1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,799 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,240 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by author Kim Cross here to talk 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,200 about her book In Light of All Darkness Inside the Polyclass Kidnapping and the Search 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,840 for America's Child. Kim, thank you so much for joining us today. 13 00:00:56,399 --> 00:00:59,520 Thanks so much for having me go ahead and start by talking to us a 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,320 little bit of your professional and educational background. How did you get to be 15 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:07,519 a writer? I was lucky, and that I learned very early that I 16 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:10,439 wanted to be a writer. As early as high school. I started working 17 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:14,200 for my local newspaper in high school at the suggestion of one of my high 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,239 school teachers, went to journalism school, graduated, went out, and decided 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,400 to become a business writer, covering the new economy for a magazine called Business 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,480 two point zero during the dot com boom and bust. When the bust happened, 21 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:30,719 I lost my job, and I went back for a graduate degree that 22 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:34,000 I didn't necessarily need, but wanted to work on a book which I didn't 23 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,840 get published it was, wrote it all wrong, and then went briefly into 24 00:01:37,879 --> 00:01:41,959 newspapers, worked for The Timespickyun in New Orleans, the Saint Pete Times in 25 00:01:42,439 --> 00:01:46,760 Florida, and freelanced a little bit for other papers, and then fell backwards 26 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,359 into someone else's dream job at Southern Limbing. I was a travel writer and 27 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,319 editor at Southern Living, and I got to go and do things that other 28 00:01:53,319 --> 00:01:56,760 people do on vacation and write about them. But I was fraud because I 29 00:01:56,799 --> 00:02:00,400 felt like Cinderella's ugly sister, gimping around in the glass slider that didn't fit 30 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:06,920 and I really wanted felt like I would have been happier as a war correspondenters. 31 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,360 So I was at Southern Living, this other someone else's dream job, 32 00:02:10,439 --> 00:02:15,800 when the idea for my first book surfaced. In this huge tornado outbreak hit 33 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,400 Alabama among twenty one other states, and I wrote a magazine piece about it. 34 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,400 The magazine piece turned into a book. I quit my job to write 35 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,240 the book and go freelance, and I've been freelance for ten years. Now. 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,599 Were you living down south at that point when you were working for Southern 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,240 Living. I was living in Birmingham, Alabama, and I was hiding in 38 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,680 my laundry room when the big tornado that was headed toward Tuscaloosa, where I 39 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:40,680 went to school, was headed on track to hit our house. And it 40 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:45,360 didn't hit our house, but like many people, I realized that could have 41 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,479 been us. And in the wake of that, I saw how people respond 42 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,000 to a tragedy with pretty beautiful things. And the name of that book is 43 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,960 What stands in a Storm. Now, somehow you ended up getting from Alabama 44 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,680 to where you are today, which is Boise, Idaho. How did that 45 00:03:01,719 --> 00:03:07,199 happen? This has nothing to do with true crime, but it has to 46 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:12,479 do with mountain biking. My husband runs a statewide league that basically makes mountain 47 00:03:12,479 --> 00:03:16,120 biking an interscholastic sport for fifteen hundred kids in Idaho. He started the league 48 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,960 in Alabama and then got recruited to Idaho to run the league here. And 49 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,080 in my other I'm a full time author and freelance writer, but I have 50 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,759 a side hustle as a mountain bike coach, and so I'm the head coach 51 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,360 of my son's high school mountain bike team, and then I have a little 52 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,719 coaching business on the side that is awesome. And before we turn to your 53 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:43,039 latest book, we were also having a little Admiration Society meet up regarding Catherine 54 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,360 Kate Miles, who's a friend of ours and has been on the podcast. 55 00:03:46,919 --> 00:03:53,599 You two have a lot in common in terms of your interest in the outdoors, 56 00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:59,960 women's athletics, and extreme weather. You've both written books about extreme weather, 57 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,599 which seems to be the topic of the day, and now you've both 58 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:08,400 transitioned over into a true crime book. Correct, Kate Miles. Huge shout 59 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:13,039 out of love for Kate Miles. Our careers have had this very strange parallel. 60 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,360 We've never actually met in person, but we have a lot of the 61 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,000 same friends in the narrative world, and in fact, her book is on 62 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:24,160 my shelf behind me. But yeah, she wrote about superstorm Sandy and I 63 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,360 wrote about a tornado outbreak. I think she reached out and I blurbed her 64 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:30,519 book. And then when this true crime book, when I started writing this, 65 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,439 I saw that she had written trailed and I reached out to her and 66 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,519 said, sheepishly, Hi, read your book. You did it really well. 67 00:04:36,879 --> 00:04:40,959 I like that, how respectful you were. This is a really hard 68 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:44,480 and lonely place for me. I'm struggling with being in the true crime space, 69 00:04:44,519 --> 00:04:46,839 which is for readers who don't know my work. I have never been 70 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,600 a consumer writer true crime and found myself very uncomfortable out of my element. 71 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,240 So I reached out to Kate and said, can we just talk. There 72 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,279 are so many things that are that I'm agonizing over and I feel like you 73 00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:00,680 might understand, and she I said sure. So, as I was on 74 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,639 a writing retreat, going through the throes of getting this manuscript on paper, 75 00:05:05,079 --> 00:05:09,800 she talked to me and counseled me and provided such a warm ear and an 76 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,160 understanding heart to what I was going through. I think she knew better than 77 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:16,920 just about anyone. And this is a very tough genre to try to get 78 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,600 into because you have to put your heart and soul into it, and you 79 00:05:20,639 --> 00:05:27,480 are also dealing with some very uncomfortable material. My heart goes out to you 80 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,040 for that. It is rough. How did you decide on the Polyclass case 81 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:36,399 as being the subject of your first true crime book first and probably last? 82 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:42,199 Thank you. That's a great question. I like to say that my very 83 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,439 best stories end up choosing me instead of the other way around. The storm 84 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,600 book chose me. This book chose me in that I happened to have access 85 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,399 that no other journalist could get, and I happened to have the skill set 86 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,519 that could bring the massive amount of data and information involved in this very complex 87 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:05,279 case to life. So the access stems from the fact that I am married 88 00:06:05,319 --> 00:06:11,720 to the son of the FBI case agent who oversaw the poly Class kidnapping. 