Hi, y'all, welcome too, coming out pod. Okay, Queer Root
Shout Out Today is a little, a little dip back in the archives,
but an essential. I would call it shout out to you if your queer
root is Clea Duval as Graham in the movie. But I'm a Cheerleader.
This is a nine late nineties movie. This is a queer classic if you've
never seen But I'm a Cheerleader. Natasha Leona is in it. Clid Deval
plays I would call I would say mask of center character named Graham. It's
a funny take on queer conversion camps. I know that doesn't that doesn't sound
funny, but it's like it's a very funny, campy movie. Rupe Paul
is in it. You try to see it if you haven't seen it,
but yeah, the character of Graham was very notable for our community. Cleativall
famously an actual queer actress, friends with Natasha Leone in real life. It's
a great movie and Grandma's a that's a fox a character and no one actually
gets converted. It's a it's a funny movie. Okay, So y'all,
I am here today with a Rohi Kumar Hi, Rohi, Hi, Welcome.
We've been talking about having a Rohian for a while, so as you
know, if you are a longtime listener, I facilitate a group for the
LA LGBT Center called Her Stories, and Rohi is a long time participant,
what like three years, maybe two, two and a half something, I
think, so close like two. I feel like it feels weird because I'm
so on and off, but I mean I do come back on, so
yeah, pretty long. You are what I would call a regular. You
dip in and out, you have a life, you have activities going on.
But yeah, but you've definitely been i'd say a fixture. But yeah.
So I know Rohie from years in Her Stories, and we've talked about
you coming on the podcast, and we're finally making it happen. And I'm
excited because I don't know a lot about about your story or your I feel
like I know you really well in the sense of like being a participant,
but like we only talk about certain things in Her Stories. We don't like,
you don't really get people's full stories. And the couple of other people
who I've spoken to on the podcast have told me things that I was like
I had no idea, and that's been very cool. Yeah, it's all
about the presence with the group, not the fast as much. Yes,
that's a great point. You get like little glimpses into stuff as it comes
up. But there are like whole ass portions of people's lives that I'm unaware
of. And I'm also excited to have you on because I feel like you're
someone who has like grown or like changed so much in the time and like
in a really like positive dynamic way in the time that I've known you,
which has been just like it's just been very cool. It's always cool to
like see yeah, just how people sort of progress over the years. Thank
you. But yeah, so Rowie, how do you identify? So?
I know the typical answers are like within you know, gender and nationality and
stuff. But I remember there's a YouTube video where someone was asked that on
like I don't know if you know Jubilee, but they yes, They're saying
like honest and quirky. I'm like, I like that. I'm gonna people
have identified as like dog mom, like those things are also identify her.
So I guess I am quirky stubborn, and I get and then the other
the normal ones or air quotes normal ones, I guess like trans them by
enough Polly. Oh see, that's already something I didn't know. I already
didn't know one of those. That's why I like, isn't the buy enough
for Polly? That's the Polly. I don't think I knew that. Yeah,
I mean I kind of. I mean we've talked about me having the
girlfriend. Yeah, especially for long distance. Yeah, like you so I
have this and then I just give up all potential in person everything because I
have that. And it's like and we've I mean I kind of got introduced
to it because of her, because we were talking and it's like, you
know, hey, I have this other person talking to and I was like,
I don't really see a big deal with that. Absolutely, yeah,
So it just seemed like it seemed very organic to just be like, that's
what's happening. I don't even see it more. I feel like it I'm
barely Polly because I've had very little experience with I'm with her and also with
someone else. It was just very like when she's not here, I might
be able to do other things, but totally, yeah, I don't have
enough. I don't know how people have lifespan energy to just go, I'm
going to have a whole relationship and then'll do another thing, like I can
barely like time my shoes sometimes I don't care. I hear you. I
have zero relationships and I'm exhausted all the time, So I am. I
don't know how folks do it, but yeah, I think it's it's definitely
like a temperament thing, and it's so like Polly. There's obviously such a
wide spectrum, but some versions of Polly feel to me like, well,
in like the fifties, that was just called dating, like that was just
like so much more common. It feels like to be dating multiple people before
like engagement a relationship, right yeah, yeah, But now it's like I
feel like we tend to go towards like exclusive quote unquote relationships like a lot
sooner than like that dating around phase feels like truncated nowadays. But also I'm
not in the dating pool, so maybe I could be like totally off.
I mean totally I think that. Oh, Like I don't know too much
about fifties especially, I don't know why. I don't know why I pulled
fifties out of my ass, But that's no what I think. I don't
know, Like I guess another part of my identity is like an immigrant child,
Like I feel like a lot of growing up I don't quite know this,
you know, dating or things like that, even in an American context,
because like my parents, that's most everyone. They weren't an arranged marriage,
but like everyone around was, and they weren't like dating. It was
just kind of like we were talking for seven years and then Dad was like,
you want to get married, and it's like okay. So it's very
like on or off where there isn't this like muddy territory. You're like you're
talking or you're married, and it's like, how does that happen? Yeah?
I yeah, I think my because I feel like I've missed out on
a lot of like experiences growing up with certain things. I feel like it
would be really weird to deprive myself of like, yeah, oh, because
I have this thing, let me stop myself from doing any other thing.
And I guess even just that thought process is more freeing than if I said,
well, I have my girlfriend, I shouldn't try to like consider this
encounter or like, you know, this thing becomes a hookup or whatever,
like it's there are some you know, things that haven't gone well, but
I shouldn't stop myself from exploring. Yeah, yeah, and that Nicole would
always point to that where it's like being Polly doesn't mean like I'm one hundred
percent gonna like go out into it's just the it allows for that possibility and
that opportunity in the same way that like being by doesn't mean you are attracted
to every single person on the planet. It means you have the capacity to
be attracted. So it's not like it's not a requirement, but Polly at
least allows for that chance. And it's worth noting that in terms of long
distance, you two are multi country, right, Like, it's like that's
long long distance. So yeah, there's like long stretches obviously where you're not
gonna be able to see each other because of that distance. So yeah,
that seems like a natural. But see, look, see I already learned
something and we're we're less than ten minutes in. That's why I like doing
this podcast. And I've known you for like years and I didn't know that.
