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Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey Carl and Richard here with your twenty
twenty four NDC schedule. We'll be at as many NDC conferences as possible this
year, and you should consider attending no matter what. Ndcoslo is happening in
June tenth through the fourteenth. Get your tickets at ndcoslo dot com. The
Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Early bird discount ends
April twenty sixth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth
through the eighteenth. The early bird discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto
dot com. We'll see you there, we hope. Hey, guess what
it's dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Camp Richard, where
are you in the world Now? I am in Las Vegas where I'm at
the Microsoft Fabric conference. This is their new data analytics stack. And so
we're putting on a show with me in four thousand of my closest friends.
You know what's crazy is that Kelly has a friend who we don't know what
she does, but we know she's in it. And she said she was
going to Vegas this week to go to some Fabric conference and I had no
idea what it was. And now I know she's hanging out with me.
She might be and we'll talk afterwards. You can hook up with her,
you know what I mean. I'm not saying we up. I'm just saying
maybe made for coffee or tea. Because you're a brit you know. We're
going to be back here in May for dev Intersection. Yeah. It's gonna
be fantastic. And you're signed up for that one. Yeah, I'm really
looking forward to it. I'm going to be doing a Blazer workshop, I
think mm hmmm, yeah. I think it's called Carl Franklin's Blazer Workshop.
I believe it is. So therefore I'm the only one that can teach it.
I guess it's your workshop. That'd be dev intersection dot Com. Yeah,
I hope we'll see you there. Restrictions apply, void, we're prohibited
by law. Okay, order now get a free set against your knives.
See it's five o'clock here, I have wine. Michelle is in Australia.
It's eight o'clock in the morning. She just had brecky eight o'clock in the
morning. Tomorrow. She's in the future. Yeah, it's great love being
in the future. I wasn't going to have a bowl of seal, but
then I sat here and I was starving, so I was like, I
bet it eight alluhs, I'm not gonna last. So your podcast, you're
not gonna make it. We make a long show. We need to shine.
Yeah, exactly. You know, our hardcore listeners know that whenever we
do shows later in the day like now, that we tend to get little
punchy. So like, you know, I'll sell a glass wine. You
don't believe Michelle such a serious person. So right, I don't know how
this is gonna work. That's serious. All right, Well let's get on
with better no framework. All right, dude, what do you got?
I got something that's interesting and a little scary. I like it. So
this is a paper that came out from Microsoft on March thirteenth, This being
Show eighteen ninety two. You can go to one eight nine to two dot
pwoppwop dot E. It's a Microsoft paper entitled autodev Automated AI Driven Development,
and I'll just take the most interesting in sixtync paragraph from it. We present
autodev, a fully automated AI driven software development framework designed for autonomous planning and
execution of intricate software engineering tasks. Autodev enables users to define complex software engineering
objectives, which are assigned to Autodev's autonomous AI agents to achieve. These AI
agents can perform diverse operations on a codebase, including file editing, retrieval,
build processes, execution, testing, and get operations. They also have access
to files, compiler output, build and testing logs, static analysis tools,
and more. This enables the AI agents to execute tasks in a fully automated
manner with a comprehensive understanding of the contextual information required. You know, Richard,
anytime I hear AI and fully automated in a sentence or a paragraph,
I get the willies well, that's just your crap detector going off, gone
what sure? Yeah, well, I mean fully automated kind of means that
it has, you know, it has unfettered access to things. It's building
software. Right, Well, maybe it will, maybe it won't. I
think I think a person wrote that line and hasn't made it true at all.
It's a paper, not a product. Yeah, but eventually, eventually
this is going to happen, right, I mean, And the whole idea
is that software developers may, in fact, in the not so near distant
or distant future, become more supervisors than developers. Well, one would argue
they already are. They mostly supervise the utilizational libraries and glue them together.
Boy, you're just a curmudgeon, aren't you. You're like the AI curmudgeon,
got it'll never work. I'm just more of a Hey, you know
what, I've seen this play a bunch of times. Someone still has to
do requirements gathering, some still has to describe the problem space, someone still
has to validate it. You know. The code writing was the simplest part.
Yeah, oh did I mention this? It only writes Python lovely.
Well, that means it's all c under the hood anyway, So there we
are. Yeah, no, no offense to our Python programming listeners, because
Python is probably the most popular language in the world right now. It's yeah,
absolutely, and it's awesome. Yeah, what is the first javascripts?
You're probably right? Yeah, yeah, I thought you were gonna say,
Jason, and I was going to be sad because it's not a language.
It's for that. He well, anyway, that is when I have it's
it's certainly we're certainly creeping to this. And and I remember having this conversation
with you on dot net rocks in the two thousands Richard, yep. And
do you remember. I got to look up what show it was and maybe
an alert listener can remind us. But I said, you know, there's
going to come a day where a business person can walk up to a machine
and have a conversation with it, you know, either typing or English or
other language, and tell it what the requirements are and it would spit out
a fully ready to go qualified application. And you said that will never happen.
Yep. And it still hasn't. Yeah, it still hasn't happened yet.
No, but but you know, but we've seen we've seen papers like
this before the actually making it happen something else entirely, and I would point
you a copilot and power platform. Yeah, although you find the average business
person cannot describe a business process adequately to explain it to another human, much
less to a piece of suf. There is that problem. Yes, yeah,
Actually breaking down workflows is hard. It takes skill, and it takes
time. It does, and it also takes some kind of uh, some
kind of thing that we don't think machines have yet. Software machines don't have
anything. It's just software. Yeah, programs. I guess. All right,
Well enough of the philosophical bs. Let's hear who's talking to us today.