89 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,879 We've been married for it'll be twenty years next week. The FBI case agent 90 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:21,000 who solved this case and oversaw its huge complexity is my father in law. 91 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,240 I had been married to a son for fifteen years when it even occurred to 92 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,040 me to write this book and It only occurred to me because my husband said, 93 00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:32,639 after my first book, you should think about telling the poly class story. 94 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:35,199 You might be the only one who could do it. And I had 95 00:06:35,319 --> 00:06:40,360 never even thought about it. Even though the poly class case is something like 96 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,120 a sister in law, it is just part of our family DNA. When 97 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:48,040 we gather with the Friar family, there's not a gathering that occurs where the 98 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,720 poly class name or case doesn't come up. It's just always there. It's 99 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,040 part of his legacy, it's part of his life. And so at some 100 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,199 point I thought, Okay, this isn't really my kind of story. My 101 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,199 work tends to focus on something with a redemptive message. Often it's the beautiful 102 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,839 things that come from our brokenness, and I didn't know if that existed in 103 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,680 this case. It just from what I knew about, it seemed like a 104 00:07:11,759 --> 00:07:15,920 really sad ending with lasting tragedy for the people who lost Polly. So I 105 00:07:15,959 --> 00:07:19,519 started doing my homework because I always reported out. The more I looked into 106 00:07:19,519 --> 00:07:24,680 it, the more I realized this case has a really amazing legacy in that 107 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,920 it was a testing and proving ground for so many new forensic techniques within the 108 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:33,519 FBI. One FBI agent told me that this case quote changed the way the 109 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:39,399 FBI does business. I realized when I started interviewing the people involved in the 110 00:07:39,399 --> 00:07:42,920 case that many of them have been using this as a case study to train 111 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,759 future generations of investigators based on what they learned, and they're still doing it 112 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,399 thirty years later. Even though technology has changed and the world has changed social 113 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:57,240 media. Everything's different now. However, the case still remains that relevant today 114 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,319 that it is still being taught. My father in law, Friar, still 115 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,160 teaches it an average of once a month, and he has been for the 116 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:07,319 past thirty years, so he has taught literally thousands and thousands of investigators, 117 00:08:07,639 --> 00:08:11,720 and so have other people who worked on this case. So I thought this 118 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:13,759 really needs to be documented, and I wanted to write the book of record 119 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,000 so that when they retire, the story lives on and continues teaching people as 120 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,920 it has for thirty years. So the truth is Losing Polly is obviously a 121 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:28,839 tragedy, but there are some positives and there is some sort of light at 122 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:33,720 the end of the story in that some very good things came out of what 123 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:41,039 started and remains a tragic situation. Exactly, nothing will change the tragedy of 124 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,799 Poly's deaf. Nothing can bring her back, and nothing can make it less 125 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:48,919 sad and horrible how she died. However, I don't like it when people 126 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,480 say everything happens for a reason, because I think this didn't have to happen. 127 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,320 This didn't happen for a reason. But I do like the idea that 128 00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:00,840 beautiful things come from our brokenness, and often sometimes in spight of things that 129 00:09:00,879 --> 00:09:05,960 happen horrifically, and sometimes even because of them, those lessons learned are used 130 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,799 to produce transformative change in ways that echo and echo, and I do think 131 00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:15,440 that this is true here this case has literally changed and saved lives. We 132 00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:20,360 do have listeners who doubtless will not be familiar with the Polyclass case. Can 133 00:09:20,399 --> 00:09:24,279 you give any of our listeners who have not heard of it just a brief 134 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,759 rundown of what happened? And I realize it's asking a lot because it is 135 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:33,480 a very complex case. Just in a nutshell, what happened to Poly Class. 136 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:37,240 On October one, nineteen ninety three, a twelve year old girl was 137 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,840 kidnapped from her bedroom during a sleepover with two friends by a man who was 138 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,919 wielding a knife and walked into her house and took her. Her mom and 139 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,279 sister were sleeping next door. It was a very rare stranger abduction from the 140 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:54,840 house, and what happened is at first summarize. Okay, The two month 141 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,679 investigation that followed was one of the largest manhunts in FBI history. Four thousand 142 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,559 fall in tears came in out of the woodwork to help search for Polly. 143 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:05,679 It was a huge outbaring of support from the community and really around the world, 144 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:11,799 where people posted flyers and walked the fields and streams and mountains around Sonoma 145 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:16,639 to look for her, and people really cared. They saw her as if 146 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,039 they were she was their own child. To a lot of people, Polly 147 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:24,120 represented the sister or niece or daughter or someone that they knew and cared about. 148 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,679 She really felt like America's child, and so America came out and cared 149 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:31,879 and did what they could defind her. After two months of really no good 150 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:37,440 leads, there was a break in the case that resulted because the investigators and 151 00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:41,600 the volunteers had this arrangement with the media. The media kept the story alive 152 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,039 by writing about the volunteers when there were no new leads in the case to 153 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,360 write about, and those stories generated public leads and tips. There were sixty 154 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:56,600 thousand tips from the public and twelve thousand leads that investigators had to chase down 155 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:58,519 in these two months, and most of them led to a dead end or 156 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,200 red herring. Two months in, there was a woman named Dana Jaffe who 157 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,039 was walking her property. It was a wooded property in the Sonoma Hills, 158 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:11,080 and she stumbled upon some suspicious items that she might have just thought were trash, 159 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:15,360 but she had seen the coverage of police case and she thought this has 160 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,000 to be related. It made her remember that a two months earlier, on 161 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:22,399 the night of Polly's kidnapping, there was a trespasser who came on her property 162 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:26,000 in goddess car stuff. She called the authorities. Sheriffs came out and removed 163 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,879 his car. At the time, they didn't know that there had been a 164 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:33,600 kidnapping, and so they let him go. And that was, in fact 165 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:39,559 the kidnapper that lead from Dana Jaffe. I wonder if Dana Jaffe would have 166 