:56,640 people that criticize Keel, will or anybody will focus on something they see as 309 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:03,119 a mistake or or whatever and amplify that and then you know, block out 310 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,160 the whole important you know, and we've all been through that. It becomes 311 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,440 a common problem. In one of the things I researched a lot, and 312 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,079 they actually did a show last week and a different networking, but the Enfield 313 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:18,079 poltergeist that one is. And again it's a good example of the similar kind 314 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:21,640 of thing where you've got the teenage two teenage girls involved in the case. 315 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,279 Now, can you expect two teenage girls to behave properly the whole to not 316 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,319 make things, not fabricate stuff. Of course you can't. The kids, 317 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,799 you know, but because they probably did some of the stuff, wasn't real 318 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,920 that they actually did them, So they see the entire thing wasn't really because 319 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,799 there's so many witnesses was seeing strange political life activity in the house. You 320 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:41,119 had the police officers, you had other adults in the building, you had 321 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,279 researchers all seeing strange things occurring. But because the kids kind of admitted they 322 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:48,319 made some of the stuff up themselves, people will dismiss the entire case. 323 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,319 It has been all fabricated. See. It is that problem where you have 324 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,680 stuff that's been even deliberately faked or misconstrued, almost deliberately to try and build 325 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,359 the story. Even though they think, well, maybe there's a different nextmation 326 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,880 of these events, but we'll go with the one that fits the narrative we're 327 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,240 working on, which could often happen even to the best researchers. Even in 328 00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:11,680 the Mothman Prophecies, there is an episode that was later unraveled as being a 329 00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:17,720 hoax. There's a guy by the name of Tom who is about two thirties 330 00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:22,119 to three quarters of the way into the Mothman Prophecies book, and he talks 331 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,640 about having he's waiting tables, and this guy comes in to one of the 332 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,519 spots where he's waiting on tables and he orders food and he says that his 333 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:38,079 name is Vadig. And his story was almost identical to what Woodrow Derenberger talked 334 00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:45,319 about with Indrid Cold, even down to the point where he came for Tom 335 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,079 and then took him on a rickety type of estate spaceship to Lanulos, which 336 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,480 is the same place that Cold said that he was from to Darrenberger. But 337 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,279 then later on it turned out to be an entire hoax. But Keel took 338 00:26:57,319 --> 00:27:00,119 it as gospel, and it's in the Mothman propit. So was he perfect? 339 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,839 Absolutely not. Did he make mistakes, I think we all do, 340 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,400 but I don't think he deliberately set out to do that. I think this 341 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,720 is somebody who duped him and he thought it was legitimate. And the reason 342 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:17,680 he thought it was legitimate this is Tom montalone. Actually Tom Montlone wrote the 343 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,839 introduction to a book called The Mothman Files, and then there he tells what 344 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,920 happened. He said this was a college prank. He was telling John Keel 345 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,839 all this nonsense, and he said he could see Keel was zoning out and 346 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,160 he wasn't buying it. So he thought, I'm just going to pull stuff 347 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,160 out of my and he did. He came up with like black cars and 348 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,799 men in black. He hit about three things that Kiel had been investigating but 349 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,079 had been had kept close to his vest. He did not publish everything at 350 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:52,319 the time, but to actually prevent hoaxes. So Keel at that moment thought, 351 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,359 Holy Kyle, this guy has had a real experience. So I don't 352 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,799 know what it was, a bizarre coincidence or some kind of paranormal skullduggery. 353 00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:06,079 I don't know, but I can understand why he bought it at that time. 354 00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:11,200 Yeah, I mean you could also talk about the whole injured Colbusus itself 355 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:15,640 is Darrenberger doesn't seem particularly credible, but yeah, he seed a feature quite 356 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:21,160 prominently in the book always found that was quite interesting. Well, I was 357 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,400 going to say, and Andy to your point, Keel. When he was 358 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,000 interviewed later on, like years after the Mothman prophecies came out, he was 359 00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:33,240 asked about Woodrow Dhrenberger and if he thought he was legitimate, and he said, 360 00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:37,880 you know, I think that initially the first story was legitimate, but 361 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,359 then after that it seemed like he kind of lost it and went off the 362 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,359 deep end and made up more and more encounters and things got stranger and stranger 363 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,839 and stranger after that. So I think he think he did buy it. 364 00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:52,319 At first, he did believe him, but then he lost his credibility as 365 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:55,680 time went on. As far as Kiel was concerned, well, as you 366 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,519 recall, there were a couple other incidents that were very injured cold likeing one 367 00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:06,920 that happened before darren Berger came forward, almost identical, and it was the 368 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,799 same kind of a contact around along Route seventy seven, the elongated craft, 369 00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:17,799 the landing, a pointless conversation with an individual that looked suspiciously like Indrid Cold 370 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,359 and then the guy decided he wasn't going to go through with the story, 371 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,240 and because he had told John Keel and Mary Hyer and he said, you 372 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:30,319 know that sigentist fella said we should just forget all about it. And Keel 373 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,640 said, what scientist fella? And he said, well, I don't know, 374 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,960 but he seemed to know what he was talking about. And he said, 375 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,720 well, how did he find out about your story? You didn't tell 376 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,559 anybody except Mary Hire and I And he said, damned if I know. 377 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,559 And then there was the woman in Gallipolist that had a very sort of an 378 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:52,400 indrid cold like experience with the craft and individuals. Another bizarre point. You 379 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,680 know, if these guys are from other planets, it can't they have a 380 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:02,640 more a deeper conversation than just a mundane babble back and forth. Something we 381 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,400 can, you know, quote in a in a in a book or something. 382 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:11,160 But so it's the the in re coll thing is a complete paradise where 383 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,960 some of it seems to be substantive and I don't know whether it was black 384 00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:18,640 ops or paranormal, but some of it was just nonsense. So where did 385 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,279 you go with it? There was a big scene in the movie that was 386 00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:26,640 wondering. I remember I chance to fully read read the books of the other 387 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,000 things, but the scene in the movie where you have the voice on the 388 00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:36,160 phone talking too, and you have the analysis later on and saying, this 389 00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:38,519 is just mechanical sounds. It's not person's voice. That could hear someone speaking, 390 00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:44,039 but it's produced my machine. Was that from the actual story I just 391 00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:47,359 made up from the movie I can't remember? Well, it was there was 392 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,119 a a so called mister Apple, a po L that was in contact with 393 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,640 a woman named Jay Perrow. Uh. It was the implication is that some 394 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:02,640 of these contacts were actually more channeling or whatever. And Keel said when he 395 00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:06,759 was actually talking to some of the contact e's on the phone, they would 396 00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:10,359 say, well so and so is here, and supposedly they'd be handing the 397 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,839 phone to the the entity, but he believed that they are actually that the 398 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,440 voice was actually coming through the contact EVE and talking to him on the phone. 