WEBVTT

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You got ready, Chuck O'Kelly,
and it's been known for many years.

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Supplying UFK research. You're specializing INTELLIVITGC
involvement in multiple assassinations, PROMA again and

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other guild of criminal operations in the
twentieth and twenty first centuries. Street March

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the o' chile effect is sponsored by
Wall Street, Windows dot Com and listeners

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like you Now and Now, the
most Underrated Noise and All Media check Olly

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December seven, twenty twenty three.
Allegedly according to that thing we call a

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calendar, and guess what, we're
live on Ocelli dot com just about five

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minutes after the hour, getting a
late start, but if you're hearing the

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podcast, you don't care because you're
playing it on your time schedule. Right

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anyway, It's Thursday, Thursday,
and uh yeah, it's been an interesting

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week so far. I haven't gotten
out Albert Lanier's piece from last night,

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but there is going to be an
accompanying article with it, so a few

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things will get published tonight on the
overnight, I'm sure. But it's good

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to be alive on a Thursday.
Why because most Thursdays I either have Mike

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Swanson or Larry Hancock with me,
and thankfully I've got Mike Swanson with me

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tonight. Haven't had him on in
about a month, I think, Uh,

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geez, yeah, because we had
Dallas. We had the break before

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Dallas, we had the break after
Dallas. I was sick. I think

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Mike was traveling. So the man
behind Wall Street Window dot com, the

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author of the War State and also
why the Vietnam War, which was interesting

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because we didn't have enough books at
the conference to make people happy. There

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was people with money. We didn't
have books for them at the conference at

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Lancer. But I'm gonna let Mike
tell you a little bit about that and

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some other stuff. Plus, Hey, I published an article from Mike what

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about maybe a week ago now,
I guess it's been a week. I

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don't know. Time is flying by
here on the front of the webs,

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so you might notice that as well. Uh. And it's not because he's

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a sponsor that I published this.
I found it interesting, the document he

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found, the article he wrote,
and all of that. As per usual,

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I appreciate Mike's writing. Uh,
He's not just here because he's a

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sponsor and and also easy to talk
to. H he's here because he's definitely

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somebody I like you guys to hear
from, and really happy to have the

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one and only Mike Swanson with me. How you doing tonight, Mike,

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Oh, I'm doing good. It's
great to talk with you. It's been

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uh, I guess three weeks since
we met in Dallas. It was a

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great trip. Oh yeah, well, geez, that was that was three

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weeks ago. And then, like
I said, it took me, geez,

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almost three weeks to recover from the
trip. Did you get your called

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a lot of people? No?
No, I was fine. I mean,

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as I found out from you,
multiple people got sick and one person

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had this the COVID, and I
was with them Sunday after you left.

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Yeah, about ninety minutes, sitting
right next to him at the bar.

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So yeah, I didn't. Maybe
I already got it because well maybe my

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mom. Yeah, maybe your system. Maybe your system was already prepared.

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Because there's actually there's actually two people
that I can name. I'm not going

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to name anybody because I don't want
to bring it out. But the thing

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is, there's actually two people that
that I'm not sure if it's my business

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to name it, you know,
privacy and whatnot. But what I'm saying

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is is that privately, I've heard
from two people that they said they tested

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positive for the Corona And now there's
also a couple other people that said they

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caught this or that on the trip, and me and B Pete both were

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pretty ill h for weeks. So
you know, I had what I think

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is a flu. It wasn't Corona
because I didn't, you know, lose

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the sense of taste entirely. I
didn't have the Corona symptoms, so I

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don't think it was it. But
I definitely got some kind of flu from

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there, and and somebody else said
they had a stomach bug after going to

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Dallas. I'm like, WHOA.
I guess that hotel was even worse than

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I thought, which, by the
way, I did not enjoy the hotel.

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You might have listened to that episode
what we did right after the trip

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where I talked about it a little
bit with B Pete, But yeah,

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I did. I did actually tell
me I'm lying about any of the stuff

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I said in that in that podcast. I'm not going to talk bad about

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the hotel. I'm not gonna say
nothing good about it either. See That's

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what I mean. It was it's
a strange place. Mike me, like,

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they just throw up some weird art
stuff to jack up the price.

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It's what they do, you know, that's what they did. Okay,

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But look, Mike, Mike is
a nice guy. And I was talking

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to somebody. Somebody asked me recently, what's it like to hang out with

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Mike Swanson. I said, it's
just it's just like the guy you hear

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on air. He's a nice guy's
calm, he's you know, good natured.

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He doesn't even want to say bad
stuff, even if bad stuff was

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happening there. I want to say
bad stuff about the hotel. I love

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it. I will, I don't
care. Uh. I hope they hold

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it somewhere else next year because hopefully
you'll you'll you know, you know,

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it looks like I might be able
to go back. So you know,

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if you're going to go back,
and I'm going to go back, I

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mean I might MC again. Maybe
maybe you'll do a presentation, maybe you'll

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just go as a spectator. I
don't know whatever is up to you,

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but I definitely would like to,
uh again, feature your books at my

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table and see if we can,
you know, get get some sales.

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This time, because I gave away
some of your books and uh, and

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then people wanted the war state and
I didn't have copies and there was nothing

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I could do about it. People
requesting it. And in fact, one

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lady came up to you right after
your presentation, right, Uh, do

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you want to tell that story real
fast? Yes, she wanted. I

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had, you know, a copy
in my hands at the Vietnam both books

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actually, because I'd just given the
presentation that brought them to it, and

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was I was planning on looking through
quoting parts of but I have time to

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do that, But so I sold. I gave her those two copies that

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actually, and then later in the
day she wanted to buy them. So

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she gave me twenty bucks for him, or maybe twenty bucks apiece for him

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or something she did. I'll tell
you what it was. You you were

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customed, Well, she gave me
twenty a piece. I gave you one

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of them. Yeah. What happened
was because I was I was like,

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hey, look I told you this
is a great book and everything, and

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you're like, well, look,
since you're out here selling my books.

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You she gave you forty bucks for
the two books, which is more than

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she would have paid on Amazon,
but she was like, I don't want

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to. I don't want to go
through Amazon. I just want the books,

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can you know? So I'm going
to give you the money even though

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you gave her the books, which
was funny. Now, a couple of

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other people I know took your book
off my table and probably threw a dollar

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in my tip yard because I didn't
specify they had to put in any specific

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amount of money. So I lost
money on a bunch of things there,

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believe it, all that stuff I
printed. I mean you saw the stuff

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I gave away too, right?
Oh yeah, well next time, you

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know we go. If we go
next year, I'll have a lot more

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copies. I'll send you a bunch
before, I mean, make sure I

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have some. We'll figure out an
arrangement on it. But I mean,

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I'm thinking even if I got stuff
on the table that I can sell for

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ten bucks, I'll do that next
time because that's a reasonable amount of money

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for anything, and that's what I'm
gonna do. But anyhow, forget about

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strategies and on my seller's table,
which didn't go well this time, but

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I'm sure we got plenty of people
with different logos out there. You know,

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your logos included on that weird compilation
shirt I did with the other podcasters

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too. Oh great, yeah,
so I mean the Wall Street window logo.

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It had to be on there,
you know, with Doug Campbell involved,

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because he was like, hey,
look, you got to put Mike's

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I said, of course, I
got Mike's logo on there. You kidding

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me. He's my main sponsor,
so you know, so you were on

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there. His podcast artwork is on
there, and Rob's also on the front

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of the shirt, and then the
back is all the answer information. And

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it turns out it was the only
t for the event because Lancer was trying

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to get T shirts made and didn't
have them ready in time. So here

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we are. Anyways, so away
from the merchandise, let's get into this.

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But I thought it was funny that
that lady came back and literally paid

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you for the books even after you
gave them to her. So and yes,

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indeed, Mike turned around and said, well, here, since you've

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been pushing my books all week,
and he gave me one of the twenties,

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lady gave him forty bucks. Anyways, I thought it was great.

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Anyhow, well, you had a
couple of listeners that came too, and

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it was neat to meet them.
Yeah, that was a lot of fun

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and a couple of them. It
was funny because, like I said,

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a couple of the people that listened
to the show were like, oh,

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I was hoping to get a copy
of The War State from you, because

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I had like acquired maybe two of
them, you know, through different things.

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I just happened to have two copies
and I gave them away. Like

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I said, I was giving stuff
away, and I gave away your Vietnam

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book to people because I really want
I think if some people read it,

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gonna recommend it, and you're gonna
wind up with more sales. But anyways,

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yeah, so that was going on, and I really do support the

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idea that people need to read this
stuff. There's stuff in your book that's

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still to this day, is not
really in everybody else's books. Nobody writes

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exactly like you. And I'm not
just kissing up to you because you're my

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sponsor again, but it's just it's
a simple fact. Anyway, let's get

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to that. Because you did a
presentation at Lancer. I don't know if

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you want to talk about that,
but you did also do this article,

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which is which is interesting because again
a document that I don't recall anybody else

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pointing any attention onto ever spotlighting before. Obviously it exists, it's in the

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archives, but wasn't one of those
things that caught other people's attention. So

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maybe you could talk about that a
little bit. And again it is published

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on the front page at o'helly dot
com. It's also on Wall Street Window

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dot com and at the Assassination I
always screw this up, the assassination,

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the archives page, the A R
R C or what. Let me find

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that real fast because they published it
as well. Yeah, so let me

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find that real fast. And you
tell people about what it is that you

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chose to write this article about,
Like, why is it that you found

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this important? Just you know somebody
hasn't seen it yet, Mike, explain

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it to them. Well, before
I get the article, I want to

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I want to bring up I thought
I've had since the concert with you,

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okay about the assassination, and we'll
get into the article. But I've told

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I know, I've told not on
maybe on the air, I don't know,

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but I know i've told you and
Carmine and other people that I always

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figured that the person who was the
so called mastermind, if you want to

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use that phrase, would be someone
that's probably we you know, really a

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relative of no, not one of
the famous people, and we probably don't

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know who the person is, and
if we did, we wouldn't recognize them,

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you know, that probably be an
obscure person, not like in other

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words like that, I don't.
Let's just say for argument's sake that,

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uh, well, among the four
of us, I would say that Larry

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Hancock, Okay, who is the
guy who I would defer to in this

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grouping more than no offense to you, Mike, But I would defer to

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Larry on the shoot. But Larry
agrees as well as Carmine, myself and

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you, we all have this point
of view. And I don't know if

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you originated it or you were the
first one to say it, but I

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gotta say this is something that we
all agree on, which is, if

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there is indeed a singular mastermind,
or if there is just like a group

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of two or three people, the
likelihood that those names or that one name

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is well known it is one of
the ones that's been focused on, is

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very low. It is in all
likelihood somebody whose name you don't know,

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because really the most powerful people protect
themselves, they insulate themselves from being known.

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It's it's the old see again,
I'll point to organized crime in reality,

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the guys who really ran things quite
well and had the largest organized crime

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empires. You didn't know their names. You didn't know who the boss was.

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You just didn't. I mean,
you had an idea about the family

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name or what, but you didn't
really know them. They were not,

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you know, in the newspapers written
out. Yeah, I'm not I've never

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really thought about organized crime. That's
not what I'm thinking about. But it

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might be a good parallel. But
yeah, that's my that's my idea.

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I'm saying that if you apply that
idea, would it be something like this

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where but I don't know who the
you know, the organized crime bosses are,

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but just say the boss, the
family boss. Uh, it's not

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some of Maybe there's a scenario where
yeah, she's not running everything, he's

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not micromanaging everything. That's true.
Yeah, I think you know what from

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what I stand from movies is that
people come to them with their problems and

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then they are told what to do
or given told what the solution is right.

