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Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willisher, host and we

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have another great show for you this
evening. I'm excited about it and I

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want to welcome everyone. This week's
guest is Shane Ryan. I would consider

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him like a lead investigator on our
researcher into the nineteen sixty six Westall UFO

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incident. I has several different names, the Westall Flying Saucer Incident, things

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like that, but anyway, it
is a school another school. Yard are

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citing very very interesting long with a
cover up and all kinds of very interesting

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things happen throughout that. A little
bit of housekeeping first. First of all,

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I want to thank everyone that helps
out with the show. Anyone can

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support the show, and we're also
on Patreon as well, and that will

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get you a feed to the full
two hour shows. There's a feed over

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there for that as well as if
anyone signs up at podcast ufo dot com.

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There's also the feed there and archives
that goes way back. So,

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as I said, a little housekeeping. I get a lot of email every

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week about Alejandro. Everyone's worried about
Alandre, which I think is nice.

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So I talked to him today.
He's doing really well. He's just he's

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got so much going on, he's
not up to date. I invited him

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on tonight as well, but he
couldn't make tonight show. He says he's

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just not up to date with what's
going on in UFOs, hasn't been paying

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attention too much. But he said
to his listeners of Open Minds, which

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I do help him out with.
Um. He had a nice interview and

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recently he's going to be posting that
soon, so keep your eye out for

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that. For those of you who
listen to the Open Minds show, T

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shirts and stuff we do. We
have a new new site on our website

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actually a merchandise store or whatever you
want to call it. There's a link

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on podcast ufo dot com that has
a great T shirts. There's two different

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types of graphics you can choose from
and one works really well with dark shirts

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and one works with either or light
or duck and as well as shirts as

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other products over there too, all
with the podcast Ufo graphic on the very

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nice graphic by the way, and
Diane Cash made that beautiful job. So

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we also have a blog over at
our website, podcast ufo dot com and

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that is about guess what. The
Westall UFO Charles Leear wrote an article blog

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about that incident, so you can
read up on that if you want more

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information, that's on the website as
well. The next three weeks are going

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to be tricky for me. Next
week, I have a big job in

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my career that I actually do and
I'm not gonna be able to do a

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live show next week, so I'm
going to try to figure that out.

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So if you're watching live on YouTube
or just watch the shows on YouTube,

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just click the bell if you're a
subscriber, or please do a subscribe and

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click the little bell and that will
send you notifications of when my show will

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be coming up. But I am
going to be prerecording. If you are

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a podcast listener, do not fret
because it'll be out Tuesday nights, same

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as always. And I'm not one
hundred percent sure if I'm going to be

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streaming these shows live on YouTube or
not. I'll get that figured out.

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I had Chris O'Brien for next week, but he just informed me that he's

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on his way to the West coast, so he's not able to be on

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the show. So I do not
know who my guest is going to be

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next week. I'm working on that
right now, and I think that might

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be I might be out of stuff
to talk about, and that's plenty.

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And anyway, I'm going to now
invite our guests. Welcome to the show.

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Shane, Hello, Martin, all
the way over there in mine.

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It's lovely to see you again.
That's right. Yeah, we're doing that

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time travel here. You're you're actually
in Wednesday, right, Wednesday morning?

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Yeah, exactly. And you know
it was this month, six years ago

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that we last chatted on your show. I can't believe it. Yeah,

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de Samba twenty thirteen, six years
ago. I can't be label that time

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has passed already. I know,
I know, and wasn't two. I

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was sixteen. Was the fiftieth anniversary, right, that was kind of a

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exactly. So when I started this
research, I was actually a brunette and

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I didn't need spectacles. So you're
now looking at what happens when you do

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fourteen years of UFO research into one
single UFO story. This is what it

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does to you. Yeah, well
I had a full head of hair too.

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You're looking great, ye. So
but before we get into that,

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also, I just wanted to talk
quickly. You're not really that far.

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I brought this up a few times
with people in California, but you're not

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too far from the fires, right. We're very close to where the fires

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are happening. So we've had an
extremely early start to the bush fire season

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in Australia this year. It actually
started in the middle of spring. Normally

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we don't get really any serious bush
fires until late December early January, so

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well into summer. So I think
what's happening is it's really analogous to what

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happened in California in their autumn and
when they were getting very bad bush fires

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unseasonally. In terms of time and
the extremity of the fires that were happening

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in California, we're terrible. Of
course, we're getting it here now in

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Australia, particularly in our eastern states, so New South Wales, parts of

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Queensland, parts of Victoria. I
live in Canberra, which of course is

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in the Australian Capital Territory, which
is surrounded by New South Wales, quite

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similar to the district of Columbia in
America. But we're close to where the

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fires are as well, and many
of our big cities like Brisbane and Sydney,

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Camera are being shrouded with bush fire
smoke day in day out. Here

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in Camera we're quite high, with
the highest city in Australian in terms of

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altitude. We sit at about five
eighty meters above sea level, so we

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tend to have very clear skies here. We don't have much in the way

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of heavy industry, and Canberra,
I guess a little bit similar to Washington

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or Ottawa and so our air who
is usually clear and pristine, but we're

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getting this bush fire smoke as it
blows in from the bush fires nearby.

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And apparently the the health people,
the medical people are telling us that it's

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equivalent to smoking five to ten cigarettes
per day when we breathed in this bush

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fire smoke, and particularly in places
like Sydney, they've been doing this on

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a daily basis for a couple of
weeks now. So it's it's terrible.

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Wow wow, and not as far
as the crow flies, probably in the

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hundreds of miles night their thousand.
So get the volcano right in New Zealand,

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yes, so exactly how far away
that is from you, but still

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that's right. That was terrible and
White Island in the Bay of plenty in

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New Zealand, and unfortunately most of
the people who seem to have been caught

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up with that, both in terms
of fatalities and injuries, are Australian tourists

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and people from other countries as well, of course. But it's just shocking,

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terrible, wow, wow, a
lot of stuff going on. Well,

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where you live is not really too
far away from where this incident happened,

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is that right? Are you very
close? It's certainly closer than Maine.

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So I'm in Canberra, and where
this incident happened was in Melbourne,

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which is the state capital city of
Victoria, Australia's second largest city, So

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about eight hours drive, but yes, not very far at an aeroplane.

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I imagine a little bit faster in
a flying saucer, I'm sure. And

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that's what we're going to talk about. So let's first of all, I

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think, before I get into the
internet itself, just I've wanted to find

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out did you have an interest in
UFOs yourself prior to this case or is

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this what kind of led you into
the study of UFOs? Are looking at

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them? Well, as everyone says, that's a long and convolute story.

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Of course. Two hours. I
think I think like a lot of kids,

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especially boys. I think often boys
perhaps more than girls. To generalize

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a little bit, I had a
little bit of an interest in things like

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UFOs and space and and mysterious things. And you know, I can actually

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trace it back quite specifically to when
I was about twelve or thirteen years old,

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and I was wandering through the department
store in the city in which I

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grew up, in a place called
Shepperton, about two hours north of Melbourne

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in Victoria, and there was a
city of about twenty five thousand people,

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and we only had one department store, and the favorite part of that store

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for me was the book section.
And back in those days, this was

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the late nineteen seventies, we didn't
have a lot of specialized bookstores back then

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in my town. So often if
you were interested in reading, you'd go

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to this book section in this department
store. And I can remember one day

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wandering in and on a stand was
a series of books World Mysteries, and

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one of the titles was about ghosts, and one of the titles was about

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monsters, and one of the other
titles was flying Sources UFOs, and I

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picked it up and was lavishly illustrated
all these wonderful color pictures, not photographs,

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but there were some photographs, but
mainly pictures illustrations. And there were

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some what I now know to be
quite well known cases mentioned in the book,

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like the Kelly Poppins bill case,
I think the case that helped to

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give rise to the term Little Green
Men, and the Thomas Mantel incident.

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Thomas Mantel, of course, who'll
remember, was shot down chasing something over

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the skies of Kentucky. I think
it was back in the nineteen fifties.

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So there was some of these classic
so called UFO cases, and I was

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fascinated, and so I bought the
one about UFOs, I bought the one

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about ghosts. I think I left
the one about monsters on the shelf because

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I think that was just a little
bit too frightening, and I took them

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home, and I think that's where
it started. And also, of course

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at that time on television, there
was some classic UFO related TV shows like

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Project Blue Book. Do you remember
Project blue Book? I think it was

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sometimes called Project UFO in America.
Yeah, Project UFO, right, that's

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right. So when it was televised
in Australia was called Project Blue Book and

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I watched that, as a lot
of people did. And then of course

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there was the wonderful program in Searchiles
posted by the late Leonard nimoy Yea,

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and it was all fascinating to me. And I think part of the reason

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it was fascinating for me was my
father had passed away when I was one

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year old, and I was very
much aware of his absence when I was

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growing up and my mother raising me
on her own, and I was very

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conscious of there being this mysterious aspect
to life, that there was something potentially

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beyond what was immediately obvious to us, that there perhaps was really an unseen

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world as well as a scene world. And as a child, I think

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I was rather impressionable and impressed by
that. But because I'd had a father,

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but my father had passed away and
he was now gone from me,

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I felt, well, there must
be this other world where things aren't immediately

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visible, and I think that played
into where this perhaps all began. But

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of course that was when I was
a child, and as I grew up

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and graduated from secondary school and went
to university and started work, those things

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got left behind as they do because
you get involved in work and all the

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demands of being an adult, and
so I really sort of pushed all those

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things aside and didn't really think about
the UFO subject again until I moved from

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my hometown Shepherdon and went down to
Melbourne to start my university study. And

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I went to a university called Monash
University, which as it turned out,

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is only about five ten kilometers maybe
not even that up the road from Westall,

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but I had an idea about Westall
at the time. But what did

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happen was I was doing a bit
of university. I started that I was

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actually doing a degree in Japanese studies
because in the intervening years I'd been sent

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to Japan as an exchange student by
the Rotary International Rotary Organization and had come

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back from living in Japan for a
year very interested in Japanese culture, Japanese

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language, Japanese politics, and started
a degree at Monash University in Japanese.

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But very what's the word, I
guess it sort of happens stance. I

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found a place to live near the
university with a lady who was just beginning

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to retire from her long career at
that time. As an infant welfare nurse

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in Melbourne, and she had been
for a few years hosting university students at

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her home as boarders, both Australian
students and students from other countries, and

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I was in search of a place
to stay, and so I ended up

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becoming a boarder at her house,
and we became good friends over the years

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that I lived with her, and
she happened to mention to me one day

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that she had a couple of friends
who knew about a flying sourcer incident which

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had happened up the road from where
we were living, again, only about

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fifteen kilometers away, at a place
called Westall, which I never never even

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heard of, And she told me
the bare bones of the story. She

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didn't know a great deal about it, but simply that this school, Westall

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High School, and the school next
door, the Westall State Primary School,

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had been involved in this mass sighting
of a flying saucer, and that hundreds

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of people had seen it, kids
had seen it, some of the teachers

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were involved, some of the local
residents were involved, and she knew this

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from these friends of hers, and
so she told me the story, and

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we actually I remember doing this.
We actually did a drive in her car.

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We went over to Westall and we
drove around the perimeter of the school,

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and we didn't know what we were
doing or what we were looking at,

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of course, we were just going
for a drive. And then we

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drove back home to her house where
I was living, and pretty much forgot

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about it, except for the fact
that at some point afterwards I came across

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a book by an Australian author,
a fellow called John Pinckney, who had

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a long career as a newspaper reporter
and an author in Australia. And John

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also had a strong interest in UFOs
and the paranormal and things that were a

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little bit unusual, mystery stories,
unsold murders, people who had disappeared,

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and he penned several books over the
years on that topic. And I happened

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to pick up one of those books, this is the one actually called a

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Paranormal File by John Pickney, and
I opened it up and lo and behold,

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there were a couple of sections in
the book about Westall, like this

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one the saucer that shocked a school
and just a few pages two and a

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half pages, and then there was
another small section students punished for discussing the

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Westall UFO, and so I read
these sections in his book, and of

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course it confirmed some of the details
that my friend had heard from her friends.

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And that was the end of it
for me, because I was working,

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I'd done some university and then I
went back over to Japan to live

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and did some more university study there
and completely forgot about the Westall story.

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Just didn't think of it at all
until years later, many years later.