Richard Gravity comment tub show eighteen fourteen, the one we did with one
Michelle Mannering, you know, back when she was still Michelle Manoring at NDC
Oslo. We did it in person talking about this product called get hub Copilot.
It's the thing that's going to replace all developers. As I recall,
absolutely and Trudje and said, I've been kind of slow with gethub Copilot and
midtally this is now a year ago, but I started last week. This
week I got repaid in full. I cannot understand why I hadn't tried this
earlier. The suggestions from visual Studio good, but this is brilliant. My
current project is a CE sharp Blazer application using Entity framework for creating and seeding
test data to a database with repeating patterns. After the first three or four
entities, get hub Copilot got the grip and wrote almost entirely correct classes in
just a few time. That's because it was trained on Blazer train repos.
Come on, there you go, that's what it's all about. Yeah,
it's all about me. However, the difference is between the eneities made it
hard to just copy the whole class and change them the names Copilot did that
the first few times. By for it embraced pattern and created the unique code
I needed. I guess the result was about ninety percent. It required some
fixes, but all in all, I save so much time on the single
project that I guess get hub Copilot has counted as free for the next few
years for me. I'm seriously impressed. You know where get hub coopilot really
really works well for me is if I have things that repeat, like I've
got five or six lines that you know, I'm working with data in a
grid and there's controls in each cell, right, and it understands that I
have the what the data and the headers are in the grid, and I
make one of these blocks of six lines and then it just starts spitting out
the rest of them and it's like tabin or tabin or tabin or taber.
What I don't like about co pilot and Michelle will probably jump in here and
either agree or disagree with me. But what I don't like about copilot is
when it tries to read my mind and it's almost like like, okay,
here's a story. I have a customer in the studio who wants me to
work on mastering this solo piano CD right, and whenever I say, you
know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna and he goes, where are you
going to turn down the volume there? Or are you going to bring up
to five K there? Or are you going to be able to And it
goes on like four or five times, and then I just look at him
like, will you shut up and let me say what I'm going to do?
This would go faster. I have two answers, see you that go
ahead. So the first one is get off a copilot can't actually rad your
mind as feels like it might be able to read your mind. All it's
doing is taking context from the file you have opened. Any other open files
sounds like you use visual studios if you have other open tabs. It's taking
the context and that so sometimes client exactly So sometimes it does feel like you're
like, oh, it is trying to read my mind. You're like,
just just wait, like I am going to so a couple of things.
You know, you can just ignore it and keep typing over it, or
you can turn in line suggestions off and mostly use to get up copilot chat
picture. Yeah. What I like is if if you make a comment about
exactly what you want to do, and then it's pretty really really good about
you know, coming like Richard was saying, if you're able to articulate very
clearly what you want, you're going to get a response that is much more
or much closer to what you actually need as opposed to it just actually trying
to read your mind. Because as much as it feels like all these ais
can read our mind, they really can't. As I mentioned before, it's
a bunch of software. It can't read your mind. It can only take
in the context you're providing it, and it's data training set that it has
been already trained on. It's a good suggestion to turn off that inline stuff,
especially when it starts spitting out one hundred online of code solutions and you
finally your screen fills up with gray bloody blah they God help you if your
present, you need to go. It's a great technical term. Great blare
to use that. I like that. Let's say that today Hey trying.
Of course, you kicked off some great conversations. Thanks so much for your
comment. A copy of music Cobey is on its way to un if you'd
like a copy of music Codbey. I read a comment on the website at
dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there,
and if you comment on the show and I read it, we'll send you
copy music Goby. And you can definitely follow us on Twitter if you like.
We've been on Twitter for a long time or ex or whatever the hell
they call it these days. But the cool kids are hanging out. I'm
Master Don, I'm at Carl Franklin at tech head Social, and I'm riche
Campbell at masadon do Social send us a tuote, and of course, if
you're looking for more ways to get in touch with us or Meme particularly,
you can go to Carl Franklin dot com. Okay, let's bring in Michelle.
That person who was interjecting her brilliance there Michelle mish Manner's Duke no longer
mannering. Congratulations on your marriage much Yeah. Michelle Duke is a multi talented
personality in the tech and gaming communities. As a developer advocate, she gets
to create awesome experiences and engage with the vibrant GitHub developer community. Michelle has
spoken at over two hundred and fifty events on topics like AI, the future
of work, communication, teamwork, and has given technical demos. She is
a respected leader in the hackathon community, having one organized and mentored over one
hundred hackathons. Michelle has founded several tech companies, including an AI company,
an e scooter business, and as a result sits at the forefront of Alburn
science, tech, esports and startup scenes in her spare time. In air
quotes, Michelle is a streamer journalist and is always working on something exciting.