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,440 made that connection if she hadn't seen the media response. So this case represented 167 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,720 the perfect storm between the media collaborating with the investigators collaborating with the volunteers, 168 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,679 and they all came together in a way that I think solved the case. 169 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:58,639 One quick observation, I would be willing to bet you a great lunch that 170 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,159 she would not have moved forward with the information had there not been the media 171 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:11,240 coverage. Kristin and I are both big believers in keeping stories alive, shining 172 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,399 the media spotlight. Using the media spotlight, people want to help, and 173 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,679 the polyclass case is a great example of that. Tell us a little bit 174 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,159 more about the case. So when Dana Jaffi found the suspicious items, she 175 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:30,039 brought it to the attention of the local sheriff's department. They contacted Pedalomapedi and 176 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,200 sent out a detective who had been in Polic's room on the night at the 177 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,279 kidnapping. He had seen white ligatures that were on her floor that were used 178 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:41,600 to bind her friends. Those ligatures looked exactly like the ligatures that were found 179 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:43,879 on Dana Jaffe's property, so he thought immediately, this has got to be 180 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:48,919 connected. Because the trespasser had been stopped, they did a field incident report 181 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,360 that captured his name, so finally they had a suspect, and his name 182 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,799 was Richard Allen Davis. They looked him up and he had been recently parole 183 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,960 about a few months before Pauli was kidnapped. He had been a serial offender 184 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,120 with a history of violent crimes over almost his entire adult life. He had 185 00:13:07,159 --> 00:13:11,000 spent most of his adult life incarcerated, and he was out on parole, 186 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,440 and because of a parole violation, they were able to arrest him, and 187 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:20,159 they arrested him, brought him into custody, and that's where another series of 188 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,799 really crazy things happened that go back to the media interest and participation from the 189 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:31,639 public. He was incarcerated in Mendocino County Jail in isolation, unable to see 190 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,000 any media reports. When the media released news of a palm print that was 191 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:41,200 found in Polly's bedroom that matched his palm print from a previous arrest, and 192 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:45,279 so this was news in the paper, but he didn't know about it. 193 00:13:45,919 --> 00:13:48,720 Someone who he had worked for when he was out of prison. He was 194 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:50,519 a sheet metal worker and he had worked for a guy named Marvin White who 195 00:13:50,799 --> 00:13:54,480 saw Davis's picture on the news, saw the palm print news and said, 196 00:13:54,600 --> 00:14:00,360 I wonder if I could go and convince him to lead them to Polly Marvin 197 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:03,360 White gets in his car and drives up to Mendocino from he lived on the 198 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:09,360 Peninsula in San Francisco, and he asked to see Richard Allen Davis. Interestingly, 199 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:13,080 Davis had not heard the news of the print match. Marvin White goes 200 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,440 in and informs him, and then Davis doesn't react and he just nods, 201 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:20,519 but he knows that they have him. Right after that, Marvin White leaves 202 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,919 and to a detective and an FBI agent go in to take his palm prints 203 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:30,720 because they needed a fresh set of prints. He had invoked his Miranda rights, 204 00:14:30,919 --> 00:14:33,240 so they were not allowed to question him at all about the case. 205 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,919 But in a rare exception to the Miranda right law, which means you can't 206 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,600 ask a suspect anything about the case, you can talk to them about the 207 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,120 weather and about other things. And one of the detectives said, hey, 208 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:50,399 right now, it's just a kidnapping and if she's alive, you might want 209 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,559 to think about talking some more. So if you want to talk, have 210 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:56,600 them call me. They leave, and Davis thinks about it, and then 211 00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:01,279 he calls and asks to speak to the detective and he invoked his Marnda rights, 212 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,480 but there was an exception to it. In reaching out to the investigators, 213 00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:07,960 he basically waved his Maranda rights, did so on paper, sign a 214 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,440 form that said I waived my rights, and he confessed to the murder of 215 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,720 polyclass and told them he would lead them to her body, which he did, 216 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,759 and then they brought her home. That was probably oversimplified the body part, 217 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:22,000 but no, he led them to her body. And if he hadn't, 218 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,320 I wonder if they ever would have found her. Based on your description 219 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,519 of where they found her, it doesn't seem terribly likely that they would have 220 00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:35,919 without that help. It is a massively complex case. And thank you for 221 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,799 that summary, because I know that there are going to be people out there 222 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:41,399 who don't remember it. The case, as you said, is thirty years 223 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,320 old. There are a couple of things about Polly's kidnapping that are very interesting, 224 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,399 and one of those things is that it is pretty rare for a stranger 225 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:54,000 kidnapping to take place. I know that facts and statistics change over time. 226 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,279 Probably getting into those is something that we're going to steer away from. But 227 00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:03,559 what can you speak to about stranger abductions and kidnapping in general? Kidnappings in 228 00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:08,519 general are pretty rare. Usually missing children are runaways or parental abduction piecees where 229 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:14,960 there might be a custody struggle. Sometimes they are misunderstandings someone they've gone off 230 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,799 with a boyfriend or something. But kidnappings in general are rare, especially stranger 231 00:16:18,799 --> 00:16:22,840 abductions, and especially stranger of abductions from the home. That is the rarest 232 00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:27,720 of all. It's a parent's worst nightmare and an agent's worst nightmare. It's 233 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:32,759 scary. Like I do remember, I am old enough to remember the Polyclass 234 00:16:32,799 --> 00:16:37,279 case, and I remember hearing about it and just being terrified because this is 235 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,600 just an absolute nightmare. You're having a sleepover with your friends, you're hanging 236 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,840 out, you're doing the things that little girls do. You're popping around to 237 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:48,879 the music, you're singing, you're reading scary stories, you're doing whatever. 