1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:49,679 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:53,359 --> 00:01:30,480 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:30,159 --> 00:02:19,240 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 4 00:02:22,199 --> 00:03:15,479 the the the the the the the the the the the the bah. All 5 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:29,960 right, what's up? Everybody? Meltdown time? So people have said for 6 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:37,280 last few weeks because they want to get attention, they want clicks and whatever. 7 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:38,840 Oh, you want debate this guy, you want debate this guy. 8 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,199 So I've talked about having debates with this guy for months. He would only 9 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:50,159 want he only wanted to debate the Philly Oakuay. I wasn't interested in that 10 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,800 debate because he had already had that debate with UBI. We did a whole 11 00:03:53,800 --> 00:04:00,120 review of that debate with David Rhan and so I told him, I want 12 00:04:00,159 --> 00:04:09,360 to debate the thing that scholasticism rests on, which is the self evident maxims, 13 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:17,040 the first principles of your system, and if that falls, scholasticism isn't 14 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:20,439 true. He will not debate that. I've asked him for at least a 15 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,600 year now, maybe eight nine months to do it. He won't do it. 16 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:30,079 So he does a stream talking about me or something. I don't know. 17 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,399 I didn't watch the whole stream. Somebody sent it to him and said, 18 00:04:32,399 --> 00:04:34,160 hey, he's talking about you. Do you want to hop on? 19 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,199 And I went over there and said, I'm ready. I'll come over here 20 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,800 and debate you. So notice he won't come over to my end and debate. 21 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:49,040 He won't debate me. I'll go to his home court and argue with 22 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:56,399 him because when he's making this new regurgitated argument for philly oquay. Which keep 23 00:04:56,399 --> 00:05:00,680 in mind, these are people who think that citing authorities counts as arguments right 24 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,279 because they still exist in the Middle Ages. They think it's the year thirteen 25 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,600 hundred, even though the Vatican doesn't care about Tomism anymore, even though their 26 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:15,120 whole sect has moved past Tomism, literally doesn't care about it at all. 27 00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:19,839 These people believe and larp as if it's the year fourteen hundred and their heads. 28 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:30,360 They're living in a scriptorium online, and no one else in the rest 29 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,560 of the Roman world in terms of power, authority, and status, cares 30 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,920 about Tomism, So it only exists in the trid world. And why is 31 00:05:39,959 --> 00:05:46,439 the trid world melting down of late? Why are they having such issues well, 32 00:05:46,439 --> 00:05:51,480 it's not just because of the obvious absurdities that we point out with their 33 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:57,240 saints, which they have to hold to Margaret Mary Alacoquay's miracles and visions, 34 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:03,879 because her sainctity so called, is actually part of the ordinary magistrum. And 35 00:06:03,959 --> 00:06:09,680 we can look at those documents that discuss that in a minute. But imagine 36 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,839 saying that, well, I don't have to believe her visions. I just 37 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,120 can accept that she's a saint. Well, if her visions aren't true, 38 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:21,480 then she was a deluded woman. And according to Durami thirteen, Derami eighteen 39 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:28,079 Galatians one, false prophecies and false visions make you a fraud, not a 40 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:34,279 saint. So it's totally inconsistent to think that, oh, I can just 41 00:06:34,399 --> 00:06:40,439 accept Margaret Mary Alacoquay as a saint, but not all the visions about sacred 42 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:46,720 heart and that Jesus supposedly told her to carve his name into her chest and 43 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,560 sign a blood packed with the flowing blood, and then afterwards she reopened the 44 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:56,279 wounds to make it bleed more. This is the Roman Catholic idea of sanctity. 45 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,360 So there's something about the I mean, they are gluttons for punishment, 46 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:09,040 and I guess that's why they like to continue to be punished in these discussions 47 00:07:09,079 --> 00:07:15,480 when they make really fundamental mistakes. And what he's done here is a word 48 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:23,480 concept fallacy. So he thought that because there was discussion of relations in the 49 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,199 Cappadoceans, which is very frequent in the Orthodox tradition, we know all about 50 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,480 this, we talk about all the time. I've had doctor Bob Branson on 51 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:38,160 many, many times to discuss the Cappadocian triadology. That's what his dissertation is 52 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:45,160 about. And I've read a significant portion of the Cappadocian Corpus that's in English, 53 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:54,639 and their discussion is about relations of origin. Hypostatic properties are the foundation 54 00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:03,120 for the relations of origin. And as the famous Orthodoxy Elergi of Ladimirlowski said, 55 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:09,720 a person is a subject, not a relation. So you can't identify 56 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:16,480 persons even by relations. The persons have relations, but they can't be identified 57 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:24,439 primarily by a relation, because a relation is a predicate and a person or 58 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:28,720 a hypostasis is a subject. So they certainly have relations, and they certainly 59 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:35,720 have relations that are fundamental, such as the son is the son of the 60 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:41,879 father, so praternity to filiation. Those are certainly relations, but the relation 61 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:46,639 is not the person. And that's why when Aquinas says persona at rolatio, 62 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:52,559 the Orthodox tradition always took issue with that, because a relation, again is 63 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,720 a predicate and not a subject. A subject is a person, the subject 64 00:08:56,799 --> 00:09:01,919 Bob, the subject Bill, the subject son of God. Those are divine 65 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,879 subjects in the trinity. For us, a person is a subject or an 66 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:11,000 agent, and a relation is something that a person, a subject or agent 67 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:20,919 has. But because of the tendency towards collapsing collapsing distinctions into the essence Intnism, 68 00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:28,519 Augustinianism and then Tomism has always had a struggle and a tendency to speculate 69 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,440 and want to come up with ways to make these distinctions other than and outside 70 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:41,320 of the relations of origin and hypostatic properties that the Cappadocians and their theology ends 71 00:09:41,399 --> 00:09:48,039 up having dogmatized at the constantinople one. This is why the Cappadocians, for 72 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:52,039 example, speak of the Father unanimously in the writings as the soul cause. 73 00:09:54,799 --> 00:09:58,799 The hyposide of property that picks them out is soul cause fount ark and ark, 74 00:10:00,639 --> 00:10:07,960 et cetera. Source, that's his hypothetic property. Basil famously says that 75 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:13,559 the son is the son because he's the eternally generated son of the father. 76 00:10:15,799 --> 00:10:20,720 The spirit is the spirit because he's eternally spirated. And the famous quote from 77 00:10:20,799 --> 00:10:26,360 Basil is that there is a difference between spiration and generation. We know what 78 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:30,840 the difference is, we do not know. And that's pretty common. I 79 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,720 mean, that's very well known. It's a very common. So when you 80 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:41,320 get to stricter definitions or ideas of simplicity that we find in origin Plutonis and 81 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,600 then in Augustine, and that definition is essentially repeated between those three people. 82 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:56,320 And when simplicity is catched out mainly as not having distinctions, an absolute unity 83 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:03,240 without distinctions, you then have a challenge without presupposition. That's a metaphysical presupposition. 84 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:09,440 And the rod of Galwitz's thesis and the Bradshaw book showed that that's not 85 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:13,000 the approach that the Cavedocians did. And even the Kongar paper that we're talking 86 00:11:13,039 --> 00:11:16,720 about, which makes the point that there's a difference between relations of opposition and 87 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:24,919 relations of origin between august and the Cavedocians, admits this. So the funniest 88 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:31,519 part I think of the whole thing was just simply that he thought that relations 89 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:37,240 just always meant a relationship of opposition. When what happens in the course of 90 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:43,919 Trinitarian theology is that the Augustinian definition of simplicity, which then led to other 91 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,279 ideas like philly oaquey in on the Trinity, leads him to speculating about other 92 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:56,120 possible ways to distinguish the persons. So, for example, if we wanted 93 00:11:56,159 --> 00:12:01,120 to distinguish father son in his holy holy Spirit, but there is a philioque, 94 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,360 Now there's a new relationship and a new property, you could say that 95 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:11,000 father and son have that spirit lacks or if the father has a power, 96 00:12:11,919 --> 00:12:18,559 Augustine argued, then it seems to necessitate the son should also have that power 97 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:24,279 too, or else there would be a kind of subordination. But Augustine apparently 98 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,159 missed the fact that, well, if the spirit lacks that power, then 99 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:31,559 he's also subordinated. And that's the basis for namely, the power of causing 100 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:37,759 a person. So it's to confuse the hypostatic properties with the essential properties or 101 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,360 attributes. The essential attributes are common to all three persons. That's why the 102 00:12:43,399 --> 00:12:48,399 Cappadocians say that anything you say about the Trinity, it's either a property or 103 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:54,639 power positive property or power that one of them has unique to that one, 104 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:01,080 or it's common to all three persons. That's a Cappadot rule or law. 105 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,159 So, for example, causing a person can't be something that two persons have, 106 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,320 because that would mean that it's an essential property. If two have it, 107 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,639 three must have it. If it's an essential property, then the Holy 108 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,679 Spirit spir rates himself and nobody believes that except maybe idiot Roman Catholics. I 109 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:26,639 don't know. But the whole point here is just simply that monarchical trinitarianism in 110 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,440 the East and the Cappadoceans does not struggle with and have the same problems and 111 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:39,080 issues that later Latin theology has because of their assumptions about simplicity. Now, 112 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,840 if the debate really progresses to where I would like it to debate to go, 113 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,320 then what happens is that we realize that, well, we all know 114 00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:56,639 that the Plutonian definition of what simplicity is is true, do we? I 115 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,480 mean? Rodshaw's whole book Ariosol East and West is premised on arguing that the 116 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:07,159 Capbudotionans don't go with a plutonium definition of simplicity. Their definition of simplicity starts 117 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:13,919 with whether or not God is acted upon or whether he acts, And it's 118 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:22,639 obvious why the Cappudotions wouldn't want to start with a radical essentialist identity thesis view 119 00:14:22,679 --> 00:14:31,759 of simplicity like we see it fourth Lattering Council with Lombard, because it's very 120 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:35,360 difficult to have a triad when you start with an absolutely simple essence, it's 121 00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:43,240 your starting point. Triad becomes something tertiary, something secondary, something that's like 122 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:50,200 a diminished status. But regardless, all of this was none of this was 123 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,519 really what this issue was about, because I left to comment saying that he 124 00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:01,639 misunderstood relations of opposition in Augustinian theology and why it was used and why it 125 00:15:01,799 --> 00:15:11,679 arose versus relations in the Cappadocians, which is primarily relations of origin opposition. 126 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:18,200 As Orthodox theologians have criticized this position in the past, notes relates to two 127 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,320 things, to a diad, So if the trinity is really a triad, 128 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,879 it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to utilize the idea of opposition. 129 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:35,519 And by opposition, I mean the metaphysical baggage that comes along with dialectical opposition. 130 00:15:35,159 --> 00:15:41,799 And that's precisely what you see in Augustine. And if you doubt me 131 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:48,840 on this again, Congar wrote a whole essay just surveying the difference between the 132 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:56,279 Augustinian and Cappadocian approaches. It's not even really that controversial. But what's happened, 133 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,159 and this is what always happens with the Tomas and with these guys, 134 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:04,399 is that they utilize word concept fallacies where they see this word here, they 135 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:07,679 see the word over here, they then assume that it's all talking about the 136 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:14,360 same theological meaning. And they do that because of what they're epistemology. They 137 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:19,440 have an empiricist based epistemology. They believe in the peripatetic axiom that there's nothing 138 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,320 in the intellect that is not first in the senses. And that's a quote 139 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:32,000 from Aquinas and de ver Atat citing Aristotle. It's called the peripatetic axiom. 140 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,440 But no Toomas, no scholastic will be able to give an account for their 141 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:42,720 starting points, for their self evident principles. And I can just bring up 142 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:48,080 all day long the criterion problem, which they actually like to dismiss, even 143 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,639 though I shared a paper from a famous Catholic cardinal who cited at the very 144 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:56,919 top of the of the paper talking about how the criterion problem dominates philosophy. 145 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,600 So they don't even care about what their own academic say. They just handwaig 146 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,599 whatever's a problem to them. And they again, they think they're living in 147 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,920 the fourteen hundreds, so they don't have to answer or reply to any arguments 148 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,759 post fourteen hundred. Why because a quitiness bro because being bro And we saw 149 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:18,799 the other day the Thomas that was talking smack all day, he just didn't 150 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:22,319 come. He said, I will come and debate you at ten o'clock your 151 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:27,279 time or whatever. No show. Wagner's been saying, oh, you won't 152 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:32,160 debate me. He's scared. Dollar're scared. So I have to go to 153 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,440 his stream to debate him because I'm scared when I've been asking him to come 154 00:17:36,519 --> 00:17:40,559 debate these topics endlessly. Now, why would I talk about epistemology? You 155 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,119 just wanted to deflect. Oh, you just wanted to deflict. If we 156 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,440 get to an issue where, for example, the Thomas says, well, 157 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,680 we know that this is what simplicity means, because it has to mean this, 158 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:57,279 because that's what simplicity is. They have a metaphysical assumption. But if 159 00:17:57,319 --> 00:18:03,720 I have a different metaphysical assumption about simplicity and about energies and about God's unity, 160 00:18:03,759 --> 00:18:08,240 et cetera, et cetera, how do we resolve this question? Well, 161 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:12,440 ultimately it's going to go back to something more fundamental, because they're putting 162 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:18,559 the metaphysical cart before the epistemic course, which is what's our starting point for 163 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:25,000 going about these issues. For me, in my position, it's divine revelation. 164 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,920 It's not the first principles of Aristotle. I'm not going to let aristotles 165 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,799 philosophy dictate what things are possible metaphysically in the Bible. And this is precisely 166 00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:42,960 why they don't believe in the Theophanes. And I think it's going to be 167 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:49,440 obvious that they then must depart from what is listed in scripture. And that's 168 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,279 why I'm going to be from now, I'm just going to start going to 169 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:56,680 all the texts about God's glory being present in time and space, because that's 170 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,920 all that's needed to refute these idiots. Now they're gonna say, but it's 171 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,480 self evident that something that's absolutely simple can't have distinctions and blah, blah blah 172 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,440 blah blah. Okay, but now you're denying the Trinity, dummy, Like, 173 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:15,720 what are you talking about? So we're going to open it up. 174 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:25,559 We have some of the fans from that sphere. I don't want to limit 175 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:27,160 it to that though, So if we have people that want to come on 176 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:32,559 and discuss and defend other top topics, options are there as well. If 177 00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:38,400 you want to talk about Islam, Protestantism, Gnosticism, Unitarianism, we can 178 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,640 go into all of those as well. As my microlow. That's weird. 