WEBVTT

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Hello everybody, and welcomes is the
Apostate profit? How is everyone doing?

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I am here today with Jay Dyer, a very very special guest. H

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Jay, do you like my intro
music? I do. I'm having to

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turn you off because I had you
already going in the background, so yeah,

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I'm getting a double dose of you
and the music. And so it

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was like a remix. But yeah, nice, amazing, that's amazing.

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That must sound even better. Uh. This is basically like the Islamic humming

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that they always play, pathetically remixed
and made much better. It would be

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much better if it always sounded like
this, but they just don't get it.

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Huh. So Jay hweida, I'm
good. Yeah. You know,

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we had a good chat the other
day on my channel, and you brought

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up a lot of good issues and
kind of probably stuff that was old hat

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to you. But it's good to
go to that stuff because you know,

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maybe a lot of my audience might
not know a lot of that kind of

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old hat classic stuff that you know. So yeah, you brought a lot

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of interesting insights. One thing I'd
like to say from the outset was a

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lot of people got mad or fussed. A lot of Muslims and even a

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few Christians that you and I would
have these conversations. And it's odd to

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me because, first thing, you
know, whether you're a Muslim or Atheist

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or Christian or whatever, we should
all be aware of fallacies and what they

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are. And the genetic fallacy is
one of the more well known fallacies.

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Because it doesn't matter what source an
argument comes from, the argument either stands

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or falls on its own. So
it doesn't matter who says the argument.

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If Judas says an argument has nothing
to do with his betrayal, whether that

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argument is true or false, right
likewise, and you would think people would

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know this likewise. The only case
that I can think of in which we

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would consider own bodies character and an
argument is if the argument was about that

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person's character, or if they committed
a crime or something like that. In

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that case, it would be appropriate
to investigate their character. But the basis

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of their arguments, the validity the
arguments themselves, none of them have any

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None of that has anything to do
with the person's character and their beliefs.

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And it's odd to me that people
don't understand that. But as I'm beginning

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to realize with I think This is
like my fifth or sixth Islamic debate.

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Fallacies seem to be something that a
lot of Muslims are not aware of.

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Yeah, precisely, I agree with
everything that's anything pretty much. And you

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will see this every single time when
you have a debate with Muslims, most

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Muslims, most apologists, you will
encounter the same complaints all the time.

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If you are if you genuinely want
you to discuss this topic, then you

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shouldn't talk to this person, shouldn't
talk to that person, should talk to

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this other guy. Only talk to
us, Only discuss with us. People

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who criticize Islam are unreliable, and
if you talk to them, that means

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that you are automatically marked as somebody
who has no genuine interest in debating,

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and you must be shunned at all
costs. And that's understandable considering that criticizing

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Islam is not allowed, and especially
me as an as an ex Muslim,

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I'm not even supposed to exist in
Danna Kikichu's world. Like he told me

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when we when we were talking,
he basically told me that he thinks I

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should be executed for my leaving Islam. So it is really it is Islam

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is unique, and Muslims are unique
in that way where they very often just

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have to invoke that fallacy without understanding
the problem that it that it that it

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presents. As said, when we
talk about the whole issue with the name

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of God Yahweh and Islam versus versus
Abrahamic biblical religion, he chooses to now

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completely ignore the points even when you
bring it up simply because because you reference

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me, or because you make a
reference to what he said to me.

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And when he talked to me about
it, he clearly had no clue and

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later he denied what he actually said. He basically blasphemed and then later denied

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what he actually said. It was
surprising because it's I mean, everybody can

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see the clip, and you know
he clearly says it's a pagan name,

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and then when asked about that,
he says, I never said that.

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So you know, it's like this
is multiple times now where I'm really questioning,

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you know, does he is he? Really? Is he disingenuous?

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Right, because I mean, if
you have a person on record saying it,

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it's really difficult to then rewrite the
history and say, now I never

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said that, but you did say
that, so at least you would.

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You could either own up to it
and say, well, I said that,

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but here's what I meant, or
here's a clarification, but the outright

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just so I never said that.
I'm noticing a pattern of And this is

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not to say that Christians are always
honest. People in any position can be

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dishonest. You can be an atheist
be dishonest. You'd be a Christian be

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dishonest. You could be a Muslim
and be dishonest. But there seems to

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be, as you noted, a
kind of a tendency to shun the rational

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discourse, shun the logical argumentation.
And again I'm not an expert on Islam.

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I'm still in the process of learning. To me, it looks like

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there's a tendency to when you have
this going back to the original pure Islam,

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which is what my understanding of Daniel's
school, that it what it represents,

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there's a tendency again to have to
shun logic, to have to shun

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argumentation, because that's seen as a
later development. Lam is a later development,

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and that might lead to problems,
right because there might be because there

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might be questions that are not permitted
to ask. I remember in the when

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I was preparing for the Azra Rashid
debate, we found some of those old

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Sunni texts which, even though they
were engaged in Kalam, one of the

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texts dealt with the names of Alla
and the attributes. And there was a

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point where the question is raised,
well, how do we reconcile the fact

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of God of Allah's pure unity with
the fact that we're naming many names and

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what about the distinction between the names? And at a certain point it says

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it is not permitted to ask this
question. So it's just sort of like

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you can debate and discuss to a
certain point, then it's not permitted.

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And as you were saying, the
idea that there's this unity about Islamic theology

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is not true. At one point
the debate, you know, Daniel's trying

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to say Christians disagree, there's debates, there's there's that. Wait a minute,

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I mean, you guys don't agree. You guys have all kinds of

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So in other words, if disagreements
made a position true or false, no

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position would be true or false.
I mean, yeah, they would need

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because none of them would be true. Because now if some sort of majority

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opinion or if the fact that we
have, you know, thirty percent of

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the Islamic schools agree about this position, sixty percent agree with this position.

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I mean, none of that has
anything to do with whether it's true false.

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It's another fallacy to appeal to majority, appeal to consensus. You can

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certainly bring me in experts, but
expert testimony itself doesn't necessarily prove a thing.

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And so I just over and over
and over to hear these appeals that

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were very similar to you know,
fallacies that I've seen in other debates that

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when I would bring them up,
you could tell that he didn't even know

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what what I was referencing. What
do you mean? Yeah, Yeah,

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there was this very awkward moment that
that I saw, actually multiple awkward moments

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about the very same thing during the
debate that you had with Daniel Kikitchu,

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which was where you brought up the
idea that the Quran tells Jews and Christians

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that they should read their their own
book, and it says that their book

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is is confirmed. But if you
go to that book, then you have

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the problem of somebody like Daniel kikitch
You're saying, okay, but those books

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are invalid because they have contradictions and
they were corrupted, and so you are

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caught in this whole in this whole
dilemma. Okay, are those books now

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confirmed and authentic or are they not? And he then comes in and and

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and presents this position, which is
the best he can do, because it

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is just it's it's a whole problem
that Muslims can't get out of. He

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then tells you that when the Jews
and Christians go to those books, they

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will see contradictions in those books with
monotheism as presented in Islam, which is

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why they will understand that those books
are wrong. Okay, but that means

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that they have to evaluate that whole
situation from a clam's perspective, which doesn't

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make sense. Yeah, if what's
in question is the continuity of the Qoran

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with previous revelation, then I asked
a very simple question to Daniel, which

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was, what is the epistemic principle
that you have that tells you when the

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Old Testament is true and when it's
false? And he says the Koran.

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But the thing is that that's what's
in question, So you can't just appeal

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to the thing in question when we're
asking about prior revelation. Now you could

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say, but Jay, what he
did in the day he said, but

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Jay, you you appealed to the
Old Testament too, in terms of your

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position, Yeah, but I don't
argue that the Old Testament has a lot

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of contradictions. So if I thought
the Old Testament had contradictions and Christianity was

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the new revelation that replaced it,
I would be in the same boat as

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Daniel's position. You see, yeah, because you could say, well,

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you know, the New Testament appeals
to the Old Testament, right, but

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it ever makes the appeal that the
Old Testament is true and valid, but

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it also has contradictions. That's Daniel's
position. Daniels position, the Old Testament

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is true and valid because the Kuran
says, So, however, there's all

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these passages that don't teach the pure
mono theism of Islam. And I still

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have that drawing here that I had
drawn up the white paneous whiteboard here.

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So these are just examples of Theophanes
where we find real distinctions in God in

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the Old Testament. And there's more. This is just one list that I

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could fit on one board. And
Daniel says, yeah, those those are

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problem texts that are all contradictions.
Now wait a Minute's that's why I asked

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the question, Well, then,
what's the epistemic principle that tells you when

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you go through the Old Testament?
Oh, this is a true verse false,

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verse true, verse false, verse, this chapter true, this chapter

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false, this chunk true, this
chunk false. And the principle was whatever

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is consistent with the Quran. But
the question was, how do we know

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that the Quran is assistant with prior
revelation given the fact that the Koran says,

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you can validate this with the books
given to the Jews and the Christians.

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You see, this is, like
you said, it's an irresolvable dilemma.

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And that's why I had to sort
of draw this out for him on

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the small board, what is your
episode of principle similarity to the Old Testament?

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And then eventually ended up saying,
well, you just you just look

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and see with your eyes what's consistent
with with what's not consistent? You see,

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so you just look with your eyes. So can I now appeal to

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the same thing of just looking with
my eyes? It's it's also extremely funny

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because the Koran clearly and explicitly says
about the Jews and Christians. It says,

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why do they come to you when
when they have you know, what

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was revealed to them, basically saying
that they should just go back and read

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their books. But but that doesn't
make any sense. If you once again

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present this whole whole problem, it
again goes into this circular nonsense that he

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cannot get out of. What are
they supposed to do? They are supposed

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to the Jews and Christians are supposed
to go and read their own scriptures.

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They don't supposed to come to muhumed
Okay, if they are supposed to read

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their own scriptures, and they will
be educated by their own scriptures on their

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own beliefs and on how their beliefs
are, on what they are supposed to

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believe according to their own scriptures,
which if they do that will eventually contradict

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with what Islam tells them. But
then Danna Kikichu and other Muslims come out

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and say, well, no,
no, no, no, you can't

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take those things in there that contradict
with real belief because you know those are

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at values. You take the rest. Okay, what is the rest?

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Well, whatever, agrees with my
beliefs. Yeah, and imagine that you

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couldn't see that that was a circle. Now, if the firms circular logic,

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then I would have I mean he
would That would have been more honest

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and he could have like maybe gone
in another direction. But of course he

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didn't want to do that because typically
when Muslims do accept varying degrees of philosophy,

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whichever school they're in, it's usually
kind of a very broad stroke.

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For example, I have Azra Rashid's
book. When we did our debate,

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I got his book, and his
approach to epistemology was just a very basic

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empiricism. So, you know,
if you want to have that school and

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that approach, that's what that's that's
fine. But anybody that does that,

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it's going to have to deal with
the outworkings of adopting that position. So

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if you have a very basic empiricist
view, you're going to have a hard

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time justifying or give an account for
questions like what about a circular argument that

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you're presenting about the relationship with the
cryant prior revelation, You can't affirm just

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from a strictly philosophical perspective. You're
not going to be able to affirm circular

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argumentation if you're an empiricist, unless
you just want to say that my position

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is just self evident. But if
he wants to go that route, then

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I can just say, okay,
well my position is self evident if everybody

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can just appeal to their own internal
self evidence, which I don't believe we

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should do in a debate. But
if you do that, it kind of

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makes debate no longer possible because the
opponent, you see, can appeal to

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the same thing I walk and just
appeal to all of my principles are just

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quote self evident. Right, So
so that's not usually the best. That's

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not usually how debates go unless you're
debating something like, you know, some

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obscure topic like transcendental arguments or circule
argumentation itself. Is it possible? Is

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it not possible? Most debates are
not going in that way. And that's

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why, you know, sort of
three says there is no God but He

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the living, the self subsisting.
He sent down the book that is truth

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upon the confirming what it was before
he sent the Torah, and the in

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jail the Gospel, and it is
the guidance to mankind nothing about but it

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is half corrupted, you see,
Oh, it is seventy percent corrupted.

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And that's the thing, is that
when you actually look at as and I

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haven't. Let's just take the first
ten stories, for example. I went

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through the first ten and I got
a giant list of all of the references

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in the first ten two sections of
the Torah and the prophets, right,

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And here's the thing, And this
is what I was trying to get it.

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I don't think Daniel got this point, but I was trying to get

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it across, which is that you've
got giant portions that are referred to referenced

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giant stories, the Exodus story,
the conquests of David, different stories in

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the Book of Genesis, for example, the creation narrative is largely affirmed.

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So if we're going to admit that
these giant portions of the Torah are correct,

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then we've now we've got a problem
of giant portions not correct. Right,

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So it doesn't really matter what percent
did you want to say. Let's

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say you think seventy percent of it's
true and sent thirty percent false, or

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maybe you think thirty percent of the
Old Testament and the prophets is true,

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and seventy percent falls either way.
You're stuck in the same kind of bind

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because number one, the Quran actually
says, as you noted, that it's

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not consistent, right, excuse me, that the Old Testament is not full

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of errors. That's a later argument
that they made. That is when it

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does, I think, like you
said, when it does mention that they

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perverted the message, it says they
perverted the message with their mouth. It

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doesn't say the text is perverted.
So there's not an intertextual argument that I'm

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aware of that argues that the Torah
and the Gospel are full of errors.

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This is a later argument. This
is why they go to talk about going

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to non believers. Well, they
ran to you know, bart Erman and

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people for me for so long until
bart Erman said that now there is historical

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evidence for Christ and crucifixion, and
then I think they wanted to get rid

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of using bart Erman because again,
so it's like this double stad is what

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I'm trying to say. There's a
double standard of you know, I can't

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talk to you because you don't have
the same religion as me, And it's

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like, but it has not hanthing
to do with the arguments, but the

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arguments are true or false regardless of
the person. But to go back to

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your point, like you know,
I'm just trying to stress that. Look,

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if you're gonna say that a giant
portion of the prior revelation is false,

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which is what his position amounts to, then you're gonna have to give

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an account for why does the Quran
then assume many of these stories oftentimes in

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passing, so it'll just reference an
event or a person, right, And

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how else would we know the context
and the meaning of the background of that

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person without going to the prior revelation
which predates them, predates the Koran,

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predates the Koran and Islam. But
we have some very very explicit Quran versus,

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like Chapter five, verse forty seven, which say, and let the

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people off the Gospel, Christians judge
by what Allah has revealed therein, and

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whoever does not judge by what Allah
is revealed, then those are the defiantly

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disobedient. So according to that verse
itself, who are what are Christians supposed

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to judge by by the Gospel?
By what was revealed to them by in

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the Kuran's understanding and it Slam's understanding
the Gospel is basically a revelation that was

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revealed to Jesus, like the Quran
was revealed to Mohamed. It has a

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very it has a big misunderstanding of
what the Gospel actually is, and it

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tells the Christians explicitly there that they
should simply stand by and judge by what

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the Gospel says. And there is
no single reference throughout the Quran which explicitly

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tells you that those books are no
longer valued, that those books have been

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corrupted, that they have been corrupted
into oblivion. Such a mindset only only

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emerged over the centuries much later,
I think, as late as like the

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eleventh or eleventh century or twelfth century
it was. It became entrenched into Islamic

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thinking that those that those books,
the Torah and the Injia as they refer

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to them, meaning the Gospel and
the Torah, were overall corrupted. But

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that is just that is just as
it seems, an explanation that they came

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up with because they could not explain
the abundance of of contradictions between the Bible

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and the Quran, and contradictions on
such a level that you cannot possibly believe

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that both of those sources as they
are today came from the same God.

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You cannot hold on to full them
at the same time. It is simply

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impossible. And I would say,
it's like this whole game of those books

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are corrupt. They're not in their
original form. They are only consistent wherever

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they are consistent with my beliefs.
That would be like if if you went

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out there, like if Christians I
went out there, or if or if

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I, or if anybody went out
there and said, you know, Muhammad

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was actually a righteous guy. He
was led and he was leading people to

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the belief in one God. But
his followers corrupted his sayings and corrupted the

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actual Quran, which was full of
truth. And when Wilton's then asked,

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well how can you how can you
improve this, you simply say, well,

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everything that Mohammad said, everything in
the Quran that agrees with our Abrahamic

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beliefs is correct, and everything else
that disagrees is obviously corrupted. And there

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is your proof. Now let go
off your Islamic beliefs and come to the

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truth. Put put them in the
same position. Yeah exactly. I mean

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you two points there that come to
mind. I want to read that sort

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of five. I'm glad you mentioned
it because it's really strong. It says,

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how is it that they come to
THEE for judgment when they have the

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Torah? Wherein is God judgment?
Even after that they turn their backs and

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they're not believers. Truly, we
sent down the Torah. They're in as

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guidance, wherein as guidance and light
by what the prophets who submitted unto God,

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judge those who are Jews, as
did the sages and the rabbis in

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accordance with such with God's books,
as they were bidden to preserve it,

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and to which they were witnesses.
So fear not mankind, fear me.

