WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.240 Hi, y'all, welcome too, coming out pod. Okay, Queer Root 2 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:16.039 Shout Out Today is a little, a little dip back in the archives, 3 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:21.719 but an essential. I would call it shout out to you if your queer 4 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:27.640 root is Clea Duval as Graham in the movie. But I'm a Cheerleader. 5 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:34.679 This is a nine late nineties movie. This is a queer classic if you've 6 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:38.799 never seen But I'm a Cheerleader. Natasha Leona is in it. Clid Deval 7 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:43.520 plays I would call I would say mask of center character named Graham. It's 8 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:48.960 a funny take on queer conversion camps. I know that doesn't that doesn't sound 9 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:53.240 funny, but it's like it's a very funny, campy movie. Rupe Paul 10 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:56.640 is in it. You try to see it if you haven't seen it, 11 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.920 but yeah, the character of Graham was very notable for our community. Cleativall 12 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:07.640 famously an actual queer actress, friends with Natasha Leone in real life. It's 13 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:12.760 a great movie and Grandma's a that's a fox a character and no one actually 14 00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:19.000 gets converted. It's a it's a funny movie. Okay, So y'all, 15 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:26.239 I am here today with a Rohi Kumar Hi, Rohi, Hi, Welcome. 16 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:32.120 We've been talking about having a Rohian for a while, so as you 17 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.840 know, if you are a longtime listener, I facilitate a group for the 18 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:40.840 LA LGBT Center called Her Stories, and Rohi is a long time participant, 19 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:45.560 what like three years, maybe two, two and a half something, I 20 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.959 think, so close like two. I feel like it feels weird because I'm 21 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.640 so on and off, but I mean I do come back on, so 22 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:59.079 yeah, pretty long. You are what I would call a regular. You 23 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.120 dip in and out, you have a life, you have activities going on. 24 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:06.799 But yeah, but you've definitely been i'd say a fixture. But yeah. 25 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:12.199 So I know Rohie from years in Her Stories, and we've talked about 26 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.560 you coming on the podcast, and we're finally making it happen. And I'm 27 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:21.439 excited because I don't know a lot about about your story or your I feel 28 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:23.599 like I know you really well in the sense of like being a participant, 29 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.520 but like we only talk about certain things in Her Stories. We don't like, 30 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.240 you don't really get people's full stories. And the couple of other people 31 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:32.919 who I've spoken to on the podcast have told me things that I was like 32 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.120 I had no idea, and that's been very cool. Yeah, it's all 33 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:43.400 about the presence with the group, not the fast as much. Yes, 34 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.639 that's a great point. You get like little glimpses into stuff as it comes 35 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.639 up. But there are like whole ass portions of people's lives that I'm unaware 36 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:53.599 of. And I'm also excited to have you on because I feel like you're 37 00:02:53.680 --> 00:03:00.599 someone who has like grown or like changed so much in the time and like 38 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:06.240 in a really like positive dynamic way in the time that I've known you, 39 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.919 which has been just like it's just been very cool. It's always cool to 40 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:15.879 like see yeah, just how people sort of progress over the years. Thank 41 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:23.599 you. But yeah, so Rowie, how do you identify? So? 42 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:28.120 I know the typical answers are like within you know, gender and nationality and 43 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:32.680 stuff. But I remember there's a YouTube video where someone was asked that on 44 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:38.120 like I don't know if you know Jubilee, but they yes, They're saying 45 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:43.879 like honest and quirky. I'm like, I like that. I'm gonna people 46 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:47.560 have identified as like dog mom, like those things are also identify her. 47 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:57.800 So I guess I am quirky stubborn, and I get and then the other 48 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:06.719 the normal ones or air quotes normal ones, I guess like trans them by 49 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:15.520 enough Polly. Oh see, that's already something I didn't know. I already 50 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.560 didn't know one of those. That's why I like, isn't the buy enough 51 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:23.079 for Polly? That's the Polly. I don't think I knew that. Yeah, 52 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:25.959 I mean I kind of. I mean we've talked about me having the 53 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:33.480 girlfriend. Yeah, especially for long distance. Yeah, like you so I 54 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:40.560 have this and then I just give up all potential in person everything because I 55 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.160 have that. And it's like and we've I mean I kind of got introduced 56 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.240 to it because of her, because we were talking and it's like, you 57 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.720 know, hey, I have this other person talking to and I was like, 58 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:55.040 I don't really see a big deal with that. Absolutely, yeah, 59 00:04:55.079 --> 00:05:00.040 So it just seemed like it seemed very organic to just be like, that's 60 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:04.680 what's happening. I don't even see it more. I feel like it I'm 61 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:10.600 barely Polly because I've had very little experience with I'm with her and also with 62 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:15.800 someone else. It was just very like when she's not here, I might 63 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:17.879 be able to do other things, but totally, yeah, I don't have 64 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:24.959 enough. I don't know how people have lifespan energy to just go, I'm 65 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.079 going to have a whole relationship and then'll do another thing, like I can 66 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:31.639 barely like time my shoes sometimes I don't care. I hear you. I 67 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:36.439 have zero relationships and I'm exhausted all the time, So I am. I 68 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.399 don't know how folks do it, but yeah, I think it's it's definitely 69 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:46.040 like a temperament thing, and it's so like Polly. There's obviously such a 70 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.040 wide spectrum, but some versions of Polly feel to me like, well, 71 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:54.279 in like the fifties, that was just called dating, like that was just 72 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:59.360 like so much more common. It feels like to be dating multiple people before 73 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:04.759 like engagement a relationship, right yeah, yeah, But now it's like I 74 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:12.399 feel like we tend to go towards like exclusive quote unquote relationships like a lot 75 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:18.720 sooner than like that dating around phase feels like truncated nowadays. But also I'm 76 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:23.000 not in the dating pool, so maybe I could be like totally off. 77 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:27.079 I mean totally I think that. Oh, Like I don't know too much 78 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.680 about fifties especially, I don't know why. I don't know why I pulled 79 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.879 fifties out of my ass, But that's no what I think. I don't 80 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:41.680 know, Like I guess another part of my identity is like an immigrant child, 81 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:46.839 Like I feel like a lot of growing up I don't quite know this, 82 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:53.879 you know, dating or things like that, even in an American context, 83 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:58.959 because like my parents, that's most everyone. They weren't an arranged marriage, 84 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:01.040 but like everyone around was, and they weren't like dating. It was 85 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:05.199 just kind of like we were talking for seven years and then Dad was like, 86 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:11.519 you want to get married, and it's like okay. So it's very 87 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:16.519 like on or off where there isn't this like muddy territory. You're like you're 88 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:21.560 talking or you're married, and it's like, how does that happen? Yeah? 89 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:28.720 I yeah, I think my because I feel like I've missed out on 90 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:33.560 a lot of like experiences growing up with certain things. I feel like it 91 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:39.000 would be really weird to deprive myself of like, yeah, oh, because 92 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.439 I have this thing, let me stop myself from doing any other thing. 93 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:47.560 And I guess even just that thought process is more freeing than if I said, 94 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:54.360 well, I have my girlfriend, I shouldn't try to like consider this 95 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.879 encounter or like, you know, this thing becomes a hookup or whatever, 96 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:03.160 like it's there are some you know, things that haven't gone well, but 97 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.680 I shouldn't stop myself from exploring. Yeah, yeah, and that Nicole would 98 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.399 always point to that where it's like being Polly doesn't mean like I'm one hundred 99 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:18.079 percent gonna like go out into it's just the it allows for that possibility and 100 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:22.759 that opportunity in the same way that like being by doesn't mean you are attracted 101 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.680 to every single person on the planet. It means you have the capacity to 102 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:31.360 be attracted. So it's not like it's not a requirement, but Polly at 103 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.080 least allows for that chance. And it's worth noting that in terms of long 104 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.120 distance, you two are multi country, right, Like, it's like that's 105 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.279 long long distance. So yeah, there's like long stretches obviously where you're not 106 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:46.279 gonna be able to see each other because of that distance. So yeah, 107 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.639 that seems like a natural. But see, look, see I already learned 108 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.159 something and we're we're less than ten minutes in. That's why I like doing 109 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:56.759 this podcast. And I've known you for like years and I didn't know that. 110 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:03.320 But yeah, so so let's have me learn more things that I don't 111 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:05.600 know about you, oh, ro hey, in your own words, tell 112 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:15.080 me what is your coming out store? Yeah, I think it probably started. 