WEBVTT

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It's beginning to look a lot like
Saturnalia, that time of year when Rome

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celebrated the coming of spring, honoring
Saturn, the god of agriculture, by

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committing acts of debauchery and exchanging gifts. Roman soldiers and gladiators celebrated their patron

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god, Mithrist, the Zoroastrian sun
god. Other Europeans observed the flight of

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Odin as he flew across the land, deciding between his friends and his enemies.

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That may have hung holly and mistletoe
to ward off spirits, or decorated

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trees to honor nature. Some deified
the Byzantine bishop and philanthropist Saint Nicholas,

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who left treats inside people's shoes.
Jesus, if he even existed, symbolized

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rebirth what was probably not born On
December twenty fifth, the time for celebrating

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new life in midwinter, pre dates
Christianity. Pagan customs were instituted into Roman

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practice as the Empire subjugated its colonies. Whatever you celebrate, we hope you

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have a wonderful holiday season, and
we're happy you've tuned in call us because

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the show starting now. All right, all right, it is December third,

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twenty twenty three. Welcome everyone.
I am your host, Jimmy Jr.

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And joining me is the wonderful Tom
Benson. Tom, how are you

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doing today? Dantastic, Jimmy,
Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah,

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no, I was thrilled to find
out that you were going to be

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joining me. I'll tell you I
have been wanting to work with you for

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a long time. I came across
you. I think when you first did

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your Truth Wanted show. That was
back in probably April, So viewers,

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if you're interesting interested in seeing Tom's
first ever ACA appearance, you go check

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out. I think it was about
April seventh. It might have been because

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it was a week after I did
my first Truth Wanted. Yeah. Yeah,

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I'm not rememory numbers. Yeah,
don't be fooled. Don't be fooled.

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But I remember specifically, somebody called
in and they said they gave some

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kind of anecdote and you said something. They said something to the effect of,

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well, how do you rule out
ghosts? And you said, how

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do you rule them in? Very
quickly and very very astutely, And I

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thought that was excellent because I don't
know how you feel, but you know,

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a lot of times when we have
these calls. In these conversations,

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we always have to grant a little
bit of territory to the interlocutor, right,

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we have to presuppose that something exists. We have to kind of give

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them okay, assume this kind of
thing happened. Assume this thing exists,

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and then our conversation starts. I
don't know, I wanted to kind of

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ask you, you know, what's
your experience been, you know, in

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this in this realm where we kind
of try to get to the bottom of

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things. You know, usually when
you hear somebody say, let me grant

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you X, you know that the
next thing is probably not going to be

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the rest of your argument is also
true. For me, the reason that

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I got involved in the ACA and
listened to it is because, like I

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really want those like, hey,
if I'm telling you an argument and you

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say, let me assume everything you're
saying is true and then they can combat

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it in a different way. I
want to know about that. I want

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to get better in my thinking,
and so for you and I, we

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came to the show at a similar
time because there was a call out that

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probably a lot of people listening right
now were watching scene, which is like

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we need hosts, we need crew, come volunteer here, and being a

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five oh one c three nonprofit that
still stands, we want if you want

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to do this like what Jimmy and
I are doing, and if you want

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to help out on the technical side
and learn your broadcast skills and audio and

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video and all that fun stuff,
come on in. We got an open

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community and everybody's welcome. We're happy
to have you here. But that's you

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know, from from my side,
that's kind of how I got here and

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starting to have these conversations and conversations
with folks. Yeah, yeah, And

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on that note, you know,
we want people to call in and challenge

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us. You know, we want
people to and not in some kind of

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some kind of malicious way or negative
way. This is an arena for positive

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conversation and we have them all the
time, whether whether it's on the show

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and we can have an understanding with
somebody who disagrees with us or thinks completely

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differently from us, or it's you
know, off on the side often the

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the show, comments offen email or
maybe on some other kind of social media

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platform. I get engaged regularly,
and so you know, I want I

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want to bring people out of their
shells, get comfortable, you know,

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put yourself in the situation where you
can have that kind of conversation. And

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so that's a very good, very
good synopsis, Tom, and I appreciate

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that. So I want to getting
back to the crew and getting back to

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you know, our folks. I
want to send out a special happy birthday

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to one of our very own crew
members, maybe a day or two belated,

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but nonetheless got to show that love
and that goes out to Multi aka

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Maltese Falcon. Congrats on another trip
around the sun, and thank you for

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everything you do for the ACA.
We wouldn't function with you, or excuse

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me, we wouldn't function without you
and the other incredibly valuable crew members that

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run things behind the scenes. So
but Tom, we have another birthday coming

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up soon, or at least people
pretend it's a birthday, don't we.

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How are you spending the holiday season
this year trying to do something new on

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my part? Right, there's always
opportunity for reinvention. I feel like,

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you know, I've gone through the
cycles. I haven't been believed in any

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of the stuffs for a long time. Like maybe some of the folks who

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are going to call in and challenge
us here will be. But you know,

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you just see the rampant consumerism out
there and the unending, relentless pursuit

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of stuff and things, and like
doing these traditions without giving it another thought.

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Like you said at the beginning,
you listen to a lot of things

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that if somebody actually, hey,
why are we putting the missiletoe here?

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Hey? Why are we kissing under
it? Why is the tree here?

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If we really dug into those and
recognize the roots of them, it doesn't

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change that they can still be significant
and meaningful and purposeful to you. But

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wouldn't it be awful if you were
believing something for the wrong reasons? Wouldn't

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it be horrible if you know,
in an inadvertent way you were doing something

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that was actually against what you believed
with or thought to begin with? You

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have a background in history. You
want to understand things. I want to

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understand things from a host perspective and
from like the best thinking possible perspective.

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That's why we're here. So I'm
really interested to hear more about, like

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what you know about some of those
elements of Christmas and the holidays that have

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been stolen from the Pagans or other
religions and otherwise and like co opted by

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you know, the Christian Judeo principles
as they say. Well, yeah,

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so so let me first premise with
this with the fact that I am not

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an expert. I am not an
expert historian, but somebody who has some

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education and some training and definitely the
ability just like all of you out there

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listening to dig into stuff. Right, And so from what it seems is

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that you know, this is largely
a European holiday. And by the way,

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I did put we did put in
the chat poll on for you YouTubers

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that are watching a question about whether
or not Christmas is a Christian holiday,

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and we want to hear your thoughts
about that. But getting back to kind

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of the origins, you know,
this is really this really comes from a

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variety of different nature worship religions.
You know, there are German tribes all

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across Europe vikings who by the way, were not just one people. You

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know, they all were different,
scattered type of cultures with a love for

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religion or excuse me, love for
religion, a love for nature that developed

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into their own religions. And this
was not only common in those kind of

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tribal groups, but also in the
Roman Empire as well. So worshiping Saturn,

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the god of agriculture, who was
actually the I guess, the adaptation

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of Cronus, the Greek god,
because as you know, as we all

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know, or probably should know,
that the Romans just took all the Greek

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gods and renamed them and did what
they wanted with them. And isn't that

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convenient? And it's not an isolated
incident, right, So while the Romans

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were off taking traditions from other people, here we are the descendants of the

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European Christians who took our own traditions
from other people. Right, So we

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came along we said, hey,
man, this is a good idea.

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Why don't we do that. Why
don't we get drunk and celebrated every year

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and give each other awesome presents.
Uh sounds like a good thing to do.

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So, uh, we're still doing
it. We're still doing it,

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man, And uh, I plan
on doing that. I don't know how

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drunk I'm gonna get, but I'm
gonna give some people some good gifts,

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that's for sure. Hopefully I get
something. You know. One of the

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growing up as I was like,
hey, you know, getting into my

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high school years and be like,
I don't know that I believe in any

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of this stuff. One of the
criticisms I always got was like, yeah,

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but you you gave you know,
so and so a Christmas gift,

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and like, clearly you ate some
ham on Christmas even all that. What

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do you make of that argument of
like, but you said, hallelujah,

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you did the thing over here.
Certainly you believe to some degree. Mm

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hmmm yeah, So uh, why
should I stop doing the awesome things that

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make life so much fun, that
make it so valuable to be around family.

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I mean, just because you're not
religious doesn't mean you can't have customs,

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doesn't mean you can't engage in ritual
or be part of tradition. You

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know, we all have culture,
no matter what that is. There are

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there are cultures that exist out there
that don't center around to God, but

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then there are cultures that do,
and then there are some in between.

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Fortunately for us and people like you
and me, we live in a society

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where you can practice really all the
awesome stuff and you don't have to take

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everything. And so, you know, I don't mind being somebody that takes

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the really good maybe remnants of an
old tradition and leaving more of the nonsense

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to the side. Right, I
don't know how how you feel about that.

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You know what, what was it
in your journey? So so you

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were once a believer, I take
it. And then and then of course

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along your journey you decided to stop
certain things, right, but continue with

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others. I suppose what was it
for you? How did you differentiate?

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You know, what you needed to
kind of shed aside and what you were

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comfortable moving forward, probably like ease
of ease of just getting through the typical

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events that you have to do as
a culture. Right, Like I didn't

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choose whether or not I was attending
church until I was eighteen. It was

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I turned eighteen, and that's I
guess the time that you're allowed to sort

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of make these decisions, or when
you're living under someone else's roof that sort

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of deal. I don't know.
I don't know you examine on my I

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guess a little bit at a time, every time it circles around. Actually,

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you know what it's like with anything, because I recently, I've been

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biking with my family for a while
and it's just it's not it's difficult when

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you got young kids and like you
you have to go slow and all this

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fun stuff. I'm like, what's
a better way that I could get an

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exercise? So I turned to rollerblading
and I started research what rollerblades are.

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I did it all the time when
I was a kid, used to rollerblade

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to school all the time. So
I started doing my research. Six months

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later. Right, I've got three
pairs of rollerblades. I watch all these

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Reddit channels with all these people.
I'm constantly looking up. Oh, I

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got to look at this new skate
and this new skate. And I recognize

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this is a long story, but
it'll make a short point. There's a

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band called crwing Bin Right, so
jam band, three people, very good

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experts at their craft, bass,
guitar, drums, very simple but beautiful

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music that they make. Look him
up, folks, I don't know if

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we're allowed to do that AnyWho I
was. They don't typically sing, but

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they had a live concert and the
guy was talking and I noticed this Texas

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accent on him, Like, I
didn't think he was from Texas, So

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I just googled it. I'm on
Wikipedia and I'm reading. What I read

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about him is that he is from
Texas, so good, good job on

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me. But he has a Fender
Stratocaster. It's his only guitar. It's

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the only guitar he has. I'm
like, huh, do I need all

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these skates? Do I need to
have all of these different things and like

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follow all these people? Or could
I be like that dude that I don't

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even know his name, but like
I appreciate his music and just be an

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expert at one thing, one part
of my craft and shed some of this

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time and energy and effort just like
thinking about nonsense that doesn't matter. I'm

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never going to buy those skates.
I'm not going to learn that trick unless

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I'm skating with the skates I have
and practicing the tricks that I want to

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learn. Long story short, like
you can have those those parts of the

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journey, like those Oh this isn't
the first time I remember, like,

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Hey, maybe I shouldn't just buy
shit because I'm I think I'm interested in

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it and like just in this world. But I find you could isolate that

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to many things that people are passionate
about. Do you have a similar passion

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to to this gate? Well?
Yeah, I mean that is that is

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a really good analogy, uh,
to kind of talk about, you know,

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carrying this baggage that we carry around
with us and and adapting you know,

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kind of things that we're not even
really sure why we do them.