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My science are for sell, not
my science for a paltry price. Where

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whosoever judges not by what God has
sent down. So like as you said,

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he goes on to say in the
Footsteps, we sent Jesus confirming the

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Torah, and we gave him that
gospel confirming the Torah. So the assumption

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of these texts is that there's continuity
not just with the Old Testament the crime,

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but between the Torah and what Jesus
said. Right, But when we

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go to what Jesus said, of
course there's a lot of problem texts,

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such as the entire Gospel of John, which is why usually Islamic apologetics just

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says, that's when we throw out
So now we're throwing out entire books because

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as you pointed out, well,
wait a minute, the Koran speaks as

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if they thought the Gospel or the
Jail was this book that Jesus got,

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like the like Muhammad got the Koran. It's not. It's a recorded it's

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the disciples recording this oral message and
then passing on various texts which give,

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in my view, a coherent narrative. So it's just amazing that this it's

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not a very complex argument. I
mean, it might be complex if you're

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not used to the Old Testament,
or if you don't know actually what's in

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the Torah and the prophets and the
Bible. But if you actually go and

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look and see, it's pretty clear. Now. The other thing that Daniel

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reference was the text in Jeremiah,
and he didn't even get that. This

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was actually called out by one of
the super chat questions. I think if

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I recall, but he said,
oh, well, you see, Jeremiah

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says that the scry have perverted the
text. It doesn't say the scribes perverted

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the Torah. It says that the
scribes perverted their text, meaning they're what

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I would say. When Jesus rebukes
the Pharisees, he says, you've added

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things to the commands of God.
And it doesn't mean that the Torah was

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essentially altered, because Jesus says in
the same gospel that the scriptures cannot be

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broken. He presupposes and cites the
Torah at length throughout the Gospels. So

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the text in Jeremiah is not,
first of all, referring to the tour

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itself being corrupted. It is talking
about the rabbinical traditions. However, even

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if Daniel did want to say that
the text in Jeremiah is referring to the

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Torah being corrupted, Daniel doesn't have
a principle by which to know for sure

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that that text of Jeremiah isn't corrupted, because the entire Old Testament and prophets,

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in his view, are potentially corrupted. That's why asked in the principle

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of epistemic certitude, like what is
the principle by which you judge when the

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Old Testament is true when it's false? It's whenever it agrees with the Kuran.

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Ok, well, how do you
know that the text in Jeremiah that

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you're citing about corruption isn't also corrupted
because it agrees with the Kuran. So

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again it all comes back to this
circle. But as you pointed out,

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it's not even a good circle because
the book itself that he's is his ultimate

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principle, already affirms that there's not
error and contradiction in the prior revelations.

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Yeah, even if we talk about
so when we talk about Jeremiah as a

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source, there is another problem which
we talked about last week when we were

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in your channel, which is that
Jeremiah is an easy prophet as a prophetic

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source, is not even recognized in
Islam. So you could it's not mentioned

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in the Quran. This might be
a big surprise to too many people,

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but Jeremiah is not mentioned in the
Koran. Huge huge prophet in Abrahamic religion.

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Samuel is not mentioned in the Koran. Huge prophet. Isaiah is amazingly

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huge prophet not mentioned in the Quran. Islam as no clue about Isaiah.

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Daniel, which is very ironic,
is also Daniel Kichu's name is not mentioned

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in the Quran. These prophets are
not recognized as prophets anywhere in the Quran.

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Any most knowledge about these these prophets
comes from Jews and Christians. They

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have to go to Jews and Christians
literally to get information about about these people.

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So when it comes to Daniel Kiki
you referencing something in Jeremiah, that

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would mean he is making reference to
a book that is a prophetic book according

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to the Jews and Christians, whom
he cannot trust because they allegedly corrupted everything.

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So he is appealing to a potentially
corrupted source, which, according to

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him, argues that things were at
some point corrupted. There's just no way

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to go, hope for to make
up solid argument against for the corruption of

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Two Daysman Christianity. Well, the
other funny thing too is that and by

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the way, I know that you
know, in our last talk on my

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channel, we had talked about the
fact that many of these prophets that are

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major figures in the Old Testament,
major prophets that they I didn't even realize

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that. It's that they're not even
mentioned by name in the sense of absolutely

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no mention. I thought maybe there's
passing references, you know, to the

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holy prophet of so and so.
But but you're saying, Jeremiah is not

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even mentioned at all. It's not
mentioned at allow. Jeremiah has no mention

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in the Koran. That's wild because
you know, if we were looking for

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a religion that was in continuity of
prior prophets, I mean from the vantage

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point of Jews and Christians. I
mean, Isaiah, as we said,

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is called the Fifth Gospel. I
mean, it's just huge, even if

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you don't believe Jews is a messiah, like I mean, Isaiah is sixty

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six chapters. It's huge, you
know, Ezekiel huge, right, Jeremiah

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huge, I mean vast books of
the Old Testament. And by the way,

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just a little funny side note,
the name Daniel means God is my

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judge. And the l there is
would be probably what Daniel was looking for

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when he was looking for the name
that was pagan l Elohim. That doesn't

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mean the name is pagan. Right. This is a word concept fallacy because

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it's just like the word divinity.
The word divinity or deity might refer to

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God, it might refer to many
gods. It might refer to angels,

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demons, or a human being viewed
as a divine figure. It's it's a

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generic term. And so amongst the
Canaanites, the term L could be a

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reference to any kind of deity or
a class of deities. Right, So

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a lot of people make this mistake
because they think will anything with the name

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L in it, Danielle must be
so ironically his own name with the a

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pagan name. I mean, the
Bible also uses or eloch as when when

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it refers to other gods, when
it refers to other false gods, when

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it refers to them them making a
god of of objects of of Yeah.

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Different, It's a word that's a
generic term, like yeah, like the

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word deity or divinity. Yeah,
yeah, so it would be it's it's

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it's just very ignorance from Jannalist perspective
and to other people's perspective to argue that

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that would be the product the actual
name and then to deny the existence of

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Yahweh as as name of God.
And this is one of my favorite things

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by now to to go to one
of one of my favorite arguments against Islam,

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the whole absence and ignorance of the
name Yahweh in Islam. And we

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talked about this in length on your
I don't know if we're talking about it.

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Yeah, it's an amazing argument that
you found there with that, and

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especially going into the prophets whose names
are also derivatives of that, and I

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think that, I mean, I
can't see how this argument could be overcome.

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00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.319
I mean it's really it's really probably
one of the strongest that I've heard.

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So again, the fact that you, being atheists, have that argument

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has nothing to do. I mean, the argument stands on it own on

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its own right. So it's like, I mean, it's a strong argument

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no matter who says it. And
I think that any position it doesn't want

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to deal with arguments and has to
kind of fall over into these kinds of

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like, oh well he needs to
just be gotten rid of or you know,

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shut up, shut him up.
I mean, that's just showing kind

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of weakness in the position from my
vanished point. Yeah, and even when

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I brought that that whole argument about
the name Yahwe on how Islam is completely

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ignorant of the name Yahwe, I
specifically brought to that topic to him and

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challenged him on that because I knew
very well that he that is understanding of

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scripture theology and things like that is
very very poor. He was actively it

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looks like it clearly looks like he
was actively researching while I was talking and

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then trying to give me these off
way answers to my challenge. And what

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he did come up with is well, Yahweh, it did not Yahweh was

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not in in Genesis, which was
false. Yahweh is just you know,

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it's it's a name that the Hebrews
probably adopted this pagan name from the from

398
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:27.400
from from these polytheistic people, and
then gave that name to their own God.

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And later prophets actually fought against this
and wanted to, you know,

400
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:38.720
rid the religion of this corruption,
but then you know, it just kept

401
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:45.039
being used in this corrupt form.
It just doesn't weird because that's that's yeah.

402
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.680
That's usually the when people who and
that's a very low tier argument,

403
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:51.799
like you said, based on ignorance, they usually are referring to Eloheim.

404
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Usually they say the name Eloheim is
the one that is borrowed from Canaanite religion

405
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and therefore Christianity and Judaism or false
because there's this paganization just on the basis

406
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:08.359
of a word concept fallacy of the
name Elaheim. But I think he got

407
00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:12.839
mixed up or he just slipped,
oh, well, Yahwah's the same thing.

408
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.880
It's like that it's a pagan it's
but it's not. There's no equivalent

409
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:20.599
that I'm aware of it being a
pagan name. So what he did as

410
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:28.519
a result is he completely wasted the
one opportunity of actually dealing with that argument

411
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:35.519
and still presents it as if he
was actually he actually successfully argued his point

412
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.480
when he was challenged with that.
But when you look at the footage,

413
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:44.000
you can clearly see that he gives
completely nonsensical answers and it's it's just out

414
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:45.720
there, and he still doesn't engage
with it anymore because after I called him

415
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:51.440
out that that his response doesn't make
sense. That his response that Yahweh is

416
00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:54.920
a pagan name basically invalidates Islam as
well, because Islam itself, the crime

417
00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:01.039
itself, uses theophoric names which clearly
reference way including the biggest I would say

418
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:07.000
is Elijah, which truly means eli
Yah. Oh my God, is Yahweh.

419
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.799
And he didn't even get that where
he was like, Okay, well

420
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.759
why is that Yahweh? That doesn't
sound like Yawa? Okay, yeah,

421
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:20.160
it doesn't have to exactly sound like
yah wherever. Yeah, it's Eli Yahoo

422
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:22.640
Eli. Yeah. That the Yah
is already enough that that that is what

423
00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:30.359
is commonly used throughout the Bible and
throughout throughout Hebrew to reference reference Yahweh,

424
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:34.559
and that should already be enough for
him. Plus, we have two instances

425
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:40.799
of the Quran explicitly naming, explicitly
saying that John and Jesus, two figures

426
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:47.960
that were Allah announced their names beforehand, before they were born, and it

427
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.559
is Allah himself who gave them those
names. And both of those names referenced

428
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:58.759
yahweh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it is just it is just

429
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.119
well, I don't know if you
saw the when I posted you the clip

430
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:08.320
that you argued. His reply was, I never said that. And it's

431
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:12.280
like the clip has you think what
do I mean, never said it?

432
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.559
And that city wouldn't response to that, right, I mean that was the

433
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:22.199
response. I never said that.
Yeah, Freebird said Yahweh. Don't mentioned

434
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:27.360
the New Testament. It is,
yeah, go ahead if you want to

435
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.119
respond to that, so I would, I would say, off the top

436
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:34.840
of my head, it is already. First of it is it's a completely

437
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:40.599
irrelevant point because Christians don't have the
problem which Muslims have of not having the

438
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.159
previous scriptures. The Old Testament,
it is known as the Old Testiment,

439
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:52.480
is part of the Bible, so
Christians read the very book which mentions Yahweh

440
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:59.920
over six thousand times, although due
to Hebrew tradition it was it is shane

441
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:05.039
into Odonai in Hebrew and in English
for example, into a Lord in capital

442
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:10.039
letters, but that is basically Yahweh
plus plus the New Testament says Hallelujah,

443
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:15.320
for example, which is a direct, direct inclusion, a direct reference to

444
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:20.239
Yahweh. There's a lot of different
ways that you can demonstrate this. One

445
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:22.199
of those, as I pointed out, is if you look at Exodus three,

446
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:27.719
when you have the burning bush manifestation
or what we call it a theophany,

447
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.119
it's known as the a or asha
air, it's God saying I am

448
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.800
that I am, and so God
is the I am. This is also

449
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:38.880
equivalent two or a reference to Yahweh
as well, because if you go over

450
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:46.440
to Exodus twenty three, God says
the angel who will go before the messenger.

451
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:51.119
And I remember a messenger doesn't always
mean a created angel. It can

452
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:54.159
be a divine messenger, or it
can be a created messenger like Gabriel or

453
00:35:54.199 --> 00:36:00.440
whoever. But if you look at
Exodus twenty three, the same messenger or

454
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:04.800
the one that the voice that speaks
in the bush is identified as the same

455
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:08.440
messenger, who will I'll read it. Hold, I will send my messenger

456
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:13.000
before your face to keep you in
the way and in the land that I

457
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:16.039
prepared. Listen to him and obey
the voice. Do not provoke him,

458
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:20.960
for he will not pardon your sins. Only God can pardon sins by the

459
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:25.880
way, not angels. My name
Yahweh is in him, is in the

460
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.679
eye, is in the being speaking
from the bush. It's this identified as

461
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:35.599
the same being of Exodus three.
And so when you read the Gospel of

462
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:38.719
John, Jesus says, for many, in many instances, I am,

463
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:44.760
he says, I am, when
before Abraham was I am? And particularly

464
00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:49.199
if you want to focus on John
one and then John five through nine,

465
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:53.519
in those chapters, Jesus identifies himself
as the one that spoke to Moses.

466
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:59.840
So the one speaking in the bush, the one speaking and being the messenger

467
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:01.719
to go before them to either pardon
them or not pardon them. In x

468
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:07.000
it was twenty three, Jesus identifying
himself as that to the Pharisees, and

469
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.079
that's what motivates the Pharisees in John
five through nine two want to stone him

470
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:16.880
because they recognize Jesus saying, Abraham
believed in me. Abraham saw my day.

471
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:21.800
Abraham believed in me. I saw
my day and was glad. He

472
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:27.679
says Moses, right, no one
sees the Father at any time, but

473
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:30.679
he says that somebody was there speaking
to Moses. He's implying that it was

474
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:36.519
himself. He says, Moses wrote
about me. This isn't what enrages the

475
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:40.519
Pharisees, because Jesus is identifying himself
as the Angel of the Lord and as

476
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:45.079
the face that spoke to Moses,
and this makes them want to stone him.

477
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:50.280
So those passages, I think are
very clear if you're familiar with the

478
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.239
typology, and also if you go
through a lot of these passages that I

479
00:37:52.320 --> 00:38:00.880
mentioned that are called they often these
these are manifestations of distinctions in the Old

480
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:05.480
Testament that refer both to the Father, to the Angel of Yahweh or the

481
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.559
Angel of the Lord, and to
the Spirit. And they're very This is

482
00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:12.679
just a partial list. There's many, many more it got smudged over here,

483
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.880
But if you go back to the
Daniel debate, you can see all

484
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:19.480
of those that I've referenced, and
so what you get is a comprehensive,

485
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:23.800
in my view of presentation of differentiation
in Yahwah throughout the Old Testament, that

486
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:29.239
the New Testament is consistent with even
if you didn't believe in Christianity. I

487
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.920
think that modern Jews, for example
that I mentioned in the debate, the

488
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:37.079
Summer Text, the Siegel text,
the Shaeffer, they're all Jewish scholars.

489
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:43.320
They're admitting that there is quite a
bit of differentiation and distinction in the persona

490
00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:46.199
of Yahwa and the Old Testaments.
So it's not a strict Unitarianism. So

491
00:38:46.519 --> 00:38:52.519
I'm just pointing out that whether you're
a Christian who approaches the New Testament and

492
00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:55.679
the name of Yahweh and how it's
differentiated in the Old the New Testament,

493
00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:00.639
how it's applied to Christ, or
whether you're a Jew who looking at for

494
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:06.000
example, Daniel seven in the text
where we see this one like a son

495
00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:14.639
of Man, these Jewish scholars are
admitting that early Christianity is consistent with a

496
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:20.639
quote conservative Judaism of that time.
In other words, it's not a completely

497
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.800
wholesale, made up religion. In
fact, they're admitting that without believing it.

498
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:29.119
They're admitting that the Jews, the
early Christians, who were all Jews,

499
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:35.320
were attempting to interpret and be consistent
with the revelation in the tour and

500
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:38.639
the prophets that was not a strict
unitarianism. And in fact, I think

501
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:46.400
Summer's argues that the really strict unitarianism
of Judaism doesn't really come about until my

502
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:53.199
moneties. So that's also interestingly kind
of parallel with the rise of Islam and

503
00:39:53.239 --> 00:40:00.280
its strict version of unitarianism. What
it's very interesting is dealing with all of

504
00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:06.119
these these issues that are presented when
we deal with Islam and compared to Abrahamic

505
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:08.719
religion. You pointed out that that
there is a that there seems to be

506
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:15.559
this uh, this attitude, this
behavior among traditionalist Muslims, which Dana the

507
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:22.639
Kikichu seems to be a representative of, of not of not really engaging with

508
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:29.960
the argument. And there is an
older tradition of simply not asking questions,

509
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:35.360
and that goes back to such a
such a fundamental level. Indeed, I

510
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.679
quickly want to point that out.
That is not just something we say.

511
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:42.920
There is a There is a term
in Arabic bila cave, which literally means

512
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:49.960
without how, or which means without
asking how. How, Yeah, without

513
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.079
asking how? And that is a
that is a concept, a principle which

514
00:40:54.639 --> 00:41:04.079
became popularized by very early Muslim scholar
and which traditionalist Muslims, literalists, legalists

515
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:07.880
stood by for quite a long time
when they dealt with, for example,

516
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:14.320
how how allies described in the Quran? And there are references to allie having

517
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.840
body parts, but then also references
to put to a lot being just you

518
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:21.920
know, everywhere at all time,
and this and that and and and Muslims

519
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:27.760
had problems figuring out how exactly they're
supposed to make sense of these different interpretations,

520
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.400
and the the early scholars came up
with this, with this explanation or

521
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:37.000
with this coping method, which was
do not ask how, just read it,

522
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:40.280
accept it, do not ask questions. And this is an actual concept.