113 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:24.759 I think my earliest memory with being trans was my mom was doing something 114 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:31.320 and for some reason I had this like fixation on my older sister's like bathing 115 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:33.320 suit at the time, I don't know, I was like five or six 116 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.039 or something, and I wanted to like try it on really badly, and 117 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.440 I kept and I like looked around for it and like put it on, 118 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:45.559 and then my mom walked in was like, what are you doing? And 119 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.279 I was like and I think I started crying or something. But that was 120 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.840 like the earliest memory of something. And I asked my mom. She doesn't 121 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.480 seem to remember this at all, which it seems to be a few things 122 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:01.480 where I'm like this was really impactful to me and I remember it, but 123 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.159 they're just like, what was this? That just seems to be it happens, 124 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:09.720 you know, And and even talking to parents or other people, it's 125 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:13.799 like, well, kids just do crazy stuff. They don't you know. 126 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:18.360 It doesn't always be anything. They'll just like put they'll just eat lipstick, 127 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.120 and it's like they don't want to you know, it doesn't mean much. 128 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.840 So I don't know it was. It was a sign, it was a 129 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:28.879 thing. I think the fact that you remember it speaks to, yeah, 130 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.799 the significance of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think 131 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:39.919 I always I remember a lot of times hating the concept of growing up, 132 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:46.039 and I hated a lot of the gender stuff, like being called handsome. 133 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:48.000 You put a little boy in a suit and it's like, oh, they're 134 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:52.159 oh, you look so handsome, You're like grown man, and I'm like, 135 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:56.519 please don't do that, And I know that would be really painful. 136 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:03.320 And I think that the most I have I guess my queer root would be 137 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:09.919 mulan because that is like, yeah, I've even considered getting like a tattoo 138 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:15.960 from it because it just so it made me cry so much growing up where 139 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:20.320 I'd hear reflection and I like, I just it. It was such a 140 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:24.919 recurring thing in my head of like I feel that and I didn't know it 141 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.759 was being trans I do know that there was a lot of times where I'd 142 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:33.960 be like, the way I am is not reflected in the way people treat 143 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.200 me, and that there's some dichotomy in that. And I don't know if, 144 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:41.440 like, in a more equal society, what I've even been trans like 145 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:48.919 because there's some stuff that's just gender roles, right, like yep, if 146 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.000 I was just hey, I seem to be I act more like this or 147 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.840 I don't want to be in this like social situation because you you know, 148 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:01.679 all the at least when I was growing up, is very like all the 149 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.840 guys go in this corner, all the girls go in this corner, and 150 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.440 you hang out with all the guys, and like I don't get along with 151 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:13.519 that, and I sure feel like yeah, so that was like kind of 152 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:16.840 I would try to go to the girl's side and it would just kind of 153 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:22.279 be like I was ostracized on both ends, and oh gotcha. But it 154 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:28.879 sounds like you were responding more to like like you're saying the socializing gender roles 155 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:37.200 aspect of gender than the like physical like there were both were both. There 156 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.960 were both. There were both. I think that I hated when I thought 157 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.519 of growing up and having like all the body stuff like having a beard and 158 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:54.240 having having like a deeper voice. I think during puberty I really tried to 159 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.600 make my voice not deep, and I ended up with this weird like this 160 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:03.679 is like it odd like a music technicality thing that I have, like the 161 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.120 high pitched voice but low resonance, so it kind of sounds like you know 162 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:11.720 how goofy sounds, where it's like, ah, so I feel like that's 163 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.960 a that's kind of I don't I'm not like literally like that, but it 164 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:22.399 was. That's so interesting. You were like physically trying to fight against like 165 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.320 what your body was. Yeah, in the way that you could. Yeah, 166 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:30.200 because your voice you kind of have some control over. Unlike, you 167 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.159 can't stop your body from like growing whatever it's going to grow, but your 168 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.679 voice you can at least exercise a little bit of, like, yeah, 169 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:41.799 autonomy over. I don't think I was very conscious of it, but I 170 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:46.120 remember getting annoyed when it got deeper, cracked and stuff like that, And 171 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.399 that was it seemed like I was trying to control aspects of that. I've 172 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.759 grow I grew into just being like I had a higher pitch voice than most 173 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.960 guys. But then once I transitioned, I was like, Okay, now 174 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:05.240 this is how I actually get it to be higher resonance too, and now 175 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:09.519 hopefully it sounds okay, I'll hear on the recording age yeah well no maybe 176 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.039 no no, no, no, well God, as someone who has to 177 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:15.360 listen to their voice every goddamn week. It is never I'm never like it 178 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.799 sounds how I want it to sound. So that's a given for anybody. 179 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:24.080 But yeah, I seeing you in her stories over the years, and especially 180 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.759 like you say, when you'll like pop in after like a month or two 181 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.519 away, like, yeah, the noticeable difference in in your in your vocalizations 182 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.159 and like in the picture voice which has been really cool, which has just 183 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.000 been really cool too observed. So yeah, I think that I've noticed that 184 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:43.600 a lot of people have different kind of things they latch onto with, what 185 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:50.200 transition, what aspects of it bother them more or not. Like I think 186 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:52.559 like I've talked to my sister and she's like, why haven't you gotten on 187 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.919 your name change stuff? And I'm like, it's I mean, it matters, 188 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:01.559 but it's like the relative effort feels like it doesn't make the huge yeah, 189 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.919 whereas this feels like it mattered to me more. And you know, 190 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:11.360 So that's like, yeah, I just it's something I've noticed that everyone's a 191 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:16.360 little different where they're at that. Yeah. No, that is a good 192 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:24.039 point about what what it what sort of leads the the the push in terms 193 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.480 of because for some people, it's like like you're saying, it's getting that 194 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:31.159 name change on their license is like such a big thing. And then for 195 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.480 other folks, it's like you're saying, it's like having a voice that they 196 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.399 can listen back to and be like okay, Like so it is, it's 197 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:43.960 so specific to the individual and sort of what's what's driving the charge. But 198 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.399 yeah, but I made you. I know, we like have now jumped 199 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.840 ahead, so we're gonna go bucked one. You're a kid, so yeah, 200 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:56.879 so what sort of that feels like? Maybe middle school when it's like 201 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:02.320 boys are here and girls are here and you're feeling kind of not I mean, 202 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.919 even as I think, I don't know if this is a byproduct of 203 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:10.240 the Indian immigrants, like community stuff I was a part of, but I 204 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:15.320 feel like most of my life it was segregated in some way, not entirely. 205 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:21.120 Like I feel like as young as you know, six or seven, 206 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:25.559 I was, it was already like either I was clinging to my parents or 207 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:26.840 it's like, oh, go hang out with the kids. But then the 208 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:33.519 kids would separate themselves into boys and girls, and the middle school you know, 209 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:38.080 happened in school too. In school, I feel like there was actually 210 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.080 less of the gender segregation. But when I whenever it was like the Indian 211 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:48.440 community stuff, there would be yeah, all the boys would hang out together. 212 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:55.480 So that okay, so what at this time that's still really young. 213 00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:03.480 So at what point, if any, does sexuality or sexual feelings start to 214 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.640 come into it in terms of like attraction, Because it sounds like so gender 215 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:14.160 stuff is in play since like early childhood, but we as we as like 216 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:21.799 people don't really start experiencing like like attraction that we know is like like not 217 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.920 quote unquote not the right kind of attraction until we're like a little older and 218 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:32.759 we have that understanding. So I mean, as a lot of transfeen lesbians 219 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:38.400 could sympathize with, there's like this notion of it's like he wants you're attracted 220 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.519 to girls, but then it's like, well, I want to be attracted 221 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.519 to girls in the way lesbians are attracted. Yes, it's like a very 222 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:48.200 specific different thing, and I'm like, I don't know it it's it's like 223 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:53.079 a I think there was also a lot of I don't know, I felt 224 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:59.880 very uh jaded with guyness, not only in the trans stuff, but in 225 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.440 just like it was like I was constantly kind of pointed at as like being 226 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:08.200 creepy or harassing people, and I'm just kind of existing, and I'm like, 227 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:11.759 well, if I was a girl and then I was around a girl, 228 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.720 it wouldn't be even be a thing. So I think there's a lot 229 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:21.119 of stuff that's kind of big together for me that it's hard to separate, 230 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:26.720 like what's trans and what's the gender roles? Like I was depressed for most 231 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:32.039 of my childhood until like fourteen or fifteen, and so like you see me 232 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:37.079 now and I'm like uppitta and quirky, and I try to I've been trying 233 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.400 to, you know, be more lively, and probably I see you guys 234 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:42.200 when I am more lively, But there are lots of times where I'm like, 235 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.920 I don't know. Life's kind of but I think past there was a 236 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:55.599 point in high school where I do I kind of started turning that around because 237 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.559 I got engaged in the music program and that gave me a lot more purpose. 