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So but that's the point. It's
okay, you may know the guy

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who's the family name is under and
that kind of thing, but you know

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who you don't know is the guys
who actually get stuff done, right.

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Those names are not I mean yet, we learned about Sammy the Bull Gravano,

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but believe me, Sammy the Bull
was a name that wasn't in the

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newspapers at for a long time.
You wouldn't have known who Sammy Gravano was

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when he was really really powerful.
When these guys are really seriously powerful and

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in action and getting things done and
the body counts are really climbing, the

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FBI doesn't know who they are.
The newspapers don't know who they are.

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And that's the same way this kind
of you know, spook stuff works in

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you know, in these kind of
operations, you don't really you know who

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Angleton is, but you don't know
all the guys that really got stuff done.

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Like even you're somebody who studied this
stuff deeply. If I said to

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you, okay, who was Angleton's
guy in France? You don't know that

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off the top of your Yeah.
If I said to you, well,

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who was Angleton's guy, you know, as far as Mexico goes, you

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know, outside not the CIH station
chief, but I mean his counterintelligence people

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who were his active officers in Mexico, you'd still go uh, because you

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don't know. See, that's the
thing. The people that are really getting

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the job done are not well known, because that's part of getting the job

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done. You're not calling attention to
yourself. It's the unseen that is the

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most dangerous. And I think that
applies in organized crime as well as in

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let's just call it the spook world
in general, in intelligence work. Right,

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So if we are to contend that
this was some sort of black op,

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that this was some sort of military
intel operation, that this was some

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sort of conglomeration of criminal elements plus
some sort of again let's just call it

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what what you know, the most
general basic thing we could the spook world

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coming together. Well, here it
is. You're not going to know the

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names of the movers and shakers for
the most part, and even the guys

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that they turned around and studied that
you know, they've forced down our throats.

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Now through the literature, and again
you ask common people on the ground.

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You know, most people who are
not really truly occupied with this sort

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of thing, and don't get into
the niche research of one of these circumstances,

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the assassination or the CIA, or
the development of the intelligence agencies in

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America. You hand him a name, they might not James Jesus Angleton.

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They go what they don't even know
what you're talking about when you talk about

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people like that, you know,
so when you get into it, yeah,

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it would very likely be an unknown
name. And that's the way the

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operators would be on all levels,
I think, which is the important part

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of this. So and I agree
with you. I've always agreed with you

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on this, and like I said, between the four of us, having

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been talking so much over almost you
know, ten years now together, I

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would say that none of us has
ever disagreed with this idea. That really

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truly, if you were to pin
down a mastermind, if you were to

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pin down the main organizer, if
you were to pin down the guy who

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gave the orders, it would in
all likelihood be some name you never heard,

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some name you might have run across
somewhere but not have given it a

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second thought. Or it would be
a fake pseudonym, you know, something

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like this it's not going to be
the you know, the people that run

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around screaming Alan Dallas, Alan Dallas. They clearly have no clue what's going

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on because they're going to the most
obvious name. They're going to the CIA

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director. And true, Dulles is
a key player in many things at a

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certain point, but at the point
in time that he was really truly powerful.

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Fact is I don't think anybody knew
his name, you know what I'm

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saying. So what do you think
of that, Mike, No, that's

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the line of thought that I share
my what kind of one of the things

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that influenced me in thinking that way
was I've read lots of history books and

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I've read I've read a bunch of
books about Hitler in Nottz, Germany,

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and there's a lot of academic studies
into how the Holocaust evolved, and they've

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been able because of the all the
records that were captured, you know,

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of the Nazi records, they're pretty
well able to reconstruct of how it evolved,

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who was making the decisions, and
who came up with ideas in that.

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What's interesting to me isn't so much
the event in this discussion, isn't

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so much the event of the Holocaust. But if you think of Nazi Germany

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as being a national security state,
that was something like a covert operation.

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And the record shows that Hitler did
There was no meeting where Hitler, you

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know, laid out this plan of
I want to kill everyone in gas chambers

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and do all this stuff instead and
either did hist his the henchpin right below

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them, such as Himmler, who
was in charge of the SS, And

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it was the SS that really carried
out those operations. Instead, it was

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people under him that came up with
different ideas and then presenting it upwards and

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then they got approved. So and
even though World War two and and and

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the Nazi you know, the rise
and Paul the third Reichsman studied over and

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over. Yeah, here's the funny
part. A lot of these people people

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you know, I don't remember their
names. I mean, they're they're mentioning

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a couple of books, but they're
not right famous. See here's a point

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that pops in my mind immediately,
is that you would admit that the brown

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Shirts, right, they were sort
of the street level bullies. They played

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a significant role in keeping the public, you know, in a certain check,

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right, because they were out there
on the streets literally beaten down to

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centers and stuff like that. So
the thing is they were essential to that

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operation. At a certain point they
dissolved the brown Shirts almost And the thing

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is, now here's here's the fun
part. Who was the guy who actually

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was the brain behind the brown Shirts? Most people, even that study history,

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don't even recognize the guy's name who
was in charge of that, which

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was an essential element to how they
were able to bring the entirety of the

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German society. Everybody goes, well, how do the Germans let this happen?

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But I'll tell you partially how it's
because of the work of the brown

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Shirts laying things out in the beginning. And there was a guy named Rome

286
00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:26.400
who's that was his last name in
charge. Most people, even if they

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think they're you know, history buffs, don't even know that. And that's

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00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:32.640
the funny part about this is that
even these guys who are at the top

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of the organization, Now you or
I I'm gonna stump us both right now.

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00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.799
Who is Rome's lieutenant? Though?
Do you know who Rome actually sent

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out to do these things? To
give the orders to coordinate the different brown

292
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Shirt units on the street and you're
kind of historian. A lot of other

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historians, I bet you don't know
it off the top of their head.

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They got to turn to a book. And I don't know it off the

295
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.319
top of my head. Right now, I'm exposing myself here as somebody who's

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not well read in the guy who
is actually the responsible mechanic. There again,

297
00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:10.200
his name not at the forefront of
discussion of literature, et cetera.

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Right or wrong. Yeah, I
can't think of who it is off the

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top of my head. I'm just
saying, Look, it's just an example.

300
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But please go ahead tell us about
this article though, and uh,

301
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:25.400
and go go ahead. I agree
with the thing about this line of thought,

302
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though, is that I'd always thought
we may not be able to know

303
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:37.400
who the name you know names are, But at the com that was leaving

304
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:42.480
the conference, that's something I've changed
my mind about. So, and that's

305
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:48.599
from talking with David Boyan. So
you see, I think it's knowable.

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00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:52.039
It's but it is a matter of
fact that I think we're going to dig

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00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.440
through all of the other prominent names
before we really get to the real guy,

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because you have to understand how the
infrastructure works. And by the way,

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00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.440
it's the Assassination Archives and Research Center
that we were referring to before,

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00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:10.359
which is the A A r clibrary
dot org website. And I put the

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link in the chatroom at Ocelli dot
com. I'll included with the show notes.

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So yeah, I just want to
let people know that that it was

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printed over there. It was printed
at Wall Street window and also Onocelli dot

314
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com. So sorry, Mike,
I wanted to give full credit credits.

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00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.720
Do go ahead. The thing about
uh, what I what I think is

316
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:36.000
might be starting might happen with the
JFK research community is all these documents have

317
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:41.319
come out over the past couple of
years, and I know there's stuff.

318
00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:48.359
Not everything has been released, but
it may be that a lot uh me

319
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:56.720
put it this way. So I
looked through some of the north Woods documents

320
00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:03.640
now and they've been out, and
uh and I saw in the in these

321
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:11.880
documents the names I've never seen before
and one that I've been looking for or

322
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:22.559
wanted to know for several years,
and that is who specifically was So that

323
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:30.000
Northwoods thing that's talked about a lot, the planning of that was done by

324
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.440
staff of one hundred people, right, Uh, that were members of the

325
00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:38.920
Joint Chief Joint Staff under the Joint
Jesus Staff, one hundred people in this

326
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:45.000
one division. Well, what I've
wanted to know and haven't been able to

327
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:52.000
find out, was who was the
person in charge of that group? You

328
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:57.680
know, who was really who was
it? And his name is in uh

329
00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:03.920
some of these docums. So now
I know who that person is. That's

330
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:12.000
just one example. And now we
could get to a so what, But

331
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:17.200
it takes a lot of people looking
at this stuff. I just tell you,

332
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:22.200
I just want to tell the David
Boyans story. So I've written two

333
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:27.400
introductions to two possible books. One
is just about the Kenny assassination. One

334
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:33.079
see another Vietnam book. And in
the Vietnam book, I think I actually

335
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:38.160
I may have read it on the
show or talked about it at least what

336
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:45.720
it starts out talking about Lucian Conein. And there's a file that was released

337
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:55.720
in the JFK collection that is a
debriefing of CIA guy who in the debriefing

338
00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:00.680
mentions some stuff about Coneine, and
I use that in this draft introduction.

339
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:07.960
I wrote, well, in that
brief in that so I've read this file

340
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:12.200
and I'm using it and written about
it. But in that discussion, he

341
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:17.920
tells the person interviewing him, you
should go talk to this guy. He

342
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:26.440
knows more about what was going on
at the Cuba Miami station that the day

343
00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:33.240
he was running. Did I do
well? You know, I just read

344
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:38.480
right by that. Well, David
Boyan is really interested in this person and

345
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:45.279
told me why he's significant. They
were the boss of David Morales. So

346
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:52.119
David Morales is someone written about in
a lot of books. So is his

347
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:57.279
boss or the head of the head
of the station was Ted Shackley. And

348
00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:03.240
then and then there's a Dave Morales
who's written a lot about. But there

349
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:10.680
was a person right in between Shakley
and Morales, and that's this guy David

350
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:15.519
Boyan is interested in and and I
saw his name in a document, read

351
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:22.720
right by it. He's a very
significant person. He was head of operations

352
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:27.720
on that station. They have different
divisions, so like if there's people doing

353
00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.119
sabotage or doing operations, this guy
was overseeing them. Well see, and

354
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:37.000
this guy might be the chief,
the chief of operations for what they might

355
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.000
call the Cuba Project at the time, right, because that was the thing

356
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.759
they had catch all names for some
of this stuff and then they had specific

357
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:49.359
names for it. And well this
guy was working good. So this guy

358
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:53.200
was working the jam wave station.
He was chief of operations at that station.

359
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.039
Oh, he was the chief of
jam wave entirely. Okay, no,

360
00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.079
no, no, Shackley was the
chief of the station. Okay,

361
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.960
okay, yeah, no, I
know that, But I mean the way

362
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:07.799
these things were working was that that
was like a c A station you know,

363
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:11.799
in any other country, but this
one was in Miami JM wave.

364
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:17.000
Ted Shackley was in charge of the
station. This guy David Boyan was interested

365
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:22.319
is interested in was you know this
Ted Shackley is in charge of a staff

366
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:26.839
of people I'd say five or six
divisions or so. This guy was in

367
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:33.200
charge of operations, and then Morales
would be working for him. Now Shackley

368
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:41.559
was answering up to the CIA headquarters. Yeah, under Desmond Fitzgerald was overseeing

369
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.519
him. And then you know,
I get I guess the CIA director,

370
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:49.880
someone underneath the CI director would be
his boss. Well, he's got to

371
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.519
answer to a couple of people above
him. Yeah, who are you know?

372
00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:59.240
Who are all eventually supposedly answerable to
the the head of the c I

373
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.880
A right I mean, this is
the command structure. But what's weird is,

374
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:07.119
again you got a guy who might
be his technical job title is he's

375
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.599
operations chief for that station or whatever, but he could have responsibility specific sub

376
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:17.440
operations where like, okay, you're
you're also the guy who's going to handle

377
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.920
all the Cuba projects. Maybe you're
the guy who's going to handle monitoring the

378
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.680
communists in Florida, you know whatever, Brian, there could be different things.

