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Hello, and welcome to Open minds
UFO Radio. I am your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I have with
me Jason the Christmas Elf. McClellan.

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Well, I am short, so
elf is appropriate. I'll take that.

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How you doing, Alejandro? Good? Good, But it's certainly a compliment.

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So like I saw the Hobbit the
new one last week, and Lego

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lists, you know, is kind
of the coolest warrior elf out there,

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and the chicks dig that. Dude. Yeah, yeah, but I'm not

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I don't know. I guess elves
are Okay, you never really loved elves,

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but really I love the elves there. They're the coolest. I'm alright

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with elves. Yeah, they're cool. I like them. They're cool,

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dude, And they're immoral at least
on the Hobbit, aren't you. Yes,

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But that's right. You're not supposed
to tell people that secret. So

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we're getting ready for the holidays.
Happy holidays, Happy holidays. This is

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our holiday episode, in fact,
and you have special plans for the holidays.

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You're not supposed to tell them that. Oh really, we are so

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full of secrets. Yep, you
always spill the secrets. No, nothing

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too special. I'm just gonna run
away to Vegas for Christmas. That's special.

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Yeah, pretty cool, that's awesome. That's way awesome. I did

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that for Thanksgiving. Yep. So
I'm excited because I had an amazing trip

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and I bet you will too.
Always do. And I told everybody about

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the Freemont experience where they had alien
abduction kind of show going on there.

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Yeah, that's really cool. I
remember hearing something about that, and then

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when you talked about Area fifty one, I posted a video today. Yeah,

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that's very cool. I want to
go see it so you could see

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it on my YouTube. It's stupid, but the storyline especially is really dumb.

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It's corny, but yeah, so
weird, and you know, they

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have these aliens that are sticking scissors
and probing people with a laser and it's

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really weird, man what they're thinking. And it's called Area fifty one,

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so well, Vegas is kind of
weird. It is definitely so yeah,

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so you'll have to check that out
when you're there. You can see just

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a snippet of it on my personal
Alejandro Rojas YouTube. I think it's called

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Ali Buddha. That's one of my
nicknames, Al Buddha. That's the Buddha

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inside of me, my Buddha hood, Buddha hood. Yeah, so I

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guess I should tell people who the
guest is. The guest is Nick Pope.

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Nick Pope of course worked for the
MOD in the nineties as a UFO

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investigator. He worked the UFO desk
and the MOB being the UK's Ministry of

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Defense and that's pretty cool. So
of course we've had him on the show

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many, many times. But he's
written a book recently with two of the

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main witnesses of the Rendelsham Forrest case, the case that happened, you know,

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appropriately for this show on Christmas.
Actually a couple of days after Christmas,

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there were UFO sightings in these US
spaces in the UK, very famous

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cases. I'm sure you recall them
because we've had a lot of interviews about

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this recently because it's kind of started
up more controversy and more news, and

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that John Burrows has been able to
get some more files released by the UK.

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Really cool stuff. John Burrows being
one of the witnesses, and he

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having his medical records suppressed for some
unknown reason for that period of time,

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and he having health issues that he
believes are a result of those events.

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So really interesting stuff. We talked
to John Burrows about that, but we

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do talk to Nick about that.
Also. There's other controversy because you know,

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there's more contral virtual aspects of the
case as to whether they happen or

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not, and and some people have
been upset with Nick Popen and the authors

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of the book and the way they
handled some of that, and so we

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talked to Nick about his point of
view on that. And so we talked

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to him about a lot of stuff. And I think it's really cool,

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some interesting information, I think,
and I think we're able to get some

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stuff out of him that he probably
has not said. And I think he

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even said that has not revealed anywhere
else before. Bomb Well, and it's

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very good timing of you to have
that, like you said, around this

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time of year. It's appropriate.
And we're going to have more about this

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topic at the UFO Congress coming up, Yeah, because we're gonna have John

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Burrows and his lawyer, Pat Prasconia, who we had on the show as

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well. But yeah, very interesting. I mean to have a guy this

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is certainly novel, something new for
this field to have a lawyer who's representing

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someone about a UFO case. I
mean medical issues stemming from a UFO case.

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And this lawyer is familiar with defending
veterans against the United States government to

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get records released. So yeah,
very strange, new kind of stuff here,

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looking forward to it. It's going
to be a good addition to the

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Congress. So this will be a
great show, perfect for this time of

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year. Do you know why.
Why Because it's the most wonderful time of

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the I wanted an excuse to see
I knew you were going there. We'll

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see people. I might be singing
some more later on, so stay tuned.

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But before we get into the interview
with Nick Pope, and before I

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do anymore singing, let's talk some
UFO news. How about that, Jason.

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I like that idea, okay,
And the first I want to bring

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up the first story. I'm gonna
switch things around a bit. I hope

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you don't mind. And that's only
because I want to talk about a Christmas

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story, all right, go ahead, And not that it's that popular on

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our website, but it's the only
Christmas story that we really have unless you

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can think of another. And I
just think it's interesting. I think we

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talked about this a couple of years
ago. I don't know if we talked

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about it last year. Probably we
did. But it's just interesting that again,

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speaking of the UK, since we
have Nick Pope more and more and

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now the news is saying more often
than not, Nativity plays in the UK

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put on by little kids include aliens. What's going on over there with the

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UK and aliens? Jason, Well, you and I have talked about this

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at length, and I think they're
just cooler than we are. But they

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they love to incorporate it seems,
you know, as an outside viewer,

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it seems like they are really open
to the idea of incorporating aliens and and

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and you know, using it as
an educational tool for creative writing classes.

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We see it a lot in their
their curriculum at schools and popping up in

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the Christmas stories, the Nativity plays
that the children put on, and uh,

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adding aliens to it, I mean
they go. It seems this year

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and maybe last year, they're moving
away from just purely alien stuff. They're

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like adding fairies and other you know, elbs, paranormal and strange things too,

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just to be absolutely crazy. But
the extraterrestrial element is there. Just

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like in the schools we write a
lot about that with the staged ufoshes and

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alien invasions and things to give the
children something to write about, a creative

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writing exercise. So I don't know, and we said this before. I

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don't know if all these teachers went
to the same like teaching conference and somebody

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had this great idea, here's an
idea, have children stage a UFO crash

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and have children write about it.
And they've just kept doing it. But

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it is interesting to see how much
extraterrestrials pop up in the schools there and

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what children are doing and these aren't, you know, just here and there.

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It seems like lots and lots of
schools, and very nice schools too,

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from what we can gather, are
doing this. So I like the

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idea. I would have loved to
have had some of this incorporated into my

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curriculum as a wheelad. But interesting
to see it. And we have seen

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a little bit of it creeping across
the pond here so but certainly not as

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much as over in the UK.
Yeah, according to these recent stories,

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more often than not they will include
aliens that else as new as they did

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surveys to ask parents, well,
what do you think of this? Idea,

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and the parents said, well,
we don't like it, we want

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it to be traditional nativities. But
of course the teachers argue that, well,

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we're trying to engage the students,
and the students like this, so

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that's why we're doing it. So
very interesting, and I just think it's

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interesting for the impact that it has
on this field as well. You know,

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there's been a surviveed at a survey
of who believes in extraterrestrial related to

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many different factors, one of those
being aged, and it showed that younger

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people are much much, much more
apt to believe in that. And I

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think we've got a future where,
you know, I recently did a talk

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on this where I don't think,
you know, those of us are interested

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in this field have to worry about
this topic going back into obscurity anytime soon.

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That it's a very prominent kind of
concept that's just, if anything,

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growing and becoming more of a not
just conversation piece, but a topic in

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the mainstream. And you know,
I was thinking about it and even more

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unlikely that these types of plays would
take place here in the States, because

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a lot of schools don't really have
nativity plays because of the religious aspect,

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and they don't even have Christmas plays. They really go to great lengths to

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find these non denominational, non specific
winter plays or holiday plays, and they

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get really bland and don't really feature
much more than some sparkly lights and some

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snow. You know, the one
I went to for my girlfriend's daughter at

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high school. She's in dance,
and they have these chorus people come out

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and do some chorus singing, which
is cute, and then they have the

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dances which are just kind of,
you know, some contemporary music. And

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I don't think the teachers know what
some of these lyrics mean, because,

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you know, instead of anything you
know, holy, it's like these nasty

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you know these days the songs.
I keep saying this. I remember when

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Two Live Crew came out and it
was a big deal and it was,

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oh my gosh, what are they
saying? And now every song seems to

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be pushing that that's on the you
know, radio and the hip hop songs.

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So they're playing this music and these
girls are dancing to this pretty racy

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stuff and some of it, you
know, are these double entendres and stuff

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where I don't know if the teachers
know just how nasty these songs are so

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Yeah, things have certainly changed since
my day. Yeah, you sound like

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a crabby old man. Yeah,
well I am, dang it. No,

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I'm not very chrect or your favorite
word of curmudgeon. Yeah. So

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yeah, so cool stuff, so
interesting stuff. And that's our Christmas story

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because really, I don't think there's
any other Christmas UFO alien type of story

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in the news or that we have, not any of that come to mind,

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not that we've written about recently,
that's for sure. Well, what

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UFO story does come to mind that
you would like to share with the listening

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audience. Well, you know,
we've got a lot of stories to choose

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from here, because I think it's
been a couple of weeks since we did

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the last has. Yeah, so
a lot of stories to pick through here.

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But I do want to mention this
story that generated a lot of headlines

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about the mysterious whatever captured by a
camera aboard the International Space Station. You

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know, people saw this light and
it looks like some object shoots a laser

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beam down towards Earth or something.
So you know, people are thinking that

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aliens are trying to communicate with us
or shooting at us or something. But

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definitely something unusual captured on camera by
the ISS camera and possibilities were offered.

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I mean, the very large telescope
that the Europeans based organization owned or Observatory

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owns fired a laser and they do
this periodically to create an artificial star that

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helps them calibrate their telescopes. And
that happened on the day that a video

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was uploaded to YouTube saying that you
know, this thing was captured. But

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as we posted, a more likely
explanation is this new instrument on the ISS.

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It's called the Optical Payload for lasercom
Science or OPALS, and it's a

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new laser based communication system that they've
been testing aboard the ISS. So that

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is likely the explanation for what people
saw because it does exist and you can't

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see this laser. But the confirmation, you know, a lot of skeptics

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we'll say, we're pointing this out
and just writing it off as okay,

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we know exactly what it was when
there wasn't necessarily direct confirmation that a test

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took place on the day this video
is recorded. And a lot of people

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were citing to an article that was
published by Discovery News about this OPALS instrument

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that had a quote from somebody from
NASA's JPL explaining how it works, and

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people were quoting him saying, oh, this is what he said the laser

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was, or you know, he
was responding to the video saying that what

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was recorded on the ISS camp was
this. I never saw anything that had

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him directly responding to the alleged UFO
or this particular video. People were pointing

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to this quote that he gave Discovery
News. It was just a general article

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about this technology, about this instrument
aboard the ISS. It wasn't directly in

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response to the particular incident in question. So he wasn't saying I saw the

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video, that's what it was.
It was just a quote from him explaining

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how the system works. Mm hmm. Yeah. So again, and I

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saw so of the getting it wrong
again exactly they were. They were taking

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something, taking it out of context
really and applying it to what they thought

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was being said, but wasn't actually
what was being said. So, you

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know, tossing something to the wind
saying oh yeah, it's I've already been

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figured out. This guy said what
it was, but he didn't actually say

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pertaining to that particular video. Sooe, you know, you and I love

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to love to bitch a little and
complain about people who who like to throw

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things away pretty quickly, but I
do personally think that's most likely what it

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was. It makes sense, and
it it does line up with with how

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they describe the system works. So
I wanted to point that one out.

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Yeah, interesting, and I mean
I think we get upset. I mean

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it's it's concerning when uh UFO websites
get it wrong. But I think for

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the most most part, they do
it because they're not journalists. They don't

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do it every day. I think
it's it's often, you know, done

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just a genuine mistake. But there's
I get so frustrated when mainstream media does

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it because they don't have any excuse. This is their job. They're supposed

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to be careful about their sources and
how they frame what their sources are saying,

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making sure they get it correct and
accurate. And when it comes to

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UFO cases, sometimes they just use
what the UFO website suppoor work done there

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on some of those sites or like
this, they get it totally wrong and

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out of context, and that's really
frustrating. And look, we do this

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with stories we write about. We
we say what we think something is an

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idified object or something, we offer
up our best suggestion based on our experience

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as people who do this full time, but we don't conclusively know. We

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say, there, this is a
possibility, and it's the strongest possibility,

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most likely explanation, but we don't
know. Yeah, well, and you

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just did it yourself. You believe
ople's probably is the what it was.

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But you're still clearing up that you
know, this science, what the scientist

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had said, and putting what he
said accurately right based on what I can

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track down based on the published dates
for the test that they've done with this

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this instrument. You know, I
personally haven't seen the evidence that leads me

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to believe this is absolutely what it
was. You know, it's a possibility,

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and it's a strong possibility because it
makes sense everything. You know,

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there's nothing to suggest that it's not. But I don't have that confirmation.

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So I put it in my most
likely the identification of what was captured on

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the video. But I don't know, and I'm not going to say absolutely

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that's it, and I'm not going
to stop, you know, reading articles

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about it and dismiss it and say, oh, I already figured that out.

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Yeah, yep, because we're not
sure on that one yet. No.

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Yeah, I want to point out
another ISS one because unfortunately, and

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people you know, may get disappointed, a lot of people point out weird

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stuff on the ISS, and unfortunately, for the most part, it's usually

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stuff that's explainable. Not always,
of course, but I think for the

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most part, because there's lots of
weird things floating around and things look weird

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in space. And I love this
story just because this Italian astronaut, she's

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the first Italian in space. She
was on a Soyuz spacecraft recently, the

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last one that went up there.
There was a Russian her and an American

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on this Russian spacecraft docking with the
ISS. As they were docking, she

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screams out and she's like, you
know, essentially, from what I understand,

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it's kind of like, oh my
god, look at that kind of

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thing. And the it's funny because
the Russian kind of goes he says do

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or something like that, but it's
these that mean calmed down, calm down,

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calm down in Russian. And prior
to that, about a couple of

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minutes prior, actually more like four
minutes prior, you see this little white

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thing kind of cruise across the screen
very dimly, which could be anything.