179 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:48,599 Oh I know why it's low. When you hop on stream Yard, it 180 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:55,079 automatically, it automatically de boosts your microphone. So that's better. Yeah, 181 00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:00,680 thank you for that. So his stupid ass stream Yard or muted my microphone 182 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:07,880 when I when I went on there. But let's give an example. So 183 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,480 here's a Roman Catholic website. Before we open it up to the Thomas here 184 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:17,920 that want to talk this, here's a Catholic a website doing the very thing 185 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,720 that we see these people trying to do. And perhaps he even utilized this 186 00:20:22,759 --> 00:20:26,759 website, who knows. But this website argues, for example, that the 187 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:36,880 Philly OK Way is mentioned for example in Toledo, and so I think he's 188 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,240 citing Denzinger here, whoever wrote this, and it's talking about how there's a 189 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,559 there's a relation. It's kind of mentioned in Toledo. You could say that 190 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:51,240 there's a way they think to distinguish the persons via relations of opposition. And 191 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:53,000 you can see that the fact that it's cited in Toledo, which is one 192 00:20:53,039 --> 00:21:00,279 of the first Philly oak Way supporting councils, you can see that the concern 193 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:07,599 is obviously associated with the mine simplicity and defending philioque. But then this, 194 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,319 even this Catholic guy notes that the Greek fathers understood that it accurately describing the 195 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:18,200 Trinity with the terms which have become common is difficult. Gregory the theologian says, 196 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,559 for example, what is it to be preceding? You explain the in 197 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,440 generacy of the Father, and then I will give you a biological account of 198 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,039 the son's begetting and the Spirit's proceeding. Now understand this is making the point 199 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,640 I made a few minutes ago that for the Cappadocians that there's a distinction between 200 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:37,880 generation and procession. We know and believe what that is. We do not 201 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:41,559 know, and so this even this Catholic website is noting that, right, 202 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:47,720 And then Gregory goes on to say, we don't know. We're not told 203 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,880 the specific distinction of the nature of generation versus firation, but rather it is 204 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,359 revealed to us that we know there is a son and that there is a 205 00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:00,440 holy Spirit. Now, notice this guy does the same thing that the Roman 206 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,400 Catholics do. Here where this other guy? So this guy he left so 207 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,400 that we got a Toomas, I'm about to go to you. You've been 208 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:15,880 saying you want a debate, and then he runs away. These are a 209 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,759 bunch of women, like they're a bunch of effeminate, like just ridiculous people. 210 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:22,640 That's why they all had to come on in the comments and say that 211 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,519 I got cooked when he booted me from his stream. So we'll play his 212 00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:32,759 clip here in a second. But I notice here what the Catholics going to 213 00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:37,200 do the same move to try to find in the Eastern Fathers, this idea 214 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,640 of relations of opposition, which is not there. There's relations of origin, 215 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,559 and we're going to see that. They also have this quote they're passing around 216 00:22:47,599 --> 00:22:49,599 y'all, thank you for coming back critical Tomas and we'll go to you. 217 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:57,480 In a second, Regomnissa says, the person of the Father is begotten, 218 00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:02,160 and the Holy Spirit proceeds. Is Therefore, because the cause of the persons 219 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,400 is one, we say that he is the one God and that he exists 220 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,759 an eternity with these others. So notice that that's relations of origin. You 221 00:23:11,799 --> 00:23:19,240 see that the persons of the Godhead do not differ in time or in space, 222 00:23:19,319 --> 00:23:23,319 or in occupation or in activity. They only differ between them in that 223 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,000 the Father is a father and not son. The Son is son and not 224 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,440 father. Holy Spirit is neither father nor son. So you can talk about 225 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:37,039 distinctions, you can talk about them having a differentiation of relation. But in 226 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:44,039 this very comment, it is not relations of opposition the way that it's formulated 227 00:23:44,079 --> 00:23:51,319 in the Augustinian arguments for filioque in divine simplicity. For example, in the 228 00:23:53,839 --> 00:24:03,359 Kongar paper when he explains this difference, there was a specific Augustinian quote I 229 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:19,640 wanted to read here. So by the way, this whole paper talks about 230 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,799 what I'm talking about, which shows that it's not it's not even really a 231 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:34,880 controversial thing here. It does I think this is it? Augustine says, 232 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,839 here it is in day trinitade. Augustin takes Biblical Texas his pointed departure to 233 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,799 show that they disprove the Aryan position. He then goes on to consider the 234 00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:52,319 problem if an intellectually valid agreement between the unity and diversity is necessary. If 235 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:56,000 there is that, if it's necessary, then at the same time sufficient to 236 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,759 distinguish between absolute and relative terms. The terms father's on the spirit distinguish the 237 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:06,759 persons, and they are relative, and they are relative in that they affirm 238 00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:11,279 the person's by opposing one to the other. The problem is that it is 239 00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:17,519 true to say that there is a relationship and that they do oppose one to 240 00:25:17,599 --> 00:25:22,799 another, but relations of opposition is not a sufficient means to distinguish the persons 241 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:29,039 without relations of origin. That's the whole point. And Conggar goes on to 242 00:25:29,079 --> 00:25:33,400 make that point to say that the competition fathers, even though he thinks that 243 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:38,720 they're intending to express the same thing, they don't really differ from one another. 244 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:48,799 I think Augustine does differ obviously disagree with Cungar. But since Augustine does 245 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:56,119 not express a consistent view of relations of origin to a sole cause, this 246 00:25:56,279 --> 00:26:03,079 leads to difficulties in trying to explain. Well, then perhaps it's what differentiates 247 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,640 son from spirit is that one is from one and the other is from two. 248 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:15,599 But that's a new additional property or attribute, right that again subordinate spirit, 249 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:21,440 because to be from one rather than to be from two isn't really a 250 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,400 consistent It doesn't really tell us anything without all the other things. And also 251 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:32,160 it violates the earlier competition principle that there's nothing there's no property or attribute that 252 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:40,599 two persons share that one lacks. So being from two is not some positive 253 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,759 property. And by the way, it's it is a positive property because it's 254 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,960 the father and the Son, according to Lines in Florence, together are a 255 00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:53,680 single principle of the power inspiration of the eternal existence of the Spirit. So 256 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,519 the Father and the Son together, as the councils of Line in Florence say, 257 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:04,160 form a single principle. So there's a singularity that's common to father and 258 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:11,240 son. That is the power that gives existence, eternal existence to the Holy 259 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:18,079 Spirit. And it's something then that the Holy Spirit clearly does not have. 260 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,400 And then he goes on to talk about the fact that part of the reason 261 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,160 for this is that the Cappetitions begin with person in their triology, and the 262 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:30,920 Thomas and the Augustinians begin their triology typically with essence. Yeah, exactly, 263 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,920 So what I said isn't really even that controversial. Now, I want to 264 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,599 talk briefly about before we go to critical Thomas the last point here, and 265 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,079 I'll play his clip later. But oh crap, let me do that. 266 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:59,119 So their argument is that there's a quote from Basil, and the quote that 267 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:04,640 they're passing around is kind of bizarre because it's not worded the way that the 268 00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:08,759 text that it supposedly is coming from is worded. So let's look at this 269 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:18,119 quote really quick, and you'll notice that it's just talking about hyposthetic properties. 270 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:27,240 It is not saying that relations of opposition is the primary way to distinguish the 271 00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:33,480 person's. In fact, it doesn't even really say that at all. In 272 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:37,279 the nature of distinguishing marks, that's for us, that's the hyposthetic properties, 273 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,839 and that's what Basil's talking about here, to show otherness in the identity of 274 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:48,440 the sub substance. So he's he's saying that the hypostatic properties mark out what's 275 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:52,240 distinct even though there's an identity of substance or essence in the trinity. As 276 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:56,319 for the distinguishing marks themselves, that is, the hypestetic properties, they are 277 00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:00,079 often contradistinguished from one one from another such that they are separated to the point 278 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:07,880 of being contraries. So they are contraries because they're of father versus son. 279 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,839 It's not dialectical opposition, and that's what is in the Augustinian and Tonistic position. 280 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,680 How are they separated, Well, they're separated because of the hypostatic properties 281 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,440 are markers. They certainly do not rupture the unity of the substance, as 282 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,359 with winged and footed, and aquatic and terrestrial, and rational and animal, 283 00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:36,720 Since there is one substance that underlies them, these distinguishing marks do not make 284 00:29:36,759 --> 00:29:40,599 the substance foreign to itself. So, in other words, the essence that 285 00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:44,480 the Sun has is not different than the essence that the Father has. Nor 286 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:51,319 are they persuaded to join each other in a kind of rebellion. They implant 287 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,400 the activity of the things that they identify as a kind of light in our 288 00:29:53,440 --> 00:30:02,480 soul and a guide to an unders standing attainable by our minds. But you 289 00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:07,000 know, Meius, having transferred the opposition of the distinguishing marks to the substance. 290 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:17,359 So it's not relations of opposition in the Augustinian sense, it's distinguishing relations 291 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:22,960 via relations of origin. He just uses the word opposition and he uses the 292 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:32,119 word contrary, so that's too contrast. He takes this from the starting point 293 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:36,519 of umpiety, scarring us with sophisms as if we were children, the light 294 00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:41,680 should indeed be something other than the unbegotteness. So Unmius, as you guys 295 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,119 know, was a radical area. And you know mes argue that the light 296 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,599 that is the Sun is radically different than the light that is the Father. 297 00:30:49,559 --> 00:30:53,200 So when the creed says God from God, light from light, Youunomius is 298 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:59,880 rejecting that. But this is not the same thing as Conguard emits as relation 299 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:06,279 of opposition as a means to distinguish the person's to help save the doctrine of 300 00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:22,039 the filioqui. So and note two that in that in that distinction, Basil 301 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:30,240 made it clear that the distinguishing marks or opposition is not a dialectical metaphysical opposition. 302 00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:36,559 It's a distinction of relations to the origin of the Father. If anyone 303 00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:38,480 wants to accept that which is true, namely that begotten and unbegotten, their 304 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:44,440 distinctive features that enable identification and are observed in the substance, which is the 305 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:47,319 Unomian position, which leads to the clear and unconfused. Note he's saying that 306 00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:49,759 if you if you don't make these distinctions, you'll be a Eunomian. This 307 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,160 leads to the clear, unconfused notion of the Father and the Son. Then 308 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,519 you will escape the danger of impiety and preserve the logical coherence in his reasoning. 309 00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:02,480 The distinctive features, which are like characters and forms observed in the substance 310 00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:12,039 the differentiate. So he's talking about the what the hypostatic markers or properties are, 311 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:15,240 beginning with the person of the Father and not the essence. So you 312 00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:20,319 understand that from the outset, the ordo theology of the Latin Church is wrong 313 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,720 because it tends, especially after our accidents in Middle Ages, to begin with 314 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,519 the essence as the starting point. Then you have the difficulty in the challenge 315 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:39,480 of distinguishing within the triad a reality of threeeness. But for the Cappadocians it 316 00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:43,559 begins with the person of the Father. As the other article that we just 317 00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:46,319 read admitted right, the other Catholic Guy's article not Kungar, but the other 318 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:52,920 one, noting that the Eastern fathers begin with the concept of the person of 319 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,000 the Father. This is monarchical trinitarianism. There's one God because there's one Father. 320 00:32:58,039 --> 00:33:00,519 That's what the Creed says. I believe in one God, the Father. 321 00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:04,680 Paul says, we have one Lord and Father of our Jesus, of 322 00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:14,079 Lord Jesus Christ. So for us, trinitarian theology begins with the person of 323 00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:16,000 the Father, and we do not know the divine essence, so it doesn't 324 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:22,400 make sense to even start any theology with the divine essence at all. He 325 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:28,359 says that these distinguishing characteristics, for example, pick out the person, and 326 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,680 yet the sameness of the substance or nature is common to all three, whereas 327 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:39,160 fatherhood and sonship are distinguishing marks. The combination of both that is common and 328 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,359 the unique we arrive at the comprehension of truth. So all he's saying is 329 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:52,960 that distinguishing marks of paternity and sonship are relations. They're real relations. They're 330 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,359 not fake or dislogical or conceptual. They're real relations. But remember, persona 331 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,720 at relatio cannot be true. A relation is a predicate and not a subject, 332 00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:09,039 and the persons are the subjects, they're the agents. Consequently, if 333 00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:15,440 you hear unbegotten light, you think of the Father. When you hear begotten 334 00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:17,760 light, you think of the sun. In so far as they are light 335 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,400 from light, or light and light, there's no contrarity between them, whereas 336 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,320 in so far as they forgot and begotten, one observes the opposition. So 337 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:35,320 this is just to distinguish them one from another. But because being not the 338 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,000 other is not a clear marker, right, because le let me give an 339 00:34:39,039 --> 00:34:43,159 example of this. Each of the persons is not the other two, right, 340 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,239 But that doesn't tell me anything. That's a true proposition. It is 341 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,719 true to say that the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, but 342 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,599 that doesn't work as an actual concrete thing to tell me anything, because all 343 00:34:54,679 --> 00:35:00,760 three of them equally share the proposition, not the other two. So even 344 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,440 though it's true, it doesn't really work as any kind of indicator or marker. 345 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:12,320 And strictly speaking, dialectical opposition, which is what we're talking about and 346 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,079 what's imported by the Augustinian position, only becomes necessary due to the radical, 347 00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:22,519 divine simplicity positions that they start with if you start your trinitary theology with the 348 00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:27,079 person of the Father, right, what does Palama say? God did not 349 00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:31,159 say I am it? In Exodus three in the in the Burning Bush, 350 00:35:31,159 --> 00:35:37,239 he said I am he, meaning that we begin with the personhood of the 351 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:49,760 Father, not the essence. So using the term like an even using the 352 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:57,159 term opposition, does not equate to the dialectical idea of relations of opposition that 353 00:35:57,199 --> 00:36:14,239 comes about in later theology as congo or even admits h critical tomist. Yeah, 354 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:23,760 go ahead, yeah, what's up? Man? I can't really hear 355 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:34,679 anything. I can hear you. Huh, come out, come back in. 356 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:59,199 I mean we can all hear you. M h autocratic Go ahead, 357 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,840 man, I'm you Hey, j how are you tonight? What's up? 358 00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:09,079 I just had some questions, like, of course I'm in the Orthodox Church, 359 00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:16,440 canonical Russian Orthodox Church currently in most of now actually, but I've been 360 00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:21,440 like looking at the Orthodox anymore and some people online, and I'd be curious 361 00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:25,679 to what you would say to the response to old calendars or like some people 362 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,800 call themselves true Orthodox. Yeah, I mean that's a separate topic. We 363 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,079 can deal with that. There's some essays that cover that topic. But that's 364 00:37:36,079 --> 00:37:40,760 not the topic for today. But thank you for for that critical you want 365 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:50,880 to try again. Thanks, there's some Manuka honey in that. Yeah, 366 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,599 what's up? Can you hear me? Yeah? How you doing? I'm 367 00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:58,239 good? How are you? I'm good. I watched your debate with Christian 368 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:04,199 Blagom, and I have a couple of questions. Sure, so you're talking 369 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,480 about you were saying that if the persons are distinguished by the relations, it 370 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:15,039 doesn't necessarily follow the like relatively like, relatively opposing each other? Is that 371 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:23,159 your position? Or so relative opposition is what's used by later Augustinian post Augustinian 372 00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:32,719 theological argumentation to deal with problems, for challenges to trinitarianism or to the filioquay. 