238 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:52,200 And suddenly there is a guy with a knife in your home. It is 239 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,960 just an absolute nightmare scenario. Can't imagine anything scarier. You did a wonderful 240 00:16:59,039 --> 00:17:06,119 job, and this with painting Polly as a whole person with a complex life, 241 00:17:06,519 --> 00:17:08,799 and painting to her friends who had to deal with this. And I'll 242 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:11,519 tell you, before I read your book, I hadn't given a lot of 243 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:17,480 thought to the fact that there were two probably very terrified young ladies who witnessed 244 00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:21,759 this and then had to deal with this. Talk a little bit about the 245 00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:26,599 way that the girls were treated by law enforcement when they went to give their 246 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:33,119 statements about Polly and her disappearance. Great question. Initially, when Kate and 247 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,279 Jillian were first interviewed by police, they seemed a little bit preternaturally calm. 248 00:17:38,759 --> 00:17:44,880 They weren't acting like what investigators thought witnesses should act like after their best friend 249 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,200 has just been kidnapped by a scary guy who walked into the house of the 250 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:52,920 knife. They were probably in shock. They were very calm, and they 251 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:59,079 were very articulate, and they were interviewed separately by detectives who got the story, 252 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,079 and at first they both admitted thinking maybe this is a joke. Polly 253 00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:10,640 was a wonderful actress and a very avid frankster. The girls loved pranking each 254 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:11,960 other. If you're in junior high, you remember what it was like to 255 00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:17,359 do prank Paul's and play jokes on your friends. So pranking was a big 256 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,519 thing. That's what they did at slumber parties. And there was a slumber 257 00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:25,000 party something like the week before, and they had read school scary stories, 258 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,960 scary stories, and they had someone's little brother come and knock on the door 259 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,880 at the spookiest moment possible to bodily effect. This is just what they did 260 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,599 when Kate and Jillian were Kate and Gillian and Pollie were sitting in a room 261 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,640 playing a board game when this man dressed in black comes in with a knife 262 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,839 and says, don't scream or I'll slit your throats. And he made them 263 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,720 lie down on the ground. He put pillowcases over their heads, and then 264 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,400 he gagged them first with kind of a white silky cloth and then with what 265 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,720 felt like electrical cord, and then bound their hands behind their backs, and 266 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,880 then he took Polly away. Kate and Gillian were thinking this is a joke. 267 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,279 This is a really good one at first, and then they thought, 268 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,359 at first he didn't seem that scary to him. He looks normal, they 269 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,759 said in their interviews, and so they thought this is probably a joke. 270 00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:11,960 I think Jillian even giggled. And then when he took Polly, they told 271 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:15,440 he told them to count to a thousand and that when they reached a thousand 272 00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:18,720 she would be back. But she never came back, and at some point 273 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:22,680 they untied each other and ran into the next room and woke up Polly's mother 274 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,839 and said, this is not a joke. Going back to your question, 275 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:32,160 when they were interviewed, they were very calm, very articulate. They were 276 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,119 counted almost identically what happened. But there were two minor inconsistencies. One was 277 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,960 that one of them had remembered a neon yellow headband like a bandana, tied 278 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,759 around the perpetrator's head. The other one did not remember this. And then 279 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,960 the one who didn't remember the headband remembered a slamming screen door, but the 280 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:55,119 door on the front door, the screen door was propped open by two bikes 281 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,759 and could not have slammed shut. So investigators really looked at these inconsistencies as 282 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:03,759 evidence that they were telling a story. They've had a lot of skepticism at 283 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:07,960 the beginning, and I think the skepticism was pretty much all around because also 284 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,319 Pedalimma was a town where this sort of thing didn't happen. It had one 285 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,160 murder a year, and it was a little quiet town where people moved so 286 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:18,720 their kids would have safe childhoods. So a lot of them had grown up 287 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,480 there and they thought, this doesn't happen in Pedalima, this is my town. 288 00:20:21,839 --> 00:20:25,440 And they either didn't believe. Some of them even admitted maybe we didn't 289 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,319 want to believe that this was true. So there was a lot of skepticism 290 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,640 and the girls were interviewed repeatedly, and repeatedly with every subsequent interview, the 291 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,400 interviews went less from interview to and more towards interrogation. By I think the 292 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,400 third interrogation, they were grilled with the same tools that investigators would have used 293 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,759 for a criminal and it was pretty harsh, and it scared them and it 294 00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:52,759 upset them, understandably, and it was very traumatic. So there were lasting 295 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,200 trauma effects from this that it still exists to this day, understandably. And 296 00:20:57,279 --> 00:21:02,240 also some of the investigators themselves were traumatized because they were forced to play the 297 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,200 badcock role when they didn't want to do it. So one of the things 298 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,720 that was learned was that children should not be treated this way. Children can't 299 00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:12,839 be interviewed and interrogated like adults. And back at that time, there wasn't 300 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,160 any special training for child and adolescent interviews and they just tools that they had. 301 00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:25,160 Since then, there's now a specialist called the Child and Adolescent forensic investigator. 302 00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:30,640 They are trained in gently interviewing children, especially witnesses or victims, in 303 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,920 a way that hopefully does not encourreg additional trauma on top of what they've already 304 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,039 been through from the crime. So that was one of the major changes and 305 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:44,759 lessons learned that came from this case. I could see parents being outraged that 306 00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:52,160 their young daughters were treated so harshly, essentially treated almost like suspects they were. 307 00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:56,279 The parents were upset, and after that late night interview they said, 308 00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:00,319 we're done, no more interviews, We're done with you. FBI, and 309 00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:04,519 my father in law, actually I think, realized what had happened and he 310 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:08,119 went and apologize to the girls. He took flowers and Teddy bears and apologized, 311 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:14,680 And at some point the investigators decided to do a video re enactment where 312 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,759 the girls were treated as we believe you, and we want a video you 313 00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:22,160 describing what happened in police room, and they videotaped it so they could share 314 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,920 it with other investigators to understand what happened. But it was rough, and 315 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:30,599 I think there are lasting effects to this day all