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I mean, there's so much debris. I think most likely that's what it

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is. So in this video,
a lot of people have speculated, oh

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my gosh, you must have seen
that UFO and freaked out. However,

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they if you go back to her
daily log, they're kind of taking her

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daily log out of context because she
explains the thing completely in her daily log,

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and Italian News had written this up, and the Italian News was kind

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of making it seem like it was
her referencing the UFO. But if you

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read the story, and you can
even see in one of the videos,

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at one point, the ISS lights
up this bright orange and she saw that

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and that's when she made her exclamation. She's says that in her log,

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and she asked the ISS guys about
that, you know, what was this,

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and they said that happened, you
know, at the right time during

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the sunset, the sun hits us
and it lights up the craft really brightly.

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And she was just so amazed by
this, and I think it's it's

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cool to clear up that, you
know, she wasn't referring to the UFO,

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but Also, I don't know,
ever since I spoke with and I

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guess the movie Gravity does this for
you too, and the photos themselves,

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but ever since I spoke to that
astronaut Mike, I forget his last name,

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but astro Mike is his Twitter.
Really cool guy, and he talked

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about just how amazing, you know, how just overwhelming the view is from

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up there in those spacecraft, and
I just always think of that, and

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I can only imagine I just kind
of, you know, sympathize with her.

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Just moments earlier she was on the
Earth and here she is now about

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to dock with the ISS, and
how just breathtaking some of these views would

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be where it would be difficult not
to kind of exclaim kind of an astonishment

264
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some of the stuff that you see. Absolutely I agree with you. And

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in space, you know, it's
just like here on Earth, with so

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many conventional things being mis identified as
unidentified objects in the sky just because they

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look bizarre. There's something that people
aren't used to seeing, Like you know,

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people haven't seen Chinese lanterns or things
like that, or how drones in

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the sky. So so many things
in the sky. I know, there's

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a good changing to see something that
you're not used to seeing in the sky,

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so it looks strange. And in
space, man, that's got to

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be compounded so much because you're dealing
with a completely different environment. You know,

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things floating around, behaving differently than
they would hear in our atmosphere.

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So everything is going to look so
as you're seeing it for the first time,

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got to be just incredible, and
everything's got to look confusing to you.

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Yeah, yeah, it's got to
be amazing. So and really that's

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the main driving force, probably one
of the main driving if not the that

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I'm in this field and I love
the idea of space so much. I

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mean, I was an engineer major
at first because I wanted to be an

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astronaut for a while. I wanted
to go to space, and that's what

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you know, really, I just
would love to go to space. And

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that's why I'm so interested in commercial
space ventures and all of this, because

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and it's just got to be so
incredibly amazing. Agreed, my friend.

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But I think I'll wait wait a
few years to go to space. Yeah,

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I'm thinking about a good idea.
Thirty years I'll go to space.

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Yeah. By the time I get
to space, yeah, well, I'll

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need a that'll be a pretty old
fella. It's okay, you'll be mostly

288
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robot by then and it'll be okay. Oh yeah, that's cool. That's

289
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a good roboparts yep. Yeah,
awesome. So did you have any other

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story you wanted to share with these
people? I think, so let's talk

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about this move on report from Ohio
where a witness they filed a report.

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This guy and his wife say they
were driving in Ohio and it'saw an alien

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run across the road. Oh yeah, so it's pretty interesting. This happened

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on December twelfth. You're Carmel,
Ohio, and the wife I think,

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filed the report with Moufon and said
that a couple they were driving in their

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truck. They're driving down the road
and this alien just kind of darted across

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the road in front of their car
and ran into the woods. Now,

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she says her husband is a skeptic. He's almost sixty years old. He's

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a proud marine, and she says
he wouldn't have admitted seeing this strange alien

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if he hadn't been in shock.
So when they got home, he sketched

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from his memory what he thought he
saw in this alien in and he described

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it as being asphalt gray in color, about seven feet tall, no arms

303
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that he could see in muscular legs, and the the legs were bent backwards

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there the knees bent the other way
from ours, kind of like a like

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a dog's leg or something really weird
looking thing. He sketched, I'm running

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across the road, so who knows
what this could be? You know.

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The mouf on investigator in the area
kind of joked and said he gave the

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the report to the local local media
and he said, I'd like to get

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this information out in your area in
hopes that maybe someone else has seen it,

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or that their giant crossbred ostriche got
loose or something. So, I

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00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:52.079
mean you could see the ostriche.
Yeah, they're with the strange legs running,

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but who knows what this guy thow. I mean describing it as seven

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feet tall too. It's difficult to
judge height, especially when you're driving down

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the road, and who knows how
fast they were going. So it's it's

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you know, it's interesting. We
just have their their testimony and the interesting

316
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:12.960
sketch, but yeah, when you're
driving, it's hard to really see details

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and things, especially when they're darting
across the road. Yeah, really weird.

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And some people when I posted this
on the moof on one of the

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moof on forums with a lot of
people in it, a lot of people

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were saying, Oh, it's got
to be a bird or sandhill crane or

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something like that. But who knows. I mean, the witnesses most likely

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would have recognized if it was something
like that, but it's so hard to

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say. It's one of these where
it's you know, when you're not there,

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or it's hard to say what a
witness may have seen. Yeah.

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I mean again, like anybody who's
had an animal dart across the road in

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front of their vehicles. You know, depending on the animal, sometimes you

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really can't tell what it was and
you start piecing it together in your brain

328
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later you know, oh, yeah, that's what I think it was.

329
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But you know, I know I've
had have Alina dart across the road and

330
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deer and different birds and squirrels and
rabbits, and sometimes they just look bizarre

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because they dart out so fast and
you're driving so fast, so there's very

332
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.359
little time to process things in your
brain. Yeah, and I don't want

333
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to be too mean here, but
I do want to address some of our

334
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Facebook readers. Thank you so much
for looking at our stories, but please,

335
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:33.720
for God's sakes, this is my
Christmas wish. Please just read the

336
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:40.319
story a lot. There were so
many comments with people looking at this picture

337
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where you took the witnesses drawing and
you put it kind of on the scenic

338
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.839
like what it might have looked like
in that area. Obviously, this isn't

339
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:55.079
a snapshot or you're not alleging this
to be a photo. It's obviously a

340
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:57.880
recreation. And so many people,
Oh, that looks so fake. Of

341
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:03.480
course it looks fake because it is. It's like an animation. It's a

342
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.880
graphic. For God's sakes, people, if you would have read the story,

343
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:11.759
you would have seen that, and
that you would not seem so silly.

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That's that's the world of Facebook.
That's how social media works. And

345
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people people love visuals, they love
photos, and they'll glance the photo and

346
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:23.720
then comment solely on that. Yeah, and you know, with a lot

347
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:29.640
of the you know, any story
we post that doesn't really have a photo

348
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:33.759
of what witnesses saw and are describing, you know, it's the photo of

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00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.559
the location where it occurred, or
something like that, and people will comment,

350
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:41.400
I don't see the UFO, dumb, or they'll comment and say,

351
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:45.279
I think that's a cloud. It
is a cloud. It's all that's in

352
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.599
the photo. Nobody said otherwise.
But yeah, there is a lack of

353
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:52.079
reading the story, even like open
it, clicking on it and glancing at

354
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.400
it to see what we said,
or seeing more images that go along with

355
00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:00.920
the story. So yeah, it
is frustrating, but I guess short attention

356
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.680
spans. Yeah. And one of
the reasons it's frustrating too is just the

357
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.960
facts, because there's a lot of
facts, a lot of details with a

358
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.759
lot of these stories, some stuff
that you know, we've pains taken lee

359
00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:17.039
research to find out what all the
facts and information are, and the stories

360
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:21.400
are so much better, there's so
much better information if people were to read

361
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:25.599
the stories like this one in Italy
that I posted this week. The photo

362
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:30.519
isn't that impressive, but there were
multiple witnesses and I think that the facts

363
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:34.839
of this story are really interesting,
and if you just look at the picture,

364
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.480
you're not going to know that there
were these multiple witnesses from all over

365
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:45.519
the country and everything. So yeah, please read the story, and a

366
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:51.440
lot of these stories do have,
you know, additional sources, additional information

367
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:55.319
that comes down additional research that we
do. You know. So some people

368
00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:00.960
will see the headline we post and
they'll recognize that they've read something about this

369
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:06.319
story, you know, that same
day or whatever, and say, oh,

370
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:08.519
that was already explained, or that
was this move on or something like

371
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.400
that, and they don't realize there's
more to this story, right, and

372
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.759
or this see that was already identified
as that, and if you look at

373
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.440
the story, we will identify it
as that. Yeah, so that one's

374
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.640
a big one. Yeah, that's
what we explain in the story. In

375
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.759
fact, typically if we're posting the
story, we explain it. I feel

376
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.240
better than anyone else has because both
of us do a lot more research and

377
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.359
find the root sources. So we've
explained this better than anywhere else. So

378
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:41.079
yeah, read the story and you'll
get some information you will appreciate. Yeah,

379
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.240
it helped to read. Yeah.
One guy posted put reading so hard

380
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:49.759
kind of funny. Some people I
guess don't like to read, but I

381
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:52.960
told them, you know, practice
makes perfect, So maybe you just can

382
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:57.559
use a little more reading practice there. Well, since reading is so hard,

383
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.839
maybe what we should start doing in
our stories, and even in our

384
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:06.440
featured photos we post is we should
post the photo and then put big words

385
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:08.400
in the photo, you know,
like an Internet meme or something, and

386
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:12.640
yeah, say the important things right
there in the photo. With Twitter,

387
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:17.480
you know, with the information being
so short a couple of sentences, maybe

388
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.160
that's where we're headed. The meme
photos will be the new stories of the

389
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:26.039
future. You get to get out
your story in five or maybe five words

390
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.480
and one big picture. Sadly,
I'm sure you're right, ay, y

391
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:37.319
ay yi, that's gonna be mine. Show my picture and just put a

392
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:41.799
AI and that's my story for they
all. Right, Well, there we

393
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.960
go. We have you know,
Chili did some really cool stuff, the

394
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:52.079
UFO organization working with a French organization. That's really cool story. There's other

395
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:59.400
cool stories. However, Jason and
I will be joined by none other than

396
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:08.400
Lee Spiegel, the Huffington Post's own
UFO paranormal writer, next week, and

397
00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:13.240
we're going to be talking about news. So we'll certainly be talking, I

398
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:17.279
think at length about Chili and some
of the cool things that their UFO organization

399
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:21.920
has done over the year. So
we'll have a lot more news and some

400
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:28.559
of the news we didn't cover next
week exciting. Huh, of course it's

401
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.119
exciting. I can't hear any excitement. Yes, I look forward to that

402
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.000
every year. It's a lot of
fun, Leon and hopefully you get angry

403
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.039
at him again this year. Yeah. We tease each other about what,

404
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:45.799
you know, we think are the
top stories, but little ribbon there.

405
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:51.440
But yeah, it's always fun.
Yep, it's fun. It's fun to

406
00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:55.400
have, you know, different different
viewpoints and comments and thoughts about these stories,

407
00:32:55.440 --> 00:33:00.799
because yeah, we all do have
different ideas about the bigger stories of

408
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:05.640
the year and and the stories that
deserve the attention or the ones that didn't

409
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.880
deserve the attention. Yeah, I
think that's where we so we'll see why

410
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:14.599
are you giving that oh so much
attention? Ro All right, okay,

411
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:17.920
so why don't we go ahead?
And I guess I should ask is there

412
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.079
any other story you wanted to talk
about, mister McClellan, No, sir,

413
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.680
we'll talk about plenty next time.
Yep, we sure will. All

414
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:30.640
right, then let's get to our
interview with mister Nick Pope. I am

415
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:35.920
very happy to welcome back to the
show Nick Pope. Hello, how are

416
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:38.400
you? I'm fine? Thanks,
it's great to be back on. Yes,

417
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:43.480
it's great to talk to you again, and especially right now in the

418
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.960
middle of all the controversy. I
have a hard time listening to your accent,

419
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:52.480
not you saying it like you know, controversy, kind of like how

420
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.319
the British stay it. Well,
hey, it's not my fault. You

421
00:33:54.400 --> 00:34:00.839
Americans butchered our language, right,
We kind of did our own thing with

422
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.480
it, didn't we. Well,
I shouldn't have said that. I've probably

423
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.360
alienated just about all the listeners.
Now, Oh that's okay. We have

424
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:15.199
lots of listeners from the UK who
will appreciate your comment there. But yeah,

425
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:19.360
we've got a lot to talk about, especially right now. I don't

426
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:22.719
know if you know, but I
was able to interview John Burrows and Pat

427
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:28.559
Frasconia not too long ago, who
are both part of your recent book.

428
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.719
So we'll talk a lot about what
he's been up to or they've been up

429
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:37.480
to as well. Sure, yes, I haven't listened to the show,

430
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:39.760
but I was aware that you'd managed
to get an interview with them, which

431
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:45.039
is great. Yeah, so I
guess we'll start out with because I haven't

432
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:49.800
spoken with you, I think I
spoke with you while you were writing it

433
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.239
not too long before it came out, but not since your book has come

434
00:34:53.239 --> 00:35:00.119
out, Encounters in Rendelsham Forest.
So I guess what was your gold with

435
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:07.800
tackling this story. Well, I
think a couple of things. Many years

436
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:12.039
ago, of course, a number
of other people have had to go at

437
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:16.960
writing the Randallsham Forest story. We
had Jenny Randalls, Brenda Butler dot Street,

438
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:22.800
then we had Larry Warren and Peter
Robbins. Then we had Georgina Bruney.