399 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:25,519 So there were conversations like that with mister Apple, who probably didn't really 400 00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:29,319 exist. Uh it was. Uh. There there's a couple of books uh 401 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:36,759 uh the Big Big Breakthrough in the Big Blackout, which are our document our 402 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,960 documents that Keel never published that you can get from John Keel dot com. 403 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:47,519 Uh by Doug Skinner, And this is a whole area where uh uh, 404 00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:51,160 Keel seemed to be really buying into and I know, Bill, those these 405 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,079 these these books where he was buying into these uh these messages, but he 406 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,319 wasn't talking to any of the people himself. These were all coming through all 407 00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:04,480 these different contact ees, and there seemed a point where he was really freaking 408 00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:08,839 out. But if you read the Eighth Tower, there's a point in there 409 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,200 what he says. He writes how he was embarrassed and how he was believing 410 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:16,880 these messages. He'd be talking to a contact ee out in the middle of 411 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,599 the woods, channeling whatever ashtarre from the Great Beyond, and it was all 412 00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:27,240 deception. It was all nonsense, the trickster, if you will. So 413 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:34,200 there was a they did take elements and in fact with the film, if 414 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,400 you get the DVD and you look at some of the extras, you see 415 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:42,599 where they tried to get more of the book into the movie, but certain 416 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,480 scenes were just deleted. So, and I've got a chance to talk to 417 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:52,240 the screenwriter, Richard had him and I can talk about that a little bit 418 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:57,200 later if you want to. Yes, sir, I think this is a 419 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,400 good question for you. Were Keel's thoughts about alter tryst Well developed before his 420 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:07,599 Mothman investigations or were they a consequence of them. I don't I don't remember 421 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:12,720 them being part of the Operation Trojan Horse book. Were they Steve Well, 422 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,920 I think he talked about I don't remember if he used the term altraterrestrial, 423 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,759 but he did talk about transmogrifications. One of my favorite words of all time, 424 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:25,119 transmogriifications of energy. You know. The only other place I've ever seen 425 00:33:25,119 --> 00:33:30,039 that is in Kelvin and Hobbes comic strips. But that's a that's an aside. 426 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:37,000 But he uh. I think the the idea of it was developed before 427 00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:40,559 the Mothman prophecies, although I'm not sure which what terms he used then Well, 428 00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:44,240 and interestingly enough, I think that he coined that. He didn't coin 429 00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:46,839 that phrase. He popularized it, but I think he really got it wasn't 430 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,000 from Ivan Sanderson, he said Ivan Sanderson. He also said he used it 431 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,480 as kind of a literary device because he wanted to get people away from the 432 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:59,640 notion that these things all had to be extraterrestrial. You know, he really 433 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:05,279 thought the were something to do with a natural condition of the planet, something 434 00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:12,719 that Andy said a few minutes ago really dovetails nicely with this question about ultraterrestrials, 435 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:16,320 because I mean half of the Offman Prophecies book was edited out and then 436 00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:21,599 was republished as the Eighth Power. So really those two books are supposed to 437 00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:24,559 be the same, but the editors, the Faceless editors, took out a 438 00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:30,760 good chunk of that. Where he really goes into the extraterrestrial are the ultra 439 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,800 terrestrial hypothesis, and he talks about transmogrifications of energy, and I think one 440 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,679 of the analogies I really like for you know what happened in Point Pleasant as 441 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,239 well as other window type areas, is that it's almost like a radio frequency. 442 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:49,360 You know, if you're on these things are able to slip through the 443 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,280 cracks when the radio dial is set to a particular frequency, and then they 444 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:59,840 can manifest, but otherwise they really can't. And he really goes into that 445 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:02,320 in depth in the Eighth Tower. So I know we're supposed to be talking 446 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,960 about the Mothman prophecies. That's sort of been in the Mothman Prophecies. Yeah, 447 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,480 definitely bring it up the because it should be one one book together. 448 00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:15,480 Certain im I must read it even more what you're saying there, because that's 449 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,880 again, as I say, that's the ultra stressful idea is something I've I 450 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,079 kind of hypothesize myself sometime ago that that kind of thing might be going on. 451 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:27,119 But to read and hear some other people thinking on those similar lines, 452 00:35:27,159 --> 00:35:29,280 it was like, yeah, this really makes sense and that I need to 453 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,559 dig it to that one as well. But yeah, the two books belong 454 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:35,239 together because it's almost, if you like, the mothing propheies is the story, 455 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,800 the eighth time material is the background to the story. It's like, 456 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,280 why we got to this point of of a belief idea that these things are 457 00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:45,920 essentially from here, but an alternative kind of version of here, like rather 458 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:52,199 than being from some far away planet. Yeah, and I learned way too 459 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:57,880 much about radio frequencies from that book, more than I ever want the super 460 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:04,119 spectrum. Yes, yeah, yeah, for sure. So we do have 461 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:09,920 to take a quick commercial break. And while we are at break, I 462 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,280 want you guys to think about who your favorite character from the entire book was, 463 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,880 and I will give you mine when we come back from the commercial deal. 464 00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:30,719 All right, here's your commercial time. Are you haunted by legal troubles 465 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,360 that just won't vanish. Do you suspect foul play beyond the natural realm? 466 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,440 Hi, I'm Susan Graves, your paranormal attorney. If you're dealing with ghostly 467 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:45,039 contracts, spooky disputes, or supernatural misdemeanors, I'm here to help. Don't 468 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:49,079 let your legal issues haunt you. Call me the lawyer who isn't afraid of 469 00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:52,480 what goes bump in the night. Remember when the law gets paranormal. You 470 00:36:52,519 --> 00:37:00,679 need a lawyer with spirit. Call me today for free consultation. Susan Graves 471 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:08,960 fighting for your rights, even from the other side, and we're back. 472 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:19,480 So my favorite character from the entire book is the man who stole the pen. 473 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:29,440 It is the most pointless thing and that is fascinating to me and I 474 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,599 think of so I always try to put myself into their shoes. You know, 475 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,480 if I was an ultraterrestrial, what would I do? And I would 476 00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:45,840 do random stuff to confuse or annoy people. So that was why that character 477 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,960 I loved him so much. And it's also a good thing to have some 478 00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:55,119 of those clicking pens, so that if you are visited by men and black, 479 00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:59,559 just throw some pens at them and they'll be distracted and they won't be 480 00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:02,719 asking you any more questions, just trying to compensate your photographs. But were 481 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:08,000 there any characters that really stood out to any of you guys? Oh? 482 00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:13,599 Yeah, I got one, But you guys go ahead, you bube h. 483 00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:19,000 You know, I've been thinking about this for a while and I'm drawing 484 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,400 a blank. So if you guys can jump in, maybe work better. 