373 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,960 So it's not a thing that you find in the capp of Doceians. 374 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,559 You find one reference to the word opposition, but that's not relations of opposition. 375 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,280 Okay, So what do you think relative Okay? So I'm going to 376 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,519 go what do you think relative oppositions are? And what do you think the 377 00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:52,599 church brothers mean when they say positions? Since the properties, the formal properties, 378 00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:55,880 in their essence, don't import any relations, and they don't make room 379 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,440 for any relative opposition, So what would you say, hold on, what 380 00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:04,199 do you mean? What doesn't make room for that? So for example, 381 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,639 like God's divine wisdom and gods divine being, or God's divine wisdom and God's 382 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:13,400 divine truth, things like formal properties like that, they don't import a real 383 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,559 relation between each other, the logical proprelations. So there's no like relative opposition 384 00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:22,400 there. But because the person's important, a relative opposition than the subsistent relations. 385 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:28,039 But you don't hold that, we believe that the attributes or the energies 386 00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:30,119 actually are really distinct. So I don't have a problem. I don't have 387 00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:36,639 the inconsistent position of saying that the attributes are all synonymous with each other and 388 00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:40,000 with the divine essence, but also the persons really are distinct. That's the 389 00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:45,079 term mystic position. Wait, you believe that the attributes to really so you 390 00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:50,599 believe that God's wisdom is not identified to goodness at all? Correct? Okay, 391 00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:55,880 So then how would you respond when someone tells you that you know, 392 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,760 you believe in a composite being. Yeah, because I don't believe in a 393 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,960 composite being any more than you do. Because you believe that the persons are 394 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,679 really not identical to each other. So you believe there's a real distinction between 395 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:10,960 the father and the son. Makes sense, That does, because it's the 396 00:40:12,159 --> 00:40:17,320 very argument that's had for centuries about this issue. No, So composition comes 397 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,840 from a dependency relation in the form of that the essential properties and something. 398 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,480 So the reason why I'm a composite being is because I'm a black man. 399 00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:30,719 My skin color is dependent on my substance, which is me. Now, 400 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:36,320 there's nothing you're saying. You're not a composite you are You said you're not 401 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,360 or are a composite being? No, I said I am a composite giving 402 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:45,199 oa. I agree with that, right, So when it comes to god, 403 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:46,920 we're not going to say obviously for the film, as I suppose, 404 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,119 because I don't take this position, but that all the formal properties are only 405 00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:53,800 like a virgin these things. I'm sure you know this here, Yeah, 406 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,400 of course, and we think that that. So then hold on, so 407 00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:02,639 how does it need to moveism? Sorry, because it's not consistent to say 408 00:41:02,679 --> 00:41:07,800 that the attributes are all identical and identical to the essence, and that the 409 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,400 persons are also strictly identical to the essence. But the persons are distinct amongst 410 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,920 themselves. I mean, have you read any of the topics, any of 411 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,440 the discussion of this topic. Right, I've read. I've read a couple 412 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,400 of papers. I've read this sc with theologia, I've read Aquinas Suma. 413 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,920 I've read a couple of papers. You've read the Aquinas Suma. I'm saying, 414 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,360 have you read on the debate between East and West on this topic? 415 00:41:29,559 --> 00:41:31,320 Now, have you read a bunch of of toll Oh? Yeah, typically 416 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,039 the East, of my opinion, no disrespect. They typically just cry about 417 00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:38,079 things that are not relevant. Okay, Well, let's let's talk about do 418 00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:42,639 you think the Bible is relevant? I think the Bible is relevant. I 419 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,599 think the Bibles against your position. But oh okay, well let's talk about 420 00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:46,920 that. So in Levitica, do you think no, no, no, 421 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,920 no, no, Let's go to that, because that's the key point. 422 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,559 Do you think do you think that God's do you think God's glory is created? 423 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,519 Go to glory? Depends on what you mean by glory and the way 424 00:41:58,559 --> 00:42:02,000 that glory is the same way that Jesus talks about sharing the Father's glory before 425 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,960 the foundation of the world. Right, So I would okay, so I 426 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,000 would say that God's glory is his end, which is identical to himself, 427 00:42:10,039 --> 00:42:13,960 but in the way that he so it's his essence, right, because all 428 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,079 the attributes are the divine essence. Right? I mean, what would you 429 00:42:16,119 --> 00:42:19,719 even define glory as? I mean, you don't think this is used in 430 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,920 scripture. I would just say glory is just like a manifestation of God's being. 431 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,360 Oh, exactly, and so God's being his his essence right? Right? 432 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,159 Okay, So did God's glory i ever appear in time and space? 433 00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:37,039 Right? So God can distribute his glory to creatures? At the second? 434 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,639 Did God's glory itself ever appear in time and space? Right? So? 435 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,920 I just said it depends on what you mean in the distribute God's the way 436 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:50,239 it's described in Leviticus nine. Right. Can you relax? I did God's 437 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,760 glory appear in time and space? Relax? I can think? I am, 438 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:59,360 I'm relaxed. I want the answer. Okay, so the station of 439 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:05,159 his being can be moldly conferred to creatures, and the glory is not a 440 00:43:05,199 --> 00:43:08,000 creature. So you just made a stupid mistake. Hold on, so you 441 00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:12,119 worship creatures? Hold on, let me finish. You just said it. 442 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,199 You just said, it's transferred to a creature. So I said, it 443 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,679 can be communicated to creatures in a Sicknay, So the glory of God in 444 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,320 Leviticus nine is a creature that they worship. Not true, That's not what 445 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:28,719 I said, because you did just say that. Agrees. Okay, you're 446 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,039 smart. Here we go, here we go calling out my name. Let 447 00:43:31,039 --> 00:43:35,360 me speak, right, yeah, I'm calling out your name being respectful. 448 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,360 You need to let me speak. Let's have a respect for this question. 449 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:42,559 But you already contradicted yourself, contradict myself. Okay, sure, yeah, 450 00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:45,599 you just said that it can be. You said the glory is God's essence, 451 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,519 and you're saying now it can be. It can be conveyed to a 452 00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:52,599 creature. So the worship of a creature as God's essence and God's glory being 453 00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:58,920 identical with his existence. No, okay, so God existed prior to his 454 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:04,599 existence. No, God always had a distinction between his essence and his energies. 455 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:09,599 He always transmitted and communicated his glory amongst the persons from all eternity. 456 00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:15,159 And it's not his ence. His existence is not identified as as beak. 457 00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:17,519 He didn't exist. How did that happen? How did what happened? He's 458 00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:22,840 always he's always shared that glory, as Jesus himself says. Okay, when 459 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,119 you say he shared that, your presupposing the thing in question, his existence. 460 00:44:25,119 --> 00:44:30,079 Does Jesus say that in John Seventhohn was Jesus an eternal person? No? 461 00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:32,519 No, no, no, stop refer scripture? Ah, exactly right. 462 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,719 Stop referring to scripture because your position actually is totally divorced from divine revelation. 463 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:43,039 Did God's glory? Did God's glory appear in Leviticus nine? Okay, 464 00:44:43,079 --> 00:44:45,559 stop referring to scripture? Notice how the Thomas operates. Everybody, the whole 465 00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:51,920 audience can see. Stop referring to scripture. You are stop referring to scriptures? 466 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:53,480 Can you actually? Here we go? So now he has to go 467 00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:59,039 to personal attacks. I stick to the scriptures, he says. Stop referring 468 00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:01,400 to scriptures. Sounds like a flipping You sound like crimes he or bro. 469 00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:06,639 Just relax, so invit. Now let's go to Leviticus nine. Explain to 470 00:45:06,679 --> 00:45:09,280 me how how the God, the glory of God is worshiped than Olyticus? 471 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:15,000 If God existence, if his existence is not identified as as being, but 472 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:17,159 he communicates something to his existence. How are you going to see, not 473 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:22,480 to his existence, dummy to another person, not to his existence to another 474 00:45:22,519 --> 00:45:25,400 person. So you just just listen. The whole thing is assuming to me, 475 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:30,599 your metaphysics is wrong. Your metaphysics is wrong. Why are we show 476 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,840 over each other? Because all of your arguments are coming from your metaphysical assumptions, 477 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,920 and I'm saying that they're wrong. Okay, you speak over people when 478 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,719 you know to have a good point. You don't have a good points because 479 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:45,400 you're you're avoiding. You're avoiding the points, all right, So let me 480 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,840 speak that talk about Leviticus nine. That's my argument. If you're confident, 481 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,639 let me speak. Would you let me speak? If you're going to address 482 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,400 Leviticus nine? Thank you? No? No, So you want a dress 483 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,920 scripture? So once again the others he wanted to dress scripture Leviticus nine, 484 00:45:59,039 --> 00:46:01,039 Or you're gone? Are you gonna? You're running away from something, you're 485 00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:06,079 deflecting from my argument. You're running from the Bible. You're running from divine 486 00:46:06,079 --> 00:46:10,679 revelations. I'm running. You're saying, don't quote scripture at me. Scriptures 487 00:46:10,679 --> 00:46:15,719 don't prove that God's existence is created. No, I don't believe that. 488 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,400 So now you're that's a strong man. You know, I'm not arguing God's 489 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:22,039 existence is cort So something that is not God is uncreated entirely speaking, So 490 00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:25,760 something that's not it's called the glory of God that appeared that they all worshiped. 491 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:34,119 Have you read leveticas? Do you know what? Okay, divine nature 492 00:46:34,159 --> 00:46:38,360 is uncreated and something that's not identified the divine natures uncreated. Right, that's 493 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,320 called the essence energy stinction. Right, that's our position. I'm glad you 494 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,039 think it's funny. And that' why you don't want to go to scripture. 495 00:46:45,079 --> 00:46:47,639 So what happened in Leviticus nine? What's what's? What are they worshiping in 496 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:53,039 Lemticus nine? You can't conceptually unless we're saying you can't go to these scriptures. 497 00:46:53,039 --> 00:46:57,559 Go, don't go to these scriptures. Bro, don't quote the Bible. 498 00:46:57,679 --> 00:47:04,679 Let me tell me what's happening in Leviticus nine? This guy, he 499 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:13,320 mean no God, no answer. How does it crease your point? The 500 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,159 glory of God is appearing in time and space. It's a common argument in 501 00:47:16,199 --> 00:47:21,239 all Orthodox theology. So they're worshiping it. It's not a creature you can't 502 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,719 worship creatures. It's a simple argument. So when go the people and he 503 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,559 appeared to creatures to the defects he's made, yes or no? Did he? 504 00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:35,519 What can he appear to creatures through the effects that he is? Me 505 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,639 it's not a created effect. It's called the glory of God. And you 506 00:47:39,639 --> 00:47:44,320 please answer this question. It is not a creator that you can't worship creatures. 507 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,039 Can you worship creatures? All right? So here we go, So 508 00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:50,960 all he does the same money, he won't answer the questions. Answer no, 509 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,679 I'm answering your question by saying that the text refute you. The Glory 510 00:47:54,679 --> 00:47:58,599 of God appears in time and space and they worship it. And you're saying, 511 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:15,079 but that that that I that is a qua? Is it a creature? 512 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,360 Can you actually be serious to me? Is it a creature? No? 513 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,519 I think you're I think I think it's funny or me? All right, 514 00:48:22,679 --> 00:48:25,599 just relax, I'm not I'm having fun I don't know anything. I 515 00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:30,079 need to relax. Keep your composure all right, keep your composion all right. 516 00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:37,440 When good, when God chooses to communicate to himself in creature to creatures, 517 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,400 can he do so through the effects that he's made just a simple question. 518 00:48:42,199 --> 00:48:44,920 He can, but this is clearly not a creative effect. It's called 519 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,199 the glory of God. Have you ever had an argument with a Muslim on 520 00:48:47,639 --> 00:48:52,119 Ye? Right, so you can. But that's not what's happening in this 521 00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:53,840 passage that has no relevancy of this pastor. Okay, okay, okay, 522 00:48:54,039 --> 00:48:59,519 Now tell me why in that passage you take it to be that God, 523 00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:04,440 that God's infinite essence. Where is one of his infinite essential attributes? And 524 00:49:04,679 --> 00:49:07,960 you want to say that because it's called the manifestation of his glory in time 525 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:13,679 and space? Okay, the manifestation, Yeah, Christ, glory is not 526 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:15,880 a creature. You can't worship creatures. Why do I have to take you 527 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,679 because you're not arguing against that. You're just restating a bunch of stuff about 528 00:49:20,679 --> 00:49:22,719 the passage. What's the argument against is you're saying it's not a creature. 529 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:28,119 I believe that God's infinite attributes are really identical with essence. I know that 530 00:49:28,159 --> 00:49:30,119 we all know the Thomas possession in any way, all right, so in 531 00:49:30,199 --> 00:49:37,000 any way that the Bible refers to God communicating, So you're metaphysics is wrong 532 00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:38,599 because it goes against the scripture. That's why you don't want to go to 533 00:49:38,599 --> 00:49:42,400 the Bible. That's what you said, don't put the Bible that scripture. 534 00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:45,519 It's one thing for it to go against scripture, and one thing for it 535 00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:47,719 to go against your meaning or your interpretation of scripture. Okay, well tell 536 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,760 me how it is you can worship a creature. You sound Protestant. You 537 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,559 need a right, So going to divine revelation is Protestant? Yes, exactly? 538 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,800 Did you realize? So you want to tell you what's really going on 539 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,599 is that you're You're metaphysics is wrong because it's it's the wrong starting point. 540 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,000 Look, I'm trying to have a respectful conversation with you. You can keep 541 00:50:07,039 --> 00:50:12,679 saying that, but you're just deflecting because your argument is that I'm a Protestant 542 00:50:12,679 --> 00:50:15,400 now by going to the scriptures when the scriptures clearly say over you do not 543 00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:22,519 understand it's the same it's the same part problem in the incarnation about Okay, 544 00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:27,079 yeah, so I'm talking about something that's so you're acting like this is not 545 00:50:27,159 --> 00:50:32,320 an actual debate. You don't think this is an actual debate philosophically, are 546 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,880 you conceiving that you cannot defend the philosophically that you have to refer. So 547 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:42,280 this is the point your my argument is that your philosophical position is wrong. 548 00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:46,960 How do you how do you deal with that? Phil your your philosophy is 549 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:52,280 wrong? Is my argument? Can I can defend it because I have the 550 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,119 right starting point, which is divine revelation? Yes, well that it just 551 00:50:57,159 --> 00:51:00,039 assumes that your philosophy is correct. Let's do that. You want let's go 552 00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:04,880 to philosophy. You want to do that, Yes, let's go to philosophy. 553 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,199 I'm saying, let's go to that. Can you do it? I'm 554 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,280 saying, yes, let's go to that. All right, cool, Now, 555 00:51:09,559 --> 00:51:15,639 when you have meta physical attributes? Okay, how do you know this? 556 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,719 How do you know that? Let's go, let's go to philosophy. 557 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,639 How do you know that that's the case? You just to let's go to 558 00:51:22,679 --> 00:51:25,280 philosophy. I want to know how you know these propositions that you're saying are 559 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:35,039 the case you just told me, I just told you. Unless you're reason 560 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,840 Oh well, that's my point. I think your position, if it was 561 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,960 consistent, would lead to skepticism. Yeah, because because you put your metaphysical 562 00:51:43,039 --> 00:51:45,800 cart before your episomic course, you wanted to go to philosophy. So if 563 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,760 you listen, if you don't shut up, I'm going to boot you. 564 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,840 Just shut up, Just shut up. No, you're on my stream. 