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Uh and and you know, trying
to really come into modern times and and

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develop our own our own personas you
know, who we are, and and

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kind of shedding some of that baggage. I would say that, yeah,

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I think I did have I do
have some something like that. I mean,

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I I did Brazilian jiu jitsu for
for a few years, right,

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and I just always wanted to buy
we wore GE's. It was called you

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know a lot of people look at
it and say it's a you know,

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kimono, which isn't necessarily the wrong
term. Just in jiu jitsu it's called

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a gee. Man. I loved
buying those. I love buying those.

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Didn't make me any better, you
know, I don't Just because I have

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all of these things doesn't get me
any any closer to where I want to

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be. Right, And so if
I wanted to take that analogy and kind

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of ascribe it to my journey,
I don't need really these these dogmas.

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I don't really need these beliefs,
these ideas that have been put put in

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my head really, whether purposely or
inadvertently, in order to be happy,

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in order to find peace, in
order to find meaning. You know,

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I can do that just by being
myself and knowing knowing who I am and

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where I stand. And I think
that my journey to becoming an atheist,

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uh, you know, kind of
exemplifies that. And that is why I

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am here right because I tuned into
the ACA a long time ago and I

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saw people having conversations had or heard
them having conversations that I didn't know was

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completely normal to have. You know, where where I was coming from my

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background, you know, we never
talked about this stuff. Nobody could talk

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about not believing in Jesus or or
you know, just foregoing some of the

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practices and ideologies that you're kind of
ingrained with as you as you grow up.

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So that's kind of where that's kind
of where I got I, you

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know, came how I came to
where I am. So I do want

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to kind of get to some calls. But before we do that, I

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just want to remind everybody that talk
Heathen, a product of the atheist community

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of Austin, is a five toh
one C three nonprofit organization dedicated to the

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promotion of atheism, critical thinking,
secular humanism, and the separation of religion

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and government. And we are a
live call and show. We have open

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lines, so get your calls in
at five one two, nine to nine

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to one, nine to two,
four to two, or from your computer

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at tiny dot c C forward slash
call THH and Tom. This is the

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point where we get to one of
my favorite segments, talk Heathen to Me.

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It's our question of the week and
we are gonna get into our top

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three answers. So last week we
asked all of our viewers God's creation won't

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be complete until it creates a bland. And so we have our number three

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answer from Green at Jason Green three
four three four. God's creation will not

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be complete until it creates a good
Christian banana argument. Man, that was

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that's actually a pretty funny argument,
you know. I I've never actually seen

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somebody explain the banana argument with such
great technicality. And yesterday it just kind

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of happened to pop up on my
TikTok. I was surfing through and there

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was a priest or some kind of
preacher not a priest it was definitely Protestant,

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but pointed out the ridges on the
banana. You know, the banana

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kind of has these these squared off
ends, and then kind of showed his

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congregation that we have these ridges in
our hands and they fit perfectly around the

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banana, and oh, my goodness, shit, that is evidence of God.

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If I've not heard any I almost
went back, but you know,

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it's not quite good enough. I
don't know what are your thoughts on that

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one. I'd never heard that before. It's amazing, but that's Hey,

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you know what, though we were
talking before a show, We're gonna be

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kind and compassionate to people call in
because we're really interested in genuine conversations and

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we will genuinely share and behave honestly
with the callers as long as you're the

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same way with us. You like
to thy good friends calling in having a

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conversation in front of an audience here, which is I'm not saying, hey,

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Jimmy, no, no, no, but like it's a instinctally yes,

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this sounds very silly, and if
you don't know, why, call

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in and we'll explain it, because
I agree it is a little silly here.

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But yes, that's a good one. No, thank you for that,

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you know. Uh yeah, real, Let's let's reel me back in

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a little bit because I like to
giggle and I like to point out silly

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things. But there's nothing silly about
yeah yeah, we're human, right,

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uh and and there's nothing silly about
kind of getting to the bottom of these

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issues. But number two Ronda fifteen
eighty seven. God's creation won't be complete

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it's till it creates another great fish
that will swallow all televangelists. Who oh

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man, yeah, So I I
don't know with Job a televangelist? Is

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that is that what we're referencing here? Did he gets swallowed by the fish?

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Yeah? Job, job but took
a fish? Yeah? Yeah?

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Am I huh right? Is that
is that correct? Check? Yeah?

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Somebody fact check me? Oh Johan, yeah, Johan, Jonah Jonah,

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And ladies and gentlemen. I promise
Joho, you're talking Toman were our fact

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checker. We're gonna take a fact
checker to the fact checker. That's fine.

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Yeah yeah, yeah, all right, so uh not Job but Job.

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You know, he withstood some some
atrocities. Man, I feel for

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the guy. Uh. Number one
looks like Brince The Media, fourteen eleven.

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God's creation won't be complete until the
DVD logo hits the corner of the

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screen. We are I don't know, are we living in a movie right

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now? I mean, are is
this all real? I don't know,

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Tom? Are you there? Are
you really there with me? I don't

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know. It feels like you're just
doing callbacks to all the previous shows that

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I've been on. Where they're talking
about is maybe we're in the matrix.

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Last when I was on too,
some was arguing about the whale right and

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in the saying it's not it's a
fish, not a whale, like that

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makes it better. Well, I
don't know. Well, you know what

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they say, that's a deja vus
and there must be a glitch happening right

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now. Somebody screwed up. Yeah
yeah, so uh Well that those are

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some great answer, great questions or
great answers to our question. I should

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say we have a new prompt for
next week, and that is make a

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new holiday ritual that people should adopt. Enter your best answer below in the

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video comments, and next week we
will reveal the top three answers. But

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let me ask you a new holiday
ritual that people should adopt. I think

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they should when there's family gatherings.
Uh. And you just like need to

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get the hell out of there,
go up the chimney, right so uh,

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you know, get out of there. Uh. And and you know,

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make your escape the way Santa did, right he pops in, he

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leaves gifts. Uh. And if
there's a way out, a quick and

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easy way out, you got to
get get out of there quick. I

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don't know what what do you think? What? What's you? What would

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your be be your ritual? We're
going to deal with a bunch of enraged

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callers on your ideas that that won't
work. Probably if you've ever tried to

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crawl out of a chimneys, you've
done chimney work. Have you've done chimney

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work? I have. I did
roofing for ten years. I've touched a

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few chimneys in my day. Yeah. Well, if Santa could do it,

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I just think why not me?
But who knows? Well you should

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know logistically why you can't. I
don't know what you look like physically beyond

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up here, but I imagine you're
not tight enough to get through the chimney

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on it up or down? Either
way, it's the holiday season, so

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I will show you my physique in
the springtime. Okay, let me get

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back, let me get let me
fix all the damage I'm doing right now.

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Oh my god. So yeah,
do you have a ritual though,

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do you have a ritual? Tom? Something to jog you know, give

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give some you know, inspiration to
our viewers. Yeah. So for I

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mean, I'm sorry to be serious
here for a moment, but ours for

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the kids and us is we're we're
kind of like going through the spring cleaning,

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but like purging and putting all of
these things that the strategy of their

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kids is what what gifts can we
share with others now that we don't use

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them as often. So about three
months ago we started putting things in boxes

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that weren't getting used, and then
we take them out starting on December first,

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we say, are any of these
things things that we could get rid

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of? And then we use that
funds for you know, selecting a few

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key items that might be good for
the new year, continuing that pigan tradition.

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Right, yeah, yeah, I
brought up with Yeah, that's great,

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that's great. I think you know, more of us need to do

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that, and you know, more
more of the people that maybe, and

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I don't mean to be critical,
but unfortunately I see a lot of big

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spending by Christian organizations and and and
other religious organizations, and uh, you

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know, maybe some of that money
can can just be used to help people

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because this is a tough time of
year for a lot of people. And

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on that note, I would just
like to remind everybody, you know,

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make sure you're checking in on your
people. You're checking in and your loved

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ones, letting them know that you're
there. But uh, yeah, great

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answer, great answer, And I
am anxious to see what our audience comes

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up with. Remember in the comments
section, give us your best answer,

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and tune in next week when we
reveal our top three. So before we

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go, yeah, yeah, go
ahead before just out of curiosity, what

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sized skater you? Oh? I
don't know. I've never gone skating.

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What you mean rollerblades? Yeah?
Yeah, I don't know. How does

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that work with shoe size? Oh
there's a bunch of different measurements. Do

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00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.279
you know how many centimeters your feet? We'll take this offline. Let's get

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to the calls centimeters? What am
i? Richard Gilliver, I I don't

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00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:30.079
what is this England over here?
We wouldn't have that the kind of likes

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00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.640
of that. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, uh yeah. We're gonna jump

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into calls. We do have open
lines, folks, but we all have

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we also have callers waiting. And
before we do that, I have to

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give credence to the wonderful crew.
Let it. Let us cut to the

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00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.680
crew cam and take a look at
all the people making this work all right,

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00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.359
Yeah, look at those lovely folks. Yeah, happy saturn Alia everybody

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00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.839
and great so so yeah. These
uh, these folks working hard. Uh

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you know, like I mentioned earlier, can't do it without them. And

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I made so many great friends.
I feel like this is my crew,

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00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:03.960
you know, like these are my
people. You know, people ask me

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00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.200
about my friends and like the ACA
pops up. You know, I've like

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really taken to all the wonderful folks
that are around here and just making this

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happen and helping me, you know, kind of share my voice. But

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speaking of voices, we do have
a caller on the line that wants to

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speak to us about the plastic reindeer
rule. Well, I would like to

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hear from Phil who goes by he
him in Texas, and Phil, if

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you're listening, you're on with Jimmy
and Tom. How can we help you?