439
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:28.960
Now I had obviously been involved in
quite a lot of that. Georgina

440
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.719
in particular was a good friend of
mine. But as time passed and as

441
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:37.639
new information came in, I was
toying with the idea of writing my own

442
00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:42.039
account. And then at that point
I'd have to check back exactly when,

443
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.360
but I think it was maybe,
I don't know, two thousand and nine,

444
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:51.639
twenty ten, perhaps John Burrows and
Jim Peniston contacted me and they said,

445
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.320
look, we're thinking of putting together
our own account of this. Would

446
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:00.960
I like to contribute a chapter with
particular reference to the Ministry of Defend Angle

447
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:05.239
and the UK involvement in this.
And I said yes, and I started

448
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:07.840
putting that together and then I thought, well, wait a minute, I

449
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:10.320
wonder if we can't maybe do a
little bit better. I think they had

450
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.639
in mind just self publishing something.
But I have a literary agent in the

451
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:22.000
UK and he had placed my previous
four books with major publishers in both the

452
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:23.599
UK and the US, and I
thought, well, I wonder if we

453
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:29.360
can't collaborate and get a book together
on this, And that's precisely what we

454
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:34.119
did. John and Jim thought that
was a good idea. We contacted my

455
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:38.719
agent and we did a deal with
Saint Martin's Press, which is part of

456
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:44.199
the giant McMillan publishing house, so
one of the Big six. And I

457
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.199
think in that way, we got
the story out to a large number of

458
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:52.280
people, much much more mainstream than
had we decided to just go our separate

459
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:59.199
ways on this, which makes sense
and I always appreciate and I always personally

460
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:02.079
put author is in this field to
go that route. A lot of people

461
00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:07.000
want to self publish or go with
kind of these kind of micro publishing that

462
00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:10.519
which is really just a couple of
steps above self publishing. So it gets

463
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:15.960
out to the field and we share
amongst ourselves, but it's so much better

464
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.000
to get it out to the masses. Well, sure, and you know,

465
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:22.800
we got reviewed in the Washington Post, in the San Francisco Review of

466
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:28.920
Books, in various other places.
We got some mainstream media coverage with this,

467
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.320
and it was always our intention to
say, look, this isn't really

468
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:36.480
just a UFO story, you know. I think it goes wider. It

469
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:44.159
goes into areas of government, the
military, the intelligence agencies that are particularly

470
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:49.599
controversial now with all the kind of
talk that one hears in the media about

471
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.679
the secret state, surveillance society,
etc. And I think some of the

472
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:57.199
issues in the book play to that
too. So, as you say,

473
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.639
it was important to us that this
didn't just come out in some small New

474
00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:06.199
age press, but we really did
hit one of the big six really cool

475
00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:10.639
And how have those reviews been thus
far? Mixed? I don't think the

476
00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:15.840
Post liked it, but the San
Francisco Review of Books very much did.

477
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:24.159
And also I was picked up by
a major history and political blog that was

478
00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:29.480
as much interested in the kind of
government secrecy side of all this as the

479
00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:34.599
UFO angle. So and of course
we have the paperback coming out early next

480
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:38.039
year, which is going to again
in terms of sheer numbers take this to

481
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:43.519
a new level. So I think, as with all UFO books, it's

482
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:46.000
a mixed bag when it comes to
the review. But you know, I

483
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:51.840
look back on this and I think
it's not like the nineties when publishers were

484
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:55.320
churning out UFO books left, right
and center. Really in recent years,

485
00:38:55.639 --> 00:39:01.039
the number of UFO books that have
come out with major mainstream publishers really only

486
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:07.119
I think being in Leslie Kayne's book, John Alexander's book, and the book

487
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:12.679
that John Burrows, Jim Peniston and
I have just put together. So it's

488
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.239
a more difficult environment for this subject
than it was in the nineties with the

489
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:23.519
fiftieth anniversary of Roswell and all the
associated interest in that right, no doubt.

490
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:27.760
I mean, people in this field
know there are lots of books coming

491
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.559
out, but we know of them
because of our internal kind of networks within

492
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:37.960
the field. But as far as
penetrating the mainstream like you have here,

493
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:42.719
doesn't happen often, no, And
I think when it does, well,

494
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:46.800
when one gets the opportunity, one
should grab that opportunity with both hands.

495
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:52.159
And again that's very much when we
sat down at the beginning of this project,

496
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:57.639
both John Burrows, Jim Peniston,
and myself did think that was what

497
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:00.360
we wanted to do, because otherwise, in a sense, you're just you're

498
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.840
just preaching to the choir. You
can sell a lot of books to the

499
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:08.800
UFO community, but really we wanted
to break out and make it go beyond

500
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:15.159
that, and that's what we did. When it comes to the mainstream critics,

501
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:22.360
what have been the criticisms out of
curiosity that you've seen, Well,

502
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:27.400
I think they as ever, I
sometimes wonder whether the critics have read the

503
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:31.880
book in huge detail, because sometimes
as a times some of the criticisms are,

504
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:36.320
well, this is far too credulous. But actually, in our book,

505
00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:39.679
we are the first ones to conclude
ourselves. Look, you know,

506
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:45.039
we're really not in a position to
say definitively what we're dealing with here.

507
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:50.440
So we don't ram any one theory, whether it's extraterrestrials, whether it's time

508
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:54.119
travelers, or indeed, whether it's
any of the skeptical theories like secret prototype

509
00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:59.960
aircraft or drones. We don't ram
any of those theories down people's throat.

510
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:04.079
So, you know, when some
of the criticisms have said, oh,

511
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.960
this is just another UFO book and
actually it's not. So. I do

512
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:12.239
wonder sometimes whether people get too far
beyond the press release when they do a

513
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.679
review, right, which is so
frustrating, because you know, you had

514
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:20.800
mentioned Leslie Kane's book and she ran
across something very similar. Were many of

515
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.360
the reviews you could tell were referencing
cases that weren't even in her book,

516
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:29.840
that they really hadn't reviewed the book
indeed. And I mean some of the

517
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:34.599
criticism we got, for example,
and both within and from outside the UFO

518
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:38.239
community, was oh, have you
come down far too much in favor of

519
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:42.559
the time travel theory? Well,
no, we don't. Actually, if

520
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:46.000
anyone's read the book, it gets
a couple of pages where we talk about

521
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:51.480
the possibilities of time travel in general
terms, and we talk, for example,

522
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:59.599
about the work of physicist Ronald Allott. But we absolutely do not conclude

523
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:04.599
that it's time travelers, nor do
we conclude it it's extraterrestrial. So you

524
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:08.880
know, it's very very strange reading
on forums and blogs all sorts of interpretations

525
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:12.719
of our book, and John,
Jim and I are looking at each other

526
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:17.360
going, that's not what we said, right, right, And I think

527
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:22.880
what's interesting. I think there are
so many people that are hold the you

528
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:30.000
know, they're so into the idea. There's so they believe so much that

529
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:37.360
this is an extraterrestural phenomena that they
get frustrated with alternative theories. And I

530
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.800
think it's interesting to introduce alternative theories. And I don't think a lot of

531
00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:46.760
people know that Jim Peniston, for
one, very much subscribes to that idea.

532
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:52.840
Yeah, I mean that's that's certainly
you know the case. Jim was

533
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:58.320
very much attracted by this, and
I mean indeed there is a point,

534
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:04.960
particularly during one of his previous regression
hypnosis satuate posisions, where he actually turned

535
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:08.800
around and said they are us.
But now looking back at that, Jim

536
00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:12.760
is I think the first one to
admit that there are, of course,

537
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:19.599
as we all know, problems over
regression hypnosis, whether it's a way of

538
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:25.360
genuinely uncover hovering real memories or whether
it can create false ones. So I

539
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:29.119
think John's the first. Jim is
the first one to say, well,

540
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:31.360
you know, yeah, it's a
theory, but it's by no means a

541
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:35.880
definitive opinion on this, And I
mean it does you know, sometimes it

542
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:42.119
amuses me when people say, oh, you know, you're even mentioning the

543
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:47.239
time travel theory is going to discredit
our theory that it's space aliens. You

544
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:52.039
know, as far as the public
concerned, all these theories are pretty out

545
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:54.679
there, and it's our job,
I think, when we're putting together a

546
00:43:54.679 --> 00:44:00.239
book like this, to dispassionately weigh
all the evidence and to say, right,

547
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:01.840
what have we got here? And
if we don't have enough to come

548
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:06.159
to definitive conclusion, which hand on
heart, I don't think we do,

549
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:10.119
then then we shouldn't try to pretend
that the case is in any way solved,

550
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:15.559
because it's not. And for those
critics, especially in the mainstream you

551
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:22.159
know the books, if they review
it thoroughly, is much more palatable and

552
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:29.559
credible when you know an approach is
taken with where it's serious researcher and being

553
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:34.599
done and looking at all possibilities.
Yes, and I think you know where

554
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:38.360
the Washington Post did, like Encounter
in Rendlesham Forest was when it got into

555
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:45.760
you know, surveillance society, the
secret State and things like that, and

556
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.400
there was a quote where they said, you know, words to the effect

557
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:54.880
of this is a book filled in
many ways with paranoia about the activities of

558
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:59.960
the government, and not all of
this paranoia by any means, is unjust.

559
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:05.639
So it was nice to have the
post reference our book in that way.

560
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:13.039
So here's a tough question in a
nutshell, because there's so many perspectives.

561
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:17.079
Of course, you're taking three perspectives
here, three valid perspectives people who

562
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:23.320
were involved very closely with the case. But in a nutshell, how would

563
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:32.639
you describe the events the Rendalstrom Forest. You've probably been asked this before I

564
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.840
have. I'll try and give it
to you each time. I try and

565
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:38.559
do this in a briefer and briefer
version so I can give people. I

566
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:44.320
think the important thing to say about
this is that, according not just to

567
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:49.320
the testimony, but from the government
documents we have, this was not lights

568
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:52.920
in the sky. This was a
landing of a craft of some sort.

569
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:57.920
It was a multiple witness event.
I sometimes characterized this as a perfect storm

570
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:02.639
of upology. What I mean by
that is almost every single factor that makes

571
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:09.079
a case interesting and compelling is here
in Renderlsham Forest. Military witnesses, multiple

572
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:15.280
witnesses over a series of three different
nights, an audit trail of government documents,

573
00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:20.079
the provenance of which is not disputed. You can read these at the

574
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:24.360
National Archives and on the mod's website. It's not like MJ twelve, for

575
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:29.159
example, where people say are these
documents real or not? No, we

576
00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:32.440
have the documents. They are the
government's own documents by their own admission,

577
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:37.320
and we have the physical evidence.
We have an object that was tracked on

578
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:44.119
radar. We have an object that
landed and where radiation levels were recorded using

579
00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:50.280
a gey encounter and then assessed by
the Ministry of Defense Defense intelligence staff i

580
00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:53.840
e. Those scientific and technical intelligence
staffs that we at the Ministry of Defense

581
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:59.280
in the UK used for this sort
of thing. And all of this put

582
00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:05.760
together proves beyond any reasonable doubt that
there was a structured craft of unknown origin

583
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:12.360
that John Burrows, Jim Peniston,
a number of other witnesses encountered what we

584
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.639
don't you know, in a sense, we know what it wasn't. It

585
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:22.159
really wasn't a secret prototype aircraft or
drone, though that's probably the strongest skeptical

586
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:30.599
theory. It wasn't the local lighthouse. It wasn't a psychological test of the

587
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:37.199
Guard Force to see how they would
react using holographic technology and Hollywood special effects.

588
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:39.159
So we know what it wasn't.
What we don't know is what it

589
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:45.280
was. But that in a nutshell
is I think the Rendalsham Forest incident.

590
00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:49.800
But there are obviously a lot more
specifics, and perhaps we'll get into those,

591
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:52.960
or perhaps not. When you'd say, for instance, you can rule

592
00:47:52.960 --> 00:48:00.639
out a drone or any other sort
of hay tech kind of military equipment,

593
00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:07.440
what for you makes that so well? I think a couple of things.

594
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:15.639
Firstly, aviation technology generally runs around
ten or fifteen years ahead of what's publicly

595
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:22.760
declared and what you'll see on display
at the major ESH shows like Farmborough,

596
00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:31.119
Paris. This object had speeds and
maneuvers and capabilities that go way beyond anything

597
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:36.360
like that. I mean, even
now near what thirty five years on,

598
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:38.880
we don't have anything that can remotely
do this. The other thing is a

599
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:44.280
more practical point, and it's one
that I'm more familiar with from my own

600
00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:51.679
government work, and that is this, if people had encountered some secret prototype

601
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:57.599
drone or aircraft, chain of command
would simply have told them you've seen something,

602
00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:00.400
it's one of ours. Don't say
anything else other than leave things hanging.

603
00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:07.280
So, in other words, there
is a way to kill the story.

604
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:13.199
Stone dead on day one, and
yet that's not the road they went

605
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:15.559
down. I mean, my goodness, you know, you certainly wouldn't have

606
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:21.519
had pay per trayals of documents going
out from the USAF to the MOD.

607
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:28.159
You wouldn't have had the local police
getting dragged into this. It would all

608
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:35.199
have been locked down in the way
that invariably things were locked down from the

609
00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:38.280
fifties and the sixties onwards when people
saw U two's and SR seventy ones,

610
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:43.599
and in the seventies and the eighties
when people were seeing stealth fighters and stealth

611
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:50.000
bombers. So with the I mean
the kind of way if you follow the

612
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.360
official paperwork and everything, I think
that and I want to get your opinion

613
00:49:53.360 --> 00:50:00.079
on this. It seems as though
both sides, the Americans and the the

614
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:07.159
MOD kind of wanted to wash their
hands of the whole situation, at least

615
00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:12.199
that's what it seems like on the
surface, trying to pass it off one.

