1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,679 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:49,759 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,679 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Cynthia Hill, director of 11 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,679 Burden of Proof, and Steven Pandos, brother of Jennifer Pandos, here to 12 00:00:59,719 --> 00:01:04,079 talk about the HBO Max series Burden of Proof. Cynthia and Stephen, thank 13 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,599 you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us. Yeah, 14 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:14,239 thank you. So let's go ahead and get some introductory material here out of 15 00:01:14,239 --> 00:01:18,640 the way. Before we talk about your serious Burden of Proof? Can you 16 00:01:18,719 --> 00:01:21,799 start by telling us a little bit about yourself? Cynthia will start with you, 17 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,000 and then Steven, I'll have you jumped in. I'm a filmmaker based 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:33,000 in Durham, North Carolina. I've been making documentaries for now twenty five years 19 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:37,599 and this last project, Burden of Proof. We've been working on this one 20 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:45,879 since twenty fifteen, or a third of your career. Exactly where do I 21 00:01:45,879 --> 00:01:49,799 go from here? As panic? Oh, that's where we come in. 22 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,159 Stephen, how about you? I'm Stephen Pandos. I live in Charlotte, 23 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,079 North Carolina and work in a commercial real estate investment. How did the two 24 00:01:59,159 --> 00:02:04,319 of you end up connect team to build this relationship that resulted in this wonderful 25 00:02:04,319 --> 00:02:08,280 product, Burden of Proof? He sent me a LinkedIn message that said call 26 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:17,439 me. Did he say anything else? Was there a pitch contained or Steve? 27 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,520 No, no, no, not my recollection is the only thing it 28 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:29,800 said was call me. And so I had just recently brought on board Christine 29 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:35,159 delp who's the producer on this project, and she had just graduated from college 30 00:02:35,199 --> 00:02:40,439 and her job for that first the first couple of weeks was to respond to 31 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:46,879 emails and clean out my voice messages and LinkedIn messages or whatever. And so 32 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:52,080 she came across this one and she's Christie's the one that actually called Stephen that 33 00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:57,400 day. Stephen, did you indicate that you were the brother of a missing 34 00:02:57,479 --> 00:03:00,560 person and wanted to talk to her about it? Documentary? Or what did 35 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:06,439 you say? I don't recall really the specific message. It might just have 36 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:13,319 been as blunt as please call me or something I think it was. And 37 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,800 that's how it started. So it was with I don't know how long the 38 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,479 first conversation with Christine was, but it was a while, and she hung 39 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,960 on and heard the story even though Cynthia was telling her to hang up on 40 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:29,000 me. Yeah she was. This is a time when we were working out 41 00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:31,240 of my kitchen. We were in between offices, I like to say, 42 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:38,080 and I could see her getting visibly emotional as she's talking with Steven, and 43 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,879 I didn't know what was going on. I could be some crazy person who 44 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:45,599 knows, And so I was motioning for her to hang up on him, 45 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,120 and she's showing me away. You know, it's good, it's good. 46 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:53,400 And so once she hangs up, she tells me the story that Stephen just 47 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:59,879 told her, and she proceeds to google all of the information, and everything 48 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,680 Stephen had invayed was there, as much as we could find online. We 49 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:09,280 knew he wasn't making up a story, and so we spent the next couple 50 00:04:09,319 --> 00:04:15,120 of hours just talking about the implications of what this kind of tragedy has on 51 00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:18,959 someone like Stephen and his family. Stephen at the point you reached out to 52 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:28,399 Cynthia and Christine. Had you seen Cynthia's twenty fourteen documentary Private Violence? How 53 00:04:28,399 --> 00:04:31,120 did she move? Yeah? No, not at the time. I got 54 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:38,279 referred to Cynthia by a firm in New York, Tendescent Films, And that 55 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,360 was a result of me just calling just picking up the phone and calling people 56 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,800 who were in the documentary fiwn business. They were an executive producer on Private 57 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,439 Violence, by the way, Yeah, just by coincidence, and since what 58 00:04:50,519 --> 00:04:56,480 I was talking about was sort of along the same lines as Private Violence in 59 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,639 terms of what I was thinking about at the time about and it's the nuances 60 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,680 and complications from it, and so they suggested I reach out to Cynthia. 61 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,519 So I did. Cynthia, once you heard Stephen's story, did you anticipate 62 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,399 that this is going to be a multi year event. How did you see 63 00:05:14,399 --> 00:05:19,000 this partnership unspooling? Of course not. I keep promising myself after I conclude 64 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:24,279 a project that the next one will not take as long as this last one. 65 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,759 I keep out doing myself. I've decided to never make that promise again. 66 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,959 I think that when you tackle anything like this, you have to be 67 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:38,079 willing to go wherever this story takes you. And I've learned that over the 68 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:42,800 years and my career. That's what really makes a good story and a good 69 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,600 film is if you have the patience to let it play out. And so 70 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:49,079 obviously we did not know that this one would take this long. And if 71 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:54,279 you had told both of us that when we first did that first shoot that 72 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:57,600 we will be filming for seven and a half years, I imagine both of 73 00:05:57,639 --> 00:06:00,959 us would have said no. Stephen N myself would have been like, no 74 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,839 way, We're never going to do this. But that's it's just the road 75 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:11,360 that we took, the path we took, and it led us to where 76 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,560 we are. Now, what did that shoot actually look like? Like? 77 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,399 How often per week, per month, per year would you see each other 78 