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We're back with another edition of The
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jaschinski,

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culture editor here at the Federalist.
As always, you can email the show

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at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST.

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Make sure to subscribe wherever you download
your podcasts into the premium version of

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our website as well. It is
the two year anniversary, as you may

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have heard, of our disastrous withdrawal
from Afghanistan. On that note, I

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am very honored to be joined by
the authors of a new book documenting the

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scope of that disaster, Cobble,
the untold story of Biden's fiasco and the

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American warriors who fought to the end. I'm joined by those authors. That

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would be Jerry Dunleavy, who actually
just left his job at Washington Examiner recently

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to become an official investigator on the
House Foreign Affair Committee Affairs Committee's Afghanistan probe.

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So it's gonna be helping people look
into all of this. Wrote the

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book in his personal capacity, of
course, with James and James. Hassan

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is an Afghanistan veteran who received the
Bronze Star and assisted in veteran led evacuation

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efforts to people who know the story
so well, and again the book is

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called Cobble, The Untold Story of
Biden's Fiasco and the American Warriors fought to

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the end. So I'm going to
send you guys a question first, and

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you both may have different answers.
You may have several answers, but it's

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both a big question and the small
question at the same time. Was this

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book easier to write than you thought
it would be or harder to write than

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you thought it would be? And
I'll toss it open to whichever one of

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you guys wants to step in first. I'll take a stab at that.

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This is Jerry, So you know
I'm going to give the cliche answer I

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do. It was both easier and
harder, right, I mean, James

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and I we have been tracking Afghanistan
for years, and as a reporter,

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I especially jumped in to really start
to cover this as things start to go

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south predictably, so in the summer
of twenty twenty one, after Biden's sort

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of mind numbing decision making, and
so James and I came into it,

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you know, with a lot of
knowledge, me having written about it for

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a long time and James obviously having
served over there. But man, it

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was also harder. I wouldn't say
necessarily harder in terms of the process like

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putting words down, but harder because
of the things that we learned. I'll

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just point out one example of talking
to the gold Star families of the thirteen

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American service members who were killed in
an ice k isis K suicide attack on

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August twenty six, twenty twenty one, an attack by the way that we

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detail in our book. You know, more could have been done to try

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to that from happening. But talking
to those families, I mean, the

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stories are are painful, they're powerful, they're tragic, and you know,

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so it was it was it was
tough in that way because their their stories

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are tough, and you know,
they're their grief is just unimaginable. But

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I encourage people to to give Cobble
a read to see those stories, because

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I I think it's important to keep
those keep the memories alive of those of

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those thirteen, those thirteen young people
who you know, whose lives are lost

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during this debacle. Yeah, to
think back on that, I would say

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it was definitely it was definitely harder
to write than we anticipated, both a

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couple of different fronts. Uh.
It was an honor to right for sure.

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And when when Garry and I started
writing Cobble, we thought we had

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a pretty good idea of everything that
happened, and we realized that even though

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we were paying close attention in granular
detail at the time to the extent possible,

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we still didn't even know, you
know, a third of what we

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ended up revealing in Cobble. So
in that sense, it was harder just

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because there was the scope of everything, of all the mistakes and failures and

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their consequences. It's just so broad. But it was also it was also

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harder because you know, similar to
what Jerry said, Yeah, we spent

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a whole lot of time speaking with
you know, Jerry in particular, with

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a lot of the gold Star families, and yeah, I spoke a whole

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lot with Marines are at the Gates
eighty second or born soldiers, with you

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know, other people on the ground
as well, and hearing the stories that

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what they had to go through and
what they had to experience, which we

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document fully and Cobble was it's heartwrenching, honestly, and you know, especially

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you know, the marines from to
one. It's you're you're asking people to

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relive the worst day of their lives, and we're, you know, honored

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that they trusted us with that.
But even even before that, the things

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that they had to do. For
example, there are a lot of people

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outside the gates that had no connection
to the US, and there's no way

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that you can just let in.
Yeah, one hundred thousand people, we

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already evacuated. We did evacuate one
hundred and twenty thousand and and so there'd

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be people at the front who you
may have had sip upthetic stories, but

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they couldn't they couldn't let in,
and they people would grab the barrels and

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their weapons and pull them up to
their foreheads and the just shoot me now

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because you're you're condemning me to the
death, or you know, seeing the

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Taliban just beat and then in some
cases the execute Afghan allies in front of

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their within shot of the US troops
over there, or seeing babies trampled,

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young infants, mothers desperately trying to
save their kids while they were kind of

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getting trampled underneath as well, and
handing them out via some passing them over

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the wire and in some cases and
trying to throw them over the wire not

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going far enough, but you know
the graphic consequences that come from that.

