You got ready, Chuck O'Kelly, and it's been known for many years.
Supplying UFK research. You're specializing INTELLIVITGC involvement in multiple assassinations, PROMA again and
other guild of criminal operations in the twentieth and twenty first centuries. Street March
the o' chile effect is sponsored by Wall Street, Windows dot Com and listeners
like you Now and Now, the most Underrated Noise and All Media check Olly
December seven, twenty twenty three. Allegedly according to that thing we call a
calendar, and guess what, we're live on Ocelli dot com just about five
minutes after the hour, getting a late start, but if you're hearing the
podcast, you don't care because you're playing it on your time schedule. Right
anyway, It's Thursday, Thursday, and uh yeah, it's been an interesting
week so far. I haven't gotten out Albert Lanier's piece from last night,
but there is going to be an accompanying article with it, so a few
things will get published tonight on the overnight, I'm sure. But it's good
to be alive on a Thursday. Why because most Thursdays I either have Mike
Swanson or Larry Hancock with me, and thankfully I've got Mike Swanson with me
tonight. Haven't had him on in about a month, I think, Uh,
geez, yeah, because we had Dallas. We had the break before
Dallas, we had the break after Dallas. I was sick. I think
Mike was traveling. So the man behind Wall Street Window dot com, the
author of the War State and also why the Vietnam War, which was interesting
because we didn't have enough books at the conference to make people happy. There
was people with money. We didn't have books for them at the conference at
Lancer. But I'm gonna let Mike tell you a little bit about that and
some other stuff. Plus, Hey, I published an article from Mike what
about maybe a week ago now, I guess it's been a week. I
don't know. Time is flying by here on the front of the webs,
so you might notice that as well. Uh. And it's not because he's
a sponsor that I published this. I found it interesting, the document he
found, the article he wrote, and all of that. As per usual,
I appreciate Mike's writing. Uh, He's not just here because he's a
sponsor and and also easy to talk to. H he's here because he's definitely
somebody I like you guys to hear from, and really happy to have the
one and only Mike Swanson with me. How you doing tonight, Mike,
Oh, I'm doing good. It's great to talk with you. It's been
uh, I guess three weeks since we met in Dallas. It was a
great trip. Oh yeah, well, geez, that was that was three
weeks ago. And then, like I said, it took me, geez,
almost three weeks to recover from the trip. Did you get your called
a lot of people? No? No, I was fine. I mean,
as I found out from you, multiple people got sick and one person
had this the COVID, and I was with them Sunday after you left.
Yeah, about ninety minutes, sitting right next to him at the bar.
So yeah, I didn't. Maybe I already got it because well maybe my
mom. Yeah, maybe your system. Maybe your system was already prepared.
Because there's actually there's actually two people that I can name. I'm not going
to name anybody because I don't want to bring it out. But the thing
is, there's actually two people that that I'm not sure if it's my business
to name it, you know, privacy and whatnot. But what I'm saying
is is that privately, I've heard from two people that they said they tested
positive for the Corona And now there's also a couple other people that said they
caught this or that on the trip, and me and B Pete both were
pretty ill h for weeks. So you know, I had what I think
is a flu. It wasn't Corona because I didn't, you know, lose
the sense of taste entirely. I didn't have the Corona symptoms, so I
don't think it was it. But I definitely got some kind of flu from
there, and and somebody else said they had a stomach bug after going to
Dallas. I'm like, WHOA. I guess that hotel was even worse than
I thought, which, by the way, I did not enjoy the hotel.
You might have listened to that episode what we did right after the trip
where I talked about it a little bit with B Pete, But yeah,
I did. I did actually tell me I'm lying about any of the stuff
I said in that in that podcast. I'm not going to talk bad about
the hotel. I'm not gonna say nothing good about it either. See That's
what I mean. It was it's a strange place. Mike me, like,
they just throw up some weird art stuff to jack up the price.
It's what they do, you know, that's what they did. Okay,
But look, Mike, Mike is a nice guy. And I was talking
to somebody. Somebody asked me recently, what's it like to hang out with
Mike Swanson. I said, it's just it's just like the guy you hear
on air. He's a nice guy's calm, he's you know, good natured.
He doesn't even want to say bad stuff, even if bad stuff was
happening there. I want to say bad stuff about the hotel. I love
it. I will, I don't care. Uh. I hope they hold
it somewhere else next year because hopefully you'll you'll you know, you know,
it looks like I might be able to go back. So you know,
if you're going to go back, and I'm going to go back, I
mean I might MC again. Maybe maybe you'll do a presentation, maybe you'll
just go as a spectator. I don't know whatever is up to you,
but I definitely would like to, uh again, feature your books at my
table and see if we can, you know, get get some sales.
This time, because I gave away some of your books and uh, and
then people wanted the war state and I didn't have copies and there was nothing
I could do about it. People requesting it. And in fact, one
lady came up to you right after your presentation, right, Uh, do
you want to tell that story real fast? Yes, she wanted. I
had, you know, a copy in my hands at the Vietnam both books
actually, because I'd just given the presentation that brought them to it, and
was I was planning on looking through quoting parts of but I have time to
do that, But so I sold. I gave her those two copies that
actually, and then later in the day she wanted to buy them. So
she gave me twenty bucks for him, or maybe twenty bucks apiece for him
or something she did. I'll tell you what it was. You you were
customed, Well, she gave me twenty a piece. I gave you one
of them. Yeah. What happened was because I was I was like,
hey, look I told you this is a great book and everything, and
you're like, well, look, since you're out here selling my books.
You she gave you forty bucks for the two books, which is more than
she would have paid on Amazon, but she was like, I don't want
to. I don't want to go through Amazon. I just want the books,
can you know? So I'm going to give you the money even though
you gave her the books, which was funny. Now, a couple of
other people I know took your book off my table and probably threw a dollar
in my tip yard because I didn't specify they had to put in any specific
amount of money. So I lost money on a bunch of things there,
believe it, all that stuff I printed. I mean you saw the stuff
I gave away too, right? Oh yeah, well next time, you
know we go. If we go next year, I'll have a lot more
copies. I'll send you a bunch before, I mean, make sure I
have some. We'll figure out an arrangement on it. But I mean,
I'm thinking even if I got stuff on the table that I can sell for
ten bucks, I'll do that next time because that's a reasonable amount of money
for anything, and that's what I'm gonna do. But anyhow, forget about
strategies and on my seller's table, which didn't go well this time, but
I'm sure we got plenty of people with different logos out there. You know,
your logos included on that weird compilation shirt I did with the other podcasters
too. Oh great, yeah, so I mean the Wall Street window logo.
It had to be on there, you know, with Doug Campbell involved,
because he was like, hey, look, you got to put Mike's
I said, of course, I got Mike's logo on there. You kidding
me. He's my main sponsor, so you know, so you were on
there. His podcast artwork is on there, and Rob's also on the front
of the shirt, and then the back is all the answer information. And
it turns out it was the only t for the event because Lancer was trying
to get T shirts made and didn't have them ready in time. So here
we are. Anyways, so away from the merchandise, let's get into this.
But I thought it was funny that that lady came back and literally paid
you for the books even after you gave them to her. So and yes,
indeed, Mike turned around and said, well, here, since you've
been pushing my books all week, and he gave me one of the twenties,
lady gave him forty bucks. Anyways, I thought it was great.
Anyhow, well, you had a couple of listeners that came too, and
it was neat to meet them. Yeah, that was a lot of fun
and a couple of them. It was funny because, like I said,
a couple of the people that listened to the show were like, oh,
I was hoping to get a copy of The War State from you, because
I had like acquired maybe two of them, you know, through different things.