379
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:29.839
You're going to be part of the
co intel pro thing that monitors are

380
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:34.839
domestic subversives, you know whatever.
They have other so they have a job

381
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:38.920
title and then they have job responsibilities. Yeah, two things. Yeah,

382
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:44.559
good to give you an example what
you're talking about. So there's another figure.

383
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:52.160
Some people are interested in. A
Colonel Howard Burris right now. He

384
00:28:52.319 --> 00:29:00.920
was Lennon Johnson's military advisor. And
it turned and I was reading a book

385
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:08.240
which said quoted another book in which
the quote was incorrect, and it said

386
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:15.480
that he was on the planning staff
the Joint chiefs of Staff too, under

387
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:19.680
an Air Force general. Well,
I look that all up and it turned

388
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:25.799
out he was working for this Air
Force general, but not on the Joint

389
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:30.559
chief Staff but for the Air Force
staff. So the boy is he had

390
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:36.880
two jobs. The Burroughs guy was
working on the on the Air Force staff

391
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.319
and working as Johnson's military advisor.
Well see, but that's the point is

392
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:44.960
they have it. Okay, look, let's let's clear this all up.

393
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.480
In some cases, they have a
job that is their main job, and

394
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:53.160
then they have other responsibilities that are
attached to that job. Now that's one

395
00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.200
case. Another case here when we
get into this stuff, is you have

396
00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:02.000
people who have jobs in quotes with
the State Department, right, but they're

397
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:06.279
actually CIA people. They collect a
paycheck from the State Department. They have

398
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:11.039
a cover job, and there are
some jobs that are interchangeable on paper,

399
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:15.319
and then there's other jobs that are
not. Right, Like you know,

400
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.400
in the case of the Joann Edese
thing that happened with Congress, this guy's

401
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:23.240
the liaison for the CIA to the
HSCA. Okay, that is his current

402
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:30.400
job responsibility. But was that,
you know, really his job. No,

403
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.519
he had another job, another paymaster
and somebody else he was reporting to.

404
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.960
You have this stuff going on,
not just in black ops, but

405
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.119
in general operations. There's a whole
bunch of people that are attached to these

406
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.200
different embassies in foreign nations, right, And they're there allegedly as part of

407
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.400
the State Department, to be part
of the Diplomatic Corps, to be part

408
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:57.440
of the liaisons, to be part
of negotiations, right, And meanwhile they're

409
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:03.400
actually there as spies. They have
a job title, they have a paper

410
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.079
job title, and it gets very
confusing. Wouldn't you admit that this is

411
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:11.359
a bit of a confusing subject for
most people who are to share. You

412
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:14.000
have a job, you have a
job title, you have a job description,

413
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.839
and you might have responsibilities that go
along with that job description. It's

414
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:22.720
not that simple when you start to
get into these kinds of areas with the

415
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.960
State Department, with the spook world, any which way you want to go,

416
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:32.640
whether it's CIAOSSO n I, any
of this stuff. You may have

417
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:37.319
an on paper job that has responsibilities, then an off the books job,

418
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:40.960
a cover job. I mean,
there's lots of different things going on here

419
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.680
to where you could develop multiple paper
trails. Like you said, you got

420
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:49.640
this guy who is being described as
incorrectly as being part of the Joint Chiefs,

421
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:55.319
but he's not. He's part of
the Air Force Brass Staff, right.

422
00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.640
And sometimes these people get named as
secretaries under certain group. They're not

423
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:06.559
secretaries, okay, they are read
in as secretaries so they can be part

424
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:13.000
of being given access to some of
this stuff, right because technically they're supposed

425
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:15.000
to be recording things. They're the
aid for this person. They're the aid

426
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.519
for that person. And meanwhile,
whether that person knows it or not,

427
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.279
they could be serving to masters.
Sure they're behaving as their aid. They're

428
00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:27.319
recording stuff, they're keeping documents,
making sure that all things that are supposed

429
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.960
to be forwarded to the general,
the admiral, whatever are properly sent to

430
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:36.000
them. But also they're keeping track
of certain things and making sure to funnel

431
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:40.079
some of that information back to their
other boss. Right. So this kind

432
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.480
of thing goes on, and it's
hard to sort of parse it all out

433
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:49.279
for somebody, isn't it. I
mean I'm trying to go to I'm trying

434
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:53.279
to just like weave through this verbally
with you because it could sound very confusing

435
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:59.359
to the average listener. No,
oh sure, sure, okay, So

436
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.920
anyway to bring it back to where
we were, and I find it interesting

437
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:09.119
and the philosophy overall about the Kennedy
assassination Foreshore I think that it's because we

438
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:14.319
need to constantly refine what it is
we're looking at. Indeed, we can

439
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:19.000
get those names, but they're not
likely to be the ones that we've run

440
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.319
across and tripped over one hundred times
already. I think that it's going to

441
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:25.079
require refinement, much like Larry Hancock
is saying, we need to reevaluate our

442
00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:30.599
view of Lee Rby Oswall, for
instance, because new information has become available.

443
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.480
Certain things that were mysterious are no
longer mysterious, certain things that were

444
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:38.079
formerly unknown or now known, etc. Etc. I think the same thing

445
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:45.400
stands even when you're looking at the
proper and possibly improper structures of these different

446
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:52.039
classified organizations, these different national security
organizations one way or another. I think

447
00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:57.759
all of these things require constant refinement
and reevaluation. What do you think,

448
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:02.480
Oh, oh, they do,
and I suspect what's gonna happen. You

449
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:08.159
know, we've seen in the case
in the in this historical case, topic

450
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.880
changes in what people think, you
know, an evolution of understanding over this

451
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:21.559
as more information has come out,
and you know, from after the I'm

452
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:23.280
not gonna go all the way to
the beginning, but just we'll just start

453
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:29.159
use the JAF the period of time
when that JFK movie came out as one

454
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:34.960
point of reference. You know,
after that, Uh, there's a better

455
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:42.159
understanding of Kennedy's foreign policy. First
in regards to Vietnam. Uh, the

456
00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.079
movie really drew a lot of attention
to the work of John Newman and even

457
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:53.760
even some of the Fletcher Proudy stuff
uh in Peterdale Scott really but then a

458
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:59.800
deeper understanding even beyond just that,
of things such as the Cuban missile crisis,

459
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:07.039
the the nuclear arms race, Kennedy's
views to the Third World, more

460
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:12.239
details on his dealings in Cuba.
I don't know if it was known that,

461
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:17.400
you know, he was had a
two track policy sort of with Castro

462
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:22.840
and had some peace viewers going out
today of the assassination, and he had

463
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:27.559
a back channel, he had a
back chack channels. And what's also interesting

464
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:30.519
is, again in that time period
you're talking about, in the nineteen nineties,

465
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:35.880
you see the release of some very
interesting information like in book form you

466
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:39.719
have Ordeal in Africa and some other
stuff which actually showed the American people who

467
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:45.280
weren't necessarily aware unless they were really
really well studied on you know, all

468
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:49.480
of John F. Kennedy's history,
which most people weren't that he had a

469
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.239
very different view, had different experiences
that actually traveled, you know, to

470
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:58.519
Southeast Asia to some of these places
to take a look at things for himself

471
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.960
at a certain point when he was
congressman. So those things went on,

472
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:08.079
even the work of say, you
know in JFK and the unspeakable interesting piece

473
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:12.800
of work. Now that's after the
turn of the century, and we hear

474
00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:16.679
from you know, oh my goodness, I'm trying to think doctor Douglas,

475
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:21.599
James Douglas. We hear from James
Douglas about that, and the very interesting

476
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:27.280
communications that went on with various members
of the Kennedy family even you know,

477
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:30.880
So there's all kinds of interesting aspects
here which started to become known. Now

478
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:36.280
you have Ordeal in Africa. You
have people's re examination of the policies in

479
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:40.719
Vietnam because certain things have become declassified. You have Northwoods coming out, You

480
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:45.639
have you know, showing a very
different view of what was going on with

481
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:50.239
Cuba, which is not necessarily as
clear cut as what was the public image.

482
00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:53.719
Right. You have again Newman's work, where the idea was, hey,

483
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.239
you know, people want to blame
well, Kennedy started the war in

484
00:36:57.320 --> 00:37:01.199
Vietnam, Well, yes and no. And also he was looking to get

485
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:06.400
us out of there until guess when
the week end of the assassination seems like,

486
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:09.159
you know, right then and there, and it just so happens that

487
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:13.679
three weeks earlier, you know,
the president and his brother were murdered as

488
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:17.559
well, you know, of South
Vietnam. All of this stuff created a

489
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:22.639
new context through which you had to
look at this through an entirely different lens,

490
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:28.039
and that gives you a new idea. Now again, that shifts all

491
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:30.480
of the sands on which everything is
standing, right, the political climate,

492
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:36.079
the behind the scenes stuff, his
communications with even Cruise Steff behind behind the

493
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:42.920
wall of secrecy, and indeed what
went on during the Cuban missile crisis.

494
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:47.119
I got to look back to see
when they actually published the transcripts. But

495
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:52.039
you remember they published what was it
called thirteen days in May or something like

496
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:57.480
that, No, thirteen days or
whatever, it was the two period of

497
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.519
the Cuban missile crisis they actually put
out the transfer to the tapes. I

498
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:04.039
got to go look that up real
fast to see what year that was.

499
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:09.920
But this all got read into the
literature around the same time period, and

500
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.760
this is pretty much when I was
coming into the assassination in the first place,

501
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.800
right right at the end of my
high school years, into the time

502
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:22.360
when JFK gets released and we have
the outcry for release the records, release

503
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:27.519
the records being joined by people getting
angry about that slide at the end of

504
00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:31.800
the JFK movie, which caused the
JFK Records Collection Act to get passed in

505
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:37.199
the first place, which had other
results. Right. So this is a

506
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:40.599
real domino effect if you think about
it, and this should have led to

507
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:47.280
a change of ideas and people had
a lot more access to what was really

508
00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:52.519
going on behind the scenes, in
front of the scenes, the reality of

509
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:55.159
what was being moved around. I
mean, I doubt that people had any

510
00:38:55.239 --> 00:39:01.039
clue publicly about the fact that we
came very close to a nuclear war over

511
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:06.119
you know what, not just Vietnam
where they were saying, let's use nukes,

512
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:10.119
not just well, maybe we'll have
to nuke Cuba, but how about

513
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:15.440
this East and West Germany about came
to military blows and people didn't know about

514
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:21.519
that at all. That was like
kept out of the public's view. Wasn't

515
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.159
it. So, I mean,
there is a lot that was revealed I

516
00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:30.880
would say between the twenty fifth anniversary
and the fiftieth anniversary that changes the entire

517
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:37.280
view that anybody could have of what
was really going on at the time of

518
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:42.679
the assassination in geopolitics, in domestic
politics as well, because there's a lot

519
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:46.079
of stuff there too. We of
course learned more about cointelpro learned more about

520
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:51.199
the surveillance, the struggles there,
the different things going on. There was

521
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:54.360
the public face of it, the
face offs with the different Southern governors over

522
00:39:54.519 --> 00:40:00.880
universities and segregation and so on and
so forth, which Kenny was in point.