485 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:28,719 Let it sly. The guy from Duncan Falls, John he uh, he 486 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,119 was an elderly gentleman that couldn't sleep sometimes, so he'd go out and and 487 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:37,719 this is in Ohio and he's uh, he would wander around and he saw 488 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,679 this strange looking l shaped building next to a school that he'd never seen before. 489 00:38:43,199 --> 00:38:46,480 And and so as he approaches it, here's a voice coming from it 490 00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:52,400 and to welcome him him in, I think, And it was freaked him 491 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,480 out, so he started to he went, he went back home and he 492 00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:58,599 got his gun, and uh, he came back and it was gone, 493 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:00,320 and he called the police. Said, of course that you thought he's an 494 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,360 old guy, doesn't know what he's talking about. When when John Keel talked 495 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,920 to me, he said that Leonard told him the story with no embellishments or 496 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:16,239 whatever. But he said, he said, I didn't exactly run, but 497 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,559 I walked pretty fast going away from the building, and that that's my favorite 498 00:39:21,639 --> 00:39:25,239 character in the mark Man Prophecies. Well, for me, i'd actually deviated 499 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,760 over to the movie and the scene where John Clyme meets the former professor who's 500 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,119 strange things and he starts to tell him what's happened to him, and there's 501 00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:37,719 one line that really it gave me chills. It's always stuck with me, 502 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,239 you know, quite quick to be about other this kind of stuff. Is 503 00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:45,400 the line that you noticed them and they noticed that you noticed them. It's 504 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,239 like GIF you shivers, and I think about that, but I know that's 505 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,840 not of the real events, but that scene I think crystallized for me the 506 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,199 slightly more sinister side of this. The film itself had been a strange events. 507 00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:00,239 Obviously, it was like weirds sightings, but then it took a from 508 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,760 angle and that scenes like they noticed you noticed them, and now they know 509 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,800 you're you're noticing them and they don't like that. That was a kind of 510 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:08,840 vibe it gave me, and I thought that was really good. It was 511 00:40:09,079 --> 00:40:14,199 a nice little scene and said for me that bit, particularly of the movie 512 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,280 rather than the books and saying it's already didn't get a chance to But to 513 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,159 me, that crystallized that notion of there's something more going on here that maybe 514 00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:29,159 even deeper. Those scenes with Richard Gear and Alan Bates were phenomenal because played 515 00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:34,880 doctor Leak heel spelled backwards. And my favorite exchange is when you know, 516 00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:37,559 Richard Gear was really good in this in this film, of course Bates was 517 00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:42,679 too, but uh, he's at a point where Bates is telling him all 518 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,880 these things had happened to him, and Richard Gear you could tell it's just 519 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,159 towards the end of the movie because it has wits end, and he said, 520 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,400 didn't you need to know? And Alan Bates has this kind of quizzical 521 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,360 look on his face and he cocks his head a little bit and he says, 522 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,880 we're not allowed to know, and that that's chili. Also, I 523 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:06,159 have something like that written down as my favorite quote from the book. Something's 524 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,920 something wants us to not understand this phenomenon in his true purpose, right. 525 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,800 I love the exchanges between those two in the movie, you know, And 526 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:22,519 my favorite part that he talks about is when they're in Chicago the first time, 527 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:29,320 and they're looking up and Bates points up to the window washer and he 528 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,880 says, that window washer up there. From where he's standing, he can 529 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,119 see a little further down the road. But I think my favorite character in 530 00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:43,760 the movie is Gordon Smallwood bar None. I just loved the way that Will 531 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,840 Patton just that role. He did a fantastic job. And my favorite line 532 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:54,360 from the movie is when he says and then I hear this weird howl coming 533 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,599 out of the sink and he's just losing his mind. I love that. 534 00:41:59,679 --> 00:42:01,960 But I've had to really think hard about this, guys in terms of my 535 00:42:02,039 --> 00:42:06,599 favorite character from the book, and I think it's got to be Ja Perrol, 536 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,480 And for me, it's Jay Peril because she's on the Long Island end 537 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,280 of things, which really gets lost when we talk about Mothman. People don't 538 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,639 really go in depth about that. But she was responsible for a lot of 539 00:42:19,679 --> 00:42:22,760 the channel the prophecies that Keel was receiving, whether they were legitimate or not, 540 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,199 and she's been kind of an enigma because she kind of fell off the 541 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,880 radar after the Mothman Prophecies book, and nobody seems to know what happened to 542 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:36,119 her or anything about her, And I find that to be really fascinating. 543 00:42:37,679 --> 00:42:42,360 There's a missions one to find and you get more about Jay Perrow. I 544 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,119 forget what her real name was, but from the big breakthrough in the Big 545 00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:52,519 Blackout, and you get more from it. And Keel's thinking this is in 546 00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:55,320 the midst of when he's buying into some of these messages and so forth. 547 00:42:55,599 --> 00:43:00,440 But you can see he keeps thinking about Jay Peril. For example, he 548 00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:02,599 said, you know, she is she hoaxing this? You know, is 549 00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:07,639 she making this up with anything? But she there's certain things that she knows 550 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:10,039 she couldn't possibly know, you know, So you get you get more into 551 00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:15,599 the thinking process of Keel in those books than you do in the Mothman Prophecy. 552 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,519 And she could very well have been duped just like he was. I'm 553 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:22,800 sure, just like a lot of you know, us researchers can. When 554 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,480 we get closer to this phenomena, it really starts toying with us. That 555 00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:30,840 trickster thing or that reflexivity or whatever it might be that goes on along the 556 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,840 lines of the super spectrum that we just don't understand, really begins toying with 557 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,800 us. And there's another one that Steve mentioned, the Big Breakthrough in the 558 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,920 Big Blackout. There's one that came out a couple of years ago, maybe 559 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,079 a year year and a half ago, called the Big Bamboozle. And in 560 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:50,679 that one there are two or three articles written by j Perrow and they're fascinating. 561 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,480 Is that the one about Mount Misery? Yes, okay, Mount Mount 562 00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:58,960 Misery, New York. Long Island, I think where a lot of weird 563 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,360 stuff was a lot of weird stuff was going on, Like you said, 564 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:05,280 Bill on Long Island, whatever Keel was, you know, it's almost like 565 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,400 he was a lightning rod for some of the stuff. All that a Native 566 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:14,159 American curse too. Yeah, there you go. I think that comes back 567 00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:16,079 the whole idea of he's noticed them, he's talking about them, so they've 568 00:44:16,119 --> 00:44:19,920 noticed him talking about them, and they're going to give closer eyes. So 569 00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:22,760 yeah, the idea of becoming almost like a mathet for these kind of events 570 00:44:22,119 --> 00:44:25,920 I'm talked about, the idea that sort of in that other realm world, 571 00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:29,920 if you are more attuned to it, you're like a beacon of light. 