WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:09.839 a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.240 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:18.839 we'll get you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:37.320 at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot NetRocks. 6 00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:40.880 I'm Carl Franklin and I'machard Campbell. And man, it's been a while 7 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:43.880 since we've done a show. We've done a studio show. We did recorded 8 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:47.119 a bunch in Copenhagen, which was fun, right, and we're going to 9 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:50.439 be in Porto not long from now recording a bunch more. But this is 10 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:54.039 like the in between the two. We get one studio show and you're in 11 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:57.759 your studio. I'm in my new studio. Yes, that's cool. How 12 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:00.560 is it are you? Take a look? I mean it's it seems familiar. 13 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:04.480 It's exactly what you think because you've been in the old ones. So 14 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:10.200 the walls are kept the red wall. Look, it's the same fabric. 15 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:14.480 It's not the same bolts of fabric because obviously I bought new ones time has, 16 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:21.120 but it's the same stuff. The insulation behind the fabric is rock wall 17 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:23.560 yep. And on the outside walls before we did rockwell, we did spray 18 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:29.760 foam insulation. Nice. So it's actually insulated to our fifty if anybody else 19 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:33.159 in construction, that's really really tight. Yeah, as soon as you can 20 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:37.040 heat the place with a sixty watt light bulb you know, still existed. 21 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.280 And I'll move my head so you can see that split h VAC unit. 22 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.439 Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have to work very hard. No, No, 23 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:48.920 that's great. I mean, i mean my space up on the coast, 24 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.560 so this is my office is still not assembled. I've been away a 25 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.159 fair bit, but you know, I've got enough running here to at least 26 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.920 from the portable rig. But this will eventually be the setting, yep. 27 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.599 You know, as we get stuff set up, it's good, you know, 28 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:04.760 change as I put. Yeah, and I'm sure that my microphone sounds 29 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:07.400 tighter, in other words, less echoey than it was even in my old 30 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.199 place, without a doubt, which I just had U haul blankets up on 31 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:14.719 the walls. You know. Yeah, this is like serious, yeah, 32 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.479 really properly proved. I'm probably I was thinking I've probably get a few real 33 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.520 traps in here, because it is a it is a jip rock box. 34 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.159 Yeah, but you know, I actually, you know what, I have 35 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:30.960 the stuff. Yeah, I have the the insulation and the material and the 36 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.159 glue. I could send it to you. Ethan Weiner is a genius. 37 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:36.039 Though. You know, a couple of real traps in the corner of this 38 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:38.599 room would probably go pretty flat. It probably would. Yep. Yeah, 39 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:52.840 okay, let's start off with something cool for better no framework awesome. You've 40 00:02:52.879 --> 00:03:00.280 heard of Jeff Frits, right, Yeah, I'm lascinating because he's an old 41 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:02.240 friend of ours. Yeah, well, all I think is purple sequence. 42 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:07.919 I'm thinking purple sequence, purple sequence, purple goatee. He is working at 43 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:15.560 Microsoft and he's evangelizing for the Blazer team. He's doing live coding and that's 44 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:20.520 his job is to just you know, be in touch with the community over 45 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:28.479 Blazer. So he and I started this new weekly thing called the Blazer Puzzle. 46 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:30.800 Oh nice, And if you go to Blazer Puzzle dot com you'll see 47 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:36.000 all the ones that we've done so far. So here's the premise. They're 48 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:39.159 only like fifteen minutes long, so they're nuggets. Nuggets, yes, but 49 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:44.879 they're definitely nuggets that you can participate in and win coffee mugs and stuff. 50 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:51.120 So we show you some code that doesn't work, some Blazer thing. Why 51 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:55.439 doesn't it work? And then people send in their answers to Blazer Puzzle at 52 00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.680 appv next and we pick from all of the correct answers, we pick one 53 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:06.039 at random. That person gets a you know, a puzzle mug and a 54 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:12.159 T shirt or a T shirt, we're not sure yet. And then we 55 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:17.480 basically you know, show the solution and then we do a new puzzle for 56 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:23.720 next week. Nice. Yeah, simple, and it's fun Blazer puzzle. 57 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:27.000 Yeah, and just getting people, you know, aware of what's out there, 58 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:29.279 that's right. I mean, you know, if you don't want to 59 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:32.639 sit through a lot of training, you know, hours of Blazer train or 60 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:38.399 even anything that's on YouTube or whatever, you can just have some fun and 61 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:42.560 learn little bits, a little bits and pieces. I love it. And 62 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:45.879 yeah, make it digestible just a little bit of the time. Yeah, 63 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.879 make it fun cool. If you've got Google you could probably do pretty well. 64 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:56.399 And we also have a talk a Blazer Puzzle talk in the upcoming dot 65 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:59.600 net comf that's awesome. Isn't that cool? Yeah? Dot net comf coming 66 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:01.399 up in No so, Yeah, it'd be great that you're in that. 67 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.600 Yeah, cool one, dude. Congratulations. You know it's sort of a 68 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:11.160 related topic area. I shot a video series with the Visual Studio team called 69 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.160 Tea and Technology because it couldn't be coffee and code. I don't drink coffee, 70 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:19.120 Uh tea, But yeah, I got to go run around and talk 71 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:24.279 to a bunch of the visual studio leadership folks, or not just leadership, 72 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:27.240 but like the engineers doing the thing. Of course. I talked to Mad's 73 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:34.600 Christiansen and Leslie Richardson, James Montamagno and yeapped up with with Amanda Silver. 74 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:38.480 Wow, that's so cool. And just to sort of reminder, you know, 75 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:42.560 digging into all the great things they're happening in studio. You know, 76 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:47.040 it seems like people have forgotten how good our IDEs are. You know, 77 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:50.639 it's easy to play with the new tools and different approaches to things. It's 78 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:55.160 like, you know why we like id's because they rock, They rock, 79 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.079 they work, they make you more productive, and so it was really great 80 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:00.839 to dig into the various products in the stack, Like you forget how good 81 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:04.879 the debugger is and you know, and those kinds of things. It was 82 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.920 really fun to DEBT series, so I'll include a link in the show notes. 83 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.600 But yeah, T and technology of the visual studios in mini series excellent. 84 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.800 All right, Well that's that's what I got. Who's talking to us? 85 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:17.920 Richard grabbed a comment of a show seventeen fifty nine, and that was 86 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:21.519 the show we did with our friend Mark Seeman back in twenty twenty one about 87 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:27.279 code that fits in your head. And the name on it is ye dev 88 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.720 Text. But I'm pretty sure it's not Kanye. I'm just saying, Kanye, 89 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:36.480 if you do you listen to the show. Interesting, No, I'm 90 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:41.160 pretty sure it's not. Anyway, Ye dev Text has a bit of a 91 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.680 rant, and I read it because I could so relate to it too. 92 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.199 He said, because we said something casual like get someone to look at your 93 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.240 code, I think I found the line where the buggies iss. I just 94 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:53.560 couldn't get a single personal look at the code I'm working on to save my 95 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:57.600 life. The reality is that zero higher ups could care less about the quality 96 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.519 of code. They only care if it works, then they tell to move 97 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:02.759 on and put out the next fire. This is from the point of view 98 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:05.680 of someone who makes internal code. I have an old web app