523
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:06.199
And then Johnson, I think begrudgingly
most likely picked up the banner for

524
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:08.679
after his death because he had the
power to do it. And we know

525
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:14.039
that even based on some of the
laws that were passed through Congress afterwards,

526
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:19.559
right the Landmark legislation, the civil
rights stuff that Johnson was able to push

527
00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:24.559
through literally almost riding on the back
of Kennedy's corpse because of this was Kennedy's

528
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:29.800
work. We should finish it out
of respect to him. Was definitely something

529
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:32.599
that shifted some people that were being
hardline about it, right, So,

530
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.599
I mean there is a whole revelation
that occurs here when we're starting to get

531
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:40.440
a better viewpoint of these things.
And that's why, you know, I

532
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:43.440
really hate it when people say,
well, it doesn't matter what they did

533
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:46.039
classify, it doesn't matter what they
released, doesn't change anything. Yes,

534
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:52.039
it does. It gives us a
much better view of what was actually happening,

535
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:57.519
you know, both behind the scenes
and in front of these scenes and

536
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:00.760
what was being shown to the public. You now get an idea about what

537
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:02.960
was being allowed to be shown to
the public and what was being withheld.

538
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.519
So this is extremely educational all the
way around, I think. Anyway,

539
00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:13.800
in that entire spirit, Mike,
I want to get to your article,

540
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.039
because where do we start with the
assassination. I was looking at this.

541
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:21.440
They did a mini series, by
the way, and every streaming service out

542
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:23.280
there. I don't know if you're
aware of this, but pretty much every

543
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:30.039
streaming service released something to commemorate the
sixtieth anniversary of the assassination. Right.

544
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:36.519
I mean you you noted this,
right, I really didn't cut off all

545
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:39.000
the streams. Oh that's right,
Yeah, you're taking a break. Well,

546
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:45.440
allow me allow me to inform you
it's cool. But you know,

547
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:49.880
some people were talking about it at
the conference that like, look you name

548
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.800
it. Netflix has you know,
added some things to their playlist. They

549
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.960
didn't produce anything new. But if
you take a look at Paramount Plus and

550
00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:07.400
Disney and National g and of course
Oliver Stone's new documentary got play on a

551
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.920
bunch of different platforms, a whole
lot of platforms wanted to make sure that

552
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:17.079
they put out either brand new or
relatively new pieces. The thing what did

553
00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:22.079
the doctors see on Paramount Plus is
again a revisitation of the Parkland doctors,

554
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:29.159
except this time you will not recognize
some of them because they were just medical

555
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:31.320
students at the time who had happened
to work on Kennedy as well. Because

556
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.880
there was a lot of doctors swirling
around. I mean, you remember the

557
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:38.159
doctors that we saw, say on
the Nova special in the nineteen eighties,

558
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.239
because I'm sure you've seen that one
hundred times, right, you know the

559
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:46.159
guys who show the back of the
head and you see Audrey Bell and McClellan

560
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:52.280
and Chuck Crenshaw. You know those
guys, Chuck Crenshaw who published Oh my

561
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:54.960
goodness, what was that a trauma
room one, the book, and then

562
00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:59.800
the AMA went after him, all
those things you might remember. But some

563
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:01.960
of these other medical students, some
of these other you know, they say

564
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:06.920
their doctors. I'm not sure exactly
what their status was. They were residents

565
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:09.280
at the time, second year resident, this and that. But the medical

566
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:14.119
students, a different nurse, all
kinds of different people and some of those

567
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:17.519
familiar names to us all come together. They did an interview in twenty thirteen,

568
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:23.360
a collective interview, and they also
showed different observations and historical films and

569
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:28.239
all that, and brought this together
as a brand new special on Paramount Plus.

570
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:34.880
Like I said, Disney in cooperation
with National Geographic, so it's on

571
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:39.159
both platforms. National Geographic as a
streaming platform, also did this. Most

572
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:46.119
of the networks had at least a
special presentation. The History Channel strangely didn't

573
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:51.440
rerun The Men Who Killed Kennedy once
again, but they did run a couple

574
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.440
of things, you know, JFK
Declassified I think was one of them.

575
00:43:54.679 --> 00:44:00.280
Anyway, Discovery, all these different
corporate entities pretty much wanted to get in

576
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:06.159
on We've got something special for you
on the sixty at the anniversary, so

577
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.440
it occurred to me watching and I
just they released it the one thing just

578
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:17.800
a couple of days ago on the
Disney platform, and also another one on

579
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:22.440
Discovery just a couple of days ago, and I was watching that, and

580
00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:24.639
the first part of it is all
about, you know, the police response

581
00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:30.840
in Dallas pretty much, and it
is in conjunction and they cooperated. They

582
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:35.480
have a big notation constantly running through
it. We are doing this with historical

583
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.519
cooperation with the sixth Floor Museum.
I'm like, oh god, so you

584
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:43.559
know you know what that means.
It's gonna be Oswald did it, and

585
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:47.280
that's all there is to it.
But even there, they talk about some

586
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.239
of the controversies and they showed some
really good historic footage. They have some

587
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:57.519
stuff that's been colorized. I've never
seen colorized before. They said that they

588
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:01.239
were going to show footage that's never
been shown before. I disagree that they

589
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:04.880
did that, unless you want to
count the fact that they now have like

590
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:07.960
Oswald and color at the midnight press
conference. You know, but it's just

591
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:14.440
colorized footage because initially that was filmed
in black and white. Anyway, But

592
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:17.119
either way, I'm looking at it
and I'm going, this is really fascinating

593
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:22.480
because they're not going to ask a
lot of questions that those of us on

594
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:28.519
the conspiracy advocacy side would be asking, like about the motorcade. They let

595
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:31.320
you know, for instance, a
district attorney Wade's whole thing go by that

596
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:36.199
says, well, I'm very sure
he planned this for either months or weeks

597
00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:37.519
in advance, and da da da
da. And as you well know,

598
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:42.760
if you've been a longtime listener of
mine, Carmin Sabistano argues that Oswald had

599
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:45.880
no more than seventy two hours to
plan, if indeed he planned any of

600
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:51.800
this. And if you're accepting that
he's a lone shooter, you're accepting that

601
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.440
he had seventy two hours to plan
maximum. And I agree with Carmine's timeline

602
00:45:55.480 --> 00:46:00.679
on this because the you know,
the motorcaide route was not known, not

603
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:06.320
publicly, and indeed internally it was
not known the motorcade route, and all

604
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:10.639
of that is very important that people
are still arguing about this. And meanwhile,

605
00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:16.719
your article ties directly into one of
the things that should be examined if

606
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:21.880
you want to understand when that motorcade
route was decided, who decided it,

607
00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:25.000
and why you know even the discussion
about whether it was going to be at

608
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:30.559
the Trademark or it was going to
be at this other there was a Woman's

609
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:35.199
Voting League call or something like this. There was more than one end location

610
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:37.880
for the motorcade, and indeed,
if they had gone with the Women's Hall,

611
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:43.000
they would have never made the turn
from Houston on to Elm because they

612
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.719
would have just continued down Main Street. I mean you're aware of that,

613
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:52.800
right, Mike. Yeah, That's
that's what the document's about. So yeah,

614
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.159
well but I'm just saying that in
general, that's kind of known.

615
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:00.039
But now I hand it over to
you, it's talk about what's in the

616
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:04.679
document, what you discovered, and
why this is interesting. Do you think

617
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.199
I'm making a case for why this
is interesting or do you need to add

618
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:12.599
to it. Well, there's a
lot of interesting things in the document,

619
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:17.480
but the reason I went to find
it was to look into these motorcad questions.

620
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:22.639
But there's even more interesting stuff in
it than that. But the motorcade

621
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:30.000
is interesting enough, So there's a
I mean, you can't the motorcade route

622
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:38.000
had two possible routes, one where
it would go straight down Main Street and

623
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:44.840
hit industrial Boulevard and then get on
Stemens Freeway. If it would have done

624
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:49.480
that, it wouldn't have gone on
the route that we that it did go

625
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:54.639
that resulted in Kenny being shot.
And that's where instead of going straight to

626
00:47:54.679 --> 00:48:01.239
Industrial Avenue, it took that turn
on Houston and then onto Elm Street in

627
00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:07.280
front of the Texas school Book Depository. So if it had gone and bypassed

628
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:13.239
that and just going straight down Main
Street, Kennedy wouldn't have been shot.

629
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:16.440
But obviously that's not what happened.
Well, and you and I and you

630
00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:22.320
and I standing on the overpass,
okay in twenty seventeen, and this is

631
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:27.119
part of my JFK film O'Kelly on
the Grassy Knoll where Mike Swanson appears in

632
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:30.159
it and is also a cameraman.
So there you go. Full credits to

633
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.719
you, Mike. We're standing on
the overpass and looking at that part of

634
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:39.320
the route right where Main Street comes
in. We're looking over Dealey Plaza from

635
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.840
the railroad bridge. A lot of
people would refer to it as and literally

636
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:46.440
talking You and I were talking about
look at that. If you just make

637
00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:53.000
sense of it, why not use
this other path or why not bypass it

638
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.960
in a different way. You didn't
have to make that weird swooping turn where

639
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:01.440
the car slows down. You and
I about this, and even we talked

640
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:06.119
about the use of a ramp,
which is a fair idea something the Secret

641
00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:08.519
Service could do. They definitely had
the ability to change the flow of traffic

642
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:12.559
that day, or to interrupt it
or block it off. It would have

643
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:16.239
been no problem to change that route
so that they would have had no need

644
00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:22.719
for that slow down and that turn
onto Elm Street. It doesn't even matter

645
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:28.519
what the endpoint was. But even
that six floor Museum endorsed you know,

646
00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:32.719
three part documentary makes the point about
this. Well, if it had been

647
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:36.400
on the other route, you know, they wouldn't have been as close to

648
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:40.719
the school book compository where Oswald fired
from. You know, that's in the

649
00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:45.760
Pro Warrant Commission, which, by
the way, the EndNote on that entire

650
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:50.880
three part series is the Warren Commission
concluded Oswald acted alone and Ruby acted alone.

651
00:49:51.079 --> 00:49:53.639
Bye bye, good night, and
that's it. They don't even mention

652
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:58.840
the House Select Committee nothing. But
anyway, you and I even observed this

653
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:04.599
ourselves. It was interesting that there
was no need for that weird hook turn

654
00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:08.519
that slowed down the limousine. Right, So please continue though, and go

655
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:12.400
ahead and talk about it and tell
us the rest of what you found in

656
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:15.679
this article or excuse me, in
this document and uh and and what you

657
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:22.119
were trying to answer with it.
Please. So I got into this topic

658
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:30.079
from reading Survivor's Guilt, the Vince
Palmer a book, and he quotes different

659
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.880
Secret Service agents and from you know
that he not just the interview, because

660
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:45.360
he's quoting from the HCA different reports
on this motorcade route issue, and he

661
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:52.599
he can't figure out who made this
decision to change it. Uh, No

662
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:58.599
one takes responsibility for it. And
one of the things he quoted or is

663
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:04.920
used as a source, which was
an HSCA report on the Secret Service and

664
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.320
it has a section about the motorcade
and in that section it mentioned that it

665
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:19.800
interviewed a Deputy Chief, George Lumpkin, and he made a comment about uh

666
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:28.199
that they had they had they couldn't
take straight down Industrial Avenue because uh,

667
00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:35.719
it wouldn't provide Uh it was it'd
go through a rougher neighborhood and it wouldn't

668
00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:40.039
be good for crowds. That the
President wanted Uh, well, wow,

669
00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:44.159
this is another hang honest, this
is another attempt though, I think,

670
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:47.360
and this is a general thing that
kept happening, where they wanted to continuously

671
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:52.880
accuse, if you will, the
president of almost being responsible for his own

672
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:57.480
assassination, which is a point Paul
Meyer makes later when he's confronting, you

673
00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:02.639
know, the the Kennedy detail in
that book that nonsense right where he says,

674
00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:07.239
look, they're continuously doing this.
It's like a theme that goes on

675
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:09.800
where it's like, hey, it's
all Kennedy's fault. He didn't want the

676
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:14.119
guys on the back of the limo, he didn't want to be far from

677
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:17.119
the crowds. He wanted the top
open. You know, they pretty much

678
00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:24.559
continuously placed blame on JFK himself for
the circumstances that led to his assassination.

