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to podcasts. Hardwood Knox listeners. What the heck is up? I am
Dan Valley. We are here. We are continuing on with our decade player
rankings, which means it's time to speak with Adam Frammel, quality editor for
Bleacher Report, also the founder and editor in chief of NBA Math. Follow
him on Twitter at Frammel zero nine. Also a good friend and colleague of
mine. If you didn't catch that by knowing where he works at Bleacher Report,
you really shouldn't need this intro either, because we recorded so many of
these episodes and he is a Hardwood Knox og one of the founding Hardwood Knox
members as well. Before we get started with the Golden State Warriors and they're
ten best players of the decade. Just the usual housekeeping notes first and foremost,
please continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to us on iTunes. The
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With all of that stuff, now said Adam, how are you doing?
I am doing fantastic. The weather is nice. I get to walk my
dogs in a little bit. Life is good on the neighborhood that I'm being
confined to. Yeah, I have my dog is like sleeping on the couch
away from me. I'm giving him a little freedom this time away from his
bubbles. So I'm hoping he doesn't go rogue made a podcast, that's word
I mean, I hope he does make an appearance. We're working against the
puppy clock here, folks. We're working. We do. We do record
these with video on so I like, I very much hope that he replaces
you on the screen, like throughout the entire episode, people will hear him
if if that ends up being the case, he was in my lap for
the previous episode when we did the Pistons. We are, however, on
to the Warriors, and I feel like I'm screaming into my microphone in the
past couple episodes, and I've been editing these, I feel like the base
is really up there, so I need to need to be a little bit
more cognizant of that. You're just really fired up about the Pistons, Yeah,
I'm I just get excited talking about Michigan sports. You know this the
Warriors, though, Let's just get right into it. Who is Who's number
ten and the composite ranking for the Warriors? Yeah, number ten was was
the tough spot. You know, each of us had a guy at ten
who did not end up making the composite rankings. I had Marie Spates,
you had Brandon Rush. The fans had Harrison Barnes down at number ten,
but they had Monte Ellis at number nine, which was enough to get him
into the tenth spot. I don't hate it, he was only there for
like a season and a half during the decade that we're actually looking at valuable
score. Maybe didn't make the team better, but the Warriors dynasty wouldn't have
started if they didn't move away from him, and if he wasn't the precursors.
So like, I kind of get it, but ultimately, like we're
looking at the tenth spot as a straggler behind the very obvious top nine.
Yeah, nothing yet, you there, though, I think I do think
we forget how solid brand and Rush was during his time with the Warriors,
and he played in more games and he was there for longer than you think
during this time, and the same for Spates. But I just I didn't
have any objective evidence for him like you're about to present. I just liked
watching him shoot long twos. Well, he had the brand. I think
you remember Marie Spades more than you do brand and Rush during this decade.
I think that's probably so. I am surprised that Harrison Barnes was number ten
in the fan vote. Not see that coming, I know, yeah,
I know that that really surprised me. And uh, you know, our
our our ex colleague at Bleacher Report and current friend, Jacob Borne, refused
to include him in his top ten when he submitted the ballot, And I
wonder if it was like kind of similar for a lot of people, where,
you know, maybe just him not really becoming more than a role player
in Bolden's state and not living up to that sky high potential that he had
when he left North Carolina. Maybe like just didn't. He wasn't as as
memorable or as as positively memorable, maybe, and and that pushed him down
ballots. I didn't really have a good explanation. Maybe they're just traumatized from
the twenty and sixteen playoffs, just all the miss miss Corny's fair shot forty
point nine percent on two pointers, that that might be a little bit.
He certainly belongs in the top ten. Shame on Jacob Borne. I mean
for most things, but but this especially so number nine ends up being then
monte Alla. She said, correct, Number ten was monte Ella. He
was number nine on the fan ballot. Yeah, sorry, I should have
made that more clear. But number nine in the composite was Andrew Bogat.
He was my number nine as well. Look, there's I might be a
little bit lower on him just because I think what unlock the Warriors potential was
they end up you know, putting like fielding the death lineup at his expense.
My whole thing, though, is he did play a huge role in
assembling what became a top tier defense for a very long period of time.
Without that trade itself, we don't know if the Warriors become the Warriors.
Is that because Andrew Bogan helped give him such a great defensive identity or because
it just liberated Steph from playing with mante Alisoul, you know, maybe a
combination of the two. And so he certainly deserves recognition. But when you
look at all the games that matter most for the Warriors and the playoffs,
I think there are a bunch of people, pretty much everyone in front of
him, with the exception of one who I think goes We're going with the
theirness factor. For him, he was just everyone else was just more important
to the outcome of most of those bigger games than he ever was. Yeah,
the screens, the defense, the willingness to accept a smaller offensive role.