565 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,000 You don't tell me what they No, you don't talk to me like that. 566 00:51:55,039 --> 00:52:00,920 You're on my stream. Have some respect, all right? I said, 567 00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:05,000 I'm gonna boot you if you don't shut up. You're not. I'm 568 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,639 not. I'm I'm I'm on my strength to me because you can't respond to 569 00:52:07,679 --> 00:52:09,920 my No, I want to go to philosophy. Do you hear me? 570 00:52:10,119 --> 00:52:13,400 Are you gonna kick me? Because of insecure? I want to go to 571 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,039 philosophy? All right? So stick on the topic at hand, and the 572 00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:21,519 topic the topic is about your metaphysics. I don't believe your metaphysics. You 573 00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:24,960 explain to me how good is being? Why should I accept your idea of 574 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:30,400 being? In metaphysics? About God? I'm not saying, just explain it 575 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,840 to me. I want to know. I have a different starting point for 576 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:37,039 what's possible and what God can do. It's called divine revelation. You don't 577 00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:40,360 want to go there's final lests go to philosophy. So why should are you 578 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,559 a self? Do you believe in self evident truths. No, do you 579 00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:47,280 believe in self evident truths? You said, you said God has being, 580 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:52,599 but God's being I have a different paradigm for you. You said God has 581 00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:55,559 being, but God's being is not his existence? Correct? For us, 582 00:52:55,639 --> 00:52:59,920 God's being is an energy. So I have a different position from you. 583 00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:02,840 So let's go to Let's go to philosophy. You have a different position. 584 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,880 Explain the position. I'm not No, it's not I'm not here to explain 585 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,280 the position to you. You came to debate, let's have a debate. 586 00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:13,800 You said you want to go to philosophy. Don't you want an explanation for 587 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,360 the position? Yeah? The Vine revelation says that God's God's God can appear 588 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:22,320 in time and space. God can, So do you understand that you you 589 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:27,760 destroy the incarnation with your stupid position. You need to extract, You need 590 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,840 to you need to expassionate your positions that I can understand in order for me 591 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:36,159 to know divine revelation is my starting point, and it tells me that God 592 00:53:36,199 --> 00:53:40,320 can appear in time and space. You're adding metaphysical like understandings to interpretation of 593 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:47,599 description and you're not doing that. Tonism is a pre subposition metaphysics. Yeah, 594 00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:51,280 we all do that. So what So you're just stating what everyone knows. 595 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,480 So what? Okay, we have Christians that are genuinely trying to listen 596 00:53:54,519 --> 00:53:58,960 to our conversation. So can we still start the tone policing the ad Enough 597 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:00,519 of your tone policing. It's not working for anybody, but you're but you're 598 00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:04,760 a small band of idiots. So do you want to talk about epistemology or 599 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,840 not? Small? Bro? Please? Just do you want everybody saying that 600 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:12,519 you're crash dude? The whole the whole chats laughing going to are you going 601 00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:15,679 to explain how good with the old chats laughing? Everyone's laughing at you? 602 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:22,719 No or not? Not? Bro, take a breath. You embarrass yourself 603 00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:29,480 by saying courting descriptures. Court descriptures up, let's go. You're just a 604 00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:32,119 fourty year old fat races. I look at that. I'm a fat racist. 605 00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:37,239 Look at the meltdown. The Thomas can't do anything, so I do 606 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,440 a few jokes about his about his roster voice, and he calls me a 607 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:44,840 fat racist. I'm not even fat. What are you talking about? Meltdown? 608 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,119 That you should check? Look, Oh I'm fat and good one. 609 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,440 Yeah, did the fourth graders give you that your position by reason? Yes 610 00:54:52,559 --> 00:54:55,719 or no? Uh? And that's why it goes to a pistemology, goofus, 611 00:54:57,519 --> 00:55:01,559 That's why it goes to epistemology. The dude literally can't pronounce his words, 612 00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:07,000 and he says stop starting still storing a coup A couple knocks me words. 613 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,519 But you still read and your frought weird. I bet you have. 614 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:22,000 It is embarrassing for you. Ah, there we go. That's what I 615 00:55:22,039 --> 00:55:24,199 reject. That's the essence of the point. That's what I've been trying to 616 00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:28,840 get you debate the whole time. It is that's what I'm arguing. That's 617 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:35,760 the essence of my argument. Yeah, I reject that position because it's not 618 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,800 true. You understand it's it's a contradiction. You see, it's a contradiction. 619 00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:45,559 Let's have that debate. Hold on, let me speak. You said 620 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,960 that never makes sense? Thomiss, He calls it Thomists. Oh my gosh, 621 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:59,199 what's you have a perfect accent? You are your mind? Your mind? 622 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,360 You got the pigeon? Do you got the pigeon? Braw child? 623 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,960 Because you want yeah, you get what you deserve. You won't deal with 624 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,559 the topic. Look at profile pictures. This is what he goes to? 625 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,840 Your mind? Oh your mind? What your what? They got down down 626 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:22,400 to pigeon? You speak the pug and you want to have the debate now 627 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:36,119 that you melt it down, you fat bro. You know there's over here 628 00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:43,119 crying. It's Jerry Curls dripping because he's crying. Do you want to talk 629 00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,480 Let's talk about why? Let's talk about a pistemology. Ready you ready to 630 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:51,559 talk about a pistemology? Are you ready to talk about a pistemology? You're 631 00:56:51,599 --> 00:56:54,039 the one that called me fat. I just made fun of your voice. 632 00:56:55,199 --> 00:57:00,440 Do you want to talk about a pistemology? Bro? Grow up? Do 633 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,320 you so you don't want to talk about a pistemology? Question? How is 634 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,280 that is? No? You already brought up metaphysics and epistemology. Let's talk 635 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:12,760 about that. We already so you're not going to do it. So you're 636 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,000 not going to go Let's move on to the question you want it? He 637 00:57:15,039 --> 00:57:19,280 won't do it? Deal with the actual argument. Do we have any actual 638 00:57:19,679 --> 00:57:27,119 Roman Catholics? Here we go? You fat bruel, you fat, fat 639 00:57:27,199 --> 00:57:30,079 racist. That's all that they have to go through. Yeah, really fat, 640 00:57:30,199 --> 00:57:45,159 super fat? You have fat? Risk is brawan go their breath alivee 641 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:53,599 Eric, I'm mute, Eric, you're here? You want to the debate? 642 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,559 I'm mute. Yes, yes, hello, Hello, I'm sorry. 643 00:57:58,599 --> 00:58:08,039 I'm sorry. I didn't know this you. Yeah, let's go. So, 644 00:58:08,039 --> 00:58:15,119 So I don't understand. I mean, I mean, how how how 645 00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:23,320 do you do you have an argument? Come on? Yeah? Oh yeah, 646 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:29,199 yeah, our lord's word to see what does that mean? What does 647 00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:31,719 that mean? That's your argument? So we're here talking for an hour about 648 00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:37,960 tomism and divine energies and the competitions and you don't want to argue Matthew sixteen, 649 00:58:39,679 --> 00:58:44,039 Yeah, because it comes down to that. But I don't come down 650 00:58:44,119 --> 00:58:47,400 to that. That's the lord to your arguments. Bro. Yeah, you 651 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:52,280 can make fun of of of How did you did? You barely get on? 652 00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:57,159 Bro? What's up? Fool? I think you got your top button 653 00:58:57,199 --> 00:59:00,960 a little too tight. Bro, there's not enough going through your brain. 654 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:07,039 Brothers barely getting there? Oh my god, here we go. Why do 655 00:59:07,079 --> 00:59:09,280 they have to repeat It's like they have to repeat my name. I don't 656 00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:14,920 get it. Do you want to have a discussion or not? You want 657 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:19,360 to? Okay? So you wanted tobate Matthew sixteen? What happens? You 658 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,079 want to be that? What are you? What are you Hispanic? Or 659 00:59:22,199 --> 00:59:31,800 I can't tell? Is that what it is? Are you Muslim? Okay? 660 00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:39,880 So you wanted to make Matthews and you hear me, Hey, bro, 661 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:45,800 you gotta put some more, put some more salts inside. Hello, 662 00:59:52,599 --> 01:00:02,719 h try to come out, come back out and come back in. Where 663 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:13,519 are the Roman Catholics at stopped quoting these scripts? I mean, mind, 664 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,920 by the way, please only quote them ifty in the pigeon. Stop quoting 665 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:23,519 the scripts. I've been what's up? What's up? All right? So 666 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:28,000 what we're speaking about? Because I just joined recently? So what you want 667 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:37,320 a debate about? Considering Thomism Thomas? Well, I mean today's whole topic 668 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,960 was about anything relating to like cappit Osians and trendy to your essen center distinction. 669 01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:49,920 But we can talk about the uh do you worship creatures? I do 670 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,800 not worship creatures? Okay? And do you mean like as and I worshiped 671 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:58,639 the like natural world? No? No? No? Like? Uh no? 672 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,840 Like For example, if God's glory appears in time and space and the 673 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:07,519 Israelites worship that and call it God. How is that possible on a Thomas 674 01:01:07,519 --> 01:01:19,679 position. I'm not at Thomas myself, but from what I think Thomas believe 675 01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:23,400 in, I think that would consider that he controls the entire universe, he 676 01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:30,280 reigns over the entire universe, and that his presence affects the natural world. 677 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:32,880 Okay, So what does Levitic's nine mean when it says that the glory of 678 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,880 God appeared in time and space, the divine energy and the divine fire appeared 679 01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:52,639 in the Israelites worship and call him God Hello? Could you repe that? 680 01:01:53,159 --> 01:01:58,199 My min Aaron lifted up his hands towards the people and blessed him. And 681 01:01:58,199 --> 01:02:00,960 he came down from the sin offering and the burnt off bringing the peace offering. 682 01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:04,239 Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle and came and blessed the people. 683 01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:07,320 Then the glory of God appeared to all the people, and fire came out 684 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,920 from before him. When all the people saw it, they shouted and fell 685 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,679 on their faces. How is the glory of God, which is not created, 686 01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:21,280 appearing in time and space to all of Israel and being worshiped when you 687 01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:30,119 don't worship creatures. So the glory of God appearing like that is considered a 688 01:02:30,159 --> 01:02:35,440 creature. No, how could it be. You just said you don't believe 689 01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,400 in worshiping creatures and God's glories, not creating that is not a creature at 690 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:45,719 though. Exactly, So it's not God's essence, right, No, it 691 01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:52,800 is not. Okay, So what is it? All? Right? T 692 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:57,119 Y? You got me there? I actually don't know exactly. That's why 693 01:02:57,119 --> 01:03:20,880 there's an essence iner distinction exactly. Eric, gonna try again. I'm mute. 694 01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:28,119 Were cooking DC tall mess far breakfiles. We're cooking and stripping the tormos 695 01:03:28,159 --> 01:03:34,760 down for de break fire. You are fight by the way, Eric, 696 01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,800 I'm mute. Man, we eating torm ass fall breakfast, said dare I, 697 01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:45,199 Like yeah, God, y'all remember back in the day, we used 698 01:03:45,199 --> 01:03:47,639 to have congo quinas that would call in and he whispered out like that. 699 01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:55,360 I wonder if that was congo quinas, remember him? Eric, what's up? 700 01:03:55,400 --> 01:04:04,320 You're here? I'm mute, h what's some more saults inside of the 701 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:14,280 morn bro? It ain't working? Eric meant they broed. It needs at 702 01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:17,000 least like three or four course more more assaults inside of the motem and then 703 01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:26,519 maybe the word bro Eric, bro what's up? I mean, there's little 704 01:04:26,519 --> 01:04:48,559 Torreso. What's up? Eric? What's up? Man? It's like Thomas 705 01:04:48,559 --> 01:04:57,599 are, like, don't they They act like they're women's saints that scream and 706 01:04:57,599 --> 01:05:05,360 cry and cut themselves, like freaking Margaret Mary alec Coque. There's like five 707 01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:10,760 or six trads defending that as like that's really based in trying to imagine defending 708 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:15,800 self harm and self mutilation as based in trad. This is idiotic. These 709 01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,079 people are I think these people are, Like I'm starting more and more to 710 01:05:18,079 --> 01:05:23,920 think that these are mentally unstable people and that you just can't interact with these 711 01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:29,760 people because they won't do anything related to the actual topic. They'll deflect into 712 01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:40,639 a million different things and then play victim and whine and cry. Go ahead, 713 01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:48,400 hey, Jay, So I was just gonna ask, like lists the 714 01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:54,679 Wagner thing, and we interacted a little bit on Twitter, and I think 715 01:05:54,719 --> 01:05:59,320 you answer my question. But what I see the relations of all positions being 716 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:04,519 is like the dietic thing that you're objecting to is just when you're talking about 717 01:06:04,599 --> 01:06:10,639 two persons, and I don't necessarily see an issue with that unless you're reducing 718 01:06:10,679 --> 01:06:14,920 it strictly to it being a diet, which isn't that kind of your objection 719 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,760 that you're seeing it's a diet. Well, relations of opposition would go along 720 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:24,000 with in the in the Augustinian sense, goes along with dialectics. And so 721 01:06:24,159 --> 01:06:28,760 if you begin your Trinitarian theology with the essence, as Augustine tends to do. 722 01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:33,280 No, I'm not saying he never mentions the role of the Father as 723 01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,719 the cause. He does talk about that in the Trinity, but the locus 724 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:42,599 of the focus is on the divine essence, and he starts with a Plutonian 725 01:06:42,679 --> 01:06:49,480 definition of what simplicity is. That then causes these challenges and these odd approaches 726 01:06:49,519 --> 01:06:54,559 to trying to make distinctions within that absolutely simple essence. And one of those 727 01:06:54,599 --> 01:06:58,719 would be to say that and he does a lot of these different speculations, 728 01:06:58,719 --> 01:07:01,559 and on the Trinity, one of them is he says we could maybe distinguish 729 01:07:01,639 --> 01:07:05,960 him by saying that one is not the other two. Father's not the son, 730 01:07:06,039 --> 01:07:09,159 not the spirit. Spirit is not the Father, not the son. 731 01:07:09,239 --> 01:07:13,239 Right. But the problem with that is that that's it doesn't tell us anything 732 01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,880 because all three of them share this kind of vague property of being not the 733 01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,440 other two. So it doesn't do anything to tell us who the persons are. 734 01:07:20,039 --> 01:07:25,760 The roots problem of this whole thing is when a Quinas says persona at 735 01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:30,360 rolatio person is relation. So the Roman Catholics, because of their advince simplicity 736 01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:35,159 position, literally think that the persons are the relations. But a relation is 737 01:07:35,199 --> 01:07:39,960 a predicate, not a subject. Remember subject predicate, right, So a 738 01:07:40,039 --> 01:07:44,360 relation is something that a subject has. For example, I am the son 739 01:07:44,519 --> 01:07:47,159 of my father, Right, that's a relation that I possess. So I 740 01:07:47,199 --> 01:07:53,320 possess a lot of relations, but none of those relations are who I am. 741 01:07:53,800 --> 01:08:00,960 They're what I have there, their attributes or their predicates. Jay is 742 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:05,239 five a bunch of these attributes, So it will never really so it doesn't 743 01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:13,000 actually tell us between the persons though, like the father, because I see 744 01:08:13,639 --> 01:08:16,039 I hear a lot of the same kind of language being used. So do 745 01:08:16,119 --> 01:08:21,840 you reject that identifying the father as the father in relation to the son like 746 01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,920 that. No, it's true, it's it's true. It's just that it's 747 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:30,840 just that the relation is not reducible to the person. The father is the 748 01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:34,880 father and his hypostatic park marker or property is to be the cause. So 749 01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:39,159 you can't say like it is equal to the relation. And that's kind of 750 01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:46,720 that's the objection. And there again remember remember Aquinas's famous quote is persona at 751 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:53,600 rolatio person is relation. And if you read Losky, he has a whole 752 01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,199 critique of this. He says, it makes absolutely no sense to call a 753 01:08:57,239 --> 01:09:00,439 person a relation, because a person is a subject a relation as a predicate. 