Catcher at an event or streaming on Twitch or on dynam Rocks yeah. I
actually haven't streamed for a little while. My computer broke recently, so I'm
reduced to doing not gaming and streaming at the same times. It can no
longer handle that. It's really hard on a machine to do to run OBS
and the game and you know, and all the filters and stuff. Yeah,
so I'm usually running OBS, the game a chat feature, which is
a JavaScript program that is scraping on my chat, my Twitch chat, so
I get to keep that and recording, and it's just it's got to the
point where I'm like, how old is my computer? Now? Okay,
it's five years old. I definitely need a new once, so I haven't
Why do I smell smoke? The benefit the benefit putting your tea on the
gun the CPU? Right? Yeah. No, It's one of those things
where like you turn the computer on and it just like loudly beeps at you
because there's something wrong and won't turn on, and you're like, now,
I really, Or when you're trying to write a presentation for someone and you
realize it takes off full twenty four hours to render the demos within that presentation
that are like a couple of minutes long, and then you're like that's not
right, sounds broken. It's like going on your computer on its way until
then. Yeah, so it's ordered, it's ordered. It's actually one of
those like fancy custom build ones tourn. I've got my graphics and branding on
it, and it looks it looks really awesome, like we just came back
from our honeymoon from Japan as well, so it's all Japanese theme and oh
I see, Yeah, timing matters. You were very Japanese centric when you're
giving a design, So tell me it's fancy on the inside as well.
Yeah, yeah, X five, forty nine ninety like something crazy. It
didn't quite go for the forty ninety. They're a little bit pricey still.
But yeah, we're up there. We're in like the forty eighty series.
We're in, soyeah, you go, that's right up there. Yeah,
exactly, thank you. I built an EPC during the pandemic and it's an
I nine and my fan is just about as deep as high as the case
is deep, and it's just one big looks like a radiator on a seventy
four corvette. You know. That's literally what they are, though, like
the radiators. So my one that had my old here was like this big
sitting which is about thirty centimeters big, sitting on top of a tiny little
like seaping chip that's like a couple of centimeters wide. And you're like,
why, but I've never had a more quiet computer in my life. When
I built the old studio, Richard, do you remember, I put a
hole in the wall so I could put the computer behind the waller room in
a different line I don't have to do. Yeah, yeah, I got
water cooling, water cooling, Yeah, o sid, I got water cooling
in the new one. It's that's how we know. And I also did
it like with one of those things where you're just like, those are unnecessary
amount of turns you've put in the water cooling and it's awful. Looks like
oh show, Yeah I got rid of the phase change. Coolers are good
enough. They're quiet enough. Use the big fans, the one forty millimeters,
the fourteenth centimeter ones are quiet, like you can get a machine right
down. Yeah, yeah, I mean, no reason to go hard.
I have water cooling, but then I also have ten fans in the computer
as well, so I mean there's very nothing succeeds like excess, right,
that's my line fully JFA everything like it's going to also use some photos when
it's done. It looks pretty cool. So, speaking of good co pilot
stuff, are you really going to adopt the grit? What did I say,
Gray bloody Blash, the Great Bloody Blas. I use GitHub copilot a
lot. I do. I do leave the inline suggestions on because I like
it, but I also use the chart feature quite a lot. It's just
the things you can do these days are just incredible. Like we heard from
the quote that Richard read out that it's saving lots of time. I've literally
just read like four or five articles just this morning on various companies and how
their productivity has gone through the roof of using it ub coke pilot. Even
you mentioned we got married recently, so like getting good developer, when you
get married, you turn to GitHub. So I use get up copilot to
build our the website for our wedding, and instead of taking like two four
weeks to build it, which probably what it would have taken me, it
took like eight hours. And the fact that it was able to suggest to
me like things I didn't really or probably wouldn't have quite thought of, like
it. As I was going through it realized what I was doing, which
is building a website for my wedding, and it said started suggesting things like,
oh, would you like a countdown time on your website? How about
a light box to show some lovely photos? The text version of Clippy,
isn't it basically like when you think about like, you know, all the
memes popping up is about you know Clippy and can I help you with that?
That is lit get up copilot is doing with your cod is like I
se you did agree? Is it a business grave or a personal grave?
No, it's for you Clippy, for Clippy Clippi. Have we defined really
a difference between because get how copilot chat came later? Right, the original
co pilot they didn't have the chata No, So the original co pilot was
the inline functionality. So the new getub co pilot has the two types of
functionality. Has that inline line congestion, so as you're coding, it will
show up that grade out text that you can accept or reject. And then
there's the chat feature, which is a little bit more like some of the
other ais that you may have interacted with, where you go in and you
type out either a question or something that you want done, and a copilot
can not just provide you with the code snippet for that, but a small
explanation of what it does, and maybe if there's any elements within that code
snippet that might need to be changed before it gets inserted into your code,
and then you can just insert that straight into your code block and it's same
as the inline code. It is built into the editor you already use.
So the GitHub coropilot Chat for vas Studio came out the end of last year,
so people have been able to use it since then. We just launched
I believe, let me just double check get a propilot chat for jet Brains.
It was on a wait list, I believe it is now it is
now generally available as of this month, so like only like a couple of
weeks ago. So now you can use it in Visual Studio and jet Brain's
IDs as well. So you have that get ub coropilot chat funct now.
So that's yes. Now I've used I've used chat GPT to help me with
programming things, and I've used GitHub copilot chat and the biggest difference that I
can see is that GitHub copilot Chat knows more about your application right off the
bat. You don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to pace your
entire project to chat GPT like you do with So the two main advantages of
Get up Copilot chat over say something like chativity because a lot of people are
saying, well, chat tip t is good. It does provide me with
code suggestions. It's like, well, think about it. Chattivity is being
trained on everything available on the Internet, and there's code on the internet.
Your think stack overflow. Even so chat tivit has that context behind it.