I mean, if you look back at the beginning of his career,
like he was featured in some of those Milwaukee offenses, never as like a
twenty points per game guy, But coming out of Utah like he did have
offensive potential, and for him to totally sacrifice those touches as soon as he
came to Golden State in twenty twelve is a big deal. And I think
that that willingness to sacrifice even before the team became the juggernaut that it was,
really did help set the stage for that dynastic run. And that's the
kind of thing that it's hard to quantify, but it was. It was
very obviously impactful. One of the more underrated passes passers in his position as
well too, and that was also a big thing of what helped the worst.
Not only are you dealing with, you know, fewer shots when don't
you come to Golden State, but he's also deferring more as well. And
so oh, I wonder if Steph would have been as good an off ball
mover and shooter as he is now without playing with Bogit during the early portion
of his career, if he wasn't rewarded for that movement to the extent that
he was, would he have prioritized that part of his development. That's a
good question. Although it seems like Mark Jackson was just dead set on not
really having Stephen Curry developed on offense at all, and so maybe he always
would have needed to learn how to go off the ball. And please note
that Mark Jackson did not receive any votes. So far as coaches ever get
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the vote at number eight though at number eight was unanimously Sean Livingston. The
fans, you and I all had him at number eight, which I think
was valid. You know, a very solid role player, a deadly mid
range jumper. I mean, I think that's what we associate with him most
obviously. But you know what a success story for him to be such a
promising prospect with the Clippers, just destroy his knee on that lay up attempt
gone wrong and then come back to be such an integral part of this team
for such a long amount of time. Yeah, and look his defensive bandwidth
too, Like just he had wing range even though he was essentially deployed as
a point guard, and so you have like a nice backup facilitator someone his
money from the mid range. But then also you can just move about on
the defensive end all over the place. I think that was a huge part
of their defensive identity, is that they didn't have to sacrifice too much of
it when they're tapping into their bench, just because you have these you know,
right down to Igodala when he when he came over. You have those
wing type players coming off the plne and Livingston was just a huge part of
all that. And they're you know, most of the advanced metrics aren't going
to love him relative to others, but you're dealing with a lot of counting
stats. They are cumulive stats because he just wasn't playing as much. Who
knows if he would have He's he's eighth in minutes for Golden State during this
decade, but would he if he was on another team, would've gotten more
minutes? Could he handle more minutes? It does feel like this was sort
of the perfect situation for him, but he also left an imprint that no
one could have really foreseen when when he first came over in twenty fifteen,
I think it was was two two thousand and fourteen has fourteen. So yeah,
I mean, I totally. I think you could probably even if you
wanted to say that he belonged over at Harrison Barnes or a David Lee no
spoilers alert, I'd probably listen to it. Yeah. It's one of those
where like the Warriors were consistently worse with him on the court, And that's
a great example of why the idea of like the net ratings swing isn't always
the end all be all. Just because he had to replace Curry and so
many of these lineups. You know, he had to be the steadying force
of that second unit, and he did it on both ends of the floor.
Like he was the steady facilitator. He was the interchangeable defender who could
work in so many different lineups, and that didn't necessarily show up in the
statuet. But I'm glad that that you and I and the fans did seem
to recognize those contributions. Yeah. I think that's a great point, is
that if you have to bear cast with replacing Stephen freaking Curry, like,
you can't really expect them to have like the improved net rating swing, And
that's where that can be fought and where where the context really matters there Who
came in at number seven though? So at number seven we have Harrison Barnes,
who we've already talked about. He was ten for the fans, he
was six for both of us. I don't really have anything to add beyond
that, and we've already talked about him for other team. So I'm cool
moving on to number six if you want to, Well, I'm just gonna
say I do think there's look at what he was able to do. Another
guy who just had wing type of defensive range was okay, you know,
defending fours as well, and then he did work as a complimentary offensive piece.
And I guess this doesn't really help his Warriors ranking, but later on
you saw there was more to his game than that. But I think there's
value in having someone like that who for so long played within this exact type
of role. I just don't where I really feel like the expectations random UK
It's like, what was his path to start them with Golden State? There
wasn't much. Yeah, I mean, there wasn't any. And I think
that's the biggest testament to him is that he was picked seventh overall in that
twenty twelve draft, but there was there was talk about him being the number
one pick before he played at North Carolina, like just this super hyped prospect
and for him to come into a team that already had this much offensive talent
and be professional and be a positive locker room presence and be a positive on
court presence. I mean, I think Harrison Barnes' career could have gone on
a lot like Andrew Wiggins is in a different location, But the fact that
he never pushed for that role is a really positive, is a huge positive
for him. The final two things I'll say about him is one he should
narrate audiobooks I would buy and listen to. Those two, he is the
king of entering free agency at the right time, not only just going into
free agency in twenty sixteen, which obviously isn't his choice, like that's how
your contract is structured when he signed his rookie scale deal, but then seeing
what happened to like contracts after that and how tight the market was in twenty
seventeen, a little bit in twenty eighteen, and then he hits it again
in twenty nineteen to claiming that player option right before and this again no one
could have predicted this, but the NBA salary cap is about to implode,
and so just the king of entering free agency at the right time. Kudos,
Harrison Barnes. I have to follow up on the audiobook point though,
because I agree with you he would be a great choice, but I am
curious if he would be your number one choice among every NBA player ever,
because for me, I feel like I want to Kim bay Mutambo to read
audio books to my child, and if not him, like maybe Scottie Pippen,
and I think he's my wife's number one choice after watching the first seven
episodes so far of the Last Dance, Like every time he comes on the
screen and talks, she's like, he needs that. That man needs to
record audio books. Okay, I'm going to separate it like this. If
it was like a children's show, I would want to hear to kim By
Mutambo. I don't find the cookie monster voice that relaxing. And so that's
fair, like you don't want him to like read Harry Potter to you or
something right. And with Scottie Pippen, if he was to host a painting
show where he was going through step by step what he was doing on the
canvas, Bob Ross style, that's what I want to see from him.