that I'm 99 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:11.399 being asked to save, and none of it fits in my head. Man 100 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:14.560 sits in your head. Over time, I have learned the value of making 101 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.399 code that fits in your head, because I myself, in earlier years, 102 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:21.279 followed mentorship that didn't care about quality or readability of code. The only care 103 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:26.279 about performance, and more that it was if it worked or not. Zero 104 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:30.759 care about craftsmanship. As I tried to push for basic automated testing, and 105 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.959 as I tried to even learn how to make code more readable or maintainable, 106 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.600 I got labeled as the guy who just likes to write a lot of code 107 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:41.879 and that I made things too complex. No one noticed I was trying to 108 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:45.800 figure out how to go this route of making code that would fit in someone's 109 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:48.439 head. They even told me no one cared how my code looked as long 110 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:53.959 as it worked. The internal web app has as many god methods that don't 111 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:57.360 fit in your head, but the web app kind of works, so it's 112 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:01.199 considered good. Also, don't tell me to change where I work. I 113 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.120 have medical stuff that runs in my family, and this employer is willing to 114 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:09.319 be lenient on my leaves. So I'm stuck, or rather, you choose 115 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.160 to be stuck because you get some benefits to make it worthwhile. Yeah. 116 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.639 I used to want to learn so much, but that fire has just about 117 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:20.160 been put out. Now I do what it can, but slowly I will 118 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.519 bend my own opinions and feelings about should be done versus just get it done. 119 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:26.879 Experiences made it so that I can write bad code. It looks bad 120 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:31.839 on my part and underminds me personality. But hey, thanks for the therapy 121 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.679 session. That was a great episode. It's kind of a downer, but 122 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.600 at the same time, it's like, you know, it's hard to do 123 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.480 good when there's just no reinforcement for it at all. Yeah, you know, 124 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.440 although it really I think Ye, and I'm pretty sure his name's not 125 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.279 Ye. It's really about code you can live with too, because you're probably 126 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.279 gonna have to read it again as well, Like, don't make your own 127 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:58.399 life miserable. But I'm with you. You're not going to get any support 128 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.720 from your team about that, and I understand why you want to stay. 129 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:03.840 You know, you're taking care of the things that are important to you, 130 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:09.440 and that doesn't mean you get to spend a lot of time acraftsmanship. Yeah, 131 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:11.879 but hey, let me send you a copy of music Koba. And 132 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:13.159 if you'd like a copy of music Koba, I write a comment on the 133 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:16.559 website at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every 134 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:20.120 show there, and if you comment there and I'm reading the show, we'll 135 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.320 send you copy of music Koba. And you can definitely follow us on Twitter 136 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.440 or ex or whatever the hell it's called today. But the real fun that 137 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:31.679 is happening over on mastadon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot social, 138 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.799 and I'm at Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. Send us a toot. 139 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.200 We like toots. Yeah, some good conversations going on over there. 140 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:43.519 I got it, definitely, definitely, definitely more focused. I think people 141 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:48.600 are there for intentionally. It's just Debrie r. Yeah. So uh, 142 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:54.279 let me introduce again, bring him back to the show. Egil Hanson. 143 00:09:54.799 --> 00:10:00.799 He's a Dane chilling in Iceland and a developer at Delegate and a Microsoft MVP. 144 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.519 He chats globally at conferences about nifty developer stuff and it's all about that 145 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:11.639 clean, maintainable code is. He's the creator behind b unit for Blazer tests 146 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:16.960 and angle sharp dot diffing think spot the HTML difference in c sharp. Though 147 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.840 he's danced to many techtoons. Egil's current jam is everything dot net and cloud 148 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:31.960 and yes, this bio was written by chat GPT. Oh no, it's 149 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.120 everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I had to do something right. I had 150 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:39.639 a very long bias bio and very serious one on that right, so put 151 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.840 it in there and say make it funny. And this was what came out 152 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:48.080 with us few adjustments stop that at all. Well, welcome back. Yeah, 153 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:52.240 Hey, how's b unit? B unit is doing okay? And by 154 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:56.000 the way, just to comment on that, uh comment from ye comments, 155 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:01.200 yeah comment and coming from from Yeah, I'm a big fan of that book. 156 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:07.639 Martin Mark Shiemann wrote, we read that at the company actually as sort 157 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:11.679 of a book coupling and it's a it's it's a completely agree with that. 158 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:16.240 I think the biggest problem in that regard is you need us, we as 159 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:22.000 developers need to learn to speak a language that management will understand so that we 160 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:26.879 are allowed to actually write good, maintainable code because it doesn't actually pay in 161 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:31.559 the long long run. There's lots of leadershire supporting that yeah, and I 162 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.159 guess that's that's one of the challenges there is the you know, finding a 163 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:41.960 way to convince to see the value in quality code. But I'm empathizing with 164 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:45.399 you. I mean, it's it's a hard fight. And he's also got 165 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.279 things to deal with. I mean, obviously some challenges at home that his 166 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:54.159 employer is supporting. Like the these don't sound like bad people, right, 167 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.399 They're taking care of each other. They just have a different set of priorities 168 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:00.559 because they don't see the value. Yeah. Yeah, I gotta tell you 169 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:05.600 that I use B unit in my Blazer classes that I teach that's online. 170 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.720 I did a Blazer train on unit testing and we use b unit, So 171 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:16.519 I'm really really curious as to what's new in B unit. So curiously, 172 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.399 we haven't had to do a lot of changes, so I guess we started 173 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:28.559 around twoy nineteen when I sort of started prototyping and building it. And I 174 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:39.600 think mostly due to Stephen Sanderson's brilliant architecture around not being with a Blazer that 175 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:45.720 because we are sort of leveraging the low level bits in Blazer, those haven't 176 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:50.440 really changed a lot, right, So so the call render engine, call 177 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.759 rentering parts of Blazer have stayed the same all lists since then. Yeah, 178 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.559 because if the underlying platforms shifted on you, you be in the middle of 179 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.279 a big rewrite exactly. Yeah, but we do have a yearly cadence where 180 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.120 we have to do at least a small point release of b unit because as 181 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.480 a net release and we want to support that. This is a big one, 182 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.399 isn't it. I mean, this one changes things well, and surprisingly 183 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.279 it doesn't really right because the Blazer renderer is still the same. What it's 184 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:24.440 doing now is it's allowing you to render things on the server and instead of 185 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:30.120 sending we had bits and bobs down to the client using signal, of just 186 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:35.279 generating everything in using BASM on the client, it's generating HTVL and sending that 187 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.519 if you're using the streaming rendering and the service right side rendering things. But 188 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.159 that is all there on top of the core fundamentals of Blazer, so we 189 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.000 haven't actually had to do anything extra to support that, which is super nice. 190 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:54.480 So some of the things we are working on me and my cointaner Steven 191 00:13:54.519 --> 00:14:00.440 Giselle, is more related