353
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:34.880
Him? I trust you gentlemen are
both well. I'm I'm feeling pretty

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pretty darn good. Tom is my
first time hosting with him. He's got

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00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:41.359
some good energy. He's making me, making me feel all the love in

356
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.559
the room. And uh yeah,
man, just uh just ready to have

357
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:47.920
a great call. What's up Phil? Cool? Well, this will be

358
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a short call. First, I
have to say I should have entered last

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week because I think creation won't be
complete until we get a ketchup packet.

360
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:59.240
We don't have to open with our
teeth. Oh yeah, I mean we're

361
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putting things in out of space.
That's right. Yeah, we're putting things

362
00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:06.039
in out of space, and we're
still sporting ourselves with ketchup. So that's

363
00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:08.599
a good point, right, exactly. Well, when I was in college,

364
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I took a wonderful course called Church
State Relationship in America, and it

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was all about Supreme Court decisions that
addressed the church state issues. And that

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00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.839
wonderful teacher a national authority, and
he was a although he was an Ordained

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Disciples minister, he was a strict
separationist it came to church and state.

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So in nineteen eighty four. The
case was Lynch v. Donnelly and a

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crash scene antivity scene had been put
up. It was put up in a

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private park. It wasn't like it
was on the courthouse lawn. It was

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put up in a private park.
But they used taxpayer dollars to do it,

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and of course got sued. So
this was the I think this was

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the Warren Burger Court and the nineteen
eighty four this decision came down and they

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said, you can do a nativity
scene as long as you make it part

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of the larger cultural symbology of Christmas. So there has to be a Santo

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and Frosty and elves and reindeer and
so on. And interestingly, it was

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the first time the words kresh and
Nativity scene were addressed. Those words were

378
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used in a Supreme Court case.
So it was a split decision. It

379
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was five to four and they said
you can do that as long as you

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are inclusive of the of the other
imagery that is important to Christmas. And

381
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there were several cases since then,
but that was the one that came to

382
00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:26.279
be known as the plastic reindeer rule. Well, yeah, I mean,

383
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.079
I don't necessarily agree with that.
I don't know what your thoughts are on

384
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:34.599
that fill. I mean, what
do you think that putting a kind of

385
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:40.839
image of Christian folklore one that leads
to, you know, the belief in

386
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:44.440
a god or deity? Do you
think that is? You know, something

387
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:48.319
that is that is applicable to all
folks, even if we start including all

388
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these other things. I mean,
I feel personally, you know, if

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somebody said to me, I don't
know, you can keep your Poseidon statue

390
00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:03.240
here, if you put up pictures
of you know, Odin and Jesus and

391
00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:06.720
all that other stuff, it wouldn't
make me feel any better about my belief.

392
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:07.960
In fact, I'd feel like I
was being a little bit infringed on.

393
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:11.960
I don't know what are your thoughts
there. Well, you know,

394
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.480
I could have gone either way on
that, And as I say, it

395
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:18.599
was a five to four decision,
so four of the justices were absolutely against

396
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.799
the whole thing, the whole idea
of the Christian the image seen image is

397
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.480
part of the cultural tradition. It's
not exclusively Christian, it's just something that's

398
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:30.480
associated with Christmas. So I could
have gone either way on that one.

399
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.839
What was the fact part pattern of
like determining what is part of the cultural

400
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.279
tradition. You know, you know, it's been forty years since I read

401
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.359
the opinions on that case. My
understanding is they just said it had to

402
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:48.759
include other Christmas imagery, so it
wasn't exclusively religious. Well I don't know,

403
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:49.720
you know, I don't know,
I do know. I'm sorry,

404
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.559
go ahead, no, please,
I have heard. I just found out

405
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:57.480
about this today. I have heard
that Greg Abbott is fighting a court case

406
00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.960
right now regarding this at lower Core. He has lost, but I'm sure

407
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.559
he'll pursue it. And I don't
know the facts of that case, so

408
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:07.200
I shouldn't shouldn't even go into it, but I'm definitely going to look into

409
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:11.039
into that. So I just thought
that was an interesting piece of Christmas trivia.

410
00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.880
Important case, kind of interesting,
and I particularly like the idea that

411
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:21.799
it came to be called the plastic
reindeer rule. That's hysterical. So I

412
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.440
mean I kind of understand how,
oh sorry, Phil, do you for

413
00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:27.640
the folks at home, why the
plastic reindeer rule? Is it? Because

414
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:32.759
what does a reindeer pass the test
or not? Because it was a Nativity

415
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:36.519
scene, right, That's that's the
whole idea as long as there are other

416
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:42.039
Christmas y images up there can be
considered part of the umbrella of the cultural

417
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:47.079
notions of Christmas. Yeah, but
I guess how do you stop? Where

418
00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:48.880
do you stop? Right? What's
the end of all these things? Because

419
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.559
I've got my Festivus whatever, I'm
not dialed in on it that as I

420
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.759
should be, But I'm sure there's
traditions in there to me allow that.

421
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.359
I think the interesting thing I think
from the whole story is like, if

422
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.440
you're a fan of the establishment clause, generally I'm with you. But what

423
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:08.119
do we call people who, Jimmy, you're probably better at this? What

424
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:12.160
do we call people who view the
constitutions like whatever it meant at the moment

425
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:18.799
that it was written by the literal
language that was used, construction constructionalist?

426
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:22.400
Right, If we're going to be
that way, that's fine, as long

427
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.240
as we're consistent. And it seems
like there's a lot of God inserting himself

428
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.000
as we get past World War two
versus how things started with the establishment clause.

429
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.519
You would think that if there was
intended to be more Nativity scenes and

430
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.839
more christ in schools and like all
that, we would have heard about it

431
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.079
a few hundred years ago versus a
little bit more recently. Right, A

432
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.319
lot of these Supreme Court cases are
tricky. They're fascinating, but they can

433
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.440
be very, very problematic because it's
always a question of where do you draw

434
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.279
the line? Where's the line between
endorsement and and repression? And sometimes that's

435
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:56.759
a very difficult line to draw.
Where do you draw it? Me?

436
00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:00.519
Yeah, I'm I'm like my professor, I'm a pretty strict separationist, you

437
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:04.400
know. Okay, here's here's another
quick case. There were there was public

438
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:10.119
money being sent being given to students
for bus fair to get to school.

439
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:12.640
Now, what about kids who go
to religious school? Does giving them bus

440
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:17.839
fair, which is kind of non
religious, does giving them bus fair count

441
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.039
as endorsement of religion? And I
don't remember how this came out, but

442
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:23.039
a lot of these cases are like
what do we do here? What?

443
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.440
What? How do how do we
solve this? I mean, I'm no

444
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.519
lawyer, but you know it sounds
like a distinction between a public policy and

445
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:34.039
a private policy. And you know, public funds are not not delegated out

446
00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:40.079
or or yeah, delegated out to
private institutions. I mean the private institution

447
00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:44.160
wants to bust their children in.
I think it's up to them to be

448
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:48.640
able to do that and not rely
on public funding. That's just my you

449
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.839
know, bare bones knowledge of the
distinction between you know, the public and

450
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:57.119
the private sector. You know,
the schools have to be consistent across the

451
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:00.839
board with their students, regardless of
race, or gender or religion. But

452
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:06.079
from what I understand, private schools
don't necessarily fall within those same confines.

453
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:08.359
I mean, if they're a Catholic
school, then they can do Catholic things,

454
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.519
and and you know, if you
go to that school, well that's

455
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:15.160
part of the agreement. You know, you've signed up, and so you're

456
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:18.720
gonna do Catholic things with them.
But you know, they can't come into

457
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.640
the public sector and say, hey, time for Catholic things. And so

458
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.720
so goes the debate. So that's
how we end up with these these cases

459
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:30.160
where we are trying to tell people, look, you can't put the Ten

460
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:37.680
Commandments in a public building, you
can't put a manger a Jesus scene in

461
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.519
a public area. And so that
is not the only case, the one

462
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:45.039
that you mentioned. I read a
case this morning, and it's a little

463
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.039
bit of an older case, and
I don't remember the specifics, but basically

464
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:55.640
the ruling on that was, because
the manger scene is cultural and not religious,

465
00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:59.160
it can stay. They didn't have
to add reindeer elves. And I

466
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:03.279
was pretty shocked because I I would
say that a major scene of Jesus uh

467
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:11.160
is absolutely not cultural and applicable across
a variety a variety of worldviews, philosophies,

468
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.480
religions, et cetera. It is
strictly confined to Christianity. And so

469
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.680
you say, Jimmy to like those
folks who would say, it's it's it

470
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:23.519
uh, it's intertwined with the culture
that the Christian Judeo principles. Right,

471
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:27.640
you don't like the murder people,
not because of some some belief system that

472
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.160
you have that you've in mentioned on
your own, but because you were born

473
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.039
in a country that has Christian Judeo
principles and values, and that's what we're

474
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.400
being consistent on. How would how
would you push back against that? I

475
00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:41.240
I mean, I would push back
with the fact that I am I am

476
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:47.599
not Judeo nor Christian uh, and
you know, I am guaranteed rights to

477
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:52.519
not have to uh practice those things. And so I'm choosing not to practice

478
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.119
them. And then I would also
uh kind of state that, uh,

479
00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:00.640
while what what we are versus what
we c to be maybe different. Right.

480
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:06.359
So, uh, we started off
as a group of colonies that were

481
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.400
certainly Christian, right, but made
a document that clearly states we're not going

482
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.079
to sponsor religion. I would go
with the strict constructionist of that, you

483
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:17.960
know, the strict constructionist in me
says, look, we have this document

484
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:22.079
that culturally we are aligned with.
While you think that we're aligned culturally through

485
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.039
Jesus, I say, we're aligned
culturally through the Constitution. Uh. And

486
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.000
it might not be part of a
religious culture that binds us, but it's

487
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.359
certainly one that's administrative. Uh and
one that is uh you know, governmental

488
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:38.799
and legal. And so that's whether
whether people recognize it or not a cultural

489
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:44.680
guideline. Uh. And so yeah, Phil, you you are a repeat

490
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.480
caller, are you not? Oh? Yes, yeah, yeah. Uh

491
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:51.279
So tell me about what happened last
week you called in and what was that

492
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:56.440
conversation? Like, oh my god, yeah, yeah. Well I'll make

493
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.960
a real short A few months ago
I revisited my Church of Origin, which

494
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:06.039
is a very liberal, progressive Disciples
of Christ church and I a few weeks

495
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.319
later I joined that church because wonderful
people, you know, just just a

496
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:15.160
great, a great environment. It's
a it's community, it's a nexus for

497
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.839
doing public good like distributing food and
clothing and so on to people who need

498
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:21.640
it. And it's an opportunity to
learn and to teach, you know.

