We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinski,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show
at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST.
Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and to the premium
version of our website as well. We're joined today by Sean Higgins sewn as
a research fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute specializing in labor and employment issues.
You can learn more about CEI over at CEI dot org. You can also
read a recent piece of writing that Sean Road that I found very helpful called
United Auto Workers Want a Bigger Slice of a Shrinking pie. UAW of course,
voted to strike last night. They're on strike now, Sean. Thank
you for joining us for having them. Can you tell us a little bit
about the dynamics of the strike. I think it's something like one hundred and
fifty thousand workers might be affected by it. My number might be off by
that twelve plants. Can you just like kind of give us a background of
what's basically going on here. Yeah, it's about one hundred and fifty thousand
workers at Yeah, about that many plants, and they're striking at gm Ford
Stilantis. Combined, these three account for about forty percent of US domestic manufacturing.
Foreign plants account for the rest. There's a fair number of foreign owned
plants in the US that make foreign brand things, so we have toyotas made
in the US, and then there's a lot of those factories throughout the South.
Those are typically not unionized. So while it's headlines may make you make
you think the entire auto industry has walked out, in fact, it's only
about two fifths of the entire domestic manufact acturing. And the interesting thing is,
on top of that, the union is only walking out of select plants.
Can you tell us more about that, because that is interesting. Why
is it only select plants? I guess that gets into also sort of the
dynamics of how they're using the strike, how they're leveraging their power. What
is the deal with just you know, the select plant strikes. Well,
the deal is they don't actually have that much leverage. I mean, they're
trying to make it. They're trying to make as much noise as they possibly
can and make it seem as though they're doing a big walkout women or not.
I mean historically, if you have a walkout, you have a walkouts
and all or nothing proposition. All the workers are out there, they're on
the picket line. You're trying and shut down the factories to the maximum sense
that you possibly can. This is why the worst solidarity is so important to
the union movement and why they make such a big deal about it. They
almost never do this type of piece mail strategy because that's not how strikes work.
That doesn't bring management to heal. The reason why they're doing it this
way is because they just I assume the union leadership doesn't think it can sustain
a full strike for for a long period of time, and they don't want
to, you know, look like they failed, So they're doing it this
way. They're trying to sell it as if it were a bold new strategy
that will maximize the disruption of the The companies don't buy that. That's just
that's just pr hype. The reality is, if you strike, you strike,
You put all your people out there, and you try and force the
company to shut down. You try and maximize the amount of pain that they
suffer. You don't go easy on them. Like this, like like what
they're doing now, and they're asking for it, and you can fill in
some of the details. They're asking for a pretty hefty race, I think,
like raise and a return to the old school pension system. And they're
clearly I think you know, on the momentum of what the teamsters want with
ups looking for something really big, looking for looking for a pretty big gain.
Here, what exactly are they asking for they're asking Yeah, they're asking
for about thirty five to forty percent increase. There's we can we can very
easily fall down the rabbit hole discussing the minutia of this type of stuff.
But that's that's about where it's going. The management is offering between fifteen to
twenty percent increases, and then there's also some other details. For example,
they're trying the union is demanding more stability in terms of workers being shifted from
one factory to the next, because as we're making this transition to electric electric
vehicles that there has to be some changes related to that. For example,
most of the batteries for the electric vehicles will be manufactured at factories elsewhere than
where the chases of the cars is made. So and they're trying to brend
that because a lot of those factories are in the South and they're not unionized,
and even if they're in a Southern state, they may be subject therefore
the right to work laws, which which could potentially hurt the unions obviously trying
to prevent that as well. So that would be like Tesla, Okay,
and the other. I'm actually really intrigued by the situation with the electric vehicles
because UAW United Auto Workers is obviously a very interesting union. The relationship with
the Democratic parties as as cozy as anyone would expect from you the last several
decades of union history, and a lot of this is being pushed on workers
and on the plants by Biden administration policies. And I wrong about that is
the sort of the subsidies that have been handed out is one of the things
that's moving these the Big Three along towards electric vehicle manufacturing. Electric cars are
cheaper to make, require less labor, and so you have these union workers
who may you know, personally support Trump or whatever, but their union supports
Biden in a squeeze because of Biden administration policies. Yeah, I mean,
it's it gets very it gets very complicated, very easily, because this stuff
seems illogical or counterintuitive. I mean, like, yeah, why would the
union supports as they publicly are supporting this transition to electric vehicles when that's going
to mean fewer union jobs? And there's a lot of reasons for that,
but the bottom line reason for it is that the the UAW just isn't as
strong as it used debate and again, it only represents about forty percent of
It only represents about forty percent of those workers, and they're not really in
a position to say no to this. There's also the fact that the union
movement is tied to a lot of the other sort of liberal progressive movements who
are all very much in favor of the environmentalist message, so they get sort
of dragged along by that as well. Then there's the concern that over in
the longer term, these ev vehicles will actually replace most traditional gas power of
vehicles, So they don't get in early, they may they may hurt themselves
in the longer run by not by not getting getting in part of part of
that. So a big part of this is trying to sort of get the
administration to cushing the blow to the unions in terms of what has happened,
what's happening. So therefore we see all the sort of subsidies that Biden administration
as offered to the vehicles I mean traditionally, I mean company companies make these
make these type of changes when they see the long term financial advantages of this.
