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The build them pot build the build
the build the the build the build the

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people don't don't do then the the
the the the the the don the Alright,

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what's up. We're doing a daytime
stream. We don't usually do daytime

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streams, but today it just felt
right, and it just felt like,

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you know, I just felt some
type of way. So I felt like

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we got I had to do this
some some type of way. I got

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my uh triadic shot of espresso over
here. I got a triple shot,

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a triadic shot of espresso expresso.
As some might say, we got already

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some generous super chatters. Thank you, guys. We'll get to you guys

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in a minute. As you guys
know, the way this works in open

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forum, you can bring up whatever
questions topics that you want. I'm always

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coughing in here still because the allergy
is still nuts. Man. It's like

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I'm over the sickness, but pall
and boy is on the attack. So

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pollen Boy's got he's got spruce Boy, he's got Juniper Boy, and some

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other damn holly or some other kind
of tree bitch coming after me. So

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that's why I'm still coughing. It's
like a Level nine def Con five today

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for for pollen. So I'm gonna
try my best. As you know,

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the way it works is you request
to speak on Twitter. The link is

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in the chat, it's in the
show description. How do I call in?

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How do I call in? How
do I call? In? Twitter?

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When you request to speak, you
will be automatically muted. That's how

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Twitter works. When you come on. However, when I say you,

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that means you, and then you
have to unmute yourself. So even though

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I'm gonna have to say unmute dude
five hundred times, if you already know

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to unmute, then we could avoid
that, but we all know it's never

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going to be avoided. So it's
just gonna be like like you know cats

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phrase. You know, comedians have
those cringey catchphrases. Here's your sign,

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Pater's alid, Pater's alid, here's
your sign. You might be right mate,

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If you can't hit the unmute button, you might be a prior.

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Right. Well, my catchphrase is
just gonna be U mute dude, mute

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dude, just unmute man. Make
it easy. But look, nobody's gonna

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make it easy, and nobody except
one is actually going to present an argument.

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Remember, arguments are not assertions and
claims. That might be your position,

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your position, and then you give
evidences, or you give propositions,

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or you give arguments that support the
assertion or the claim. Just machine gunning

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a bunch of your positions out isn't
an argument. For example, in the

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Jake debate, Jake machine guns spat
out his position of what talhed was,

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but never give an argument for why
we should accept that. In his opening

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statement that that's what God's unity is, I argue that we have two competing

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systems giving competing accounts of unity and
diversity within God. And I ain't talking

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about a diversity quota. Okay,
we ain't talking about diversit. We talking

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about affirmative action inside the deity.
Okay, that's not what we're talking about.

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Just multiplicity, distinctions, unity and
difference in God. But what we

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heard was a lot of almost raping
this my position. This is my position,

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This is my position, No,
not arguments. I want to hit

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on a couple of things before we
open it up, because usually I find

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that a little bit of opening rant
kind of helps set the tone the stage

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for today's show. And of course
you can call in not just on Islam,

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but you can call in on the
topics listed in the show description or

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in the Twitter space description, and
without fail, people will join and say

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and be mad that it's a debate. What are you trying to beat me?

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Because it's title as a debate.
If you hop on a stream called

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debate, don't be upset that you're
engaging in a debate. It's titled that

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you hopped in the very string and
then played the victim. Who he's mean?

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No, you just didn't read the
topic star existence of God, metaphysics,

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trinity, Arianism, Nestorianism, church
history, councils, papacy, Vatican

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one, Vatican two, Medieval Church, metaphysics in the Middle Ages, Trinity,

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Tallheed, the debates, the Muslim
debates. Some Muslims said, you're

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you chose Jake because he's not a
good Muslim. It's like the fifth Muslim,

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how many muslim This is what they
always do, like it doesn't matter.

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You can you can debate infinite Muslims
and they will always say you would

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not debate the real Muslim. No
real Muslim, said infinity Muslims until there's

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like the the the the godfoot I
gotta just debate the godfoot itself before I

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actually have debated an actual, true
Islamic scholar. You can talk about logos,

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logik, it's about tag pre sup
transcendent arguments. We can talk about

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epistemology, atheism, materialism. All
of those are on the table. If

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you have questions, yes, you
can also ask your questions. However,

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we like to get people who disagree
the front of the line. So if

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you just have fifteen Orthodox questions about
fasting and FAQ's, go ask your priest

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about that. Don't ask me your
FAQs about whether you can listen to songibopolygy

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ds. Okay, don't ask me
if you can do whatever moral thing you

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don't know about. Today's stream is
not about that. And I'm not your

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advisor. I'm a kind of a
fool character, an Internet fool character who

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can demonstrate that even as a full
character, the fool archetype, even the

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fool can make bad arguments look as
bad as are you see what I'm trying

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to say. So I'm not your
guru. I'm not your guru. I'm

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not your spiritual daddy. I'm just
your philosophical daddy. Anyway, let's get

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into a little bit of what Redeem
Zumer, who seems to have spiraled out

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of control since our debate. For
whatever reason, he posted that he was

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freaking out that people in his discord
were converting to Orthodoxy and he was gonna

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ban talking about Orthodox stuff because so
many people in his discord we're starting to

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look into Orthodoxy. It doesn't seem
like since our discussion he's engaged in any

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attempts to better understand our positions.
It seems like he in damage control mode

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and flipping out constantly. And he
does the thing where he'll say a bunch

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of stuff about you personally and then
apologize and then we'll go. So just

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keep it to the issues. Okay, I never said anything about him personally,

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So if you respond to this,
just keep it to the issues,

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because I'm not I never said anything
about you as an individual. Jay is

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a guru name. It does sound
kind of it does sound kind of like

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a Hinduish name or something. Right, Let's see what is where does Redeem

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Zoomer mastering reform theology? Well,
does Redeem Zuomer actually have a master's in

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theology. Why would we think that
he can teach us master level stuff in

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theology as what is he like twenty
one? As you But despite the differences

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between Catholics and Protestants, they're a
lot closer to each other than they are

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to Eastern Orthodoxy. The biggest split
in Christianity was not the Protestant Reformation,

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it was the Great Schism between Protestants
and romancalies are closer to each other.

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I'm not sure about that. I
mean, I guess it just depends on

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which doctrine we pick. So I'm
assuming he's gonna pick original Sin, I

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mean, Western and Eastern Christianity.
Here's why we reformed Protestants side with the

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West. What the heck kind of
music is this? I feel like I'm

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at Santa's Village and I'm supposed to
what do we picking up? Freaking It's

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a year round Santa's Village where I'm
picking up ornaments? What kind of weird

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keyboard like boomer keyboard Cassio's songs is
he playing? Eastern Orthodoxy is a beautiful

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tradition that we can all be in
fired by, But the reason we don't

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agree with them is because Eastern theology
denies a lot of things that the Bible

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teaches. So we're going to have
the old word concept fallacy that even though

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we all agree that the texts have
to be interpreted, I'm just going to

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say that the words mean what they
say, and they say what they mean.

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So this is a common mistake that
we see Muslims, Roman Catholics,

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Protestants, and even some Orthodox engage
in, which is just the basic idea

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that there's a plain, simple meaning
of all texts and that other traditions get

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quote too philosophical and they don't stick
to the plain perspicuity meaning of the text.

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But our texts perspicuous, do they
actually possess perspiscacity? Do they possess

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viscosity? Breakdown? No, really, I mean you could say within a

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book that it's possible that certain texts
are clearer than other texts. Certainly within

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the Bible, certain texts are clearer
than other texts, but that's partly going

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to depend on who's reading it and
what their education level is, what their

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background is, what they do,
and don't know how familiar they are with

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the rest of the book. So
say, even admitting that certain areas of

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the Bible might be clearer than other
areas still doesn't itself tell us to each

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individual which area will be clearer.
In other words, something that an educated

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person thinks is pretty obvious might not
be obvious to an an educated person.

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Maybe they're reading about, you know, through the eye of a needle or

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something like that, right, and
you don't know this rhetorical idiom or whatever.

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You don't know this hyperbole. Okay, Well, if you're an uneducated

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person, that might be totally ambiguous
to you. An educated person might think,

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well, this is obviously hyperbole.
So you see that even when we

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say, or even if we admit
that there are quote clearer passages, it

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doesn't itself tell us which passages are
themselves universally clear or unclear. So a

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lot of times Protestants and we notice
the same thing with Muslims. It's exact

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move that Jake did. Have a
very naive epistemology and a naive linguistic theory

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or semiotic view that the text just
mean what they say, and they say

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what they mean, and that typically
goes along with word concept fallacy. People

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who have that one dimensional view of
language and texts typically fall into the mistake,

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as I'm sure we're going to see
with redeemed Zoomer of thinking that the

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word that's used always has the same
meaning in the same context and the same

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reference. So, for example,
logos as it's used by the this is

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a common Roman Catholic word concept fallacy. Well, Marcus Aurelius says logos,

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John One says logo. So they
mean and refer to the exact same thing.

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Maybe they do, maybe they don't
just because the word is used.

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We need to know the intentional context, and the lexical context, and the

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entire books context, and perhaps even
the entire religion's context. So you see

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that individual words are situated within broader
context, the sentence, the paragraph,

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the chapter, the book, the
book as a whole is in the case

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of the Bible, because it's books
within books, and then the tradition as

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a whole. Perhaps, so,
for example, I can't take a word

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that is exterior to the Orthodox tradition
or to the Biblical tradition, find that

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word in say Greek philosophy or Platonism, and then interpret that word within the

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Christian context as having a one to
one meaning with the Greek term. This

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happens a lot, for example with
news. Well, the Greek philosophers use

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the word news when you Orthodox use
it that must mean the same thing,

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So it's just purely the intellect or
some higher faculty of the intellect. According

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to say Greek philosophers, it's not
what it means an Orthodox it corresponds to

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the Hebrew idea of the heart,
which is not the intellect. So you

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see that with whether it's news or
whether it's logos. These are just examples,

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but the same type of mistake can
happen when we're looking at even English

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texts or English words like person,
Does person mean just an individual? Nature?

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Does it mean something distinct from nature? How we understand person and nature,

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for example, will have tremendous implications
on our view of the Trinity and

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our view of Christology. So a
big part of this mistake, and a

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big part of this really rookie sophomore
understanding, and a lot of Internet people

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engage in very common amongst Protestants and
Muslims, somewhat common amongst Roman Catholics as

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well, but maybe less Roman Catholics. The Roman Catholics tend to be,

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if they're into these topics, a
little more educated than the average Muslim or

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the average Protestant, so they can
sometimes avoid some of this issue. But

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as Saint Basil says, pretty much
every heretic is making some kind of linguistic

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mistake, usually right, and he's
speaking in that case of Eunomius and the

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Eunomian heresy kind of giving the idea
of ingeneracy or ungenerate in generate, basically

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identifying that with the divine essence.
And so therefore anything that's not in generate

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or ungenerated is therefore not God or
less than God. Hence the son,

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since he is not ingenerate, and
he is generate or has an origin,

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or he is not unoriginate, then
he must not be God. That's the

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Eunomian premise, or that's the version
of the Eunomian argument. And so Basil

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argues against this as the arrest of
capitations. Do that not every word is

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referring to or picking out the same
thing, right. Think about how many

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times we've made this argument with the
phrase like doctor Branson does God g odcause

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God can pick out different things.
And many, many Muslims since the Jake

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debate have already been saying, oh, you lost the debate when you said

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you believed in little g three little
g gods. And the argument there is

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just missing the whole point that this
is a linguistic distinction between what God can

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pick out as in distinct persons,
divine nature, and so the one True

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God, the one God capital G
typically is picking out the person of the

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Father, at least in the Patristic
period. That's always what it is,

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and that's why the Nicene Creed is
monarchical trinitarian doctrine. It says, I

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believe in one God, the Father. All the capititions speak this way.

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So little g God then refers to
God from God. Did you notice the

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Nicing Creed says God from God,
light from light. Okay. So that's

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a distinction within unity. That's the
way that we account for distinction within unity.

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Of course, Muslims, for example, whatever their position, whether they're

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a Shari or Salafi, or whether
they're whatever Athari, the different Muslim positions,

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neo Platonist, Shia, they're all
going to have different ways and attempts

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of accounting for unity and distinction in
God. So that's why I typically frame

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the debate what the Muslims as it's
not a debate between multiple who's got the

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unity position and who's the polytheist.
Different positions give me an account for unity

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and multiplicity. And that's why the
counting issue is so important there, because

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both Muslims and Christians, when they're
accounting for unity and distinction in God,

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are going to count by division and
by identity. And if you didn't notice,

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when the Creed, for example,
says undivided God is undivided, that's

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counting by division. When al Gazali
in his tenth proposition in the Moderation of

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Belief book talks about being God being
undivided, he's counting by division. Aristotle

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in category six metaphysics, I think
it's a round book ten and metaphysics counting

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by division. Now, I didn't
say in the ancient medieval world they only

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counted by division. That was a
mistake that Jake assumed that because I said

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they counted by division. I said
they only counted by division. No,

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I said first order, second order, and position two different types of things,

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even in the medieval philosophers that were
counted in different ways. So it

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would have actually behooved Jake to be
familiar with some of the responses to the

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argument that we only count by identity, because he just assumed that I was

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saying, no, we only count
by division, which I didn't say.

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I said we count in both ways. And then he set up a false

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either or, which he didn't realize
would trap his own position that if he's

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going to count the attributes by identity, then he's got multiple necessary attributes,

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which is a makes his position polytheist. So there you go. Thousand years

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ago, Christianity split in half when
the Patriarch of the East got kicked out

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of the church by the Pope.
Now a lot of this was political,

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but it was also theological, meaning
it has to do with what we think

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about God. Even though Catholics and
Protestants disagree on a lot, they have

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the exact same view of God.
The Eastern view is slightly different. There's

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really six main issues they disagree on, which can be abbreviated with the acronym

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Frost, Frost and Well. This
is an interesting, unique approach to this

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question. Let's see what is What
do we disagree on? Phillyoquate reason,

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maybe original sin, probably simplicity.
Yeah, theis sacrifice. Well, the

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Roman Catholic and the Protestant view of
sacrifice are not the same. So I

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don't know where he's gonna I don't
know if he thinks he's gonna find commonality

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with Roman Catholics on quote sacrifice.
All these issues are connected to each other.

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For each of these issues, there's
a Western view and an Eastern view,

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and the Western view of all these
issues is the biblical one the biggot.

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Okay, yeah, good, one
good argument there. Just assert that

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the quote West is right on all
of these issues and the East is wrong.

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I'm sure he's going to give some
kind of argument, but uh,

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I'm not sure that you. I'm
not sure that actually this is I mean

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Roman Catholics on the Phillyoque, I
mean, they have a lot more of

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a nuanced position. But this is
kind of assuming that Reformed and Protestants themselves

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have a unified position. Where does
he get the idea that quote Protestantism is

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a unified position on any of these
issues at all. There's no Protestant unity.

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Maybe you could say there's unity on
like a couple super generic positions,

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like we follow the Bible over tradition. Okay, maybe that's one of the

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quote unifying things of Protestants. Roman
Catholics and Protestants don't have the same view

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of sacrifice. I don't know what
he thinks the Western view of theosis is

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that's different from I mean, Protestants
don't even teach Theoses. So I mean

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this is again I'm predicting that this
is going to all be a bunch of

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word concept felt disagreement is the filioque. As we said in the first video,

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all Christians believe in the Trinity,
which is that the three persons,

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the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit are all God, which means they

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all have everything that makes God God. So he doesn't even know what monarchical

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trinitarianism is. He doesn't even know
that that's the view that's established at the

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Second Ecumenical Council, which is the
official Church's Trinity Council. So he didn't

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even know that. But if they
all have the same I think I brought

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all this up in our debate by
loook in properties, Then what makes them

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different from each other? The free
person? Hey, Jamie, could you

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make me a coffee? Could you
put a little Manuka honey in it?

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Thank you? I got a cupany
here? Those are only different from each

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other in their relations to each other. So what are these Yeah? And

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so if they're only different by relation, then the thing that makes them distinct,

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isn't anything unique. And so this
is one of the critiques that Lasky

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has of Western trinitarianism so called,
which is that a person reduces to a

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relation. But Eastern theology is premised
on the idea that persona persona a relatio

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is false. Person cannot be identified
with a relation, person is subject or

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agent. And and I brought this
up in our debate, and he was

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completely lost, by the way,
so none of what I said apparently stuck

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sunk in from our debate. And
he's just sort of look at what does

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all this? It looks like a
freaking football team's you know, is he

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like Rudy over here? He's drawing
the plays of the West, you know,

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Like I don't know, I mean, I hate football movies, but

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the Rudy is the only one I
can even think of that I've ever watched.

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Right, So he's over here like
Rudy, trying to trying to rally

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his team, drawing, drawing the
Trinity and the philioquis some confusing ass gibberish

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football play. According to the West, the Son is eternally generated from the

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Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally
proceeds from the and the Son or philioqua

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in Latin. Notice we haven't had
any so far as just saying positions,

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no arguments yet. But according to
the East, the Holy Spirit only proceeds

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from the Father and not the Son. The first question should be what does

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the Bible say. The Bible very
clearly says the Holy Spirit or the spirit

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of the Father is also the spirit
of the Sun. So level one mistakes.

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He doesn't understand the difference between economia
and theology proper, or the intratrinitarian

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life versus the economia. So doesn't
even know that, not even a level

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one understanding of what the phillioquy issue
is. The spirit of Christ. Many

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many times it says the Holy Spirit
is from the Son or of the Son.

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Yeah, nobody in the Orthodox Church
disagrees with that. That was never

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even part of the debate that should
settle it. But still the East,

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I mean literally doesn't even know the
issue. It is the West of adding

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the philioqua to the Nicene Creed when
it wasn't there before. And we don't

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accuse the West of doing it.
The West admits to doing it, and

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pote leio iid forbade it from being
added. So that's again, it doesn't

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even know basic history. This is
technically true, but it kind of doesn't

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matter because neither of them use the
original version of the Nicene Creed. Yeah,

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but the argument isn't that we only
follow the creed as it's produced at

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Nicea. The argument is that Constantinapolitan
creed, the Niceno concept of Politan creed

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is forbidden at Ephesus from being added
to. So the clause that you and

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then Chalcidon, right, So Ephysis
and Chalcedon are the ones that say that

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you can't alter the creed. It's
not Nicea one that says the creed can't

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be changed. So this is misunderstanding. This is an old, a stupid

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old argument. Abara made that he
didn't even realize that it's not Nicea that

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forbids the change. The change is
forbidden after it's already been changed, which

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didn't have the paragraph about the Holy
Spirit. All of this is like level

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literally level one oh one mistakes.
So both of them use an updated version.

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It's just that the Western version is
slightly more updated. And just because

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the original creed didn't have the philiokwa
doesn't mean people didn't believe in the Philioquay

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00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,839
back then. Actually it does because
number one, he doesn't even understand what

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the issue is. It's about the
hyposthetic properties and whether the father is the

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sole cause hence monarchical trinitarianism as taught
by the Cappadocians, and whether or not

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the hypoesechic property the father can be
shared, given to or in any way

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participated in by the son. That's
the issue, especially because so many of

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the most important people that we talked
about in the previous videos did believe in

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00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:32,039
it. Some of the greatest defenders
of true teaching, like Saint Athanasius sant

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Anthonasia doesn't believe in the Philioquay.
This is easily debunked in Sishensky's book.

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Really the only there's one quote in
Ambrose that could be read as Philioquay and

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then Saint Augustine. So for the
West, that's it. We did a

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whole livestream with doctor Branson who did
his dissertation on the Cappadocians, and there's

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00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:03,359
one phrase in Nissa's against you Oomias
that's used as a proof text. But

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00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,079
as doctor Brentson points out, that
one phrase in against Eunomius goes against the

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rest of the thrust of the text, and because it's an ambiguous passage,

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00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:18,720
it makes more sense to interpret the
one phrase in Nissa's text in harmony with

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the rest of the text that are
a lot clearer, where he specifies that

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00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:25,960
there's there's only one sole cause and
that is the hypostasis of the Father.

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It's not the divine nature. So
you can refer back to the three hour

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00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,519
livestream that we did going through the
entire Skyshensky book on the phillyoquay, which

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00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:38,599
is the most up to date academic
text on it from a person who was

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00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,000
rom Macalol became Orthodox. And you
can also go watch the recent Doctor Branson

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00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:47,240
stream that we did where we dove
deep into these topics as well, leaving

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essentially no argumentation for the Philly equality
other than Augustine. That's it. The

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spirit is from the Sun. Oh
wait, we don't go by one guy.

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So for perfectly a Protestant mindset that
I get my canon, I'll pick

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00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,039
Jerome one guy. Where do I
get my Trinity doctrine? All Augustine?

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00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:12,960
One guy? Yeah, it's the
Constantinopolitan council. The second echemical Council.

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00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,960
That trumps any single dude the way
the son is from the Father or Saint

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00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:22,799
Cyril of Alexandria explicitly saying the Holy
Spirit. Yeah, if you read the

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00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,839
rest of Cyril, and if you
read the treatment that Sashynski says, this

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00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,519
is not what he's talking about.
The procession is what he's talking about.

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Just because the word proceeds is used, that just means come forth, So

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00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:41,720
it's not always in the English translation
identical to hypostatic origin. So we agree

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00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:47,119
that the manifestation of the spirit and
the energies is through the son. Right,

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00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,000
and that's taught by Gregor Cyprus.
That's at the later Palomide Synods.

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You could read Crisis and Byzantium by
Papadoccus on that. But just because you

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00:31:56,839 --> 00:32:00,400
see the word proceeds, you notice
that he did the same thing with biblical

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00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,440
texts. Right, comes from the
son, Yeah, but in what sense

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00:32:04,599 --> 00:32:08,880
comes from the son in terms of
manifestation, proceeding forth through manifestation or proceeding

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00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,039
forth as hyposthetic origin. You see, those are two different things. Aids

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00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:16,640
from the Father and the son.
Or Pope Leo also saying the spirit proceeds

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00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,240
from the Father, and he's saying
the Holy Spirit. By the way,

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00:32:20,279 --> 00:32:22,839
if you notice that text right there, the Holy Spirit when he is in

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00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:28,759
us right comes from father and son. That's economia. So even the text

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00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:32,920
that he's got right there is an
economic relation and not a eternal hyposthetic origin.

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00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,480
Relation proceeds from the Father and the
son. Or Pope Leo also saying

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00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:38,960
the spirit proceeds from the Father and
the son. Yeah, this is also

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00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:44,079
dealt with in the Sashensky books.
So this is why it doesn't work to

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00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:47,519
do quote minds to prove this kind
of stuff. It's basically just ignoring all

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00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:53,680
of the scholarship that explains to you
the difference between hyposthetic origin and manifestation,

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00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,039
which is necessary to have a coherent
doctrine of eternity. By the way,

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00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,720
Romeancholics typically don't even know this or
understand this unless they happen to be kind

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00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:08,519
of brainiac uniates. Really, braini
ac uniates are the only ones that are

352
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:13,119
even kind of aware of this.
But it's actually brought up by the way

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00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:21,799
in the Vatican clarification opilioqui. Both
sides recognize these people as the heroes of

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00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:23,920
the early Church. Now the East
response to this by saying, the Bible

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00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,680
and the Church fathers are only talking
about energetic procession, not hypostatic procession.

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00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:38,519
No. Actually, you already confused
economia with intratrinitarian life and origin, so

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00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,400
we don't just say that it's that. So you misunderstood that partly because they

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00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,920
think there's a difference between God's essence
and God's energies. But that creates a

359
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,480
whole Yeah, that actually comes from
the Bible. Right, So Paul makes

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00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:53,720
this distinction when he talks about the
energies of the spirit. Right, we

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00:33:53,839 --> 00:33:58,119
have this when we talk when we
read about the seven spirits of God.

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Okay, do you think God's knowledge, God wisdom, et cetera. Are

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00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:05,599
they creatures or are they really distinct
things. I'm pretty sure foreign knowledge is

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00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,400
different from the divine essence. I'm
pretty sure the act of creating is different

365
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,000
from the act of destroying the world. New set of problems that we're going

366
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:15,840
to talk about later. Also,
in the Eastern view, you can't really

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00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,760
tell what the difference between the son
and the spirit is because they're both just

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00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,119
from the Father. Yeah, maybe
you should read the Cappadocians, who actually

369
00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:28,559
address that Youuno me an argument directly
because Unumius again he was talking about reducing

370
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,880
hypocided properties to essence. And Basil's
response is that that there is a distinction

371
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:38,639
between procession and generation. We know
what the distinction is, we do not

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00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,400
know. That's a Cappadocian quote.
Those are the guys who gave us the

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00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,719
doction of the Trinity at the second
Acimunical Council. So this guy's no knowledge

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00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:46,679
of any of this. They'll say, the difference is because the sun is

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00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,159
from them, not even aware of
the basics, rather by begetting in the

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00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:52,519
spirit by procession. And if you
ask what the difference between those two things

377
00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:54,440
are, they'll say, we know
there is a difference, but it's a

378
00:34:54,480 --> 00:35:00,679
mistery. That's Basil's quote. There
is the guy who's like the daddy of

379
00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:04,199
the Trinity, next Sathanasius and the
other Capitotion's so he doesn't even know.

380
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,360
He's like. What he's arguing against
is what Basil says of mystery. Another

381
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,280
thing they disagree on is reason the
Bible calls Christ the logos or the wisdom

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00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,719
of God. Both sides agree on
that. Both sides also agree that all

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00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:21,000
Christians have the Holy Spirit. But
because the West believes the Holy Spirit proceeds

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00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:25,519
from Christ, therefore proceeds from the
wisdom of God. That implies that Christians

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00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:30,039
have access to the wisdom of God
and therefore can gain knowledge of God.

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00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,679
This is why Western Christianity is more
intellc cat That makes no sense. So

387
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:43,920
he thinks that because Christ is the
logos, that this somehow translates to the

388
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,800
huge He doesn't even know what faculties
are like. He doesn't know that reason

389
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,400
can be spoken of as a faculty
that we possess as part of our human

390
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:59,360
nature, and that the Divine mind
possesses reason as well. The church fathers

391
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:07,000
argue he's equivocating on reason, as
if this is somehow necessary and connected to

392
00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:13,519
Philly Oquey literally no idea. What
this is a ridiculous Sorry, I've never

393
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:16,880
heard. This makes no sense.
It's just equivocating on terms that implies that

394
00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:22,199
Christians have access to the wisdom of
God and therefore can gain knowledge of God.

395
00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:25,599
This is why Western Christianity is more
intellectual and Eastern Christianity is more No.

396
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,079
But it's not though, And if
you read Singeria Palomas, the point

397
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:32,760
of intellect and concepts is fine as
far as it goes. But God is

398
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,360
not in your intellect, and God
is not your concept. God is beyond

399
00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:43,960
all intellect and concepts, and so
the direct experience of God transcends the creaturely

400
00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:45,079
things. That doesn't mean the creature
early things are bad. It just means

401
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:50,920
that they're limited. In the West, you get this idealization and idolatry of

402
00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:55,960
intellect and ideas because they actually identify
the soul with the intellect. So again

403
00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:00,079
I don't even think I don't think
he really understands what he doesn't know the

404
00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:02,840
difference between reasoning as a faculty,
reasoning as an action or a function,

405
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,639
and what it even means to call
reason a property or a faculty of nature

406
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:12,239
mystical because they have different views of
reason. This is not an insult.

407
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,239
Prominent Orthodox priests will agree with this
right after the fact. That reasoning can

408
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,199
lead us away from God does not
mean that reasoning is bad or that we're

409
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,440
anti intellectual. So this is another
straw man, as if because Father Josiah

410
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,840
Trendum is talking about rationalism, that
he doesn't redeem him or not know the

411
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,760
difference between reason as a faculty or
a function and rationalism as an intellectual movement

412
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,119
of the Enlightenment. No, he
doesn't even know that the split, the

413
00:37:39,199 --> 00:37:45,119
West started doing scholasticism, which is
where they study theology academically and try to

414
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,320
learn the mysteries about God. Saint
Anselm was one of the most important Western

415
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,719
saints right after the split, and
he started medieval scholasticism. He said that

416
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:58,320
theology he's not actually started by Anselm, it's actually Augustine and boetheis. But

417
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,519
the problem is, so there's another
word, concept fallacy. The problem is

418
00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:07,840
not being scholastic. The problem is
scholasticism, which is built on a bunch

419
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,400
of faulty presuppositions. So another word
concept fallacy. That he doesn't know the

420
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,480
difference, doesn't know the difference between
reason and rationalism. He doesn't know the

421
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:21,920
difference between being scholastic and scholasticism,
because if he were to read the medieval

422
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:30,000
Byzantine theologians, they were super scholastic. His faith seeking understanding, and he

423
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:34,639
started to find out new ways to
prove that God exists. The medieval scholastics

424
00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:37,480
spent centuries trying to figure out everything
like how do we define what God is?

425
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,840
And some says God is the thing. You can't think of anything greater

426
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,800
than Thomas Aquinas says God is pure
being. Dun Scotis says God is the

427
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:51,559
infinite. And these ideas don't necessarily
contradict each other, and Reform theology was

428
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:55,800
greatly. I don't understand why he's
apt to point out people that he thinks

429
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,599
are actually heretics. I mean,
these are people that number one and reject

430
00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:04,679
him until I think he's heretical.
He thinks these people are heretical, but

431
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:08,480
leave it to the Reform to be
inconsistent and roll these people out when they

432
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:15,079
think they're useful for optics reasons.
Influenced by these theologians, All these people

433
00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:20,480
thought the philioque is necessary for understanding
God. So what we also don't think

434
00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,960
that those people are saints in our
church. So what would this have to

435
00:39:24,079 --> 00:39:31,559
do with disproving the Orthodox position unless
you're just trying to score points on the

436
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:37,719
ideas that there's a generic Western theology
of God that's correct. Do you think

437
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:43,880
that John Calvin's theology is anywhere close
to Thomas Aquinas? Do you think that

438
00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:51,480
Anselm's theology is anywhere close to I
don't know. Zwingli. I mean,

439
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:54,360
give me a break, right,
So this is all optics and like ignoring

440
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,199
the big issues that these people killed
each other. They're not in agreement.

441
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:06,199
Literally, Protestants killed themselves amongst other
Protestants over baptism. Roman Catholics killed Protestants

442
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:12,559
obviously, So this idea that there's
a generic commonality between them that he could

443
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:19,280
somehow utilize against Orthodoxiology is just like
super low deer in studying God led to

444
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,840
studying God's creation by doing science.
That's why it was the Western Church that

445
00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:29,159
created modern science, modern universities,
classical music, and actually university has come

446
00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:32,000
out of Byzantium. Okay, it's
not a creation of the West, so

447
00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:38,960
ignorant of Byzantium modern science, I
don't mean modern scientism. I mean that

448
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,480
seems like a double edged sword there, so I'm not sure. But to

449
00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:49,320
attribute this to I mean, is
this admitting then that Roman Catholicism is the

450
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,119
real source. I mean, if
he's gonna argue that Western that all this

451
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:57,480
Western stuff comes out of the Middle
Ages, then this is actually undercutting his

452
00:40:57,639 --> 00:41:01,400
dumb reform position. So oh,
it looks like modern science, universities come

453
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,639
out of Rome and not the Protestant
world. So that's actually an own against

454
00:41:06,679 --> 00:41:08,920
himself. And by the way,
University has come out of Byzantium, not

455
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:15,280
whatever he thinks to come out of
Western civilization itself, the most successful civilization

456
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,519
to ever exist. Well, how
do you measure success, right? I

457
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:22,760
mean the success of Western civilization quote
unquote measured by bodily comforts? Is it

458
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:30,000
measured by nuclear weapons? Is it
measured by how apostate and atheist it is?

459
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:34,079
Now, so you see how arbitrary
and ridiculous this kind of argumentation is.

460
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,199
And we're back. So this video
is not very long, and we'll

461
00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:40,440
be done with this in a second, and then I'll have one little clip

462
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,559
and then we'll open it up to
you guys. Now again, today's topics

463
00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:49,000
are whatever you want to talk about
in terms of the things listed, So

464
00:41:49,639 --> 00:41:52,920
don't start talking about Middle Eastern politics. But that's not the topic today.

465
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,800
If you start talking about tiny mustache
man, I'm immediately going to boot you.

466
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:05,400
So I'm talking about weird conspiracy crap, You're gonna get booted immediately because

467
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,559
none of those things are the topic. Also, today we're talking to people

468
00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:14,159
who disagree, so those go to
the head of the line, if you

469
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:19,559
got twenty questions for me about what
you're supposed to do in your fasting rules,

470
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,559
that's not for me. I'm not
going to answer your fasting question.

471
00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:29,679
This is a it's a debate,
okay, that means actual debate. So

472
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,239
if you hop on here and whine
and cry because you hopped on a debate

473
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,519
stream, it's not gonna work.
Nobody's going to buy into that, and

474
00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:37,440
they're not going to believe you're a
victim and you're oppressed because you came on

475
00:42:37,679 --> 00:42:43,400
a stream that you didn't actually read. The title for Western theology is whether

476
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,239
they like Augustin, who was one
of the most important church fathers, and

477
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,199
it shouldn't surprise you that he very
strongly believed in the philioque. Also,

478
00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:55,519
yeah, but nobody, not even
you as a Protestant, follows one dude,

479
00:42:55,719 --> 00:43:00,079
right, I mean, nobody consistently
follows one dude. Now, the

480
00:43:00,159 --> 00:43:04,920
Romancaloic Church supposedly follows one dude aka
Francis, but they don't consistently do that.

481
00:43:05,039 --> 00:43:07,719
As we'll see here in a second. You don't follow one dude.

482
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:12,599
So when you try to find evidence
for your positions in the church fathers,

483
00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:15,519
it's completely arbitrary. Oh, I
want the canon that Jerome has. Oh

484
00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:21,800
I want the theology of Jesus that
Athanasius has. And then you think the

485
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,760
rest of his beliefs are heretical.
By the way, no Roman Catholic person

486
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:30,800
would ever accept your belief that Augustine
is a Protestant. Have you read Augustine.

487
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,599
I don't just mean your quote minds. I mean I've read thousands of

488
00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:37,440
pages of Augustine. He was a
Catholic bishop. Now, for us,

489
00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:44,480
we think that individual theologians can make
mistakes. Gregor Nissa made mistakes, Saint

490
00:43:44,519 --> 00:43:51,079
Maximus made mistakes, Augustine made mistakes. Tertullian made mistakes. Some mistakes can

491
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:53,480
be so severe that eventually the church
determines that you're outside the church. Like

492
00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:58,280
in the case of Turtullian, he
left the church. Right. You could

493
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,400
argue that Justin Marty made a mistas
take in the way he phrased things here

494
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,639
and there. Sure, but he
could also be read in an Orthodox way.

495
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,480
Now I want to remind everybody too
that IP is inspiring, philosophy is

496
00:44:08,519 --> 00:44:15,760
doing a stream. Later, addressing
one of Jake's claims about Tertullian being not

497
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:21,639
a trinitarian. Sam Schmun also addressed
this. It's a dumb argument, it's

498
00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:24,519
actually missing the whole point. But
anyway, let's get back to this believed

499
00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:28,920
in original sin, which says that
because of the fall, all of us

500
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,119
are dead in sin from the moment
of conception O, our default state is

501
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:38,760
guilty before God. That mean,
now, I guess redeem Zuomer is not

502
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:44,400
even aware of the Roman Catholic position, is not the Augustinian position? Does

503
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,880
he not know this? And you
could go read the for example, well,

504
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:52,360
you'd read the Catholic Catechism where it
makes a distinction between original guilt and

505
00:44:52,559 --> 00:44:58,599
actual guilt. Roman Catholics no longer
affirm original guilt. Infants are not guilty

506
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:04,360
because of adam sin. So that's
actually something that we agree with in terms

507
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,000
of Rome in the Orthodox. Now, at the time of Augustine, up

508
00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:12,440
until Gregory the Great, the West
did believe that infants were guilty and that

509
00:45:12,559 --> 00:45:15,559
all men were guilty in Adam as
in an archetype. And that's the argumentation

510
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:22,159
that Augustin uses in the City of
God, for example, in one place

511
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:24,639
where he makes this argument. And
so he has a neoplatonic idea that everyone

512
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,719
is guilty because we're all in potentia
in Adam as in an archetype, and

513
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:35,960
so we are all already guilty because
we exist in potentia in Him. Eventually,

514
00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:39,280
when the Roman Catholic Church defines and
explains the doctrine of infant limbo,

515
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:45,400
this is precisely to get around the
fact that infants are not guilty of Adam's

516
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:52,360
sin itself. So actually Rome eventually
softens their position and moves away from original

517
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:57,599
guilt. Now you could argue that
Romancalolic Church is inconsistent, which I do

518
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,639
argue that in my essay against Taylor
Marshall on this position. But the modern

519
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:08,199
day Roman Catholic Church does not agree
with the reformed Calvinist position that infants are

520
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:15,440
automatically damned merely by being children about
him. So the only people today that

521
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:21,800
still hold to the Augustinian position are
Calvinists. So if he wants to claim

522
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:28,280
Augustine, he could claim him just
in that specific area and maybe on absolute

523
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,840
predestination. But he doesn't even know
that the Roman Catholic position is not his

524
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,119
position on inherited guilt. It's from
the moment we were conceived we deserve to

525
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:40,440
go to hell. It's not a
pretty truth, but it's what the Bible

526
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:45,800
teaches. He doesn't teach that.
That's your misinterpretation and Meandorff has a good

527
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:51,800
essay pointing out where because Augustine didn't
know the Greek, he misunderstood Romans five.

528
00:46:52,039 --> 00:46:54,280
It's very important to recognize how serious
sick. By the way, if

529
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,320
you want to go deeper into that, I have an entire three hour discussion

530
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,280
from Augustine proving all these points.
Okay, so I'm sure a lot of

531
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:07,679
people are gonna be like, ooh, ooh, look, I will walk

532
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:15,920
you through Augustine's errors and his texts
in great detail in this open Q and

533
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:22,239
A that we did right here.
It's called Augustine Calvin Original Sin Orthodox Theology.

534
00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:23,840
So you can go watch this stream. I'll put it in the chat

535
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:30,719
right here. And this addresses in
detail the basic mistakes and fundamental errors that

536
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,599
reform Zoomer is not even aware of, and that he's engaging in. And

537
00:47:35,679 --> 00:47:38,000
it is so we recognize how much
we depend on God. We must get

538
00:47:38,039 --> 00:47:40,880
past this part to the next point. Well Eastern Orthodox, he tends to

539
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,440
lean a bit more in the direction
of Pelagius, which is why the West

540
00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:49,480
has not even Plagianism. It's like, so if he understood the Roman Calolky

541
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,000
position, he would call it Pelagian
or semi pelagius. That he doesn't.

542
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:54,440
He doesn't even know what he thinks. That. The only position that's not

543
00:47:54,679 --> 00:48:00,239
semi Palagian is if you believe in
inherited guilt the sinner. But the East

544
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:06,079
doesn't really believe that. Here's another
word. The East and West disagree on

545
00:48:06,199 --> 00:48:09,280
God. The West has a more
strict monotheism because it believes that what God

546
00:48:09,559 --> 00:48:13,880
is is one thing. Yes,
God is three persons, but here we're

547
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:19,840
talking about God's essence absolute divine.
Simplicity means God's essence or what God is

548
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,000
is the same as God's attributes or
the things about God, and simplicity just

549
00:48:24,079 --> 00:48:28,280
means that God is not made of
parts. So God's power, in God's

550
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,559
mind and God's love are not parts
of God. They are the same as

551
00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:35,199
God. So when the Bible says
God is love, we take that literally,

552
00:48:35,559 --> 00:48:38,199
meaning that God is the same as
infinite love. The Eastern view is

553
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,880
completely different. The East believes that
the things about God, like love and

554
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,679
power and justice are just energies that
come from God, and God could refer

555
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:52,559
to of course, I'm not going
to rehearse that. We probably respond to

556
00:48:52,719 --> 00:49:00,199
this five hundred times. So I've
been making videos about the energies for over

557
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:10,239
ten years. And here is the
doctor bo Branson's lectures right here. If

558
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,880
you want to learn what monarchical trinitarianism
is from doctor Branson, who we just

559
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,079
had on discussing this not too long
ago. Here's a great link right there

560
00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:23,400
for his lectures. So doctor Branson
gives you one, two, three,

561
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:36,000
four, five, five lectures on
what monarchical trinitarianism is, and then it's

562
00:49:36,639 --> 00:49:43,440
the only real consistent way to rebut
the Islamic argument of monotheism, especially when

563
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,480
we look at the text where Jesus
is referring to the Father is greater than

564
00:49:46,519 --> 00:49:50,559
I. Of course it doesn't mean
ontologically greater, it means greater in role.

565
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:59,679
So there is doctor avail yourself of
doctor Branson's lectures. I highly recommend

566
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,760
it. And again he should have
he should have looked at some of this

567
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,960
stuff before making this video, because
it really just comes out looking like a

568
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:16,039
shoddy, corny like level one attempt
to explain the differences without even understanding really

569
00:50:16,119 --> 00:50:22,239
what the other positions are. So
there's brand doctor Branson's talks. Did I

570
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,199
put my talk on Augustine in there? I can't remember if I did.