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So in that sense, it was
difficult, but it was an honor.

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We hope people read it. No, that's very interesting because sometimes you find,

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you know, the problems are fairly
straightforward and the reporting process, as

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you guys know, if you're both
great at this, we'll just sort of

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flow naturally. But other times it's
overwhelming, it's emotional, and the scope

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is incredible, as I think is
the case with this book. So I

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was really curious to just hear a
little bit about the process on the front

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end. And actually, there's something
so important in the subtitle of this book,

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the Untold Story, and that gets
to it. Both of you just

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said, basically, is you know, even as closely as you followed this

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story, what you learned as you
dove into this with research and sourcing was

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in some ways revelatory and people should
buy the books. So don't give it

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all away here, guys, But
what are some of the big takeaways that

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really changed the story as you started
to dive into it. Let me talk

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a little bit about Bogram. So
Bagram Air Base was a very strategic air

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base in Afghanistan, and you know
the Biden administration, President Biden put the

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US military in a position with the
troop cap that he had put in Afghanistan

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where it was very difficult and perhaps
impossible to follow President Biden's troop level orders

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and to keep Bagram Air Base open. So what this resulted in, of

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course, was US having to do
an evacuation of the tens and maybe hundreds

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of thousands of people that we would
have had to get out of Afghanistan.

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President Biden's decision making didn't take into
account putting together a plan to get Americans

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out, to get Afghan allies out. He didn't have a plan for how

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to keep the Afghan military fighting at
least long enough to keep the Taliban that

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base so that we could get Americans
out and get our Afghan allies out.

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And we shut down Bagram Air Base. And everyone that we talked to US

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troops on the ground, and even
the command sergeant major who was charge of

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a shutting down Bagram recently testified to
Congress about this that everyone involved knew that

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if you're going to do an evacuation
from Afghanistan, you have to do it

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from Bagram, a defensible base.
It would have been safe, it would

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have been orderly, We would have
been able to continue to have strategic support

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there. We very likely would have
been able to keep the Taliban at base,

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certainly keep them away from Bagram,
but also potentially stop them from being

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able to take Cobble, which they
ended up doing unfortunately, but they probably

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wouldn't have been able to if we'd
maintained Bagram. But another important thing that

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I always point out, and something
that we nailed down in this book is

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that the terrorist who was able to
conduct this attack at Abbygate that killed the

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thirteen Americans, he was a prisoner
at Bagram. So his name is Abdul

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Rochman Alighari. He's a member of
ices K obviously now to cease because he

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can conducted to suicide attack. But
he had been captured when he attempted to

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carry out a suicide attack in India. Indian intelligence and the CIA worked together

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to capture him and his crew in
India handed him over to the United States,

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and so he was in Bagram in
a prison there called Parwan. And

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so there are a lot of reasons
to hold on to Bogram. That would

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have made an evacuation much safer,
much more orderly, potentially could have stopped

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to Taliban from taking Cobble. But
if we had held on to Bagram,

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that suicide bomber, the member of
ices K who conducted this successful attack,

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still would have been in prison.
But instead we abandoned Bagram. Taliban get

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two years ago yesterday, and the
first thing that they did when they took

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Pogram was they freed those prisoners ices
K, thousands of them, dozens of

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members of al Qaida, hundreds of
Taliban fighters. And you know, President

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Biden and other people in the administration
when we were relying on the Taliban for

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security at Kapo Airport, you know, they like to point out that,

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you know, well iceus K and
the Taliban or mortal enemies with each other,

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kind of suggesting that we could trust
the Taliban to stave off any ices

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kate attacks. But this suicide bomber, he was freed by the Taliban.

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So just something to really keep in
mind there. This was likely preventable in

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a number of different ways, did
not have to happen the way that it

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did, And you know it's on
President Biden. Anything to add to that

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James. Yeah, I think I
would. I would add just in terms

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of you know what kind of Gary
said, I had more of a global

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thought about the way that this all
kind of unfolded. And you know,

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one of the reasons that they didn't
eat baby, that they instead decided to

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try and conduct an evacuation out of
a single strip airfield in the middle of

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a dense urban center with high ground
all around them, was that President Biden

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made the potical calculation that he didn't
want, you know, more than a

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thousand troops in the country. He
withdrew it, drew the number down to

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six hundred and and he didn't and
if you're going to hold Bober, you

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need a few thousand troops. And
because he arbitrarily set what was a politically