But GitHub Copilot chat because it's built into your editor, it has all that
context as I was kind of hinting at before, which is it has the
context of it being not just trained on everything on the Internet, but having
it trained specifically on code. So it's much more It understands code a lot
better and is optimized better for code. So that's the first point in that
it's training model is much more giared towards understanding code. And that secondly is
it has so much more context. So if you're using visual Studio, any
other things that you've written in the file that you've already got opened, that's
context, we get up copilot, any other tabs that you have open,
so other files that you have open either in one of your jet Brains ideas
or in visual studio or vs code. If you have other files open in
tabs, get up copart can see all of that. And that is all
context, which is why when you're writing things, you might be like,
how does it know what function of called something the file? How does it
know what that class is called? It's because it has that context. And
the other piece of context it has too, is your entire project structure.
So while it can't see what's in each individual file, it can see your
folder structure. So that means it can do things like, you know,
if you're writing a website, say, for example, it can point and
have the you know, the proper location pointer to your CSS file for example,
because it knows where you've stored it, it knows what it's called,
and all those kind of things. And because it then has that folder structure,
it can then see the extensions of all the files, which means it
knows what languages you're trying to write your project in. So it has a
lot more context. And chat chat doing context chattivity has is its training datap
just everything on the Internet and the prompt that you give it. That's it.
Yeah. One of the real problems I had with chatchipt, and I'll
tell you a little story just happened to me. I have this little tool
that I used to mege all of our YouTube videos and by hours, I
mean, you know, the dunt neet rocks. Every show is published to
YouTube, and the speaker publishing system that we use doesn't set the flag that
says it's not made for kids when they publish a show to YouTube, and
so you have to go in. And the reason why that's important is because
there are no comments. If it's made for kids, comments are turned off,
so people can't comment unless you set that value. And it has to
be set when you're creating the video, when you're uploading the video. The
reason and the reason I know that and I found it out is because I
had this conversation with chat gpt about how to set that after the fact,
and you know, it gave me the solution and I said, here's my
code boom, you know, and it said, okay, well, if
this is the case, then here are the things that you can check.
I could see my code but it's still told me that I should do things
that I was already doing in my code, right, and it's like you
can see this, You see that I'm doing that. Why are you giving
me? And the reason is is because it didn't have an answer. The
answer was and it didn't know the answer that it's a read only value.
You can only set it when you upload a video in the API. You
can only set that flag it's available, and you can try to set it.
But it didn't know that. Yeah. So chativity is smart but doesn't
know everything right, doesn't Yeah. And there's a really really great keynote at
one of the n DSA's recently on the different types of ways that charativity and
all the ais can get things wrong. So one of them is it just
doesn't have the facts, so it makes up something. Or the other thing
is it doesn't have enough information and while it's providing you with information, that
is what they call grounded. So it might be true for something else,
but it's not actually true for the context you'll talk about there. It might
have already been true in the past but not anymore, yeah, Or or
it's true for something else. So for example, when I asked chatter TIPT
to write a bio about me. It gets some things right, and then
it says that I have a PhD in like chemistry, which is incorrect.
I didn't know. You're so clever, I know, right, which is
I mean, I don't have HAD. I didn't do chemistry, I don't
have HD. But that information is grounded because there's another Michelle Manoring out there
who lives in New York who potentially has PhD. Right, So the information
is grounded, so it has a base in fact, but it is not
actually correct for me, and chat to PT can't distinguish between what we're trying
to ask about. The other example she gave was, you know, write
me a or give me some information about this airline. I'm going to use
Duke Airlines and exactly you know, tell me about Duke Airlines and chat units
that would be you're going on how it was an amazing airline, it was
always on time, top customer satisfaction, It flew like lots of roots around
the world and had like a fantastic and it doesn't exist, and you're like,
wow, this sounds really good. Doesn't exist, right, So that's
the whole Like AI hallucination thing where it just the thing is when you come
when it comes to the when it doesn't know the answer, it will just
say, well, I really have no you should It should work right.
It does. Sometimes it's like I can't tell you any further, and then
other times I shouldn't. It doesn't say that something that just makes stuff up.
Yeah, it just makes stuff up. Or it says, well,
clearly there's something wrong and you should check all these things that you're already doing.
But you know, a human would figure out a way to go look
for the answer. I was going to say to you. What I think
is interesting is that this is again a personal opinion. But what I think
is interesting is I doesn't mimit humans. Because you're saying a human will go
and look up the information, you'll find it out, not necessarily. I
mean most people, most I know, if they don't know the answer,
they'll make it up on the spot because they are incredible or worded. People
believe them, so they're off, you know, providing incorrect information as well.
I mean I'm definitely one of those people. I'm like, look,
if I don't know the answer, I will go and find out for you
because I know usually know where to get it from. It's the best of
being human and the worst of being human at the same time. And that's
what I think you're getting a chat chibert right, it's they train and everything
available on the internet, you know, not everyone the internet is good.