to things we want to do for you too, 192 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:05.120 So you know, looking back, it's always fun to sit and and just 193 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:09.200 seeing that it's been four years now and and some of the things I would 194 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:15.120 have done different since then would probably be to remember the good old Yagni principle 195 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:20.879 you ain't gonna need it. And so I kind of made some design decisions 196 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.679 and we are stuck with them at least as long as we stay with the 197 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.600 V one, because we don't want to break people, right, even though 198 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.240 I think most if not all of the units users are not really using any 199 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.480 of the parts that we could potentially could want to break. But but things 200 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:41.279 like because of this design we talked about with Blazer at a support, basically 201 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.879 it can spit out everything that was that Blazer mobile bindings at one point, 202 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:50.480 which was might might become a thing. And I think Steven had a demo 203 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:56.440 where he generated FLOORA components of Flota code from Blazer. So I decided to 204 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.720 architect B units such that that's a core part that doesn't care what is the 205 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.120 output of your components, if it's HTML or something else. And then there's 206 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:09.480 a web part and that additional abstraction is there and it's working, but it's 207 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:13.399 not being used. So that's sort of a layer with added Yeah, and 208 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.399 it really is a classic example of what you ain't gonna need it because I 209 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:22.919 thought it might be useful at some point, and four years later, we 210 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:26.320 just have additional abstractions to maintain that we had to uh to have that we 211 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:33.639 have to work around. But one thing that we have been ironing out during 212 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:39.759 the last year and a half has been stability. So there are there have 213 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.080 been some it's cases you could get into where you rent a component that does 214 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:48.840 something maybe a syncness, and you sort of have to get the timing right 215 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:54.279 in your chest to to wait for that thing. And we've seen some interesting 216 00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:00.879 behaviors Foxample. We had one user that was able to ended with a very 217 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.879 large component try he was rendering doing a test like with thousands of component that 218 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:08.720 was being rendered in a single test could cause a stag overflow, and we 219 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.440 spent a lot of time and I even actually got on a call with the 220 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:18.240 entire Blazer team asking for some input on that problem to really chase down and 221 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:22.320 see if that's anywhere in the code base on the Baser side of things that 222 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:27.919 isn't sort of thread safe or isn't has any surprising things. And the annoying 223 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:32.519 thing was actually it turned out after a lot of an investigation, what happened 224 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:37.000 was that when a test run is over, a test is finished, it 225 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.519 will dispose of the bi unit test contact with the sort of the whole host 226 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:45.080 for setting up at test right and running and rendering a based component and passing 227 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:49.759 in parameters and services to it. So typically what you do, if you 228 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:53.720 are a good you know dot net development, is that when you have something 229 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.639 that implements I disposable, you dispose of that when you're done with it. 230 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:02.879 So beally white thing to do exactly right, So what happened. What happened 231 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:07.279 is that we would when the test was over and the test had actually passed 232 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.000 its assertions. So when the test method is exiting, it will typically go 233 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:17.200 ahead and dispose of the beanal test context, which would then dispose of the 234 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:22.119 unit renderer. But in cases like this where you have a huge component tree 235 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.519 and some components might still be doing work, they might still be rendering, 236 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.640 they might have timers and other things going on inside them that would cause them 237 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.079 to be in the process of rendering at the time where the test was finished 238 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.720 running and would dispose of itself, and that would be disposed of the Blazer 239 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:42.960 renderer, which is like the core component that is driving and each test. 240 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.359 Yeah, yeah, well and that is completely fine, that's actually what we 241 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:52.759 want. The problem was we hadn't really thought about that as a problem because 242 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.440 we said, well, when we're disposing, we don't care about the state 243 00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.319 of the componentry. But because things were still going on when we just most 244 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:06.039 of the renderer, the components that the components generating sort of got into an 245 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.240 invalid state, and all of a sudden it was possible to have cycles in 246 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:12.559 the components we which would cause the stack overflow. And it was a thing 247 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:18.359 that only happened obviously when you were running on a CI slow CI could the 248 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.359 server up in the clouds and and uh super high to reproduce, And it 249 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.440 only happened when we were running together with other tests and things like that. 250 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:33.559 So yeah, I've grown rary of disposables and really also protecting the state of 251 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.759 things after a disposed methods being called husband called. So that was a fun 252 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.759 one to track down. Yes, I mean what I like about this story 253 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:47.839 is like clearly people are pushing b unit to places you'd never imagine. Like 254 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:49.640 that's the best compliment you could make a piece of software. So I took 255 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:55.160 it to somewhere I'd never been before and we found some things. Oh absolutely, 256 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:00.400 yeah, I remember back you mentioned fridge. I use to jump on 257 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.039 on Twitch and hunt around for people that was using b unit back in two 258 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:10.079 thousand and twenty nineteen twenty twenty because I wanted to see how they were using 259 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.480 it, and and it's it's it's a fun experience watching people using your your 260 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:19.440 framework and and and and seeing them start heading down that rosy golden path that 261 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:22.200 you laid out for them where they will land in the pit up success and 262 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.039 all of a sudden they take a right turn right over the cliff and you're 263 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:29.720 like, uh, what what And and oh I should have put yeah, 264 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:33.519 I should have problem and put some guardrails up on there and and so so 265 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:38.839 I think building b unit has been a massively fun and interesting thing. Also 266 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:45.000 just learning about API design and being able to learning to design something where people 267 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:52.559 will land in that pitup success right and intuitively they will get to when they 268 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:57.599 try something that is probably what happens is probably what they wanted. So when 269 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:03.759 did you add snow shot testing to be unit? Because when I did my 270 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:10.880 Blazer train with Simon Cowell. We used b unit and then he introduced his 271 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.079 Snapshot testing framework, and so I was it in there then or did you 272 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:22.359 add that afterwards? So I initially prototyped something back before V one, and 273 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.920 I actually talked a lot with Simon. He's a fantastic omesource developer as well, 274 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:32.799 and his library you're talking about verify, which is sort of a foundational 275 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:34.559 library, and then he has a whole bunch of plugins on top of that 276 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:41.880 that understands HTML or Blazer or I don't know. In seat framework. He 277 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.000 has a whole bunch of extensions that basically allows us to allows you to do 278 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.759 snapshot testing. And so we prototyped a bit on something that would be embedded 279 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:56.880 directly in your Blazer test components. But at some point I decided to that 280 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:02.160 it wasn't really worth to have it built directly into b units and instead, 281 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:07.640 you know, point O point over to Simon's very I dot Blazer test library, 282 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:14.279 which uses be uted under the hood. Uh So, uh, I 283 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:15.960 guess the answer is I I never really did. We tried a little bit, 284 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.200 but then decided to just use whatever he has because it there's a whole 285 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:23.240 bunch of educases that it will handle for you. Okay, But but there 286 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:29.400 is snapshot tests in the unit used them, there was. That was sort 287 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.920 of part of the initial before V won. It's kind of been in an 288 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.000 I don't really support it phase since then. I just used it last month. 