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advantagious number, yeah, modern became
in feasible. And she did that over

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the express objections of the military brass
And you know, to speak to the

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second angle of problem, it would
be the State Department's complete unwillingness to even

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accept the idea that there might be
the need to be an emergency evaculation in

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you know, roundtable meetings beforehand they
would say military officials and bring up the

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terms called NEO. It's non from
Batan Evacuation operation. The NEO is the

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acronym military jargon for it. And
it would start talking about a NEO and

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they get shut down by members of
the State Department said, don't don't say

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NEO if we if we're doing one
of those, then we fail. And

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the military was trying to as a
writing was on the walls, trying to

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get the embassy particular to reduce its
footprint so that evacuations weren't next to impossible

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and that we didn't have a repeat
of the embassy hostage crisis in Tehran in

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nineteen seventy nine, and the embassy
wouldn't do it. In fact, the

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acting ambassador at the time said,
we're going to keep having an embassy here

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even if the Taliban takeover, because
we can't advocate for democracy under a Taliban

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government if we don't have an embassy. And just for the staggering amount of

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nitta, you know that encompassed in
that single statement is a good indicator all

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of the different terrible decisions and lack
of planning from sixth leven, and those

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two just didn't really set the space
for everything else. The Watchdolto on Wall

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Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every
day, Chris helps unpack the connection between

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politics and the economy and how it
affects your wallet. With crime and drug

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addiction continuing to skyrocket, the US
as the highest rate of central parent households

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in the world. Lbj's Great Society
resulted in and reliance on social welfare programs

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and destruction in the family unit.
Is there a direct correlation whether it's happening

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in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed.

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00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,679
Check out the Watchdolto on Wall Street
podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple,

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00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:39,840
Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That is incredible and it does seem

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to be so representative of what went
wrong. And that actually brings me to

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a question that your book gets out
a little Just as you were discussing the

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culpability here of the State Department,
the culpability of the Pentagon and military leadership.

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You know, it's at some point, how do we apportion the blame

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between leadership and we could even include
the White House and this as you're right

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about, where can fingers be pointed? Not just for the sake of Catharsis

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or anything like that. But for
the sake of actually preventing similar problems in

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the future and holding people to account
who left lives on the line, and

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in fact, some of those lives
were lost, I think a lot would

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blame. I mean, the ultimate
blame goes to President Joe Biden. I

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mean I noticed that. You know, I think a questions get raised about

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President Biden's age, his fitness,
is he really running the show entirely in

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the White House? And I think
often those are like fair questions to ask.

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But everyone should read the book Cobble
that we wrote, because we demonstrate

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that when it came to Afghanistan,
when it came to this withdrawal, when

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it came to this debacle, this
was ultimately President Joe Biden. This was

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his decision, These were his arching
orders. He didn't listen to anybody else

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around him. This was on him. Now in terms of the people below

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him, the Secretary of State Anthony
Blinken, deserved a ton of the blame

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here because the State Department did not
do what it needed to do to make

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sure that we'd be able to get
our American citizens out and to get our

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Afghan allies out, and you know, we ended up leaving many, many

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hundreds of Americans, well over a
thousand and tens of thousands of Afghan allies,

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the people that were our interpreters,
the people that worked alongside US troops

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for decades. We ended up leaving
those people behind. Despite President Joe Biden's

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promise, his promise, even after
the Taliban took over Kabble, his promise

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that we would stay until we got
all Americans out. And a lot of

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the reason why we weren't able to
do that successfully was because the State Department

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did not plan for this. There
was no plan to deal with something like

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this. And you know, they
they because of that, because of a

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total lack of planning, because of
their blindness the situation, because of them

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ignoring the realities on the ground.
You know, Americans are left behind,

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Afghan allies were left behind, and
you know there's there's still you know a

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number of Americans who are currently being
held hostage by the Taliban. Of course,

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I think that the military brass you
know, share some of the blame

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here as well. Now, to
their credit, every single military leader in

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general, it seems, told President
Biden, if you do this, if

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you do a conditionless withdrawal the way
that you're planning on doing it, this

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will end in disaster. Do not
do this, and he ignored them,

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but they're they're likely was more.
I think that the that the military could

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and should have done, and you
know, we point out in the book

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just one example of this is uh
General Mark Millie. He and President Biden

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and others in the Biden administration would
constantly inflate the size of the Afghan military,

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saying, you know, the Afghan
militaries three hundred thousand strong. I

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think it really at one point said
that, like when you combine their military

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and police, it's three hundred and
twenty five, three hundred and fifty thousand