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,959 and you would show up at Stephen's house with cameras and go, okay, 79 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:24,680 it's time to go to work. I'm really curious about what it looks like 80 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:30,480 to shoot with someone for seven years. The first time we shoot, it's 81 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,639 the first time I meet Stephen, so I had not actually spoken to him. 82 00:06:33,879 --> 00:06:39,399 I just was getting the information from Christine and from the initial conversation she 83 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,560 had with him. We decided that it was worth pursuing and at least seeing 84 00:06:44,639 --> 00:06:46,920 where a couple of shoots would get it. So at least one shoot with 85 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Stephen, and so Steven drives to Durham. At this point, I think 86 00:06:51,079 --> 00:06:58,120 that he's willing to do whatever it takes to try to get interest in his 87 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:02,560 sister's case and feel like he'd hit a brick wall. So he rolls up 88 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,680 in front of my house and we just film. We filmed pretty much as 89 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:12,680 he's walking in the door, and we've been filming with him like that ever 90 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,120 since. So those scenes are in the first episode, right, Yep. 91 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,120 It's the first thing with Stephen is that first meeting, that first encounter with 92 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:26,519 us, Because for me, it's really important that I capture those first conversations 93 00:07:26,759 --> 00:07:30,800 because a lot of times those are the most revealing conversations, you get the 94 00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:35,639 most raw emotion because it's the first time that they're telling me that story. 95 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:41,360 Is the first time Steven's telling me what happened, and so I just wanted 96 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,560 to be sure that we captured that. Tell us a little bit about Burden 97 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,319 of Proof. Then someone hasn't seen the documentary series yet, what is it, 98 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,319 Stephen? You want to tackle that one? Are you? No? 99 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,360 I think that's up to you. I'm a little too close. I'm in 100 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:05,079 the fishbowl. I guess I can give you what we call our elevator pitch, 101 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:11,639 which is this is Burden of Proof is the story of Jennifer Pandos, 102 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,920 a fifteen year old girl who went missing in Williamsburg, Virginia in nineteen eighty 103 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:22,680 seven. We follow her brother as he seeks justice for his sister. So 104 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:28,000 that, in a nutshell, is what this story is about. As soon 105 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,200 as we started receiving requests from our listeners, Hey have you guys watched Burden 106 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,759 of Proof? Are you covering Burden of Proof? And I looked at the 107 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:41,639 information about this, The first thing that I really thought was brother seeking justice 108 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,399 for murdered sister. That sounds a lot like my partner in crime. This 109 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,720 is so interesting storyline there. It's a very familiar storyline, and so we 110 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:56,720 were hooked from minute one. Stephen, your story is it's so similar to 111 00:08:56,759 --> 00:09:00,200 Bill's that I was sitting there watching the documentary and going, this sounds so 112 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,759 familiar, Like you guys have gone through a lot of the same struggles in 113 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,559 terms of lunf s min issues, And I just want to take a minute, 114 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,000 just on a personal level and say how Sarah I am that you've had 115 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,639 to go through that, and I really feel for you in every way that 116 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,159 I can, So I just wanted to throw that out there. Oh, 117 00:09:16,279 --> 00:09:20,320 thank you, it's John. One of the things that was very striking for 118 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:28,240 us was there's also a contrast and I'm not criticizing here, but I don't 119 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,320 think there's much way around this. We were floored by how little Kristin and 120 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:39,600 I knew about the Jennifer Pandos disappearance. Kristin lives in Williamsburg. She's a 121 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:43,840 teacher in Williamsburg. She actually graduated from the same high school, Lafayette High 122 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,919 School, that Jennifer was attending. And Jennifer's disappearance happens just a couple of 123 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:54,720 months after the October nineteen eighty six murder of my sister Kathy Thomas and Rebecca 124 00:09:54,759 --> 00:10:00,600 Dowski. And one of the things that's come up with us in the discussion 125 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,039 with other people outside the four of us here is that one made the observation 126 00:10:05,159 --> 00:10:09,240 that they felt like the Colonial Parkway murders, which weren't called that back then 127 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:15,440 because they hadn't even all happened yet, but that the high profile murder of 128 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,080 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, followed by these murders of these other young people 129 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:26,840 sucked the oxygen out of the room in Williamsburg from a kind of a media 130 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,879 perspective which we'd never thought about. Kristin and I we were like shocked by 131 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:37,279 that. One of our strongest takeaways from watching Burden of Proof is why didn't 132 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:45,840 the Pando's case receive more attention back in nineteen eighty seven when Jennifer first disappeared. 133 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,639 Stephen, do you have a sense of why that might have happened? 134 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,080 No, when Jennifer disappeared, I was in college in North Carolina and never 135 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,320 really moved back to Williamsburg other than for maybe a few months after that, 136 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,559 and dealing with law enforcement was always something that my parents did. I was 137 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,519 whatever, eighteen at the time. That just wasn't it wasn't my job. 138 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:11,879 That was my parents thing to do. So I don't know, I don't 139 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:13,960 have a good answer for that, Cynthia. Do you have any sense of 140 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:22,320 why this case was so low key for so long that we had that exact 141 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:28,320 same question whenever we first started, because when you would google Jennifer Pandos, 142 00:11:28,519 --> 00:11:31,639 there were only just a few mentions, and you could if you did some 143 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:37,200 real hard digging, you could find those earlier articles or mentions about her