I just happened to have two copies and I gave them away. Like
I said, I was giving stuff away, and I gave away your Vietnam
book to people because I really want I think if some people read it,
gonna recommend it, and you're gonna wind up with more sales. But anyways,
yeah, so that was going on, and I really do support the
idea that people need to read this stuff. There's stuff in your book that's
still to this day, is not really in everybody else's books. Nobody writes
exactly like you. And I'm not just kissing up to you because you're my
sponsor again, but it's just it's a simple fact. Anyway, let's get
to that. Because you did a presentation at Lancer. I don't know if
you want to talk about that, but you did also do this article,
which is which is interesting because again a document that I don't recall anybody else
pointing any attention onto ever spotlighting before. Obviously it exists, it's in the
archives, but wasn't one of those things that caught other people's attention. So
maybe you could talk about that a little bit. And again it is published
on the front page at o'helly dot com. It's also on Wall Street Window
dot com and at the Assassination I always screw this up, the assassination,
the archives page, the A R R C or what. Let me find
that real fast because they published it as well. Yeah, so let me
find that real fast. And you tell people about what it is that you
chose to write this article about, Like, why is it that you found
this important? Just you know somebody hasn't seen it yet, Mike, explain
it to them. Well, before I get the article, I want to
I want to bring up I thought I've had since the concert with you,
okay about the assassination, and we'll get into the article. But I've told
I know, I've told not on maybe on the air, I don't know,
but I know i've told you and Carmine and other people that I always
figured that the person who was the so called mastermind, if you want to
use that phrase, would be someone that's probably we you know, really a
relative of no, not one of the famous people, and we probably don't
know who the person is, and if we did, we wouldn't recognize them,
you know, that probably be an obscure person, not like in other
words like that, I don't. Let's just say for argument's sake that,
uh, well, among the four of us, I would say that Larry
Hancock, Okay, who is the guy who I would defer to in this
grouping more than no offense to you, Mike, But I would defer to
Larry on the shoot. But Larry agrees as well as Carmine, myself and
you, we all have this point of view. And I don't know if
you originated it or you were the first one to say it, but I
gotta say this is something that we all agree on, which is, if
there is indeed a singular mastermind, or if there is just like a group
of two or three people, the likelihood that those names or that one name
is well known it is one of the ones that's been focused on, is
very low. It is in all likelihood somebody whose name you don't know,
because really the most powerful people protect themselves, they insulate themselves from being known.
It's it's the old see again, I'll point to organized crime in reality,
the guys who really ran things quite well and had the largest organized crime
empires. You didn't know their names. You didn't know who the boss was.
You just didn't. I mean, you had an idea about the family
name or what, but you didn't really know them. They were not,
you know, in the newspapers written out. Yeah, I'm not I've never
really thought about organized crime. That's not what I'm thinking about. But it
might be a good parallel. But yeah, that's my that's my idea.
I'm saying that if you apply that idea, would it be something like this
where but I don't know who the you know, the organized crime bosses are,
but just say the boss, the family boss. Uh, it's not
some of Maybe there's a scenario where yeah, she's not running everything, he's
not micromanaging everything. That's true. Yeah, I think you know what from
what I stand from movies is that people come to them with their problems and
then they are told what to do or given told what the solution is right.
So but that's the point. It's okay, you may know the guy
who's the family name is under and that kind of thing, but you know
who you don't know is the guys who actually get stuff done, right.
Those names are not I mean yet, we learned about Sammy the Bull Gravano,
but believe me, Sammy the Bull was a name that wasn't in the
newspapers at for a long time. You wouldn't have known who Sammy Gravano was
when he was really really powerful. When these guys are really seriously powerful and
in action and getting things done and the body counts are really climbing, the
FBI doesn't know who they are. The newspapers don't know who they are.
And that's the same way this kind of you know, spook stuff works in
you know, in these kind of operations, you don't really you know who
Angleton is, but you don't know all the guys that really got stuff done.
Like even you're somebody who studied this stuff deeply. If I said to
you, okay, who was Angleton's guy in France? You don't know that
off the top of your Yeah. If I said to you, well,
who was Angleton's guy, you know, as far as Mexico goes, you
know, outside not the CIH station chief, but I mean his counterintelligence people
who were his active officers in Mexico, you'd still go uh, because you
don't know. See, that's the thing. The people that are really getting
the job done are not well known, because that's part of getting the job
done. You're not calling attention to yourself. It's the unseen that is the
most dangerous. And I think that applies in organized crime as well as in
let's just call it the spook world in general, in intelligence work. Right,
So if we are to contend that this was some sort of black op,
that this was some sort of military intel operation, that this was some
sort of conglomeration of criminal elements plus some sort of again let's just call it
what what you know, the most general basic thing we could the spook world
coming together. Well, here it is. You're not going to know the
names of the movers and shakers for the most part, and even the guys
that they turned around and studied that you know, they've forced down our throats.
Now through the literature, and again you ask common people on the ground.
You know, most people who are not really truly occupied with this sort
of thing, and don't get into the niche research of one of these circumstances,
the assassination or the CIA, or the development of the intelligence agencies in
America. You hand him a name, they might not James Jesus Angleton.
They go what they don't even know what you're talking about when you talk about
people like that, you know, so when you get into it, yeah,
it would very likely be an unknown name. And that's the way the
operators would be on all levels, I think, which is the important part
of this. So and I agree with you. I've always agreed with you
on this, and like I said, between the four of us, having
been talking so much over almost you know, ten years now together, I
would say that none of us has ever disagreed with this idea. That really
truly, if you were to pin down a mastermind, if you were to
pin down the main organizer, if you were to pin down the guy who
gave the orders, it would in all likelihood be some name you never heard,
some name you might have run across somewhere but not have given it a
second thought. Or it would be a fake pseudonym, you know, something
like this it's not going to be the you know, the people that run
around screaming Alan Dallas, Alan Dallas. They clearly have no clue what's going
on because they're going to the most obvious name. They're going to the CIA
director. And true, Dulles is a key player in many things at a
certain point, but at the point in time that he was really truly powerful.
Fact is I don't think anybody knew his name, you know what I'm
saying. So what do you think of that, Mike, No, that's
the line of thought that I share my what kind of one of the things
that influenced me in thinking that way was I've read lots of history books and
I've read I've read a bunch of books about Hitler in Nottz, Germany,
and there's a lot of academic studies into how the Holocaust evolved, and they've
been able because of the all the records that were captured, you know,
of the Nazi records, they're pretty well able to reconstruct of how it evolved,
who was making the decisions, and who came up with ideas in that.
What's interesting to me isn't so much the event in this discussion, isn't
so much the event of the Holocaust. But if you think of Nazi Germany
as being a national security state, that was something like a covert operation.
And the record shows that Hitler did There was no meeting where Hitler, you
know, laid out this plan of I want to kill everyone in gas chambers
and do all this stuff instead and either did hist his the henchpin right below
them, such as Himmler, who was in charge of the SS, And
it was the SS that really carried out those operations. Instead, it was
people under him that came up with different ideas and then presenting it upwards and
then they got approved. So and even though World War two and and and
the Nazi you know, the rise and Paul the third Reichsman studied over and
over. Yeah, here's the funny part. A lot of these people people
you know, I don't remember their names. I mean, they're they're mentioning
a couple of books, but they're not right famous. See here's a point
that pops in my mind immediately, is that you would admit that the brown
Shirts, right, they were sort of the street level bullies. They played
a significant role in keeping the public, you know, in a certain check,
right, because they were out there on the streets literally beaten down to
centers and stuff like that. So the thing is they were essential to that
operation. At a certain point they dissolved the brown Shirts almost And the thing
is, now here's here's the fun part. Who was the guy who actually
was the brain behind the brown Shirts? Most people, even that study history,
don't even recognize the guy's name who was in charge of that, which
was an essential element to how they were able to bring the entirety of the
German society. Everybody goes, well, how do the Germans let this happen?