679
00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:29.039
Which, by the way, I
provided a link to survivor's guilt in the

680
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.719
O'Kelly chat room. It'll be in
the show notes as well as well as

681
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:37.039
the document that Mike is talking about
and which mentions this individual. So sorry

682
00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:40.880
the notes with the listener, please
continue. Mike. Though in Vince's work,

683
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:45.199
though he exhaustively interviewed people looked at
the documents, went through the secret

684
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:51.079
I mean his Secret Service focus.
There's very few people that would argue anybody

685
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:57.000
as an independent writer focused on research
more or you know, whether you agree

686
00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:00.280
with Vince's conclusions or not as up
to you. But to argue that anybody

687
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:07.559
researched the Secret Service, its behavior
and its structure and everything that day and

688
00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:12.519
indeed involving JFK, you can't find
a better source than Vince Paul Meyra,

689
00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:15.760
right, Oh, He's done the
best work on it, for sure,

690
00:53:16.360 --> 00:53:23.599
bar none of anyone else. So
the Secret Service, I'm sorry. They

691
00:53:23.719 --> 00:53:29.960
just see a report section on the
Secret Service that has a small section about

692
00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:37.280
this motor cade issue. They have
a sentence where they talk about Chief Lumpkin

693
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:45.840
saying that they couldn't take the industrial
the Industrial Boulevard route. And it's not

694
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:53.400
clear, but from that sentence it
sounded like it was possible it was his

695
00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:59.960
decision. But I wanted to find
out for sure, so I went to

696
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:06.159
their footnote and it referred to this
document. The problem with the document is

697
00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:14.800
that while declassified, it's not available
online. It's not on the Narrow Database,

698
00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:17.800
it wasn't on the Mary Ferreal database. So I had to request a

699
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:25.239
copy, hard copy from the National
Archives and it, you know, and

700
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:30.159
I tried to do it during the
COVID period and they wouldn't respond. So

701
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:34.119
it took me a year to get
it, and then I finally get it.

702
00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:40.480
And when you read it, it's
it's interesting. So the first sentence

703
00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:46.480
says Chief Lumpkin. Now, okay, what the document is is investigators,

704
00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:52.880
staffers of the HSCA are interviewing Lumpkin
really quickly, really quickly. Your starting

705
00:54:52.920 --> 00:55:00.960
point was the HSCA, the report, the Final Assassination Report. Yeah,

706
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.280
that's where your starting point was.
And then you found that footnote in there.

707
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:09.400
Yeah, they have a section they
released not just the not the they

708
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:14.480
have a secondary volume. It's just
about the Secret Service. Right, that's

709
00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:16.880
that's the part of the final report. That's uh, that's what I was

710
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:20.599
looking at you. I just want
to make that clear. Go ahead.

711
00:55:20.880 --> 00:55:25.079
Yeah. So the very first these
are the staffers writing, uh, you

712
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:30.760
know, after conducting their interview,
you know, writing a memo report about

713
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:36.559
the interview. And curiously, the
first sentence says Chief Lumpkin was involved in

714
00:55:36.599 --> 00:55:40.079
the planning of the JFK motorcade.
Uh, and it was primarily about this

715
00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:46.000
matter that he was questioned. Well, when you read it, he says

716
00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:52.440
chief Curry, Chief Curry caught all
the shots. He did nothing. What's

717
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:58.920
funny is that Chief Curry is quoted, uh somewhere else is saying you had

718
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:04.320
nothing to do if any of this
stuff himself, and who knows. But

719
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:10.440
Lumpkin was the deputy chief of police
at the time, and so reading this

720
00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:15.360
doesn't answer the question of who to
me if you know, I can't find

721
00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:22.239
out for reading this, who's responsible
Either Curry is not telling the truth or

722
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:28.440
Lumpkin is not telling the truth,
or they're both in error. You know

723
00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:34.519
that there you can't get a straight
story out of this on who's responsible for

724
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:37.920
change? For picking that motorcade route. Maybe I should have said the word

725
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:45.400
change, but picking the motorcate route
and that final route wasn't decided but forty

726
00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:53.480
eight hours before November the twenty second. So so, but what's what's interesting

727
00:56:53.559 --> 00:56:59.360
though, First people need to understand
Listen, Lumpkin was a very significant figure

728
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:06.960
who he's deputy chief of police.
He was involved in all the meetings about

729
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:12.480
presidential security. They evolved Dallas police
officers, they evolved the Secret Service,

730
00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:16.840
and what was discussed is where to
put different policemen on the route, how

731
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:22.079
to work together with the Secret Service, and the route was part of the

732
00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:25.400
discussion itself. So he was in
and all these meetings, and in this

733
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:31.320
document he really diminishes his role and
he repeats that Curry caught all the shots.

734
00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:37.559
But again, as I just said
earlier, Curry claims he barely had

735
00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:40.840
any involvement in any of this.
Sounds like it wasn't even at most of

736
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:49.000
these meetings. But regardless, Lumpkin
was never interviewed by the Warrant Commission report.

737
00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:53.079
And what Lumpkin did on November twenty
second, he was in the lead

738
00:57:53.239 --> 00:58:04.320
car along with a Colonel George Wetmeyer, who was in charge of the Army

739
00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:12.880
Reserve Unit in Dallas, one of
the Army Reserve units, And when the

740
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:17.840
shots rang out and Kay was killed, the two of them in the lead

741
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:27.039
car took off and followed the limo
that Kennedy was in to Parkland Hospital.

742
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:32.960
When they arrived at Parkland Hospital,
Lumpkin then ordered the driver to go to

743
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:39.400
the Texas School Book Depository, and
as the ranking police officer, when he

744
00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:44.519
arrived there, he was in charge
of the crime scene. He gave the

745
00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:50.039
order to seal off the building and
was in charge of all the officers inside

746
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:53.400
of it as they conducted the search. Now, once they got there,

747
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:59.519
he told mister Wetmire that he couldnot
go in the building with him because of

748
00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:04.840
the situation. So I don't know
what happened to him afterwards. But a

749
00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:13.639
curiosity in this document is that while
Lumpkin was in all these meetings about presidential

750
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:19.480
security, he decided on his own
initiative, according to what he says here,

751
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:25.480
to invite mister Wedemeier as his own
personal guest. So I just find

752
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:30.360
that a curious situation, you know, I just how does that? I

753
00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:36.239
just find it amazing that you have
meetings about president's security with the Secret Service

754
00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:40.480
and someone just invites someone as their
guest. I mean, that sounds pretty

755
00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:45.199
wild to me. He sounds a
little out of order. And this guy

756
00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:49.800
who was the you know, deputy
chief, right, he's not exactly you

757
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:52.039
know, you'd think, Okay,
Jesse Curry needs to be there because he's

758
00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:55.840
going to coordinate everybody. Sheriff Decker
needs to be there because he's going to

759
00:59:55.920 --> 01:00:00.239
coordinate his troops, right, it's
kind of an odd thing. Why is

760
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:05.000
this guy essential? And how is
it that he's a key guy in all

761
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:08.119
these situations you find that Lumpkin is
all over the place. By the way,

762
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:13.480
Yeah, he's never interviewed by the
Work Commission Report as far as I

763
01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:17.639
know. This document is the only
interview with them. And you know,

764
01:00:17.719 --> 01:00:22.639
I put up online on the on
my website and you're sharing it too,

765
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:27.760
so it's it's an important document,
right. Well, I just look,

766
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:30.000
I took it and I just made
it into a you know, I took

767
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:31.519
the PDF and put it up so
people could download it and see it for

768
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:37.119
themselves. I've also just added the
the HSCA Report a link to it from

769
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:43.679
that website that is also hosting your
article, the aa arclibrary dot org,

770
01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:46.239
where you can, in fact,
if you want, read uh, the

771
01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:53.119
the HSCA Assassination Report for yourself and
the specific areas that they cover. At

772
01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:59.199
one point in there are agencies and
departments of the US government performed with varying

773
01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:05.719
degree of competency in the fulfillment of
their duties. Okay, and the first

774
01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:08.440
one is the Secret Service, And
what is the title of that section?

775
01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:14.599
The Secret Service was deficient in the
performance of its duties. And it's really

776
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:19.480
the only major criticism. Everything else
says, you know, okay, well,

777
01:01:19.480 --> 01:01:22.559
like the Department of Justice failed to
exercise initiative been supervising and directing the

778
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:28.800
investigation by the FBI. The FBI
performed with varying degrees of competency in the

779
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:31.920
fulfillment of its duties. The CIA
was deficient in its collection and sharing of

780
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:37.519
information both prior to and subsequent to
the assassination. The Warrant Commission performed with

781
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:44.239
varying degrees of competency in their fulfillment
of its duties. Okay, those are

782
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:49.480
the summations of the governmental agencies that
they're willing to look at. Notice,

783
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:54.440
the only one that really has a
role in being criticized for its behavior related

784
01:01:54.480 --> 01:02:00.960
to the assassination. And when you
read these things in full, it almost

785
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:04.280
seems like what we're saying, all
the agencies could have done better. But

786
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:07.239
if you read the criticism, the
only one that really gets criticized, ever,

787
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:10.280
is the Secret Service. You know, everything else is kind of like,

788
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:14.599
well, you know, they tried, but Secret Service kind of screwed

789
01:02:14.679 --> 01:02:19.039
up. I mean, okay,
so oh, thanks Captains obvious that would

790
01:02:19.079 --> 01:02:23.320
be captain's obvious, not obvious captains
right. Anyways, Captain's obvious are telling

791
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:27.320
us that the Secret Service might have
not done a good job that day.

792
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:30.960
No kidding again, I remarked while
I was looking at the historical footage that

793
01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:35.440
you know, Clint Hill's the only
guy in motion because everybody else is either

794
01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:38.320
hungover or still drunk from the night
before. But don't bring that up.

795
01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:43.719
And they didn't, by the way, on the Pro Warrant Commission, you

796
01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:47.920
know, documentary, and they had
that Landis on there too, in a

797
01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:53.280
very prominent role in that documentary talking
about it, even though he resigned from

798
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:58.719
the Secret Service six months after claims
to have been a broken man, kind

799
01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:02.239
of has taken up part of Clinton
Hill's you know, survivor's guilt issue.

800
01:03:04.440 --> 01:03:07.840
You know, Clint Hill literally says
at the close of that program, you

801
01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:10.360
know, uh one, the only
regret I having my you know, my

802
01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:14.760
my major regret in my life is
that I wish I could have gone back

803
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:19.760
and traded my life for John F. Kennedy's, even though his job that

804
01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:23.519
day, and also Landis's job that
day, was to protect Jacqueline Kennedy,

805
01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:29.679
not John, but in general.
Of course, Clint Hill is the only

806
01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:34.719
one that you can visually watch kind
of doing his job in that moment in

807
01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:37.360
time when it was called upon,
when protection was called upon. Anyway,

808
01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:39.920
I'm just remarking on that for the
sake of you know, when you think

809
01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:44.840
about this, it's something to be
thought about, you know, the behavior

810
01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:46.840
of the Secret Service, And I
always had to answer those questions. I

811
01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:50.880
don't know, you know, previous
to this time, when a lot of

812
01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:53.679
information came out in the nineties.
Mike, uh, you know, were

813
01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:58.159
you interested in the Kennedy assassination as
far back as I was and kind of

814
01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:00.480
talking about it with people, you
know, in the late eighties also,

815
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:06.559
were you into it? Then I
start getting interested in it. I think

816
01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:11.440
it was nineteen eighty nine, same
as me, exact same as me.

