WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:07.000 You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin, Gerard Raid and 2 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:12.279 from London Lawrence segalem Today on Redefining Energy, we're going to talk about the 3 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:17.719 future of the grid, the biggest machine, Laurent the manners our Milt. 4 00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:23.480 But first a world from our partner. Equina Capital is a sustainable investment company 5 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:28.399 headquartered in Hamburg, Germany. Equina Capital Investment realizes such as clean energy, 6 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:33.320 sustainable infrastructure, energy efficiency and growth private equity on behalf of its clients. 7 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:38.159 Yes, job degree is absolutely amazing. Is the boodline of the economy with 8 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:44.240 all the connection issues, with all the changes happening in the generation, in 9 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:49.320 the consumption. Now it's on everybody's radar. And of course there are the 10 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:55.880 three main challengers, which are decabanization, decentralization, digitization. It's not the 11 00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:02.439 seple does because the primary objective of the grid is related so any change. 12 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:06.000 And I like this image a lot. It's trying to change the engine of 13 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.760 a plane while it's flying. Yeah, and it's not easy. And I'll 14 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.760 tell you what struck me about it. Luran actually was National Grid has been 15 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:18.000 forced to innovate on a daily basis just to keep the grid up. But 16 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:23.319 at the same time they must have a zero error tolerance because if that grids 17 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:27.359 goes down, not only does Finton lose his job, but guess what happens 18 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:34.680 is those politicians lose their job as well. That's really really interesting. So 19 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:40.840 it's great that you introduced Finton Sly. He is the director of UK National 20 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:45.879 Grid ESO SO Electricity System Operator, so in fact it's the doctor of the 21 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.040 grid. Prior he was a CEO of Air Great Groups, so it's the 22 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.319 electric system and market the borodoy in Ireland. Oh yeah, yeah, and 23 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:56.560 he's at the cutting edge because look at the end of the day. Firstly 24 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.120 it was in Ireland where you've got lots of wind and it's not interconnect it 25 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:04.359 into any other system across Europe. And now he's gone to the Big Island. 26 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.120 He's gone to Britain and they have a similar issue, which is and 27 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:12.240 actually you know we saw on Q one that for the first time ever wind 28 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.039 generated more electricity than gas in the UK. I mean that's the stress he 29 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:19.560 has to deal with all the time. Right, exciting job and important. 30 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.840 Let's bring him in the conversation. Vinton, Welcome to the show thank you 31 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:28.639 here. Well, Finton, maybe let me just kick off by sort of 32 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.319 asking a little bit about what a grid operator actually does. I mean, 33 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.000 what do you do on a daily basis to make sure that we get twenty 34 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:40.159 four seven power? Great operators are really at the heart of ensuring that the 35 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:46.439 Twisty system is managing a safe, secure and reliable way. So on a 36 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.439 day to day basis, part of the job is we have a control room 37 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:55.000 that runs twenty four to seven that literally, second by second ensures that supply 38 00:02:55.120 --> 00:03:00.080 and demand are balanced. In order to ensure that that work in real time, 39 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:06.080 you obviously have a huge amount of processes in advance of that leading up 40 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.560 making sure that all of the outages across the system are planned, all the 41 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:15.120 maintenance that's needed as planned. And in addition to that, we're running a 42 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.960 market as well, because this is a competitive market, so that we're buying 43 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:23.439 services that we need in order to keep the system stable and secure. But 44 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:28.919 I think increasingly there's a role for grid operators in working with industry, policy 45 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:34.560 makers, governments and regulators around the energy transition because that is the challenge of 46 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:40.680 a generation in order to transform our energy systems and requires huge transformation of all 47 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:46.000 aspects of the valued chain across electricity, and because the grid operators are at 48 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.840 the center of that, there's a huge amount of work that we do therefore 49 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.800 looking at how we can do that safely and securely, and we need to 50 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.400 ensure that energy the lifability of the economy continues to flow minute by minute, 51 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.319 second by second. At the same time we need to transform it into more 52 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:05.840 sustainable and rely on sustainable sources of energy for the long term. As you 53 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:11.520 laid down very clearly, you need to work twenty four seven while transforming it. 54 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.839 And of course the big transformation and everybody's talking about the three ds decentralization, 55 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:20.279 so you get more and more sources, decarbonization which means more honable, 56 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:26.040 more termittancy, and digitization, which is behind each electrons thic there is a 57 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:30.920 set of data. So how broadly do you manage those three ds? In 58 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.920 order to manage those three I think that the solutions to some extent are mutually 59 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:42.920 reinforcing in that as we think about decarbonization of energy sources, we need more 60 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:48.639 diverse sources of energy on the system, and therefore that decentralization of energy sources, 61 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.240 and I think in the UK, what you lend up with is emits, 62 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:57.360 you lend up with a lot more decentralized, smaller disaggregated resources. But 63 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:01.439 we're also seeing the build out of large scale offshore winds, for example. 