616
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:15.840
On the other, of course,
you had people like Lord Hill Norton

617
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:22.000
trying to get more done publicly as
far as research, which didn't really happen.

618
00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:27.320
Is that the story Do you think
that each say did kind of just

619
00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:30.079
try to push it off on the
other and wash your hand of the whole

620
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:35.920
event. At one level, that's
certainly true. And the jurisdictional position is

621
00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:38.960
complex. I mean, it's been
a while since I've dug out the NATO

622
00:50:39.079 --> 00:50:47.800
Status of Forces agreement and the various
UK US memoranda that governed the United States

623
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:52.920
military presence in the UK. But
there's quite a lot of paperwork, and

624
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:57.880
it is quite tricky. But I
can't help but wonder despite all of that,

625
00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:01.119
all the confusion over juris diction,
all the trying to hand this off

626
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:07.519
to the other side, whether to
some extent it almost looks as if both

627
00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:13.000
the Americans and the British at some
level are almost being set up to fail

628
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:17.039
here. But there there is an
embarrassment, and there's a difficulty, And

629
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:24.039
the main difficulty is one which the
UFO community have hardly ever mentioned, and

630
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:31.039
that's right from the outset, the
United States Air Force started doing something which

631
00:51:31.159 --> 00:51:37.480
directly contradicted US government policy. In
other words, they were investigating at UFO

632
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:43.480
sighting right from the moment when Borrow's
penistone and Kevanasack approached the object. They

633
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:46.719
were doing what the US government and
military have said for decades, we no

634
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:52.079
longer do. The party line,
as you well know, is we don't

635
00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:57.079
investigate UFOs anymore, and we haven't
since nineteen sixty nine when Project Blue Book

636
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:02.000
was terminated. So, in a
sense is quite a problem with the Americans

637
00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:07.559
doing anything at all. And by
the time you start, for example,

638
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:12.800
flying in and this is one of
the most intriguing documents in the mod file,

639
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.039
the commander in chief of the United
States Air Force in Europe to be

640
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:21.039
briefed on this, and once he
starts taking items back to his headquarters in

641
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:28.760
Ramstein, Germany, you're not just
kind of bending US government policy on UFOs.

642
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:32.840
You're absolutely driving a coach and horses
through it and breaking it into a

643
00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:37.320
zillion pieces. Well, and that's
the hard part. And I know you

644
00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:42.199
and I have talked about this,
and you certainly would have an unique perspective

645
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:49.360
in that, when does what I
mean the definition of a UFO. If

646
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:59.679
the military has something an observable,
observable phenomena, an object that is at

647
00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:04.719
the so to speak, and they
need to investigate it, at what point

648
00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:07.239
do they say, you know,
this is something we're not going to look

649
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.440
at because it's a UFO, whether
it be the Americans or now the UK,

650
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:16.360
because now they say they don't investigate
this sort of thing either. You

651
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:24.239
know, at what point does it
become not a possible foreign threat of unknown

652
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:30.079
origin and versus a UFO. Well, I think it's a great question.

653
00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:32.719
It gets to the heart of this. I think the only way you can

654
00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:40.199
do this without fatally compromising the US
government's position is probably the way they did.

655
00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:45.079
It's desperately avoid using the term UFO. And it's interesting, of course,

656
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:51.599
if you look at all the paperwork, and we put the key documents

657
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:55.199
in the appendix of our book,
of course Colonel Holtz memo, but some

658
00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:00.199
other ones too that are less well
known. They all have the type or

659
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:05.239
most of them have the title Unexplained
Lights. And the other point, which

660
00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:12.000
John Burrows and Jim Peniston are often
I think it pains to point out,

661
00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:16.400
is that this was being treated in
some respect, certainly at the outset as

662
00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:22.480
a security situation. I mean,
here we have two of the most sensitive

663
00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:30.159
NATO bases in the entire alliance at
a time of some considerable international tension,

664
00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:35.159
and you have a possible incursion,
and of course it was treated as such.

665
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:37.920
So I think the trick is and
it is a trick. Your question

666
00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:43.559
is right, it is a trick. Is you avoid using the term UFOs

667
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:47.360
because, as Colonel Holt has said
on many occasions, the phrase ufo is

668
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.079
what you say over here, a
tar baby or something. No one wants

669
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:55.239
to touch it, but the moment
you do, you kind of you know,

670
00:54:55.320 --> 00:55:00.280
it gets all over you. Right
then you're dirtied. And and so

671
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:06.280
that's an interesting observation on how they
handled it. But then getting deeper,

672
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:12.559
getting past all of this, there
of course the rumor and speculation that there

673
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:20.719
was something deeper going on. Even
Colonel Holt believes that possibly Air Force intelligence

674
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:28.119
went so far as to brief people
such as John and Jim under the no

675
00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:31.920
under their nose, so that Halt, as a deputy based commander and his

676
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:37.239
you know, base commander, didn't
know that these debriefings were going on.

677
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:42.880
Do you believe that that happened?
Yes, I do. I think that

678
00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:47.079
Colonel Holt, as the deputy based
commander, is extremely well placed. I

679
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:52.079
mean, if you look into the
actual role of the deputy base commander,

680
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:58.159
Holt is almost perfectly placed to be
the one to say what's going on.

681
00:55:58.199 --> 00:56:04.159
And yet even he seems powerless to
stop these these people coming and going.

682
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:09.400
He talks about unmarked flights, he
talks about personnel who nobody could could really

683
00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:14.239
get to the bottom of who they
were. And of course, his most

684
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:19.480
provocative quote of all, and I
mean, again we put this in the

685
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:23.920
book, but I mean, this
quote is absolute dynamite. When when he

686
00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:28.199
said, and this is I'm reading
this if you don't mind, but it's

687
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:34.760
so important quote. Drugs such a
sodium pentathole often called a truth serum when

688
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:40.360
used with some form of brainwashing or
hypnosis, were administered during these interrogations,

689
00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:45.880
and the whole thing has had damaging
and lasting effects on the men involved.

690
00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:51.039
You, I mean, when that
comes not from the junior personnel but from

691
00:56:51.079 --> 00:56:55.800
the deputy based commander, that has
got to be taken seriously. And the

692
00:56:55.840 --> 00:57:00.679
preface to that, and this again
was was a direct quot. Is he

693
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:07.719
said, Office of Special Investigations operatives
harshly interrogated five young airmen, some of

694
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:15.679
them in shock at the time,
who were key witnesses. And yet it

695
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:20.519
seems like his pleased or his when
he's come out with this has kind of

696
00:57:20.519 --> 00:57:27.119
fallen on deaf ears other than people
like us. It doesn't seem to have

697
00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:31.760
been taken seriously. Yes, and
of course that's why Colonel Holt is extremely

698
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:38.760
frustrated by this. He has I
think, been very bollish in his language.

699
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:45.440
He's sometimes either stated or implied that
it would maybe take a sort of

700
00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:52.079
I don't know, formal congressional inquiry
and a subpoena or something, but that

701
00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:58.480
he would be prepared to put certain
information in the public domain. He's dropped

702
00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:01.960
more than a few hints recently that
he's thinking, he's twying with the idea

703
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:07.400
of putting together his own account of
this. Now he's doing a public talk

704
00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:13.199
in Woodbridge next summer, but that
you know, inevitably that's only going to

705
00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:15.920
get I don't know, two or
three hundred people in the door. It

706
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:20.360
will probably get some media coverage,
coverage, but that'll be predominantly UK.

707
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:24.880
I think at some stage he's got
to think about putting putting together a book

708
00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:30.119
on this himself, and that would
be interesting. But yeah, you are,

709
00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:34.519
You're right. He's been bullish in
his statements. But it has been

710
00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:39.679
surprising in a sense how little has
been picked up by the mainstream media.

711
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:45.360
And of course the reason for this
is the age old problem of signal to

712
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:51.559
noise. There are so many bogueous
stories out there, There are so many

713
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:55.079
completely made up UFO accounts that when
you get the real deal someone like Colonel

714
00:58:55.079 --> 00:59:00.599
Holt, you know, the mains
stream press journalists don't really have time to

715
00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:02.039
do a sort of deep background check
and they go, oh, yeah,

716
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:07.039
here's another guy you know with his
UFO story. And yet the ultimate irony

717
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:09.960
is, yeah, actually, this
guy really is who he says he was,

718
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:15.639
and he was involved in what he
says he was involved in. But

719
00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:20.239
that's a problem I know that will
be well known to you. It's a

720
00:59:20.239 --> 00:59:22.360
problem well known to me, and
you know, without wanting to go too

721
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:28.320
far down this road, it's a
problem that in a sense I've been on

722
00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:31.239
the other side of because when I
worked for the Ministry of Defense, my

723
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:37.320
job, just some extent of course, was to try and downplay this sort

724
00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:39.679
of stuff. And we loved nothing
better than, you know, trying to

725
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:45.800
kill a media story or you know, killing one or either kind of twisting

726
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:47.960
it and spinning it so that what
came out was something that made people look

727
00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:52.880
crazy. So I'm sure Colonel Holt
has been up against much of the same

728
00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:58.559
thing. Now when you worked in
your official capacity, as you just mentioned,

729
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:02.800
were you then at has we're doing
this sort of thing with this case

730
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:12.079
in particular. No, inevitably it
was the case, and at my time

731
01:00:12.119 --> 01:00:15.880
on the UFO project, of course, was nineteen ninety one to nineteen ninety

732
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:19.079
four, so this was some years
after the event, but it was still

733
01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:23.480
an incident that was attracting a lot
of interest from the UK's Parliament, from

734
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:29.199
the media, from the UFO community, and from the public. And my

735
01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:36.599
job when the press office came and
said, hey, we've got an inquiry

736
01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:40.840
from a journalist here, my job
was to try to tell the story,

737
01:00:42.119 --> 01:00:46.559
to give what we called, we
used the phrase defensive lines to take and

738
01:00:46.679 --> 01:00:52.039
these were what we did is we
designed very quotable sound bites which we knew

739
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:57.239
would be picked up by the media
because they were very carefully constructed to be

740
01:00:57.599 --> 01:01:00.960
exactly the sort of punchy thing the
media love. I mean, most people

741
01:01:01.239 --> 01:01:06.599
or a lot of people working in
the Ministry Defense's Press office are actually poached

742
01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:10.599
from newspapers, so these people know
how to do this. And the trick

743
01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:15.920
is, and it is a trick, is to design these short, punch

744
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:22.000
yet very quotable sound bites that will
downplay the incident, will make the witnesses

745
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:27.679
maybe sound a little kooky, and
will take the story off in the direction

746
01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:30.960
that you want to take it in, not the direction that the journalist might

747
01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:35.320
want to go, and certainly not
the direction that the witness and the UFO

748
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:38.719
community would want to go. And
that's a kind of fine art. It's

749
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:44.760
a bit of a dark art as
well. And in many cases where the

750
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:50.239
media is coming out the government or
the military as a skeptic, you haven't

751
01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:53.320
had it. I'm sure a little
easier because in this case the media is

752
01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:59.119
coming as more of a partner where
they're often looking for kind of an out

753
01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:02.960
because they don't want to go down
the crazy road or the more controversial road.

754
01:02:02.960 --> 01:02:07.639
They would love to have. I'm
sure a quote from someone in the

755
01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:14.400
military that leads them to a more
easy solution that they can print. You're

756
01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:19.440
absolutely right. We were pushing on
an open door here, and all you've

757
01:02:19.480 --> 01:02:23.400
got to do sometimes is throw in
a few kind of quotes about little green

758
01:02:23.480 --> 01:02:29.679
men and flying saucers and the story
virtually writes itself. Now, our nightmare

759
01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:32.000
was, of course, that one
day we would come up against a woodwood

760
01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:37.039
or a Bernstein or someone like that, but it didn't happen in my time.

761
01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:38.519
I mean, now I'm kind of, I guess on the other side

762
01:02:38.519 --> 01:02:44.679
of the fence. I work as
a broadcaster and journalist myself, so I'm

763
01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:46.760
you know, I'm hoping to do
it from the other side. So I

764
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:52.559
suppose it's the kind of case of
what would you say, gamekeeper turned poacher.

765
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:55.719
Well, and that's another thing that
I wanted to touch au pont in

766
01:02:55.840 --> 01:03:00.760
it and I John had brought this
up a little bit with my interview with

767
01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:06.039
him. And of course you've ran
across this before because you're you still can't

768
01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:13.440
completely divest yourself of your past like
you've we've talked about in previous interviews.

769
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:20.960
You've still under the secrecy oath there. So there are you've got kind of

770
01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:30.199
a tough road to follow. But
does that then, is that a detriment

771
01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:35.119
to research in this area? So, for instance, when John is looking

772
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:40.440
at material that he feels the mod
did not want released. And of course

773
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:47.239
when you're someone a researcher who's looking
deep and you're trying to unearth things such

774
01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:53.440
as this, you can't really go
to those places. No, I can't.

775
01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:58.079
I mean there are constraints, but
I mean I'm not unique in that

776
01:03:58.519 --> 01:04:03.159
John himself and Jim are bound by
their secrecy oaths. And I certainly I

777
01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:10.440
have never considered myself a whistleblower.
Encountering Randalsham Forest is not a whistle blowing

778
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:15.079
book. It's an informed insider book
written, you know, not from the

779
01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:20.320
outside looking in, but from the
inside looking out. It's written by John

780
01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:25.760
and Jim as the two people at
the heart of this on the first night.