499
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.240
And as a former religion major and
an atheist, and they know I'm an

500
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:28.839
atheist, I can bring some stuff
into the church that they might not hear

501
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.359
any place else. And oh my
god, the hate veil I got in

502
00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:36.519
the comments, how dare you you
don't call yourself an atheist and go to

503
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.759
church? Well, what business is
that of yours. I'm not saying you

504
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:43.759
should go. I'm just saying I'm
going and liking it. But third atheists

505
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:45.839
really took exception to that. Yeah, it's interesting. Did you go?

506
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:47.960
Did you come up with that idea
of like, hey, I'm just going

507
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:52.039
to go because I'm searching for a
community and something like that, or they're

508
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.319
like, hey, come to our
church again, come back with you know,

509
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:58.400
it's not all Jesus y. We
just like people. We liked doing

510
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.119
helping out. The folks were unhoused. Well this is you know, these

511
00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:05.279
are these are people I went to
school with a couple of my former school

512
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:07.880
teachers. Go there. I just
kind of wanted to see what was going

513
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:12.240
on and if the church had changed
any and it's we just know. We

514
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:16.599
just a few weeks ago got the
got the badge for for whatever organization does

515
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:22.039
that of being lgbt Q welcoming and
friendly. And in fact, the minister,

516
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:24.359
the pastor, our new pastor a
month or two ago, said if

517
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.920
you're a skeptic and atheist as secular
humanist, come on in. You're fine

518
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:32.039
here. And nobody has tried to
recruit me or proselytize me. There have

519
00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:36.160
been no arguments and there's been nothing
like that. It's just a bunch of

520
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:40.119
really good people who I enjoy being
around. What what kind of Vieway's like,

521
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.279
Oh well here's what they talk about. We did, Yeah, several

522
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:51.759
weeks in a row, Pastor Russell
did positive messages in Disney animated films.

523
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.000
So it's it's pretty secular. It's
a pretty secular. There's no hell roomstone,

524
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:58.880
there's no what kind of churches this
I'm sorry, go ahead, yeah,

525
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:00.440
yeah, what kind of churches?
Of Christ. Okay, well,

526
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:06.759
Disciples of Christ is is we split
off from the Church of Christ a long

527
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.360
time ago. We kind of with
Alexander Campbell and can't remember the other guy's

528
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:13.239
name, and we went liberal and
they went conservative. So this is if

529
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:17.320
you're familiar with with Texas Christian University, that's a Disciples university. Well,

530
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:21.559
very very well, do you very
liberal? In fact? Go ahead,

531
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.000
please continue, Please continue, Phil
We have a little bit of a delay,

532
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:30.000
so I keep thinking that you're done
and I start talking, but I'm

533
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.159
gonna give it to you. You
have the mic. Well, some years

534
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:35.400
ago, forty years ago, fifty
years ago, when I was a teenager,

535
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.840
the church split. We had some
fundagelicals come in and kind of take

536
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:44.239
over, and it crippled the church
for years, for years, And sadly,

537
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.039
I was a teenager and I was
on the wrong side of that fight.

538
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.239
But I quickly woke up and came
to my senses and realized, I'm

539
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:52.800
just believing this stuff because somebody told
it to me, you know, and

540
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:57.559
I'm a science buff, so I
didn't I didn't buy the flood or you

541
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:00.039
know, anything like that. Even
back then. But at that point of

542
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:05.519
Christian minister I think his name is
wad Dale said the disciples are such that

543
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.679
if you want to go there and
you want to believe Jesus Christ is Son

544
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:10.880
of God, my savior, that's
fine. If you also want to believe

545
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:15.519
Jesus Christ was a cool guy,
he's my personal hero, that's fine too.

546
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.920
Well. So I know what it's
like to get I don't want to

547
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:22.559
say eviscerated in the comments, but
I am. I am checked by some

548
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:25.760
callers from time to time, and
you know, I had an experience of

549
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:29.880
my own not too long ago.
But why and I'll get into that a

550
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.840
little while, But Phil, why
do you think that you're getting so much

551
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.000
pushback? What is it that people
have a problem with you going to church?

552
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.360
Because, in my opinion, with
the trends in church attendance lately,

553
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:46.079
I would say that you should probably
be welcome. I would I would imagine

554
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:51.119
that any clergy member would be happy
to have a new member of the congregation

555
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:55.639
congregation, excuse me. And for
for some followers to kind of push back

556
00:35:55.719 --> 00:36:00.519
on the idea that somebody knew wants
to maybe come in and I don't hear

557
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:02.880
the word be part of things?
Donate? Uh? Is a little bit

558
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:07.719
shocking to me. We are seeing
concessions, concessions be made kind of across

559
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:13.079
uh Christian organizations. You know,
the Pope in recent months has come out

560
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:17.480
and started, uh maybe professing we
could be wrong. We've seen other churches

561
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:22.559
that take a little bit more of
a liberal stance also become affiliated with the

562
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:29.320
LGBTQ community, becoming more welcome,
uh even hosting weddings between same sex couples,

563
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:31.800
which I think is a great thing. Uh. So that's all all

564
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:37.360
that to say, you know,
we see the church making changes. I

565
00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:39.519
would say that they're making these changes
because, well, they need to reach

566
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:44.960
more people. They have to just
adapt to the time. And I feel

567
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:50.360
like your your purpose, your uh
you know, integration might fit along that

568
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.480
line. So why do you think
that, you know, people have a

569
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:55.559
problem with that. It's it's a
symptom of binary thinking. There's there's every

570
00:36:55.679 --> 00:37:01.519
point on the spectrum represented by religious
and non religious belief a thousand there's a

571
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:06.880
thousand different stories, but people tend
to think in binary all Christians bad,

572
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.719
all non Christians good, And it's
simply not that simple. Yeah, yeah,

573
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:15.760
well I will tell you so.
Well, first of all, was

574
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:19.039
it your church members that were that
were angry or was it just like did

575
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:22.800
you get that from church? Did
you feel welcome? Or were they just

576
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:24.920
as angry as some of the people
in the comments. I got this from

577
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:29.000
atheists. The atheists were telling me, oh, you're a trader. You

578
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:30.199
you don't know what you're doing.
You know, why do you why would

579
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:34.480
you bother? Et cetera. City
thought I explained that pretty well, we're

580
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:37.559
not very good, very good at
that. You know. It's like it's

581
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:42.639
we're talking before the show. It's
really difficult to have like a real cohesive

582
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:45.280
unit when you're like, all right, what are our values? We don't

583
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.440
believe the one thing? What about
everything else? It's like all over the

584
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.480
board. Now there is no like
atheists and a lot of people look at

585
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:55.280
it as just one religion. And
you could look at the angry atheists and

586
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:59.119
say that's how they are. In
fact, some of the folks here might

587
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:02.119
know are are call Manuel. I've
been talking to a manual, and I

588
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:07.559
think a manual probably has a similar
view that others do, which is like

589
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:12.199
a man atheists think this way about
this thing that because I've heard one say

590
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:15.360
that, and we do the same
thing. Christians think this way about this

591
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:17.440
sing Oh no, I don't believe
in the freaking boat and all that stuff.

592
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:20.960
I believe in the cross and all
that stuff. Like I know that

593
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.440
there are so many different on the
spectrum of belief. It's all over the

594
00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:28.079
place. And that's why shows like
this are important and conversations like this are

595
00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:30.800
important. Be like, what do
you specifically believe about that thing? And

596
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:34.719
how did you get there? And
if we can understand that and maybe get

597
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:37.039
some aha moments for ourselves, That's
what I'm all after here. We can

598
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.960
do it for the listener. That's
great too. Yeah, no, Phil,

599
00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:43.519
I want to at this small church, a small come, sorry,

600
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:45.760
go ahead, Nope, nope,
flows your at this small church. And

601
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.000
this is only you know, typically
on a Sunday morning, we'll have one

602
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:51.880
hundred people, and I go to
Sunday school as well, and not one

603
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:57.199
person has given me any grief about
my non theism. In fact, they

604
00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:00.360
listen to me because I have valuable
information I was a religion, So they're

605
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:05.280
respectful. There's been no arguments,
there's been no challenging. We're getting a

606
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.679
long great and I think it's important. I think it's significant that a skeptic

607
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:14.280
and an atheist is available to them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And

608
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:16.199
it's strange too, I mean because
like Jimmy, we were talking about the

609
00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:21.360
war on the War on Christmas.
You could conceivably put all of the things

610
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:23.280
that you talked about at the beginning
as like, oh, it's a war

611
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:29.599
on Christmas, and I see no
difference between you his reporting historical facts and

612
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:32.239
like just having a conversation about it. Why do we have to do that?

613
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:36.519
That's why this i'd call this positive
aggressive. Jimmy and I were nice,

614
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:38.079
kind, gentle people with you.
Phil. Hopefully you feel the same

615
00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:42.199
way, but we're also going to
be aggressive and ask you why, how,

616
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.440
what, where? How are you
getting there? Help us understand?

617
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:47.480
And if we can't get it,
well, then that's maybe not something that

618
00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:50.840
we're going to carry forward as far
as our own thinking. Yeah, Phil,

619
00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:54.920
I really appreciate that you were a
religion major, because this my my

620
00:39:55.079 --> 00:40:00.960
religion really fell apart when I took
as a as a rushman in college my

621
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:06.000
Bible literature class. I mean,
I'd never read the Bible before, and

622
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:07.360
then I read the whole thing front, front to back, which I should

623
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.840
probably do it again because it's been
about I don't know twenty years or so,

624
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:15.719
seventeen, but you know, just
getting in and examining what that is,

625
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.440
you know, it kind of made
me start really questioning, even though

626
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.360
I kind of had some you know, tendencies to think it doesn't really add

627
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:25.800
up to me. Was that kind
of what you experienced, like, you

628
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:30.079
know, your religion major. Did
you go in did you go into this

629
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.760
thing like I'm going to learn about
what it is I believe and then you

630
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:37.400
started learning and you realized, oh
crap, like somebody missed something somewhere and

631
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.559
you had to kind of you had
to kind of reattack it. What do

632
00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:43.320
you think by the time I got
into college as a religion major, I

633
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:46.079
didn't start as religion major. I
quickly changed after I took this wonderful professor.

634
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:50.280
I was pretty much halfway out the
door at that point, you know,

635
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:53.920
after seeing what the what the fundamentalist
takeover did to my church. And

636
00:40:54.039 --> 00:41:00.440
this was before conservative religion had become
so political. Know, it changed dramatically

637
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:02.719
over the last forty five years,
But no, I was. I was

638
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:08.039
already mostly a skeptic and then of
course I discovered James Randy and you know,

639
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:12.880
Gardner and all those great guys and
Carl sig And and I realized,

640
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.840
uh, this is a lot of
this is bullshit. I need to go

641
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.480
ahead and be a skeptic. Yeah, no, I was, you know.