64 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:04.839 So the energy system in the UK in particular, in the future is going 65 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:12.000 to be a hybrid between that sort of large scale decentralized system and centralized generation 66 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:16.279 provided by things like large nuclear power plants or offshow winds. And then digitalization 67 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.680 is the thing that's driving huge amounts of innovation. It's the bit that allows 68 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:26.759 us to control and manage all of this in real time. Those three trends 69 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:30.560 are actually mutually reinforcing, I think, and enabling us to manage the system 70 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:35.680 and manage that transformation that we need to happen over time. Vinton I often 71 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:40.240 say to people that if you want to look at the future of the energy 72 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.519 system, you have to look at island nations, and otherwise you have to 73 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.000 look at the UK, you have to look at Ireland. And the reason 74 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.399 I say that is because it seems to me that it's just much more difficult 75 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:53.720 for a small island to keep things balanced than it is like being in the 76 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:56.319 middle of a continent. Am I wrong when I say that? Or how 77 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:00.759 do you see it? Electricity systems have their unique challenges, but in particular 78 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.680 with reference to sort of islanded systems, in particular where they're not connected by 79 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:12.639 AC power lines to other systems, then the challenges around system stability and frequency 80 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.199 management are much more acute because they don't have those sort of big, large 81 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:20.000 scale power systems to rely on. What you see in the UK, you 82 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:25.879 see it as well in Ireland, is that those challenges around stability, frequency 83 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:31.920 management, inertia are much more acute, and therefore some of the initiatives that 84 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:36.040 we're deploying are sort of ahead of what you would see in other parts of 85 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.639 the world. I mean, Australia is another good place to look for some 86 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:43.800 innovation as well. In terms of island nation you talk about innovation, can 87 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:47.079 you give a few examples of what those innovations are. One of the key 88 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:53.040 challenges that we're looking at in the UK is the declining levels of inertia on 89 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:58.360 the system over time, and therefore we've done two in a bit of things. 90 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:04.319 One is to create a market and procure inertia as they standalone service. 91 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:11.040 So traditionally on power systems. Inertia has been provided as a byproduct of large 92 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.759 scale synchronous machines just being on the system and providing energy. But as those 93 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:19.360 large scales synchronous machines come off the system and are replaced by wind and solar, 94 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:25.920 etc. At the inertia levels drop. So we have contracted for inertia 95 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:30.079 to be provided as a service onto the system and then that will allow us 96 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.560 to manage the system with less carbon emitting fosil fuel fire generation because we can 97 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:38.839 get inertia from other sources and that is ahead of what's being done elsewhere in 98 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:42.680 the world. And the other piece on inertia is that we have two systems 99 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:46.680 deployed now that actually monitor real time inertia on the system and provide that into 100 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.560 the control room, so that the control room engineers in real time on a 101 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:56.279 minute by minute basis, know what levels of inertia on the system, what 102 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:59.759 that means for stability, and what they need to do in order to manage 103 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.000 it. So both of those two things have enabled us to increase the level 104 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:09.399 of renewables on the system and push down ultimately the carbon intensity of electricity generation 105 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:13.480 on the system. Vinton. How is that inertia actually provided we have a 106 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:20.000 range of technologies coming on to it. So you're seeing is some flywheels, 107 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.360 some synchronous compensators. You're looking at some invert based resources as well with good 108 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.839 forming of vertica. So a range of technologies, and what we try to 109 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:35.360 do is avoid specifying the technology and just specified the service that we want ultimately 110 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:43.000 and therefore allowing various different companies and we have multiple participants bidding into those markets. 