571
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:31,719
Here it is if I didn't.
So, because we've refuted and because we've

572
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:37,440
answered the energies stuff probably literally five
hundred times, I'm not gonna repeat all

573
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:42,239
of that. Let's see what he
says about theosis of God's energies. And

574
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,639
because God's energies are also called God, in some sense, we become God

575
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:50,079
in the end. Now, the
West also believes in theosis. The West

576
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:53,320
also believes that we receive love and
immortality from God when we have eternal life.

577
00:50:53,639 --> 00:50:58,519
The difference is the West knows that
these are gifts that God created for

578
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,280
us, but the Yeah, so
as Paloma says, if we just get

579
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:07,559
another creature, then we are no
different than the Arians. So here he's

580
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:13,400
admitting that his position of created grace
is where it is created grace, and

581
00:51:13,559 --> 00:51:16,320
so therefore the arguments of Athenasius.
He claims to really like Athenasius. But

582
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:22,320
Athenasius said that if we're getting in
salvation just another creature, then the Arians

583
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,280
are correct. So he doesn't even
understand that he should go read a dialogue

584
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:32,039
between Orthodox and a barling mine to
to understand from God. Whereas the East

585
00:51:32,079 --> 00:51:37,159
thinks of salvation is a gift of
God's grace, he thinks that's Augustinianism.

586
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:42,920
Actually, Augustine teaches a cooperative grace. So even Augustine believes that the will

587
00:51:43,599 --> 00:51:45,920
is still present in the human being, and the will is still cooperating.

588
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:51,079
Augusta believes in merits. Right,
if you read his books, he actually

589
00:51:51,119 --> 00:51:57,559
writes about merit. Okay, he
has works on grace and merit, and

590
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,559
he doesn't deny merit. He wouldn't
be a Roman Caolic saint if he completely

591
00:52:00,639 --> 00:52:05,440
denied all merit. And he says, well, the merits are still gifts

592
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,639
of God's grace. Okay, Well
I can agree with that. My mouse

593
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:14,559
just died. So again it's word
concept fallacies because it depends on what you

594
00:52:14,679 --> 00:52:15,960
mean, right, I mean,
I can I can believe that my own,

595
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,519
my own human energy and will that
I have by nature, that i'd

596
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:27,960
cooperate with grace in is also a
gift. Sure, So again it's a

597
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,920
lot of equivocating that he's in God. So according to the West, all

598
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:36,599
you have to do to be saved
is accept God's grace even though different Westnes

599
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,079
So he just refuted his own position
here. By the way, he didn't

600
00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:42,880
even understand that this would be a
creator. This would be a crystallogical heresy

601
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,760
too, because of Christ in assuming
human nature didn't do anything but make another

602
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:52,599
created human nature, or that the
grace that He gave to his human nature

603
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:55,840
and the incarnation a lah the Sixth
Council. If it's just another creature,

604
00:52:57,159 --> 00:53:00,960
then again he's back at Arianism.
So he doesn't even understands might disagree on

605
00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:04,480
how to receive God's grace, but
in the East, there's no way to

606
00:53:04,599 --> 00:53:07,760
know if you're united enough to God
have assurance of salvation. We can know

607
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,599
that we are in Christ. Okay, so you can pause it that there

608
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:17,960
is theoretically an assurance of salvation like
once Saved always said or whatever. But

609
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,320
the funny thing about all that is
that none of that actually because even in

610
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,039
his position as a Calvinist, right, if there's self deception and Calvinists believe

611
00:53:27,119 --> 00:53:30,719
that you're self deceiving yourself all the
time because the no edic effects of sin

612
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,159
are affecting you at all times,
then there's no way for him as an

613
00:53:34,199 --> 00:53:37,280
individual to know that he's not being
self deceived into thinking that he's wanted the

614
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:43,599
elect. This alone refutes the notion
of assurance of salvation amongst Calvinists. But

615
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,119
the East prefers to say things,
our iniquities, the punishment that brought us

616
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:52,480
peace was on him. Yeah,
this is all again word concept fallacy,

617
00:53:52,559 --> 00:54:04,400
assuming that post Enlightenment ideas about nominalism
and legal standing and divorcing ontology from legality

618
00:54:04,599 --> 00:54:08,440
and from propositions, which is a
post Enlightenment development, that that's all read

619
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:14,400
back into Isaiah and ancient text.
Now, the ancient world and the medieval

620
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:21,280
world never separated ontology from nominalism from
naming. Okay, so there's no such

621
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,559
thing as a purely legal status that
doesn't affect your ontology. But that if

622
00:54:24,599 --> 00:54:28,920
that goes away, then all Reformation
theology goes away, because that's what PSA

623
00:54:29,079 --> 00:54:32,039
is built on. Penal substitution or
tone is built on the post Enlightenment nomalist

624
00:54:32,119 --> 00:54:39,119
idea that you can divorce metaphysics from
naming and legal status. So he's just

625
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:45,400
reading in post Enlightenment presubpositions, post
Reformation and presubsisitions back into Isaiah and by

626
00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:49,639
his wounds, we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone

627
00:54:49,679 --> 00:54:54,639
astray. Jesus's sacrifice takes away our
legal penalty. So again, what does

628
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:59,480
that mean? Okay, it's not
a question of can you find a quote,

629
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,559
because this is the same goofy debate
that every reform person, for example,

630
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,159
engages when engaged them when they say, for example, oh, well,

631
00:55:07,199 --> 00:55:10,400
the church fathers talk about the importance
of scripture, therefore solo scriptura.

632
00:55:12,119 --> 00:55:16,559
Oh Athanasia is talking about sacrifice,
so therefore he means the post Enlightenment ideas

633
00:55:16,679 --> 00:55:22,119
of nominalism and pure legal status.
No, he doesn't, and if you

634
00:55:22,159 --> 00:55:23,400
were to read Athenasius, you would
actually know that. By the way,

635
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:29,840
Protestant scholar has already written books on
this Ustecia Day by Alisterroir McGrath points out

636
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:34,079
that nobody prior to Luthor had Luther's
ideal of justification by faith alone. So

637
00:55:34,159 --> 00:55:38,280
even your own Protestant scholars admit this. But he's what twenty one twenty two,

638
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:43,159
He doesn't even know the East Reject's
original guilt. The Reform tradition is

639
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,480
very intellectual, so we're not.
I guess what. Let's just cut this

640
00:55:45,559 --> 00:55:50,079
out right away. We could just
really emphasize, let's use philosophy to make

641
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:53,079
this really simple. If total depravity
is true, and if the noetic effects

642
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:57,960
of sin are affecting you at all
times, and that includes in your rational

643
00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:01,920
theological discourse and your urn portation of
scripture, then you're also in every case

644
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:07,599
denying the possibility of having the certitude
that you claim to have. So every

645
00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:08,920
time you're reading the Bible, every
time you're reading the text, reading the

646
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:13,960
Church Fathers, the noedic effects of
sin are distorting what you're doing. And

647
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,360
every act you're actually engaging in some
degree of sin. On your own view,

648
00:56:17,079 --> 00:56:22,159
right, every act is in some
way affected by noetically in total depravity,

649
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:27,920
the effects of sin. So that
would actually undercut and cancel out the

650
00:56:28,039 --> 00:56:31,320
possibility for him to have the certitude
that he has, not just on his

651
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:37,119
supposed doctrine of assurance of salvation,
but also on every text that he reads.

652
00:56:37,679 --> 00:56:42,400
Every time he tries to go to
the Bible, the noetic effects of

653
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,639
sin are messing with his interpretation,
and so he could never get to the

654
00:56:46,679 --> 00:56:50,679
true meaning of the text itself,
which is what his whole religion is based

655
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,639
on. Solar scripture, that alone
is enough to cut out all of this

656
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:59,239
word concept felsy give you position so
as we expect that I had not seen

657
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,239
this video before were playing it with
you guys, it was actually worse than

658
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:07,039
I expected. Super low tier multiple
word concept fallacies. Lack of familiarity with

659
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:14,280
basic distinctions between the intratrinitarian life and
economia when it came to Phillyoquay. Lack

660
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:19,119
of basic understanding of the actual debate
of the history of Philioquay. Lack of

661
00:57:19,159 --> 00:57:23,079
familiarity with the basic academic sources on
the Philly Oquay A La Sashchensky and others.

662
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:30,880
Lack of basic understanding of what the
disputes were between Roman Catholics and Protestants,

663
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:37,519
assuming that Augustine is somehow a useful
person for Protestants, which is preposterous,

664
00:57:38,639 --> 00:57:44,000
assuming that Roman Catholics and Protestants have
the same doctrine of original guilt.

665
00:57:44,079 --> 00:57:50,239
They don't. So again, multiple
fundamental mistakes. And you know, Redeemed

666
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,280
Zuomer got really upset over our debate
for whatever reason, and so looks like

667
00:57:54,360 --> 00:58:00,960
he's just spiraling and doing damage control. Now I wanted to play this video,

668
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:02,079
not because I have, And then
we're going to go to open for

669
00:58:02,199 --> 00:58:07,840
him any disputes or dislike of Kennedy
Hall. We've chatted kind of briefly on

670
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:19,360
Twitter in cordial ways, so I'm
not putting this up here to be sassy

671
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,119
in any way to him. I
don't have any disagreement with him on a

672
00:58:23,159 --> 00:58:28,119
personal level. Obviously we disagree because
he's I think he attends the SSPX.

673
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,360
But I thought there was some interesting
admissions that we have here from Kennedy here

674
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:36,119
in this clip, in this video
just a few minutes here just to kind

675
00:58:36,159 --> 00:58:40,039
of catch up with some of the
Roman Catholics see what they're saying, and

676
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:45,719
Kennedy admits that things are getting pretty
wild. I just have the language that

677
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,880
he uses, not just I'm not
trying to start smoke. I mean again,

678
00:58:50,119 --> 00:58:52,840
I don't have anything. We've had
cordial interaction. I think he's a

679
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,960
nice guy, but the language that
he uses here I thought was pretty wild

680
00:58:58,679 --> 00:59:02,719
standing. We have people defending that
as if it's going to be okay,

681
00:59:04,199 --> 00:59:08,480
and then those same people will condemn
traditionalists as being against the truth of the

682
00:59:08,559 --> 00:59:13,800
faith. We had a men's conference
over the weekend. It was amazing.

683
00:59:14,079 --> 00:59:15,360
You can check out my talk that's
on my channel. It's called Lived not

684
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,760
by lies. I'm working on getting
the other talks uploaded. It takes a

685
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,480
lot of work to get them medaed
and the audio video alls kind of things.

686
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:22,760
I'm an amateur of those things,
so I just sort of do it.

687
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:29,199
We can't point being It was an
amazing weekend and my talk was about

688
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:34,320
we just have to stop living by
lies, and we can't just we can't

689
00:59:34,519 --> 00:59:37,960
just say, well, I don't
accept the lies and I won't say them.

690
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,760
We have to say I will always
tell the truth. And it's so

691
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,119
refreshing. There was over two hundred
men there, the only traditional cat of

692
00:59:45,199 --> 00:59:46,320
men's conference in North America. We're
going to have to figure out maybe a

693
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:52,159
bigger venue or something. You get
who were hooting and hollering and cheering on

694
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,400
the idea that we should just simply
tell the truth. And that's why we're

695
00:59:54,480 --> 01:00:00,039
in the mess that we're in is
because people have swallowed these lies and I

696
01:00:00,079 --> 01:00:05,159
have truths for so many decades and
they're afraid to speak the truth. We're

697
01:00:05,239 --> 01:00:08,480
now at the point where we are
so riddled with insanity in the church on

698
01:00:08,559 --> 01:00:13,920
behalf of those who run the church, that these absolute crazy people are having

699
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,320
these ceremonies which are a mockery to
God and calling the people who preside over

700
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,119
them as heroes. And we have
the pope defending egregious, sacrilegious blasphemis or

701
01:00:22,159 --> 01:00:28,920
ratical notions of blessing things that God
cannot bless and if you stand up to

702
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:34,039
that, you're canceled. I'm blacklisted
in my diocese. I can't speak in

703
01:00:34,159 --> 01:00:37,440
my diocese. I can't get a
letter of pastoral approval or whatever because I

704
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:39,599
don't go to a parish run by
the diocese. Because I can't go to

705
01:00:39,639 --> 01:00:43,519
a parish run by the diocese.
I go to an SSBX chapel, and

706
01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:45,719
I can't go to a perish from
by the diocese. Because there's not a

707
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,239
single parish in my entire diocese where
I will not have to submit myself or

708
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,320
my children to some of this liberal
insanity that has imbibed every single aspect of

709
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,920
the Catholic faith. Well, now, wait a minute. If liberalism and

710
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,440
apostacy have imbibed every single as inpect
an avenue of the Roman Catholic Faith,

711
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:09,639
then how is Vatican One still true
that the See of Rome is the unfailing

712
01:01:12,639 --> 01:01:17,960
source of unity, preservation and truth
when it comes to morals and theology.

713
01:01:19,119 --> 01:01:23,559
That is the Vatican one dogmatic position. And you notice that apart from all

714
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:28,360
of the nuances of the specifics of
canon law, because anytime you talk to

715
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,280
an SSPX person, they're going to
go all, we got to go look

716
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:34,679
at this canon law, and there's
an extreme mess in the in emergency cases

717
01:01:34,679 --> 01:01:40,480
and blah blah blah. Setting aside
the pursu stry of canon law. The

718
01:01:40,639 --> 01:01:46,719
very terminology that all the trads and
the SSPX use it self betrays that they

719
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:52,639
don't believe Vatican One. They will
speak of the Novasorto Church as a false

720
01:01:52,719 --> 01:01:59,239
church, an anti church, an
apostate church. But that's Rome you see.

721
01:02:00,679 --> 01:02:05,679
And he admits in the video that
Vatican two does teach actual heresy.

722
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,840
Now I think it teaches heresy in
multiple places. But one of those places

723
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:14,480
which I agree with Kennedy, is
the doctrine of religious liberty, which is

724
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:20,679
an absolute, clear contradiction from all
the previous papal dogmatic statements against religious liberty,

725
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,840
condemned as a Protestant Masonic doctrine.
So Kennedy admits that in the position.

726
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:30,239
And again, remember it's not that
we're trying to highlight the differences amongst

727
01:02:30,239 --> 01:02:34,960
the trad Cats just to be arbitrary. Yeah, you could find differences amongst

728
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:39,039
Orthodox, but the difference is that
for the trad Cats, remember, and

729
01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:44,320
for the regular Novisordo and all the
Roman Catholics, the office of the papacy

730
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:49,679
itself is the solution and the answer
to all the things that they criticize Orthodox

731
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:57,559
and Protestants about. And yet when
they explain the papacy the last seventy years,

732
01:02:58,639 --> 01:03:05,360
it is a pasta evil, demonic, source of evil, source of

733
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,920
division, source of confusion. Wait
a minute, so the thing that is

734
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:12,960
the source of unity and certitude and
preservation is also the source of division,

735
01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:17,239
confusion, and apostasy. Okay,
that's a contradiction. So notice the way

736
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:23,360
he speaks. Just a fact,
and this is the totalitarianism. This is

737
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:30,599
a totalitarianism. They must reject those
who stand for the truth, and they

738
01:03:30,679 --> 01:03:34,239
must castigate them to the exterior darkness, whereas there's the weeping and gnashing of

739
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:40,440
teeth, and they must submit them
to humiliation and castigation and ridicule because they

740
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:45,159
have no way of combating the arguments
of those individuals. Because the individuals who

741
01:03:45,159 --> 01:03:50,480
are ridiculed unfairly by the church officials
are simply telling the truth. They did

742
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,079
it with Archbishop Lefev and they do
with every person who even stands in a

743
01:03:53,159 --> 01:03:59,639
way like he did. Look,
they did the Bishop Sneider, Bishop Schneider,

744
01:03:59,639 --> 01:04:00,679
and I mean, and he would
say this. He's not even a

745
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,840
traditionalist. He just had the audacity
to say, you know, some of

746
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:08,800
this stuff coming out of Rome,
this is insane. And he's gone.

747
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:12,079
A bunch of other bishops in Latin
America this has happened to them as well.

748
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,719
The church is run by crazy people, my friends, So what are

749
01:04:15,719 --> 01:04:17,679
you gonna do? Wait a minute. The church is run, according to

750
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:25,960
Vatican One, by the infallible successor
to Peter, who has the keys,

751
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:32,360
universal jurisdiction and quote never failing faith. So how do we have then seventy

752
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:36,800
years of the church is quote run
by crazy people. If you go read

753
01:04:38,119 --> 01:04:40,880
the fifteen pages of Vatican One,
if you were to print it out.

754
01:04:42,039 --> 01:04:45,159
And then Kennedy Hall goes on to
talk about very and I would agree with

755
01:04:45,239 --> 01:04:48,480
him. Obviously, the things going
on in the Romancolic Church are driving the

756
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:55,280
Tracats and Romancholics insane, and it
is run by crazy people. Because that's

757
01:04:55,360 --> 01:05:00,280
the self evident. I'm joking that
it's self evident. They believe in self

758
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:03,000
evidence, right, So isn't it
self evident that Francis is insane? Let's

759
01:05:03,039 --> 01:05:05,920
just go look at the evidence.
Let's just go look. The evidence is

760
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:10,440
self evident. The evidence means what
it says, and it says what it

761
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:14,400
means. And Francis is an absolute
louone. The rest of the goon cardinals

762
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:21,000
in Rome the goblins. So Kennedy's
absolutely one percent right. However, Vatican

763
01:05:21,079 --> 01:05:32,559
one say that about the papacy,
and I'm going to remind the Roman Catholics,

764
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:40,159
who ninety eight percent of them have
not read Vatican One. We're just

765
01:05:40,199 --> 01:05:45,039
gonna remind them again to go print
out the decrees of Vatican One from papal

766
01:05:45,079 --> 01:05:48,519
and cyclicals not net comes out to
about ten fifteen pages. It's not that

767
01:05:48,679 --> 01:05:51,880
hard, it's not that long.
If you're serious about your religion, you

768
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:57,679
should at least be familiar with what
Vatican one actually says. And for people

769
01:05:57,719 --> 01:06:02,440
that are considering Roman Catholicism, maybe
you need to know what the dogmas of

770
01:06:02,519 --> 01:06:12,480
Vatican one are because it's supposed to
be clear, right, I mean,

771
01:06:12,519 --> 01:06:15,960
at least The argumentation of Vatican One
is that, look, it's obvious the

772
01:06:16,039 --> 01:06:27,480
papacy has a magisterial role. It
is the essence of the magisterium. It's

773
01:06:27,559 --> 01:06:32,159
infallible not just in its extraordinary pronouncements, but also in its universal ordinary pronouncements.

774
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:38,960
So therefore it cannot err and it
cannot air to the extent that it

775
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:45,880
would lose any of its essential fundamental
constituents. Right, So, for example,

776
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,360
it can never fail to be the
case that the c of Peter has

777
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:51,480
successors until the end of the world. Vatican One says, so that counsels

778
01:06:51,519 --> 01:06:58,199
out seventy years of vacant sea,
all set of a concious quacks and loans.

779
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,239
It says that can never use that
lose that visible unity. That visible

780
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:06,239
unity is summed up in its head
in Rome. So there can never be

781
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:11,000
a loss of unity in the Roman
Calolic Church. Uh oh uh oh.

782
01:07:13,639 --> 01:07:16,880
There can never be a loss of
the magisterial office in jurisdiction, which is

783
01:07:17,159 --> 01:07:23,840
only had in communion with the Pope
of Rome. So if there's been no

784
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,400
Pope of Rome, for example,
or if the papacy has been thwarted or

785
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,679
whatever, then now that would throw
into question jurisdiction for the rest of the

786
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,719
bishops of the world, Well,
the rest of the bishops in the world

787
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:40,639
have a questionable jurisdiction. Then we've
now lost the public witness of the unity

788
01:07:41,079 --> 01:07:44,440
and continuity of the Roman Calolic Church
throughout history. You see, you see

789
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:49,239
how the constituent elements of the papacy
are undermined. The more a person becomes

790
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:55,320
tradcat because the more you become tradcat, the more that you're admitting Roman i

791
01:07:55,360 --> 01:08:05,280
mean, Orthodox positions. And that's
why the Alexandria Document is so excellent because

792
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:11,960
it essentially it admits all of this
for us, and we did a whole

793
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:15,599
livestream on it. Romancolics haven't even
addressed it. They've been super quiet about

794
01:08:15,639 --> 01:08:19,000
it. Oh I just don't even
care. I'm sure you don't care because

795
01:08:19,039 --> 01:08:23,920
it admits all of ours. Oh
well, it's not infallible. So where

796
01:08:24,039 --> 01:08:28,279
is the idea that something has to
be quote infallible for the pope to be

797
01:08:29,119 --> 01:08:31,600
in error or heresy? See,
this is just another thing they make up.

798
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:40,720
They make up these new criteria that
oh well, Francis didn't infallibly define

799
01:08:41,239 --> 01:08:45,039
the Alexandria Document, so it doesn't
count even though it emits ninety percent of

800
01:08:45,079 --> 01:08:53,000
the Orthodox arguments. Yeah, but
in your own position, can I be

801
01:08:53,079 --> 01:09:01,399
a Roman Catholic and reject multiple dogmas? No, you can't. You cease

802
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:05,079
being a Roman Catholic when you deny
at least even one dogma. That's what

803
01:09:05,199 --> 01:09:08,840
Pius the twelfth in lee of the
thirteenth State, and they're encyclicals. You

804
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,439
can't deny one dogma and remain a
Roman Catholic. You can call yourself a

805
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,279
Roman Catholic, but you're not in
fact a Roman Catholic, because by denying

806
01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:23,039
the dogmas you now become something else, Protestant, Orthodox, heretic, sectarian,

807
01:09:23,159 --> 01:09:31,840
whatever, Old Catholic, Anglican.
And if if making something quote infallible

808
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,600
was a prerequisite to being a heretic, then no one could be a heretic

809
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:41,960
but the Pope. That's how stupid
this argument is when they say, yeah,

810
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,760
it doesn't count though, because Francis
didn't make it infallible. Infallibility has

811
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:50,760
nothing to do with whether what he
says is heretical or not. For example,

812
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:55,760
when the six Secumentical Council condemned Pope
Honorius, did they all sit around

813
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,199
and say, well, but did
he say it infallibly. No, they

814
01:09:59,239 --> 01:10:02,680
don't even care, literally nothing to
do with no concern at all. First

815
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,119
of all, because they didn't think
that the bishop room was infallible anyway,

816
01:10:06,399 --> 01:10:13,600
because they condemned Pope Honoria's right.
So this is a total red hearing when

817
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:17,319
they start talking about it doesn't matter. By the way, Vatican two is

818
01:10:17,359 --> 01:10:21,439
infallible. So you're in an even
worse position if you try to go that

819
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:28,119
route. If you guys would hit
like and share, we're going to open

820
01:10:28,159 --> 01:10:30,600
it up. Now we covered two
of the areas. I'd have one last

821
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:39,920
little gem here which was going around, which is the Chicken Novasorto. The

822
01:10:40,039 --> 01:10:45,359
chicken novas Orto. And I don't
even know what this is, but it

823
01:10:45,479 --> 01:11:05,920
is a thing. I mean,
just look at the church. It doesn't

824
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,319
even look like I mean, it's
not even recognizable as anything other than a

825
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:14,359
ridiculous Protestant church, right, I
mean the Novsorto churches, like ninety percent

826
01:11:14,399 --> 01:11:17,079
of them that are built look like
Protestant lecture halls. So I mean that

827
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:20,399
alone tells you that this is not
the same religion of the first thousand years

828
01:11:20,399 --> 01:11:25,800
of Christianity. And to act like
this is the same as Orthodox or something

829
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:29,000
that's ridiculous. I mean, and
this is this is this is the the

830
01:11:29,119 --> 01:11:33,000
Novsorto is the normative Roman Catholic world. Okay, all of these Roman Catholic

831
01:11:33,039 --> 01:11:39,479
pap apologists that are all Uniates,
they don't even go to the normal Novasorto

832
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:43,479
Roman Catholic churches because they know it's
a joke. And Kennedy Hall is at

833
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,960
least on us enough to say this
is preposterous, it's apostasy. Yeah,

834
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:51,399
but the posteses coming from the infallible
head himself. So therefore Romantholicism is not

835
01:11:51,439 --> 01:12:02,600
true about a hint, one's false. Now you'll notice in Kennedy Hall's video,

836
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,439
by the way, and I'll give
you the I've already exit it out.

837
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:13,279
He says that the Roman Catholic has
the advantage of conforming his intellect to

838
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:17,479
reality, and by conforming to reality, you have a basis to reject the

839
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:21,720
woke mob because reality can't be redefined
by your system. Well guess what,

840
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:27,920
Kennedy, that same critique applies to
your track Catholicism, because your track Catholicism

841
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:31,720
has to combat the reality of Vatican
One, which says that you can't have

842
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:36,560
seventy plus years of apostate papacy.
So conform your reality, your intellect to

843
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:43,239
the reality of the facts. That
this is what the nova sorto and normal

844
01:12:43,319 --> 01:12:47,239
Roman Catholicism actually is. You understand
this, This is what Francis has absolutely

845
01:12:47,279 --> 01:12:51,800
no problem with. But Francis wants
to ban the Latin Mass, which shows

846
01:12:51,840 --> 01:13:00,800
that Francis doesn't even care about even
loosely maintaining the Roman Catholic tradition. So

847
01:13:01,359 --> 01:13:05,279
why do you even have a problem
with the chicken Mass. What's the problem

848
01:13:05,359 --> 01:13:15,039
with the chicken novasorto? When the
Chiady document admits the Orthodox positions, and

849
01:13:15,079 --> 01:13:19,119
the Alexandria document, built on the
Chiady document mits ten times more Orthodox positions,

850
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:24,640
So this just means that Vatican one
is not true, and the Vatican

851
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:27,880
one is not true, then the
Roman Catholic system falls because it's a system

852
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:32,640
wherein you can't have dogmas canceled out
and being wrong. Well, actually,

853
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,760
in the Roman Catholic system you can
because it evolves, and so the dogmas

854
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:44,199
can be revised and restated to be
whatever you want. But you get my

855
01:13:44,319 --> 01:13:46,000
point, though, is that if
you've adopted that, then you've adopted a

856
01:13:46,399 --> 01:13:51,079
evolving, absolutely contradictory position, and
now everything evolves, including the laws of

857
01:13:51,119 --> 01:13:54,840
logic, and you can never even
say anything's false. So if you want

858
01:13:54,880 --> 01:14:00,640
to go this route of ever evolving, never fixed, static propositions and truths,

859
01:14:01,319 --> 01:14:04,760
then Rome is where you want to
be, because it'll evolve tomorrow to

860
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:11,279
be not just blessings for skittles,
but blessings for everything you can think of.

861
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,000
That's the next phase. All right, We're gonna open it up to

862
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:21,199
the forum. When I give you
the microphone. That means you unmute yourself

863
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:30,319
and you can bring your arguments,
bring your challenges. What are my comments

864
01:14:30,359 --> 01:14:33,239
on the debate with Jake? I
already talked about the debate with Jake beginning

865
01:14:33,279 --> 01:14:46,560
of this. Let's see who's up
first. Demetrios, Hello, yes,

866
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:54,159
sir, all right, speaking of
static instagnation, one of the common arguments

867
01:14:54,199 --> 01:15:00,760
you'll get recently, within the past, let's say thirty years, from Catholic

868
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:05,159
and Calvinist types is the Orthodox Church
is in stagnation. We're trapped in the

869
01:15:05,239 --> 01:15:10,279
ninth century. Even our art work
is trapped in the ninth century. Like

870
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:15,079
Pep'll say, like, yeah,
you're true to the faith. But speaking

871
01:15:15,119 --> 01:15:19,960
of and I'm touching base on the
evolving static kind of topic you're addressing just

872
01:15:20,079 --> 01:15:25,479
now recently, what would your answer
to be if I was a you know,

873
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:30,399
reform Calvinist type and or Catholic and
came up, Yeah, you guys

874
01:15:30,399 --> 01:15:34,039
are true of the faith. You
know your your trinitarianism is hardcore more than

875
01:15:34,079 --> 01:15:36,159
most. But you know, you
guys are static, You're stuck in the

876
01:15:36,239 --> 01:15:42,359
ninth century. What's the what's the
answer to someone like that? Absolutely,

877
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:45,560
and we're proud of it. And
I would say that if the faith was

878
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:47,640
once for all delivered to the saints, as the New Testament says, the

879
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:51,199
Book of Jude says, then why
do we want to evolve and have some

880
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:58,439
other thing? So explication of doctrine
is different from the development or evolution of

881
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:03,840
doctrine. So Roman believe in the
evolution of doctrine to some degree to explain

882
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:11,600
new doctrines or things that evolve over
time. Like they think that icons are

883
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:15,479
something that is some sort of weird
evolution that occurs. Can you mute when

884
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:19,439
you're not talking? It's a loud
background. I have a lot background,

885
01:16:20,319 --> 01:16:26,319
right, okay, right? Yeah, So we don't want to evolve,

886
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:29,680
right, And if you read the
councils. For example, when the canons

887
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:33,960
begin of the councils, they they
always stress holding the same faith as our

888
01:16:34,039 --> 01:16:41,399
forebearers and our forefathers, holding the
same ideas and canons that came before.

889
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:48,239
Okay, that's maintaining the same truths, right, that's presupposing and maintaining the

890
01:16:48,279 --> 01:16:57,680
same truth without the idea that they
evolve. Go ahead, gotcha, gotcha,

891
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,439
gotcha. I was just interested in
your respond to. The second thing

892
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:06,520
is more of like an observation.
You know, Calvinists at their best probably

893
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:12,479
represent five percent of Christianity at the
most. You know, they're a small

894
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:17,920
portion even of Protestants. Do you
think I don't think it's a coincidence when

895
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:23,760
you know, mainstream media, whether
it's in the nineties, Larry King having

896
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:30,039
John MacArthur on for interviews or Christopher
Hitching deciding he's going to do a book

897
01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:34,239
tour in a movie with Doug Wilson, do you think these you know,

898
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:43,439
atheistic types onbelievers specifically pick Calvinists on
purpose just to make Christians look crazy.

899
01:17:45,119 --> 01:17:46,880
That could be a motivation there.
That's a good a good idea. I

900
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,960
never thought about that, Like,
why wouldn't they choose you know, really

901
01:17:50,279 --> 01:17:59,000
educated people from other traditions. But
also because around that time and even up

902
01:17:59,079 --> 01:18:02,680
till now, you'll find that what
people that are really active on the Internet

903
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:09,079
are people like Calvinists, right,
So reform Zoomer for example, even though

904
01:18:09,199 --> 01:18:15,560
his sect is a tiny fraction of
American you know, religious believers, you

905
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,359
know, he's getting massive amounts of
views, and so you know he needs

906
01:18:18,399 --> 01:18:23,640
to be addressed. But in actual
fact, you know, Calvinists are like

907
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,439
minuscule, right when it comes to
the religious beliefs of the West and of

908
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:30,920
America. So yeah, I wouldn't
be surprised that there wasn't some ulterior motivation

909
01:18:31,119 --> 01:18:36,119
to pick some kook or some quack
or some you know loon to be the

910
01:18:36,199 --> 01:18:41,039
representative. Makes perfect sense. I
mean that, for example, atheists loved

911
01:18:41,039 --> 01:18:45,960
to do this with remember Fed Phelps, right, I mean they love that

912
01:18:46,079 --> 01:18:51,560
guy, right, He's like a
wet dream to the left. Yeah.

913
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:58,560
Yeah, And the last observation we
had touched about touched on this a bit

914
01:19:00,039 --> 01:19:02,720
angelic. Sin. Now I want
to come back to this as it pertains

915
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:11,680
to Calvinism, because you know,
these you know, deterministic types are always

916
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,359
saying that you know, we have
free will, but we only can choose

917
01:19:14,399 --> 01:19:21,159
evil. We're guilty from birth.
And if you think about it, if

918
01:19:21,199 --> 01:19:26,720
you think about it, Calvinists they
don't even believe what they preach. I

919
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:31,199
mean, show me the first Calvinist
mother and father that deliver their baby in

920
01:19:31,279 --> 01:19:34,760
the hospital and they hold it in
their hands and they look at the baby

921
01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:39,720
and they say, this thing is
damnable. I mean, get serious.

922
01:19:40,039 --> 01:19:43,640
I mean, like, so getting
back to angelic sin. You know,

923
01:19:45,199 --> 01:19:47,680
angels did not you know, they
didn't sit in the Garden of Eden.

924
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:56,000
Yet they willed evil. They chose
and they were immediately you know. You

925
01:19:56,039 --> 01:19:59,279
know, even Christ said, you
know, I saw Satan fall like a

926
01:19:59,319 --> 01:20:05,039
bolt of lightning in the timeless,
in the timeless an. So I mean

927
01:20:05,239 --> 01:20:10,800
just that alone, the fact of
the judgment of the angels and their will,

928
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:15,800
uh, free will to send and
immediately judge because they're the timeless an.

929
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:21,399
Uh. I think in some way
we need to write an article on

930
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:27,600
this or something, because I think
in some way this shows that this original

931
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:30,720
guilt. And you know, uh, fine, we all believe that we

932
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:33,640
have free will, but we're not
autonomous. You know, God's in charge,

933
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:38,640
He's sovereign, but this thing like
yeah, okay, yeah, I'm

934
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,520
not I'm not trying to Yeah,
I agree with you. I agree with

935
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:45,000
you. That's a great point.
And uh, for those that are watching

936
01:20:45,039 --> 01:20:50,039
the live stream, yeah, this
is the Mayandorf critique of Augustine, and

937
01:20:50,119 --> 01:20:58,880
he makes a really good point about
Augustine misunderstanding the passage in Romans five about

938
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:02,319
willing, and that he misunderstood and
read everybody in Adam as in an archetype,

939
01:21:02,319 --> 01:21:05,319
which was his platonic presupposition there.
So actually they have a kind of

940
01:21:05,359 --> 01:21:11,600
a platonic presupposition the Calvinists do without
even knowing it. And this is a

941
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,640
great article. It goes into the
mistaking confusing natural will with no mc will.

942
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:20,880
I mean, imagine if we started
asking Calvinists like does Christ have a

943
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:28,279
fallen will? Right? I think
that would be totally lost on that It

944
01:21:28,319 --> 01:21:30,039
would be really easy to refute them
on that point. But you can read

945
01:21:30,079 --> 01:21:35,479
that Mindorf article right there which I
referenced earlier about refuting Augustina's mistake on Romans

946
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:42,720
five, and that right there would
actually clear up probably seventy percent of Redeemed

947
01:21:42,760 --> 01:22:00,319
Zoomer's mistake. Sapphire Gotta, I'm
mute, I'm mute. Hello, Hey,

948
01:22:00,399 --> 01:22:02,039
what's up man? Yeah, I
didn't really come here to debate you

949
01:22:02,079 --> 01:22:05,560
because you probably destroy me. But
I just had a few questions. Okay,

950
01:22:06,039 --> 01:22:10,520
let's me get quick because we're given
disagreeers the floria go ahead. Yeah,

951
01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:14,159
yeah, of course, of course, can non Orthodox people be saved?

952
01:22:14,199 --> 01:22:19,119
I'm very ignorant about Orthodox theology.
Well, God has the means by

953
01:22:19,159 --> 01:22:23,720
which he can unite people to Christ
outside of what we know, but no

954
01:22:24,319 --> 01:22:28,720
non Orthodox person can be saved apart
from being united to the mystical body.

955
01:22:29,199 --> 01:22:31,199
So if Christ has I mean,
if you look at the thief on the

956
01:22:31,239 --> 01:22:33,720
cross, right, we see that
it is possible for God to do that.

957
01:22:34,119 --> 01:22:40,880
But yeah, so as long as
someone accepts the Christ as their savior,

958
01:22:41,039 --> 01:22:44,840
are they saved? No, we
don't make that judgment. So I

959
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:46,640
can't say that they are that they
aren't. We're not told that. I

960
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:49,239
say, so, only God knows
in totality who is and isn't saved.

961
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:54,960
Correct. But also just quote accepting
Jesus as kind of ambiguous, because even

962
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:58,239
in the New Testament, there's no
idea that you just like, you know,

963
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:00,159
say a sinner's prayer or something like
that. That's a Protestant idea.

964
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:03,520
No, I get that, because
like Matthew seven twenty three, there's the

965
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:09,600
people who worked iniquity but claim to
be followers like Jesus himself. Worn't about

966
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:11,960
that, well, I mean there's
also the command to be baptized, to

967
01:23:12,039 --> 01:23:15,439
repent, to enter the church,
to the liturgy. So you have all

968
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:17,840
kinds of things that we're asked to
do. Yeah, I'm not trying to

969
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:23,199
like expose myself. I'm currently a
Methodist, but I'm thinking of changing my

970
01:23:23,319 --> 01:23:27,359
faith to Catholicism or Orthodoxy. I
recently went to a Catholic church and it

971
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:30,000
was a really nice experience. So
I'm trying to get more to the roots

972
01:23:30,039 --> 01:23:32,600
of a Christ actually teached. You
know. Yeah, well was it the

973
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:38,359
was it at a Chick fil A? No? No, it was uh

974
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:40,640
yeah, no, it wasn't like
that German church. Dude, Well,

975
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:43,720
you can go to the Chicken Mass
in Germany and basically just be like going

976
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:46,720
to Chick fil A for church.
So but but look, it's not liberal.

977
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:51,279
It's the traditional Chick fil A liturgy. So it's a traditional chicken liturgy.

978
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:56,039
Don't listen to the liberals, don't
listen to the liberals out there that

979
01:23:56,079 --> 01:23:59,520
lib tards saying that this is some
sort of new modernist Chicken liturgy. It's

980
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:03,319
absolute the traditional Chicken rite. Before
we head off, and let you know,

981
01:24:03,760 --> 01:24:09,079
I just met a friend who's from
Germany, and although he's an atheist,

982
01:24:09,239 --> 01:24:13,760
like he straight have told me that
a Baptist church, like an American

983
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:16,159
Baptist church in Germany, felt more
authentic to him than the Catholic Church.

984
01:24:16,239 --> 01:24:19,920
Yeah, that's where we're at.
Yeah, I mean, like even when

985
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:23,039
I was, even when I was
a Roman Catholic, when I was a

986
01:24:23,079 --> 01:24:29,159
trad cat, even back then in
two thousand and like four, the typical

987
01:24:29,279 --> 01:24:33,760
Episcopal and Anglican churches even then were
more reverent and more quote traditional in terms

988
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:39,039
of the out exterior than a lot
of the novasorto. It's exactly, I

989
01:24:39,119 --> 01:24:42,439
mean, because it's there's an agenda
being pushed here and it's so obvious.

990
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,399
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. But
here's the thing, though, is that

991
01:24:45,039 --> 01:24:49,840
that agenda is not being pushed by
liberals. It's not being pushed by random

992
01:24:50,319 --> 01:24:55,239
weirdos. It's being pushed by the
people that run the church aka the Roman

993
01:24:55,319 --> 01:24:57,640
see. And if you just read
vatic in one, you don't have the

994
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:01,640
right to disagree with the liturgical rights
promulgated upon the entire Church by Rome.

995
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:06,199
That's in Noctorum fe Dae, which
is repeated not verbatim the Vatican One,

996
01:25:06,239 --> 01:25:12,079
but the principles of Vatican One.
Repeat the idea that's expressed in Octorum Feede

997
01:25:12,159 --> 01:25:16,319
against the Jansenists that you can call
into question the liturgical rights that the Roman

998
01:25:16,399 --> 01:25:19,840
See has promulgated for the entire Church. So if you disagree with the Novis

999
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:24,600
Ordo, you're in the exact same
position as the Jansenists that are condemned in

1000
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:31,319
Doctorum fide. That's fascinating talking.
Thank you so much, good questions.