572 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,920 It's visible to them. They think this, what's this person doing? And 573 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,199 they come towards you. The more you involve, the more you draw them 574 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:44,039 to you. And you know, I make mation of the film. My 575 00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:47,000 first reaction to it was a bit negative because you know, I'd read the 576 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,400 book so many times and I wanted more of the book in there. I 577 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,639 wanted more of the Men in Black. And of course soon after I thought, 578 00:44:53,679 --> 00:44:57,880 well, you know, they can't do the classic Men in Black because 579 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,480 they've already done two silly films as comedies. It's a minimal add and people 580 00:45:01,519 --> 00:45:05,880 are just going to associate it with that. But as time was going on, 581 00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:08,079 I love the film as much as Bill does. And you know, 582 00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:14,039 Andy Mercer is a composer, and so I want to mention the soundtrack to 583 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:19,719 The mothmand Prophecies, Tom and Andy is phenomenal. Andy does a lot of 584 00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:22,039 would you call it dark ambient? Is that correct? Yes? Yes, 585 00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:25,880 and that's kind of what the Moth Band Prophecies we call that dark ambient, 586 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,480 and it just fits the film so well. Yes, it was for good 587 00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:34,639 music. I remember that. Yeah, it was quite subtly. He did 588 00:45:34,679 --> 00:45:37,320 have a non sort of flow of unwelderness to it sometimes what was writting in 589 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:44,599 music. Yeah, So one of the things that kept like screaming from the 590 00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:49,519 back of my mind as I'm reading this, or other things like it is 591 00:45:49,840 --> 00:46:00,199 the communication with the Trickster entities and Andy, I kind of wonder, do 592 00:46:00,199 --> 00:46:05,000 you know what you're talking to? Because I'm not a sensitive person at all. 593 00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:10,119 I don't communicate with anything other than living humans. Well, I've certainly 594 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,480 over the years come to a very firm belief that what you talk to, 595 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:22,000 how it presents itself is according to what your expectations are, what you're experiencing, 596 00:46:22,039 --> 00:46:24,679 what you believe them to be. I don't think these things have an 597 00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:30,119 identity of their own. They just assume what works for you, whether it's 598 00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:34,159 something that is for your personal history or a personal belief system, or something 599 00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:37,000 greater from your own cultural background, if you like. But that's I've become 600 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,760 more and more convinced that these things exist, but they don't have an identity. 601 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,159 You're not talking to, you know, the old thing. I'm afraid 602 00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:46,400 perhaps not in American the comparable TV shows that this goes as a demon. 603 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,800 Really it's highly to be something else. I don't think you'll all be a 604 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,960 demon if you want it to be, because that's your you're framing it. 605 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:59,719 But the things themselves have no particular identity. It's just they will communicate in 606 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,159 a way that works for you. Whether they're giving a direct information of anything 607 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:07,400 particular, I don't know, but certainly that's how I always think of it. 608 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,480 And so when you have something like Mothwing, particularly the identity kind of 609 00:47:12,559 --> 00:47:16,280 forms around the phenomena, kind of from descriptions of his idea of the mothman 610 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,800 or a creature of that kind of form. I think it almost began, 611 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,800 I think took that form because it was being talked about in that sense as 612 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:29,000 a descriptive form, if you like, what people were seeing experiencing, and 613 00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:32,920 I think maybe even refined itself even further based on those reports, not that 614 00:47:34,039 --> 00:47:37,920 it was read the newspaper like that, but how people were reacting to relating 615 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,719 to this strange phenomena. And that's pretty much the way John Keel described this 616 00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:49,000 mister apple Apol again that he never met but only talked through through channelers or 617 00:47:49,039 --> 00:47:52,440 whatever over the phone. It's like he had no identity and he just kind 618 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:59,039 of faded away, and he said he talked to this whatever for hours sometimes. 619 00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:02,599 By the way, I've got to show off my shirt here, through 620 00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:13,079 the rules. Yes, okay, okay, we're done with that. You 621 00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:19,119 know, when I was reading Bill's book, had brought home to me that 622 00:48:19,559 --> 00:48:22,800 I didn't meet a survivor of the bridge collapse. And his name was Bill 623 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,880 Edmondson, and I met him in twenty seventeen at the fifty year remembrance ceremony. 624 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,360 He was driving a semi across the bridge when it went down, And 625 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:35,239 unlike the film when Richard Gear had all kinds of time to warn people off 626 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,119 the bridge, this happened about thirty to forty seconds. He went in the 627 00:48:38,119 --> 00:48:45,320 water. He was forced through the passenger window right arm first. It's twenty 628 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,679 degrees out, it's freezing. He gets out of the truck, comes to 629 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,920 the surface and he grabs onto some of the material had been hauling, and 630 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,280 a tugbook captain saw him and pull him up out of the water. They 631 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,719 got him to the hospital right away. There's an article on him in the 632 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:07,679 Markeda Museum. So that that's another thing that just brought all that even closer 633 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:12,440 to home, hearing a personal, one on one experience about that tragic night. 634 00:49:15,559 --> 00:49:20,599 Yes, we interviewed eleven people for bridging the tragedy. At least six 635 00:49:20,639 --> 00:49:25,360 of them talked about that semi floating down the river and seeing the presence floating 636 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:30,920 in the river and how profound and powerful those images were. Yes, from 637 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,440 the movie, I was the representation Bridge speaking in a movie. I was 638 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,360 incuse me New York two years ago and we happened to get tickets for laure 639 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:44,119 Lni doing a solo show, which we watched and enjoyed, and we literally 640 00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:45,239 see him up by the front that you did come off the stage at the 641 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,719 end was talking to some of the audience who hoped to get in and ask 642 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,960 about mofem but unfortunately and we didn't get a chance. But that was quite 643 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,320 interesting experience, very good action. Seeing that one stage was brilliant. But 644 00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,960 yeah, it's a shame to get a chance to speak to So. Did 645 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:07,760 any of you see the Hallier series. I've seen. I've seen both seasons 646 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,039 of it. I thought it was very well done. I really enjoyed it. 647 00:50:13,079 --> 00:50:15,800 Towards the end of it, I think it got scripted and maybe was 648 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,559 scripted throughout maybe part of it anyhow, But the very beginning of it, 649 00:50:19,639 --> 00:50:23,159 in maybe the first half a dozen episodes, I found really very riveting and 650 00:50:23,199 --> 00:50:29,559 there was some really interesting correlations and things that they talked about, and that 651 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,760 dovetail really very well with with Keel's books. It was very well done. 652 00:50:36,119 --> 00:50:39,159 I can't help but think that possibly the whole thing may have started out with 653 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,599 a hoax that they followed up on. I mean, and it was right, 654 00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:46,960 you know, they did the right thing by by investigating and looking into 655 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:52,480 it. I'm just not sure. I just don't know how much substance there 656 00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:59,239 was behind the original events that pulled them in. And when they get into 657 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:04,039 the injured Cole stuff, I think, I'm sorry, but Edward called does 658 00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:07,559 not exist. Maybe he did briefly at one time. Maybe there was some 659 00:51:07,639 --> 00:51:10,920 kind of hoaks going on, but I don't know what. Somebody is pulling 660 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,599 some strings and I don't think they are. I don't think there. I 661 00:51:14,599 --> 00:51:19,639 don't think the Hellure people have hoaxed anything. I think they have gone ahead 662 00:51:19,679 --> 00:51:25,239 and trying to unravel mysteries. And but yeah, it's it was very well 663 00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:30,119 done. And I talked to Seth Bridlove who does small Town Monsters, and 664 00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:35,880 he was very impressed with their their editing and their production and so forth. 