523
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:46.440
I said, It's called bila cave. And quite a few Muslim schools

524
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:54.199
have stood by it. Traditionalist schools
today are still very much respecting that rule.

525
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.639
Some of the go to the hunt
ball. Yeah, it's it's I

526
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:02.639
think what a prominent opinion is that
is that Ahmadamin Hahanmala actually came up with

527
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:07.960
that whole experent, but it was
his idea that this is what needs to

528
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:15.679
be done in order to preserve proper
belief and to avoid corrupting theology. So

529
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:21.639
just take whatever the text says,
do not question it, do not try

530
00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:24.920
to make sense of it, do
not compare the apparent contradictions. It's none

531
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:30.719
of your business. Just just accepted
it. That's it. That's also consistent

532
00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:36.199
with the Quran saying, with the
Quran saying for the true believers when when

533
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:40.119
they hear a last versus, they
say, I hear and I obey.

534
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:49.599
That's it. And another another instruction
by Muhammad where he says that the devil

535
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.400
comes to you and asks you questions
about alae and who created this and who

536
00:42:52.440 --> 00:43:00.599
created that. Whenever that happens,
seek refuge with Allah and sees thinking about

537
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:05.880
these things. So these are actual
Islamic instructions. Does that in that view?

538
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:10.079
Does that also apply to the hadith
or just the Qoran. Hadith are

539
00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:16.679
more complicated, much more complicated.
But I guess with the hadith what they

540
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:23.760
do is they respect the tradition of
figuring out what is and is not authentic

541
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:31.480
in the hadiths and then accepting whichever
hadith is most supported, most stable if

542
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:37.280
there are if there are differing reports
only specific instances. But yeah, so

543
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:43.559
there is, for example, the
hadith which says which I love, which

544
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:49.400
says that a lot comes down every
night at a specific time to the world,

545
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.719
Yeah, to the lowest heaven,
the heaven if the earth, and

546
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:54.719
stays there to listen to all the
prayers, and then he goes back again.

547
00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:58.559
And what do you actually think about
that? Very deeply, that doesn't

548
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:04.559
make any sense because when exactly,
how exactly what that work, considering that

549
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:10.280
it is always night somewhere and they
are just well and also, I mean,

550
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:15.360
this is kind of that point about
the shins and the above the throne.

551
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:22.159
These are spatial locations, and you
know, if we're supposed to believe

552
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:24.800
in tahed that's not possible. And
so we're sort of forced into a position

553
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:34.159
then of making analogies saying, oh, this just represents various attributes and powers,

554
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.719
right, But then when we do
that, we're now moving into the

555
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:43.960
domain of philosophical explanations and analogical predication. And if we're gonna do analogical predication.

556
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:47.079
Then we have to square that with
the text that says that there's absolutely

557
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:52.719
nothing in creation that's like a law. So you can't have both of those

558
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:54.440
things, right, you can't have
analogical predication. And for those that don't

559
00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:00.400
know, predication by analogy means predication
on the basis of like and similarity.

560
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:07.360
Right. So God is a judge
in the way that a virtuous human being

561
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.480
is a righteous judge. Right,
so he judges between cases. God judges

562
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:15.320
right, a father loves his son, God loves us in an analogous way.

563
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.239
It's an analogy between the love of
Father and a son and God's love

564
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:23.559
for us. Just this is just
throughout history of theology in the Middle Ages.

565
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:30.119
Analogical predication is just predicating on the
basis of similarity and likeness. But

566
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:36.079
you see the Koran's already said there's
no likeness at all between Allah and anything

567
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:40.039
created. But then we have all
these names which are predicates, right,

568
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:46.519
Allah the merciful, all the righteous
judge. And then we have these attribute

569
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:52.840
or these qualities that are predicated like
shin, like spatial location. So they

570
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:57.400
have to be explained. Then at
the same time as same, but there

571
00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:00.679
is no such thing as analogical predication. Oh but there is analogical predication,

572
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:06.400
and then they just sort of talk
around what that means. Right, Yeah,

573
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:08.280
and this I've had. I brought
this up to pretty much every Muslim

574
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:13.079
I've debated, except for Daniel.
Didn't bring up to Daniel, but all

575
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:15.880
the other ones I've brought it up, and it's just like, well,

576
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:19.360
it's it's not saying that all is
like creatures. It's saying that all is

577
00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:22.559
like this or that power. And
it's like, okay, well is the

578
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:27.639
power that you're talking about concept in
your head? Okay, but that's a

579
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:30.719
creature, right, The concept that
you're having your head of Allah's hand and

580
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:37.000
Allah's you know, movement, those
are created things in your view, and

581
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:40.599
you're saying that they are descriptors or
the what is as Rashid said, they

582
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:45.400
signify the divine? Well, to
signify the divine is to say that this

583
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:52.679
is a created sign symbol. That's
symbology. That's analogical predication. So how

584
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:57.360
if there's no if all is not
like any creature, is their analogical predication?

585
00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:06.119
You see, it's this is sura. It's forty forty two eleven.

586
00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:10.960
It's not long. I'll read it. It says the originator of the heavens

587
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:16.039
and earth, he has appointed for
you mates among yourselves, and has appointed

588
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:22.199
mates amongst the cattle. He multiplies
you thereby, and not as like unto

589
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:25.800
him, unto him, achieve me. Yet he is the hearer and the

590
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:30.119
seer. So those are analogies to
hear it, to see our analogous to

591
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.679
human activities. Right, So we're
saying that all I hear is in al

592
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:37.320
I sees, but not as a
man sees, not as a man hears.

593
00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:40.199
But not only that, here's the
problem. Unto him belongs the keys

594
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:45.280
of heaven on earth he comprehends,
and strange provision for him ever he will.

595
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:51.239
He has prescribed that there's oh,
excuse me out, let me go

596
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:54.760
back a little bit. It was
verse eleven. He multiplies you thereby,

597
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:58.920
but there's nothing like unto him.
Yeah, that was a text I was

598
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:01.360
looking. I mean, keep reading. But and then you're notice in the

599
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:06.400
notes, if you have the study
study Current, they talk about this discussion

600
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:08.920
of nothing being like unto him.
And I think there's another one too,

601
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:13.400
which talks in this way. Every
which one it is. But the point

602
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.119
being is that if there's nothing like
unto him. This is I think called

603
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:22.079
tan z t A and z i
h the doctrine of absolute dissimilarity between aline

604
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:27.199
creatures. If there's absolute dissimilarity,
then we can't be using these predicates like

605
00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:37.320
hearing seeing movement. Yeah, the
issue is if you just if you already

606
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:43.559
begin to analyze the things that the
Quran says and point out the obvious problem

607
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:49.320
here, you slowly approach a topic
that has been plaguing the Muslim world in

608
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:53.559
terms of theology for forever, from
the very very beginning, and as that

609
00:48:53.679 --> 00:49:00.719
is still around, and over which
branches of Muslims, schools of Islam have

610
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:07.079
been denouncing each other and calling each
other disbelievers and even sentencing each other to

611
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:10.920
death and persecuting each other. And
you're saying, specifically over this question,

612
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:15.519
and like the hand and the placement
over the throne, this is one of

613
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:19.719
the questions. So one of the
questions that caused such a huge mass and

614
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:30.760
still does is that the body parts, the attributes, the specific descriptions of

615
00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:36.400
Allah, and how you can reconcile
them with the fact that there is nothing

616
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:39.519
like Allah and how much, how
far you can think about them. And

617
00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:44.760
this is actually a very funny thing. I grew up in a very religious

618
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:52.400
household, and stuff like this was
hammered into my head all the time from

619
00:49:52.440 --> 00:50:00.199
all sides. And I always had
trouble understanding that that there is nothing a

620
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:02.400
law and I cannot even imagine it. I'm not supposed to. I cannot

621
00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:05.880
think about it. I cannot imagine
it. But then I'm also given these

622
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:10.599
conflicting descriptions of what a law does, at what time and how he will

623
00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:15.280
appear, and I'm like, okay, that I just it doesn't make sense.

624
00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:19.760
I can't reconcile it. And I
might have had this issue as simply

625
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:23.119
somebody who witnesses these these descriptions of
our law and who doesn't study further.

626
00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:28.599
But this has been an issue from
from the very beginnings of Islamic history.

627
00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:34.760
And there have been the traditionalists who
has said stuck to the whole idea that

628
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.239
you should not question, because if
you question, then you will cause problems.

629
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:43.320
And there have been the others who
are basically the evidence of specifically that

630
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:50.920
the mainstream Muslims were of the idea
that a law is up there and we

631
00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:54.800
have certain things that are described about
him, but we are not supposed to

632
00:50:55.360 --> 00:51:00.599
really think about that. Those things
may be metaphorical or literally, we do

633
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:04.920
not know. We don't think about
that. And then there are those the

634
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:10.440
mysticists who go further and to say
Allah is probably up there wherever that is,

635
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:15.639
but that's it. We're not going
to go into anything else. Everything

636
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:22.000
about him can only be metaphorical,
and we leave it at that. And

637
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:25.599
then there are others who go to
the extreme. And actually my parents were

638
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:31.639
kind of part of that, and
they were like in such an extreme form

639
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:37.119
of mysticism where they deal with all
of this mess simply by saying Allah is

640
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:42.000
not in any direction. It is
wrong to say allies up there, although

641
00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:45.280
that that was the Islamic tradition.
Always He's everywhere, all at once,

642
00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:52.639
very close to you, within you, even to certain any certain understanding,

643
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:58.960
And there is no way that you
can possibly imagine or even describe him.

644
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:01.079
The only way he can be described
as in the Quran, and we only

645
00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:06.360
understand that entirely metaphorically. So it's
just a huge mess. And all of

646
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:10.639
these perspectives are are not just perspectives
that sit at a table and think Okay,

647
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:13.920
you make sense. Yeah, you
make sense. Okay, I disagree

648
00:52:13.960 --> 00:52:15.840
with you. No, they actually
fought each other and killed each other over

649
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:22.960
these these problems, over these disagreements, and that is just one of those

650
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:27.880
issues. It's the location of a
lot the body parts and what a line

651
00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:31.079
is like. It's the whether the
Quran is an eternal part of a law

652
00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:37.320
or not, whether it came into
existence through his speech exactly as it is

653
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:42.719
or not. All of these things
were issues of major contention that Muslims truly

654
00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:46.880
sentenced each other to death and still
kind of yeah, this is odd because

655
00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:52.320
you know, in Christianity, for
example, in the fourth century, there's

656
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:58.559
a really intense debate that's kind of
analogous to the debate that occurs in the

657
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:02.280
Middle Ages between Jews and Christians and
Muslims over naming God. And this is

658
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.519
the fourth century controversy that the Kappadocians, this is Basil and the two Gregory's,

659
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:12.320
we're very important to orthodox theology.
They had a debate with a guy

660
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:15.679
named Eunomius, and a big part
of that debate was over how and in

661
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:20.239
what ways we can name and predicate
of God. And the only reason I

662
00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:24.719
bring that up is because it's interesting
that, in other words, if Islam

663
00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:34.000
is the correct next revelation, so
to speak, after Judaism or whatever they

664
00:53:34.039 --> 00:53:39.280
think Judaism, Christians is or are, then it's almost like there's no cognizance

665
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:46.519
of a prior, intense, nuanced
discussion of this very question of predicating of

666
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:52.000
God. So it's like, if
you were the new revelation, it seems

667
00:53:52.039 --> 00:53:57.960
like you would at least have an
understanding of the previous Jewish Christian discussions and

668
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:00.639
debates over naming God. Does that
make sense what I'm saying? Like,

669
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:06.000
in other words, Basil and the
Cabindocians have this debate with Eunomius, who's

670
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:10.679
the earlier unities like a Unitarians in
the sense of Islam or Judaism in the

671
00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:15.159
Middle Ages, and the debate is
over whether the names that we say of

672
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:22.800
God are univocal, equivocal, or
analogous. A univocal term is one in

673
00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:27.880
which there's an exact same meaning between
the two the two reference, right.

674
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:34.079
So for example, if we said
God's love is identical to the sense in

675
00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:39.000
which man's love, you know,
father son love, that would be univocal

676
00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:45.119
predication and Eunomius, who was the
radical Unitarian in the days of Basil and

677
00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:52.199
the Gregories. He believed in univocal
predication. Equivocal predication would be what Islam

678
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:58.400
has, which is that there's no
similarity between when I say God has justice

679
00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:02.239
towards us, there's no similarity between
that justice and you know, human law

680
00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:08.880
courts and they're created justice. Analogical
predication, which is again what the Kappa

681
00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:15.039
doceans and Christian theology wholesale adopts.
I would argue from the earliest days.

682
00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:20.639
I think you could find it in
the Old and New Testament itself. It

683
00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:24.519
continues clearly into this controversy and the
councils, which Daniel, for whatever reason,

684
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:29.239
wasn't familiar with what councils are and
what they are about what they mean.

685
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:34.400
He thinks that they're just new revelations, kind of like new new voices

686
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:37.360
the Holy Spirit or something like that. That's not what councils are. But

687
00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:42.320
the point is just that this is
already a really well known, intense debate

688
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:49.079
for centuries in Christianity. When Islam
arises the points that you're making about the

689
00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:55.800
rise of not questioning or naming or
explaining the hands of God or Allah or

690
00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:00.920
the allow seas. And here here's
don't ask what that is. It's just

691
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:05.960
ironic because this debate has already happened. If you're the continuation of the prior

692
00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:10.199
revelation, why is there no cognizance
of that whole discussion? And not only

693
00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:15.440
that, it's like, maybe I'm
not wordying this, well, do you

694
00:56:15.559 --> 00:56:19.960
understand what I'm saying? Yeah,
I think it's it's similar to the point

695
00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:23.880
we're making about the Quran seems to
not even understand what Christianity, whether you

696
00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:28.400
think it's true or not, it
doesn't understand what the trinity was. Right,

697
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:30.400
there's like a trinity in the Quran
which includes Mary. Right, it's

698
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:35.719
like they thought that that the trinity
included Mary. It doesn't, never did.

699
00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:42.000
But likewise, it's like there was
no conception of what the previous discussions

700
00:56:42.079 --> 00:56:45.880
of predication predicating of God were,
and so it's almost like bypassing that and

701
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:51.079
saying, well, Allah's nothing like
creation, and that's how it's So it's

702
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:55.119
it's all, uh, you know, equivocal predication. But it's like,

703
00:56:55.199 --> 00:57:00.559
but throughout your book there's analogical predication, So how could it be equivocal work.

704
00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:07.880
Yeah. Yeah. The reference to
the Trinity and the Karana understanding what

705
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.840
it is actually very fascinating one that
I made a video on very early on

706
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:17.239
when I started making these critical videos. It has the Koran is different understandings.