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In fact, it was two thousand
and five when my friend who had told

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me this story had actually by that
stage passed away, and I was looking

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around for a story to write a
book about. I was having an early

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midlife crisis, I think, and
I wanted to pan a book about something

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I've had some roll by the way, that's right, And I was particularly

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interested in writing a book that would
be read by children and young adults,

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teenagers. And I don't know how
it came into my mind. It popped

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into my mind, and I don't
know from where or how I remembered this

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story, a story about a UFO
incident that had happened at a couple of

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schools, and I had been witnessed
by all of these people, young people

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00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:32,519
and some adults, and I thought
to myself, well, a lot of

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00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:34,400
what I've heard, not that I
had heard very much about it, is

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00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:40,119
probably not true. It's probably partly
an urban legend, and there must have

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been accretions to the story and things
that had been perhaps made up, not

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maliciously, but just as these things
happen over time. So I thought,

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well, I'll do a little bit
of research, and I set up a

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Yahoo groups website. This is way
back before social media, before Facebook,

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when Yahoo Groups is one of the
main ways that you could make contact with

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00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:07,160
people over the interne and in my
innocence and naivety, I set up this

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Yahoo group's website, put it out
into cyberspace and to see what would happen.

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And some people noticed it, and
I got some people contacting me about

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the story. And I actually had
a couple of articles posted printed in a

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couple of the local newspapers around Westall
and that led to quite a response from

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00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,640
people, people who did actually as
I was hoping they would, remembered the

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story and had actually been involved in
the story. And one witness led to

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three, and then three led to
six, and six led to twelve.

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00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:48,359
And it went on like that,
and then the science editor of the main

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00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:55,599
broadsheet newspaper in Melbourne, a newspaper
called The Age, saw the story and

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he for some reason was quite interested
in it, and he contacted me,

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00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:06,000
and that led to an almost full
page article back in two thousand and five

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00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:11,440
about the Westall story, and from
there it just sort of bloomed and blossomed,

239
00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:21,240
and more people contacted me. But
and that eventually led to a filmmaker

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00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,960
in Melbourne by the name of Rosie
Jones, a very accomplished filmmaker, seeing

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00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:32,559
that story because she's a reader of
the Age newspaper and she happened to come

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00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:37,160
across the article, she contacted me. She flew up to me to Canberra

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00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:41,000
from Melbourne. We sat down,
I remember we had our meeting in the

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00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,960
National Film and Sounder Archive building in
Canberra was very a lovely building and a

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00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,079
lovely setting, very appropriate for Rosie
as a filmmaker, and I simply told

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00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,319
her the story as I understood it
and what my interest was, and she

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00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,640
went back to Melbourne, thought about
it for a couple of weeks, contacted

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00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,759
me and said, Shane, it's
an interesting story and I'm interested in it.

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From a couple of angles, would
you be interested in participating in a

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00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:11,519
documentary film about it and about your
research in it? And again, in

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00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:17,039
my innocence, in my naivety and
perhaps lack of modesty, I said,

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sure, that sounds like a wonderful
idea, and that's what led to the

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two and ten film being broadcast on
the Australian sci fi channel Westill sixty six.

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00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,079
Oh yeah, subourbon ufome Mystery.
I believe that's up on YouTube if

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00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:37,519
I'm if I'm not mistaken now,
I believe it is because I think I

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00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:41,640
watched that a while back. We
only have about two minutes before we're going

257
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,160
into the break, so we just
have to keep that in mind. But

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I did want to start talking about
the story itself. Was April six or

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00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,839
something like that, nineteen sixty six. Yeah, but again we only have

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00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:03,240
about a minute, so I think
what I'm going to do is, hopefully

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00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:07,400
I'll just go right into the break
now and we'll talk about the incident itself

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00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:11,599
when we come back. So hanging
everyone, We'll be right back right after

263
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:18,160
these messages. And so at this
time I usually talk about a different,

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different topic, and so I am
wondering if you can talk about the UFO

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00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:32,640
groups that are in I know there's
the Victoria group. I actually interviewed some

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00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,000
representatives from that, had a great
time with them and Phoenix last year they

267
00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:41,200
were there and not last year,
a few months ago in September. I

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00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:45,559
had a really wonderful time with that
group there. And but are there a

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00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:52,000
lot of other like active groups on
UFOs? There are some. I think

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00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:59,759
the era of the UFO groups is
not as strong as it once falls,

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00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:03,680
so I think obviously, going back
to the nineteen fifty sixty seventies and the

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00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:10,079
early part of the nineteen eighties,
there were a lot of UFO groups based

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in the various states of Australia and
often they would meet in the state capital

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cities, which in Australia, unlike
the American tradition, all of our state

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and territory capital cities are the largest
cities and so that's where most people live,

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00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:29,279
and so other meetings were generally held
there. And of course they were

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I mean, they were very much
into UFO research, but they were also

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00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,279
they were social groups, they support
groups, and they were bringing in a

279
00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:45,119
little bit like a service club or
a church or some other social organization.

280
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,759
They were very much about coming together, talking about the latest sightings, discussing

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00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:52,680
research, but having a cup of
tea and a scorn and a cake and

282
00:24:53,480 --> 00:25:00,200
maybe doing occasional occasional excursion and going
on a field trip. And with the

283
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:06,039
passage of time and the advent of
social media and the Internet, and that's

284
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all broken down a little bit,
which in a way is a little ad

285
00:25:10,519 --> 00:25:14,079
but the groups still exist. They've
morphed a little bit over the years into

286
00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:18,640
different formats. But of course the
group you mentioned, the Victorian UFO Action

287
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:25,960
Group in Victoria based in Melbourne,
it's in a way replaced an earlier organization

288
00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:30,880
which had existed previously to that.
There's another group in New South Wales and

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00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:36,640
in Queensland. Perhaps smaller groups in
Tasmania and South Australia and Western Australia.

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00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:40,400
But a lot of the way people
communicate these days is of course like this,

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00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,200
like we're doing over YouTube and the
Internet and Facebook. But I think

292
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:51,640
those groups still have an important role
to play and I've certainly appreciated the support

293
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,279
the Victorian UFO Action Group have shown
me in recent years. They've very much

294
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:04,200
taken on the West Still story is
one of their celebrated stories. Yeah,

295
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,960
and some of the members of the
group are researching it as well, and

296
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:14,599
they've always been very supportive of me
and have organized a couple of events over

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00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,119
recent years to talk about it.
Right. I think when I was meeting

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00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:26,319
first with Ben Hurrell and a few
other people in Phoenix, they someone message

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00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,799
messaged you right away because I had
your old email address. I had been

300
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:34,279
trying to reach you and it was
not you were not getting the emails,

301
00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:38,680
and so that's what actually made this
connection. And here we are, all

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00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:44,680
right, everyone, welcome back my
guests this evening is Shane Ryan from Australia.

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00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,960
We're talking about the westall Ufo Incident
or westall Ufo has many names,

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00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:56,480
like I mentioned, and let's talk
about the incident exactly what happened. It's

305
00:26:56,519 --> 00:27:02,759
it's it's quite amazing actually, the
amount of witnesses and all that. So

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00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,559
if you would go over exactly what
happened in April six, eighteen sixty six,

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00:27:08,519 --> 00:27:12,400
sure, Martin, thank you for
that. It's an important incident because

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00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,039
it did happen, as you mentioned, on the sixth of April in nineteen

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00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:25,240
sixty six, and unlike I guess
most UFO incidents, this was unusual in

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00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:30,559
that it happened in broad daylight.
It was about ten fifteen in the morning

311
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:37,640
when it first happened, and it
happened in front of literally hundreds of people.

312
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:44,039
So initially it was in front of
the two classes of kids who were

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00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:49,640
doing physical education classes on the sports
ground at Westall High School and Westall by

314
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,160
the way, it's about twenty one
kilometers south east of the Central Business District,

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00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,599
the center of Melbourne, so at
that time in nineteen sixty six,

316
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:03,279
a suburb u an area but on
the fringe, so it was partially suburban

317
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:10,240
and rapidly becoming more so. But
it was also partially still country, semi

318
00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:15,119
agricultural, so mixed in around the
houses and some of the factories and shops

319
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:21,000
that were being built were still market
garden areas, farms, and so it

320
00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:26,359
was a mixture of both city and
country. But it was an instant that

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00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,160
happened in front of a large number
of people. Initially those two groups doing

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00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:38,279
pe on the sports ground, but
then when the recess bell went that then

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00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:45,000
involved literally almost the entire population of
the school coming out onto the sports ground

324
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,839
and witnessing what the other kids had
been seeing five or ten minutes previously,

325
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and before the recess bell went,
one of the students who was doing physical

326
00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:02,599
education on the sports ground came rushing
in to the classroom that was being a

327
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,759
class being taught by Andrew Greenwood,
who was one of the science teachers at

328
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:10,200
the school. He was up a
young teacher, was his first year of

329
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,240
teaching, he was only about twenty
one years old himself. And a girl

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00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:17,359
rushed in from the class saying,
mister Greenwood, mister Greenwood, there are

331
00:29:17,359 --> 00:29:22,920
flying sources outside, flying sources outside, and of course the classroom erupted into

332
00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:27,079
pandemonium, but Andrew brought the class
back under control. He told the student

333
00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:30,960
to not be silly and to go
back out to the sports granted to close

334
00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:34,960
the door, which he did,
and he brought the class back under control.

335
00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:40,519
But it was literally only about five
minutes later that the recess bell went,

336
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,880
and Andrew Greenwood's interest was actually piqued, as you would imagine, and

337
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,920
so we actually went out to the
sports ground and the class followed him,

338
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,119
and lo and behold, he actually
did see what all the other kids had

339
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:59,480
been watching for the previous five or
ten minutes, and he saw one Andrew

340
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:04,240
Greenwood or one flying saucer shaped object
up in the sky. Now, as

341
00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:08,319
I'm talking about this incident, is
always a little bit difficult because it's hard

342
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:14,759
for me to know whether to use
the singular or the plural. Because even

343
00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:19,240
though most of the witnesses and so
far I've actually been in contact with one

344
00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:26,920
hundred and seventeen people who the flying
saucer or flying saucers, there is a

345
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:32,440
smaller group, a subset of that
nineteen people that I've been in contact with,

346
00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:36,440
so nineteen out of the one hundred
and seventeen who are adamant, there

347
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:41,559
were more than one, and they
remembered them being two or three. So

348
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:44,519
it does seem to me that there
was more than one. But it's true

349
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:48,680
to say that most of the witnesses
remember saying one. And Andrew green would

350
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,400
have certainly one of those people.
But as he went out, most of

351
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,759
the rest of the school joined him
on the sports ground, and there were

352
00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:02,240
kids literally hanging off the perimeter fences
off the school on the western side and

353
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:06,039
the southern side, looking up at
the sky, trying to get a closer

354
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:11,680
look at this object. And the
object that most people remember seeing was in

355
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,599
that classic flying source of shape that
were so used to people talking about,

356
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,440
particularly from that era from the nineteen
fifties and the nineteen sixties, And so

357
00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:25,000
they describe it as being like a
bowl on top of another bowl, or

358
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,920
a bowl on top of a plate. Some people even describe it as a

359
00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:32,319
tea cup on top of a plate, which I guess is a very British

360
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,839
or Australian way of describing the saucer. But don't mean there was a handle

361
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,480
on the cup, but it was
like a cup or bowl shape on top

362
00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:48,759
of another bowl or plate shape.
And that it was metallic looking, that

363
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,799
it was silver or gray in color. But it didn't seem to be making

364
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,559
any sound, or if it did, it was a very very low humming

365
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,000
sound. There didn't seem to be
any obvious windows or port holes, no

366
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:13,960
obvious rivets or scenes or joins.
And that it was flying without any of

367
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,480
the attributes you would normally associate with
a flying object. So no tail,

368
00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:23,759
no fins, no wings, no
strings or ropes, no propellers, no

369
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:30,160
engines. So something very mysterious.
And you have to remember that there was

370
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,440
a very busy airport called Marabin Airport, only five kilometers away from the schools.

371
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,160
At that time, Marabin Airport was
Melbourne's second airport, and it was

372
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:46,079
actually by flight number a number of
flights, about the busiest airport in the

373
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:52,319
Southern Hemisphere at that time. And
there was almost no possible time you could

374
00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:58,319
be at westall at the schools or
elsewhere and not here or at least or

375
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:05,960
see aircraft flying above doing the circuits
and bumps training exercises that planes often do.

376
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,400
And the kids were very, very
used to seeing those planes, and

377
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:15,519
those planes were mostly training aircraft,
so aircraft like cestenas or piper chieftains,

378
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:22,240
maybe chipmunks, so that sort of
light aircraft. But what they saw this

379
00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:27,039
day was nothing like that, nothing
like that at all. And the kids

380
00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:31,839
observed the object or objects flying around, going from one side of the sky

381
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,119
to the other, moving so quickly
it was as if the kids the witnesses

382
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:43,920
couldn't quite tell was it blinking off, vanishing and then blinking on and reappearing

383
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,160
at the other end of their sky
the vista that they could see, or

384
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,519
was it just simply flying so quickly
from one side to the other that looked

385
00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:58,559
like it was doing that. It
ascended, descended, again no sound.

386
00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:06,079
It would make the range angular turns
that nobody could had ever associated with aircraft.