You do splash. So yeah, I think you're going to get those times
just give to just like to see, you know, at one point,
you know, when it doesn't know the answer, say well, aliens must
have something to do with this, right, you know, just like start
spouting conspiracy theories at least it that way that this is how I want you
to respond when you can't answer, I suppose. So, yeah, you
know, just making software do even dumber things. At the same time,
I've they're talking to some pms and they're I mean, it's not small productivity
provements. It's thirty percent a more code in less time, higher quality,
less remediation. Like these are big numbers. Yeah, yeah, I've got
some stats here. Actually they're just pulled up from a potent exactly what company,
But they said that their developers reported ninety percent increase in writing better code,
which I just think is insane. It's kind of subjective statement. It
is a little bit, but fifty percent more builds, which is not measurable,
which is measurable, eighty four percent increase in successful builds. I think
it's really cool. That's pretty big number. It's a pretty big number again
and a little bit more like subjective on like ninety percent of them feeling like
more satisfied and fulfilled in their jobs. Well, and that's the interesting part
about this, right, is that here's this tool arguably doing some of you
work for you, but you love it. You love it, and what
I think is really good, And this is something that came out from some
of the original research that we did when get ub copilot was first introduced,
and this is before all the chat stuff too, is that developers reported that
they, yes, get ub copilot was writing a lot of code for them
and you know, doing that, but they actually had to think less when
writing code, which I was like, it's not a bad thing, but
they follow up that statement with I have to think less, but when I
do have to think, it's about the fun stuff that sets off that spark
that makes coding fun again. And I think that's what I think is really
great about a lot of these ais. It takes away you know those blockers.
You know, we often get writer's block or coder's block, So it
removes those blockers, so we're not seeing there going or where do we start
again, So it removes that side of it. It writes a lot of
that repetitive, mundane code for you so that you're actually able to sit there
as a developer and do the thing that you would train best to do,
which is solve the problem, like what is the best way to do something?
If I give a problem or a task or project to fifty developers,
I'll probably get fifty. Some of them might be similar, but there's going
to be different ways of writing things. We all know as developers there's multiple
ways of doing something, and that's what you know. Some get up copilot
as well. It will often give you multiple suggestions or if you rephrase a
question, you'll get a different response. So I think the best thing about
being developer is actually looking at what we're doing and going what is the best
way to actually solve this and what is the best way to take this on?
I think what's really exciting. This is another personal opinion. We got
to take a break, but we'll be right back after these very important messages,
and we're back. It's starting at rock some Carl Franklin, that's Richard
Campbell and that is Michelle Mishmanner's duke, and we're talking about get hub,
copilot and AI and all those cool things. And you were just saying that
you think it's really great for removing those blocks, those things that you were
working on that you may have said, you know what, I'm going to
sleep on it or whatever. Now you can get there quicker. And I
was just going to add that it's also good for you to take inventory of
write down the top ten things that you haven't learned because you were afraid to
too busy, or you thought it was over your head, you could never
figure that out. Whatever. Take that list, go through it one by
one with co pilot or you know, your favorite AI, and you'd be
surprised at how fast you learn these things. Yeah, and so yeah,
what I was going to blow everyone's mind was my personalia. So what I
think a lot of these iis and things are going to do. Like if
we look back through history, we say where a lot of new technologies are
coming and people being really upset or skeptical and one I like to look at
is writing. So when writing was first like widely invented and adopted, people
got really worried that we're all going to become dumb because we no longer needed
to remember the things we need to remember. So if I needed to note
something back then, I was there. You were there, you were there,
Yeah, I was there. If I needed to know something I had
to remember, I could just write it down. I mean even today,
like I don't have to remember. I mean I still remember because I've just
got stupid photographic memory. But I don't have to remember. You're absolutely right
about that. Like I don't have to remember my husband's phone number, my
family's phone number, my work phone number. I mean, I remember all
of them because again, photographic memory. But we don't have to. We've
got a phone that does that for us. We were talking to Richard,
we were talking to Grant Barrett from Away with Words, and he mentioned that
in Aristotle's time, when you know, when people were writing handwriting, you
know they were these guys were against it because they thought, well, if
we're if that's cheating, we write it down, we can refer to it
later. We should keep everything in our mind. Exactly. But what actually
happened instead of everyone becoming dumb, is there's this massive wave of innovation invention
because all of a sudden, people's minds were freed up from having to remember
stuff that they could actually think creatively. And I think that's what's going to
happen. I think I'm bigger problems at a higher level exactly. So I
actually think that's what's going to happen over the next five to ten years,
is we're actually going to solve some of the world's biggest problems because all of
a sudden, people's time is free to and you know, it's the fun
stuff. We don't have to sit there, you know, doing a lot
of that mundane competitive stuff. We can do what those original developers are same
when we did the research, start to get up copilot, which is it
sets off this spark which makes things fun again, right, so we can
now spend more time actually, you know, thinking about how to solve these
problems. I think we're going to get this big wave of just cool stuff
happening. Again, this is all personal opinion, but I think we're going
to see a lot We've already had a wave in Richard, I'd be interested
in what you have to say about this. But we've already had a big
wave of people using it for nefarious purposes before you know, the and it's
a game of cat and mouse and ketch up with the you know, the
authorities in the security business. But not in gethub copilot. No, no,
no, no no, I'm just talking AI in general. Yeah,
but you know, I was thinking more in terms of the productivity boosts we
got when we got the dot net framework. Oh yeah, and you already
had an encryption library. I already had sockets and like you didn't have to
write all that stuff. And all the C plus plus programmers were like,
Dad, I don't want that's so lazy. Yeah, real programmers allocate and
deallocate their memory manually. Come on. Like, I just think it's a
really exciting time. Like I know a lot of people to get worried about
the whole you know, what if it takes my jobs and what if it
does this? And you know what, I again, personal opinion, there
are going to be some jobs that get get lost. That's just the reality
of every industrial revolution should move hard over to us, you know, since
the dawn of time. But I think with this song. What's going to
be really interesting is the majority of people aren't going to lose their jobs to
AI. They're going to lose their job to another human who's using AI.