But yeah, so so let's have me learn more things that I don't
know about you, oh, ro hey, in your own words, tell
me what is your coming out store? Yeah, I think it probably started.
I think my earliest memory with being trans was my mom was doing something
and for some reason I had this like fixation on my older sister's like bathing
suit at the time, I don't know, I was like five or six
or something, and I wanted to like try it on really badly, and
I kept and I like looked around for it and like put it on,
and then my mom walked in was like, what are you doing? And
I was like and I think I started crying or something. But that was
like the earliest memory of something. And I asked my mom. She doesn't
seem to remember this at all, which it seems to be a few things
where I'm like this was really impactful to me and I remember it, but
they're just like, what was this? That just seems to be it happens,
you know, And and even talking to parents or other people, it's
like, well, kids just do crazy stuff. They don't you know.
It doesn't always be anything. They'll just like put they'll just eat lipstick,
and it's like they don't want to you know, it doesn't mean much.
So I don't know it was. It was a sign, it was a
thing. I think the fact that you remember it speaks to, yeah,
the significance of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think
I always I remember a lot of times hating the concept of growing up,
and I hated a lot of the gender stuff, like being called handsome.
You put a little boy in a suit and it's like, oh, they're
oh, you look so handsome, You're like grown man, and I'm like,
please don't do that, And I know that would be really painful.
And I think that the most I have I guess my queer root would be
mulan because that is like, yeah, I've even considered getting like a tattoo
from it because it just so it made me cry so much growing up where
I'd hear reflection and I like, I just it. It was such a
recurring thing in my head of like I feel that and I didn't know it
was being trans I do know that there was a lot of times where I'd
be like, the way I am is not reflected in the way people treat
me, and that there's some dichotomy in that. And I don't know if,
like, in a more equal society, what I've even been trans like
because there's some stuff that's just gender roles, right, like yep, if
I was just hey, I seem to be I act more like this or
I don't want to be in this like social situation because you you know,
all the at least when I was growing up, is very like all the
guys go in this corner, all the girls go in this corner, and
you hang out with all the guys, and like I don't get along with
that, and I sure feel like yeah, so that was like kind of
I would try to go to the girl's side and it would just kind of
be like I was ostracized on both ends, and oh gotcha. But it
sounds like you were responding more to like like you're saying the socializing gender roles
aspect of gender than the like physical like there were both were both. There
were both. There were both. I think that I hated when I thought
of growing up and having like all the body stuff like having a beard and
having having like a deeper voice. I think during puberty I really tried to
make my voice not deep, and I ended up with this weird like this
is like it odd like a music technicality thing that I have, like the
high pitched voice but low resonance, so it kind of sounds like you know
how goofy sounds, where it's like, ah, so I feel like that's
a that's kind of I don't I'm not like literally like that, but it
was. That's so interesting. You were like physically trying to fight against like
what your body was. Yeah, in the way that you could. Yeah,
because your voice you kind of have some control over. Unlike, you
can't stop your body from like growing whatever it's going to grow, but your
voice you can at least exercise a little bit of, like, yeah,
autonomy over. I don't think I was very conscious of it, but I
remember getting annoyed when it got deeper, cracked and stuff like that, And
that was it seemed like I was trying to control aspects of that. I've
grow I grew into just being like I had a higher pitch voice than most
guys. But then once I transitioned, I was like, Okay, now
this is how I actually get it to be higher resonance too, and now
hopefully it sounds okay, I'll hear on the recording age yeah well no maybe
no no, no, no, well God, as someone who has to
listen to their voice every goddamn week. It is never I'm never like it
sounds how I want it to sound. So that's a given for anybody.
But yeah, I seeing you in her stories over the years, and especially
like you say, when you'll like pop in after like a month or two
away, like, yeah, the noticeable difference in in your in your vocalizations
and like in the picture voice which has been really cool, which has just
been really cool too observed. So yeah, I think that I've noticed that
a lot of people have different kind of things they latch onto with, what
transition, what aspects of it bother them more or not. Like I think
like I've talked to my sister and she's like, why haven't you gotten on
your name change stuff? And I'm like, it's I mean, it matters,
but it's like the relative effort feels like it doesn't make the huge yeah,
whereas this feels like it mattered to me more. And you know,
So that's like, yeah, I just it's something I've noticed that everyone's a
little different where they're at that. Yeah. No, that is a good
point about what what it what sort of leads the the the push in terms
of because for some people, it's like like you're saying, it's getting that
name change on their license is like such a big thing. And then for
other folks, it's like you're saying, it's like having a voice that they
can listen back to and be like okay, Like so it is, it's
so specific to the individual and sort of what's what's driving the charge. But
yeah, but I made you. I know, we like have now jumped
ahead, so we're gonna go bucked one. You're a kid, so yeah,
so what sort of that feels like? Maybe middle school when it's like
boys are here and girls are here and you're feeling kind of not I mean,
even as I think, I don't know if this is a byproduct of
the Indian immigrants, like community stuff I was a part of, but I
feel like most of my life it was segregated in some way, not entirely.
Like I feel like as young as you know, six or seven,
I was, it was already like either I was clinging to my parents or
it's like, oh, go hang out with the kids. But then the
kids would separate themselves into boys and girls, and the middle school you know,
happened in school too. In school, I feel like there was actually
less of the gender segregation. But when I whenever it was like the Indian
community stuff, there would be yeah, all the boys would hang out together.
So that okay, so what at this time that's still really young.
So at what point, if any, does sexuality or sexual feelings start to
come into it in terms of like attraction, Because it sounds like so gender
stuff is in play since like early childhood, but we as we as like
people don't really start experiencing like like attraction that we know is like like not
quote unquote not the right kind of attraction until we're like a little older and
we have that understanding. So I mean, as a lot of transfeen lesbians
could sympathize with, there's like this notion of it's like he wants you're attracted
to girls, but then it's like, well, I want to be attracted
to girls in the way lesbians are attracted. Yes, it's like a very
specific different thing, and I'm like, I don't know it it's it's like
a I think there was also a lot of I don't know, I felt
very uh jaded with guyness, not only in the trans stuff, but in
just like it was like I was constantly kind of pointed at as like being
creepy or harassing people, and I'm just kind of existing, and I'm like,
well, if I was a girl and then I was around a girl,
it wouldn't be even be a thing. So I think there's a lot
of stuff that's kind of big together for me that it's hard to separate,
like what's trans and what's the gender roles? Like I was depressed for most
of my childhood until like fourteen or fifteen, and so like you see me
now and I'm like uppitta and quirky, and I try to I've been trying
to, you know, be more lively, and probably I see you guys
when I am more lively, But there are lots of times where I'm like,
I don't know. Life's kind of but I think past there was a
point in high school where I do I kind of started turning that around because
I got engaged in the music program and that gave me a lot more purpose.