642
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.480
And that's the thing. This was
a very liberal This was a liberal

643
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:25.159
college. So there was no preaching
going on in class. This was a

644
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:30.679
this was serious history and study in
the in the and we talked about a

645
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:34.480
lot of world religions. You know, it wasn't just Christianity. We talked

646
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:37.159
about Buddhism, Hinduism and cults and
sex and it was just a really good,

647
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:39.320
a really good overview. But no, I was out there. I

648
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.880
was pretty much out the door by
the time I was Yeah, I was

649
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:45.760
already on the way to being an
atheist, right right. And that's what

650
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:47.360
I'm saying, Like, you know, you're out the door, and then

651
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:52.519
you get that little nudge from actually
being put in a position where you have

652
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.480
to question, uh, question the
things that you know you've been told all

653
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:59.519
these years, and uh, it
just really helps you along. We always

654
00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:01.559
say, you know, the best
way to becoming an atheist, uh is

655
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:06.199
to actually read the Bible or you
know, in the case for for non

656
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:08.880
Christians to kind of uh you know, maybe read through some of the things

657
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:14.000
that they've been taught all their lives. So anyway, uh, I you

658
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:15.360
know, want to kind of move
on to some other callers, Phil,

659
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:20.199
I really appreciate your call. Uh, and UH keep calling in Glad you

660
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:22.880
called two weeks in a row,
and UH, great conversation, great experience,

661
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.920
and uh you know, I hope
uh, I hope your trip back

662
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:30.280
to uh back to church. Uh, you know, it is a worthwhile

663
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:31.559
one. Uh. And don't worry
about the people in the commons. So

664
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:36.400
you know, Tom, actually we
were talking earlier and I had my own

665
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:42.079
experience uh in the you do uh
am guilt. You did something. I

666
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:44.639
messed up, all right, I
messed up and it came forward. So

667
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.480
uh, we were having a conversation
a couple of weeks ago. I was

668
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:50.519
on a show. Uh. I
was on a show with uh with the

669
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.480
great Christy Powell, who, by
the way, has had some success also

670
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:58.480
speaking with a manual. So glad
to see that Emmanuel is kind of you

671
00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:01.679
know, gauging other people and and
really having these questions in you know,

672
00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:07.480
multiple going down multiple roads talking to
people like you Christy. But you know,

673
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:09.599
we had a call a call in
and say, you know, all

674
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:14.920
men hunted and all women gathered,
or at least that was his question,

675
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:22.639
right in our foraging societies kind of
pre domestication before the agricultural revolution and things

676
00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:27.840
like that, right, And so
I incorrectly stated that women didn't hunt,

677
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:31.320
right, So I think I deserve
a little bit more credit, although I

678
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:35.480
did, I did admit guilt,
but what I said was, Look,

679
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.559
it wasn't that all men hunted and
all women gathered, right, The whole

680
00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:43.639
society was hunter gathered. However,
to the extent that men were both hunter

681
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:46.800
gatherer, women didn't necessarily hunt,
although that was nuanced, right, And

682
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.880
and I did know. You know, I have come across in my studies

683
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.000
as a history major and a political
science major, study and cross cultural competencies

684
00:43:54.039 --> 00:44:00.199
and things like that, I have
the foundation for understanding that human societies is

685
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:05.000
incredibly nuanced. And nobody throughout history, throughout prehistory, did we ever do

686
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:08.639
the same things from different societies and
different regions. Everything was very different.

687
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:14.360
But I think the overall, the
overarching point I was trying to make is

688
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:20.880
that with the male dominated patriarchical or
patriarchal societies the way things were structured.

689
00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:23.400
We saw the development of gender roles
come through that, and then of course

690
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.519
the rise of religion that kind of
made things worse for women, right And

691
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.840
so anyway, I had a caller
or excuse me, somebody in the comments

692
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:36.800
call me a flip flopper and tell
me that I didn't know anything about what

693
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:39.079
I was talking about, maybe not
in those exact terms. And you know,

694
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:45.519
after engaging engaging the individual, we
had a very nice conversation, you

695
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:46.719
know, and I was glad that
it turned out that way, but you

696
00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:51.119
know, he was right. He
was right me saying things like, hey,

697
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:53.599
no, women like you can't just
speak in broad terms like that.

698
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:58.719
You know, you can't just paint
everybody with the same brush. And you

699
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:00.039
know, I had to come out. I made it TikTok video about it

700
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.760
and said, look, I said
something incorrect. Actually. Uh. The

701
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:07.920
following week, Forrest was on with
Christy Uh and uh and Jamie Boone a

702
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:10.000
great show. But Forrest, you
know, who's an expert in this area,

703
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:13.440
started talking about, you know,
the same things. It was like,

704
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.159
well, there's tons of evidence that
women women, uh, you know,

705
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:17.400
that women were hunters. And I
said, you know, man,

706
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:21.159
I really got to go back and
look at what I said. Uh.

707
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:24.239
So yeah, I'm glad that I
was able to have an engagement with a

708
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:28.599
caller where I could say, look, you know what, I wasn'correct in

709
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:31.000
the way that I that I fashioned
that statement. I should know better,

710
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:35.719
uh, and you know it should
be it should be, you know,

711
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:38.840
something that we're comfortable doing. Uh
when we go back and kind of re

712
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:43.440
examine, you know, the mistakes
or or we take criticism when we say,

713
00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:45.840
huh, you know, I'm looking
at that incorrectly and I need to

714
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:49.400
kind of reassess. And so I
don't know, I don't know how you

715
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:52.280
uh, how you feel about all
that time. I know that was kind

716
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.599
of a long, a long recap. Not trying to make excuses for myself.

717
00:45:55.639 --> 00:45:59.039
What I'm really trying to allude to
is that, you know, like

718
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:00.800
I've said before in the show,
people are wrong all the time, and

719
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:05.639
that uh, you know that includes
me, and I'm happy to happy to

720
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:07.440
have these discussions. So I don't
know what are your what are your thoughts

721
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:09.800
on that? I know what we
we said, we'd talk about that a

722
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:14.000
little bit today, So I wanted
to kind of just relay that to you.

723
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:15.920
I want to tell you on behalf
of the listeners, thank you for

724
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:21.039
your honesty, thank you for your
growth and taking ownership over your mistakes.

725
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.119
Like I mean, like everybody knows
that of course if you if you make

726
00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:28.760
a mistake on something, you want
to take responsibility and get better and grow.

727
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:31.599
How do you do that doing what
you just freaking did? Like,

728
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:35.079
like, we're not superheroes. We
don't pretend to be. I'm not an

729
00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:37.320
expert in anything you said before.
I'm passionate about these things, I'm not

730
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.440
an expert. Yeah. Absolutely,
So we're gonna make mistakes as we talk

731
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:45.599
here, we'll say we'll say uh
there. Here's a good example from last

732
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:49.440
week Arman and J Mike Right.
A caller came in said, hey,

733
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:52.519
Arman, in your book, you
said there's no evidence of God. However,

734
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.119
I've seen evidence for God, and
Armand's like, okay, I'm I'm

735
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:01.719
talking colloquially. No evidence also means
no good evidence or insufficient evidence. Does

736
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:05.599
that work for you? And they're
like, but you said no evidence And

737
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:07.320
he's like, yo, no,
I'm clarifying for you because you're not getting

738
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:12.000
it. I meant insufficient or bad
just like if you accuse me and you're

739
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:15.320
like of murder and you have nothing
to go on other than I think he

740
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:17.480
did it, that's evidence. It's
not good, right, And I don't

741
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:22.320
think that there was like a through
line through it with that caller, which

742
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:24.360
is okay, But thank you for
making the through line here. You took

743
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:28.440
the critical feedback, you did your
research. You're like, oh my goodness,

744
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.320
And I think I had a similar
experience with that same thing, either

745
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:35.519
listening to the forest thing or something
else. But was it that there is

746
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.199
evidence that women were hunters or is
that there's no evidence that it was women

747
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:43.880
are hunters? Or sorry, men
are hunters and women are gatherers exclusively.

748
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:47.239
Oh no, so there's evidence that
women are hunters, right. I think

749
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:52.639
the fact that we have to go
find that or that came up secondarily speaks

750
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.639
to the nature of the fact that, you know, broadly speaking, of

751
00:47:55.639 --> 00:48:00.559
course, men were more often hunters, right, But that doesn't mean that

752
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:04.400
women didn't hunt. And in some
societies it was it was an equal division

753
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:07.000
of labor. Women were expected to
hunt. You know, you have different

754
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:12.599
societies that I maybe more reliant on
big game, and then some societies that

755
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:15.840
are not and then you know,
you have larger societies where division of labor

756
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:20.360
is a little bit more, a
little bit more obvious, where you may

757
00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:22.639
in another area, you may have
a small society where people are expected to

758
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:25.920
do more. It all just depends, really, and that's uh, that's

759
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:29.880
kind of the uh, the the
answer that you know, we get.

760
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:31.960
I'm in the military, of course, and I spent some years as a

761
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:36.119
military intelligence analyst, and I always
told people, well, you know,

762
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:38.320
the answer is it depends. And
I always hate giving that, but you

763
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:43.320
know what, the the the plethora
of possibility that's out there when we talk

764
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:46.800
about the origins of humanity, you
know, really is extremely nuanced, and

765
00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:51.719
there's not just one way things happened. So plenty of evidence that women were

766
00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:54.199
hunters, plenty of evidence that women
were warriors. Uh. One of my

767
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:59.360
best, my favorite courses I took
was called Women in Europe from my undergraduate

768
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:04.000
history degree. Uh, and and
studying about Viking women and and women from

769
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:08.199
warrior societies that were expected to kind
of defend and fight. I always found

770
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:12.840
that so fascinating. And so yeah, I would say that, you know,

771
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:16.840
my original claim, you know,
speaking to the to maybe not acknowledging

772
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:22.000
the evidence where I could have uh
was was kind of a fault of mine.