And then Harrison Barnes can corner the market on the audio books. How's that.
That's a great answer. You've spent way too much time thinking about this.
Before I asked that question, I didn't know that you were coming prepared
to talk about NBA audio books. Why do you think I actual if we
could start an hour late. I was just I was just preparing for this.
I actually didn't ask that, but I've been prepared for that question my
entire life. Who So I had Harrison Barnes at number six, but who's
actually at number six in the composite ranking. Actually at number six is David
Lee. He was sixth for the fan vote. He was seventh for both
of us. We had very similar top ten ballots, just a difference at
number ten, and our second and third were switched around. So we're gonna
be consistently consistent here. I like it. Look David Lee was. He
had numbers when he was with the Warriors, big numbers. I remember when
he was signed and traded from the Knicks. His like path to that contract
with the Warriors was wild. He signed a one year deal with the Knicks,
like for his second contract was a one year deal, which you really
just never see anymore. And then he gets signed and traded to them.
I think was it a six year deal at the time, I couldn't even
remember it for it was for a long time. Maybe it was only five.
I'm looking at it right now now it looks like he was six.
So one of those final six year deals. And look, he was a
really good offensive player. He worked on the glass, pretty good passer,
never had the range that I think you'd want a contemporary big to have.
I think if you took prime David Lee right now, though you could,
you could probably pretty easily get away with him offensively as a center. Defensively
is a different story. But he was good. I think he was just
a quality guy. Was never really valuable to the best version of the Warriors,
but he was still he was still a good quality player. And I
think he's there in his factor here when you when you look at where he
ranks in minutes played is fifth for the decade. That has to definitely count
for something. And so just solid, just there, and so I wanted
to put him in the middle. Yeah. One of the things you said
in the lead up to recording this really resonated with me that the Warriors dynasty
doesn't start without sacrificing David Lee. And like, if we think back to
that, the decision that Steve Kerr made during the twenty fourteen fifteen season and
playoffs to effectively move away from this twenty ten All Star, the twenty points
ten rebounds, not the year twenty and ten All Star threat, and give
so much run to Draymond Green. That was a bold decision at the time.
It was it was a controversial decision at the time, but it was
also the impetus behind their success. Like without without turning the keys over to
this unheralded second round pick who wasn't a big scorer, who wasn't always a
big rebounder, Like, we don't know what happens to these dynastic teams,
right. That's not a knock against the league, no, And it's look,
there's there's a level of just happenstands here because if he doesn't get injured
at the beginning of that season to where Draymond Green has to start, does
Draymond Green never see the starting lineup? That's a good question. It definitely
took gall to stick with Draymond Green after the fact, but I'd be curious
to see if David Lee never gets injured, what happens with these Warriors?
Do we is at least Draymond Green the player that we know him to be
today? And so that is just sort of an interesting side plot to everything
that's happened with Golden State over these past five or six years. Yeah,
no, I it's it's definitely an interesting ypothetical. But again, I just
I want to drive home the point that them replacing Lee with Green is a
testament to Green's excellence and the need for that kind of skill set on a
growing and thriving team and not a knock against what Lee did during his prime
years with Golden State, because he's probably one of the more underrated players of
the last decade. Like, when was the last time you talked or thought
about David Lee? Even though he was he was a legitimate All Star,
like there was there was no doubt that he belonged in that conversation, but
he's just kind of been lost over the last ten years. Someone else who
is probably people just don't remember that he was a pretty good passer for someone
at his position. Who do we have at number five? I feel like
this one is the no brainer? Yeah, yeah, it is because he's
he's very clearly the best of the role players who were a part of the
dynasty, but he's not one of the four absolute stars, despite the finals
MVP that he probably shouldn't have gotten. And if you haven't figured out that
we're talking about Andrea Igodala by now, then hey, we're talking about Andrea
Goodala at number five, who was fifth from the fans me and you.