289 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:44.119 Has it been taken out since No, we just kept stopped using it. 290 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:47.000 Yeah, exactly. Like so if you go to b unit ad ev 291 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:51.519 to read the documentation there, we basically say use use verify, and I 292 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:55.319 do remember you. Also, I saw that Blazer train with you where you 293 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.039 had Simon on and I do believe you. I got that feeling that you 294 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.440 had some good arguments. Why actually his model was better than the one we 295 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:06.759 were trying to do. So well, it's different, right, I mean 296 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:11.039 it's different. Yeah. Yeah. Snapshot testing basically says, you know, 297 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:17.279 take a snapshot of it and when anything changes the output. Yeah, the 298 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.519 output exactly. Here's the input, you know, here are the parameters, 299 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:25.119 here's the output, and if anything changes, fail the task and you can 300 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.839 say, now I meant to do that or not. We do have something 301 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:33.200 now in b unit that is definitely supported and implemented through the angle Shop diffing 302 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.559 library, which was my building anglesh up diffing was a detO I took from 303 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.359 B unit of a couple of months because I wanted a way to semantically compare 304 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:47.319 two sets of markup like the one you expect, kind of like snapshot testing. 305 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.319 So you define this is what I expect, and then you have whatever 306 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:55.880 was produced by the component. But I wanted a semantic comparer that understood HTML 307 00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:00.519 and understand that the order of attributes on an element doesn't matter, so that 308 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.400 shouldn't fail the test if you refactor your component to order the attributes differently, 309 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:07.960 or the order of classes in the class attribute, or even white space, 310 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.799 and white space is for the most part insignificant, at least if you have 311 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:17.000 two more spaces next to each other, right, So that is what is 312 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:21.079 that is definitely still there. And that is if you don't want to go 313 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:26.920 the Verify route with snapshots testing and snapshots being separate from the component test you're 314 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:33.200 writing, we have the markup matches method and it works. It works really 315 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.680 well if you have, for example, smaller snapshots that you can just in 316 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.759 line and I scally that is my preferred method. So you write a test 317 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:44.240 for a component and then you get to your assertion step. You say my 318 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:48.960 component and then you do markup matches and then you pass in the markup that 319 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:56.599 should be there. And if you write your B unit tests in race of 320 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:00.599 files, so you're actually writing them in race of files, you can use 321 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.680 mark up in line in your see sharp code, which means you don't have 322 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:08.839 to escape quotes and things like that, and you get intelliscence and you get 323 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:12.839 syntax highlighting FORTML directly in your CEE sharp code. So that is that is 324 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:18.680 actually also if you go and look at at being the the depth the dogmentation 325 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.799 side right now, that is the way we recommend doing it now because the 326 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:30.359 Razor editor experience in visual studio and in writer have become much much better than 327 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.640 it was originally, so it actually works quite well now. Now if you're 328 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.359 what about if you're using code behind, will it still work there? In 329 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:40.480 a C sharp class it will, And it's become a lot easier to work 330 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.400 with with C sharp eleven where you've got the wrong string literals, so you 331 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.920 can do triple quotes and then you can have some mark up and then in 332 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:51.960 the mark up parts it would still be a string, but at least you 333 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.160 don't have to escape all the quotes and and inlining and all of that. 334 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.880 So so it's a it's very good there as well. You know what's funny 335 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.920 is back when when I was doing VB net and I was excited about VB 336 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.839 VB nett a while ago. It was a while ago, but they came 337 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.720 out with these XML literals where you could find XML right in there, and 338 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.359 we were all like, mean, yeah, sea Sharp, you don't have 339 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.480 that, and C sharp programs like why would I need that that? Oh? 340 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.839 I remember being jealous of VB developers back in the two thousands when when 341 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.160 you still had to work with x molina regular basis that was that was a 342 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:33.039 super nice feature. I think we've opened up a bit more to having margob 343 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:37.440 and quote mixed together in the recent years. I think maybe react sort of 344 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.839 that that the chart with that with DSX right and saying, hey, it's 345 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.000 probably it might not be a bad idea to just mix concerns a bit more, 346 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:49.240 right, Right, It's okay, it's a little bit sharp developers got 347 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:53.319 a little less dogmatic. I think, yeah, yeah, for the better. 348 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:56.759 I think I think so too. Now you're talking about MADS, is 349 00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:03.559 that what you're saying? No, no, no, no, I I 350 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.799 wouldn't blame him for that. I think it's a general in the community, 351 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:12.559 but mass has definitely also the interesting parts of the changes that been to c 352 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:18.599 SHAP for the last ten years or so, where they've gone from. I 353 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.599 remember talking to Annas Heilsberg back when he start just introduced a typescript and I 354 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:27.039 asked that noble annotations where you can say that this might be Noll might not 355 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.680 be there, are we getting that in C sharp And he was like, 356 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:36.440 you know, being a bit secret, sepen say maybe. And the history 357 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:41.759 around that was that originally they didn't want to put something into the language that 358 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:47.359 could where the compiler could come into a situations where it couldn't give a like 359 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.720 a yes or no answer. It should always be right with nobles. You 360 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:56.160 can you might have annull here, but we don't know necessarily in all cases. 361 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.319 That's why we have the bang operator and we have the yeah exactly so 362 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.799 like the way that John Skeek calls it the damn it operator. Yeah, 363 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:10.359 that's damn it. I mean it, trust me, stupid compiler, do 364 00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:14.039 it? Do it? Just do what I say. So the Language group 365 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:19.319 definitely have loosened a bit up and allowed more we are not entire issue and 366 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:23.319 allowed the compilots to actually be wrong in a few instances, and I think 367 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.559 that's the better. Yeah, this is booleyant thinking, right, there's yes 368 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.880 and there's no, but there's no. Maybe, come on, is that? 369 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.880 What's that? What? Maybe? Gentlemen, I need to interrupt remote 370 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:44.640 moment for this very important message and we're back. It's dot net Rocks. 