being 144 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,720 missing in the local paper, but that was it for us. It was 145 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,559 very disturbing, especially with what was going on with the Parkway murders and Bill, 146 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,600 I just want to say, your and Stephen's stories, the way that 147 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:58,639 they parallel are so uncanny. Yeah, yeah, And so I didn't put 148 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:03,279 that together either until we got this request from y'all for this podcast. But 149 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,799 it was something that we would talk about quite often with our team here, 150 00:12:07,879 --> 00:12:15,360 our internal team as to how did this get such little attention and why with 151 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,279 a fifteen year old girl missing, was there not more done. I think 152 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:26,440 that it was a different time and with kids going missing Unfortunately they're like, 153 00:12:26,519 --> 00:12:31,799 Okay, she ran away, and the time before cell phones and new constant 154 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:37,919 contact with people, And so I think that for the cops, at least 155 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:43,559 from the questioning that I have done within the police department and the former investigators, 156 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,639 it was like they just assumed that it was a runaway and they treated 157 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:52,320 as as such. But even if that's the case, a runaway team is 158 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,519 at so much d is in so much danger of something worse happening, even 159 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,480 if she did run away, that this wasn't given the kind of attention that 160 00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:07,759 it should have been given is so sad. Agreed that the times were very 161 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:11,600 different, but it's actually shocking now, especially to look back in retrospect. 162 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,840 And agreed, this is a pre cell phone, pre social media environment. 163 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,159 When we speak about the Colonial Parkway murders, I always feel like I'm talking 164 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,879 about the Civil War, because we have to remind we speak to college audiences, 165 00:13:24,879 --> 00:13:28,279 for example, that they will ask why didn't somebody call on their cell 166 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:35,159 phone? And how come they didn't get surveillance video. People forget that surveillance 167 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,279 video is a relatively new thing. Except for maybe your local seven to eleven. 168 00:13:39,759 --> 00:13:46,519 You didn't see cameras outside of homes and retail establishments. For the most 169 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,279 part, there's all kinds of changes. And then, of course, I 170 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:52,960 think you were touching on this a little bit indirectly, which is the idea 171 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,559 of a runaway fifteen year old girl or any young person could be in danger. 172 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:01,120 And we talk about sex traffic now, which I don't remember people talking 173 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:07,000 about thirty years ago. No, but it's actually shocking to look back and 174 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:15,200 see just how little was done with Jennifer's disappearance in nineteen eighty seven. Yeah, 175 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,679 And I think for us that was always like a big mystery, and 176 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,440 that original case file from nineteen eighty seven was missing. We didn't have a 177 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:28,120 clear picture as of what did actually happen in nineteen eighty seven. Did they 178 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,879 get the telephone records or did they go to gate and acquire the ins and 179 00:14:33,919 --> 00:14:39,080 outs of people coming in out of that gated community, Like, we didn't 180 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,039 have any idea if any of that had transpired. Was anybody from law enforcement 181 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,240 able to answer those questions? The original investigators didn't move to the moon. 182 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:52,679 Weren't some of those people available to answer those questions? Yeah, And that 183 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,840 is a part of the second case file that was created into two thousands where 184 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,919 Wendy and Jeff the lines. They were the investigators in the two thousands, 185 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:09,559 and they called the original investigators in nineteen eighty seven, and so they asked 186 00:15:09,559 --> 00:15:13,840 them about certain things like did you take the letter? Or was the note 187 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:16,519 in the case file? What was in the case file? Since it's not 188 00:15:16,679 --> 00:15:22,000 here. Obviously, those original investigators didn't have a lot to say about it, 189 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,679 at least according to the notes from Wendy and Jeff, but they were 190 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:30,279 very certain that they had collected the note that was left at the scene, 191 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,200 and they also just remembered it as a runaway case. Stephen, do you 192 00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:37,559 know if your parents ever actually went to the guard gate and asked, Hey, 193 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:41,120 did somebody call in? Did somebody come in? I was explaining to 194 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:43,399 Bill in our first episode, because Bill isn't based here, but I am. 195 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:48,360 I was explaining about the process for getting into and out of King's Mill. 196 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:50,200 I have friends who live there, and so I spent a lot of 197 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,759 time in my childhood going in and out, and I know that it's very 198 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:56,320 secure, and you have to go to the gate, you have to stop, 199 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,000 you have to call in. They give you the past. Did your 200 00:15:58,039 --> 00:16:02,519 parents ever check one who came in and who came out, and if anybody 201 00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:06,559 actually came for Jennifer that night. Yeah, I don't recall if I'm sure 202 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,519 they did, because at the time, the one ninety nine gate at King's 203 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,960 Mill closed at midnight or eleven o'clock or whatever it was, so it was 204 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,840 only the Route sixty gate was the only one open twenty four hours in nineteen 205 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:22,759 eighty seven. Okay, that's good to know. So in terms of the 206 00:16:22,799 --> 00:16:27,639 documentary, one of the questions we wanted to ask was do you feel that 207 00:16:27,919 --> 00:16:33,799 you were able to be specific enough in terms of who you think could be 208 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:40,679 responsible for Jennifer's disappearance. The series closes with things in an open ended fashion, 209 00:16:40,799 --> 00:16:45,200 but do you feel and we understand there's restrictions legal and otherwise about what 210 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,279 you can and