But I'll tell you partially how it's because of the work of the brown
Shirts laying things out in the beginning. And there was a guy named Rome
who's that was his last name in charge. Most people, even if they
think they're you know, history buffs, don't even know that. And that's
the funny part about this is that even these guys who are at the top
of the organization, Now you or I I'm gonna stump us both right now.
Who is Rome's lieutenant? Though? Do you know who Rome actually sent
out to do these things? To give the orders to coordinate the different brown
Shirt units on the street and you're kind of historian. A lot of other
historians, I bet you don't know it off the top of their head.
They got to turn to a book. And I don't know it off the
top of my head. Right now, I'm exposing myself here as somebody who's
not well read in the guy who is actually the responsible mechanic. There again,
his name not at the forefront of discussion of literature, et cetera.
Right or wrong. Yeah, I can't think of who it is off the
top of my head. I'm just saying, Look, it's just an example.
But please go ahead tell us about this article though, and uh,
and go go ahead. I agree with the thing about this line of thought,
though, is that I'd always thought we may not be able to know
who the name you know names are, But at the com that was leaving
the conference, that's something I've changed my mind about. So, and that's
from talking with David Boyan. So you see, I think it's knowable.
It's but it is a matter of fact that I think we're going to dig
through all of the other prominent names before we really get to the real guy,
because you have to understand how the infrastructure works. And by the way,
it's the Assassination Archives and Research Center that we were referring to before,
which is the A A r clibrary dot org website. And I put the
link in the chatroom at Ocelli dot com. I'll included with the show notes.
So yeah, I just want to let people know that that it was
printed over there. It was printed at Wall Street window and also Onocelli dot
com. So sorry, Mike, I wanted to give full credit credits.
Do go ahead. The thing about uh, what I what I think is
might be starting might happen with the JFK research community is all these documents have
come out over the past couple of years, and I know there's stuff.
Not everything has been released, but it may be that a lot uh me
put it this way. So I looked through some of the north Woods documents
now and they've been out, and uh and I saw in the in these
documents the names I've never seen before and one that I've been looking for or
wanted to know for several years, and that is who specifically was So that
Northwoods thing that's talked about a lot, the planning of that was done by
staff of one hundred people, right, Uh, that were members of the
Joint Chief Joint Staff under the Joint Jesus Staff, one hundred people in this
one division. Well, what I've wanted to know and haven't been able to
find out, was who was the person in charge of that group? You
know, who was really who was it? And his name is in uh
some of these docums. So now I know who that person is. That's
just one example. And now we could get to a so what, But
it takes a lot of people looking at this stuff. I just tell you,
I just want to tell the David Boyans story. So I've written two
introductions to two possible books. One is just about the Kenny assassination. One
see another Vietnam book. And in the Vietnam book, I think I actually
I may have read it on the show or talked about it at least what
it starts out talking about Lucian Conein. And there's a file that was released
in the JFK collection that is a debriefing of CIA guy who in the debriefing
mentions some stuff about Coneine, and I use that in this draft introduction.
I wrote, well, in that brief in that so I've read this file
and I'm using it and written about it. But in that discussion, he
tells the person interviewing him, you should go talk to this guy. He
knows more about what was going on at the Cuba Miami station that the day
he was running. Did I do well? You know, I just read
right by that. Well, David Boyan is really interested in this person and
told me why he's significant. They were the boss of David Morales. So
David Morales is someone written about in a lot of books. So is his
boss or the head of the head of the station was Ted Shackley. And
then and then there's a Dave Morales who's written a lot about. But there
was a person right in between Shakley and Morales, and that's this guy David
Boyan is interested in and and I saw his name in a document, read
right by it. He's a very significant person. He was head of operations
on that station. They have different divisions, so like if there's people doing
sabotage or doing operations, this guy was overseeing them. Well see, and
this guy might be the chief, the chief of operations for what they might
call the Cuba Project at the time, right, because that was the thing
they had catch all names for some of this stuff and then they had specific
names for it. And well this guy was working good. So this guy
was working the jam wave station. He was chief of operations at that station.
Oh, he was the chief of jam wave entirely. Okay, no,
no, no, Shackley was the chief of the station. Okay,
okay, yeah, no, I know that, But I mean the way
these things were working was that that was like a c A station you know,
in any other country, but this one was in Miami JM wave.
Ted Shackley was in charge of the station. This guy David Boyan was interested
is interested in was you know this Ted Shackley is in charge of a staff
of people I'd say five or six divisions or so. This guy was in
charge of operations, and then Morales would be working for him. Now Shackley
was answering up to the CIA headquarters. Yeah, under Desmond Fitzgerald was overseeing
him. And then you know, I get I guess the CIA director,
someone underneath the CI director would be his boss. Well, he's got to
answer to a couple of people above him. Yeah, who are you know?
Who are all eventually supposedly answerable to the the head of the c I
A right I mean, this is the command structure. But what's weird is,
again you got a guy who might be his technical job title is he's
operations chief for that station or whatever, but he could have responsibility specific sub
operations where like, okay, you're you're also the guy who's going to handle
all the Cuba projects. Maybe you're the guy who's going to handle monitoring the
communists in Florida, you know whatever, Brian, there could be different things.
You're going to be part of the co intel pro thing that monitors are
domestic subversives, you know whatever. They have other so they have a job
title and then they have job responsibilities. Yeah, two things. Yeah,
good to give you an example what you're talking about. So there's another figure.
Some people are interested in. A Colonel Howard Burris right now. He
was Lennon Johnson's military advisor. And it turned and I was reading a book
which said quoted another book in which the quote was incorrect, and it said
that he was on the planning staff the Joint chiefs of Staff too, under
an Air Force general. Well, I look that all up and it turned
out he was working for this Air Force general, but not on the Joint
chief Staff but for the Air Force staff. So the boy is he had
two jobs. The Burroughs guy was working on the on the Air Force staff
and working as Johnson's military advisor. Well see, but that's the point is
they have it. Okay, look, let's let's clear this all up.
In some cases, they have a job that is their main job, and
then they have other responsibilities that are attached to that job. Now that's one
case. Another case here when we get into this stuff, is you have
people who have jobs in quotes with the State Department, right, but they're
actually CIA people. They collect a paycheck from the State Department. They have
a cover job, and there are some jobs that are interchangeable on paper,
and then there's other jobs that are not. Right, Like you know,
in the case of the Joann Edese thing that happened with Congress, this guy's
the liaison for the CIA to the HSCA. Okay, that is his current
job responsibility. But was that, you know, really his job. No,
he had another job, another paymaster and somebody else he was reporting to.
You have this stuff going on, not just in black ops, but
in general operations. There's a whole bunch of people that are attached to these
different embassies in foreign nations, right, And they're there allegedly as part of
the State Department, to be part of the Diplomatic Corps, to be part
of the liaisons, to be part of negotiations, right, And meanwhile they're
actually there as spies. They have a job title, they have a paper
job title, and it gets very confusing. Wouldn't you admit that this is
a bit of a confusing subject for most people who are to share. You
have a job, you have a job title, you have a job description,
and you might have responsibilities that go along with that job description. It's
not that simple when you start to get into these kinds of areas with the
State Department, with the spook world, any which way you want to go,
whether it's CIAOSSO n I, any of this stuff. You may have
an on paper job that has responsibilities, then an off the books job,
a cover job. I mean, there's lots of different things going on here
to where you could develop multiple paper trails. Like you said, you got
this guy who is being described as incorrectly as being part of the Joint Chiefs,
but he's not. He's part of the Air Force Brass Staff, right.