But there's mental health and stuff kind of it's really muddy, you know,
yeah, absolutely, yeah. In terms of like your friendships at that
time, did those feel like fulfilling to you or were you still having that
thing where it's like I would I want to socialize with girls, but it's
like I'm meant to my closer friends are supposed to make guys or like for
people being raised as male, there's that thing anyway where you're not really like
supposed to have like super close friends anyway, like you don't need that,
like you're a lone wolf or whatever, or like talking like I got raised
that way. I did it, and I don't know, but it does
feel like there's a lot less emphasis on male friendships than female friendships. I
do think. I I do still feel even to this day like very lone
wolf y where I kind of am like I don't know how to go warner
that I don't know how to to sustain those relationships. But yeah, it's
like with male friendships there they exist and they're you're in front of them,
and then sometimes they can be Some of them were good, but I don't
know. I feel like I had If I look back in totality, I
feel like I had very few friends. But I mean the moments where I
did, it's it wasn't all bad, I guess. I don't know,
it's just it's it's hard to know I was so like I guess, like
like what I was saying about being depressed my whole life, like I was
basically suicidal for most of my childhood. I don't think I was. It
was I kind of had the whole Like I remember pretty early on like elementary
school or something, I was like thinking through the process of suicide and then
I thought about writing like a note, and then I was like, oh,
but then my parents would read it and they get really sad. And
then I just decided, like, well, the point of existing is to
not make waves or not hurt other people. And I feel like that was
a big thing for me growing going forward and even with coming out, Like
it's like, oh, but that would make a big issue of things where
there isn't an issue, like like even just like advocating for myself has to
come before thinking about like, oh, this is going to cause them.
Absolutely. I've heard that on the podcast. I've heard that a lot from
first gen kids of immigrant parents, because it's like that I don't know if
this resonates for you, but like that pressure of like the parents sort of
raised the child with the like even if they're not doing it consciously, this
idea of like we made this epic move to this country so you could have
a better life. Keep your fucking head down, like don't like you're saying,
don't make waves, just like assimilate. Like there's like such a And
I've heard a lot of guests speak to like that idea of trying not to
stand out too much because they grew up with this sense of like fit in
with your surroundings. And I'm wondering if that fields at all. I think,
I mean, to some degree, I do know I had a lot
of pressure about while growing up. It's like, you know, I would
get some kind of lecture about like why are your graades so bad? Why
do we even move to this country if you're gonna have bad Like it's not
like it wasn't literally like that all the time, but you know it's not,
I guess with I don't know how much I've talked about this in the
group, but like I have to associate of identity disorder, which makes everything
really hard to like parse and remember properly because it feels like it's basically it's
it's the new version of multiple personality, but it's not hollywooded, so okay,
So like I feel to talk about that alone. I'm not sure.
I under I'm super familiar. Yeah, it's kind of I feel like I've
had a lot less of it over time, and I don't know how much
this is, you know, with trans stuff or whatnot, but it's,
uh, it's essentially like what we used to call multiple personality at the extreme
end, you know, you have like distinct personalities in your head kind of
yeah, buying for control, but a lot of it definitionally leans more towards
just like episodes of dissociation. So you have like moments where you just kind
of turn your brain off and go numb and like air quotes, another person
takes over, Oh okay, and you're it's it's almost like you're kind of
looking at someone autopiloting your body and then you're just like existing. And I've
had a lot of times where there's there's parts of it that are like,
oh, I just like have just giant chunks of memory loss with when I
was growing up where I'm like, I don't remember doing this at all.
But there's also stuff where I remember like hearing voices when I was like nine
or something, and I was like yelling at them to stop, and my
parents were like rushing over and they're like, we're not saying anything. I'm
like, I know you're not, but I and so I talked to my
mom about that too, and she seems to not remember. So I'm like,
I feel like that should be a memorable thing. Yeah, it sounds
like there might be some repression happening on her end in terms of not remembering
any of the things that are the stickier things to deal with. Maybe.
Yeah, no, I'm not trying to throw under the bus, Like no,
I know she has a lot of her own trauma life backstory stuff too,
Like everyone has has something, so I don't want to blame her for
it or anything, but it doesn't seem like it's like so much. Yeah.
I think with when I've gone through therapy, it's hard to know what
aspects are affecting what things. And I don't even know. It seems like
from our current understanding of medicine, it's like, oh, this is usually
affected by some big trauma event, but I don't know what the trauma event
is or if I had one. And it's like, so I'm not even
sure, like is the trans enough, the trans stuff enough to be the
trauma or is that or is that just like it just happened. I'm not
sure, but I know, yeah, being having all those feelings of like
depression and suicide and stuff that make it feel like I don't know, I
kind of just like numbly existed for a long time and was like, well,
it's kind of bad to stop existing that hurts people. But if I
like exist in a way that's like hurtful to people, I can't really do
certain. It's just it just kind of I'm like I have to be at
this particular balance so much for a kid to carrie like, gee, did
were you because we because I you've mentioned therapy several times, which, as
you now, huge fan, I have therapy this week. Ooh it's tomorrow,
I think. Anyway, Sorry, that's either here nor there. The
point is, huge fan of therapy. Did you do express any of this
to your parents to the point where they tried to get you help? Which
I asked because I famously was. I started therapy for obsessed with compulsive disorder
and jermophobia at I think maybe like twelve, like I was young. I
mean I was in middle school when I started going to a child psychologist and
went until early high school. So it was like, my stuff reached a
point where I spoke to my parents about it and they were like, oh,
we gotta get you a professional. And I'm wondering if, like,
did you conceal all of this or did you at any point express it and
did your parents try to get you any kind of mental health help? Okay,
there's there's a lot going on there. Well, first of all,
I mean, just like you learned about me, I didn't know that you
had, like oh yeah, yeah, that does clarify some of your COVID
behaviors. Sure, but also you're allowed I mean, you're allowed to have
feelings about I've always like because you've been on COVID lockdown than anyone I know.