707
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:22.559
There are different interpretations of what Christians
actually believe in. But in one

708
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:28.280
of those instances, Jay is not
making this up that Karan actually does say

709
00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:35.480
so. It describes a supposed fantasy
conversation in the future after everything dies and

710
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:42.719
is resurrected between Allah and Jesus where
Allah asks, Jesus, did you say

711
00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:49.079
to the people take me and my
mother as deities beside? Allah and Jesus

712
00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:52.280
will say no, I did not. I would never say that. Where

713
00:57:52.440 --> 00:58:00.239
so it looks like the Qoran is
they're arguing against this clearly, clearly a

714
00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:06.679
great belief among Christians that that a
law is consists of three, which is

715
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:15.159
a law Jesus and Mother Mary,
and it's just it's it's it's very surprising

716
00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:21.199
that when you find that out,
that the Quran seems to not understand what

717
00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:25.519
Christians are to believe and then deals
with a completely irrelevant belief that no Christian

718
00:58:25.559 --> 00:58:30.159
actually represents. And if you bring
if you bring this problem up today,

719
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:34.480
they will try to explain that a
way by saying, well, okay,

720
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:37.639
there there are there were probably some
Christian sects in that time who did have

721
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:43.639
such a belief and this is specifically
addressing them, or or they will say

722
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:49.199
this is a reference to well,
to Christians venerating her way too much and

723
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.719
turning her into a god. But
that's clearly not the case there. Well,

724
00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:55.159
first of all, we would need
to know what's the evidence that there

725
00:58:55.320 --> 00:59:00.440
was a historic group that did deify
and put Mary as a member of the

726
00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:04.519
Trinity. I mean, I suppose
that's possible, but I've never heard of

727
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:08.960
this. But secondly, even if
that was the case, why would you

728
00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:15.559
be addressing some tiny fringe group that
had no continuity? Is basically irrelevant,

729
00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:21.000
right, I mean, wouldn't you
want to address the actual positions? That's

730
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:22.360
what That's what I'm trying to say, right, Yeah, And it's the

731
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:27.079
same point with analogical predication, like
when you want to at least address or

732
00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:30.800
explain, oh, you know,
the Christians when they had their debates with

733
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:34.039
the Eunomians, and you know what
I mean, and the and they made

734
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:38.880
their great mistake on analogical predication as
Basil and the Gregory's did who who are

735
00:59:38.920 --> 00:59:43.159
the you know, the great profits
of the early cre like, there's no

736
00:59:43.239 --> 00:59:46.320
knowledge of any of this. That's
actually, I mean, that's a very

737
00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:51.840
big problem. It's I have to
be very honest. It is when I

738
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:58.480
started getting out of Islam, and
during that whole process, I was trying

739
00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:05.440
to further understand and Christianity and Judaism. So I started reading reading the Bible,

740
01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:10.480
and I noticed that it was completely
foreig to me. And the same

741
01:00:10.519 --> 01:00:15.000
thing is so this is a problem
that Muslims in general deal with. To

742
01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:21.199
them, the Bible, Abrahamic belief
is entirely for it because all they know

743
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:27.400
about it is stuff that comes from
the Quran and from Muslim tradition. Other

744
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:30.840
than that, and that stuff,
what comes from the Quran is incredibly limited

745
01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:36.320
and very accurrent, because there is
no continuation, because the Quran is simply

746
01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:40.519
its own product, which emerged in
the seventh century. It makes references to

747
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:46.360
the Bible, to Judaism and Christianity
and to their beliefs, but it is

748
01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:53.840
completely absent from the vast knowledge that
comes with the Bible. So the Quran

749
01:00:54.480 --> 01:01:00.599
Islam claims to be the final message, claims to contin knew what was before,

750
01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:06.239
but then completely distrigards and gets rid
of all of the knowledge that is

751
01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:09.320
in the Bible, which is abundant
in comparison to the Quran, and then

752
01:01:09.679 --> 01:01:15.440
moves on with that, And then, as you said, has no understanding

753
01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:17.880
of all of the problems that are
already addressed in Christianity and Judaism, has

754
01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:22.880
no understanding of so many things mentioned
in the Bible, has no connection to

755
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:28.599
Jewish and Christian history, in theology
that was already centuries old in terms of

756
01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:35.320
Christianity, that is a huge problement. I would say it to better formulate

757
01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:38.559
what I was trying to say the
way you put it more concisely. There,

758
01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:46.519
if the Quran and Islam were the
correct, final or new revelation,

759
01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:55.559
I would expect there to be an
addressing of the specifics of where the previous

760
01:01:55.599 --> 01:02:02.199
system or systems got these things wrong. It is what we see is actually

761
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:10.679
no familiarity or consistent knowledge of very
precise, very well known doctrines theologians and

762
01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:20.360
people. I can think of one
issue, which is Christology and Jesus.

763
01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:30.280
Early Christian history has a very prominent
history of discussing it coming to a proper

764
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:37.480
understanding of the nature of Jesus,
the crucifixion and the resurrection. I mean

765
01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:40.360
that is a that's a core issue. It is the core, It is

766
01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:46.920
the fundament, It is the fundamental
the fundamentals of Christianity is Jesus comes,

767
01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:52.840
preachers, does many things, and
then very important, he is crucified,

768
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:57.679
and then he is resurrected, and
that resurrection is supposed to play great role

769
01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:02.199
in terms of what Christians believe in. Islam is supposed to come and and

770
01:03:02.679 --> 01:03:07.880
correct the Christians because they were wrong
about Jesus about how they explained his crucifixion

771
01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:12.360
and resurrection. But it doesn't do
anything about it at all. It doesn't

772
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:16.840
even address the resurrection. It just
all it says about the death of Jesus

773
01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:22.079
is and they did not crucify him, nor did they kill him, but

774
01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:28.679
it was made to it was made
to appear that way to them, and

775
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:34.239
that's it. Why wouldn't why wouldn't
the Quran address this whole giant elephant in

776
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:37.159
the room. If the Christians are
indeed wrong, if they corrupted their own

777
01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:42.880
beliefs, if Christianity is a giant
misunderstanding, as the Kuran claims, why

778
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:46.719
would it not deal with christology?
Why would it not deal with what exactly

779
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:51.400
happened after Jesus died? With the
resurrection, it doesn't do any of these

780
01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:58.360
things, and therefore leaves a huge
discussion completely unanswered. It's just as Daney

781
01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:02.039
Kikichu does says, well, just
look at it, and whatever agrees with

782
01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:04.920
Islam is true, and whatever it
doesn't just falls. That's it. Well,

783
01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:10.559
and I mean it was like all
of what you just said is bypassed

784
01:04:10.599 --> 01:04:15.119
by you. Just look and see
with your eyes. Okay, Well can

785
01:04:15.159 --> 01:04:17.599
I not? I could appeal to
the same thing. Well, when I

786
01:04:17.639 --> 01:04:21.039
look and see with my eyes,
it can it confirms my view rights.

787
01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:25.119
I mean that was really just a
non answer. But yeah, I mean

788
01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:27.840
there's this is a great point about
the resurrection. I mean, you know,

789
01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:31.199
even if you didn't believe in Christianity, you would at least want to

790
01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:35.000
understand, well, what is their
view? Why do they think that,

791
01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:39.199
you know, this is so important? What does the resurrection have to do

792
01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:43.199
with the fall of man? What
about what about all these prophecies, for

793
01:04:43.239 --> 01:04:48.639
example, in the Psalms of David
that we see as predictions and prophecies of

794
01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:53.519
from Mathiah, his descent to Hades
and his resurrection. Now maybe you don't

795
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:58.679
believe that, but it would be
better. It would make sense to understand,

796
01:04:58.800 --> 01:05:01.599
you know, like here is what
they believe, and you know this

797
01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:04.039
is why it is false, you
know, but we don't get that.

798
01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:09.239
That's what's amazing is that there's not
even an understanding of what the position is.

799
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.800
And I would I feel like if
this was the divine revelation, they

800
01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:16.639
would at least, you know,
God would understand what the errors were,

801
01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:21.599
you see, and they would be
corrected. But it doesn't even explain what

802
01:05:21.639 --> 01:05:27.320
the erroneous position is. Ifact to
misunderstands the erroneous position. Yeah, there's

803
01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:31.400
actually a very interesting corn versus I
could quickly want to go to and I

804
01:05:31.519 --> 01:05:35.960
might put it on the screen here
because I wanted to bring that up.

805
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:43.239
It's actually the very relevant to the
very point. Let me share this one

806
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:51.559
here, So Garage at the three
verse fifty five, I'm appealing to all

807
01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:55.400
the different translations here, but I'll
just take the first one. So like

808
01:05:55.559 --> 01:06:01.239
international, what it says mentioned when
Alas said, oh Jesus, indeed,

809
01:06:01.280 --> 01:06:06.519
I will take you and raise you
to myself. And purify you from those

810
01:06:06.559 --> 01:06:14.039
who disbelieve, and make those who
follow you superior to those who disbelieve until

811
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:16.559
the day of resurrection. Then to
me is your return, and I will

812
01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:21.320
judge between you concerning that in which
you used to differ. Very very interesting

813
01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:28.679
point, very interesting verse here.
So a lot told Jesus that he will

814
01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:33.920
raise him and purify him from those
who denied him, while making those who

815
01:06:34.519 --> 01:06:42.599
followed him and believed him superior until
the day of judgment. Interesting about how

816
01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:46.000
exactly does that work? So who
were those people who followed Jesus, Who

817
01:06:46.079 --> 01:06:54.119
were the people who who acknowledged him, who believed him? And which group

818
01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:58.599
exactly has been has been made superior
since then? And which group will be

819
01:06:58.639 --> 01:07:03.840
made superior from then till the day
of judgment. I'm actually baffled by this.

820
01:07:04.039 --> 01:07:09.239
What what what is their explanation of
this? I don't understand the explanation

821
01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:12.400
I can tell you will be well, this is actually a reference to the

822
01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:17.920
Muslims. It doesn't make much sense. But where do they think the raising

823
01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:23.360
is? Well, that he was
just you know, he was raised to

824
01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:27.599
heaven as a as a prophet,
and he will stay there and he will

825
01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:30.840
come back one day, and when
he comes back, he will then announce

826
01:07:30.920 --> 01:07:36.039
that all the Christians and all the
people who had these corrupt beliefs went astray,

827
01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:40.159
and that the Muslims are actually the
true believers. And then he will

828
01:07:40.159 --> 01:07:44.039
come and fight for the Muslims and
abolished the cross, and break the cross

829
01:07:44.239 --> 01:07:48.320
and and do things like that and
basically becoming Muslim Jesus. That is their

830
01:07:48.360 --> 01:07:51.639
explanation. But if you read it
on the surface, it just looks like

831
01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:57.239
it it pretty much proves of the
Christians. It also it reminds me of

832
01:07:58.119 --> 01:08:02.840
I forget exactly where it is,
but Sam Moon had referenced a there's actually

833
01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:06.280
just sections of the Gospel of John
that are kind of cribbed, you know

834
01:08:06.280 --> 01:08:12.199
what I'm talking about, Like there's
like several verses that are basically just copied

835
01:08:12.199 --> 01:08:15.960
and pasted into the Koran. Oh
yeah, yeah, which is because they

836
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:20.039
typically want to say the Gospel John
is fraudulently. It's like, wait,

837
01:08:20.239 --> 01:08:24.840
wait a minute, aren't some of
the passages actually just copied and pasted into

838
01:08:24.840 --> 01:08:27.039
the Koran? Well, those are
the ones that are not corrupted. Oh

839
01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:32.560
okay. You can also find Muslims
occasionally give some references from the Gospel of

840
01:08:32.600 --> 01:08:38.039
John in order to prove that Mohammad
was mentioned in the gospels, or that

841
01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:42.359
that Jesus prayed like a Muslim,
or things like that, which is a

842
01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:45.800
very selective, just honest approach.
They will say, they will take that.

843
01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:49.960
They will take the part, for
example, where Jesus throws himself on

844
01:08:50.039 --> 01:08:53.800
the ground and pray and praise,
and they will say, look, he

845
01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:58.479
prayed exactly like Muslims pray. But
that's not he didn't do a ritual prayer

846
01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:00.640
there. That's not the only prayer
he dat according to the Gospel. So

847
01:09:01.039 --> 01:09:04.600
that's a very very interesting Well,
I'd like that text in Deuteronomy that they

848
01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:10.000
use about I'll raise a prophet amongst
your brethren, and you know, you

849
01:09:10.000 --> 01:09:13.479
know, Christianity obviously has always seen
that as a prophecy of the Messiah.

850
01:09:14.399 --> 01:09:17.039
You find many church fathers prior to
the rise of Islam citing that as a

851
01:09:17.079 --> 01:09:21.720
text about the Messiah. Conceivably,
Jews might also cite it as a potential

852
01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:29.039
messianic text. But for the for
Muslims, that's a prediction of Muhammad.

853
01:09:29.199 --> 01:09:31.359
And I didn't really get to go
into this, but when it was mentioned

854
01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:35.600
in the debate, the argument was, well, this is about Mohammed,

855
01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:38.960
and I said, well, but
it says amongst your brethren, so I'm

856
01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:41.359
pretty sure Mohammed wasn't a Jew.
And they said, oh, but they

857
01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:45.479
can all be brethren, because everybody
is a brethren all the way back to

858
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:47.000
Abraham. And I'm like, well, but wait a minute. Genesis has

859
01:09:47.039 --> 01:09:51.800
cast out the slave woman, and
so they're they're not actually brethren, but

860
01:09:51.960 --> 01:09:55.600
in the Jewish sense, they're not
bred brethren. And that's the sense that

861
01:09:55.640 --> 01:09:59.479
we would be getting from Deuteronomi eighteen, not the chronic sense. It would

862
01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:02.760
be the Jewish sense of brethren.
What's funny is I one last point.

863
01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:05.319
The other thing that's funny about that, which is that so wait a minute.

864
01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:10.640
If everybody is a brethren, then
Edomites are brethren. But no Jew

865
01:10:10.640 --> 01:10:14.159
would call an edomiteer brothren. They're
the enemies of the Jews, but they

866
01:10:14.199 --> 01:10:16.920
have a common They have just as
much a lineage that's common as what would

867
01:10:16.960 --> 01:10:23.479
be Hagarides. It might be amazing
to you the forms of a responses that

868
01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:26.319
you can get from MS in order
to cope with that problem, which is

869
01:10:26.800 --> 01:10:30.399
when they bring it up. I
even got the response, which was a

870
01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:33.840
ridiculous one when I think about it
again and again, which is that it

871
01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:40.600
says your brethren, and that clearly
means that it's in reference to h to

872
01:10:40.680 --> 01:10:45.399
the ishmaeliance to the to the others, because that's why it says brethren instead

873
01:10:45.399 --> 01:10:49.880
of just saying from from you or
your own tribe. But no Jew is

874
01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:53.439
going to listen to an ishmael light. That's the weird part. It's like

875
01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:58.359
the rest of the rest of Deuteronomy
assumes that only a Jew is only going

876
01:10:58.399 --> 01:11:01.159
to listen to a Jew. Yeah, yeah, And that's the that's the

877
01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:05.399
whole problem. But then there comes
forth some guy in seventh century Arabia who

878
01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:12.640
is who doesn't like his own culture, at his own religious beliefs, and

879
01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:15.119
looks up to the Christians and Jews
and things. He's going to just start

880
01:11:15.119 --> 01:11:20.399
a message and claim that the same
God is speaking to him. And what's

881
01:11:20.439 --> 01:11:25.920
very interesting is I actually put a
thing together. I took out all of

882
01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:30.399
the references in the Quran to Christians
and Jews and put them in chronological order

883
01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:33.880
as far as we know. And
you can see very much that in the

884
01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:39.359
beginning, it is just this very
naive approach to the Christians and Jews of

885
01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:41.600
like, oh, yeah, you
know, they're nice, they're good,

886
01:11:41.640 --> 01:11:44.680
they have true beliefs, and you
know, we are just like them,

887
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:50.159
same source, same guys. And
then it increasingly becomes gets into disagreements with

888
01:11:50.199 --> 01:11:54.399
them, and eventually at some point
it comes to, Okay, they have

889
01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:58.079
their beliefs, you have your belief
and finally it comes to they will accept

890
01:11:58.119 --> 01:12:03.279
your beliefs or else. So it
is just a if every naive, ignorant

891
01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:11.119
approach from Muhammad to Jewish and Christian
beliefs. And and here we are dealing

892
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:16.439
with a religious group that actually claims
to be in possession of the true religion,

893
01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:21.680
yet one it is completely disconnected and
completely ignorance. And I actually want

894
01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:26.479
to ask you a question about that. So, when you read the Koran,

895
01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:32.439
when you begin studying the Quran,
as somebody who extensively studied the Bible,

896
01:12:32.840 --> 01:12:39.520
what is your what was your impression
of the Quran? Did it appear

897
01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:46.439
similar in I don't know what was
what was your impression in comparison to your

898
01:12:46.479 --> 01:12:53.319
own? My initial impression is not
really any different than where I'm at now.

899
01:12:53.439 --> 01:12:57.920
It's just kind of like I've read
more text from scholars that I think

900
01:12:58.079 --> 01:13:00.119
really back up the impression than I
have, which is, you know,

901
01:13:00.199 --> 01:13:06.039
especially like the Gabriel Side Reynolds book
where he goes through about thirteen or fifteen

902
01:13:06.079 --> 01:13:13.119
I forget how any case studies,
where he basically just compares the references in

903
01:13:13.119 --> 01:13:18.960
the Quran to the biblical context from
which they come, and then contrast and

904
01:13:19.039 --> 01:13:26.239
compares the narratives whether they make sense, whether whether where they contradict, and

905
01:13:26.279 --> 01:13:30.960
then the various Islamic explanations. So
it's a really good book from a person

906
01:13:31.039 --> 01:13:35.840
who I don't think he's a Christian
or a Muslim, He's just an academic.