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strong. But this constant mantra was
that the Afghan military was three hundred thousand

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people strong, totally untrue. I
mean, the Afghan military was much smaller

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than that, probably one hundred thousand
people smaller than that, probably more than

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one hundred thousand people smaller than that. Because they were conflating the size of

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the military and combining it with the
size of Afghan local police and stuff like

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that, which you don't do in
any other country. When you're measuring the

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size of the military. On top
of that, everybody knew that there were

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what are called ghost soldiers, which
is basically people that just existed on paper

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born really Afghan soldiers. Everybody knew
that that was the problem in the Afghan

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military as well. On top of
that, as they're continuing to make this

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three hundred thousand person, you know, military size claim, the Afghan military

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is falling apart in front of our
eyes. Everybody can see it. The

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Taliban onslaught is coming forward. We
have cut the Afghan military off from US

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troops, logistics, I SR contractors, and the Afghan military is falling apart.

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But they continued to talk about this
three hundred thousand person military figure.

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And the why why this is important
it is because they were whether they knew

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it or not, and I tend
to think that they probably did. They

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were misleading the American people about what
the facts were on the ground. They

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were trying to make it seem like
this Afghan military is going to be able

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to keep the Taliban at bay,
don't worry about it, and it just

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wasn't true. And I think that
part of what that resulted in was,

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you know, Americans who were in
Afghanistan. Hearing while the Afghan military is

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huge, they should you be able
to fight off the Taliban just wasn't true.

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And it's just one example of many
about how even people like Millie,

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who I think probably do a bide
in good advice about not doing the withdrawal

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the way he did, he still
ended up joining in some of the messaging

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that was incorrect and misleading and ultimately, you know, dangerous. Yeah,

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I'd like to add to that,
but saying I completely agree that, you

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know, the buck stops with the
commander in chief, and as we lay

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out in Cobble time and time again, Joe Biden's decisions at a very direct

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measurable connection the disaster that unfolded.
But to go down the order, I

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would say Secretary B. Lincoln deserves
a large share of the blame as well.

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The Embassy wasn't showing any urgency in
processing SIDS, the special immigrant visa

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special interest visas for the interpreters who
in some cases have been alongside Americans in

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two thousand and one, and despite
veterans groups and other advocacy groups highlighting the

255
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glacier case of evacuation or of those
visas getting granted they didn't even fly out

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the first planeload of SIVs until you
know, the first week of August,

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right before everything collapsed. There was
no way that you were going to get

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everyone out. And even if you
kept things on the timeline that they had,

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and by some miracle the military hadn't
collapsed entirely, it would have taken

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months, if not years, before
they ever got all of those people who

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served alongside of us and whom we
promised to take care of in a turn

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out of the country, to say
nothing of Americans. And and that that

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failure from the State Department also just
trickled down all the way through. They

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were at most thirty six consular officers
there to help process paperwork at the airfield,

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and that was that was at their
strongest. There were several days when

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there were only a few and they
would have well, the Marines were at

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the gates working in ships twenty four
seven, barely getting an hour to sleep,

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a lot of nights surviving on you
know nigteine and caffeine and you know

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whatever MRI is there, Yeah,
you're probably them to this shift. The

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counflor officers, State Department officials would
come in for about four or five hours

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and then you know, clock out
and all of a sudden, now you

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can't even bring people because especially in
the the day's leading up to twenty six,

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the twenty first, twenty second,
twenty third, people had to have

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their paperwork approved by someone from the
State Department said yeah, you belong here

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before they could get full entrance to
the airfield, which enraged the Marines to

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no end and ultimately probably led to
a lot of people being left behind who

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have to be And with regards to
the American citizens left behind, there's yeah,

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there's a direct connection between the number
who didn't get out of their own

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volition beforehand and the reassurance statements that
both you know, the Pentagon and the

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State Department we're putting out about how
they didn't anticipate any kind of collapse happening

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soon. A lot of them were
working for NGOs, their aid workers,

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were they you know, we're naturalized
citizens who've gone back to visit family members

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and then all of a sudden,
you know, and the point when I

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that narrative lapses overnight as it's called, and are driving through the gates and

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these people are caught behind enemy or
but even after the fifteenth, and Jerry

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will probably fill in the specifics here. For several days, the State Department

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was still charging US citizens money for
their flights to leave the country, which

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is just a domination. And Jerry, you want to build on the specifics

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of that, yeah, I mean, I'll just add to that. It

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just shows how totally unprepared the State
Department was for this, and they were

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doing what the State Department and the
National Security Council, we're still doing meetings