111 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.799 So initially we've got out with sort of multi year contracts because this is 112 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.240 a new thing and we know that people are going to have to invest capital 113 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.360 in order to provide it. So we sort of multi year contracts for the 114 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.039 provision of inertia and try to allow people to innovate and bring on the most 115 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:03.600 appropriate technolology over time. We looked at to sort of make those markets more 116 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.919 liquid and more competitive over time. If I look at the geography of the 117 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:13.039 UK, somehow you've get the same issue in Germany. Most of the wind 118 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.399 in the north and most of the consumption in the south. I guess that 119 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:20.759 create congestion, So how do you manage that? Yeah, it is one 120 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.559 of the really biggestsues in the UK. At the moment, the UK has 121 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:31.000 really great offshore wind resource, but that is predominantly as you say, in 122 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.000 the North Country, off of Scotland and coming ashore down. And what we 123 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.519 have done two things. One moving the UK to a much more strategic planning 124 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.960 approach for a network infrastructure. So instead of just looking at it on a 125 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:48.519 sort of large windform by large windfarm basis, we said, okay, UK 126 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:52.159 wants to get to fifty giggle, what's by twenty thirty and one hundred plus 127 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:56.480 by twenty fifty. If we stand back and assess, look, what is 128 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:01.240 the network infrastructure that you need to support that to Does that mean in terms 129 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:05.919 of an offshore grid? Can we plan that in a much more holistic way. 130 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:11.039 And we put forward a multi year, multi billion pound plan to basically 131 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:16.120 build an offshore grid that will deliver on those sort of government policy ambitions and 132 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:20.080 allow that generation whoever it's generated, and most an awful lot of it at 133 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.120 the moment is coming on the East coast of the UK, but we see 134 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.759 areas such as the Celtic Sea and the RC actually coming on in future years 135 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.960 as well. What we're doing I suppose in a nuts yet it's moving to 136 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.639 a much more strategic approach to how you plan infrastructure. But the really interesting 137 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:39.960 thing is as you think about a more poll system approach to it, so 138 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.519 not just electricity, not just thinking about the electricities generated or Scottland, how 139 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.480 do I get the electricity to the stud of the Biglan thinking about it from 140 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:54.000 an energy perspective, and how might that integrate with the emergence of a hydrogen 141 00:10:54.039 --> 00:11:00.519 economy in the UK. And could you, for example, dart the build 142 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:05.039 out of a hydraene economy with hydroene electalizers in Scotland and north of those constraints 143 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:11.840 such that you were moving potentially less energies out so you needed less transmission infrastructure. 144 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:16.120 And of course Scotland has huge oil and gas resources, has been hugely 145 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:20.840 successful in that and therefore there are potentially infrastructure in Scotland that could be potentially 146 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:26.279 repurposed around hygiene. That's sort of trying to take a whole system perspective on 147 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.279 this is really important and I think it's one of the reasons why the UK 148 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:37.960 Government, alongside the Energy Regulator in the UK off general, are moving to 149 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:43.440 create a future System operator so it will transition what is currently the Electricity System 150 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:50.279 Operator. So the ESO will through next year actually become a much more whole 151 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:56.080 system body, so it'll have responsibilities in gas planning and gas markets. The 152 00:11:56.120 --> 00:12:01.960 Electricity Stem Operator will transform into a standalone central body looking across the different energy 153 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:09.960 vectors and providing that whole system perspective to how should the UK transition towards net 154 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.960 zero and trying to develop those strategic plans in a much more joint up way 155 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.919 since you get a better answer for UKPLC overall. And I like this because 156 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:22.679 this has taken a systemic view. If I may say, I think all 157 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:26.480 we've done up to know is decarbonize electricity. But actually if you want to 158 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.639 decarbonize an economy, whether then you have to look at heat and industry and 159 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.360 other stuff and that requires a different view. That is one of the primary 160 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:39.960 sort of moves behind the transition of the current Electricity System Operator to that sort 161 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:46.240 of more whole system central body that will have that perspective across those different energy 162 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:50.240 vectors. So the plan is through next year this organization will be stood up 163 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.200 and it will be separated out of an astrobod PLC, so it'll be a 164 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:58.639 stand alone organization in public ownership, so owned by government but completely operationally independent 165 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:05.519 of comment, and having that systematic whole system view across those different energy vectors 166 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:11.600 that will be really key to the success of the UK and accelerating that transition 167 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:16.759 towards net zero and twenty fifty. In relation to that twenty fifty vision, 168 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.960 there was this document published by the government recently called powering Up Britain, which 169 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.879 have not read, but I've run some research from keywords and the world interconnect 170 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:33.759 of appears thirty two times. Let's still interconnected on Sorry, my questions very 171 