around from that. So 316 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,880 Kate and Jillian did work with you on the book. It sounds like you 317 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,759 were able to interview them, but the class family did not work with you 318 00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:41,519 on the book. Is that correct? Correct? So let me start with 319 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,319 Kate and Jillian. I reached out to Kate and Jillian after I felt I 320 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,640 had learned as much as I could learn from the documents and the primary sources 321 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,319 and the interviews with investigators, and I felt pretty certain they would not want 322 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,000 to talk to me. I reached out, as I do to most of 323 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:00,000 the people that I write about who have gone through something traumatic, and then 324 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:03,519 I initially wrote a letter and send it through friend of a friend, someone 325 00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:07,160 who they know and trust, who has had the opportunity to vet me and 326 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:11,079 say we know her, so that way I'm not coming out of the weeds 327 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,279 and being startling. And I didn't hear back, and so I assumed that 328 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,400 was a no. And it turns out that neither letter had reached them, 329 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,480 and I started getting towards the end of the writing and started worrying that the 330 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:26,880 letters hadn't reached them, and so I reached out again. It turns out 331 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,200 that they hadn't got the letters, and they did want to help me tell 332 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:33,119 a factual account. Jillian did talk with me on the record, and she 333 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,960 very generously talked with me for several hours on zoom and then in ongoing conversations 334 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,000 because she was committed to helping me get it right, and she did allow 335 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:45,799 me to interview her. Kate has asked to keep her adult life private, 336 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:48,319 and I respect her wishes, and so I'm going to say less about Kate, 337 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,799 but I will say Kate talk to me on background, which means I 338 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:55,079 don't want to be quoted, I don't want to be interviewed, but I 339 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,200 will have a conversation with you in which you can use the information to make 340 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,400 the story beat her. She really, through our conversations, helped me write 341 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,440 with greater sensitivity and nuance to some things that I might not have been aware 342 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,680 of on my own, and to both of them, I'm really grateful. 343 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:15,279 I did something that I don't normally do in that I let Gillian review the 344 00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:18,960 chapters in which she was present, because you don't want people to rewrite them, 345 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,319 and she didn't try to rewrite anything, but she did catch a couple 346 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,599 of really minor errors, and I wanted her to be comfortable with what was 347 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,440 being written, and I wanted her to help me get it as accurate as 348 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:33,559 possible, so I was really grateful on both counts to them. Paully's family 349 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,880 declined to speak with me when I started working on this book seven years ago. 350 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:40,880 I reached out to Eve in an email through my father in law. 351 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,880 I think he forwarded my email to her, and she very politely declined and 352 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,519 said, I can't help you. This is still just too painful, but 353 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:51,880 I wish you the best of luck. And then I reached out to Mark 354 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,599 around the same time, and I didn't hear back. I had met him 355 00:24:55,599 --> 00:25:00,200 at a class kids event where we had our son fingerprinted, and Eddie has 356 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,359 been introduced himself as Eddy junior son, and we tried to go out to 357 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,839 dinner. Plans fell through and so we didn't really get to know each other. 358 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,960 I reached out again by email closer to the time as the book was 359 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,519 being written, and he didn't respond, so I just figured he I would 360 00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:18,799 respect his privacy and not push further. Now, Mark's done a lot of 361 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:25,319 very interesting things as an advocate since losing Polly. Can you talk a little 362 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,440 bit about that, Just think in general terms, he's really been pretty amazing. 363 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,079 In the years since he has, he's been a wonderful spokesperson an advocate 364 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:40,799 for child safety, everything from lobbying for laws that affect child safety to supporting 365 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:45,119 the parents of kidnap children. Whenever a child is kidnapped, he's usually one 366 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,119 of the first to arrive and try to be there for the parents because no 367 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,880 one can really understand what they're going through like someone who's been through it themselves. 368 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:57,000 So he's been a tireless advocate, and he started a foundation called Class 369 00:25:57,079 --> 00:26:02,519 Kids, where I think they've ingerprinted about one million kids, including my son, 370 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:08,480 and he's always there to speak about the costs. You're listening to Mind 371 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:22,200 over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 372 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,839 back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just 373 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,680 wanted to remind you that we have a go fund me effort going on right 374 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:36,920 now. This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help promote Mind 375 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:44,079 over Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love 376 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,920 it if you could support us in any way that you can. Any donation 377 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:52,839 from five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be 378 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,039 incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes and in our social media 379 00:26:56,079 --> 00:27:02,599 pages. As always, thanks for your support. Now back to mind over 380 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:10,880 Murder. You had talked earlier about some of the changes that were made in 381 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,519 how law enforcement has handled or does not handle a kidnapping case. One of 382 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:18,119 them, of course, is the way that they work with child witnesses and 383 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,359 victims. What are some of the other changes that were made to law enforcement 384 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:29,680 when it comes to handling kidnap cases. One thing is I think the collaboration 385 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:34,400 and communication between different agencies at the state and federal level. And this was 386 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,240 a good case where the FBI were called in pretty early to collaborate, and 387 00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:42,759 that was a great thing because the FBI can bring resources that local agencies don't 388 00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:49,599 have. Interestingly, the detectives from the local agencies pt Aalomiped and the agents 389 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:55,279 from the FBI who worked on this case went out and did briefings on the 390 00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:59,319 case to other law enforcement agencies. Sharing with this ever happens to you, 391 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,359 here's what you can do. Here are the steps to follow, And at 392 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,200 the end of the book, I don't want to completely blow the ending or 393 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,000 spoil the ending. But you will meet a girl who was saved because the 394 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,680 chief of police in her town had been to one of those briefings and followed 395 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,880 the steps and got the agencies involved. So I will say that communication changed. 