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on August fifteenth. August fifteenth,
the day before the Taliban took Cobble,

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they were still doing meetings trying to
figure out basic things like who should we

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prioritize in terms of you know,
getting out, and once we do this,

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we'll do that. Okay, well
we'll meet again, yeah, aprevating

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countries. Yeah, yeah, I
mean. And so they hadn't figured out

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basic things on the eve of the
Taliban takeover and they're like, okay,

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well we'll have another meeting tomorrow,
and then the Taliban takes Cobble, and

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you know, to to the point
that James brought up, it's so clear

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that we were so unprepared for this
that the State Department when you're when you're

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00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:40,799
an American filling out your form to
get out of the country, the talent,

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the State Department was still making you
sign a white promisory note to like

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promise to pay for the cost of
your flight out. And despite the Taliban

304
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literally having taken over the entire country
and including Cobble, and that just goes

305
00:26:55,519 --> 00:27:00,680
to how unprepared they were that like, it took them a while to like

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update their basic forms to the stop
charging Americans the cost of having to flee

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Taliban rule. And there's just so
many examples of that, and it's just

308
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it just goes to show the State
Department was not prepared for this, and

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00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:26,559
it had a devastating and sometimes deadly
effect Americans laft behind and Afghan allies left

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behind, and you know, some
of those some of those Afghan allies who

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were left behind have now been hunted
down by the Taliban. It's staggering.

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It seems to in some ways validate
the thesis that a lot of people have

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about, you know, such a
wealthy country, a powerful country, the

314
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most powerful military in the world,
not being able to perform basic functions.

315
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And in this case, you're talking
about the State Department but just a byzantine,

316
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:59,000
massive, well funded, powerful department
the most powerful country on the planet

317
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:06,960
and can not handle basic tasks,
has a naive perspective or expectation. Intelligence

318
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seems to be bad about what's going
to happen in the near term. And

319
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you know, I think a lot
of people look around and just ask how,

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how is this possible? So I'll
toss that question of both of you

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with the added question of just does
the are you still worried going forward?

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I mean it does. Did writing
this book make you sort of fear for

323
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the future because it seems as though
these problems are so now deeply rooted.

324
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It's almost like there's a decadence that
like, well, we'll spend millions of

325
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,240
dollars on silly initiatives, virtue signaling
initiatives, etcetera, etcetera, but we

326
00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:42,279
won't do basics to protect the lives
of American service members. It's just incredible.

327
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And so does that scare you going
forward? Having looked so closely at

328
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,200
it as you were writing this book? Yeah, it's just fregn everybody,

329
00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:56,960
frankly, and a Cobble has there
two chapters at the end of Coble and

330
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talk about how China and Russia and
Iran have absolutely exploited this to their advantage

331
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and that you know, for example, by recruiting and debriefing Afghan commandos who

332
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:22,079
has served alongside the United States about
you know, how does the US military

333
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:26,079
and Special operations community claim permissions?
What are their capabilities and what are they

334
00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:32,599
you know, how do they react
in X y Z situation, which from

335
00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:40,480
an intelligence perspective, it's a massive
liability. But but secondly, they also

336
00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:45,559
took you know, the message from
this that that America is weak, that

337
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:49,640
they can do whatever they want.
That that's going to have I think disastrous

338
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:56,319
consequences for Taiwan sooner rather than later. But but just from an institutional perspective,

339
00:29:56,839 --> 00:30:02,359
which is kind of the basis of
your question, yes, I absolutely

340
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,599
it scares me. I think it's
scare everyone. And just the systematic and

341
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:18,519
systemic failure that a really catalog and
in cobble it will be easily repeated elsewhere.

342
00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:25,680
But yeah, yeah, I think
that's that's it's a great question as

343
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,799
one that we definitely tried to address, you know, and all that I'll

344
00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:34,359
really all that I'll really add to
that is, you know, you brought

345
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,680
up the issue of the US government
seemed to be able to be unable to

346
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:45,640
perform these simple but very vital,
important tasks. And what I would say

347
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,400
to that is it's often true,
just because it's a massive government bureaucracy that

348
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,480
it's difficult. But in this instance, the reason why things went so badly

349
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,359
is because decisions were being made based
on politics, not based on reality.