754 01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,760 You have a real force of this argument here. I think you've like, 755 01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:08,159 it makes so much sense. It's just too bad that it can't get 756 01:09:08,199 --> 01:09:12,359 to this point. I don't they're not interested in they don't care. They 757 01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:16,359 just want to score points and find a gotcha and so okay, okay, 758 01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,119 yeah. And then lastly, so like this is my last question, but 759 01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:26,119 when you talk about God, can you just refer to the nature generally as 760 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,119 God? And I know bo Brandson's doctor bou Brandston talks about God being the 761 01:09:30,159 --> 01:09:35,000 father. But I think even I don't want to say no, there's nothing 762 01:09:35,039 --> 01:09:40,800 wrong. There's not. I mean doctor Branson himself talks in many places and 763 01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,319 we've talked about it as well. The word God is not a like it 764 01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:47,600 picks out different things. Yeah, God can pick out the divine nature, 765 01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:51,359 can pick out the divine persons and pick out the divine energy, and it 766 01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:59,399 can pick out human and angel messengers. Okay, so sure, yeah, 767 01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:01,920 I mean God has the nature and when we worship, when we worship God, 768 01:10:02,119 --> 01:10:04,600 listen, when we worship God, we worship the whole God. So 769 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:10,359 yes, But the difference is that we don't start with God as essence because 770 01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:14,720 God is not revealed as essence. He's revealed as I am, He the 771 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,000 person of the Father. That's where we start our theology. But then if 772 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:23,319 I was seeing this worshiping God the Father, then I would when we say 773 01:10:23,359 --> 01:10:27,439 we worship God, I would think it's incorrect to say we worship the nature 774 01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,560 because that seems to be well, I don't know, maybe I have to 775 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,119 think more about that, but yeah, we worship the nature because it exists 776 01:10:33,159 --> 01:10:38,079 in the mode of the person that has the nature. So oh, only 777 01:10:38,159 --> 01:10:41,560 in that sense, Okay, gotcha, gotcha? Okay, ship appreciate it. 778 01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:46,279 Sure, yeah, great question. Remember too, the relation in the 779 01:10:46,319 --> 01:10:54,680 Kappadocians is relation of origin, and even if you talk about contrarities like Basil 780 01:10:54,720 --> 01:11:00,560 did, it's still not arguing the Augustinian position of relations of opposition within an 781 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:04,840 absolutely simple essence. And the congar article makes this point. Even though congar 782 01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,560 thinks that Augustin and the Cappadocians are basically saying the same thing, which I 783 01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:14,680 don't agree with, he at least admits in the article that there's differences of 784 01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:19,640 approaches to the Trinity, and that's not even that controversial what we're talking about. 785 01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:24,039 I mean, the Vatican clarification on the Philly Oquay, not that long 786 01:11:24,039 --> 01:11:27,680 ago in the nineties or whatever, admits this point too. It admits that 787 01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:32,159 there's still tension between the Augustinian and the Cappadocian approaches to the Triad. They're 788 01:11:32,159 --> 01:11:42,319 different. One of those difference differences relates to the fact that the Cappadocians are 789 01:11:42,399 --> 01:11:46,319 very clearly monarchical and they stress that and they stress that the Father is the 790 01:11:46,399 --> 01:11:50,279 sole cause. That's why Wagner spends so much time trying to prove that there's 791 01:11:50,359 --> 01:11:57,479 another cause in the Triad. And that's why we had that whole talk with 792 01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,000 doctor Branson on this, because he wrote his dissertation on this topic. That's 793 01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:11,479 why. So for those who want to go deeper into the specifics of the 794 01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:19,680 camp of doc issue, which is what this goes back to, it goes 795 01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:32,600 back to it's right here. On distress discord is muda. I appreciate that. 796 01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:51,720 On demn stress discord is modda. Mm hmmm, dude, you're taking 797 01:12:51,800 --> 01:13:00,199 the agnostic calls. Uh primarily was talking about tumism. So does not really 798 01:13:00,239 --> 01:13:04,079 anything about agnosis as a mirror. Do you want to do it now or 799 01:13:04,159 --> 01:13:08,720 you want to call into another time? I mean, is it quick or 800 01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,520 is it a question? Or what are you wanting to do? Yeah, 801 01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:17,960 it's about pre sup Basically, do you have any presuppositions you cut out? 802 01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:25,319 What? Oh? Sorry? Do you have any pre sup presuppositions that don't 803 01:13:25,319 --> 01:13:31,399 have justifications? Well, I think everybody's worldview bottoms out at some point where 804 01:13:31,399 --> 01:13:39,439 there's no justifications. That's why I believe in paradigm level of circularity. So 805 01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:44,159 you do have some level of circularity at the base layer of your life. 806 01:13:44,159 --> 01:13:48,760 I'm saying everybody does, okay, because the only other option is some form 807 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:53,319 of foundationalism or self evidence, and I don't see how you can be consistent 808 01:13:53,359 --> 01:13:58,760 with that. So is it a little bit of special pleading that you prefer 809 01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:02,399 yours over someone else's due to the circularity happening? Now? It's not special 810 01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:10,760 pleading if my argument is that everybody has circularity, right, but you prefer 811 01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:15,479 yours over someone else's. It's not a personal preference, it's a it's demonstratable 812 01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:24,239 via the inconsistencies by the reduction reductio in the other positions. But is it 813 01:14:24,359 --> 01:14:30,439 part of your reductio, the fact that the other worldviews have circularity? No, 814 01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:39,039 it's that they contradict. Every other position contradicts itself. Yeah, at 815 01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:42,319 a fundamental level when we flesh out what their argument is. That's why it's 816 01:14:42,319 --> 01:14:45,840 a comparison of worldviews. Transcend augmentation is a comparison of rival world views. 817 01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:50,800 So the fact that I say that everybody at root relies on some paradigm level 818 01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:55,720 circularity, that's not the problem, because I said everybody has that problem that 819 01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:58,880 position. So how would we argue if that's the case. The only way 820 01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:01,960 to do it is to argue whether the positions as a whole are coherent, 821 01:15:02,359 --> 01:15:10,319 whether they have grounding, or whether they contradict on a fundamental level. Well, 822 01:15:10,359 --> 01:15:15,079 have you heard every worldview possible or have you heard every worldview that is 823 01:15:15,119 --> 01:15:18,319 held on earth? No, it's not necessary because every worldview of necessity has 824 01:15:18,359 --> 01:15:21,479 a few basic starting points that they have to begin with, and those starting 825 01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:29,680 points then determine the rest of the system. Okay, so like a materialist 826 01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:33,680 or an empiricist, what is the contradiction. Well, they're not able to 827 01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:39,239 give an account for the argumentation that they use as rank materialists, so they 828 01:15:39,279 --> 01:15:43,760 have to utilize things that are impossible on a materialist perspective, such as laws 829 01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:48,439 of logic, universals, mathematical entities meaning concept So at some point don't you 830 01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:54,840 reach a point where you cannot give an accountability or a justification. Yes, 831 01:15:54,920 --> 01:16:00,720 Hence why I said all worldviews at a paradigm level are circular. Right, 832 01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:06,920 But you just stated that empiricist materialists have this contradiction. But then you just 833 01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:11,039 admitted that you have your own. Yeah, paradigm level circularity is not the 834 01:16:11,079 --> 01:16:15,640 same thing as a contradiction, two different things. So then what's this what's 835 01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:25,359 the paradigm level contradictions for empiricists, Well, empiricism can't justify empiricism's presupposition that 836 01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,520 all knowledge comes through sense data. You can't find incense data the truth or 837 01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:31,319 the proposition that all knowledge comes their sensitive So that's just saying that they have 838 01:16:31,359 --> 01:16:36,800 a presupposition. No, it's a contradiction. The difference. It is a 839 01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:42,800 contradiction. All knowledge comes Listen, all knowledge comes through sense data. That's 840 01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:47,039 a proposition, that's the starting point for all empiricism. That proposition is not 841 01:16:47,159 --> 01:16:54,880 found in sense data. That's a contradiction. That's not circularity. Let me 842 01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:58,399 get Let me give you an example of circularity. Right, Like I can't 843 01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:02,399 use work, I can't define words without using words. So in linguistic philosophy, 844 01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:06,479 that's kind of an obvious circularity. But we wouldn't say we wouldn't say 845 01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:15,279 that that's a contradiction, whereas the empiricist argument is a contradiction. And explain 846 01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:23,079 one more time, Sorry, Why is that a contradiction that our information and 847 01:17:23,159 --> 01:17:30,039 data comes from our experience? No, the claim all knowledge comes through sense 848 01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:33,840 data itself is not found in sense data. That's the contradiction. If it's 849 01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:41,560 human knowledge, it won't matter. So listen the proposition. The truth of 850 01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:45,079 the proposition itself is not found in sense data. So I could say all 851 01:17:45,199 --> 01:17:51,439 humans are mammals and I don't need to study every human being to understand that. 852 01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:56,800 Yeah, but that's an analytic truth. That's an analytic truth, So 853 01:17:56,840 --> 01:18:00,199 that doesn't This is the analytics synthetic to say that doesn't tell you anything. 854 01:18:00,239 --> 01:18:05,359 That's why it's not relevant. And by the way, analytic truths are not 855 01:18:05,399 --> 01:18:13,279 empirical truths. I still don't understand why human knowledge cannot be gained through empiricism. 856 01:18:13,279 --> 01:18:16,800 You're not justified in making the claim on empirical grounds. The point, 857 01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,479 on a ground level, you're not justified for your beliefs. Again, you're 858 01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:27,960 confusing circularity with a contradiction. That's two different things. You're you were confusing 859 01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,239 and actually because you're saying my circularity is empiricism. But then when I point 860 01:18:31,239 --> 01:18:35,159 out that at some point you have that problem, so you think circularity and 861 01:18:35,199 --> 01:18:39,239 contradictions are the same thing. It's okay, good job, I'm saying you 862 01:18:39,279 --> 01:18:44,840 are because you're saying empiricism ultimate. First, before we proceed the argument, 863 01:18:45,039 --> 01:18:50,039 Okay, I think what you said was that empiricism. Well, first of 864 01:18:50,079 --> 01:18:54,199 all, you got it wrong that you said all knowledge. I think empiricism 865 01:18:54,199 --> 01:18:58,560 would be human knowledge. So hold on, is there other knowledge than human? 866 01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:01,479 Hold on and your is there other knowledge? The human knowledge? There's 867 01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:08,960 only human knowledge right now. There is knowledge from like other animals and stuff 868 01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:11,680 like that, but knowledge from other animals how do you know that as an 869 01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:18,039 empiricist? Oh well, as an all right, this is you don't even 870 01:19:18,039 --> 01:19:29,039 get as dude, We're done. I'm looking for the people who want to 871 01:19:29,039 --> 01:19:35,800 discuss Tomism, Roman, Catholicism, Papacy, Islam, Protestantism. It's not 872 01:19:36,119 --> 01:19:43,399 it's always it's not TAG Day, but whatever. Actually they're all related. 873 01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:46,479 So maybe it should be tag day because as we tried to do with congo 874 01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:51,439 Quinas there, we couldn't get him to go into epistemology. What's up you 875 01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:57,319 hear me? Yeah, okay, so I do have a Catholic question. 876 01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:04,279 So I think it was yesterday whenever your last dream was you mentioned Stigmata and 877 01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,479 I was looking. I was looking. I was doing a little bit, 878 01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:13,600 a little bit of internet research, and I found this guy before Francis of 879 01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:18,960 ASSISI named as Bert, who apparently died in six ninety five. Have you 880 01:20:19,039 --> 01:20:26,840 heard of him? No? I found it was like a Western right thing. 881 01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:30,279 Apparently calls him a saint. But I don't care what Western right people 882 01:20:30,319 --> 01:20:35,159 say. They're they're usually wrong. So well, it is before the schism. 883 01:20:35,239 --> 01:20:38,119 So I was just wondering if you knew that. Well, I mean 884 01:20:38,159 --> 01:20:41,039 again, I don't I don't have the Roman Catholic position that I have to 885 01:20:41,119 --> 01:20:45,720 accept all the stories about you know this or that legend of this or that 886 01:20:45,119 --> 01:20:49,760 ambiguous saint or whatever. Oh okay, well, I just wanted to bring 887 01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:55,039 that up, that there was an account of him. Is after he died, 888 01:20:55,079 --> 01:20:59,439 they found stigmata on his Well, how do we know that that's the 889 01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:02,840 same thing as the living stigmata? Yeah? And that's the other thing is 890 01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:10,479 that it's not clear what it meant. Maybe maybe grave robbers came and desiccated 891 01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:14,760 his body or something, and who knows what that means. But again, 892 01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:17,720 I mean, there's just it's just not it's it's foreign to the orthodox ethos 893 01:21:18,399 --> 01:21:26,239 that there's these you know, sort of tortuous self harm approaches. I've not 894 01:21:26,319 --> 01:21:29,399 heard this. I've never heard of it. So maybe somebody has some. 895 01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,479 And I don't think fasting in this kind of stuff is not the same thing 896 01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:41,439 as the idea of carving Jesus name into my body and then using the blood 897 01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:49,520 to sign a blood packed and then reopening the wounds, which she did. 898 01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:59,640 By the way, did you want to say something for other dig No, 899 01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:03,079 it's came in case a topic came up to Camment up. Yeah, please 900 01:22:03,159 --> 01:22:15,960 do, uh, please do if you can. So, so let's go 901 01:22:16,039 --> 01:22:21,439 back to this because people are saying you wouldn't debate the p Thomas, That's 902 01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:26,359 why you had to run to Morgaret Muriel Cookeway. So you need to understand 903 01:22:26,359 --> 01:22:31,119 that this is not optional for you as a Roman Catholic, not because Roman 904 01:22:31,119 --> 01:22:39,079 Catholicism dogmatizes everything in a in a so called saint's life, but rather this 905 01:22:39,239 --> 01:22:45,279 is fundamental to the Sacred Heart devotion. So if you let's follow the logic 906 01:22:45,319 --> 01:22:48,119 of this. So let's say I'm a Roman Catholic and I choose to not 907 01:22:48,239 --> 01:22:54,640 believe the divine revelations so called the private revelations to Margaret Mary Ella Cocuay. 908 01:22:55,600 --> 01:23:00,960 Well, according to Deuteronomy thirteen Deuteronomy eighteen, the book of Jared Amaya in 909 01:23:00,039 --> 01:23:05,760 Galatians, won people who are false in their visions and in their predictions and 910 01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:11,960 in their messages. If those visions are false, then their false prophets. 911 01:23:13,439 --> 01:23:17,039 If Margaret, if I reject her visions, that means she's logically a false 912 01:23:17,079 --> 01:23:24,680 prophet. If she's a false prophet, then the entire Sacred Heart devotion with 913 01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:30,359 which she's intimately bound up goes away. No Roman Catholic can consistently coherently toss 914 01:23:30,399 --> 01:23:35,359 out sacred heart stuff because it's bound up with her. So all of this 915 01:23:35,359 --> 01:23:39,560 stuff hangs and falls together, but they want to pretend that it doesn't hang 916 01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:43,079 your fault together, and again they pick and choose. Now does it really 917 01:23:43,119 --> 01:23:45,520 make sense to see if I can find that other guy's comment, because there's 918 01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:48,960 a guy who had a really great comment. Not I mean, this was 919 01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:53,399 another follow up comment, It's not the one I'm looking for. But notice 920 01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:58,920 that Margaret was upset by the fact that the wounds that she cut into her 921 01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:02,439 breast were beginning to fail. She then attempted to reopen the original wounds on 922 01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:08,560 more than one occasion using a knife. So this is self harm, which 923 01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:15,600 is wrong, it's demonic. But since she failed to do this, she 924 01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:24,760 then burned herself. I mean, who can't see that this is It's not 925 01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:32,319 holiness, it's mental problems and spiritual problems. I'm trying to find this other 926 01:24:32,319 --> 01:24:41,039 guy's comment because somebody had a really great comment about whether or not you could 927 01:24:41,079 --> 01:24:45,920 sort of dismiss these things. I don't accept these things. And he found 928 01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:50,880 a couple. Uh it cyclical references. Now, this is the famous ecstasy 929 01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:56,159 of Terresa, and everybody should know it's supposed to be spiritual rg asm. 930 01:24:56,600 --> 01:25:00,800 That's what this means because and all that romancathers saying, well, there's a 931 01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:06,600 comparison between married people and the Church in Christ. Yeah, not a sexual 932 01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:13,119 attraction for God. What's the analogy is the union? The union of a 933 01:25:13,159 --> 01:25:17,239 married man and woman is analogous to the union of the Church in Christ. 934 01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:30,319 Doesn't mean that we have sexual desires for God, you idiots. I'm trying 935 01:25:30,319 --> 01:25:33,880 to find that one. Guys, I know where it is. Let me 936 01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:57,520 find this comment. This is really good. Now, that's not it. 937 01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:15,600 Somebody found the freaking the people in cyclicals that like establish all of this stuff 938 01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:20,079 from her, And I can't find that guy's comment because no, I haven't. 939 01:26:20,119 --> 01:26:26,359 I don't care about this is not something I ever cared about. It's 940 01:26:26,359 --> 01:26:34,039 a Roman Catholic to go and read the encyclicals on Mary Ala Coquay or whatever. 941 01:26:34,279 --> 01:26:41,039 I don't care about that. But I can't find that guy's comment. 942 01:26:41,359 --> 01:26:46,079 So, but it was really good because basically it shows that like, it's 943 01:26:46,119 --> 01:26:50,760 not a thing you get the you don't get the right to like, Oh 944 01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:54,119 I don't. I don't accept that. That one I tossed out. I 945 01:26:54,159 --> 01:26:56,399 had another couple of Roman Catholics were saying, oh, you don't have to 946 01:26:56,439 --> 01:26:59,319 accept the saints. Yeah, you do. It's part of the magisterium. 947 01:26:59,359 --> 01:27:05,720 It's ordinary. I just hear him. Anyway. I can't find that guy's 948 01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:10,560 comment, but you get the point. Like, the point is simply that 949 01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:15,239 the Papa seed did a whole thing on this and said, yes, this 950 01:27:15,359 --> 01:27:24,840 is the ghostbusters in room. Rome have approved Margaret Mary Alacoque. So imagine 951 01:27:24,840 --> 01:27:27,920 saying that, well, I'm a Roman Catholic, but I just doubt like 952 01:27:28,119 --> 01:27:32,199 the most popular devotion next to Fatima of the last you know, several hundred 953 01:27:32,239 --> 01:27:35,760 years. I mean, come on, who would take that seriously? But 954 01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:40,520 then again, I guess in Roman Catholicism it's you make it into whatever you 955 01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:44,279 want it to be. So if you wanted to be praying in mosques or 956 01:27:44,399 --> 01:27:46,800 like Mother Teresa went and prayed in the Buddhist temples, which she did, 957 01:27:48,359 --> 01:27:50,479 you can make it either one of those. Make it whatever you want. 958 01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:55,479 You want to be a charismatic brother. The Roman Church, the papacy has 959 01:27:55,520 --> 01:28:00,479 accepted charismaticism. I mean that, what does that tell you while it makes 960 01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:04,479 the point that we've been making that these insane historyonic women were the charismatics of 961 01:28:04,520 --> 01:28:10,079 four hundred years ago. So it makes perfect sense that Rome would accept and 962 01:28:10,159 --> 01:28:16,159 approve of this ridiculous movement of pentecostalism and charismaticism from the papacy down by the 963 01:28:16,159 --> 01:28:23,760 way. All right, let's see he's next. If that guy's listening, 964 01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:26,680 or if you're in here, the guy who put up the encyclicals related to 965 01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:29,720 Sacred Heart, or if you guys in the chat find it, feel free 966 01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:45,239 to link that and I'll pull it up. Let's see, Sapphire got an 967 01:28:45,359 --> 01:28:50,560 mute? Hey, j Yeah, this is a I have one question on 968 01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:57,479 topic of the Tonism debate you just had. What could you I just think 969 01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:00,800 it'd be helpful if you were to like cite all the all the book listed 970 01:29:00,319 --> 01:29:04,279 or made reference to for future reference. I don't know if that's like a 971 01:29:04,359 --> 01:29:08,920 huge ask, but no, in relation to what energies or what what do 972 01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:13,000 you mean? Yeah, like the relation of opposition or like where Augustus mentioned 973 01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:15,840 it because he tried to do this gotcha at the end where he was like 974 01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:17,960 where did it? Gusta site us? Well? And I was actually correct 975 01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:21,039 because later on it's book five where he starts to talk about this, and 976 01:29:21,119 --> 01:29:25,199 I said, it's around the beginning of the second half where he starts to 977 01:29:25,239 --> 01:29:29,439 go into the trendy turning speculation. So he booted me right then, So 978 01:29:30,159 --> 01:29:33,840 I know it's kind of but that is correct. H con Guar talks about 979 01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:38,279 that. It's like book five and afterwards where a Gustine goes into these things. 