907
01:13:36.439 --> 01:13:41.920
But the text shows the ways that
there have been attempts to explain,

908
01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:45.119
and it also shows what was really
helpful to me all of the different extra

909
01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:50.520
canonical sources that Islam also draws from. So I think you made a great

910
01:13:50.520 --> 01:13:53.560
point when you and I were talking
about this the other day. You know,

911
01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:56.760
when you start getting into the Hadis
is where it becomes a lot clearer

912
01:13:56.840 --> 01:14:00.279
that there's a lot of other influences
here. So it's not like you're just

913
01:14:00.439 --> 01:14:05.079
dealing with the Qoran. You're also
dealing with about a bunch of oral tradition,

914
01:14:05.239 --> 01:14:11.479
which is kind of collected and then
has to be scholarly kind of fed

915
01:14:11.560 --> 01:14:15.479
it out as to how authoritative they
are. But those also apparently rely on

916
01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:20.439
a lot of myths and narratives and
stories, as the Koran does. And

917
01:14:20.439 --> 01:14:25.880
so when I first started reading the
Koran, my first impression was it's it's

918
01:14:26.079 --> 01:14:30.920
it sounds like the Bible, but
it's like I was detecting kind of like

919
01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:39.000
stories and references that they didn't understand
that are cobbled together. And then your

920
01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:42.920
point about the Hadis, I think
further backs that up. But now I

921
01:14:42.960 --> 01:14:46.319
see, Okay, well, it's
not just the infancy narrative of Christ that

922
01:14:46.359 --> 01:14:53.439
you referenced as an extra canonical text. It's also Cave of Treasures, Life

923
01:14:53.439 --> 01:14:58.119
of Adam and Eve, proto Evangelium
of James, It's all of the Sleepers

924
01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:01.600
of Ephesus. It's all these other
stories and traditions, some of which are

925
01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:06.800
also by the way, tell Muodik. Which is odd because you know that

926
01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:14.119
that weird reference that Reynolds points out
about how the Sabbath was a punishment,

927
01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:19.399
It's like that that's absolutely totally foreign
to everything that's in prior revelation. It's

928
01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:23.680
not a punishment. It goes back
to Genesis, right, expanded it very

929
01:15:23.760 --> 01:15:28.039
quickly for it. Yeah, so
you can quickly expand it if you want

930
01:15:28.039 --> 01:15:30.680
to, or I can. I
can. No, I'll let you expand

931
01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:33.720
on it, because it was just
just a cap on my to summarize my

932
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:36.720
point there about the more that I
would get into this, the more I'm

933
01:15:36.720 --> 01:15:41.279
realizing when I wait a minute,
this is like cribbed from earlier stuff,

934
01:15:41.880 --> 01:15:46.720
cobbled together, and what's cobbled together
is not actually coherent. But then it's

935
01:15:46.760 --> 01:15:51.520
the job of the Islamic scholars to
try to make this thing work. That's

936
01:15:51.560 --> 01:15:55.520
what I get from it. Yeah. Yeah, So the point about the

937
01:15:55.520 --> 01:16:02.039
Sabbath in the Quran is people who
have looked into that or deeply can pretty

938
01:16:02.079 --> 01:16:09.680
much I guess explain that better.
But I made a note a while ago

939
01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:13.439
here on that. But the Quran
basically, when it references to Sabbath,

940
01:16:13.840 --> 01:16:23.119
doesn't recognize it as something that that
is a fundamental or essential part of of

941
01:16:23.119 --> 01:16:27.680
of biblical or Jewish belief. What
it basically says is that the Sabbath was

942
01:16:27.760 --> 01:16:34.199
just prescribed to the Jews as as
a punishment for their for their actions,

943
01:16:34.239 --> 01:16:39.640
for their transgressions and it was.
It was basically a burden placed on them

944
01:16:40.960 --> 01:16:44.600
by Allah, which is why I
only they keep it. So that is

945
01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:50.640
that is, and that's that's a
very ridiculously ignorant. Yeah, I mean

946
01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:55.800
it's very central to you know,
the entirety of the Torah goes back to

947
01:16:55.880 --> 01:17:00.680
Genesis as part of the creation narrative. So it's it's almost like to think

948
01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:06.920
that the Sabbath would be a punishment
would be to again completely misunderstand something very

949
01:17:06.920 --> 01:17:13.840
fundamental to Genesis, which is the
Seven Days and the Sabbath. And in

950
01:17:13.960 --> 01:17:21.560
the Side Reynolds book, it's pages
one oh nine, ten and eleven,

951
01:17:21.800 --> 01:17:29.199
and you've got multiple Islamic scholars and
people have tried to explain this, and

952
01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:33.239
it's just all the different explanations are
kind of they're just they're amusing because when

953
01:17:33.279 --> 01:17:40.119
you see the scholarly explanations, they're
even they're not understanding what the meaning was

954
01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:44.640
for the Jews and the Christians.
So I could understand if okay, so

955
01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:48.399
fine, you think it's wrong,
but at least understand how central this was

956
01:17:48.920 --> 01:17:54.159
to the Creation narrative and to the
entire of the Old Testament. To think

957
01:17:54.239 --> 01:17:57.600
that as many of these scholars have
said that it was a punishment from God.

958
01:17:57.680 --> 01:18:01.000
It just shows an incoherence of not
even understanding the narrative, just like

959
01:18:01.119 --> 01:18:04.760
with other things that we talked about, like the Ark of the Covenant.

960
01:18:05.520 --> 01:18:11.680
They thought that because it had the
Seraphim on top of it as a box,

961
01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:17.520
that it was a box that flew. Yeah. So here's the reference

962
01:18:17.560 --> 01:18:20.840
we're talking about. In the Quran, in chapter sixteen, verse one hundred

963
01:18:20.840 --> 01:18:25.960
and twenty four, it says,
basically, the Sabbath was only appointed for

964
01:18:26.079 --> 01:18:30.159
those who differed over it, and
indeed your Lord will judge between them on

965
01:18:30.159 --> 01:18:32.239
the day of his direction concerning that
over which they used to differ. And

966
01:18:33.239 --> 01:18:41.079
it's further than then recognized that the
Jews were basically transgressors over and over again,

967
01:18:41.560 --> 01:18:45.560
and the Sabbath was only given to
them because of there, because of

968
01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:49.399
their of their troubles, and there
their transgression. Yeah, and it's even

969
01:18:49.640 --> 01:18:55.640
you. You have this four forty
seven. You have been given the book.

970
01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:59.239
Believe in what they have brought,
what we have brought down, which

971
01:18:59.279 --> 01:19:02.640
confirms which is already with you.
Before we trans form the figures, turning

972
01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:06.319
them inside out, we curse you
as we curse the people of the Sabbath.

973
01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:15.199
Yeah, and it's I don't know, it is just sometimes I feel

974
01:19:15.239 --> 01:19:21.199
like it is very hard to put
into words the amounts of of ignorance that

975
01:19:21.279 --> 01:19:30.359
the Quran brings to the Chamber when
it talks spots Abrahamic biblical beliefs, and

976
01:19:30.439 --> 01:19:32.159
to then claim that this is the
same God, the same source, it's

977
01:19:32.199 --> 01:19:39.439
just it's just absurd. Yeah.
And again, I mean, there's a

978
01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:42.880
lot of different ways to approach this
discussion, this debate. I mean,

979
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:49.359
one another example would be if you
if you thought, for example, that

980
01:19:49.520 --> 01:19:58.840
the Revelation to Jews and Christians was
false. One thing that's prevalent throughout the

981
01:19:58.920 --> 01:20:05.279
Old and the New test is analogical
predication. So if you're gonna say that

982
01:20:05.399 --> 01:20:10.960
was all wrong and we can't do
analogical predication, which conceivably you could have

983
01:20:11.159 --> 01:20:15.840
with many Islamic schools and the denial
and the teaching of Tanzi, then you

984
01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:21.359
would need to again explain or at
least understand that this group four thousands of

985
01:20:21.439 --> 01:20:26.640
years, for centuries prior to Islam
with Christianity, you know, for sixth

986
01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:30.399
centuries, that they got this big
thing wrong. And again there's not even

987
01:20:30.439 --> 01:20:36.479
a reference to So let me put
it this way, there's very sophisticated philosophical

988
01:20:36.560 --> 01:20:42.319
debates. Okay, here's a great
book that's just on this very topic I

989
01:20:42.399 --> 01:20:46.760
recommend. And this is not from
This is from just an academic at It's

990
01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:49.600
published by Oxford. I forget where
he teaches, but it's it's a well

991
01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:55.279
known book called The Rise of Christian
Theology and the End of Ancient Metaphysics,

992
01:20:55.279 --> 01:21:00.359
and it basically traces the development of
just the idea of hypostasis, right,

993
01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:03.680
which is very important to the Trinity, all the way from the Kappadoceans to

994
01:21:03.920 --> 01:21:09.640
John Damascus and the seven hundred seven
centuries, which is contemporary. He's the

995
01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:12.960
first Christian to write about Islam,
by the way. So basically we're going

996
01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:17.640
to trace this really sophisticated development of
what hypostasis is in the Trinity and what

997
01:21:17.680 --> 01:21:24.359
it is in Christology. And it's
very nuanced, very precise. There's a

998
01:21:24.359 --> 01:21:28.560
lot of philosophical terminology, a lot
of references to Aristotle, all this kind

999
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:32.720
of stuff. And then by the
time that we get the revelations to Muhammad,

1000
01:21:33.880 --> 01:21:39.479
it's like it's like that never,
none of this ever happened, you

1001
01:21:39.560 --> 01:21:44.560
see. And again I'm stressing this
argument because if we're going to look at

1002
01:21:44.600 --> 01:21:49.479
continuity again, we would want to
know precisely where the previous tradition was wrong.

1003
01:21:50.439 --> 01:21:54.119
And I'm not trying to bank everything
on philosophy, but it's sort of

1004
01:21:54.159 --> 01:22:00.800
like, you know, Christianity had
already adopted and baptized and was okay philosophy

1005
01:22:00.880 --> 01:22:02.560
by this point. Even if you
think it's wrong, this is this is

1006
01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:08.239
not really debatable. It's pretty easy
too. It's pretty well known, right.

1007
01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:12.439
I mean John Damascus, for example, he wrote an entire book on

1008
01:22:12.920 --> 01:22:15.800
the risk. Tillian Philosophy is another
book on dialectical philosophy. I mean his

1009
01:22:16.359 --> 01:22:20.319
systematic theology in the seventh centuries,
utilizing a lot of philosophy, as we

1010
01:22:20.439 --> 01:22:25.880
said, from Cappadocians and people prior
to him, Maximistic Confessor, full of

1011
01:22:26.039 --> 01:22:28.560
a lot of philosophy in this text. It's like, if you're going to

1012
01:22:28.680 --> 01:22:31.560
deal with and reject the position.
And I'm not even saying that it's true,

1013
01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:34.439
because it's a lot of philosophy.
I'm just saying that we would need

1014
01:22:34.479 --> 01:22:40.680
to see understanding of what's being talked
about. And it's not even that it's

1015
01:22:40.720 --> 01:22:44.039
not understood. It's like there's no
knowledge of it at all. It's like

1016
01:22:44.119 --> 01:22:48.760
you're having It's like you had this
whole, long, lengthy discussion on a

1017
01:22:48.880 --> 01:22:55.039
major pressing issue. That's you're trying
to understand. Everybody has had this discussion

1018
01:22:55.079 --> 01:22:57.159
forever. He who went on and
on and on. Yeah, and you

1019
01:22:57.159 --> 01:23:02.520
have already established a system finalyzing.
This is how different theories came to proper

1020
01:23:02.600 --> 01:23:09.399
conclusions dealt with it. And then
some God comes along and entirely ignores everything

1021
01:23:09.439 --> 01:23:14.399
that has been said and just starts
a discussion from the very beginning and says,

1022
01:23:14.439 --> 01:23:18.560
I had a dream and everything he
says it don't basically basically, let

1023
01:23:18.560 --> 01:23:20.960
me ask you this question, what
you think of this? So the more

1024
01:23:21.039 --> 01:23:26.520
I hear what we're talking about in
regard to the rise of Islam, originally,

1025
01:23:26.640 --> 01:23:32.319
it's very parallel in many ways to
Mormonism, and so Mormonism basically says,

1026
01:23:32.479 --> 01:23:36.239
all of the prior revelation has some
truth in it, but it was

1027
01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:42.159
also corrupted. Ours is the new
final revelation, and you just didn't have

1028
01:23:42.239 --> 01:23:47.119
the full consistency of understanding that God
is actually three things. It's also ironic

1029
01:23:47.159 --> 01:23:51.640
too that in Mormonism God has a
the Father has a body, much like

1030
01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:58.840
what we see in the Koran with
the body of a law, but you

1031
01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:03.039
know they're they're a pro which just
now there's actually polytheism. I would argue

1032
01:24:03.039 --> 01:24:09.560
Mormonism result ultimately polytheistic. But yeah, I mean, could we conceivably just

1033
01:24:09.840 --> 01:24:15.079
counter the whole system with with Mormonism, because if the argument is, well,

1034
01:24:15.079 --> 01:24:20.720
the Qoran is preserved, well,
maybe the books of Mormon are better

1035
01:24:20.800 --> 01:24:27.199
preserved. You see. Plus,
aside from the preservation, you don't even

1036
01:24:27.239 --> 01:24:30.000
need the preservation there. You could
simply appeal to the fact that some guy

1037
01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:38.199
comes along in the middle of a
land where people are trying to figure out

1038
01:24:39.560 --> 01:24:44.960
which religious believes to hold onto.
This guy comes along and claims to receive

1039
01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:49.279
revelations, and there are people around
him who affirmed that he is indeed revelations.

1040
01:24:49.319 --> 01:24:54.000
They affirm that he is of great
character. They affirmed that he is

1041
01:24:55.000 --> 01:25:00.520
a fantastically pious guy who is entirely
selfless, and a law seems to be

1042
01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:08.199
God seems to be completely in agreement
and basically in his service and gives him

1043
01:25:08.239 --> 01:25:14.000
these these revelations, and he establishes
the truth and declares that people corrupted his

1044
01:25:14.079 --> 01:25:17.119
message. I mean, he's ultimately
doing exactly what Muhammad did. I've heard

1045
01:25:17.439 --> 01:25:24.359
a lot of people refer to him
as the American Muhammad or there there there

1046
01:25:24.399 --> 01:25:29.680
are people who say, I spoke
to a former Mormon here on this channel,

1047
01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:33.439
a woman who is a former an
ex Mormon. I think her her

1048
01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:40.239
channel is called ex Molex. But
she came on here just to to also

1049
01:25:40.399 --> 01:25:45.560
pleasantly argue that she did hear about
Islam and tom Mormonism is compared to Islam

1050
01:25:45.600 --> 01:25:51.600
before when she when she was a
Mormon, and also afterward, and she

1051
01:25:51.720 --> 01:26:00.279
was also pointing out that the way
the revelation is seen and the way the

1052
01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:05.079
way Joseph Smith, Yeah, is
my mind going all over the place.

1053
01:26:05.319 --> 01:26:10.680
The way he is. He is
trusted by Mormons in terms of his revelations,

1054
01:26:11.319 --> 01:26:14.359
even if they seem completely absurd and
out of place. It is quite

1055
01:26:14.399 --> 01:26:18.800
similar to the way Muhammad is trusted
in Islam when he makes when he brings

1056
01:26:18.840 --> 01:26:23.720
outrageously weird revelations, or when he
brings revelations that are just about him and

1057
01:26:23.760 --> 01:26:28.800
his desires. It's quite similar to
Mormonism. To the point that you bring

1058
01:26:28.920 --> 01:26:33.079
up it could be very it could
be reasonable to to go with that objection.

1059
01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:39.039
And I have seen people actually argue
against Muslims and say, why not

1060
01:26:39.079 --> 01:26:43.119
just accept Mormonism. It does the
very same thing. But then you get

1061
01:26:43.119 --> 01:26:46.640
a very hypocritical answer from them,
and the answer is just revolves around,

1062
01:26:46.720 --> 01:26:51.920
well, we know that that's not
true, because you know, he was

1063
01:26:51.960 --> 01:26:57.840
just all about his own desires and
then he just made up revelations. Well,

1064
01:26:57.840 --> 01:27:01.119
you could say the same thing about
Muhammad. Well we already know,

1065
01:27:01.279 --> 01:27:04.319
we already have the truth. Muhammad
already brought the truth. Who don't need

1066
01:27:04.359 --> 01:27:10.520
anything else? Well, that's an
I could see them just in terms of

1067
01:27:10.600 --> 01:27:15.800
epistemology making that work. Is that
they'd have to say in a strict way

1068
01:27:15.880 --> 01:27:23.119
that the Qoran was the final revelation, but I meant also additional revelations,

1069
01:27:23.199 --> 01:27:26.199
So well, what do you what
they do with that? Is they will

1070
01:27:26.239 --> 01:27:30.000
say the Koran is is the absolute
final revelation, that is the truth.

1071
01:27:30.159 --> 01:27:33.239
After that, no revelation can can
come, no profit can come. The

1072
01:27:33.319 --> 01:27:36.800
hadiths are different from that, because
the hadiths are basically just saying so of

1073
01:27:36.920 --> 01:27:43.319
Muhammad that or actions that people around
him noted, they are not considered revelation.

1074
01:27:43.680 --> 01:27:48.239
Everything that comes after him is absolutely
unacceptable, absolutely false. And that's

1075
01:27:48.279 --> 01:27:50.960
the answer that they will give you
when you when you tell them. Okay,

1076
01:27:51.199 --> 01:27:54.720
Joseph Smith, he made a lot
of a lot of claims. He

1077
01:27:54.760 --> 01:27:58.279
said, these religions in the past
work corrupted, and he's he brings the

1078
01:27:58.319 --> 01:28:02.319
truth. He So wait a minute, though, let's expand that argument and

1079
01:28:02.359 --> 01:28:09.199
say, well, but Allah apparently
allowed divine revelation to be corrupted amongst the

1080
01:28:09.279 --> 01:28:13.600
Jews and the Christians. Right,
yes, so he allowed them to be

1081
01:28:13.680 --> 01:28:17.119
deceived, apparently, and for the
revelation to be corrupted. Hence, why

1082
01:28:17.199 --> 01:28:21.439
we need the Quran? Why are
we why should we think that it's not

1083
01:28:21.600 --> 01:28:30.560
all also corrupted if Allah can allow
the revelation to be corrupted, Because because

1084
01:28:30.840 --> 01:28:35.560
because the Quran is unique in that
Allah had a plan off those previous scriptures

1085
01:28:35.600 --> 01:28:40.760
being corrupted, and the Koran is
unique in that this is the only book

1086
01:28:40.760 --> 01:28:44.760
which Allah promised nobody will ever be
able to corrupt and he will protect it

1087
01:28:44.840 --> 01:28:48.319
for well. But but my point
is that the promises are in the older

1088
01:28:48.359 --> 01:28:54.039
books too, right, So we'll
wait a minute, But you can't trust

1089
01:28:54.039 --> 01:28:57.279
those books because those books were corrupted. I know. But that's what I'm

1090
01:28:57.279 --> 01:29:01.439
saying is that the same promise of
non corruption was in the Torah, it's

1091
01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:09.760
in the Christian texts, and Allah
allowed us to be deceived, then how

1092
01:29:09.800 --> 01:29:14.600
are we not in the same epistemic
dilemma if we believe the Koran, that

1093
01:29:14.680 --> 01:29:17.119
Allah might be allowing us to be
deceived? Now you see what I'm saying.