781
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:29.760
It's written for myself with my mood
background. It's no secret that the

782
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:35.559
manuscript did go to both the DoD
and the Ministry Defense in the UK for

783
01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:44.039
security vetting. It is not my
intention to divulge classified information. That's not

784
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:47.199
what we're about. So it is
a fine line that we have to tread

785
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:53.199
and John knows that as well as
I do, even though he is obviously

786
01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:58.840
frustrated with it at times. But
John has worked within the confines of the

787
01:04:58.960 --> 01:05:04.400
UK's Freedom of Information Act, and
John Burrow is probably more than any journalist

788
01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:11.440
British or American, has played a
key role in perhaps forcing the MOD to

789
01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:17.000
look again at the declassification and release
of files and documents, not just on

790
01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:23.119
Rndlesham Forest, but on UFOs more
generally, and indeed John Burrows has been

791
01:05:23.159 --> 01:05:30.320
a key force in forcing mod to
you know, change its line on this.

792
01:05:30.519 --> 01:05:34.920
So it shows what can be achieved
when you work within the system.

793
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:39.280
But yeah, you're right, I
do get accused of this all the time,

794
01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:43.800
and I mean, just if you'll
forgive me a slight indulgence. But

795
01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:47.239
you and your listeners might find this
quite funny. I mean I picked this

796
01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:54.000
out completely at random, but yesterday
I got I receive emails like this all

797
01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:57.519
the time, but I got an
email and it said, may I ask

798
01:05:57.639 --> 01:06:01.360
why you continue your mission of disinformed? May I ask why you are the

799
01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:05.320
only mi I five employee to go
dancing in the public like you do.

800
01:06:05.719 --> 01:06:10.840
Obviously you have an agenda. I
think you're still employed by them and that

801
01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:15.039
you should stay away from the field
with respect. I know what you are

802
01:06:15.079 --> 01:06:18.920
heading for once you pass on,
and you deserve it. Happy Christmass.

803
01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:23.400
Wow. So I you know,
I get this sort of stuff all the

804
01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:27.320
time. So yes, of course
there will be people in the UFO community,

805
01:06:27.559 --> 01:06:30.519
in the conspiracy theory community, who
think I'm still secretly working for the

806
01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:36.679
government just because I point out things
like I'm still bound by the Official Secrets

807
01:06:36.719 --> 01:06:43.400
Act. And yes we had the
manuscript for encounter in Ranglish and Forest Security

808
01:06:43.480 --> 01:06:45.840
vetted. But you know we,
as I said right at the outset,

809
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:50.480
we are not whistleblowers. We are
insiders telling a story but wanting to do

810
01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:57.679
so in a way that respects our
security odes to our respective countries. And

811
01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:01.599
speaking of whistle blowing, and you
having vetted, what the interesting thought comes

812
01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:04.400
to mind? Now? I've read
a lot about what you've written about this

813
01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:09.960
vetting that you went through and everything. And I know this didn't happen in

814
01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:13.679
this case with this book, and
you can correct me if I'm wrong.

815
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:20.320
But had they take an issue with
something in the book, and then you

816
01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:27.280
would have to ask as a journalist
and decide for yourself. You know,

817
01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:30.920
this is an important piece of information
I think that needs to be out in

818
01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:33.920
the public. What would you do
at that point? I think, knowing

819
01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:42.880
you, you'd probably default to the
oath and you would probably then bend to

820
01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:45.800
their wishes. Yes, I think
that's correct, But let me let me

821
01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:53.079
maybe tell you why. I think
it's all too easy for someone to say,

822
01:07:53.559 --> 01:07:59.400
oh, yes, I know best, you know what's in the public

823
01:07:59.400 --> 01:08:04.960
interest what isn't. I got into
a little row with Robert Sallas about this

824
01:08:05.159 --> 01:08:09.840
just the other day. Now I
have great respect for Robert Sallas, but

825
01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:12.719
he disagreed with my position on this, and he said, well, I

826
01:08:12.760 --> 01:08:15.520
didn't get my book cleared because I
know where the line is. I know

827
01:08:15.600 --> 01:08:21.600
what's classified and what isn't. Now, with the greatest possible respect, I

828
01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:27.199
don't think anyone and I've worked My
final tour of duty in the Ministry of

829
01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:30.239
Defense was in the Directorate of Defense
Security, and I know a little bit

830
01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:36.439
about INFOSI. And one thing I
know is this, only the information owner

831
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:45.199
is qualified to say whether something is
or is not classified anymore, and if

832
01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:49.960
so, at what level it should
be classified? I what degree of damage

833
01:08:50.479 --> 01:08:57.239
that disclosure of that information would cause. So it's not you know, I

834
01:08:57.760 --> 01:09:00.720
might like to think that I'm well
enough qualified to say, oh yeah,

835
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:04.039
if they questioned this, I could
just put it in any way, But

836
01:09:04.119 --> 01:09:06.399
I think, no, I'm not. I know what I don't know,

837
01:09:06.760 --> 01:09:13.159
and only the information owner may make
that decision legitimately. And there are very

838
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:20.000
clear rules setting out what information security
policy is within government, within the military,

839
01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:26.000
within the intelligence agencies. And I
don't think it's helpful when people try

840
01:09:26.039 --> 01:09:30.479
and start to second guess that.
But you know, if it helps maybe

841
01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:36.239
you and readers can be assured that
as a result of this process, I

842
01:09:36.319 --> 01:09:42.479
did not feel that the book ended
up as a water down version. I

843
01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:47.159
mean, in most cases I self
censored because I know the sorts of areas

844
01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:51.800
which are the danger areas. And
for example, I mean, you know,

845
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:58.239
people ask me for an example,
and maybe anticipating that you will,

846
01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:03.319
A question that often comes up is
what about nuclear weapons at the base?

847
01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:09.359
Now, I don't care what other
people have said about this. My position

848
01:10:09.439 --> 01:10:14.079
on this is always going to be
neither confirm nor deny, because that's the

849
01:10:14.079 --> 01:10:17.800
British government's position, and I check
that with the Press Office as well as

850
01:10:18.199 --> 01:10:24.760
the security vetting procedure because it does
come up so often. But so far

851
01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:28.720
as I am aware, the position
of both the American and the British government

852
01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:32.880
is to neither confirm nor deny the
presence of nuclear weapons at a specific location

853
01:10:33.399 --> 01:10:38.760
at a specific time, even if
we're talking about something that might to you

854
01:10:38.800 --> 01:10:44.720
and I now sound like a piece
of intriguing Cold War history. Well,

855
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:48.279
it's an interesting area. I think
it's extremely fascinating because of course there's fan

856
01:10:48.399 --> 01:10:51.560
to the X files, but I
think there's you know, and that kind

857
01:10:51.560 --> 01:10:57.359
of brings us that these kind of
ideas up. But also there are a

858
01:10:57.399 --> 01:11:02.279
lot of patriotic Americans out there that
believe in this field. There are military

859
01:11:03.119 --> 01:11:09.840
veterans who are interested in this field, and I think that if they came

860
01:11:10.479 --> 01:11:15.479
upon a piece of information that their
government asked them not to share, they

861
01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:18.359
would have a difficult decision to make. And I think there are many patriots

862
01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:24.199
out there who would say, I'm
going to default to, you know,

863
01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:27.199
my government. I trust them,
and I'm a patriot, and I'm gonna

864
01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:30.000
so I don't think as as cut
and dry and black and white as a

865
01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:33.159
lot of people, especially on the
internet, you know, the Internet trolls

866
01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:38.039
try to make it seem well,
I agree, and I mean I think

867
01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:42.800
the danger, as I'm sure you
know, is that all of this is

868
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:46.520
going to sound a little bit to
some people like trust us, your government

869
01:11:46.600 --> 01:11:49.960
knows best, and I mean,
you know, of course that's not what

870
01:11:50.000 --> 01:11:54.520
I'm saying, right. I mean, even when, for example, you

871
01:11:54.560 --> 01:12:00.039
look at John Burrows and his freedom
of information requests, the MOTMD has something

872
01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:06.479
which they call a public interest test, and actually, in some ways it's

873
01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:15.560
quite skewed in favor of disclosure,
so you actually have to conduct a public

874
01:12:15.600 --> 01:12:20.600
interest test to show why information should
not be disclosed. Sometimes. I mean,

875
01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:26.760
this actually drives some people in government
crazy. But you know, it's

876
01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:30.760
all too easy to think that the
government is just hiding behind a kind of

877
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:36.359
freedom of information firewall and just saying
oh, defense, national security, like

878
01:12:36.399 --> 01:12:40.840
it's a kind of get out of
jail free card. It really isn't quite

879
01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:44.920
as simple as that. And I've
done this. I've handled Freedom of Information

880
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:49.199
Act requests from the inside, so
I know that it can get quite tricky,

881
01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:55.840
and sometimes governments do put out rather
more than they would like. So

882
01:12:56.079 --> 01:13:00.359
I want to get into more of
the bird is kind of what he's done,

883
01:13:00.399 --> 01:13:05.520
and some of this stuff post your
book, however, I really want

884
01:13:05.560 --> 01:13:10.119
to, even though actually some of
it actually took place during the writing,

885
01:13:10.239 --> 01:13:15.399
but I want to get into this
before I leave the book also, and

886
01:13:15.079 --> 01:13:18.680
kind of get into some of the
other controversy going on. You had mentioned

887
01:13:18.960 --> 01:13:24.600
Larry Warren and Peter Robbins, and
as you know, I've read your retort

888
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:30.880
as well. Peter Robbins was disappointed
with aspects of the book. But I

889
01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:39.680
want to ask about two things.
First of all, your approach to dealing

890
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:45.399
with Larry Warren. What were you
thinking going into the book. I'm sure

891
01:13:45.439 --> 01:13:47.239
that you put a lot of thought
towards how am I going to deal with

892
01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:56.159
this witness who has more controversial things
to say. Yes, my approach was

893
01:13:56.279 --> 01:14:01.800
essentially to almost literally draw a Diane
Gram of all the different witnesses and their

894
01:14:01.960 --> 01:14:09.399
various interconnections. And the way that
I did this was almost literally to take

895
01:14:09.439 --> 01:14:12.279
a blank sheet of paper, and
then you put all these people down,

896
01:14:12.439 --> 01:14:16.279
like John Burrow's Jim Peniston, and
each time they say something, you know,

897
01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:19.560
look at their statement and say,
well, who else did they say

898
01:14:19.720 --> 01:14:26.640
was out there with them or saw
them, or interviewed them afterwards and took

899
01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:30.359
a statement from them, And you
kind of end up with a blank sheet

900
01:14:30.359 --> 01:14:34.239
of paper with a lot of you
know what looked like spiderwebs on them.

901
01:14:34.720 --> 01:14:40.319
And the point is that when Colonel
Holt, for example, says that he

902
01:14:40.439 --> 01:14:44.319
went out into the forest, he
names, you know, half a dozen

903
01:14:44.359 --> 01:14:46.479
people who are out there with them. You can talk to those people and

904
01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:53.079
they'll give you Holt's name. Black
Larry was much more of a standalone and

905
01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:59.000
yes, in evidential terms, that
was problematic. So I guess I took

906
01:14:59.000 --> 01:15:03.159
the decision that we would kind of
ring fence Larry's testimony a little bit more

907
01:15:03.439 --> 01:15:09.760
and just say, well, you
know, here's what Larry says, and

908
01:15:09.760 --> 01:15:15.159
and the other thing is I think
give him a little bit less I guess

909
01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:21.159
space in the book. Then certainly
I don't know Peter Robbins would have liked,

910
01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:25.600
for example. But again on that
point, we were very clear at

911
01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:30.600
the outset this was the story of
the Randallsham Forest incident. But I mean

912
01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:34.640
here's the key point. But told
through the eyes predominantly of Germ and John.

913
01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:40.359
I mean, Germ and John didn't
see Larry. No amount of soft

914
01:15:40.520 --> 01:15:45.840
soaping or not wanting to upset people
can change that. I mean we can't.

915
01:15:45.079 --> 01:15:49.520
We can't somehow change history and kind
of come out with the version where

916
01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:54.399
they saw Larry out there and everything
all right, They did not see Larry

917
01:15:54.560 --> 01:15:58.600
right, end of story. I
had asked John about that, and John

918
01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:02.399
was offended Larry a bit and saying
that he doesn't feel that hot can be

919
01:16:02.479 --> 01:16:06.319
definitive in saying Larry wasn't out there. But John admits I didn't see him

920
01:16:06.359 --> 01:16:10.760
out there, but that doesn't mean
he's not out there well quite, you

921
01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:13.000
know. And that's the thing,
you know, It's it's like, well,

922
01:16:13.279 --> 01:16:17.079
of course, can't Halt can't say
that Larry wasn't out there, but

923
01:16:17.159 --> 01:16:23.199
being being ridiculous about it, Halt
can't say that her Majesty the Queen wasn't

924
01:16:23.239 --> 01:16:26.640
out there, you know. I
mean, all he can say with are

925
01:16:26.680 --> 01:16:31.720
you trying to tell us something?
Miskidding? But off with my head.

926
01:16:31.760 --> 01:16:35.760
I'll be taking an hour for that
anyway. No that, you know,

927
01:16:36.119 --> 01:16:43.640
So no amount of kind of being
nice to people can change what they saw.

928
01:16:43.720 --> 01:16:47.600
And they John and Jim didn't see
Larry out there. So that doesn't

929
01:16:47.600 --> 01:16:55.159
take away from Larry's role as a
whistleblower, and we give him absolutely the

930
01:16:55.239 --> 01:16:59.239
credit for that. He played a
key role, if not the key role,

931
01:16:59.560 --> 01:17:03.600
in geting this story out there to
the UFO community and ultimately to the

932
01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:09.960
media. But like I say,
John and Jim, whose story encounter in

933
01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:13.960
wrangleshrom Forest really is, didn't see
the guy. And you know, there's

934
01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:16.680
nothing I can do about that,
absolutely nothing that makes sense. And I

935
01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:23.039
think that's fair, and I'm sure
Peter will respond to us and let us

936
01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:26.760
know his perspective on that. Sure
you will. It is of course from

937
01:17:27.039 --> 01:17:30.119
John and Jim's perspective, and they
didn't see him out there. And there's

938
01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:34.680
also the issue of corroborating evidence,
and as you kind of outlined, which

939
01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:38.720
any journalists, as you look for, you know, what are the stories

940
01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:43.000
that have more than one witness,
and of course those hold more credibility.