And sometimes these people get named as secretaries under certain group. They're not
secretaries, okay, they are read in as secretaries so they can be part
of being given access to some of this stuff, right because technically they're supposed
to be recording things. They're the aid for this person. They're the aid
for that person. And meanwhile, whether that person knows it or not,
they could be serving to masters. Sure they're behaving as their aid. They're
recording stuff, they're keeping documents, making sure that all things that are supposed
to be forwarded to the general, the admiral, whatever are properly sent to
them. But also they're keeping track of certain things and making sure to funnel
some of that information back to their other boss. Right. So this kind
of thing goes on, and it's hard to sort of parse it all out
for somebody, isn't it. I mean I'm trying to go to I'm trying
to just like weave through this verbally with you because it could sound very confusing
to the average listener. No, oh sure, sure, okay, So
anyway to bring it back to where we were, and I find it interesting
and the philosophy overall about the Kennedy assassination Foreshore I think that it's because we
need to constantly refine what it is we're looking at. Indeed, we can
get those names, but they're not likely to be the ones that we've run
across and tripped over one hundred times already. I think that it's going to
require refinement, much like Larry Hancock is saying, we need to reevaluate our
view of Lee Rby Oswall, for instance, because new information has become available.
Certain things that were mysterious are no longer mysterious, certain things that were
formerly unknown or now known, etc. Etc. I think the same thing
stands even when you're looking at the proper and possibly improper structures of these different
classified organizations, these different national security organizations one way or another. I think
all of these things require constant refinement and reevaluation. What do you think,
Oh, oh, they do, and I suspect what's gonna happen. You
know, we've seen in the case in the in this historical case, topic
changes in what people think, you know, an evolution of understanding over this
as more information has come out, and you know, from after the I'm
not gonna go all the way to the beginning, but just we'll just start
use the JAF the period of time when that JFK movie came out as one
point of reference. You know, after that, Uh, there's a better
understanding of Kennedy's foreign policy. First in regards to Vietnam. Uh, the
movie really drew a lot of attention to the work of John Newman and even
even some of the Fletcher Proudy stuff uh in Peterdale Scott really but then a
deeper understanding even beyond just that, of things such as the Cuban missile crisis,
the the nuclear arms race, Kennedy's views to the Third World, more
details on his dealings in Cuba. I don't know if it was known that,
you know, he was had a two track policy sort of with Castro
and had some peace viewers going out today of the assassination, and he had
a back channel, he had a back chack channels. And what's also interesting
is, again in that time period you're talking about, in the nineteen nineties,
you see the release of some very interesting information like in book form you
have Ordeal in Africa and some other stuff which actually showed the American people who
weren't necessarily aware unless they were really really well studied on you know, all
of John F. Kennedy's history, which most people weren't that he had a
very different view, had different experiences that actually traveled, you know, to
Southeast Asia to some of these places to take a look at things for himself
at a certain point when he was congressman. So those things went on,
even the work of say, you know in JFK and the unspeakable interesting piece
of work. Now that's after the turn of the century, and we hear
from you know, oh my goodness, I'm trying to think doctor Douglas,
James Douglas. We hear from James Douglas about that, and the very interesting
communications that went on with various members of the Kennedy family even you know,
So there's all kinds of interesting aspects here which started to become known. Now
you have Ordeal in Africa. You have people's re examination of the policies in
Vietnam because certain things have become declassified. You have Northwoods coming out, You
have you know, showing a very different view of what was going on with
Cuba, which is not necessarily as clear cut as what was the public image.
Right. You have again Newman's work, where the idea was, hey,
you know, people want to blame well, Kennedy started the war in
Vietnam, Well, yes and no. And also he was looking to get
us out of there until guess when the week end of the assassination seems like,
you know, right then and there, and it just so happens that
three weeks earlier, you know, the president and his brother were murdered as
well, you know, of South Vietnam. All of this stuff created a
new context through which you had to look at this through an entirely different lens,
and that gives you a new idea. Now again, that shifts all
of the sands on which everything is standing, right, the political climate,
the behind the scenes stuff, his communications with even Cruise Steff behind behind the
wall of secrecy, and indeed what went on during the Cuban missile crisis.
I got to look back to see when they actually published the transcripts. But
you remember they published what was it called thirteen days in May or something like
that, No, thirteen days or whatever, it was the two period of
the Cuban missile crisis they actually put out the transfer to the tapes. I
got to go look that up real fast to see what year that was.
But this all got read into the literature around the same time period, and
this is pretty much when I was coming into the assassination in the first place,
right right at the end of my high school years, into the time
when JFK gets released and we have the outcry for release the records, release
the records being joined by people getting angry about that slide at the end of
the JFK movie, which caused the JFK Records Collection Act to get passed in
the first place, which had other results. Right. So this is a
real domino effect if you think about it, and this should have led to
a change of ideas and people had a lot more access to what was really
going on behind the scenes, in front of the scenes, the reality of
what was being moved around. I mean, I doubt that people had any
clue publicly about the fact that we came very close to a nuclear war over
you know what, not just Vietnam where they were saying, let's use nukes,
not just well, maybe we'll have to nuke Cuba, but how about
this East and West Germany about came to military blows and people didn't know about
that at all. That was like kept out of the public's view. Wasn't
it. So, I mean, there is a lot that was revealed I
would say between the twenty fifth anniversary and the fiftieth anniversary that changes the entire
view that anybody could have of what was really going on at the time of
the assassination in geopolitics, in domestic politics as well, because there's a lot
of stuff there too. We of course learned more about cointelpro learned more about
the surveillance, the struggles there, the different things going on. There was
the public face of it, the face offs with the different Southern governors over
universities and segregation and so on and so forth, which Kenny was in point.
And then Johnson, I think begrudgingly most likely picked up the banner for
after his death because he had the power to do it. And we know
that even based on some of the laws that were passed through Congress afterwards,
right the Landmark legislation, the civil rights stuff that Johnson was able to push
through literally almost riding on the back of Kennedy's corpse because of this was Kennedy's
work. We should finish it out of respect to him. Was definitely something
that shifted some people that were being hardline about it, right, So,
I mean there is a whole revelation that occurs here when we're starting to get
a better viewpoint of these things. And that's why, you know, I
really hate it when people say, well, it doesn't matter what they did
classify, it doesn't matter what they released, doesn't change anything. Yes,
it does. It gives us a much better view of what was actually happening,
you know, both behind the scenes and in front of these scenes and
what was being shown to the public. You now get an idea about what
was being allowed to be shown to the public and what was being withheld.
So this is extremely educational all the way around, I think. Anyway,
in that entire spirit, Mike, I want to get to your article,
because where do we start with the assassination. I was looking at this.
They did a mini series, by the way, and every streaming service out
there. I don't know if you're aware of this, but pretty much every
streaming service released something to commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of the assassination. Right.
I mean you you noted this, right, I really didn't cut off all
the streams. Oh that's right, Yeah, you're taking a break. Well,
allow me allow me to inform you it's cool. But you know,
some people were talking about it at the conference that like, look you name
it. Netflix has you know, added some things to their playlist. They
didn't produce anything new. But if you take a look at Paramount Plus and
Disney and National g and of course Oliver Stone's new documentary got play on a
bunch of different platforms, a whole lot of platforms wanted to make sure that
they put out either brand new or relatively new pieces. The thing what did
the doctors see on Paramount Plus is again a revisitation of the Parkland doctors,
except this time you will not recognize some of them because they were just medical
students at the time who had happened to work on Kennedy as well. Because
there was a lot of doctors swirling around. I mean, you remember the
doctors that we saw, say on the Nova special in the nineteen eighties,
because I'm sure you've seen that one hundred times, right, you know the
guys who show the back of the head and you see Audrey Bell and McClellan
and Chuck Crenshaw. You know those guys, Chuck Crenshaw who published Oh my
goodness, what was that a trauma room one, the book, and then
the AMA went after him, all those things you might remember. But some
of these other medical students, some of these other you know, they say
their doctors. I'm not sure exactly what their status was. They were residents
at the time, second year resident, this and that. But the medical
students, a different nurse, all kinds of different people and some of those
familiar names to us all come together. They did an interview in twenty thirteen,
a collective interview, and they also showed different observations and historical films and
all that, and brought this together as a brand new special on Paramount Plus.