Yeah, and I did an episode about it as well. Yeah,
and that is such a line to walk because it's like it's definitely influenced by
my OCD and germophobia, and I would never try to be like these two
things are fully separate. But at the same time, there are a bunch
of people in my group who don't have that at all and are just like,
we feel the same way because of these facts. So it's like I
feel like I lose credibility when I talk about it, like with my friends
or my parents or whatever, because of my history of those things, and
I'm like, ah, fuck, that's like I'm not gonna pretend that doesn't
play into it and make me like more hyper aware. But it's also like
what I'm saying is still true, so I feel very nicere No, No,
I'm not saying that for you. I'm saying like, that's something that
I struggle with in terms of I feel like I'm not the best messenger to
try to like tell people about COVID because they're like, yeah, but you've
you've never drunk out of somebody else's drinks. So it's like, I'm ah,
it's hard for me to play that role of like gotcha, yeah,
So I try to get other people to do that because I'm like, I
got no credibility. I mean, it's spread the be to know that for
further. Whenever I encounter you in person, I feel like, I,
yeah, no, I've been I've the OCD germophobia stuff for me was from
when I was like a little yeah that that that stuff was early. That
stuff was early, and once I did tell my parents about it because it
got to the point where it was like it was like interfering with my life,
Like I would change and this isn't germophobia, this is OCD. But
I remember like I would change answers on tests because I'd like write the right
answer, and then a voice in my head would be like, if you
don't change that eight two a nine, your parents are gonna die. So
I'd like erase the correct answer and put the wrong answer like, thus fucked
up. And eventually it got to the point where I was doing stuff like
that so much that I like had to tell my pay parents because it was
like my head was too busy, there was too much going on, and
I also am an overachiever. I didn't like getting worse grades. So I
told them, and as soon as they knew, they were like, oh
no, like this is like I think they recognized the severity of it in
a way that maybe even I didn't, and so they like they got me
some help once they knew that. So I'm just wondering, Yeah, yeah,
going back to your question, I guess I don't know that I didn't
express like these all these things directly. I was pretty bad at communicating,
and I felt like there was a lot of I mean, part of it
was feeling like I was, you know, making it difficult for other people.
So I felt like, I mean, if I did go to therapy,
that probably would have been a thing. But there's a lot of I
know that partly. Both my parents were really busy immigrant family. Yeah,
so like there was a lot of stuff growing up where I didn't even have
time to do like uh, like I don't know. I remember where I
had this time where my mom was like, oh, yeah, you have
eggzema, and then it took us like three months before we went to the
doctor to get a prescription for it. Where it's just like I don't know
if they had I mean that's my memory of it. Maybe I'm wrong,
but it's like I don't know if they had a lot of time for it.
I do know that they tried to suss out a lot of things about
me being gay because that was their perception, right, like yeah, feminine
guy who was like, oh I want to try on your heels or oh
I want to like dress in this thing, and they my mom and sister
were like asking throughout my life like do you like guys? And I'm like
that's not really on my mind. I feel like you're standing of gen at
that, like the difference between gender sexual they were just non existent. But
I don't know it's totally fair. I don't know. I think like there
was this weird point where I don't know why my mom never just directly like
got me therapy or our counselor or whatever. But there was some point where
one of my my uncle passed away and I wasn't close to him at all.
But then my mom like told someone at the school to like check in
on me, and they had like a counselor thing. So around like sixteen
is when I start did like a few little like you know, support counselor
things that the school provided, and I talked like, I didn't talk about
the uncle at all. I just talked about like a bunch of other just
anxiety stuff, yeah, stuff there. And then I formally I went to
college and I had a panic attack in the middle of a class. Went
to like an emergency room, thought I had a heart attack, and they
were like, gosh, WAS like, no, that's just you know,
there's nothing wrong with you. You should go to a therapist or something.
And so I kind of just followed through on that on my own that wasn't
really as directly from my parents, and then very slowly over time it was
like unpacking, like I'm anxious all the time and I could I could barely
talk and it was so hard, like I would I would say like two
words and then burst into tears because it was just like this. So there
was just so much happening. Yeah, And at some point, I think
fairly early on, my therapist asked me, like to do a little homework
assignment or not a not a homework. It was just like in the moment
because I struggled so much to even talk without like crying, she was like,
Okay, let's write, like, just write down three things that you
want out of life. And I don't remember what I wrote, but I
I wrote I want to be a girl, and then crossed it out really
heavily, and then I wrote some other stuff. Wow. She kept pestering
me about like what did you cross out? And so near the end of
the session, I had just barely kind of admitted to it and felt so
bad and so guilty, and then she's like and then we kept she it
kind of kept going doing this like peeking in and out of the closet thing
where I like go long stretches of not admitting it, and then she kind
of like she wouldn't bring it up really, but then I kind of like,
you know, mention something about it, or I had like a lot
of times where I wanted to try on girls' clothes. That was a thing
for me a lot, And so I would talk to her about, you
know, just all the other anxiety stuff, and then we just eventually come
back to what are your feelings about the you know, wanting to dress up
this way or wanting to be this way, And she'd be very like,
you know, there's nothing wrong with it, and I'm like, yeah,
there is something that's wrong with it, and I don't. I still I
feel like I have a lot of I don't have an exact root of where
it is or what it is, but like the internalized transphobia of like,
oh, I'm still kind of you know, a guy dressing up and pretending
that root is called society and culture. Yeah, so it's there's there's some
stuff like that. And I mean, even even to this day, I'll
like look in a mirror or look at other trans people and I'm like,
you're just faking it like I don't know, there's it's not good as a
thought, but it is like a thought that comes up, and so yeah,
I think that was That was kind of It was partly that and partly
like like with you know, with media and stuff, it's like the laughing
stock of a lot of you know, jokes and things. To dress up
as a girl. It's just like a thing. And then so I was
like I I did as it seems like a lot of queer people do.