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.799 long. So interconnector how would you see the value of being interconnected with other 172 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:43.960 grids the future energy scenarios that we look at. Across all of the scenarios 173 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:48.200 we look at, we see an increase in interconnection because that does deliver value 174 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:54.399 as energy systems decarbonize and more renewables build out, not just across the UK, 175 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:58.559 but in other energy systems as well. That diversity of energy sources but 176 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:05.480 diverse city of geography will be really important in ensuring the supply and demand balance 177 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.120 across all of the geographies, and therefore interconnection is really really important in that. 178 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:16.440 The other piece I would say I think is that increasingly we're seeing a 179 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:22.960 conversation develop around how do you think about our interconnectors in association with offshore wind 180 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.200 farms, in association with potentially offshore hydrogen production, and indeed some of our 181 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:33.440 European friends are looking at that in the context of energy islands. But how 182 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.440 do you think about interconnection and offshore wind farms and hydrogen production then, and 183 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:43.200 the how do you think about those together rather than a sort of series of 184 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.600 individual things. And we see all of those things as really really important because 185 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:52.840 the UK has massive ambition in offshore wind that has massive resource and therefore building 186 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:58.360 that out, but building it out in a way that potentially uses multipurpose multipoint 187 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:03.519 interconnect seems like a really really sensible way to do that, and we see 188 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:09.679 the start of some of those conversations at the moment around multipurpose interconnectors emerging in 189 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.080 the UK. I would expect that as governments continue to talk, and we 190 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.600 saw announcements recently of the UK and several other European countries talking about the North 191 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.320 Seas developing out when resourcing that that it will be done in a much more 192 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.879 coordinated and joint the way between countries as well, So not only having a 193 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.600 joined up off your grid for UK infrastructure, but also looking at how does 194 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:37.080 that tie in with other jurisdictions and geographies will become increasingly important. I think, 195 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:39.519 Finton, can I ask you about what I call flexibility, which for 196 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:46.080 me is the demand that you can move and also maybe even supply that you 197 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.000 can move. And I'm thinking about whether it's hot water storage and people's homes, 198 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.879 or batteries or even evs, how do you integrate this type of stuff 199 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:58.120 into the future system. Flexibility is absolutely critical if we're going to make this 200 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:03.519 transformation, Jared, There's been a huge amount of development and progress on the 201 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:07.080 supply side of that with battery storage, and we see that coming in the 202 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.559 system really really rapidly. So a lot troups of batteries developing with different business 203 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:18.519 models from energy arbitrage through to load shifting through to provision of system services. 204 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:23.279 And that's great. We're only at the start of the journey to fully integrate 205 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:29.759 the demand side flexibility into the system. We've seen some really really positive results 206 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:36.200 recently. So over last winter we introduced a new demand flexibility service was introduced 207 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.840 really quickly with cooperation of industry, largely in response to the energy crisis that 208 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:47.639 was facing UK and all of Europe following Putin's of legal invasion of the Ukraine. 209 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:53.159 That service allowed households to move their demand out of peak period on specific 210 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:57.399 days where we notified that there was an issue and get rewarded by their suppliers 211 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:02.320 for doing that, and that was available down at a household level, and 212 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:06.279 we sort of really really good take up by that and a lot of positive 213 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:11.839 coverage across the media around that. So we see that as something that we 214 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.200 are going to continue to build on. The product itself will get more defined 215 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:21.160 as we sort of learned from what we did, and suppliers continue to sort 216 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.359 of engage with their customers around what works for their particular cohorted customers. So 217 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.279 that is incredibly positive. I think it's something that we will build on. 218 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.759 And the other one we're seeing you mentioned evs. We are seeing some of 219 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:38.440 the supply companies aggregate up evs in a tariff and then bid that into the 220 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:42.880 market and we're starting to see that come on now as well, and that 221 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:47.559 has the potential to grow I would think quite significantly. So some of the 222 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:52.440 suppliers are offering really inno bitive tariffs where customers allow them to move the charging 223 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:56.359 of their evs in response to price at a wholesale level. On the customer 224 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.079 side they get a lower tariff, and also some places where they're actually aggregating 225 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.880 up then the EV charging