773
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.199
But yeah, I am glad that
we have experts on the show from

774
00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:29.559
a variety of different fields. I
mean, we've got we've got legal experts

775
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:34.559
and biological experts and philosophers and the
like. But you know, we've kind

776
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:38.079
of beat this up, and I
want to make sure that our listeners know

777
00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:43.480
that we have exciting ways for them
to contribute to the ACA. Uh It's

778
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.280
it's a big ask sometimes to have
people call in. Although we would love

779
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:49.960
for you to call in, we
do have other ways you could support us,

780
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.840
and one of those is by buying
an engraved brick and becoming part of

781
00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:57.280
our library's legacy. So check out
this video to learn more. Have you

782
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:00.360
ever wanted to make a permanent impact
on the atheist community of Austin. Help

783
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:05.360
support our Space for Free Thought by
buying a custom engraved brick to be laid

784
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.599
on the building grounds to help raise
funds for improvements. Our building has stood

785
00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:13.599
as a beacon for years bringing people
together, but three years of emptiness due

786
00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:16.199
to the pandemic have taken a toll, leaving it in disrepair. Help us

787
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:21.159
restore this hub of connection and support
by buying a brick. Moses had his

788
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:24.159
Stone tablets, but we're doing our
own version. Join our brick fundraiser and

789
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:29.800
let your engraved messages stand the test
of time minus commandments. Visit tiny dot

790
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:34.440
CC forward slash ACA Bricks for more
information. Get your bricky sweet yeah yeah,

791
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:37.400
yeah, I mean, be part
of the legacy, be part of

792
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:40.199
our structure, you know, and
it's a perfect Hey, maybe you want

793
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:43.760
to give a gift for somebody,
you know, it is that time of

794
00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:47.039
year. It's also the time of
year when we have opened our Aca Merchandise

795
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:51.800
Vault, and that'll give you an
opportunity to pick some of the limited items

796
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that you might have missed earlier in
the year. Right now, we're featuring

797
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five of the most popular shirt designs
from the past year. But you're gonna

798
00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:00.639
have to hurry because the vault will
only be open until the end of December.

799
00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:06.920
So you can use the discount code
the Vault all capitals, no spaces

800
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:10.320
to get a ten percent off of
your entire purchase. Visit tiny dot c

801
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C forward slash merch Aca. And
we do want to hear from you.

802
00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:20.400
We've said it routinely. We've talked
about, you know, different interactions that

803
00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:22.960
we've had, and we want you
to know. We want to know,

804
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:25.519
excuse me, what you like about
our show, what you don't like,

805
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:30.440
what was effective about what we did, more importantly, what we can do

806
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:35.440
better. We're always open to feedback
and constructive criticism having conversations about that,

807
00:51:35.559 --> 00:51:40.000
So please email us at TV at
Atheist hyphencommunity dot org and let us know.

808
00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:45.840
I had somebody Tom emailed me last
week and I had a great conversation

809
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:47.840
with this person. You know,
so a few weeks ago, I likened

810
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:53.519
a story about Hercules to one about, you know, the birth of Jesus

811
00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:58.880
and the story of Jesus. Right, so broadly speaking, Hercules was born

812
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.840
a woman who was impregnated by Zeus
against her own free will. Hercules traveled

813
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:07.760
to the underworld and came back,
and so pretty interesting how we have all

814
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:13.960
of these kind of societies kind of
across our history that kind of share and

815
00:52:14.039 --> 00:52:15.480
borrow from each other. Right,
And so that's what I had a conversation

816
00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:20.360
with that caller about. He was
receptive because his question was, you know,

817
00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:23.920
don't you think that all these similarities
kind of lead to some proof that

818
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:29.079
maybe all of it's true, maybe
that there's some god that's out there that's

819
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:31.119
giving us the same message, but
we're screwing it up. And you know,

820
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:34.639
I kind of I don't know what
what what? How would you answer

821
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:37.440
that question? What do you think
could be? Yeah, for sure,

822
00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:39.800
could be. It seems unlikely though, Yeah, like as far as like

823
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:45.159
the plausibility of that theory, I
would put The next one is like,

824
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:49.239
hey, maybe all humans are born
with these conditions where one, we're born

825
00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:52.679
into a society generally, and we
need to cooperate with one another too.

826
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:58.000
Is like the societies evolve over time
when they get these different technologies, whether

827
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:02.320
the technology is like a politics or
government or ways of doing market, you

828
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:06.239
know, farming technology, Like all
these things have an impact on how the

829
00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:09.400
society works together. Perhaps it's worth
digging into that and see if that might

830
00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:14.559
be a more plausible explanation explanation.
Yeah, let's be fantastic. And like

831
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:16.920
the fact that you're engaging with folks, that's that's what we're all here to

832
00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:20.280
do. I do want to call
it. We here at the ACA,

833
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:24.639
the only five oh one c three
nonprofit call in show uh that we're atheists

834
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:29.480
talking to theists. And other atheists
and everybody. But we talk about these

835
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:34.760
ideas listeners sponsored by your brick uh
and volunteer powered. We are here of

836
00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:37.320
our own free will because we are
we are passionate about these topics and talking

837
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:39.559
to others about it. So thank
you. Yeah, yeah, no,

838
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:44.119
great, Uh yeah I am.
I am so excited that I'm kind of

839
00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:46.119
developing these relationships with people. I
want to give a special shout out.

840
00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:52.599
I had somebody, a wonderful,
wonderful viewer shoot me a message on Twitter

841
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:54.039
or make a post on Twitter the
other day? Or should I say X

842
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:57.480
right? Are we switching to X? Now? Are we calling it X?

843
00:53:57.679 --> 00:54:00.679
Uh? You don't like it?
You keep it Twitter? Yeah?

844
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:02.119
Yeah, you know, we're all
speaking the same language here. We know

845
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:07.360
what's going on. But I want
to speak to Sarah and Company or or

846
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:09.639
Sarah and Co. But she made
a post, Hey, Jimmy, my

847
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:14.639
girlfriends and I watch talk Ethen every
Sunday religiously like what you did there.

848
00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:19.199
But we're all atheists and we love
some of the theist calls. Keep up

849
00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:22.079
the good work. Yeah, I
really appreciate that love. I know that

850
00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:28.679
She went on to share our the
time and date for the show, encouraging

851
00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:31.719
people to call in and see what's
going on. So I appreciate the followership,

852
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:36.360
appreciate you being part of our community, and let's keep it up.

853
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.880
So Sarah mentioned how much she and
her friends love watching us. I'm pretty

854
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:43.880
sure she's out there. They're in
their pajamas, cuddled up right now,

855
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:46.920
just watching us. Shout them out. So I also want to shout out

856
00:54:47.079 --> 00:54:53.159
Pastor Alex. Pastor Alex, he's
a hilarious dude, told people do not

857
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:58.559
watch our show, absolutely don't watch
it, which I found pretty funny because

858
00:54:58.559 --> 00:55:00.960
I'm sure that was an attempt at
re psychology, but I don't think it's

859
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:05.599
working because we do have other calls. In any case, we appreciate the

860
00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:08.199
free publicity. So Tom, I
want to get to some other calls we

861
00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:13.559
have on the line. From Canada
goes by him and he wants to know

862
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:19.480
how does secular humanism fit into objective
morality? So Serge, happy to take

863
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.199
your call, and you are on
with Tom and Jimmy. Go ahead.

864
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:27.679
What's your question? The question of
the states? How do the secular humans

865
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:35.119
affinity objective morality? I had a
conversation recently with the Theist about how objective

866
00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:39.360
morality stemps solely from his book,
he believed in the biblical biblical God and

867
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:46.039
the epithemic God, and so it
stopped me from what I understand objective morality

868
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:52.280
well as defined as a universal understanding
of what's good and what's not. But

869
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:55.719
I already knew all that given before
I even read the book, and I

870
00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:00.280
used to be a theist myself.
So what I'm trying to understand is how

871
00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:05.159
it's secular assament doesn't fit into it
because I understand it at a very very

872
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:12.280
basic level, but I cannot express
it to UH expect it to U.

873
00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:15.199
How do I explain it? Now? We got you? No? No,

874
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:17.679
I think I think we got your
question, and I'm gonna I'm gonna

875
00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:22.159
kick it over to Tom, our
wonderful UH co host for today and see

876
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:25.199
see what he wants to to dig
up on that. For sure, I'll

877
00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:30.039
kick it back over to Surge.
When you say objective morality, I think

878
00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:32.320
we know what you mean, But
how do you how do you define that?

879
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:37.039
Uh? It's as I read it
is? Uh crap. I had

880
00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:39.880
the definition in front of me a
little while ago. But objective morality,

881
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:47.039
as I've read and understood is a
global understanding and a universal understanding of morality

882
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:53.599
of what's good and bad. If
I understand the definition correctly, Okay,

883
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:59.920
very good. So it's a it's
a global understanding of morality that we all

884
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:02.599
share, or that we could all
share. Because it's objective, right,

885
00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:07.920
it's based on some other things.
So I guess how how would taking one

886
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.280
book and saying that that's the objective
way that we're going to do it,

887
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:14.440
how would that relate to if I
say, no, it's this book over

888
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:17.679
here, this one's the objective one. Oh, because that's what the person

889
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:22.239
who with whom I was conversation believed. He said, Oh, the Bible

890
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:27.760
is all. The book is all. It is the fallible word of God's

891
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:31.039
through that came into existence through the
sallible word of man. But it is

892
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:36.400
what it is infallible to begin with. Right. But so let's see absolutely.

893
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:38.639
Yeah. So I guess like if
I were to just say, that's

894
00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:42.800
great, you have that book over
there, mine says the same thing.

895
00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:45.960
It says, my God's infallible.
How are we going to sort this out?

896
00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:51.679
Then we would be having argument got
the better gods? Right? So

897
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:53.119
there's got to be a different way, Right, We can't just go on

898
00:57:53.159 --> 00:57:58.119
the books and say this book says
that and therefore it's true. Correct.

899
00:57:58.880 --> 00:58:00.679
If your book says it's true,
but my book is different but it says

900
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:05.559
it's true, then either both books
are true simultaneously, which is a logical

901
00:58:05.599 --> 00:58:08.239
fallacy, or our fault. Yeah, shoot darn it. So, like,

902
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:10.760
what do we do next? So? I guess you're you're kind of

903
00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:14.000
calling. I know you're calling,
like on behalf of Hey, I had

904
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:15.159
this conversation. Is your question?
Like, how do I how do I

905
00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:19.519
take it to that next step?
Here? Yeah? Like, what's as

906
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:23.239
I understand? Second, a humanism
is understanding that we have no need for

907
00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:28.039
a high power to have morals.
But this person tells me, well,

908
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:31.119
we do need a high power to
have morals because our book said so,

909
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:37.119
and it has for the last two
thousands years or so. Yeah, maybe

910
00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:40.119
it's but yeah maybe so. I
guess I just have like two instincts.