1094
01:29:17.319 --> 01:29:19.720
Yeah, but Alla wouldn't do that
because and we already know that.

1095
01:29:20.439 --> 01:29:25.239
We already know that those script scriptures
are corrupt because when you when you read

1096
01:29:25.279 --> 01:29:29.279
them, you will see that they
are obviously uh not in alignment with pure

1097
01:29:29.479 --> 01:29:33.239
mortortheistic as like beliefs. But that's
derived from the book that's in question.

1098
01:29:33.439 --> 01:29:38.880
So yeah, well if you just
if you if you go and look at

1099
01:29:38.920 --> 01:29:41.000
those books, if you just look
at the Koran and open your eyes,

1100
01:29:41.000 --> 01:29:50.800
you will see that because you you
just look. Okay, yeah, I

1101
01:29:50.800 --> 01:29:55.520
mean that's the thing. Somebody wrote
a paper. I have to dig it

1102
01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:57.760
up. I've got it safe somewhere. It was a couple of years ago.

1103
01:29:57.800 --> 01:30:04.159
But they were arguing that Islam does
argue that Allah is a good deceiver,

1104
01:30:05.159 --> 01:30:10.159
right, and so if Allah is
a good deceiver, then how are

1105
01:30:10.199 --> 01:30:14.600
we able to trust at all any
of our reading of the Koran? Right,

1106
01:30:14.920 --> 01:30:21.079
we might potentially being be being deceived, right, And so now all

1107
01:30:21.119 --> 01:30:27.239
the propositions are potentially deceptive. And
so we're not in any better position with

1108
01:30:27.319 --> 01:30:30.840
the Quran than we are if we
are a Muslim, and we're looking at

1109
01:30:30.920 --> 01:30:36.199
the Jewish and Christian tax which also
promise that they're inspired and not that they

1110
01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:40.319
don't have errors. You see.
So in other words, let's say I'm

1111
01:30:40.319 --> 01:30:45.880
taught. Let's say I'm a fourth
century Jew or Christian. The books that

1112
01:30:45.920 --> 01:30:49.439
I have tell me that they're not
corrupted, and they're inspired and they're authoritative.

1113
01:30:50.439 --> 01:30:58.800
But from the Islamic perspective, those
books are corrupted, and I'm basically

1114
01:30:58.840 --> 01:31:03.359
deceived, right, and so I
need the Koran to fix that. But

1115
01:31:03.439 --> 01:31:08.439
Alas already a good deceiver, and
so why would I not think that the

1116
01:31:08.479 --> 01:31:12.399
New Revelation also is potentially deceptive.
You can't just say, well because it

1117
01:31:12.479 --> 01:31:15.079
says it's not because the old books
said they were not. But God was

1118
01:31:15.159 --> 01:31:18.560
also deceptive back then, you see. Does that make sense? Yeah?

1119
01:31:18.680 --> 01:31:23.439
Yeah, And there is a very
funny, a very nice thing that you

1120
01:31:23.439 --> 01:31:30.119
can add to that which I love
about Jesus and his crucifixion, some flavor

1121
01:31:30.159 --> 01:31:36.720
you can add to specifically that which
is so ala as a deceiver. He

1122
01:31:36.720 --> 01:31:41.760
he says that he is the best
of deceivers. Think about the what the

1123
01:31:41.840 --> 01:31:46.039
Quran says about Jesus. Jesus was
he was sent down with a message,

1124
01:31:46.279 --> 01:31:53.600
with a scripture. He was They
tried to they denied him, and they

1125
01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:58.000
tried to crucify him. They tried
to kill him, but they did not

1126
01:31:58.159 --> 01:32:00.760
manage to kill him, not managed
to crucify him. It was only made

1127
01:32:01.199 --> 01:32:04.800
to appear in that way. Okay, Well, what happened as a result

1128
01:32:04.800 --> 01:32:11.760
of that, as a result was
specifically that a major religion came into existence,

1129
01:32:11.800 --> 01:32:15.439
that is, according to Islam,
a complete corruption of the truth.

1130
01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:23.079
And why did it come into existence? Because the people believed that Jesus on

1131
01:32:23.119 --> 01:32:29.720
that day was crucified and they saw
him, I guess rise, which is

1132
01:32:29.800 --> 01:32:33.479
a deception. It was made to
appear to them. So and that appearance,

1133
01:32:33.720 --> 01:32:36.960
that deception, that illusion, whatever
you want to call it, brought

1134
01:32:38.039 --> 01:32:41.880
forth the largest religion in the world, which happens to be a completely corrupt

1135
01:32:41.880 --> 01:32:45.079
religion. Is this a last plan? Did a lot did a lot of

1136
01:32:45.159 --> 01:32:54.760
establish a plan for Jesus where his
death was basically a deception which brought forth

1137
01:32:54.840 --> 01:32:59.000
the largest false religion in the world. So did a lot create this false

1138
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:01.680
religion on purpose? By by creating
this deception? They would say, yeah,

1139
01:33:01.760 --> 01:33:05.680
right, I mean if you're a
you're a hard determinist, right yeah,

1140
01:33:05.760 --> 01:33:12.840
And why would you blame the Christians? Then? See exactly why would

1141
01:33:12.840 --> 01:33:15.600
you blame the Christians them? Because
it looks like Allah made it, a

1142
01:33:15.640 --> 01:33:18.279
lot created the deception and they fell
for it. So it's not there is

1143
01:33:18.319 --> 01:33:26.239
it their fault? If Allow is
the best of deceivers? Yeah, it's

1144
01:33:26.279 --> 01:33:32.720
just maybe this plays into the pathology
of that religion right to where well,

1145
01:33:32.760 --> 01:33:39.199
if Allah is the best of deceivers, is it possible that Muslims then welcome

1146
01:33:39.279 --> 01:33:44.720
being deceptive? Maybe? I mean, I'm at what do you think is

1147
01:33:44.760 --> 01:33:54.119
do you think that I want to
think deeply like that, you know people,

1148
01:33:54.279 --> 01:33:57.720
do you think the takea objection?
Is that overused or is that?

1149
01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:00.880
I think I think Okay, That's
why I'm thinking about this right now.

1150
01:34:00.880 --> 01:34:05.880
But here's the issue. There is
a lot of there's a lot of overuse

1151
01:34:05.960 --> 01:34:12.079
of that whole Takia accusation of saying
whenever Muslims say something that doesn't seem to

1152
01:34:12.079 --> 01:34:15.399
be true or that doesn't seem to
be consistent some people might say they're just

1153
01:34:15.560 --> 01:34:20.680
they're just doing taqia. I would
say that that is largely overused. Muslims

1154
01:34:20.760 --> 01:34:26.680
do not learn actively to lie and
to deceive and to you know, hide

1155
01:34:26.720 --> 01:34:29.680
the truth and all of that.
And they don't learn about this concept,

1156
01:34:30.479 --> 01:34:34.680
this idea called takia, and that
they're supposed to practice this. The problem

1157
01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:40.079
is the problem with that is and
there is a lot of nuance to this,

1158
01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:46.560
although takia is usually a wrong overused
accusation. Although Muslims don't actively learn

1159
01:34:46.640 --> 01:34:59.319
to lie explicitly, Muslims do have
a habit quite often of concealing uncomfortable truths

1160
01:34:59.439 --> 01:35:05.119
or conceal certain things which they also
lie to themselves about, and simply go

1161
01:35:05.239 --> 01:35:11.079
to whatever makes it easier to convince
the other side that Islam is true.

1162
01:35:11.800 --> 01:35:15.359
And and you learn this whole concept, which is which is that religion is

1163
01:35:15.399 --> 01:35:19.880
supposed to be made easy. So
when you try to preach Islam to somebody,

1164
01:35:20.840 --> 01:35:28.800
make it easy. Forget about the
complexities. You can cover things that

1165
01:35:28.840 --> 01:35:32.680
don't need to be mentioned, you
can ignore questions that are more Yeah,

1166
01:35:32.760 --> 01:35:36.279
just focus on one whatever makes it
easier for the other person to accept Islam.

1167
01:35:36.479 --> 01:35:41.840
That's it. So while the accusations
of the Kei are largely wrong and

1168
01:35:41.920 --> 01:35:45.039
overused. There is an element of
doing whatever it takes just to make the

1169
01:35:45.039 --> 01:35:50.800
other person accept that Islam is true, and that might include there is a

1170
01:35:50.800 --> 01:35:56.720
there is an issue here that might
include occasionally using deliberate deception when you deal

1171
01:35:56.760 --> 01:36:01.239
with people that you consider enemies of
Islam, like myself, where they say

1172
01:36:01.520 --> 01:36:05.800
it they are basically at war with
me and with enemies of Islam, and

1173
01:36:05.920 --> 01:36:10.319
in war, deception is allowed,
as Muhammad said, it is, it

1174
01:36:10.359 --> 01:36:13.560
is, it is to be used, so that is part of that as

1175
01:36:13.560 --> 01:36:17.039
well. So there's not like any
hadith that says, you know, you

1176
01:36:17.159 --> 01:36:25.800
may deceive your opponent explicitly. No, there is nothing that says you may

1177
01:36:26.039 --> 01:36:30.840
or you should lie to them.
All there is is that there is there

1178
01:36:30.920 --> 01:36:35.119
is implied, There are words from
Muhammed that deception is part of war,

1179
01:36:38.319 --> 01:36:43.640
and there are just instructions on making
it making it easier for people to understand

1180
01:36:43.680 --> 01:36:46.119
Aslam. So that's that's pretty much
it. Interestingly, that's good that that

1181
01:36:46.520 --> 01:36:53.640
thing that's overused, Like you said, yeah, I want to point at

1182
01:36:53.640 --> 01:36:59.279
this thing here to simply revisit the
whole issue of ignorance of pre Islamic beliefs.

1183
01:37:00.079 --> 01:37:04.000
So here is a whole narrative that
is adopted from from later Christian ideas

1184
01:37:04.479 --> 01:37:11.000
where Jesus speaks as a as a
baby when he is born and tells people

1185
01:37:11.000 --> 01:37:15.680
that he is Jesus. But what's
very important here that narrative is in grudge.

1186
01:37:15.720 --> 01:37:20.199
At the nineteen verse thirty, it
says Jesus said, indeed, I

1187
01:37:20.239 --> 01:37:25.399
am the servant of Allah. He
has given me the scripture and made me

1188
01:37:25.479 --> 01:37:33.680
a prophet. So I hear you
already chuckling about this about what it says

1189
01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:38.720
here. But yeah, so that
the understanding here is that Allah gave Jesus

1190
01:37:38.760 --> 01:37:42.560
a scripture and made him a prophet. And what's very interesting is that Jesus

1191
01:37:42.600 --> 01:37:46.439
says this as a baby already he
is what Jesus is saying this as a

1192
01:37:46.479 --> 01:37:49.600
baby here, So he's speaking as
a baby and he's seeing I am a

1193
01:37:49.640 --> 01:37:54.840
servant of Allah. Allah gave me
a scripture and made me a prophet.

1194
01:37:56.960 --> 01:38:00.720
I have a note to saying that
this is from that Syriac infancy narrative.

1195
01:38:00.840 --> 01:38:06.039
Right, yeah, yeah, and
what what what when when that's brought up,

1196
01:38:06.039 --> 01:38:09.880
I've not hurting anybody addressed, Like, is that ever addressed, like

1197
01:38:11.039 --> 01:38:16.199
aren't these from prior non canonical or
cutemographical texts? Like is that ever addressed?

1198
01:38:16.600 --> 01:38:27.119
The answers you get usually are that
that people did have certain truths and

1199
01:38:27.239 --> 01:38:31.439
falsehoods that survived throughout the centuries,
and some of these stories that came they

1200
01:38:31.439 --> 01:38:35.199
don't have a prominent mining that these
are older. Yeah, yeah, you

1201
01:38:35.199 --> 01:38:40.319
know they yeah they So they will
just explain that away is some truth and

1202
01:38:40.359 --> 01:38:45.119
false through the centuries. Same thing
with with For example, there is an

1203
01:38:45.119 --> 01:38:54.279
issue with chapter verse chapter five,
first thirty three, I believe, which

1204
01:38:54.359 --> 01:38:59.159
is the prominent. First off,
whoever kills one person has killed all men

1205
01:38:59.279 --> 01:39:05.399
call all humanity. Okay, that's
chapter five, verse thirty two. It

1206
01:39:05.520 --> 01:39:13.079
says there we decrete upon the children
of Israel that whoever kills a soul,

1207
01:39:13.239 --> 01:39:15.239
unless for his soul or for corruption
in the land, it is as if

1208
01:39:15.319 --> 01:39:19.640
he had slain all mankind, and
whoever saves one, it is as if

1209
01:39:19.680 --> 01:39:26.600
he had saved all mankind entirely.
And Muslims will often cite only part of

1210
01:39:26.600 --> 01:39:30.520
this and will just say, whoever
kills somebody has killed all mankind. Whoever

1211
01:39:30.600 --> 01:39:35.920
saves someone has saved all mankind.
The problem with this is, as it

1212
01:39:35.960 --> 01:39:40.279
points out, we decrete upon the
children of Israel. This is something that

1213
01:39:40.319 --> 01:39:46.760
was apparently taken from Jews. And
the problem with this is this stuff here,

1214
01:39:46.800 --> 01:39:49.880
whoever kills a soul unless for his
soul, it's as if he had

1215
01:39:49.960 --> 01:39:56.159
killed all mankind. And then the
same with saving is something that directly comes

1216
01:39:56.159 --> 01:40:00.079
from the town would Now I've heard
rabbinical sources said, yeah, it is

1217
01:40:00.119 --> 01:40:08.920
directly in the Talmud. The Talmud
deals with this issue. It explains something

1218
01:40:08.960 --> 01:40:15.359
from the Torah and then says what
you can understand so that the rabbi says

1219
01:40:15.399 --> 01:40:19.239
what you can from understand from that
is that if one killing one Jew is

1220
01:40:19.279 --> 01:40:24.439
like killing all of mankind and saving
bad Jews like saving all of So that

1221
01:40:24.439 --> 01:40:27.600
that is an idea that is that
is that was presented by the rabbis in

1222
01:40:27.640 --> 01:40:30.520
the Talmud. It is not something
that was revealed or that was found in

1223
01:40:30.560 --> 01:40:35.079
the Torah or anything like that.
It is directly a talmudic, rabbinic explanation

1224
01:40:35.800 --> 01:40:41.359
of the Talmud. But here it
is in the Quran, directly presented as

1225
01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:45.239
from God, as if it were
from a law reviews. Yeah, I

1226
01:40:45.239 --> 01:40:49.039
didn't know about that one either.
So and Reynolds mentioned a couple of those,

1227
01:40:49.079 --> 01:40:53.239
but I don't remember off top of
my head which one he said was

1228
01:40:53.680 --> 01:40:57.319
Talmudic in terms of the source.
So that would be that would be one

1229
01:40:57.359 --> 01:41:00.520
of them. That's interesting. Yeah, it was also important note here is

1230
01:41:00.520 --> 01:41:02.720
that this is, according to the
Quran, only a law for the Jews.

1231
01:41:02.960 --> 01:41:08.960
So, and here's the next verse, just to make it very nice.