238 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:04.359 But there's mental health and stuff kind of it's really muddy, you know, 239 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:11.400 yeah, absolutely, yeah. In terms of like your friendships at that 240 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:17.519 time, did those feel like fulfilling to you or were you still having that 241 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:22.839 thing where it's like I would I want to socialize with girls, but it's 242 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.039 like I'm meant to my closer friends are supposed to make guys or like for 243 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:32.079 people being raised as male, there's that thing anyway where you're not really like 244 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:34.200 supposed to have like super close friends anyway, like you don't need that, 245 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:38.279 like you're a lone wolf or whatever, or like talking like I got raised 246 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:41.960 that way. I did it, and I don't know, but it does 247 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:48.160 feel like there's a lot less emphasis on male friendships than female friendships. I 248 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:55.440 do think. I I do still feel even to this day like very lone 249 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:00.319 wolf y where I kind of am like I don't know how to go warner 250 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:06.799 that I don't know how to to sustain those relationships. But yeah, it's 251 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.680 like with male friendships there they exist and they're you're in front of them, 252 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.799 and then sometimes they can be Some of them were good, but I don't 253 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.880 know. I feel like I had If I look back in totality, I 254 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.079 feel like I had very few friends. But I mean the moments where I 255 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:26.279 did, it's it wasn't all bad, I guess. I don't know, 256 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:33.720 it's just it's it's hard to know I was so like I guess, like 257 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:36.400 like what I was saying about being depressed my whole life, like I was 258 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:45.319 basically suicidal for most of my childhood. I don't think I was. It 259 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:51.559 was I kind of had the whole Like I remember pretty early on like elementary 260 00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:56.079 school or something, I was like thinking through the process of suicide and then 261 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.640 I thought about writing like a note, and then I was like, oh, 262 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.920 but then my parents would read it and they get really sad. And 263 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.160 then I just decided, like, well, the point of existing is to 264 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:12.480 not make waves or not hurt other people. And I feel like that was 265 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:18.640 a big thing for me growing going forward and even with coming out, Like 266 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.720 it's like, oh, but that would make a big issue of things where 267 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:27.319 there isn't an issue, like like even just like advocating for myself has to 268 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:32.200 come before thinking about like, oh, this is going to cause them. 269 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:37.559 Absolutely. I've heard that on the podcast. I've heard that a lot from 270 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.880 first gen kids of immigrant parents, because it's like that I don't know if 271 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:47.839 this resonates for you, but like that pressure of like the parents sort of 272 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.440 raised the child with the like even if they're not doing it consciously, this 273 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.960 idea of like we made this epic move to this country so you could have 274 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.640 a better life. Keep your fucking head down, like don't like you're saying, 275 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:07.160 don't make waves, just like assimilate. Like there's like such a And 276 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:14.519 I've heard a lot of guests speak to like that idea of trying not to 277 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:18.960 stand out too much because they grew up with this sense of like fit in 278 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:22.680 with your surroundings. And I'm wondering if that fields at all. I think, 279 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.119 I mean, to some degree, I do know I had a lot 280 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:30.960 of pressure about while growing up. It's like, you know, I would 281 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.279 get some kind of lecture about like why are your graades so bad? Why 282 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.799 do we even move to this country if you're gonna have bad Like it's not 283 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:42.000 like it wasn't literally like that all the time, but you know it's not, 284 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:49.400 I guess with I don't know how much I've talked about this in the 285 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:55.039 group, but like I have to associate of identity disorder, which makes everything 286 00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:03.920 really hard to like parse and remember properly because it feels like it's basically it's 287 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:12.359 it's the new version of multiple personality, but it's not hollywooded, so okay, 288 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:17.839 So like I feel to talk about that alone. I'm not sure. 289 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:23.279 I under I'm super familiar. Yeah, it's kind of I feel like I've 290 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.720 had a lot less of it over time, and I don't know how much 291 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.880 this is, you know, with trans stuff or whatnot, but it's, 292 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:37.960 uh, it's essentially like what we used to call multiple personality at the extreme 293 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.880 end, you know, you have like distinct personalities in your head kind of 294 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:47.200 yeah, buying for control, but a lot of it definitionally leans more towards 295 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:52.519 just like episodes of dissociation. So you have like moments where you just kind 296 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.559 of turn your brain off and go numb and like air quotes, another person 297 00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:02.519 takes over, Oh okay, and you're it's it's almost like you're kind of 298 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:07.519 looking at someone autopiloting your body and then you're just like existing. And I've 299 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:12.359 had a lot of times where there's there's parts of it that are like, 300 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.720 oh, I just like have just giant chunks of memory loss with when I 301 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:22.880 was growing up where I'm like, I don't remember doing this at all. 302 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.920 But there's also stuff where I remember like hearing voices when I was like nine 303 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:33.880 or something, and I was like yelling at them to stop, and my 304 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.000 parents were like rushing over and they're like, we're not saying anything. I'm 305 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:41.599 like, I know you're not, but I and so I talked to my 306 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.160 mom about that too, and she seems to not remember. So I'm like, 307 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.640 I feel like that should be a memorable thing. Yeah, it sounds 308 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:53.039 like there might be some repression happening on her end in terms of not remembering 309 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:57.160 any of the things that are the stickier things to deal with. Maybe. 310 00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:00.880 Yeah, no, I'm not trying to throw under the bus, Like no, 311 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:06.640 I know she has a lot of her own trauma life backstory stuff too, 312 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:11.359 Like everyone has has something, so I don't want to blame her for 313 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:19.359 it or anything, but it doesn't seem like it's like so much. Yeah. 314 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:25.680 I think with when I've gone through therapy, it's hard to know what 315 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:30.640 aspects are affecting what things. And I don't even know. It seems like 316 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:34.440 from our current understanding of medicine, it's like, oh, this is usually 317 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:40.119 affected by some big trauma event, but I don't know what the trauma event 318 00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:44.240 is or if I had one. And it's like, so I'm not even 319 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:51.119 sure, like is the trans enough, the trans stuff enough to be the 320 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:56.640 trauma or is that or is that just like it just happened. I'm not 321 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:02.599 sure, but I know, yeah, being having all those feelings of like 322 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:07.400 depression and suicide and stuff that make it feel like I don't know, I 323 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:12.400 kind of just like numbly existed for a long time and was like, well, 324 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:17.680 it's kind of bad to stop existing that hurts people. But if I 325 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:21.960 like exist in a way that's like hurtful to people, I can't really do 326 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:25.799 certain. It's just it just kind of I'm like I have to be at 327 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:30.400 this particular balance so much for a kid to carrie like, gee, did 328 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:37.039 were you because we because I you've mentioned therapy several times, which, as 329 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.960 you now, huge fan, I have therapy this week. Ooh it's tomorrow, 330 00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.000 I think. Anyway, Sorry, that's either here nor there. The 331 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:51.200 point is, huge fan of therapy. Did you do express any of this 332 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:55.559 to your parents to the point where they tried to get you help? Which 333 00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:02.680 I asked because I famously was. I started therapy for obsessed with compulsive disorder 334 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:07.720 and jermophobia at I think maybe like twelve, like I was young. I 335 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:11.720 mean I was in middle school when I started going to a child psychologist and 336 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.000 went until early high school. So it was like, my stuff reached a 337 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:21.079 