911
00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:43.079
One is to say, like,
oh, shoot darn it, my book

912
00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:45.480
says the same thing. How are
we going to figure this out? And

913
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:46.880
it would probably be all right.
We had to put both of these to

914
00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:52.159
the side and come to some sort
of way of the how we get to

915
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:54.679
the truth behind objective morality if we
can even agree that that's a thing,

916
00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:59.679
that there is an objective morality to
have in here. The second I'm curious

917
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:02.719
your thoughts on this, Jimmy,
would be to just like, let's go

918
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:07.639
into the book though, and validate
that this fits our objective moral framework.

919
00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:12.920
Here. Do we believe that slavery
is good or bad? Yes or no?

920
00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:15.280
Right based on the book? What
does the book say? And then

921
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:20.480
how does that feel to us instinctively
right if we think about being objectively moral

922
00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:22.360
even though we're being subjective in that
moment. Jimmy, what do you think?

923
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:28.199
How do you address this this common
challenge? Yeah, so I agree

924
00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:32.920
that the comparison for different claims or
excuse me, the same claims made by

925
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:37.199
different people or different books, if
you will, is a good way to

926
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.880
kind of initially investigate. But it's
very seldom that somebody who is claiming that

927
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:46.119
their religion or their beliefs are moral
actually know what all of those beliefs in

928
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:51.239
religion are, and experience tells us
that. And so I do like Tom's

929
00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:53.639
idea of kind of you know,
all right, well, you have determined

930
00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:58.159
right to the other person the person
on the other end of the conversation.

931
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:02.079
Okay, you have determined that morality
is based solely on the message that you

932
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:05.960
have, the message that you're trying
to give. So now let's go through

933
01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:08.639
that message, and then we have
to really judge the veracity of this person's

934
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:15.480
claims based on the fact of whether
or not they can adequately make those claims.

935
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:20.119
Describe those claims that or or those
beliefs that support that claim. I

936
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:23.079
would say, though, getting back
to Sergei's initial question, real quick,

937
01:00:23.119 --> 01:00:25.920
I want to just plug this before
it, you know, falls off the

938
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.480
old iceberg. Too many penguins on
the iceberg, as they say, But

939
01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:32.800
I don't wanna lose this, so
I would say that, I would say

940
01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:39.679
secular humanism is the thing that we
do to try and get to an objective

941
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:45.239
morality, even though the objective morality, from what we can tell isn't exist.

942
01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:50.519
Doesn't exist. Excuse me, because
morality is incredibly objective subjective, right.

943
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.760
Depending on who you ask what's moral
what's not, you might get a

944
01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:57.920
different answer. You might get some
different beliefs and practices traditions that all can

945
01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:01.360
conflict with each other. I think
though, that we generally as people have

946
01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:07.199
the same basic needs, the same
basic instincts, and the need or love

947
01:01:07.239 --> 01:01:12.760
of life they want to survive or
need to survive, that can we can

948
01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:15.039
really examine to try and find,
all, right, what is it that

949
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:17.199
we all have in common that binds
us together. Certainly it's not religion,

950
01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:22.639
right, So in that point,
I would say objective morality is off the

951
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:25.440
table when it comes to religion,
because our religious messages are just not lining

952
01:01:25.519 --> 01:01:29.079
up. If anything, they're canceling
each other out. But we have to

953
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:31.119
kind of look at all right,
let's go the secular humanist route. Let's

954
01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:34.719
take religion off the table. What
is it that's important to you? What

955
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:37.719
is it that's important to me.
Not that consensus really defines what's objective,

956
01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:44.280
but it kind of brings us closer
together in determining how we can live together,

957
01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:47.440
share this tiny space and get all
get along. And so that's where

958
01:01:47.480 --> 01:01:52.880
I think secular humanism fits into.
Objective morality. Doesn't solve the problem,

959
01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:58.320
but it's the alternative to these morality
claims that don't seem to add up.

960
01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:01.320
But yeah, like I've said before, and something that I believe in passionately,

961
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:06.119
you know, you don't have to
point to somebody and say, here's

962
01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:09.400
why what you believe is wrong,
right you. You don't have to add

963
01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:16.159
maybe emotion to that thing as much
as you can just show why it just

964
01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:20.599
doesn't work. Right. So Tom
talked about slavery, and a lot of

965
01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:23.320
people will try and justify slavery in
the Bible. But you don't have to

966
01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:28.000
say, well, you know you're
stupid or or you're wrong because X.

967
01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:32.480
You can just say would you enjoy
being a slave? Right? And that

968
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:37.119
is kind of a different question.
That is kind of pointing out something different

969
01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:42.800
rather than judging the person, or
you know, kind of characterizing their thoughts

970
01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:45.159
for them, you know, pointing
pointing to the fact instead of describing the

971
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:47.639
fact to them. If that makes
sense. I don't know, Serge,

972
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:51.199
how how are we looking so far? I hope I didn't lose you there.

973
01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:54.000
I know you haven't lost me so
far. I've trying to rattle this

974
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:59.440
in my brain, and I think
you've come to a try to explain to

975
01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:05.440
me that the objective morality is the
finish line, but check that humanism is

976
01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:08.559
the pathway to that finish line.
Gets the book The Bible says, oh,

977
01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:12.719
we're already have the finish line.
We don't need the we don't need

978
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:15.480
the journey. That is a great, great synopsis. That is a great

979
01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:20.239
synopsis for what I just said.
And I will caveat that with that is

980
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:22.880
what I'm saying, right, But
I don't speak for all atheists, right.

981
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:27.840
I can just give you my best
perspective, and and I think that

982
01:03:27.920 --> 01:03:30.480
morality may very well be a little
bit more objective than we give it credit

983
01:03:30.519 --> 01:03:36.159
for. But we kind of got
to remove those confines that pull us into

984
01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:39.880
thinking our way is the right way
instead of looking for and instead look for

985
01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:45.480
a universal right way. But I, hey, great question, great synopsis.

986
01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:49.719
Sounds like uh, sounds like you
know you're prepared for the next conversation.

987
01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:51.639
I don't know, Tom, Do
you have anything to add, Yes,

988
01:03:51.719 --> 01:03:53.599
Sergey, let me give you one
other, one other thing to use.

989
01:03:53.639 --> 01:03:57.719
And this is something that didn't come
to mind until after Jimmy you were

990
01:03:57.719 --> 01:04:01.360
talking. So there's a there's a
book by a doctor named Jacob Apple.

991
01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:04.119
Apple I think is what it is. It's called it Who Says You're Dead?

992
01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:06.679
Who Says You're Dead? And that's
one of the stories in the book.

993
01:04:06.679 --> 01:04:10.880
But it's basically what's that. Sorry, could you look at the name

994
01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:13.079
of the doctor on the will the
name right now and have a look,

995
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:16.400
Yeah, Jacob Apple. And I'm
not saying that I'm sponsoring this book or

996
01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:20.599
that the podcast here sponsors it.
But the book's called Who Says You're Dead?

997
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:26.840
And it's a collection of these medical
ethical dilemmas and let me give you

998
01:04:26.920 --> 01:04:28.880
let me give you one that you
can check out there, but like you

999
01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.239
can read all of them. It's
the most disorienting book you'll ever read,

1000
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:34.840
because it's like three pages of a
story with at the end going like,

1001
01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:38.400
here's some thoughts on this side,
here's some thoughts on that side. Whatever.

1002
01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:41.559
Right, There's no answers in it. It's just here are these situations.

1003
01:04:42.039 --> 01:04:45.000
So one of them. There's two
conjoined twins, right, and they

1004
01:04:46.039 --> 01:04:48.840
unlike the ones you see in the
TV shows, they don't like each other,

1005
01:04:49.039 --> 01:04:51.480
not one bit. In fact,
they hate each other. And they

1006
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:56.360
have very different beliefs about what it
means to lead a meaningful life as conjoin

1007
01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:59.880
twins. One of them wants to
get separated and go on her own way.

1008
01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:02.360
The other one very much does not. There is a medical risk in

1009
01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:06.239
the separation procedure. They know that
some significant percentage of people who go through

1010
01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:11.639
this will die. Based on the
Bible, what is the objectively moral choice

1011
01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:15.239
for the doctors and the patients to
make? Here? Wow? Objective a

1012
01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:19.000
moral ways for the doctors? Yeah, shit right, I don't know the

1013
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:23.119
Bible is going to be their best
resource to reason through this sort of thing.

1014
01:05:23.480 --> 01:05:26.320
But like, is that not a
moral question? Somebody could die?

1015
01:05:26.360 --> 01:05:29.719
There's risks involved, and this is
about life. Like, if there's any

1016
01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:32.119
one thing that we could consider sacred, it is our own Linds. Is

1017
01:05:32.119 --> 01:05:34.840
this thing that we're experiencing through our
heads right now? So how do we

1018
01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:38.599
make the right decision there? How
does the Bible help us inform it?

1019
01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:44.400
I don't know that it's it's been
situated or is the right manual that I

1020
01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:47.280
would use to reason through something as
complicated as that? And good Heavens,

1021
01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:50.920
I'm glad that I'm not in the
situation where I have to. Yeah,

1022
01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:55.519
Bible fails a lot of tests,
so do a lot of other religious books.

1023
01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:57.679
Go ahead, Sergey, I'll give
you give you a time to close

1024
01:05:57.719 --> 01:06:00.519
us out. Go ahead, shut
up, I'm your announces. We can

1025
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:04.920
join twins. You might be looking
at what is the greater good in the

1026
01:06:05.159 --> 01:06:11.199
end, what is the most benefit
at least laws Sure, and I would

1027
01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:14.679
guess those two twins would have different
answers about it, right, and it

1028
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:17.400
doesn't solve the problem for them.
But yeah, again, look, you

1029
01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:21.719
cannot be objective, and sure one
would have its on benefits as losses.