1232
01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:13.159
Indeed, the penalty for those who
wage war against the Lite is messenger

1233
01:41:13.239 --> 01:41:15.479
and strive up on earth to cause
corruption is none but that they should be

1234
01:41:15.560 --> 01:41:19.560
killed or crucified, or that their
hands and feet be cut off from opposite

1235
01:41:19.600 --> 01:41:25.439
sides, or that they should be
exiled from the land. That is for

1236
01:41:25.479 --> 01:41:28.399
them a disgrace in this world,
and for them here in the hereafter is

1237
01:41:28.439 --> 01:41:32.079
a great punishment. This is a
horrible So is this why you see some

1238
01:41:32.159 --> 01:41:36.680
of the radical islonic groups doing this
to people at times, including a lie

1239
01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:42.640
crucifixion. Yeah, and including there
were reports in Somalia, for example,

1240
01:41:42.680 --> 01:41:47.239
in the recent civil wars where they
were referencing this verse and actually cutting off

1241
01:41:47.279 --> 01:41:56.479
the hands and feet from opposite sides
of rebels. Pretty messed up. Yeah,

1242
01:41:56.560 --> 01:42:00.920
there's a lot. Now, Is
that that one is that uh from

1243
01:42:00.920 --> 01:42:06.039
a prior source or is that unique
to the Koran? That part about cutting

1244
01:42:06.039 --> 01:42:11.479
off stuff that is not that that
is that is from the Koran, But

1245
01:42:11.560 --> 01:42:15.319
that is just the first after the
one that has taken from the Jews,

1246
01:42:15.359 --> 01:42:18.039
from the Talament. So what happened, what probably happened there. The theory

1247
01:42:18.119 --> 01:42:24.880
is what probably happened there why the
Quran suddenly has a talmudic teaching there is

1248
01:42:24.920 --> 01:42:28.199
if it was real revealed from a
law, is that Mohammad was in Medina,

1249
01:42:28.359 --> 01:42:32.560
Medina had a lot of Jews,
learned Jews, Jews interact with him

1250
01:42:32.640 --> 01:42:35.880
and tell him things. And one
of the prominent ideas and teachings they have

1251
01:42:36.119 --> 01:42:43.520
is specifically that Mohammad hears it and
probably thinks oh Allah revealed this to them.

1252
01:42:43.560 --> 01:42:46.199
So it's then included as a revelation
from a law. But and that's

1253
01:42:46.199 --> 01:42:50.520
just a big oopsie, you know. Yeah, it looks like a lot

1254
01:42:50.560 --> 01:42:57.520
of the narratives are maybe things that
were heard, yeah and misunderstood. Yeah,

1255
01:42:58.000 --> 01:43:03.079
like the Trinity Mary stuff that sounds
like something that was hurt. Oh

1256
01:43:03.119 --> 01:43:08.800
they think this you know there was
recorded. Yeah. Also I mentioned in

1257
01:43:08.800 --> 01:43:13.000
Grudge Up with nine, verse thirty, there is this you say Ezra is

1258
01:43:13.039 --> 01:43:17.359
the son off al Lah and Christians
say the Messias of a la know you

1259
01:43:18.079 --> 01:43:24.319
believe that of God and worships Ezra. But it's probably something that he heard.

1260
01:43:24.359 --> 01:43:27.399
I mean, maybe somebody joked I
don't know, somebody was joking about

1261
01:43:27.399 --> 01:43:30.680
that around hi when he took it
seriously and included maybe somebody was trolling him

1262
01:43:30.800 --> 01:43:34.399
and like told him, yeah,
we think Ezra right, and he wrote

1263
01:43:34.399 --> 01:43:40.640
that down like it was an ancient
trolling. Yeah, yeah, what what's

1264
01:43:41.039 --> 01:43:44.680
have you heard of? The of
the idea that Alexander the Greatest? Also

1265
01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:50.520
in the Qoran, that's a very
important thing to look into that there is

1266
01:43:50.560 --> 01:43:57.560
a character named though Karnaine and the
same chapter that also mentions to the people

1267
01:43:57.760 --> 01:44:01.279
the Sleepers seventh Sleepers, and it
talks about a figure named to a car

1268
01:44:01.359 --> 01:44:08.359
Nain who is a servant of a
lie and who was given all kinds of

1269
01:44:08.359 --> 01:44:13.279
power by Allah and went to the
very far ends of the world. And

1270
01:44:13.439 --> 01:44:16.439
the issue with that character is nobody
knows who that character is. The issue

1271
01:44:16.439 --> 01:44:21.039
with that character is early Islamic scholars
were very clear that though car name is

1272
01:44:21.079 --> 01:44:26.159
Alexander the Great, but over time, when people learned who else and the

1273
01:44:26.159 --> 01:44:31.680
Great actually is. They began to
to deny that, and many Muslims today

1274
01:44:31.720 --> 01:44:38.199
will still deny that because the Quran
basically depicts Alexander the Great there as a

1275
01:44:38.279 --> 01:44:45.239
servant of Allah. Yeah yeah,
yeah, wow. And what happens there

1276
01:44:45.279 --> 01:44:47.720
going into the hadith is people come, apparently Jews are coming and asking him

1277
01:44:47.720 --> 01:44:55.319
about this, and he then goes
away and comes back many days later with

1278
01:44:55.359 --> 01:45:01.840
these revelations. But the revelations get
it all wrong the Islam. Yeah,

1279
01:45:01.920 --> 01:45:08.000
maybe maybe he heard, you know, the texts in Daniel or Maccabee's which

1280
01:45:08.039 --> 01:45:15.319
referenced that time period of Alexander.
Yeah, and maybe he thought that that

1281
01:45:15.359 --> 01:45:19.279
meant that Alexander was a servant of
God, which is odd because that's not

1282
01:45:19.359 --> 01:45:24.840
at all what Maccabee says. Like
it, Maccabee's doesn't really comment a lot

1283
01:45:24.880 --> 01:45:30.159
on Alexander. It focuses on Antiochus
of the Fan. He's right, who's

1284
01:45:30.199 --> 01:45:33.479
the one that defiles the temple.
I'm just trying to think, like why

1285
01:45:33.520 --> 01:45:41.640
he would have Maybe there's an information
off so historically seen. Apparently the early

1286
01:45:41.760 --> 01:45:48.000
Jews had a developed an understanding off
of Alexander the Greage where they for a

1287
01:45:48.039 --> 01:45:56.319
while referred to him as somebody who
was given given power by God or was

1288
01:45:56.399 --> 01:46:02.119
favored by God, because they had
an understanding that people who become very powerful

1289
01:46:02.159 --> 01:46:06.840
and we have correct earth, they
yeah, they are given divine providence.

1290
01:46:06.880 --> 01:46:12.319
That they so they began referring to
him as somebody who was gifted by God.

1291
01:46:12.560 --> 01:46:15.000
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that
he's heard God like that. That's

1292
01:46:15.039 --> 01:46:19.439
the issue. Nomad probably misunderstood that
so exactly. I mean, it says

1293
01:46:19.439 --> 01:46:26.479
the same thing about Nebuchadneezer that like, when Daniel's talking about Nebuchadnezer, he

1294
01:46:26.560 --> 01:46:31.800
says that divine providence raised up Nebuchadneezer. Doesn't mean that Nebukadneezer was a servant

1295
01:46:31.800 --> 01:46:34.439
of God. In fact, he
was a blasphemer and he in the Book

1296
01:46:34.479 --> 01:46:40.560
of Daniel, he's punished because he's
a blasphemer. Yeah. So yeah,

1297
01:46:40.560 --> 01:46:43.880
that's fascinating. Was going. I
was gonna look and see how because I

1298
01:46:43.920 --> 01:46:49.039
know mccabee's mentions. I can't remember
if it mentions him explicitly or if it

1299
01:46:49.079 --> 01:46:54.920
just kind of mentions them in passing
in the first chapter of Maccabees. But

1300
01:46:55.079 --> 01:47:00.000
and he's talking about that period.
Yeah, I don't. I don't think

1301
01:47:00.039 --> 01:47:04.359
he mentions him by name. Thanks
a serious said, can you look at

1302
01:47:04.399 --> 01:47:06.960
the arrows of the Trinity and the
ground we did that, Thank you so

1303
01:47:08.039 --> 01:47:10.840
much. No, it does,
excuse me. So the first the very

1304
01:47:10.840 --> 01:47:16.079
beginning of McCabe's doesn't mention Alexander as
king of Greeks. He went to the

1305
01:47:16.199 --> 01:47:24.800
ends of the earth, he spoiled, He spoiled the earth like army spoils.

1306
01:47:26.159 --> 01:47:31.439
He fell sick and died, doesn't
reference anything about it just states it

1307
01:47:31.520 --> 01:47:35.119
kind of like a history of Alexander. And then it moves into talking about

1308
01:47:35.800 --> 01:47:43.199
Antiochus being a horrible blasphemer because he
was one of the four generals that took

1309
01:47:43.199 --> 01:47:46.359
over after Alexander passed away. Alexander
ran for twelve years and then he died.

1310
01:47:46.439 --> 01:47:49.239
His servants took over and ruled in
his place. One of those was

1311
01:47:49.279 --> 01:47:56.680
Antiochus. So it doesn't there's never
a positive mention in maccabe's, just as

1312
01:47:56.720 --> 01:48:02.079
just as accuracy. I will quickly
put this here on the screen, just

1313
01:48:02.119 --> 01:48:08.800
because it's so funny. So here's
the chronic narrative. One third Carnain.

1314
01:48:08.880 --> 01:48:13.800
It says in eighteen eighty three and
they ask you about the car name,

1315
01:48:14.079 --> 01:48:19.000
and Bill Carnain literally means the two
horned one and the two horned one,

1316
01:48:19.239 --> 01:48:23.880
yeah, two horned one. Oh, that that might actually be a reference

1317
01:48:23.880 --> 01:48:30.359
to Daniel. Well, the thing
is so, if you look at this,

1318
01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:33.439
if you look at the narrative here, it is very much, very

1319
01:48:33.520 --> 01:48:43.159
much copies ancient myths, the legends
about Alexander. It basically copies the Alexander

1320
01:48:43.920 --> 01:48:49.199
romance legends. And Alexander the Great
was known as the one who wears a

1321
01:48:49.279 --> 01:48:54.840
helmet with two horns. And there
were coins that were that existed in Arabia

1322
01:48:54.880 --> 01:48:58.600
as well at the time where Alexander
degreeded to pick there somebody with two horns.

1323
01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:01.239
But it says here I will recite
to you about him a report.

1324
01:49:01.760 --> 01:49:04.840
Indeed, we established him upon the
earth, and we gave him from everything

1325
01:49:04.880 --> 01:49:09.680
away. So he followed away until
when he reached the setting of the sun,

1326
01:49:10.319 --> 01:49:14.239
he found it setting in a body
of dark water. And he found

1327
01:49:14.239 --> 01:49:19.119
near at a people, and we
said, all the wilkarnein either you punished

1328
01:49:19.159 --> 01:49:24.359
him or else adopted them a way
of goodness. Here is a very interesting

1329
01:49:24.399 --> 01:49:30.159
detail. He found the sun setting
in a pool of dark water. He

1330
01:49:30.279 --> 01:49:32.520
said, as for one who wrongs, we will punish him. Then he

1331
01:49:32.560 --> 01:49:35.399
will be returned to his lord,
and he will be punished with a terrible

1332
01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:39.680
punishment. But as for one who
believes and does righteousness, he will have

1333
01:49:39.720 --> 01:49:43.640
a reward. Then he followed another
way. When he came to the rising

1334
01:49:43.680 --> 01:49:45.640
of the sun, he found it
rising on a people from whom we had

1335
01:49:45.680 --> 01:49:49.239
not made it against any shield.
And then he builds for them a wall

1336
01:49:49.560 --> 01:49:56.359
to protect them. But this is
basically goes back to all pleasures about Alexander

1337
01:49:56.359 --> 01:50:00.680
the Grade, who allegedly traveled to
the very very east, very west,

1338
01:50:00.920 --> 01:50:06.560
and who built a giant wall to
protect these people from these invaders. And

1339
01:50:08.239 --> 01:50:12.840
yeah, but you'll find this interesting
because if you look at Daniel eight,

1340
01:50:13.720 --> 01:50:16.840
like Versus five to fourteen, a
lot of people think that it's whether you

1341
01:50:16.840 --> 01:50:21.840
think it's a prophecy or whether it
was written later. It's talking about Alexander,

1342
01:50:21.880 --> 01:50:27.800
and it's calling him the horn the
horned one, the goat. It

1343
01:50:27.840 --> 01:50:30.319
calls him the male goat. I
think here and yeah, in verse five,

1344
01:50:30.399 --> 01:50:35.520
So what I'm saying what's funny about
that is that the description is that

1345
01:50:35.560 --> 01:50:41.159
he's an evil pagan ruler in Daniel, but he's called the horned goat and

1346
01:50:41.199 --> 01:50:44.399
the horned one. Yeah, and
he's liking to a goat, which in

1347
01:50:44.439 --> 01:50:48.279
scripture goats are typically referred to as
the wicked sheeps and goats. So I'm

1348
01:50:48.319 --> 01:50:53.920
just pointing out that it's the chronic
narrative. If if he heard this story

1349
01:50:54.000 --> 01:50:58.479
from Jews, or if he'd heard
Daniel and thought maybe that was about Alexander,

1350
01:50:59.159 --> 01:51:03.000
maybe maybe maybe that could be how
it deb But what's funny is that

1351
01:51:03.680 --> 01:51:09.800
in Daniel he's a wicked person,
and that's where the issue is. He

1352
01:51:09.960 --> 01:51:13.920
just hears bits of knowledge, probably
from from the Jews, from others,

1353
01:51:13.960 --> 01:51:16.520
and then he thinks, oh,
I have a revelation from a law.

1354
01:51:17.479 --> 01:51:23.039
A law says so and so and
so and But you're saying that he in

1355
01:51:23.079 --> 01:51:28.600
this passage about this figure here,
that it's actually calling him a righteous person,

1356
01:51:28.680 --> 01:51:30.640
right, Yeah, So it's it's
it's literally, according to the verse,

1357
01:51:30.680 --> 01:51:34.920
it's a law communicating with him and
making him a judge over people,

1358
01:51:34.960 --> 01:51:42.000
whether they are righteous or or not. And you're saying that. Initially the

1359
01:51:42.199 --> 01:51:46.359
Muslim scholars have said it's it's Alexander, but now they don't, or there's

1360
01:51:46.399 --> 01:51:50.600
debate. Some still say that it's
Alexander, but most most of them nowadays

1361
01:51:50.600 --> 01:51:56.079
deny it, but it's yeah,
it's in early Islamic history, the intertutions.

1362
01:51:56.279 --> 01:51:59.800
What's very clear that this is a
reference to Alexander the Great. Yes,

1363
01:52:00.039 --> 01:52:02.279
there's another example of just something being
misunderstood. Yeah, yeah, So

1364
01:52:02.279 --> 01:52:05.640
what would now do they say that
it's just some unknown ruler or something.

1365
01:52:06.000 --> 01:52:11.600
Yeah, most likely they usually say
that it's it's that that we don't know

1366
01:52:11.640 --> 01:52:15.880
who it is. But that's also
very funny because there's just some guy mentioned

1367
01:52:15.920 --> 01:52:18.239
here, a little car name.
You have no idea who it is,

1368
01:52:20.239 --> 01:52:27.680
that's it. Yeah. Yeah.
Plus he also builds a wall here that

1369
01:52:27.800 --> 01:52:34.600
is supposed to prevent Gagan Magogue also
a narrative taken from the Bible and previous

1370
01:52:34.640 --> 01:52:41.239
beliefs. Well, that's interesting because
that's Ezekiel. But there's no ravene or

1371
01:52:41.279 --> 01:52:45.039
explanation to what Ezigel's talking about.
But here here it's like he builds a

1372
01:52:45.079 --> 01:52:50.039
wall into Gagan Magogue arties. These
these beings, these corruptors, he's corruption,

1373
01:52:50.640 --> 01:52:55.159
and they are behind that wall,
and they are to this day still

1374
01:52:55.159 --> 01:52:59.319
trying to get through that wall.
And one day they will make a hole

1375
01:52:59.399 --> 01:53:02.680
into the wall and they will invade
the whole world and space. Now I'm

1376
01:53:02.680 --> 01:53:06.720
getting this has blown my mind.
What is this? Sounds like the plot

1377
01:53:06.760 --> 01:53:13.960
of what was the Avengers were the
making up. They're making a hole in

1378
01:53:14.000 --> 01:53:15.399
the sky and the remember they come
through the portal? Is that what we're

1379
01:53:15.399 --> 01:53:19.399
talking about? Something like that I've
I've never watched you have in years?

1380
01:53:19.720 --> 01:53:24.720
Is actually, but what does this
mean? This hole in the wall and

1381
01:53:24.760 --> 01:53:32.159
they're trying to get through to this
day, which I think there's a I

1382
01:53:32.159 --> 01:53:35.880
don't want to explain it myself.
I would like to let Muhammad explain it

1383
01:53:35.960 --> 01:53:42.600
to you. I was just gonna
hot about that. Well, it's it's

1384
01:53:42.600 --> 01:53:45.439
also here in the Qoran. It's
it is, but it is more any

1385
01:53:45.439 --> 01:53:50.239
more detail described in the hoodie.
So here it is. It mentions they

1386
01:53:50.279 --> 01:53:54.560
said, although we're kind of indeed, Gog and Magog are corruptors in the

1387
01:53:54.680 --> 01:53:58.079
land, So may we assign for
you and expenditure that you may make a

1388
01:53:58.279 --> 01:54:03.399
barrier between them and us? And
he does that. He builds a huge

1389
01:54:03.399 --> 01:54:06.680
wall, and it says so they
were unable to pass over it, No

1390
01:54:06.840 --> 01:54:12.640
were they are able to penetrate it. And then it further says, but

1391
01:54:12.800 --> 01:54:20.159
one day will be blown. It
will assemble them in an assembly. Yeah,

1392
01:54:20.199 --> 01:54:23.359
one day they will get over.
I guess, like, is this

1393
01:54:23.399 --> 01:54:29.880
a literal wall or is it like
some spiritual reality where they cat I'm going

1394
01:54:29.920 --> 01:54:39.119
to now invoke Muhammad here and here
is Muhammad. According to the Hadis,

1395
01:54:39.960 --> 01:54:44.640
it says the prophet got up from
his sleep with a flushed red face and

1396
01:54:44.720 --> 01:54:46.760
said, none has the right to
be worshiped, but allah, woe to

1397
01:54:46.840 --> 01:54:53.640
the Arabs from the great evil that
is nearly approaching them. Today a gap

1398
01:54:53.680 --> 01:54:57.760
has been made in the wall of
Gog and Magog like this, and he

1399
01:54:57.840 --> 01:55:00.960
makes a number. It was asked, shall we be destroyed though they are

1400
01:55:01.079 --> 01:55:04.560
righteous people among us? The prophet
said, yes, if evil is increased.