point where I spoke to my parents about it and they were like, oh, 338 00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:23.519 we gotta get you a professional. And I'm wondering if, like, 339 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:27.359 did you conceal all of this or did you at any point express it and 340 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:33.200 did your parents try to get you any kind of mental health help? Okay, 341 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.839 there's there's a lot going on there. Well, first of all, 342 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.960 I mean, just like you learned about me, I didn't know that you 343 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.359 had, like oh yeah, yeah, that does clarify some of your COVID 344 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.759 behaviors. Sure, but also you're allowed I mean, you're allowed to have 345 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:56.079 feelings about I've always like because you've been on COVID lockdown than anyone I know. 346 00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:57.920 Yeah, and I did an episode about it as well. Yeah, 347 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:03.519 and that is such a line to walk because it's like it's definitely influenced by 348 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.359 my OCD and germophobia, and I would never try to be like these two 349 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.759 things are fully separate. But at the same time, there are a bunch 350 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.799 of people in my group who don't have that at all and are just like, 351 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.119 we feel the same way because of these facts. So it's like I 352 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.079 feel like I lose credibility when I talk about it, like with my friends 353 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.880 or my parents or whatever, because of my history of those things, and 354 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:30.039 I'm like, ah, fuck, that's like I'm not gonna pretend that doesn't 355 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.960 play into it and make me like more hyper aware. But it's also like 356 00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:41.440 what I'm saying is still true, so I feel very nicere No, No, 357 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:44.759 I'm not saying that for you. I'm saying like, that's something that 358 00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:48.119 I struggle with in terms of I feel like I'm not the best messenger to 359 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.640 try to like tell people about COVID because they're like, yeah, but you've 360 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.960 you've never drunk out of somebody else's drinks. So it's like, I'm ah, 361 00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:02.960 it's hard for me to play that role of like gotcha, yeah, 362 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.160 So I try to get other people to do that because I'm like, I 363 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:11.240 got no credibility. I mean, it's spread the be to know that for 364 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.319 further. Whenever I encounter you in person, I feel like, I, 365 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.920 yeah, no, I've been I've the OCD germophobia stuff for me was from 366 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:26.359 when I was like a little yeah that that that stuff was early. That 367 00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:29.599 stuff was early, and once I did tell my parents about it because it 368 00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:33.359 got to the point where it was like it was like interfering with my life, 369 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:36.440 Like I would change and this isn't germophobia, this is OCD. But 370 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:41.559 I remember like I would change answers on tests because I'd like write the right 371 00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:44.720 answer, and then a voice in my head would be like, if you 372 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:48.240 don't change that eight two a nine, your parents are gonna die. So 373 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:53.200 I'd like erase the correct answer and put the wrong answer like, thus fucked 374 00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.759 up. And eventually it got to the point where I was doing stuff like 375 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.720 that so much that I like had to tell my pay parents because it was 376 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.400 like my head was too busy, there was too much going on, and 377 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:08.000 I also am an overachiever. I didn't like getting worse grades. So I 378 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.400 told them, and as soon as they knew, they were like, oh 379 00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:15.920 no, like this is like I think they recognized the severity of it in 380 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:19.759 a way that maybe even I didn't, and so they like they got me 381 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.960 some help once they knew that. So I'm just wondering, Yeah, yeah, 382 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.440 going back to your question, I guess I don't know that I didn't 383 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:37.680 express like these all these things directly. I was pretty bad at communicating, 384 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.240 and I felt like there was a lot of I mean, part of it 385 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:45.480 was feeling like I was, you know, making it difficult for other people. 386 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.480 So I felt like, I mean, if I did go to therapy, 387 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:55.359 that probably would have been a thing. But there's a lot of I 388 00:30:55.400 --> 00:31:00.039 know that partly. Both my parents were really busy immigrant family. Yeah, 389 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:04.559 so like there was a lot of stuff growing up where I didn't even have 390 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:11.200 time to do like uh, like I don't know. I remember where I 391 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:12.599 had this time where my mom was like, oh, yeah, you have 392 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.920 eggzema, and then it took us like three months before we went to the 393 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:21.000 doctor to get a prescription for it. Where it's just like I don't know 394 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:25.599 if they had I mean that's my memory of it. Maybe I'm wrong, 395 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:30.319 but it's like I don't know if they had a lot of time for it. 396 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.400 I do know that they tried to suss out a lot of things about 397 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:38.799 me being gay because that was their perception, right, like yeah, feminine 398 00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:44.519 guy who was like, oh I want to try on your heels or oh 399 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.039 I want to like dress in this thing, and they my mom and sister 400 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:52.920 were like asking throughout my life like do you like guys? And I'm like 401 00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:00.480 that's not really on my mind. I feel like you're standing of gen at 402 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:04.279 that, like the difference between gender sexual they were just non existent. But 403 00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:09.960 I don't know it's totally fair. I don't know. I think like there 404 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:15.359 was this weird point where I don't know why my mom never just directly like 405 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.240 got me therapy or our counselor or whatever. But there was some point where 406 00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:24.079 one of my my uncle passed away and I wasn't close to him at all. 407 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:30.680 But then my mom like told someone at the school to like check in 408 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:35.079 on me, and they had like a counselor thing. So around like sixteen 409 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:43.480 is when I start did like a few little like you know, support counselor 410 00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:49.799 things that the school provided, and I talked like, I didn't talk about 411 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.680 the uncle at all. I just talked about like a bunch of other just 412 00:32:52.920 --> 00:33:00.240 anxiety stuff, yeah, stuff there. And then I formally I went to 413 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:07.880 college and I had a panic attack in the middle of a class. Went 414 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.960 to like an emergency room, thought I had a heart attack, and they 415 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:14.400 were like, gosh, WAS like, no, that's just you know, 416 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:17.920 there's nothing wrong with you. You should go to a therapist or something. 417 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:24.119 And so I kind of just followed through on that on my own that wasn't 418 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:30.799 really as directly from my parents, and then very slowly over time it was 419 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.440 like unpacking, like I'm anxious all the time and I could I could barely 420 00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:37.960 talk and it was so hard, like I would I would say like two 421 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.920 words and then burst into tears because it was just like this. So there 422 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.480 was just so much happening. Yeah, And at some point, I think 423 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:52.920 fairly early on, my therapist asked me, like to do a little homework 424 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.279 assignment or not a not a homework. It was just like in the moment 425 00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:00.680 because I struggled so much to even talk without like crying, she was like, 426 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:02.599 Okay, let's write, like, just write down three things that you 427 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:07.639 want out of life. And I don't remember what I wrote, but I 428 00:34:07.639 --> 00:34:10.400 I wrote I want to be a girl, and then crossed it out really 429 00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:15.440 heavily, and then I wrote some other stuff. Wow. She kept pestering 430 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:22.519 me about like what did you cross out? And so near the end of 431 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:27.320 the session, I had just barely kind of admitted to it and felt so 432 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:31.000 bad and so guilty, and then she's like and then we kept she it 433 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:35.480 kind of kept going doing this like peeking in and out of the closet thing 434 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:40.519 where I like go long stretches of not admitting it, and then she kind 435 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.840 of like she wouldn't bring it up really, but then I kind of like, 436 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:51.480 you know, mention something about it, or I had like a lot 437 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.719 of times where I wanted to try on girls' clothes. That was a thing 438 00:34:53.880 --> 00:35:01.079 for me a lot, And so I would talk to her about, you 439 00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:07.920 know, just all the other anxiety stuff, and then we just eventually come 440 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:14.639 back to what are your feelings about the you know, wanting to dress up 441 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.719 this way or wanting to be this way, And she'd be very like, 442 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:20.880 you know, there's nothing wrong with it, and I'm like, yeah, 443 00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.320 there is something that's wrong with it, and I don't. I still I 444 00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:30.239 feel like I have a lot of I don't have an exact root of where 445 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:32.960 it is or what it is, but like the internalized transphobia of like, 446 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:37.679 oh, I'm still kind of you know, a guy dressing up and pretending 447 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:45.360 that root is called society and culture. Yeah, so it's there's there's some 448 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:49.079 stuff like that. And I mean, even even to this day, I'll 449 00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.800 like look in a mirror or look at other trans people and I'm like, 450 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:55.679 you're just faking it like I don't know, there's it's not good as a 451 00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:59.960 