350
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They were being made based on decisions
and orders from President Biden and not based

351
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,519
on what was actually happening on the
ground. And so when you have this

352
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:19,400
willful blindness, and when you have
the Taliban enemy sweeping forward as US troops

353
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,000
withdraw, and when you have the
Taliban sweep through the country because we hadn't

354
00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:32,039
planned for this, and because we
hadn't done what needed to be done to

355
00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:36,000
get our Afghan allies out, to
get Americans out, to keep the Afghan

356
00:31:36,079 --> 00:31:41,039
military functioning and on the field.
When when that happens, and when the

357
00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:45,799
Taliban is now controlling the entire country
and you're stuck in a tiny airport because

358
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:52,440
you've given up Bagram, it's really
damn hard to to do very much and

359
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,119
to do very much good. And
you know, to the credit of the

360
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,799
US Service, members who are on
the ground. They did incredible work with

361
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,319
the strictures that they had, but
man, they were put in. They

362
00:32:06,319 --> 00:32:12,920
were put in in an impossible situation, a dangerous and chaotic situation, and

363
00:32:13,119 --> 00:32:15,960
you know, it's it's just to
the to their credit that they were able

364
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,359
to do as much good as they
were able to because it was an impossible

365
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:27,720
position and them having to make life
and death decisions. And in terms of

366
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,559
the future, you know, like
James said, we have we have a

367
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,079
couple of chapters at the end of
the book that we talk about sort of

368
00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:39,680
the immediate more global repercussions from this. You know, we make a pretty

369
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:45,680
good case, I think, and
everyone should read it and cobble that Vladimir

370
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:49,079
Putin, I mean, he's wanted
to invade Ukraine for a while, and

371
00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:52,680
he invaded part of it, you
know, years ago, but he's wanted

372
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:58,839
to do a full invasion of Ukraine
for a while. But the chaos in

373
00:32:59,799 --> 00:33:04,200
Afghanistan and in Kobble, and the
way that the United States and NATO were

374
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,680
just in total shambles. I think
that we make a very good case that

375
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,759
that was the final push that Putin
needed to think that he'd be able to

376
00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:22,440
you know, win a decisive victory
in Ukraine because the US and NATO just

377
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,960
looked like they were falling apart.
And when it comes to China, you

378
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,279
know, the Chinese immediately seized on
this Chinese state media and their propaganda.

379
00:33:32,319 --> 00:33:38,559
They call it the Kabble moments,
the Kabble moment, and basically they immediately

380
00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:46,480
started telling the Taiwanese, see what
happened in Afghanistan, See how America didn't

381
00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:51,920
you know, protect its friends and
didn't get all of its allies out.

382
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,960
Well, that's going to be the
reality for you if you, you know,

383
00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:01,039
if you tried to depend on the
American because you know we're coming for

384
00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:05,839
you and the US isn't going to
be there, so you know, don't

385
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:10,920
bother fighting, it might be adds
one add one more think my to my

386
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,039
answer, just to build off of
some of what Jerry just said. Yeah,

387
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:23,000
there were absolutely politically driven and politically
oriented decisions which, if there's no

388
00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:29,920
accountability, are almost certain to happen
again. There was also a very dangerous

389
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:37,320
level of just ideology and group think
and to borrow your term from for you

390
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:44,039
know, perhaps a virtue signaling in
that for example, the US embassy and

391
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:49,800
COBBLEM went on lockdown in June,
and so you had plenty of and they

392
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,760
stopped providing them served because of COVID. People stayed in their rooms except for

393
00:34:54,039 --> 00:34:59,559
going outside to exercise alone for you
know, a few hours a day or

394
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:04,320
along in one. And because of
that, you had SIVs who were waiting

395
00:35:05,559 --> 00:35:08,320
for just their final interview and approval
so they could leave, and never got

396
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:15,239
their visas because by the time they
had new appointments. Yeah, after the

397
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,960
embassy reopened, I believe it was
early July or late June. Their new

398
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,480
appointments were scheduled for augustly keen of
August nineteen and by the time there was

399
00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:34,039
no embassy. So it's just it's
it. Truly the book has to be

400
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:38,400
read to be believe. But the
failures are mind boggle. We tried to

401
00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:45,960
the catalog one couple I can't imagine. That actually brings me to one question

402
00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:47,880
I really wanted to ask, which
is, and James, you'll have insight

403
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:53,400
on this, what has if any
effect, What has this had, if

404
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:59,920
any effect, on morale in the
military, and and maybe you have a

405
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,039
a beat on what morale is like
at the State Department but I'm especially interested

406
00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:08,559
in the military and for people like
Hugh James. I cannot imagine people who

407
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:14,920
served in Afghanistan, veterans of that
war, what this felt like when you

408
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,480
guys were reporting the story out,
Jerry and James, what did you find

409
00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:23,119
about how this has affected morale among
veterans and current service members? Yeah,