cannot say in a documentary, do you feel like you were 211 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:52,000 able to take it as far as you wanted to. I thought we took 212 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:56,919 it as far as we could take it based on where the cops were currently 213 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:03,639 with the case and with the information that we were able to gain access to 214 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:10,359 ourselves. It is an active case and they are pursuing suspects, and if 215 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,279 you watch the film, you get a sense of where they're headed. I 216 00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:17,799 think for us, when we first started this process, we really didn't think 217 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,000 of this as a who done it with the goal of trying to solve the 218 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:25,480 case like that was not what our intention was when we first started it. 219 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,200 When we were initially meeting with Steven, we thought that this was more of 220 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:37,240 a story about a family tragedy and the fallout of that trauma from nineteen eighty 221 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,440 seven, and so that's how we were pursuing the story. But our curiosity 222 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:45,599 about the case and how, and if you watch the series, you'll see 223 00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:49,680 this in the very first frames, the cops ended up suspecting the parents, 224 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,599 and so we were very curious about that, and so we brought an investigative 225 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,240 reporter or former investigative reporter onto our team to help us. She became an 226 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,799 integral a part of the team, Andrea Weigel when she worked at the News 227 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:07,400 and Observer for many years here in North Carolina, and so she became the 228 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,480 one that really helped us dissect the case because Stephen had sooned the police department 229 00:18:12,599 --> 00:18:18,039 or was in the process of doing that to be able to declare Jennifer as 230 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:22,920 being deceased. I think for the illegal advice and Steven, I'm stepping all 231 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,599 over you right now. But for the legal advice that he had received from 232 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,480 the attorney that he was working with, he was not able to take action 233 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:36,519 against his parents. And so this was I guess one remedy for Steven to 234 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:41,400 hopefully take some steps at closure to be able to say, hey, she's 235 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:47,039 always just been listed as missing, but everybody knows that Jennifer's not coming back, 236 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:51,440 so let's go ahead and make the move to declare her deceased. And 237 00:18:51,519 --> 00:18:55,359 so, because of that work that he had done, he had gained access 238 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,240 to that new case file that was created in the two thousands, and this 239 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,480 was this big, wopping case file that he walked into our house on that 240 00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:07,279 first day of shooting or filming, and that's the material that we had to 241 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:14,160 work with. So as the documentary proceeds, you will see the evidence that 242 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,519 we are Steven pulls out, but that we get to understand how the cops 243 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,839 suspected who they did suspect. Steven, are you comfortable referring to Jennifer's case 244 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,440 as a homicide case or would you still prefer that people refer to it as 245 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,000 missing persons? I'm just curious. Yeah, I haven't really thought about it. 246 00:19:32,079 --> 00:19:34,640 I don't believe that my sister's coming back, so I'm fine either way. 247 00:19:34,839 --> 00:19:38,160 I've just always thought of her as missing. But I didn't what Snia 248 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,480 said. I didn't like to sue the police department. I put my petition 249 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:48,319 the court to have Jennifer declared deceased. I originally made an information request like 250 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:52,319 a public information request to the police department for Jennifer's case file to support the 251 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,480 petition to have ver declared deceased. And then what the police department told my 252 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,240 attorney was, look, we can't give you that on or this way that 253 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:04,079 you asked for it, but if you subpoena the information US for that information, 254 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,200 we won't fight it. And that's how I got the That's how I 255 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:11,480 received the case file. And then when I had Jennifer declared deceased, my 256 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,119 attorney had to go meet with the judge and the police department and then he 257 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:21,039 declared Jennifer deceased and that's when I put a marker in the cemetery for and 258 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,599 it was at the time that felt like closure then, so that was why 259 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:32,440 I did it. I'm still pleasantly surprised they gave you the case file. 260 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,720 From personal experience, the FBI has fought us every step of the way, 261 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,400 and the FBI is the responsible agency in my sister and Rebecca Dowski's murder. 262 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,799 I think that at the time it was probably the distinction set they were treating 263 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,079 Jennifer's case as a cold case and not active. And do won't take this 264 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,640 offer to say that this opportunity to say that the police department has been great 265 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:02,000 to me all the way back to two thousand nine. They've been really good 266 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,240 to me and Collins, and they returned my phone calls and they've just been 267 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,920 great to work with. I wish I could say the same. Yeah, 268 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:18,039 you have a difference. You're wrestling a different beast altogether. Yeah. People 269 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:21,000 have said to me, Bill, you should see the FBI, and you 270 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,079 do recognize that what that actually looks like is William F. Thomas versus the 271 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:33,319 United States of America. That's actually who I'm suing. Yeah, when you 272 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:37,440 think about the resources, they can a picture own money. Yeah, I 273 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:44,759 think they do. Cynthia, I know you said that you didn't set up 274 00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:47,799 for it to be who done it, But if I had to guess, 275 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:52,240 I would imagine that probably tips have begun to come