and bidding it into the market, which is really 226 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:07.799 really great to see. People are going to continue to innovate around that space, 227 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:15.319 and the increasing proliferation of digital technologies into all of this will allow innovative 228 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:18.720 products to become developed, and that's what's going to really get the demand side 229 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:23.799 active, is that innovation through digital technologies. There is a myth flowing in 230 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:30.559 sudden media saying, oh, if all the transportations that actuified the grid's going 231 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.839 to meld it down? Do you want to kill that myth? The bunkit 232 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:41.200 TVs and the electrification of transport provides a huge opportunity, if done in a 233 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:47.480 smart way, to actually help with the flexibility and management of the system. 234 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.759 If everyone were to just plug in their EV at six pm and to force 235 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:56.599 the charge, then you could see demand rise through peak periods. But with 236 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:02.359 the proliferation of digital technologies smart charging, there is a real opportunity for consumers 237 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:07.359 to be so for EV drivers to benefit because they will get lower tariffs and 238 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:11.799 lower energy into their evs, and for the system to benefit because it will 239 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:18.359 get that increased flexibility. One of the aspects of the energy transition will undoubtedly 240 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:23.839 be a move to increasingly electrify elements of the energy value chain, So you 241 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:30.400 will see a move to increased levels of electricity consumption across the economy, in 242 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.359 part because elements of the electricity value chain, as Jared said earlier, are 243 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:41.160 easier to decarbonize. So we are definitely going to see that and that will 244 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:47.720 undoubtedly need more infrastructure to be built as we go forward. But set against 245 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:52.559 that is the ability to deliver some of that additional energy consumption in a much 246 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.920 more flexible way, which actually helps the system. Done properly, this can 247 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:02.480 be really really helpful as we think ab out that transition to net zero. 248 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.960 Finton, can I also ask you about what the Germans called this dunkel flota, 249 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.559 which is this January day where demand is high because we need heating and 250 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.000 guess what, we don't have the right weather conditions and there's no wind, 251 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.559 that there's no sun. How do we solve that going forward. So the 252 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.519 issue of resource adequacy over the long term, it's something that we're spending a 253 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.559 lot of time analyzing and thinking about because undoubtedly as the energy makes changes and 254 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:33.839 you get more renewable resources on, you need to think differently about your resource 255 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:40.319 adequacy and reliability metrics. What is absolutely clear is that the reliability and security 256 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:45.200 of the energy system has served the UK and European economies really really well to 257 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.920 date, and that we need to make sure that we don't as we engage 258 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:56.920 in this transition down grade or reduce that overall reliability of the energy system because 259 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.240 it is the lifebuob of the economy and what we defer need to do is 260 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.559 look at what is the overall resource mix, so it's not just wind and 261 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:10.880 solar, and just in a UK context, you will likely have significant levels 262 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:15.240 of interconnection with other countries. You will have an element of nuclear, you'll 263 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.240 have an element of hydrogen probably in an element of carbon capture and storage and 264 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.759 all of those bits. What we need to make sure is when you combine 265 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.799 that with the storage that will be in the system, both from sort of 266 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.559 potentially explicit battery storage and or demand flexibility, that you can meet the requirements 267 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.559 for electricity and energy, so you can meet the demands even in the context 268 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:44.799 of significant number of consecutive days of low wind and sort of dull solar conditions. 269 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:47.839 So it's a portfolio question, jerred. I suppose right, it's it's 270 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:49.640 how do you make sure that the portfolio, when taken as a whole, 271 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:56.359 delivers the required level of reliability? That is the critical question, and I 272 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:02.519 like question will be okay, So you discuss with your colleagues whether it's PGM 273 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:06.640 okay, So air cut in Texas Australia, I guess you off. Of 274 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:12.359 course, are you discussing your problems innovation solutions together? Absolutely. And one 275 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:17.559 of the really great initiatives that we have been involved in in the last few 276 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:22.000 years has been the establishment of what's called the Global Power System Transformation and Consortium, 277 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:26.880 and that was set up by a number of system operators at the start, 278 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:33.519 which included ourselves Energy Dead in Denmark, EMO in Australia, KLISO in 279 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.640 California, AIRCT in Texas and airgood from Ireland, coming together with a number 280 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:42.759 of leading research institutions from around the world, Imperial here in the UK and 281 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:51.519 