thought, but it is like a thought that comes up, and so yeah, 452 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:04.280 I think that was That was kind of It was partly that and partly 453 00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:07.960 like like with you know, with media and stuff, it's like the laughing 454 00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:12.639 stock of a lot of you know, jokes and things. To dress up 455 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:15.639 as a girl. It's just like a thing. And then so I was 456 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:21.920 like I I did as it seems like a lot of queer people do. 457 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.960 They kind of dip their toes in and then go like, oh, I'm 458 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:30.199 satisfied now I don't have to do it at all. Yeah, and then 459 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:35.639 I just yeah, like I would like dress up for a little bit. 460 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:42.000 Sometimes I do it more secretively. I think my mom kind of learned about 461 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:44.679 it at some point. I don't remember if I was trying to actively share 462 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:52.360 it or whatnot, but I I had like gone to stores and tried on 463 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:57.719 girls clothes and then like I bought a few, wore them in my room 464 00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:01.039 sometimes, and then a month or two passed and I looked at them like 465 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:05.719 why do I have these? And like throw them away and then I just 466 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.880 do like another year and then I do that again. So I've totally hurt. 467 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.199 I think it was an early episode. I think Kira was was our 468 00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:20.800 guest, but like she talked about like the binging and purging of outfits. 469 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.960 So it's like she'd like buy a bunch of women's clothing and then there'd come 470 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.039 a moment where she'd be like, this is bad. I afterget and she'd 471 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.000 get rid of all of it, and then a few months later the cycle 472 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.039 would happened again and yeah. Yeah, So that that went on a few 473 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.360 times. And I think because I was in college, there were some moments 474 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:43.320 where it was like very accepted by my peers, and I don't I had 475 00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:46.280 this like conflicted like why is this a big deal in my head when it 476 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:52.920 seems like it's not in totality a big deal. Like it's it's like I 477 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:59.639 had a I was a queer ally since a like middle school or high school. 478 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:04.800 You know, you know the stories. Listen, we need all the 479 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.400 allies we can get. It doesn't matter what what part of their own journey 480 00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:14.760 they're at their Yeah, So like I was, I was a very active 481 00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:24.400 advocate for that. That's awesome. I I don't know. I have this 482 00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:30.639 like vague memory of the first time I learned about gay marriage, and like 483 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:36.480 it was on some news story and I was like, oh, that's weird. 484 00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:39.400 And then my mom was like, why is that weird? And I 485 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:43.840 was like, I don't know, it just seems weird. And then she's 486 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.079 like, they're just people who want to get married wou and a girl, 487 00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:54.679 and I'm impressed. Yeah, So I mean that's that's kind of like somehow 488 00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:59.840 up until that point, I had gotten like somewhere, oh that's weird, 489 00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:04.119 but then it seemed like my family was just like, yeah, they're doing 490 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:10.320 things. So that was you know, the the gay marriage discussions of like 491 00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:16.880 the two thousands whenever that happened. But yeah, like later on at some 492 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:22.920 point, it's kind of hazy in my mind when it kind of all overlaps 493 00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:29.199 because I would dress up a little bit and then I started occasionally going out 494 00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:31.880 in clothes like that, and oh that's a huge step, I feel. 495 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.239 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I went a few times, I like went 496 00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:38.320 to the mall or something like just dressed up like that, like not trying 497 00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:45.320 to do anything, just you know, like walking around. And my mom 498 00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:49.800 learned about it, and she was like kind of weirded out of first, 499 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:55.440 because I think, you know, it's it's different, and at some point 500 00:39:55.480 --> 00:40:01.039 she's just like she kind of assed it. And by the time I came 501 00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:04.960 out, she's like, I know what this is, but I'll let you, 502 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.960 you know, do your thing, okay. So yeah, I came 503 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.559 out in a funny way. I'm jumping all over the place. Sorry, 504 00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:17.159 no, I'm trying to be sequentious. That's how this stuff happens. Though. 505 00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:22.679 It's like it does jump all over the place, like just naturally, 506 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.679 because then you realize something like oh that back there was an indicator, but 507 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:31.079 it didn't see yeah, no, this is yeah. So so I basically 508 00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:37.239 just trying to go in order. I had done that several times. I'd 509 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:44.119 gone out and I had started I had gone to some classes dressed up like 510 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:51.840 that, and I had like a particular professor whom it was like a feminist 511 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:55.880 studies class, and she was very cool and all like I dressed up in 512 00:40:55.960 --> 00:41:02.960 a dress and everyone was cool with it. And it seems and I don't 513 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.400 remember why, but like I seemed really happy and upbeat. And then somehow 514 00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:15.519 like that and then the next you know year, I kind of phased back 515 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:23.440 into like putting it away for a bit and then I think I think I 516 00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:32.280 went again in college and someone came up to me and had asked me like, 517 00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.079 like because I was dressed up a different way, and he was just 518 00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:39.320 like we weren't like close, but he was just asked me like, hey, 519 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:44.639 do you want me to like call you by different pronouns or names or 520 00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:46.760 something? And I'm like, I was kind of confused and I didn't. 521 00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:52.840 I'm like, I'm just dressing up like this and he's like, uh, 522 00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:55.719 He's like, okay, I mean if you want to, you know whatever. 523 00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:01.840 But I think that was actually the first time I was like directly asked 524 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:07.159 of me where I die. Yeah, I like this guy that's really like 525 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:12.199 that guy was on the cutting edge. Yeah, So it was just you 526 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.800 know, college is a very interesting time for a lot of people, just 527 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:22.480 lots of exposure to different mindsets, and so yeah, I think that was 528 00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:28.719 something where I it wasn't like a big thing in the moment, but I 529 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.400 think it seemed to have stuck with me because then I'm like, oh, 530 00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:37.280 maybe this is more than just the dressing up, and like it did you 531 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:39.400 know there there are like we said earlier, with the gender roles versus the 532 00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:44.679 physical aspects I do have like desires about physical stuff, and I do have 533 00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:49.679 like, oh I wish I grew up this way. But there is a 534 00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:53.360 degree that if you talk to you've talked to trans people, but there's like 535 00:42:53.480 --> 00:43:00.280 some amount of there's some amount that like, oh, ideal society, I 536 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:06.840 wouldn't care about the existence of booms and I'm sure, no, I'm not 537 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.440 here. Sure maybe I would, I'm not, I'm not. Like there's 538 00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:15.119 also it's it's such an intellectual argument because there's no way we don't live in 539 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:17.360 that society, so like whether or not, Like we don't live in a 540 00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:21.719 vacuum. So those are maybe fun thought experiments, but at the end of 541 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:25.480 the day, they don't influence our real life because they're not possible. We 542 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:29.360 don't live in that society. So it's like so hard, like you're saying 543 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:34.079 to parse out what is and what isn't. It's all it's all in the 544 00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:39.559 pot. Like like being treated close to the gender role of woman while not 545 00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:44.920 being well being called he him would be like how would you? It feels 546 00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:49.000 like it would be so weird, Like saying I'm she her automatically comes with 547 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:57.280 a whole bunch of others. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so yeah, 548 00:43:57.320 --> 00:44:02.800 I basically just dipped in and out and and I think it was when 549 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:09.400 Quarantine hit and I was I was in I was kind of in this like 550 00:44:09.639 --> 00:44:15.119 very guy friend group for a bit. It wasn't like all guys, but 551 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.079 it was just very like it was like you know, guys and their girlfriends 552 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:23.440 and stuff, but it was like guy oriented, like massive guy energy. 