1001
01:25:33,279 --> 01:25:45,720
Let's see you. Next up is
a new v anov ain aov Hey,

1002
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:54,359
all right, so when we talk
about tag right and universals proving or presupposing

1003
01:25:54,399 --> 01:25:58,000
the existence of God, I'm kind
of confused as to how you would show

1004
01:25:58,079 --> 01:26:03,560
that logic proves the exist things so
good, Well, the way I like

1005
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:06,800
that. That's precisely why I like
to make the argument the way I do,

1006
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:12,520
which is to argue that tag is
really pre logical. Okay, So,

1007
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:15,399
and yeah, I recognize that you're
still using logic, but that's a

1008
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:20,439
category error, because that's why we
say that you can never escape the circularity

1009
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:25,880
of the metalogical question of asking how
does logic even work? How do we

1010
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:31,479
know logic works? So the logic
element of the argument is saying that prior

1011
01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:36,479
to the actual doing of like first
order argumentation that we normally do in logic,

1012
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:42,239
we're actually saying that this is a
prelogical question about how is logic even

1013
01:26:42,319 --> 01:26:45,039
possible at all? So that's all
that's all metalogic means is how do we

1014
01:26:45,119 --> 01:26:49,279
know logic itself works? How do
we know logic is logical? And there's

1015
01:26:49,359 --> 01:26:53,880
nothing wrong with asking that question.
It's a whole branch of philosophy. It's

1016
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:57,680
called meta loogic. You could say
it's part of metaphysics even right, So

1017
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:00,960
that the idea that I make this
up is just ignorance, right, It's

1018
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:04,880
not made up. So I'm just
taking a discipline meta logic or a domain

1019
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:09,279
of epistemology metaphysics, and I'm saying
that this is relevant for how we do

1020
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:13,760
tag because we're saying that, prior
to the doing of any argumentation at all,

1021
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:18,319
there are preconditions for the possibility of
logic, right, And that would

1022
01:27:18,359 --> 01:27:24,119
be in my argument, God himself, God and the specific theology that we

1023
01:27:24,239 --> 01:27:29,279
have in our tradition is the grounding
for the possibility of logic. Now,

1024
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,800
I'm not arguing that it's true because
I said that. I'm arguing that it

1025
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:39,840
actually does the work of explaining how
the transcendental categories are possible. So that's

1026
01:27:40,199 --> 01:27:44,600
that's It may sound fancy and obscure
whatever, it's not actually pretty simple if

1027
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:49,039
you just understand that it's an argument
about anything prior to argumentation. So I

1028
01:27:49,119 --> 01:27:56,000
guess the argument I've come into contact
with this is why can't these universals just

1029
01:27:56,239 --> 01:27:59,880
blinket exist? Like why can't nature
just be consistent? For number one,

1030
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:02,119
that it's arbitrary. So to say
something just is is to be arbitrary.

1031
01:28:02,279 --> 01:28:05,039
Just is what? And if you
can posit it in a debate that something

1032
01:28:05,159 --> 01:28:08,800
just is, so can I?
So? God just is? So just

1033
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:13,479
saying something is doesn't do the grounding
work. It's arbitrary. And also where

1034
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:15,920
are they? What are they?
Just? To say a universal is is

1035
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:20,239
to say absolutely nothing, and it
doesn't actually do any grounding work. I

1036
01:28:20,239 --> 01:28:24,680
mean, universals can exist in a
vacuum. Okay, in my view,

1037
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:29,319
they are grounded in the divine mind. And because I have an omniscient being

1038
01:28:30,119 --> 01:28:32,960
who is all knowing and is ever
you know, all provident, et cetera,

1039
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:36,640
that works to do the grounding.
I mean, it's a consistent,

1040
01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:41,000
coherent position. I'm not saying it's
true because I say that, I'm saying

1041
01:28:41,079 --> 01:28:45,199
that that makes sense. That's coherent. The position where there are no there

1042
01:28:45,319 --> 01:28:49,840
is no location or grounding or explanation
of what universals are. They're just asserting

1043
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:54,840
that it is doesn't do any grounding
work. So like, let me look

1044
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:57,760
at I think you answer the question
already, but I wrote it down anyway,

1045
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,680
I'm gonna ask. So we don't
need God to know that the sun's

1046
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:03,239
gonna rise tomorrow. That's just a
fact about nature. Right. How would

1047
01:29:03,239 --> 01:29:05,920
you respond to an atheists where they
say why do you need God anyway?

1048
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:12,800
Well, again, it's arguing that
you do ultimately need God to know that

1049
01:29:13,079 --> 01:29:20,960
because knowing knowing mundane facts is resting
on transcenal categories, and so what's the

1050
01:29:21,039 --> 01:29:26,800
grounding for the transcenal categories? So
the preconditions of knowledge, right, So

1051
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:30,079
you're that's a knowledge claim. I
know the sum will rise tomorrow. Okay,

1052
01:29:30,279 --> 01:29:31,479
but how do you know knowledge is
possible at all? So that's a

1053
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:36,880
prior claim to any empirical claim or
any knowledge claim. So when we're arguing

1054
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:44,319
about preconditions of knowledge, it's gonna
be more fundamental and prior, more prior

1055
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:48,399
to anything that's a knowledge claim.
So, yes, you do, you

1056
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:51,239
do need God? Let me let
me and let's be more. Let's be

1057
01:29:51,359 --> 01:29:55,560
clear what we mean by do I
need quote God to know the sum will

1058
01:29:55,640 --> 01:30:00,399
rise tomorrow? For epistemic justification,
you need the theology and the belief in

1059
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:05,159
God. It doesn't mean that atheists
don't have propositional knowledge about you know,

1060
01:30:05,399 --> 01:30:09,560
or beliefs about the sun rising tomorrow. It means justifying the knowledge, not

1061
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:13,319
do they have that belief for that
knowledge. It means they can't justify the

1062
01:30:13,399 --> 01:30:17,000
knowledge. So then okay, so
I guess, and let me explain the

1063
01:30:17,039 --> 01:30:24,119
difference there, because uh, do
I do I know that my car runs

1064
01:30:24,359 --> 01:30:30,239
on computer chips? Yes? Do? I Can I explain to you how

1065
01:30:30,319 --> 01:30:32,239
they work? No? Right,
so I don't. I can't explain the

1066
01:30:32,319 --> 01:30:36,000
how or I don't know what's going
on. But I can still drive my

1067
01:30:36,119 --> 01:30:41,520
car and have a knowledge of the
car running without knowing about the computer chips

1068
01:30:41,560 --> 01:30:45,479
that run the car or the computer. Right, So, in the same

1069
01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:50,239
way, can an atheist believe that
the sun will rise tomorrow? Yes,

1070
01:30:50,319 --> 01:30:54,960
but as David Hume says, as
a more consistent atheist, he cannot justify

1071
01:30:55,039 --> 01:31:00,479
that belief. So he can't justify
his own knowledge because correct, if X,

1072
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:02,239
then hy so, then why would
be the knowledge and actually be the

1073
01:31:02,279 --> 01:31:08,680
God? Right? Well, it's
even more basic than that. If you're

1074
01:31:09,319 --> 01:31:13,880
using David Hume's argument. David Hume
just simply says that the self, identity,

1075
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:16,520
over time, induction, none of
those laws of logic, none of

1076
01:31:16,560 --> 01:31:20,359
those sayings can be justified. You
just have to You don't have a basic

1077
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:25,159
that I thought you were going the
route was saying, because logic is objective,

1078
01:31:25,279 --> 01:31:28,640
right then for there to be any
objectivity, Well, what I would

1079
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:30,039
think is big, you need that, you need to have God. But

1080
01:31:30,119 --> 01:31:33,159
that's like I mean, ultimately,
ultimately you can get to that. It's

1081
01:31:33,239 --> 01:31:36,319
kind of a long way around,
but it's just it's even more simple than

1082
01:31:36,359 --> 01:31:41,039
that, just simply saying that an
atheist can't justify or give an account for

1083
01:31:41,199 --> 01:31:45,720
how knowledge is possible. That's David
Humes argument. M all right, so

1084
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:47,479
I'll look into that. Do you
do this often, like to ask a

1085
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:53,039
question next time? Yeah? Like
five years of it? Okay, Yeah,

1086
01:31:53,119 --> 01:31:56,000
good questions, man, I appreciate
it. Yeah, yeah, really

1087
01:31:56,000 --> 01:32:01,119
good questions. Let's see Hannibal hustle. Hannibal hustle. Thank you guys for

1088
01:32:01,199 --> 01:32:02,840
the super chats. We'll read.
Some of those are in the second.

1089
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:05,279
We've got a nice nine hundred.
I guess days streams are pretty good.

1090
01:32:05,279 --> 01:32:11,119
We get get more people than I'm
used to on a day stream. Yeah,

1091
01:32:11,239 --> 01:32:20,920
I'm mute, bra I'm mute,
dude. All right, he dropped

1092
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:29,159
off. Next up is uh now
again we're giving precedents to people who disagree.

1093
01:32:29,359 --> 01:32:34,920
Yeah, so if you'll see he's
back. Yeah, sorry about that.

1094
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,760
What's on your mind? Want to
ask a couple of questions about Orthodox

1095
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:45,039
theology? That's all, okay,
let's make it quick. So, like,

1096
01:32:45,279 --> 01:32:48,640
do you guys affirm that if someone
does more good deeds to get like

1097
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:54,600
more stuff and having like more rewards, greater rewards like and more wicked people

1098
01:32:54,720 --> 01:33:00,159
get like you know, more punishment
and hell for example. Uh, I

1099
01:33:00,199 --> 01:33:01,520
mean it's a little crass, like
you know, you're not We're not like

1100
01:33:01,640 --> 01:33:05,399
stacking. We're not stacking stats in
heaven, like stacking up my bigcoins in

1101
01:33:05,479 --> 01:33:10,000
heaven. I mean, but I
mean Jesus does say greater rewards greater punishment.

1102
01:33:10,079 --> 01:33:12,640
So yeah, Paul says it too. One star will shine brighter than

1103
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:17,720
another star. Yeah. Yeah.
So I have a question, Like let's

1104
01:33:17,720 --> 01:33:21,159
say we have like three people,
right, three brothers or something like that,

1105
01:33:23,319 --> 01:33:28,840
and I have one brother who's really
pious, right, and another brother

1106
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:31,920
who dies as a baby, and
another brother who's like wicked and like goes

1107
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:38,199
to Hell or something like that because
he's wicked, right, Okay, And

1108
01:33:38,359 --> 01:33:42,840
I mean everybody agrees that, like
baby's dying is like an evil right,

1109
01:33:43,039 --> 01:33:47,560
Like it's an evil thing. And
you know, like I guess we're like

1110
01:33:47,560 --> 01:33:53,039
the Day of Judgment or something like
God is talking to the baby and like

1111
01:33:53,119 --> 01:33:58,560
the baby says, hey God,
you know, like this was evil?

1112
01:33:58,560 --> 01:34:00,079
What occurred to me? Like if
I grew up, I would have been

1113
01:34:00,199 --> 01:34:03,479
like good, like my big brother
who grew up and he went to heaven

1114
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:08,399
and got all these good stuff and
I did it. Yeah. I mean,

1115
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:11,640
we don't typically like out of hand, uh you know, damn infants.

1116
01:34:11,680 --> 01:34:14,399
That's more of like a Protestant August
any of you. I'm not trying

1117
01:34:14,399 --> 01:34:15,800
to be reminant. I got to
move on though, because this is Look,

1118
01:34:16,039 --> 01:34:18,920
the answer your question is that only
crypto billionaires make it into Heaven.

1119
01:34:19,439 --> 01:34:30,600
Uh let's see Orthon Nerd. What's
up, dude? Got uh you?

1120
01:34:31,960 --> 01:34:40,319
Hey? I had a question.
I'm Orthodox cetic human and my aunt she's

1121
01:34:40,399 --> 01:34:46,640
like a big Joe MacArthur Presbyterian.
Yeah, how do I respond to like

1122
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:51,399
predestination because that's her whole argument for
like the Bible canon, why it was

1123
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:56,479
changed and everything. How do we
refute any of that? You don't you

1124
01:34:56,640 --> 01:34:59,159
just uh do you know how to
do you know how to do uh like

1125
01:34:59,279 --> 01:35:05,399
really hard umping like this, like
like like clicking. So you just wait

1126
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:09,199
to wait till your mom's over there
doing the dishes, walk up behind and

1127
01:35:09,279 --> 01:35:15,520
go just just just do a big
thump. Try todd some sense into her.

1128
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:19,920
No, just just do it,
not even for any reason. Just

1129
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:24,720
do it. I'm just joking,
man, what's the question. I have

1130
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:28,920
a bunch of videos on predestination,
so are on Calvinism and all that.

1131
01:35:29,079 --> 01:35:40,039
So uh yeah, my buddy,
Uh, what's his book called? Just

1132
01:35:40,079 --> 01:35:46,239
type in Orthodox comma Calvinist comma predestination, And one of my buddies wrote a

1133
01:35:46,239 --> 01:35:49,640
book and I can't remember the toddle
of the book now, but it should

1134
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:57,079
come up. I think his name
is uh Jeremy, uh Kitif Kitiff Kitif.

1135
01:35:57,239 --> 01:35:59,840
That's a joke. By the way, don't thump your mom. Don't

1136
01:36:00,159 --> 01:36:01,479
get into flick battles with your mom. Tell your mom to hold out her

1137
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:09,119
fist and tell her if she can't
stand twenty of your thumps, then predestination's

1138
01:36:09,159 --> 01:36:12,920
falls. That's how you prove it. What's up doing? U? Mute?

1139
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:26,560
So remember a request to speak?
You unmute? Kai Tiff? Do

1140
01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:35,640
you want to speak? You gotta
unmute? Are you there? Hello?

1141
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:40,880
You gotta turn your mic on.
Man, I don't know. I can't

1142
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:43,640
hear you no sound. Try to
turn your mic on. Come back,

1143
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:46,159
come back out and come back in. Next. Up is from a point

1144
01:36:46,199 --> 01:36:50,439
of view? What's up from a
point of view? Thank you guys for

1145
01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:54,319
the super Chat's having fun today?
Nine hundred in the middle of the day.

1146
01:36:54,439 --> 01:36:58,880
Interesting. So I guess more people
are on the internet at freaking two

1147
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:05,000
o'clock and then they are at ten
o'clock. So Hi, can you hear

1148
01:37:05,039 --> 01:37:09,920
me? Yes? Sir, I
don't hey, what's up? Say?

1149
01:37:10,039 --> 01:37:15,319
It's nice talking to you again.
I didn't want to take up too much

1150
01:37:15,359 --> 01:37:18,800
of your time because I know that
you want to get two more people who

1151
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:25,239
actually disagree with you. But could
you have a few minutes to answer my

1152
01:37:25,359 --> 01:37:30,880
question? Okay? Well, I
don't want to be like starting this sell

1153
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:36,039
from a down or note. But
see, my grandmother she passed away this

1154
01:37:36,159 --> 01:37:44,079
week on a few days ago,
and we just had her funeral on Wednesday,

1155
01:37:44,199 --> 01:37:50,439
and I'm sorry, just launched it, thank you, and I just

1156
01:37:50,560 --> 01:37:57,439
want to know. I don't know
if this is an important but what would

1157
01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:04,239
be the Orthodox Christian if one on
euthanasia? For example? And to give

1158
01:38:04,359 --> 01:38:14,560
context, because my grandmother, she's
self a fun severe case of dementia for

1159
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:18,680
many years, so she was slowly
starting to forget who she was, who

1160
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:24,560
a lot of the people around who
were and yeah, and slowly was developing

1161
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:28,279
many of the diseases like not being
able to move, not being able to

1162
01:38:28,399 --> 01:38:33,159
eat or speak, and in her
final few weeks being alive, she was

1163
01:38:34,159 --> 01:38:39,920
I mean, you can pretty much
categorize her as the vegetables. So it

1164
01:38:40,079 --> 01:38:44,479
was yeah, I think I think
that the typical answer is that's a great

1165
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:46,880
question, and sorry for your loss. I think typically we were pretty much

1166
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:53,359
against euthanasia at all in all forms, except you know, there might be

1167
01:38:53,399 --> 01:38:59,159
a situation which not necessarily euthanasia,
where somebody makes the decision to you know,

1168
01:38:59,319 --> 01:39:01,439
no longer continue, I don't know, life support or something. That's

1169
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:08,760
a decision that people who are bioethicists, and there are Orthodox bioethicists. Tristram

1170
01:39:09,239 --> 01:39:14,680
Inglehart, for example, was a
famous Orthodox bioethicist for many years. He

1171
01:39:15,159 --> 01:39:18,199
passed away. I forget what you're
not too long ago. But so there's

1172
01:39:18,239 --> 01:39:21,439
there's other people who have that role, and so that would be somebody that

1173
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:25,359
you would ask that kind of question
to you, because it's not I don't

1174
01:39:25,359 --> 01:39:29,239
have any training in bioethics, but
I would say that generally speaking, Orthodoxy

1175
01:39:29,399 --> 01:39:35,039
definitely as opposed to euthanasia. Partique, what's up? We're gonna party like

1176
01:39:35,119 --> 01:39:47,960
it's nineteen ninety nine. You know, I'm mute, bro? Yeah?

1177
01:39:48,039 --> 01:39:53,760
Hi, Hey, what's something here? Yeah? Yeah. So first of

1178
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:59,640
all, I'm a big fan of
Rachel and Andrew. Hey Rachel. So

1179
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:05,039
my Christian is then, as you
guys must know that the Church in Russia

1180
01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:13,520
is still pretty pretty good, and
when we compare that to America, but

1181
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:17,840
it's still separate from the state.
So what do you think Russia did right

1182
01:40:18,159 --> 01:40:24,920
in terms of preserving or saving the
church from feminism and things like that?

1183
01:40:28,079 --> 01:40:32,600
Good question. I guess that it's
probably just, you know, the Slavic

1184
01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:39,000
peoples maybe have a more innate antipathy
towards that. I think a lot of

1185
01:40:39,079 --> 01:40:45,760
Western social engineering and toxic culture hasn't
fully penetrated Russia yet, So there's probably

1186
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:49,199
a lot of different reasons why Russia
isn't as bad. But you know,

1187
01:40:49,279 --> 01:40:54,880
what's being unleashed is being unleashed globally, so you know, even places like

1188
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:59,279
China are trying to figure out how
to you know, stave off the unleashing

1189
01:40:59,399 --> 01:41:10,560
of all this toxicity. Jenna,
what's up? Jenna? You gotta mute?

1190
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:17,159
Are you there? Okay? I
thought you was a check. What's

1191
01:41:17,279 --> 01:41:24,119
up? Janna? Janna the manna. So it was recently debating one of

1192
01:41:24,199 --> 01:41:30,800
my friends, what's that I was
recently debating one of my Protestant friends really

1193
01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:35,800
reputed well, he didn't refute.
I phoned his arguments of the week,

1194
01:41:36,279 --> 01:41:42,319
but he didn't even accept that the
apostles had any oo, did he rejected

1195
01:41:42,359 --> 01:41:46,319
the Stolic succession, He rejected even
the apostles themselves, And I didn't know

1196
01:41:46,359 --> 01:41:51,039
how to argue against that point.
Well, yeah, I mean I would

1197
01:41:51,039 --> 01:41:57,039
just look up, you know,
Orthodox arguments for apostolic succession. I mean,

1198
01:41:57,079 --> 01:42:00,319
you have the apostles being told by
g says he who hears you hears

1199
01:42:00,399 --> 01:42:03,880
me. And if you read the
Book of Timothy, Paul lays his hands

1200
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:08,760
on Timothy and says you are the
successor to me in Ephesus. I mean

1201
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:12,560
he doesn't say those words, but
he's saying that I appointed you in Ephesus,

1202
01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:15,279
right, you then lay hands on
men after you. So really,

1203
01:42:15,319 --> 01:42:18,680
first and second Timothy, with the
statements that Jesus says to the apostles is

1204
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:25,680
really kind of like the most clear, in my view argument for apisode of

1205
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:28,279
succession. But then we can get
into the church fathers of the first and

1206
01:42:28,359 --> 01:42:32,279
second century already arguing for being successors
to the apostles. The bishop says,

1207
01:42:32,319 --> 01:42:36,359
successors to the apostles ignacious, iran
as They all really argue and speak this

1208
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:42,439
way. So that would be where
I would say you could start your argumentation.

1209
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:47,720
If you're responding to a Protestant.
Let's see punished, what's up punished?

1210
01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:09,920
Yeah, hello, hear uh hey
Jay. Also, hey Rachel,

1211
01:43:10,279 --> 01:43:14,800
nicely actually speaking spiking with you for
the first time. So my question is

1212
01:43:15,399 --> 01:43:18,600
obviously I'm I'm a cate of Cuman, Orthodox cate of Cuman, but I

1213
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:24,520
have had a bit of an issue
regarding people in the Orthodox faith. I'm

1214
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:28,319
not sure if it's a common thing, but it's something that's giving me a

1215
01:43:28,359 --> 01:43:33,760
bit of like like crisis in terms
of like denomination, where it feels a

1216
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:40,720
lot like a lot of the Orthodox
that I communicate with are very they're very

1217
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:45,840
isolated in their in their churches,
and they're very isolated in their in their

1218
01:43:45,199 --> 01:43:50,079
in their faith. They don't like
like people from outside of their faith coming

1219
01:43:50,159 --> 01:43:54,520
in. Uh. You, I
know you experienced that when when you went

1220
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:59,279
to a Greek Orthodox church in the
US. And I experienced the same thing

1221
01:43:59,279 --> 01:44:02,119
when I went to a Orthodox church
here in my country, and I wanted

1222
01:44:02,159 --> 01:44:05,279
to ask, like, why why
do you think there is this sort of

1223
01:44:05,439 --> 01:44:13,000
like almost like no no attempt to
like reach the outside from from a lot

1224
01:44:13,039 --> 01:44:17,039
of Orthodox churches compared to like a
lot of Protestants, compared to Mormons,

1225
01:44:17,119 --> 01:44:21,119
and and and Baptists and stuff like
that. What do you think that is?

1226
01:44:23,279 --> 01:44:27,479
I mean, you know, Orthodox
nations out there other than America do

1227
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:34,159
tend to be uh by their very
nature of being kind of national churches still

1228
01:44:34,359 --> 01:44:39,800
somewhat ethnic. But I mean this
exists in Protestantism and Roman Catholicism as well,

1229
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:42,600
So it's not I mean, I'm
not saying that it's everywhere in Rome,

1230
01:44:42,640 --> 01:44:44,960
but it's not everywhere in Orthodoxy either, So you know, I don't

1231
01:44:45,000 --> 01:44:47,159
know what country and I can't speak
to that, but you know, check

1232
01:44:47,239 --> 01:44:51,600
out. Do you have other options
you have, like other Orthodox options you

1233
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:56,640
could check out? And if you're
you know, if you find the people

1234
01:44:56,720 --> 01:44:59,600
to be cold at first, can
just continue to go there and try to

1235
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:02,640
warm up to the priest because if
you warm up to the priest, then

1236
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:08,159
eventually that people will warm up to
you as well, I think, because

1237
01:45:08,239 --> 01:45:11,359
you know, maybe they think that
you're just kind of an outsider or something

1238
01:45:11,399 --> 01:45:15,279
like that. But today we're and
I'm not trying to dismiss your question,

1239
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:19,960
it's just I don't really know what
the I mean, that's definitely one problem

1240
01:45:20,079 --> 01:45:25,600
that can arise in Orthodox churches.
It's not solely an Orthodox problem. It

1241
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:30,720
does exist in other churches as well, but I haven't been to Orthodox churches

1242
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:34,520
in other countries, so I don't
really know what that's like. I take

1243
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:40,119
that back. I've been to Orthodox
churches in Italy, and you know,

1244
01:45:40,239 --> 01:45:45,239
one of the Orthodox churches we visited
in Italy, they were having to meet

1245
01:45:45,399 --> 01:45:51,199
at a Roman Catholic church because they
were doing the liturgy where the relics were

1246
01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:58,840
and there was a lot of a
lot of Russian babushka is there that were

1247
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:03,640
acting kind of wild. So,
I mean, I can understand where you're

1248
01:46:03,640 --> 01:46:06,119
coming from, but I would say
just try to befriend and get closer to

1249
01:46:06,199 --> 01:46:11,479
the priest if you can. Let's
see, we're taking topics and questions for

1250
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:15,520
people who disagree or one of the
debate typically today not dissing you punished.

1251
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:17,319
I'm just saying, if you go, if you disagree, go to the

1252
01:46:17,359 --> 01:46:20,520
head of the line. Cartif you
want to try again, you tried earlier,

1253
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:26,680
Let's see if we can get you
back on. Go ahead, Cartif

1254
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:40,560
got it? Unmute? Can you
hear me? Now? Hey? Got

1255
01:46:40,600 --> 01:46:44,720
me? Yeah? All right?
Quick question for you? It was,

1256
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:48,960
how can I reason about language that
is open to such interpretation that it can

1257
01:46:49,039 --> 01:46:53,760
mean whatever you wanted to mean.
If language can mean anything, then it

1258
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:57,720
means nothing. As a Christian apologist, I have to ask, why should

1259
01:46:57,720 --> 01:47:01,279
I listen to you if what you're
saying is indistinguish from gibberish, and how

1260
01:47:01,359 --> 01:47:06,720
are you any better than astrology or
other wu wu. Well, first of

1261
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:11,399
all, I didn't never argue that
words and language can mean anything you wanted

1262
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:13,319
to mean. So no idea where
you got to No, I'm sorry,

1263
01:47:13,399 --> 01:47:15,399
I'm sorry I didn't When I say
you, I just mean like the general

1264
01:47:15,479 --> 01:47:19,359
Christian, like the general religious person, as an atheist Christian apologist, I

1265
01:47:19,399 --> 01:47:26,119
don't mean to you specifically. Sorry. Well, but if that's not my

1266
01:47:26,279 --> 01:47:29,880
position, what do you want me
to address everyone else's position? I don't

1267
01:47:29,960 --> 01:47:34,079
understand. Well, I'm just curious. Like, obviously I'm not an atheist,

1268
01:47:34,279 --> 01:47:41,199
and even even as a non religious
person, I can understand that you

1269
01:47:41,319 --> 01:47:45,640
know, they, you know,
religious people have a definition for their language.

1270
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:48,079
I don't exactly understand it. So
well, okay, So is the

1271
01:47:48,159 --> 01:47:59,920
objection that all theological and metaphysical terms
or gibberish well sub a abstract scientific definition?

1272
01:48:00,319 --> 01:48:03,319
I you know, I'm okay,
not sure Okay, so this is

1273
01:48:03,399 --> 01:48:09,520
like, are you familiar with any
critiques of like basic level scientism and like

1274
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:14,000
empiricism, because that's what it amounts
to. I would be happy if you

1275
01:48:14,079 --> 01:48:15,960
have any authors to recommend to me
or something. Well, I mean we

1276
01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:19,800
could just make the argument right here, like how do you know or what

1277
01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:24,960
does it even mean to think that
there's a quote basic scientific definition of what

1278
01:48:25,159 --> 01:48:32,000
exists? Well, I guess i'd
start with like Descartes soulism. I can't

1279
01:48:32,079 --> 01:48:36,520
prove anything outside of my existence,
so I need to have multiple people verify

1280
01:48:36,920 --> 01:48:41,439
my results and then you have,
you know, developed some sort of consensus

1281
01:48:41,520 --> 01:48:44,680
over time. And Okay, let's
let's get more basic than that, though,

1282
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:48,720
like how do we know? So
all knowledge comes through sense data?

1283
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:51,239
I mean, that's essentially scientism.
Is that? Is that your view?

1284
01:48:53,840 --> 01:48:57,640
Sure? Okay. So the problem
with that, though, is that that

1285
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:01,920
proposition itself is not in sense.
So it's a self refuting first proposition,

1286
01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:09,119
first starting point. So it's a
self destructive argument. Correct, Okay,

1287
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:13,159
I'll have to consider that. That's
a very interesting point. Well, that's

1288
01:49:13,199 --> 01:49:16,239
where the epistemology starts, and it
can't get off the ground. Then every

1289
01:49:16,319 --> 01:49:20,840
sentence from that point on says nothing. So it's actually your position that makes

1290
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:28,319
no coherent statement. Okay, So
I'm sorry, I could you just repeat

1291
01:49:28,319 --> 01:49:31,920
that. So if if it's if
it is the case that your if it

1292
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:36,199
is the case that your epistemic starting
point is self refuting, then any other

1293
01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:42,239
assertion or proposition you make would also
be nonsense and self refuting. So basically

1294
01:49:42,319 --> 01:49:47,119
sentences are impossible. Okay, but
so so I I in order to have

1295
01:49:47,560 --> 01:49:54,399
in order to use language, I
have to not use it, not consider

1296
01:49:54,479 --> 01:49:58,439
sense data. If i'm I'm not
maybe I'm not literally literally not at all

1297
01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:01,479
what I said said, absolutely not. I'm sorry, I'm trying to understand.

1298
01:50:01,800 --> 01:50:06,560
So your starting point, your first, the place you want to jump

1299
01:50:06,640 --> 01:50:12,520
off, the place you want to
hinge your epistemology on. Okay, it's

1300
01:50:12,520 --> 01:50:16,800
not a language problem, it's a
pistemology problem. Is itself a self refuting

1301
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:23,319
starting point, and so therefore any
other propositions or sentences you try to make

1302
01:50:23,760 --> 01:50:29,039
also fail because the epistemic starting point
fails. You see, So epistemology is

1303
01:50:29,079 --> 01:50:32,479
more fundamental in what we're talking about
than your theory of languages, the theory

1304
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:38,159
of language and signs. Okay,
so the premise, my premise is false

1305
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:46,479
because our lived experience transcends our ability
to describe it with language or something along

1306
01:50:46,520 --> 01:50:51,079
those lines. Well, I could
just simply say that the universal claim that

1307
01:50:51,199 --> 01:50:58,000
all knowledge comes through sense data is
a contradiction because knowledge that proposition isn't found

1308
01:50:58,079 --> 01:51:00,319
in sense data, and so you're
subject to all the problems with David Hume,

1309
01:51:00,359 --> 01:51:05,359
who's a more consistent atheist empiricist than
any other atheist comparacist, which means

1310
01:51:05,399 --> 01:51:11,399
that the result is Skepticisms of Hume's
arguments say basically that there's no way to

1311
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:15,920
give an account for the self,
identity over time, laws of logic,

1312
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:20,000
induction, predication, meaning all those
things fail. And if all those things

1313
01:51:20,039 --> 01:51:24,359
failed, and then sentences and knowledge
are impossible, and human is fine with

1314
01:51:24,399 --> 01:51:28,399
that, saying that our knowledge is
not justifiable. So if knowledge is not

1315
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:30,560
justifiable, if you want to be
a consistent atheist, then you can't argue

1316
01:51:30,560 --> 01:51:35,319
against Christianity, and you don't know
science, Science is impossible. I think

1317
01:51:35,399 --> 01:51:40,680
that's a fantastic argument, and I
really appreciate you you sharing that with me.

1318
01:51:41,359 --> 01:51:43,760
I will read into hum. Yeah, go read David Hume, because

1319
01:51:43,800 --> 01:51:46,960
yeah, he's the consistent atheist,
and he's my favorite atheist because he's the

1320
01:51:47,039 --> 01:51:51,359
one that's consistent where the rest of
the atheists aren't. Let's see Mars monkey.

1321
01:51:51,439 --> 01:51:56,520
What's up? Do you remember to
get today? It's a people who

1322
01:51:56,560 --> 01:51:59,640
disagree? Hey, what's up?
Can you hear me? Yes? Sir

1323
01:52:00,079 --> 01:52:05,840
uh. I don't know if you
caught the James White debate with Trent Horn.

1324
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:08,920
It was pretty interesting. I did
see it. Yeah, I thought

1325
01:52:08,960 --> 01:52:15,920
it was good. My brief thoughts
are that on the topic, I think

1326
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:19,399
Trent won on the topic. However, I do think James White brought up

1327
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:26,119
great points about the papacy contradicting on
moral issues and issues like the death penalty,

1328
01:52:26,399 --> 01:52:29,479
but that wasn't the topic of the
debate. However, those were good

1329
01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:36,239
singers by White against Trent. Yeah. He said something interesting, and this

1330
01:52:36,359 --> 01:52:39,960
is the question I have to use. How would you like comment on this

1331
01:52:40,319 --> 01:52:45,000
or respond to this? He said
that the silent period between Malachi and the

1332
01:52:45,039 --> 01:52:49,039
New Testament. He said that that's
sort of the way you got to view

1333
01:52:49,079 --> 01:52:55,560
the paradigm of Protestantism is that there's
this silent years between the early Church and

1334
01:52:55,640 --> 01:52:59,000
then you know, the Reformation.
How would you comment on something like that.

1335
01:52:59,159 --> 01:53:02,239
Yeah, then he's already admitted that
the scriptures alone are not the sole

1336
01:53:02,359 --> 01:53:14,399
rule of faith in those silent years, and that undercuts sol scripture. Cool

1337
01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:16,720
cool, Yeah, So I mean
right there, he lost the debate and

1338
01:53:16,840 --> 01:53:21,079
that he that's an admission. I
don't have to go into disproving all of

1339
01:53:21,159 --> 01:53:26,479
the Protestant positions if James White admits
that, even even for a time period,

1340
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:30,600
there's another, uh something else beyond
solo scripture that is a rule of

1341
01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:47,479
faith. Cool man, that's all
I God appreciate it. Let's see.

1342
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:56,319
Nope, what's up? Nope,
Nope, Yeah, I understand Everett,

1343
01:53:56,399 --> 01:54:00,119
Like, there's there's other art ways
we could respond to to White. We

1344
01:54:00,159 --> 01:54:05,319
could point out that the way he
understands the Inner Testamental period actually isn't the

1345
01:54:05,399 --> 01:54:10,520
way he thinks it is. And
the idea that the Old Testament sole scripture

1346
01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:15,680
also isn't true. They had judges, they had you know, interpreters of

1347
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:20,800
the law. He made a decision
with authority, the synagogue system and the

1348
01:54:20,880 --> 01:54:24,520
elders and all that. If you
look at the way that was set up,

1349
01:54:25,239 --> 01:54:27,920
it's not the way James White thinks. So yeah, we can address

1350
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,399
all of that, but just in
terms of the proposition in the debate.

1351
01:54:30,319 --> 01:54:35,319
When White made those admissions, in
my view, he lost the debate that

1352
01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:41,600
specific debate. That doesn't mean that
we have to that addresses every claim of

1353
01:54:41,760 --> 01:54:45,600
Trent or James White. It means
that the specific proposition they were debating.

1354
01:54:45,760 --> 01:54:50,279
I think that's the point which James
White lost that debate. And I would

1355
01:54:50,279 --> 01:54:56,279
add if you want a fuller treatment
of how the Old Testament actually functioned in

1356
01:54:56,399 --> 01:55:00,880
terms of text and authority with the
priest and the Levites then, and the

1357
01:55:00,199 --> 01:55:12,920
debate that we did with who's that
Protestant guy Dale? Yeah, so doctor

1358
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:27,399
Branson did a good thirty minute exposition
on how to understand the relationship of text

1359
01:55:27,520 --> 01:55:30,840
and levit and priest. Here it
is this one in this debate, So

1360
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:38,399
watch this two hour, forty minute
debate if you want a fuller treatment of

1361
01:55:39,399 --> 01:55:44,600
more specifically, how James White wasn't
even really technically correct about James White's acting

1362
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:47,199
like, oh, well, in
the Old Testament they were solo scripturists.

1363
01:55:47,520 --> 01:55:51,199
No, it actually says to the
law and to the testimony in Isaiah right,

1364
01:55:51,840 --> 01:56:00,159
and Israelites weren't running around quoting solo
scriptura scroll texts to one another to

1365
01:56:00,239 --> 01:56:04,840
try to prove you know, sol
the scripture of Old Testament protestantsm and that's

1366
01:56:04,960 --> 01:56:09,439
silly, but uh, if you
want a fuller treatment and watch the Bo

1367
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:13,439
Branson talk right there, all right, what's up? Nope? Hey,

1368
01:56:14,479 --> 01:56:20,279
I had heard about these saints that
have dealt with demonic possession and I was

1369
01:56:20,359 --> 01:56:27,119
interested because you know, the Orthodox
Christians. So is this related to the

1370
01:56:27,239 --> 01:56:30,119
I'm not trying to be rude.
Is the topic? The topic is debating

1371
01:56:30,520 --> 01:56:34,479
God's existence and so forth? Is
that is that part of that God's existence?

1372
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:36,680
No? Not necessarily? Okay,
well so that's what I'm not trying

1373
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:43,279
to be rude, but that's what
that's that's the that's the topic today.

1374
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:45,039
So I'm not trying to be rude
too. But the topic is we're debating

1375
01:56:45,079 --> 01:56:53,640
God's existence Islam with all says of
atheism Protestantism. Uh and if you disagree,

1376
01:56:53,720 --> 01:56:55,840
go ahead a line. Let's see
he's been waiting on. Gurdell has

1377
01:56:55,880 --> 01:57:03,760
been waiting a while. What's up, Gurdell? Orthodox? You gotta I'm

1378
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:17,479
mute, Girdell? Is this Kurt
Girdell himself? Are we channeling? So

1379
01:57:17,600 --> 01:57:20,159
it looks like he's got a bad
connection. Gardell, you want to pop

1380
01:57:20,199 --> 01:57:23,159
out, pop back in. I'll
bring you to the front of the line

1381
01:57:23,279 --> 01:57:33,079
because it's not connecting you. Let's
try. Let's see you's next, Patrick,

1382
01:57:33,279 --> 01:57:46,520
Masonic nonsense. What's up, you
gotta I'm mute, man, it's

1383
01:57:46,640 --> 01:57:50,119
me mm hmm, it is you. What's up? Yeah? Yeah,

1384
01:57:50,159 --> 01:57:55,560
okay, yeah. So I have
two questions, A couple of quick questions

1385
01:57:55,640 --> 01:58:02,159
about Protestantism and then a existence.
So my first question is just your opinion

1386
01:58:02,279 --> 01:58:11,560
on this, like Protestants who do
deliverance or not people, because I I've

1387
01:58:11,600 --> 01:58:16,399
seen a lot of people on the
internet who have their like these deliverance ministries

1388
01:58:16,479 --> 01:58:20,920
and stuff, and it seems really
like convincing. But then again, I

1389
01:58:21,159 --> 01:58:27,600
was thought that there is no grace
outside the Orthodox Church, at least regarding

1390
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:30,119
to these things. Well I don't. I mean, you've got TV preachers

1391
01:58:30,199 --> 01:58:35,119
who you know, have being busted
being con men. You know that's possible.

1392
01:58:35,199 --> 01:58:40,720
You've got people who could genuinely be
delivered by God's mercy. You know,

1393
01:58:41,119 --> 01:58:45,039
the guy casting out demons in Mark
is outside the church, and Jesus

1394
01:58:45,039 --> 01:58:47,640
has let him alone because anyone who's
apart from us will not forever be apart

1395
01:58:47,640 --> 01:58:51,359
from us, so soon be amongst
us. So yeah, I mean anything's

1396
01:58:51,399 --> 01:58:56,359
possible, But those things don't prove
or disprove any of the religions because any

1397
01:58:56,359 --> 01:59:00,800
of those manifestations that are claimed to
be miracles could always potentially be deceptions.

1398
01:59:01,239 --> 01:59:05,359
So miracles will attest to what's the
true faith, but they can't be proofs

1399
01:59:05,359 --> 01:59:10,079
of the true faith miracles themselves miracles
alone. So what's the next question.

1400
01:59:10,159 --> 01:59:14,960
Let's move on. The next question
is if nothing is created, or if

1401
01:59:15,039 --> 01:59:19,640
nothing created is inherently evil, and
all creation comes from God, then why

1402
01:59:19,760 --> 01:59:28,279
do for example, nuclear bombs exist. Well, even an explosion is just

1403
01:59:28,479 --> 01:59:31,399
fire. It's just heat. Like
fire and heat aren't bad or wrong,

1404
01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:35,800
So why would fire and heater themselves
be wrong? But it's just like anything

1405
01:59:35,840 --> 01:59:42,119
else when it's misused, it's the
misuse that's the error or the wrong,

1406
01:59:42,239 --> 01:59:45,159
it's not the thing itself. So
just like a gun, right, the

1407
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:48,840
atoms and the molecules in the gun
and the bullet are not inherently evil,

1408
01:59:49,279 --> 01:59:55,000
but to misuse them against another human
being is the misuse. Yeah. Well,

1409
01:59:55,159 --> 01:59:59,800
let's say that you have like straight
up like technology that was meant to

1410
02:00:00,159 --> 02:00:05,399
like harm the mankind, like,
yeah, but the intentionality doesn't make the

1411
02:00:06,479 --> 02:00:12,680
material itself evil, so that would
be gnostic or romantickan. We're gonna move

1412
02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:16,800
on. Thanks for those questions.
Let's see. Let's see who was next

1413
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:30,800
in line logos Hello, Hey,
hey Jay. First, first thing I

1414
02:00:30,840 --> 02:00:33,960
want to say is thank you all
the stuff that you do. Let me

1415
02:00:34,039 --> 02:00:40,319
to a little church. Thank you
good. Yeah, And I wanted to

1416
02:00:40,359 --> 02:00:45,159
ask you recently. That was a
hilarious debate Twitter debate with Bryce and Great

1417
02:00:46,079 --> 02:00:53,199
talking about he's not a sinner and
that because he's been baptized. Yeah,

1418
02:00:53,319 --> 02:00:57,039
because because he's big baptized, he's
a new creation. Therefore he's not a

1419
02:00:57,119 --> 02:01:00,279
sinner. And I find that argument
to be so that I wouldn't even know

1420
02:01:00,359 --> 02:01:02,640
how to respond to it if someone
said that to me in real life.

1421
02:01:03,479 --> 02:01:05,479
Well, I mean, John says
that we say we have no sin,

1422
02:01:05,560 --> 02:01:10,600
we deceive ourselves and the truth is
not in us. So right, some

1423
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:15,039
some things like that like extremely no, no, no, first John said

1424
02:01:15,119 --> 02:01:16,560
right, So first John, Right, if we say we have no sin,

1425
02:01:17,399 --> 02:01:23,680
we lie and the truth is not
in us. So I'm saying that

1426
02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:28,600
refutes Bryson perfect Great, And I
think if you if you watch our debate,

1427
02:01:28,720 --> 02:01:31,359
I mean Bryson has like out to
launch, no clue what he's talking

1428
02:01:31,359 --> 02:01:35,239
about. Yeah, And another thing
I wanted to ask is like, when

1429
02:01:35,479 --> 02:01:41,560
people like this come about, is
it best to just leave it alone?