Like I said, Disney in cooperation with National Geographic, so it's on
both platforms. National Geographic as a streaming platform, also did this. Most
of the networks had at least a special presentation. The History Channel strangely didn't
rerun The Men Who Killed Kennedy once again, but they did run a couple
of things, you know, JFK Declassified I think was one of them.
Anyway, Discovery, all these different corporate entities pretty much wanted to get in
on We've got something special for you on the sixty at the anniversary, so
it occurred to me watching and I just they released it the one thing just
a couple of days ago on the Disney platform, and also another one on
Discovery just a couple of days ago, and I was watching that, and
the first part of it is all about, you know, the police response
in Dallas pretty much, and it is in conjunction and they cooperated. They
have a big notation constantly running through it. We are doing this with historical
cooperation with the sixth Floor Museum. I'm like, oh god, so you
know you know what that means. It's gonna be Oswald did it, and
that's all there is to it. But even there, they talk about some
of the controversies and they showed some really good historic footage. They have some
stuff that's been colorized. I've never seen colorized before. They said that they
were going to show footage that's never been shown before. I disagree that they
did that, unless you want to count the fact that they now have like
Oswald and color at the midnight press conference. You know, but it's just
colorized footage because initially that was filmed in black and white. Anyway, But
either way, I'm looking at it and I'm going, this is really fascinating
because they're not going to ask a lot of questions that those of us on
the conspiracy advocacy side would be asking, like about the motorcade. They let
you know, for instance, a district attorney Wade's whole thing go by that
says, well, I'm very sure he planned this for either months or weeks
in advance, and da da da da. And as you well know,
if you've been a longtime listener of mine, Carmin Sabistano argues that Oswald had
no more than seventy two hours to plan, if indeed he planned any of
this. And if you're accepting that he's a lone shooter, you're accepting that
he had seventy two hours to plan maximum. And I agree with Carmine's timeline
on this because the you know, the motorcaide route was not known, not
publicly, and indeed internally it was not known the motorcade route, and all
of that is very important that people are still arguing about this. And meanwhile,
your article ties directly into one of the things that should be examined if
you want to understand when that motorcade route was decided, who decided it,
and why you know even the discussion about whether it was going to be at
the Trademark or it was going to be at this other there was a Woman's
Voting League call or something like this. There was more than one end location
for the motorcade, and indeed, if they had gone with the Women's Hall,
they would have never made the turn from Houston on to Elm because they
would have just continued down Main Street. I mean you're aware of that,
right, Mike. Yeah, That's that's what the document's about. So yeah,
well but I'm just saying that in general, that's kind of known.
But now I hand it over to you, it's talk about what's in the
document, what you discovered, and why this is interesting. Do you think
I'm making a case for why this is interesting or do you need to add
to it. Well, there's a lot of interesting things in the document,
but the reason I went to find it was to look into these motorcad questions.
But there's even more interesting stuff in it than that. But the motorcade
is interesting enough, So there's a I mean, you can't the motorcade route
had two possible routes, one where it would go straight down Main Street and
hit industrial Boulevard and then get on Stemens Freeway. If it would have done
that, it wouldn't have gone on the route that we that it did go
that resulted in Kenny being shot. And that's where instead of going straight to
Industrial Avenue, it took that turn on Houston and then onto Elm Street in
front of the Texas school Book Depository. So if it had gone and bypassed
that and just going straight down Main Street, Kennedy wouldn't have been shot.
But obviously that's not what happened. Well, and you and I and you
and I standing on the overpass, okay in twenty seventeen, and this is
part of my JFK film O'Kelly on the Grassy Knoll where Mike Swanson appears in
it and is also a cameraman. So there you go. Full credits to
you, Mike. We're standing on the overpass and looking at that part of
the route right where Main Street comes in. We're looking over Dealey Plaza from
the railroad bridge. A lot of people would refer to it as and literally
talking You and I were talking about look at that. If you just make
sense of it, why not use this other path or why not bypass it
in a different way. You didn't have to make that weird swooping turn where
the car slows down. You and I about this, and even we talked
about the use of a ramp, which is a fair idea something the Secret
Service could do. They definitely had the ability to change the flow of traffic
that day, or to interrupt it or block it off. It would have
been no problem to change that route so that they would have had no need
for that slow down and that turn onto Elm Street. It doesn't even matter
what the endpoint was. But even that six floor Museum endorsed you know,
three part documentary makes the point about this. Well, if it had been
on the other route, you know, they wouldn't have been as close to
the school book compository where Oswald fired from. You know, that's in the
Pro Warrant Commission, which, by the way, the EndNote on that entire
three part series is the Warren Commission concluded Oswald acted alone and Ruby acted alone.
Bye bye, good night, and that's it. They don't even mention
the House Select Committee nothing. But anyway, you and I even observed this
ourselves. It was interesting that there was no need for that weird hook turn
that slowed down the limousine. Right, So please continue though, and go
ahead and talk about it and tell us the rest of what you found in
this article or excuse me, in this document and uh and and what you
were trying to answer with it. Please. So I got into this topic
from reading Survivor's Guilt, the Vince Palmer a book, and he quotes different
Secret Service agents and from you know that he not just the interview, because
he's quoting from the HCA different reports on this motorcade route issue, and he
he can't figure out who made this decision to change it. Uh, No
one takes responsibility for it. And one of the things he quoted or is
used as a source, which was an HSCA report on the Secret Service and
it has a section about the motorcade and in that section it mentioned that it
interviewed a Deputy Chief, George Lumpkin, and he made a comment about uh
that they had they had they couldn't take straight down Industrial Avenue because uh,
it wouldn't provide Uh it was it'd go through a rougher neighborhood and it wouldn't
be good for crowds. That the President wanted Uh, well, wow,
this is another hang honest, this is another attempt though, I think,
and this is a general thing that kept happening, where they wanted to continuously
accuse, if you will, the president of almost being responsible for his own
assassination, which is a point Paul Meyer makes later when he's confronting, you
know, the the Kennedy detail in that book that nonsense right where he says,
look, they're continuously doing this. It's like a theme that goes on
where it's like, hey, it's all Kennedy's fault. He didn't want the
guys on the back of the limo, he didn't want to be far from
the crowds. He wanted the top open. You know, they pretty much
continuously placed blame on JFK himself for the circumstances that led to his assassination.
Which, by the way, I provided a link to survivor's guilt in the
O'Kelly chat room. It'll be in the show notes as well as well as
the document that Mike is talking about and which mentions this individual. So sorry
the notes with the listener, please continue. Mike. Though in Vince's work,
though he exhaustively interviewed people looked at the documents, went through the secret
I mean his Secret Service focus. There's very few people that would argue anybody
as an independent writer focused on research more or you know, whether you agree
with Vince's conclusions or not as up to you. But to argue that anybody
researched the Secret Service, its behavior and its structure and everything that day and
indeed involving JFK, you can't find a better source than Vince Paul Meyra,
right, Oh, He's done the best work on it, for sure,
bar none of anyone else. So the Secret Service, I'm sorry. They
just see a report section on the Secret Service that has a small section about
this motor cade issue. They have a sentence where they talk about Chief Lumpkin
saying that they couldn't take the industrial the Industrial Boulevard route. And it's not
clear, but from that sentence it sounded like it was possible it was his
decision. But I wanted to find out for sure, so I went to
their footnote and it referred to this document. The problem with the document is
that while declassified, it's not available online. It's not on the Narrow Database,
it wasn't on the Mary Ferreal database. So I had to request a
copy, hard copy from the National Archives and it, you know, and
I tried to do it during the COVID period and they wouldn't respond. So
it took me a year to get it, and then I finally get it.