396 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,160 Also at the time, the equipment that was in a patrol car didn't 397 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,240 give the sheriffs who responded to the trespasser they can look up whether the trustpasser 398 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,960 had a warrant for his arrest or was the car stolen. Neither were true, 399 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,880 and so they didn't have any legal means to detain him, so they 400 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,759 let him go, even though their spidery sent said something's up. So now 401 00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:41,480 there are computers and cars where they can look up I think a full rap 402 00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:47,039 sheet you can see a lot more information that might have changed what they could 403 00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:48,960 do with it at the time. One of the things that I found very 404 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,440 disturbing and getting ready for this interview, going back and looking at just the 405 00:28:53,480 --> 00:29:00,559 basics of what happened in Paula's case, and this idea that these deputies sheriffs 406 00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:06,319 had this treuspasser and could have taken him into custody if they had only known 407 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,680 that. In an adjoining but very close by jurisdiction, there was a kidnapping 408 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,160 taking place, and it just breaks my heart to read about that kind of 409 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:22,000 stuff where these well meaning deputy sheriffs responded to the treuspassing call and showed up, 410 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,720 and as you said, they thought something was off. But when they 411 00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:32,640 ran a wantson warrants, all they got was there's nothing for this guy, 412 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,119 and they had no idea that fairly close by there was the start of a 413 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,240 very important kidnapping investigation and it was a missing girl at that point. Polyclass 414 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:48,920 wasn't with the suspect when he was found with the broken down car off the 415 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:52,240 road. Do they have a sense of where she might have been had she 416 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,039 been murdered by that point or are they not certain? So this is a 417 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,000 part of the story where there's a law of misinformation out there and a lot 418 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:06,920 of assumptions. I really wanted to correct that in the book. People very 419 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,759 close to the case, not investigators, but relatives investigators said something I heard 420 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:15,480 over and over read over and over in comments like I can't believe she was 421 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:18,960 in the trunk and they didn't search the car. That's not true. It 422 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,440 was a hatchback, there was no trunk and they did search the car with 423 00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:25,559 They asked how to ask his permission, because they didn't have probable cause, 424 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,680 they had to ask permission, and they searched it and they just found they 425 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:33,640 didn't find anything suspicious. He later said in the confession or the admission that 426 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,559 she was up on the hillside waiting, and that when the deputies escorted him 427 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:42,279 off of the property, she was just there waiting, and that he came 428 00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:47,519 back and got her. This is a point of speculation that people will argue 429 00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:52,880 about still, and we will probably never know for sure. That spot on 430 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,039 the hill is where Dana Jaffy found the suspicious items, and those items were 431 00:30:56,279 --> 00:31:02,519 ligatures that matched the ones used to buy Kate and Gillian's wrists, and some 432 00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:06,279 red tights, children's red tights that were tied in a knot with some hair 433 00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:10,359 in it, and a men's black sweatshirt. Different people believe different things about 434 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:14,319 whether or not she was alive. I went there in my reporting and with 435 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,160 Dana Jaffie's permission, I went there in the daytime, and she showed me 436 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,000 where she had found the items, and then asked permission to go back at 437 00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:25,079 night on a night when the moon was in a similar place to where it 438 00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,240 was on October first, nineteen ninety three. I went back at about the 439 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,920 same time, and I stood there in that spot with my car parked in 440 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,880 the position that the Sheriff's deputies cars were parked in the photos of recreating that 441 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,720 night, and I left the car running as their cars were running, their 442 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,680 headlights were on, because I wanted to know how loud was it, how 443 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,240 bright was it. Now there had been a major fire that swept through the 444 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:52,839 area. I forget the name of the fire, but the foliage is a 445 00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:56,720 lot thinner today than it was then. But that location on the hill was 446 00:31:56,839 --> 00:32:00,480 much closer to the gate and the place on the driveway where the cars were 447 00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:05,640 parked. I was really struck by at night how loud the sound of the 448 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,000 engine was and how bright the lights were. And I found it hard to 449 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:15,640 imagine that someone who was alive and conscious wouldn't scream for help, or if 450 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,519 they were gagged, rustle around and cause leaves to rustle on the ground. 451 00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:23,759 But then you just don't know how you would behave in a situation like that. 452 00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:28,039 We can't really assume. I went to a talk with Elizabeth Smart, 453 00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:30,160 who was asked they paraded you around in public. Why didn't you scream? 454 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,680 And she said, I was just brainwashed to the point where I was raised 455 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,920 to do what adults told me to and I didn't. If that could be 456 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,359 true, it's possible that Polly was alive and didn't scream, But just knowing 457 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,200 that she was a pretty pretty spunky kid and her dad raised her to be 458 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,480 pretty alert, I had a hard time imagining that she could have been alert 459 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,759 at that moment and not alerted the deputies being that close. And Davis maintains 460 00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:58,240 to this day that she was alive, even in a I read in one 461 00:32:58,279 --> 00:33:00,200 of my files, my documents, I found a letter that he had written 462 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,000 to a prison girlfriend, and he maintained this letter that she was still alive. 