817
01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:15.119
Yeah, so this was before the
JE came out right before that, but

818
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:17.320
around the time of the twenty fifth
anniversary, which is eighty eight, when

819
01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:20.119
there was a lot of like all
of a sudden, there was radio programs

820
01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:26.440
and TV programs, right, and
they actually distributed that Vince Bugliosi mock trial

821
01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:30.440
here in eighty eight. It was
made in eighty six. But I'm fairly

822
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.599
certain. It was eighty eight when
they really pushed it over here on Showtime

823
01:04:32.679 --> 01:04:35.960
and other networks were able to play
it. It was a British TV show

824
01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:41.880
anyway. But do you remember having
to talk about this when people saw this

825
01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:45.280
abruder film and it was still not, you know, so commonly seen because

826
01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:47.280
we didn't have you know, online
world and all that by then, and

827
01:04:47.320 --> 01:04:53.360
people were saying, why is it
that nobody else tries to move except that

828
01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:55.639
one guy? I mean, yeah, don't you remember that being one of

829
01:04:55.679 --> 01:05:00.199
the earliest questions, So you know, to me back then, it it

830
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:01.679
was hard to try and explain that. You know, when I first learned

831
01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:05.400
about this stuff in the nineties about
them having been out drinking all night,

832
01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:10.679
you know, early nineties, like
before the Stone film came out. I

833
01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:14.280
was surprised Oliver Stone didn't include that
in his film, you know, that

834
01:05:14.280 --> 01:05:16.559
the Secret Service was out drinking with
the uh I think, you know,

835
01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:21.440
at one point the Garrison character mentions
it. But I was surprised that Stone

836
01:05:21.480 --> 01:05:25.039
didn't really try and push it up
front, like you know, these guys

837
01:05:25.079 --> 01:05:28.280
were drunk or hung over one or
the other. Because you know, my

838
01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:32.920
understanding even back then is that they
left fireman guarding the President in Fort Worth

839
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:38.519
and went out drinking, and some
of them maybe didn't even come back until

840
01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:42.039
just about the time that Kennedy emerged
at like seven thirty in the morning.

841
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:45.960
Yeah, you know, which means
I'm sorry, But no matter who you

842
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:47.360
are, if you're out drinking all
night, you were working all day the

843
01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:53.360
day before, you're not going to
be the sharpest tack the next day or

844
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:57.119
a couple hours later or maybe an
hour later after you've been drinking at the

845
01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:01.079
Topless joint. Okay, And the
latest they should have been there is about

846
01:06:01.079 --> 01:06:05.599
four am, but there are certain
accounts that say that they were there past

847
01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:12.719
closing, right and we're drinking,
you know, So what are we talking

848
01:06:12.760 --> 01:06:15.480
about here? A bunch of guys
that were clearly and by the way,

849
01:06:15.519 --> 01:06:17.639
we've heard about these kind of things
over the years with the Secret Service agents.

850
01:06:18.159 --> 01:06:20.920
Some of them are out partying and
stuff like that instead of being,

851
01:06:21.559 --> 01:06:26.119
you know, on the job.
So that's one thing, and I'm not

852
01:06:26.159 --> 01:06:29.880
even saying that they're responsible, but
it's something that does need to be pointed

853
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:33.960
out because whoever is responsible had an
easier time of it because the Secret Service

854
01:06:34.039 --> 01:06:36.880
was not at the top of their
game. I mean, you know,

855
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:43.199
anyway, is it possible that the
planning of the motor cat and all this

856
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:47.039
is significant in that they were allowing
or being a little loose about stuff.

857
01:06:47.079 --> 01:06:49.440
I mean, I'm thinking to myself, and I've heard things like this,

858
01:06:49.599 --> 01:06:54.119
and I think Vince even points us
out in some of his books that years

859
01:06:54.199 --> 01:06:58.559
after they sort of used this as
here's the example of stuff you don't do,

860
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:02.239
you know, when it came to
presidential protection, the behavior of the

861
01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:06.039
Secret Service agents. I mean really, as much as you know people want

862
01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:09.400
to say, oh, this guy's
a hero or that guy's a hero or

863
01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:13.519
whatever. You know, just like
they adjusted after the Reagan assassination attempt,

864
01:07:13.639 --> 01:07:17.079
right, they had to make adjustments
because the real world taught him some lessons.

865
01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:19.519
You can't be this loose about this. You got to, you know,

866
01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:23.679
keep a better eye on this or
that or the third thing. And

867
01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:27.960
it's really remarkable. But getting back
to this thing about the planning of the

868
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:33.320
motorcade, why is it so significant
that this guy Lumpkin is again, you

869
01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:38.519
know, a barely referenced character anywhere. Well, here we go. It

870
01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:42.880
goes back to that initial point.
The mechanics, the guys who got their

871
01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:45.800
hands in things. Like I said, we know Jesse Curry's name. He

872
01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:49.840
publishes his book by the way through
weird situation. You know about that,

873
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:58.079
the assassination file book that Jesse Curry
published himself, Right, Mike, I

874
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:01.280
don't remember, Okay, quick,
I remember he did a book. Yeah,

875
01:08:01.360 --> 01:08:03.960
he was the head Okay, he
was the head of security for Southland

876
01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:12.079
Corporation, which owned seven eleven basically, so his little assassination book was published

877
01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:16.079
by and distributed and ready seven elevens. So there's not that many of them

878
01:08:16.119 --> 01:08:19.119
out there, but his little neat
but it's a neat little book, and

879
01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:24.079
it had pictures in it that nobody
else had. It had information in it

880
01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:29.279
and some direct, you know,
interesting evidence in it that no other author,

881
01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:32.720
no assassination research or anybody else had
ever bothered to show anybody or knew

882
01:08:32.720 --> 01:08:38.640
about weird stuff in that book at
the time. Even the Dillard photograph of

883
01:08:38.680 --> 01:08:42.159
the guy picking up the bullet off
of the grass was in that book.

884
01:08:42.159 --> 01:08:44.319
I mean it was in a you
know, it was taken by a news

885
01:08:44.359 --> 01:08:47.680
photographer, but hardly anybody ever pointed
to it, and Jesse Curry just kind

886
01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:51.520
of casually published it. You know, here's my police file, and I'm

887
01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:55.560
pretty sure Oswald did it, but
there's some weird stuff here I can't answer.

888
01:08:56.600 --> 01:08:59.079
And yeah, but at the time
he was, you know, had

889
01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:01.520
a security job with, like I
said, the seven to eleven company,

890
01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:05.359
and they put out that little book. So when you see that little book,

891
01:09:05.359 --> 01:09:10.000
it was only printed for that short
time in the like around nineteen eighty

892
01:09:10.039 --> 01:09:15.199
I think, you know. Anyhow, so back to it. What is

893
01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:21.840
interesting here is that again you're revealing
another guy who is clearly key in not

894
01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:26.880
only the motorcade but the search afterwards
and everything else. And how many people

895
01:09:26.920 --> 01:09:32.439
have you ever really heard Mike talk
about Lumpkin before? Well, I mean

896
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:36.359
the reason, I mean it's really
Walt Brown is the only person I've ever

897
01:09:36.359 --> 01:09:41.960
heard talk about him. Right,
That's it, right, And that's because

898
01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:48.319
Walt oddly will go into all sorts
of obscure people because he recognizes that quite

899
01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:51.760
frankly, and this is why he
ends up doing these you know, crazy

900
01:09:51.920 --> 01:09:58.039
large deep dives into things. That's
why his you know, chronologies thirty thousand

901
01:09:58.039 --> 01:10:04.880
pages literally is because he recognizes that
it is all of this stuff that needs

902
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:10.479
to get saved and retained. Because
as we continue to learn, like you

903
01:10:10.560 --> 01:10:15.880
said, and like I was trying
to explain earlier, we begin to understand

904
01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:20.279
that it may not be the headline
characters that we need to know all their

905
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:24.640
movements. You know, we can
know everything about Jay Edgar Hoover. It

906
01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:28.399
doesn't mean we know who really did
the job on the ground for the FBI.

907
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:31.079
It doesn't mean that we know who
carried things to and from the lab.

908
01:10:31.520 --> 01:10:35.560
It doesn't mean that we know how
the hell it is. And by

909
01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:39.920
the way, the Secret Service has
a lot of mysteries to it still,

910
01:10:39.960 --> 01:10:45.239
like how in the hell James Fox
ended up with a set of autopsy photos

911
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:49.079
and incomplete set minds you, but
still a set of legitimate autopsy photos that

912
01:10:49.119 --> 01:10:53.239
the rest of the world had not
seen. How in the hell did that

913
01:10:53.279 --> 01:10:57.239
guy get it? Does anybody know
who James K. Fox was? Even

914
01:10:57.640 --> 01:11:03.399
right? There are players all the
way who may have had the information necessary

915
01:11:04.279 --> 01:11:09.760
but might have been ignored up to
this point, because again, they weren't

916
01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:14.199
the headline names. They're not James
Jesus Angleton, they're not Alan Dulles,

917
01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:18.520
they're not j Edgar Hoover. You
know what I'm saying. So I think

918
01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:25.039
it is important to get to know
the rest of the team, You know

919
01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:28.079
what I mean. It's not just
important to know who the quarterback is.

920
01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:31.399
You got to know who the place
kicker is. You gotta know who the

921
01:11:31.479 --> 01:11:35.359
guy is that they bring in on
special teams just to the right end position,

922
01:11:36.199 --> 01:11:41.880
because that guy might have been the
key to victory or defeat, depending

923
01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:44.920
on how you want to look at
this. It is a matter of really

924
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:48.079
knowing all of it in order to
dig up some of the things that have

925
01:11:48.199 --> 01:11:53.960
been missed. Obviously, the missing
pieces so far amount to this. So

926
01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:56.840
continue on though, about Lumpkin,
I mean, what else what else do

927
01:11:56.880 --> 01:12:00.520
you think you've revealed here with this
with this document that people need to read

928
01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:04.640
the document? Uh? I mean
perfectly, we've hit the highlights of it.

929
01:12:05.239 --> 01:12:08.960
Okay, fair enough, So I
I overdid it. I'm sorry,

930
01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:13.760
Mike, I always do that to
you, don't But I mean, what

931
01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:15.319
else? What else do we need
to know about this? Is there anything

932
01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:18.920
that you want us to know about
it beyond what we've said here, beyond

933
01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:23.279
what we've looked at And obviously I
want you guys to read it at Wallstreet

934
01:12:23.319 --> 01:12:26.319
Window dot com. Uh, you
know the link will be there, But

935
01:12:26.359 --> 01:12:29.479
you can read it at a shelly
dot com. Uh, the article,

936
01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:32.239
the document, download it for yourself, take a look at it, uh

937
01:12:32.279 --> 01:12:35.840
and see how it matches up to
other things. Because I'm curious, have

938
01:12:35.920 --> 01:12:42.199
you gone further with this and looked
into more of Lumpkins's behavior and uh and

939
01:12:42.199 --> 01:12:45.560
and seeing what else you could learn
about how deeply involved he was with things

940
01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:48.800
on the ground there? Uh?
Have you gone further with the research?