980 01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:42,479 So keep in mind, like I haven't read Date Trinitate, like I 981 01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:46,359 read it like fifteen years ago, so I'm quit caring about all this stuff 982 01:29:46,359 --> 01:29:48,680 a long time ago. So but I mean, I think it's pretty good 983 01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:51,359 to remember, like off the top of my head, it's the second half 984 01:29:51,399 --> 01:29:56,920 of the of the treatise. But but yeah, you could so I would 985 01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:01,119 say you could read the con Guar essay where he he just laying out that 986 01:30:01,399 --> 01:30:05,159 it's not really that controversial, that there's two different approaches between East and West 987 01:30:05,199 --> 01:30:14,880 on the Trinity, and that the Augustinian Latin approach eventually tomistic approach originally eventually 988 01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:17,159 goes into a different direction in the Middle Ages, when it's you know, 989 01:30:17,359 --> 01:30:24,239 heavily tonistic and focused on all of the nuances of scholasticism, and the East 990 01:30:24,399 --> 01:30:28,840 didn't have that, which is why it was pretty funny when I said you 991 01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:33,239 think that, I asked Wagners, you think the that there's scolat that the 992 01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:39,319 Cappadocians are scholastics. He said, yeah, they cite Aristotle. Okay, 993 01:30:39,359 --> 01:30:43,159 So apparently the only thing that's required to be a scholastic is to cite Aristotle 994 01:30:43,279 --> 01:30:46,000 in his mind, so basically everyone is a scholastic. So this is what 995 01:30:46,119 --> 01:30:49,439 Roman Catholics do, where they'll just like bait and switch and like switch out 996 01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:54,039 the meanings of the words. And so if you agree to something, they'll 997 01:30:54,039 --> 01:30:56,199 say, ah, yes, well that word means this, So you agree 998 01:30:56,199 --> 01:31:00,479 with my position, you're reputed. It's they love to play these words concept 999 01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:04,319 of games. That's why his whole position was based on the assumption that relations 1000 01:31:04,439 --> 01:31:09,680 is identical to relations of opposition, and so it's a word concept fallacy. 1001 01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:15,319 Think about what they do with logos, right logoss The logoss right Emj's logoss 1002 01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:19,960 is the same as every other philosopher that uses the word logos, even though 1003 01:31:20,439 --> 01:31:26,239 no, I mean John One. Logos comes from the Book of Proverbs, 1004 01:31:26,239 --> 01:31:29,239 the Hebrew wisdom tradition. It's the second person, that godhead. It's not 1005 01:31:29,319 --> 01:31:34,920 the same thing as the logos of Marcus Aurelius and anyway the Stoics, So 1006 01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:39,560 I mean Plato uses logos, Does he mean Jesus? Of course not so 1007 01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:44,319 obviously they're not identical. But they play these bait and switch word games and 1008 01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:46,760 word concept fallacy. So that's why he had to boot me, because he 1009 01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:53,319 sensed that the he that I might have been right about him confusing relations with 1010 01:31:54,239 --> 01:31:58,279 this Augustinian notion of relations of opposition, which again is part of like the 1011 01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:02,680 absolute divine simplicity Philly oak Way to be dispute, and it's just simply not 1012 01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:09,439 used as the focus of even if they use the word contrarities or something like 1013 01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:13,840 that, like the focus of the Cavin Docians is hyposthetic properties and relations of 1014 01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:17,680 origin. And like a lot of these people would do well if they wanted 1015 01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:21,560 to really interact with a position to read some of the books that deal with 1016 01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:26,359 the critiques. For example, I would say you need to read Mystical Theology 1017 01:32:26,359 --> 01:32:29,600 the Eastern Church by Loski, I mean every Roman Catholic should at least read 1018 01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:33,800 that to have a basic idea of what our critiques are. Because Loski studied 1019 01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:41,079 under Jillson, right, the famous Thomas, so he knows and understands Thumism 1020 01:32:41,239 --> 01:32:45,239 very well when he writes his critiques of Tomism. And most of the arguments 1021 01:32:45,279 --> 01:32:48,760 that you hear me repeating and putting out there, almost all of them are 1022 01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:51,880 in Lawsky, I mean, and Lasky is not the only person to do 1023 01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:56,399 it. But you know, there are also arguments that you find in you 1024 01:32:56,479 --> 01:33:00,159 know, Steinyloy. But really the arguments go back to the cap Pi, 1025 01:33:00,159 --> 01:33:03,960 Dooceans, Maximus, and the Palamite disputes and synods. So I would say, 1026 01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:09,319 read the Triads by Saint Gregor Palamus, Read a Debate with a barley 1027 01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:15,600 Might by Palomas. The uh Palomite synods have all been translated now it's in 1028 01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:18,600 a book now by Norman Russell. I would say, read those. You'll 1029 01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:21,039 see that all the arguments that are made because, by the way, all 1030 01:33:21,079 --> 01:33:26,640 of most of I should say, many of Palamas's letters are also translated in 1031 01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:29,159 that book. So it's also going to be a key to let me just 1032 01:33:29,199 --> 01:33:31,680 get the books. Yeah, oh, thanks, man, I appreciate that 1033 01:33:39,079 --> 01:33:53,239 is your graduato stream. Oh no way, okay, now I'm I'm not 1034 01:33:53,319 --> 01:33:55,600 at my other house, so I don't have all my other all my other 1035 01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:59,560 books, so I don't have any lost Key books here, and I don't 1036 01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:08,680 have any church Fathers here. But so's there's really there's several really good books 1037 01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:11,880 on this, and I would say start with Losky is kind of an introduction. 1038 01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:15,279 I would read Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church. I would read Vision 1039 01:34:15,319 --> 01:34:20,000 of God by Lasky is really good. Dogmatic Theology by Losky also good. 1040 01:34:20,239 --> 01:34:27,279 But to get specifically into the energy's debate debate with the Barlamite, which you 1041 01:34:27,359 --> 01:34:31,279 can get I think for still like twenty bucks at s n u Y Press. 1042 01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:38,880 The Triads is a really good book by Palamas. That's a more fleshed 1043 01:34:38,960 --> 01:34:45,640 out, longer argument on this topic than the book that I'm talking about. 1044 01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:50,560 That's a translation of of Palamas's letters and all the Palomite Synods. Is Norman 1045 01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:59,199 Russell's book Gregory Palomas has the cast controversy in the debate with islam Documents relating 1046 01:34:59,239 --> 01:35:01,960 to Gregory palam Us, it's this orange book right here. It's really good 1047 01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:10,279 if you really want to get really technical. It's not an easy read, 1048 01:35:10,359 --> 01:35:14,800 but it is very relevant and proves that Palamas, tadd the essence inter distinction, 1049 01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:19,520 and then it's say real essence interdistinction, and that's teekon Pino's dissertation. 1050 01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:25,560 Essence and Energies Being and Naming God in Palamas is a good book. I 1051 01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:30,359 would read doctor Bradshaw's Aristotle East and West, which is also very technical, 1052 01:35:30,399 --> 01:35:34,199 but it will get into disputing Eastern and Western views of the Trinity and the 1053 01:35:34,319 --> 01:35:40,439 energies. Doctor Bradshaw's book that's a bunch of his other essays that's collected together 1054 01:35:40,680 --> 01:35:44,600 called Divine Energies and Divine Action is Necessary. It's a really good book. 1055 01:35:45,199 --> 01:35:50,199 And in the Church Fathers, I would say you should start with something like 1056 01:35:50,359 --> 01:35:57,000 Basil on the Holy Spirit and Basil against Unomius. Both of those make arguments 1057 01:35:57,039 --> 01:36:00,880 on the basis of the energies Basil Letter two thirty four. And one of 1058 01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:09,359 the key things that's overlooked with the dispute between East and West is Maximus's book 1059 01:36:09,399 --> 01:36:13,119 two hundred chapters. And the reason I always recommend they never read this, 1060 01:36:13,479 --> 01:36:15,479 They never look at this. But the reason I recommend the tuner chapters is 1061 01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:21,680 that the first five pages is Maximus saying that there's two senses in which we 1062 01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:27,399 can call God pure act. There's one sense that's valid and another sense that's 1063 01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:30,319 not valid. Roman Catholics do not make this distinction. So when they call 1064 01:36:30,399 --> 01:36:34,359 God pure act, they mean it in a reductionist sense that God is identical 1065 01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:41,119 to his essence as you heard congo quitas and here's chirpin or earlier. That 1066 01:36:41,199 --> 01:36:44,720 doesn't make sense, right and right. So he says that we cannot call 1067 01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:47,439 God pure act in his essence. Literally, the first five pages of the 1068 01:36:47,479 --> 01:36:51,800 two inter chapters makes this anti Tomistic argument. He says we can call God 1069 01:36:54,359 --> 01:36:58,680 first act or pure actuality in contrast to creation. And he says that you 1070 01:36:58,840 --> 01:37:02,640 have to have this do sense of naming if we're going to use terms like 1071 01:37:03,079 --> 01:37:11,439 first actuality or pure act because if you reduce God's the persons or God's essence 1072 01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:15,520 to pure act Maximus says, you'll end up in the heresy of Aristotle. 1073 01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:19,159 You would be it. You would believe in an internal dual principle of an 1074 01:37:19,199 --> 01:37:26,159 eternal actualizer actualizing something other than himself, which is why it's often again pertinent 1075 01:37:26,279 --> 01:37:30,119 to bring out the eternal creation challenge, the modal collapse challenge to the people 1076 01:37:30,119 --> 01:37:33,960 who argue this I sad. Yeah, Train more often relies on that sort 1077 01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:38,800 of thing too. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much all their arguments are are 1078 01:37:39,479 --> 01:37:42,920 this way. I have two more questions. You should go pretty quick. 1079 01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:45,920 But I would say also, another really essential thing to read, which none 1080 01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:49,039 of them have actually read, because they would they would know if they had 1081 01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:53,319 read this, is if you read on the Orthodox Faith by John Damascus, 1082 01:37:55,199 --> 01:37:58,159 particularly book three, So you have to make it all the way to book 1083 01:37:58,159 --> 01:38:00,279 three, which I don't think they do. They just quote. Mind they'll 1084 01:38:00,279 --> 01:38:04,159 actually read these texts. But if you read book three and when he gets 1085 01:38:04,199 --> 01:38:10,479 to section fifteen is where he takes all the essence energy distinction arguments and applies 1086 01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:13,720 them to Christology. But now of these people know anything about Christology, so 1087 01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:17,880 they wouldn't even understand why it's way more there's way more clarity about the energies 1088 01:38:18,079 --> 01:38:23,720 in Christology. And if you understand the essence energy distinction is the very thing 1089 01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:28,439 that Maximus argues in his disputation with Pearis, Right, that's you could get 1090 01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:31,720 that book Disputation with Pearis by Saint Maximus. I recommend that the whole book 1091 01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,640 is arguing the distinction between essence and energy, both in God and in Man. 1092 01:38:38,079 --> 01:38:40,359 And that's why there's two wills and two energies in Christ. So it's 1093 01:38:40,399 --> 01:38:44,000 the very way he refutes Pearis. So, yes, it has to be 1094 01:38:44,119 --> 01:38:46,560 a real, real there have to be really different, and that's why John 1095 01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:49,960 Vascus says they're really different. And then they want to haggle over the terms. 1096 01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:53,800 What was it mean to be really different? Are you saying it's parts? 1097 01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:57,119 No, it's not parts, No more than the Trinity is parts. 1098 01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:01,439 So let's look at fifteen and you'll notice right here at book three, section 1099 01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:10,560 fifteen, what does John Damascus start this whole passage with concerning the energies and 1100 01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:15,720 our Lord Jesus Christ. If he equates and reduces the energies to the essence, 1101 01:39:15,319 --> 01:39:17,960 all of these arguments fall apart and none of them make any sense. 1102 01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:21,600 It's as stupid the Roman Catholics. Then they think you're stupid. They want 1103 01:39:21,640 --> 01:39:26,199 you to rely on their quote minds and all this crap out of context, 1104 01:39:26,640 --> 01:39:30,159 as if you won't go and actually read John Damascus saying right here, observe 1105 01:39:30,279 --> 01:39:38,319 that energy capacity for energy or power potentia, the product of the energy that's 1106 01:39:38,359 --> 01:39:45,239 the effect, and the agent the person are all different. Here's John Damascus, 1107 01:39:45,319 --> 01:39:50,479 saying to you that the father's action, or excuse me, the God's 1108 01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:56,680 action to create is distinct from the divine persons. The effect of that creation 1109 01:39:57,199 --> 01:40:00,680 the world is distinct from the person acting creating. And clearly there's a difference 1110 01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:04,880 between these actions. Because did God rest on the seven day from creating or 1111 01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:09,680 not? Yes? He did. And this is an argument Palamus uses against 1112 01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:12,520 the barl Mites. He says, did God restaurant or is he still creating? 1113 01:40:13,560 --> 01:40:16,840 If he rested from creating, then not all actions are identical? Is 1114 01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:20,279 that something? But why will why won't they accept that? Because if they 1115 01:40:20,359 --> 01:40:25,800 accept that, the whole tomistic system tumbles like a house of cards. That 1116 01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:29,640 it is and that's why what that's why did you hear the discussion earlier with 1117 01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:33,079 congo Quinas and Leviticus nine? Was that a guy in the space because I 1118 01:40:33,239 --> 01:40:36,920 helped on like ago? Yeah, so he said, don't go to de 1119 01:40:38,039 --> 01:40:47,159 bai stock quote literally, stop vote philosophy. Why would I? Why would 1120 01:40:47,159 --> 01:40:53,880 I go to philosophy when literally you believe divine revelation tells us that God's glory 1121 01:40:54,039 --> 01:40:59,119 appeared in time and space in Leviticus nine to all of Israel? What is 1122 01:40:59,199 --> 01:41:01,960 that. Yeah, doctor downs that created effis. Oh, so you can 1123 01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:09,199 worship creatures the creator to fix is not a creature? Ond. Yeah, 1124 01:41:09,239 --> 01:41:13,479 that's crazy. Now this is this is how crazy they are. They are 1125 01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:17,920 in a cult that believes a system. And if you go to the challenging 1126 01:41:18,039 --> 01:41:23,560 the assumptions of the system, that's why they melt down. I say, 1127 01:41:24,399 --> 01:41:28,800 do they believe in potential at all? Or not in God? I see, 1128 01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:30,600 Okay, that's a big problem. If they admitted any of that in 1129 01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:35,800 God, then they would say that that in their mind, that metaphysically necessitates 1130 01:41:35,960 --> 01:41:40,079 that God has composed, God is changeable, God is passable, God has 1131 01:41:40,159 --> 01:41:44,079 parts. I see. I have one more question about two more, but 1132 01:41:44,359 --> 01:41:45,520 I think it'll be pretty quick. And but that, by the way, 1133 01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:50,199 is why I keep asking them if they will discuss epistemology, because they will 1134 01:41:50,239 --> 01:41:54,600 say that that all of that's not possible, and then I'm going to say, 1135 01:41:54,680 --> 01:41:57,399 well, how do you know what isn't isn't possible? Well, because 1136 01:41:57,439 --> 01:42:00,840 we know because of being in metaphysics. The the black guy that was on 1137 01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:04,720 here even said metaphysics is prior to apistemology. Oh okay, and I wanted 1138 01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:06,920 to ask him and talk to him, how do you know that, because 1139 01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:12,920 that's an assertion, that's that's where your your system starts with. I was 1140 01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:16,199 gonna ask, do you do foll follow up debates at all? Or what 1141 01:42:16,279 --> 01:42:20,279 do you mean like with uh, that Wagner guy, I think that was 1142 01:42:20,319 --> 01:42:25,159 his name, He won't debate. I've already I've been asking him for months 1143 01:42:25,199 --> 01:42:29,399 to debate dang, yeah, or like I know, it's kind he only 1144 01:42:29,439 --> 01:42:31,680 wants to have a formal debate on Philly okuay because that's the one thing that 1145 01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:35,560 he studied. Uh, and that's he already debated UBI on that. So 1146 01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:40,720 I'm like, well, tumism isn't built on Philly okuay. Tmism is built 1147 01:42:40,760 --> 01:42:45,279 on the idea that metaphysics is prior to epistemology. I don't believe that. 1148 01:42:45,399 --> 01:42:49,000 I want to challenge that, and they won't debate that. Yeah, yeah, 1149 01:42:49,079 --> 01:42:53,199 to me, that sounds crazy. I think epistemology would come before metaphysics. 1150 01:42:53,239 --> 01:42:56,319 But well, even if you thought that it did or didn't, like, 1151 01:42:56,760 --> 01:43:00,439 there still needs to be some addressing of the argument that it doesn't. 1152 01:43:00,319 --> 01:43:08,399 Yeah, that's just a it's just an assumption question first principles. M HM. 1153 01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,199 I would ask do you do Follo up debates with like, I know 1154 01:43:13,239 --> 01:43:17,279 it's kind of out there, but like Tea Jump or malpass Or, I 1155 01:43:17,359 --> 01:43:20,279 would not have another debate with t Dump. I don't think there's any point. 