You know what, a consummate professional who always does what's needed to aid the
winning cause contributes on defense, contributes on the board some of the best hands
we've ever seen for knocking down shot attempts before they even get started. I
think that's like the signature play I associate with Igodala is that that rip strip
as guys are going up for shots. I don't know how he does that
so well, But yeah, I mean, can you say bad things about
this guy? No, I don't even think it's there's really I don't have
anything to add. I would ask two maybe bigger picture questions. One,
I think it's easy, is Andrea Goodala hall of Famer? And two?
Did he deserve to win Finals MVP in twenty fifteen? He didn't. I
think I think we gave too much credence the idea that he slowed down,
shut down whatever, Lebron James, But I don't. I don't think he
deserved that award. It should have gone to either Lebron or to Steph.
In my opinion, I'm still surprised by that decision. I do think the
Hall of Fame question isn't really a no brainer. While we while we still
have guys like Sean Marion who haven't made it. I will use every opportunity
to promote Sean Marian's Hall of Fame case I would put him in, But
I think I'm a little bit more lenient with with who I would want to
include than a lot of people are. To me, it comes down to
the question of, like, can you tell the story of basketball without him?
And like he was really he was really good with Philadelphia and he was
so vital to those Warriors teams, But I don't know, like he's he's
a great like sitting on the fence case for me, and I think I
just I slightly lead lean towards inclusion. I'm probably heavily leaning towards inclusion.
But way to turn that into more of a debatable question than I thought it
was going to bay, Well, I'm curious what basketball references Hall of Fame
probability, which again is based solely on the numbers, And yeah, they
only haven't met six point one percent, which which doesn't surprise me just because
he doesn't necessarily have the statistical profile of a Hall of Famer, but so
much of that is because he spent prime athletic years taking on lesser roles for
winning teams, and there's there's something to be said for doing that. Yeah,
And I mean, look you, it's tough for how many people that
have three championships that were playing a role on those team are actually not in
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of questionable Hall of famers, at number four you have, I mean,
I hope you know I'm not serious. I hope everyone thinks you're dead ass
serious and your numptions just become a firestorm. I mean, he's probably gonna
tweet at me now, right because it's it's it's it's Kevin durand a number
four. I had him at number four, You had him at number four,
The fans had him at number three. Yeah, I mean, like,
what what a strange couple of years it was. I I remember being
shocked by his decision to join the Warriors. I was surprised that he wanted
to leave the Warriors, though not necessarily shocked, but man, like,
those teams were so good while he was there, and he was so good
it felt like when he really just became everything on the basketball court. Yeah,
twenty sixteen, two and seventeen Golden State is probably the best team of
all time in my book, even though that's not the seventy three you win
team. You just look at that talent and just how it's how easy it
seemed like everything came to them, just absolutely mind blowing. And look,
the reason I wouldn't put him any higher is just because the team did at
least prove it could win without him. I don't know if it gets too
more. It proved it could win an NBA record number of games without him,
right, but then they blew a three to one league as well.
I'm just saying, I don't know if they win two more titles if he
doesn't come. I would say they get at least one. But I think
that that's the easiest case to put him. Yeah, was he better than
Clay? Was he better than Draymond? Yes, but they were in front
of him because that there in his factor matters when they were actually such integral
cogs in this mammoth winning machine before he came, and they're part of the
reason that he showed up as well. I I was kind of surprised that
he chose the Warriors at that time. I didn't. I guess I just
couldn't imagine someone of that magnitude going to a seventy three win team. I
was not surprised at all by how it ended. I think it was almost
written on the wall after just so many awkward moments. You look at Bob
Meyers. That was that the twenty eighteen championship parade or was the twenty seventeen
whichever one it was. At this point, that thing just seemed so combustible
because it was clear why Kevin Durant left to go to Golden State in the
first place. But by doing that, he was fair or not going to
cheapen every single feat that he did thereafter on that team, And so I
could understand why he wouldn't feel fulfilled just by churning out championships there because people
are never going to view them in the same vein as if he had won
one in Oklahoma City or maybe now if he wins one in Brooklyn once he's
healthy. Yeah, I get it from from his perspective. I was still
surprised, just because it seemed like when that team went through those those moments
of internal turmoil and adversity, they tended to come out on the right side
of them, Like it seemed like Draymond Green and Durant properly reconciled after their
big bruhaha, Right, But I also I do get why he left.
I guess surprise might have been the wrong word, even if there was some
element of surprise because ultimately, like for me, as good as Durant was
in Oklahoma City, you know, a four time scoring champion who had to
sacrifice touches in Golden State, it still felt like that was the Golden State
was the location where he became the fully idealized version of himself. And for
a superstar are who does genuinely care about how he's perceived. And I want
to make it clear that I'm not saying that as a negative, like I
don't mean to have any negative connotations from that statement. But for a superstar
who cares about how he's perceived by the general public, becoming the best version
of himself, I thought would would supersede some of those maybe devalued team accomplishments
because Golden State is where he became just a deadly secondary facilitator and a defensive
weapon who could play at and thrive at almost every single position on the court,
and just like coming together, all the pieces coming together like that.