in, either to you 276 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,640 or to Steven or to James City County. Can you speak to that whether 277 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,000 or not tips have come in. Are you getting leads in this case at 278 00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:03,680 all? There? Now you go ahead, I say, no, I 279 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,200 haven't. I've received a couple of phone calls that I've referred to the police 280 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,079 department. I know I've spoken to Jake, but he's told me that he 281 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,160 has received some calls. Nothing really specific that he can follow up on, 282 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,920 but he has received a few calls. And one of those callses from my 283 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,519 roommate. Actually, I know you did speak to her, yes, but 284 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:26,039 I know I was very curious whether or not this was going to yield any 285 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:30,880 investigative leads eventually. Yeah, I hope it does, and I know the 286 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:37,160 police department is hoping that as well. You're listening to Mind over Murder. 287 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:48,319 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 288 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,559 mindover Murder. Let's talk about Jake Rice for a minute. He appears in 289 00:22:53,599 --> 00:23:00,920 the documentary what's his role now as a forensic investigator? Is he still with 290 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:06,000 the James City County Police Department on a full time basis or what's his status. 291 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,599 He's there part time. He retired as a police officer, but he 292 00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:14,279 still works for the police department. He just doesn't carry a badge and a 293 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:19,799 gun. And he and Rich are the principal investigators on the case. Jake 294 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,839 has the most history with it, going back to two thousand, probably tennish 295 00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:30,960 and he knows the most And what's your relationship like with Investigator Rice, Jake 296 00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:36,480 is great. That's not to say that we haven't had tense conversations, or 297 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,680 at least because we have. He has a process that he has to work 298 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,319 through. I have to respect the process. I can't change it. The 299 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,920 only thing I can do is try to help him get through it as fast 300 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,160 as he can. But you know, Jake has been terrific. There were 301 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,039 definitely times when I was watching and we were watching you make phone calls to 302 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,519 Jake, and Jake was saying, there's stuff is still out of the lab. 303 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:03,519 I don't have results for you yet. And again I had that sense 304 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,279 of deja vous. I've seen this before, I've heard this before. I 305 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:10,960 know Bill gets these same phone calls. There's just this real sense of empathy 306 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,160 about this whole entire thing with what you're going through is related to what Bill's 307 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,279 going through. It's a little startling to realize that seems to be what most 308 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:22,799 people who have a cold case are going through rather than I think it's the 309 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,559 norm rather than a surprise, and I hate that. I hate that's the 310 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:29,640 norm. One of the things we talk about in Mind over Murder is that 311 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,680 there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides in the United States, 312 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,720 so there are at least potentially millions of people. If you think about everybody 313 00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:42,960 having a few loved ones within their family, there are actually millions of people 314 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,640 going through this. It's actually usually a very quiet process. It was a 315 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:56,000 privilege to meet you through the documentary process, and then Kristin and I were 316 00:24:56,039 --> 00:25:00,079 watching it at the same time, but not in the same room. We 317 00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:03,160 were both making a point of, hey, let's watch these four episodes and 318 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,759 compare notes to some of which we did on the air on our podcast. 319 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,200 Because it's usually such a private process, it was unusual to see all of 320 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,920 these very strong parallels between your journey and mine. I think I got most 321 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:21,480 heavily involved in Kathy's case in two thousand and nine, which I think also 322 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,359 roughly parallels the timeframe where you decided you wanted to step forward. How did 323 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,599 you feel about opening up your at least that part of your life over the 324 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:36,119 course of seven plus years. I just the big picture was justice for my 325 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,640 sister, and so whatever I had to do to help deliver justice for my 326 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,559 sister was what I did, whatever consequence. Yeah, that's just what I 327 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:49,039 did. Was I always kept the big picture of the big goal was justice 328 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:52,920 for my sister, and so I just did whatever was required for that. 329 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:59,279 Did you ever find yourself circling back with Cynthia as a filmmaker and saying, 330 00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:03,240 let's not put that in or did you think to yourself, I'm focused on 331 00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:08,160 the larger goal and I'm willing to do this show the process works and all, 332 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,839 yeah, I'll let Cynthia answer that. No, prescient Cynthia. Now. 333 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:21,920 The interesting thing and when Stephen watched the episodes towards the end, he 334 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,000 had not seen anything. He walked out and he said, what did you 335 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:33,119 say again about the the trust exercise? Oh? Yeah, this was the 336 00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:38,920 ultimate kind of trustball exercise. Because I didn't see any of it until I 337 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,680 guess about a year before it came out. I saw the first couple episodes, 338 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,200 and we were still waiting on lab results and everything else for the fourth. 