They kind of dip their toes in and then go like, oh, I'm
satisfied now I don't have to do it at all. Yeah, and then
I just yeah, like I would like dress up for a little bit.
Sometimes I do it more secretively. I think my mom kind of learned about
it at some point. I don't remember if I was trying to actively share
it or whatnot, but I I had like gone to stores and tried on
girls clothes and then like I bought a few, wore them in my room
sometimes, and then a month or two passed and I looked at them like
why do I have these? And like throw them away and then I just
do like another year and then I do that again. So I've totally hurt.
I think it was an early episode. I think Kira was was our
guest, but like she talked about like the binging and purging of outfits.
So it's like she'd like buy a bunch of women's clothing and then there'd come
a moment where she'd be like, this is bad. I afterget and she'd
get rid of all of it, and then a few months later the cycle
would happened again and yeah. Yeah, So that that went on a few
times. And I think because I was in college, there were some moments
where it was like very accepted by my peers, and I don't I had
this like conflicted like why is this a big deal in my head when it
seems like it's not in totality a big deal. Like it's it's like I
had a I was a queer ally since a like middle school or high school.
You know, you know the stories. Listen, we need all the
allies we can get. It doesn't matter what what part of their own journey
they're at their Yeah, So like I was, I was a very active
advocate for that. That's awesome. I I don't know. I have this
like vague memory of the first time I learned about gay marriage, and like
it was on some news story and I was like, oh, that's weird.
And then my mom was like, why is that weird? And I
was like, I don't know, it just seems weird. And then she's
like, they're just people who want to get married wou and a girl,
and I'm impressed. Yeah, So I mean that's that's kind of like somehow
up until that point, I had gotten like somewhere, oh that's weird,
but then it seemed like my family was just like, yeah, they're doing
things. So that was you know, the the gay marriage discussions of like
the two thousands whenever that happened. But yeah, like later on at some
point, it's kind of hazy in my mind when it kind of all overlaps
because I would dress up a little bit and then I started occasionally going out
in clothes like that, and oh that's a huge step, I feel.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I went a few times, I like went
to the mall or something like just dressed up like that, like not trying
to do anything, just you know, like walking around. And my mom
learned about it, and she was like kind of weirded out of first,
because I think, you know, it's it's different, and at some point
she's just like she kind of assed it. And by the time I came
out, she's like, I know what this is, but I'll let you,
you know, do your thing, okay. So yeah, I came
out in a funny way. I'm jumping all over the place. Sorry,
no, I'm trying to be sequentious. That's how this stuff happens. Though.
It's like it does jump all over the place, like just naturally,
because then you realize something like oh that back there was an indicator, but
it didn't see yeah, no, this is yeah. So so I basically
just trying to go in order. I had done that several times. I'd
gone out and I had started I had gone to some classes dressed up like
that, and I had like a particular professor whom it was like a feminist
studies class, and she was very cool and all like I dressed up in
a dress and everyone was cool with it. And it seems and I don't
remember why, but like I seemed really happy and upbeat. And then somehow
like that and then the next you know year, I kind of phased back
into like putting it away for a bit and then I think I think I
went again in college and someone came up to me and had asked me like,
like because I was dressed up a different way, and he was just
like we weren't like close, but he was just asked me like, hey,
do you want me to like call you by different pronouns or names or
something? And I'm like, I was kind of confused and I didn't.
I'm like, I'm just dressing up like this and he's like, uh,
He's like, okay, I mean if you want to, you know whatever.
But I think that was actually the first time I was like directly asked
of me where I die. Yeah, I like this guy that's really like
that guy was on the cutting edge. Yeah, So it was just you
know, college is a very interesting time for a lot of people, just
lots of exposure to different mindsets, and so yeah, I think that was
something where I it wasn't like a big thing in the moment, but I
think it seemed to have stuck with me because then I'm like, oh,
maybe this is more than just the dressing up, and like it did you
know there there are like we said earlier, with the gender roles versus the
physical aspects I do have like desires about physical stuff, and I do have
like, oh I wish I grew up this way. But there is a
degree that if you talk to you've talked to trans people, but there's like
some amount of there's some amount that like, oh, ideal society, I
wouldn't care about the existence of booms and I'm sure, no, I'm not
here. Sure maybe I would, I'm not, I'm not. Like there's
also it's it's such an intellectual argument because there's no way we don't live in
that society, so like whether or not, Like we don't live in a
vacuum. So those are maybe fun thought experiments, but at the end of
the day, they don't influence our real life because they're not possible. We
don't live in that society. So it's like so hard, like you're saying
to parse out what is and what isn't. It's all it's all in the
pot. Like like being treated close to the gender role of woman while not
being well being called he him would be like how would you? It feels
like it would be so weird, Like saying I'm she her automatically comes with
a whole bunch of others. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so yeah,
I basically just dipped in and out and and I think it was when
Quarantine hit and I was I was in I was kind of in this like
very guy friend group for a bit. It wasn't like all guys, but
it was just very like it was like you know, guys and their girlfriends
and stuff, but it was like guy oriented, like massive guy energy.