So the people who can understand how how these things work, so understand AI,
understand the capabilities of AI, but more importantly understand the limitations of AI,
and you therefore, yeah, therefore, where they can add value as
a human, they're the people who are going to have jobs. It's exactly
my position. Yeah again tall personal opinion. I may play the role of
a lad eight for you know, for communic effect, but I'm absolutely with
you on that that you know this is not something to be feared. You
have to you have to jump on the horse and write it. So if
anyone is listening of like, okay, that sounds good, what do I
do, like, actually go and start using AI. If you're not using
AI, you need to start using it so you really understand what it can
actually do and then what it can't do if you And it's hit me that
developers uniquely sued for these kinds of tools kind of sad. Is the reason
Get Help Copilot took off first? Yes, because we get it. It's
just another kind of coding to describe a task to the tool, But do
you still have to evalue it. We're used to criticizing other people's code and
our own, and the compiler always gets the same. And you're right,
Like, you know, a lot of people just think, well, you
know, is it going to be this age where get up copil it just
writes code and ships it off. It's like, no, that's that's really
stupid, Like no one would do that, Like, no one would you
give a project to an intern and ship it off before you know, before
checking it. Right, it's kind of the same thing to get up copile.
In a way, we kind of go to treat it a little bit
like an intern in that sense that you know, we as developers are responsible
for the code we ship at the end of the day, regardless of how
much of it was written by an AI, which means as developers, we
have to be responsible for checking the code, checking the security of it,
you know, doing all those kinds of normal things that we would do before.
And I like your actorism, Michelle, because I'm sure people are going
to do that. They're just going to get well, you know, back
in the early days of chat GPT with a lawyer asked for citations from chat
GPT. Yeah, go fictional ones and fictional case. The soft there wasn't
in trouble, the lawyer was, the court doesn't care. But there was
an article recently about someone who used chat GPT and they didn't even bother changing
like you know, it was like hi, insert name here, like they
didn't changing any of that stuff. And you're like why, like what's what
is wrong? Like lazy? Are you? Yeah? Exactly? I have
to bring up something here. My friend and aphoenex colleague, Brian uh sent
me this thing called pseudo no Suno suno app dot suno dot ai and it's
apparently this thing that can generate music and it sounds like anything that you could
hear in a genre specific radio station, right, and we complete with singing
and lyrics and everything. And he thought this was the coolest thing, and
he said, so what I've I let it go for about a week.
Hecaes, what, no comment, And I'm like, Okay. From a
technology perspective, it's pretty impressive, but from a music perspective, it's soulless
and soul draining and just like crushing. Yeah, because because what it does
is you know, if somebody actually puts out a hit record, you know
that's completely generated by AI. It takes away all the integrity of real artists
that are doing real things. And it's you know, for the musicians out
there, get busy, you got a tour, Yeah, you got to
let people know that you're doing it for real. It's the same, right,
right. You know, I mentioned in my bio I'm a journalist,
right, so a natural a lot of people asking me, you know,
are we using chattivt And it's like, well, we're not. We know
a lot of publications who are using chat activity. We're basically told, like
in our our sphere that like if you use chatchivit, you're gonna get fired
because you're right, like, it's a lot of it is generic. It's
soulless. It's not like I mean they said, like, you know,
sure, go use it to like get some you know, get some like
a base of something where to start, but actually write something yourself, because
otherwise it is it is still plagiarism, right, rather, you're plagiarizing something
that's that just hadn't been written. But that's why I think a lot of
you know, we our news site, so I write for Upcoming. It's
a gaming and like esports kind of publication. So we kind of moved away
a lot from the like the generic news stuff, and so we write a
lot of you know, guides and interview type pieces because it's it's much more.
It's it's different content, but it all so is like that more heartfelt
and thought provoking stuff, and like writing a guide and exactly, and so
writing a guide like I write a guide, and this is why I love
writing my technology guides too, which you can read a lot of them on
dev two or like on dev is, I write a guide as I'm doing
it, so and like I'm got no knowledge of what I would have had
to do in the first place. That's why I love writing beginner content as
well. So and AI can't do that. They can't necessarily put themselves and
you could tell it to go, hey, write this on the perspective of
someone who's never done this, but it's really hard for an AI to do
that because it doesn't quite understand that human comment. It's like when you watch
a video or see some artwork. I mean, there's so much AI generated
artwork out there, and I can probably bet that majority of people, regardless
of whether they're working in technology or not, can pick up AI content like,
right, I've been able to pick up dally generated content because it has
a look about it. Yeah, exactly right. Do you notice this?
Yeah? Yeah, there's a specific look. Like I'm looking at this stuff
now, going that's a really cool picture of like a Pika two. But
I know that's been AI generated. And then you look into it has been
and everyone's like, how do you know? And you're like, you just
know, like you just have this like does this look and a feeling about
it where you're just like, it's been AI generated. However, okay,
However, the thing is is that we keep complaining about this stuff not being
as good as humans, and then it keeps raising the bar and raising the
bar, and you know, twenty years from now, who knows, right,
exactly right, Eventually it's going to catch up with our complaints. And
I am one of those people. I fall into categy again more personal preference
and personal opinion. I love the AI generated stuff because I think it's really
good for people who don't necessarily have that creative I want to have something different
in like I'm thinking here, too, Like I use a lot of it
for my presentations, right because I want something that is a little bit unique,
a little bit different, and I can't find exactly what I'm looking for.