553 00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:30.519 Yeah, guy energy. And for a while I was with them and I 554 00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:36.079 kind of and they were accepting of some like I. There was one time 555 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:39.320 where we're at a store and I was like trying on the girl's jacket and 556 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.880 I was trying to not make a big deal of him, like, but 557 00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:45.559 it's it's cool jacket. You can wear it as a guy. It's not 558 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:51.280 a what's it's not weird. But they they didn't make a big deal about 559 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:53.760 it actually, and when I did eventually come out to them, they were 560 00:44:53.800 --> 00:45:00.039 like, not it wasn't a big it was like totally fine. But but 561 00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:04.840 the thing with I think there was also a lot of like social expectations of 562 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:08.119 being because it was like this, I was identifying as a guy, thus 563 00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:12.599 treat me like this, But once I identify as a girl, the street 564 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:15.840 like It's like I couldn't be a guy. I couldn't simultaneously identify as a 565 00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:21.599 guy and be treated more gently, Like because I'm a guy, you have 566 00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:25.280 to like yag me and like push me. It's like, okay, I 567 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:30.440 guess this is just what it is. And once I was in quarantine, 568 00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:32.360 I was kind of away from them for a while and had my own space, 569 00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:37.199 and I kept talking to my therapist over zoom and stuff, and I 570 00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:45.920 kind of I kind of it hit this weird point where it seems very intellectualized 571 00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:49.800 to say it like this, but it was just like, okay, well, 572 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:54.280 trans this means I don't fit gender norms, and I don't fit gender 573 00:45:54.360 --> 00:46:00.119 norms, thus I am somewhere on the spectrum of trans. And then I 574 00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:04.360 said that, and I'm like, okay, and that's that's what that must 575 00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:07.559 be. I don't know exactly where, but I know that, like deafly, 576 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:14.079 I've hit the threshold of the sis, right like that. That's kind 577 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:17.199 of was like I was just saying it out loud to my therapist and going 578 00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:20.840 back and forth, and I think she was asking me, like, why 579 00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:23.400 don't what makes you not feel like you're trans? And I was like I 580 00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:27.800 don't. It's like you have to be trans enough, like you have to 581 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:31.800 get some point where now you're trans. And I kept feeling like, oh, 582 00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:35.519 but I don't feel like I need this, like I don't want the 583 00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:38.920 surgery or I don't want this thing, or it's like, oh, that's 584 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:44.920 that's what it means to be trans. But once I'm like, it's just 585 00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:51.719 whatever, like sis people don't think about having boobs, thus it must be 586 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:54.719 some trans thing. And now I've learned more about you know, there's the 587 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:59.440 spectrum and all that. Yes, there's a spectrum. And also that impostor 588 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:01.960 center feel or whatever you want to call it is such a part of so 589 00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:07.079 many people's queer experience. I just talked about this with last week's guess Carbon, 590 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:15.199 where she felt weird identifying as PAN until she had been in a relationship 591 00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:19.559 with a woman and it's like, but you're actively attracted to but she but 592 00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:25.320 she still felt like it wasn't valid enough because she had it like bit it 593 00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:30.159 or like that was her threshold. Everyone's threshold is different. Some people's threshold 594 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:31.039 is like, well, I haven't had sex with any of us, so 595 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:36.760 like and it's like you can identify his pad like you're actively attracted to other 596 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:42.400 but but everyone has this like imaginary threat it's not even imaginary. Society sort 597 00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:45.880 of gets on you too about it because especially with transness, a lot of 598 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.440 people are like, well, if you don't fully transition, like you're not 599 00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.599 trans like, then what is that You're just like saying you are just like 600 00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:57.519 that's a spectrum, like you're saying it's different for everybody. But but that 601 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:01.079 pressure is, oh yeah, feel that. I think that is that is 602 00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:05.719 the to do to a degree, like I mean kind of back to that 603 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:10.559 whole making waves thing of like if I kind of transition and then go back 604 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:15.960 on it like well when I make a bigger deal than if I And it's 605 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:21.960 not, like you know, detransitioning exists in like a extraordinarily small margin. 606 00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:27.679 So there was there was those those things. And basically right after I had 607 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:32.159 that conversation with my therapist from like I guess I'm somewhere on the trans spectrum 608 00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:38.920 and we said that, and then I think like within the week I had 609 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:45.000 called like, our family is weird. We're like very because my dad's like 610 00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:49.320 a business owner. He does things in a very like business ye way, 611 00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.960 we have like family meetings and he'll like have lectures about why we did bad 612 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:57.199 on the report card, like we labeled things in a very specific way. 613 00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:00.800 And so like I call the family meeting, which is very rare. I've 614 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:05.920 never done that. So I I because, like my sister wasn't living with 615 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:09.559 us at the time. She hasn't been in a long time, but like 616 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:13.199 she she's you know, living on her own. So I'm like, I 617 00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.480 want her. I don't want to like say the same thing fifteen times. 618 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:20.280 Yeah, so I don't want to, like and also it gives kind of 619 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:23.840 a more pressure to like have an appointment because then you bring everyone, They're 620 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:27.360 like looking at you, like what do you want to talk about? Like, 621 00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:30.679 because they'll chicken out if I just try to bring it up during dinner. 622 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:34.280 Yeah, And so then I did it, and it was like very 623 00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:40.800 nerve wracking. And then I you know, I said, like I brought 624 00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:46.440 everyone together, and I'm like, I think I'm trans And there was you 625 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:50.320 know a lot of back and forth and talk and Mom was like, yeah, 626 00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:53.960 that's that's what I figured it was when you said there's a family meeting, 627 00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:00.119 like there wouldn't really be much else to talk about, And there was 628 00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:05.480 kind of this ambiguity with like that I think on trans and there was like 629 00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:08.159 it gave me out to be like maybe all back out of this, But 630 00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:13.519 over time it's just like I've settled into everyone's like this is what it is, 631 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:20.159 you know. But yeah, I mean, even building up to before 632 00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:25.800 that initial that coming out point, I think there were a few times where 633 00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:34.880 my little things would like seem odd to I remember my sister had like a 634 00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:40.280 conversation with me where she had seen me like dress up and I had my 635 00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:45.880 nails done one time, and during that conversation, I wasn't dressed up, 636 00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:50.519 but I saw my nails done, and she's like she was kind of weirded 637 00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:52.719 out by it, and she was kind of like asking certain things of like 638 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:58.519 uh, And I was kind of like, why is it weird? Like 639 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:01.039 what is it that's making it so just like, well, if you know, 640 00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:07.239 Dad started dressing up, wouldn't that seem like a little off or something? 641 00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:10.159 And I'm like, I mean, I guess because to me what I 642 00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:14.239 said was just like I mean, it might affect his business, but it's 643 00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.760 like whatever. So to me, I seem to have gotten to a point 644 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:21.719 there where it didn't it doesn't seem to affect me that much when it's another 645 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:25.000 person, but it's a big thing in my head if it's me. But 646 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:30.119 like, yeah, so, And it's interesting because with the whole gender or 647 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:36.039 sexuality thing. She came out as by and I have like no memory of 648 00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:38.960 when she came out. It's just at some point, at some point in 649 00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:45.280 high school, she was in college, it came up and I'm like cool, 650 00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:47.360 and then I moved on with my life. I don't remember any of 651 00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:52.480 it. And it feels like it was a really big deal for me coming 652 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:59.920 out as trans and were there yet with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 653 00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:04.360 and I get it. I mean there's a lot of things. I 654 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:08.639 feel like once I came out, all of my family they're all very awesome, 655 00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:14.320 and they all kind of did their own little research here and there. 656 00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:16.800 Oh that's great. Yeah, when you don't have to sort of handhold and 657 00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:22.039 they'll like do their own, that's good. I think my mom briefly was 658 00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:27.480 like you know, falling for you know, as as all the there's all 659 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.199 the propaganda going around. There was like that d Transition documentary, and she 660 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:36.480 shared that with me briefly. Yeah, that's the parent fear thing where it's 661 00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.880 like, but what if this happens and it's yeah, yeah, yeah, 662 00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:46.320 yeah, So I think that's yeah, that's the point where I came out 663 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:54.840 as a trans. I feel like I didn't have exactly I didn't definite I 664 00:52:55.239 --> 00:53:00.920 haven't really come out as buy or Polly. So if family friends are listening, 665 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:07.920 congratulations, whatever, I don't. I don't know, it's I feel 666 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:15.199 like buy stuff. It kind of felt like, well, I didn't change 667 00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:23.679 any attraction towards women when I became trans or identified as I'm being PC towards 668 00:53:23.719 --> 00:53:34.960 myself, so yeah, like it didn't change that. So my mom asked 669 00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:38.440 me, like, where do you feel like with this like sexuality or does 670 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:42.840 that change anything? And I'm like, I guess i'd say I'm lesbian, 671 00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:49.039 but it feels like there's been more. I feel like this is a pretty 672 00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:53.039 universal thing with trans people actually, where their sexuality changes throughout the course of 673 00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:59.559 transitioning at some point. And I know I'm talking to a lot of guests 674 00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:07.440 who have become again who would start identifying as by once they start transitioning and 675 00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:12.280 it and they're always like kind of surprised by Yeah, I think there's some 676 00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:17.599 aspect of hormones, yeah, might play a factor. I do know. 677 00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:23.719 I have had like a few crushes growing up that I guess retroactively. I 678 00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:27.000 can go like, oh, that was probably a crush on a guy, 679 00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:30.159 but I just thought of like, oh, I really admire him, and 680 00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:37.360 I'm just like he's so cool. My like first high school crush was on 681 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:39.800 a girl and I was like, really it was a whole bunch of feelings 682 00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:45.079 around that, but like her older brother I also knew, and I was 683 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:52.239 like, he's also very cute. And then like later I met their older 684 00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:54.719 sister, of like what why is this whole fah my god, you found 685 00:54:54.760 --> 00:55:07.719 your type and it's that particular family. It's like, uh so they all 686 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:12.639 made me. It's just like, you know, make me feel feeling. 