410
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:29,199
I can speak to that. Yeah, that was never a diplomat, so

411
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,320
I you know, I have less
of a be as much morale the State

412
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,559
Department, other than the individuals that
we spoke to thereis wasn't great. But

413
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:45,400
I can say for the military and
veteran communities this was for to begin with

414
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:52,000
veterans, it was you know,
I can say personally and for everyone else

415
00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:54,159
I knew it was. It was
a punch in the gut, Uh,

416
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:04,679
it was. It was just very
difficult to see and to process. And

417
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:10,880
and then for the individual soldiers and
marines that we spoke to, unsurprisingly,

418
00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:15,679
a lot of them, after what
they've just experienced and what they're you know,

419
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,880
going through and healing from, there
are a lot that are you know,

420
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,039
a lot of the ones are now
as left the service, did not

421
00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:31,119
realist or continue their service as officers. But those those who stay it's been

422
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:40,880
you know, incredibly demoralize it because
you know that the toughest thing I think,

423
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:50,639
or especially some of those a lot
of those marines, was the you

424
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,480
know what what they described or what
they proceed that as whitewash completely of the

425
00:37:55,519 --> 00:38:02,800
investor, Advygate and everything else.
And basically to see the administration and to

426
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,800
see senior penant On leaders say,
okay, well this tech can have been

427
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,679
prevented. But this whole mission was
basically you know, success. We did

428
00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:21,039
everyone, and you know they're left
dealing with or you know, especially we

429
00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:27,280
planned for this. That was That
was a line that the UH administration used

430
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:36,159
quite frequently, and you know,
that's impossible for them to reconcile with their

431
00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:39,000
experiences of everything I can describe at
the beginning of this podcast, just with

432
00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:45,719
the horrors that they saw, you
know, the chaplain for that marine to

433
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,239
twenty two one. I told them
at the beginning, before they started shifts

434
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,960
at the gate, you're going to
see things that no humans should ever have

435
00:38:54,079 --> 00:39:02,719
to see. And they did.
And then to yeah, see the yeah,

436
00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:07,960
the administration with Mayer and Sheet you
know, all the way down the

437
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,440
line. Actually, yeah, yeah, this is how things we're supposed to

438
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:20,119
be is just that that has been
incredibly damaging. I mean, I think

439
00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:24,119
James nailed at the the you know, the thing that the the service members

440
00:39:24,159 --> 00:39:30,760
that I talked to that I have
talked to, the ones that served during

441
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,800
the evacuation at Kabble and that were
there at the at the airport as the

442
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:42,880
Taliban is beating people in front of
them, killing Afghans in front of them,

443
00:39:43,039 --> 00:39:49,400
with with those Marines and those soldiers
unable to properly respond to stop the

444
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,400
Taliban because of the situation that Biden
and the military leadership that put them in.

445
00:39:57,119 --> 00:40:01,199
The phrase that that a lot of
them use is to phrase moral injury.

446
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:07,639
This is a moral injury, and
it's it's one that's long lasting and

447
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:13,639
maybe for some of them is going
to be permanent. And you know,

448
00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:16,639
again, it just didn't it didn't
have to It didn't have to be this

449
00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:22,920
way. It didn't have to be
a horror show. But a series of

450
00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:31,719
bad decisions compounding on each other just
ended in just total disaster. Right.

451
00:40:32,119 --> 00:40:37,079
Well, one question, just as
we're sort of winding down, this is

452
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:40,079
actually I saved. I don't want
to call it the best question, but

453
00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:44,679
it was one of the questions when
I heard you guys were working on this

454
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,360
book, I wanted to ask the
most because the media was sort of memorably

455
00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:54,800
puff on Biden. People remember those
White House press conferences in August, just

456
00:40:54,840 --> 00:41:00,559
two years ago, as the withdrawal
was playing out in real time disaster Usterously,

457
00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:07,679
the press didn't spare Biden, wasn't
necessarily pulling punches. But that said,

458
00:41:09,159 --> 00:41:13,800
you, you, as we said
earlier, have called this with the

459
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:19,719
untold story. And I have to
imagine that as people who have poured so

460
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,599
much time and energy into telling an
accurate version of the story and a full

461
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:28,079
version of this story, that there
is contrast with the people who purport to

462
00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:32,400
be writing the first draft of history
and what you discovered to be the real

463
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:38,199
story as you look back on it, How does the media coverage hold up

464
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:44,159
now that you've you've put so much
time and energy into researching what actually happened

465
00:41:44,159 --> 00:41:49,199
in couples at that August. Well, sadly, the you know, whatever