Yeah, guy energy. And for a while I was with them and I
kind of and they were accepting of some like I. There was one time
where we're at a store and I was like trying on the girl's jacket and
I was trying to not make a big deal of him, like, but
it's it's cool jacket. You can wear it as a guy. It's not
a what's it's not weird. But they they didn't make a big deal about
it actually, and when I did eventually come out to them, they were
like, not it wasn't a big it was like totally fine. But but
the thing with I think there was also a lot of like social expectations of
being because it was like this, I was identifying as a guy, thus
treat me like this, But once I identify as a girl, the street
like It's like I couldn't be a guy. I couldn't simultaneously identify as a
guy and be treated more gently, Like because I'm a guy, you have
to like yag me and like push me. It's like, okay, I
guess this is just what it is. And once I was in quarantine,
I was kind of away from them for a while and had my own space,
and I kept talking to my therapist over zoom and stuff, and I
kind of I kind of it hit this weird point where it seems very intellectualized
to say it like this, but it was just like, okay, well,
trans this means I don't fit gender norms, and I don't fit gender
norms, thus I am somewhere on the spectrum of trans. And then I
said that, and I'm like, okay, and that's that's what that must
be. I don't know exactly where, but I know that, like deafly,
I've hit the threshold of the sis, right like that. That's kind
of was like I was just saying it out loud to my therapist and going
back and forth, and I think she was asking me, like, why
don't what makes you not feel like you're trans? And I was like I
don't. It's like you have to be trans enough, like you have to
get some point where now you're trans. And I kept feeling like, oh,
but I don't feel like I need this, like I don't want the
surgery or I don't want this thing, or it's like, oh, that's
that's what it means to be trans. But once I'm like, it's just
whatever, like sis people don't think about having boobs, thus it must be
some trans thing. And now I've learned more about you know, there's the
spectrum and all that. Yes, there's a spectrum. And also that impostor
center feel or whatever you want to call it is such a part of so
many people's queer experience. I just talked about this with last week's guess Carbon,
where she felt weird identifying as PAN until she had been in a relationship
with a woman and it's like, but you're actively attracted to but she but
she still felt like it wasn't valid enough because she had it like bit it
or like that was her threshold. Everyone's threshold is different. Some people's threshold
is like, well, I haven't had sex with any of us, so
like and it's like you can identify his pad like you're actively attracted to other
but but everyone has this like imaginary threat it's not even imaginary. Society sort
of gets on you too about it because especially with transness, a lot of
people are like, well, if you don't fully transition, like you're not
trans like, then what is that You're just like saying you are just like
that's a spectrum, like you're saying it's different for everybody. But but that
pressure is, oh yeah, feel that. I think that is that is
the to do to a degree, like I mean kind of back to that
whole making waves thing of like if I kind of transition and then go back
on it like well when I make a bigger deal than if I And it's
not, like you know, detransitioning exists in like a extraordinarily small margin.
So there was there was those those things. And basically right after I had
that conversation with my therapist from like I guess I'm somewhere on the trans spectrum
and we said that, and then I think like within the week I had
called like, our family is weird. We're like very because my dad's like
a business owner. He does things in a very like business ye way,
we have like family meetings and he'll like have lectures about why we did bad
on the report card, like we labeled things in a very specific way.
And so like I call the family meeting, which is very rare. I've
never done that. So I I because, like my sister wasn't living with
us at the time. She hasn't been in a long time, but like
she she's you know, living on her own. So I'm like, I
want her. I don't want to like say the same thing fifteen times.
Yeah, so I don't want to, like and also it gives kind of
a more pressure to like have an appointment because then you bring everyone, They're
like looking at you, like what do you want to talk about? Like,
because they'll chicken out if I just try to bring it up during dinner.
Yeah, And so then I did it, and it was like very
nerve wracking. And then I you know, I said, like I brought
everyone together, and I'm like, I think I'm trans And there was you
know a lot of back and forth and talk and Mom was like, yeah,
that's that's what I figured it was when you said there's a family meeting,
like there wouldn't really be much else to talk about, And there was
kind of this ambiguity with like that I think on trans and there was like
it gave me out to be like maybe all back out of this, But
over time it's just like I've settled into everyone's like this is what it is,
you know. But yeah, I mean, even building up to before
that initial that coming out point, I think there were a few times where
my little things would like seem odd to I remember my sister had like a
conversation with me where she had seen me like dress up and I had my
nails done one time, and during that conversation, I wasn't dressed up,
but I saw my nails done, and she's like she was kind of weirded
out by it, and she was kind of like asking certain things of like
uh, And I was kind of like, why is it weird? Like
what is it that's making it so just like, well, if you know,
Dad started dressing up, wouldn't that seem like a little off or something?
And I'm like, I mean, I guess because to me what I
said was just like I mean, it might affect his business, but it's
like whatever. So to me, I seem to have gotten to a point
there where it didn't it doesn't seem to affect me that much when it's another
person, but it's a big thing in my head if it's me. But
like, yeah, so, And it's interesting because with the whole gender or
sexuality thing. She came out as by and I have like no memory of
when she came out. It's just at some point, at some point in
high school, she was in college, it came up and I'm like cool,
and then I moved on with my life. I don't remember any of
it. And it feels like it was a really big deal for me coming
out as trans and were there yet with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
and I get it. I mean there's a lot of things. I
feel like once I came out, all of my family they're all very awesome,
and they all kind of did their own little research here and there.
Oh that's great. Yeah, when you don't have to sort of handhold and
they'll like do their own, that's good. I think my mom briefly was
like you know, falling for you know, as as all the there's all
the propaganda going around. There was like that d Transition documentary, and she
shared that with me briefly. Yeah, that's the parent fear thing where it's
like, but what if this happens and it's yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, So I think that's yeah, that's the point where I came out
as a trans. I feel like I didn't have exactly I didn't definite I
haven't really come out as buy or Polly. So if family friends are listening,
congratulations, whatever, I don't. I don't know, it's I feel
like buy stuff. It kind of felt like, well, I didn't change
any attraction towards women when I became trans or identified as I'm being PC towards
myself, so yeah, like it didn't change that. So my mom asked
me, like, where do you feel like with this like sexuality or does
that change anything? And I'm like, I guess i'd say I'm lesbian,
but it feels like there's been more. I feel like this is a pretty
universal thing with trans people actually, where their sexuality changes throughout the course of
transitioning at some point. And I know I'm talking to a lot of guests
who have become again who would start identifying as by once they start transitioning and
it and they're always like kind of surprised by Yeah, I think there's some
aspect of hormones, yeah, might play a factor. I do know.
I have had like a few crushes growing up that I guess retroactively. I
can go like, oh, that was probably a crush on a guy,
but I just thought of like, oh, I really admire him, and
I'm just like he's so cool. My like first high school crush was on
a girl and I was like, really it was a whole bunch of feelings
around that, but like her older brother I also knew, and I was
like, he's also very cute. And then like later I met their older
sister, of like what why is this whole fah my god, you found
your type and it's that particular family. It's like, uh so they all
made me. It's just like, you know, make me feel feeling.