1401
01:55:04.600 --> 01:55:08.640
So it is actually a wall,
and they're trying to dig through that

1402
01:55:08.640 --> 01:55:13.399
wall. But it's it gets even
better, it gets even better. This

1403
01:55:13.479 --> 01:55:20.039
is bizarre. It is. It
is very bizarre, very very bizarre.

1404
01:55:23.399 --> 01:55:26.560
It says the afflictions of the end
of the world. So does that mean

1405
01:55:26.640 --> 01:55:30.079
that this wall in the holes that
they're trying to dig has been going on

1406
01:55:30.239 --> 01:55:36.279
from that? Yeah? Yeah,
it gets very very ridiculous. So this

1407
01:55:36.359 --> 01:55:46.600
is a description about the ends times. It says he mentioned the Jaw,

1408
01:55:46.720 --> 01:55:48.960
I said, I will descend him
kill and then people will return to their

1409
01:55:48.960 --> 01:55:53.520
own lands and will be confronted with
dog and macgogu people who will swoop down

1410
01:55:53.600 --> 01:55:56.920
from every mound. They will not
pass by any water, but they will

1411
01:55:57.039 --> 01:56:00.279
drink it by anything, but they
will spoil it. They will the people

1412
01:56:00.359 --> 01:56:04.680
will besiege Allah, and I will
pray to Allah to kill them. The

1413
01:56:04.760 --> 01:56:10.279
earth will be filled with their stinge
and the people who will besiege Allah,

1414
01:56:10.319 --> 01:56:12.840
and I will pray to a lot
and the sky will send down rain.

1415
01:56:14.319 --> 01:56:16.560
Then the mountains will turn to dust
and the earth and this and that.

1416
01:56:20.199 --> 01:56:24.960
Okay, there's one description, but
there's there's even more. It gets very

1417
01:56:24.960 --> 01:56:30.359
bizarre. It gets very very bizarre. So it describes go back to the

1418
01:56:31.560 --> 01:56:39.000
things here. Uh Goagan Magogagan Magogue. Are they are these strong headies?

1419
01:56:39.880 --> 01:56:45.840
Ah yeah yeah. Bugari is always
strong, very reliable. Some of them

1420
01:56:45.840 --> 01:56:53.560
are from different sources, but they
also marked as sah He authentic. Gog

1421
01:56:53.640 --> 01:56:57.520
and Magogue dig every day until when
they can almost see the rays of the

1422
01:56:57.560 --> 01:57:00.159
sun. The one in charge of
them says, go back and we will

1423
01:57:00.199 --> 01:57:03.880
dig it tomorrow. Then Allah puts
it back stronger than it was before this

1424
01:57:03.920 --> 01:57:08.640
will continue until when their time has
come, Allow wants to send them against

1425
01:57:08.680 --> 01:57:11.960
the people. They will dig until
they can almost see the race of the

1426
01:57:12.000 --> 01:57:14.279
sun. Then the one who is
in charge of them will say, go

1427
01:57:14.359 --> 01:57:16.239
back, and who will dig it
tomorrow? If allow wills. So they

1428
01:57:16.279 --> 01:57:20.359
will say, if Allow wills,
then they will come back to it and

1429
01:57:20.560 --> 01:57:24.479
it will be as they left it. So they will dig and will come

1430
01:57:24.479 --> 01:57:27.479
out to the people, and they
will drink all the water. People will

1431
01:57:27.520 --> 01:57:30.640
fortify themselves. They will shoot their
arrows towards the sky, and they will

1432
01:57:30.680 --> 01:57:34.279
come back with blood on them,
and they will say, we have defeated

1433
01:57:34.319 --> 01:57:40.840
the people of the earth and dominated
the people of heaven. Then Allow will

1434
01:57:40.880 --> 01:57:44.439
send a worm in the names of
their necks and will kill them thereby,

1435
01:57:44.680 --> 01:57:46.479
and so on and then and then
there will be a beast of the earth

1436
01:57:46.520 --> 01:57:53.000
that will be let's lose. This
is all stuff. So this is another

1437
01:57:53.560 --> 01:57:58.399
layer of what I would say from
the Christian biblical perspective of kind of cobbling

1438
01:57:58.439 --> 01:58:03.439
together things in Ezekiel that are kind
of mysterious, and but I mean,

1439
01:58:03.479 --> 01:58:08.760
there's nothing, you know what.
There is a there's a text in Ezekiel

1440
01:58:08.920 --> 01:58:15.520
where Ezekiel is he is talking about
the Jews who were engaged in pagan worship

1441
01:58:15.600 --> 01:58:21.199
and that they had dug out under
the wall of the temple a secret place

1442
01:58:21.359 --> 01:58:30.119
where they were worshiping like pagan gods. So that's famously the same book where

1443
01:58:30.119 --> 01:58:32.439
we get Gog and Magod from the
latter chapters of Ezekiel. I'm just speculating.

1444
01:58:32.439 --> 01:58:38.239
I'm thinking that they might have heard
stories from Ezekiel about digging through the

1445
01:58:38.279 --> 01:58:43.119
wall. And then Mohammad is creatively
kind of cobbling this together and saying,

1446
01:58:43.800 --> 01:58:46.600
this is an end Times narrative of
a wall that the Jews and other people

1447
01:58:46.600 --> 01:58:51.680
try to dig through. You see
what I'm saying, interesting perspective, speculating

1448
01:58:53.079 --> 01:58:57.319
in the ends, we cannot know
what exactly happened there. But as the

1449
01:58:57.359 --> 01:59:00.079
point of challenge, there is a
lot of are lots of references in the

1450
01:59:00.119 --> 01:59:08.079
Quran where it continues saying and they
say that these are just stories of the

1451
01:59:08.119 --> 01:59:13.600
old They say, he hears whatever
he believes, whatever he says. So

1452
01:59:13.640 --> 01:59:18.880
these are Quran verses about Muhammad,
and these grand verses basically tell us that

1453
01:59:18.920 --> 01:59:24.479
the people around him kept accusing him
of taking stories from others. From people

1454
01:59:24.520 --> 01:59:29.279
around him, from believing, up
believing whatever people say, from making things

1455
01:59:29.359 --> 01:59:34.720
up, from of being crazy and
so on. So it's we can speculate,

1456
01:59:34.840 --> 01:59:42.640
But it looks like he just got
a lot of myths and some true

1457
01:59:42.680 --> 01:59:47.600
stories, some falsehood some complete misunderstandings
and mixed them all together and presented them

1458
01:59:47.600 --> 01:59:50.560
as revelations. Well, we have
a lot of I mean that that end

1459
01:59:50.600 --> 01:59:56.760
times kind of stuff there. I
mean, I've spent many years researching and

1460
01:59:56.800 --> 02:00:00.880
reading and looking at evangelical approaches to
end time stuff, and I see a

1461
02:00:00.880 --> 02:00:05.119
lot of parallels there with that,
where they'll kind of cobble together a bunch

1462
02:00:05.119 --> 02:00:11.960
of very ambiguous, you know,
Old Testament passages, especially Ezekiel's latter chapters

1463
02:00:12.000 --> 02:00:15.359
about Gog and Magog, and it
gets kind of cobbled together in this jumbled

1464
02:00:15.439 --> 02:00:17.600
narrative that always talking about Russia,
and it's talking about the end of the

1465
02:00:17.640 --> 02:00:20.560
world in China, And I mean, I don't know what the end of

1466
02:00:20.560 --> 02:00:25.399
the world is going to be like, but I don't think that, you

1467
02:00:25.439 --> 02:00:29.199
know, the evangelicals kind of have
the they don't know what they're talking about

1468
02:00:29.199 --> 02:00:33.199
what I'm trying to say, And
I sensed the same kind of extremities and

1469
02:00:33.319 --> 02:00:42.039
cobbling together with Muhammad in those passages
that we see, for example, evangelicals

1470
02:00:42.079 --> 02:00:49.000
doing with passages from ezekiel Eschatology is
a very very interesting, very enticing thing

1471
02:00:49.119 --> 02:00:55.560
right to people. It's talking about
the end times, talking about the tribulations,

1472
02:00:55.560 --> 02:01:00.640
all the stuff that will happen as
something that people are always fascinated by.

1473
02:01:00.720 --> 02:01:05.159
It's also a very easy topic.
I can imagine that in the seventh

1474
02:01:05.279 --> 02:01:10.960
century in Arabia it would play well
with an audience. Yeah, where people

1475
02:01:11.000 --> 02:01:14.159
do not study much, do not
know much, don't know anything. It

1476
02:01:14.279 --> 02:01:17.880
is very easy to get everyone's attention
by talking about the end times and all

1477
02:01:17.880 --> 02:01:24.359
the fantastic stuff that will happen then. And it's quite believable that Muhammad got

1478
02:01:24.359 --> 02:01:28.680
his fair portion of that of all
of that and then turn to that into

1479
02:01:28.720 --> 02:01:32.880
a revelation which he then presents to
his own audience because it works so well,

1480
02:01:34.039 --> 02:01:38.640
and there we have it. It
would be interesting to see a similar

1481
02:01:38.680 --> 02:01:44.520
type of breakdown of the conceptions of
anti christ jall and all that kind of

1482
02:01:44.520 --> 02:01:46.680
stuff that you that you were referencing
the way that you were talking about,

1483
02:01:46.680 --> 02:01:53.520
how you know, to Christianity,
the resurrection has a really significant role anti

1484
02:01:53.640 --> 02:01:57.399
Christ is not as significant, but
it does play a key role in some

1485
02:01:57.439 --> 02:02:00.880
of the apocalyptic texts of the Bible. I'm curious. I'd be interested to

1486
02:02:00.880 --> 02:02:06.600
see in what way it's misunderstood or
sort of cobbled together in Islam, because

1487
02:02:06.600 --> 02:02:10.640
I didn't I didn't know about those
Hudi passages there, which were fascinating.

1488
02:02:11.479 --> 02:02:18.359
H It's funny. The jaw literally
means deceiver or something along along those lines.

1489
02:02:19.239 --> 02:02:26.079
So the actual, the actual long
form name is massa Ja, which

1490
02:02:26.119 --> 02:02:30.720
is the false Messiah, the deceiving
Messiah. Uh. It's directly adopted from

1491
02:02:30.479 --> 02:02:34.199
Christianity but then presented in a complet
in a different way and then Islam.

1492
02:02:34.239 --> 02:02:41.119
The narrative is basically that the Jaw, the false Messiah, will come at

1493
02:02:41.119 --> 02:02:45.800
the end and he will basically claim
to be God. Very interesting stuff.

1494
02:02:45.800 --> 02:02:48.600
He will claim to be God,
and he will raise people from the dead.

1495
02:02:49.039 --> 02:02:51.439
He will kill somebody and raise him
from the from the dead, and

1496
02:02:51.680 --> 02:02:55.560
he will be sound you sound like
I mean, that sounds like Paul and

1497
02:02:55.600 --> 02:03:00.359
second Thessalonians, and it sounds like
chapters of Revelation. Yeah, and he

1498
02:03:00.399 --> 02:03:05.600
will he will claim to be Allah
and people will follow him because he will

1499
02:03:05.640 --> 02:03:12.119
be so so so amazing. But
the true believers, they will immediately recognize

1500
02:03:12.159 --> 02:03:15.359
him and they will not follow him. And then at the same time,

1501
02:03:15.479 --> 02:03:20.720
Jesus will come down from the sky
as a Muslim and so this this is

1502
02:03:20.760 --> 02:03:25.319
crib from the apocalypse. Yeah,
and he will. He will basically fight,

1503
02:03:25.520 --> 02:03:29.720
fight them, fight to the John
and and then pray together with the

1504
02:03:29.800 --> 02:03:32.800
Muslims. And according to the Hudi, he will come and break the cross

1505
02:03:32.840 --> 02:03:39.960
and kill the pig and break the
Christian cross. Yeah, break the Christian

1506
02:03:40.000 --> 02:03:43.840
who's the pig? The pig is
just killed, it says, killed this

1507
02:03:43.960 --> 02:03:46.960
swine. That's what killed the pig. Again, he just he just kills

1508
02:03:47.000 --> 02:03:51.960
the pigs and for no reason.
And wait, wait, literal pigs or

1509
02:03:53.039 --> 02:03:57.319
like the people are called pigs.
No, it's it's literal pigs. So

1510
02:03:57.399 --> 02:04:01.560
he comes and surely you're joking.
He will come in. He'll be like,

1511
02:04:01.600 --> 02:04:05.359
don't eat this. I don't know
why exactly. He's gonna be clean.

1512
02:04:05.720 --> 02:04:09.880
I guess so. But it's so
what Momma says is he will come

1513
02:04:09.880 --> 02:04:13.479
with you. He will break the
cross and kill the pig. I will

1514
02:04:13.520 --> 02:04:17.039
prove to you that I'm not joking
about it. I just I guess I

1515
02:04:17.119 --> 02:04:19.560
just keep one of giving the benefit
of doubt and think, well, surely

1516
02:04:19.600 --> 02:04:25.279
they mean like the swine symbolic of
evil people. But you're saying, actually,

1517
02:04:25.359 --> 02:04:30.840
just kill pigs. Well, I
guess at the end of the world,

1518
02:04:31.520 --> 02:04:33.920
those pigs do have to get dealt
with. I mean, like,

1519
02:04:34.640 --> 02:04:45.399
yes, somebody has to do something
about this. Okay, there you go.

1520
02:04:45.560 --> 02:04:47.880
Wow. Yeah, So a lot
of messages at the r will not

1521
02:04:47.920 --> 02:04:51.159
be established until the son of Mary, the sense amongst you, as a

1522
02:04:51.239 --> 02:04:55.760
just jeweler, he will break the
cross, kill the pigs, and abolish

1523
02:04:55.800 --> 02:05:00.159
the texts. Do they have like
explanations of oh, this symbol lies the

1524
02:05:00.279 --> 02:05:06.279
unbelievers or something, or I haven't
looked in length into this, but I

1525
02:05:06.319 --> 02:05:10.479
know that it's that. It's like
the explanation is just that it's it's it's

1526
02:05:10.520 --> 02:05:15.720
actually pigs, and the cross is
actual cross, and people people literally break

1527
02:05:15.720 --> 02:05:19.239
it to confirm that the cross belief
is false. Yeah. Yeah, so

1528
02:05:20.439 --> 02:05:25.319
these are the priorities of Jesus when
he comes back. Well, I guess

1529
02:05:25.319 --> 02:05:30.279
if look, if Jesus does descend
and break the cross and destroy that kill

1530
02:05:30.319 --> 02:05:32.640
all the pigs, I guess I'll
have to be a Muslim at that that

1531
02:05:32.720 --> 02:05:39.840
happens, right, especially if you
see him kill the pig. I can't

1532
02:05:39.880 --> 02:05:45.880
believe that was actually correct. So
wow, that's messed up. That's crazy,

1533
02:05:45.920 --> 02:05:50.359
all right. I mean really instructive, instructive and insightful talk. I

1534
02:05:50.359 --> 02:05:54.479
always enjoyed talking to you. It's
really funny too. By the way,

1535
02:05:54.479 --> 02:05:56.960
thank you for all that that insight
there. You always learned from you.

1536
02:05:57.000 --> 02:06:00.239
I appreciate that. Thank you so
much. I I really I off the

1537
02:06:00.239 --> 02:06:04.960
debate that you had. It was
like your opening was an education for Daneland,

1538
02:06:05.000 --> 02:06:09.439
and he came and just messed it
all up with this very primitive approach

1539
02:06:09.479 --> 02:06:15.840
to the scripture. So mad respect
for that as well. And I'll always

1540
02:06:15.840 --> 02:06:17.359
be happy to have you here,
Jay, absolutely, Yeah, thank you.

1541
02:06:17.720 --> 02:06:21.199
I'm glad to be glad to be
back on and anytime you want to

1542
02:06:21.239 --> 02:06:28.279
chat again, I'm down absolutely.
Thanks everyone for joining. Have a fantastic

1543
02:06:28.359 --> 02:06:33.359
day. I'll see you soon and
stay away from Aslan, all right.

1544
02:06:33.439 --> 02:06:33.920
Thanks man,