And when you read it, it's it's interesting. So the first sentence
says Chief Lumpkin. Now, okay, what the document is is investigators,
staffers of the HSCA are interviewing Lumpkin really quickly, really quickly. Your starting
point was the HSCA, the report, the Final Assassination Report. Yeah,
that's where your starting point was. And then you found that footnote in there.
Yeah, they have a section they released not just the not the they
have a secondary volume. It's just about the Secret Service. Right, that's
that's the part of the final report. That's uh, that's what I was
looking at you. I just want to make that clear. Go ahead.
Yeah. So the very first these are the staffers writing, uh, you
know, after conducting their interview, you know, writing a memo report about
the interview. And curiously, the first sentence says Chief Lumpkin was involved in
the planning of the JFK motorcade. Uh, and it was primarily about this
matter that he was questioned. Well, when you read it, he says
chief Curry, Chief Curry caught all the shots. He did nothing. What's
funny is that Chief Curry is quoted, uh somewhere else is saying you had
nothing to do if any of this stuff himself, and who knows. But
Lumpkin was the deputy chief of police at the time, and so reading this
doesn't answer the question of who to me if you know, I can't find
out for reading this, who's responsible Either Curry is not telling the truth or
Lumpkin is not telling the truth, or they're both in error. You know
that there you can't get a straight story out of this on who's responsible for
change? For picking that motorcade route. Maybe I should have said the word
change, but picking the motorcate route and that final route wasn't decided but forty
eight hours before November the twenty second. So so, but what's what's interesting
though, First people need to understand Listen, Lumpkin was a very significant figure
who he's deputy chief of police. He was involved in all the meetings about
presidential security. They evolved Dallas police officers, they evolved the Secret Service,
and what was discussed is where to put different policemen on the route, how
to work together with the Secret Service, and the route was part of the
discussion itself. So he was in and all these meetings, and in this
document he really diminishes his role and he repeats that Curry caught all the shots.
But again, as I just said earlier, Curry claims he barely had
any involvement in any of this. Sounds like it wasn't even at most of
these meetings. But regardless, Lumpkin was never interviewed by the Warrant Commission report.
And what Lumpkin did on November twenty second, he was in the lead
car along with a Colonel George Wetmeyer, who was in charge of the Army
Reserve Unit in Dallas, one of the Army Reserve units, And when the
shots rang out and Kay was killed, the two of them in the lead
car took off and followed the limo that Kennedy was in to Parkland Hospital.
When they arrived at Parkland Hospital, Lumpkin then ordered the driver to go to
the Texas School Book Depository, and as the ranking police officer, when he
arrived there, he was in charge of the crime scene. He gave the
order to seal off the building and was in charge of all the officers inside
of it as they conducted the search. Now, once they got there,
he told mister Wetmire that he couldnot go in the building with him because of
the situation. So I don't know what happened to him afterwards. But a
curiosity in this document is that while Lumpkin was in all these meetings about presidential
security, he decided on his own initiative, according to what he says here,
to invite mister Wedemeier as his own personal guest. So I just find
that a curious situation, you know, I just how does that? I
just find it amazing that you have meetings about president's security with the Secret Service
and someone just invites someone as their guest. I mean, that sounds pretty
wild to me. He sounds a little out of order. And this guy
who was the you know, deputy chief, right, he's not exactly you
know, you'd think, Okay, Jesse Curry needs to be there because he's
going to coordinate everybody. Sheriff Decker needs to be there because he's going to
coordinate his troops, right, it's kind of an odd thing. Why is
this guy essential? And how is it that he's a key guy in all
these situations you find that Lumpkin is all over the place. By the way,
Yeah, he's never interviewed by the Work Commission Report as far as I
know. This document is the only interview with them. And you know,
I put up online on the on my website and you're sharing it too,
so it's it's an important document, right. Well, I just look,
I took it and I just made it into a you know, I took
the PDF and put it up so people could download it and see it for
themselves. I've also just added the the HSCA Report a link to it from
that website that is also hosting your article, the aa arclibrary dot org,
where you can, in fact, if you want, read uh, the
the HSCA Assassination Report for yourself and the specific areas that they cover. At
one point in there are agencies and departments of the US government performed with varying
degree of competency in the fulfillment of their duties. Okay, and the first
one is the Secret Service, And what is the title of that section?
The Secret Service was deficient in the performance of its duties. And it's really
the only major criticism. Everything else says, you know, okay, well,
like the Department of Justice failed to exercise initiative been supervising and directing the
investigation by the FBI. The FBI performed with varying degrees of competency in the
fulfillment of its duties. The CIA was deficient in its collection and sharing of
information both prior to and subsequent to the assassination. The Warrant Commission performed with
varying degrees of competency in their fulfillment of its duties. Okay, those are
the summations of the governmental agencies that they're willing to look at. Notice,
the only one that really has a role in being criticized for its behavior related
to the assassination. And when you read these things in full, it almost
seems like what we're saying, all the agencies could have done better. But
if you read the criticism, the only one that really gets criticized, ever,
is the Secret Service. You know, everything else is kind of like,
well, you know, they tried, but Secret Service kind of screwed
up. I mean, okay, so oh, thanks Captains obvious that would
be captain's obvious, not obvious captains right. Anyways, Captain's obvious are telling
us that the Secret Service might have not done a good job that day.
No kidding again, I remarked while I was looking at the historical footage that
you know, Clint Hill's the only guy in motion because everybody else is either
hungover or still drunk from the night before. But don't bring that up.
And they didn't, by the way, on the Pro Warrant Commission, you
know, documentary, and they had that Landis on there too, in a
very prominent role in that documentary talking about it, even though he resigned from
the Secret Service six months after claims to have been a broken man, kind
of has taken up part of Clinton Hill's you know, survivor's guilt issue.
You know, Clint Hill literally says at the close of that program, you
know, uh one, the only regret I having my you know, my
my major regret in my life is that I wish I could have gone back
and traded my life for John F. Kennedy's, even though his job that
day, and also Landis's job that day, was to protect Jacqueline Kennedy,
not John, but in general. Of course, Clint Hill is the only
one that you can visually watch kind of doing his job in that moment in
time when it was called upon, when protection was called upon. Anyway,
I'm just remarking on that for the sake of you know, when you think
about this, it's something to be thought about, you know, the behavior
of the Secret Service, And I always had to answer those questions. I
don't know, you know, previous to this time, when a lot of
information came out in the nineties. Mike, uh, you know, were
you interested in the Kennedy assassination as far back as I was and kind of
talking about it with people, you know, in the late eighties also,
were you into it? Then I start getting interested in it. I think
it was nineteen eighty nine, same as me, exact same as me.
Yeah, so this was before the JE came out right before that, but
around the time of the twenty fifth anniversary, which is eighty eight, when
there was a lot of like all of a sudden, there was radio programs
and TV programs, right, and they actually distributed that Vince Bugliosi mock trial
here in eighty eight. It was made in eighty six. But I'm fairly
certain. It was eighty eight when they really pushed it over here on Showtime
and other networks were able to play it. It was a British TV show
anyway. But do you remember having to talk about this when people saw this
abruder film and it was still not, you know, so commonly seen because
we didn't have you know, online world and all that by then, and
people were saying, why is it that nobody else tries to move except that
one guy? I mean, yeah, don't you remember that being one of
the earliest questions, So you know, to me back then, it it
was hard to try and explain that. You know, when I first learned
about this stuff in the nineties about them having been out drinking all night,
you know, early nineties, like before the Stone film came out. I
was surprised Oliver Stone didn't include that in his film, you know, that
the Secret Service was out drinking with the uh I think, you know,
at one point the Garrison character mentions it. But I was surprised that Stone
didn't really try and push it up front, like you know, these guys
were drunk or hung over one or the other. Because you know, my
understanding even back then is that they left fireman guarding the President in Fort Worth
and went out drinking, and some of them maybe didn't even come back until
just about the time that Kennedy emerged at like seven thirty in the morning.