339 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,319 But yeah, I didn't see any of it for six and a half 340 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,720 years. And this was Cynthia's film, and whatever she wanted to put in 341 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,960 it, she could put in it. Yeah, it's a big responsibility, 342 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,160 but it's also an honor to have someone like Steven trust you like that with 343 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:15,599 all the material that we had and the intimacy and everyone that we filmed was 344 00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:19,279 great about that, I have to say, or mostly I have to say, 345 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:23,319 But it's like that as a documentary filmmaker all the time. It's like 346 00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:30,680 that that fine line between being there and showing enough so the audience is very 347 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:38,400 clear about the emotional trauma and the struggles, and then when does it become 348 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:45,400 exploitation, and so you have to be mindful of that at all times. 349 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,279 I feel like Cynthia, I wanted to ask one thing in particular about the 350 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,039 re enactments. I noticed you had actors, of course, for Jen, 351 00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:57,319 for Margie and for Ron. Were you there orchestrating everything that was going on 352 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,200 with all of the actors and actresses? How long did that take? I'm 353 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,720 really curious about that when Stephen, I'm curious how you felt about watching somebody 354 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,960 playing your sister. But let me start with Cynthia talk about the reenactments a 355 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,680 little bit. Sure, Yeah, they were very much a part of the 356 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:18,400 whole process of what I was envisioning for the film. And I'd never directed 357 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,759 actors before, so that was a bit I was a bit nervous about that 358 00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:26,799 process, as it felt very foreign to me. But I really was determined 359 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:37,680 to use that thre's recreation scenes to amplify the unreliableness of memory. That's how 360 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,799 it all started, was that we were getting these different takes on Jennifer, 361 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,839 like who Jennifer was. So it started out with that, like everybody had 362 00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:48,319 a different Jennifer when they talked about her, and I thought that was so 363 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,160 interesting and compelling and shouldn't be that surprising when you think about a fifteen year 364 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,160 old girl, she is going to be a play a different role for different 365 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,880 people. She's going to be for her mom, her dad, her brother, 366 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,960 her friends, her teachers, she's she will be different and described differently, 367 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:14,039 And that started out this whole idea of trying to implify that theme again 368 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,720 of having memory being unreliable too, Stephen, How was it for you watching 369 00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:25,160 someone playing Jennifer? So much of this whole experience and not just the film 370 00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:29,799 going back to two thousand and nine has been surreal. And that's just one 371 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,920 other surreal moment. But the first time you know that I met Savannah, 372 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,680 Yeah, it was just super weird. And you know that was long before 373 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,680 I had seen anything. I think it was at a birthday party for Cynthia. 374 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,799 That where I first met Savannah, that's the actress that played Jennifer. 375 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,400 Yeah, that's see. That's another experience that you and Bill actually have in 376 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,640 common. When Oxygen Today documentary on the Colonial Parkway murders, we also had 377 00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:59,480 re enactments, and I remember sitting with Bill in a van right outside of 378 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,759 the area where they were doing a reenactment of Kathy's murder and just asking him, 379 00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:07,680 mariy are you okay meeting an actress who's playing your sister. Essentially, 380 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,279 I can't imagine how surreal it is. I think that's a great word, 381 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,400 Stephen. This is going to be a very intense and unusual process, but 382 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,160 your product is amazing. One of the things I was very struck by were 383 00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:26,920 the use of the real life footage from what essentially are interrogations of Stephen and 384 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:32,319 Jennifer's mother. How did you gain access to them and how did you feel 385 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:37,400 like you were going to preserve the integrity of the conversation in showing them. 386 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,640 Obviously you're not going to show hours of footage in a documentary that has a 387 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,599 limited runtime, Cynthia, how do you work around that? Copies of the 388 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,920 interrogation were on DVDs in that original that case file that Stephen acquired in twenty 389 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,799 fourteen, and so that's how we got access to that materials because it was 390 00:30:55,839 --> 00:31:00,680 just part of what was given over Stephen made this petition, and so when 391 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,160 we came across that or when we watched it. Tom Vickers, who is 392 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,799 the editor that I've been working with for many years, he's he and I've 393 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:15,119 been a team or all of the work since I don't know, for fifteen 394 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,920 years. Almost he was like, oh my god, because I was like 395 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,839 spot checking stuff because we're out in the field and he's you got to sit 396 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,359 down and watch it from start to finish, and so sitting down and watching 397 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,359 it, and we contemplated for a long time as we're editing is like, 398 00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:30,960 how much do you think that we can show? And it's like, gosh, 399 00:31:30,079 --> 00:31:34,680 it would be amazing to have a whole episode of just that material so 400 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:38,240 that you can really get a sense of what that experience is like for someone, 401 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:44,839 and especially after you see the ending of the series, going back and 402 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,279 watching that again. And we do visually reference that at the end of episode 403 00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:56,960 four, so that we remind the audience of what emotionally that probably was doing 404 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,160 at that time. It was important for us to have as much as we 405 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,519 could have in there. But yes, when you are doing something for a 406 