387
00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:13,719
And then at some point five actual
aircraft flew in, and most of

388
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:19,760
the witnesses who remember seeing these aeroplanes
remember them simply as being ordinary light aircraft,

389
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,239
like listeners. They might not have
been cestons, but there was something

390
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,960
like that aircraft that they were well
used to seeing. And these planes were

391
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:34,760
trying to chase these flying objects.
And the planes would get close to one

392
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,800
of the objects, and then the
UFO would move away effortlessly and go to

393
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,559
another part of the sky. The
plane would do the long banking turn that

394
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:46,440
planes need to do, making the
sound of the engines that planes need to

395
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:51,320
do, and try to get closer
to one of the objects again, and

396
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,320
then the object or objects would move
off again. And so this what was

397
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,960
described in the newspaper reports at the
time. It's like a cat mouse exercise.

398
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,599
Went on for several minutes. And
then at some point after this,

399
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:14,000
at least one of the objects went
down to an area called the Grange,

400
00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:19,360
which was an old rural property which
had an old house on it, but

401
00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:23,559
had a large area of land,
and on part of that land was a

402
00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:28,639
large grove of pine trees, and
the kids at the school just called that

403
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,360
area the pines. They knew it
well because they often went over there for

404
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,519
their cross country running, for their
excursions when they went looking for frogs,

405
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,840
and the local kids used it as
their local playground. And this object flew

406
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,880
down to that grove of pine trees
and was seen to disappear behind the trees,

407
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,199
and it sat behind those trees for
something like perhaps ten minutes, may

408
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,039
have been fifteen minutes, it's hard
to tell the exact time, but it

409
00:35:59,079 --> 00:36:02,559
was something of that nature, enough
time, in fact, to give a

410
00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:10,039
certain cohort of the kids time to
jump over the boundary fence, over a

411
00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:15,159
ditch a channel that was between the
fence and the unmade street road at the

412
00:36:15,159 --> 00:36:21,199
back of the school, over that
road, through the market gardens, down

413
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:28,079
a dirt track, down towards the
grange, chasing this quarry, chasing this

414
00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:32,119
object which they had been watching in
the sky high low, left, right,

415
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,440
fast, slow, and it came
down and they wanted to find it.

416
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,280
And it was an extraordinary thing in
a way, because we're talking about

417
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:47,679
school children in the nineteen sixties,
aged between about twelve and fifteen, who

418
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,079
knew about the worst thing you could
possibly do at school was to leave the

419
00:36:53,119 --> 00:37:00,519
school's grounds permission of a teacher or
your parents without a note, because it

420
00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:05,079
was dangerous, because you were crossing
a road, because you were going into

421
00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:08,599
the bush, because you didn't have
permission. But there was a group of

422
00:37:08,599 --> 00:37:12,400
them, and so I guess they
felt like they had a little bit of

423
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,800
support and a little bit of courage, and off they went, and a

424
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,519
certain group, a small group,
according some of the witnesses got there in

425
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:25,280
time down to the grange to see
one object, either sitting on the ground

426
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,360
or just perhaps a little bit above
the ground. And one of the witnesses

427
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,559
talking about getting down there and seeing
four kids, a couple of boys,

428
00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,039
a couple of girls, and the
boys were a little bit further back from

429
00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:42,480
the object, the girls were a
little bit closer, and the girls had

430
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:49,239
been affected somehow by the object.
One had fainted and was still on the

431
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,280
ground. One was sort of dusting
herself off and still getting up. And

432
00:37:55,119 --> 00:38:01,320
this witness then watched the object left
up from where we had been. It

433
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,639
went up into the sky a few
meters, turn into a vertical plane and

434
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:12,559
then shot off fast up into the
sky. Joining one or two others that

435
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:16,679
were still up there, and then
at great speed, the three objects flow

436
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:22,719
away again in that vertical plane,
flying off so quickly that hardly anybody could

437
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:30,280
notice where they had gone to.
So this was not your normal start to

438
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,480
the school day at Westall High School. Right right before we move on,

439
00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:39,639
let me just ask a couple of
things. So you just mentioned that they

440
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,639
just flew off with the three objects, but there's still confusion between some of

441
00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:51,199
the witnesses whether there was one object
or multiple objects, even though this thing

442
00:38:51,679 --> 00:38:57,519
flew off together with those other three. Well, Martin, it wouldn't be

443
00:38:57,559 --> 00:39:01,199
a flying source of story if there
wasn't confusion. No, you're right right.

444
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,440
If you have clarity, then it
can't be a UFO story, can't

445
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,440
be a finified flying source Insider.
That's true. That's true, and I

446
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,639
think we know that from some of
the other perhaps better known historical incidents from

447
00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:20,599
over the years, which we're all
still talking about after all of these years

448
00:39:20,599 --> 00:39:23,679
and trying to nut out the finer
details. But it's true. In a

449
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,920
sense, there's some confusion. It's
not really confusion, I guess from the

450
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,880
perspective of someone trying to understand it
like me as a researcher, it can

451
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,639
be a bit confusing, but in
the minds of the witnesses, there's not

452
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,960
much confusion, because you were either
a witness who remembered seeing one and one

453
00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:46,960
only, or you were a witness. And it's a smaller number that I've

454
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,360
been in contact with, And of
course there's lots of people who were witnesses

455
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,239
potentially that I've not yet been in
contact with, who saw two or three,

456
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,159
and so those people are either adamant
there were three, for example,

457
00:40:00,639 --> 00:40:07,199
or their adamant there was only one. And mostly those people are happy to

458
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,920
admit that they saw what they saw, but what they saw, of course

459
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:16,840
was conditioned by where they were standing, when they got to where they were

460
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:23,280
standing, what else was happening around
them, and of course the and of

461
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:30,800
course their memory and the frailty of
their memory, and so most people are

462
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,039
adamant about what they saw, but
they're happy to admit that there may have

463
00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:40,360
been other people who saw something slightly
different. The interesting element to that aspect

464
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:46,320
of the story is that there also
there were one hundred and sixty five people

465
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:52,760
I've been in contact with who remember
seeing the circles left behind in the paddock,

466
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:59,039
in the grassy field by whatever these
objects were, and so a larger

467
00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:02,519
number than saw the actual flying sources, which makes sense because there was more

468
00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:08,880
time for people to go down after
school, local residents and see these trace

469
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:15,559
marks what in fact had been left
behind apparently by these objects. And off

470
00:41:15,559 --> 00:41:20,079
that group of one hundred and sixty
five, there are twenty five who remember

471
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:24,679
seeing more than one circle. So
as a proportion, it's almost the same

472
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:30,079
percentage of people who remember seeing more
than one flying saucer as opposed to one

473
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:37,280
flying saucer. So there's certainly evidence
that there are certainly a group of witnesses

474
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:44,280
who remember seeing more than one trace
mark, more than one circle, which

475
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,719
would seem to indicate that perhaps there
was indeed more than one object involved.

476
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,000
It's hard to be definitive. Of
course, my job as the researcher is

477
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,639
to strive to be definitive. But
obviously I've got to hold all of these

478
00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:04,280
parts of the jigsaw puzzle together somehow, and to find as many of the

479
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:10,760
common denominators as I can, and
for those common elements to tell the thrust

480
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,199
of the story. Right. So, another thing you mentioned early on was

481
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:22,159
that there was no apparent rivets porthole
seems anything like that. So that seems

482
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:28,719
to indicate that it was seen rather
closely. Would you be able to tell

483
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:36,039
us what is the guess of the
closest that someone was able to view the

484
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,760
object? Sure? Sure, Obviously
measurements are a tricky thing, and particularly

485
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,400
after the passage of all this time. But there are several witnesses remember being

486
00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:52,039
very close to the object. Is
one witness who features in the documentary Westill

487
00:42:52,119 --> 00:42:57,679
sixty six, who was the one
sole person that we know of that I've

488
00:42:57,679 --> 00:43:00,199
been in contact with. He says
there were a couple of other boys who

489
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:05,719
did what he did, which was
jumped the western boundary fence where there was

490
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:10,840
a massive kids and at least one
teacher viewing the object. He says there

491
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:17,519
were two objects at that point landed
or almost landed in the paddock next to

492
00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:22,079
the school. He remembers there being
a bit of a space between the bottom

493
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:28,039
of these two flying sources and the
grass, and he got so close.

494
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,599
This witness his name as Victor.
By the way, Victor got so close

495
00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:36,679
to one of the objects that he
could feel heat coming off it and put

496
00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:42,360
his hand up towards it. To
touch it, but thought about a thought

497
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,679
not to do that, had second
thoughts about doing that because he could feel

498
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,320
the heat coming off, and so
he back, and so he took his

499
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,400
hand. Probably a smart move,
that's right, if he was to do

500
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,880
it now. He said to me
the other day that he'd probably put his

501
00:43:54,920 --> 00:44:00,920
hand on and hang on for dear
life, and probably not on the outside.

502
00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:05,360
But he didn't do that. He
was at that point, what thirteen

503
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,519
years old, I think, And
so he took his hand back, and

504
00:44:08,519 --> 00:44:13,840
then he took a few steps back
and walked back towards the fence, and

505
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,920
as he did, one of the
objects lifted up and flew down towards the

506
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,360
grange. The other object, he
said, flew up and didn't go down

507
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,760
to the grange, but went up
into the sky and went high in the

508
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,800
sky and stayed there. So he
was very close. Another witness a lady

509
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:36,320
by the name of Terry. She
was the witness one of the students who

510
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,960
had gone down to the grange and
saw the four kids in front of her

511
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:45,880
between her and the flying saucer,
and saw the two girls affected by the

512
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,119
flying saucer fainted in the ground on
the ground, and she estimates that she

513
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:57,599
was probably within about five meters maybe
ten meters off the flying saucer, again,

514
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,440
close enough to be able to get
up view of it, so much

515
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:06,639
so that when it lifted up and
before it turned into the perpendicular the vertical

516
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:13,320
axis, she could see what appeared
to be bluish purplish colored lights on the

517
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:20,239
bottom, rotating in a fashion pulsating
as it lifted up. There were other

518
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,880
witnesses who were on the sports ground
at the time before the Flying sourceer went

519
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:29,280
down to the grange who they felt
they were so close to the object,

520
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:32,760
they felt as though it was coming
down in front of them, and they

521
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,519
were so petrified, thinking that the
object was actually going to crash or going

522
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:43,280
to land on the sports ground in
front of them. And there were a

523
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:49,480
set of goal posts Australian rules football
goal posts on the sports ground, so

524
00:45:49,559 --> 00:45:54,119
you can imagine some goal posts,
and a couple of the witnesses referred to

525
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:59,360
the Flying Source of being almost at
the top of those goal posts. So

526
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,639
we're only talking there about what would
that be maybe ten meters or so above

527
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,639
the ground where they were standing.
And some of the kids watching this happen,

528
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:15,519
we're afraid they were petrified. One
of the girls talks about wedding her

529
00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:22,360
pants, being so scared, being
so taken aback about what was happening in

530
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,480
front of her, wedding her pants, rushing off to the toilets, taking

531
00:46:25,639 --> 00:46:31,000
refuge, taking cover from what she
thought was about to happen on the sports

532
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:37,280
ground. And so some of these
witnesses were pretty close. So it was

533
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:44,840
this like a group trauma. I
mean, was everyone or were some people

534
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,039
fascinating in and some were traumatized.
And I don't want to talk about Tanya,

535
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:52,440
I believe it is too but but
is that what was happening. Was

536
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,519
it a mixture or was it everyone
was scared? No, I don't think

537
00:46:57,519 --> 00:46:59,760
everybody was scared at all. It
was certainly was a mixture. So it

538
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:05,440
was very dependent upon I think where
people were when they were there, and

539
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:10,000
of course most importantly I imagine how
they were as people, their personalities,

540
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:15,880
their demeanors, and so a lot
of the witnesses, most of the witnesses

541
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:22,519
talk to me about the finding extremely
exciting. It was exciting. It was

542
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,840
something that they remember very very fondly. They remember it as being the most

543
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:34,559
incredible thing that's happened to them in
their lives as a memory, it's the

544
00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:40,360
strongest memory that they ever have,
probably up there with having children. But

545
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,480
there are certainly some witnesses who have
talked to me about it being traumatic,

546
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:50,119
that it was scary, it was
frightening, that was worrying for them.

547
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,639
And I guess one wonders how many
of that particular cohort, that subset of

548
00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:00,960
witnesses perhaps have decided not to talk
to me, or to come forward or

549
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:06,760
to talk talk to other people because
for them it was that sort of experience

550
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:13,320
for whatever reason. And it's perhaps
the students, the children, and perhaps

551
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:20,079
the older adults for whom it was
more of an exciting incident who have decided

552
00:48:20,119 --> 00:48:24,559
to talk more about it and to
be more open about it. And what's

553
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:30,440
a scoop with what happened with Tanya? So there is a student who was

554
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:36,840
at the school by the name of
Tanya, and there are several witnesses who

555
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:42,920
remember her as being somehow connected with
the flying incident. So some of the

556
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:49,320
people remember that she was the girl
who ran into the science classroom being taught

557
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,840
by Andrew Greenwood and sliding the door
back and shouting out there are flying sauces.