466
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,639
media toughness there was on the Biden
admin in August twenty twenty one very quickly

467
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:59,800
dissipated and went away. And the
problem with that is that, you know,

468
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:07,760
being tough in the moment for a
little while is easy. But finding

469
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:13,360
out the truth and pursuing accountability to
make sure that this never happens again,

470
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,679
it's it's hard, and you know, it might not be fun for people

471
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:24,719
who are politically inclined one way or
the other. You know, this this

472
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:32,400
debacle took a hit, I think
a permanent hit on Joe Biden's approval rating

473
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:38,199
and really just took the shine off
of him and sort of punctured this idea

474
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:45,519
that he was competent, punctured the
idea that he was you know, truly

475
00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:50,840
empathetic, and you know, it's
a it's a damaging story for him and

476
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,360
and and rightly so, because this
really was a disaster. There were broken

477
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:02,400
promises, and they're also on answer
questions and things that you know, that

478
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,679
we learned and that we're talking about
here, Like, like I said,

479
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:15,559
the suicide bomber his name and his
story, his imprisonment at Bagram, which

480
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:21,159
we then abandoned, and his being
freed by the Tali Dad which allowed him

481
00:43:21,159 --> 00:43:25,079
to go out and carry carry out
this attack. Biden administration refuses to say

482
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:31,519
this guy's name, and that's because
this is a this is a damaging story

483
00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:37,320
to them. And I will say
we didn't write the book with the purpose

484
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:51,119
of damaging Joe Biden. Just the
facts are that this is on him.

485
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,639
Did you have anything to add on
that chamber? Yeah, I muted myself.

486
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:00,760
That happens to me all the time. And then I had what I

487
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:07,119
thought was a very outcod point I
did not desentirely, Uh, you know,

488
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:09,559
come all the way through. You
know, what I would say is

489
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:15,559
that it was it was nice at
first, you know, during those first

490
00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:22,320
days to see that would be at
those briefings holding the White House accountable in

491
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,400
terms of, you know, how
many people have we gotten out, what's

492
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,440
the situation? You know, how
does the square with your previous statements.

493
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:36,360
But the best word that or best
phrase that I could use to describe me

494
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:44,360
a coverage of this entire tobacle,
which you know it was unparalleled in modern

495
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,840
American history in that you know,
a blue passport used to be a most

496
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,000
valuable document of world because it meant
that you know, if you from terrorist

497
00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:57,760
group has you, if you're stuck
behind any lines, or even if you're

498
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,400
a disaster zone, the United States
government will come to get you out.

499
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,920
And you know that that kind of
promise was just shredded, and we left

500
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:14,360
thousands of Americans behind. So,
you know, to see that curiosity and

501
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:22,519
that kind of willingness to explore and
reveal the whole story just dissipate the kind

502
00:45:22,519 --> 00:45:28,360
of left cobble. Uh you as
a passenger on the last flight of the

503
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,360
cobble once once we were out of
the country, that was it. So

504
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,840
the best phrase that I would use
to describe it would just be willfully incomplete.

505
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:42,639
And that's one of the reasons why
Jerry and I just spent you know,

506
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:49,400
a year and a half honestly better
part of two years researching this and

507
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,440
telling the story and Cobble because the
administration is not going to hold itself to

508
00:45:54,519 --> 00:45:59,000
account, and if the media is
not going to do it, that somebody

509
00:45:59,039 --> 00:46:01,559
does. M that's an excellent place
to leave it. I just want to

510
00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:06,360
congratulate both of you on the release
of this book. It is an achievement.

511
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,800
The book is called Kabble, The
Untold Story of Biden's Fiasco and the

512
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:15,760
American Warriors who fought to the end. We're joined today by Jerry Dunlevy wrote

513
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,159
this book in his personal capacity and
is now actually left Washington Examiner heading over

514
00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:25,159
the House Foreign Affairs Committees Afghanistan Investigation. James is an Afghanistan veteran who received

515
00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:30,559
the Bronze Star and assisted in veteran
led evacuation efforts. James and Jerry,

516
00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:34,880
thank you both for coming on the
show today. Thank you very much.

517
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,599
Thank you so much, Emily appreciate
it, truly our pleasure. Again.

518
00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:40,599
The book is called Cobble. You
can get it now. I'm Emilijashnsky,

519
00:46:40,639 --> 00:46:45,000
culture editor here at The Federalist.
You've been listening to another edition of Federalist

520
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:47,719
Radio Hour. We'll be back soon
with more. Until then, the lovers

521
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:55,880
of freedom and anxious for the Fray