And for all the benefits of electronic vehicles, absent a lot of this
sort of benefits from the federal government, the advantages aren't there. They wouldn't
automatically or normally make this transition. Would still be a sort of boutique project
for for the wealthy or the sort of environmentally minded. It wouldn't be something
that the average Joe and Jane six pack would would want to drive. But
they don't. But they but they feel as other being pushed alone to that.
And yeah, this and this is one of the things that Sean Fayne,
the leader of the UAW, is very mindful of, is that this
probably are a lot of the workers are saying, this is not actually good
deal for us. Why are you going along with this? And he has
to sort of maintain a control over the union and deal with us as best
you can. And so he's juggling a bunch of different balls at the same
time and trying to sort of reconcile all these conflicting problems they are having.
Yeah, and he's been, you know, predictably on CNN with Chick Tapper
and other places. He's he's definitely leaning into a high profile role in all
of this, and he's how do the UAW after two of his predecessors were
imprisoned in corruption scandals? Can you talk a little bit about Fine as a
leader of the UAW in the shadow of you know, pretty typical like union
corruption scandals that enveloped the UAW that he's basically as a whole he's had to
dig out of. What does that look like internally for them? Yeah,
I mean I've been covering I've been sort of looking at the automole fuel industry
going back to the two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine the bankrupt
in your bankruptcy they had and one of the striking things about that was was
you looked at the congressional hearings at the time of the u W came out
and was very much went to bat for the manufacturers in terms of getting the
bailout. It's a very cozy relationship they've had over the last several decades between
the Big three quote unquote Detroit Manufacturers and the union. And that corruption,
as you say, you know, fed into the problem of his veins on
two predecessors who were colluding with some of the companies to rip off group off
the members for themselves. And one of the results of those corruption investigations,
which were by a Justice department, was a reform of the way the union
alexus members and that was how Faint Fain got involved. Previously, they had
this system where it was almost kind of closed off to the rank and file
members as to who actually the leadership was. It was really undemocratic and unfair,
and Fain was sort of the protest candid who got in as a result
of these changes. But that creates some problems on pressure for him. For
one thing, he doesn't have the full support of the rank and file behind
him to start with you narrowly one. And he also has to show that
he's not the corrupt, old old school guide that they've had previously, and
so that's part of the reason why he's making the sort of confrontational stance with
the unions. With the management. I should say he's broken some of the
traditions they have where they have handshake, starts off and you know, they
all we're all in the same boat type type things. He's no, he's
trying to be more sort of punk rock about it, for lack of a
better phrase I can think of. And he has to show that he's not
he's not sort of corrupt, and he's not in their pocket the way they
used to. And that's part of the reason why I think he's leading this
sort of limited walkout is he's trying to send the message I'm not part of
this old school that we've had. I'm different and I'm more I'm confronting them
more often, while at the same time not actually trying to have a you
know, the sort of screaming confrontation you have with a full complete walkout,
because he knows that that's actually good backfire on badly if if you lost,
if you lost the fight with management, he doesn't want to push it too
hard. So this sort of limited walkout they have where they're just sort of
doing a piecemeal at different plants, is his way of making a look as
though he's doing a lot of stuff to shake up the status quo without actually
shaking it up that much. There's a just I'm sort of baffled with how
the Biden administration. You aws, fairly powerful lobby in Washington, probably not
as powerful. You would know this better than I do show, Probably not
nearly as powerful as it used to be. But all of these these subsidies
that the Biden administration has passed, all these policies, regulations the Biden administration
has passed, why is it that the union lobby wasn't strong enough to resist
it? Were they even trying to resist it? It's that new kind of
mingling of ESG versus blue collar priorities and some of these old democratic leftist institutions