1156 01:43:21,439 --> 01:43:25,119 Yeah, and my last question is, I've seen you talk about black 1157 01:43:25,159 --> 01:43:29,840 hebrews Raelites for a while. Have you ever read into Rostafarianism And if so, 1158 01:43:30,079 --> 01:43:32,760 do you think that's like on the same tier of like bananas or just 1159 01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:38,000 craziness. It's very similar. In fact, I think Hebrew roots and black 1160 01:43:38,039 --> 01:43:45,920 Heber Israelite will have some ideological lineage from Rastafarian tendencies. I can believe that 1161 01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:49,119 because it's not es centralized religion is the weird thing about Rosty stuff, right, 1162 01:43:49,239 --> 01:43:53,159 And they don't really have dogmas. It's it's not really a dog a 1163 01:43:53,239 --> 01:43:57,720 position with like feel like you're not going to find the Rastafarian systematic theology like 1164 01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:01,359 that doesn't think there's no Russifar and heresies or Rustafarian metaphysic. It's just kind 1165 01:44:01,399 --> 01:44:05,399 of like a vague abstraction. Yeah, but I do think that some of 1166 01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:11,199 the ideas of like you know, we're the true Zion and all that, 1167 01:44:11,399 --> 01:44:16,880 I think that did influence I've just seen people arguing this in some articles I've 1168 01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:21,800 read, but I don't know that much about either Rastafarianism or any of these 1169 01:44:21,880 --> 01:44:26,079 movements other than the one livestream. I did kind of reading some articles about 1170 01:44:26,079 --> 01:44:29,560 it. I'd recommend you read into it because it's like they believe that like 1171 01:44:29,640 --> 01:44:32,960 Gone incarnated as the Emperor of Ethiopia. I'm aware of that, that Haley 1172 01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:39,000 Haley Selassie is the Holy Spirit. I'mware of that. You all right, 1173 01:44:39,039 --> 01:44:41,600 thank you, thank you for letting me on at a good time. Yeah, 1174 01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:45,159 some people say that that's not actually true. I don't know whether it 1175 01:44:45,279 --> 01:45:03,720 is or isn't. Are got on mute? Are you there? He's that 1176 01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:12,760 hard time connecting father deacon? Are either Yeah. I was gonna say. 1177 01:45:15,199 --> 01:45:20,359 After I graduated high school, I was in UH. I took some classes 1178 01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:26,840 a quick community college before I went to Thomas Quinn's College, and a friend 1179 01:45:26,840 --> 01:45:31,840 of mine gave me a book on roster Fororianism, and I was already in 1180 01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:39,439 the apologetics by then, and it was the dumbest thing I've ever like. 1181 01:45:40,119 --> 01:45:46,680 Yeah, it's really low here differend wi fi real quick over here on on 1182 01:45:46,840 --> 01:45:50,960 the live stream, so it'll come right back don't worry. It's not it's 1183 01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:55,399 not going anywhere. It just takes it a second to hop over to the 1184 01:45:55,520 --> 01:45:59,640 other. Uh. And usually if I go to this other this other band, 1185 01:46:00,920 --> 01:46:03,840 it doesn't have as many problems. So try that here, wa go 1186 01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:15,319 ahead? Hello, uh huh, what's up? Ari? What's up? 1187 01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:29,960 Hello? Yeah, what's up? Man? I can hear you. I 1188 01:46:30,079 --> 01:46:47,000 know it's sometimes it just doesn't work. Drew, Oh, hey, yeah, 1189 01:46:47,159 --> 01:46:50,159 Jay, what's up? Man? Hey? Uh yeah, I was 1190 01:46:50,239 --> 01:46:56,680 just curious. Can you can you explain exactly how Roman Catholics understand original sceny? 1191 01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:01,520 Okay? Well, I I would say that the more modern you get, 1192 01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:09,039 the more the Roman Catholic position just strictly on original sin moved closer to 1193 01:47:09,199 --> 01:47:14,359 the Orthodox position. So if you read like the Vatican Clarification on Limbo, 1194 01:47:15,359 --> 01:47:18,119 it discusses this in the first I don't know half of the of the essay 1195 01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:26,399 that the period from Augustine to Pope San Gregory the Great, that period was 1196 01:47:26,479 --> 01:47:32,079 really the dominance of the strict Augustinian view that all men are in Adam as 1197 01:47:32,119 --> 01:47:38,119 in an archetype, and so in that way all men share not just in 1198 01:47:38,199 --> 01:47:41,680 the effects of Adam Sin, but also in his guilt. I did a 1199 01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:45,760 whole podcast, a three hour podcast on Augustine and the City of God where 1200 01:47:45,800 --> 01:47:49,880 he discusses this topic and he makes it very clear he makes this Neil Platinum 1201 01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:54,000 type of argument that we're all in Adam as in an archetype, and that's 1202 01:47:54,119 --> 01:47:58,560 why we share that guilt. And that's because he had a misreading of Romans 1203 01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:02,279 five idea that all men sin because all men were in Adam and therefore all 1204 01:48:02,319 --> 01:48:06,439 sin. It's rather the Greek is different Meandorf has a good response to this, 1205 01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:11,119 where he points out that the effects of Adam sin come upon all men 1206 01:48:11,239 --> 01:48:15,159 because all men eventually sin, not that all men actually literally sin in Adam. 1207 01:48:15,600 --> 01:48:19,439 So after Augustine, the Roman Catholic Church, by the early Middle Ages 1208 01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:25,199 itself begins to soften this position, and they bring in the notion that no 1209 01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:30,039 infants are not automatically damned, like Augustine said, and Augustine clearly taught that 1210 01:48:30,079 --> 01:48:34,800 it's called the mass damnata. Everyone in Adam is a damned mass mass damnata, 1211 01:48:35,760 --> 01:48:43,000 a big ball of damnation. When they soften this with infant limbo, 1212 01:48:43,199 --> 01:48:48,680 they say infants are not guilty of any actual sin. The only thing that 1213 01:48:48,800 --> 01:48:54,399 they have is the deprivation of what Ramakatas call original grace. I think, 1214 01:48:54,439 --> 01:48:58,880 as Orthodox we could agree that all men have the effects of adam sin, 1215 01:48:58,960 --> 01:49:02,319 and one of those effects is the deprivation of grace or the life of the 1216 01:49:02,359 --> 01:49:09,520 Holy Spirit. So we agree there. But over time the Romancallity Church then 1217 01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:15,039 eventually even says and confirms that, well, there's infant limbo. And I 1218 01:49:15,119 --> 01:49:17,520 think around that medieval period too, when they talk about infant limbo is when 1219 01:49:17,520 --> 01:49:24,560 they also say it's because they're not guilty of actual sin. That's a specific 1220 01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:29,039 rejection of the Augustinian position, because Augustine believed that infants were damned if they 1221 01:49:29,039 --> 01:49:32,119 weren't baptized, and that's why the limbo doctrine is a softening of that. 1222 01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:40,640 Anyway, the Orthodox position does not argue that there's any taint. It's really 1223 01:49:40,720 --> 01:49:44,760 the only meaning of taint is of original sin, is that there's a deprivation 1224 01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:48,039 of grace. But we don't and never said that infants were damned or anything 1225 01:49:48,119 --> 01:49:53,520 like that. And also, the Augustinian notion of original sin is intimately tied 1226 01:49:53,600 --> 01:49:58,720 up with the Augustinian view of anthropology. So Augustine, because he collapses nature 1227 01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:03,600 in person the Trinity. He also collapses nature in person in human anthropology, 1228 01:50:04,199 --> 01:50:08,840 so all men are just manifestations of the nature of Adam. He doesn't have 1229 01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:13,079 a consistent distinction between nature and person and humans, and so he doesn't understand, 1230 01:50:13,119 --> 01:50:16,439 for example, recapitulation, that all of our nature is recapitulated in Christ 1231 01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:19,560 and that's why all men are resurrected, for example, instead of God. 1232 01:50:19,640 --> 01:50:23,960 He struggles with why the reprobate would even be resurrected at all. They have 1233 01:50:24,039 --> 01:50:28,680 no connection to Christ, which shows us that he doesn't teach recapitulation. So 1234 01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:32,000 the Orthodox view is pretty much all the fathers in the East teach recapitulation. 1235 01:50:32,079 --> 01:50:39,279 Since Aeronaeus that Christ recapitulates our whole nature. That means that what determines our 1236 01:50:39,319 --> 01:50:44,520 experience of the escaton as to either ill will or ever well being or ever 1237 01:50:44,640 --> 01:50:48,399 ill being is based on our personal mode of willing. So even though our 1238 01:50:48,520 --> 01:50:55,800 nature is restored, each individual person, each individual hypostasis, will determine their 1239 01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:59,479 experience of the escaton based on how they willed in this life. So even 1240 01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:05,319 though nature is restored, guilt is hypostatic or personal guilt is not attributed to 1241 01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:12,199 nature. So Roman Catholics still tend towards thinking that our nature is guilty, 1242 01:51:12,680 --> 01:51:15,399 even though they're not Calvinists and they're not even Augustinian, there's this holdover of 1243 01:51:15,479 --> 01:51:19,840 this idea. And that's precisely why they would even think that Mary would have 1244 01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:26,960 to be immaculately conceived for Christ to be born with the holy humanity that he 1245 01:51:27,039 --> 01:51:30,520 has. I was just about to ask a question about that exact thing, 1246 01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:35,000 actually, because like, like, because you brought up how Christ came and 1247 01:51:35,079 --> 01:51:41,560 he recapitulated our nature for it. So, but it would sound like from 1248 01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:45,000 a Roman at least from a Roman Catholic view that with Mary being born well 1249 01:51:45,119 --> 01:51:50,000 conceived with it like, you know, because it's essentially that she's you know, 1250 01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:55,359 not born with the stain of original sin, right, correct, So 1251 01:51:55,800 --> 01:52:00,399 by default, if Christ came to recapitulate, you know, our nature, 1252 01:52:00,119 --> 01:52:04,039 what exactly would that imply for the nature of uh, you know, the 1253 01:52:04,119 --> 01:52:08,239 theotokos first, So I guess I'm trying to understand their part as well, 1254 01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:11,159 at least from well again, So the key, the key element here is 1255 01:52:11,199 --> 01:52:14,840 that you know, we think she did die, she did if she experienced 1256 01:52:14,840 --> 01:52:16,880 the same effects of original sin as everyone else, which is which is to 1257 01:52:17,039 --> 01:52:21,960 undergo death. So right, So even though she was graced in terms of 1258 01:52:23,039 --> 01:52:26,800 the presence of the Holy Spirit from from out throughout her whole life, it 1259 01:52:26,920 --> 01:52:30,359 doesn't mean that she had to be preserved from death. And that's why they 1260 01:52:30,399 --> 01:52:33,560 will even though they have in the in the Uniate churches the feast of dormision 1261 01:52:34,079 --> 01:52:38,359 like dormsician means she she went to sleep, means she died. If you 1262 01:52:38,439 --> 01:52:43,079 die, that means you're a son or daughter of Adam. So wouldn't that 1263 01:52:43,239 --> 01:52:49,680 so if she was already born without that particular stain from their perspective, then 1264 01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:56,239 wouldn't that essentially like what wouldn't that in blood that she's not like she's not 1265 01:52:56,439 --> 01:53:00,720 necessarily of a human nature in the same is that we are, but rather 1266 01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:03,239 like some kind of like a I don't know whether to say, like a 1267 01:53:03,319 --> 01:53:09,560 divine or quasi divine nature. I guess you could say maybe. I don't 1268 01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:13,119 think they intended to mean that, but I do think that the reason that 1269 01:53:13,399 --> 01:53:17,920 you get these very odd, uh modern pushes within the Roman Catholic sphere for 1270 01:53:18,560 --> 01:53:23,960 Mary to be co redemptrics to be given these higher and higher and higher titles 1271 01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:28,920 ultimately goes back to these issues. Mm hmm, So like that would they 1272 01:53:28,960 --> 01:53:31,640 all? Do they also believe that like she was not because she didn't have 1273 01:53:31,760 --> 01:53:40,840 that staying that she's also not capable of sending either. I don't know what 1274 01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:44,119 I would say about the possibility or that if there's if there was any real 1275 01:53:44,600 --> 01:53:51,920 potentiality, but I just think they would say that there was consistent operative grace 1276 01:53:53,119 --> 01:53:57,000 or or whatever or sanctifying grace in Mary that she would not sin. I 1277 01:53:57,039 --> 01:54:01,239 don't know, okay, okay, because I've heard like mixed responses to that 1278 01:54:01,399 --> 01:54:05,600 from various people. I heard some say that like Mary, you know, 1279 01:54:05,800 --> 01:54:12,159 it was effectively incapable of being able to sin in herself because of like her 1280 01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:16,439 being born without that particular stain in their understanding of such at least. And 1281 01:54:16,560 --> 01:54:20,840 I guess they kind of had me questioning the notion because it seems like I 1282 01:54:20,920 --> 01:54:26,119 guess you could say, in at least by that very belief of the immaculate 1283 01:54:26,199 --> 01:54:30,159 conception for itself. I think even though I think that when people try to 1284 01:54:30,199 --> 01:54:35,760 say like old calfulars worship Mary, etc. I think they might I think 1285 01:54:35,840 --> 01:54:41,079 what they're at least trying to say when they say it towards Roman Catholics. 1286 01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:45,159 Would you say that maybe have more to do with the particular dogmuth the immaculate 1287 01:54:45,199 --> 01:54:49,079 conception, rather than its just purely being based upon like you know, the 1288 01:54:49,199 --> 01:54:55,720 veneration of the Blessed Mother. Yeah, I think it's more so those things. 1289 01:54:56,399 --> 01:55:00,439 And again I think ultimately the Maculate conception stuff is all about up with 1290 01:55:00,479 --> 01:55:06,359 the traces and the remnants of the Augustinian tendency towards that view of original sin. 1291 01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:11,840 Oh yeah, guys, good thanks man appreciation. Yeah, great question, 1292 01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:15,880 and I did do There is a fuller, longer treatment of this discussion. 1293 01:55:15,039 --> 01:55:20,439 Now Here is the famous Irena As quote about recapitulation, which again you 1294 01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:29,000 will not find this. I mean, it would be an interesting experiment to 1295 01:55:29,159 --> 01:55:34,680 see if there's any Latin fathers after Augustine that do believe in recapitulation. I'm 1296 01:55:34,760 --> 01:55:40,279 not aware of any. It could exist. There might be something that we're 1297 01:55:40,319 --> 01:55:42,600 just because there a lot of stuff still hasn't been translated, so maybe there 1298 01:55:42,640 --> 01:55:47,600 is something out there. But what you see that's very common in the East. 1299 01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:55,039 We find it in Cyril of Alexandria, we find it in John Damascus, 1300 01:55:55,439 --> 01:56:00,119 we find it everywhere in Saint Maximus, this idea that Christ recapitulates all 1301 01:56:00,199 --> 01:56:05,960 of human nature and that the redemption of Christ is cosmic and scope because of 1302 01:56:06,079 --> 01:56:12,880 Romans eight. This is a really strong argument against Roman Catholicism because even though 1303 01:56:12,920 --> 01:56:15,960 it might technically sort of be there, how would something that's so fundamental to 1304 01:56:16,039 --> 01:56:24,039 Christology and the Seven Councils be forgotten and lost in the West Because this is 1305 01:56:24,079 --> 01:56:27,800 related to the Heroine of Hades too, right, which Roman Catholics maybe they 1306 01:56:28,119 --> 01:56:31,520 technically confess it, but it doesn't really have any relevance to their theology beyond 1307 01:56:31,640 --> 01:56:38,600 just some sort of abstract speculation in some manual somewhere. Quite Yeah, I 1308 01:56:38,760 --> 01:56:45,079 was going to add concerning the imact conceptionally and Mary's free will from the Roman 1309 01:56:45,159 --> 01:56:50,479 Catholic position, they're probably influenced by Augustine. Yeah, and he's kind of 1310 01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:57,520 definition of free will that you find nature and grace, which is totally foreign 1311 01:56:58,439 --> 01:57:03,720 to Orthodoxy in terms of how we define will and choice and things like that. 1312 01:57:04,319 --> 01:57:08,199 So yeah, Augustin that I cover that in that in the three hour 1313 01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:14,359 august and Original Sin taught because Augustine's view of willing is very similar to Libido 1314 01:57:14,439 --> 01:57:18,600 Dominondi. So he thinks that fallen man is sort of even though he's not 1315 01:57:19,680 --> 01:57:25,560 he's not a Lutheran or a Calvinist. He thinks that the will of man 1316 01:57:25,720 --> 01:57:30,520 is directed invariably in two directions. It's either directed towards creatures and therefore sin, 1317 01:57:31,279 --> 01:57:38,640 or it's directed towards God. So there's this dialectical that's the only options 1318 01:57:38,680 --> 01:57:42,720 in Augustine. This is why, for example, he thinks that the marital 1319 01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:46,760 bed and marital unions have to contain some venial sin, because there's no way 1320 01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:50,520 that you could be enraptured with God if you're enraptured with your wife, who's 1321 01:57:50,520 --> 01:57:57,239 a creature. So he himself says that he struggles with understanding how marital relations 1322 01:57:57,279 --> 01:58:00,439 can be sacramental, and he says there has to in marriage be some benal 1323 01:58:00,520 --> 01:58:04,239 sin and sexuality. Well, how can you have a necessary sin in terms 1324 01:58:04,279 --> 01:58:09,520 of a sacrament. It doesn't make any sense. But it's all misunderstood because 1325 01:58:09,600 --> 01:58:15,479 Augustine has a dialectical view of willing. So he thinks that you will either 1326 01:58:15,039 --> 01:58:18,520 for God or for creatures, and that's the only only options. And so 1327 01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:24,359 it's a dialectical willing that's either for virtue and grace in God or sin. 1328 01:58:24,560 --> 01:58:30,039 That's it. So he doesn't have a conception of free will defined as the 1329 01:58:30,119 --> 01:58:33,279 ability to will multiple goods. So the rest of the Church, when they 1330 01:58:33,399 --> 01:58:36,159 talk about what it means to have free will, it means to have a 1331 01:58:36,279 --> 01:58:40,680 choice amongst options. So, for example, in the Garden of Eden, 1332 01:58:40,760 --> 01:58:45,239 Adam and Eve they had free will, there was no fall. So how 1333 01:58:45,279 --> 01:58:49,720 can we define free will as dialectical willing in terms of good or evil? 1334 01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:55,840 It's not so that Augustine and I imagine the Roman Catholics would fall on this. 1335 01:58:59,079 --> 01:59:04,600 She would never just like in the Escaton the Saints wouldn't choose yes bad. 1336 01:59:05,239 --> 01:59:13,640 Because Augustine defines a free will is a perfected will that only chooses the 1337 01:59:13,720 --> 01:59:15,800 good, which is God. Well that and he also thinks that you wouldn't 1338 01:59:15,800 --> 01:59:19,640 even want to will anything else because in the Beativic vision, your intellect would 1339 01:59:19,640 --> 01:59:31,760 be satiated, because he does teach basically Beativic vision. So for those that 1340 01:59:31,840 --> 01:59:45,000 are interested, here is the the talk that we did a couple of years 1341 01:59:45,039 --> 02:00:01,239 ago on Augustine and original sin. So we're looking for Rum Catholics principally today. 1342 02:00:01,319 --> 02:00:08,479 I mean, I will entertain or take Islamic arguments Protestants if they want 1343 02:00:08,520 --> 02:00:14,720 to chime in, but primarily we're trying to focus on tonistic Roman Catholic argumentation. 1344 02:00:14,880 --> 02:00:23,840 If we have any Catholics, Dion, Hey care, Yeah, there 1345 02:00:23,880 --> 02:00:30,079 we go. Okay. So I've been studying different arguments against Taoheed, and 1346 02:00:30,199 --> 02:00:34,520 I've heard you give a few arguments, and I've heard I've been studying a 1347 02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:40,760 few different articles too. So I was talking with a Muslim about does the 1348 02:00:40,880 --> 02:00:47,680 law possess eternally different type of like interpersonal attributes and qualities, And he was 1349 02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:53,960 saying yes, but he was appealing to like Cambridge Cambridge properties and things like 1350 02:00:54,079 --> 02:00:57,600 that. So I'm just curious, like, how would you argue against the 1351 02:00:57,720 --> 02:01:03,039 Muslim making those type of appeals? Would you even do that? Well, 1352 02:01:03,079 --> 02:01:09,119 I mean, you can appeal to modern philosophical argumentations. I guess I don't 1353 02:01:09,119 --> 02:01:14,239 have a problem necessarily doing that, But how does that appeal like really solve, 1354 02:01:14,359 --> 02:01:18,600 for example, the issues of the relationship of Allah to his attributes? 1355 02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:21,239 Right? So, if, for example, if you watch the the Bo 1356 02:01:21,399 --> 02:01:27,479 Branson Jake debate, have you seen that one a lot a bit ago? 1357 02:01:27,720 --> 02:01:30,399 I probably have to watch it again though, Yeah, I mean, the 1358 02:01:31,119 --> 02:01:36,600 debate then centers on if you say that Allah really is distinct from his attributes. 