941
01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:55.000
Mic? I really haven't, not, not in this case, not not

942
01:12:55.159 --> 01:12:58.479
on this specific topic. Okay,
Well, I'm curious do you think you're

943
01:12:58.520 --> 01:13:01.399
going to at some point because I'm
I mean, you're you're probably gonna touch

944
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:04.239
on this a little more, I
think, right, I mean, I

945
01:13:04.279 --> 01:13:09.960
know you're you're writing the second volume
of the Vietnam book now, but I

946
01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:14.000
mean at some point he might have
need to go into this a little further,

947
01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:17.439
right, Well, I mean I
do want to learn more about the

948
01:13:17.520 --> 01:13:25.680
Dallas police and yeah, but they
did have assassination. But I'm not sure

949
01:13:25.680 --> 01:13:30.600
if I'm really gonna be able to
find much more out about about this motor

950
01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:33.960
key thing and Lumpkin. This might
be all there is to it, So

951
01:13:34.159 --> 01:13:38.600
I don't know. Well, I'll
tell you what I'm gonna I'm gonna mail

952
01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:42.600
you something you still have. You
still have a DVD wrong player right,

953
01:13:42.680 --> 01:13:45.680
like a DVD on your computer?
Sure, all right, I will mail

954
01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:51.159
you a DVD that I think will
be a useful research and perhaps you can,

955
01:13:51.279 --> 01:13:55.000
uh. I mean, I'm gonna
use mine too, but I'm gonna

956
01:13:55.039 --> 01:13:59.279
make sure that you have a perfect
copy of it, because I have a

957
01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:06.520
Dallas Police Spiles DBD DVD ROM that
I believe is searchable, or you can

958
01:14:06.560 --> 01:14:13.239
plug it into something and like on
your computer now and create a thing to

959
01:14:13.279 --> 01:14:16.000
cross reference with anyway, either way, it's contained on the disc, or

960
01:14:16.039 --> 01:14:20.159
it's something that you can use if
you transfer it into a certain kind of

961
01:14:20.439 --> 01:14:24.680
reader. Either way, I think
it'll be a research tool, a good

962
01:14:24.760 --> 01:14:30.079
database for you to go through Dallas
police files and a few other things that

963
01:14:30.119 --> 01:14:33.119
are connected to the Dallas Police.
Have you ever read the book No More

964
01:14:33.159 --> 01:14:41.000
Silence by the way, No.
Yeah. I'm curious if you know,

965
01:14:41.039 --> 01:14:44.520
because there's a guy named Larry Sneaed
there who wrote that book, and he

966
01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:49.600
interviewed hundreds of Dallas police people,
and I'm wondering if any of the anecdotes

967
01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:55.079
and accounts in that book might also
provide some sort of information. I mean,

968
01:14:55.239 --> 01:14:58.159
this is the way I'm thinking of
it, sure, and this is

969
01:14:58.199 --> 01:15:00.119
because that's primary. It's not I
always like to refer to books, but

970
01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:03.520
that to me is a primary source
because he did, you know, what

971
01:15:03.560 --> 01:15:09.199
William Law did within the eye of
history, which is simply record these interviews

972
01:15:10.520 --> 01:15:14.800
and in some cases sneed even recorded
stuff where they contradicted each other. I

973
01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:16.520
mean, you know, you got, like I made certain notes in my

974
01:15:16.600 --> 01:15:19.920
book, there's like three four guys
claiming to have all done the same thing,

975
01:15:21.279 --> 01:15:24.640
you know, in certain reports.
That's how I came to that whole

976
01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:28.159
thing about how they and I've spoken
about this. I've never written about it,

977
01:15:28.199 --> 01:15:30.119
but some time I want to write
about it. Is that you know,

978
01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:32.600
people go, well, absolutely,
this guy did this, because I

979
01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:39.159
read the reports, You're being misled, because these Dallas police admitted to me

980
01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:45.119
and to Larry Snead and I think
a couple other people that sometimes these guys

981
01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:48.439
just signed paperwork that they didn't necessarily
fill out. So you could see a

982
01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:55.159
report that's allegedly from a police officer
that he might have just signed because he

983
01:15:55.239 --> 01:16:00.079
trusted his partner, his buddy or
the other cop whoever, to write it,

984
01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:02.880
which you know, means that a
lot of cases, you think,

985
01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:05.399
oh, I've got the guy who
did this, because he says he did

986
01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:10.640
it in his report. You might
want to cross reference that because you might

987
01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:15.800
find two other guys. You know, Look, it doesn't take three hands

988
01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:19.840
to pick up a cigarette pack,
and there is an instance where a cigarette

989
01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:24.840
pack is being picked up. There's
an instance where a jacket is being literally

990
01:16:24.880 --> 01:16:27.880
picked up, and three guys didn't
pick it up off the ground. Okay,

991
01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:30.319
it just didn't happen that way.
So therefore, what do you have.

992
01:16:30.840 --> 01:16:33.960
You have three guys signing a report
that only one guy wrote, and

993
01:16:34.039 --> 01:16:40.439
hopefully one of them actually did it, so you don't have absolute certainty with

994
01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:45.119
their reports. Okay, but it's
still a useful tool, and you might

995
01:16:45.159 --> 01:16:47.000
be able to come up with some
things about Lumpkin showing up in other people's

996
01:16:47.000 --> 01:16:50.920
statements where well, Deputy Chief Lumpkin
told me to do this or that.

997
01:16:51.279 --> 01:16:56.399
You know, what do you think? Yeah, No, I mean it's

998
01:16:56.800 --> 01:17:01.079
it's it could easily be that happens. Well, anyway, I'll suggest that

999
01:17:01.119 --> 01:17:03.680
book to you. I mean,
I could send you. I think I

1000
01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:06.199
have a copy of it over here. If I can find that, I'll

1001
01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:11.359
send it to you. But I'm
gonna send you this for sure, just

1002
01:17:11.399 --> 01:17:14.760
to make sure that you have one
for your own. And I got a

1003
01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:18.880
few packages I got to mail out
sometime soon. Anyway, Holy crap,

1004
01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:23.479
I've taken you like fifteen minutes over
time here, and I didn't even mean

1005
01:17:23.560 --> 01:17:27.319
to do that, Mike. So
anything you want to conclude with my friend,

1006
01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:30.000
I'm more than happy. I'm sorry
I talked over a lot of your

1007
01:17:30.039 --> 01:17:31.760
time here. But did you get
out everything you wanted to get out regarding

1008
01:17:31.840 --> 01:17:35.279
this? Oh? Yeah, yeah, we're good. Now we got say

1009
01:17:35.399 --> 01:17:40.399
more for the next time we speak, absolutely, and that'll be about two

1010
01:17:40.439 --> 01:17:44.199
weeks from now, right, because
next week I'll have Larry Hancock here on

1011
01:17:44.239 --> 01:17:47.279
Thursday. But then you're gonna come
back the week after. And by the

1012
01:17:47.279 --> 01:17:50.920
way, there is sort of a
you know, on vacation note on Wall

1013
01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:55.920
Street Window dot com and that'll be
there until what at least the beginning of

1014
01:17:55.960 --> 01:17:59.159
the year, Mike, Yes,
right, Okay, so you may not

1015
01:17:59.239 --> 01:18:01.920
see a lot of new material coming
out from Wallstreet Window dot com, but

1016
01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:05.000
the website will still be there,
and who knows, there might be some

1017
01:18:05.079 --> 01:18:11.479
interesting announcements regarding what the future.
Oh, but Wall Street window is Uh,

1018
01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:14.439
I'm not giving anything away here,
Mike, right, I mean,

1019
01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:17.000
I'm just that's what it says on
the on the side there. I just

1020
01:18:17.000 --> 01:18:19.319
want to make sure I'm not doing
anything, you know, because I might

1021
01:18:19.359 --> 01:18:21.720
have some ideas about what you're gonna
do, but I'm not gonna talk about

1022
01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:27.039
it, and we'll leave it there
because that's up to you to announce it

1023
01:18:27.079 --> 01:18:30.720
and break the news. Uh.
But I look forward to it. And

1024
01:18:30.079 --> 01:18:33.239
do we have any idea when you
might get that next volume of the Vietnam

1025
01:18:33.279 --> 01:18:39.239
book out, by the way.
I mean it's not it ain't any time

1026
01:18:39.319 --> 01:18:42.279
soon. I know that part.
But I was just wondering if you had

1027
01:18:42.279 --> 01:18:45.199
a target or a deadline in your
mind or anything like that. I mean

1028
01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:47.920
probably next, probably the year after
next probably, so like a twenty twenty

1029
01:18:47.960 --> 01:18:53.560
five release on. Yeah, that's
that's most likely. Have you already picked

1030
01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:56.279
up some new because every time Mike
writes a book, by the way,

1031
01:18:56.319 --> 01:18:59.960
there's always documentation in there that's either
been ignored or missed by other people.

1032
01:19:00.600 --> 01:19:02.960
So I love that. It's like
Mike has always picked up something new.

1033
01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:06.680
You're you're not gonna get just run
of the middle of the same old crap

1034
01:19:06.760 --> 01:19:11.239
in one of Mike Swanson's books doesn't
work that way, although you know it's

1035
01:19:11.239 --> 01:19:13.720
funny. I did see. Uh, there's another guy with the last name

1036
01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:16.680
Swanson who's written about the Kennedy assassination. And I don't know if you know

1037
01:19:16.760 --> 01:19:20.880
about that that guy. Do you
know you know about him? Okay,

1038
01:19:20.920 --> 01:19:25.840
well there is an author named Kennedy
Swanson. Let me let me play real

1039
01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:29.399
fast, but just real fast.
I'm gonna get to this with you and

1040
01:19:29.399 --> 01:19:31.560
then I'm gonna let you go or
you know, say your final piece however

1041
01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:40.520
you want. But assassination book.
Yeah, and I'm just gonna write because

1042
01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:44.479
it's so funny. Oh yeah,
I know it's a lone assassin thing.

1043
01:19:44.800 --> 01:19:48.159
Yeah, but a few a few
times I've had people is a bunch of

1044
01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:55.640
trash. Yeah. But the sad
thing is I've had people think that's you.

1045
01:19:55.960 --> 01:19:59.199
I know. So I want to
make it real clear that this guy,

1046
01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:00.159
uh. And now I have it
in front of me, so I

1047
01:20:00.159 --> 01:20:08.239
can make it very clear that James
Swanson is not Mike Swanson. And yeah,

1048
01:20:08.319 --> 01:20:12.560
and indeed he writes some sort of
like you know, low nut theory

1049
01:20:12.720 --> 01:20:15.119
kind of you know, the Warren
Commission probably got it right, even though

1050
01:20:15.159 --> 01:20:18.000
they got a couple of things wrong. Book I think it is, yeah,

1051
01:20:18.079 --> 01:20:21.279
basically, and uh, when did
he put this thing out? I

1052
01:20:21.279 --> 01:20:25.800
don't even know. I guess they
re released it in twenty fourteen, or

1053
01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:30.880
maybe they did release it whatever.
I'm not that there is no recommendation for

1054
01:20:30.920 --> 01:20:32.560
this book. I am not giving
you a link to it. It's crap.

1055
01:20:33.079 --> 01:20:36.880
I tell you that now I have
read through it, and it's just

1056
01:20:38.079 --> 01:20:44.000
it's crap. That is not Mike
Swanson, Okay, just that simple.

1057
01:20:44.720 --> 01:20:48.119
Mike Swanson indeed is the author of
the War State. Uh. He is

1058
01:20:48.159 --> 01:20:55.319
the author of Why the Vietnam War. Okay. He is the author of

1059
01:20:55.359 --> 01:20:58.560
a bunch of books actually that I
usually don't even talk about on here.