941
01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:46.239
It's the same with the paperwork.
Yeah, And it's the same with the

942
01:17:46.279 --> 01:17:50.359
paperwork. Of course, We've got
the memo from Holt, We've got statements

943
01:17:50.399 --> 01:17:56.640
from Baran, from Chandler, from
Peniston, from Burrows to Cavanasak, but

944
01:17:56.680 --> 01:18:00.640
we haven't got any paperwork with Larry's
name on it. So, yeah,

945
01:18:00.840 --> 01:18:06.279
the essential problem was an evidential problem, and that as a journalist and a

946
01:18:06.279 --> 01:18:12.159
broadcaster myself, you know, I
know that when I come out with a

947
01:18:12.279 --> 01:18:17.880
story which isn't underpinned by a document
or another witness who can corroborate it,

948
01:18:18.119 --> 01:18:25.000
you are in much more difficult terror. And that's the reason why Larry didn't

949
01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:30.000
get much space in this book.
The other issue that Peter had, which

950
01:18:30.079 --> 01:18:33.159
I did see your you did address
this, but I just wanted to bring

951
01:18:33.199 --> 01:18:39.239
it up here so you could do
that again. Is that he feels a

952
01:18:39.239 --> 01:18:44.479
lot of the facts in your book
were taken from his and Larry's book I

953
01:18:44.560 --> 01:18:49.880
left at Eastgate, and you define, yeah, they weren't. Is the

954
01:18:49.920 --> 01:18:54.520
bottom line? I mean, you
know, I could spin this anyway,

955
01:18:54.760 --> 01:18:59.880
but the short answer is it simply
ain't true. I mean, I think

956
01:18:59.880 --> 01:19:03.720
I gave one example and I will
repeat this because I think it's illustrative of

957
01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:09.840
the point. Peter made a big
point about Lord hill Norton asking questions in

958
01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:15.840
Parliament and said then that all these
questions were in his book. Sure they

959
01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:18.680
were. But again I go back
to the point that as a journalist and

960
01:19:18.720 --> 01:19:25.319
a broadcaster who who's written for most
of the UK's national daily newspapers, including

961
01:19:25.479 --> 01:19:29.840
The Times of London, you know
you always have to go back to the

962
01:19:29.880 --> 01:19:34.720
original source. So if I have
a choice of quoting Peter's book or going

963
01:19:34.760 --> 01:19:42.600
back to the original source, which
is sad the written record of UK parliamentary

964
01:19:42.600 --> 01:19:47.439
proceedings, I make no apologies for
going back to hansard Well, and I

965
01:19:47.479 --> 01:19:50.600
can kind of sympathize with Peter in
that. And I'm sure you've had this

966
01:19:50.680 --> 01:19:55.319
happen to you as well. And
I've stopped doing this because I got egg

967
01:19:55.359 --> 01:19:59.199
on my face too many times where
I had read because I write stories every

968
01:19:59.279 --> 01:20:01.960
day, you know, and I
had rather there's stories that referenced information that

969
01:20:02.079 --> 01:20:05.119
was in my stories, thinking I'm
the only one who had this information,

970
01:20:05.159 --> 01:20:09.479
but they didn't give me credit.
And then I confront them and they're like,

971
01:20:09.560 --> 01:20:12.359
oh, no, I got this
from over here. I was able

972
01:20:12.399 --> 01:20:15.439
to find the saurus, and then
I feel foolish because they did find a

973
01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:19.760
legitimate source that was better than me, you know. So absolutely, I

974
01:20:20.159 --> 01:20:26.720
always go to the original source where
I can. But very often when someone

975
01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:30.279
claims, hey, the source of
this is a UFO book, Actually,

976
01:20:30.319 --> 01:20:32.600
if you check, no, it
isn't, it's right. You know,

977
01:20:34.239 --> 01:20:40.840
I cannot begin to tell you how
many times all sorts of information is cross

978
01:20:40.880 --> 01:20:45.680
posted on the internet. And of
course, when I was putting together the

979
01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:49.960
book, I checked and double checked
and trouble checked all this right, right,

980
01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:55.399
well, so I was very sure
of my position on this, and

981
01:20:55.439 --> 01:21:00.720
it's you know, it's slightly disappointing
when this thing comes up as a criticism,

982
01:21:00.760 --> 01:21:06.079
because you know, it really is
a sort of journalism. First day

983
01:21:06.199 --> 01:21:11.000
lesson go back to the original source, not a UFO book, even if

984
01:21:11.039 --> 01:21:14.880
subsequently that information was in the book, right, and when it happened to

985
01:21:14.920 --> 01:21:17.640
me often as well, where someone
says you got that from my story,

986
01:21:17.680 --> 01:21:20.680
when I do, like you do, I that's what I do most of

987
01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:27.079
the day is researching for the original
source. Well, sure, I'll probably

988
01:21:27.079 --> 01:21:30.640
get a bit kind of pissy if
I read Colonel Holt's book in three years

989
01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:32.680
time, if he writes it,
and I'll say, hey, wait a

990
01:21:32.720 --> 01:21:35.920
minute, that was an encounter in
Rendolu from forest. But I suspect that

991
01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:41.079
if I check, I'll find that, you know, he, like me,

992
01:21:41.199 --> 01:21:45.000
has gone back to the original source. Right. So much controversy.

993
01:21:45.079 --> 01:21:48.479
I mean, I love Peter.
I know, I think you're very fond

994
01:21:48.520 --> 01:21:51.600
of Peter. Yeah, he's a
great guy. I mean, I think

995
01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:58.399
you know he on this. I
don't suppose it's an insult to say,

996
01:21:58.399 --> 01:22:01.279
and it's nothing that Asian other people
haven't said. In the last couple of

997
01:22:01.319 --> 01:22:05.279
weeks. I think he's been more
than a little obsessive about this. But

998
01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:10.119
he's a great guy. My door
is always open to him, and you

999
01:22:10.159 --> 01:22:13.960
know, I hope that when the
dust settles on this, we can all

1000
01:22:14.239 --> 01:22:16.199
move on. I mean, you
know, goodness. I mean in some

1001
01:22:16.279 --> 01:22:19.960
respects, I suppose you know,
someone said to me the other day,

1002
01:22:20.039 --> 01:22:24.079
Hey, it's great publicity for your
book. Well, you know maybe,

1003
01:22:24.159 --> 01:22:30.000
but in a sense it's it's I
think time to kind of move on and

1004
01:22:30.199 --> 01:22:34.439
concentrate on the issues. Well you
know, who said what to who and

1005
01:22:34.640 --> 01:22:39.039
what get you know, what got
written where. I don't think the desk

1006
01:22:39.119 --> 01:22:44.199
will ever settle in this case,
because there's always been a desk step somewhere

1007
01:22:44.359 --> 01:22:48.319
somehow regarding this case. And I
love all the people. I'm very fond

1008
01:22:48.359 --> 01:22:53.800
of everyone involved. That's euthology.
There will always be someone who isn't happy,

1009
01:22:54.239 --> 01:22:58.399
right, And I'm genuinely sorry if
that's Peter and Larry, and you

1010
01:22:58.439 --> 01:23:02.600
know, I'll, I'm sure sure
that sometime in twenty fifteen I'll sit around

1011
01:23:02.600 --> 01:23:08.640
the table with them and we'll share
a couple of told bears. Bear seems

1012
01:23:08.680 --> 01:23:13.640
to especially out there in the UK, although you're in America now, is

1013
01:23:14.760 --> 01:23:19.720
a peacemaker. So moving on to
these new UK files that John Burrows has

1014
01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:25.119
been and this is really weird,
okay, So I wanted to ask you

1015
01:23:25.159 --> 01:23:30.000
about this and I'll kind of lay
the groundwork because we did interview John,

1016
01:23:30.039 --> 01:23:34.439
but I wanted to interview you the
peculiar way in which this all came about

1017
01:23:34.680 --> 01:23:43.239
recently. So John Burrows of course
put in a foyer to the MOD to

1018
01:23:43.279 --> 01:23:47.880
get some more documentation, and it
was told what last January or December,

1019
01:23:48.000 --> 01:23:53.000
so about a year ago, that
they would give him more information, and

1020
01:23:53.039 --> 01:23:59.119
they outlined kind of what that information
was. John had talked about this in

1021
01:23:59.199 --> 01:24:01.920
Sedona actually out here in Arizona,
and some people had written something up on

1022
01:24:01.960 --> 01:24:08.439
it, but it was really kind
of a silent story until you all,

1023
01:24:08.520 --> 01:24:12.199
I think you were involved. But
there was some RENDALSCHAM conference out there in

1024
01:24:12.239 --> 01:24:16.479
the UK a few months ago and
one of the organizers put out a new

1025
01:24:16.479 --> 01:24:25.520
press release saying these new files were
found. However, when that went out

1026
01:24:25.760 --> 01:24:30.319
at the same time, nearly the
same day, the MOD for some reason

1027
01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:36.119
posted on their updates, their FOYA
updates, that they are releasing these new

1028
01:24:36.239 --> 01:24:43.239
UFO files, but they referenced the
FOYA of a British gentleman who actually only

1029
01:24:43.279 --> 01:24:46.359
submitted the FOYA because he had heard
that John Burrows had done so prior to

1030
01:24:46.479 --> 01:24:54.640
him months prior. Isn't that weird? It is It's an interesting question because

1031
01:24:54.680 --> 01:24:58.960
it ties back into something we were
talking about earlier about the way that the

1032
01:24:59.039 --> 01:25:03.720
mood sometimes use spin to maybe kill
a story. A couple of things.

1033
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:11.000
Firstly, yeah, this UK researcher
simply slapped in a kind of I don't

1034
01:25:11.039 --> 01:25:15.439
mean this in a disparaging way,
but a kind of copycat FOI request to

1035
01:25:15.479 --> 01:25:18.720
say, Hey, what's all this
stuff about John Burrows? What are you

1036
01:25:18.800 --> 01:25:25.279
going to release now? At the
same time, there was a change at

1037
01:25:25.279 --> 01:25:29.359
the Ministry of Defense, and there
was a new Secretary of State in and

1038
01:25:29.479 --> 01:25:33.800
there were new Undersecretaries of State.
And one of the things that the ministers

1039
01:25:33.840 --> 01:25:41.199
decided was that they weren't posting enough
information on the Freedom of Information website,

1040
01:25:41.880 --> 01:25:47.079
so they wanted proactively to start doing
this. So copies of people's requests and

1041
01:25:47.119 --> 01:25:55.199
then the responses were and are on
a wide range of subjects posted now every

1042
01:25:55.279 --> 01:26:03.680
day. Now, this actually has
a somewhat kind of sneaky consequence in one

1043
01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:09.960
respect, and that it somehow sometimes
helps to kill a media story. And

1044
01:26:10.439 --> 01:26:15.159
let me explain that if a journalists
thinks, hey, I've got a scoop

1045
01:26:15.239 --> 01:26:19.159
here, you know, they may
run a story. But if the mod

1046
01:26:19.680 --> 01:26:25.359
says, hey, yeah, we've
had to release this to someone in the

1047
01:26:25.439 --> 01:26:30.880
UFO community, to a journalist.
Sometimes a way to actually kill the story

1048
01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:33.640
is to put it out, because
then the journalist thinks, well, it's

1049
01:26:33.680 --> 01:26:38.640
not really an exclusive anymore. It's
on the website, and if anyone ever

1050
01:26:38.720 --> 01:26:41.399
calls them out, it's like,
well, yeah, that's not a big

1051
01:26:41.680 --> 01:26:46.279
journalistic kind of discovery. It's look
here, it is on dot gov,

1052
01:26:46.319 --> 01:26:54.000
dot UK or whatever it's on.
So that's kind of what happened, I

1053
01:26:54.039 --> 01:26:59.479
think, But that's not to detract
from John's achievement in getting the story out,

1054
01:27:00.039 --> 01:27:03.880
and in fact, one national daily
newspaper in the UK, the Daily

1055
01:27:03.960 --> 01:27:11.159
Star, did put this story out
and did say, hey, remember last

1056
01:27:11.239 --> 01:27:15.359
year when the Ministry of Defense put
out some files and they said, well,

1057
01:27:15.479 --> 01:27:18.359
folks, that's it. You know, that's the end of this fantastic

1058
01:27:18.520 --> 01:27:24.920
five year program. We've now declassified
and released all the files. And the

1059
01:27:25.000 --> 01:27:28.680
Daily Star put out the story quite
rightly to say, oops, we've forgotten

1060
01:27:28.720 --> 01:27:34.279
some here's another eighteen files, which
is probably several thousand documents. And to

1061
01:27:34.319 --> 01:27:41.720
give you the time scales, the
Ministry of Defense is attempting to get those

1062
01:27:42.239 --> 01:27:45.760
to the National Archives by the end
of this year. So they've just really

1063
01:27:45.840 --> 01:27:49.359
got a you know, two or
three working days left now, and then

1064
01:27:49.399 --> 01:27:55.119
the National Archives will probably put them
out. It takes them a while to

1065
01:27:55.119 --> 01:28:00.920
prepare them. It will probably be
September twenty fifteen before they go out there.

1066
01:28:00.319 --> 01:28:05.119
But there will be documents from the
Defense Intelligence staff, there will be

1067
01:28:05.159 --> 01:28:11.640
documents from radar specialists. Some of
them will be Randal Sham Forest documents.

1068
01:28:11.720 --> 01:28:18.119
The vast majority will be other non
Rendalsham UFO documents. So interesting times ahead.

1069
01:28:18.119 --> 01:28:24.279
It's one of the big stories for
twenty fifteen that I'm looking forward to.