1359 02:01:38,359 --> 02:01:42,199 Then the question that arises is, Okay, are the attributes do they 1360 02:01:42,279 --> 02:01:47,960 possess a sayeity? Because Jake's argument was that you as a trinityranary consistent because 1361 02:01:48,399 --> 02:01:53,520 divinity equals a sayety. The father has a sayity, but the son lacks 1362 02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:57,479 a saety. Therefore the son is not fully divine. But doctor Branson shows 1363 02:01:57,520 --> 02:02:01,079 that not even you believe on your position and that divinity equals to siety because 1364 02:02:01,119 --> 02:02:06,399 the same argument applied to the attributes is refuted when Jake says that the attributes 1365 02:02:08,239 --> 02:02:12,560 do not possess the saiety. Right, and then so it really depends on 1366 02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:16,760 the Muslim that we're talking about, so right, and then Jake even seems 1367 02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:21,680 to try to bring up like an essence energy distinction argument for Tealheed. And 1368 02:02:21,840 --> 02:02:25,560 that's what like the Muslim I was talking do he seemed to do. He 1369 02:02:25,720 --> 02:02:30,319 was trying to say that a lot of attributes are extrinsic. Yeah, that 1370 02:02:30,800 --> 02:02:34,920 most of the as I understand, unless you're doctor Khalil and you're a Neil 1371 02:02:34,960 --> 02:02:41,000 Playton as Shiah. Pretty much the Muslims believe in a real distinction between all 1372 02:02:41,039 --> 02:02:46,239 in his essence, I mean between all and his attributes. Okay, so 1373 02:02:46,359 --> 02:02:50,399 what I guess what would be your your you know, what's going to be 1374 02:02:50,479 --> 02:02:56,439 your first argument against tao heed Hm. It's going to depend again on which 1375 02:02:56,479 --> 02:03:01,560 type of Muslim is arguing. But I mean, the first thing I would 1376 02:03:01,560 --> 02:03:05,479 just simply say is why should I believe that your position is in any better 1377 02:03:05,600 --> 02:03:12,960 position when your main argument is something that you yourself have to deal with and 1378 02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:16,479 have a double standard for. But I might, but again depends on which 1379 02:03:16,520 --> 02:03:19,800 Muslim it is, because you know, if they it depends on like, 1380 02:03:19,880 --> 02:03:23,399 do they believe in divine eminence or not? If they don't believe in it, 1381 02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:25,520 then I might go in the direction of arguing like, well, then 1382 02:03:25,560 --> 02:03:29,720 how do you know a lot at all if there's no eminence? Because it 1383 02:03:29,760 --> 02:03:31,039 begs the question to say it, because you know, the chron says, 1384 02:03:31,119 --> 02:03:33,920 got all, it's not like anything in the created order. So I'm gonna 1385 02:03:33,960 --> 02:03:36,760 wait and see how they if they believe in analogy or not. If they 1386 02:03:36,760 --> 02:03:42,000 do believe in analogy, then I want to understand how Jake went hardcore for 1387 02:03:42,359 --> 02:03:45,800 anthropomorphism, right, because he thinks that Allah has an uncreated foot and an 1388 02:03:45,880 --> 02:03:48,800 uncreated shin. But what does that mean? Well, you, he says, 1389 02:03:48,880 --> 02:03:51,199 you look at the context. Okay, Well you can say, look 1390 02:03:51,199 --> 02:03:55,039 at the context. What does it mean to say Allah as an uncreated foot 1391 02:03:55,079 --> 02:03:58,880 in the context? And he says, or an uncreated hand? Or what? 1392 02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:02,279 Oh, it's all a grasping What does that tell me? All a 1393 02:04:02,399 --> 02:04:06,600 grasps things. I mean, this is why Sam Chumun, for example, 1394 02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:11,800 always brings up with those types. Wait a minute. It says Allah descends 1395 02:04:11,880 --> 02:04:15,520 to you know, of he moves from the throne and descends to the heavens 1396 02:04:15,640 --> 02:04:18,960 or whatever in the hadiths? What does that mean? And Jake will say 1397 02:04:19,000 --> 02:04:24,520 it means what it says, okay. But to move and to descend means 1398 02:04:24,600 --> 02:04:31,039 that there's spatial, temporal, spatial relations and perhaps temporality. So space is 1399 02:04:31,119 --> 02:04:36,119 something other than Allah. Right, So if Allah has eternally descended from his 1400 02:04:36,279 --> 02:04:42,720 throne, then there's spatial relations which are also eternal. So now you have 1401 02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:48,239 Allah and space, So you have two principles that are eternal exactly. Yeah, 1402 02:04:48,439 --> 02:04:50,840 that's a good art. So it's more of an epistemological army man, 1403 02:04:51,119 --> 02:04:56,680 and I think that's right. Would you would you ever make any type of 1404 02:04:56,880 --> 02:05:01,399 arguments that the only possible god that can exist is a you know, triune 1405 02:05:01,439 --> 02:05:05,319 god, a god that is not only one person. Yeah, we argue 1406 02:05:05,359 --> 02:05:10,000 that all the time. Okay, do you have any videos on that I 1407 02:05:10,039 --> 02:05:12,640 can go back and because I watch all your lives? Oh yeah, I 1408 02:05:12,680 --> 02:05:15,319 mean I just put up one not too long ago. Why the trinity is 1409 02:05:15,399 --> 02:05:18,560 necessary? Okay, that's on dire eclips. And then you could watch the 1410 02:05:18,680 --> 02:05:25,680 critique that we did of Ed Faser. It's called like universals something critiquing Ed 1411 02:05:25,760 --> 02:05:30,039 Phaser. That video argues that I'll check it out. Thanks you great questions 1412 02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:44,079 fortnite. All his foot is orbiting in space. Well, remember, for 1413 02:05:44,239 --> 02:05:53,239 even Tom and Jake's tradition, the argument hinges on perfections, and clearly it's 1414 02:05:53,319 --> 02:05:57,920 more perfect for all uh to laugh than to not laugh. But I made 1415 02:05:57,920 --> 02:06:00,319 the point of saying, well, isn't it more to eternally laugh and to 1416 02:06:00,399 --> 02:06:03,359 laugh? Once on that line and forget it. And by the way, 1417 02:06:03,439 --> 02:06:08,239 if having a foot is more perfect than not having a foot, then isn't 1418 02:06:08,279 --> 02:06:11,520 having more toes on the foot more perfect than having less toes? You see 1419 02:06:11,560 --> 02:06:15,279 how silly this is? Literally this is the silliness of how they argue. 1420 02:06:15,279 --> 02:06:20,159 And do you notice the what's the commonality between say a Tomas in a Muslim 1421 02:06:20,239 --> 02:06:28,159 in Allah's perfections the metaphysical assumptions. The assumption is, well, we all 1422 02:06:28,319 --> 02:06:33,159 know what perfection is, and perfection has to mean that having six toes is 1423 02:06:33,239 --> 02:06:40,760 better than five toes. We all know that Allah laughing is more perfect than 1424 02:06:40,840 --> 02:06:45,880 not laughing. So there's this silly metaphysical assumption about perfections. By the way, 1425 02:06:45,960 --> 02:06:50,279 Thomas do the same thing. They have these metaphysical positions that they think 1426 02:06:50,359 --> 02:06:55,840 are self evident and first and primary, which is why they're all melting down 1427 02:06:55,960 --> 02:07:00,560 every time we ask them. Why are we supposed to think that that's the 1428 02:07:00,680 --> 02:07:03,359 case. You believe that your system is built on that. But what if 1429 02:07:03,399 --> 02:07:09,560 I don't accept the first principles of your system, Well, just grant me 1430 02:07:09,680 --> 02:07:13,439 my first piss. Basically, they're doing the same thing every other system does 1431 02:07:13,479 --> 02:07:16,680 of system building, which is, grant me my assumptions and let me convince 1432 02:07:16,720 --> 02:07:21,000 you of my position. That's what they do, Father Deacon, or either 1433 02:07:23,680 --> 02:07:27,720 let me tell you a really cool fictional story that I made up. I 1434 02:07:27,800 --> 02:07:31,159 don't question that fictional story because it'll lose the argument. Well, let me 1435 02:07:31,199 --> 02:07:34,720 play the Let me play the devil's advocate, Tomas, Why on earth would 1436 02:07:34,760 --> 02:07:40,239 you think that being and the good in metaphysics is a fictional story. You're 1437 02:07:40,359 --> 02:07:45,239 just being a coping ortho bro by daring to think that my philosophy of being 1438 02:07:45,399 --> 02:07:50,840 is a fictional story. You have to start with metaphysics. Okay, why, 1439 02:07:51,760 --> 02:07:58,079 Yeah, that's missing the point, right, They just assert? But 1440 02:07:58,319 --> 02:08:03,000 look, hey, in a position based on on papal authority worship, why 1441 02:08:03,039 --> 02:08:07,119 wouldn't we expect them to just assert authoritative, dogmatic positions that they don't think 1442 02:08:07,199 --> 02:08:13,239 have to be justified or given any coherence. And it's so strange that people 1443 02:08:13,279 --> 02:08:24,279 can't even grasp what we're asking for justification that that's and what do they do? 1444 02:08:24,439 --> 02:08:31,600 They just restate their story And I mean either it's low IQ or like 1445 02:08:31,760 --> 02:08:37,239 we have talked to, certain paradigms can be like operating systems that don't even 1446 02:08:37,279 --> 02:08:41,640 allow you to yes, to recognize what's being asked, so they can't process, 1447 02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:45,359 they can't hear the question that's being asked. Well, it wasn't that 1448 02:08:45,479 --> 02:08:48,439 the same thing, even tho it was a different topic. When we were 1449 02:08:48,479 --> 02:08:52,760 asking the Muslims, can you restate the hypothetical about the Qur'an's relation to prior 1450 02:08:52,840 --> 02:09:00,800 revelation And it's like their defense mechanisms wouldn't even let them reset the hypothetical. 1451 02:09:01,880 --> 02:09:13,720 Yep. And we've seen this happen before in what was it? First of 1452 02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:24,359 all, I noticed reading it in Eric Voglan where he's talking about uh tiny 1453 02:09:24,439 --> 02:09:31,159 mustache Man's Germany Stones Russia, like different kind of neo gnostic kind of systems 1454 02:09:31,199 --> 02:09:41,600 that were built in which remember it says that during the trials they said, 1455 02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:48,479 well, we couldn't disobey orders like that. Yeah, we weren't capable. 1456 02:09:48,520 --> 02:09:52,720 And I always interpreted that that they were unwilling, And Foglan says, you 1457 02:09:52,800 --> 02:09:58,399 know, they built into the system that that wasn't even a question. You 1458 02:09:58,960 --> 02:10:05,800 couldn't process that. And you even see this with like trying to translate words 1459 02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:11,800 after the fall of communism and stuff like that, that they had translators had 1460 02:10:11,960 --> 02:10:20,159 a really difficult time translating words that had anything to do with the individual because 1461 02:10:20,199 --> 02:10:24,560 there was such kind of a hive mind that they didn't have an operating system 1462 02:10:24,760 --> 02:10:28,319 that they can understand that. And a lot of this kind of goes into 1463 02:10:28,359 --> 02:10:35,840 the philosophy language that Quin was talking about with indeterminacy of translation. That doesn't 1464 02:10:35,880 --> 02:10:39,720 mean that, you know, there isn't some sort of overlap. And I 1465 02:10:39,800 --> 02:10:46,680 think what he was saying is that and kind of a coherence holistic sense in 1466 02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:54,439 terms of semantics, is that there's no what was Quin's position, he was 1467 02:10:54,560 --> 02:11:01,800 going against an arguing against the classical few of corresponds that words have kind of 1468 02:11:01,840 --> 02:11:05,640 a one to one they derive their meaning through one to one correspondence with the 1469 02:11:05,720 --> 02:11:09,840 property entity which they're referring to. And he goes through his whole kind of 1470 02:11:11,079 --> 02:11:20,159 critique of that and basically shows that no, there's there's a sort of indeterminacy 1471 02:11:20,000 --> 02:11:24,760 unless you're immersed within the paradigm. And he uses the Gavia guy right like 1472 02:11:24,840 --> 02:11:28,520 it's a rabbit running and that the point is there is no one to one 1473 02:11:28,600 --> 02:11:33,319 correspondence. It could you know, it's all kind of interconnected within the paradigm. 1474 02:11:33,680 --> 02:11:35,600 That could be ancestor it could be food, it could be all these 1475 02:11:35,680 --> 02:11:43,279 different things. And so it makes sense that if your paradigm has constructed such 1476 02:11:43,520 --> 02:11:50,640 that it has no concept to process some sort of reality or understand it, 1477 02:11:50,720 --> 02:11:54,159 it has no meaning. They can't a person can't understand it can't even understand 1478 02:11:54,159 --> 02:12:09,600 what's being said. Yes, suh, are you there fortnite? Do you 1479 02:12:09,640 --> 02:12:13,560 want to talk? Oh? Yeah, yeah it So I got a question 1480 02:12:13,800 --> 02:12:16,960 relating on your position on the essence and energy distinction. Right, so you 1481 02:12:18,199 --> 02:12:22,560 firm right, it's a real distinction between the essence and the energies. Well, 1482 02:12:22,760 --> 02:12:26,319 real distinction is a later term, that's a late scholastic post even Aquinas 1483 02:12:26,439 --> 02:12:31,319 term. So depending upon what you mean by that. If you think that 1484 02:12:31,479 --> 02:12:37,520 real means composition, partition or division, no, But if you if we 1485 02:12:37,680 --> 02:12:43,319 mean a real ontological distinction, yes, and so the orthodox response is that 1486 02:12:43,720 --> 02:12:46,720 the same level of distinction between the persons is the same type of distinction between 1487 02:12:46,840 --> 02:12:58,199 essence and energy. Are you there? Yeah? My bad, I'm back. 1488 02:12:58,359 --> 02:13:01,760 Okay, do you have like a like said definition you can give out? 1489 02:13:03,439 --> 02:13:07,399 I mean, the cap of Docians did all this without scholastic distinctions. 1490 02:13:07,560 --> 02:13:11,159 So what do you mean? The definition is that just as the father is 1491 02:13:11,199 --> 02:13:16,119 distinct from the son, so also the essence is distinc from the energy. 1492 02:13:16,640 --> 02:13:20,039 Right, But this this varies across interpretations. Right, if your Scotist you 1493 02:13:20,039 --> 02:13:24,680 would say that's simply a formal distinction. Which is widely different from a real 1494 02:13:24,760 --> 02:13:28,199 distinction, right, and so the way to different interpretations off that. So 1495 02:13:28,279 --> 02:13:30,880 how would you understand the real disis? Right? So that's why if you 1496 02:13:31,039 --> 02:13:33,600 fall, if you follow the debate when it gets to the point of Palamos, 1497 02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:39,039 the way that it would easily also just cancel out all the Scotist arguments. 1498 02:13:39,800 --> 02:13:45,560 The argument isn't ultimately about distinguishing the attributes amongst themselves, but rather what 1499 02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:50,920 do we participate in? So the Scotist could never answer what precisely we're participating 1500 02:13:50,960 --> 02:13:54,760 in. And that's why, quite literally, the debate with a barley of 1501 02:13:54,840 --> 02:13:58,000 mind just shifts right into what it is we participate in. So even if 1502 02:13:58,039 --> 02:14:01,840 you wanted to say these distinctions are quote formal, that doesn't do any good 1503 02:14:01,880 --> 02:14:07,680 to talk about what we participate in. So do we participate in a formal 1504 02:14:07,760 --> 02:14:13,319 conceptual distinction? Formal or conceptual? Formal? Formalities? The wall Scotas will 1505 02:14:13,319 --> 02:14:18,159 simply tell you formalities are not purely mental conceptions, right, I meant to 1506 02:14:18,439 --> 02:14:22,000 You're correct, I meant to say formal or conceptual, Like, it won't 1507 02:14:22,039 --> 02:14:26,279 matter how you catch that out, because the debate ends up being do we 1508 02:14:26,399 --> 02:14:31,399 participate in God's glory or not. Right, but I'm still okay, So 1509 02:14:31,560 --> 02:14:35,199 I guess you now, okay, So what would you say if I simply 1510 02:14:35,239 --> 02:14:39,239 say that it can saptual distinction is a distinction with a basis in the thing 1511 02:14:39,319 --> 02:14:43,840 itself or a basis in reality. Right, Why do I need to draw 1512 02:14:43,920 --> 02:14:48,720 a big onto logical division so to speak, between the essence? So just 1513 02:14:48,880 --> 02:14:50,239 you just you, just you just are you just said the very thing I 1514 02:14:50,359 --> 02:14:56,640 reject. So distinction does not entail composition or division. That's fundamental to art 1515 02:14:56,640 --> 02:14:58,600 theology. So the fact that I say that there is a difference between us 1516 02:14:58,640 --> 02:15:03,760 and and an energy does not until division. So you just imported the Roman 1517 02:15:03,840 --> 02:15:07,000 Catholic type of or the thing is though I'm asking you because you need to 1518 02:15:07,079 --> 02:15:11,920 divide the essence and the energies for you participate in my aspect. I know, 1519 02:15:11,119 --> 02:15:15,800 we don't have to know. That doesn't entail division. Distinction does not 1520 02:15:15,920 --> 02:15:20,720 inteil composition division, just like right, No, that's but that's just that's 1521 02:15:20,920 --> 02:15:24,920 okay. The just listen, how you participate in one aspect of a different 1522 02:15:24,960 --> 02:15:30,600 ontological being. It's not a different it's not a different ontological being because the 1523 02:15:30,680 --> 02:15:35,159 being of God let me, let me explain between the same being in the 1524 02:15:35,239 --> 02:15:39,319 same way that there's a discision between the father and the son. That's ontological, 1525 02:15:39,640 --> 02:15:41,439 right, But we wouldn't say that's an ontological distinction. Well, there 1526 02:15:41,479 --> 02:15:46,800 are not three beings, right. Ontology is not only related to the word 1527 02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:50,680 being. So again you're you're assuming your metaphors. Well, again, the 1528 02:15:50,800 --> 02:15:54,680 being of God is an energy for us, it's not his essence. So 1529 02:15:56,000 --> 02:15:58,960 you think being is simply the energy, right, You don't think you can 1530 02:15:58,039 --> 02:16:03,239 predicate that energy. You can't predicate anything of the divine essence. You can't 1531 02:16:03,279 --> 02:16:09,319 predicate the essence exists. The existence of God is also an energy. That's 1532 02:16:09,359 --> 02:16:15,600 the cappation argument is wrong when he said that that the glorious right. He 1533 02:16:15,680 --> 02:16:18,079 says that the energies in the essence of God are united in one existence. 1534 02:16:18,119 --> 02:16:20,560 Would you say he was wrong, Well, the way that they're united is 1535 02:16:20,640 --> 02:16:24,439 in the mode of the persons that have the essence and that the energy. 1536 02:16:24,479 --> 02:16:28,600 And by the way, if you recapass his essay, he shows that Scolarios 1537 02:16:28,319 --> 02:16:33,719 rejects the the tomistic view of saying that the distinction is conceptual. He says 1538 02:16:33,760 --> 02:16:39,280 it's a real distinction. Sure, I never said Sclorus was a thumbis thum. 1539 02:16:41,000 --> 02:16:45,959 My point is that the essence of what Scolarius rejects an Aquinas is what 1540 02:16:46,079 --> 02:16:50,559 we what I reject that there's no real essence in ury distinction. Right, 1541 02:16:50,680 --> 02:16:54,840 So have you risk would you understand him to affirm a real distinction between the 1542 02:16:54,959 --> 02:17:01,000 essence and the energies? No, I understand that for him, formal distinction 1543 02:17:01,200 --> 02:17:05,159 is his own category. Understand that, right, So if we take his 1544 02:17:05,399 --> 02:17:09,000 category, you know he's an actual saint, right, and we understand I 1545 02:17:09,040 --> 02:17:09,959 don't acception. No, I don't accept that he is. He's not a 1546 02:17:11,040 --> 02:17:13,719 saint. So you wouldn't accept laws is a saying, right? No, 1547 02:17:13,799 --> 02:17:15,920 no, no, no, I thought you said, excuse me, I 1548 02:17:16,000 --> 02:17:18,440 thought you said I thought you said Scots chill out. I thought you said 1549 02:17:18,440 --> 02:17:22,840 Scotus my bit. Yeah, scalauris my bit. There are very similar names. 1550 02:17:22,879 --> 02:17:24,319 I understand. Yeah, now we understand he is, Yes, he's 1551 02:17:24,360 --> 02:17:30,079 a saint. Yeah, yeah, okay. So would you say Scalaorius would 1552 02:17:30,159 --> 02:17:37,479 affirm a real distinction between the essence and the energies. He affirms the palamite 1553 02:17:37,479 --> 02:17:43,239 position, right, But you would not would you say that's a real distinction 1554 02:17:43,360 --> 02:17:46,399 between the essence and the energies. Yeah, because that's the whole purpose of 1555 02:17:46,440 --> 02:17:50,239 the whole teakon Po thesis. Well, yeah, so did you did you 1556 02:17:50,280 --> 02:17:54,920 read the t on p thesis? Yeah? I've read his being a naming, 1557 02:17:54,040 --> 02:17:56,959 Essence and Energy of God and then his second later work what are Divine 1558 02:17:58,079 --> 02:18:01,559 Energies? Right? Which is which must small a dissertation because I want to 1559 02:18:01,600 --> 02:18:05,200 talk about those two things there. So first of all, well, I 1560 02:18:05,280 --> 02:18:07,959 have a question for you though, right, Can I ask you a question? 1561 02:18:09,840 --> 02:18:13,920 Sure? Yeah. By the way, so if you've read that much, 1562 02:18:13,959 --> 02:18:16,200 then you've probably read the Capus essay right on essence energy, in the 1563 02:18:16,399 --> 02:18:22,239 in the in the Theology of Saying Gnatus Glorious. I've read the half half 1564 02:18:22,319 --> 02:18:26,120 the introduction, like the historical aspect. Yes, I haven't read his Well, 1565 02:18:26,159 --> 02:18:28,799 this is just a paper theesis, right, because I don't see the 1566 02:18:28,799 --> 02:18:31,840 relevance in his thesis. Well, this is just a paper from a Uni 1567 02:18:31,959 --> 02:18:37,799 eight arguing that huh. I know, yeah, capsure is a union. 1568 02:18:37,840 --> 02:18:39,879 I am more of that. No, but I'm saying that this is just 1569 02:18:39,959 --> 02:18:43,239 a paper where he makes the point that all those Scolarius likes a lot of 1570 02:18:43,280 --> 02:18:50,200 what's an aquinas The chief thing that he disagrees with is Thomas's position on equating 1571 02:18:50,280 --> 02:18:54,120 attributes with essence. Yeah, I'm aware. The thing is, I'm not 1572 02:18:54,200 --> 02:18:56,639 positing Thomas Aguainance's position though, Okay, so if I'm if we're going to 1573 02:18:56,719 --> 02:19:01,760 argue the Scotti's position, then it's going to turn because even Bradshaw says, 1574 02:19:01,159 --> 02:19:07,440 yeah, I'm not even positing the disposition. I'm positive in Scalorus's position, 1575 02:19:09,840 --> 02:19:16,959 but Scolaris's position is I would argue the Palomite position, right, and then 1576 02:19:16,040 --> 02:19:20,079 we go back to it's a real distinction, and then I'm simply asking, 1577 02:19:20,680 --> 02:19:22,000 and then we go back to the same topic of discussion. I don't really 1578 02:19:22,040 --> 02:19:28,440 see the relevance and talking about Schloris was on the Thomas. I don't understand 1579 02:19:28,440 --> 02:19:31,079 why you're trying to argue the Scolarian position. Then what's the point? Because 1580 02:19:31,200 --> 02:19:35,280 my right, if you read if we understand Schalorous right in his third tome, 1581 02:19:37,000 --> 02:19:41,280 in the sixth Tone, right, his commentaries on the Condoyos the barlum 1582 02:19:41,479 --> 02:19:45,600 quinas, Yeah, I can dinos. I pronounced things wrong, my bad, 1583 02:19:45,719 --> 02:19:48,040 but yeah, so we would understand. He specifically writes that a real 1584 02:19:48,079 --> 02:19:52,959 distinction between essence and energies between creatures is because of their deficiency, and that 1585 02:19:54,000 --> 02:19:56,760 does not apply to God. Right. And if we read later on in 1586 02:19:56,840 --> 02:19:58,360 this third tone, page two hudred and twenty six, he said that a 1587 02:19:58,399 --> 02:20:03,719 foam of distinct neither makes a division of reality or a composition. But it's 1588 02:20:05,319 --> 02:20:07,040 yeah, and that's everything I've been saying the whole time. That this distinction 1589 02:20:07,120 --> 02:20:09,920 does not intel composition division. That's what I've been saying, right, But 1590 02:20:11,040 --> 02:20:13,959 that would not apply for what's understood to be a real distinction. That's why 1591 02:20:15,000 --> 02:20:18,120 I said at the beginning that using the terminology real distinction is really confusing because 1592 02:20:18,159 --> 02:20:22,680 that's a later scholastic definition, that's post aquinas. So I said at the 1593 02:20:22,760 --> 02:20:26,600 very beginning that the level of the distinction is the same for the energies as 1594 02:20:26,639 --> 02:20:31,840 it is between the persons. Yeah, but that differs among positions, like 1595 02:20:31,879 --> 02:20:35,799 I've said. Okay, so let's make it really clear. Then, in 1596 02:20:35,920 --> 02:20:39,200 Leviticus nine, we have the manifestation of the glory of God in time and 1597 02:20:39,319 --> 02:20:45,360 space, and the Israelites bow down and worship it. What is that? 1598 02:20:46,520 --> 02:20:50,639 Sure? We say that's the energy. Okay, so it's not the essence, 1599 02:20:50,719 --> 02:20:54,920 right, Sure, But with your decent on A thirteen fifty one has 1600 02:20:54,000 --> 02:20:58,799 to be contemplated with it. What has to be contemplated with it? The 1601 02:20:58,959 --> 02:21:01,440 essence always has to be contemplated with with I didn't. I didn't say that 1602 02:21:01,520 --> 02:21:05,479 it's not contemplated with it. But you're not participating in it. Yeah, 1603 02:21:05,559 --> 02:21:09,879 sure, I'm simply saying that you need to clarify you're not but not participating 1604 02:21:09,879 --> 02:21:11,959 in the identity. Yes, it's not right. So you're participating in the 1605 02:21:13,159 --> 02:21:18,600 energy, and that's why the fourth of the Palomite Synods condemns the tomistic position 1606 02:21:18,840 --> 02:21:24,280 of Precoreos Prokeros. Right, but you wouldn't say that Barlum himself was a 1607 02:21:24,360 --> 02:21:33,719 Thomas. No. I think he was a Greek monk or monastic, or 1608 02:21:33,760 --> 02:21:35,920 I forget exactly what is. He might have been an aut