665 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,079 I agree it was very well made, editing and put together. I have 666 00:51:39,119 --> 00:51:44,280 similar thoughts to Steve, I think I think they were hoapes. I think 667 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,360 they kind of figured out going along during the series. They'd been hoped, 668 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,000 but started to keep going with the progress they got so far with already. 669 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,639 But I think that moment when they realized that the original communication had come from 670 00:51:53,639 --> 00:51:57,320 nowhere near where it's supposed to come from, when game form somewhere near to 671 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,599 where it was Greg was living at the time, I thought, that's bringing 672 00:52:00,679 --> 00:52:02,519 two big alarm belts. So this sounds like they're being duked here. But 673 00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:06,480 because they're so invested in the program that carried on going on with it. 674 00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:08,039 I could be wrong, but he just felt to me that it got to 675 00:52:08,079 --> 00:52:12,199 a point where it started to feel it was drifting a little bit Citta the 676 00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:14,480 second So it's kind of drifted a little bit too much, and I think 677 00:52:14,639 --> 00:52:16,519 they were trying to sort of fill time and bringing things that injury cold into 678 00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:22,800 It was kind of stretching a little bit for me, and I quite enjoyed 679 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,760 it. Greg doesn't like me. We've had an altercation once on Facebook and 680 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:30,159 I've been blocked by him completely, So nothing to do with his program, 681 00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:32,679 but something completely unrelated. But yes, so my views a little tainted by 682 00:52:32,679 --> 00:52:37,880 that experience, I have to say so, if you haven't seen The Unbinding 683 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,920 yet, it's definitely worth watching. I thought it was very well done, 684 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:49,679 it's very interesting, and it's it's it's not as sensationalized as hell. You're 685 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:57,280 was right, I'll check that out. It's it's definitely worth watching. This 686 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,280 is all completely foreign to me. I feel like I have a look stuff 687 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:06,360 I have to watch now. I was going to mention earlier that Susie and 688 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,360 I are not experiencers. I forget what Susie has a term for that. 689 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:20,159 What is it? A paranormal Yeah, that's a paranormal repellent without without an 690 00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:22,960 aerosol. It's just natural. Find it just amazing. We used to particularly, 691 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,239 I mean, you've been in these for a few years now. Somebody 692 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,679 experiences. I had that one weird experience with a television set, which I 693 00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:36,440 will not repeat, and I had one weird experience with a television set, 694 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,960 to which I think is weird. Both of us are. One weird experience 695 00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:46,440 was with the TV. Maybe we should just give somebody else the remote and 696 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:51,000 not touch it. You know now that you're mentioning TVs and my wife just 697 00:53:51,079 --> 00:53:53,519 walked into the room. She's not going to come on camera though, but 698 00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:59,440 she was in the process of we're working on our next book right now, 699 00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:04,320 and she was transcribing one of the interviews and she had it on the YouTube 700 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,719 up on the TV set that we have mounted on our wall, and as 701 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:14,280 it was getting to a particularly interesting part of the interview, the TV just 702 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,559 died. I mean it totally died. And I guess it was probably eight 703 00:54:17,599 --> 00:54:20,960 or nine years old. I didn't realize we'd had it for that long, 704 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,960 but it just poof. It just went right. During that transcription session, 705 00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:28,639 well, I told my TV experience where I walked into the room and it 706 00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:32,679 turned on was slipping through channels to a guy that interviewed me at the Mothman 707 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:38,719 Museum yesterday, and he said he knew a guy they had kind of a 708 00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:45,119 similar experience in a motel across the river. And it turned out it was 709 00:54:45,159 --> 00:54:47,639 the same motel that we were both in, not the same room. But 710 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:52,960 I thought, WHOA, Okay, maybe I'm not crazy, but I still 711 00:54:52,039 --> 00:54:54,679 could be crazy. I just want to want to make that clear you might 712 00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:00,239 be. So this is what was your TV experience. Then it was gone 713 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:05,239 out to the T and T area north of Point Pleasant alone at night to 714 00:55:06,039 --> 00:55:07,920 impress the babes. You know. I wanted to be able to tell that 715 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:09,960 the ladies that, hey, you know, I'm very, very brave guy. 716 00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:14,639 So I came back. I was on a route sixty two experienced a 717 00:55:14,639 --> 00:55:17,480 couple flashes of light, like a couple of strobes, and I thought, 718 00:55:17,519 --> 00:55:21,239 that's weird. Didn't have the presence of mind to think where it was on 719 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,719 the road, and so I went back across the river, went to my 720 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:28,880 motel and opened up the door, and the TV set turned on by itself 721 00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:32,519 and started flipping steadily through stations, just like a blur. And I thought, 722 00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:37,559 no, this doesn't happen to me, it happens to other people. 723 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,440 And so I unployed the thing and went to bed. And then the next 724 00:55:40,519 --> 00:55:45,760 year there was another similar experience, not quite the same, in the room 725 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,079 next to it, with a couple of friends. And then a few years 726 00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:53,360 later two couples were having some weird thing going on with their TV and something 727 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,840 flew off the table during them off band festival. So all in this one 728 00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,719 corner of the motel, and the way I always end this is that if 729 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:06,400 I brought something back with me from the TNT. Fortunately he's still there flipping 730 00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:15,840 channels because he never came home with me. And TV experience mine was when 731 00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:21,239 I was having those nightmares that turned out to be about my great grandmother. 732 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:29,760 Someone had suggested like talking to her and setting boundaries and like telling her to 733 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,880 leave me alone. So I did that, and then I get up to 734 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:37,159 walk out of the room and I walk past my dresser, which had my 735 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:42,639 TV on it at the time, and that as I'm walking by, right 736 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,800 after I walked by, the TV flew off the dresser. You're blowing and 737 00:56:47,039 --> 00:56:52,400 I had a runner underneath it and that was still there. It was just 738 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:57,559 the TV. So much like Steve just turned that TV off, I took 739 00:56:57,599 --> 00:57:01,719 that TV and put it in the closet shades of the last scene in the 740 00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,920 movie Poltergeist. Right. Yes, there's both more poultar, guized space and 741 00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,239 anything else. Those experiences definitely very strange. Well, I've had too many 742 00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,119 to list. Have been doing ghost hunting for twenty odd years, so I've 743 00:57:13,119 --> 00:57:15,320 had lots of weird experiences. What about you, Bill, anything particular. 744 00:57:16,559 --> 00:57:22,519 Yeah, you know something that we talked about earlier when Steve mentioned route seventy 745 00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:24,719 seven. We were talking about injured cold and some of the things that had 746 00:57:24,719 --> 00:57:30,000 happened on that route. So we've covered a lot of ground tonight. But 747 00:57:30,119 --> 00:57:34,119 one of the things that I was thinking with this whole trickster element that kind 748 00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:38,039 of gets involved with those of us that investigate this strange stuff. So there 749 00:57:38,039 --> 00:57:44,480 has been the alleged Chicago Chicago land mothman flap that's been going on off and 750 00:57:44,519 --> 00:57:50,320 on for ten fifteen years, and Jackie and I first got involved with investigating 751 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,639 it with the Illinois State Moffon Director Sam Moronto. But we quickly found some 752 00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:59,840 things that we just didn't They didn't jibe with us, so we didn't feel 753 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:05,199 that it was a horribly legitimate type thing that was going on in Chicagoland area, 754 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,760 which would bummed us out because we lived sixty miles from downtown Chicago, 755 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,519 so it was right here. So what we did do is we went to 756 00:58:12,599 --> 00:58:15,320 Thatcher Woods, which is writ in suburban Chicago. We did a ghost box 757 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:20,719 session there and we got some data that really correlated with some of the stuff 758 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,360 in Point Pleasant. So on our next trip that we took to Point Pleasant, 759 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:29,679 Jackie and a lady that was with her at the time. They did 760 00:58:29,679 --> 00:58:32,159 a ghost box session and it mentioned seventy seven, and we had a lot 761 00:58:32,159 --> 00:58:37,400 of inverse numbers like thirteen's and thirty ones. Thirty ones were very prominent in 762 00:58:37,519 --> 00:58:43,920 Chicago Land and the Mothman reports there. Thirteen's were very prominent in Point Pleasant. 