that on the one hand want to support you sort of blue collar labor,
but then on the other hand, support priorities that are in conflict with a
lot of blue collar people's personal ideologies and maybe even the fortunes when you know
things like this are on the line. How do we how do we how
should we understand? How do we explain the reality that the Biden administration did
some things that actually cut against what they see and what Joe Biden certainly would
say he sees as a core constituency Boe Biden is big on sort of There's
there's this image of of unions as being the sort of blue collar institution that
Biden himself is very much played up. The reality of it is, well,
that was true in the mid twentieth century. It's no longer true today.
You know, the manufacturing sector, the unionization of that has declined.
As they said, the automakers only represent forty percent of domestic manufacturing. That
would have been unthinkable back in the twentieth century. The union movement today is
largely a public sector you know, the government unions, and a lot of
this largely the sort of more of the service industry, and these manufacturing sector
unions just don't have the clout within the union movement that they used to and
for a lot of these other ones, I mean there again, they're also
in. The other issue is that they're also much more closely tied with the
union with other liberal movements, so they have The essence is that these sort
of the old sector manufacturing unions tend to get pulled along and swept along with
these sort of other other changes, and they don't have the strength institutionally to
withstand the others, so they have to sort of go along and get along.
You've seen this, for example with the United mind Workers, which is
basically almost negotiating itself out of existence, and the you know, the Detroit
manufacturers are having the same problem. The difference is that there's other plants that
they could organize, and they've tried to do that. They made major efforts
to try and get plants in the South on their side. They just haven't
had a whole lot of success. One of the problems that the manufacturing sector
of the units had is that they win decades without having to seriously attend to
organize new and emerging in new and emerging companies because they were just so dominant
on the ones that were the companies that are already dominant, and they basically
got bad at rank and follow organizing and they still are and this has really
come around hurt them in the recent decades as the companies that they maintained that
they that they still represent and where the basis of their strength have themselves declined,
and as they've declined, unions have declined with them. So it's a
long winded way of saying the reason why this pressure is on these unions when
you think it wouldn't be is because they represent a much smaller part of the
union movement than they did previously. It's no longer a union movement, is
no longer a sort of blue collar manufacturing haart hat wearing your uncle and your
your grandfather type of business. It's very much a sort of young woke phenomenon
that you know you see in contemporary world. And these just sort of these
are just of the older scheme. The nerkings dragged along with this new part
of movement. Hey y'all, this is Sarah Carter, investigative columnist and host
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Superbeats dot Com promo code Sarah. And you know, that's a really interesting
transition into the question of like the looming rider skilled strike, which has been
going on for a really long time. Talk about a more white collar,
more young, more woke union. They also are they have this there's a
parallel I guess demand or at least ambition that you kind of have. They
compare it to gig work that you know, the the new like way that
riders make a living is sort of hopping from gig to gig. In the
streaming universe, where there are hundreds of shows that are being broadcast at year.
Some make it, some whether on the vine, and so they're just
like popping into different rooms as opposed to working with a team over a course
of years and having uh, you know, benefits package with a company.
They feel like they're just doing the uber driving version of writing. And on
the other hand, you have the UAW workers looking for a return to the
whole depension system, something that makes them feel a little bit more stable,
a bit more comfortable in their job. How do declines in those old kind
of systems. Maybe some that change because of technology, maybe some that change
because of what you just said. The unions are less powerful than they used
to be and haven't been organizing to their workers and benefit in recent years.