558
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:58,360
In the sky flying sauces in the
sky, and some people are very

559
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,039
clear that it was her. Other
people are not so clear and just remember

560
00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:06,599
it being a female student or a
student. But for those who remember it

561
00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:10,760
being a specific student, they do
usually name it as this girl Tanya,

562
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:16,920
and one of the other witnesses remembers
very clearly Tanya being one of the students

563
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:22,199
who raced down towards the grange in
chase of the flying saucer, and this

564
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:29,880
witness, a lady called Jacqueline,
raced after her and also tried to race

565
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,400
down to the grange, but Tanya
apparently was a very fast runner, faster

566
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:39,320
than Jacqueline, and about halfway down
towards the grange, Jacqueline noticed Tanya coming

567
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:45,880
back in the opposite direction, back
towards the school property, screaming hysterical,

568
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:51,119
and Jacqueline tried to grab her and
hold her and ask her what was going

569
00:49:51,159 --> 00:49:55,639
on, but she was too upset. She was too she was too hysterical,

570
00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:01,719
She was frightened by something and broke
her grip and raced back towards the

571
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:06,119
school. So Jacqueline at that point
decided not to go any further and to

572
00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:09,239
turn around him and to go back
towards the school, and when they got

573
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:14,280
back to school, Jacqueline remembers,
she's not absolutely sure about the passage of

574
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:19,079
time, but she remembers not very
long afterwards, an ambulance being at the

575
00:50:19,119 --> 00:50:24,159
school, Tanya being attended to by
the ambulance officers, and Tanya being taken

576
00:50:24,199 --> 00:50:30,159
away in the ambulance. And there
are a couple of other witnesses who have

577
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:37,159
that same visual memory, and there
are some other witnesses who heard that that

578
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:43,320
was the case. And one of
the witnesses, Terry, who I mentioned

579
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:49,679
before, thinks it was Tanya who
was down at the grange fainted on the

580
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,880
ground, having been affected by what
she had seen close range to the flying

581
00:50:52,880 --> 00:51:00,400
saucer. So that's Tanya's story,
and the other aspect of Tanya stories that

582
00:51:00,679 --> 00:51:05,719
two of the witnesses, Jacqueline and
Terry, who were both friends with Tanya,

583
00:51:06,039 --> 00:51:08,000
separately went around to Tanya's house.
They knew where she lived, they'd

584
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,360
been to her house before. Her
house wasn't very far from the school,

585
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:20,000
and knocked d'antanya's door to see how
she was. Natanya wasn't there, her

586
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:23,280
family wasn't there, and in fact, a stranger that neither of these girls

587
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:29,079
had ever met before hand to the
door and told them that Tanya wasn't there,

588
00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:30,480
had never lived there, There was
no one there by that name.

589
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:36,679
But both kids had been to that
house before. Wow, you never heard

590
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,440
that part of it. Yeah,
yeah, So they knew that that was

591
00:51:40,519 --> 00:51:45,400
Tanya's house, They knew that Tanya's
family lived there, and yet there was

592
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:50,039
this strange lady at the door saying
sorry, no one here by that name.

593
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:57,599
And neither Jacqueline R. Terry ever
saw Tanya again. She didn't return

594
00:51:58,159 --> 00:52:01,880
to the school and it wasn't until
years later apparently that some of the other

595
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:07,360
kids as young adults, met up
with her later, but she was not

596
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:15,960
seen at the school again. Now
Tanya's being hard to find, it's possible

597
00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:23,039
that a lady with her name has
been found. Rosie Jones, the filmmaker

598
00:52:23,079 --> 00:52:28,559
for Westall sixty six, believe she
has been in contact with her, but

599
00:52:29,199 --> 00:52:32,920
Tanya doesn't really want to talk about
the story. She confirms that she was

600
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:37,719
there at Westall High School, that
she remembers the Flying Sorcerer incident, but

601
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:44,880
not other aspects of the story,
and Rosie, as a professional filmmaker,

602
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:50,360
of course, has agreed to protect
this lady's privacy and to honor her her

603
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:55,039
request not to be involved anymore or
to be interviewed, and so that's where

604
00:52:55,079 --> 00:52:59,800
that aspect of the story currently sits. Wow, wasn't that amusing? So

605
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,400
I was not also aware that they
found her as well. All right,

606
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,440
well we're at our real break at
the fifty five, so we're going to

607
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:13,039
go into the break, So hanging
everyone. We'll be right back right after

608
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:19,400
these messages. All right, welcome
back. This is Martin Willis and my

609
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:25,519
guest is Shane Ryan. We're talking
about the Westall UFO and a very interesting

610
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:30,519
case, and we're also going to
be talking a little bit later on about

611
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:36,440
other UFO cases in Australia. There's
a lot going on, there has been,

612
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:42,960
and actually I've talked about this before, but Australia is my third largest

613
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,800
listening base, and that's really saying
something of a country with twenty six million

614
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:53,920
compared to other major countries, so
a lot of listeners in Australia, and

615
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,199
I have to figure out a way
to get there. I've always wanted to

616
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,400
go to Australia, so one of
these days I'm going to have to figure

617
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:07,760
out a reason to be there,
I suggest Quantas Martin Quantas. Okay,

618
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:13,159
So we were talking about Tanya.
I don't know her last name. I

619
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,760
don't know if I've seen her last
name anywhere. But did she ever give

620
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:23,920
a reason for why she vanished and
never came back to school and that whole

621
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:29,960
thing? Did she ever give any
part of that detail? So, unfortunately,

622
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:36,000
there's nothing publicly available in relation to
the rest of Tanya's story, And

623
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:43,280
as I mentioned, Rosie Jones has
agreed to honor her desire for privacy,

624
00:54:44,159 --> 00:54:49,039
and so we simply don't know really
much more about her story. It would

625
00:54:49,039 --> 00:54:53,760
be nice to know some more for
me. Obviously, it's an interesting element

626
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,920
to the story and people do latch
onto it, and that's understandable. But

627
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:05,480
from a recent which is perspective,
because it's being very difficult to confirm many

628
00:55:05,519 --> 00:55:09,039
of those elements that other people have
talked about in relation to her, it's

629
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:13,880
hard for me to take it any
further. And I guess for me as

630
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,199
well as the research, because I
have so many other witness accounts on my

631
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,119
books, there's lots of other things
for me to delve into and to talk

632
00:55:22,159 --> 00:55:25,960
about, and there are some things
so I haven't yet mentioned, of course,

633
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,920
and so it's an interesting element to
the story, no doubt about it.

634
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:35,320
But I have to put it into
the context of all the other elements,

635
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:40,760
and particularly if it's difficult for me
to drive that research avenue any further,

636
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,760
then there's not really much I can
do. It's as any UFO researcher

637
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,039
will know. You can take a
horse to water, but you can't make

638
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:53,880
a drink, and we have to
accept the frustrations and the limitations. We

639
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:59,039
can research what we can research.
We can only go on the amount of

640
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:04,800
information that people are prepared to give
us and do the best we can with

641
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:09,679
what we are given. Right now, the aftermath of this case is almost

642
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:15,800
just as interesting as the case itself, So why don't we go into that

643
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:21,159
aspect of it. That's true,
So the aftermath is as interesting as the

644
00:56:21,199 --> 00:56:25,280
actual incident itself because and I always
talk about this as a Flying Sorcerer incident.

645
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:30,360
I talk about that because it's nostalgic, because that's the terminology the vocabulary

646
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:35,360
of the nineteen sixties, and some
people, of course don't like using that

647
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,360
terminology because it's loaded and carries baggage
and all of that is true, but

648
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,199
I stick with it because I love
the nostalgia of it, and because that

649
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,360
was the terminology that was used by
a lot of the witnesses at the time

650
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:51,719
when they saw this object, these
objects, that's how they describe them.

651
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,920
Of course, it doesn't tell us
very much about where they were from,

652
00:56:55,199 --> 00:57:00,199
why they were there, how they
were being flown, who was inside,

653
00:57:00,559 --> 00:57:05,000
what was inside, if anybody,
if anything, and all of that remains

654
00:57:05,039 --> 00:57:07,840
mysterious, and of course that's something
we all want to know. I mean,

655
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:12,480
that's another the mystery, of course, and I want to know all

656
00:57:12,519 --> 00:57:17,360
of those things as much as anybody. But another aspect to my research,

657
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,199
and I guess it was the aspect
I thought I would be able to be

658
00:57:21,239 --> 00:57:25,639
more successful with because the other stuff
is a little bit harder to the soul

659
00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:32,440
is to work out who responded to
this incident, Why did they respond to

660
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,239
it, Why did they respond to
it in the way that they did,

661
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:44,440
Why was there a secrecy, a
veil of secrecy it seems, lowered over

662
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:49,679
this whole story, And why were
so many people given the message, either

663
00:57:50,559 --> 00:57:55,840
overtly or covertly, that this was
a story, a happening that wasn't to

664
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:01,920
be admitted to that wasn't to be
talked about. And of course it's from

665
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,800
talking to so many of the witnesses
over the years that have been able to

666
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,400
put the pieces together that there was
such a large response. The police responded,

667
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,920
the Royal Australian Air Force responded.
It seems that elements of the Australian

668
00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:23,559
Army were involved, The Civil Defense
Organization responded. Two separate fire brigades from

669
00:58:23,559 --> 00:58:30,360
separate fire departments were involved, The
Ambulance Service was involved at least for one

670
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:37,760
student, and there were possibly other
elements of the Australian and Victorian state governments

671
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:43,519
that were involved as well, and
at a seemingly very high level, all

672
00:58:43,599 --> 00:58:49,920
for something that was written off at
the time as being probably a meteorological balloon

673
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:54,000
that had been blown a little bit
off course and had been cited by some

674
00:58:54,320 --> 00:59:00,800
excitable children at a couple of the
schools in the fringes of it. But

675
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,719
it wasn't about that at all.
It was something else. And so it

676
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:10,599
was that response and the cover up
and me trying to work out what those

677
00:59:10,639 --> 00:59:16,280
people who responded to this incident found, what they discovered, what they wrote

678
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:21,679
up into their reports, what went
into the archives. What was all that

679
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,480
about, and why couldn't it have
been divulged at the time, Why couldn't

680
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,800
it have been shared with the media. Why I couldn't have been shared with

681
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,599
the people who were invold, who
were there on the ground, And why

682
00:59:32,639 --> 00:59:37,760
after all of these years, more
than fifty years has passed, fifty four

683
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:45,199
years, is there still not a
scarrick of paperwork in any of the publicly

684
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:52,239
accessible archives government archives about this story. And I, over the years,

685
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:58,679
as you would imagine, filed quite
a few Freedom of Information applications, requests

686
00:59:58,679 --> 01:00:02,639
for information. I've got some of
the paperwork here, but to the National

687
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:12,599
Archives of Australia, to the Australian
Department of Defense, to the Victoria Police,

688
01:00:13,519 --> 01:00:19,639
to the Victorian Department of Education,
the department responsible for running the schools,

689
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:23,199
and all of those responses from these
people and from others have come back

690
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:29,880
saying either we've looked, we've searched
through all our available records and there's nothing

691
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:36,599
there, or because it's so old, we don't have to or because it's

692
01:00:36,639 --> 01:00:42,199
so old, any archival material that
we may have collected has, under the

693
01:00:42,239 --> 01:00:46,679
requirements of federal legislation, gone to
the National Archives of Australia, and the

694
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:52,960
National Archives of Australia have already told
me they have nothing. Wow, so

695
01:00:52,960 --> 01:01:00,079
there's this problem. We know something
happened, we know there were people on

696
01:01:00,119 --> 01:01:07,000
the ground there in uniform and in
civilian clothes, and yet not a single

697
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:15,800
piece of documentation apparently exists two to
explain that. And so that's the other

698
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:20,159
aspect. That's what's so mysterious about
this because even with cases, better known

699
01:01:20,199 --> 01:01:23,920
cases perhaps that people have been looking
at over the years, like Rosswell or

700
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:32,519
Randall Sham, there's documentation, there's
information. But for Westall, I guess

701
01:01:32,519 --> 01:01:37,280
a little bit like in a way
another incident which happened around the same time

702
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:45,679
in Pennsylvania, the Kecksburg incident.
You'll remember that something obviously happened. The

703
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:49,159
police were there, the fire department
was there, the Army turned up,

704
01:01:49,719 --> 01:01:53,800
there was some media there, and
yet there's nothing to be found in the

705
01:01:54,159 --> 01:02:00,280
government archives about that story. I
but so it's a little bit akin that

706
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,920
sort of incident. And when you
actually make contact with some of the people

707
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,400
who were there in uniform, their
responses are very very interesting. And there

708
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:13,960
haven't been many that I've made contact
with. There have been a couple of