For me, I think that's why I was still a bit surprised to see
him leave and pursue success in a new location. Yeah, that's only makes
sense, I guess, with all just the extracurricular stuff that was going on
behind the scenes, though, where you could tell that the right teammates were
wearing on one another when you factor an egoes, that's probably where it functionally.
Yeah, we probably saw the best version of Durant we had ever seen
in some of those Golden State years. But I think you could just sense
that he clearly wasn't fulfilled in that role, and then that in term we're
starting to grade on those around him. Where we get to the controversy though
between us, is that the two and three spots. So who comes in
at three? Yeah? Can we talk about these together, do you mind?
So at number three we have Draymond Green. He was number four from
the fans, he was number three for you, he was number two for
me, and then Clay Thompson barely beat him out for the second spot.
He was second for the fans, third for me, and second for you.
So I'm just I'm curious what the justification was. I'm not saying it
was wrong, because I think you can very easily go either way with these
two players, But why did you have Clay higher than Draymond Green? So,
look, this season actually has a lot to do with it. Because
I think it's clear that Draymond has benefited from his surroundings more than Clay Thompson
necessarily has. And so like that aura of imagine if Draymond Green could run
his own team, that mystique is gone. And part of that was his
effort. Level of clear wasn't there. And the Golden State actually had some
good defensive moments with him on the court this year, and I'm fine chalking
this up to a gap year for him. But now we sort of know
what happens with Draymond Green if you remove the superstars that are around him and
with Clay Thompson, I do feel like his role there is more sacrifice into
it just because he doesn't have the same Yes, he can do stuff in
the post, he can create his own looks. Do I think that he
has another level as a facilitator if he was given more touches, I honestly
don't know. But there's just been more of a sacrifice there for him,
and the fact that you combine that with you know, his defensive responsibilities did
not make the warrior's identity, but because he can defend one through three,
that's an absolute huge deal and it's helped Stephen Curry. It's made so many
defensive assignments that you have to worry about, not just throughout the regular season,
but in playoff series. These just afterthoughts because you can count on Clay
to really do great things on ball, and I don't think that's always reflected
in the advanced metrics because one, it's so hard to just quantify defense.
I think everyone agrees that that's just the hardest aspect of basketball to to objectively
quantify. So I just I respect all that, and when I'm going to
combine what he's done, what he sacrificed, with maybe what we now know
about Draymond Green that yeah, you know, the shooting has never really come
around. The twenty sixteen year was sort of an aberration. Does it matter
a little bit that he was someone who really butt heads with Kevin Durant.
I think that could be a case against him. And then I think offensively,
yes, he's a talented passer. He can really do things when he
gets moving downhill. But if you don't have Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson around
Draymond Green at the same time, I think you're looking at a vastly inferior
version of Green, And you could say the same thing about Klay Thompson if
you remove the other two. I just don't think it would be as inferior
relative to where he's at right now. I guess the biggest point I would
want to rebut is the idea that this current season is evidence against Draymond Green
being higher than Clay in these rankings, just because I wonder if those situations
were reversed, would it be any better? Because for me, like Clay,
Clay is the player who I think is a bit more dependent on his
teammates, and we're largely splitting hairs here, and it was ultimately like the
intangible benefits that that Draymond Green possesses that pushed him ahead for me, just
because I think that he lent his competitive fire and his versatility to those teams
and really became like the heart and soul of those teams, those teams mental
states, which wasn't always a good thing, but I think it was mostly
a good thing. I don't know that they become a defensive juggernaut without him.
I don't know that the Splash Brothers are truly unlocked without his passing and
facilitating I don't know that we see the death lineups without him. Just again
like there there are marginal hair splitting differences between these guys, but I actually
kind viewed it the opposite, where if I was placing each of them in
a vacuum, I think I might have more success with Draymond as the centerpiece
of that team because I think that Clay is ultimately more dependent on those around
him, which is in no way a knock on him. He's he's want
to be absolute best ever we've seen in the role that he fills, but
I think it's ultimately like a smaller role than the one that Green has filled.
Those are fair points. I think where we might really differentiate is I
think Draymond Green is just as reliant on those around him, it just comes
or manifests in a different form. Because with Klay Thompson, it's easier to
view him as more of this complimentary, you know, star dependent score because
he's just there are games where he just doesn't have to dribble it. With
Draymond Green, if you take the dribbling out of the equation for him,
or if you need him to shoot, or if you need him to create
without three above average shooters around him at all time times. I think that's
where he's going to run into problems. And I think if you gave Klay
Thompson the ball more and ask them to create from scratch, that he's going
to have more success in a similar situation this season than than Draymond Green would.