1430
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:45,199
Sometimes? Yeah? Absolutely? Yeah, Yeah, I think you have to

1431
02:01:45,199 --> 02:01:48,000
have a case by case basis,
Right, you learn. I think over

1432
02:01:48,119 --> 02:01:53,760
time, who's worth interacting with and
who's not. Now I'm not saying that

1433
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:58,399
it was not worth interacting with Bryson
because we never had an interaction other than

1434
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:00,439
like a five minute exchange live debate. Right, So he came to that

1435
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:03,399
live debate in Nashville and was in
the audience, and we had about a

1436
02:02:03,439 --> 02:02:06,560
five minute exchange back and forth.
And so at that point I thought,

1437
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:11,680
well, it's worth having a protracted, you know, long discussion with Bryson.

1438
02:02:12,119 --> 02:02:15,720
And so that's why we did that
debate. But like, would I

1439
02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:18,560
do another debate with Bryson? I
don't really think there'd be much point in

1440
02:02:18,640 --> 02:02:21,960
it. I think it's just going
to be the same types of stuff over

1441
02:02:21,960 --> 02:02:27,960
and over. So I think over
time you realize, like a lot of

1442
02:02:28,000 --> 02:02:30,199
people say, why don't you debate
so and so? Why don't debate so

1443
02:02:30,279 --> 02:02:32,119
and so, well, most of
these people, I've already kind of seen

1444
02:02:32,239 --> 02:02:36,399
them in multiple debates. I know
what they're going to be arguing. Typically,

1445
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:41,399
when people are doing that, it's
almost always really low tier people,

1446
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:45,039
right, like people who've never had
a philosophy class, never written a paper,

1447
02:02:45,640 --> 02:02:49,560
don't know anything about fallacies, and
it's just like their menuons saying when

1448
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:53,239
you're going to debate so and so, it's like, well, I mean

1449
02:02:53,399 --> 02:02:56,600
he's already done like ten debates and
performed terribly. Why do I have to

1450
02:02:56,640 --> 02:03:00,439
debate this person who is just going
to be the exact same thing, and

1451
02:03:00,479 --> 02:03:01,760
a lot of the load Tier eighty
It's like I'm not going to eight T

1452
02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:06,119
jump again because it's like we already
saw you know, so there's no point.

1453
02:03:06,159 --> 02:03:12,399
So I think you just learn over
time who's worth engaging with and who's

1454
02:03:12,439 --> 02:03:20,920
not. Makes sense. Yeah,
thanks, thanks for questions, and thank

1455
02:03:20,960 --> 02:03:25,039
you. Logos appreciate that. Good
questions. So guys, it's open for

1456
02:03:25,159 --> 02:03:29,319
them. We got almost upwards up, not almost one hundred. We've got

1457
02:03:29,359 --> 02:03:31,399
eighty four listening live over on Twitter. The way it works is, if

1458
02:03:31,439 --> 02:03:35,000
you're listening on Twitter, you ask
to speak, request to speak, I

1459
02:03:35,079 --> 02:03:39,039
give the microphone and then you come
on, you can make whatever arguments you

1460
02:03:39,119 --> 02:03:43,479
want. Make sure they're arguments,
please. Arguments is not arguing. Argument

1461
02:03:43,640 --> 02:03:48,960
is a proposition with supporting evidences and
claims. So let's see Sapphire scribe.

1462
02:03:49,359 --> 02:04:00,119
What's up? Hey, yeah,
Hey, how's it going? Jay?

1463
02:04:00,359 --> 02:04:05,279
Yes, Sir, I had a
one serious question and one kind of quick

1464
02:04:05,359 --> 02:04:12,720
question after that, if I can. I was in a discord group chat

1465
02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:17,159
and there were a few Muslims in
there, and I mentioned how all things

1466
02:04:17,920 --> 02:04:21,359
proceed from the Father and they said, oh, we believe that too,

1467
02:04:23,039 --> 02:04:26,279
So can you kind of outline for
me. I'm not like super familiar with

1468
02:04:26,399 --> 02:04:30,399
like the Islamic like outlook on that. I know it's not the same as

1469
02:04:30,880 --> 02:04:34,800
this is just illustrating what we said
earlier about the word proceed being vague.

1470
02:04:34,840 --> 02:04:36,840
I mean, that can mean a
lot of different things. I mean they

1471
02:04:36,960 --> 02:04:41,840
mean that. I think they just
mean that, Yeah, creation comes from

1472
02:04:42,159 --> 02:04:45,960
Allah. Okay, we believe that
creation comes from God too, but we

1473
02:04:46,079 --> 02:04:49,920
also believe that the Son and the
Spirit come from God. So coming from

1474
02:04:50,000 --> 02:04:54,960
God does not equate to being a
creature. And they're arguing that anything coming

1475
02:04:55,039 --> 02:04:59,880
from God is a creature. Gotcha. Yeah, See that's something that I

1476
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:03,800
I knew it was distinct because it
was in and and my red flag was

1477
02:05:03,800 --> 02:05:09,960
already up because they were being inordinately
nice. Uh, and I was mentioning

1478
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:13,880
about you know, I was talking
in a roundabout way about like the Trinity.

1479
02:05:14,000 --> 02:05:16,079
So it was kind of weird how
they were coming at me a little

1480
02:05:16,079 --> 02:05:18,319
bit, you know, like,
oh, this is what we believe,

1481
02:05:18,359 --> 02:05:21,439
this is similar to what we believe. So I just want that's just word

1482
02:05:21,479 --> 02:05:24,920
concept fallacies, Like Mormons do the
same thing. You're like, oh,

1483
02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:27,000
we believe Jesus is God. I
was like, yeah, you believe in

1484
02:05:27,119 --> 02:05:30,800
multiple gods. So uh yeah,
it's a lot of a lot of cults

1485
02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:38,319
and groups just basically hinge everything on
ambiguity in words and terminology. So that's

1486
02:05:38,359 --> 02:05:41,600
a huge part of I mean again, Basil says this. He says heretics

1487
02:05:41,640 --> 02:05:45,439
always make like grammar and word concept
mistakes. So thank you for that question.

1488
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:50,199
There. We're going to move on
to uh open forum with Jack and

1489
02:05:50,279 --> 02:05:53,119
then he dropped off. Jack.
If you want to come back on,

1490
02:05:53,279 --> 02:06:03,880
just request to speak Philip. What's
up, Philip? Yeah, Hey,

1491
02:06:03,960 --> 02:06:09,239
what's up? Jay? Hey,
Hey, I had a question about tag.

1492
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:13,359
I don't know if that's technically on
topic for it, and then we've

1493
02:06:13,399 --> 02:06:15,560
had like, yeah, we got
like five tag questions. Go ahead,

1494
02:06:15,479 --> 02:06:20,640
Okay, cool. So I was
watching your debate with dil on Tea recently

1495
02:06:21,399 --> 02:06:27,119
just to sort of like just because
I'm very new to the philosophical side of

1496
02:06:27,960 --> 02:06:30,239
Christianity, and so I was trying
to sort of buff up on that at

1497
02:06:30,319 --> 02:06:39,039
least a little bit. But it
seems and excuse me, sorry, it

1498
02:06:39,159 --> 02:06:43,239
seems and correct me if I'm wrong, But like, it's not so much

1499
02:06:43,399 --> 02:06:48,840
that because logic exists, therefore we
can apply to God. But it's like

1500
02:06:49,800 --> 02:06:58,159
logic, identity, over time,
knowledge, like all of these things correspond

1501
02:06:58,279 --> 02:07:02,520
to one another and such a way
that it's like, sure atheists can point

1502
02:07:02,600 --> 02:07:05,760
to them and say, oh,
look there's knowledge, or there's logic,

1503
02:07:06,279 --> 02:07:12,479
or there's identity over time, but
the fact that they correspond to each other

1504
02:07:12,560 --> 02:07:15,600
as well would imply that there is
something that connect. Is that sort of

1505
02:07:15,640 --> 02:07:18,399
on the right, Yeah, Yeah, I wouldn't say the word correspond.

1506
02:07:18,520 --> 02:07:23,399
I mean they interrelate. I mean
they absolutely go together. You know,

1507
02:07:23,880 --> 02:07:30,720
universals relates to laws of logic,
Laws of logic relates to can you mute

1508
02:07:30,760 --> 02:07:35,159
brow? It's loud in the background. Ye okay, universals relates to numbers

1509
02:07:35,199 --> 02:07:39,000
in mathematics. I'm not saying they're
identical, and they relate to one another

1510
02:07:39,119 --> 02:07:42,439
in an intricate way. Right.
And so the external world, right,

1511
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:46,399
is a necessary precondition for knowledge,
the self, the eye, having the

1512
02:07:46,479 --> 02:07:50,000
knowledge right, the knowledge presupposes a
knower. Right. So all of these

1513
02:07:50,039 --> 02:07:56,439
things kind of go into and a
presupposed by the act of knowing or whatever.

1514
02:07:56,960 --> 02:08:01,439
And they all require a certain kind
of world. Basically, for example,

1515
02:08:01,479 --> 02:08:05,079
we couldn't have a world where everything
was one. Right. Let's say

1516
02:08:05,079 --> 02:08:07,560
we were monas or pantheus. Right, Oh, everything's one and we're all

1517
02:08:07,640 --> 02:08:11,560
God. Dude. Well, that
would really destroy the possibility of knowledge because

1518
02:08:11,640 --> 02:08:16,720
now we're not actually knowing facts.
We're just simply knowing ourselves or we are

1519
02:08:16,800 --> 02:08:20,119
God, or everything is all is
one. So distinctions are illusory. Right.

1520
02:08:20,119 --> 02:08:22,880
There's a lot of different traps that
something like a monus position might fall

1521
02:08:22,960 --> 02:08:26,479
into, and they're falling into those
traps because they're not recognizing that for knowledge

1522
02:08:26,520 --> 02:08:30,760
to be possible, we need a
certain kind of world. A certain kind

1523
02:08:30,800 --> 02:08:35,760
of world means certain types of metaphysical
truths and principles and structure. So that's

1524
02:08:35,840 --> 02:08:39,079
what the transfient argument is, arguing
that there's a certain type of world it's

1525
02:08:39,119 --> 02:08:43,800
necessary to make knowledge possible, certain
type of metaphysics, certain type of pismology,

1526
02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:48,880
and when we have that type of
world, we can then posit the

1527
02:08:48,119 --> 02:08:54,920
possibility of knowledge. So the argument
is not about first order reasoning. The

1528
02:08:54,159 --> 02:09:01,000
argument is about higher metalogical possibility of
reasoning at all. Every atheist when they

1529
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:05,119
hear this argument misunderstands this and they
think that the argument is just me asserting

1530
02:09:05,159 --> 02:09:09,039
that God exists. Therefore God exists. Now it's saying that the transcendental categories

1531
02:09:09,199 --> 02:09:16,279
necessitate and relate to one another in
an interlocking, interrelated way, and that

1532
02:09:16,439 --> 02:09:20,880
any act of knowledge presupposes those transcendal
categories. And so therefore, how do

1533
02:09:20,960 --> 02:09:26,319
we make sense of the categories since
they're prior to any knowledge claim or they're

1534
02:09:26,319 --> 02:09:31,399
prior to the doing of logic.
It's a meta logical, meta knowledge question,

1535
02:09:33,039 --> 02:09:37,439
gotcha. And so so yeah,
it seems like the atheists would just

1536
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:41,960
be able to point to like logic
and knowledge and identity over time as just

1537
02:09:41,079 --> 02:09:46,039
like disparate things. Well, but
they're not desperate things. It doesn't make

1538
02:09:46,039 --> 02:09:48,920
any sense to talk about knowledge over
time without a knower. How could they

1539
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:52,760
be? Yeah, but that's that's
what I'm saying, is from their position,

1540
02:09:52,960 --> 02:09:58,680
like they don't have an account for
how they correlate or how they well,

1541
02:09:58,680 --> 02:10:00,880
they don't have that. Well,
they don't, they they don't.

1542
02:10:01,039 --> 02:10:03,199
It's not that they don't have an
account for how they interrelate. They also

1543
02:10:03,239 --> 02:10:07,520
don't have an account for the things
themselves individually. I mean, that's that's

1544
02:10:07,640 --> 02:10:11,800
David Hume's point is that an atheist, an empiricist cannot give an account for

1545
02:10:13,119 --> 02:10:18,359
any of the individual things identity over
time, the self, the external world,

1546
02:10:18,479 --> 02:10:24,199
you know, induction, laws of
logic. Okay, cool, Yeah,

1547
02:10:24,239 --> 02:10:28,479
that was it. Thanks, Yeah, good questions. Let's see,

1548
02:10:28,720 --> 02:10:33,640
I don't know if father Diggan,
if you want to comment on that,

1549
02:10:35,439 --> 02:10:43,439
you can while I go t T
to the little girls room. Are you

1550
02:10:43,520 --> 02:10:48,279
there? Sorry? Did you ask
a question? I said, if you

1551
02:10:48,359 --> 02:10:54,439
want to comment on the tag points
there, the the the idea of you

1552
02:10:54,520 --> 02:10:56,840
know, maybe what you're going to
argue in your paper, or if you

1553
02:10:56,880 --> 02:10:58,119
want to comment on any of that, since you requested to speak, you

1554
02:10:58,199 --> 02:11:03,760
can. I do have to go
to the little girl's room. Yeah,

1555
02:11:03,920 --> 02:11:09,319
so, I mean often one confusion
is because it's called a transcendental argument,

1556
02:11:11,000 --> 02:11:16,319
that it's solely restricted to accounting for
transcendentals. But that's not the case,

1557
02:11:16,359 --> 02:11:24,760
somebody, if we go back to
just a manual clant, transcendental deduction is

1558
02:11:24,960 --> 02:11:31,800
neither a deductive nor an inductive argument, but it is an argument kind of

1559
02:11:31,920 --> 02:11:37,399
prior to arguments that what is the
necessary condition, what would make this possible?

1560
02:11:37,439 --> 02:11:43,079
Now, of course we can ask
that about the transcendental categories because there's

1561
02:11:43,119 --> 02:11:48,640
many things that are prior to other
things. There's things that we presuppose and

1562
02:11:48,680 --> 02:11:52,279
the level goes up. Well.
One of those things, of course,

1563
02:11:52,439 --> 02:11:56,960
is logic, identity, over time, knowledge and different things that could possibly

1564
02:11:58,159 --> 02:12:05,800
put into transcendental category, all of
which must be assumed in order to make

1565
02:12:05,960 --> 02:12:18,199
legitimate inferences deductions and various epistemic or
even sensory actions, semantics, et cetera.

1566
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:26,560
But really, the transit the transcendental
argument is is even prior to that.

1567
02:12:28,800 --> 02:12:33,119
So what is And you know,
there's many different things that you can

1568
02:12:33,279 --> 02:12:37,960
focus on within a transcendental argument.
They all, you know, In other

1569
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:41,560
words, there's many different types of
transcendental arguments with existence of God that you

1570
02:12:41,720 --> 02:12:48,039
can give all of them have in
common. What is the ultimate necessary conditions

1571
02:12:48,119 --> 02:12:54,760
that make and plug in any of
this possible. I tend to focus on

1572
02:12:54,000 --> 02:13:00,720
the epistemic questions, so I may
not focus on transcendents. I may just

1573
02:13:00,840 --> 02:13:05,760
focus on well, we use logic. We think it's legitimate, and I

1574
02:13:05,880 --> 02:13:09,920
say that to distinguish from valid,
because somebody might get confused or their valid

1575
02:13:11,039 --> 02:13:16,920
forms. But by legitimate, we
believe that if we follow certain kind of

1576
02:13:16,079 --> 02:13:24,279
rules, logical rules, we get
what we want in terms of getting knowledge.

1577
02:13:26,359 --> 02:13:31,079
And most people never kind of ask
more kind of meta pistemological questions,

1578
02:13:31,279 --> 02:13:37,600
well why is that? What actually
makes that possible? And what would make

1579
02:13:37,680 --> 02:13:46,359
that impossible? Now, keep in
mind there's no one who's presuppositionless. When

1580
02:13:46,399 --> 02:13:52,960
we read text, when we do
various actions, we come with various presuppositions.

1581
02:13:56,520 --> 02:14:03,560
Some of those presuppositions make the things
that we want in namely knowledge that

1582
02:14:03,720 --> 02:14:11,800
there. It's not just that somebody's
paradigm might have inconsistencies, because anybody's paradigm

1583
02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:16,000
could have you know, well I
was wrong about this, this inconsistent There's

1584
02:14:16,039 --> 02:14:22,880
more kind of fundamental issues that certain
presuppositions that one could have would literally make

1585
02:14:22,039 --> 02:14:30,199
knowledge impossible, and so it ends
up being self defeating versus just maybe a

1586
02:14:30,319 --> 02:14:35,920
smaller kind of epistemic problem. Yeah, so that's something that we point out,

1587
02:14:37,840 --> 02:14:45,039
and that again, when you start
thinking through this, it boils down

1588
02:14:45,119 --> 02:14:54,880
to only two positions, presuppositions,
and those presuppositions, we all want to

1589
02:14:54,920 --> 02:14:58,359
give an account for the world.
What does that count mean? There's a

1590
02:14:58,359 --> 02:15:05,239
presupposition, the story that explains stuff, and everybody has one, and some

1591
02:15:05,560 --> 02:15:13,960
fit better than others, and some
make storytelling and accounts and knowledge completely impossible,

1592
02:15:15,319 --> 02:15:20,680
and ultimately it's going to boil down
to you. Either you have a

1593
02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:30,600
story about a creator who creates all
of these things and grounds knowledge, experience,

1594
02:15:31,199 --> 02:15:37,560
identity over time, physical laws and
laws of identity, logical laws,

1595
02:15:37,800 --> 02:15:45,560
and so there's a purpose behind,
there's an intention behind, or the only

1596
02:15:45,640 --> 02:15:52,079
other presupposition is there isn't it's an
accident, in which case that makes there

1597
02:15:52,159 --> 02:15:58,079
is no meaningful story that could be
told, because why it's what's the opposite

1598
02:15:58,119 --> 02:16:03,000
of meaning accident, the opposit a
knowledge accident. Ultimately that's the story that

1599
02:16:05,079 --> 02:16:09,840
the person tells. So again,
the question is the most fundamental sort of

1600
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:16,079
question with a transcendental argument for the
existence of God is what possibly could be

1601
02:16:16,279 --> 02:16:28,079
prior epistemically than God. And what
we'll find is in any attempt to explain

1602
02:16:28,279 --> 02:16:33,639
that is self defeating. I can't
accomplish what it does. So by impossibility

1603
02:16:33,639 --> 02:16:39,879
of the contrary, God must be. There's no arguments that strictly that are

1604
02:16:39,920 --> 02:16:46,719
behind God that you prove God by. He is the first epistemic principle by

1605
02:16:46,799 --> 02:16:50,520
which anything could be known or proven. Does that make sense? Yeah?

1606
02:16:50,799 --> 02:17:07,760
Yeah, great points. Let's see. Next up is waiting Luken's got it

1607
02:17:07,799 --> 02:17:13,479
on your bro he hear me,
yes, sir, Hey, what's up?

1608
02:17:13,559 --> 02:17:18,239
Jet uh yo? So I'm I'm
currently Presbyterian, but I've been like

1609
02:17:18,879 --> 02:17:24,239
kind of exploring Orthodoxy more very intrigued
by very intrigued by it. I have

1610
02:17:24,319 --> 02:17:31,360
a few questions related to eschatology.
If that's cool. Uh, Well,

1611
02:17:31,399 --> 02:17:39,040
today's discussion is about disagreements and particularly
Islam rogus and so it's not it's not

1612
02:17:39,120 --> 02:17:41,719
the topics today. What what's your
I'll answer the basics. What's the basic

1613
02:17:41,879 --> 02:17:46,760
question? So the basic question is
like, is kind of is it within

1614
02:17:48,239 --> 02:17:52,520
a valid Orthodox interpretation? Like if
for all that discourse, like that's entirely

1615
02:17:52,559 --> 02:17:56,000
about Jerusalem and the Temple, or
is that like, does it apply to

1616
02:17:56,040 --> 02:18:01,079
both then or also to the very
end of the Yeah, I think it's

1617
02:18:01,319 --> 02:18:07,840
it's both and okay, that's yeah. It's typically typically the way like uh,

1618
02:18:09,079 --> 02:18:11,639
you know Saint John Chris System when
he interprets it, he says,

1619
02:18:13,200 --> 02:18:16,879
it's seventy eighty and it's the end
of the world. Let's see a good

1620
02:18:16,959 --> 02:18:28,239
question of vlad, what's up?
Lad? Y'all going to the chicken mask

1621
02:18:28,319 --> 02:18:33,159
later the chicken divesorta. Do you
hearing? What's up? Yeah? Hello

1622
02:18:33,319 --> 02:18:39,520
Jay? As an Orthodox Christian myself, I want to ask about orthodox issue,

1623
02:18:41,239 --> 02:18:46,440
what does a proper view of the
rights? Do they exist? Rights

1624
02:18:46,879 --> 02:18:52,000
like I have a right to do
something, or we have rights to I

1625
02:18:52,079 --> 02:18:54,040
don't know to do that. I
mean, it depends on what you mean

1626
02:18:54,079 --> 02:18:56,000
by rights. I mean, if
you mean like the natural law or something

1627
02:18:56,040 --> 02:19:00,159
moral law or something like that,
then then that's what it means. If

1628
02:19:00,159 --> 02:19:03,239
you're like an Enlightenment atheist libertarian and
no rights, rights don't exist, they

1629
02:19:03,239 --> 02:19:05,440
don't make any sense. There's no
reason to believe in them. So it

1630
02:19:05,520 --> 02:19:07,959
really just means on what we mean
by those words. But good question,

1631
02:19:09,559 --> 02:19:11,920
Daniel, what's up Daniel today?
Guys, Remember it's people that disagree debate.

1632
02:19:13,680 --> 02:19:16,200
So I understand a lot of people
have questions, and that's okay,

1633
02:19:16,319 --> 02:19:20,959
but we want to get preference to
the people who disagree. Today, Gott,

1634
02:19:20,000 --> 02:19:30,399
I'm mute, Danny, do you
want to talk? You know,

1635
02:19:30,479 --> 02:19:35,600
I'm mute, man, Jay,
I have I have a few questions.

1636
02:19:35,719 --> 02:19:41,479
I have one question. Actually,
sorry that I'm delaying the people that are

1637
02:19:41,959 --> 02:19:46,079
Okay, what's the question. We'll
do it quick. So, you know

1638
02:19:46,239 --> 02:19:56,319
the I was watching a video by
brother nothing else and he was refeuding Ben

1639
02:19:56,360 --> 02:20:03,559
Shapiro. I was just wondering.
Ben Shapiro said that anyone can be the

1640
02:20:03,520 --> 02:20:09,719
well Jewish Messiah, even though there
has already been a Messiah, And how

1641
02:20:09,840 --> 02:20:18,680
will that Messiah prove that he's there
Jewish Messiah, like the false Messiah without

1642
02:20:18,760 --> 02:20:26,239
the genealogies of David, you know, and jud In Rabbinic Judaism, there's

1643
02:20:26,239 --> 02:20:31,159
probably as many different theories on the
Messiah as there are Rabbinic Jews. So

1644
02:20:37,559 --> 02:20:43,040
so shout out to your boy there. Yeah, that's a great question.

1645
02:20:43,120 --> 02:20:46,440
I don't know. I don't know
what the Messiah would even mean if it's

1646
02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:52,479
no longer divedic dissent. But I'm
sure there's a million different rabbinic ideas.

1647
02:20:52,600 --> 02:20:56,760
I mean, there's Jews that think
that Rabbi Schneerson was the Messiah, So

1648
02:20:58,040 --> 02:21:00,799
you know, to me, that's
all just all over the place. So

1649
02:21:01,399 --> 02:21:07,040
but how would the like, how
would I fake Messiah? Well, I

1650
02:21:07,120 --> 02:21:09,399
mean, Schneerson wasn't the Messiah,
and I think people believe he was and

1651
02:21:09,479 --> 02:21:13,479
then he'll come back or something.
So I mean, I guess it depends

1652
02:21:13,520 --> 02:21:16,120
on which group he convences, like
what they think their criteria would be.

1653
02:21:16,680 --> 02:21:22,000
So if you, you know,
believe that Messiah will be a Davidic warlord,

1654
02:21:22,120 --> 02:21:26,879
it seems like you would have to
have the Davidic uh, you know,

1655
02:21:28,040 --> 02:21:33,479
genealogy. So yeah, it seems
like it's all over the place,

1656
02:21:33,600 --> 02:21:50,040
Jamie, I don't think this coffee
is right, Tamara. Hey, Jamie,

1657
02:21:58,000 --> 02:22:16,760
you guys would hit like in share
go ahead, I'm mute. All

1658
02:22:16,879 --> 02:22:24,319
right, Well you're not gonna talk, then we'll move on. Uh pissar

1659
02:22:39,319 --> 02:22:45,440
cataclysm since ten dollars and says I
loved your debate Orthodoxy wins. Could you

1660
02:22:45,520 --> 02:22:52,799
address uh joke the Maccockway magician quote
minding father Staniloy. Yeah, I think

1661
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:58,360
he was trying to get the idea
that there's three minds because there's three centers

1662
02:22:58,399 --> 02:23:05,440
of consciousness or persons or agents.
But of course we don't reduce mind to

1663
02:23:05,680 --> 02:23:09,120
trait of nature. It's one mind
in the triad that exists in the mode

1664
02:23:09,520 --> 02:23:15,440
of the three hypostases that have it. So Jake was confusing natural property with

1665
02:23:15,799 --> 02:23:20,479
hypostatic property and confusing person with mode
or tropos. So bisarre, what's up?

1666
02:23:24,000 --> 02:23:31,079
How's it going? How do you
reconcile Catholic saints with like Orthodoxia,

1667
02:23:31,200 --> 02:23:37,520
they if the Catholic Church has fallen
from grace or what have you. We

1668
02:23:37,639 --> 02:23:39,040
don't. We don't accept Roman Catholic
saints. So what do you mean?

1669
02:23:41,920 --> 02:23:46,680
So how do you explain them in
their lives? And they're supposed a long

1670
02:23:46,799 --> 02:23:50,559
line of miracles? Well, I
mean, do you think miracles prove or

1671
02:23:50,600 --> 02:23:58,680
disprove a position? That's the problem. I mean, I can bring on

1672
02:23:58,719 --> 02:24:03,680
a bunch of Muslims that tell you
that Churanic miracles prove the Quran. So

1673
02:24:05,000 --> 02:24:09,719
miracle claims don't do anything except a
test to the true position. They don't

1674
02:24:09,760 --> 02:24:18,399
prove the true position. Okay,
So we just take them as sort of

1675
02:24:18,520 --> 02:24:24,879
regular Catholic believers as orthodox. I
don't know what that means. What do

1676
02:24:24,959 --> 02:24:33,200
you mean so we don't like there's
no reason to really look further into them,

1677
02:24:33,319 --> 02:24:37,200
like authox. I mean, I
guess you do what you want,

1678
02:24:37,280 --> 02:24:41,440
But I'm saying that that's not going
to determine which religion is true. Is

1679
02:24:41,639 --> 02:24:46,639
miracle claims because every religion the world
claims miracles. Evangelicals will claim miracles and

1680
02:24:46,719 --> 02:24:50,879
say that that disproves rom Catholicism.
I mean, miracles will attest to the

1681
02:24:50,920 --> 02:24:54,799
true faith. They literally cannot quote
prove the true faith. It's just it's

1682
02:24:54,840 --> 02:25:03,920
not going to do that work.
It's a fallacy. Okay, it's that

1683
02:25:03,079 --> 02:25:07,639
same Thanks, Yeah, good question. Yeah, we get that question a

1684
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:24,639
lot. It's a fair question.
Uh, let's see Tamara mm hm.

1685
02:25:28,079 --> 02:25:31,079
Okay. So I gave you the
mic, but we can't hear you.

1686
02:25:33,000 --> 02:25:46,760
Tavastanag what's up to Aston? I? Hey, Jamie, you gotta unmute

1687
02:25:46,799 --> 02:26:05,920
man icono Matt ten dollars, Jay, what's up? I was wondering if

1688
02:26:05,959 --> 02:26:11,200
you plan through debunk Lofton's book.
Probably not. I can't imagine that anything

1689
02:26:11,639 --> 02:26:13,479
that's in his book isn't already in
a bunch of his boring live streams.

1690
02:26:16,520 --> 02:26:18,120
I was the one that made with
Michael Lofton joke when you were debating with

1691
02:26:18,280 --> 02:26:22,840
Jake. Well, that's funny because
I actually made the joke to Kai and

1692
02:26:22,959 --> 02:26:26,120
Lewis in our chat, So I
was I was calling. I was saying

1693
02:26:26,159 --> 02:26:33,280
that Jake was the Muslim Michael Lofton
to Kaile Lewis, So we had the

1694
02:26:33,360 --> 02:26:37,520
same vibe there. Travis five dollars. This is my first time catching a

1695
02:26:37,639 --> 02:26:39,959
live stream. I'm a longtime viewer. Thank you, Travis, appreciate that.

1696
02:26:41,920 --> 02:26:43,079
So guys, remember the way it
works is you request to speak.

1697
02:26:43,120 --> 02:26:46,280
If you request to speak, you
come on. Today's topic is not for

1698
02:26:46,360 --> 02:26:52,159
people who to agree. It's for
disagreements, and that's why it's listed as

1699
02:26:52,280 --> 02:26:56,559
a debate stream. It says the
top debate about God Islam, Catholicism,

1700
02:26:56,639 --> 02:27:01,000
Atheism, Protestantism. I don't understand
how like Sam schmun gets like a million

1701
02:27:01,159 --> 02:27:03,719
Muslims that want to debate him,
and maybe there's just not a lot of

1702
02:27:03,799 --> 02:27:07,600
Muslims on to it, Like where
are the Muslims that like that? None

1703
02:27:07,639 --> 02:27:09,760
of the Muslims I don't remember last
time we had. It's been probably eight

1704
02:27:09,840 --> 02:27:13,760
months since a Muslim came in here. But they love to debate with Uh.

1705
02:27:13,959 --> 02:27:20,239
I guess because I guess because Sam
will debate the Quurnic tax like he's

1706
02:27:20,280 --> 02:27:24,040
like a master at you know,
flipping the script on the Muslim of other

1707
02:27:24,120 --> 02:27:30,280
chronic texts. And not that Sam
can't argue the Trinity, is just that

1708
02:27:30,479 --> 02:27:31,840
Like I think the Muslims don't want
to come over here because they think,

1709
02:27:31,879 --> 02:27:33,920
oh, it's just going to be
a philosophy or something. I don't know,

1710
02:27:35,040 --> 02:27:43,520
but uh, let's see, we
got on unproletario. What's up?

1711
02:27:43,639 --> 02:27:52,799
Unproletary? Hey, Jamie, could
you make me a coffee? This one

1712
02:27:52,920 --> 02:28:03,559
was really weak. Yeah, this
one was like, t I'm you all

1713
02:28:03,680 --> 02:28:15,920
right? You dropped off? So
Kevin, what's up? Kevin? Hello?

1714
02:28:15,959 --> 02:28:20,559
Hello, sir, Yes, sir, thank you, thank you for

1715
02:28:20,639 --> 02:28:26,360
hosting the space today. I'm wanted
to come in represent the Catholic position.

1716
02:28:26,440 --> 02:28:35,479
Okay, So I guess first off, I want to hear what is the

1717
02:28:35,600 --> 02:28:41,760
defense of the Council of Florence And
how do you, from the Orthodox side

1718
02:28:41,799 --> 02:28:46,520
of things, determined if an ecumenical
council is authoritative or not. Yeah,

1719
02:28:46,559 --> 02:28:50,360
so I mean, it's pretty well
known if you read the Austro mob book

1720
02:28:50,440 --> 02:28:54,399
on Florence, that the fact that
we had, you know, a handful

1721
02:28:54,440 --> 02:28:58,440
of patriarchs and bishops there that did
accept it certainly doesn't mean that the entire

1722
02:28:58,520 --> 02:29:03,200
Orthodox Church accepts it. Sat Mark
of Ephicus famously didn't accept it, and

1723
02:29:03,280 --> 02:29:09,719
the Orthodox world unanimously rejected the bishops
that did accept Florence. So for us,

1724
02:29:11,200 --> 02:29:16,120
there's no like one size fits all
easy answer anymore than for you there's

1725
02:29:16,159 --> 02:29:18,639
a one size fits all easy answer. Because Roman Catholics, even with the

1726
02:29:18,840 --> 02:29:22,920
doctrine of the papacy, still don't
have a very clear list or idea of

1727
02:29:22,959 --> 02:29:28,559
what the ecumenical councils are and are, namely the inconsistency that you have with

1728
02:29:28,719 --> 02:29:35,280
for example, later in six forty
nine. Clue me in on later in

1729
02:29:35,319 --> 02:29:37,799
six nine, and then what nuanced
there are specifically referring to. So,

1730
02:29:39,280 --> 02:29:45,440
at the time of the dispute over
the Monothelite controversy, a Rome called a

1731
02:29:45,639 --> 02:29:52,719
council which intended to be a independent
from the emperor council. So the Pope

1732
02:29:52,760 --> 02:29:56,639
of Rome called a council. Maximus
went, I've been to the lateran a

1733
02:29:56,719 --> 02:30:03,200
few months ago where this council has
had and they condemned monothelitism, and that's

1734
02:30:03,239 --> 02:30:07,840
a great thing, and we're happy
for that. But that council meets all

1735
02:30:07,879 --> 02:30:13,120
of the Roman Catholic later criteria for
what should count as an ecumenical council.

1736
02:30:13,200 --> 02:30:18,239
However, when the sixth Secumenical Council
met, they did not simply state,

1737
02:30:18,479 --> 02:30:22,000
oh, well, we already have
the convenient definition from latter in six forty

1738
02:30:22,040 --> 02:30:24,639
nine, from the Pope and Pope
Martin, so we don't even have to

1739
02:30:24,680 --> 02:30:28,719
have an ecumenical council. If they
had the Vatican One mindset, they would

1740
02:30:28,760 --> 02:30:31,920
have simply said, latter in six
forty nine has already solved the issue.

1741
02:30:31,959 --> 02:30:37,600
But in fact, what they do
is they investigate the teachings of the Monothelites,

1742
02:30:39,040 --> 02:30:43,319
the Monothelite patriarch. They investigate the
teachings of the Pope of Rome and

1743
02:30:43,399 --> 02:30:46,360
previous theologians and Saint Maximus. And
it is not the papacy that is the

1744
02:30:46,600 --> 02:30:52,159
chief arguer of that council. It
is Saint Maximus who is the chief theologian

1745
02:30:52,200 --> 02:30:56,799
of the sixth Secumenical Council. So
the six Ecumenical Council's lack of citing latter

1746
02:30:56,879 --> 02:31:01,280
in six forty nine as a papal
decision, it's elf proves that Roman Catholics

1747
02:31:01,360 --> 02:31:05,719
don't have a clear, coherent and
rather an involving idea of what counts as

1748
02:31:05,760 --> 02:31:11,719
ecumenical councils. And plus the Fifth
Ecumenical Council, the Emperor basically made the

1749
02:31:11,760 --> 02:31:16,040
Pope submit to it. So once
again you have many examples of this kind

1750
02:31:16,120 --> 02:31:20,200
of thing, which shows that you
guys don't have it either. And by

1751
02:31:20,239 --> 02:31:24,680
the way, Vatican two is hotly
disputed and very ambiguous when it comes to

1752
02:31:26,440 --> 02:31:30,440
more and more Roman Catholics themselves now
telling me thank you that you know they

1753
02:31:30,440 --> 02:31:35,040
don't believe in in Vatican two.
So what's your epistemic criteria for a universal

1754
02:31:35,159 --> 02:31:43,200
ecumenical council? Yeah, it's a
good question. I mean, as I

1755
02:31:43,239 --> 02:31:48,000
would traditionally say, as a standard
is you know what the Pope says is

1756
02:31:48,600 --> 02:31:50,200
what goes okay? And then why
wasn't latter in six forty nine and latter

1757
02:31:50,280 --> 02:31:54,399
in six forty nine is still not
listed by your church as an ecumenical council?

1758
02:31:54,440 --> 02:31:58,719
Why not? I wouldn't know.
I'd have to look into that specifically.

1759
02:31:58,799 --> 02:32:03,079
So that's definitely a good insight I
should look into. Yeah, well,

1760
02:32:03,120 --> 02:32:05,079
there's a lot of famous examples like
this, so it's not like this

1761
02:32:05,280 --> 02:32:07,479
is the only one. I mean, there's a whole case of Pope Vigilius.

1762
02:32:07,760 --> 02:32:13,319
You could watch the debate between UBI
and uh. Is it John?

1763
02:32:13,360 --> 02:32:18,600
I can't remeber if it's John Kolarafi
Or who's the other uniate The old hiccup

1764
02:32:18,639 --> 02:32:24,440
guy that wouldn't debate me because he
has hiccups, The UNI eight Roman Catholic

1765
02:32:24,440 --> 02:32:26,799
apologist, the boomer guy forget his
name, but he and UBI have a

1766
02:32:26,840 --> 02:32:30,680
debate over the Fifth Council on Pope
Vigilius, and you can see that he

1767
02:32:30,760 --> 02:32:35,319
didn't fare very well in that debate
with UBI either, gotcha? Okay,

1768
02:32:35,360 --> 02:32:39,120
well, no it, I'll definitely
check those out. I guess. So

1769
02:32:39,120 --> 02:32:45,680
if to simplify, then we don't
on the orthodox side of things, Getting

1770
02:32:45,719 --> 02:32:50,959
back to my original question, we
don't really have like a finite point where

1771
02:32:50,000 --> 02:32:58,840
the buck stops when it comes to
authoritatively understanding You know what makes the Act

1772
02:32:58,920 --> 02:33:01,000
Medical Council authority? If I guess
I heard from you was, well,

1773
02:33:01,360 --> 02:33:09,200
so now you're equivocating because authoritatively pronouncing
a council is different from understanding the council.

1774
02:33:09,319 --> 02:33:11,760
So if you're talking about normative authority, that's a different question from an

1775
02:33:11,799 --> 02:33:16,440
individual having certitude about what's true or
false, or what councils are true or

1776
02:33:16,440 --> 02:33:18,000
false. So those are two different
They're related, but there are two different

1777
02:33:18,040 --> 02:33:22,239
questions. So, for example,
we might agree you and I as Orthodox

1778
02:33:22,319 --> 02:33:26,319
and Catholic against a Protestant, for
example, that the Church in history has

1779
02:33:26,399 --> 02:33:30,639
normative authority. That means that you
and I both agree that there is a

1780
02:33:30,840 --> 02:33:35,239
historic body of people post apostles,
who have the ability to make decisions that

1781
02:33:35,680 --> 02:33:41,120
bind the consciences of believers to some
proposition. So we agree there against Protestants,

1782
02:33:41,360 --> 02:33:45,120
right, and that would be called
normative authority. However, there's a

1783
02:33:45,200 --> 02:33:50,200
separate topic in epistemology which relates to
individual certitude, and that's where me,

1784
02:33:50,719 --> 02:33:54,879
you, and Protestants all disagree because
we have different accounts of how that comes

1785
02:33:54,920 --> 02:34:01,319
about. We all agree that in
the final analysis, me, you,

1786
02:34:01,559 --> 02:34:05,799
and the Protestants, we all agree
that ultimately it's the Holy Spirit that grants

1787
02:34:05,879 --> 02:34:11,840
and convinces the individual of certitude,
but how that comes about we differ.

1788
02:34:11,040 --> 02:34:16,360
So for the Roman Catholic, it
comes about ultimately through papal fiat and decision.

1789
02:34:16,719 --> 02:34:20,040
For the Orthodox, it comes about
through a combination of means. That

1790
02:34:20,120 --> 02:34:22,440
would be the liturgy, the lives
of the saints, the life of the

1791
02:34:22,520 --> 02:34:26,879
church. It would be the church
fathers, the councils, the scriptures.