So it seemed to be that's whatever you know when people talk about being pan
and it's like the personality first or whatever that seemed to have been wherever what
I ended up being there because it seemed like they were all kind of around
the same, not like literally the same, but you know, personality or
type of way of thinking. And then I just was like all of them
were attractive, So you know, there's I haven't had that many I haven't
had like basically any experience with guys romantically or sexually. I feel like I've
had thoughts, and that's probably like I said bye enough, like the same
way that I felt like I wasn't trans enough for a long time, like
I'm by enough, Like if the if trans is like past a certain threshold
of that most CIS people don't think X like most straight people don't occasionally think
about this. So I'm just like, eh, I guess that's there.
I don't know if it's gonna be. It seems to kind of be more
in flux, Like I'm very consistently attracted to girls, but guys it seems
to come and go and then like you know, there's a whole complication of
nb's or they mess up all the math equations. Do you remember when you
you sought out her stories? Was it like shortly after the family meeting or
man it was it was it during the pandemic? Still? Yeah? Oh
yeah, it was like during like actual lockdown is my memory of what I
first met you. So that's why I was wondering if it was like shortly
after that sort of coming out that you were like, no, I want
community yeah, I think it was. I think it might have been.
It might have been pretty soon after that. I think there was a period
where I was talking to my therapist and she kind of recommended like maybe that
would help and like having some kind of group and like I've done. I
had a group therapy thing before in college, and it's like, you know,
it's kind of nice to see other people and not feel so much like
because with therapy you kind of talk and you're like, oh, I'm just
I'm the crazy person here, and this like specialist has to come help me.
But it's like we go to a group therapy and it's like we're all
crazy. We're all crazy. And then Laura, the specialists who helped,
I'm also a crazy person. So it's literally the it's running the Ashylah.
So I think it was. It was like maybe six or seven months,
like a most after. I don't I don't think it was. It wasn't
me. It was the media, but I did, like, I you
know, came out kind of dressed up somewhat, and I was looking into
different aspects of transition, Like the voice thing was a big thing I jumped
on and tried to but there wasn't a lot I could do in the quarantine
in terms of like social transition, because you don't. Yeah. Yeah,
so there was some stuff that was like very theoretical or like in my head
where I couldn't even really know. But yeah, I think from what I've
heard, it seems like the quarantine helped a lot of people kind of take
a step. We increased our numbers during quarantine, There's no, there's no
denying it. The queer community like gained a couple percentage points. Yeah,
so it's good to it's kind of weird. There's a lot of people I've
heard from who's you know, when they didn't, you know, have any
big coming out thing. It's like, oh, this was really traumatic,
almost like it really messed up their social life. But for some people,
it's like they gotta step out of the structure, and that's why queer people
created the COVID virus. As I keep saying on my conspiracy theory point,
No, it is fully true. I spoken to so many guests who that
was their experience. It's like once they were able to step out of like
expectations and like all that stuff and just sort of sit more quietly with like
their inner voice and feelings. They were like, oh, oh, I'm
having awareness and in some cases multi step awareness. It's like so yeah,
that definitely yeah. I mean even I think it was before it was it
was a little bit before the quarantine. I was like working with my dad
and he wanted me to like dress up in a suit every day, and
it's so upset, like yeah, it's like that kind of that kind of
pressure just like gets on you and then you step away and you're like,
yep, I know that people you like. For a long time in my
life, everyone's like it seemed like I just didn't like dressing up. But
now it seems like, for the most part, I like dressing up for
like certain occasions, but it just has to be the right kind of dressing
up. And yeah, that was never really like explored enough, and that
all that stuff like you're saying is also so it feels to me at least
more like gender roles than gender because I someone who as far as I know,
I don't like, I feel pretty confident like I'm a CIS woman,
But I get the closest I experienced with like body dysmorphy or anything is when
I have to wear a dress. I'd also feel very uncomfortable if I ever
had to get my nails done. So it's like those things to me make
me feel but that doesn't I don't have that gender confusion. That's like a
gender role thing like I'm finding like a skirt, but a dress for some
reason makes me feel like I don't want to wear a dress, like I
don't want to paint my nails. So it's like I don't know where that
comes from and the difference between gender versus gender roles or like it's all so
confusing. Honestly, Yeah, I think there is a bigger there's a bigger
breath for CIS woman versus this men of like expression for sure, space and
for sure. Yeah, like a lot of I think there are a lot
of girls who are just like I don't like this part or I don't like
that part. Yeah, that was that was something I think like a lot
of times growing up as a guy, when you express certain things, it's
kind of like it some parts of where I was just saying stuff that could
be identified as trains. It could just be like, I don't know,
mildly sexist or almost like we're yeah, oh, girls have it easier when
they do this and it's like, Oh, you don't understand because you're a
guy, and I'm like, well, but you do have it easier,
Like yeah, I would because it's hard. It's all still really muddy.
It's not ever going to like not be muddy, but I feel like it's
extra muddy right now because we have we're like in the gender revolution, not
as opposed to like looking back on it, it's like, I think we're
still very much in it. Yeah, was there any part of the I
feel like I've gone through most of the arc? I guess, like I
mean, I met my girlfriend online and then yeah, we talked, and
then I'm like, oh, you're in the across the pond, as they
say, I'm a big across the pond, you know. So I think
that's that's a still kind of figuring that out in life wise. But she
came over and yeah, family is really great. Everything. She seemed like
to get exponentially happier throughout the trip. So I think that's most of my
story chronologically. If I don't know if there's any holes in it, No,
I think you did. I think you did a great job. I
feel like I feel like we ran the gamut, and like you covered,
you covered a ton of stuff that I totally didn't know about. I mean,
I think the only other aspects like that I didn't talk too much about
a sex like the actual more than welcome to sexuality, and I guess I
mean, yeah, it's kind of weird because it's annoying that I have.
I feel like my libido's gotten really messed up from antidepressants and hormones and stuff.