1070
01:28:24.479 --> 01:28:28.359
And indeed, this kind of embarrassing, Yeah, the embarrassing admission that

1071
01:28:28.720 --> 01:28:30.479
it wasn't the end of the program
after all was one of the big twenty

1072
01:28:30.520 --> 01:28:34.079
fourteen stories. I think. Well, it's funny that we were talking about

1073
01:28:34.079 --> 01:28:38.000
tracking your sources, because that's how
I came about it. And there is

1074
01:28:38.079 --> 01:28:43.319
confusion amongst you and I and John
over this because I went to write a

1075
01:28:43.399 --> 01:28:47.159
story on the Daily Star story,
but they didn't cite their sources, so

1076
01:28:47.399 --> 01:28:53.760
I had done extensive research, searching, searching, searching for their sources.

1077
01:28:54.479 --> 01:29:02.039
I found the mod say with the
posting of their infamy because it had come

1078
01:29:02.079 --> 01:29:08.479
out the same time, I assumed
that that was the source for The Daily

1079
01:29:08.560 --> 01:29:12.279
Star, which it was not.
Well, I still don't know for sure

1080
01:29:12.520 --> 01:29:15.239
what their source was because they were
very vague in that story, but I

1081
01:29:15.239 --> 01:29:17.239
think they had a quote from you, they had a quote from me.

1082
01:29:17.399 --> 01:29:24.840
They did have I think confirmation from
the Ministry of Defense Press Office, which

1083
01:29:25.000 --> 01:29:28.880
is not a resource that would be
open to the public. I mean,

1084
01:29:28.880 --> 01:29:32.119
that's really a sort of journalist to
journalist route, right, And that it

1085
01:29:32.159 --> 01:29:39.000
was their their exclusive story, which
I started was strange. They called it

1086
01:29:39.039 --> 01:29:44.279
exclusive because that stuff was up on
the MOD site, and then John contacted

1087
01:29:44.279 --> 01:29:47.159
me and corrected me and said,
hey, that's actually stuff that I had

1088
01:29:47.199 --> 01:29:49.680
retrieved, you know, months ago, and that's when we start. He

1089
01:29:49.760 --> 01:29:53.319
started clearing the air on this whole
thing, and we started to figure out

1090
01:29:53.520 --> 01:29:56.960
what the heck happened. Yeah,
it was unfortunate for John. I mean,

1091
01:29:56.960 --> 01:30:01.479
in a sense the MOD, I
think because John had been quite forthcoming

1092
01:30:01.520 --> 01:30:05.279
about this. I think a number
of people had written to the MOOD and

1093
01:30:05.399 --> 01:30:09.159
said, I don't know exactly what
I'm looking for, but I want what

1094
01:30:09.239 --> 01:30:13.439
John wants, and I want what
John has been promised. So at the

1095
01:30:13.520 --> 01:30:17.680
end of the day, when the
Mood put up a statement a letter on

1096
01:30:17.720 --> 01:30:25.960
its website saying we have found another
eighteen files and these are the titles and

1097
01:30:26.439 --> 01:30:30.399
this is when we're going to release
them. They put out something and they

1098
01:30:30.479 --> 01:30:35.039
just picked one of those letters and
it had some British ufologists name on.

1099
01:30:35.800 --> 01:30:41.640
It might just as well have had
John's name on. And arguably they have

1100
01:30:41.760 --> 01:30:45.520
been fairer to John if they had
put the one his name on, because

1101
01:30:45.560 --> 01:30:48.359
he was the first. But they
didn't. And I mean it's not the

1102
01:30:48.479 --> 01:30:54.800
mod's job, of course to kind
of I don't know, referee or row

1103
01:30:54.880 --> 01:30:58.079
about who got what first. I
mean, frankly, the Mood of course

1104
01:30:58.119 --> 01:31:01.279
isn't interested in that sort of thing. And how how big of a deal

1105
01:31:01.399 --> 01:31:04.920
is this? I mean that the
Mood said they released everything, and now

1106
01:31:05.039 --> 01:31:10.720
now they're like, oops, we've
got more. That of course lends people

1107
01:31:10.800 --> 01:31:13.720
to believe, well, there's probably
more that they don't know of if they've

1108
01:31:13.760 --> 01:31:15.840
got these, you know, thousands
of other files that they're going to put

1109
01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:19.399
out. Yes, I mean,
I think inevitably this is what I would

1110
01:31:19.640 --> 01:31:26.159
characterize as a good news story turning
into a bad news story for the MOD.

1111
01:31:26.560 --> 01:31:29.960
What starts off as being Hey,
look at us, look at our

1112
01:31:29.960 --> 01:31:36.760
commitment to FOI and to open government
ends up looking like either incompetence, you

1113
01:31:36.760 --> 01:31:41.159
know, oh dear, we've found
another eighteen files we didn't know we had,

1114
01:31:41.640 --> 01:31:45.119
or something even more sinister. Heck, we were trying to hide these,

1115
01:31:45.199 --> 01:31:51.239
but John John Burrows managed to kind
of expose you know that, and

1116
01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:55.600
kind of make it public. So, I mean, I think it probably

1117
01:31:55.640 --> 01:32:00.840
is more you know, can spira
up. Excuse me, I'll start a

1118
01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:04.720
conspiracy there. I think it is
more bureaucracy than conspiracy. But yeah,

1119
01:32:04.760 --> 01:32:10.079
of course it doesn't play well for
the mod and yes, it's going to

1120
01:32:10.119 --> 01:32:14.279
be a big story next year.
I think when these things do get made

1121
01:32:14.319 --> 01:32:17.720
public, I agree. I think
that he was able to get them to

1122
01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:24.479
release more fhiles is a big story
this year, and it's unfortunate that they

1123
01:32:24.520 --> 01:32:28.600
didn't get more attention. I've done
my best to try to get it more

1124
01:32:28.640 --> 01:32:31.479
attention because I think this is a
big deal. It is, and I

1125
01:32:31.520 --> 01:32:38.800
think one problem is that generally,
I mean, newspapers can be quite unscrupulous,

1126
01:32:39.279 --> 01:32:44.640
but generally speaking, when a newspaper
gets and announces that it has an

1127
01:32:44.680 --> 01:32:47.800
exclusive, as the Daily Star did
here being the first to break the story.

1128
01:32:48.439 --> 01:32:53.920
Other newspapers are less inclined to run
a story, not least because it

1129
01:32:53.960 --> 01:32:57.840
looks like they're following. And that's
a journalistic term. I don't know if

1130
01:32:57.880 --> 01:33:00.560
you use it here in the States, but in the UK you do not

1131
01:33:00.680 --> 01:33:04.000
want to be accused of following because
it is what it says. It just

1132
01:33:04.039 --> 01:33:09.399
makes you look very kind of second
place, and nobody wants to be second

1133
01:33:09.399 --> 01:33:14.479
place. So in a sense,
that's why this story didn't get quite as

1134
01:33:14.560 --> 01:33:18.359
much coverage as it might have done, because the Star had this as an

1135
01:33:18.359 --> 01:33:24.600
exclusive. And some of what gets
me excited about these files it's things that

1136
01:33:24.720 --> 01:33:30.640
you have said. It seems that
you, I'm not sure what sort of

1137
01:33:30.720 --> 01:33:35.000
insight you have into these files,
perhaps more than everyone else. Well as

1138
01:33:35.000 --> 01:33:39.680
ever, I've probably it's going to
be a mixed bag. So I suspect

1139
01:33:39.760 --> 01:33:43.880
I've written some of them or some
of the documents in them. But yeah,

1140
01:33:43.920 --> 01:33:47.600
inevitably I should we say, I
think I know what's coming. It's

1141
01:33:47.640 --> 01:33:51.479
not going to be a spaceship and
hanger smoking gun. Excuse me for using

1142
01:33:51.520 --> 01:33:55.600
that sound bite yet again, but
I think it's kind of you know,

1143
01:33:55.840 --> 01:33:58.520
everyone knows what I mean. It's
not going to be that, but it

1144
01:33:58.680 --> 01:34:03.840
is going to be extremely interesting.
Any intelligence documents on UFOs, I think

1145
01:34:03.920 --> 01:34:12.000
are inherently interesting in and of themselves. Certainly so, we're running out of

1146
01:34:12.039 --> 01:34:14.960
time, but I wanted to get
to this because it is the end of

1147
01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:20.079
the year. What other maybe UFO
story this year? Do you think it

1148
01:34:20.279 --> 01:34:25.119
was important that maybe people didn't pay
enough attention to or it did that you

1149
01:34:25.239 --> 01:34:30.039
just think were really big stories?
Well, I guess you know, I'm

1150
01:34:30.079 --> 01:34:34.680
not even going to go down the
YouTube route, I mean, because there's

1151
01:34:34.720 --> 01:34:40.600
just a zillion photos and films out
there. But I think the stories that

1152
01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:46.159
stood out for me were perhaps the
Boyd Bushman whistleblowing quote. You know,

1153
01:34:46.359 --> 01:34:51.920
yet more supposed government insiders claiming to
have worked at Area fifty one, claiming

1154
01:34:51.960 --> 01:34:57.359
to have worked on alien technology.
I mean, I think in the world

1155
01:34:57.359 --> 01:34:59.880
of intelligence we have a phrase,
and I know I've used it to you

1156
01:35:00.079 --> 01:35:03.239
before, interesting if true. But
that was undoubtedly a big story of the

1157
01:35:03.319 --> 01:35:06.159
year. The other one, which
I think is more important, and when

1158
01:35:06.479 --> 01:35:11.840
historians look back, if ever they
write up the official history of this will

1159
01:35:11.880 --> 01:35:16.199
be more important is the government initiatives. The Chilean government recent liaison with the

1160
01:35:16.239 --> 01:35:21.680
French government. I think that's a
big story because there are precious few governments

1161
01:35:21.680 --> 01:35:28.439
in the world still officially in the
UFO investigation business. So when you get

1162
01:35:28.479 --> 01:35:31.479
governments actually saying not only are we
still in that game, but we are

1163
01:35:31.520 --> 01:35:38.680
going to collaborate, that is essentially
moving forward in a field where a lot

1164
01:35:38.680 --> 01:35:44.039
of people either stand still or move
back. I so so so agree with

1165
01:35:44.079 --> 01:35:48.840
you. That's why I try to
follow closely what CEPHA and the other official

1166
01:35:48.920 --> 01:35:54.760
organizations are up to. But it
is so it gets to be a bit

1167
01:35:54.800 --> 01:36:00.960
disheartening when Boyd Bushman gets tens of
thousands of hits on her safe fully so

1168
01:36:00.960 --> 01:36:05.840
so. But stories like this very
important agreement between I think this the French

1169
01:36:05.880 --> 01:36:15.479
Aerospace Agency and ZEPHA gets a fraction, a tiny fraction of the attack.

1170
01:36:15.319 --> 01:36:19.399
The sexy sound fight always wins out, which is why I was very disappointed.

1171
01:36:19.399 --> 01:36:23.840
For example, and she puts a
brave face on it, but Leslie

1172
01:36:23.920 --> 01:36:31.199
Kane's pressed cry and the involvement of
the academic community kind of got overshadowed yet

1173
01:36:31.239 --> 01:36:38.760
again with a story about photos of
Roswell and aliens. Well that's always the

1174
01:36:38.800 --> 01:36:42.479
way in this kind of subject,
right, So my next question was going

1175
01:36:42.520 --> 01:36:45.000
to be the big stories of twenty
fifteen. You already mentioned the new mod

1176
01:36:45.159 --> 01:36:49.680
files. I'm very excited for that. You just mentioned something else which will

1177
01:36:49.680 --> 01:36:54.239
be a big story, no doubt
of twenty fifteen, because I know that

1178
01:36:54.600 --> 01:36:59.680
Tom Kerry and Don Schmid are planning
to release the evidence behind those slides of

1179
01:36:59.720 --> 01:37:04.199
these Raswell pictures, so we'll see, you know, the veracity behind that.

1180
01:37:04.680 --> 01:37:12.079
What else is in store for you
coming twenty fifteen, Well, I

1181
01:37:12.159 --> 01:37:15.119
think, Oh, by the way, I'll just very briefly mention one other

1182
01:37:15.159 --> 01:37:20.159
big story of twenty fourteen, which
is I think the NASA Library of Congress

1183
01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:28.359
Astrobiology symposium that was held in DC
three in yeah, back in September.

1184
01:37:28.479 --> 01:37:34.000
Yeah, didn't get as much coverage
as it might have done. But I

1185
01:37:34.039 --> 01:37:41.520
mean, you know, in terms
of the whole scientific community, through astrobiology,

1186
01:37:41.760 --> 01:37:45.159
maybe edging a little closer to the
kind of things that we're all interested

1187
01:37:45.239 --> 01:37:47.039
in is I think to be encouraged. And I think that was a big

1188
01:37:47.079 --> 01:37:54.720
story in twenty fourteen, and I'm
sure that astrobiology, through scientific discovery and

1189
01:37:54.800 --> 01:38:00.720
through other symposia will go from strength
to strength in twenty fifteen. And who

1190
01:38:00.800 --> 01:38:05.119
knows what discoveries lie ahead. But
I think it's exciting times for me personally.

1191
01:38:05.159 --> 01:38:11.359
What lies ahead in twenty fifteen is
a lot of television, and I

1192
01:38:11.439 --> 01:38:15.720
think sometimes people in the UFO community
roll their eyes at this and they say,

1193
01:38:15.720 --> 01:38:19.399
oh, more TV shows, And
yeah, I gotta admit I just

1194
01:38:19.479 --> 01:38:24.960
rolled my eyes. Well you know, well, you know, there are

1195
01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:29.439
some bad shows out there, but
there are some good ones too. There

1196
01:38:29.600 --> 01:38:35.199
is a second season of Nassas Unexplained
Files coming. I do like that one.