Yeah, you know, which means I'm sorry, But no matter who you
are, if you're out drinking all night, you were working all day the
day before, you're not going to be the sharpest tack the next day or
a couple hours later or maybe an hour later after you've been drinking at the
Topless joint. Okay, And the latest they should have been there is about
four am, but there are certain accounts that say that they were there past
closing, right and we're drinking, you know, So what are we talking
about here? A bunch of guys that were clearly and by the way,
we've heard about these kind of things over the years with the Secret Service agents.
Some of them are out partying and stuff like that instead of being,
you know, on the job. So that's one thing, and I'm not
even saying that they're responsible, but it's something that does need to be pointed
out because whoever is responsible had an easier time of it because the Secret Service
was not at the top of their game. I mean, you know,
anyway, is it possible that the planning of the motor cat and all this
is significant in that they were allowing or being a little loose about stuff.
I mean, I'm thinking to myself, and I've heard things like this,
and I think Vince even points us out in some of his books that years
after they sort of used this as here's the example of stuff you don't do,
you know, when it came to presidential protection, the behavior of the
Secret Service agents. I mean really, as much as you know people want
to say, oh, this guy's a hero or that guy's a hero or
whatever. You know, just like they adjusted after the Reagan assassination attempt,
right, they had to make adjustments because the real world taught him some lessons.
You can't be this loose about this. You got to, you know,
keep a better eye on this or that or the third thing. And
it's really remarkable. But getting back to this thing about the planning of the
motorcade, why is it so significant that this guy Lumpkin is again, you
know, a barely referenced character anywhere. Well, here we go. It
goes back to that initial point. The mechanics, the guys who got their
hands in things. Like I said, we know Jesse Curry's name. He
publishes his book by the way through weird situation. You know about that,
the assassination file book that Jesse Curry published himself, Right, Mike, I
don't remember, Okay, quick, I remember he did a book. Yeah,
he was the head Okay, he was the head of security for Southland
Corporation, which owned seven eleven basically, so his little assassination book was published
by and distributed and ready seven elevens. So there's not that many of them
out there, but his little neat but it's a neat little book, and
it had pictures in it that nobody else had. It had information in it
and some direct, you know, interesting evidence in it that no other author,
no assassination research or anybody else had ever bothered to show anybody or knew
about weird stuff in that book at the time. Even the Dillard photograph of
the guy picking up the bullet off of the grass was in that book.
I mean it was in a you know, it was taken by a news
photographer, but hardly anybody ever pointed to it, and Jesse Curry just kind
of casually published it. You know, here's my police file, and I'm
pretty sure Oswald did it, but there's some weird stuff here I can't answer.
And yeah, but at the time he was, you know, had
a security job with, like I said, the seven to eleven company,
and they put out that little book. So when you see that little book,
it was only printed for that short time in the like around nineteen eighty
I think, you know. Anyhow, so back to it. What is
interesting here is that again you're revealing another guy who is clearly key in not
only the motorcade but the search afterwards and everything else. And how many people
have you ever really heard Mike talk about Lumpkin before? Well, I mean
the reason, I mean it's really Walt Brown is the only person I've ever
heard talk about him. Right, That's it, right, And that's because
Walt oddly will go into all sorts of obscure people because he recognizes that quite
frankly, and this is why he ends up doing these you know, crazy
large deep dives into things. That's why his you know, chronologies thirty thousand
pages literally is because he recognizes that it is all of this stuff that needs
to get saved and retained. Because as we continue to learn, like you
said, and like I was trying to explain earlier, we begin to understand
that it may not be the headline characters that we need to know all their
movements. You know, we can know everything about Jay Edgar Hoover. It
doesn't mean we know who really did the job on the ground for the FBI.
It doesn't mean that we know who carried things to and from the lab.
It doesn't mean that we know how the hell it is. And by
the way, the Secret Service has a lot of mysteries to it still,
like how in the hell James Fox ended up with a set of autopsy photos
and incomplete set minds you, but still a set of legitimate autopsy photos that
the rest of the world had not seen. How in the hell did that
guy get it? Does anybody know who James K. Fox was? Even
right? There are players all the way who may have had the information necessary
but might have been ignored up to this point, because again, they weren't
the headline names. They're not James Jesus Angleton, they're not Alan Dulles,
they're not j Edgar Hoover. You know what I'm saying. So I think
it is important to get to know the rest of the team, You know
what I mean. It's not just important to know who the quarterback is.
You got to know who the place kicker is. You gotta know who the
guy is that they bring in on special teams just to the right end position,
because that guy might have been the key to victory or defeat, depending
on how you want to look at this. It is a matter of really
knowing all of it in order to dig up some of the things that have
been missed. Obviously, the missing pieces so far amount to this. So
continue on though, about Lumpkin, I mean, what else what else do
you think you've revealed here with this with this document that people need to read
the document? Uh? I mean perfectly, we've hit the highlights of it.
Okay, fair enough, So I I overdid it. I'm sorry,
Mike, I always do that to you, don't But I mean, what
else? What else do we need to know about this? Is there anything
that you want us to know about it beyond what we've said here, beyond
what we've looked at And obviously I want you guys to read it at Wallstreet
Window dot com. Uh, you know the link will be there, But
you can read it at a shelly dot com. Uh, the article,
the document, download it for yourself, take a look at it, uh
and see how it matches up to other things. Because I'm curious, have
you gone further with this and looked into more of Lumpkins's behavior and uh and
and seeing what else you could learn about how deeply involved he was with things
on the ground there? Uh? Have you gone further with the research?
Mic? I really haven't, not, not in this case, not not
on this specific topic. Okay, Well, I'm curious do you think you're
going to at some point because I'm I mean, you're you're probably gonna touch
on this a little more, I think, right, I mean, I
know you're you're writing the second volume of the Vietnam book now, but I
mean at some point he might have need to go into this a little further,
right, Well, I mean I do want to learn more about the
Dallas police and yeah, but they did have assassination. But I'm not sure
if I'm really gonna be able to find much more out about about this motor
key thing and Lumpkin. This might be all there is to it, So
I don't know. Well, I'll tell you what I'm gonna I'm gonna mail
you something you still have. You still have a DVD wrong player right,
like a DVD on your computer? Sure, all right, I will mail
you a DVD that I think will be a useful research and perhaps you can,
uh. I mean, I'm gonna use mine too, but I'm gonna
make sure that you have a perfect copy of it, because I have a
Dallas Police Spiles DBD DVD ROM that I believe is searchable, or you can
plug it into something and like on your computer now and create a thing to
cross reference with anyway, either way, it's contained on the disc, or
it's something that you can use if you transfer it into a certain kind of
reader. Either way, I think it'll be a research tool, a good
database for you to go through Dallas police files and a few other things that
are connected to the Dallas Police. Have you ever read the book No More
Silence by the way, No. Yeah. I'm curious if you know,
because there's a guy named Larry Sneaed there who wrote that book, and he
interviewed hundreds of Dallas police people, and I'm wondering if any of the anecdotes
and accounts in that book might also provide some sort of information. I mean,
this is the way I'm thinking of it, sure, and this is
because that's primary. It's not I always like to refer to books, but
that to me is a primary source because he did, you know, what
William Law did within the eye of history, which is simply record these interviews
and in some cases sneed even recorded stuff where they contradicted each other. I
mean, you know, you got, like I made certain notes in my
book, there's like three four guys claiming to have all done the same thing,
you know, in certain reports. That's how I came to that whole
thing about how they and I've spoken about this. I've never written about it,
but some time I want to write about it. Is that you know,
people go, well, absolutely, this guy did this, because I
read the reports, You're being misled, because these Dallas police admitted to me
and to Larry Snead and I think a couple other people that sometimes these guys
just signed paperwork that they didn't necessarily fill out. So you could see a
report that's allegedly from a police officer that he might have just signed because he
trusted his partner, his buddy or the other cop whoever, to write it,
which you know, means that a lot of cases, you think,
oh, I've got the guy who did this, because he says he did
it in his report. You might want to cross reference that because you might
find two other guys. You know, Look, it doesn't take three hands
to pick up a cigarette pack, and there is an instance where a cigarette
pack is being picked up. There's an instance where a jacket is being literally
picked up, and three guys didn't pick it up off the ground. Okay,
it just didn't happen that way. So therefore, what do you have.