709
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:20,079
firemen who remember it clearly, who
remember responding, and there is baffled by

710
01:02:20,119 --> 01:02:22,960
anybody as to what it was and
what they saw that day, but it

711
01:02:23,039 --> 01:02:30,400
certainly happened. They were there.
But there's one surviving police officer who was

712
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:37,039
there that day. It took him
many years to admit it. He always

713
01:02:37,119 --> 01:02:43,639
denied it. But about two or
three years ago, a journalist who I

714
01:02:43,719 --> 01:02:46,840
had arranged to contact him. He
still lives in the house by the way

715
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:52,960
that he lived in back in nineteen
sixty six. He's still there. He's

716
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,360
a man now, I believe in
his eighties. He's not very well,

717
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:59,719
but he finally admitted in a telephone
call with this journalist that he'd been there,

718
01:02:59,719 --> 01:03:02,000
that yes, he was part of
the Victoria police response, but he

719
01:03:02,039 --> 01:03:07,440
wasn't prepared to talk about it.
And one of the high school witnesses is

720
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:12,880
actually a family friend of this man. This witness her parents were a friend

721
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:17,760
with this police officer, and when
this witness's father passed away, this former

722
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:24,000
police officer was at her dad's funeral
and she had been trying for years to

723
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:29,840
talk to this man Jack about what
he had seen that day and why the

724
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:34,360
police were there. What were they
doing? What did they see? And

725
01:03:34,599 --> 01:03:37,159
she went up to Jack at the
end of the funeral and she said to

726
01:03:37,239 --> 01:03:42,800
Jack, Jack, would you please
just tell me what happened at Westall that

727
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,800
day? What was it that we
all saw? And he said to her,

728
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,480
her name is Sue, He said, Sue. And if I tell

729
01:03:49,559 --> 01:03:52,079
you, what will you do with
the information. And Sue said, Jack,

730
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,400
it's just for me. I need
to know. It's for my own

731
01:03:55,440 --> 01:04:00,400
sanity. I need to know.
I know you know something. Please tell

732
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,159
me. I won't tell anybody.
And Jack looked at her and said,

733
01:04:03,159 --> 01:04:10,360
Sue, I don't believe you.
He wouldn't spill the beans. And this

734
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,599
was at this poor lady's dad's funeral, father's funeral, as I said,

735
01:04:14,679 --> 01:04:18,239
but dad's funeral, so very emotional
time for her. But she felt it

736
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:23,360
was a time to bring it up
with him. And I tried talking to

737
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:29,159
him on the telephone. And so, whatever it was, whatever was said

738
01:04:29,199 --> 01:04:33,559
to him, as a young police
officer, probably who was on the periphery

739
01:04:33,599 --> 01:04:39,199
of the event, in a way, he still feels the need to keep

740
01:04:39,239 --> 01:04:48,800
silent. That's amazing. And what
about the sailance sailancing of the media,

741
01:04:49,679 --> 01:04:56,840
did that happen as well. It
looks as though it did happen because Melbourne

742
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,480
had several daily newspapers at a time, and one was a broadsheet newspaper,

743
01:05:00,519 --> 01:05:04,320
the Age, which I mentioned earlier, and it carried a very small article

744
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:10,519
the next day documenting that there'd been
a flying source of citing at a school

745
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:15,239
in Westall and that it may have
been explained by a meteorological balloon flying over.

746
01:05:15,719 --> 01:05:19,159
And that was the extent of the
article, seen by hundreds of students

747
01:05:19,159 --> 01:05:26,400
and teachers, but it was probably
perhaps a meteorological balloon. There were three

748
01:05:28,559 --> 01:05:31,599
not broadsheet newspapers. But what's the
opposite of broadsheet, you know what I

749
01:05:31,639 --> 01:05:41,599
mean? Less serious newspapers, not
broadsheet newspapers, newspapers that perhaps had a

750
01:05:41,639 --> 01:05:46,440
bigger following in terms of readership,
And a couple of those newspapers in particular

751
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:53,280
were known for carrying stories about UFO
incidents, about flying sources, and of

752
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:58,679
course there were such stories in those
years in the nineteen sixties. None of

753
01:05:58,719 --> 01:06:04,199
those newspapers carried a single sentence about
this incident. So it seems as though

754
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:11,320
somebody perhaps made a phone call to
what to the editors of these newspapers and

755
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:16,519
said for national security, this is
a story not to be reported, or

756
01:06:16,519 --> 01:06:19,320
if it is to be reported,
in the way the Age did, in

757
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:25,559
that very truncated way, and with
an explanation, a possible explanation given for

758
01:06:25,719 --> 01:06:30,559
what it was that everybody saw.
And a few days after the incident,

759
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:39,880
one of those broad shit, one
of those newspapers carried a cartoon lampooning UFOs

760
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:46,880
and people seeing UFOs. But fascinatingly, on the very day after the Westall

761
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:51,480
incident, and this is perhaps it
might be just a coincidence or an example

762
01:06:51,519 --> 01:06:56,079
of Australian humor, I don't know, but it was actually sorry in the

763
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,880
afternoon newspaper that day, the sixth
of vapers are the same day as the

764
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,480
incident happened. In one of those
newspapers called the Herald, there was this

765
01:07:03,559 --> 01:07:11,199
wonderful article, an advertisement really about
how the defense of Australia is in very

766
01:07:11,239 --> 01:07:16,039
good hands, the Royal Australian Air
Force, Australia's aerial defense is in their

767
01:07:16,079 --> 01:07:21,440
hands. And it's an ad about
the various ways in which the Royal Australian

768
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:29,519
Air Force is keeping Australia's air safe
and defended from threats, and there's radar,

769
01:07:29,639 --> 01:07:32,400
and there's the jets, and there's
the surface to air missiles. And

770
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:38,079
this happens on the very same day
as the rest of incidents. So a

771
01:07:38,199 --> 01:07:44,199
wonderful coincidence. Yeah, yeah,
that is interesting. Now, wasn't there

772
01:07:45,239 --> 01:07:48,000
I remember when we talked before.
Wasn't there a teacher that took a bunch

773
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:54,159
of photographs of the flying sericer or
one of them? And what was the

774
01:07:54,239 --> 01:08:00,280
deal with that? So there are
several witnesses who recall that one teacher took

775
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,480
photographs, and some of the kids
remember that it was the female science teacher,

776
01:08:04,159 --> 01:08:08,960
Miss Robbins. Others remember that it
was the male science teacher, mister

777
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:13,480
Greenwood. And I've been in contact
with Andrew Greenwood over the years and have

778
01:08:13,519 --> 01:08:16,680
had a face to face meeting with
him, and he says it definitely wasn't

779
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,640
him. He didn't take photographs,
so it doesn't look as though it was

780
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:25,479
him. The other teacher. She's
still alive, but she's very unwell.

781
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,840
Unfortunately, and Rosie Jones was able
to have a chat with her several years

782
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,159
ago, and because of her illness, even though she was able to confirm

783
01:08:33,239 --> 01:08:38,880
that she was at Westall as a
teacher and she remembered something about a kafuffle

784
01:08:39,199 --> 01:08:44,800
involving flying sources. She didn't have
any more memories than that, so she

785
01:08:45,199 --> 01:08:47,920
and her son, who were able
to be in contact with simply weren't able

786
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:51,640
to confirm that aspect of the story. But the witnesses who remember it,

787
01:08:53,119 --> 01:08:58,640
they remember that a teacher took photographs
using the school's camera. There was only

788
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:00,960
one camera back in those days.
The school had a single camera. It

789
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,880
was the school camera. Nobody else
had cameras, and of course kids didn't

790
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:10,199
have access to cameras in those days. And she took photos, or someone

791
01:09:10,239 --> 01:09:15,119
took photos. And when the Royal
Australian Air Force officers came to the school,

792
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:19,359
which they did, they came to
the school apparently that day, some

793
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:25,600
say the following day, And some
witnesses have memories of the camera and the

794
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:30,119
film inside the whole thing being handed
over to these Air Force officers, and

795
01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:35,039
of course the film the camera perhaps
never seen again. Wow. Wow.

796
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:44,319
And what about the more or less
the silencing of everyone was there? I

797
01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:47,039
don't want to say threats, but
there were there a sort of like stern

798
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:53,680
well, maybe threats is the right
word, not to talk about this.

799
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,920
That's right. Some people talk about
that. A lot of the witnesses talk

800
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:04,199
about there being this assem. That
afternoon an assembly organized by the headmaster,

801
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:11,880
mister Samblebee, and it was held
in the quadrangle that afternoon, and everybody

802
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:16,199
was told that they hadn't seen flying
sources. There are no such things as

803
01:10:16,279 --> 01:10:20,880
flying sources, and they weren't to
talk about it, and they certainly want

804
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:25,560
to talk to the media, because
the media had started gathering out the front

805
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:31,159
of the school, and several students
had in fact already tried started giving TV

806
01:10:31,319 --> 01:10:38,239
interviews and those interviews were very quickly
abruptly interrupted. One of the students,

807
01:10:38,359 --> 01:10:43,119
Joy very clearly remembers. She remembers
it in a very tactile way, talking

808
01:10:43,159 --> 01:10:47,159
to the Channel nine interviewer, the
camera operator there and this man in a

809
01:10:47,159 --> 01:10:51,720
blue uniform she'd never seen before.
She remembers him as being a police officer

810
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:56,880
or perhaps an Air Force officer because
of the blue uniform, coming up,

811
01:10:57,079 --> 01:11:00,960
putting his hand on her shoulder and
saying this interviews over, you're not to

812
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,840
talk about this, get back into
school. He then turns around, talked

813
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:09,000
and to the media people says get
out of here. This interview is over

814
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:13,880
and that was it. She goes
back into school. She gets given detention

815
01:11:14,319 --> 01:11:17,760
as one or two of the other
students were also given detention who had tried

816
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:21,000
to speak to the media. One
of the students gave an interview with the

817
01:11:21,039 --> 01:11:27,039
local newspaper, the Dandynong Journal.
The Dandylong Journal newspaper was the one that

818
01:11:27,159 --> 01:11:31,479
broke the story at the time,
and so it was front page news for

819
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:36,560
a couple of weeks running in this
local newspaper, and thankfulness this newspaper still

820
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:42,159
exists today and we have access to
their archives. She gave an interview,

821
01:11:42,399 --> 01:11:46,319
as did Andrew Greenwood with the newspaper, and she got detention as a student.

822
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:54,000
And Andrew Greenwood was definitely wrapped over
the knuckles by his headmaster. And

823
01:11:54,079 --> 01:11:58,600
for Andrew Greenwood that was a bit
upsetting as a news student, a teacher

824
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:03,199
rather a relatively young teacher. But
more upsetting for him was when about three

825
01:12:03,279 --> 01:12:06,680
days later he had the knock on
the door at home. He answered the

826
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,920
door. This was after we'd come
home from work, and there were two

827
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:15,119
people, one in an Air Force
officers uniform, one in civilian clothes,

828
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:19,600
and they wanted to talk to him, and he thought, well, that's

829
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:25,119
interesting. They're wanting to talk to
me about the UFO to take down details

830
01:12:25,119 --> 01:12:28,800
of what I'd seen. And his
mother was home at the time, and

831
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:32,439
she sat in a separate room,
and he sat down with the two government

832
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:36,840
people. They weren't interested in what
he'd seen. They didn't want to know

833
01:12:38,039 --> 01:12:41,640
any details, and in fact,
they said to him, we want you

834
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,640
to be quiet about this. There
are no such things as flying sources,

835
01:12:45,359 --> 01:12:48,560
and we don't want you saying that
you saw one. And he remembers saying

836
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:51,119
to the f force officers, or
hang on a minute, If there are

837
01:12:51,159 --> 01:12:55,800
no such things as flying sources,
why does it matter if I say that

838
01:12:55,880 --> 01:13:00,279
I saw a flying sourcer? Interest
to you? And why are you at

839
01:13:00,319 --> 01:13:06,319
my house? And the tone turned
rather negative after that, apparently, and

840
01:13:06,359 --> 01:13:11,640
they said to him, mister Greenwood, if you talk again about this like

841
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:15,279
you have done with the local newspaper, we'll make sure you don't teach in

842
01:13:15,279 --> 01:13:21,159
this state again. We'll tell the
newspapers that you're not coping as a new

843
01:13:21,199 --> 01:13:26,119
teacher, that you're taking alcohol in
the morning with your breakfast cereal, and

844
01:13:26,199 --> 01:13:32,119
you'll never teach again. Unreal unbelievable. Were there more? Were there more

845
01:13:32,159 --> 01:13:36,079
threats like that or a similar to
that. I mean, you said there

846
01:13:36,159 --> 01:13:43,960
was the assembly and at that point
they were told not to talk about it.