in the US to do two things. One share among ourselves best practice, 282 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:59.720 but to also leaveridge those research institutions to enable us to push the boundaries of 283 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:04.079 technology and what was possible. So those system operators are all at the forefront 284 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:11.680 of decarbonizing their energy systems, and therefore by coming together with those research institutions, 285 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:17.240 we can ensure that that research is focused on pushing the boundaries of technology 286 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.880 and pushing the limits of what's possible. So that's the first thing that it 287 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:26.160 achieved was doing that. But the second thing then is to take the collective 288 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.200 knowledge of those system operators and indeed other ones that we're working with closely around 289 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.720 the Europe and North America and other places, and apply that in countries that 290 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:41.119 are at an earlier point in their decarbonization journey, So talking to them and 291 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:47.519 working with them and helping share experience and technology with them so that they can 292 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:52.319 effectively leap frogd some of the technology and operational problems that we have solved, 293 00:23:53.079 --> 00:24:00.079 and through that make a step change in global decarbonization of energy systems. So 294 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.480 that is one of the really cool things that personally I'm hugely proud of, 295 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.839 and as an organization, we're hugely proud to be part of well Finturn. 296 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:12.400 It was really great to have this conversation and I think it's fantastic to see 297 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:18.079 that you're all collaborating together. We understand the direction of travel and it's great 298 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.640 to have some very scious and professional people around the action. Keep up the 299 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:32.240 great work job. I'm relieved. Why why the ship as a real captain. 300 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.000 Yeah, yeah, he's a good captain. The Brilish Grid is in 301 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:45.319 good hands with Fenton. It's really thoughtful, like he really knows exactly what's 302 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.519 going on and what needs to be done. And there's a lot of people 303 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.279 just all around the grid complaining all the time. But the way they innovate. 304 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.400 Also, what I found very interesting is the way they collaborate all the 305 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:02.559 grids together. They share best practice and so on. That's very reassuring. 306 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:04.799 Well, listen, if you remember the round we went and did a visit 307 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.960 to the National Grid control room like last year. Right. What is amazing 308 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.079 really is you can see that they have a great team. It's not just 309 00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:17.440 Finton, it's a great group of individuals there that are highly committed to what 310 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:19.119 they're doing. Right. It's like a maestro, you know, Yes, 311 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:25.960 his orchestra, all the maps of the wires and you see that gigantique fifty 312 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:29.599 yars, fifty years, fifty years, all the computer, the system, 313 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.160 but of course there's a lot of engineers around it to just make it sure 314 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:37.720 if we stick to our fifty years. It is one of the most sophisticated 315 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:42.319 grid management on the planet. And I know that they are looking in new 316 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:48.279 type of cables, new type of software, and there's these are superpro and 317 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.319 I'm glad we could have him on the show. And actually, what I 318 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:55.119 think is again, if I look at the UK, they are at the 319 00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:59.799 forefront of renewable integration because they have to do by themselves. It's not like 320 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.039 Germany, which sits in the center of Europe and can push its problems onto 321 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:07.079 its neighbors. Let's be clear, that's what they can do, right, 322 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.279 because you've got one big system that's interconnected. So if Germany has too much 323 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.960 solar, guess what its neighbors does too, and the neighbor has to deal 324 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.839 with the problem as well as Germany. Well, the UK has to deal 325 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.799 with its own problems straight away. And it's also wind based, so it's 326 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:23.799 like wow, you know, as well as I do, a big gust 327 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:27.480 of wind comes up and suddenly you've got more Mega what hours than you expect 328 00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.640 and you have to deal with that on a real time basis. So anyone 329 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.079 who wants to look at the future the gridge, you look at the UK, 330 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:37.279 you look at Hawaii, you look at Ireland, you look at Australia. 331 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:41.400 Well yeah, that's the end of episode ninety nine and the next episode 332 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.720 is episone one hundred and we have great guests. Can I ask you how 333 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:51.400 many years we've been doing it now it will be five years? Oh my 334 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:56.839 god, time flies. You look engler than you did five years ago around, 335 00:26:56.839 --> 00:27:00.880 so it's been good for you. Okay. We thank Aquila Capital for 336 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.519 their continuous support and job. I talk to you in two weeks time for 337 00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:11.599 episode one hundred. Look forward to it. Thank you for listening to Redefining 338 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.839 Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe on Apple, Podcast, 339 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.039 Spotify, or the platform of your choice.