371 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.960 I'm Richard Campbell, that's Carl Franklin. Hey, hey, hey, each 372 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.279 in our respective studios for one studio show before we go back to the in 373 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.359 person live shows at conferences, and we're here with Eagle Hanson talking a bit 374 00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.720 about the latest in B unit and all the goodness. I also wanted to 375 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.759 bring up the whole open source conversation because obviously it's been an ongoing thread for 376 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.519 us the past couple of years. And you, you know, you strike 377 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:12.319 me as a person building leading an open source project that helps you with your 378 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:17.480 work that other people are now depending on as well. I don't imagine there's 379 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:22.480 any commercialization in your future around this at all? Am I wrong? No? 380 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:30.799 Not really no, So I think the whole em Q drama I guess. 381 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.880 Yeah. I really didn't want to jump on that because I felt like 382 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:40.640 everybody, you're only amplifying rage, like it wasn't necessarily a good thing. 383 00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:45.599 Nobody got off pretty quickly, I agree, So I I tried to say 384 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.519 a you know, a laid back approach and not be too aggressive. But 385 00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:52.960 it's hard to you know, be quiet. But I think it was. 386 00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:56.160 It certainly wasn't fun for Daniel, the maintain of IMQ, but I thought 387 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:00.759 it got a lot of interesting conversations to the front in the dot eco system 388 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:06.039 and the open source ecosystem at least. And I also adjusted my thoughts a 389 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:08.640 bit on what it means to have maintainable open source. So one of the 390 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:14.880 things I did realize was that is a surprising imbalance in the relationship between the 391 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.599 consumers of open source and the maintenance open source. True, and I don't 392 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.039 think it applies to all open source models. So we have the corporate open 393 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.279 I don't know if that's the right term, but bear with me. Like 394 00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.640 the corporate open source models from like where people companies like mysour of the Google, 395 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:32.960 Amazon, the Linux Foundation, they hire people that work full time on 396 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:36.640 open source, like the big projects really we know and like that drive a 397 00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:40.440 lot of things that we have thank for granted, like the Linux kernel or 398 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:45.160 the dot net or Java. Y sure exactly. So I assume that is 399 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.000 a business model in it for those big corporations because they are you know, 400 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.519 stock Rhythm. They wouldn't be doing that unless there was something in it for 401 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.000 them. So in that regard, I sort of consider that as somewhat balance 402 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.759 model. The consumers get the safety of knowing that's big company behind the open 403 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.440 source so they can safely take it a penancy on that, and Microsoft and 404 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:08.759 the likes probably get something out of that as well, I think. And 405 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:14.400 then that's the second model, which is sort of maybe where you have open 406 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:18.119 source that is some sort of dual that's a dual license for example, that 407 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:21.680 says to it all that is a company behind it that is setting services. 408 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:26.720 And I think we have examples of in service Bush with hands company and and 409 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:30.839 doing the software a dentity service. That's I have required a lot of success 410 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.680 stories around that where people have had some open source product that made sense to 411 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:42.359 lift up to like create a company around in some way and was obviously we 412 00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:47.240 had those conversations on the show for that matter, and they said our customers 413 00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:49.319 came at us and said, hey, you know, we want to pay 414 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.599 you so that we have certain rights, right exactly, yeah, yeah, 415 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:56.559 So so that again there there is a balance, right, they give money 416 00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.599 and in return they get certain guarantees. Port is a lay and software, 417 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:06.480 right. But the third model is where I see the imbalance. And there 418 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.279 might be four, fourth and fifth models as well, but that is sort 419 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:15.640 of maybe the open source model where a b unit fits into an EMQ also 420 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.400 fits into even though MQ probably has a hundred times the downloads that we do 421 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.839 or throw automapper to that equation if I'm following you, right, yeah, 422 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.720 exactly. And the idea here is that it might be a loan developer that's 423 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:30.519 creating something that is becoming quite popular and being used in many places. MOQ 424 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.160 is an excellent example of that. Like, imagine how many projects, commercial 425 00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:40.839 product project projects that are depending on a MOQ to be able to iterate deploy 426 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.960 a new version because it's part of the testing pipeline. So if for some 427 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.640 reason or another EMOQ ceased to exist or wasn't pushed out anymore or as it 428 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.759 were, people started to think, can I trust this? Can I have 429 00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:56.319 this in my pipeline? Inmo Well, there's lots of millions and millions of 430 00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:04.240 dollars and lines of code invested in EMQ and the I think the when you 431 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.680 think about it, the surprising thing to me is that the imbalance between the 432 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:13.559 consumer and the maintainer here is that it's actually to the It's even though the 433 00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:17.640 consumers are getting em OQ and the likes for free, right, they also 434 00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:23.880 have a huge disadvantage because they have no leverage, that's nothing that is basically 435 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:30.839 forcing them into the maintainer that is, to keep keep maintaining that product. 436 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.519 Yeah, yeah, no, is that great line when they're yelling at the 437 00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.200 maintainer, it's like, would you like me to refund everything? Exactly? 438 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:43.200 Yeah, but I really appreciate what you're saying here, right eagle is and 439 00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.039 I'm sorry interrupt, but it's like, oh, go ahead, Yeah, 440 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:47.640 we are treating all of these projects the same, and they're clearly not. 441 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.720 If micros, you know, you can rage as an issue in the c 442 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.720 sharp you know, GitHub repository and a set of full time employees are going 443 00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:01.720 to read that that that make real salaries and share allocations on all that sort 444 00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.519 of thing, right, or even if you do the same thing in duende 445 00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:13.000 and you're paying customer Like that's another thing. But for Eagle or Jimmy or 446 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:17.279 Daniel, like come on right, yeah, And I like I saw some 447 00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:23.559 people suggest to Daniel instead of you know, trying to bring awareness by you 448 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:27.160 know, you can agree a disagree with this tactic, but basically he was 449 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:29.839 trying to raise a flag and say, hey, I would like to work 450 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:31.799 more on this, but I don't have I don't have the you know, 451 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:36.920 time which is money to actually do that, and I want to you know, 452 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:40.519 keep moving forward with EMOQ, and not of people were suggesting, well, 453 00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:44.000 instead of doing what you're doing, you should in step maybe create a 454 00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:47.079 company, create a dual license and have a proversion. I think that's a 455 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:52.160 problem with that because certain projects like AMOQ and be unif of that matter are 456 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:58.960 they have periods where you really can do you can you can work full time 457 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.799 for a couple of months, maybe even a year on that, but then 458 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:05.880 there is a lot of downtime where it doesn't really make sense to build a 459 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:09.159 company around something like that. And then that's the thing, like I said, 460 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:13.000 you guys probably know that you created companies, right, so you know 461 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:16.679 it's not a real thing to actually have a proper company incorporated with taxes and 462 00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:22.320 selling and vate and you know, sitting across country be making money. Otherwise 463 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.079 it's not worth it. Yeah, there's a there's an overhead to operating all 464 00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:28.559 of that. It's also a different skill set. Like just because you're good 465 