1060
01:20:59.039 --> 01:21:01.800
But let's go to make a look
at the list real fast. He wrote

1061
01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:08.079
about the history of Danville, Virginia. He wrote about strategic stock trading,

1062
01:21:08.279 --> 01:21:13.560
the new gold stock, stuff about
money and the markets. And the two

1063
01:21:13.560 --> 01:21:17.319
books on well three books on history, one only focusing on Danville, Virginia

1064
01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:21.800
local historical thing, but also Why
the Vietnam War is the latest one,

1065
01:21:21.920 --> 01:21:26.520
and the War State, which is
a book I highly recommend to anyone who's

1066
01:21:26.560 --> 01:21:34.399
interested in the modern American history twentieth
century, especially and specifically post World War

1067
01:21:34.439 --> 01:21:39.800
Two, although there are some interesting
things in there that might go outside of

1068
01:21:39.840 --> 01:21:44.800
that. And that's the Red Book
that you see on my sidebar with Ike

1069
01:21:45.079 --> 01:21:48.840
right, Eisenhower given his farewell address, which is relevant to the title of

1070
01:21:48.840 --> 01:21:53.119
the book, the concept of the
book, etc. Et cetera. So

1071
01:21:53.399 --> 01:21:57.720
anyway, that's Mike Swanson. Don't
get him confused with that other Swanson guy

1072
01:21:58.079 --> 01:22:00.960
who wrote about the jfk assassination.
But I almost feel like, one day

1073
01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:04.239
you've got to at least do something
on the Kennedy assassination as a book,

1074
01:22:05.039 --> 01:22:10.239
just to make sure you have yours
out there and you know, people don't

1075
01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:13.039
mix it up, because I literally
had a couple of people say to me

1076
01:22:13.119 --> 01:22:17.319
recently, didn't he write this thing? And I was like, no,

1077
01:22:18.319 --> 01:22:21.119
he hasn't written a book on the
Kendiate. But he talks about it,

1078
01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:25.720
Yes he does, he's interested,
yes he is, but he hasn't actually

1079
01:22:25.720 --> 01:22:29.239
written a book on it. So
I'm just saying, Mike, one of

1080
01:22:29.239 --> 01:22:31.199
these days, I mean, hey, look, even if you want to

1081
01:22:31.239 --> 01:22:35.520
do a cooperative thing and we write
an informational book together, just some sort

1082
01:22:35.520 --> 01:22:39.960
of reference book something you got to
put your name on it. Because this

1083
01:22:40.039 --> 01:22:43.199
guy being a Swanson with the name
with the with the book out there,

1084
01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:47.159
I bet you he benefited from from
a little bit of you getting that book

1085
01:22:47.199 --> 01:22:50.680
out there, probably helping him with
his sales. And it's a crap book.

1086
01:22:50.720 --> 01:22:54.720
It's garbage. It's got a nice
picture on the on the dust jacket.

1087
01:22:55.000 --> 01:22:57.239
I think it's a dust jacket.
I don't you know what. I

1088
01:22:57.239 --> 01:22:59.399
don't even care. I don't even
remember if it was. I think it

1089
01:22:59.439 --> 01:23:02.039
was a paperback I got. But
either way, the front cover is a

1090
01:23:02.079 --> 01:23:05.840
nice picture. It's them arriving in
Dallas. But that's the only nice thing

1091
01:23:05.880 --> 01:23:11.640
or useful thing about the book.
Okay, that's it anyway. Sorry,

1092
01:23:11.640 --> 01:23:15.439
I'm trashing this guy. Hope he's
not your cousin or something like. No,

1093
01:23:15.520 --> 01:23:18.239
I don't like him, okay,
fair enough, just mind have you

1094
01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:21.800
ever met him? No? But
his book's are garbage. He's writing is

1095
01:23:21.840 --> 01:23:28.000
that just the he's writing loaded assassin
books for every assassination. He's got one

1096
01:23:28.039 --> 01:23:31.680
of that booth. He's got one
about King huh, I mean booth?

1097
01:23:31.800 --> 01:23:36.680
Uh? You know it's de leakin
assassination he's got one about King, so

1098
01:23:36.880 --> 01:23:42.520
he's he's Bill O'Reilly just less interesting. Yeah, that's the same crap.

1099
01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:45.520
Okay, Well, don't go by
that. But if you want to get

1100
01:23:45.520 --> 01:23:49.079
a copy of the War State or
Why the Vietnam War by Michael Swanse,

1101
01:23:49.560 --> 01:23:55.439
just type my name in and uh
and I'll be back and just make sure

1102
01:23:55.439 --> 01:23:59.199
you get Michael Swanson's books. You
got this other guy, okay, And

1103
01:23:59.359 --> 01:24:02.359
there are in with the show notes. So with all that having been said,

1104
01:24:03.000 --> 01:24:04.840
Mike, I want to thank you
for joining me, and I want

1105
01:24:04.840 --> 01:24:09.520
to thank you guys for joining me
out there because after all, no matter

1106
01:24:09.520 --> 01:24:12.239
who you are, where you are, when you are, I want you

1107
01:24:12.319 --> 01:24:15.920
to remember one thing specifically, not
only go be in the know and go

1108
01:24:15.960 --> 01:24:19.439
to Wallstreet Window dot com, read
that JFK article on my site his or

1109
01:24:19.479 --> 01:24:25.199
the aa r c's website a ARC
dot org. Yeah, go do that.

1110
01:24:25.439 --> 01:24:29.439
Buy the books The War State or
Why the Vietnam War. Look out

1111
01:24:29.479 --> 01:24:31.800
for volume two coming up soon be
in the No go to Wallstreet Window dot

1112
01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:38.000
com anytime except Mike's on vacation until
sometime at the beginning of the year coming

1113
01:24:38.079 --> 01:24:41.920
up. So until then, remember
this, I'm merely O'Kelly. All of

1114
01:24:42.000 --> 01:25:15.399
you are oh Chili dot com,
Wall Street, set Window dot dot gold

1115
01:25:16.439 --> 01:25:25.600
Sewer, the stock market, Wall
Street Window Dott. Perhaps you're invested deeply,

1116
01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:30.199
Perhaps you're not in deep enough.
Maybe you're thinking about getting started Wall

1117
01:25:30.279 --> 01:25:34.359
Street Windows on condos dot Com.
Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of the

1118
01:25:34.399 --> 01:25:40.359
War State, understood these trends professionally
for many years, and now he gives

1119
01:25:40.359 --> 01:25:47.439
you the benefit of his knowledge.
Wall Street Streetdow Dott Go there, now,

1120
01:25:47.600 --> 01:25:55.079
go there, now, go there
now revelation through conversation dot Com Radio

1121
01:25:55.239 --> 01:26:00.720
network go ahead today as right,
Well, what do you want to know?

1122
01:26:00.880 --> 01:26:04.760
Ddy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he
knew ruby and very handswer weapons.

1123
01:26:04.800 --> 01:26:08.640
Really, I imagine I could claim
I have four wheels. It doesn't make

1124
01:26:08.640 --> 01:26:12.119
me a wagon. But okay,
Oswald, I'm the building and I'm trying

1125
01:26:12.159 --> 01:26:14.920
to prevent the murder of John Kennedy. Come on now, has a real

1126
01:26:15.000 --> 01:26:18.840
effort on the day of pay assassination
in claim. Go to Amazon dot com

1127
01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:24.399
enter Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get the results for a digital

1128
01:26:24.399 --> 01:26:29.399
copy of a book where Walt Brown
utilizes her own words and the known evidence

1129
01:26:29.399 --> 01:26:33.000
in the case. To get at
well a different perspective, let's say you

1130
01:26:33.039 --> 01:26:38.680
can get Judith Ary Baker in her
own words from the author himself, signed

1131
01:26:38.720 --> 01:26:44.880
if you request it by contacting doctor
Brown at ki as jfk at aol dot

1132
01:26:44.920 --> 01:26:48.640
com. It's a fun book and
it actually dissects the many, many fantastic

1133
01:26:48.720 --> 01:26:53.640
claims. Judith Very Baker in her
own words, thank you for all the

1134
01:26:53.680 --> 01:26:58.760
great information. The War State by
Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation that

1135
01:26:58.840 --> 01:27:01.600
took place and put the ken Any
presidency in the context of the times and

1136
01:27:01.720 --> 01:27:08.119
reveals never before published information about the
Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not

1137
01:27:08.199 --> 01:27:12.680
have been assassinated if he had been
president two hundred years ago. His assassination

1138
01:27:12.800 --> 01:27:15.399
took place in the context of the
Cold War and the rise of the national

1139
01:27:15.399 --> 01:27:19.880
security state. Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.

1140
01:27:20.199 --> 01:27:25.199
In the decade that followed, it
became an imperial superpower. Generals such

1141
01:27:25.239 --> 01:27:29.159
as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to
invade Cuba, but knew that there were

1142
01:27:29.199 --> 01:27:32.600
short range missiles on the island armed
with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy

1143
01:27:32.720 --> 01:27:36.399
because they were on mobile launchers.
Their invasion could have led to a Third

1144
01:27:36.439 --> 01:27:41.840
World War, and they wanted to
go to war anyway. The War State

1145
01:27:41.920 --> 01:27:45.600
by Michael Swanson reveals why and will
show you what President Kennedy was up against.

1146
01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:51.359
For more information, The Warstate dot
com. In Denial The Secret Wars

1147
01:27:51.439 --> 01:27:58.520
with Air Strikes and Tanks by Larry
Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of

1148
01:27:58.640 --> 01:28:03.520
US covert operation and are still happening
today. Larryhancock's book In Denial rips the

1149
01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:08.520
cover off many of them, using
new files. It exposes things about the

1150
01:28:08.520 --> 01:28:12.520
Bay of Pigs that no one has
ever written about before. It shows why

1151
01:28:12.560 --> 01:28:15.479
it really failed and why the United
States did not earn from it. It

1152
01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:20.680
also shows why other countries today are
doing secret operations with more success. This

1153
01:28:20.880 --> 01:28:26.359
is the book that puts what some
want to deny into the light. In

1154
01:28:26.439 --> 01:28:32.439
Denial, Secret Wars with Air Strikes
and Tanks Larryhncock. For more information,

1155
01:28:32.640 --> 01:28:38.079
go to Larry hyphen Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy of In Denial

1156
01:28:38.199 --> 01:28:43.159
at Amazon dot com. In digital
or physical Nuclear Holocaust, you know what

1157
01:28:43.279 --> 01:28:46.479
uranium is? Right? Think on
nuclear weapons and other things like lots of

1158
01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:51.079
You know what uranium is? Right. Bad things things have done with uranium,

1159
01:28:51.079 --> 01:28:56.239
including some bad things. Nuclear holocaust. You know what uranium is,

1160
01:28:56.319 --> 01:29:00.279
right, I've been brief Nuclear holocaust, nuclear holocaus. You know what uranium

1161
01:29:00.359 --> 01:29:04.760
is right? Think called nuclear weapons
and other things like let's say you know

1162
01:29:04.760 --> 01:29:10.279
what uranium is right. Bad things
things are done with uranium, including some

1163
01:29:10.359 --> 01:29:16.960
bad things Nuclear Holocaust, nuclear holloulear
Holocaust, Nuclear Holocaust, nuclear holocaust,

1164
01:29:17.359 --> 01:29:21.720
nuclear holoy. Do you like history, real history that you were never taught

1165
01:29:21.760 --> 01:29:28.840
in schools? Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and nation Building in Southeast

1166
01:29:28.840 --> 01:29:33.760
Asia by author Mike Swanson, with
new documentation never seen before that will open

1167
01:29:33.840 --> 01:29:39.159
your eyes to events that led up
to this. Why the Vietnam War,

1168
01:29:39.439 --> 01:29:45.479
Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in Southeast
Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen sixty one.

1169
01:29:45.800 --> 01:29:51.239
Get your copy today at Amazon dot
com. Why the Vietnam War by

1170
01:29:51.279 --> 01:31:06.000
author Mike Swanson, Stay a n