763 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,519 But they used the ghost box and it said a place to go Visit 764 00:58:47,719 --> 00:58:51,920 was one of the signals that got. So they went to Route seventy seven 765 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,840 and then that they got they did a ghost box session there and that took 766 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:59,880 them back to to ndy Way, the point right there in Point Pleasant where 767 00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:04,079 the two rivers come together where cornstock is buried. And we got all kinds 768 00:59:04,119 --> 00:59:09,119 of really interesting information from all the different sites that we did these sessions at 769 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:14,280 that led us to believe that either we were being guided along or we were 770 00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,960 being messed with, or a combination of home. So that whole trickster thing 771 00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,760 that goes on. I think with all these investigations, I just really think 772 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:24,639 that a lot of this stuff is over our heads. We kind of co 773 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:29,599 create it to a certain degree, and it's mirrored back by whatever is out 774 00:59:29,599 --> 00:59:34,039 there that's that's giving us the signal back in return. Yes, I kind 775 00:59:34,039 --> 00:59:36,480 of almost like a two way flow of theology of these things forming around what 776 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,119 we expect. What about Kristen of anybody? We other examples of Mothmann actually 777 00:59:40,199 --> 00:59:45,599 definitely appearing occurring in other parts of America or the world, even the really 778 00:59:45,679 --> 00:59:49,800 real possible examples. I about the Chicago one there, but there are other 779 00:59:50,199 --> 00:59:53,599 definite examples of what could be the same phenomena elsewhere. Well, there is 780 00:59:53,639 --> 00:59:59,599 a similar one in the Bridgewater Triangle. I believe it was seventy one, 781 01:00:00,159 --> 01:00:05,079 and it was a police officer that spotted him. He was on his way 782 01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:12,239 home and he got to an intersection. Is this keel making an appearance? 783 01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:19,199 Willis? Willis? Oh, sorry, I got distracted by a cap. 784 01:00:20,599 --> 01:00:23,880 The police officer was on his way home and he was coming to an intersection 785 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:30,320 and he saw a figure about six feet tall. Uh. He thought it 786 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:35,119 was a hitchhiker, and he pulled his car up a little bit closer, 787 01:00:36,119 --> 01:00:42,000 and as he did that, wings just erupted from its back and it flew 788 01:00:42,159 --> 01:00:45,239 straight up into the air. No flapping of the wings at all, just 789 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,559 you know, the wings came out and it went straight up and he went 790 01:00:51,039 --> 01:00:53,800 he was like so taken by it. He went back to the police station 791 01:00:53,920 --> 01:01:00,760 and reported it, which did not go well for him. Yeah, but 792 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,960 it was not like so in the area. There's thunderbird sightings, there's tero 793 01:01:05,039 --> 01:01:08,039 dactyl sightings, but that was a winged humanoid sighting. He thought it was 794 01:01:08,079 --> 01:01:15,440 a man at first, but there's not He didn't report it having red eyes. 795 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:20,840 You know, There's been no chasing cars or anything like that, but 796 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:25,199 the physical description similar there. And I know around I don't know a lot 797 01:01:25,239 --> 01:01:30,000 about it, but I know around Chernobyl there have also been some sting. 798 01:01:31,199 --> 01:01:34,519 That's what I was going to mention. I'd heard that as well, that 799 01:01:34,639 --> 01:01:37,599 this sort of Again, it's one of those things. Is the phenomena starting 800 01:01:37,639 --> 01:01:42,920 to form an appear in a way that correlates with people's beliefs and ideas, 801 01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,920 or is this is the same phenomenal it self appearing in different parts of But 802 01:01:46,039 --> 01:01:51,119 yes, Chernobyl's one i'd heard of before that has seen variety of strange phenomena. 803 01:01:51,159 --> 01:01:53,800 And then whether it's to do with mutated living animals obviously mutation for the 804 01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,840 radiation, or it is more of a panormal entity, I don't know, 805 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,760 but I've certainly heard of that one before. Well, there are many, 806 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,679 and of course John Feels just mentioned the Element of Cornwall. Yes, that's 807 01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:10,119 that's one. Yeah, very similar but not identical Keel talks about. And 808 01:02:10,239 --> 01:02:14,280 there's the uh I think it might be the second chapter in the book, 809 01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:19,280 the Flutter of Black Wings or or whatever, where he goes through a whole 810 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:23,840 array of winged whatever wing wing weirdos they call him sometimes, and they're not 811 01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:28,000 not mothband per se. But you know, there was the Houston batman, 812 01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:32,519 the Wisconsin man bat and all kinds of bizarre things. There's only one report 813 01:02:32,639 --> 01:02:37,679 I know that was very similar to I'm going to say my mothband here in 814 01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:43,199 Point Pleasant, and that is almost three years earlier to the day that the 815 01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:47,559 scarberries and mallets were chased by this wing creature uh. In Kent, England, 816 01:02:47,559 --> 01:02:52,239 I think they call it the Saltwood Horror. A group of students were 817 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,880 coming back from a dance. They saw a light come down behind a grove 818 01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,679 of trees and it disappeared. Then the light reappeared and disappeared, and then 819 01:03:00,719 --> 01:03:07,400 they saw this uh, six seven foot tall sort of a humanoid creature didn't 820 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,480 seem to have a head. It kind of shoveled along like the mouthman, 821 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:15,039 bat like wings, and it did not have the red eyes. But that's 822 01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:21,239 the closest I've ever heard of a something like the Mothman. It's very interesting 823 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:27,239 because Paul Devereaux calls it one of one of the proto entities where the light 824 01:03:27,519 --> 01:03:32,480 or the craft or whatever it is seems to be inseparable or morphed into the 825 01:03:32,639 --> 01:03:36,920 entity. Yes, and so, but that's the like they say, the 826 01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:42,760 term mothman is thrown around quite a bit. If Keel was onto something and 827 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:47,599 the Mothman prophecies, if these were truly transmorgorifications, if they're they're paraphysical, 828 01:03:49,199 --> 01:03:52,000 he was. He became less and less enamored with whether or not the craft 829 01:03:52,039 --> 01:03:55,719 had portholes, or or what it would look like, or what the creature 830 01:03:55,760 --> 01:04:00,880 looked like. He wanted to understand the cosmic mechanism behind these things. And 831 01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:08,000 he also discovered that people that witnessed creatures or UFOs would suffer from the same 832 01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:14,480 physical ailments thirst, muscle ache, and even Connie Carpenter, one of the 833 01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,719 original mark Man witnesses, did not see a ufo or a light, but 834 01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:23,239 she received conjunctive items that I burn when she saw the marth Man in broad 835 01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:29,199 daylight. So I just like I say, hey, marth Man, he's 836 01:04:29,239 --> 01:04:30,760 here in Point Pleasant. I know because I know where his statue is. 837 01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,320 So don't don't mess with my marth Man. Goutle of thoughts. Actually mean, 838 01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,239 first of all, I'll just come back from coolwol on enough on holiday 839 01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,360 for very good. I didn't see the almun I'm afraid, but there is. 840 01:04:41,679 --> 01:04:45,400 I think that's one thing you said about the eyes is a phenomena seems 841 01:04:45,559 --> 01:04:47,599 almost radiation like seems to be linked to this film as well. So we 842 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:51,840 brings you back about Chernobyl of course been a highly radiated area, so maybe 843 01:04:53,519 --> 01:04:56,400 the guests, top of my head, they're drawn to the radiation. Maybe, 844 01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,800 so you get these forms and creatures appearing animals, energy animals what they 845 01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,920 want to call them, are focusing around as a radiation because you can talk 846 01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:09,639 about the idea of these things appening near nuclear science as well nuclear basis. 