Has that eaten away at the way some of these workers actually are compensated.
What is their kind of case. Well, in the case of the like
these sort of manufacturing sector, these are good jobs if you can get them.
The problem is that the jobs, the jobs themselves are shrinking. I
mean there's just more and more places where they're they're automating, whether they're shifting
away, and the jobs are vanishing. And so is a lot of When
they had the two thousand and eight two thousand and nine issue one of the
things that they did was they protected the existing members, but created a new
system that kind of screwed the younger incoming members of the union, so they
weren't getting as good at pay and benefits as the older established ones because they
hadn't get joined up at the time, so they were easy to sort of
make the one's tap to take this short end of the stake basically. And
the part of this fight now is actually an attempt to sort of walk back
some of those changes too, because the unions realize that that's made these jobs
even less attractive to people in terms of the question of things like the Writers
Guild and all these sort of other newer things. You know, the union
union movement is a broad and vast thing, and there's a lot of it
covers all sorts of the different things. The California Writers and Actors Guild strike
is very interesting because this was once a very lucrative field that could sustain a
lot of things, and it has markedly changed over the last decade. Largely
there's a consequence of technology. I mean, streaming just didn't exist. Binge
watching your favorite show didn't exist a decade ago. Even though theoretic if you
think about it, like when they started to making the home video revolution happened
in the eighties, It could have happened then. It's just literally nobody realized
that people would be willing to sort of watch and consume programming in this way,
and there was only sort of more recently that they realized that. But
the change of that means that a typical television season in the eighties or nineties
was like twenty six episodes, and if you were like a dramatic series that
was like an hour long episode, that was the functional colon of doing something
like, you know, twelve movies a year, feature length films. Nowadays,
the average streaming season has just thirteen episodes, and they're usually about half
an hour or forty five minutes. There's a drastic just cut down in the
sheer amount of the sheer amount of product that's being put out, and as
a consequence, they're just working a lot less than the you Too. And
the problem that these sort of newer unions have is they only just sort of
recently realize this change and they're trying to demand changes to the studio system that
doing that, for example, like literally requiring them to hire more writers for
shows even if they don't have work for them. And that's going to be
really interesting to see how this plays out, because there really isn't an obvious
solution to how it's being done. I have a family member who is a
Screen Actors Guild member, and I was talking to him recently, and he's
lucky because he's seventy one then semi retired, so it just doesn't it doesn't
have mattered him as much. But he was like quite candid with me.
It's like, I don't know how we square the circle or solve the problem.
We're just going to have to actually, you know, they're probably just
going to have to accept less. And that's the reality of the situation.
And again, a sort of long witted to answer to your question, but
the answer is that I think this the union movement covers all sorts of different
sectors of the economy, all of which have different issues and problems of their
own, and there isn't any sort of obvious or simple solution that cuts across
all of them. In a sense, are they, especially with the UAW
you talk about the slice of a shrinking pie, are they in some ways
accelerating their own demise by the strike is this is this maybe in the long
term counterproductive? Do you think it is? And I think that that's why
they're doing in such a limited fashion. They don't actually want to have a
serious strike that shuts down all the manufacturers that wants because that just means that
they'll see more. The'll end up those factories will have to see more to
the to the foreign US may US built competition. In other words, for
and GM will lose out more to Toyota, Volkswagen if they do that.
And that's very much I think on Fain's mind and the others in the UAE
as they do this is we can't actually hurt our management too much because they
might not be able to come back. I mean that was in the old
days they could always sort of rely on the US manufacturers to bounce back over
time. They can't count on that anymore. It's on them to try and
organize these new these new factories. But they haven't been able to do that
either. And on top of that, most of the factors are located and
right to work states, So if they didn't organize them, they'd still be
They still have the problem that the individual workers would be able to opt out
if they wanted to, so they still wouldn't be as strong. So yeah,
they're they It's it's an existential problem that the union has where all these
sort of things that they've relied on for so long are fading away and they
don't really have a strong or easy solutions to get rounded. The problem of
real wagers is a very serious one for a lot of people around the country,
and it just it's hard not to, you know, I think that
the Adam ruins everyone ever everything. Guy Adam Conover has been on CNN talking
about, like David zass Labs compensation packages, and when workers or Seawan Faine
goes and tells Jake Tapper about the you know, skyrocketing compensation of people at
the Big Three, of executives at the Big Three, it is hard not
to look at that and sometimes say that is they do have a little bit
more money they could be tossing to the workers. That's sort of the purpose
of collective bargaining in the kind of ecosystem of how all of this works.