00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:32.239 at building testing tools doesn't mean you're good at building testing tool companies. It's 466 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.880 not the same thing. And I can see why somebody like Daniel at least 467 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:43.199 certainly I wouldn't want to try to attend that because it would it's out of 468 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:49.639 my comfort zone. So right now, I think the open source system in 469 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:54.559 open source in general is lacking a way for developers to do what they do 470 00:34:54.639 --> 00:35:01.119 best and then have other people's people, you know, maybe make a platform 471 00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:06.119 that can make it sustainable. If that is a neat I think the best 472 00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:09.840 example we have of that is actually might be the app stole concept that we 473 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:15.480 have for mobile apps, right because then there, you know, basement developer 474 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:19.360 can just put out an app and register his credit card with Apple or Google 475 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.000 and if people actually want to buy, and you know, they they may 476 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:27.679 sort of become the reseller of the software if they want to touch any To 477 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:30.280 minimize the company part of that overhead. You could be a quote unquote soul 478 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:36.719 proprietor and I'm using business terms here and just have it money up here and 479 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:39.840 pay your taxes, but a little ahock a lot simpler. Yeah, So 480 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:44.360 that that would be one way that it could, in theory go, but 481 00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:49.000 I'm not sure that it's a viable option. No, And it's and again, 482 00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:51.239 this is why it keeps coming up on the show, is that And 483 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:57.840 I think you've articulated super well that the tech giant's getting involved increase the sense 484 00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:02.639 of the schism, right and then and now we're surfacing more and more and 485 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:07.400 saying shouldn't we have categories and shouldn't there be a mechanism to support these different 486 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:13.639 models? So I think this is not not done yet, definitely not a 487 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:17.280 finished finished so there are perfect solutions yet. I do want to give a 488 00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:21.840 lot of credit to GitHub, because we've been pushing things with that gid ub 489 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.199 sponsors program, and they've been doing things recently where you as a company, 490 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.960 if you have a giit ub organization, you can go in and say, 491 00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:31.400 give me a list of all the source software I depend on, and you 492 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:35.559 can prioritize those and you can upload a CSV file and say I want to 493 00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:40.519 sponsor all of these, so that lowers the barrier for corporations to come for 494 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:45.119 companies to come in and say give like they can have I don't know, 495 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.079 one hundred dollars or five hundred dollars every month they want to give out, 496 00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:52.000 and they just base that on what they're actually using. There is. Yeah, 497 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.000 so I definitely think that is also another approach that could be that it 498 00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:59.400 may make it that easy, so there's no excuse, like it shouldn't be 499 00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.320 should be a one click like the one click shop button from Amazon, just 500 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:06.599 re sponsoring all those souls you use, right, And we talked about this 501 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:08.480 on the show a while back, and I may have called my friend Martin 502 00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:13.000 Woodward in the meantime and we're talking about exactly that that you know, the 503 00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:19.519 average CFO wants to pay attention to this once a year or once a quarter 504 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:24.000 and no more, and so can getthub roll all that up. Plus I 505 00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:28.239 would throw on top of that that basic hey, what open sources we depend 506 00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:30.760 on. That's bill of material stuff too, right, Like that represents your 507 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:36.760 security exposure, Like these are things that a corporate customer that uses GitHub in 508 00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.159 a meaningful way should be paying for because they're very valuable, and while they're 509 00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:45.760 at it, putting some money into the projects that are important to the company 510 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:51.159 by utilization alone, if nothing by preference, just makes sense, Like it's 511 00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:52.800 not like we can't afford it, and it's not like we don't get value. 512 00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:55.960 What you got to do is reduce the friction. Yeah, at the 513 00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:00.559 end of the day, I think the best way to ensure that the open 514 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:07.760 source software that people are depending on in their software sticks around is I don't 515 00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:10.480 know any any better way than actually, you know, giving the maintainers a 516 00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:14.639 little bit of money. That is, I can say I've been very lucky 517 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.039 to have some sponsors for the years. That it does. Actually, even 518 00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:21.960 though it's not quit your job money, it's it's uh, it's it's a 519 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:28.840 boost some motivation for the things. Yeah, I like that, right, 520 00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:30.920 it's quit your job money is a different ball of wax. But then we 521 00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:36.519 acknowledge you with take your family out to dinner like that, that kind of 522 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:38.280 thing. I like everything about that, or get it yourself a new monitor, 523 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:44.239 right like that? That's respectful and beneficial. Mm hmm, yeah, 524 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:51.159 absolutely all right, So we touched on beat unit uh in dot net eight 525 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:57.039 and that yes, there's a major Blazer update you know, to the architecture, 526 00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:01.000 and now we don't have to have a signal ar connection for anything that 527 00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:06.840 just runs on the server, which is great. But what do you personally 528 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:13.719 think about dot net A in terms of its significance in the whole asp ne 529 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.800 net core ecosystem. Good question. I think I think it's going to have 530 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:29.360 a significant impact on the adoption of Blazer or rather Blazer components, because I 531 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:36.760 do think it is a superior model of using Blazer component instead of rail pages 532 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:40.280 or MVC controllers if you if you want to go really old school to model 533 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:45.840 your application in such a way. So I do think that it will become 534 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:52.400 a gateway drug to many that can actually just use it to create a classic 535 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.320 old static website. Well not static websites, but but but just websites, 536 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:59.119 right, not web applications. But you can use it to actually build websites 537 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:04.800 now, and it's much more intuitive and forgiving development model. And it's not 538 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:07.760 that you you, oh, let's not create a Blazer app. You know, 539 00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.480 we're creating an asp net core app. Oh, and we can we 540 00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:15.760 have this component model that we can use to generate data. Now that just 541 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.920 happens to be called Blazer. Some might even say it looks a bit like 542 00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:25.880 wet forms just in a model or to you, yeah, well the US 543 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.079 easy as Yeah, well, I think wet force and well is a brilliant 544 00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:36.199 technology for its time, right well, and I certainly there's a certain customer 545 00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:42.320 that that familiarity will encourage them sure to tot least look at this. I 546 00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.000 that was one of the other aspects I thought about this is this is another 547 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:49.199 checklist item where you don't know if you want to commit to client or service 548 00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.960 side rendering, and you don't have to decide that's right, and you can 549 00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:57.519 use a combination of both. I am so looking forward to r C two 550 00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:04.519 or just the release in November. RC one kind of has a little speed 551 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:12.559 bomb in it for using you know, client side rendering and auto rendering. 