847
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:47,079
But I mean, how can you
stop kids from talking about it,

848
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:50,279
you know, to their parents and
and things like that. I mean,

849
01:13:50,399 --> 01:13:55,840
that's just going to happen, you
know, I mean, they can't really

850
01:13:55,840 --> 01:14:00,239
stop. You know, they must
have known they couldn't stop that. I

851
01:14:00,279 --> 01:14:04,560
think that's true. I think if
you put yourselves into the shoes of the

852
01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:10,840
school principle, the administrators, it
was a reasonable thing in a way what

853
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:15,199
they did, because they were trying
to obviously not just protect the reputation of

854
01:14:15,279 --> 01:14:18,760
the school, but they were very
much I think trying to protect the reputation

855
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:23,800
the well being of the students because
they could see, I think that this

856
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:28,359
could very easily get out of hand, that there'd be more media, that

857
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:34,319
the school could get overrun with onlookers, sightseers. And this was the second

858
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:40,119
last day of the school term.
The next day, very conveniently for the

859
01:14:40,119 --> 01:14:45,119
school and for the story going Underground, was the last day of school term.

860
01:14:45,199 --> 01:14:48,000
It was the last day before the
Easter school holidays, and so there

861
01:14:48,039 --> 01:14:53,319
was a two week break then,
and so the school really only had to

862
01:14:53,319 --> 01:14:58,640
survive another twenty four hours or so
before everybody went away for at least two

863
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:03,520
weeks. The story did die down
and people did move on with their lives,

864
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:06,439
but there were a whole lot of
people, of course, who never

865
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:11,199
forgot what they had seen. But
yes, there were some other people who

866
01:15:11,199 --> 01:15:14,479
were called into the headmaster's office,
and one of those students, Jacqueline,

867
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:19,560
talks about the memory of being grilled
by these two people in dark suits with

868
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:24,199
short cropped hair, or nearly everybody
had short cropped hair in those days,

869
01:15:24,199 --> 01:15:28,560
but short cropped hair, looking very
serious as if they were from the government,

870
01:15:29,039 --> 01:15:32,479
and they were grilling her about you. They were saying, do you

871
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:36,039
really want us to believe that you
saw little green men? Do you really

872
01:15:36,079 --> 01:15:41,159
want us to believe that you saw
aliens? And she was saying, no,

873
01:15:41,159 --> 01:15:44,720
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I saw this object.

874
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:47,319
I'm not saying I saw this I
saw this object. I saw it

875
01:15:47,399 --> 01:15:51,880
close. It had this effect on
my school friends. It was oval shaped,

876
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:56,039
it was it made no noise,
It flew like I've never seen any

877
01:15:56,359 --> 01:16:00,560
other object fly. And she got
so upset, not just with their questions

878
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:04,039
and the pressure they were putting on
her as a fourteen year old girl,

879
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:10,520
but she was upset with her head
master who was in the office with her

880
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:15,279
with them and him not coming to
her. Aid, I see him not

881
01:16:15,399 --> 01:16:19,039
defending her, and so she ran
out of the office crying, and she

882
01:16:19,119 --> 01:16:23,800
ran home. Her home wasn't very
far away. She ran home balling her

883
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:29,560
eyes out because of this experience that
she'd had with these men. Wow,

884
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:34,520
that's amazing. So you've mentioned that
you still basically are you still working in

885
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:40,119
this case. I mean you still, like even now talking to witnesses.

886
01:16:42,279 --> 01:16:45,520
So I'm still working this case,
Martin. Somebody's going to do the dirty

887
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,680
work, and that's me at the
moment, has been for the last fourteen

888
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:51,279
years. And some other researchers have
looked at the case, of course long

889
01:16:51,319 --> 01:16:55,640
before I came along, and there
are other people still interested in it,

890
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:59,960
obviously, but I'm very actively working
the case. We've had some very interest

891
01:17:00,399 --> 01:17:06,560
leads relatively recently, for example,
and the leads are both promising and incredibly

892
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:15,520
excruciatingly frustrating, As is often the
case with UFO story leads. A gentleman

893
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:21,800
has come forward the grandson of a
man who he says was at Westall that

894
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:29,600
day working for a federal government department
called the Department of Supply. And this

895
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:35,279
man also had the job to be
the personal protection officer and driver for the

896
01:17:35,279 --> 01:17:40,800
then Prime Minister of Australia, and
whenever the Prime Minister of Australia was in

897
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:44,720
Melbourne, so not here in Camber, but in Melbourne, he would be

898
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:48,840
the driver and security man for this
prime minister. His name was Harold Holt.

899
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:57,800
And this man has come forward saying
that his grandfather told him out of

900
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:03,279
the blue one day about the Westall
UFO case and how he was there,

901
01:18:04,119 --> 01:18:09,319
and how it was about time the
truth came out about it, for the

902
01:18:09,319 --> 01:18:12,399
sake of everybody, for all of
the witnesses, that the truth be known

903
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,800
about what happened at Westall. And
this man talked to his mother and to

904
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:23,039
aunt, the daughters of this grandfather, and they refused to talk to him

905
01:18:24,239 --> 01:18:28,920
about what happened about what they heard
from their father, what he saw that

906
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,520
day at Westall, what his involvement
was. All they have been prepared to

907
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:36,560
say to him is that he was
never the same again. His demeanor changed

908
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:44,000
after Westall, and so unfortunately that
the man, the grandfather, has long

909
01:18:44,039 --> 01:18:48,720
since passed away. But the man
was given some diaries by his grandfather,

910
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:54,159
and in his diaries he remembers reading
an account of going out to Westall,

911
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:59,199
who was there, what he saw? And unfortunately, of course, in

912
01:18:59,319 --> 01:19:04,800
true faux story style, those diaries
have now gone missing and they can't yet

913
01:19:05,239 --> 01:19:11,680
haven't yet been found. But hopefully
this man, going through his grandfather's papers

914
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:16,680
and other information, and hopefully talking
again with his mother and his arts,

915
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:21,399
will be able to give us some
more information about what his grandfather's involvement was.

916
01:19:23,319 --> 01:19:30,039
Another witness in a way has come
forward recently, posting on Facebook saying

917
01:19:30,039 --> 01:19:33,880
that he knows the pilots that were
in the airplanes that day, that they

918
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:39,000
came from Arabin Airport, the nearby
airport, and he knows one of the

919
01:19:39,239 --> 01:19:45,600
pilots in particular who gave chase to
the flying saucer and tried to follow it

920
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:49,800
but couldn't because it flew so fast
he just left him behind, but he

921
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:55,479
tried to follow it, And that
this pilot is still alive. Of course,

922
01:19:55,479 --> 01:20:00,279
he's elderly, he's living in a
nursing home, is unwell. In

923
01:20:00,359 --> 01:20:03,600
far north Queensland, a long way
from where I am. But this man

924
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:12,760
so far, even after many efforts
I've made, isn't prepared to divulge the

925
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:17,079
name or the location of this pilot. Wow, that would be really amazing.

926
01:20:17,399 --> 01:20:23,800
And has as you've as you have
gone along? Have you well?

927
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:27,880
By the way, I'm putting the
lines open here now if anyone wants to

928
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:30,520
call in, because I do want
to you know, change topics coming up,

929
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:34,399
but I do want to give the
listening audience an opportunity to talk about

930
01:20:34,399 --> 01:20:41,640
this case. So that number is
eight five five four seven two five four

931
01:20:42,279 --> 01:20:45,520
eight three, and that's up on
the screen and YouTube. And I forget

932
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:49,319
where I was going, and I
started out one question and shifted gears into

933
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:53,800
the phone call. Well that's okay, Martin. If I could just mention

934
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:59,920
very quickly if anybody wants a lovely
pressy a summary off the whistle store.

935
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:06,199
Several years ago, the wonderful British
researcher Philip Mantle was the editor of a

936
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:13,279
rather short lived series of UFO magazines
called UFO Matrix, and it became a

937
01:21:13,359 --> 01:21:16,960
terrible headache controumer for Philip unfortunately,
but the several issues of the magazine that

938
01:21:17,039 --> 01:21:21,319
came out were very very good,
had wonderful production values, and in one

939
01:21:21,319 --> 01:21:28,560
of them, this one here UFO
Matrix is the first part of a article

940
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:32,199
about the UFO for the west or
UFO incident, and it continued in the

941
01:21:33,279 --> 01:21:38,680
next edition and you can see there's
some wonderful artwork here, not necessarily to

942
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:44,359
be related to the Westall incident specifically, but if you can get your hands

943
01:21:44,359 --> 01:21:47,520
on those magazines UFO Matrix, they
came out of the United Kingdom, but

944
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:51,319
they were very widely available several years
ago. That's a good place to go

945
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:57,239
to. Also, the City of
Kingston, which is the local government area

946
01:21:57,319 --> 01:22:03,399
that incorporates Westall, the Kingston City
Council, on its historical website pages,

947
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:09,800
it also has an article penned by
me about the Westall story, and so

948
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:15,560
that's also a very good summation of
what happened way back then. Interesting.

949
01:22:15,399 --> 01:22:18,800
You know, this is probably a
little bit of an odd question, but

950
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:24,960
it seems to me when there's an
encounter like this, some of the people

951
01:22:25,079 --> 01:22:30,880
that go through and encounter change.
I think you mentioned that about the police

952
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:36,159
officer, but there's like there's maybe
some type of change that they've noticed as

953
01:22:36,239 --> 01:22:42,399
anyone talked about anything like that or
any type of message they thought they were

954
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:46,119
getting. That's another thing you often
hear about. And I know it's no

955
01:22:46,159 --> 01:22:49,399
one saw any type of being or
anything, but I'm just wondering if any

956
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:58,119
any claims along those lines were ever
made. You had to mention the B

957
01:22:58,279 --> 01:23:00,359
word, didn't you. You had
to talk about I was really trying to

958
01:23:00,399 --> 01:23:04,159
try to stay away from that,
Martin. I'm happy to stay with human

959
01:23:04,199 --> 01:23:06,600
beings, but that's a bit of
a challenge. A lot of the time,

960
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:11,920
there are I'll be honest with you, and there's not much in relation

961
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:16,439
to witness accounts talking about beings,
but there are some. There are,

962
01:23:17,159 --> 01:23:25,479
and there are a couple of witnesses
who have talked about seeing beings associated with

963
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:30,279
the Flying sour at Westall, only
a couple, and they talk about the

964
01:23:30,319 --> 01:23:38,199
beings as being very humanlike coming out
of the craft, we're in close fitting

965
01:23:38,279 --> 01:23:44,960
uniforms, a little bit like astronaut
uniforms but not astronaut uniforms, and then

966
01:23:45,039 --> 01:23:50,359
seeing the being the person going back
into the craft. So it's not a

967
01:23:50,399 --> 01:23:54,319
prominent part of the story, but
I'll admit to you that it's there,

968
01:23:54,880 --> 01:24:00,800
and of course my job as the
researcher is to receive the stories except tried

969
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:05,159
to put them into a context and
to keep an open mind. But in

970
01:24:05,279 --> 01:24:10,439
terms of people being affected, you
know what, with all of this terrible

971
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:14,560
stuff happening at the moment in relation
to climate change, and here in Australia,

972
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:18,960
we're currently experiencing what many people believe
is the worst drought since the European

973
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:26,199
settlement of Australia in seventeen eighty eight. Terrible drought out a drought. It's

974
01:24:26,239 --> 01:24:31,800
the worst drought in human memory,
in human records since European settlement, at

975
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:39,119
least, lack of rainfall, high
temperatures, the terrible bush fires that are

976
01:24:39,159 --> 01:24:44,159
happening, and it makes me think
about that other wonderful school based incident which

977
01:24:44,199 --> 01:24:50,119
happened in nineteen ninety four over in
Zimbabwe and in Rua, and the message

978
01:24:50,159 --> 01:24:57,159
that those kids got from the beings, from the people that they saw and

979
01:24:58,159 --> 01:25:04,439
received some sort of communication from that
really hasn't happened in the Westall story.

980
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:09,640
But I think some witnesses have talked
to me about how what happened that Westall

981
01:25:10,159 --> 01:25:17,039
opening their minds to perhaps a larger
reality or a different reality, a change

982
01:25:17,039 --> 01:25:24,640
in perspective, a greater openness,
and certainly perhaps a little bit of suspicion

983
01:25:26,119 --> 01:25:32,720
around how governments work, how bureaucracies
work, how secrets can actually be kept

984
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:39,039
from people, and being a little
bit more sensitive to that. How about

985
01:25:39,079 --> 01:25:42,640
that? That's really interesting Again.
I just want to say the lines are

986
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:47,840
open eight five four seven two five
four eight three. Sometimes we get cervicalls.

987
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:50,640
Sometimes no one calls in, so
we never know what's going to happen.

988
01:25:53,279 --> 01:25:59,840
Now about James Fox, who was
there as this, there's a segment

989
01:26:00,239 --> 01:26:02,960
phenomenon has film coming out. We
have a phone car coming in now.