You have three guys signing a report that only one guy wrote, and
hopefully one of them actually did it, so you don't have absolute certainty with
their reports. Okay, but it's still a useful tool, and you might
be able to come up with some things about Lumpkin showing up in other people's
statements where well, Deputy Chief Lumpkin told me to do this or that.
You know, what do you think? Yeah, No, I mean it's
it's it could easily be that happens. Well, anyway, I'll suggest that
book to you. I mean, I could send you. I think I
have a copy of it over here. If I can find that, I'll
send it to you. But I'm gonna send you this for sure, just
to make sure that you have one for your own. And I got a
few packages I got to mail out sometime soon. Anyway, Holy crap,
I've taken you like fifteen minutes over time here, and I didn't even mean
to do that, Mike. So anything you want to conclude with my friend,
I'm more than happy. I'm sorry I talked over a lot of your
time here. But did you get out everything you wanted to get out regarding
this? Oh? Yeah, yeah, we're good. Now we got say
more for the next time we speak, absolutely, and that'll be about two
weeks from now, right, because next week I'll have Larry Hancock here on
Thursday. But then you're gonna come back the week after. And by the
way, there is sort of a you know, on vacation note on Wall
Street Window dot com and that'll be there until what at least the beginning of
the year, Mike, Yes, right, Okay, so you may not
see a lot of new material coming out from Wallstreet Window dot com, but
the website will still be there, and who knows, there might be some
interesting announcements regarding what the future. Oh, but Wall Street window is Uh,
I'm not giving anything away here, Mike, right, I mean,
I'm just that's what it says on the on the side there. I just
want to make sure I'm not doing anything, you know, because I might
have some ideas about what you're gonna do, but I'm not gonna talk about
it, and we'll leave it there because that's up to you to announce it
and break the news. Uh. But I look forward to it. And
do we have any idea when you might get that next volume of the Vietnam
book out, by the way. I mean it's not it ain't any time
soon. I know that part. But I was just wondering if you had
a target or a deadline in your mind or anything like that. I mean
probably next, probably the year after next probably, so like a twenty twenty
five release on. Yeah, that's that's most likely. Have you already picked
up some new because every time Mike writes a book, by the way,
there's always documentation in there that's either been ignored or missed by other people.
So I love that. It's like Mike has always picked up something new.
You're you're not gonna get just run of the middle of the same old crap
in one of Mike Swanson's books doesn't work that way, although you know it's
funny. I did see. Uh, there's another guy with the last name
Swanson who's written about the Kennedy assassination. And I don't know if you know
about that that guy. Do you know you know about him? Okay,
well there is an author named Kennedy Swanson. Let me let me play real
fast, but just real fast. I'm gonna get to this with you and
then I'm gonna let you go or you know, say your final piece however
you want. But assassination book. Yeah, and I'm just gonna write because
it's so funny. Oh yeah, I know it's a lone assassin thing.
Yeah, but a few a few times I've had people is a bunch of
trash. Yeah. But the sad thing is I've had people think that's you.
I know. So I want to make it real clear that this guy,
uh. And now I have it in front of me, so I
can make it very clear that James Swanson is not Mike Swanson. And yeah,
and indeed he writes some sort of like you know, low nut theory
kind of you know, the Warren Commission probably got it right, even though
they got a couple of things wrong. Book I think it is, yeah,
basically, and uh, when did he put this thing out? I
don't even know. I guess they re released it in twenty fourteen, or
maybe they did release it whatever. I'm not that there is no recommendation for
this book. I am not giving you a link to it. It's crap.
I tell you that now I have read through it, and it's just
it's crap. That is not Mike Swanson, Okay, just that simple.
Mike Swanson indeed is the author of the War State. Uh. He is
the author of Why the Vietnam War. Okay. He is the author of
a bunch of books actually that I usually don't even talk about on here.
But let's go to make a look at the list real fast. He wrote
about the history of Danville, Virginia. He wrote about strategic stock trading,
the new gold stock, stuff about money and the markets. And the two
books on well three books on history, one only focusing on Danville, Virginia
local historical thing, but also Why the Vietnam War is the latest one,
and the War State, which is a book I highly recommend to anyone who's
interested in the modern American history twentieth century, especially and specifically post World War
Two, although there are some interesting things in there that might go outside of
that. And that's the Red Book that you see on my sidebar with Ike
right, Eisenhower given his farewell address, which is relevant to the title of
the book, the concept of the book, etc. Et cetera. So
anyway, that's Mike Swanson. Don't get him confused with that other Swanson guy
who wrote about the jfk assassination. But I almost feel like, one day
you've got to at least do something on the Kennedy assassination as a book,
just to make sure you have yours out there and you know, people don't
mix it up, because I literally had a couple of people say to me
recently, didn't he write this thing? And I was like, no,
he hasn't written a book on the Kendiate. But he talks about it,
Yes he does, he's interested, yes he is, but he hasn't actually
written a book on it. So I'm just saying, Mike, one of
these days, I mean, hey, look, even if you want to
do a cooperative thing and we write an informational book together, just some sort
of reference book something you got to put your name on it. Because this
guy being a Swanson with the name with the with the book out there,
I bet you he benefited from from a little bit of you getting that book
out there, probably helping him with his sales. And it's a crap book.
It's garbage. It's got a nice picture on the on the dust jacket.
I think it's a dust jacket. I don't you know what. I
don't even care. I don't even remember if it was. I think it
was a paperback I got. But either way, the front cover is a
nice picture. It's them arriving in Dallas. But that's the only nice thing
or useful thing about the book. Okay, that's it anyway. Sorry,
I'm trashing this guy. Hope he's not your cousin or something like. No,
I don't like him, okay, fair enough, just mind have you
ever met him? No? But his book's are garbage. He's writing is
that just the he's writing loaded assassin books for every assassination. He's got one
of that booth. He's got one about King huh, I mean booth?
Uh? You know it's de leakin assassination he's got one about King, so
he's he's Bill O'Reilly just less interesting. Yeah, that's the same crap.
Okay, Well, don't go by that. But if you want to get
a copy of the War State or Why the Vietnam War by Michael Swanse,
just type my name in and uh and I'll be back and just make sure
you get Michael Swanson's books. You got this other guy, okay, And
there are in with the show notes. So with all that having been said,
Mike, I want to thank you for joining me, and I want
to thank you guys for joining me out there because after all, no matter
who you are, where you are, when you are, I want you
to remember one thing specifically, not only go be in the know and go
to Wallstreet Window dot com, read that JFK article on my site his or
the aa r c's website a ARC dot org. Yeah, go do that.
Buy the books The War State or Why the Vietnam War. Look out
for volume two coming up soon be in the No go to Wallstreet Window dot
com anytime except Mike's on vacation until sometime at the beginning of the year coming
up. So until then, remember this, I'm merely O'Kelly. All of
you are oh Chili dot com, Wall Street, set Window dot dot gold
Sewer, the stock market, Wall Street Window Dott. Perhaps you're invested deeply,
Perhaps you're not in deep enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting started Wall
Street Windows on condos dot Com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of the
War State, understood these trends professionally for many years, and now he gives
you the benefit of his knowledge. Wall Street Streetdow Dott Go there, now,
go there, now, go there now revelation through conversation dot Com Radio
network go ahead today as right, Well, what do you want to know?
Ddy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew ruby and very handswer weapons.
Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make
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