1197
01:38:35.479 --> 01:38:40.439
Yeah, that's that's a good one. There is a second season of

1198
01:38:41.640 --> 01:38:47.640
what's it called Close Encounters, Yeah, Canadian show, but so Discovery Canada,

1199
01:38:47.680 --> 01:38:54.239
but also shown on Science Channel in
the States and UK. Two I

1200
01:38:54.800 --> 01:38:58.760
think, and syndicated all around the
world. The big one that's coming,

1201
01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:01.520
And you know, I think an
announcement about this one was only made in

1202
01:39:01.560 --> 01:39:08.640
the last week or so. It's
UFOs declassified. Now. This is made

1203
01:39:08.640 --> 01:39:15.199
by a Canadian production company and it's
going to be on History Canada. But

1204
01:39:15.239 --> 01:39:17.359
it's also and here's the I think
the big news. It's going to be

1205
01:39:17.359 --> 01:39:21.680
on Smithsonian TV in the States.
And I mean, if ever a story

1206
01:39:21.920 --> 01:39:26.960
and if ever a complaint from the
UK from the UFO community is, Hey,

1207
01:39:27.000 --> 01:39:30.000
no one takes this seriously, and
you know, mainstream media and things.

1208
01:39:30.000 --> 01:39:35.279
For Smithsonian TV to touch the UFO
subject is I think interesting, and

1209
01:39:35.399 --> 01:39:40.399
this is going to be a I
think it's six or eight parts. But

1210
01:39:40.800 --> 01:39:46.800
UFOs declassified in Canada, in US
and in the UK is I think going

1211
01:39:46.840 --> 01:39:51.520
to be the show to look out
for in two twenty fifteen. But there

1212
01:39:51.520 --> 01:39:56.760
are many more, so, you
know, excuse the pun, watch this

1213
01:39:56.880 --> 01:40:02.960
space, but I'm involved in a
lot of this as in consultancy roles,

1214
01:40:02.960 --> 01:40:11.920
in kind of contributor role, in
on camera narrator or presenter or contributor role.

1215
01:40:12.119 --> 01:40:15.640
So yeah, twenty fifteen for me, a lot of TV, right,

1216
01:40:15.720 --> 01:40:18.520
Yeah, some of it's yeah,
some of it's in the can already

1217
01:40:18.880 --> 01:40:24.199
of course because of the Broadcasting League
times, and some of it is still

1218
01:40:24.239 --> 01:40:28.039
to be filmed, so busy times. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the

1219
01:40:28.119 --> 01:40:30.880
Smithsonian one, which I think it
might have aired the first one in Canada

1220
01:40:31.000 --> 01:40:34.880
or somewhere else. I think it's
going to air in Australia, but I

1221
01:40:34.920 --> 01:40:40.920
think it's maybe a different one.
Yeah. The world year is January ninth,

1222
01:40:41.119 --> 01:40:44.960
Oh, I see, And I
think that's only I think that's only

1223
01:40:45.000 --> 01:40:48.039
in Canada. I think the Smithsonian
TV that. But you know, there

1224
01:40:48.039 --> 01:40:51.560
are so many of these series at
the moment. Sometimes I know what you

1225
01:40:51.560 --> 01:40:56.720
mean. They kind of all blur
into one. But there is another one

1226
01:40:56.720 --> 01:41:01.119
which has about three different titles depending
on whether you're austrail. I was thinking

1227
01:41:01.239 --> 01:41:04.720
that's the one, Yeah, But
UFO is Declassified is a new one.

1228
01:41:04.720 --> 01:41:11.520
They've got their own Facebook group and
and you know, the website and things.

1229
01:41:11.600 --> 01:41:15.159
So that's that's the one. Oh
and of course I will be doing

1230
01:41:15.159 --> 01:41:17.439
a lot of conferences too, so
people can catch me on the road.

1231
01:41:18.560 --> 01:41:25.680
Well, thank you so much for
coming on and joining me again talking about

1232
01:41:25.760 --> 01:41:31.079
some of the latest and hottest topics
out there right right now. Renderl Schim,

1233
01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:36.439
which happened so long ago but is
such a hot topic, and rightfully

1234
01:41:36.520 --> 01:41:42.720
so has remained one for so long. Yes, I think it's it's an

1235
01:41:42.720 --> 01:41:46.840
intriguing mystery, and the mystery will
continue. I have no doubt of that.

1236
01:41:47.319 --> 01:41:51.000
All right, Thank you very much, Thank you, Thank you so

1237
01:41:51.279 --> 01:41:58.600
much to Nick Pope for joining us
this week. Very informative, great stuff.

1238
01:41:58.760 --> 01:42:00.319
You know, I think it's important
that we get all points of view,

1239
01:42:00.399 --> 01:42:03.760
so I'm glad that we were able
to talk to Nick and Rendelsham.

1240
01:42:04.479 --> 01:42:06.880
You know, we've been beating it
to death here, but there's so much

1241
01:42:06.920 --> 01:42:11.359
interesting stuff. It's like Roswell.
Really, people think, oh, what

1242
01:42:11.399 --> 01:42:14.319
more can you say? Well,
you can say more. There's more research

1243
01:42:14.439 --> 01:42:16.640
going on all the time, and
there are new developments in some of these

1244
01:42:16.960 --> 01:42:20.479
bigger cases that are really important,
and I don't think we should let him

1245
01:42:20.520 --> 01:42:26.039
go. I think we should continue
to research them. So really interesting stuff.

1246
01:42:26.079 --> 01:42:31.600
Thanks again to Nick for that.
Also, I want to remind everybody

1247
01:42:31.640 --> 01:42:35.199
about the UFO Congress. You know
what I've told you how we're going to

1248
01:42:35.239 --> 01:42:38.880
have Bob Lazar, which is a
big deal. You know, the Area

1249
01:42:38.920 --> 01:42:42.840
fifty one whistleblower. He's the one
who put Area fifty one on the map.

1250
01:42:43.039 --> 01:42:47.359
Many people know that Stanton Friedman has
some doubts about what mister Lazarre has

1251
01:42:47.399 --> 01:42:51.159
to say. And I've had a
lot of people when I've gone around saying,

1252
01:42:51.279 --> 01:42:56.079
oh, Man, Stanton Friedman will
never go to that conference because he

1253
01:42:56.680 --> 01:43:00.640
doesn't want to be anywhere around Lazarre
because he thinks Lazar is lying. Not

1254
01:43:00.880 --> 01:43:02.119
the case. In fact, I
get to spend a lot of time with

1255
01:43:02.159 --> 01:43:06.000
Stanton Friedman. Luckily, here and
there at different conferences. And the first

1256
01:43:06.000 --> 01:43:09.359
time I saw him and I said, hey, did you hear about Lazzari?

1257
01:43:09.439 --> 01:43:11.640
He said, oh, yeah,
that'd be great. You know,

1258
01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:14.840
I'd love to be there. And
I told him that's funny because people say

1259
01:43:14.840 --> 01:43:15.720
you would never go, and he
says, well, I can't. I

1260
01:43:15.720 --> 01:43:19.319
wouldn't be much of a researcher if
I didn't want to back up what I

1261
01:43:19.359 --> 01:43:24.479
say, So of course I wouldn't
mind being there. And he actually agrees

1262
01:43:25.640 --> 01:43:28.920
that there are some compelling pieces to
what Lazarre has to say, but he

1263
01:43:29.159 --> 01:43:33.399
believes that some of it just flat
out isn't accurate, namely when it comes

1264
01:43:33.439 --> 01:43:40.279
to his degrees. So Friedman has
some interesting things to say about Lazarre,

1265
01:43:40.399 --> 01:43:45.439
and he will be at the UFO
Congress. Friedman won't be speaking, will

1266
01:43:45.479 --> 01:43:49.359
probably be able to get him onto
a panel here or there to be able

1267
01:43:49.399 --> 01:43:57.800
to share some of his insight.
However, he will have a table at

1268
01:43:57.840 --> 01:44:03.359
the UFO Congress and he will be
there the entire time with his colleague Kathleen

1269
01:44:03.439 --> 01:44:08.960
Martin, who he's written his latest
books with, and they'll be selling their

1270
01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:12.680
books. But he will also be
available so when Bob Blazar talks. You'll

1271
01:44:12.680 --> 01:44:15.000
be able to say, Stanton,
what'd you think of this? What do

1272
01:44:15.039 --> 01:44:16.600
you think of that? And hopefully, you know, we'll be able to

1273
01:44:16.600 --> 01:44:21.720
have George ask a couple of Stanton's
questions to Lazarre. So really interesting.

1274
01:44:21.840 --> 01:44:28.279
I'm so excited because, as I've
said before, even if you're skeptical about

1275
01:44:28.359 --> 01:44:31.880
Lazar, George Knapp is going to
do a talk that is really compelling.

1276
01:44:32.000 --> 01:44:35.640
I mean, it really makes you
scratch your head. I think even the

1277
01:44:36.000 --> 01:44:41.479
most hardened skeptic has to walk away
from naps talk and go, well,

1278
01:44:41.560 --> 01:44:44.239
you know what, he's got some
good points there. And then of course

1279
01:44:44.279 --> 01:44:47.079
that'll be followed up with the Q
and A with Bob Lazar. That's just

1280
01:44:47.199 --> 01:44:51.239
one of many, many exciting and
really interesting talks we're going to have there.

1281
01:44:51.479 --> 01:44:56.199
I haven't said much about James Gilliland
because he was the last person we

1282
01:44:56.239 --> 01:45:00.560
finally confirmed. He runs the E. Sdie Ranch and Why Washington where they

1283
01:45:00.640 --> 01:45:03.880
have a lot of UFO sidings,
and he's got a lot of videos he's

1284
01:45:03.920 --> 01:45:08.119
going to share with us, so
that ought to be really interesting. But

1285
01:45:08.159 --> 01:45:13.840
we have just an incredible amount of
great speakers there. Ufocongress dot Com tickets

1286
01:45:13.920 --> 01:45:17.600
are selling very quickly. If you're
on our physical snail mail list, you

1287
01:45:17.640 --> 01:45:21.760
should be getting a full brochure in
the mail if you haven't already. That

1288
01:45:21.880 --> 01:45:27.520
outlines all of the speakers and our
current schedule. Of course, that is

1289
01:45:27.520 --> 01:45:30.159
subject to change. I don't think
it'll change much, if at all,

1290
01:45:30.640 --> 01:45:35.640
but you never know what's going to
happen between now and February eighteenth to the

1291
01:45:35.680 --> 01:45:41.359
twenty second, which is when the
conference is so really exciting. What's cool

1292
01:45:41.399 --> 01:45:44.000
this year too, is a lot
of researchers who haven't been able to make

1293
01:45:44.039 --> 01:45:47.720
it out before are planning to be
able to make it this year, probably

1294
01:45:47.800 --> 01:45:51.479
mostly because they want to see Bob
Blazark, because this is kind of in

1295
01:45:51.560 --> 01:45:57.000
the UFO field, a bit historic
in that he has not addressed a large

1296
01:45:57.199 --> 01:46:00.079
crowd like this or done a large
event like this. He's done US small,

1297
01:46:00.640 --> 01:46:03.359
really really small. I think there
was only a dozen people or so

1298
01:46:03.479 --> 01:46:06.960
there event in the middle of the
desert, But this will be the first

1299
01:46:08.000 --> 01:46:11.960
time he's really done a live presentation, so this should be exciting. UFO

1300
01:46:12.000 --> 01:46:16.159
Congress dot Com come to the conference. Oh this is cool too. Speaking

1301
01:46:16.199 --> 01:46:23.159
of George Knapp, I will be
on the air with him this weekend talking

1302
01:46:23.199 --> 01:46:28.760
to him about UFOs and kind of
the best cases and year in review on

1303
01:46:29.159 --> 01:46:32.800
Sunday night, so early Monday morning
really, so that'll be a lot of

1304
01:46:32.840 --> 01:46:36.800
fun. I always love talking to
George on coast to coast there, so

1305
01:46:38.720 --> 01:46:42.000
watch out for that. Thank you
to a recent show I was on on

1306
01:46:42.079 --> 01:46:46.279
Truth Frequency with Chris Geo, him
and his wife, a very nice couple.

1307
01:46:47.000 --> 01:46:53.920
We talked the other day. But
thank you to everybody out there who

1308
01:46:54.079 --> 01:46:57.000
he's had us on and supported us
this year. It's been a great year

1309
01:46:57.399 --> 01:47:00.800
and we will do our year and
review like we talked about next week.

1310
01:47:00.119 --> 01:47:08.039
Thank you to Caleb Hanks who does
the music opening and close. He has

1311
01:47:08.199 --> 01:47:13.840
a ep out called The Clerk Chronicles
and it's also an animation that he does.

1312
01:47:13.880 --> 01:47:16.720
He's an artist on many different levels, music and drawing, and his

1313
01:47:16.800 --> 01:47:20.359
stuff is really cool. So you
can find a link there on the radio

1314
01:47:20.399 --> 01:47:28.960
page for us for that. Also, we did film our last spacing out

1315
01:47:29.159 --> 01:47:31.560
for the year and that is posted
on YouTube, so you got to check

1316
01:47:31.600 --> 01:47:36.199
that out where we talk about some
of these great stories and Jason and Maureen

1317
01:47:36.239 --> 01:47:41.920
and I. So that's a lot
of fun and more to come. But

1318
01:47:42.159 --> 01:47:45.479
thank you all you listeners for joining
us every week. Sorry we didn't have

1319
01:47:45.560 --> 01:47:48.720
a show last week, but we've
got one this week. We're gonna have

1320
01:47:48.760 --> 01:47:53.840
one next week. Even though it's
the holidays, We're coming through for you

1321
01:47:54.159 --> 01:47:58.399
all. So thank you all for
listening. I hope you have a wonderful

1322
01:47:58.479 --> 01:49:00.319
week. We will talk to you
you soon. Adios, moved Jos Moss