687 00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:15.679 So it seemed to be that's whatever you know when people talk about being pan 688 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:21.480 and it's like the personality first or whatever that seemed to have been wherever what 689 00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:25.280 I ended up being there because it seemed like they were all kind of around 690 00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:30.440 the same, not like literally the same, but you know, personality or 691 00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:36.599 type of way of thinking. And then I just was like all of them 692 00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:45.239 were attractive, So you know, there's I haven't had that many I haven't 693 00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:52.639 had like basically any experience with guys romantically or sexually. I feel like I've 694 00:55:52.679 --> 00:56:00.320 had thoughts, and that's probably like I said bye enough, like the same 695 00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:02.199 way that I felt like I wasn't trans enough for a long time, like 696 00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:07.840 I'm by enough, Like if the if trans is like past a certain threshold 697 00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:15.079 of that most CIS people don't think X like most straight people don't occasionally think 698 00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:17.760 about this. So I'm just like, eh, I guess that's there. 699 00:56:19.960 --> 00:56:22.920 I don't know if it's gonna be. It seems to kind of be more 700 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:29.159 in flux, Like I'm very consistently attracted to girls, but guys it seems 701 00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:32.119 to come and go and then like you know, there's a whole complication of 702 00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:39.440 nb's or they mess up all the math equations. Do you remember when you 703 00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:46.320 you sought out her stories? Was it like shortly after the family meeting or 704 00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:54.679 man it was it was it during the pandemic? Still? Yeah? Oh 705 00:56:54.760 --> 00:57:00.320 yeah, it was like during like actual lockdown is my memory of what I 706 00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:02.360 first met you. So that's why I was wondering if it was like shortly 707 00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:06.719 after that sort of coming out that you were like, no, I want 708 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:13.480 community yeah, I think it was. I think it might have been. 709 00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:21.840 It might have been pretty soon after that. I think there was a period 710 00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:28.719 where I was talking to my therapist and she kind of recommended like maybe that 711 00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:32.199 would help and like having some kind of group and like I've done. I 712 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:37.360 had a group therapy thing before in college, and it's like, you know, 713 00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:40.840 it's kind of nice to see other people and not feel so much like 714 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.880 because with therapy you kind of talk and you're like, oh, I'm just 715 00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:51.159 I'm the crazy person here, and this like specialist has to come help me. 716 00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:53.400 But it's like we go to a group therapy and it's like we're all 717 00:57:53.400 --> 00:58:02.119 crazy. We're all crazy. And then Laura, the specialists who helped, 718 00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:09.519 I'm also a crazy person. So it's literally the it's running the Ashylah. 719 00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:15.159 So I think it was. It was like maybe six or seven months, 720 00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:19.039 like a most after. I don't I don't think it was. It wasn't 721 00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:23.519 me. It was the media, but I did, like, I you 722 00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:30.159 know, came out kind of dressed up somewhat, and I was looking into 723 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:34.000 different aspects of transition, Like the voice thing was a big thing I jumped 724 00:58:34.039 --> 00:58:39.559 on and tried to but there wasn't a lot I could do in the quarantine 725 00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:45.599 in terms of like social transition, because you don't. Yeah. Yeah, 726 00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:51.079 so there was some stuff that was like very theoretical or like in my head 727 00:58:51.079 --> 00:58:54.360 where I couldn't even really know. But yeah, I think from what I've 728 00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:58.119 heard, it seems like the quarantine helped a lot of people kind of take 729 00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:02.039 a step. We increased our numbers during quarantine, There's no, there's no 730 00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:07.039 denying it. The queer community like gained a couple percentage points. Yeah, 731 00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:12.320 so it's good to it's kind of weird. There's a lot of people I've 732 00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:15.840 heard from who's you know, when they didn't, you know, have any 733 00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:19.119 big coming out thing. It's like, oh, this was really traumatic, 734 00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:22.039 almost like it really messed up their social life. But for some people, 735 00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:30.199 it's like they gotta step out of the structure, and that's why queer people 736 00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:35.039 created the COVID virus. As I keep saying on my conspiracy theory point, 737 00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:44.679 No, it is fully true. I spoken to so many guests who that 738 00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:50.320 was their experience. It's like once they were able to step out of like 739 00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:54.360 expectations and like all that stuff and just sort of sit more quietly with like 740 00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:59.639 their inner voice and feelings. They were like, oh, oh, I'm 741 00:59:59.679 --> 01:00:04.599 having awareness and in some cases multi step awareness. It's like so yeah, 742 01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:10.320 that definitely yeah. I mean even I think it was before it was it 743 01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:15.079 was a little bit before the quarantine. I was like working with my dad 744 01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:16.760 and he wanted me to like dress up in a suit every day, and 745 01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:25.920 it's so upset, like yeah, it's like that kind of that kind of 746 01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.239 pressure just like gets on you and then you step away and you're like, 747 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.159 yep, I know that people you like. For a long time in my 748 01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:37.760 life, everyone's like it seemed like I just didn't like dressing up. But 749 01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:42.519 now it seems like, for the most part, I like dressing up for 750 01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:45.119 like certain occasions, but it just has to be the right kind of dressing 751 01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:51.199 up. And yeah, that was never really like explored enough, and that 752 01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:55.760 all that stuff like you're saying is also so it feels to me at least 753 01:00:55.760 --> 01:01:00.519 more like gender roles than gender because I someone who as far as I know, 754 01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:05.039 I don't like, I feel pretty confident like I'm a CIS woman, 755 01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:09.039 But I get the closest I experienced with like body dysmorphy or anything is when 756 01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:13.800 I have to wear a dress. I'd also feel very uncomfortable if I ever 757 01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:19.079 had to get my nails done. So it's like those things to me make 758 01:01:19.239 --> 01:01:22.480 me feel but that doesn't I don't have that gender confusion. That's like a 759 01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:27.800 gender role thing like I'm finding like a skirt, but a dress for some 760 01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:30.480 reason makes me feel like I don't want to wear a dress, like I 761 01:01:30.519 --> 01:01:32.199 don't want to paint my nails. So it's like I don't know where that 762 01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:37.599 comes from and the difference between gender versus gender roles or like it's all so 763 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:43.840 confusing. Honestly, Yeah, I think there is a bigger there's a bigger 764 01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:52.559 breath for CIS woman versus this men of like expression for sure, space and 765 01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:58.519 for sure. Yeah, like a lot of I think there are a lot 766 01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:00.760 of girls who are just like I don't like this part or I don't like 767 01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:04.480 that part. Yeah, that was that was something I think like a lot 768 01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:08.079 of times growing up as a guy, when you express certain things, it's 769 01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:15.400 kind of like it some parts of where I was just saying stuff that could 770 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:20.199 be identified as trains. It could just be like, I don't know, 771 01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:23.719 mildly sexist or almost like we're yeah, oh, girls have it easier when 772 01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:27.880 they do this and it's like, Oh, you don't understand because you're a 773 01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:30.679 guy, and I'm like, well, but you do have it easier, 774 01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:36.239 Like yeah, I would because it's hard. It's all still really muddy. 775 01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:37.960 It's not ever going to like not be muddy, but I feel like it's 776 01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:43.760 extra muddy right now because we have we're like in the gender revolution, not 777 01:02:43.880 --> 01:02:45.920 as opposed to like looking back on it, it's like, I think we're 778 01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:52.639 still very much in it. Yeah, was there any part of the I 779 01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:57.599 feel like I've gone through most of the arc? I guess, like I 780 01:02:57.639 --> 01:03:01.719 mean, I met my girlfriend online and then yeah, we talked, and 781 01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:06.880 then I'm like, oh, you're in the across the pond, as they 782 01:03:06.920 --> 01:03:12.320 say, I'm a big across the pond, you know. So I think 783 01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:16.679 that's that's a still kind of figuring that out in life wise. But she 784 01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:22.639 came over and yeah, family is really great. Everything. She seemed like 785 01:03:22.239 --> 01:03:30.199 to get exponentially happier throughout the trip. So I think that's most of my 786 01:03:30.519 --> 01:03:35.559 story chronologically. If I don't know if there's any holes in it, No, 787 01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:37.960 I think you did. I think you did a great job. I 788 01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:42.400 feel like I feel like we ran the gamut, and like you covered, 789 01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:46.719 you covered a ton of stuff that I totally didn't know about. I mean, 790 01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:52.159 I think the only other aspects like that I didn't talk too much about 791 01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:59.639 a sex like the actual more than welcome to sexuality, and I guess I 792 01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:02.960 mean, yeah, it's kind of weird because it's annoying that I have. 793 01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:12.199 I feel like my libido's gotten really messed up from antidepressants and hormones and stuff. 