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,640 large streamer broadcaster like HBO, they are concerned about audiences and making sure that 407 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,480 they don't tune away. And so it was a negotiation as to how much 408 00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:17,720 we get. And that was that was long, because you know, that 409 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:27,480 was that first interview with my mom took place on a Thursday, from around 410 00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:31,000 six pm to midnight. There were six hours of it from that day and 411 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:37,279 then three hours of it the following day. Wow, And that was that 412 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:42,519 was a really hard day. Are you in touch with former investigator Wendy Read 413 00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:45,599 as well? I talked to Wendy on occasion. I don't talk to regularly 414 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:50,839 or anything. But yeah, just on where occasion I do so, are 415 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:57,599 the two of you on the same page in terms of your personal theories about 416 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,000 the case about what may have happened to Jennifer or is there any place in 417 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,400 which the two of you vary about what you think may have happened to her? 418 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:19,880 I'll answer it by not answering it. That's what okay. And obviously, 419 00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:24,839 as a filmmaker, and I think Steven's been on this similar ride with 420 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:31,640 us, we have to imagine what transpired because that helps us figure out where 421 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:37,039 do we want to go with asking more questions and who do we think we 422 00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:40,200 should talk to and all that stuff. So, of course, over the 423 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:46,240 course of working on this case or making the film, I've had different ideas 424 00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:51,480 floating in my head as to what you can think what you think transpired, 425 00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:57,119 and it has varied wildly. I have to say, I think that what 426 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,880 you'll see is we still don't know, because like trying to put those pieces 427 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,799 together with what information we do have now, which is a lot more than 428 00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:08,079 what we started with, some of it still doesn't line up, so like 429 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:13,119 how does that happen? So still trying to make sense of how she got 430 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:21,559 out of the house without anybody knowing is still a mystery, and so it's 431 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,920 yeah, we I mean, I was hoping that we would have more answers, 432 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:28,599 and I think we I don't know, Stephen, if you want to 433 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:34,800 add anything to that, No, I think that's that's fair. And it's 434 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,639 look, one of the things that led to all this heartache, and is 435 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:50,679 speculation right to try hard not to repeat that same mistake in the absence of 436 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:59,800 actually knowing so well put, we're not trying to compare our limited experience with 437 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,719 anything close to the number of years now that the two of you have dedicated 438 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,320 to Jennifer's disappearance. Even Christin and I have spent hours talking about just that 439 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,599 one issue, for example, and lots of others. How did Jennifer get 440 00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:19,800 out of the house without anyone noticing? And we went through any number of 441 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,400 options, some of which seem to make sense to us at the time, 442 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,480 even my view of the case, which again is limited based on all the 443 00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:31,960 articles we've read, watching the series very carefully, really being very impressed with 444 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,760 the amount of work that you've put in, you still end up with almost 445 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:42,719 as many questions as you have answers. Was that a hard sell Cynthia for 446 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,199 a documentary. Were you ever under any pressure to push this in a particular 447 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,039 direction. Obviously we don't know what happened to Jennifer, and the series has 448 00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:59,079 to end on a question mark. I think that you, as a filmmaker 449 00:35:59,119 --> 00:36:06,119 could have a lot of pressure from executives from certain networks or streaming platforms. 450 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:10,400 But working with HBO, they came on board fairly early on for development when 451 00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:15,719 we had no idea that we were the case was going to even become active 452 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:21,119 again. So we never said from the very get go that this was going 453 00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:22,679 to be a case that was going to be solved. So I think that 454 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:29,320 there was never this oh my gosh, you didn't solve that awful. But 455 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,480 I do think that as the case became active and we were there and the 456 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:37,360 throws and the thick of the investigation and uncovering things on our own, there 457 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:44,119 was some I use the word excitement but for lack of a better word, 458 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,719 about the excitement over the potential of learning more. And we do learn a 459 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,840 lot more. We don't have the definitive answer, but we do learn a 460 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,079 heck of a lot more, and I think that we're closer to understanding more 461 00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:04,000 about Jennifer's state of mind and other things that are going on surrounding Jennifer that 462 00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:09,079 play into this whole case. And so I felt as though that not having 463 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:15,679 a case that was solved did not hinder the power of the story when it 464 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,960 finally did come to an end for us and how we were telling the story, 465 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,239 would you ever consider returning with a fifth episode if there were significant developments 466 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,119 in the case. Yeah, I would love to be able to do that, 467 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,480 to pick it up and hoping that we do have more concrete answers. 