But it is fair because maybe you could argue there's definite the emotional Bell
Weather stuff absolutely matters. I totally get that. You can also the facilitating
too. I don't know if you put the ball in Klay Thompson's hands,
is he going to get to a, let's say, a Kawhi Leonard level
of facilitating. I don't don't know if he would ever get them. My
guests would be would be no. And so I do think that's probably not
fair points. But I don't think he's more of a complimentary talent or star
dependent talent than Draymond Green just because he dribbles less. I think that Draymond
Green's right dependence just shows itself in a different way, and part of it
is the replaceability of what they bring. You know, Clay is one of
the best three d you guys ever, but if you replace him with a
lesser three and D guy. Are those teams that successful, Probably not.
Are they championship caliber teams? Probably so. I think it's harder to find
the guy like Draymond who doesn't need to score double digit points. But we
have we have video evidence of him guarding like four different guys on one possession
and then getting a rebound and running a fast break capably, And I think
it's it's harder to find a player like that, which might not necessarily be
an argument for him over Clay, but is an argument in his favor as
just like an absolute era defining star. That's right. I think it's we're
both at the point where it's a discussion, and I think that's where it
needs to be. I'd be curious, though it does seem like people probably
default more towards your stance where it's just assumed. I feel like at this
point, at least I would say close to him, of the majority would
say Draymond Green is the second best player in or the second, let's just
say, the second most important warrior during this decade. The fans actually didn't
think it was particularly particularly close. Clay was between second and fourth on every
single ballot. Green dropped down to seventh and eighth on a couple of them.
Now, that's weird. It is weird, and I think that might
be some personality. Great on voters would be my guests there, But there
was a pretty clear stratification between two and three in the fan vote. But
this does lead me into my once per episode trivia question. So if you
want to put your thinking hat on, you ready for this one? Yeah?
Okay, So throughout NBA history, seven different players have averaged single digit
points while making at least three All Star teams. Draymond Green is one of
them, and I'm curious how many of the other six you can name?
Four of them? Four of them I don't think you will get because they
played in the forties, fifties, and sixties. So I can even spot
you those and see if you can get the two modern era players who join
him in the club. In fact, I'll do that. I'll do that,
Paul Seymour, Andy Phillip, Dick McGuire, and Slater Martin. Zero.
Right, those are the four early era ones. Ben Wallace is one
of them, okay. Dennis Rodman. Rodman is not one, all right,
And I'm guessing it's because I should have known this off the top of
my head. But yeah, only two All Star appearances. This is rough,
But I can't I done the third one. I'm gonna give you some
hints. I'm gonna give you some hints. He's a Hall of Famer.
He made eight All Star appearances, he led the league in blocks three times,
and he was a four time Defensive Player of the Year. Oh no,
how am I not going to get this one? This is gonna look
so bad. I'm just making it look worse and worse for you. Yeah,
oh my god, four time. I should know that one right off
the bat. He played for six different teams and wore jersey number fifty five
for all of them. Is that dick kem Bay? Is it is Dikembay.
I don't think I didn't think he's scoring was ever that low. I
also think I momentarily forgot that he had four dpo yes nine point eight points
per game throughout his career. But he did score in double digits every year
for the first eleven seasons of his career. It was just those small roles
that he took at the end of his career that depressed the career long scoring
tally. But well done. I mean you did. You did ultimately get
all three. That's what I'm gonna give you credit for all of them.
Hey, look, this is the best. It's the best you've done on
any of these really hard trivia questions. No, what was the one?
I knew most of the teams were Joe Johnson played, that's true, or
maybe it was Vince Carter. No one knew Vince Carter played for Phoenix.
I just want to I still don't believe that it has happened. It never
happened. There is no conversation to be had at number one though, right,
No, it's pretty obvious. It's it's Steph Curry. He was number
one for both of us. He was number one in all but one of
the fan ballot. Somebody did have him second with Kevin Durant first, which
I guess, like on some level, I don't agree with it, but
I guess I get the logic, Like if you want to say that Durant
reached the highest level of any player in Golden State, which I still disagree
with because of Steph's unanimous MVP season, But I'm I'm trying to justify it
on behalf of our faithful Hardwood Knox fan. I just don't know even if
you wanted to say that Count Durrant was the Warrior's best player during his three
years there, which is a conversation. I don't know that I necessarily side
with it. How do you not like factor in Steph's theirness? He won
a title before Durant came, like and I think as we've already seen like
what this is what like our eighth episode of these ninth Maybe I've lost count,
but how many people have we seen that have spent the entire decade in
the same spot. Very few Lebron changed teams like eight times in the same
decade. I think it was eleven. All right, that's my bad,
But yeah, he's just seven. Curry's fantastic. Do you think him or
Durant is going to go down higher on the all time rankings? Because I
think there's a case we made that Stephen peak was better. His average might
have been better. But there's like Kevin Durant's stardom has definitely been longer than
steps so far. Yeah, I think Steph might already be higher. I
have not paid any mind to that, esp in top seventy four, but
I'd be curious who's higher in that one right now. But I also think
his game is going to age better. What if he accepts like a Kyle
Korver like role where he's just this deadly off ball weapon deep into his thirties
and has fifty thousand more threes than anyone else has ever made, it will
try young beets to that mark, as opposed to Durant, who's now coming
off an Achilles injury and probably already doesn't have a game that will age quite
as well because he hasn't been as prominent an off ball weapon. I think
Steph might already be ahead, and that's probably just probably only going to go
further ahead because just with the factoring in the injuries. Now the conversation is
probably not will Steph finish ahead of Durana? I think it's it could be
an overwhelming yes, there it is. Has he already surpassed him? And
that's that's probably the conversation. I honestly don't know where I lean with that,
to be honest with you, what's the Steph myth that frustrates you most?