794 01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:20.079 I don't know. I feel like I've had more because it's like I 795 01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:27.960 don't know, I've been trying to. I'm trying to be more aware of 796 01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:31.639 like that some things can just be more platonic. I feel like there's a 797 01:04:31.639 --> 01:04:40.119 lot of the there's so much like with the whole gender roles thing we talked 798 01:04:40.159 --> 01:04:45.079 about when I was growing up, there's such a big separation between guys and 799 01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:53.039 girls that you kind of make this ideological girl in your head that isn't a 800 01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:56.480 real person. Yeah, it's really hard to like, so now when I 801 01:04:56.599 --> 01:05:00.480 make friends with girls, it feels like my first thought is to jump to 802 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:08.360 like relationship sex stuff. Sure it's hard to just and inversely, making friends 803 01:05:08.360 --> 01:05:12.920 with guys feels more organic. But then like if I'm like by enough, 804 01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:15.920 It's like sometimes I think about it, but almost feels harder to go there 805 01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:21.920 in my head. So it's like all kind of muddied. But then like 806 01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:26.719 it's like with the sex drive stuff, and like I kind of if it 807 01:05:26.760 --> 01:05:33.400 was higher, I'd be more able to do or like experience whatever those things 808 01:05:33.679 --> 01:05:36.880 I think I've As most queer people, it's like, oh, you missed 809 01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:42.480 out on your you know, growing up childhood, getting to do these kinds 810 01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:47.920 of experiences like having girlfriends or whatever. So I'm like, I don't know, 811 01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:53.000 it feels like I've just passed the point medically where it's going to be 812 01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:59.000 easy for me to experience those things. And I don't know, hookups or 813 01:05:59.719 --> 01:06:04.639 things like that are very realistic, which is annoying, but it also is 814 01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:14.400 kind of giving me space to be like less hyper sexual and more like valuing 815 01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:18.320 platonic things. So I'm trying to take it with a silver lining because it 816 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:28.320 seems like there's there are some aspects to the way I think of relationships in 817 01:06:29.000 --> 01:06:34.840 this kind of it feels like the end goal is like relationship, and I 818 01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:40.000 don't think of like just having a group of friends. Like it's like the 819 01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:44.519 group of friends is a stepping stone to a relationship, And you know, 820 01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:47.239 I have such a thing about that, about how the hierarchy and how we 821 01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:53.920 hold up relationship as like the highest thing and the pinnacle, and I really 822 01:06:54.280 --> 01:06:59.079 I don't care for that, and I wish society wasn't so and culture wasn't 823 01:06:59.159 --> 01:07:04.760 so focused on everything being a stepping stone to a relationship. Yeah. Yeah, 824 01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:11.559 I think that's something I I don't really know how to do in general. 825 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:14.599 I don't know, this isn't I don't know if this is like it's 826 01:07:14.599 --> 01:07:17.840 not a specifically queer thing. It's just like a person thing. Yeah, 827 01:07:17.880 --> 01:07:23.679 because yeah, like it is. I think a lot of like AMAP people 828 01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:30.840 probably experience it more where the there is such a lack of like normal friendships. 829 01:07:31.519 --> 01:07:36.280 Yeah that when you do have, like you know, it's like, 830 01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:41.719 oh, this person's interested in me, and it's just it's like it's such 831 01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:46.159 a it's such a weird thing to go from like guy to girl and then 832 01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:53.000 be like complimented about certain things and you're like how did that happen? It's 833 01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:59.280 so it's so isolating being a guy. So I know that that's probably like 834 01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:02.679 a lot of like it like you were saying with your OCD where it's like 835 01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:08.000 some of what I'm saying might be true, but then it's invalidy because I'm 836 01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:10.639 like, oh, I'm trying. I know no, because like it it 837 01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:15.159 informs it, but it's also true for people who don't feel this. So 838 01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:19.640 it's just like it's so it's hard because each person we're all an individual like 839 01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:25.960 stew pot or whatever, and it's like everyone's stewpot is kind of different, 840 01:08:26.119 --> 01:08:30.479 and it doesn't make something less true because you have these other factors that also 841 01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:35.319 influenced it, if that makes sense. It's just the most it's a weird 842 01:08:35.399 --> 01:08:41.079 inversion of America as a melting pot. I know, right, but everyone 843 01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:48.800 is a melting pot within a larger melting pot. It's disgusting. But no, 844 01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:54.720 like I said at the beginning, like in just seeing you over the 845 01:08:54.800 --> 01:08:59.199 years in her stories, like I do feel like you've gotten so much lighter 846 01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:03.399 and happier and your quirkiness is able to show so much more than and like 847 01:09:03.520 --> 01:09:08.560 the thing with anxieties, like I fucking have I take anxiety. Man's like 848 01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:11.800 I've said that before, but it's like, so anxiety can be like an 849 01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:15.920 underlying current, like it is what it is. None of us are supposed 850 01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:19.279 to have cell phones and all these modern things, so anxiety is there. 851 01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:25.600 But I just feel like I've seen you become such a fuller person and you 852 01:09:25.760 --> 01:09:28.680 just I don't know, you just you seem you seem happier, and it's 853 01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:32.560 just really Yeah, I mean I should I thank you. It's just a 854 01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:39.600 statement. Yeah, I know. I'm like, I don't know. I'm 855 01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:42.600 like, it's an observation. I'm trying to think, what's the difference to 856 01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:46.000 observation. I'm overthinking. It's a fine line. What's the difference between gender 857 01:09:46.039 --> 01:09:49.319 roles and gender? It's this question keeps coming up. It's a fine line. 858 01:09:50.680 --> 01:09:55.800 Yeah, I do feel like, yeah, maybe it didn't come off 859 01:09:56.079 --> 01:10:00.920 to listeners as much because I'm like talking about the depressing parts, but yeah, 860 01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:04.359 I do feel I do feel like overall, I have a lot more 861 01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:11.520 purpose in life, and that was something I lacked for most of my life. 862 01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:15.319 ROI do you want Are you on social media? Do you want to 863 01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:19.560 be found there? If listener, do you want to shout out where folks 864 01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:24.680 can find you or do you prefer to be to fly under the radar. 865 01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:33.199 I mean, I have social media I'm bad at it. I guess I've 866 01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:38.159 made a board game. I could plug, yes, plug. This is 867 01:10:38.199 --> 01:10:41.960 the part where you get to plug anything that you like. Yeah, and 868 01:10:42.079 --> 01:10:47.439 you can you want, well, anything that you like that has to do 869 01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:51.359 with you, Like, don't be like Succession is a great show. Like 870 01:10:51.720 --> 01:11:00.000 whether things than are specific to to your life? Yeah, I mean I 871 01:11:00.039 --> 01:11:04.920 don't know. I highly doubt this is that relevant to your to your audience 872 01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:10.279 because like it's not queer. But I made a board game and you can 873 01:11:10.600 --> 01:11:15.560 check it out hyphen rush dot com. Can you wait say that one more 874 01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:19.560 time? Because I spoke over you grad hyphen rush dot com, like with 875 01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:25.960 the dash because I could, yeah, just grad, it's grad Rush game. 876 01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:30.560 I don't know if I'll do I don't know if I'll do some revisions 877 01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:34.000 because it's still kind of there's some unpolished stuff to it. But I mean 878 01:11:34.039 --> 01:11:38.439 maybe I'll maybe I'll come back and do more. I haven't had as much 879 01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:43.399 time. It was very cool. Games are inherently queer also, so I 880 01:11:43.439 --> 01:11:46.520 feel like that counts as queer. There's so many queer gamers, so that 881 01:11:46.760 --> 01:11:53.199 is. I do think there's a there is some kind of strange overlap get 882 01:11:53.239 --> 01:12:00.880 that I think there's a it's the the whole dorkiness shine through. Don't worry 883 01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:08.000 as much about the dorky look absolutely. Yeah, okay, yeah we can 884 01:12:08.119 --> 01:12:12.039 leave it at that. If you don't want to, Yeah, I guess 885 01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:19.760 life recommendations, go go try uh different forms of media because like it's like 886 01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:24.399 I hear people go like, man, there's so few queer shows, and 887 01:12:24.439 --> 01:12:29.319 I'm like, yeah, don't read comic books. Go read comic books. 888 01:12:29.600 --> 01:12:35.119 That's lots of very true and international web series and stuff as well, and 889 01:12:35.520 --> 01:12:41.439 there's a lot more queer stuff. Yeah, like heart Stopper was the big 890 01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:45.720 thing. It started as a comic. Go go read card Stopper. Uh 891 01:12:46.199 --> 01:12:50.560 So that's I guess that's that's how this You wrap up, You do your 892 01:12:51.199 --> 01:12:55.800 little Yeah, now I do, Now I do? Oh? I wish 893 01:12:55.840 --> 01:13:01.600 I had a jingle what if it's the beginning but the cool jingle d end? 894 01:13:01.640 --> 01:13:04.119 But I should write lyrics to it? Now the end? Here here's 895 01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:10.560 my usual end And you can find me at at Laren Flans on Twitter, 896 01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:15.079 learn Underscore Plans on Instagram. The podcast is at coming out Pod. The 897 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:19.600 hashtag is hashtag coming out pod and hey y'all, I have patrons and I 898 01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:24.279 love them dearly, and this is the part of the jingle where I shout 899 01:13:24.319 --> 01:13:28.479 them out. Shout out to carmel Ka, Simone, Kaya, Amne, 900 01:13:28.520 --> 01:13:31.880 Michelle el Adrie, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, 901 01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:36.159 Diego Hernandez, and Beyonclexa dot com. And then I always say, if 902 01:13:36.199 --> 01:13:40.720 you want to help the pod for zero dollars, a great thing to do 903 01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:45.000 is to rate it five stars on iTunes or Spotify, and that really helps 904 01:13:45.039 --> 01:13:49.600 the algorithm. Oh Rohi, we finally did it. This was a blast. 905 01:13:49.840 --> 01:13:55.600 I'm so glad to know all this, all this extra uh juicy, 906 01:13:55.720 --> 01:14:00.159 behind the scenes stuff about your life. Thank you for coming on, Thank 907 01:14:00.199 --> 01:14:02.680 you for having me. Yeah, I hope it was fleshed out enough. 908 01:14:02.800 --> 01:14:08.159 I feel like I'm going to have as you do with every conversation, you 909 01:14:08.319 --> 01:14:11.560 leave it and go like I missed half of the things that I should have 910 01:14:11.600 --> 01:14:15.119 brought up. But that's the human condition. No, I think I think 911 01:14:15.159 --> 01:14:19.239 we did a great job, awes, So thank you so much, Thank 912 01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:25.439 you all for listening, and I will see you next week. Oh bye.