847 01:05:09,639 --> 01:05:14,559 So maybe there was a correlation there with the whole power energy nuclear connection that 848 01:05:14,599 --> 01:05:16,960 may be connected with them. Again obviously with the T and T area, 849 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,480 I mean it's not nuclear, but of course there's a lot of the two 850 01:05:19,599 --> 01:05:24,719 waste there as well, So maybe there's some kind of almost like earth connection, 851 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,320 if you like. The alledge of these things are perhaps trying to guard 852 01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,000 the land or look after or warn of danger, which of course these just 853 01:05:30,119 --> 01:05:35,519 the bridge collapse. That there are rumors that there was some nuclear activity or 854 01:05:35,639 --> 01:05:39,840 going on in the tn T area. I have no idea if there's any 855 01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:44,760 substance to them or whatever. Speaking of the mt area, the last time 856 01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:46,719 we were out there, Steve, for the Mothman Festival, you know, 857 01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,599 we had Michael Hacker with us, who's the narrator of a lot of John 858 01:05:49,679 --> 01:05:55,320 Keel and Brad Stegger compilation works, as well as Jacques Bealle, and we 859 01:05:55,400 --> 01:06:00,920 took him out to the TNT and Jackie and Michael and I were driving through. 860 01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:05,239 When we came back from that, Jackie's left ear was bleeding. Oh 861 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:10,519 my god, I had a minor case of conjunctivitis, which just blew our 862 01:06:10,559 --> 01:06:13,280 minds. And by the way, Jackie says to say hello, Steve, 863 01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,960 she heard your voice. She says that word. I said, yes, 864 01:06:16,079 --> 01:06:19,440 Hi, Jackie. The Night of the Bleeding Ear is one of the chapters 865 01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:24,000 in the mock Man Prophecies, right right, right, So One of the 866 01:06:24,039 --> 01:06:30,159 most things that I found the least believable in this book was when Keel talks 867 01:06:30,199 --> 01:06:44,280 about male UFO witnesses, and it was these symptoms after the comic from Okay, 868 01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:49,000 fine, that's that's what Mirry. Guys need to have that excuse in 869 01:06:49,079 --> 01:06:54,039 back of their head. I guess, I mean I might have flown in 870 01:06:54,039 --> 01:07:01,320 the sixties. I mean, people are going to want to read The Mark 871 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:08,679 Man Propose is now to find out about the cosmic Collap'll tell you, yes, 872 01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:13,400 yes, ways to avoid because I was just thinking again about the hour 873 01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:15,960 Man of Cornwall. Of course, the hour Man or mothbed are going to 874 01:07:15,039 --> 01:07:19,000 look pretty similar, aren't they look could be that kind of similar phenomena. 875 01:07:19,039 --> 01:07:23,519 Again. I've just a little I've been working on for a number of years 876 01:07:23,519 --> 01:07:28,920 and anywhere near finishing yet. Is a collection of strange high strangers occurrences in 877 01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:32,280 main sort of Victorian times eighteens up to the nineteen thirties. I read a 878 01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,760 book on basically spells and chants from that sort of period of Victorian times in 879 01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,880 the nineteen thirties, and I kind of follow up one was this collection of 880 01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:44,000 weird tales of strange experiences and there's one particular one that sticks in my mind 881 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,199 where we talk about mothman. Or is one example up in the antibrities in 882 01:07:47,199 --> 01:07:51,440 Scotland where fishermen had gone out, this is the eighteen nineties. A fisher 883 01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:57,159 have gone out in a trawler basically to fish. This birdlike creature there was 884 01:07:57,199 --> 01:08:00,360 about five or six feet tall with glowing red eyes I had on the topmost 885 01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,559 mass of the ship. Stayed there for about three days, unmoving, just 886 01:08:04,599 --> 01:08:09,840 looking at them from above, and then disappeared. And the description I gave 887 01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,840 I say it was like a tall bird like creature with gy red eyes and 888 01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:15,560 straight sort of think of mothmen. And this is the eighteen nineties in northern 889 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:20,760 Scotland. So this kind of creature seemed to crop up in other parts of 890 01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:24,720 the world where it's specifically mothmen. Not seeing the point blasn't one, of 891 01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:29,640 course, but a mothmen esque creature seems to occur at various places throughout the 892 01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:33,239 world. And when you mentioned nuclear sites earlier a few months ago, somebody 893 01:08:33,279 --> 01:08:40,239 asked me to look into if there were puckwadgy sightings in this particular area in 894 01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:46,680 Illinois, and they had said they had seen one near a pond next to 895 01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:53,119 a nuclear power plant. And something I always look into what I'm looking into 896 01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:57,680 little people's sightings is if there are thunderbird sightings in the same area, and 897 01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,680 I found tons of them in that same area. I don't remember the name 898 01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,960 of the town, but there was a nuclear power plant there. I think 899 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:11,239 it was Southern Illinois off the top of my head, but yeah, and 900 01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:15,039 you know the Bridgewater Triangle too, no power plant, but a lot of 901 01:09:15,039 --> 01:09:19,359 the sightings are under these high tension power lines that run straight through it. 902 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:26,279 It's like a creature highway type of thing there. Susan Sayer told us when 903 01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:32,720 we interviewed her that in the TNT area even today, sometimes vehicles will be 904 01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:39,399 driving along and the power just cuts out. The cars still totally stall and 905 01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,720 everything shuts down, and then it fires right back up again, and there 906 01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,880 are some high tension wires that are back there also. It sort of speaks 907 01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:53,359 the whole lote of em distortion fields, these things that things like nuclear power, 908 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,439 power cables, just the local EM field. And if one of the 909 01:09:56,319 --> 01:10:01,680 theories that ghost film because of distortions and recordings in the e M field, 910 01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:06,159 as oppose the idea of the stone tape theory of buildings is the em field 911 01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:10,520 of the media era is recording these events, So it could be that they 912 01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:13,640 are triggers if you like, as well, the energy that stay is triggering 913 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,159 off these kind of weird sightings, almost as if it is the way these 914 01:10:16,159 --> 01:10:19,319 things get into our reality for the distortions of the e M field, because 915 01:10:19,359 --> 01:10:26,720 things distorting it be nuclear bit mainly empower that kind of thing. What about 916 01:10:27,039 --> 01:10:31,159 Keel's writing style. Colin Wilson wrote a great book called Alien Dawn. He 917 01:10:31,239 --> 01:10:35,000 talks a lot about his correspondence with John Keel and then there he says, 918 01:10:35,079 --> 01:10:41,800 John Keel is incapable of writing a doll sentence any any passages of scenes in 919 01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:47,560 the mark Man prophecies that stand out to any of you. So a few 920 01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:57,199 weeks ago I listened to Keel on Art Bell their interviews, and that I 921 01:10:57,399 --> 01:11:00,800 like he was much more likable from that and in writing. In writing, 922 01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:06,479 I feel like he comes across like egotistical and judgmental. You know, he 923 01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:11,119 opens the book talking about the woman coming to the door in a cheap bathroom 924 01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:23,520 bathroom alone or male order bathroom. Yep. But he was much more likable 925 01:11:24,039 --> 01:11:29,359 in that interview spoken word to me, I must be that actually threw When 926 01:11:29,359 --> 01:11:32,159 I first read the book for the first time and he was talking about himself 927 01:11:32,159 --> 01:11:35,159 coming to the door, it was like, oh, right, didn't It 928 01:11:35,239 --> 01:11:39,720 was almost like funny, kind of kind of like a love crafty instart of 929 01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,199 like changing your the characters of the characters on this game man or Robert Chambers 930 01:11:43,239 --> 01:11:45,800 kind of style that there's the character talking about themselves almost in the third person. 931 01:11:46,199 --> 01:11:48,199 Oh right, now, they talked about himself coming to their door, 932 01:11:48,399 --> 01:11:51,920 and quite threw me at first. Well, for a long time I thought 933 01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:56,119 that was simply a literary device, you know, when he talks about those 934 01:11:56,159 --> 01:12:00,239 two people ended up dying on the bridge. So in an interview he was 935 01:12:00,279 --> 01:12:02,880 asked about that and he said, no, he actually came across that story 936 01:12:03,199 --> 01:12:08,359 later one time when he's in Point Pleasant, people were telling the story about 937 01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,560 this couple that died on the bridge, that had this mysterious stranger all dressed 938 01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:15,159 in black that came to the door. So I thought, how cool is 939 01:12:15,199 --> 01:12:18,359 that. I have a couple one of my past news. I can't quote 940 01:12:18,359 --> 01:12:24,800 it directly, but I always dusted off prior to every Mothman festival because it 941 01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:29,399 sounds exactly like John Keel was for telling the Mothman Festival, and it was 942 01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:33,800 talking about something about the strange ones were coming to West Virginia. They were 943 01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:43,880 trooping down the hollers like leprechauns seeking Impover's shoemakers. The what was it? 944 01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:48,600 The uh? I forget what it was, but and the procession of a 945 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:54,520 damned marched once more. Anyway, it sounded like everybody you know coming into 946 01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,399 Point Pleasant, all the thousands of people. I should have got the quote 947 01:12:57,399 --> 01:13:00,640 out to actually read it. And of course the other one that the best 948 01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:04,920 one is the year of the Garuda was at hand. A shadow was passing 949 01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:09,079 over little town. I never heard of Point Pleasant, West Virginia. And 950 01:13:09,119 --> 01:13:12,720 it goes on, there's so much, so much good stuff in there, 951 01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:17,000 and even the opening lines, you know, about the thunder and the fingers 952 01:13:17,039 --> 01:13:21,520 of lightning to our angry holes of the sky. But man, and he 953 01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:28,520 comes across as a little bit well, I mean a little racist really in 954 01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:33,239 certain spots. He comes across pretty sexist in certain spots in the Mothman prophecies. 