So being able to use some sort of AI generated thing to create pretty
much what I want is really good. Now, a lot of people say
to me, oh, but that's taking work away from artists. I'm like,
well, on the flip side, let's look at how much work I
have on my computer and within my office that is created by an actual artist
that I commission work for. I do a lot of that kind of stuff
because those are the kind of like I have stickers I have on my Twitch
branding all that kind of stuff. But I'm not going to go and commission
an artists for every single PowerPoint slide that I want done, Like that's really
costly and it's actually not a good use of the artist time either. Like
I've got artists she is actually doing a PowerPoint slide for me at the moment,
but it's a reusable slide, like I'll be using it for every presentation.
Yeah, you're not taking work away. It's worked that wouldn't be otherwise
be done. It's the work that want to be done, because she's telling
me, she's like, I love doing this stuff, but it takes a
long time. Like I think she'd been working on it for about three months
now, like on a slide. Like it's you know, like if we
all wanted to go and commission it, like we just do way too much
work. It's I just think it's a bit insane. So I think having
that good balance of like being able to create things that are quick and easy
that we wouldn't have gotten artists to do, and then still having artists for
the really high quality, good work that we always want to do, folks
who have been Usingdali to generate the rough of what they want and then taking
that to the artist saying I want this but different, you know, in
this style looking at way good for a sketch. All right, So,
Michelle, I have a hypothetical situation for you. Let's say you have a
little girl, and you know she's five or six years old, about the
time that you might want her to start taking piano lessons and learning an instrument
is a really good thing for a child because you know, it can be
a comfortable comfort in times of struggle. It expands your horizons, like it's
just good for people to learn an instrument, whether you plan on being a
performer or not. And then the kid is you know, hip with the
tech and the YouTube and AIS that comes to you and says, but mom,
I don't need to learn piano. I have a program that does that.
Okay. So I got two responses for you. The first one is
I have four nieces, so this is a very much a hot topic of
conversation amongst my siblings. And second thing, I actually had someone come to
me when I was at State of Open Con, which was less than a
month ago. Young girl, she's in year ten or eleven, and she
literally said to me, why do why should I study computer science and software
engineering? I don't want to be a developer because AIS are going to do
everything for us, Like literally said that. This isn't even a hypothetical anymore.
This is young kids in high school saying I don't want to study yourself
by engineering because an AI is going to do it all for me. And
my response, yeah, exactly. And so my response to her was very
similar what we're already telling you on this podcast is that like AI can't do
everything like and she was like oh, but it's it is just growing exponentially.
I'm like, yeah, but if you have done exponential blog, it
does go like this and plateaus out right. We're still in the you know,
the upward phase. But I think there's going to gain personal opinion,
I think we're going to hit a point where we can't go any further because
of it. Whether yeah, we're basically there, but whether it's because of
limitation. There is another order of magnitude of data to be collected off the
internet exactly. So it's like whether we're going to be limitated by you know,
literal physical data points, the speed of electricity, whatever it's going to
be. There's going to be a limit point, right. What I think
is that there will, Yeah, there will be that limit. But the
limit that I think is more important is the public's rejection of AI and because
because it's going to produce so many Charlatans and so many so much phony stuff
that people are going to want to they're gonna learn, they're going to yearn
for human to human communication, contact sharing of arts and culture. Again,
it's funny they said the same thing about the telephone. It was going to
limit human communication. I think I think we're not there, Richard. I'm
saying, like, in the future, I think we're going to have a
situation where there'll be a rejection of artificial anything. I think to certain agree,
But my response to this girl was very somewhat we're saying here like a
counter everything you as the developer is still in charge, like we still need
to direct all those kind of things. So after a while she was like,
I actually want to starty computer sides now, So she got really excited
about the prospect of being able to then use AI as opposed to being wary
of it. And to your point about like, you know, the public
rejecture, I don't necessarily think it's going to be like a public rejection over
all of AI, because there's so many people in tech that are just like,
oh my gosh, it's stuff so cool. What I think we're going
to get again more personal opinion, is we're going to have the Ikea model,
which is there's gonna be a lot of stuff out there that's built by
AI and it's all got and you can tell it's being built by AI.
But then there's going to be certain pieces where you're going to go that was
built by a human and therefore it is bespoke, it is custom, it
is more expensive. So same with the Ikea furniture thing, is why I
use IQ. So many people have Ikea furniture in the house, right,
it does the job. But if there are no more furniture makers because they
all think, well why should I learn how to make furniture if I can
just buy it here? And then I think, because there will be a
lack of those people, that they will be the ones that are left being
able to do that will be sought out. So it's like a renaissance,
right exactly happened because of the depress and all of that. I think there
may be another renaissance, but in this in this situation, not a rejection
of technology, but just a recognition of human value. Yeah, basically,
And so like you might have lots of buy Kea furniture in your house,
but there might be one or two pieces that aren't ike and you spend a
lot of money on Now, as people, we usually can't you know,
generally and especially the cost of living, we can't afford to have every piece
in our home built by you know, a beautiful furniture maker. In the
same way we can't have every piece of artwork you know, in our house
because it's too expensive, but there will be those, you know, really
bespoke pieces. And I think you've hinted on something really important is that those
people who really understand that in their craft will get better at it so that
it has something different that AI doesn't. And I use that example because my
brother is a photographer and a videographer and he loves the AI stuff. He
was like, you know, it makes my job a lot, you know,
a lot of the things automated a lot easier, He's like, but
it's also made me a better photographer and a better videographer because now I'm learning
techniques and ways of shooting that's completely different that AI cannot do. And so
I think, you know, the smart people and the people who you know,
I have that more optimistic viewpoint are going to look at their craft and
say, how do I add a bespoke human element that people are going to
cover it, and that people are going to are going to be willing to
pay the extra money for it. And you can only see the horizon if
you get on the horse and ride. That's exactly right, And I think
it doesn't really matter. I think what kind of profession you're in. I
think that's going to be across the board, whether you're a developer writing,
you know, building a website, whether you're an artist, you know,
creating artwork, whether again you're you know, even physical things like furniture and
stuff like that, where I mean, that's already we're already seeing that,
because you know, there's robots that can manufacture for a future like at ridiculous
speeds. But I still want a nice bespoke custom. You want a story
rather, Yeah, AI has no story. Oh I generated this on AI.