463 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:07,960 But I find it hard to believe. But we'll never know. What 464 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,799 would you say? The distance would be roughly from the place where Polly was 465 00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:17,319 supposed to have been left and where the police had pulled over. I counted 466 00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:22,039 out paces, and if my memory serves me right, it was thirty paces 467 00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:27,759 from the spot where the suspicious items were found, thirty paces from there to 468 00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:31,000 the driveway, and from that point on the driveway thirty paces to the cars 469 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,000 not very far and if you figure one of my paces is probably two feet 470 00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:42,400 it was a tough spot to visit. Yeah, you had to live and 471 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:47,319 breathe this case while writing the book. It's rough. It's hard to immerse 472 00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:52,640 yourself in something like this. What did you do to try to distract yourself 473 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:59,319 or distance yourself from the material to avoid being completely overwhelmed by it? Gosh, 474 00:33:59,319 --> 00:34:01,920 that's a great question. And this book took a huge toll on my 475 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,519 mental and physical health when I was writing it. I spent about six months 476 00:34:07,799 --> 00:34:10,679 pulled up in a cabin by myself, away from my family to focus on 477 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,159 it. To pull together so many discrete details, you need uninterrupted time and 478 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,880 big chunks of it. And luckily it was not the cabin and misery. 479 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,920 It wasn't the a nice house in the mountains loaned to me by some generous 480 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,119 friends, and I would try to get out once a day and go for 481 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,400 a snowshoe and listen to a podcast or a book. I remember listening to 482 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,920 Trailed while snowshoeing through the woods. I do find that any kind of movement 483 00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:44,639 that takes me out of my mind and gets me into my body and the 484 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,239 present moment really helps. So I'm on a lot of mountain bike rides, 485 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,880 and I did a lot of yoga, and I did some breathing exercises and 486 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,599 meditation, and that helps. And then talking to a lot of my writer 487 00:34:54,679 --> 00:35:00,360 friends. I leaned on my community of writer friends a lot because they know 488 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:06,320 what it's like. Just writing a book is a really lonely and agonizing enterprise. 489 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,800 But writing a book about something like this, you have to look at 490 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,840 and process things that don't go into the book. You have to filter it. 491 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:15,920 And so if you think about what a filter does, it filters out 492 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:22,599 like pretty extreme stuff. I still feel like I'm trying to heal and cleanse 493 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:28,440 that stuff out. I had some nightmares, I didn't sleep very well. 494 00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:31,480 I wrote through nausea a lot of days, and sometimes it wasn't nausea from 495 00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:36,599 that particular subject matter, but I just was so emotionally stirred up that I 496 00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:39,960 felt nauseous a lot. And that's hard. It's a hard place to be 497 00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:45,159 for six months. I don't would I do it again. I feel like 498 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,719 this book really needed to exist and that it was worth it to write the 499 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,360 book of record, but it was not an enjoyable book. To write, 500 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,920 and it wasn't something that I felt like I was doing for me. I 501 00:35:54,960 --> 00:36:00,280 felt like it was I felt at times like a midwife for a lot of 502 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,000 people who would live this, and that it was my job to help them 503 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,760 midwife their story into existence in a way that was meaningful to others. Because 504 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:13,639 of that meaning and that service to others, there could be healing and some 505 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,519 sort of processing that leads to something like closure. I know that there is 506 00:36:17,559 --> 00:36:22,199 no closure for cases like this, but I feel like there was a lot 507 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:28,519 of pent up emotion and trauma that was released in the interviews that took place, 508 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,480 and I feel like there was some good stuff that came of that for 509 00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:35,800 the people who shared it. Maybe not everyone, but for a lot of 510 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:42,599 them. I would say I interviewed somewhere around twenty five police officers and twenty 511 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,639 five FBI agents, and I would say at least fifty percent of them wept 512 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,039 in the interview. And am I don't know. I guess there's a word 513 00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:52,960 now called mpath. I don't know. I just know that empathy is a 514 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,920 big It is my most valuable reporting tool for being able to write about pain 515 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,079 and trauma. And so I felt that pain and I carried it around with 516 00:37:02,119 --> 00:37:05,760 me. So I feel like I've just been carrying a lot of other people's 517 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,800 pain around and I don't know if I will ever fade away or be replaced 518 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,599 by something else. But yeah, it's a big cost. So anyone who 519 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,239 wants to do this work and wants to do it ethically needs to feel that 520 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,400 pain and needs to be prepared for the cost of it. It's an extraordinary 521 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,039 book. I told you this off air, but I'm willing to say it 522 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:29,119 again on air. It is extraordinary, and it's one of the most powerhouse, 523 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,440 dynamite true crime books that I have read, and anybody listening to this 524 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:37,559 podcast knows I read a ton of them. There was so much emotion flowing 525 00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,519 through it, and there were whole chapters where I sat and cried because it's 526 00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:45,079 such an upsetting case. But there is also and I think this alludes to 527 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:49,400 your title, there is light that comes out of it. And there is 528 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,960 so much good that came out of this, including that a young lady who 529 00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:58,480 was saved from being kidnapped because the law enforcement agency knew what to do, 530 00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:00,159 and they knew what to look for, and they knew had to find her. 531 00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:04,400 Oh, I cried. It was very impactful in a way that I 532 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:09,320 did not expect. The empathy flows not just between you and the people who 533 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,440 you interviewed for this book, but it's all through the book. It really 534 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,559 is just it's studying and moving. Thank you. That means a lot to 535 00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:21,400 me, because if a reader feels it and doesn't just think about it, 536 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,880 but if a reader feels it, that's my litmus test for have I done 537 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:29,360 my job? Do you feel something and do you feel something profound that matters 538 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,960 in some way and that means something to you? And that's what I want 539 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,440 to do with all my books. What stands in a Storm It's about the 540 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,360 fact that the things that terror or world apart reveal what holds us together. 