I don't know. I feel like I've had more because it's like I
don't know, I've been trying to. I'm trying to be more aware of
like that some things can just be more platonic. I feel like there's a
lot of the there's so much like with the whole gender roles thing we talked
about when I was growing up, there's such a big separation between guys and
girls that you kind of make this ideological girl in your head that isn't a
real person. Yeah, it's really hard to like, so now when I
make friends with girls, it feels like my first thought is to jump to
like relationship sex stuff. Sure it's hard to just and inversely, making friends
with guys feels more organic. But then like if I'm like by enough,
It's like sometimes I think about it, but almost feels harder to go there
in my head. So it's like all kind of muddied. But then like
it's like with the sex drive stuff, and like I kind of if it
was higher, I'd be more able to do or like experience whatever those things
I think I've As most queer people, it's like, oh, you missed
out on your you know, growing up childhood, getting to do these kinds
of experiences like having girlfriends or whatever. So I'm like, I don't know,
it feels like I've just passed the point medically where it's going to be
easy for me to experience those things. And I don't know, hookups or
things like that are very realistic, which is annoying, but it also is
kind of giving me space to be like less hyper sexual and more like valuing
platonic things. So I'm trying to take it with a silver lining because it
seems like there's there are some aspects to the way I think of relationships in
this kind of it feels like the end goal is like relationship, and I
don't think of like just having a group of friends. Like it's like the
group of friends is a stepping stone to a relationship, And you know,
I have such a thing about that, about how the hierarchy and how we
hold up relationship as like the highest thing and the pinnacle, and I really
I don't care for that, and I wish society wasn't so and culture wasn't
so focused on everything being a stepping stone to a relationship. Yeah. Yeah,
I think that's something I I don't really know how to do in general.
I don't know, this isn't I don't know if this is like it's
not a specifically queer thing. It's just like a person thing. Yeah,
because yeah, like it is. I think a lot of like AMAP people
probably experience it more where the there is such a lack of like normal friendships.
Yeah that when you do have, like you know, it's like,
oh, this person's interested in me, and it's just it's like it's such
a it's such a weird thing to go from like guy to girl and then
be like complimented about certain things and you're like how did that happen? It's
so it's so isolating being a guy. So I know that that's probably like
a lot of like it like you were saying with your OCD where it's like
some of what I'm saying might be true, but then it's invalidy because I'm
like, oh, I'm trying. I know no, because like it it
informs it, but it's also true for people who don't feel this. So
it's just like it's so it's hard because each person we're all an individual like
stew pot or whatever, and it's like everyone's stewpot is kind of different,
and it doesn't make something less true because you have these other factors that also
influenced it, if that makes sense. It's just the most it's a weird
inversion of America as a melting pot. I know, right, but everyone
is a melting pot within a larger melting pot. It's disgusting. But no,
like I said at the beginning, like in just seeing you over the
years in her stories, like I do feel like you've gotten so much lighter
and happier and your quirkiness is able to show so much more than and like
the thing with anxieties, like I fucking have I take anxiety. Man's like
I've said that before, but it's like, so anxiety can be like an
underlying current, like it is what it is. None of us are supposed
to have cell phones and all these modern things, so anxiety is there.
But I just feel like I've seen you become such a fuller person and you
just I don't know, you just you seem you seem happier, and it's
just really Yeah, I mean I should I thank you. It's just a
statement. Yeah, I know. I'm like, I don't know. I'm
like, it's an observation. I'm trying to think, what's the difference to
observation. I'm overthinking. It's a fine line. What's the difference between gender
roles and gender? It's this question keeps coming up. It's a fine line.
Yeah, I do feel like, yeah, maybe it didn't come off
to listeners as much because I'm like talking about the depressing parts, but yeah,
I do feel I do feel like overall, I have a lot more
purpose in life, and that was something I lacked for most of my life.
ROI do you want Are you on social media? Do you want to
be found there? If listener, do you want to shout out where folks
can find you or do you prefer to be to fly under the radar.
I mean, I have social media I'm bad at it. I guess I've
made a board game. I could plug, yes, plug. This is
the part where you get to plug anything that you like. Yeah, and
you can you want, well, anything that you like that has to do
with you, Like, don't be like Succession is a great show. Like
whether things than are specific to to your life? Yeah, I mean I
don't know. I highly doubt this is that relevant to your to your audience
because like it's not queer. But I made a board game and you can
check it out hyphen rush dot com. Can you wait say that one more
time? Because I spoke over you grad hyphen rush dot com, like with
the dash because I could, yeah, just grad, it's grad Rush game.
I don't know if I'll do I don't know if I'll do some revisions
because it's still kind of there's some unpolished stuff to it. But I mean
maybe I'll maybe I'll come back and do more. I haven't had as much
time. It was very cool. Games are inherently queer also, so I
feel like that counts as queer. There's so many queer gamers, so that
is. I do think there's a there is some kind of strange overlap get
that I think there's a it's the the whole dorkiness shine through. Don't worry
as much about the dorky look absolutely. Yeah, okay, yeah we can
leave it at that. If you don't want to, Yeah, I guess
life recommendations, go go try uh different forms of media because like it's like
I hear people go like, man, there's so few queer shows, and
I'm like, yeah, don't read comic books. Go read comic books.
That's lots of very true and international web series and stuff as well, and
there's a lot more queer stuff. Yeah, like heart Stopper was the big
thing. It started as a comic. Go go read card Stopper. Uh
So that's I guess that's that's how this You wrap up, You do your
little Yeah, now I do, Now I do? Oh? I wish
I had a jingle what if it's the beginning but the cool jingle d end?
But I should write lyrics to it? Now the end? Here here's
my usual end And you can find me at at Laren Flans on Twitter,
learn Underscore Plans on Instagram. The podcast is at coming out Pod. The
hashtag is hashtag coming out pod and hey y'all, I have patrons and I
love them dearly, and this is the part of the jingle where I shout
them out. Shout out to carmel Ka, Simone, Kaya, Amne,
Michelle el Adrie, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran Smiley, Aaron Mitchell,
Diego Hernandez, and Beyonclexa dot com. And then I always say, if
you want to help the pod for zero dollars, a great thing to do
is to rate it five stars on iTunes or Spotify, and that really helps
the algorithm. Oh Rohi, we finally did it. This was a blast.
I'm so glad to know all this, all this extra uh juicy,
behind the scenes stuff about your life. Thank you for coming on, Thank
you for having me. Yeah, I hope it was fleshed out enough.
I feel like I'm going to have as you do with every conversation, you
leave it and go like I missed half of the things that I should have
brought up. But that's the human condition. No, I think I think
we did a great job, awes, So thank you so much, Thank
you all for listening, and I will see you next week. Oh bye.