Like? For me, I think it's still like the defense. It's
still the fact that we haven't accepted he's a decent defender and there's nothing wrong.
We don't have to operate in this polarity like where he's either a great
defender or he's a terrible one. Like, he's a decent defender. Do
you know why? In part he's decent plays next to Clay Thomson, second
best player. He gets he's your assignments. But like his core is so
strong, and he's able to hold position against bigger players, and he has
great hands and he understands positioning well. Like, he doesn't have the tools
to be a shutdown all defensive player. But he's been decent throughout his career.
Yeah, and particularly during the most important years of the Warriors. I
would say he's been better than below average, which is super important at the
point guard position. I think people say it doesn't matter when you have someone
like Clay next to you. If your point guard is better than below average
average to better, that's huge. I think for me of just be him
fading in the playoffs. He's actually dealt with injuries, and I won't use
anything as an excuse for why they blew that three to one lead either.
But he wasn't bad in the twenty sixteen finals. When you look at the
number, it's like he just wasn't they had the Cavaliers just had a moment
like kudos to the to the Cavaliers. And so the narrative that he's just
not good in the playoffs are really fades. In the playoffs has always really
like peeved me that, And the defensive one is there. I think we've
at least moved away from he's just a shooter. I think people understand now
that the slights of Handy has off the dribble mean so much. The gravity
that he has for others than just his finishing elsewhere floaters, the tricks he
has around around the rim. One of the biggest misconceptions about this team,
though, is that they always associate the Warriors with three point volume, and
yet during those Kevin Durant years specifically, they were really heavily reliant on the
mid range game. And that's that's a team wide misconception to me. But
that's always one I found interesting. It was, why do people just assume
they thought Golden State was just like this trend setter for three point volume,
and and really it was It wasn't That's Houston first of all, right,
but even after them, it's not Golden State. No, I agree with
you. Yeah, I think the playoff thing is my on her up.
Specifically that people like to criticize him for not having a finals MVP. That's
ridiculous, like he's played at a really high level, knows And I think
my third place one is that he crossed over Chris Paul and made him fall
down. Nope, he stepped on his ankle. Watch the video. The
other thing with him, too is I don't think people appreciate all that he
gave up by helping recruit Durant. We see that where stars wouldn't do the
same. Derick Rose in Chicago, for one, I think that was a
a tories. He didn't want to help recruit Mellow in twenty fourteen, and
I'm sure there's been other instances of that, but he had to make a
sacrifice. Those finals MVPs might have been One of his sacrifices with Kevin Durant
is that you're going to go to Kevin Durant because he's taller and can shoot
over the top of people when it matters most. And that's not to diminish
with Kevin Durant do and say it's just because he's tall. It's absolutely naught.
He is the skills of a freaking guard. But Stephen Curry made sacrifices
and willingly accepted someone who he knew was going to infringe upon his spotlight,
his importance, his perception to win. And I still respect that. That's
like an intangible quality that matters, and also one of the lowest maintenance superstars
out there, just because how many times did you hear Joe lacub or read
I shouldn't say here, Joe lacob Steve Kurry just talk about how great Durant
was or when they might have called them the best player in the world.
When you have the only unanimous MVP in NBA history on your team there beforehand,
this dynasty definitely doesn't get started without them. He I think it's Stephen
Curry gave the Warriors their identity and then Draymond Green found a way to optimize
it is really what it is, and so there's that's an underrated aspect of
his legacy as well. And I think it's too often that gets then pitted
against what Durant did, and that's probably where it becomes too taxing because they're
both great players. But it seems like Stephen Curry was almost underappreciated within the
organization during these pasts, let's say three to four years. I maybe even
before Durant came there. I don't know if it was under appreciation so much
as they knew that they didn't have to waste their time appreciating him. That's
also true. But this is this is tangential. But we did just talk
about Steph and Kevin Durant, so I'm curious what you think. There was
the you know, one of the many ridiculous opinions that comes out of first
Take, but one that one that irked me was was Max Kellerman saying that
that Kyrie Irving is the most skilled offensive player of all time. And I'm
curious I would have both Steph and Durant above him in those rankings. But
I'm curious who you would have for that conversation. I don't know who would
you have. I think Durant is the choice for me, just like the
guy who can who can do absolutely everything on offense, especially like the version
that we saw in Golden State where he was a really deadly passer as well.