990
01:26:03,039 --> 01:26:08,000
I'll take that in a minute.
But you got to meet with James.

991
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:12,920
He's a great guy, isn't He
is a wonderful fellow, full of energy,

992
01:26:13,039 --> 01:26:16,800
full of excitement for a fashion and
I met his lovely wife Rebecca and

993
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:20,880
their beautiful son Ali as well.
So he came out two years ago and

994
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:26,960
we spent the best part of a
week together in Melbourne and we filmed at

995
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,079
Westall, both at the primary school, which we haven't talked a lot about.

996
01:26:30,079 --> 01:26:33,920
There were a lot of witnesses at
the primary school and James and I

997
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:40,680
actually addressed in a gathering of the
kids at the primary school and met one

998
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:45,039
of the primary school witnesses who's now
on staff at the primary school. And

999
01:26:45,119 --> 01:26:48,680
we filmed at the high school as
well. Down at the Grange. We

1000
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:54,840
had quite a few of the Westall
witnesses there, and we actually did some

1001
01:26:54,920 --> 01:27:00,399
filming with some other people associated with
the Westall story and the people who had

1002
01:27:00,439 --> 01:27:06,039
not really ever been filmed before.
I had not really spoken in public before,

1003
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:10,600
and I'm remaining hopeful. I don't
know, of course, this is

1004
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:14,920
up to James and his team,
but I'm remaining hopeful that at least part

1005
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:20,439
of that will be indeed featured in
his upcoming film The Phenomenon. Yeah.

1006
01:27:20,479 --> 01:27:24,319
I can't wait for that to come
out. Okay, so we have a

1007
01:27:24,359 --> 01:27:30,640
call. We have Dale. Dale
is calling from Arizona. Welcome to the

1008
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:36,079
show. Dale. Hey, it's
great to be here. Thank you love

1009
01:27:36,159 --> 01:27:41,159
being a part. All right,
great, you have a question for our

1010
01:27:41,199 --> 01:27:46,800
guest today. Um. Actually,
I was just calling in and talking to

1011
01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:55,560
Race just kind of rekinnel of friendship. I apologize it's kind of a probably

1012
01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:59,520
a glitch on the system. But
what's what's the discussion, Nate? I

1013
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:06,239
Fay's a great he'll say. Okay, and I'm sorry, did you have

1014
01:28:06,279 --> 01:28:13,119
a question for our guests? I'm
sorry I don't because I haven't been paying

1015
01:28:13,159 --> 01:28:16,680
attention. Okay, all right,
I was. I was just calling him

1016
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:20,920
for race, all right, okay, all right, Well, well thanks

1017
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:25,239
for the call. You can call
calling him back in another time. All

1018
01:28:25,319 --> 01:28:29,640
right, all right, So we
have another caller coming coming aboard here in

1019
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:33,359
a minute. They're just hopefully he's
going to be screening that a little better,

1020
01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:41,479
and uh, sorry about that everyone, And so Mike will be on

1021
01:28:41,479 --> 01:28:46,359
the line here in just a second. He's calling from Cincinnati. I think

1022
01:28:46,359 --> 01:28:49,359
that's where he's going from. Mike, Welcome to the show, Yes,

1023
01:28:49,399 --> 01:28:56,920
sir, well, hi Martin.
I wanted to ask him if he's talked

1024
01:28:56,920 --> 01:29:00,960
to I believe he said one hundred
and seventeen witnesses. How many folks in

1025
01:29:01,239 --> 01:29:08,920
ours estimated witness this that day.
It's one of my questions. Sure,

1026
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:13,119
thank you, that was a very
good question. So, yes, I

1027
01:29:13,119 --> 01:29:16,319
have been in contact with one hundred
and seventeen people who were witnesses to the

1028
01:29:16,319 --> 01:29:21,199
flying surcer or flying sources. One
hundred and sixty five who saw the circles

1029
01:29:21,239 --> 01:29:27,359
the ground marks left behind, and
of that there's a subset of about seventy

1030
01:29:27,359 --> 01:29:32,039
people who saw both the flying saucer
and the circles. In terms of the

1031
01:29:32,119 --> 01:29:36,319
total number. Andrew Greenwood, the
science teacher at Westall High School at the

1032
01:29:36,359 --> 01:29:43,399
time. He's on the record as
saying about three quarters of the school population

1033
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:47,720
was out on the sports ground witnessing
the event as it unfolded. And there

1034
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:51,880
were about five hundred and eighty five
kids at the school at the time and

1035
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:58,800
about twenty five staff, so something
like six hundred people in total, and

1036
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:04,479
three quarters of that roundabout were witnesses
at the high school. And so I've

1037
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:10,720
always said to people you can quite
safely say it was something that was certainly

1038
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:15,600
in the hundreds. It was two, three, four hundred people. One

1039
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:18,239
can't be of course absolute about this, but it was that sort of number

1040
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:25,319
and so pretty significant. And remembering
broad daylight in the suburbs of Australia's second

1041
01:30:25,439 --> 01:30:31,199
largest city, so significant, very
significant. Another thing, when you held

1042
01:30:31,279 --> 01:30:36,359
up the newspaper that did publish the
story and you turned it around to the

1043
01:30:36,399 --> 01:30:41,840
backside, I believe it was another
story you were trying to point out.

1044
01:30:42,239 --> 01:30:45,359
I saw the headline said who were
the five pilots? Was that related?

1045
01:30:47,239 --> 01:30:55,319
So that's this one here, So
this is the second article that appeared in

1046
01:30:55,319 --> 01:30:59,760
this newspaper is related, Yes,
So who were five pilots? That's the

1047
01:30:59,800 --> 01:31:03,039
new paper asking the story. Who
were the five pilots that were seen?

1048
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:09,680
Who were piloting the planes that were
seen flying flying Sourcer at the time.

1049
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:13,960
So five planes, five pilots,
who were they? Efforts were made at

1050
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:16,800
the time to work out where the
planes had come from, who the pilots

1051
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:21,239
were. That all drew blanks.
No one could work out who they were.

1052
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:25,560
One of the teachers at the high
school at the time made a phone

1053
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:30,640
call within thirteen minutes of the incident
happening to the airport, the local airport,

1054
01:31:31,159 --> 01:31:39,279
and they were given short shrift,
given no information at all. One

1055
01:31:39,359 --> 01:31:45,439
final question the two girls that were
affected by being closed to the UFO,

1056
01:31:47,239 --> 01:31:50,800
was that for an effect of the
thing taken off? Do you know,

1057
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:58,800
were they knocked back or fainted because
it was leaving at that point. So

1058
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:04,640
that's something that's not known. I
don't know. Obviously, the timing is

1059
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:10,680
a little bit hard to ascertain.
When one of the witnesses arrived on the

1060
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:15,880
scene, the object was apparently stationary
just above the ground, and one of

1061
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:20,359
the girls was still on the ground, one was recovering. And then a

1062
01:32:20,399 --> 01:32:27,279
few seconds after that, it seems
the object began to ascend and then tilted

1063
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:31,960
into the vertical plane and took off. So it sounds like it happened before

1064
01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:34,840
it was lifting off, But I'll
be honest with you, it's hard,

1065
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:41,760
of course, to be again completely
absolute about that. Well, thank you

1066
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:45,479
very much for taking my call.
Pleasure, Thank you, are You're very

1067
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:50,479
welcome. All right, Mike,
So we have another call coming in and

1068
01:32:51,159 --> 01:32:57,720
I think we're all set to take
Andy from Connecticut. Welcome back, Andy,

1069
01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:01,960
Hi, thanks for taking my call. Guys, great show as always.

1070
01:33:02,319 --> 01:33:08,359
I just wanted to ask real quick
if your guests was able to get

1071
01:33:08,399 --> 01:33:12,800
a sense from all of the people
he's interviewed, how many feelers though they

1072
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:19,800
were definitely intimidated by the military or
police at the school, and if they

1073
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:26,960
feel that any US military people were
involved, how clear is their memory of

1074
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:32,760
that event? Answer off the alright, Andy, thank you very much.

1075
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:38,520
Thanks guys, Let's make it more
international, Let's get the Americans involved,

1076
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:44,439
because that's always trouble, isn't it. But I'm sorry, um. In

1077
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:49,840
terms of intimidation, the majority of
the sense of intimidation or threat really,

1078
01:33:50,359 --> 01:33:57,800
I guess was mediated through the the
school authority. So it came ya the

1079
01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:01,279
headmaster, all the deck, the
headmaster, or one or two of the

1080
01:34:01,479 --> 01:34:08,359
executive teachers. So it was really
coming through the school. And you can

1081
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:11,640
understand why that may have been.
As I mentioned before, they were trying

1082
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:15,079
to keep a lid on things,
trying to protect the safety the welfare of

1083
01:34:15,159 --> 01:34:19,960
the students as well as the staff
and the school. But there are witnesses

1084
01:34:20,039 --> 01:34:26,199
a lot of witnesses who talk about
at the assembly there being an extra presence.

1085
01:34:26,239 --> 01:34:30,279
It wasn't just the headmaster and the
staff. There were people there in

1086
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:33,359
uniform, there were people there in
suits. People remember it differently, some

1087
01:34:33,399 --> 01:34:36,800
people remember both. And these were
people who had never been at the school

1088
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:43,159
before. Some people talk about their
being military people walking the corridors of the

1089
01:34:43,199 --> 01:34:48,479
school. And the message was given
at that assembly, either directly from these

1090
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:56,079
government people or through the headmaster that
they would keep that they were to keep

1091
01:34:56,159 --> 01:35:00,640
quiet about this, that it was
nothing to do with flying sources, that

1092
01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:03,479
it was perhaps some secret government program
and it wasn't to be discussed. It

1093
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:10,119
was something experimental and they were to
keep quiet. So a lot of witnesses

1094
01:35:10,159 --> 01:35:14,560
talk about that. Again, another
aspect of the story is what happened when

1095
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:18,079
the kids went home, and it
was a varied experience. For some of

1096
01:35:18,079 --> 01:35:23,079
the students. When they went home, they were received, the story was

1097
01:35:23,119 --> 01:35:27,680
received with open hands. Their parents
wanted to know, they wanted to hear

1098
01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:30,319
all about it. For other kids, it was a different experience. Their

1099
01:35:30,359 --> 01:35:38,039
parents wanted nothing to do with this
story, or they were simply uninterested.

1100
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:42,159
They didn't want to hear about it
at all, and discussion with them the

1101
01:35:42,199 --> 01:35:46,880
family around the dinner table just didn't
happen. And that seems to have been

1102
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:54,960
experience for most of the witnesses that
at the time or afterwards their story was

1103
01:35:55,039 --> 01:36:00,560
met with ridicule or disinterest. And
in a way, you can the standard

1104
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:03,279
because I think we all have the
experience, any of us who have children.

1105
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:08,479
Our kids often come home or they
come into the room and they're talking

1106
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:12,800
about something they've seen or something that's
happened, and almost our initial reaction,

1107
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:15,920
I think as an adult, is
to be skeptical, to be disbelieving.

1108
01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:20,039
Because they're kids. It's sort of
a natural reaction, So in a way

1109
01:36:20,039 --> 01:36:25,000
it's understandable. But in relation to
an incident like this, a story like

1110
01:36:25,079 --> 01:36:30,920
this, it's very very unfortunate,
right right. I want to move on

1111
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:36,720
to other Australian cases, So but
I will say that we'll still take calls

1112
01:36:36,720 --> 01:36:41,279
if someone wants to talk about this
case. And that number again is eight

1113
01:36:41,319 --> 01:36:46,760
five five four seven two five four
eight three, and so what are well,

1114
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:54,520
would you consider this the top UFO
incident in Australia or does something else

1115
01:36:55,399 --> 01:37:00,000
trump that it's half the grade these
things. Of course, in terms of

1116
01:37:00,039 --> 01:37:06,920
it being a mass witness sighting,
it's certainly the biggest mass witness daylight sighting

1117
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:14,159
of at least one, probably more
UFOs, And so it's right up there,

1118
01:37:14,239 --> 01:37:18,000
Martin, and I think in terms
on the international at the international level,

1119
01:37:18,319 --> 01:37:23,199
it's right up there in terms of
a mass witness daylight sighting, and

1120
01:37:23,279 --> 01:37:30,000
also taking into account their response to
it by the government authorities. And when

1121
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:34,840
this story became better known through Rosie
Jones documentary Westill sixty six and the other

1122
01:37:35,279 --> 01:37:42,119
media that's covered the story over the
years. Every time there's something on TV

1123
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:47,439
or in a newspaper or in a
magazine, I get contacted by new witnesses

1124
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:55,159
to this incident quite often, and
sometimes witnesses to similar incidents. And so

1125
01:37:55,239 --> 01:38:00,920
over the years, I've gathered this
small collection of other school based sightings that

1126
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:08,399
have happened in Australia. And one
of them happened only about twenty kilometers away

1127
01:38:09,079 --> 01:38:15,119
two years later, in another Melbourne
school, another high school, and there

1128
01:38:15,159 --> 01:38:19,239
was a small article about it.
A journalist from the Age newspaper went to

1129
01:38:19,319 --> 01:38:25,119
the school to talk to the kids
about becoming a journalist, about journalism,

1130
01:38:25,319 --> 01:38:28,560
and he got to the school gate
and all the kids wanted to talk about

1131
01:38:29,119 --> 01:38:32,600
was the UFO that they just seen
holding about school flying over the school.