1792
02:34:26,920 --> 02:34:28,959
For us, all of those things
work together, so there's no like,

1793
02:34:30,600 --> 02:34:33,399
there's no one element that we say, oh, this is the thing that

1794
02:34:33,559 --> 02:34:35,600
is like the ultimate thing. So
we think all of those things go together

1795
02:34:35,719 --> 02:34:41,399
because divine revelation and the one true
faith has really expressed unanimously in all of

1796
02:34:41,479 --> 02:34:45,840
those areas, So there's not it
really makes no sense to pick one of

1797
02:34:45,879 --> 02:34:50,079
them out as like the thing,
right because for example, for us,

1798
02:34:50,479 --> 02:34:54,000
an ecumenical council is not some like
magical thing that just had one easy way

1799
02:34:54,079 --> 02:35:00,520
to identify. Ecumenical councils were part
and parcel of the Oicumenae or the So

1800
02:35:00,559 --> 02:35:03,200
when there's no longer an empire,
it really doesn't make sense to say that

1801
02:35:03,239 --> 02:35:07,040
there's an acumen a council anymore.
But there are. You could say,

1802
02:35:07,120 --> 02:35:09,120
pan Orthodox synods, you could say
that the Palament for us, the Palomite

1803
02:35:09,120 --> 02:35:13,559
synods have the same status and authority
because they've been received basically through the entire

1804
02:35:13,680 --> 02:35:16,879
Orthodox world by all the patriarchates,
et cetera. So a lot of those

1805
02:35:16,959 --> 02:35:22,200
kinds of we think there's a multiple
tiered thing that you could look at.

1806
02:35:22,559 --> 02:35:28,479
For example, the councils refer to
previous councils, the councils are in some

1807
02:35:28,600 --> 02:35:33,440
way referential to the patriarchates and all
the patriarchates accepting it, and the rest

1808
02:35:33,479 --> 02:35:39,120
of the church. And also you
have the idea of the theology itself actually

1809
02:35:39,239 --> 02:35:41,879
being true. So you know we
have the robber council mephesis. Well,

1810
02:35:43,079 --> 02:35:46,520
so do we only know what's the
true faith until when the Pope says,

1811
02:35:46,840 --> 02:35:50,479
oh, the robber Council's false?
Or could we identify the robber Council's false

1812
02:35:50,520 --> 02:35:54,120
prior to it? Well, I
can prove this to you easily, because

1813
02:35:54,399 --> 02:35:56,879
do you think that a Christian in
the year three hundred had access to what

1814
02:35:58,040 --> 02:36:03,479
the true faith was if he didn't
live in Rome? Okay, Well,

1815
02:36:03,680 --> 02:36:09,840
how would a Christian in three hundred
and say Ephesus know what the true faith

1816
02:36:09,000 --> 02:36:16,559
was? Well, I don't know
if I would go so far to say

1817
02:36:16,840 --> 02:36:22,360
he would completely understand the nuance of
his faith, but he had no just

1818
02:36:22,479 --> 02:36:26,760
knowing the true faith? Right.
So let's say I walk into Ephesus,

1819
02:36:26,840 --> 02:36:30,399
it's the year three hundred. There's
a bunch of different sects like ieron Aus

1820
02:36:30,520 --> 02:36:33,680
lists all the different Gnostics. Everybody's
claiming to be the one true followers of

1821
02:36:33,799 --> 02:36:39,159
Jesus. Uh. There is the
Orthodox Catholic Church uh. And then there's

1822
02:36:39,280 --> 02:36:43,200
other groups and splits and whatever's out
there. How how do I, as

1823
02:36:43,440 --> 02:36:46,719
a year three hundred person, come
to know what the true faith is?

1824
02:36:46,799 --> 02:36:48,719
Because I don't know what's going on
in Rome. It's the ancient world.

1825
02:36:50,120 --> 02:36:54,559
I can't send scroll emails to Rome
to get Pope whoever to answer me really

1826
02:36:54,639 --> 02:36:58,639
quick to tell me what the truth
is. There's no ecumenical council yet,

1827
02:37:00,079 --> 02:37:03,079
right, We've had what two hundred
plus years of Christianity, no ecumenical council.

1828
02:37:03,120 --> 02:37:07,239
How do I know what the true
faith is? If I'm a Vatican

1829
02:37:07,360 --> 02:37:11,440
One papist, I can't know.
I don't know. I have to literally

1830
02:37:11,479 --> 02:37:13,799
everybody have to go to Rome or
write letters to Rome to know what the

1831
02:37:13,879 --> 02:37:18,239
true faith was. You see how
silly this position leads, what at leadst

1832
02:37:18,239 --> 02:37:24,840
to? I mean, I get, I get what you're getting at I

1833
02:37:24,920 --> 02:37:28,200
mean back then, I think how
you would know if you were in a

1834
02:37:28,239 --> 02:37:30,920
true church? Are not, like
you're an answer ignacious? Imply would be

1835
02:37:31,799 --> 02:37:35,879
you know if you are if your
church is connected to a bishop that has

1836
02:37:35,920 --> 02:37:39,319
a possible succession. Okay, but
there's plenty of sex and there's plenty of

1837
02:37:39,360 --> 02:37:45,520
heretics and schismatics like the Novationists at
that time that had Avaslar succession. Right,

1838
02:37:45,559 --> 02:37:48,040
But that's exactly why we begin to
have counsels. I mean, dogmas

1839
02:37:48,120 --> 02:37:52,399
only seemed to rise when there's dispute, when there's confusion, right, Okay,

1840
02:37:52,479 --> 02:37:58,479
So but you said earlier that knowing
knowing related to ecumenical councils. But

1841
02:37:58,639 --> 02:38:01,280
now in the year three hundred,
knowing the faith doesn't relate to an ecumenical

1842
02:38:01,319 --> 02:38:07,520
council. Well, correct, because
the church is organic, right and like

1843
02:38:07,600 --> 02:38:13,639
I just said, dogmas rise with
disputation obviously, you know, so ecumenical

1844
02:38:13,680 --> 02:38:16,200
councils. So right, So knowing
the faith is not then tied to having

1845
02:38:16,200 --> 02:38:22,120
an ecumenical council. Well, it's
all about context. Is about the life

1846
02:38:22,159 --> 02:38:24,920
of the church. The church isn't
some like, how does that answer my

1847
02:38:24,159 --> 02:38:31,239
how does that answer the objection.
Uh, the objective safe the objection real

1848
02:38:31,319 --> 02:38:35,120
quick, would' mind? So this
contradicts what you said a minute ago that

1849
02:38:35,520 --> 02:38:39,520
ecumenical councils tell us and give us
knowledge of the faith. You said,

1850
02:38:39,680 --> 02:38:43,559
uh, infallibly knowing. I forget
what phrase you use something like that.

1851
02:38:46,680 --> 02:38:50,959
So which is it? Is it
that the councils give us the certitude and

1852
02:38:50,040 --> 02:38:56,440
knowledge of the faith or they don't. For sure they do, Okay,

1853
02:38:56,520 --> 02:38:58,840
So how would I know in the
year three hundred what the true faith was?

1854
02:39:00,120 --> 02:39:03,920
No council? I mean there's local
counties, we we I mean we

1855
02:39:05,000 --> 02:39:07,799
had the Council of Jerusalem. I
mean the Book of Acts. So again

1856
02:39:07,840 --> 02:39:09,040
I would say, here a yeah, but that's in scripture. I don't

1857
02:39:09,239 --> 02:39:13,879
Yeah, But but you're you're a
Roman Catholic and you're talking about so now

1858
02:39:13,959 --> 02:39:16,360
you're a Protestant in the year three
hundred, I go to scripture to figure

1859
02:39:16,360 --> 02:39:20,840
out whether true councils are well.
I think it would be a Protestant response

1860
02:39:20,959 --> 02:39:24,559
to say, we knew Florence was
rung because all the laymen disagreed. So

1861
02:39:24,920 --> 02:39:26,799
did I say that? I said, I said, the rest of the

1862
02:39:26,920 --> 02:39:31,600
Orthodox world, including the rest of
the bishops in the Orthodox world. I

1863
02:39:31,639 --> 02:39:35,920
didn't say all the laymen disagreed.
Sorry, that's why I heard. I

1864
02:39:35,000 --> 02:39:39,840
heard the Orthodox people disagree, and
that's why. And yeah, the Orthodox

1865
02:39:39,920 --> 02:39:43,959
people is made up of bishops and
laity, so you right, But but

1866
02:39:43,120 --> 02:39:48,159
the highest degrees of of the bishoprics
of the Orthodox world, we don't even

1867
02:39:48,239 --> 02:39:52,600
understand. There's not so mark of
Ephesus, right, did not go along

1868
02:39:52,680 --> 02:39:56,920
with it, And there's no like
it's not like the you're not listening,

1869
02:39:56,319 --> 02:40:00,520
so you don't understand our position.
The bishops are all equal, they have

1870
02:40:00,600 --> 02:40:07,120
canonical privileges. There's no super bishops
in the Orthodox Church there, okay,

1871
02:40:07,239 --> 02:40:13,319
So that means there's no higher authority
correct within every bishop is the same,

1872
02:40:13,399 --> 02:40:18,120
and that's correct, right, So
where does the buck stop with authority?

1873
02:40:18,200 --> 02:40:20,920
I mean, that's that seems to
be right. Understanding that that's not a

1874
02:40:20,959 --> 02:40:24,959
problem. That's a problem everybody has. That's my point. And I illustrated

1875
02:40:24,000 --> 02:40:26,479
this with how do I know the
true faith in the year three hundred?

1876
02:40:28,280 --> 02:40:31,879
Is that a problem everybody has?
How do I know the true faith in

1877
02:40:31,920 --> 02:40:35,040
the yearth three hundred? Can you
answer this or not? I feel like

1878
02:40:35,120 --> 02:40:37,680
I have What was the answer?
I didn't hear an answer. I heard

1879
02:40:37,719 --> 02:40:39,399
a bunch of talking around it.
What's the answer? All right, let

1880
02:40:39,440 --> 02:40:43,360
me let me answer. Let me
answer, and I'll tell you what I've

1881
02:40:43,360 --> 02:40:46,920
answered, and then please respond,
well, isn't this going to be the

1882
02:40:46,959 --> 02:40:50,399
answer? Why would you have to
tell me when you answered? I just

1883
02:40:50,479 --> 02:40:54,440
want to get the full, the
full thought out there. And I'm not

1884
02:40:54,639 --> 02:40:56,840
you know, I'm not as given
to debate or as gifted as debate with

1885
02:40:56,920 --> 02:41:01,639
you. So it takes me a
little longer do myation across. Okay,

1886
02:41:01,040 --> 02:41:07,000
so my so I guess my answer
to that would be is fundamentally I see

1887
02:41:07,079 --> 02:41:11,840
the church as something organic, as
something alive. Uh. I agree with

1888
02:41:11,920 --> 02:41:16,200
that. I agree with that amazing
uh. You know, as a very

1889
02:41:16,239 --> 02:41:20,959
simple example. And I'll come around
at the full point here, a very

1890
02:41:20,000 --> 02:41:24,799
simple example, you know, justin
Martyr obviously saying obviously knew the true faith?

1891
02:41:26,040 --> 02:41:31,239
Was he completely you know, as
perfectly nuanced as we would like to

1892
02:41:31,280 --> 02:41:35,799
see in the year twenty twenty four
when it comes to Christology and Trinitarian theology.

1893
02:41:37,639 --> 02:41:41,920
No, right, But as the
years went by, we had disputations

1894
02:41:41,959 --> 02:41:46,680
about the trinity. Therefore are ago
what ended up happening? As we had

1895
02:41:46,719 --> 02:41:52,360
a council begin to solve these things, and that's when you saw this pattern

1896
02:41:52,479 --> 02:41:56,680
happen. Yeah. I agree with
that pattern totally. Yeah, but that

1897
02:41:56,799 --> 02:41:58,520
doesn't how does that answer the question
of the year three hundred knowing what the

1898
02:41:58,559 --> 02:42:09,760
true faith is? Well, simply
because the true faith continuously extrapolates and becomes

1899
02:42:09,879 --> 02:42:16,159
clear as disputation arises. Okay,
so we don't know the trinity until people

1900
02:42:16,280 --> 02:42:20,200
disagree with it. That's a terrible
argument. I wouldn't say the average layman

1901
02:42:20,280 --> 02:42:24,559
would have a as nuanced and as
clear of an understanding of a theology pre

1902
02:42:24,680 --> 02:42:28,319
Cappadocian fathers or anything like that.
Yeah, absolutely not. But did they

1903
02:42:28,399 --> 02:42:33,399
not have a saving faith that you
know they weren't. Yeah, But none

1904
02:42:33,440 --> 02:42:37,760
of this addresses the objection that knowing
and asking what the Christian faith is in

1905
02:42:37,799 --> 02:42:41,760
the year three hundred without access to
Rome, without any ecumenical councils, disproves

1906
02:42:41,079 --> 02:42:50,639
your later argument that we need the
papacy to know the faith. Well,

1907
02:42:50,719 --> 02:42:54,000
I mean, I feel like that
would be getting into another conversation. No,

1908
02:42:54,120 --> 02:42:58,879
it's not. It's a perfect way
to illustrate the fallacy that you're relying

1909
02:42:58,879 --> 02:43:01,760
on. Let me give you another
examp up of this same position at the

1910
02:43:01,840 --> 02:43:05,639
time of constantin Noble One. You
mentioned the Cappadocians and constantin Noble One's the

1911
02:43:05,639 --> 02:43:09,520
Second Documenical Council, which gives the
Church the doctrine of the Trinity. At

1912
02:43:09,559 --> 02:43:13,079
the time of the council being held
and at its close, Saint Melidias of

1913
02:43:13,120 --> 02:43:16,680
Antioch was outside of communion with Rome, so he died in schism. The

1914
02:43:16,760 --> 02:43:20,879
Council of the Trinity was had outside
of communion with Rome, and yet the

1915
02:43:20,959 --> 02:43:24,959
council was still true. It correctly
taught the doctrine of the Trinity that the

1916
02:43:26,040 --> 02:43:30,639
Church accepted, and a couple hundred
years later Rome retroactively accepts that council.

1917
02:43:31,040 --> 02:43:37,399
So how does your position reconcile with
that fact? Well, simply because I

1918
02:43:37,479 --> 02:43:43,600
mean Rome still ended up accepting that. Obviously did the council. You don't

1919
02:43:43,600 --> 02:43:46,159
even understand the objection. Did the
council correctly teach the Trinity outside of Rome?

1920
02:43:46,879 --> 02:43:50,520
Yes? Okay? And your church
accepts Saint Melidios as a saint even

1921
02:43:50,520 --> 02:43:56,239
though he died out of community Rome, correct yep. Which is inconsistent because

1922
02:43:56,520 --> 02:43:58,840
when I'm signed them and Florence can
taught the Domino. What you just referenced.

1923
02:44:00,040 --> 02:44:01,879
Arrant says that anyone who dies outside
of communion with the realman bishop is

1924
02:44:01,959 --> 02:44:11,159
damned. So heretics and schismatics do
a council that correctly teaches the doctrine of

1925
02:44:11,159 --> 02:44:13,440
the Trinity, and so therefore that
alone, if you admit that it correctly,

1926
02:44:13,680 --> 02:44:16,840
that proves us that we prove that
we don't need the papacy to know

1927
02:44:16,959 --> 02:44:24,440
the true doctrin of the Attorney.
Well, the thing is is that we

1928
02:44:24,639 --> 02:44:28,239
that we still do. I mean, did you not hear what I just

1929
02:44:28,319 --> 02:44:31,120
said? You don't understand? No? No, no, Can you restate

1930
02:44:31,200 --> 02:44:35,239
to me what the argument is before
you move on? Sure? Okay,

1931
02:44:35,319 --> 02:44:41,760
the argument is, and I'll put
it very simply. You have these counsels

1932
02:44:41,920 --> 02:44:46,600
that correctly define theology, such as
the Attorney such as you know same Leadios,

1933
02:44:48,040 --> 02:44:56,159
who in fact was in excommunications from
Rome and died. So yet despite

1934
02:44:56,280 --> 02:45:03,040
Rome not acknowledging said council or set
Saint during the lifetime of these events,

1935
02:45:03,840 --> 02:45:09,639
they accepted them retroactively. Did the
council correctly teach about the Trinity? Yes?

1936
02:45:09,920 --> 02:45:13,719
And that was had outside of Rome, right, So do we need

1937
02:45:13,920 --> 02:45:20,280
Rome to know truth theology. Yes, okay, you just contradicted yourself because

1938
02:45:20,280 --> 02:45:22,840
you just admitted that they were outside
of commune with Rome, they correctly taught

1939
02:45:22,879 --> 02:45:26,120
and knew the Trinity, And now
you're saying that, No, so that's

1940
02:45:26,159 --> 02:45:31,639
a contradiction. But here here's the
difference in the perspective jet and feel free

1941
02:45:31,680 --> 02:45:35,719
to critique this as well as if
you find this erroneous. Yeah, did

1942
02:45:35,760 --> 02:45:41,239
the human who occupy the office of
the papacy and the magisterium itself not recognize

1943
02:45:41,280 --> 02:45:45,319
the truth as it was right under
their noses right then and there? Yes,

1944
02:45:45,639 --> 02:45:48,440
for sure. No, No,
that has nothing to do It's not

1945
02:45:48,520 --> 02:45:52,200
about the pope. It's about the
people at Constantinople one. Did they know

1946
02:45:52,399 --> 02:45:56,559
and recognize the true faith and the
true doctrine of the Trinity? Outside of

1947
02:45:56,600 --> 02:46:00,479
anything to do with the Bishop of
Rome. Have you read Basils letters how

1948
02:46:00,520 --> 02:46:05,200
he bitches about Rome being useless and
worthless at that time? So I'm serious,

1949
02:46:05,399 --> 02:46:09,680
what letter is this? I have
a whole lecture on all of Besils

1950
02:46:09,840 --> 02:46:11,600
letters, and I give the lecture. I give the letter in that lecture.

1951
02:46:11,799 --> 02:46:13,520
I can pull it out if you
really want me to. But the

1952
02:46:13,639 --> 02:46:18,440
point is that if you can,
I will give it to you. Yeah,

1953
02:46:18,520 --> 02:46:22,719
since you asked. But the point
is that the point is that the

1954
02:46:22,799 --> 02:46:30,799
people at the Council and the Cappadocians
and Militios correctly new and stated and defined

1955
02:46:31,280 --> 02:46:35,719
with nothing to do with Rome.
That proves that we don't need the Bishop

1956
02:46:35,799 --> 02:46:37,479
of Rome to know the true faith, and that disproves all of what you're

1957
02:46:37,559 --> 02:46:45,799
arguing. And Rome acknowledges that I
retroact basically what Jay's argument is. Rome

1958
02:46:46,000 --> 02:46:54,680
retrospectively acknowledges you don't need Rome by
accepting constant exactly right. I understand,

1959
02:46:54,719 --> 02:46:58,440
I understand the position for sure.
But I guess what I would say is

1960
02:46:58,520 --> 02:47:03,399
that the office itself didn't recognize that
as the truth, and it was that

1961
02:47:03,600 --> 02:47:09,799
often. That's irrelevant to what the
point is. You just admitted that it

1962
02:47:09,879 --> 02:47:13,000
doesn't matter that it recognized the two
new years later because the people at that

1963
02:47:13,159 --> 02:47:15,680
time didn't need Rome. That's the
point. You don't see this. This

1964
02:47:15,840 --> 02:47:22,879
is obvious that those people did not
need Rome, but that truth needed Rome

1965
02:47:24,000 --> 02:47:26,840
to be its preserver and it's guarantor
throughout the agency. No, I didn't,

1966
02:47:28,399 --> 02:47:31,840
that's in fact, in fact,
Pope, in fact, Pope Benedict

1967
02:47:31,879 --> 02:47:35,319
says that the Orthodox Church has maintained
the Christian faith for the last thousand years,

1968
02:47:37,360 --> 02:47:39,680
So yeah, thank you exactly.
Therefore, we don't need Rome to

1969
02:47:39,920 --> 02:47:58,680
have the faith. So this is
Basil's letter eighty starts on uh, let's

1970
02:47:58,680 --> 02:48:05,280
see six to Athanasius of Alexandria.
That's where he starts complaining about Rome.

1971
02:48:05,120 --> 02:48:13,600
And it goes all the way up
to letter sixty nine, seven to seven

1972
02:48:13,840 --> 02:48:18,280
the title what was the title of
that letter? Again, letter sixty six

1973
02:48:18,360 --> 02:48:24,280
to Athanasius of Alexandria, and it
continues all the way to letter seventy.

1974
02:48:24,360 --> 02:48:28,799
So look at Basil's letter letters,
and you'll notice that everything sat Basil says

1975
02:48:28,840 --> 02:48:35,280
about Rome is absolutely preposterous when viewed
in light of what Vatican One says about

1976
02:48:35,319 --> 02:48:39,559
Rome. Roger, okay, and
I have a whole lecture on all of

1977
02:48:39,600 --> 02:48:45,520
Basil's letters, by the way,
on your YouTube. Yes, okay,

1978
02:48:45,680 --> 02:48:48,040
very good. I'll look for those. So I just want to say this,

1979
02:48:48,200 --> 02:48:56,639
then, I understand that you see
a contradiction because certain people had a

1980
02:48:56,680 --> 02:49:00,920
council, they discovered a truth room, didn't recognize it during the lifetime.

1981
02:49:01,000 --> 02:49:03,440
No, it's not just certain people. It's what the East called an ecumenical

1982
02:49:03,520 --> 02:49:07,520
council, and they didn't care if
Rome accepted it or not, and then

1983
02:49:07,639 --> 02:49:11,120
Rome retroactively accepted it. So I
guess again, I'll just ask what it's

1984
02:49:11,559 --> 02:49:13,879
It's the Cappa Docians, the very
people that you appeal to a minute ago.

1985
02:49:13,959 --> 02:49:18,000
It's not just anybody. It's Basil
Cappadocians, and particularly Gregor of Nissa,

1986
02:49:18,079 --> 02:49:22,719
who was the You realize that after
consun that won, the Emperor said

1987
02:49:22,719 --> 02:49:24,639
that if you don't just if you
don't agree with Nissa's theology, you're wrong,

1988
02:49:24,920 --> 02:49:28,559
particularly in the Trinity. You're right, I understand that. But if

1989
02:49:28,639 --> 02:49:33,159
we get back to my original question, my question was, how does the

1990
02:49:33,319 --> 02:49:39,120
Orthodox understand, you know, what
is the common common golden thread throughout ecumenical

1991
02:49:39,200 --> 02:49:45,200
councils that that give them the same
normative authority. How do we what's that?

1992
02:49:45,239 --> 02:49:48,959
What's the criteria which they're all commonly
judged by. Yeah, there's not

1993
02:49:48,120 --> 02:49:54,159
there's not. There's not a single
thing like let Western people think of and

1994
02:49:54,319 --> 02:49:58,799
want to identify quote ecumenical councils.
And that's my point that I brought up

1995
02:49:58,840 --> 02:50:01,879
early, that you don't have that
in Rome either. So this is really

1996
02:50:03,000 --> 02:50:05,600
a bugaboo that Roman Catholics like to
pull out which they don't even have.

1997
02:50:05,760 --> 02:50:09,799
That's my point. So, but
we can give you the criteria what we

1998
02:50:09,000 --> 02:50:15,239
think identifies authoritative councils. Okay,
but but yeah, so what but what

1999
02:50:15,440 --> 02:50:18,520
is the process then? Because I
would say to you it would ultimately be

2000
02:50:18,680 --> 02:50:22,120
Rome. Rome would be the ultimate. So yeah, just so starting your

2001
02:50:22,440 --> 02:50:24,680
so a contrary to all the stuff
that I say, you just assert the

2002
02:50:24,680 --> 02:50:28,360
position again. And I already gave
the examples to where just saying Rome it

2003
02:50:28,399 --> 02:50:31,760
doesn't even work. No no,
no, no, no, no,

2004
02:50:31,959 --> 02:50:33,520
okay, okay, So why is
it latter in six forty nine and ecumenical

2005
02:50:33,559 --> 02:50:39,920
council? I do I would have
to look into that one specifically, I'm

2006
02:50:39,920 --> 02:50:43,479
not I'm not equipped to answer that. Particularly all as per Vatican ones definitions,

2007
02:50:43,559 --> 02:50:46,239
it meets all the criteria to be
an ecumenical council, and yet it's

2008
02:50:46,280 --> 02:50:52,719
not. And do you understand that
Roman Catholics themselves have numbered the ecumenical councils

2009
02:50:52,799 --> 02:51:01,000
differently in history? Well, I
know the Orthodox also have disagreement particular counsel.

2010
02:51:01,079 --> 02:51:05,040
Yeah, so this exactly so,
So this is why this argument doesn't

2011
02:51:05,079 --> 02:51:07,840
get us anywhere. It's a bugaboo. Well it doesn't. But the reason

2012
02:51:07,920 --> 02:51:11,200
it does is because in the Catholic
Church we do we do have one head,

2013
02:51:11,280 --> 02:51:16,079
we do have one decider, the
magisterium. Yeah, but you're yeah,

2014
02:51:16,120 --> 02:51:18,159
but it doesn't actually do the work. That's my point. So is

2015
02:51:18,280 --> 02:51:24,840
Vatican to an authoritative counsel or not? Well, I'm not. I'm not

2016
02:51:24,879 --> 02:51:26,600
in the magisterium, so I can't
speak on that one as well. Wait

2017
02:51:26,600 --> 02:51:30,760
a minute, I thought the prone
the magisterium is to make the laity know

2018
02:51:31,000 --> 02:51:33,600
the true faith, and so you
don't know. No, I don't know

2019
02:51:33,680 --> 02:51:37,559
about that one day. I don't
know about that one. So okay,

2020
02:51:37,600 --> 02:51:41,559
So the magisterium doesn't do the work
to actually identify for you what's the true

2021
02:51:41,559 --> 02:51:46,200
faith and what's not. Well,
I would say Vatican too clearly. I

2022
02:51:46,280 --> 02:51:48,760
mean I don't a week, I
don't know. If I want to get

2023
02:51:48,799 --> 02:51:50,559
it to be the weeds of a
Vatican two, why not. I mean,

2024
02:51:50,680 --> 02:51:56,920
if the principle is that the papacy
gives epistemic certitude, then that's precisely

2025
02:51:56,920 --> 02:51:58,600
where we should go, because that's
the most controversial thing in the Roman Catholic

2026
02:51:58,639 --> 02:52:01,959
world in the hundred years. So
we've had seventy years of the papacy teaching

2027
02:52:03,040 --> 02:52:07,680
Vatican two, so obviously it's authoritative
from the papacy's perspective. So you know,

2028
02:52:07,840 --> 02:52:09,079
do you believe in do you okay? So do you believe in religious

2029
02:52:09,079 --> 02:52:11,399
liberty? Do you believe that?
Do you believe that Muslims worship God like

2030
02:52:11,520 --> 02:52:16,000
you do? Absolutely not? Absolutely
not, okay? So you don't follow

2031
02:52:16,120 --> 02:52:24,200
the magisterial teachings of Rome. I
don't know what it would be in Vatican

2032
02:52:24,239 --> 02:52:28,479
two. I facilily don't follow.
But what I would say NOWT says that

2033
02:52:28,639 --> 02:52:33,799
Muslims and Jews worship the same God
as the Christians. Muslims and Hindus approach

2034
02:52:33,920 --> 02:52:39,360
God in love and faith in love. Yeah, and love is love,

2035
02:52:39,399 --> 02:52:43,000
as we all know. So I
understand. I understand where you're getting at,

2036
02:52:43,559 --> 02:52:48,120
and I know you're not amiss.
You know, the trad traditional Catholic

2037
02:52:48,120 --> 02:52:50,719
position or anything like that. I
was a trad for many years. I

2038
02:52:50,799 --> 02:52:52,440
know all about it. I lived
that world. I went to Latin Massa

2039
02:52:52,719 --> 02:52:58,639
for eight years, right, beautiful, beautiful. Yeah. I currently attend

2040
02:52:58,239 --> 02:53:05,360
very traditional glordinary church. So yeah, that's that's awesome. I don't you

2041
02:53:05,440 --> 02:53:07,639
know, I could re litigate this
with you, but I think it'd be

2042
02:53:07,680 --> 02:53:13,719
familiar territory. You know. Again, I'm just curious with these councils from

2043
02:53:13,760 --> 02:53:18,559
the Orthodox position, what is the
way to determine, like, what is

2044
02:53:18,639 --> 02:53:22,280
that single soul criteria? I would
there's not a single soul criteria. That's

2045
02:53:22,280 --> 02:53:26,399
my whole point. That's what I
just said. There's nothing about this idea

2046
02:53:26,479 --> 02:53:31,760
that there's a there's a magical thing
that tells you what the ecumenical councils are.

2047
02:53:33,280 --> 02:53:35,959
It doesn't exist. It wouldn't be
like a magic it wouldn't be a

2048
02:53:37,079 --> 02:53:39,120
magic, no, but it's treated
that. What I'm saying is is treated

2049
02:53:39,159 --> 02:53:41,559
that way in the romancality position,
because you think that just saying the papacy

2050
02:53:41,680 --> 02:53:46,040
tells you that I just asked you
about the most controversial council the last hundred

2051
02:53:46,079 --> 02:53:48,879
years, and you say, I
can't tell you, so it doesn't even

2052
02:53:48,920 --> 02:53:50,920
do the work for you. Well, I'm I'm sure you've heard this in

2053
02:53:52,079 --> 02:53:56,360
traditional Catholic circles. But when you
take a perspective on councils and theology and

2054
02:53:56,399 --> 02:53:58,719
stuff, and I know this is
in a mis Orthodox as well. We

2055
02:53:58,799 --> 02:54:01,799
don't look at this, we don't
look at span of decades with the span

2056
02:54:01,879 --> 02:54:03,559
of centuries, it's not millennium,
right, Okay, Well, I mean

2057
02:54:03,799 --> 02:54:09,479
so Vatican two is almost a century
old, it's like seventy years from ongoing,

2058
02:54:11,399 --> 02:54:15,159
correct, and there's superior factors behind
it. So we only know Vatican

2059
02:54:15,280 --> 02:54:18,600
we'll only we'll only know Vatican.
It won't matter how many centuries go by,

2060
02:54:18,680 --> 02:54:22,799
though, because it's already confirmed by
the papacy. And according to Vatican

2061
02:54:22,879 --> 02:54:26,040
one, whatever's confirmed by the papacy
is dogma, right, Okay? But

2062
02:54:26,239 --> 02:54:33,000
was Vatican two declared infallible? Absolutely? Did it make any anathemas? I

2063
02:54:33,040 --> 02:54:35,840
mean, well, there's nothing,
there's nothing that says that something has to

2064
02:54:35,879 --> 02:54:39,639
happen anathema attached to it to be
infallible. In fact, I've listed four

2065
02:54:41,799 --> 02:54:45,600
papal statements about Vatican two being infallible, which I have a whole list.

2066
02:54:45,680 --> 02:54:48,760
Would you like that list? Sure? But those are all going to be

2067
02:54:48,840 --> 02:54:54,760
post Vatican two. Correct. What
does that? I mean the principle in

2068
02:54:54,840 --> 02:54:58,000
your church that you just identified as
the papacy, So it doesn't matter when

2069
02:54:58,079 --> 02:55:03,280
he says it your post Vatican two
if no, totally, it totally matters.

2070
02:55:03,319 --> 02:55:05,760
No, it doesn't think well,
during the Airyan controversy. You just

2071
02:55:05,920 --> 02:55:11,280
argue that, oh, you just
argue that the papacy just one second,

2072
02:55:11,319 --> 02:55:16,399
you argue that the papacy retroactively two
hundred years later could affirm Constantinople one.

2073
02:55:16,600 --> 02:55:20,840
And you said that was okay.
But if Francis and company retroact or post

2074
02:55:20,959 --> 02:55:26,479
Vatican two, say Vatican two is
dogmatic, now you don't have to listen

2075
02:55:26,520 --> 02:55:28,920
to it. No. I mean, I see on the face how that

2076
02:55:30,000 --> 02:55:33,079
seems like a contradiction. But let
me, let me explain myself. Let

2077
02:55:33,120 --> 02:55:35,840
me explain myself. So the Pope
at the time of affinacious of Alexandria,

2078
02:55:35,920 --> 02:55:41,879
during the Aery controversy, he excommunicated
him rw We we came to learn later

2079
02:55:43,520 --> 02:55:46,639
that And I'm not saying this is
exactly what's happening now, but I'm I'm

2080
02:55:46,680 --> 02:55:50,239
saying that there are nuances behind the
scenes that maybe we're not pretty to as

2081
02:55:50,280 --> 02:55:52,440
the people were living immediately in those
things. But this won't matter. This

2082
02:55:52,520 --> 02:55:56,399
won't matter, because what does Vatican
one say about what the Pope confirms for

2083
02:55:56,639 --> 02:56:00,280
all of the church and for all
times? Now? I can I could

2084
02:56:00,280 --> 02:56:01,000
see, maybe you could say,
I see where you're going. You're saying,

2085
02:56:01,079 --> 02:56:05,959
well, maybe like Vigilius, there
was a compelling that the pope didn't

2086
02:56:07,040 --> 02:56:11,639
have, you know, free exercises
as will right, maybe the pope was

2087
02:56:11,760 --> 02:56:13,600
under duress from I don't know.
Let's say the CIA went in and said,

2088
02:56:13,639 --> 02:56:16,680
hey, you're going to confirm Vatican
two because we want it all right,

2089
02:56:16,799 --> 02:56:20,719
so theoretically right, so yeah,
I could say, I could see,

2090
02:56:20,920 --> 02:56:22,520
maybe you could have some argument that
Poe, that John twyn third or

2091
02:56:22,520 --> 02:56:26,600
Paul the six did this out of
duress. However, the problem is that

2092
02:56:26,760 --> 02:56:31,639
you can't have seventy years of duress
because Vatican One says that the See of

2093
02:56:31,719 --> 02:56:35,040
Peter will never cease to have an
authoritative magisterial successor and to the end of

2094
02:56:35,120 --> 02:56:41,799
the world. And so that constituent
element of the papacy upholding not just dogma

2095
02:56:41,920 --> 02:56:46,319
but also the unity and also the
preservation can never go away. If it

2096
02:56:46,440 --> 02:56:50,639
does and it loses one of its
constituent elements, and if and if you

2097
02:56:50,719 --> 02:56:54,040
haven't read, you know, the
fifteen or so pages of Vatican One,

2098
02:56:54,040 --> 02:56:58,680
I highly recommend reading it. Yeah, I definitely need to reread it,

2099
02:56:58,760 --> 02:57:05,399
that's for sure. It's been a
while, but I mean the right so

2100
02:57:05,879 --> 02:57:11,799
just to finish my point. I
think you were aty you already understood under

2101
02:57:11,879 --> 02:57:18,159
duress. Uh. He released it
later seeing Anthonisius never blamed itfore it Yes,

2102
02:57:18,200 --> 02:57:20,959
it's been seven years. Uh.
Is there dress on the Vatican now?

2103
02:57:22,479 --> 02:57:24,319
Absolutely? And I know you you
wouldn't disagree with that either. What

2104
02:57:24,479 --> 02:57:28,799
will we know about these events in
one hundred, two hundred years? You

2105
02:57:28,879 --> 02:57:33,040
know I knows a hold on.
So let's say that theoretically in your model

2106
02:57:33,239 --> 02:57:37,440
there was duress for the last Uh. Uh I don't know seventy years of

2107
02:57:37,559 --> 02:57:41,600
papacy, and therefore we can retroactively
cancel all that out. Why does that

2108
02:57:41,719 --> 02:57:46,639
not open up the possibility of every
ecumenical Council on people teaching being subject to

2109
02:57:46,760 --> 02:57:50,600
duress and therefore pious the Ninth Vatican
One was also under duress, and therefore

2110
02:57:50,639 --> 02:57:58,559
all of it it's placed into a
doubt. Well, that's almost an impossible

2111
02:57:58,639 --> 02:58:01,639
question to answer, right, because
then we're getting into the specifics. Well,

2112
02:58:01,680 --> 02:58:03,319
but we're out the point now where
you're arguing that we will never know

2113
02:58:03,399 --> 02:58:07,360
what the true teaching Aboutican two was
until two three hundred years into the future.

2114
02:58:07,399 --> 02:58:09,520
So really, now we're at the
point where Magisterium isn't doing us any

2115
02:58:09,559 --> 02:58:16,840
good at all? Do you think
that in the Orthodox world, and this

2116
02:58:16,000 --> 02:58:18,920
is a response to what you just
said, do you think in the Orthodox

2117
02:58:20,000 --> 02:58:26,520
world your respective bishops still have questions
that need to be answered for the faithful,

2118
02:58:26,600 --> 02:58:31,840
or there's still important disagreements within Orthodoxy. Sure, but I don't place

2119
02:58:33,440 --> 02:58:39,920
the epistemic principle being a guy in
Rome. Well where, But that's exactly

2120
02:58:39,959 --> 02:58:43,399
my question. Where is that principle? Right? So the normative authority question

2121
02:58:43,559 --> 02:58:46,680
is different from the epistemic question.
That's what you seem to be confusing.

2122
02:58:46,840 --> 02:58:52,680
Right, So we both agree that
there is a body of people within history.

2123
02:58:52,959 --> 02:58:56,680
For us, it's the local Orthodox
bishop or Orthodox synods. You understand

2124
02:58:56,719 --> 02:58:58,879
the church is normally governed by local
synods, right, it's not That's why

2125
02:59:00,000 --> 02:59:03,159
for three hundred years there is no
ecumenical council. You know, at the

2126
02:59:03,239 --> 02:59:07,000
time of three hundred we don't know
what Nicia will teach because Nicia hasn't happened

2127
02:59:07,040 --> 02:59:09,760
yet. And yet can we still
know the faith? We still know what

2128
02:59:09,840 --> 02:59:13,360
the doctrines and dogmas are because it's
not hinging on what's going on in Rome.

2129
02:59:13,440 --> 02:59:24,200
But listen are But so what Alexandria
Alexandra document. Alexandria document admits that

2130
02:59:24,280 --> 02:59:26,799
the appleist structure of the Sartican you
know, canons or whatever, it's not

2131
02:59:26,920 --> 02:59:31,719
Vatican one. So what you got
to demonstrate is that Vatican one is taught

2132
02:59:31,840 --> 02:59:33,879
in the first thousand years. And
that's what no Roman Catholic can do,

2133
02:59:33,920 --> 02:59:37,239
because even the Vatican now admits that
the Vatican one view is not taught in

2134
02:59:37,239 --> 02:59:41,399
the first thousan years. Have you
read Alexandria document. No, I am

2135
02:59:41,479 --> 02:59:46,159
not, okay. So now Rome
is admitting about ninety percent of our arguments

2136
02:59:46,280 --> 02:59:54,360
allat the Alexandria document. So what
does that mean? Sounds like he sounds

2137
02:59:54,399 --> 02:59:58,360
like he's bounding. Okay, So
now it's Francis and I can we handwave

2138
02:59:58,360 --> 03:00:00,799
it because I don't believe. I
don't care what francis. Yeah, but

2139
03:00:00,920 --> 03:00:03,200
see, that's the thing is that
if you, uh, if you look

2140
03:00:03,200 --> 03:00:07,120
at Vatican one, like you don't
have the the the ability as a Catholic

2141
03:00:07,200 --> 03:00:13,280
layperson to hand way Francis. No, I don't. But an immediate pope

2142
03:00:13,360 --> 03:00:18,559
could I mean Pope pious? He
was condemned, heretic at a council by

2143
03:00:18,680 --> 03:00:22,360
his immediate successor and and all the
other bishops. Yeah, and did that

2144
03:00:22,520 --> 03:00:24,920
and did that. Yeah, but
you didn't seem no, you just you

2145
03:00:26,040 --> 03:00:28,959
just you missed everything that I again, that's why latter in six forty nine

2146
03:00:30,040 --> 03:00:33,920
is so important, because the Council
didn't just restate latter in six forty nine,

2147
03:00:33,920 --> 03:00:35,760
which had already condemned monothelitism, which
if they were papal, that's what

2148
03:00:35,879 --> 03:00:39,920
they would have done. Rather they
investigate the writings and condemned the pope.

2149
03:00:41,200 --> 03:00:43,600
So it's not a papal council like
you guys want to make it by the

2150
03:00:43,639 --> 03:00:46,879
mere fact that they didn't just cite
letter in six forty nine. I mean,

2151
03:00:46,959 --> 03:00:50,200
if Vatican one was true, then
the sixth Secumentical Council wasn't necessary.

2152
03:00:52,200 --> 03:00:54,360
I feel like what you're saying is, you know, like if we just

2153
03:00:54,440 --> 03:00:56,200
brought this down to like a very
simple judicial system, right, So in

2154
03:00:56,239 --> 03:00:58,559
other words, let's ignore all the
arguments and let's just bring it down to

2155
03:00:58,639 --> 03:01:03,879
something simple. But that's a false
analogy because you can't make you hear Can

2156
03:01:03,920 --> 03:01:07,760
you just hear me? Your breadth
of knowledge and you know, logic and

2157
03:01:07,799 --> 03:01:13,479
all that far greater than mine.
Obviously, if anything just helped me cash

2158
03:01:13,600 --> 03:01:18,600
up to you and tell me what
you think about this simple analogy. So,

2159
03:01:18,440 --> 03:01:22,000
uh, in a basic let's say
two people go to court, they

2160
03:01:22,120 --> 03:01:28,559
hash out something about we're in America, they hash out about something about the

2161
03:01:28,600 --> 03:01:35,239
Constitution, and uh, you know
that court rules in favor of the defendant,

2162
03:01:35,440 --> 03:01:39,239
It gets appeal, that goes to
the Supreme Court, and then the

2163
03:01:39,280 --> 03:01:46,200
Supreme Court confirms what that lower course
position was. We would understand that is,

2164
03:01:46,319 --> 03:01:50,079
Yeah, that's exactly how an app
appellate structure works. Do they discover

2165
03:01:50,239 --> 03:01:54,440
the truth in that original court hearing
at the lower local level? Do you

2166
03:01:54,520 --> 03:01:58,120
think that there? Okay, But
this analogy doesn't work because, as has

2167
03:01:58,159 --> 03:02:01,520
already admitted in Roman Catholicty alone,
the appellate court structure of the Canons of

2168
03:02:01,559 --> 03:02:05,280
Sartica is not Vatican one. So
if you're trying to make an analogy,

2169
03:02:05,680 --> 03:02:13,079
the actual history of the Church and
the Canons of Sartica don't work, right.