541 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,800 And I think that I don't want to drag a reader through a sad story 542 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,840 unless I have something redemptive to give them in the end that is hopeful and 543 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,280 not in a Pollyannish way, but hopeful and real in a way that makes 544 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,639 them maybe face something they're facing in their own life with a new perspective and 545 00:38:57,679 --> 00:39:01,199 a new light. My I guest hope is that this story helps someone that 546 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,679 I will never meet in ways I can't imagine. My hope is that of 547 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:12,840 the thousands of investigators who have been taught by this case study in a class, 548 00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:16,559 that there will be more people, investigators and just everyday readers who might 549 00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:23,159 learn something that is helpful to them or someone else from this huge thing that 550 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:28,800 happened. Because there are beautiful moments in this tragedy, and most of all, 551 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,280 it's that people can weather the unthinkable and lift each other up. And 552 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,039 it's those acts of kindness and empathy that kind of make life endurable. Life 553 00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:42,639 has horrible things to throw at us. But the belief that again, beautiful 554 00:39:42,639 --> 00:39:45,800 things come from our brokenness. I think that is a hopeful message that I 555 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,480 would like to be at the center of all of my work. Will your 556 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,440 husband and father in law be toasting you or apologizing to you this thing giving 557 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,159 no no, I think they feel good about it. One thing I wanted 558 00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:07,360 to say about my father in law. This book would not have happened without 559 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,800 him, and to his credit, he did not exert or try to exert 560 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:16,039 any editorial control at all over the book. He opened the doors that would 561 00:40:16,119 --> 00:40:21,159 have been slam shut for any other journalist and basically just let me do my 562 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,920 job. And I did let him review the book, and he did not 563 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,400 try to make any changes other than one era. Oh this thing. It 564 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,039 didn't happen that day, It happened this other day. That is a wonderful 565 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,639 thing that I think I'm so grateful for, because I really worried that this 566 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:42,280 book. That I worried about criticisms of propaganda or being biased, and it 567 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,840 really worked hard to fact check everyone equally, including my father in law. 568 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,719 And interestingly, when I first pitched the book, I imagine that he was 569 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,760 going to be the central character, like in The Hero's Journey, and so 570 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,679 much of the book is based not just on interviews, but underneath the interviews 571 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,760 a layer of access to primary source documents that were generated in nineteen ninety three 572 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:08,679 were dialogue and facts and details were recounted very close to the actual event itself. 573 00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:13,840 When you're interviewing people thirty years later, their memory just doesn't have that 574 00:41:14,119 --> 00:41:15,920 kind of detail or that kind of accuracy. And as I'm going through these 575 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:21,119 primary source documents and starting to write the book, I realized that other characters 576 00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:23,480 got a lot more airtime than Eddie, and I felt really bad about that 577 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:29,480 because I thought he's the only one who saw over every silo. He was 578 00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:32,079 like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, knowing what's going on, pulling 579 00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:37,159 the levers. But then it was the people who were doing the actual interviews 580 00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:39,480 and writing the reports and leaving the paper trail who got airtime. And so 581 00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:44,400 I felt really awkward about that, And I remember having to sheepishly talk to 582 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,280 my mother in law suits wonderful, and be like, do you think he's 583 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,440 going to be upset about this? Writing the book is not about it's not 584 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,280 about pleasing other people, But as a daughter in law, I didn't want 585 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,960 him to be disappointed. And she said no, and he said no, 586 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,320 But yeah, it just because of that access, I got to see things 587 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,119 that journal that are not even part of the public record for journalists to foya, 588 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,199 like most foyas can even get you federal documents. Oh we know, 589 00:42:08,119 --> 00:42:12,000 yes, Yeah. It was an interesting kind of dynamic within this case. 590 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,280 Kim, you had said before we started this interview that you figured this was 591 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,760 going to be your last true crime book. First and last, you really 592 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,239 don't want to dig into this again. Is this is it for you? 593 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:29,360 This hurts so bad. I'm still not feeling well after this I'm still clawing 594 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,400 my way back to normal. It was so costly for me that I don't 595 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,800 think. I don't think I want to. I've already turned down a book 596 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,760 and a podcast. It just I don't know. It would have to be 597 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,480 the right kind of thing that that I felt like, if I don't do 598 00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:45,239 this, it won't get done, and that'll be a travesty. And that's 599 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,320 how I felt about this book. Is if I don't write this, I 600 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,000 don't know if anyone else can because of the skills and the access that combination. 601 00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:54,559 Yes, other people have the skills, but yeah, I don't know. 602 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:00,760 Please, I want to staunch the flow of offers to write the next 603 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,679 true crime story. I would like to write about fishing. Let me put 604 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,400 it out to the universe. Fishing and river trips. Okay, the fishing 605 00:43:09,519 --> 00:43:15,599 doesn't have necessarily have a happy ending for the fish we catch and release. 606 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,639 That is true. Then they get to go home and tell their friends this 607 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,599 crazy thing happened to me, and I'm living to tell the tale. I 608 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:27,920 don't want to jump to any conclusions about how the fishing story ends. The 609 00:43:28,079 --> 00:43:32,119 book is called in Light of All Darkness Inside the Polyclass Kidnapping and the Search 610 00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:37,159 for America's Child out on October the third. Kim, thank you for joining 611 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,280 us, and really, more importantly, thank you for writing the book. 612 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,960 It's amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you for getting it. And 613 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:45,440 if you want to talk to Eddie, I can still. He's happy to 614 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,159 talk with you. You might not need to, but just know he's willing 615 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,760 and the poly Class Foundation is willing to. Oh, excellent, we would 616 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,559 love to talk to them. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us 617 00:43:55,639 --> 00:44:08,920 for this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind 618 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:15,039 Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive 619 00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:21,400 producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 620 00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:25,400 Our theme music is by Kevin mcleoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in 621 00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:30,440 partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 622 00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:35,880 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on 623 00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:39,639 Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas 624 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:45,039 five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.