552 00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:17.360 You have to sort of put those things in a separate Razor class library right 553 00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:21.400 now, but that it's only temporary. But I cannot wait. I have 554 00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:24.800 so many websites that I just want to that I just I don't have interactivity, 555 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:30.199 you know, I just want to generate stuff and not give my users 556 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:36.239 the white screen of death when the signal service box. No. But yeah, 557 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:40.360 actually that that was the biggest sort of gotcha with with Blazer Server, 558 00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:45.920 which is also in it off self a fairly good product, especially internal intranet, 559 00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:52.639 not high scale websites. That that kind of grade out. We lost 560 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:57.800 connection counting up to eight right before it gives up. So the only thing 561 00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:04.000 I can really fault when new the model for UH is gonna be a performance. 562 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.760 It is a bit more expensive to basically spin off the whole Blazer renderer 563 00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:16.199 and spin out HTML compared to the moll UH that's list things going on if 564 00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:21.280 you just do a raise of pages or even NBC just spinning out some HTML 565 00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:24.559 right for dot that eighty speed speed speed speed. But this is a particular 566 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:30.320 set of libraries where they're adding functionality, so maybe we don't automatically get faster 567 00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:32.840 all the time. It's really funny that I spun up r C one and 568 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:37.039 I'm messing with it, right, and I'm like, all right, I'm 569 00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:39.159 just gonna do static stuff. And then I just have this little button on 570 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:44.280 blazertrain dot com that sports ascending, right, It's like one button with a 571 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.679 little bit of code and I'm like, oh, geez, now, I 572 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.079 kind of like do a Plazer server or Plaser reb as suddenly or auto. 573 00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:53.440 I can't do that because the current state of it, it's like, nah, 574 00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:57.840 I'm not just want to write some JavaScript? What what am I thinking? 575 00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:00.760 Oh my god, did I just say that? Did I just think 576 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:07.400 that? Well? How you know you can just do you know that that 577 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:09.159 button could just be a link that if you click that it posts back to 578 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.599 the server with you know, corey fs. I know, but you you 579 00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.480 all get into that thinging, Oh, it has to be a stateful thing, 580 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:19.840 right. It actually does, which is a nice thing. But but 581 00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.159 again to the performance point of view, it's not a problem for ninety nine 582 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:27.159 percent of the apps out there. If you're building a new being, you 583 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.360 might not want to do it with Razor rather Blazer component, right, But 584 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:35.800 if you don't have a million you visit us every day, that's probably not 585 00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:40.280 You probably want to prefer maintainability over a slight bombing performance, right. Well, 586 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:44.000 you know, and this really was just a hiccup in the current version. 587 00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:45.840 Right, once it's done, I would have just set you know, 588 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:51.960 render mode to auto, and by the time anybody gets down to flipping that, 589 00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:54.960 you know, sort of sending button. Everything would have been in web 590 00:43:54.960 --> 00:44:01.039 assembly anyway, So it's I just can't wait for it. Yeah, I 591 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:07.199 agree, I think it's going to I suspect there will be a few more 592 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:15.639 customers in my boutique as well now with the unit because it's actually b unit's 593 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:20.400 even more ideal in this scenario because if you're just doing service side rendered stuff, 594 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.960 you don't have a lot of JavaScript in that. And that's the biggest 595 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:27.000 limitation of being Unit compared to something like play right is that it doesn't run 596 00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:29.960 in a browser. So all the JavaScript that you might be calling from your 597 00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:32.960 Blason components, well it stops sort of at the eye at yas run time 598 00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:37.320 interface, and then you have to intercept that and deal with that in b 599 00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:43.119 unit. So but if you're just generating HTML and making a service side application, 600 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.559 you don't have you don't typically have a lot of JavaScript, if any 601 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.159 at all, and then the unit is going to be a really excellent choice 602 00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.960 for testing your components. Yes, so you Gil, is there anything else 603 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:57.760 that you want to talk about before we wrap it up? Yes, Well, 604 00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:01.719 how about we talk about maybe the most controversial new API and dot net 605 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:05.960 eight, and it has even been backports to dot it two well dot net 606 00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:09.840 stand dot two point zero, and that would be the time provider API. 607 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:16.800 So if you don't know what that is, it's basically an abstraction over the 608 00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:22.719 daytime offset get UTC now that we all use in all our code. And 609 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:29.320 it also includes an abstraction over a timers so you know time that think things 610 00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:34.960 that happens con in reoccurrence. And it also allows you to do things with 611 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:40.360 timestamps, right, So it's all about a single abstraction that encompass all of 612 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:46.559 those things. And I thought it was a really interesting API, and that 613 00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:51.199 was designed during dot need eight. It actually started back all the way back 614 00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:55.519 in twenty twenty, and it's a proposal that I've gone i think to three 615 00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:59.719 hundred and fifty plus comments on githob and that issue related to it, and 616 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.440 wow, it was super interesting because there was a lot of objections. So 617 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:09.599 people didn't like the name a time provider. People thought maybe it should do 618 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:15.960 less things. People were throwing you know, single responsibility principle and solid principles 619 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:23.000 into the discussion and and I kind of understand why it like the objections, 620 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.639 So for me, the interesting thing started was actually last year I needed a 621 00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:37.159 way to deal with timers and and day times in some product I was building 622 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:40.320 for customer, and we wanted to basically be able to test that code as 623 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:44.519 a fairly complex state machine kind of a thing that did things, you know, 624 00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:47.519 based on clocks and things like that. So I ended up building something 625 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:52.199 quite similar to time Provider, And you know, as a typical is when 626 00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:54.639 you like to build them solves, you prout an ounswer to the world and 627 00:46:54.679 --> 00:47:00.400 push it to nugad and somebody points at the issue on GitHub and says, 628 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:06.079 have you seen this? And I was like, oh, but it was 629 00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.599 fun. Actually I took a look and I could sort of immediately recognize why 630 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:15.559 it was designed like that, because I, while my design was similar and 631 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:20.280 it wasn't as you know, fought through as the one that the Microsoft team 632 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.440 has proposed, but I could immediately recognize the design and why they came to 633 00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:30.239 it, why it came to be what it is, right, and you 634 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:32.519 know, to sort of in defense of all the people that are that are 635 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:36.480 sort of challenging the design in that gate tob issue, I would probably have 636 00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:38.440 been on their side as well if I hadn't actually spent a month trying to 637 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:42.880 sort of go down that same path of myself. That's so that's such a 638 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:46.599 great statement, like the more I knew, the more I appreciated what problem 639 00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:51.199 they were taking on. So I think why I think this is interesting is 640 00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:55.639 that if you are using time like a time stamp or a daytime officet or 641 00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:59.519 a timer in your application, which I think most of us are, you 642 00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:04.239 probably want to switch to using the time provide our API going forward, and 643 00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:07.239 it is available in seven and six and well all the way to back to 644 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:13.920 dot need framework actually via the dot need standard compatibility. So the key thing 645 00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:17.719 about the time provider and why it isn't a bad design in my mind, 646 00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:23.239 is that it's not an abstraction over just time and date. So we've seen 647 00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:28.639 you probably