2170
03:02:13,159 --> 03:02:16,200
Yeah, I guess I can't really
answer that. So Canons of Sartica,

2171
03:02:16,319 --> 03:02:18,159
if you read the if Yeah,
there's a good book that discusses this

2172
03:02:18,280 --> 03:02:22,680
in a whole chapter by Edward Denny. It's called Papalism by Denny, and

2173
03:02:22,680 --> 03:02:26,799
there's a great chapter on Sartka in
there. UBI also has debates where Sartika

2174
03:02:26,879 --> 03:02:31,079
comes up. Sartaka calls for another
local synod. Oops. Uh, oh,

2175
03:02:31,239 --> 03:02:35,200
that's not papalism, because if it
was papalism, the Appleate structure would

2176
03:02:35,239 --> 03:02:39,840
not call for another council. It
would call for the decision of the Bishop

2177
03:02:39,879 --> 03:02:46,399
of Rome. I don't know how
that necessarily falls though, I mean,

2178
03:02:46,479 --> 03:02:50,520
why would we have another council if
the whole point is that the Bishop of

2179
03:02:50,639 --> 03:02:54,200
Rome can solve it? Well,
the Bishop of Rome is in some sort

2180
03:02:54,200 --> 03:02:56,799
of ora called by it I comes
out. Okay, Well, then Vatican

2181
03:02:56,879 --> 03:03:01,680
one is not true because Vatican one
that this room is an oracle who's solved.

2182
03:03:01,799 --> 03:03:03,280
You're arguing that he solves the problems. That's the whole point. What

2183
03:03:03,319 --> 03:03:05,159
do you mean? All right,
well, hey, you got you got

2184
03:03:05,239 --> 03:03:11,239
me on it. Okay, But
yeah, I think you get what I

2185
03:03:11,360 --> 03:03:18,440
mean, you know, regardless of
agreement. Yeah, I just think that

2186
03:03:18,559 --> 03:03:24,520
the appellate structure analogy, uh,
has already happened. And it's the Canons

2187
03:03:24,559 --> 03:03:28,399
of Sartica in in the early Church
and the Canons of Sartica again, I

2188
03:03:28,520 --> 03:03:33,799
think they're even discussed in the Alexandria
document if I remember. Let me see,

2189
03:03:33,280 --> 03:03:37,600
I think it even points out that, like it doesn't actually do anything

2190
03:03:37,639 --> 03:03:43,440
to prove the Vatican One view.
And I know, I know you've handled

2191
03:03:43,479 --> 03:03:46,600
this one many a time, but
refresh me if you would. What what

2192
03:03:46,680 --> 03:03:54,159
do you make about the obviously the
dispute between Carill and Bartholomew, because they're

2193
03:03:54,200 --> 03:04:00,680
both trying to appeal to a universal
authority by by trying to decide, throwing

2194
03:04:00,719 --> 03:04:07,440
diosis in limits outside of the mutually
agreed Yeah, I mean we've had these

2195
03:04:07,559 --> 03:04:11,159
kinds of problems in the first thousand
years of the Church, where patriarchs were

2196
03:04:13,239 --> 03:04:16,120
in schism and disagreeing with one another. So like, how does that,

2197
03:04:16,959 --> 03:04:20,399
Well, what does that have to
do with proving whether the papacy is true

2198
03:04:20,479 --> 03:04:24,120
or not? Well, it would
have to do with it, because how

2199
03:04:24,200 --> 03:04:28,319
can either of them claim a universality
and their decisions if none of them had

2200
03:04:28,360 --> 03:04:33,879
a universal claim to begin Well,
the whole functioning of Orthodox canon law and

2201
03:04:35,040 --> 03:04:39,319
synods is different than the way that
things function in the Roman Catholic world,

2202
03:04:39,479 --> 03:04:41,479
right, So I mean there's a
whole process, for example, as to

2203
03:04:41,520 --> 03:04:46,760
how this goes about. Like so
For example, in our canon law,

2204
03:04:46,879 --> 03:04:52,200
there's stages of canonical discipline. The
first stage is removal of communion, so

2205
03:04:52,399 --> 03:04:56,280
we're still at the stage where there
is no longer communion between Kirill and Bartholomew.

2206
03:04:56,600 --> 03:05:00,920
And then the next stages that follow
would be like actually communication and so

2207
03:05:01,440 --> 03:05:03,440
yeah, it's true that you could
have a lot of people who, let's

2208
03:05:03,440 --> 03:05:05,879
say, let's say that let's say
the orth the doc Church gets split down

2209
03:05:05,920 --> 03:05:09,879
the middle. You could have a
lot of people who say, well,

2210
03:05:09,920 --> 03:05:16,079
I'm going to side with you know, the the EP or whatever. And

2211
03:05:16,159 --> 03:05:20,159
then yeah, definitely it would it
would probably be a situation where time eventually

2212
03:05:20,280 --> 03:05:24,079
tells like who's the you know,
the true true faith and who's the false

2213
03:05:24,120 --> 03:05:28,840
faith. But if you go to
the first thousand years of Christianity, you'll

2214
03:05:28,879 --> 03:05:31,559
find many examples of where we had
schisms like this, and in many of

2215
03:05:31,600 --> 03:05:35,440
those cases, as referenced by the
Malician schism, and what I talked about

2216
03:05:35,479 --> 03:05:39,680
with Basil, Rome didn't do anything
to solve the problem. In fact,

2217
03:05:39,719 --> 03:05:45,760
Basil complains that Rome is part of
the problem, right, Yeah, and

2218
03:05:45,840 --> 03:05:48,120
I I would need to read the
context. Well, it's just again,

2219
03:05:48,120 --> 03:05:52,200
it's only like it's only like four
or five pages of letters. Like I

2220
03:05:52,239 --> 03:05:54,760
said, sixty six to seventy,
I think I'll definitely read it. I'll

2221
03:05:54,799 --> 03:05:58,079
definitely read it for sure. And
that was the letter to Alexandria by Basil.

2222
03:05:58,639 --> 03:06:05,879
The first of the series of letters
on this issue is letter excuse me,

2223
03:06:05,959 --> 03:06:09,799
I think it's seventy one. I
might have missed. It's his letter

2224
03:06:09,879 --> 03:06:16,959
to Athenacious. You know who Athenasius
is. I'm sure Letter to Athenais eight

2225
03:06:16,840 --> 03:06:22,399
sixty Oh, is this through an
arian controversy? No, it's posted the

2226
03:06:22,479 --> 03:06:26,680
year three seventy one. It's letters. Hold on, it's letter sixty six,

2227
03:06:28,280 --> 03:06:35,200
Alesandrew, he's writing too correct interesting
the letter sixty six, sixty seven,

2228
03:06:35,319 --> 03:06:37,840
sixty eight, sixty nine and seventy. It's not that long. It's

2229
03:06:37,879 --> 03:06:43,239
about I don't know, maybe seven
or eight pages printed out, and he

2230
03:06:43,399 --> 03:06:48,159
talks about uh. By the way, you'll notice that he calls Antioch the

2231
03:06:48,239 --> 03:06:52,920
head church there, which Antioch is
not. The Head's just flowery terminology the

2232
03:06:52,000 --> 03:06:54,799
church fathers use all the time.
He says, I've asked for help from

2233
03:06:54,879 --> 03:07:00,360
Rome, from the West. They've
done nothing. He says that anti is

2234
03:07:00,360 --> 03:07:03,280
the head of the whole body.
Again, could we take that out of

2235
03:07:03,399 --> 03:07:07,120
context and make it say that the
Bishop of Antioch is the head of the

2236
03:07:07,120 --> 03:07:11,280
whole church. He says that when
I've asked rom to correct the unreally they've

2237
03:07:11,280 --> 03:07:15,280
failed. They've failed in the Orthodox
faith. They're worthless, They've given no

2238
03:07:15,399 --> 03:07:20,000
help. Rome has failed to condemn
heresies. Rome is ignorant, on and

2239
03:07:20,079 --> 03:07:22,520
on on. All he does is
talk about how much of a failure Rome

2240
03:07:22,680 --> 03:07:28,600
is and uh, yeah, where's
Vatican won in any of that? Right?

2241
03:07:28,680 --> 03:07:31,200
I mean I would echo those sentiments
as well currently, Okay, but

2242
03:07:31,319 --> 03:07:35,600
you don't have the liberty of that. If Vatican one is part of your

2243
03:07:35,639 --> 03:07:37,639
dogma, you don't have that liberty. Okay. So if you want to

2244
03:07:37,680 --> 03:07:41,959
agree with Saint Basol, then you're
on our side, because that's not a

2245
03:07:41,040 --> 03:07:46,920
Vatican one attitude. That's a battitude. That's a that's a vatitude. That's

2246
03:07:46,959 --> 03:07:50,840
not that's not a ratitude. All
right, So let's go to decrees of

2247
03:07:50,920 --> 03:07:56,200
Vatican one and we read that and
we find out what you actually have to

2248
03:07:56,239 --> 03:07:58,479
believe in regard to papal supremacy.
So you don't have the liberty of doing

2249
03:07:58,479 --> 03:08:03,120
that. You can't be Orthodox.
And Romancallo at the same time, Are

2250
03:08:03,159 --> 03:08:05,559
there like a few key lines with
Vatican one that you find is most problematic

2251
03:08:05,639 --> 03:08:09,799
that you could sign right now?
Or does it? Just go go to

2252
03:08:09,920 --> 03:08:13,719
papalincyclicals dot net and print out the
ten or fifteen pages and you'll see that

2253
03:08:15,200 --> 03:08:20,399
you don't have the liberty of degree
disagreeing with the papal ordinary magisterial teaching.

2254
03:08:20,479 --> 03:08:24,520
And in fact, even when it's
not magisterial ordinary teaching, even when it's

2255
03:08:24,760 --> 03:08:28,520
just ordinary, you have to submit
with docility to it, even if you

2256
03:08:28,600 --> 03:08:33,239
disagree. So how do you submit
to docility if you go to the SSPX

2257
03:08:37,559 --> 03:08:39,920
right, Well, yeah, and
that's a p that's canonically irregular. I

2258
03:08:39,959 --> 03:08:43,399
don't cur I don't presently go there. Okay, So then you do submit

2259
03:08:43,479 --> 03:08:46,399
with docility? Then you do have
Then you do submit, you recognize Francis,

2260
03:08:46,440 --> 03:08:52,520
and you do submit with facility to
his ordinary fallible teaching. Correct.

2261
03:08:52,079 --> 03:08:54,799
Yes, Well, it didn't sound
like in this discussion you were submitting to

2262
03:08:54,879 --> 03:09:01,559
his ordinary fallible teaching. Sound like
you dismissed a lot of it. I'm

2263
03:09:01,600 --> 03:09:03,360
not happy, Yeah, I'm not
happy. I'm not happy with me.

2264
03:09:03,479 --> 03:09:13,319
Okay, So then now you do
accept Vatican two? Uh? I mean

2265
03:09:13,360 --> 03:09:16,760
I'm not really in the position to
accept or not accept. Well, if

2266
03:09:16,799 --> 03:09:20,479
you accept Francis. Now see,
if you accept Francis, you have to

2267
03:09:20,559 --> 03:09:26,479
accept his teachings with docility, so
you do have to accept. So you

2268
03:09:26,559 --> 03:09:31,120
can't play agnostic on Vatican two.
Well well wait, hold on, I

2269
03:09:31,239 --> 03:09:37,120
have to accept what's infallibly defined by
Francis. And yeah, ecumenical councils are

2270
03:09:37,520 --> 03:09:43,000
Remember this whole this whole discussion was
ecumenical councils. So that's that's an documentary.

2271
03:09:43,159 --> 03:09:46,840
Any novisort of church that I go
to where Francis is recognized tells me

2272
03:09:46,920 --> 03:09:52,200
I have to believe in Vatican two
for sure. Yeah, and I would.

2273
03:09:52,280 --> 03:10:01,879
I would certainly say that there's confusion
in the church. But uh all

2274
03:10:01,959 --> 03:10:05,399
right, well look look we're gonta
move on. We got some other people.

2275
03:10:05,440 --> 03:10:07,920
I'm not trying to be rude to
you, but do you have any

2276
03:10:07,040 --> 03:10:11,600
last I'll give you the last comments
or statements anything you want to leave us

2277
03:10:11,639 --> 03:10:16,280
with. Uh, well, I
will tell you that. Uh. You

2278
03:10:16,360 --> 03:10:20,760
know, I very much appreciate your
work, and you know you've helped lead

2279
03:10:20,840 --> 03:10:22,680
me to a possibly Christianity. I
started to listening to you when I was

2280
03:10:22,719 --> 03:10:28,040
a Protestant. Uh. And I
did explore Orthodoxy and was going to an

2281
03:10:28,079 --> 03:10:31,959
Orthodox church for a good eight months. But as as it currently stands,

2282
03:10:31,159 --> 03:10:35,239
I'm more persuaded by the Catholic position. But I will be familiarizing myself with

2283
03:10:35,399 --> 03:10:41,000
Vatican One, okay, And I
hope to come on it again and chat

2284
03:10:41,040 --> 03:10:43,239
about it. I guess if I
could just throw one mass question and you

2285
03:10:43,280 --> 03:10:52,399
don't have to give me another,
can so something that I find persuasive as

2286
03:10:52,440 --> 03:10:56,319
a providential argument? Uh? And
I just want to understand your take on

2287
03:10:56,440 --> 03:11:01,120
it is. I understand that you
know from the the position we see florence

2288
03:11:01,200 --> 03:11:07,479
As you had the highest, you
had the Emperor of Byzantium, you had

2289
03:11:07,520 --> 03:11:13,440
the Pope, you had the all
the representatives of the pentarchy sign yes.

2290
03:11:13,959 --> 03:11:18,399
No, same Markoapatist didn't sign it. Would did he represent a patriarch or

2291
03:11:18,479 --> 03:11:24,239
was he just just a bishop?
Well, I mean there's nothing, there's

2292
03:11:24,239 --> 03:11:26,520
nothing about patriarch as that makes them
magically like, oh, well, it's

2293
03:11:26,600 --> 03:11:31,799
infallible when all the patriarchs accept it. I listed various criteria which helps us

2294
03:11:31,840 --> 03:11:37,600
to identify the councils that we accept. But in theory, because the patriarchic

2295
03:11:37,719 --> 03:11:43,079
system aris as post nicia. I
mean it's theoretically possible for all the patriarchs

2296
03:11:43,120 --> 03:11:50,239
and Orthodoxy to become heretical, right, I mean I find that problematic because

2297
03:11:50,280 --> 03:11:54,920
that I mean, that's the Protestant
you, right, Only only if you're

2298
03:11:54,920 --> 03:11:58,399
a Roman Catholic would you think that's
problematic because you're attributing to the Orthodoxy your

2299
03:11:58,440 --> 03:12:03,520
Roman Catholic sub positions. So no, there's no there's no five headed infallible

2300
03:12:03,799 --> 03:12:11,079
monster that runs the Orthodox ris.
They just represent big seas. Look,

2301
03:12:11,479 --> 03:12:15,280
so a patriarchy, it represents a
big sea, a big that's a big

2302
03:12:15,360 --> 03:12:18,799
jurisdiction. And the only thing that
patriarchts have that regular bishops don't have is

2303
03:12:18,959 --> 03:12:24,719
privileges within their their canonical jurisdictions.
And for example, in the Council's Rome

2304
03:12:24,840 --> 03:12:28,840
might be considered first, and you'll
notice that Rome is considered first and then

2305
03:12:30,319 --> 03:12:35,120
the other patriarch its are movable,
right, So it's movable in the history

2306
03:12:35,159 --> 03:12:39,600
of the first thousand years of Christianity
because eventually, even though it's controversial at

2307
03:12:39,680 --> 03:12:46,680
Constantinople, one constant Theinople is considered
to be second. And that move is

2308
03:12:46,840 --> 03:12:50,319
challenged by Pope Leo, not on
the basis of anything to do with papism,

2309
03:12:50,399 --> 03:12:54,760
but Pope Leo says it's not fair
to Alexandria a law the Canons of

2310
03:12:54,879 --> 03:13:03,440
Nicea because Nicea put Alexandria second,
But eventually the Bishop of Constantinople is accepted

2311
03:13:03,079 --> 03:13:09,399
as second to Rome. So you
understand that these positions are movable canonical positions.

2312
03:13:09,920 --> 03:13:11,799
And I don't have the view.
I've never seen any argument as to

2313
03:13:11,879 --> 03:13:16,079
how, like I mean, is
it possible for all for all the patriarchists

2314
03:13:16,079 --> 03:13:20,040
to become heretical. Well, if
we didn't have the patriarchates in the year

2315
03:13:20,799 --> 03:13:24,200
three hundred, you know, all
five of them, I don't understand why

2316
03:13:24,239 --> 03:13:28,079
it would be essential to the Orthodox
Church that we have quote five patriarchis.

2317
03:13:28,280 --> 03:13:33,440
It's just a canonical development that is
fine and good and helpful for certain times.

2318
03:13:33,520 --> 03:13:37,520
But even the Patriarch Constantinople, for
example, like he only has underneath

2319
03:13:37,559 --> 03:13:43,120
them nowadays, like a few thousand
people right in his actual like local juriss

2320
03:13:43,159 --> 03:13:46,280
Like it's minuscule compared to you know, hundreds of millions of people a la

2321
03:13:46,719 --> 03:13:52,440
Russian Orthodox Church or something like that. So it's like a lot of the

2322
03:13:52,600 --> 03:13:56,520
patriarchates stuff in the Orthodox Church.
I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm

2323
03:13:56,600 --> 03:14:01,600
just saying that canonical stuff, so
noodal stuff, that's what it's about.

2324
03:14:01,760 --> 03:14:07,120
It's not a five headed it's not
like five little popes versus one big pope.

2325
03:14:09,120 --> 03:14:13,319
Right, Yeah, I understand.
I understand what you're saying. Just

2326
03:14:13,399 --> 03:14:18,280
to finish the whole picture, and
you know, challenge any of my presuppositions

2327
03:14:18,319 --> 03:14:22,200
with them this as you may.
Yeah, as the Catholic see Florence.

2328
03:14:24,159 --> 03:14:26,120
Yeah, we see the Emperor,
we see these higher bishops, And I

2329
03:14:26,239 --> 03:14:33,719
understand what you just said. Just
to finish the point signing on, you

2330
03:14:33,799 --> 03:14:39,000
understand the rest of the Orthodox world
rejected it though, yes, so,

2331
03:14:39,680 --> 03:14:43,399
And also let me give you one
exit. There's something there's something you missing

2332
03:14:43,879 --> 03:14:46,280
hold on before you go on.
You can say whatever you want, but

2333
03:14:46,360 --> 03:14:48,760
before you go on, there's an
important mistake you're making, which is you

2334
03:14:48,840 --> 03:14:52,000
took issue with, for example,
laity having anything to do with this in

2335
03:14:52,120 --> 03:14:56,040
terms of reception. So when I
said the rest of the Orthodox world,

2336
03:14:56,040 --> 03:14:58,040
I meant the rest of the Orthodox
world's bishops and lady. So the Orthodox

2337
03:14:58,120 --> 03:15:01,520
Church is a big difference. But
between us and you, which is that

2338
03:15:01,760 --> 03:15:07,680
lady have a very important role in
also receiving and accepting doctrines and dogmas from

2339
03:15:07,760 --> 03:15:11,399
synods, councils, or bishops or
patriarchs. And this is very different because

2340
03:15:11,440 --> 03:15:13,719
you think, well, that doesn't
make any sense because you know what,

2341
03:15:13,959 --> 03:15:16,120
lady don't know anything. They shouldn't. No, they have an absolutely important

2342
03:15:16,200 --> 03:15:20,920
role. And we need only look
to the examples that you also have to

2343
03:15:22,000 --> 03:15:26,680
accept in your own church of the
Seventh Ecumenical Council and the icons. So

2344
03:15:26,799 --> 03:15:31,000
you may not be aware of this, but in the Seventh Ecumenical Council there

2345
03:15:31,079 --> 03:15:39,079
were many many patriarchs. There are
several patriarchs and bishops who believed in iconoclasm,

2346
03:15:39,639 --> 03:15:43,159
and there were other handfuls that did
not believe in iconoclasm. They were

2347
03:15:43,280 --> 03:15:52,760
iconoduals. So the but the locus
of the church's defense of iconodualism was not

2348
03:15:52,920 --> 03:15:56,799
from the patriarch its it's not even
necessarily from the bishop room, although initially

2349
03:15:56,879 --> 03:16:00,559
he did sign off correctly on the
right position just of image as itself.

2350
03:16:01,520 --> 03:16:05,079
In fact, it was the laity
and the monastics that saved the day in

2351
03:16:05,200 --> 03:16:11,760
the iconoclasm controversy. So there's actually
key examples of where corrupt bishops in iconoclasm,

2352
03:16:13,399 --> 03:16:16,000
same as an arianism too, by
the way, where corrupt bishops try

2353
03:16:16,040 --> 03:16:20,200
to force the church to accept iconoclasm. And it was the lady that played

2354
03:16:20,200 --> 03:16:22,399
a very key role with the monastics
in rejecting that. So that's an example

2355
03:16:22,440 --> 03:16:26,399
that's applicable to your church because that's
first thousand years. You think that's Roman

2356
03:16:26,479 --> 03:16:31,799
Catholic, then you have the same
thing going on in the iconic clasm controversy

2357
03:16:31,840 --> 03:16:41,600
that you're faulting me for pointing out
in Florence. Right, okay, so

2358
03:16:43,159 --> 03:16:45,959
thank you for that, really,
I do appreciate that. Now taking all

2359
03:16:45,959 --> 03:16:52,040
ads are so again just to finish
the point. Yeah, so what we're

2360
03:16:52,079 --> 03:16:56,000
taking issue with, like you see
in many ecumenical councils you always have the

2361
03:16:56,120 --> 03:17:01,319
sanking bishops and other orgy. You
always have a small remnant. And this

2362
03:17:01,520 --> 03:17:05,799
is me quoting I believe his name, Bishop Timothy Ware. He himself said,

2363
03:17:05,799 --> 03:17:15,600
Florence seemingly has all the marks of
an ecumenical council And you had cool

2364
03:17:15,639 --> 03:17:18,799
Can I can I quote James Martin
too or you what do you think?

2365
03:17:18,959 --> 03:17:24,280
So? Like, so what do
you accept James Martin? No, No,

2366
03:17:24,399 --> 03:17:26,319
I don't accept James Martin. Okay, so a bad argument in Timothy

2367
03:17:26,360 --> 03:17:31,239
ware, what does that mean?
Well, it's just a bishop, so

2368
03:17:31,440 --> 03:17:33,959
that whatever that means to anybody,
I don't know what it means to your

2369
03:17:33,040 --> 03:17:37,639
orthodox position. That's what I'm still
confused on. It's oh, come on,

2370
03:17:37,879 --> 03:17:41,040
you you know that because a bishop
says something bad, that's not a

2371
03:17:41,079 --> 03:17:45,040
good argument against. I can I
give find a thousand Rumman Cathol bishops saying

2372
03:17:45,120 --> 03:17:48,680
ridiculous things every day? So what
is that that doesn't that doesn't do anything?

2373
03:17:50,559 --> 03:17:52,399
That's a two Do you want a
two quote way? Is you know

2374
03:17:52,479 --> 03:17:56,680
a two quote way? Is uh? Two quote way like rules for be

2375
03:17:56,879 --> 03:18:01,399
not for me? Yeah? Okay, yeah, yeah, I hear what

2376
03:18:01,440 --> 03:18:05,319
you're saying. I don't want to
get into the weeds of another little argument.

2377
03:18:05,319 --> 03:18:09,000
I just want to try to get
all this out. So the providential

2378
03:18:09,079 --> 03:18:13,159
argument I'm coming to is, uh, what you end up happened have happening

2379
03:18:13,319 --> 03:18:22,159
is, yes, you had a
small minority dissenter dissenting from Florence, which

2380
03:18:22,239 --> 03:18:26,040
we would find, you know,
arbitrary, and I know you wouldn't know.

2381
03:18:26,680 --> 03:18:31,920
Again, you're misunderstanding. So you
understand that there's it's not a minority.

2382
03:18:31,159 --> 03:18:35,000
It's just that's not that's false.
You understand that the rest of the

2383
03:18:35,079 --> 03:18:37,600
Orthodox world is the majority, and
they rejected this. So it's a minority

2384
03:18:37,760 --> 03:18:41,719
that's at Florence. So you're totally
wrong. Sure, okay, sure,

2385
03:18:41,920 --> 03:18:46,559
majority in the wider Orthodox world.
Minority as far as the Orthodox representatives.

2386
03:18:46,600 --> 03:18:50,520
That's true, that's correct. Okay, Yes, we're in agreement. We're

2387
03:18:50,559 --> 03:18:56,159
in a total agreement there. Okay. So uh and you have yeah,

2388
03:18:56,280 --> 03:19:01,280
okay, So anyways, uh,
and they were I think in a official

2389
03:19:01,440 --> 03:19:07,520
union for what a generation fifty seventy
years or something like that before the Muslims

2390
03:19:07,600 --> 03:19:11,639
came in killed? Correct, right, So Busantiem fell when it was UNI

2391
03:19:11,760 --> 03:19:18,760
it correct, Yes, it fell. I's altering then when the people write,

2392
03:19:18,239 --> 03:19:22,040
okay, you would see that as
a punishment for being union. Well,

2393
03:19:22,120 --> 03:19:26,959
I mean, I don't make dumb
providential arguments because they're they're stupid.

2394
03:19:26,959 --> 03:19:31,040
They don't prove anything. Well,
come on, come on, now,

2395
03:19:31,520 --> 03:19:37,200
Providence is totally biblical. No,
the Providence is biblical. But reading into

2396
03:19:37,319 --> 03:19:41,639
providence punishments and judgments. Have you
read City of God? You understand Augustine

2397
03:19:41,760 --> 03:19:45,959
makes fun of this whole idea because
the Roman Pagans were arguing that Rome fell

2398
03:19:46,000 --> 03:19:50,040
because they accepted Christianity, and Augustine
says that this is a dumb argument.

2399
03:19:50,159 --> 03:19:52,639
So I'm just simply saying that I
agree with Augustin, this is a dumb

2400
03:19:52,760 --> 03:19:58,159
argument. Hey, Augustine also is
propilioquay. So what does that have to

2401
03:19:58,200 --> 03:20:01,799
do with the point that I just
made about his argument against providential quote unquote

2402
03:20:01,840 --> 03:20:05,520
arguments that Rome fell because of Christianity. You understand that is it can be

2403
03:20:05,559 --> 03:20:07,680
interpreted in any different way, right, I mean you could argue that,

2404
03:20:07,559 --> 03:20:11,319
I mean, why can't I argue
then that it fell because it was union?

2405
03:20:11,440 --> 03:20:13,719
You see how arbitrary this is?
Is silly? I mean highest,

2406
03:20:13,920 --> 03:20:18,719
So let me argue that highest the
Ninth was highest. The Ninth was imprisoned

2407
03:20:18,760 --> 03:20:22,680
in the he was imprisoned in the
Vatican. Therefore, therefore that was a

2408
03:20:22,760 --> 03:20:26,520
punishment providentially and Vatican one is false. Do you see how silly these arguments

2409
03:20:26,520 --> 03:20:31,319
are? That is such a that's
Napoleon right when the Bonaparte put them off.

2410
03:20:31,719 --> 03:20:39,360
Well, the Masons took over in
Italy and the pote was imprisoned in

2411
03:20:39,399 --> 03:20:43,079
the Vatican. So is that a
punishment that disproves Roman Catholicism of Vatican one.

2412
03:20:43,600 --> 03:20:48,239
Do you see how arbitrary these interpretations
of history can be. I think

2413
03:20:48,280 --> 03:20:52,479
the difference is a scale. Would
this, dude, you understand how you

2414
03:20:52,559 --> 03:20:56,639
understand how philosophically absurd that is?
So now it's arbitrarily a quote scale?

2415
03:20:56,040 --> 03:21:03,879
Where do you get the scale from? Where? Hold on? Where do

2416
03:21:03,959 --> 03:21:07,799
I get this scale from? You
had you had the majority of the lady

2417
03:21:07,879 --> 03:21:13,680
and the lower clergy reject Florence,
and they rejected the council, and what

2418
03:21:13,799 --> 03:21:20,520
you had happened was every single patriarchate
fell under domination of Muslim rules. So

2419
03:21:20,680 --> 03:21:26,120
why can't I argue that Florence,
that Florence fell because it was Union Apostolic

2420
03:21:26,799 --> 03:21:33,159
originated. This is a here's here's
here's my kay, Here's why k because

2421
03:21:33,600 --> 03:21:37,399
the Orthodox world has continued to be
Orthodox, not Uniate, and they still

2422
03:21:37,440 --> 03:21:43,440
are under this burden. Yeah.
But and Pope Benedict says that that proof.

2423
03:21:43,559 --> 03:21:46,959
They says that the Orthodox had maintained
the faith for the last thousand years,

2424
03:21:48,000 --> 03:21:52,040
okay, which is which is totally
kosher as far as Catholic theology.

2425
03:21:52,120 --> 03:21:56,600
Because no, that means that we
don't need that means that being under the

2426
03:21:56,239 --> 03:22:01,159
That means that being under the papacy
doesn't improve excuse me. That means that

2427
03:22:01,239 --> 03:22:03,399
being out of the papacy doesn't give
us the knowledge of the true faith.

2428
03:22:03,440 --> 03:22:05,600
And it also means that being under
Muslims doesn't mean that we lose the true

2429
03:22:05,600 --> 03:22:09,719
faith. No, no, no, because it's a schismatic is different from

2430
03:22:09,719 --> 03:22:13,120
a heretic. And I know you
you understand this is schismatic. It could

2431
03:22:13,120 --> 03:22:18,319
be Orthodox and all their teaching,
but as schismatic is someone that doesn't that

2432
03:22:18,399 --> 03:22:22,639
doesn't And by the way, that's
a mistake because in the teachings of the

2433
03:22:22,680 --> 03:22:24,520
Lee of the thirteenth and Pious the
twelfth, and in your own canon law,

2434
03:22:26,239 --> 03:22:30,120
a schismatic is outside the body of
Christ. So it doesn't matter whether

2435
03:22:30,239 --> 03:22:31,840
I know there's a difference between a
schismatic and heretic, but both are equally

2436
03:22:31,879 --> 03:22:37,639
outside the church, so that that
doesn't apply. That doesn't I mean that's

2437
03:22:37,280 --> 03:22:43,360
I don't know, it doesn't because
a schismatic and a heretic are equally outside

2438
03:22:43,360 --> 03:22:48,040
of the church, so the argument
doesn't hold. Well, I understand that,

2439
03:22:48,159 --> 03:22:50,719
But you can still be Orthodox in
your teaching as a schismatic because the

2440
03:22:50,799 --> 03:22:56,120
thing that makes someone as schismatic as
opposed to well, then they are Orthodox

2441
03:22:56,159 --> 03:23:03,280
their theology, but they reject the
authority structure that we see as Christ establishing

2442
03:23:03,520 --> 03:23:07,479
with the Catholic Church. Right,
and then so what France or what Benedict

2443
03:23:07,520 --> 03:23:13,000
says is that the Orthodox had maintained
the faith and therefore the faith doesn't need

2444
03:23:13,000 --> 03:23:20,280
the papacy to be maintained. Okay, right, but there's still so none

2445
03:23:20,319 --> 03:23:22,159
of this proves Catholicism as the point. These are bad arguments, is the

2446
03:23:22,200 --> 03:23:28,120
point, right? Yeah, well, yeah, I think I think I

2447
03:23:28,200 --> 03:23:33,319
got the full point out there.
But why why Okay, but hold on,

2448
03:23:33,399 --> 03:23:37,639
But if we're going to use these
providential arguments, you understand that it's

2449
03:23:37,719 --> 03:23:41,159
arbitrary if when I point out that
Byzantium fell when it was uni eate,

2450
03:23:43,559 --> 03:23:48,120
well I don't think that's what I
would again respond to you with, is

2451
03:23:48,280 --> 03:23:54,040
if it had to do with it
being uniate, then why is why are

2452
03:23:54,120 --> 03:23:58,040
those places that fell way back when
on the and I forgot to mention this

2453
03:23:58,120 --> 03:24:01,280
piece and I know isproba bug you, But on the day of Pentecosta,

2454
03:24:01,319 --> 03:24:05,319
on the feast state of the Holy
Spirit, after a council that was designed

2455
03:24:05,799 --> 03:24:11,159
the Philioque among other things. You
know, these places have continued to be

2456
03:24:11,239 --> 03:24:16,040
under Muslim rule even though their rulers
are as you would say, Orthodox and

2457
03:24:16,120 --> 03:24:18,600
not Uniate. So obviously, if
this was okay, so by this argument,

2458
03:24:18,920 --> 03:24:24,120
by this argument, all of the
Western European nations which are now falling

2459
03:24:24,239 --> 03:24:28,159
to Muslim dominance, that also now
disproves the papacy. Because when I go

2460
03:24:28,200 --> 03:24:33,280
to Europe, it's Muslims everywhere.
So now you see how silly these arguments.

2461
03:24:33,280 --> 03:24:37,319
These are terrible arguments. Have you
been to Europe? I think,

2462
03:24:37,440 --> 03:24:43,559
have you been to Europe? Yes, when I've seen the shops in Berlin,

2463
03:24:43,639 --> 03:24:45,440
I know what you're talking about.
It, I'm talking to you right,

2464
03:24:45,520 --> 03:24:48,920
and it's everywhere. It's not just
right. So there's what gigantic hordes

2465
03:24:48,959 --> 03:24:52,600
of Muslims in Italy too. I
was just in Italy three months ago.

2466
03:24:52,639 --> 03:24:56,319
Okay, so uh so there we
go. That's so, so there we

2467
03:24:56,440 --> 03:24:58,760
go. God has punished and cursed
the Roman Catholic Church because the Muslims are

2468
03:24:58,799 --> 03:25:01,920
winning now. And see how about
these arguments are I would say, if

2469
03:25:01,920 --> 03:25:05,719
that's where the nuance ended, for
sure, I would see how that'sppen.

2470
03:25:05,840 --> 03:25:09,040
Well, if we got to go
into nuance that really we can't really get

2471
03:25:09,120 --> 03:25:13,440
into open immigration on this platform,
though I wouldn't want to. Well,

2472
03:25:13,479 --> 03:25:16,959
you said scale, and so what's
the scale of the rise of Islam in

2473
03:25:18,040 --> 03:25:24,479
Europe versus Catholicism? So now scale
doesn't apply. I mean, okay,

2474
03:25:24,719 --> 03:25:28,799
Well, the heale you're talking about
has got an incredibly small, it's incredibly

2475
03:25:28,840 --> 03:25:33,319
small timeframe. Oh so now it's
scale of time, not scaled numbers.

2476
03:25:35,719 --> 03:25:39,959
It's correct. I mean, the
more I'm the more witnesses you have attesting

2477
03:25:39,040 --> 03:25:41,719
to a particular reality, the more
weight and gravity is given. So it

2478
03:25:41,840 --> 03:25:46,719
just gets more and more qualified and
more and more arbitrary. Right because because

2479
03:25:46,760 --> 03:25:48,840
when when you're trying to flesh out
why we should believe that this is the

2480
03:25:48,920 --> 03:25:54,440
proper way to interpret the providential punishment, you understand that the more I drilled

2481
03:25:54,479 --> 03:25:56,399
into it, it got more and
more nuanced, qualified, and arbitrary.

2482
03:25:56,719 --> 03:26:01,000
And so now it's just oh well, it's only uh, the scale within

2483
03:26:01,079 --> 03:26:05,120
this time frame of the quantity of
this kind of this many converts with and

2484
03:26:05,200 --> 03:26:07,559
so it's it's just arbitrary. How
is this argument on arbitrary? I don't,

2485
03:26:07,559 --> 03:26:11,799
I don't, I don't know what
the funal issue is with nuance.

2486
03:26:11,920 --> 03:26:15,840
I mean nuances how you. I
don't have a problem with the word nuance.

2487
03:26:15,920 --> 03:26:20,559
It's the nuance of it becoming now
a small time frame and certain numbers,

2488
03:26:24,799 --> 03:26:28,520
right. I mean what I'm saying
to you is I find those things

2489
03:26:28,600 --> 03:26:33,200
peruisive. Uh well yeah, but
I mean people find bad arguments persuasive all

2490
03:26:33,200 --> 03:26:37,319
the time. So yeah, that's
possible. That's just a joke. That's

2491
03:26:37,360 --> 03:26:43,479
just a joke, man, that's
don't I'm too much of a super fan,

2492
03:26:45,200 --> 03:26:50,319
so never happened over here. But
well, yeah, hey listen,

2493
03:26:50,440 --> 03:26:54,239
I I just think this was a
great cover. It was a great conversation.

2494
03:26:54,440 --> 03:26:58,000
I appreciate you keeping it very civil
and cool. Uh you get a

2495
03:26:58,040 --> 03:27:01,159
great a on your DEMI. It
was a lot of fun. By the

2496
03:27:01,200 --> 03:27:03,280
way, is that Bono? Like
I say, the profile image, is

2497
03:27:03,319 --> 03:27:09,440
that Bono? It looks like Bono? That's just uh, that's just me,

2498
03:27:09,639 --> 03:27:15,639
man, that's me. Okay,
just had some rose colored shit five

2499
03:27:15,719 --> 03:27:18,200
years ago. Put them on.
Okay, that's the story. Not so

2500
03:27:18,319 --> 03:27:22,280
much. Well, thanks Kevin here. You're welcome to come on any time.

2501
03:27:22,399 --> 03:27:26,159
Bring any more questions objections that you
have. I would say, specifically

2502
03:27:26,840 --> 03:27:28,879
on Florence. There's a good book
by Ostro mov O s t r U

2503
03:27:30,120 --> 03:27:33,120
m o V. That's a really
good book to read. Okay, well,

2504
03:27:33,159 --> 03:27:35,680
thank you for uh oh hey,
one last question, are you still

2505
03:27:35,719 --> 03:27:43,840
running your philosophy course? Yeah,
it's uh it's available through uh Richard Grove's

2506
03:27:43,159 --> 03:27:48,360
autonomy Agora marketplace. So yeah,
it's still available. Okay, this is

2507
03:27:48,440 --> 03:27:52,520
a super random suggestion. Uh,
and I don't I'm not. I don't

2508
03:27:52,559 --> 03:27:56,600
work with these people at all.
Highly recommend checking out school dot com s

2509
03:27:56,680 --> 03:28:01,280
k o O L dot com.
Of course on they're doing a competition right

2510
03:28:01,360 --> 03:28:05,360
now. Mm hmm. I think
you'd be really interested in as someone who's

2511
03:28:05,399 --> 03:28:11,079
selling a compelling information product. Okay, so I would just recommend check it

2512
03:28:11,159 --> 03:28:16,280
out your program propagated. All right, y'all check that out. Thank you,

2513
03:28:16,360 --> 03:28:20,479
Kevin, appreciate that. Yeah,
that's a great conversation there, really

2514
03:28:20,719 --> 03:28:26,639
good civil. It's always great to
have a you know, a heated but

2515
03:28:26,879 --> 03:28:30,280
civil conversation with romancallics. I appreciate
that. So he gets a he gets

2516
03:28:30,280 --> 03:28:35,000
an A plus on U interaction there. He didn't and both of us kept

2517
03:28:35,040 --> 03:28:39,399
it civil. I think. So
it was heated but fun. Now this

2518
03:28:39,479 --> 03:28:43,200
guy's been sitting here waiting, jong
Wa. What's up? Jong Wa?

2519
03:28:43,319 --> 03:28:45,159
You've been waiting a long time,
So I guess I'll go to you.

2520
03:28:54,440 --> 03:28:58,879
What's up? Y'all? Thank you
for the super chats. Non go ahead?

2521
03:29:03,319 --> 03:29:05,239
Are you there? Yeah, I'm
there. What's up? Man?

2522
03:29:05,280 --> 03:29:11,639
What's on your mind? Yeah?
Well, pulling, mister, the abument

2523
03:29:11,120 --> 03:29:18,079
leading to the to the Trinity lead
into the the god of the Christian Orthodox.

2524
03:29:18,200 --> 03:29:22,239
Yeah. So I got a bunch
of videos where I talked about how

2525
03:29:22,319 --> 03:29:26,040
I'm just going to re retitle those
videos. How does tag lead to trinity?