468 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,920 Yeah, Stephen, how do you feel about that? Yeah, I'm open 469 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,079 for it. Well, you just have to wait and see it. You 470 00:37:42,119 --> 00:37:49,559 know. If telling Jennifer's story helps others, than I'm all for it. 471 00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:53,719 And ultimately, I think for us, it was like I think and Bill 472 00:37:53,760 --> 00:38:00,760 you were hitting on this earlier, like having the access to a family who 473 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,719 is in this limbo about a cold case and about a family member and not 474 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:12,559 having the answers and this lingering trauma from all of that and what it does 475 00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:19,440 to all the parties at play was really important and we didn't want that to 476 00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:23,599 be lost, and that was what our primary storyline was to begin with. 477 00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:28,679 And we always honored that, even when the case became more active and there's 478 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,079 more interest in the clues and stuff like that, for us on our team 479 00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:37,280 and also with Stephen, it's like, it's still about It's still about the 480 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:45,239 process, it's still about the family, and that always was what we made 481 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:52,119 for us important to continue to follow. And I think that's ultimately what does 482 00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:57,519 come out most in our episode where we sat and deconstructed everything. Knowing Jennifer's 483 00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:00,239 case and the whereabouts and the wise and the where of it all is great. 484 00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:04,400 But what really came across to me, and I kept saying to Bill 485 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,159 over and over, is how very much I feel for Steven, how empathetic 486 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,679 I felt about all of this. And part of that is just because nobody 487 00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:15,199 should have to go through this. Also part of it is I've watched Bill 488 00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:17,719 go through it. I know it. I just felt an enormous amount of 489 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,320 empathy and sympathy to the point where I couldn't binge it all at once. 490 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,519 Normally I would, but I couldn't do it all at once. I had 491 00:39:24,519 --> 00:39:29,360 to divide it up over two days because it just felt at times this is 492 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,119 so emotional and so wrenching and that I couldn't manage to do it all at 493 00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:37,239 once. If that is your ultimate goal, from my point of view, 494 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:40,119 you achieved it. I guess. Last question for both of you is what's 495 00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:45,199 next for the two of you? Oh gosh. For me, it's just 496 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,360 about moving forward, still doing what I can for Jennifer, but moving forward 497 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:55,480 and being at peace knowing that I've done all I can do for me. 498 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,320 That's all I ever wanted to know. All this in the absence of justice 499 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:06,440 for my sister and the Alemabus piece, Cynthia. What's next for you? 500 00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:08,079 I know it's probably got to feel a little I asked you off air, 501 00:40:08,639 --> 00:40:13,400 does this feel exciting or does it feel anti climactic now that you've got it 502 00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:17,320 out there in this process of so many years work? Yeah? What are 503 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,199 you doing now? Yes? Even and I've talked about that a little bit. 504 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,639 I feel lost, like unmoored almost. And filmmakers will say this, 505 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,039 you don't know. Filmmakers will say that you have to abandon the story, 506 00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:34,360 that this story never concludes. It's one of those things where I don't want 507 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,800 to feel like we've abandoned this storyline or Jennifer's story. And I's still very 508 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,719 much present, because I still think that there's things that that we haven't told. 509 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,199 There are things that in the back of my brain that keep it alive 510 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:53,760 and wanting to continue with this story. But I'm a need to have work 511 00:40:53,800 --> 00:41:01,519 that pays, so I am working on other contents and I was hired by 512 00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:07,719 NASCAR to do a series about nine year olds that race at a dirt track 513 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:13,719 outside of Charlotte, and that's been very different and really fun. So it's 514 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:19,199 nice to have that balance between serious, more serious material and something that is 515 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,519 not. But surprisingly this is pretty become pretty serious. I was thinking that 516 00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:28,440 we was going to have a lighter tone. Yeah. And the other thing 517 00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:32,159 that I've been doing with two team members of mine, Claire Johnson, who 518 00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:37,519 films with me all the time, she's a cinematographer, and Sandra Davidson, 519 00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:43,639 who is a producer. We've been going to the Ozarks filming with bigfoot hunters, 520 00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:49,159 and so that has been a real gift. Actually you get to go 521 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,719 camping and off grid, and so it allows me to really disconnect and to 522 00:41:53,960 --> 00:42:00,199 think about life in a really different way. And surprisingly, like how a 523 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,199 lot of these stories overlap and interesting and unique ways, is that this is 524 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,119 a story about the pursuit. It's a story about a journey, and I 525 00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:13,119 find myself telling a lot of those kinds of stories. That is very cool. 526 00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:22,199 I look forward to actual footage of Bigfoot in that case. That is 527 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,400 going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Burden of Proof 528 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,960 is available on HBO Max or I guess we're just calling it Max now. 529 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,519 Burden of Proof is available on Max. We do encourage you to stream it. 530 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,480 Thank you so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. 531 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:50,559 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero 532 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,480 and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 533 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,920 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 534 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:07,800 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow 535 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,000 us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page 536 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,360 on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill 537 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:22,000 Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind 538 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:22,039 Over Murder.