But like, you know, the seven footer who sorry if that's not
his listed height, but the seven footer who can get a shot wherever he
wants, whenever he wants, however he wants it, who has the handles
of a six foot guard, who can pass like a guard. You know,
just he has the absolute total package. And I think we often mistake
flashiness for effectiveness looking at looking at you, Kyrie, And you know,
I get if you want to make an argument for from Michael Jordan or Kobe
Bryant just because they had such an effective arsenal of offensive tricks. But I
just it's durant for me. I think, yeah, I think I'd probably
agree with you there. That's an airtight case. Do you have any airtight
cases for the honorable mentions though for the people? Oh I have, Yes,
I have a very airtight I have a very airtight case against the man
who ended up eleventh in the fan vote, which was somehow Barren fucking Davis,
who did not play for Golden State. This techade, like Golden State
fans, what are you doing? Like we believe team was awesome. Davis
had some ridiculous moments, like the posterization of Andre Kirolenko is an all time
moment in this franchise's history. But like what, he's eleventh. When you
texted me that, I couldn't believe it. That's just so funny. It's
like, what is happening here? He got a fucking second place vote?
Was Steph at least first on that ballot? I hope? Let me check
on that one. Let's let's look at that full ballot. In fact,
Baron Davis being numbered two is something, you know, the rest of it
was was defensible. It was Steph at first, Baron Davis second, Clay
Thompson third, Andrea Godala fourth, Kevin Durant fifth, Jeremy Lynn was sixth,
which is interesting. Draymond Green is seventh, Andrew Bogats eighth, and
I don't care was ninth and ten. So shout out to that fantastic ballot.
The Jeremy Lynn thing makes me think that it was a joke because I
hope so clearly that he was there for like a hot second. So at
twelfth we had JaVale McGee, who I thought about at ten. Same for
Zaza Patuli at thirteen and David West at fourteen. That was that was not
the only vote that Jeremy Lynn got because he ended up at fifteenth tied with
tied with Darrell Wright. At seventeen, we had Leandro Barbosa and Jordan Crawford
tied at Barboza wasn't a little bit higher. I know he was only there
for two seasons, but he doesn't deserve to be tied with Jordan Crawford.
At nineteen we had DeAngelo Russell, Festus Azeli and Kevin Looney, and tied
for twenty second we had DeMarcus Cousins, Jarret jack Ish Smith, Jordan Bell,
Eric Pascal Brandon Rush, and Marie Spates. We did also have like
nine different ways of spelling sean livingstone, so maybe he gets credit that nine.
Besides a W, what was the alternative was in ea N There was
a sah w N. There was an s h O n E. There
was an sa N Livingston, there was a living stone. Okay, yeah,
there were people got creative. The unsurprised Spates was so low. He
I was the only person who put him on any ballot. Shocked me like
mo buckets. He was he was an institution in Golden State for those three
years. That's the best way to put it he was an institution, I
wouldn't have I didn't put him in the top ten obviously, but I don't
think he objectively belongs in the top ten. But like I just I associate
him with those Warriors teams. Yeah, that's hysterical. That oh kind of
a rough Were you surprised that anyone didn't get any votes at all? That's
not on that list. No wiggins On, He's been like a half year
there, He's gonna get them. Be honest, Why is that anyone didn't
get any votes? I don't think so. I think we covered like basically
everyone who mattered to those teams. I think it was I was surprised that
that festist didn't get a little bit more love. Like I know that his
career was a little disappointing because of the injuries, but he was really good
when he was healthy for a little bit, Like it seemed like they had
another like blossoming star in him. I just can't believe no one, No
James Michael mcado, none at all, not at all, No Jordan Poole,
Well, Damian Lee, Kai Bowman, Like have people been watching this
season? We did get a Pashcal vote. I wasn't sure if anyone was
gonna vote that was That was from the one and only Jacob Borton. Yeah,
I wasn't going to name him again. I'm going to He's got two
shout outs on this post, on this podcast, and I'm not sure that
either of them are positive. No, he should not be top ten.
He could he was. He was a standout contributor for a team that had
was the worst record in the league, second worst record in the league.
This is the problem too, with the NBA being closed. I haven't looked
at the standings and forever because I haven't needed to, Like I've forgotten.
I could probably name the playoff teams, that's fine, but the lottery teams,
I have no idea where any of them are anymore. Yeah, it's
all a miss mash who knows. This was fun though. When we come
back, it'll be with the Houston Rockets. Until then, please remember to
rate, review and subscribe to us on iTunes or wherever else you consume your
podcasts. Follow Adam on Twitter at Framo zero nine. Until next time,
I leave you all with the shout out to the one, the only,
the legendary Vladimir Radmanovic.