2526
03:29:26,079 --> 03:29:28,680
Because that would be a lot easier
because this question gets asked me every

2527
03:29:28,760 --> 03:29:39,079
day. Jose, what's up?
Jose? Greetings from Germany. Uh net

2528
03:29:39,159 --> 03:29:45,120
infection. If somebody believes in Asian
philosophy, have you ever debated? We

2529
03:29:45,200 --> 03:29:48,000
have one Buddhist guy we did a
debate with on a live stream maybe two

2530
03:29:48,079 --> 03:29:54,040
years ago. You can find that. But those positions will typically debate.

2531
03:29:54,159 --> 03:29:56,360
People are always like, will you
going to debate a Hindu? When you

2532
03:29:56,440 --> 03:30:03,040
go to debate a Buddhist, they
don't typically debate because they're not missionary faiths.

2533
03:30:03,120 --> 03:30:07,639
Typically sometimes maybe Hindu's well, they're
a little bit missionary. But Jews

2534
03:30:07,680 --> 03:30:11,639
also don't typically gauge in debates that
much. I've had one or two Jews

2535
03:30:11,719 --> 03:30:16,639
ever come on discord to debate,
so for whatever reason that they typically don't

2536
03:30:16,680 --> 03:30:18,760
think. We had one Jewish guy
maybe two months ago, a Poplin so

2537
03:30:20,239 --> 03:30:26,479
also not a missionary based faith.
I've been debating them, and it's hard

2538
03:30:26,239 --> 03:30:31,399
to debate them because they say shamanism
is bad because you believe in Jesus.

2539
03:30:31,600 --> 03:30:35,559
Well, I mean, I think
we can have a better critiques than that.

2540
03:30:35,760 --> 03:30:39,639
For example, most of those Far
Eastern religions fall into some form of

2541
03:30:39,719 --> 03:30:43,959
monism or maya, and those are
really positions that are destructive to the possibility

2542
03:30:45,000 --> 03:30:48,040
of knowledge. So if you just
just critique it by you know, if

2543
03:30:48,079 --> 03:30:52,799
you deny basic logic, which most
Far Eastern positions do, then you're not

2544
03:30:52,920 --> 03:30:58,360
really You're not really be able to
say anything. Keishore and mad Ri ten

2545
03:30:58,399 --> 03:31:01,040
dollars. How's it going on over
content understand or the archeology? Will you

2546
03:31:01,159 --> 03:31:03,840
unblock me on Instagram? I don't
know. I mean, I don't know

2547
03:31:03,879 --> 03:31:07,399
who you are, and typically when
I block you on Instagram, I have

2548
03:31:07,479 --> 03:31:13,280
good reason to do it. So
I mean, is that your handle on

2549
03:31:13,399 --> 03:31:16,719
Instagram, so I don't even know. I guess I can look and see

2550
03:31:16,959 --> 03:31:20,360
and maybe since you sent a super
chat Lilac Flower days three dollars, I

2551
03:31:20,399 --> 03:31:22,399
found your videos a few days ago. I'm working through them. I'm not

2552
03:31:22,600 --> 03:31:24,680
Orthodox, I'm looking forward to learning
more. Well, thank you, Lylac,

2553
03:31:24,680 --> 03:31:31,760
appreciate that helpe you hope you find
uh the information atifying Jeff Koms three

2554
03:31:31,799 --> 03:31:37,239
dollars. What was the difference between
Protestant teaching of sanctification and Theosis? Are

2555
03:31:37,280 --> 03:31:41,159
they saying the same thing? No, I think it's a big difference between

2556
03:31:41,200 --> 03:31:45,920
I mean, we both might have
the same ideas that we want to morally

2557
03:31:46,079 --> 03:31:50,000
be better and we want to acquire
virtue, but we're saying very different things.

2558
03:31:50,079 --> 03:31:52,559
By how that's had right as you
saw, Redeem Zoomer at the beginning

2559
03:31:52,559 --> 03:31:56,200
of this video said that it's created
grace. Well, that's fundamentally absurd to

2560
03:31:56,239 --> 03:32:01,120
an Orthodox person. So I think
it's Saint Seraphim says. SARAHV says that

2561
03:32:01,200 --> 03:32:05,719
the whole over the Orthodox life is
the acquiring of the Holy Spirit, and

2562
03:32:05,799 --> 03:32:09,920
that means uncreated grace. That's what
aosis means. So it's not a mere

2563
03:32:09,079 --> 03:32:13,959
sort of Protestant moralism where we're just
trying to like engage some kind of self

2564
03:32:15,000 --> 03:32:20,479
help self betterment program. It's actually
acquiring the virtues and the life of God.

2565
03:32:20,799 --> 03:32:24,639
Jose, what's up are you there? Hey? Do you have a

2566
03:32:24,680 --> 03:32:28,639
disagreement or a argument? No,
I just wanted to ask when we could

2567
03:32:28,680 --> 03:32:33,559
find you on TikTok again. Yeah, somebody said in the chat you would

2568
03:32:33,559 --> 03:32:37,360
get a lot more interactions for this
if you did TikTok. That's true.

2569
03:32:37,719 --> 03:32:41,440
However, Yeah, it is so
so low tier dude, Like it's so

2570
03:32:41,639 --> 03:32:45,399
hard to I mean, people don't
even understand if you really want to test

2571
03:32:45,440 --> 03:32:48,719
your patience. I mean, I'm
serious, man, It's it's so hard.

2572
03:32:50,079 --> 03:32:52,600
Actually, maybe I should do it
because it's like training and virtue or

2573
03:32:52,639 --> 03:33:00,319
whatever, Like to test your patience
on TikTok is a big challenge. So

2574
03:33:00,639 --> 03:33:03,360
it's it's like double XP weekend on
virtue training. I mean, you just

2575
03:33:03,719 --> 03:33:07,520
you don't understand until you do it. People hear me saying this. I

2576
03:33:07,600 --> 03:33:13,600
mean it's just like people screaming and
just it's crazy. It's it's like it's

2577
03:33:13,600 --> 03:33:16,200
a madhouse, dude. So it's
hard for me to to put up with

2578
03:33:16,319 --> 03:33:18,840
it. But it does get a
lot of views, and it does get

2579
03:33:18,840 --> 03:33:22,120
a lot of people love that.
It's almost more like blood sports, not

2580
03:33:22,200 --> 03:33:26,319
really a debate. So I don't
know, do you have a question?

2581
03:33:26,280 --> 03:33:30,959
I mean you get the occasional,
you know, high tier. Yeah,

2582
03:33:31,000 --> 03:33:33,360
there have been if like that.
There's a Calvinist guy that has really good

2583
03:33:33,440 --> 03:33:37,399
questions about Bonson. He has Bonson
as his profile and he had a lot

2584
03:33:37,399 --> 03:33:41,879
of good Christology questions. And you
get you get a lot of Muslims.

2585
03:33:41,079 --> 03:33:45,799
If you want to really tap into
the Muslim sphere, you definitely should do

2586
03:33:46,840 --> 03:33:50,920
uh TikTok. You get more upstairs. And then last thing, could you

2587
03:33:50,040 --> 03:33:54,559
do just a quick off the cuff, you know, one or two line

2588
03:33:54,639 --> 03:34:01,959
reputation to these three different philosophy real
quick? I mean I can try,

2589
03:34:01,040 --> 03:34:05,719
but I don't know if it's sufficient
to be just, you know, just

2590
03:34:05,799 --> 03:34:11,280
straight off the bad. Evolution.
Yeah, I typically critique evolution from a

2591
03:34:11,399 --> 03:34:16,879
philosophical perspective. Like I'm not trained
in biology or you know, geology,

2592
03:34:16,959 --> 03:34:20,440
so I don't I don't usually go
into that domain. I'll talk about some

2593
03:34:20,520 --> 03:34:24,719
of those arguments, but typically when
I refute philosophy, it's from evolutions from

2594
03:34:24,719 --> 03:34:30,479
a philosophical perspective of that there's not
really sufficient evidence or any way to prove

2595
03:34:30,680 --> 03:34:35,680
that everything came from one thing,
or that there is a transmutation of species.

2596
03:34:35,360 --> 03:34:41,440
Usually the arguments are, well,
but you know there was adaptation in

2597
03:34:41,559 --> 03:34:46,680
this one instance, so therefore,
over billions of years, there would be

2598
03:34:46,040 --> 03:34:48,920
mutation in a totally different species.
Yeah, but that's the thing that's in

2599
03:34:50,079 --> 03:34:52,680
question, right, So that's a
huge leap that I don't see is justified.

2600
03:34:54,200 --> 03:34:56,799
I mean, there's there's other approaches
that you could do to evolution.

2601
03:34:56,840 --> 03:35:01,799
I mean, it just depends on
how how how far they're taking their evolutionary

2602
03:35:01,879 --> 03:35:05,520
theory. Right. Some people might
think evolution means everything is in an evolutionary

2603
03:35:05,600 --> 03:35:09,399
flux. Well, if everything is
an evolutionary flux, then the proposition that

2604
03:35:09,520 --> 03:35:13,319
everything is an evolutionary flux is also
an evolutionary flex and therefore self reputing.

2605
03:35:13,079 --> 03:35:18,719
So it just depends on what type
of person we're talking to. Modism,

2606
03:35:20,559 --> 03:35:24,000
Well, if everything is one,
then I could never know that everything is

2607
03:35:24,079 --> 03:35:28,600
one, because my coming to know
everything is one is particular indiscreete and therefore

2608
03:35:28,719 --> 03:35:35,239
not and is therefore one, So
it's illusory, gotcha? And then last

2609
03:35:35,280 --> 03:35:41,399
one, non dualism. Well,
non dualism is a form of monism.

2610
03:35:41,479 --> 03:35:45,200
So what does that mean? Never
mind? Well, I mean it depends

2611
03:35:45,239 --> 03:35:46,520
on what you mean by non dualism. I mean there might be a non

2612
03:35:46,639 --> 03:35:50,120
dualist view of epistemology, a non
dualist view of the soul. I mean,

2613
03:35:50,360 --> 03:35:54,920
what do you mean by a non
dualist view of metaphysics? Just be

2614
03:35:54,040 --> 03:35:58,239
more precise, what do you mean? Yeah, like metaphysics typically speaking about

2615
03:35:58,399 --> 03:36:03,399
like you know, Well, let's
just moan it upright, Thanks, Jack,

2616
03:36:03,399 --> 03:36:11,399
appreciate it. Yeah, great questions. I think I want to remind

2617
03:36:11,399 --> 03:36:13,239
you guys too that we do have
a show sponsor. We're not quitting yet.

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The link is in the show description
and then let's see we got l

2656
03:39:05,280 --> 03:39:07,639
e since five dollars, Thank you, Elli appreciate that all of our five

2657
03:39:07,680 --> 03:39:11,680
dollars. I don't have Twitter.
So I'm going to ask you here,

2658
03:39:13,120 --> 03:39:22,360
can we trace the idea of post
abosolic ideas of ecumenical councils being infallible?

2659
03:39:24,120 --> 03:39:28,520
Athanasious speaks of Nicea as the Holy
Spirit speaking, So I mean that would

2660
03:39:28,600 --> 03:39:33,520
kind of be the equivalent of that. Uh yeah, the way Athanasia speaks

2661
03:39:33,520 --> 03:39:39,959
of Nicia. What about a council
condemning one person? Uh Theodoric cirrus.

2662
03:39:39,200 --> 03:39:43,479
Yeah, there's a I mean,
there's a lot to say about ecumenical councils

2663
03:39:43,959 --> 03:39:48,440
leaving certain questions open. For example, Calcedon is an ecmmenical council, but

2664
03:39:48,559 --> 03:39:54,760
Calcidon didn't satisfy and settle all the
crystological disputes and debates that were going at

2665
03:39:54,799 --> 03:39:58,600
that time. And that's precisely why
the Fifth Council happens, and so the

2666
03:39:58,639 --> 03:40:07,000
Fifth Council happens to distinguish to actually
be more clear about what Calciton left unclear.

2667
03:40:07,559 --> 03:40:11,319
So that doesn't mean that ecumenical councils
are wrong. It just means that

2668
03:40:11,799 --> 03:40:16,200
there's going to be questions that,
by the nature of them being at one

2669
03:40:16,280 --> 03:40:20,639
space at one point in time,
that they don't answer everything. And if

2670
03:40:20,680 --> 03:40:22,520
you read any of the literature of
the academic literature on the Fifth Council,

2671
03:40:24,159 --> 03:40:28,079
and particularly you know the rise of
in hypostat in hypostaton and how it's used

2672
03:40:28,159 --> 03:40:33,959
by Leontius of Jerusalem and how it's
accepted of the Fifth Council, et cetera,

2673
03:40:33,280 --> 03:40:39,520
then we begin to see that this
is the next layer of clarification that

2674
03:40:39,639 --> 03:40:45,120
happens Postcalcidon. So I think that
helps to explain what's going on with Theodora

2675
03:40:46,879 --> 03:40:50,239
and the idea of a work being
condemned than people individual people being excused,

2676
03:40:50,319 --> 03:40:56,959
and so forth ender five dollars cyber
polygon happening today. I saw people talking

2677
03:40:58,000 --> 03:41:03,079
about internet being out, but no
internet outage or cell phone outage has affected

2678
03:41:03,159 --> 03:41:07,840
me today, So maybe they're running
some kind of test test run for something

2679
03:41:09,360 --> 03:41:11,879
I haven't looked at the news today, so I don't even know what's happening

2680
03:41:11,920 --> 03:41:22,000
today. I saw Lord Boldemort talking
about the FBI warnings of whatever about Chinese

2681
03:41:22,040 --> 03:41:26,120
hacking or something, but I haven't
even seen the news. So literally today

2682
03:41:26,159 --> 03:41:28,559
all have done is think about what
we're talking about here. I'll have to

2683
03:41:28,600 --> 03:41:31,000
look and see Banjo. I wouldn't
be surprised though, I mean, we

2684
03:41:31,079 --> 03:41:35,520
know some kind of crazy events are
coming. We've been talking about this for

2685
03:41:35,959 --> 03:41:39,879
the last six months, right of
what crazy events are coming in twenty twenty

2686
03:41:39,879 --> 03:41:43,920
four, we've been speculating. We've
listed the various possibilities, you know,

2687
03:41:43,200 --> 03:41:52,360
cyber pandemic, another koof economic collapse, riots, you know, we talked

2688
03:41:52,399 --> 03:41:54,040
about all kinds of different possibilities,
and we don't know. I don't know

2689
03:41:54,079 --> 03:41:56,559
what's going to Maybe they'll do like
two or three of these, right,

2690
03:41:56,600 --> 03:42:03,799
who knows? Bajo Fields Sendah,
what's the argument about, Luke, whoever's

2691
03:42:03,840 --> 03:42:07,879
not against you is for you?
Yeah, he also says that that guy

2692
03:42:07,000 --> 03:42:11,680
will also whoever's not against us will
also be one of us. So the

2693
03:42:11,760 --> 03:42:16,000
assumption is that that person would not
continue to just operate. You know,

2694
03:42:18,239 --> 03:42:22,799
what's the word, I'm lone wolf
he's not going to continue to work lone

2695
03:42:22,840 --> 03:42:26,319
Wolf because read the Book of Acts. You'll notice that Paul, trying to

2696
03:42:26,360 --> 03:42:33,479
get this to focus again goes out
of focus. Thank you. When Paul

2697
03:42:33,559 --> 03:42:35,799
goes out and he finds people that
are disciples of John or people who are

2698
03:42:35,879 --> 03:42:41,280
less instructed, he doesn't immediately call
them heretics. He treats them as brethren

2699
03:42:41,319 --> 03:42:43,399
and then invites them to become under
the episcopade. I think this is Acts

2700
03:42:43,559 --> 03:42:48,399
nine and like Acts eighteen somewhere in
there. So go look at those examples,

2701
03:42:48,440 --> 03:42:52,079
and there's really good notes in the
Orthodox Study Bible when it comes to

2702
03:42:52,239 --> 03:43:00,959
those chapters. So Ethan five dollars. Are you familiar with the medi old

2703
03:43:01,000 --> 03:43:05,040
French mystic Marguerite Poorite? I'm not. What do you think about her?

2704
03:43:05,159 --> 03:43:11,479
No idea. I can't imagine though, that as Orthodox we have much of

2705
03:43:11,520 --> 03:43:18,000
an interest in medieval French mystic women. Father Deacon Patrick, ten dollars,

2706
03:43:18,159 --> 03:43:26,159
could a two minute dialogue with Boomer
Garcia happen in nom uh? Well,

2707
03:43:26,239 --> 03:43:30,440
not for ten dollars, but thank
you for that, Father Deacon Patrick.

2708
03:43:30,559 --> 03:43:33,760
But maybe maybe le let's say we
could channel oh yeah, you know men.

2709
03:43:33,799 --> 03:43:37,280
When I was over Nom. You
know, we had a lot of

2710
03:43:37,319 --> 03:43:39,680
hard times, yo. There you
know what I was in the in the

2711
03:43:39,760 --> 03:43:41,840
tunnels of the Viet Cong had dug
your noise down there, and I phoned

2712
03:43:41,879 --> 03:43:46,079
what I thought was a couple of
you know, maybe like old McDonald's reppers

2713
03:43:46,159 --> 03:43:48,479
or whatever, and I said,
gee, how did the heck does the

2714
03:43:48,760 --> 03:43:52,399
does the via con get the McDonald's
reppers in their tunnels? And then boom

2715
03:43:52,479 --> 03:43:56,159
a bomb goes off. Next thing
I know, I'm waking up on a

2716
03:43:56,760 --> 03:44:00,479
uh on a platform, flame me
out of Nom and I'm on a vision

2717
03:44:00,600 --> 03:44:03,200
question another dimension. And then I
came back into my body and I realized

2718
03:44:03,280 --> 03:44:07,799
that it was just a dream.
When I was leaning over there waiting for

2719
03:44:07,959 --> 03:44:11,079
the himis to come over the I
don't know. I don't know where it's

2720
03:44:11,079 --> 03:44:13,239
going with that one. I don't
even know what a HEMMI is the motorcycle

2721
03:44:13,280 --> 03:44:16,520
like a helicopter? I guess,
right, is that is that a helicopter?

2722
03:44:16,559 --> 03:44:20,360
I don't know? How's that?
That's what you get for ten bucks,

2723
03:44:20,680 --> 03:44:24,120
slowest boy, three dollars. I've
heard you say, conraditional statement.

2724
03:44:26,040 --> 03:44:30,760
If Jesus rose from the dead,
that proves the religion truth? No never

2725
03:44:30,879 --> 03:44:39,200
made that statement. You must have
totally misunderstood me, because I said that

2726
03:44:39,360 --> 03:44:46,120
if Jesus rose from the dead,
then that means some type of miraculous event

2727
03:44:46,120 --> 03:44:52,120
occurred, right, And many religions
might claim a resurrection, or they might

2728
03:44:52,200 --> 03:44:56,319
claim some sort of miracle, But
the miracle only has the meaning that it

2729
03:44:56,399 --> 03:45:00,200
has in the context of the rest
of the religion, right, I mean,

2730
03:45:01,559 --> 03:45:05,479
Elisha his bones raised someone from the
dead. So raising from the dead

2731
03:45:05,520 --> 03:45:13,159
itself doesn't tell us that it has
the meaning of Messiah or right whatever.

2732
03:45:13,319 --> 03:45:15,840
Right, So it's in other words, it's part of the truths that are

2733
03:45:15,879 --> 03:45:18,959
part of the whole context. You
need the rest of the Christian religion of

2734
03:45:18,040 --> 03:45:22,879
Jesus being Thesiah, the son of
David, and what the meaning of resurrection

2735
03:45:22,159 --> 03:45:26,840
is. And that's why just resurrection
arguments don't work. So I've never argued

2736
03:45:26,840 --> 03:45:30,360
that. I mean, I've I
learned this argument was bad when I was

2737
03:45:30,440 --> 03:45:33,799
twenty, and I've never made this
argument. So you must have Your name

2738
03:45:33,879 --> 03:45:37,760
is slowest boy, so you must
have misunderstood as a slow boy. That's

2739
03:45:37,760 --> 03:45:39,200
okay, I'm not dissing you.
We can help you become a fast boy.

2740
03:45:41,280 --> 03:45:43,399
You said miracles don't prove the truth
of religion. Correct. They attest

2741
03:45:43,479 --> 03:45:46,159
to it, they don't prove it. So what proves the truth of Christianity?

2742
03:45:46,159 --> 03:45:50,079
The transional argument is the best logical
proof. But I think that miracles

2743
03:45:50,120 --> 03:45:54,280
occur and they attest to it,
they can become evidences. But evidences are

2744
03:45:54,360 --> 03:46:00,799
not strict proofs, because the resurrection
of Jesus as an evidence only has the

2745
03:46:00,959 --> 03:46:05,000
meaning that it has with the rest
of the Christian religion. That should be

2746
03:46:05,079 --> 03:46:09,000
obvious. Anonymous three dollars. You
don't believe we're in the end times,

2747
03:46:09,040 --> 03:46:11,840
you said, I said, I
don't know that. So again people just

2748
03:46:11,959 --> 03:46:16,319
coming out with accusing me of positions
that aren't my positions. Saying that I

2749
03:46:16,440 --> 03:46:18,079
don't know that if we're in the
end times is not equate to we are

2750
03:46:18,159 --> 03:46:22,959
not in the end times, So
two different things. Why do you think

2751
03:46:22,000 --> 03:46:26,079
that? Are there saints that take
a position on it? What I mean,

2752
03:46:26,120 --> 03:46:28,719
there's saints that take very's position on
different things. So if some saint

2753
03:46:28,799 --> 03:46:33,680
thinks that we're in the last days, it doesn't mean it's true. Everything

2754
03:46:33,719 --> 03:46:35,239
points in that direction. I could
be, but I mean, I think

2755
03:46:35,280 --> 03:46:41,319
you're getting ahead of yourself if you're
assuming that you know, oh we are

2756
03:46:41,399 --> 03:46:46,000
in the end times maybe double one
honey, one hundred dollars. Thank you

2757
03:46:46,079 --> 03:46:48,600
so much always dropping those fat super
chats, winning the super chat contest.

2758
03:46:48,920 --> 03:46:54,079
Appreciate that order our soul five dollars
dedicated video. Maybe too exhaustive explanation of

2759
03:46:54,120 --> 03:46:58,159
the distinction between epistemic certitude and normative
authority. Yeah, maybe we should,

2760
03:46:58,200 --> 03:47:03,799
but I mean we've I mean if
I've covered that like thirty times on thirty

2761
03:47:05,399 --> 03:47:07,840
open forums. It's like people if
they really want the answers, they can

2762
03:47:07,879 --> 03:47:11,319
go back and kind of watch that. I mean, gub does literally a

2763
03:47:11,479 --> 03:47:18,440
timestamp for every live stream. I
mean, like you know, he turns

2764
03:47:18,479 --> 03:47:26,120
it out, So thank you for
that. If you guys want access to

2765
03:47:26,159 --> 03:47:30,959
the books, remember you can go
to the website get copies of my philosophy

2766
03:47:30,959 --> 03:47:33,680
books, my Hollywood books, the
Red Book. Remember also, you guys

2767
03:47:33,719 --> 03:47:37,399
got to get take us to our
live event in Hollywood. I don't know

2768
03:47:37,440 --> 03:47:43,079
why everybody isn't just immediately jumping on
this. It's going to be amazing fun

2769
03:47:43,040 --> 03:47:50,120
because when else are you going to
be able to come and meet Jamie Kennedy

2770
03:47:50,239 --> 03:47:58,799
and then immediately go and have a
debate with me. If you want to

2771
03:47:58,799 --> 03:48:03,760
come to bait me, I don't
care he come to bait and then come

2772
03:48:03,840 --> 03:48:11,479
over here. We got five hours
of talk lecture, five hours of entertainment,

2773
03:48:13,120 --> 03:48:16,760
five hours of bring your theology questions
or geopolitical questions or whatever. Just

2774
03:48:16,920 --> 03:48:20,040
come get your ticket right here at
the event bright You can see it right

2775
03:48:20,079 --> 03:48:28,280
there. And it's not just for
California bros. If you live in the

2776
03:48:28,680 --> 03:48:31,799
Vegas area, you can come over
there as well. If you live in

2777
03:48:31,920 --> 03:48:37,879
there's the link for the tickets right
there. I will be covering geopolitics,

2778
03:48:39,000 --> 03:48:45,559
espionage, and orthodox metaphysics. Jamie
will be covering Jamie my wife will be

2779
03:48:45,639 --> 03:48:52,799
covering Hollywood Witches and Bitches, Hollywood
witchcraft, Hollywood witchcraft. Jamie Kennedy will

2780
03:48:52,799 --> 03:48:56,360
be doing stand up and he's a
lot of fun. We had a great

2781
03:48:56,440 --> 03:48:58,680
ton. So it's not what we
did at the last LA event what eight

2782
03:48:58,719 --> 03:49:03,920
months ago. This is a different
all different material. Okay, So I

2783
03:49:03,959 --> 03:49:05,879
don't think that well I already saw
this. No, No, this is

2784
03:49:05,959 --> 03:49:11,760
all different and it's gonna be like
a five hour NERD party. I mean,

2785
03:49:11,600 --> 03:49:15,200
where are you at? Why aren't
you here? Get your ticket now?

2786
03:49:16,200 --> 03:49:18,000
Go ahead, sign up right there, event. Right, there's a

2787
03:49:18,040 --> 03:49:22,719
link, and let's see. Got
another super chat here, ricky five dollars?

2788
03:49:24,639 --> 03:49:28,120
Can you do the I'm so pious
that you should be praying and not

2789
03:49:28,280 --> 03:49:33,000
depict I'm so pioused that I don't
understand why these people would go onto the

2790
03:49:33,079 --> 03:49:39,280
internet and not post their prayers.
Jesus says very clearly in the Sermon on

2791
03:49:39,319 --> 03:49:43,360
the Mount to make sure that you
stand on the street corner of Twitter and

2792
03:49:43,440 --> 03:49:48,600
tell everybody when you're praying, and
that God would lift you from heaven.

2793
03:49:50,159 --> 03:49:52,360
And if you're debating, then you're
not as pious as me. How's that?

2794
03:49:52,440 --> 03:49:56,600
Is that what you wanted? Let's
see somebody else wants to come on

2795
03:49:58,840 --> 03:50:07,040
Flame two. Get your tickets y'all
March fifteenth, Friday night. That's even

2796
03:50:07,079 --> 03:50:09,920
better than last time. Last time
was like a weeknight. We still got

2797
03:50:09,920 --> 03:50:11,840
one hundred people, So get your
tickets right there, March fifteenth, Friday

2798
03:50:11,920 --> 03:50:20,799
night. Yes, sir, okay. So I have two questions. I'm

2799
03:50:20,840 --> 03:50:24,239
not debating you. I can't do
that. But I have two questions and

2800
03:50:24,319 --> 03:50:28,200
they're kind of connected. So the
first would you rather ask them one of

2801
03:50:28,280 --> 03:50:31,040
the one? I asked one question
and you answer, do I do I

2802
03:50:31,159 --> 03:50:37,840
just put do I just ask both
of them? Okay? So I'll just

2803
03:50:37,879 --> 03:50:41,879
say both of them. Okay.
So after his resurrection, why did Jesus

2804
03:50:41,040 --> 03:50:46,319
need to ascend so that the Holy
Spirit could descend when both were existing at

2805
03:50:46,319 --> 03:50:50,079
the same time. When Jesus was
baptized, the Holy Spirit was present with

2806
03:50:50,200 --> 03:50:54,399
him. Had he stayed and started
his thousand year kingdom, then the whole

2807
03:50:54,440 --> 03:50:58,399
world to be Christian. The Church
shouldn't be divided as the authority would default.

2808
03:51:01,520 --> 03:51:03,399
So let's hold on. Let's answer
the first one. That's okay,

2809
03:51:03,479 --> 03:51:07,239
So let's answer the first one.
So it has nothing to do with whether

2810
03:51:07,440 --> 03:51:11,680
the Holy Spirit was omniscient or like
he wasn't here. It has to do

2811
03:51:11,760 --> 03:51:15,120
with the mode of his presence.
The Holy Spirit was not present in the

2812
03:51:15,239 --> 03:51:18,799
mode of empowering the church at Pentecosts, so that's why pentecost is something new.

2813
03:51:20,239 --> 03:51:26,159
So it's a new mode and new
empowerments in presence that is not present

2814
03:51:26,280 --> 03:51:28,520
prior to that. In the same
way, so we say the same thing,

2815
03:51:28,559 --> 03:51:31,799
for example, about Jesus. Jesus
is on the present, but the

2816
03:51:31,959 --> 03:51:37,479
unique mode of his incarnation is different
from just being omni present. So for

2817
03:51:37,600 --> 03:51:43,000
example, when Jesus was walking around
in Jerusalem. He's present in Jerusalem in

2818
03:51:43,079 --> 03:51:46,200
a unique way that's not identical to
his presence in the rest of the world

2819
03:51:46,319 --> 03:51:50,239
through his Omniscients. So both are
true at the same time. But it's

2820
03:51:50,280 --> 03:51:54,920
a new mode of presence. So
when he has said that he achieved that

2821
03:51:56,079 --> 03:51:58,440
new mode of presents, no,
I just said that when he was incarnate,

2822
03:51:58,799 --> 03:52:03,760
he was in a unique mode and
new mode of being in the form

2823
03:52:03,799 --> 03:52:07,600
of man as scripture says. So
the incarnation is his entering into the canotic

2824
03:52:07,719 --> 03:52:13,440
state, kinosis and new mode of
being. The Pentecost of descent is the

2825
03:52:13,879 --> 03:52:20,520
new mode of the presence of the
Holy Spirit. Okay, So the whole

2826
03:52:20,559 --> 03:52:22,959
point of his ascension was sor the
Holy Spirit. Now, there was a

2827
03:52:24,079 --> 03:52:26,399
multiple many points to the ascension.
For example, in the Book of Hebrews

2828
03:52:26,479 --> 03:52:31,360
in chapters six, seven, and
eight that describes the cleansing that he would

2829
03:52:31,399 --> 03:52:37,040
do in the typological fulfillment of the
high priests entrance into the Holy of Holies,

2830
03:52:37,040 --> 03:52:41,319
when he would sprinkle the mercy seat
that was typologically the ascent of Christ

2831
03:52:41,399 --> 03:52:43,680
into the Third heavens, the true
Holy of Holies, to cleanse the way

2832
03:52:43,840 --> 03:52:48,680
in our nature for us. So
his assumption of our nature to thenk go

2833
03:52:48,760 --> 03:52:52,040
into the presence of God. And
the ascension is the ability for us to

2834
03:52:52,120 --> 03:52:56,559
achieve thiosis and to be sons of
God. So the ascension was required in

2835
03:52:56,639 --> 03:53:01,559
that sense, correct, Okay,
I'll have to read more into that.

2836
03:53:01,799 --> 03:53:07,959
So my second question would be why
did Divinity bother with the Old Testament?

2837
03:53:07,000 --> 03:53:11,239
If it was all meant to foreshadow
Jesus, why not sin Jesus assurely as

2838
03:53:11,280 --> 03:53:15,680
possible during the time of Adam,
and then he could have taught all that

2839
03:53:15,879 --> 03:53:18,399
was needed, died and then was
resurrected to start the New Covenant, and

2840
03:53:18,440 --> 03:53:22,840
then he could have assented and done
all the things you said before. What

2841
03:53:22,040 --> 03:53:26,399
was the point of the Old Testament? Well, I think that in God's

2842
03:53:26,559 --> 03:53:31,280
providence and infinite knowledge, he waited
until the time was right, as scripture

2843
03:53:31,319 --> 03:53:37,159
says, to bring the birth of
the Messiah, when humanity had been led

2844
03:53:37,200 --> 03:53:41,920
to a certain stage, and so
due to probably the effects of sin,

2845
03:53:41,120 --> 03:53:46,280
humanity probably couldn't bear a lot of
the truth and teachings and things that were

2846
03:53:48,239 --> 03:53:50,600
that were brought about, for example, the time of Christ. Like you

2847
03:53:50,680 --> 03:53:56,799
have the example of Alexander the Great
spreading Greek culture such that cooin a Greek

2848
03:53:56,959 --> 03:54:01,879
was everywhere, so providentially, coin
a Greed was the means by which the

2849
03:54:01,000 --> 03:54:05,840
message of the Gospel spread throughout a
lot of the Empire at that time.

2850
03:54:05,399 --> 03:54:09,799
And if you didn't have a language
as an example, you know, if

2851
03:54:11,520 --> 03:54:15,639
Jesus had come at the time of
Abraham, right, there's not a widespread

2852
03:54:15,799 --> 03:54:20,399
language that would have been useful in
that way. So God usually likes to

2853
03:54:20,639 --> 03:54:26,920
use existing human providential things. So
I think he also wanted to show and

2854
03:54:28,079 --> 03:54:33,879
demonstrate a fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies, as opposed to like if you'd come

2855
03:54:33,920 --> 03:54:37,440
the day of Abraham, there would
have been like only a handful of prophecies,

2856
03:54:37,399 --> 03:54:43,280
but rather by waiting a few millennium
you have hundreds of prophecies that are

2857
03:54:43,319 --> 03:54:46,399
stacked up throughout the Bible that ended
up being fulfilled. So it's another attestation

2858
03:54:46,639 --> 03:54:50,040
to you know, the Jesus being
them sized. And there might be other

2859
03:54:50,159 --> 03:54:56,799
reasons that as humans finite, we
don't even know sure maybe but might come.

2860
03:54:56,959 --> 03:55:00,840
I think my question was that,
so basically, if he had appeared

2861
03:55:00,840 --> 03:55:03,799
as early as possible during the time
of Adam, that would have been that

2862
03:55:03,879 --> 03:55:07,520
would have been pre that would have
been pre Babel, so everybody would have

2863
03:55:07,559 --> 03:55:11,040
been speaking the same language. So
I don't think that would have been a

2864
03:55:11,200 --> 03:55:16,079
problem. And I feel like Jesus, Chris, why do you think everybody?

2865
03:55:18,479 --> 03:55:22,479
Every everybody is not speaking the same
language. That's why Babel is confused

2866
03:55:22,639 --> 03:55:26,920
because at Babel, if they if
Babel had been achieved, they would have

2867
03:55:26,079 --> 03:55:30,680
spoken one language. So what do
you mean they spoke? I thought they

2868
03:55:30,719 --> 03:55:33,319
were speaking one language while they were
building Babel, and then God made them

2869
03:55:33,360 --> 03:55:35,920
all have to fall. Well,
I mean, yeah, okay, maybe

2870
03:55:37,040 --> 03:55:41,680
they were. But my point is, like Jesus, I see what you're

2871
03:55:41,719 --> 03:55:46,239
saying, right, But the first
thing is Jesus actually is all over the

2872
03:55:46,280 --> 03:55:50,879
Old Testament. He's the person talking
to Abraham. He's the one who He's

2873
03:55:50,920 --> 03:55:58,559
the one who scrambled the languages at
at the babyl mm hmm. But wouldn't

2874
03:55:58,600 --> 03:56:01,239
have made more sense to enconne during
the time with Adam as early as possible?

2875
03:56:01,840 --> 03:56:05,319
Well, but God wanted so.
One thing that the progressive revelation does

2876
03:56:05,639 --> 03:56:11,719
is that it expands the call.
So for example, in Genesis it's a

2877
03:56:11,799 --> 03:56:16,479
family, and then by the time
of Abraham it's a tribe and by the

2878
03:56:16,559 --> 03:56:18,760
time of Moses it's a nation,
and then by the time of Christ it's

2879
03:56:18,799 --> 03:56:26,000
an empire that is global. So
there's this gradual expansion that I think shows

2880
03:56:26,079 --> 03:56:31,559
the Covenant is broadening and bringing more
and more people into it. So for

2881
03:56:31,639 --> 03:56:37,639
whatever reason, God wanted to gradually
expand it, all right, And my

2882
03:56:37,840 --> 03:56:43,559
last question would be what would be
the best book on the introduction to Orthodox

2883
03:56:43,600 --> 03:56:50,959
philosophy. Well, John Damascus Is
Fount of Knowledge is a classic book that

2884
03:56:50,120 --> 03:57:01,280
introduces it, but also Yarislav of
Pelican's book christian the one about the Cappadocians

2885
03:57:01,360 --> 03:57:07,440
and Metaphysics Christianity in the class Christianity, Classical Tradition, The Metamorphosis is Natural

2886
03:57:07,520 --> 03:57:09,399
Theology and the capp Dotionans by yar
Slav Pelican B. L I K.

2887
03:57:11,479 --> 03:57:16,520
Christianity and the Clastical Tradition and yar
Slav Pelican P. E l I K.

2888
03:57:18,840 --> 03:57:22,520
Okay, because that will that will
teach you the terms of the Cappadocians.

2889
03:57:22,959 --> 03:57:26,559
Anamascus has Found of Knowledge is really
just kind of going through a bunch

2890
03:57:26,639 --> 03:57:33,479
of Aristotelian philosophical terminology, Okay,
and will it and we will That second

2891
03:57:33,559 --> 03:57:37,040
book by Staff Willot teach middle of
the terms as well, so things like

2892
03:57:37,399 --> 03:57:45,120
theosis mode and like yes, yes, yes, okay, thank you,

2893
03:57:45,440 --> 03:57:52,760
Yeah, good questions. I appreciate
that. We'll do one or two more

2894
03:57:52,840 --> 03:58:09,200
here, Jason, Yeah, i'm
you. Hey, Jay, I'm here.

2895
03:58:11,799 --> 03:58:16,200
I noticed that in a debate when
someone said it was silly to think

2896
03:58:16,319 --> 03:58:22,920
that death entered because of the world, because of sin, because the first

2897
03:58:22,159 --> 03:58:28,559
salad would have been death. But
and I noticed that in your answer you

2898
03:58:28,680 --> 03:58:33,360
didn't say, well, in Christianity, life is in the blood. And

2899
03:58:33,440 --> 03:58:37,000
I thought, oh, that was
an easy one. We don't classify lettuce

2900
03:58:37,159 --> 03:58:41,319
as being alive, but can you
talk about that a little bit? Well,

2901
03:58:41,680 --> 03:58:46,000
that's just equivocating on the word alive. And so yeah, I think

2902
03:58:46,120 --> 03:58:50,079
plants are alive. There's nothing wrong
with saying plants are alive because plants die.

2903
03:58:50,239 --> 03:58:54,559
If a plant dies, then it
was alive. And all death entered

2904
03:58:54,600 --> 03:58:58,360
as a result of the fall,
including plant life. Okay, So that's

2905
03:58:58,440 --> 03:59:01,319
the position that you take, is
that plant death occurs because of the fall.

2906
03:59:01,920 --> 03:59:05,920
All death occurs because of the fall. Yeah, got you? Okay,

2907
03:59:05,840 --> 03:59:09,040
very good, Thank you very much. And you do you don't take

2908
03:59:09,079 --> 03:59:16,840
that position? I well, I
grew up Protestant, And when I under

2909
03:59:16,200 --> 03:59:22,959
my understanding of life, I thought
they were eating salads in the garden of

2910
03:59:22,040 --> 03:59:28,040
eating and like eating fruit. And
that is that now the mode of existence,

2911
03:59:30,000 --> 03:59:33,440
the mode of existence prior to the
fall is different than after the fall.

2912
03:59:33,479 --> 03:59:37,319
That's why God says that he killed
an animal and made them skins.

2913
03:59:37,360 --> 03:59:41,040
That's talking about our flesh, physical
body that we have now. So the

2914
03:59:41,159 --> 03:59:43,639
type of bodies that they had were
not identical to the bodies that we have

2915
03:59:43,799 --> 03:59:48,879
now. Understood, if you read, if you read, if you read

2916
03:59:48,959 --> 03:59:54,239
Romans eight, it says that all
death, all entropy, all you know,

2917
03:59:54,319 --> 03:59:58,280
whatever, it's the result of the
fall. Matt, what's up,

2918
03:59:58,319 --> 04:00:13,959
Matt being man? Two dollars?
What do you think about Catholic social teaching

2919
04:00:13,000 --> 04:00:18,200
subsidiarity, human dignity, common good? Where does it overlap with Orthodoxy?

2920
04:00:18,360 --> 04:00:22,520
Well, I mean those are kind
of you know, those are kind of

2921
04:00:22,719 --> 04:00:26,399
vague phrases. So do I believe
in human dignity, Yeah, but not

2922
04:00:26,040 --> 04:00:30,879
in not on the same basis,
hold on, not on the same basis

2923
04:00:30,920 --> 04:00:37,159
as the Roman Catholic uh to base
it on you know, natural law would

2924
04:00:37,879 --> 04:00:43,879
Yeah, it's just hold on a
minute, common good, I mean common

2925
04:00:43,920 --> 04:00:46,159
good is kind of a basic Yeah, of course we believe in the common

2926
04:00:46,159 --> 04:00:48,799
good, but that's also kind of
a basic idea, so we'd have to

2927
04:00:48,840 --> 04:00:52,159
be more specific. I just don't
think that the Roman Catholic idea that all

2928
04:00:52,239 --> 04:00:56,959
that is somehow based on self evident
principles of natural law makes any sense.