1132
01:38:32,840 --> 01:38:36,319
And so that's what he ended up
writing about the next day in the newspaper.

1133
01:38:38,159 --> 01:38:40,840
And then that story was gone,
it was lost. Nobody else ever

1134
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:45,079
talked about. It was never reported
again. I stumbled across it going through

1135
01:38:45,119 --> 01:38:48,840
the newspaper archives, made contact with
some of those people who were there that

1136
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:55,159
day through Facebook, through email,
was able to gather information about that story.

1137
01:38:55,760 --> 01:39:00,399
And so there were some other similar
stories like that, not many,

1138
01:39:00,760 --> 01:39:04,279
I don't think, but I'm cautious
when I say that. Now. Ever,

1139
01:39:04,399 --> 01:39:11,960
since Preston Dennett came along with that
wonderful book that he's just published about

1140
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:15,840
school based UFO stings, and he
blew my socks off with how many that

1141
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:18,720
he had discovered. I can't believe
it. I know it was a hundred

1142
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:26,039
something, wonderful, wonderful and some
of them I did know about, but

1143
01:39:26,199 --> 01:39:29,840
most of them I did not.
And I think he's done a terrific job

1144
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:32,560
unearthing the number that he has done, and there are probably more out there

1145
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:36,159
that he hasn't found, but he's
done a wonderful job. And so it's

1146
01:39:36,199 --> 01:39:43,119
really this important subset I think,
within the UFO phenomena of sightings, and

1147
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:47,560
like Preston asks out loud, as
he did on your program a few weeks

1148
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:55,079
ago, what does it mean?
Why do UFOs appear above schools? Why

1149
01:39:55,199 --> 01:40:00,800
is there this interaction between the kids
and the UFOs? Are we supposed to

1150
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:05,840
take from that? And of course
it's an open question, but it's a

1151
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:13,880
fascinating one, and for me,
my eyes were really opened when again I

1152
01:40:14,039 --> 01:40:17,560
made a trip to Sydney to talk
to the UFO Research New South Wales organization

1153
01:40:18,079 --> 01:40:23,079
at one of their meetings several years
ago, and one of their members walked

1154
01:40:23,159 --> 01:40:26,239
up to me and said, Shane, do you know about the UFO sighting

1155
01:40:26,279 --> 01:40:31,520
that happened at the school called Crestview
Elementary School in Opa Locka, in Florida,

1156
01:40:31,600 --> 01:40:35,680
in the suburbs of Miami in nineteen
sixty seven. I said, no,

1157
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:40,039
I know nothing about that. I'd
gone to the meeting to address the

1158
01:40:40,079 --> 01:40:44,640
members about the Westall story. And
he showed me this book, this wonderful

1159
01:40:44,680 --> 01:40:47,439
book you probably know about Martin,
written by the Lorenzens back in the nineteen

1160
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:54,720
sixties called UFOs over the Americas.
And there's a whole section in the book

1161
01:40:55,079 --> 01:41:02,000
which details the Crestview Elementary School incident, which happened exactly a year to the

1162
01:41:02,119 --> 01:41:09,079
day, the sixth of April nineteen
sixty seven, a year to the day.

1163
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:12,960
And there are so many elements of
the story. And it was an

1164
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:16,720
incident which happened over three days,
and not many people know that Westall also

1165
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:23,399
was an incident which involved several days. I didn't know the sightings. There

1166
01:41:23,399 --> 01:41:27,880
were sightings, yes, by several
witnesses in the day and the following days

1167
01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:34,760
up to the following weekend, of
the same shaped object over Westall by the

1168
01:41:34,840 --> 01:41:41,359
same kids. And the same thing
happened at crescue in the suburbs of Miami,

1169
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:44,880
and so many other elements, the
air force going to cresscue, the

1170
01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:51,840
police, the flying sources descending and
descending behind pine trees on the other side

1171
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:57,800
of the road from where the school
was. Ground marks being found in the

1172
01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:02,720
field near the school, circles,
discolored grass, kids being told not to

1173
01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:06,920
talk about it, the science teacher
at the elementary school being one of the

1174
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:13,199
protagonists at the Crest View sighting just
like it Westall, it's almost as if

1175
01:42:14,079 --> 01:42:18,479
it's almost as if our minds are
being played with in some way, that

1176
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:25,159
someone somewhere has this wonderful sense of
humor. And of course, as human

1177
01:42:25,199 --> 01:42:28,319
beings, we like to see patterns
in things. We like to put the

1178
01:42:28,319 --> 01:42:32,760
pieces together and discover patterns where perhaps
patterns don't really exist. But when you

1179
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:40,039
see coincidences like this involving dates and
ages of kids and people, and it's

1180
01:42:40,039 --> 01:42:44,640
hard not to get a little bit
curious about it all. Yeah, and

1181
01:42:44,760 --> 01:42:48,399
especially if they would follow our calendar, Who knows what their calendar would be

1182
01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:55,079
to be when you we have a
run ran As calling from Minnesota. Hey,

1183
01:42:55,199 --> 01:42:59,560
Ron, welcome to the show.
Hi Martin, I'm glad to be

1184
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:01,720
here, but you have a life
showed a minute. Thank you, and

1185
01:43:02,119 --> 01:43:10,760
hello Shane, hellove and I had
a question for your Shane and maybe from

1186
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:14,560
Martin two. Both of you can
answer it. Out of all of your

1187
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:20,560
investigations of this subject or topic,
have you ever seen one in real life?

1188
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:28,520
And what do you think or who
do you think they are? Oh,

1189
01:43:28,640 --> 01:43:31,880
mast and you should definitely go first
with that one. Okay, Well,

1190
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:34,199
just to let you know, we
only have about four minutes left,

1191
01:43:34,319 --> 01:43:39,520
so we have we're in a tight
Well. Yeah, I had a sighting

1192
01:43:39,560 --> 01:43:42,880
I actually have talked about a number
of times. I hate to be redundant,

1193
01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:47,439
so i'll i'll about it. Was. It was I would I consider

1194
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:51,640
kind of a boring sighting, but
it was a flying saucer. I mean,

1195
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:56,000
as close as you can say to
what I saw was a perfect disc

1196
01:43:57,079 --> 01:44:01,039
in California several years ago, and
it was you know, I tried to

1197
01:44:01,079 --> 01:44:03,479
report it and I didn't know who
to report it to, and all that

1198
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:09,000
stuff wasn't anything fantastical, but it
still the thing that baffled me the most

1199
01:44:09,119 --> 01:44:13,680
was the no sound part of it. I couldn't understand that when it was

1200
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:15,800
moving and all that. But Shane, go ahead. Did you ever have

1201
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:20,560
any type of sating in a sense? I did? A few years ago.

1202
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:24,920
I traveled to a country town about
two hours from where I lived here

1203
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:29,960
in Canberra, where my grandparents had
been married, and I was going to

1204
01:44:30,079 --> 01:44:32,119
visit the church where they were married
to have a look. And as I

1205
01:44:32,159 --> 01:44:35,800
was driving, as I was getting
closer to the town, I saw this

1206
01:44:35,960 --> 01:44:44,119
series of round white light discs.
There was sort of a bit fluffy high

1207
01:44:44,199 --> 01:44:48,079
up in the sky in a formation, racing across the sky. And as

1208
01:44:48,079 --> 01:44:53,920
I was traveling along the road in
my car trying to keep looking at them

1209
01:44:53,920 --> 01:44:57,880
as I'm driving and looking out the
window and out at the windscreen, and

1210
01:44:58,159 --> 01:45:02,159
I stopped the car at just before
the town I was going to and stop

1211
01:45:02,239 --> 01:45:05,720
the car at this rest spot where
there were people serving coffee, and I

1212
01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:10,279
got out and I could still see
them in the sky flying over. And

1213
01:45:10,319 --> 01:45:13,880
I talked to the people who were
there, and they hadn't noticed them,

1214
01:45:14,079 --> 01:45:15,880
and they didn't seem to be paying
much attention to them, even after I

1215
01:45:16,039 --> 01:45:19,800
pointed it out to them. You
know how these mysterious things sometimes happened with

1216
01:45:20,079 --> 01:45:27,159
UFO encounters. So they were UFOs
because they were flying and I couldn't identify

1217
01:45:27,239 --> 01:45:30,039
them, never seen anything like it
before. But who knows what they were?

1218
01:45:30,399 --> 01:45:33,760
Yeah, I have the same I
have no idea what they were.

1219
01:45:34,800 --> 01:45:41,840
But thank sright, are you going
to reach right? All right? Yeah,

1220
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:44,960
that's going to be it for a
cars for us tonight. We only

1221
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:55,399
have a few minutes left, so
I think with that a few minutes there.

1222
01:45:56,279 --> 01:45:59,720
The interesting part I think about this
is the aftermath, and that's still

1223
01:45:59,760 --> 01:46:04,600
after fifty years, people come forward
and talk about it. And I was

1224
01:46:04,680 --> 01:46:10,960
just also wondering were there any other
type of like a farmer or anything like

1225
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:17,880
that that said they saw this thing
as well, this incident besides, you

1226
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:24,119
know, school children and teachers there
were so excuse me, there were a

1227
01:46:24,159 --> 01:46:29,920
lot of There were residents in the
Westall area who were also witnesses, and

1228
01:46:30,359 --> 01:46:32,199
one of them had been a student
at Westall High School a couple of years

1229
01:46:32,199 --> 01:46:36,079
earlier and was working as a farmhand. He was only sixteen years old at

1230
01:46:36,079 --> 01:46:41,800
the time, but he was working
as a farmhand in the market garden adjacent

1231
01:46:41,880 --> 01:46:45,800
to the grange with his boss,
who was a man in his late twenties

1232
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:50,079
I think at that point, and
another man in his early twenties, and

1233
01:46:50,319 --> 01:46:56,159
they witnessed the flying source that coming
down towards the pine trees at the grange,

1234
01:46:57,119 --> 01:47:00,039
and Paul, who was the witness, says, it wasn't in It

1235
01:47:00,079 --> 01:47:03,600
didn't look in the same way as
the kids have described it over the years.

1236
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:08,920
For him, it looked as though
it was something being projected into the

1237
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:13,600
sky, and it was solid to
begin with, and then as it traveled

1238
01:47:13,600 --> 01:47:17,880
down towards the grange, towards the
pine trees, it began to change and

1239
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:26,800
became gradually more translucent and then eventually
almost transparent, with these colors blues and

1240
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:30,880
purples and greens in the midst and
it flew into the grove of pine trees,

1241
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:35,560
and the pine trees didn't move,
and the flying saucer, the object

1242
01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:41,880
didn't come out the other side.
It just vanished. And something just like

1243
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:46,119
this happened the crestfew a year later, and all three of these boys and

1244
01:47:46,239 --> 01:47:50,239
men saw this, and then they
saw the kids from westvill High School coming

1245
01:47:50,239 --> 01:47:55,439
and rushing down, chasing whatever it
was that they had seen the same object,

1246
01:47:55,720 --> 01:48:00,159
presumably, And then twenty minutes later, two army trucks and two land

1247
01:48:00,239 --> 01:48:05,479
roads full of about twenty soldiers turned
up in the neighboring paddock with trucks full

1248
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:14,720
of equipment and started looking for what
they had seen and started investigating. And

1249
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:17,800
so there were other witnesses. It
wasn't just the school kids and the teachers

1250
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:21,000
at the schools. Well, we
are totally out of time. Thanks so

1251
01:48:21,079 --> 01:48:26,079
much. It was fun as always
talking to you. I really appreciate it.

1252
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:28,720
And you take care, thank you, and take care of yourself.

1253
01:48:28,760 --> 01:48:30,520
Thank you. All right, all
right, everyone, So that is it

1254
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:35,880
for the show this evening. And
as I mentioned, if you are listening

1255
01:48:36,920 --> 01:48:43,159
to this show on YouTube, you
want to click that bell next to the

1256
01:48:43,359 --> 01:48:47,760
subscription to subscribe button there to get
a notification because I don't know exactly when

1257
01:48:47,760 --> 01:48:50,359
I'm going to have the next show
and who's going to be on. I

1258
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:55,079
remember to check out our t shirts
over at podcast UFO the blog over there

1259
01:48:55,119 --> 01:48:59,319
as well, and I want to
thank everyone that helps out and remember to

1260
01:48:59,479 --> 01:49:00,319
keep your eyes to the sky.