But at the same time they are I mean, the uaw's concessions were,
as you mentioned earlier, some like twelve fifteen percent raised they will get something
out of this right at the end of the day. Oh yeah, I
mean, as I said, the managers are offering them up to twenty percent
increases right now and some of the changes. I mean, they're willing to
deal. They're willing to offer more, and I think I don't know exactly
how well that would part inflation we're seeing. I'm not that I'm not that
good of an economist, but certainly it will, it will go a long
way towards doing that. So there, I mean, management, management is
trying to to to placate them, and they know that the workers need more,
but they are any difficult, difficult position themselves. They're trying to they're
trying to transition, initition to be having heavy competition. They're trying to transition
to creating entirely new vehicles for which there isn't actually a clear benefit that this
will this will work financially in the long run. And so they're like,
well, you know, when you expect from us, you know we can't.
We can't. For all the claims that they're fat, they're fat and
happy, and certainly, I mean, the companies shoot themselves in the foot
with these sort of executive compensation packages because it always relies such an easy and
read ready talking point for you decides to use. And I don't actually support
these type of things. I think basically, if you were a shareholders,
you should you should be able to shareholders should themselves, uh, you know,
hold the executive speak to the fire this much and not pay them as
well because they a lot of times they don't actually earn it. That said,
it's even if they if they were to switch that off tomorrow, it
still wouldn't change the fundamental economic realities that these they are basic. It wouldn't
change how much you know, the unions were I mean, would it would
address, like, you know, the salaries of a couple of of some
some of the workers. But not by any stretch of the imagination. If
you were cut the executive compensation significantly, would you be able to provide enough
money to meet the unions demands? And that's the issue m and the question
of longevity for the UAW, especially as the Writer's Guild strike you know,
goes into your period of months with no end in sight. How long I've
I've actually heard some analysts say maybe the Big three are going to be happy
to have some time to get rid of their surplus stock that's built up in
recent years with the pandemic economy. How long do you do you think that
this particular strike can last. We're in the first like twelve hours of it
as we talk right now, but how much longer could this go? Get
to your point, which is a good one, which is the manufacturers might
actually welcome a break because it would mean that the dealerships will be able to
clear their lots of a lot of the cars. Another interesting factor about this
is the dealerships, contrary with some think, aren't actually owned by the manufacturers.
They're separate companies that just have a deal to sell the cars. So
for the dealerships, a break is actually a good thing because it means they
can clear clear their lots, and they make most of their money from servicing
cars, not selling them anyway. So the unions are unions at least the
auto unions aren't in a particularly strong position on this. My suspicion is,
and I mean, I hate to make predictions because you usually usually get them
wrong, but put a gun into my head and I'll say this will probably
go on for a couple of weeks. Management will make some sort of offer
that the union will take us to some sort of face saving thing and claim
that they got a better deal than they would have otherwise, and it'll be
marginally better than what the management is offering right now, and the unions will
take that and go home. And more broadly, do you, like,
do you have an estimate of how this might a rough estment of how this
might affect the economy in general? I know that's hard to say, but
if it goes on for a couple of weeks, we're kind of ripple effect.
Could people expect it'll be marginal? The UPS thing was a much bigger
deal because that was there was the threat of an imminent break in the supply
chain, which would mean that grocery store shelves would be unstopped, manufacturers would
be short on we're all materials and that type of stuff, and those things
would immediately shut down at breaking. Car manufacturing, as we just discussed,
isn't isn't going to have an immediate effect on the economy because most people don't
need new cars immediately. In fact, you can go several weeks or months
before you start seeing that as an impact on the broader economy. A lot
of people further down in the sort of food chain on this aren't impacted by
it either. As I said, you know, dealerships, they can clear
their lots. They make most of the money from selling the cars. People
will simply just drive used cars around for a little while longer. That's not
going to have a huge impact on the economy, not immediately, not the
way suddenly the grocery store shelf being being empty would have had. And that
was why the teamsters were in a much better position in that strike than the
UAW is in this strike. They had a serious boor else that they could
hammer down on both the main management and both and on the national economy.