2929
04:00:58,120 --> 04:01:01,399
But probably a lot of the basic
ideas we would agree with. Sure,

2930
04:01:01,760 --> 04:01:11,399
go ahead, what's your what's your
idea? Matt? Go ahead? Hey,

2931
04:01:11,520 --> 04:01:18,040
jam I'm currently Pentecostal, but I
have been looking into Orthodoxy. But

2932
04:01:18,120 --> 04:01:26,920
I've just been struggling with I suppose
that whole scripture and tradition, and I

2933
04:01:28,200 --> 04:01:37,360
just wanted to that the sacraments are
actually outside the church as well as inside

2934
04:01:37,399 --> 04:01:41,840
the church. You're cutting out,
man, Sorry. So in terms of

2935
04:01:41,959 --> 04:01:46,680
tradition, I would say, uh, you know, Paul talks about handing

2936
04:01:46,760 --> 04:01:50,280
on the traditions as he delivered them. In Corinthians, Paul talks about the

2937
04:01:50,399 --> 04:01:56,040
oral and the written traditions, and
second Thessalonians. You know, tradition is

2938
04:01:56,600 --> 04:02:00,319
just means what's handed down, right, So there's good traditions and the bad

2939
04:02:00,399 --> 04:02:03,360
traditions. The Canada Scripture itself is
part of the church's tradition, like what

2940
04:02:03,479 --> 04:02:07,920
books make it up. The Bible
itself doesn't identify which books go into the

2941
04:02:07,959 --> 04:02:11,120
canon, so the church is necessary, tradition necessary, So Jesus is refuting

2942
04:02:13,120 --> 04:02:16,520
traditions that replace what God says,
not all tradition. You're yell, what's

2943
04:02:16,600 --> 04:02:28,440
up? Can you hear me?
Sir? Hey? So I'm a long

2944
04:02:28,520 --> 04:02:31,840
time listener, man, I was
just wondering. I had a few questions.

2945
04:02:31,440 --> 04:02:35,600
I well, actually, let me
say this. I started rereading the

2946
04:02:35,680 --> 04:02:39,879
Bible from the very beginning because I've
been a long time believer in Christ,

2947
04:02:39,959 --> 04:02:41,680
but I never really read the Old
Testament, so I'm kind of going through

2948
04:02:41,719 --> 04:02:48,079
it again fully, you know,
as as an adult. And so I

2949
04:02:48,159 --> 04:02:50,719
just had a couple of questions to
see what you you know, what you

2950
04:02:50,840 --> 04:02:56,799
thought? Do you have any disagreements
but today specifically about disagreements? Oh no,

2951
04:02:56,920 --> 04:03:01,079
I apologize. What's your question?
Make it quick? Okay? Well,

2952
04:03:01,120 --> 04:03:07,959
I was just wondering. So a
lot of the truth are people who

2953
04:03:09,040 --> 04:03:11,520
I don't know if they read the
book, they always reference the fallen angels

2954
04:03:11,600 --> 04:03:16,120
when they talk about the sons of
God. And I was wondering, like

2955
04:03:16,280 --> 04:03:20,159
what your take on that was,
because how I understand it is that the

2956
04:03:20,280 --> 04:03:26,559
sons of God would be Set's bloodline. And yeah, I don't think there's

2957
04:03:26,559 --> 04:03:28,840
any there's not one orthodox position on
this. You can believe in angels or

2958
04:03:28,879 --> 04:03:33,760
Seth. I believe that if you
accept the Dudero canon. There's about four

2959
04:03:33,879 --> 04:03:37,000
places in the Duero canon where it
specifies and makes it pretty clear that it

2960
04:03:37,079 --> 04:03:39,799
is uh titans or giants. Uh. So I've always believed in the angel

2961
04:03:39,840 --> 04:03:45,680
here. Okay? Cool? And
then one more thing, if you could,

2962
04:03:45,959 --> 04:03:50,680
who do you think that Satan has
like an actual identity? And if

2963
04:03:50,719 --> 04:03:54,239
he does, like, what do
you mean of course he's an angel?

2964
04:03:54,280 --> 04:03:56,319
What do you mean? Well?
Okay, that's why I was wondering.

2965
04:03:56,399 --> 04:03:58,959
I thought he was an angel,
But like, does he have another name?

2966
04:04:00,360 --> 04:04:01,520
And where does the name? Where
does Lucifer come from? I hear

2967
04:04:01,520 --> 04:04:05,319
a lot of people say Lucifer,
but I don't see that connection. That's

2968
04:04:05,319 --> 04:04:13,600
in Isaiah fourteen. But does isn't
that referencing a king? It's comparing Satan

2969
04:04:13,760 --> 04:04:18,079
to the king and the king to
Satan. Interesting? Okay, he does

2970
04:04:18,120 --> 04:04:20,360
this a lot. I mean,
Ezekiel twenty eight does the exact same thing,

2971
04:04:20,399 --> 04:04:26,440
where it compares another king to Satan. So the fall of a king

2972
04:04:26,600 --> 04:04:28,719
is compared to the fall of the
pride of Lisfer, So it's a both

2973
04:04:28,799 --> 04:04:33,920
and not in either war. Interesting, Okay, thanks man? Yeah,

2974
04:04:33,719 --> 04:05:01,559
good questions, Ryan Hard. What's
up? Ryan Hard? You gotta unmute,

2975
04:05:01,600 --> 04:05:11,120
man, guys, you gotta umute
Rein Hard. You gotta unmute if

2976
04:05:11,159 --> 04:05:30,559
you want to talk. Okay,
don't you demonea what's up? Yeah?

2977
04:05:30,760 --> 04:05:33,719
Can you hear me? Yeah?
What's up? Man? Yeah? Right,

2978
04:05:33,479 --> 04:05:37,719
so I don't I know. I
heard you say that this is mostly

2979
04:05:37,719 --> 04:05:41,079
for disagreements. I don't know if
it's a disagreements. Well, yeah,

2980
04:05:41,120 --> 04:05:45,319
so everybody calls in on the day
of disagreements and they don't disagree. What's

2981
04:05:45,399 --> 04:05:48,360
up? Yeah, I'm not I'm
not trying to be rude, but I

2982
04:05:48,360 --> 04:05:52,680
want to go back to Rhinehard because
you might actually disagree. Soday is for

2983
04:05:52,840 --> 04:06:01,040
disagreements and nobody ever calls them disagrees. Go ahead, Ryan Hard. Although

2984
04:06:01,200 --> 04:06:03,879
actually we had a great conversation with
a disagreeing Romancalllic for like an hour hour

2985
04:06:03,920 --> 04:06:09,280
and a half, So I take
that back. Most people known what's yep?

2986
04:06:09,120 --> 04:06:13,799
Yeah, Jay, I just wanted
to ask what unites in the hypostatic

2987
04:06:13,920 --> 04:06:18,040
union. What are the things that
unite? They unite Christ? What do

2988
04:06:18,079 --> 04:06:22,879
you mean at the union? Right? What unites? Like when we speak

2989
04:06:22,920 --> 04:06:26,239
of a union, we're speaking of
two things that unite. What are those

2990
04:06:26,319 --> 04:06:31,040
things with respect to Christ? Right? So the divine person who possesses the

2991
04:06:31,079 --> 04:06:39,280
divine nature unites himself to a human
nature. So it's the person uniting himself

2992
04:06:39,319 --> 04:06:41,920
to the human nature, correct?
Because yeah, because then I'm just wondering

2993
04:06:41,959 --> 04:06:46,319
because usually when we talk about a
union, those two things become one after

2994
04:06:46,440 --> 04:06:50,159
the union, right, So it's
like an objection by you know, the

2995
04:06:50,239 --> 04:06:54,479
Orientals that I'm struggling with. So
if we're saying that the person unites with

2996
04:06:54,559 --> 04:07:00,319
the nature, what becomes one.
That's why it's called the hyposthetic union.

2997
04:07:00,399 --> 04:07:03,680
And this is why even after the
union and the two Letters to six Census,

2998
04:07:03,799 --> 04:07:07,959
Cyril talks about two natures. This
is cleared up at the Fifth Council.

2999
04:07:07,799 --> 04:07:11,879
In the word in hypostatic. So
the human nature exists in the mode

3000
04:07:11,879 --> 04:07:18,559
of the divine logos who assumed it. Yeah, I understand that the logos

3001
04:07:18,559 --> 04:07:22,399
assumes the human nature, right,
And what is the logos? Do you

3002
04:07:22,440 --> 04:07:24,920
think the logos is just a divine
nature or is he a person with a

3003
04:07:24,000 --> 04:07:28,639
nature? No, the Logos is
the person of Christ. Okay, so

3004
04:07:28,719 --> 04:07:33,200
then you affirm what I just said. Yeah, and I'm not I'm not

3005
04:07:33,360 --> 04:07:35,040
taking a contrary stance. I'm just
asking. I don't think that answered my

3006
04:07:35,159 --> 04:07:39,520
question. I think it did answer
the question. But how did it not

3007
04:07:39,840 --> 04:07:43,120
said? Was that the logos assumed
the human nature and that he exists within

3008
04:07:43,200 --> 04:07:46,479
that human nature? You understand.
So it's in hypostatic Do you know what

3009
04:07:46,520 --> 04:07:50,719
that word means? In hyposthesization?
Is that what you're talking about? Yeah?

3010
04:07:52,000 --> 04:07:56,399
Yeah, isn't that when the person
assumes the nature and then the nature

3011
04:07:56,440 --> 04:08:00,000
subsists within the person. Well,
but it also applies to the human nature,

3012
04:08:00,079 --> 04:08:01,319
or that it exists in the mode
of the logos that assumed it.

3013
04:08:01,559 --> 04:08:07,200
Sure, yeah, yeah, sure. So I'm saying what became one after

3014
04:08:07,280 --> 04:08:09,440
the union? I know that he
assumed the human nature. I'm saying what

3015
04:08:09,559 --> 04:08:13,120
became one? When two things unite, they become one? Yeah, but

3016
04:08:13,239 --> 04:08:16,200
they become one in what way?
It doesn't mean they become a tertion quid

3017
04:08:18,399 --> 04:08:22,120
you could take numerically, I guess, yeah, but this isn't either or

3018
04:08:22,280 --> 04:08:26,680
right, So it's not a tertion
quid. So the monophyside position is a

3019
04:08:26,840 --> 04:08:31,600
tertion quid. And then what happened
in the death? Sorry, what happened

3020
04:08:31,639 --> 04:08:33,959
in the What in the death?
If it's a tertiam quid? What happened

3021
04:08:35,000 --> 04:08:39,120
in the death? Like, I
don't understand what you're asking me. So

3022
04:08:39,200 --> 04:08:43,479
you're not familiar with the common objections
to the monophicide position, but you're trying

3023
04:08:43,479 --> 04:08:46,040
to arguement opthetism. I'm aware of
the objections. What do you mean,

3024
04:08:46,719 --> 04:08:48,520
Well, then you would be aware
of what I just asked you. What

3025
04:08:48,600 --> 04:08:54,079
happened in Christ's death? Oh?
When Christ died, his human soul separated

3026
04:08:54,120 --> 04:08:58,280
from his body. Okay, so
he maintains the human nature and it's not

3027
04:08:58,399 --> 04:09:01,040
a tertion quid. Yeah, yeah, the human nature doesn't go away when

3028
04:09:01,079 --> 04:09:05,479
he dies. Okay, then you
agree with the Orthodox position. Yeah.

3029
04:09:05,680 --> 04:09:07,840
Like I said at the beginning,
I agree with your position. That's still

3030
04:09:07,920 --> 04:09:11,760
not answering my question. It is
answering your question because something could be one

3031
04:09:11,959 --> 04:09:15,959
in more than one way. So
only if you have a reductionist idea of

3032
04:09:16,079 --> 04:09:18,120
what one means would you think that
it's a tertium quid. Do you know

3033
04:09:18,159 --> 04:09:20,079
what I mean? Boyu? Turton
quid? Okay, okay, that's fine,

3034
04:09:20,079 --> 04:09:22,760
that's fine. You answer my question. Okay, that's fine. Do

3035
04:09:22,840 --> 04:09:26,520
you know what a teri quid means? Okay, so you've been answering and

3036
04:09:26,520 --> 04:09:28,879
you don't even know what that means. But the concepts we're talking about I'm

3037
04:09:28,920 --> 04:09:31,280
familiar with. I mean, you
can explain the word. I'll guarantee you

3038
04:09:31,319 --> 04:09:37,360
I know what it means. Well, this is a common term in monophysite

3039
04:09:37,440 --> 04:09:43,079
oriental disputes between Orthodoxes. But you
acted like you knew about it. What

3040
04:09:43,239 --> 04:09:48,600
have I gotten wrong? Well,
you're giggling because you're talking. That's not

3041
04:09:48,719 --> 04:09:52,040
English, right, So what I
understand the concept? Okay, well hold

3042
04:09:52,040 --> 04:09:54,360
on, if you understand, if
you understand the concept, what is it?

3043
04:09:56,319 --> 04:09:58,879
Look, I'm saying you can explain
the word and I'll know the concept.

3044
04:10:00,000 --> 04:10:03,680
You've already been sassy, being condescending
and giggling at me like this is

3045
04:10:03,760 --> 04:10:05,680
like I didn't answer your question because
you think it's a gotcha to tell me

3046
04:10:05,799 --> 04:10:09,680
this like non English word, and
because it shows that you don't actually know

3047
04:10:09,760 --> 04:10:13,680
this dispute because you said you did. Yeah, so when like an English

3048
04:10:13,680 --> 04:10:18,040
speaker knows what essence means, that
it doesn't matter because you know what.

3049
04:10:18,879 --> 04:10:22,120
So you knew what in hypostaton was, but you don't know what Greek to

3050
04:10:22,159 --> 04:10:24,760
read. The quid is not a
Greek term, it's a Latin term.

3051
04:10:24,959 --> 04:10:28,760
I know it's an analogy. But
anyways, Jay, thanks for answering my

3052
04:10:28,879 --> 04:10:35,920
question. You answered it quite well. Yeah, see these people and you

3053
04:10:37,040 --> 04:10:45,159
definitely specified what became one? Right, So what is your position? The

3054
04:10:45,280 --> 04:10:48,799
question to ask? Right? So
this is a newly made profile. So

3055
04:10:48,879 --> 04:10:50,799
what's your real position? So you
made this profile to come on the debate?

3056
04:10:50,920 --> 04:10:56,120
Right? Yeah? Because I deleted
Twitter. I don't know why you

3057
04:10:56,280 --> 04:11:01,440
keep giggling like this is some goatcha. Uh huh, what's your point?

3058
04:11:01,280 --> 04:11:05,440
So? Who are you really?
Hey, here we go, here we

3059
04:11:05,440 --> 04:11:07,200
go. We gotta keep her pretty
my name now? So this is a

3060
04:11:07,280 --> 04:11:15,200
mute automatic blot. I'm well,
if you're irrelevant, why are you?

3061
04:11:15,319 --> 04:11:16,639
Why are you? Like? What
is so funny? Like I don't understand

3062
04:11:16,680 --> 04:11:20,559
the logic of these people? Why
do you keep repeating my name? Like?

3063
04:11:20,600 --> 04:11:24,120
Why do you do this? You
guys are all the same. Your

3064
04:11:24,280 --> 04:11:28,559
reasoning is horrible, My reasoning is
horrible. Okay, so you admitted that

3065
04:11:28,680 --> 04:11:39,200
you admitted I answered your question,
but the reasoning is horrible, h exactly.

3066
04:11:41,719 --> 04:11:45,760
So this is the you see how
he played this game. And I

3067
04:11:45,799 --> 04:11:50,399
can always immediately identify these people because
they start giggling and they start getting all

3068
04:11:50,520 --> 04:11:54,680
sassy and they pretend like they're pious, and then they start repeating my name,

3069
04:11:56,079 --> 04:11:58,719
and uh yeah, it's guy's ridiculous. So he doesn't even know.

3070
04:12:00,159 --> 04:12:03,399
Anybody who knows that dispute would know
what the word tertium quid means. It

3071
04:12:03,520 --> 04:12:07,440
means third thing, and he doesn't
know that, so he doesn't actually know

3072
04:12:07,719 --> 04:12:13,319
the basics of the dispute between Orientals
and Orthodox. That's a classic. It

3073
04:12:13,360 --> 04:12:16,840
doesn't mean you have to know the
Latin. It means that you would know

3074
04:12:16,959 --> 04:12:26,639
this dispute. And you notice how
the fake piety all spilled. It eventually

3075
04:12:26,719 --> 04:12:35,360
comes out. Hello, yeah,
what's up man, helly day, I

3076
04:12:35,440 --> 04:12:43,719
get to see you. I would
like to ask about the the one will

3077
04:12:45,040 --> 04:12:52,200
in the Roman Catholic side of do
you fil do you have any objections?

3078
04:12:54,440 --> 04:12:58,239
How does one will? How would
that prove Philou? No, no,

3079
04:12:58,360 --> 04:13:03,479
no, no, not because I'm
new and I'm just starting to understand,

3080
04:13:03,879 --> 04:13:09,399
and I understand the mostly the Eastern
Orthodox side, but then when it comes

3081
04:13:09,440 --> 04:13:15,920
to the Roman Catholic. There's an
objection to you made. If I'm mistaken

3082
04:13:16,000 --> 04:13:22,360
of the right, we're gonna move
I'm sorry, I don't know. I

3083
04:13:22,399 --> 04:13:24,040
don't understand. We're gonna move on. It's hard to understand what you're saying.

3084
04:13:26,959 --> 04:13:31,399
Uh, today is for people who
disagree objections reformed. Here we go.

3085
04:13:33,799 --> 04:13:39,920
We spent uh good bit of time
refuting reform, redeemed zoomer. I'm

3086
04:13:41,000 --> 04:13:50,680
mute, dude, reformed, man, I'm mute. Hello, yep,

3087
04:13:52,840 --> 04:14:00,319
what's up. I'm reading a little
bit about the ontology of scripture. I've

3088
04:14:00,360 --> 04:14:05,520
never really investigated the canon, and
I was just wondering if what the Orthodox

3089
04:14:05,639 --> 04:14:09,280
position is on the ontology of scripture
and if, like cool, the canon

3090
04:14:09,399 --> 04:14:13,040
is the canon is different from ontology. That's a historical question. So I

3091
04:14:13,040 --> 04:14:20,040
don't know what you're talking about.
Right, Well, there's like in the

3092
04:14:20,120 --> 04:14:24,719
reform to literature like that I'm reading, like Michael Kruger and stuff. They

3093
04:14:24,920 --> 04:14:30,520
posit an ontological canon that it's the
speech of God. That's called a historianism.

3094
04:14:30,639 --> 04:14:33,000
Right, So there's this like ethereal
thing that is the word of God,

3095
04:14:33,079 --> 04:14:37,079
that's the canon of scripture. But
then there's this historical thing that's another

3096
04:14:37,159 --> 04:14:39,479
thing, right, there's no such
thing as a Canada scripture that is not

3097
04:14:39,840 --> 04:14:45,559
the actual historical decision of the Church. So is it true that God knows

3098
04:14:45,639 --> 04:14:50,319
the canon of scripture? Yes,
that's not an ontological canon that a reform

3099
04:14:50,399 --> 04:14:56,479
person has access to outside of history, right, Well, I mean they

3100
04:14:56,559 --> 04:15:01,959
make arguments for that. It coincides
that it's a product of history. How

3101
04:15:01,000 --> 04:15:05,840
does that prove the Protestant canon because
the whole again, it's bypassing the fact

3102
04:15:05,920 --> 04:15:11,239
that the reform person has no access
to who God is apart from the Bible.

3103
04:15:11,399 --> 04:15:13,360
But the Bible is the thing in
question, so it's a way for

3104
04:15:13,440 --> 04:15:16,280
them to try to get around the
necessity of the Church in the decision of

3105
04:15:16,319 --> 04:15:20,600
the canon. But there is what
what access does a reform person have to

3106
04:15:20,760 --> 04:15:24,559
the mind of God to get the
canon? This is preposterous because when he

3107
04:15:24,600 --> 04:15:28,280
starts talking about God, his presupposition
is the canon. But that's the thing

3108
04:15:28,319 --> 04:15:35,600
in question, right, I guess
I don't. I'm new to these the

3109
04:15:35,760 --> 04:15:41,200
literature, so I was just I
don't really understand. It's just a made

3110
04:15:41,280 --> 04:15:45,760
up thing the reform people to try
to get as it's it's presupposing the thing

3111
04:15:45,840 --> 04:15:48,399
in question, Oh, I don't
need to go to the historical church to

3112
04:15:48,479 --> 04:15:52,040
get the canon, because I have
access to the God canon in the mind

3113
04:15:52,079 --> 04:15:56,200
of God. No you don't.
Well, I think the argument that I've

3114
04:15:56,559 --> 04:16:03,920
come across is the the ontological canon
is or the way they the way they

3115
04:16:04,040 --> 04:16:08,879
explain is that they're kind of I
guess thing they try to say is a

3116
04:16:08,959 --> 04:16:15,559
defeater is that the speech of God
constitutes the Church, and the Church is

3117
04:16:15,600 --> 04:16:21,479
a recipient of the canon, but
not the doesn't give the the speech.

3118
04:16:21,600 --> 04:16:25,000
The speech of God is identified as
the second person of the Godhead, the

3119
04:16:25,079 --> 04:16:26,840
Logos. So you could say that, you could say the Church is a

3120
04:16:29,399 --> 04:16:33,200
bearer of God's word and a manifestation
of the body of the Logos. Sure,

3121
04:16:33,639 --> 04:16:37,200
but none of that in any way
gets around the historical fact that the

3122
04:16:37,319 --> 04:16:40,319
Church determined the cannon within history.
I mean, even James White admitted this

3123
04:16:40,479 --> 04:16:42,600
in his debate with Trent. Right. Well, that's the thing, That's

3124
04:16:42,639 --> 04:16:48,319
what I guess I'm confused about because
the scholars, let's put it this way.

3125
04:16:48,399 --> 04:16:51,360
Let's put it this way. How
does positing any of that tell you

3126
04:16:51,520 --> 04:16:57,159
what books go in the Bible.
That's a good question. It doesn't it

3127
04:16:57,200 --> 04:17:00,639
doesn't do that, So it's just
another way to try to assume the Protestant

3128
04:17:00,680 --> 04:17:08,959
can interesting, So what's the uh. Is there like a book that I

3129
04:17:10,040 --> 04:17:14,319
could read to help understand. Yeah, I would read two Protestant books on

3130
04:17:14,399 --> 04:17:18,319
this. I would read H.
Lee McDonald's book The Formation of the Christian

3131
04:17:18,360 --> 04:17:21,120
Biblical Canon, and I would read
F. F. Bruce's book The Cannon

3132
04:17:21,159 --> 04:17:26,000
of Scripture, and you'll see two
Protestant scholars basically emitting the centrality of tradition.

3133
04:17:26,319 --> 04:17:29,959
So that was the thing that convinced
me back in the day of this

3134
04:17:30,200 --> 04:17:33,360
at this point, but thank you, Reform Buzzer, appreciate that. Lewis

3135
04:17:37,040 --> 04:17:47,120
Lewis, hey, ja, Yeah, I just wanted to ask with regards

3136
04:17:47,120 --> 04:17:52,559
to the Trinity. I'm Christian,
by the way, but we say that

3137
04:17:52,760 --> 04:17:56,639
there is one will in the Trinity. So the focus on Holy Spirit share

3138
04:17:56,680 --> 04:18:02,600
one will the more they have the
same will. But then I'm quite new

3139
04:18:02,639 --> 04:18:06,879
too of those theology. Actually,
So when the Father sends the Spirit,

3140
04:18:06,959 --> 04:18:12,120
for example, how does that work? So because it is in the Father

3141
04:18:12,280 --> 04:18:18,360
willing for himself to send the spirit, and so is the Spirit willing that

3142
04:18:18,479 --> 04:18:21,840
as well, I don't understand how
it was. Yeah, the will is

3143
04:18:21,920 --> 04:18:25,920
a common faculty or property that exists
in the mode of the persons that have

3144
04:18:26,079 --> 04:18:27,920
it. So there's not three wills, there's one will, but that one

3145
04:18:27,959 --> 04:18:30,840
will has had in the tropos or
the mode of the three persons that have

3146
04:18:32,000 --> 04:18:37,440
it. So uh, yes,
each each person individ actualizes you could say,

3147
04:18:37,520 --> 04:18:40,879
the one action in a unique role
or in a unique mode. So

3148
04:18:41,079 --> 04:18:44,680
the father sends the son, for
example, the father sends the son to

3149
04:18:44,719 --> 04:18:48,120
become a carnate. Son becomes a
carnate, and then the son sends the

3150
04:18:48,159 --> 04:18:52,920
Holy Spirit to the church. So
that one action of redemption is triadic,

3151
04:18:52,680 --> 04:18:56,879
but it's executed, you could say, in the mode of the three persons

3152
04:18:56,920 --> 04:19:03,959
that have that one action. So
we have to just distinguish person nature essence

3153
04:19:03,040 --> 04:19:08,120
or are accuming person nature, will
and energy and mode. So people oftentimes

3154
04:19:08,159 --> 04:19:12,879
forget mode as a very important trinitarian
distinction. So what you're looking at is

3155
04:19:14,000 --> 04:19:18,159
the difference between the property or faculty
of nature and the mode of that property,

3156
04:19:18,239 --> 04:19:22,879
which is in the mode of the
person. So it's even though person,

3157
04:19:23,040 --> 04:19:26,600
even the will is not a property
of nature, it exists in the

3158
04:19:26,719 --> 04:19:32,920
mode of the person that has the
nature. I wait, I see so

3159
04:19:33,040 --> 04:19:37,000
did you what did you just say? Will is not a property of nature?

3160
04:19:37,360 --> 04:19:40,239
No, will is a property of
nature, but exists in the mode

3161
04:19:40,280 --> 04:19:44,920
of person that has the nature.
Yeah, okay, then yeah, okay,

3162
04:19:44,959 --> 04:19:48,799
that's fine. That answers it.
Yeah, good questions? Those are

3163
04:19:48,879 --> 04:19:52,719
those are really Yeah, just remember
that mode is just as important for trinity

3164
04:19:52,840 --> 04:19:56,840
ent theology as you know any of
the other terms, like you know,

3165
04:19:57,479 --> 04:20:03,639
energy, essence, nature. Mode
is just as important u k h f

3166
04:20:03,799 --> 04:20:06,040
F. Now this is for people
that disagree. Well, have like one

3167
04:20:06,079 --> 04:20:11,319
person that disagreed today and that one
snarky soy I'm an off site guy they

3168
04:20:11,399 --> 04:20:22,280
called in. Can hear it?
Hey, j I was just wondering,

3169
04:20:23,319 --> 04:20:29,520
as far as the EP goes,
do you have any disagreements or just about

3170
04:20:30,159 --> 04:20:33,520
Okay, that's come on, bro, Yeah, I'm not trying to be

3171
04:20:33,600 --> 04:20:34,639
mean to you. Don't get mad
at me and saying I'm not being mean

3172
04:20:34,680 --> 04:20:38,479
to you specifically said many times today. Is for people who disagree. It's

3173
04:20:38,520 --> 04:20:42,600
not about EP and mer curious,
what's unless you have a disagreement about that

3174
04:20:42,959 --> 04:20:47,159
topic or something that Roman Catholt guy
thought that the EP was a good argument.

3175
04:20:56,719 --> 04:21:03,840
Go ahead, gotta umute. Uh, Jay I was launching your debates

3176
04:21:03,879 --> 04:21:08,159
with Matt Dilonti and whatever. But
would you say that atheism is impossible,

3177
04:21:11,760 --> 04:21:17,120
uh, logically impossible? Like No, when we say the word impossible,

3178
04:21:17,159 --> 04:21:21,719
we mean like, uh, like
when we say atheism is impossible. Right,

3179
04:21:21,879 --> 04:21:23,399
you would say that entails a contradiction. Yeah, you know we've already

3180
04:21:23,399 --> 04:21:26,360
addressed this like multiple times. So
did you just want to repeat the argument?

3181
04:21:26,440 --> 04:21:33,479
It's a metallogic metalllogical argument. Go
ahead and address it, right,

3182
04:21:33,520 --> 04:21:37,079
Well, I've addressed it many times. But your argument, your argument rests

3183
04:21:37,600 --> 04:21:41,360
it rests on the argument, the
argument that you're going with. I've already

3184
04:21:41,360 --> 04:21:45,479
know this is J Mike's argument.
The argument rests on the assumption that everything

3185
04:21:45,600 --> 04:21:48,879
is. You're not gonna let me
finish, So it's a first it's not

3186
04:21:48,040 --> 04:21:52,200
a first right, So the argument
is about the possibility of logic at all,

3187
04:21:52,799 --> 04:21:59,879
not a first order logic argument.
Okay, that's the addressing of your

3188
04:22:00,040 --> 04:22:07,600
objection. What's my objection that the
proposition or that the belief in atheism does

3189
04:22:07,680 --> 04:22:10,600
not entail a contradiction. That's where
you're arguing, right, That's not what

3190
04:22:10,680 --> 04:22:12,920
I said. That's that's the argument
that you guys make right is not the

3191
04:22:14,000 --> 04:22:15,799
belief in it. Okay, So
now you're now you want to haggle over

3192
04:22:15,879 --> 04:22:21,639
words. No, it's it is
you're haggling over words. And I've already

3193
04:22:21,680 --> 04:22:26,040
addressed this many times metalogical questions.
That's fine, I understand that, okay.

3194
04:22:26,440 --> 04:22:27,959
But the thing is that you're also
making the other claim, right,

3195
04:22:29,000 --> 04:22:33,200
the first order logical claim that atheism
is impossible logically, which would mean that

3196
04:22:33,280 --> 04:22:34,879
it has to intail You didn't even
know what it means in terms of justifica

3197
04:22:36,040 --> 04:22:40,879
contradiction, like who's out there of
us thinking it doesn't entail a contradiction?

3198
04:22:41,959 --> 04:22:48,799
What's the contradiction. The contradiction is
if the denial the denial or the non

3199
04:22:48,920 --> 04:22:56,920
acceptance of the necessary condition for the
possibility of knowledge. What you're doing is

3200
04:22:56,000 --> 04:23:02,760
you're both affirming that and that condition
at the same time. That's a contradiction.

3201
04:23:02,840 --> 04:23:04,600
Well, hold on, hold on. That would just be a contradiction

3202
04:23:04,680 --> 04:23:07,479
in the beliefs of the said person, which I just addressed, right,

3203
04:23:07,559 --> 04:23:10,920
Even if I was to take that
as true, that would just mean that

3204
04:23:11,040 --> 04:23:15,520
one person, That would just mean
that one person has contradictory beliefs. I'm

3205
04:23:15,520 --> 04:23:19,479
talking about the world view of atheism, and I just I just said that.

3206
04:23:21,680 --> 04:23:26,000
Yeah, you said that. Now
he's changing the subject to an individual

3207
04:23:26,079 --> 04:23:30,239
atheist, as if it's not addressing
the actual claim. Is like me saying,

3208
04:23:30,760 --> 04:23:33,680
is is impossible because Jay Dyer has
some contradictory position. I know that's

3209
04:23:33,799 --> 04:23:37,799
that's not what we're arguing. That's
exactly what you said. No it's not,

3210
04:23:37,840 --> 04:23:41,200
but it is. He said,
this is the reason it applies to

3211
04:23:41,280 --> 04:23:45,479
everybody is because it's prior to argumentations, because it's a metallogical Argument's about the

3212
04:23:45,520 --> 04:23:49,399
possibility of logic at all. That's
the point that applies to any that applies

3213
04:23:49,440 --> 04:23:53,520
to any position, that applies to
any position. Yeah that's fine, so

3214
04:23:55,200 --> 04:24:00,360
anonius or whatever. Okay, So
that presupposes that knowledge is even possible.

3215
04:24:00,399 --> 04:24:03,959
How would this go through on an
epistemological nihilist? You think we haven't addressed

3216
04:24:04,000 --> 04:24:07,920
that? You how many times epistemological
nihilists have caused and called in We have.

3217
04:24:07,079 --> 04:24:11,840
We've addressed it in the past.
Addressed now because if we've already addressed

3218
04:24:12,079 --> 04:24:15,399
this isn't even is this even your
position? Are you're just coming out with

3219
04:24:15,479 --> 04:24:18,760
other positions? This isn't your position, No, Jane, Look you try

3220
04:24:18,799 --> 04:24:21,479
to understand what I'm saying. Listen
closely. I said, I know what

3221
04:24:21,600 --> 04:24:23,639
epistemic nihilism is. We've had them
call in many times and say, you

3222
04:24:23,680 --> 04:24:26,239
don't know what it is, so
maybe just try to listen. I said,

3223
04:24:26,760 --> 04:24:30,520
how would this go through on an
epistemic nihilist. That's not to say

3224
04:24:30,559 --> 04:24:34,079
that I am one. You can't
get through a second order statement about epistemic

3225
04:24:34,239 --> 04:24:41,000
nihilism. So epistemical nihilism does not
accomplish what they wanted to do because there's

3226
04:24:41,000 --> 04:24:44,920
a second order, there's a third
order that they don't get out of the

3227
04:24:45,000 --> 04:24:48,559
problem. Mm hmm. Yeah,
but they do. And this is why,

3228
04:24:48,760 --> 04:24:51,760
right, you said that, The
reason that it would be contradictory is

3229
04:24:51,840 --> 04:24:56,559
because the atheist is going to have
to affirm something about the necessity or like

3230
04:24:56,639 --> 04:25:00,559
the necessary preconditions for the intelligibility of
knowledge, right, the intelligibility of mathematics,

3231
04:25:00,639 --> 04:25:04,000
logic, all that stuff. But
an that systemic nihilist would just deny

3232
04:25:04,079 --> 04:25:07,000
the existence of those things. Yeah, and so now you can't make sentences.

3233
04:25:07,120 --> 04:25:11,719
So now you can't make arguments.
So now you can't make arguments or

3234
04:25:11,760 --> 04:25:15,600
sentences. We've heard that a thousand
times. That's why. I don't care

3235
04:25:15,639 --> 04:25:21,040
that you've heard it because it's been
addressed a thousand times. Yeah, so

3236
04:25:21,159 --> 04:25:23,000
what do you what do you do? You want to be cool like I

3237
04:25:23,040 --> 04:25:26,239
don't. Yeah, I don't get
it. Okay, so can you just

3238
04:25:26,319 --> 04:25:30,360
address it instead of saying you've addressed
it? Yeah. The addressing is that

3239
04:25:30,520 --> 04:25:33,799
if you adopt that position, you
can't make arguments anymore. So, yeah,

3240
04:25:33,159 --> 04:25:36,920
I know, I'm talking to you
now. This is my this is

3241
04:25:37,000 --> 04:25:38,520
my thing. I'm talking to you
now, and I'm addressing it by telling

3242
04:25:38,520 --> 04:25:42,079
it. I'm addressing it by telling
you that if you adopt that position,

3243
04:25:42,159 --> 04:25:45,760
you can no longer argue or make
sentences at all. And if you want

3244
04:25:45,799 --> 04:25:47,719
to, and if you want to
do that, then you can. Then

3245
04:25:47,760 --> 04:25:51,399
you then that's fine. Then the
then you have to drop the MinC.

3246
04:25:51,920 --> 04:25:55,360
The thing is that thestemic nihilist could
just agree to all those conditions, it's

3247
04:25:55,360 --> 04:25:57,920
still wouldn't right, So then so
then we've won. Then we've won the

3248
04:25:59,000 --> 04:26:03,680
debate and they can't if they listen, if you can't make sentences, all

3249
04:26:03,760 --> 04:26:06,520
right, if you're gonna if you
don't shut up, I'm booting you shut

3250
04:26:06,600 --> 04:26:07,639
up, or I'm booting you shut
up. Round booting you. I know,

3251
04:26:07,760 --> 04:26:18,719
I know you want an excuse,
Okay, Jade, Yeah, so

3252
04:26:18,799 --> 04:26:25,399
we've addressed this. Probably you don't
get out of it because you say,

3253
04:26:25,520 --> 04:26:30,399
I don't accept anything. This is
so dumb. There's an epistemic import in

3254
04:26:30,559 --> 04:26:36,920
making those second order statements about their
epistemic nihilism that they're not assenting to something.

3255
04:26:37,440 --> 04:26:41,159
Yeah, j Mike is so low
tire. He doesn't even understand that

3256
04:26:41,680 --> 04:26:47,440
adopting a position where you don't believe
in logic doesn't get you anywhere in a

3257
04:26:47,520 --> 04:26:49,920
debate. I mean, that's it's
so obvious, it's so crazy. What

3258
04:26:49,959 --> 04:26:52,319
would you say to this father deacons? Somebody says, well, but I

3259
04:26:52,440 --> 04:26:56,959
don't I don't believe in logic or
any of your positions, and therefore you

3260
04:26:56,040 --> 04:27:00,520
can't prove Christianity. Well, first
of all, you're making a second order

3261
04:27:00,600 --> 04:27:07,079
statement, right, an epistemic statement. Third point that I wanted to make,

3262
04:27:07,120 --> 04:27:11,559
and I just addressed this in my
paper, is you get them to

3263
04:27:11,719 --> 04:27:18,079
admit some type of epistemic deflationary position. I'm not in a position to know.

3264
04:27:18,200 --> 04:27:26,879
Okay, what do they do?
They immediately slip back in their epistemic

3265
04:27:26,959 --> 04:27:30,719
stuff that they want that they just
denied to say, well, that doesn't

3266
04:27:30,799 --> 04:27:34,600
prove Oh wow, now you're making
another epistemic statement. Notice all the epistemic

3267
04:27:34,719 --> 04:27:40,879
statements he was saying, Well,
that doesn't include a contradiction, and that

3268
04:27:41,040 --> 04:27:44,719
doesn't work for this, that doesn't
do well Wait a minute, I thought

3269
04:27:44,760 --> 04:27:48,440
you just admitted you're not in a
position to make any statements epistemic statements.

3270
04:27:49,719 --> 04:27:56,079
So you want to see a contradiction, that's exactly a contradiction. And furthermore,

3271
04:27:56,200 --> 04:28:00,399
the contradictions entailed. And I'll say
a couple things, because you're correct

3272
04:28:00,440 --> 04:28:07,000
to you to point out the contradictions
entailed and not a belief that you have,

3273
04:28:07,200 --> 04:28:12,920
but the lack of assenting to the
necessary conditions while at the same time

3274
04:28:14,840 --> 04:28:18,920
assuming the necessary conditions. This is
why ran Till says there is no atheist,

3275
04:28:18,840 --> 04:28:22,760
it's just those that deny God.
So that's a contradiction. But my

3276
04:28:22,879 --> 04:28:26,159
final point that I want to make
is the point that you are making about.

3277
04:28:26,159 --> 04:28:33,680
So this is a metallogical, metapistemological
consideration. What comes first epistemically the

3278
04:28:33,799 --> 04:28:42,959
necessary conditions that make contradictions normatively binding
as far as leading to falsehood or the

3279
04:28:44,040 --> 04:28:48,159
contradiction itself. Notice what they want
to do. They want to put contradiction

3280
04:28:49,079 --> 04:28:56,680
is the first epistemic standard, first
epistemic principle, right, and then try

3281
04:28:56,760 --> 04:29:00,680
to reduce everything to that while we're
pouring now that well, wait a minute,

3282
04:29:00,719 --> 04:29:06,040
what why should I think that's a
justification. I've addressed this in my

3283
04:29:06,120 --> 04:29:12,040
paper before too. All contradiction means
is at that level from their worldview,

3284
04:29:12,799 --> 04:29:18,799
I can't do this psychologically without this
happening. It certainly doesn't say it's a

3285
04:29:18,959 --> 04:29:23,440
normative that you ought to or that
it's binding on us, that it leads

3286
04:29:23,559 --> 04:29:30,120
to falsehood, or any or the
rejection of a contradiction leads to knowledge and

3287
04:29:30,200 --> 04:29:38,280
truth. So they fail to grasp
the meta loogical, metapistemological question, what

3288
04:29:38,559 --> 04:29:48,440
stands behind there that makes the avoidance
of contradiction normatively binding on us, or

3289
04:29:48,520 --> 04:29:52,200
that contradiction leads to falsehood. They'll
never be able to answer it. They'll

3290
04:29:52,239 --> 04:29:52,920
say, Oh, I don't know, I don't have to answer that.

3291
04:29:53,040 --> 04:29:56,079
Why slip it all back in and
pretend that I've already had an answer for

3292
04:29:56,200 --> 04:30:04,120
it. So it's totally disingenuous and
self refuting. Yeah, he just repeats

3293
04:30:04,159 --> 04:30:08,239
this over and over and over.
It's like as if the repetition will like

3294
04:30:08,319 --> 04:30:11,479
make it somehow true. All right, thank you guys so much. If

3295
04:30:11,520 --> 04:30:14,520
you would hit like and share,
it's been a lot of fun. Be

3296
04:30:14,600 --> 04:30:18,799
sure and head on over to uh
the supporters of the show in the stream

3297
04:30:19,840 --> 04:30:23,920
and I will catch you guys there. Get tickets to the