have written some of those in your code. Basis the iClock interface 648 00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:31.199 that helps get you to see now or you to see now property on it 649 00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:37.400 that would allow you to replace the y clock with a fake or mock during 650 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:43.159 testing. Right, what it is actually a time provider is not just that 651 00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:46.760 it's an abstraction over the flow of time or the progress of time. So 652 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:53.079 to be able to abstract flow of time, you need to start with the 653 00:48:53.119 --> 00:49:00.519 concept of a timer, so can I quish you guys? So a new 654 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.760 time general time timer provider in dot need eight and backport it back is called 655 00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:08.840 eye timer. And what is the promise? Not of that, but in 656 00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:12.920 general, what is the promise of a timer in dot net that it will 657 00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:19.719 fire and lapsed event or an event that you can handle on an interval exactly 658 00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:22.880 until you say stuff. And to be more precise, if you fox sayuple, 659 00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:28.360 create a new timer and say in one second, call my callback, 660 00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:34.800 the promise is that the run time will call that callback in one second or 661 00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.760 later. On This the process crisis, of course, and it never calls, 662 00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:42.880 but it's it's it's it's in one second or later. So if the 663 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:46.280 operating system is doing stuff as busy and you can't get any process or time, 664 00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:49.800 well it might not be in one second, it might be later. 665 00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:55.760 You don't really know. There's no guarantees. So if imagine now that you 666 00:49:55.840 --> 00:50:00.800 create a timer and you want to control that timer, may be doing testing 667 00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:05.440 well to keep that promise. If that timer call back, for example, 668 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:07.920 checks when the timer came back happens, it goes and checks what is the 669 00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:10.760 clock now? Because it might be relevant to it for it to know if 670 00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:14.280 it actually, you know, had to wait one second or it took a 671 00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:16.000 bit longer. Right, So it's quite typical. Actually you would if you 672 00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:19.920 start looking at your code, you will see it's not It's quite often that 673 00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:23.079 after a timer call back happens, you tend to check what the clock is, 674 00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:25.679 or you tend to check a stop watch how much time has elapsed. 675 00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:31.519 Right, So the promise, the reason why it's a sort of abstraction over 676 00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:36.239 the flow of time or the progress of time, is that when the timer 677 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:39.119 happens, the clock that you would get when you call get you to see 678 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:45.079 now should also match the time that has progressed. So that means that the 679 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:52.000 flow of time is tied heavily, a coupled tightly coupled to what the time 680 00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:54.159 is as well. And that is why it makes sense to couple these things 681 00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:59.000 together, the concept of a timer and what the time is right now, 682 00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:04.280 or what the timestamp would give you in terms of if you call get time. 683 00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.079 So so for people not familiar with the time provider, there's a get 684 00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:10.400 uty see now method, there's a great timer method, and there's a good 685 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:15.199 time stamp method, which is basically the fun foundational building blocks. And what 686 00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:22.119 the dot NED team then did, which was brilliantly uh from from insight. 687 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:27.000 From that point of a brilliant insight they had was well, if I as 688 00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:30.599 long as I have a timer, I can now use time providers to control 689 00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.559 things like task dot delay because task do delays. Yes, the timer with 690 00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:37.159 a single recurrent I can use things. It can be compatible with things like 691 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:42.280 the periodic timer type. It can be compatible with cancelation tokens that need to 692 00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.039 cancel after a certain amount of time. It can be compatible with the weight 693 00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:51.239 asan method. So all of those methods from dot NEIT eight and some of 694 00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:54.400 them are being backparders to the dot NED six and lower. Now take the 695 00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:59.719 time providers input as well, so that in your code, if you rely 696 00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:06.199 on on time US in some way, you can inject the time provider in 697 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:09.320 your production code and use that and when you want to test that thing, 698 00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:15.679 you can now instead inject a fake time provider that will allow you to forward 699 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:19.119 time immediately. Eagle, I think you just did it. Better know a 700 00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:30.360 framework. Absolutely no, I can't feel your shoes, you can, but 701 00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:37.719 totally get it. Your explanation was phenomenal. It's it's it's really interesting, 702 00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:44.920 and and so at advice for people listening though, is you can because time 703 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:47.360 provider is an abstracts type. It's not an eye, it's not an interface. 704 00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:50.920 And many people who also advocating let's get get an interface, it's going 705 00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:53.480 to make it easier for us to you know, mark during testing, but 706 00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:57.719 it is. It is just an abstract class and you can actually easily mark 707 00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.000 that using EMO CU or in substitute or whatever you want your favorite thing to 708 00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:06.079 be. But I would highly advise not to do that because unless you're sort 709 00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:12.880 of in the most simple scenarios being able to uphold that I timer promise of 710 00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:15.679 when time moves forward for the time when the callback happens, time for all 711 00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:22.519 the other properties should also be up matching whatever has happened there, that is 712 00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:28.480 a fairly complex thing to configure in a general purpose market framework. And so 713 00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:34.320 Misoft has also built I guess, the official time fake time provider that you 714 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.480 can use during testing, which has a method like advance or get you gc 715 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:44.280 now that allows you to move time forward. And I was I had the 716 00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:50.079 sort of good experience of being able to contribute to that fake time provider with 717 00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:52.639 my you know what, I what I learned by building my own and and 718 00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:57.480 sort of various educases that needed to be handled there. So that was a 719 00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:02.440 fun, was a fun thing to to really do. So as a side 720 00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:07.280 gig from b unit as as well. Awesome. Yeah, so what's next? 721 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:13.039 What's in your inbox? Well, I'll be heading to ndcposal and hopefully 722 00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:19.000 have a beer with you guys or if that's still a thing and doing at 723 00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:23.639 least at yes, oh well yeah, yeah, definitely, And well we 724 00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:27.960 will continue working on V two of b unit me and not my my comments, 725 00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:31.159 and I'll also I also have actually have also had the privilege of doing 726 00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:36.960 a talk at dot dot com and then I'll be at erdav in Sweden Melmbury 727 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:42.280 as well in this year, so conference wise, a fairly full calendar. 728 00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:45.480 And okay, yeah you're you're here, there and everywhere, so all right, 729 00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:50.159 that's me so great. Well we'll see there, We'll see you in 730 00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:54.840 Porto absolutely, and we'll see you, dear listener next time on dot net 731 00:54:55.039 --> 00:55:21.599 rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by 732 00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:27.599 Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically 733 00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:31.599 in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop 734 00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:36.719 dot com. Visit our website at d O T N E t R O 735 00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:42.079 c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, 736 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:45.519 and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded 737 00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:50.480 in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 738 00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:53.159 They keep us in business. Now, go write some code, see 739 00:55:53.199 --> 00:56:04.440 you next time. You got middle and time, like mess home there, 740 00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:06.920 like Texas line resin Hall