It's like, we can, we can cause some serious damage if you guys
don't give it in the door demands, And that worked out for them.
UAW just doesn't have that boor else quality to agree the Watchdoldom Wall Street podcast
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or wherever you get your podcast. And then just you know, as we're
wrapping here, I want to ask about the thirty thousand foot level. As
somebody who's covered this for years, it seems to me a lot of right
to work laws were passed in the aftermath actually of the Great Recessions or the
Tea Party years that a lot of those right to work laws went in place.
I could be wrong on that, correct me if I have, but
there was there was something about public opinion on unions that was very different than
than it is now. Where you have this the public up unions and the
labor movement increasing, the favorability increasing to some people will call it record levels,
but at least in recent history, people are more favorable to unions than
we're in the past. There's a tight labor market. We have seen a
lot of strikes. Looks like we might get Airline of flight attendant strikes in
the near future. There's just a lot of stuff going on in the space.
Is this a renaissance for the labor movement or is it something that maybe
looks like a renaissance but is again across the board a shrinking pie it is,
it's maybe a death rattle if anything. Well, in terms of the
right to work laws, those are actually tend to be very popular with the
rank and file members. It's leadership to dates. I mean right to work
laws just literally more rights for the workers and in the right for them to
say no, to sustay note to the leadership of their own unions, and
to walk away from that. The attempts to sort of get rid of these
things are basically to give the union leadership more opportunity, more power to say
the workers, hey, shut up and get in line the corrupt union leadership
in the case of the UAW in Michigan. When I think right the work
was classed one twenty thirteen, twenty twelve, yeah, I mean a lot
of has happened in the wake also some of these corruption things. But as
one line union organizer told me, as soon as you start actually talking about
what a right to work law is too specifically is to an actual union member,
they start to think it's a good idea. So I don't I don't
see the success of the right to work laws as necessarily being contradicted by also
a general's increase in the support of unions as an idea. We do have
an incredibly tight labor market, we do have changes in the way a lot
of businesses are being operated that that's that's happening to people, and people are
seeing that the unions do have some power to demand that a better paying,
better conditions, So that's so that has increased their opinion. The other thing
is a lot of people don't actually belong to union members themselves in themselves,
so what they hear is, you know, the theoretical advantages of being in
the union, and that sounds like a good idea, but they don't have
the actual experience. I mean, people in previous decades, they had a
sibling or a parent or an uncle or an aunt or somebody like that who
was in the union and would tell them stories about what was actually like.
They'll form their opinions based on that. Right now, a lot of people
are just hearing the sort of positive pr from unions and liberal breaking groups that
are favorable to unions, a spredence idea, and since they don't have any
experience with them, experience with themselves, Like all of this sounds like a
really good idea, and you know it's not necessarily a bad idea. I
mean, certain places could actually benefit from from giving workers more organization and more
power to demand more from At the same time, I think it should be
coupled with more freedom for the workers to meet this decision on their own.
Problem we have with a lot of the stuff is just trying to force you
workers into this without them sort of having a full understanding of what the rights
and the benefits and the responsibilities of you. You don't have to be But
that's another discussion. Maybe a poetic justice if the right to work laws in
Michigan make Sean Fayne hold a speak to the fire and make him be a
better leader than than anyone would have been the past for the workers. I
believe they actually rolled it back in the time, so I double check that,
but it was, yeah, it was one of the one of the
states that had at I believe it was. Michigan doesn't have it anymore.
They were able to do that that way. So yeah, so it's you
know, the pendulum swings back and forth and as it always will and always
will continue. Sean Higgins is a research fellow ever at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.
You can read his recent article on this over at CEI dot orging Fallow
all of his work and all of the work that CEI does over at CEI
dot org. Sean, thank you so much for joining us. All Right,
you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily
Jasinski, culture editor here at the Federalists. Will be back soon with more.
Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray. Heard
the fame voice the reason, and then it faded away.