Okay, but what's the story behind it? Yeah? The story.
The story is the prompt you wrote. Yeah, a lot of things like
especial occasions and things like that. People want that human touch. Weddings,
anniversaries, birthdays, those kind of things where people are going to want that
extra that extra quality and that extra human touch and knowing that that it's been
human touched. Yeah, yeah, very very good. I agree. Oh
my god, what else should we talk about, Richard? I don't know.
I think there was some copilot in here. Somewhere, there was some
copilot. I'm so we got off on that tangent. It's good because I
think it does prompt a broader discussion around everything. You know, I go
into the office, we need to keep that discussion going. Yeah, And
I go into the the startup office now and people come up to me and
go, hey, you're into this AI stuff. What do you think about
this? This? And this nothing to do with you know, get up
a copilt. But because it's just so ingrained in every conversation now, I
just think it's you know, every it's touching everyone. That that is why
we're getting this real just uproar in society about like everything happening, because it's
it's all, it's everywhere. You cannot turn away, and you can't.
You can't get away from it, essentially unless you want to go live on
a deserted island by yourself. Yeah. I know it's a lot of gardeners
who are too immersed in it right now. I think we are immersing it
in the industry. I do think it's just another set of tools. The
biggest problem that it has is the name. We've spent sixty years making crazy
movies where the AI tries to kill everybody. So gee, I wonder why
people are jumpy about this name. Well, it was like, I want
to did my popcom talk last year. I was like, didn't we learn
anything from like Terminator one or two or three or four or five? You
know, you're right, like, but the technology in those movies has nothing
to do with the technology of making here except for the name. It's well
said Wretchard, Yeah exactly. And I think what's interesting is I love looking
at some science fiction movies is because it shows what people's minds were actually thinking
would be potentially capable in you know, twenty or thirty years time. And
I think like some of the Cape Billy people always come to me and say,
oh, how far are we away from getting like Iron Man's you know,
Javis am I afforded there? Like, you know, that kind of
capability is already available. While it might not be commercially available in the sense
that you and I can't just go out and buy our own Javas, a
lot of those functionalities are already there. And you know Open Eye has already
put Chapter VT. I think it was five they put into a humanoid robot.
I don't know if you saw the new in Video Press the video Big
Conference in who are there? But you know, robots like they're just it's
like we created human eyed robots and you know, stuff them with all the
stuff from the Internet and you're like, okay, I can't see what's going
wrong at all. Yeah, all right, So ride the horse, get
GitHub co pilot, kitt gethub co pilot chat, use it. It's good
and you know you and find your way in the you know, in the
in the wave of the future. Find your spot on that wave and ride
it. That's that's it, and stop arguing with scenes from movies because those
aren't real. Well, and you know, anthromorphizing software is never good.
No, it's not. You're you're right, Richard, But it is easy,
right, just like it's easy for us to oh, I won't get
into the religious, but it's easy for us to answerpomorphize everything that is a
force that we don't understand. Humans prefer to most of the time. My
concerned is we're supposed to be the professionals and the regular mortals are being confused.
It's a freakular more they ask you those questions the muggles do. The
muggles come up to you and ask questions, Richard. That's a good bog
like qootball. Yeah, in a wizard. Well, we're the wizards.
We're having a lot of fun and it's useful for us to be responsible absolutely
healthy and health these these ordinary people who are freaked out because they've watched too
many movies. Yeah, and we're playing with the same thing, which we
know we're not. We're not, but they don't know. Yeah. And
on that note, Uh, Michelle, where are you going to be next?
Or what's in your inbox? Oh? So many things coming up,
but it's really exciting. We have kind of like our GitHub broad show happening
at the moment. So I GitHub Galaxy is really exciting, a bit more
geared towards enterprise. So if you go on to if you just google GitHub
galaxy, but it's galaxy dot GitHub dot com. And there's some really exciting
stuff that we're doing all around the world. We've got galaxies happening all over
Apak, all of the Americas, and all over Europe. So I'll be
doing the Melbourne one, which is happening in May. I'll be in the
Hong Kong one which is in April, and I'll be Interestingapore and Thailand ones
that are also happening towards the end of May. Then there's a couple of
NDC's coming up soon which is really exciting. We'll be there Serverallest Days.
I'm doing Serverallest Days in Sydney and Auckland for those people over down on note
with me, so you come see me there, and I think they're kind
of the main ones that are coming up. And then I'll be at NDC
also again, which wuld be really all right. We'll be there, yeah,
I'll be looking. Yeah. Well, Michelle, thank you. This
has been a great conversation. And I know we didn't stick to get help
co pilot, but I think our listeners like that about this show. We
tangentize, don't we Yes, that's not a word. Okay, sometimes we
go places tangent urize. This is all right, Michelle, thanks a lot,
and for you, dear listener. We'll see you next time on dot
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