955 01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,199 But if you take a look at what he writes about Jay Perrow in 956 01:13:36,279 --> 01:13:43,039 the Big Blackout the Holy slam her. He just totally slams her. She's 957 01:13:43,079 --> 01:13:45,359 not hot enough for him. He doesn't use those words, but that's really 958 01:13:45,399 --> 01:13:48,800 what he's coming down to. Of course, are trying to pair them together, 959 01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:53,079 and he's like, what's up with this? She's not good looking, 960 01:13:51,479 --> 01:14:00,600 She's there was like a person, and I want to fight. It's a 961 01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,359 good thing he didn't meet that redhead. I'll tell you jeez. He would 962 01:14:03,359 --> 01:14:15,479 devote a whole chapter tour Night of the Angry Redhead. But just because we 963 01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:19,880 would fight, does that mean I'm going to write him off? Because if 964 01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:23,520 I wrote everyone off that I would fight with, there would be no one 965 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:27,600 left. He had a great sense of humor, but you're right, it 966 01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,760 doesn't come across in his writing all the time, and he does in the 967 01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:35,000 interviews. He was a fun guy. Oh god. The lectures that there 968 01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:40,880 are several lectures you can find sometimes on YouTube a bad video, but he 969 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:47,520 talks about his military experience and when he went in Jaddu, when he went 970 01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,560 to Egypt and Tibetan and so forth. I mean, he was such an 971 01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:57,760 interesting guy. And the interview that Susie referred to, that was the interview 972 01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:00,000 he gave Art Bell was in two thousand and two when the film came out. 973 01:15:00,279 --> 01:15:03,720 He hadn't done any interviews for a long time, and Art Bell had 974 01:15:04,279 --> 01:15:08,800 knew very little about The Mothman. You know that this back when John Keel 975 01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:13,399 was being forgotten about. Thank god now that he's been revived and his books 976 01:15:13,399 --> 01:15:17,359 are in print and so forth. But you know, he was, he 977 01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:21,680 was, Bill and I have talked about this many times about how far ahead 978 01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:30,039 of the time Keel was with you know, I mean, and people detested 979 01:15:30,119 --> 01:15:38,640 him back from the sixties on because he dared question the sacrilege of extraterrestrials. 980 01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:42,399 You know, I don't. I think Giorgio suclists. But maybe that's why 981 01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:45,479 his hair is like that, because he read John Keel. I love the 982 01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:50,760 fact that he wasn't afraid to be the lone dissenting voice in the room. 983 01:15:51,359 --> 01:15:55,000 Right. I've never really been that guy. I kind of like to go 984 01:15:55,039 --> 01:15:58,560 along with things and get along with people. But he didn't seem to have 985 01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,479 a problem went out and basically telling you where he was coming from. Even 986 01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:05,279 if there was only one percent, and he was the one percent, ninety 987 01:16:05,319 --> 01:16:10,159 nine were against them, right. That race has certainly changed these days. 988 01:16:10,199 --> 01:16:13,760 I think it's moving more towards the ultra dristial for theory, though obviously the 989 01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:16,119 nuts of alts aliens people will stick to their like grim Death. But I 990 01:16:16,159 --> 01:16:19,079 think the field is moving, and that more general direction and more of a 991 01:16:19,159 --> 01:16:24,920 unified direction as well of different kinds of phenomena being seen as aspects of the 992 01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:28,119 same thing rather than being ampit separate. You know, the idea when I 993 01:16:28,199 --> 01:16:30,399 was first involved in sort of the idea of studying ghosts end UFOs like now 994 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:34,520 one or the other different worlds, you know, mixed ours up, and 995 01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:39,800 then I say that's not true. Very early on back in then sort of 996 01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,640 late the mid nineties, was first in a great good earthquakes, weves seed 997 01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,079 everything no matter what it was, whatever kind of formen. But then when 998 01:16:45,279 --> 01:16:49,039 the advent of ghosts TV programs like Most Haunted that started the whole thing off 999 01:16:49,079 --> 01:16:55,760 and shows, then this big separation began to occur between ghost paranormal stuff and 1000 01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:00,159 UFO type paranormal. So it did diverge considerable. Then there's coming back to 1001 01:17:00,159 --> 01:17:03,399 the middle ground again, I feel. But people like Keel are the ones 1002 01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:09,439 that have put push forward these ideas of ultraterrestrials rather than extraterrests. And to 1003 01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:13,199 say to me, it makes perfect sense. Even Jaq Coule's first two books 1004 01:17:13,239 --> 01:17:17,279 were looking at the phenomena as more of a nuts and balls privacies with an 1005 01:17:17,399 --> 01:17:23,399 enemy of a phenomenon and challenge to science. And then you know, you 1006 01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:25,960 can you can almost see these people like, well, they just throwing their 1007 01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:30,479 hands up. And then he wrote Passport to Magonia, looking at the connections 1008 01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:36,199 between elements of folklore and some modern day UFO experiences. I often wonder what 1009 01:17:36,239 --> 01:17:43,520 made Valet's direction change so quite dramatically, almost like midway through further on in 1010 01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:45,119 his writing career, there was a real change, another sort of another day, 1011 01:17:45,119 --> 01:17:48,439 I imagine. But yes, someone could onto that would be definitely a 1012 01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:54,600 future book, The Possible to Magonia for for our group, right, that 1013 01:17:54,720 --> 01:18:00,279 was on the list for this time. It got beat by this prophecies Instant's 1014 01:18:00,319 --> 01:18:05,359 non existent book the next show the exist the book. I'm gonna have to 1015 01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:09,119 I'm gonna have to pull a Gray Barker and you start making it up. 1016 01:18:09,119 --> 01:18:15,439 Then you can do it. I could. I'll source, uh Bill Kulis 1017 01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:21,199 is my my source. And there you go. This is borrowed those written 1018 01:18:21,199 --> 01:18:29,159 by Susie Bastile, edited by and we're all accessories before the fact. Now, 1019 01:18:29,359 --> 01:18:34,880 yeah, all right, gentlemen, I think it's time to wrap it 1020 01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:40,239 up. Otherwise, we talked about Keel all night long with this group. 1021 01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:43,960 I fear and Susie, I would hate to keep talking about John Keel. 1022 01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,640 You know that, I know you. It's just been so painful for you. 1023 01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:55,159 I'm sure. Thank Bill again for joining us. Thank you very much, 1024 01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:00,880 appreciate it. You're very welcome. Well, I think we should thank 1025 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:08,000 Susie for creating this podcast in this book club, because this has been a 1026 01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:13,319 blast, and this is all started from my desire to force people to talk 1027 01:19:13,359 --> 01:19:19,680 about books that I'm reading with me. Ah, I see on board very 1028 01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:25,079 early on with this Andy, We've been manipulated, That's what happened. I 1029 01:19:25,079 --> 01:19:28,520 don't mind that. I can live with that. Okay, there's a reason 1030 01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:34,319 I like trickster energies. But this has been a great time setting. And 1031 01:19:34,359 --> 01:19:36,520 one thing I would have to say is I've been doing shows with Steve for 1032 01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:41,359 about five years now, and I don't think it's ever been a single show 1033 01:19:41,359 --> 01:19:44,800 where John has not been meanted at least once, so I had a chance 1034 01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:46,880 to mention many times tonight. I think it's in my contract and I would 1035 01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:55,199 not absolutely the contract, so I know that, all right. Thank you 1036 01:19:55,239 --> 01:19:59,640 all, and thank everyone in the comments and everyone watching. It was a 1037 01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:02,560 lot of fun and I'm looking forward to the next book, whichever one that 1038 01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:08,399 will be. So get on over to the Facebook group and we'll start a 1039 01:20:08,399 --> 01:20:14,000 new poll for the next Times book. Thanks for listening, everybody, everyone, 1040 01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:16,479 Thanks everybody, good night, good morning from the UK.