1030
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:28.480
You're kind of looking at a sort
of a seesaw of morality going up and

1031
01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:30.559
down. Don't know this, I
don't know this. Yeah, wow,

1032
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:32.920
I'm something. I'm going to read
this book and I'm definitely going to get

1033
01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:38.199
through this. It is a collection
of those where you will end every single

1034
01:06:38.199 --> 01:06:42.480
one probably with the same thing going
like huh, well that's unresolved, and

1035
01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:45.880
then you move to the next one. So I'm interested in those sorts of

1036
01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:48.280
things and for like the insights behind
how do you think about that? What

1037
01:06:48.440 --> 01:06:51.960
makes one more right than the other? And in that case, I don't

1038
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:55.559
know, I don't know, I
don't know, and I don't want to,

1039
01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:58.079
right, I just don't want to
think about that. All right,

1040
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:00.760
Well, I hope, I hope
that is helpful. I mean, I

1041
01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:03.480
think we had a great conversation.
Uh, we are gonna let you go

1042
01:07:03.719 --> 01:07:09.079
and move on to some more callers, but continue to call in and uh,

1043
01:07:09.199 --> 01:07:11.920
you know, I really appreciate hearing
from you, and uh yeah,

1044
01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:15.360
I hope, I hope this helps
for for the future. So, uh,

1045
01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:18.079
you know, Tom, we have
to get to something that's that's very

1046
01:07:18.119 --> 01:07:24.320
important. Right. We have our
top five patriots and uh it's your duty

1047
01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:28.920
as our guest today to read those
out and to to acknowledge these folks that

1048
01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:31.280
uh, you know, are are
sticking with us week after week. So

1049
01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:34.039
what do you say, can you
do the top five? Me? Yeah,

1050
01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:38.119
yeah, absolutely, to see we
have to see how you do with

1051
01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:41.039
pronouncing them. It's a it's something
that we all have to do. Oh

1052
01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:45.280
right, it's up there. Okay. First, of course, the famous

1053
01:07:45.320 --> 01:07:47.599
infamous some might even say which you
never get to choose. You just get

1054
01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:50.760
to take one or the other.
Dingle Berry Jackson. That's right, dingle

1055
01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:54.880
Berry Jackson. Thank you so much
for your donations. Yeah, these are

1056
01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:58.320
some familiar names, but you know
what, that's gotta be a healthy competition

1057
01:07:58.360 --> 01:08:01.679
out there for the listener because oops, all singularity period. Our second top

1058
01:08:01.679 --> 01:08:08.119
patron thank you for your patronage.
DeVore Vlgian Belgian, davore Valgian, thank

1059
01:08:08.159 --> 01:08:11.920
you so much for your donations Kalevi
Helveti. I think I made the comment

1060
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:15.319
last time about it. It's like, uh, Klevlar, who's that lucky

1061
01:08:15.399 --> 01:08:19.000
number? Seleven? Great flick and
then left in the leaves, left in

1062
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:24.439
the leaves, oh double meaning there
for the person, not for me because

1063
01:08:24.439 --> 01:08:29.920
I don't understand it. And our
honorable mention Mark Laguster Laguskar, Mark Laguskar.

1064
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:32.720
That's a great name. What you
did? Hey, Tom, you

1065
01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:36.000
nailed that. You know. I
love what you did with Kleevi Helvetti that.

1066
01:08:36.279 --> 01:08:39.119
Uh can you do that one more
time? How did you do that

1067
01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:43.560
again? I don't know what I
did kelle Helvenni. We're gonna have to

1068
01:08:43.600 --> 01:08:45.239
go back and look because that might
be the new pronunciation, you know.

1069
01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:48.960
Doctor Ben and I, uh fight
back and forth on devor Valgin because I

1070
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.239
say Davo Valgean, Uh, you
did pretty pretty well, but he says

1071
01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:59.279
Devor Valgin and uh, you know, our beef continues. We were asked,

1072
01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:02.079
have we ever asked a hair or
I don't know. I don't think

1073
01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:04.520
we really want to know. I
don't really think we want to know.

1074
01:09:04.560 --> 01:09:06.600
We kind of just want it to
be a mystery. And you know,

1075
01:09:06.760 --> 01:09:11.920
let's do it. We'll just let
it die there. We got we got

1076
01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:15.399
somebody else though. Miranda Rensburger sends
five dollars. Thank you very much,

1077
01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:18.680
Miranda. I am always happy to
see your name pop up every time I'm

1078
01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:24.279
on week after week Miranda's there.
She misses crew Cat and sends love to

1079
01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:29.439
his grieving family. That's right,
we lost Crew Cat unfortunately, So shout

1080
01:09:29.439 --> 01:09:31.760
out to our guy Vern you know, and I hope you hope you're doing

1081
01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:36.520
all right. But thank you very
much, Miranda. And we want to

1082
01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:42.560
talk about more ways that you can
get involved with the ACA and available on

1083
01:09:42.640 --> 01:09:47.000
tiny dot c c forward slash ACA
flyers or printable call in flyers. Post

1084
01:09:47.039 --> 01:09:51.760
these with permission to community bulletin boards
so people know they should call our show

1085
01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:55.479
and defend their faith. If you
do post any flyers, just make sure

1086
01:09:55.520 --> 01:09:58.760
you take a picture with it.
We might be able to show that on

1087
01:09:58.840 --> 01:10:02.199
an upcoming show. Send into TV
at Atheist Typhencommunity dot org and we can

1088
01:10:02.199 --> 01:10:05.079
feature that for you. And the
ACA wants you to know what's going on

1089
01:10:05.119 --> 01:10:09.359
in our community, and for that
we've got an updated website, so head

1090
01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:14.199
to www. That Atheist Hyphencommunity dot
org and you can learn about the organization,

1091
01:10:14.600 --> 01:10:16.800
uh it's policies and how you can
get involved. So, uh,

1092
01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:20.159
with that being said, we've got
some more callers on the line, and

1093
01:10:20.239 --> 01:10:25.560
I want to get to Truth six
sixty six from Maryland goes by she her

1094
01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:29.760
and she's skeptical that Phil is an
atheist. So I'm gonna premise this with

1095
01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:32.279
the fact that you know, we
love Phil. We're not calling Phil a

1096
01:10:32.359 --> 01:10:35.840
liar, We're not saying anything negative. This is not malicious, but I

1097
01:10:35.880 --> 01:10:41.359
do want to hear your skepticism,
and you know, maybe Phil can can

1098
01:10:41.560 --> 01:10:44.760
can step to his defense in the
in the comments, or he can call

1099
01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:49.600
back next week and talk about his
level excuse me of theism slash atheism.

1100
01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:53.199
But I think he's laid it out
pretty clear. You know, Uh,

1101
01:10:53.239 --> 01:10:57.359
he is an atheist and likes the
community of his shirt. So Truth six

1102
01:10:57.439 --> 01:11:01.199
sixty six kindly please present your argument
and let's go over that. Hey,

1103
01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:06.199
hey there, this is so strange
to call into an atheist show an atheist

1104
01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:11.359
by the hey Richard's Sake said,
call in, we are happy to have

1105
01:11:11.399 --> 01:11:15.720
you. You are happy to have
you. So I've got my computer clothes,

1106
01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:19.119
I'm not looking at the chat.
So leave that up because I want

1107
01:11:19.119 --> 01:11:23.680
to concentrate on the college. So
I'm not even focused anyway. Anyway,

1108
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:27.239
and I want to say to learn
too. I'm also sorry about Crew Cat,

1109
01:11:27.479 --> 01:11:30.439
so I know how hard it do
to lose an animal. So I'm

1110
01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:34.079
sorry to say that. But anyway, back back to Phil. Okay,

1111
01:11:34.399 --> 01:11:40.159
Now, I listened to your show
every Sunday, sure, so people can

1112
01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:44.680
tell the chat thing there so and
you know a lot of times I can

1113
01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:47.000
tell there were pea callers and sometimes
I oh, you know, oh,

1114
01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:51.319
but I remember Phil's first call when
he called in and he said he was

1115
01:11:51.359 --> 01:11:56.479
an atheist that went to a I
think was the Unitarian Church at a liberal

1116
01:11:56.840 --> 01:12:00.399
type of church, the Church of
Christ, and he the Church of Christ.

1117
01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:03.920
Okay, Church of Christ. So
I'm not familiar with the Church of

1118
01:12:04.039 --> 01:12:08.720
Christ. Church. Is that a
a more that's more of a liberal type

1119
01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:12.479
of church, right, according according
to Phil, And I have to I

1120
01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:15.159
have to take his word on that. But Phil is a former believer stepped

1121
01:12:15.159 --> 01:12:18.279
away from the church who's been an
atheist for about twenty years. I think

1122
01:12:18.319 --> 01:12:23.000
he said. I don't know,
maybe maybe the tony is inaccurate, but

1123
01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:26.159
in any case, uh, yeah, he's been an atheist for a long

1124
01:12:26.159 --> 01:12:28.920
time and decided the sense of community, you know, is really what pulled

1125
01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:32.520
him in. And because the church
has been so opening and welcoming, excuse

1126
01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:36.159
me, open and welcoming, you
know, he feels feels at home there.

1127
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:41.079
So, uh, you know what
is what's your gripe about that?

1128
01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:44.680
If you have one, well,
well, I don't really have a gripe.

1129
01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:49.920
I have a skepticism as to why
an atheist would fill the need to

1130
01:12:50.039 --> 01:12:55.600
go to a church for the sense
of community. Because I get the sense

1131
01:12:55.600 --> 01:13:00.119
of community. I get where you
there's the atheist community, there's not that

1132
01:13:00.199 --> 01:13:03.439
type of the same type of community
as a in the theist community. I

1133
01:13:03.479 --> 01:13:09.640
get that. I lived in a
state where I used to live in Utah.

1134
01:13:10.439 --> 01:13:13.399
From Utah and moved to Maryland,
you know, red state to blue

1135
01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:17.039
state. So I grew up in
a state like that. It was it's

1136
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:20.720
hard to be secular in Utah,
no matter you tried as hard as you

1137
01:13:20.800 --> 01:13:26.600
can, but you were still so
immersed in that Mormon the Mormon culture,

1138
01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:30.039
because everyone knows Utah. I've lived
in Marylands for twenty three years, so

1139
01:13:30.319 --> 01:13:33.359
it's maybe been a little less read. But back when I lived there,

1140
01:13:33.399 --> 01:13:38.239
I grew up there. I was
born there by nineteen sixty so, oh,

1141
01:13:38.359 --> 01:13:40.840
no, I gave away my age
so I lived there. The truth

1142
01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:44.000
forty truth? Are you? Are
you a theist? I'm sorry? Are

1143
01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:47.119
you a theist or an atheist?
I'm I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Oh

1144
01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:50.880
I'm an atheist. I I should
have said up so, but being secular

1145
01:13:51.199 --> 01:13:56.039
in Utah was so I knew.
I didn't believe in the Mormon God,

1146
01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:59.279
didn't believe in more. But I
believe in God. Okay, don't know

1147
01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:03.319
why, but I'm moved to Maryland
and still held that I believed in God.

1148
01:14:03.720 --> 01:14:10.359
And then for some reason, I
stumbled onto a experience twenty years ago.

1149
01:14:10.760 --> 01:14:15.239
I was watching Athey's experience and talks
and atheist shows for twenty three years

1150
01:14:15.279 --> 01:14:20.079
now. Excellent, excellent, excellent. So I just my mind just has

1151
01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:24.079
gone from and to and I got
to the point where, no, I

1152
01:14:24.359 --> 01:14:28.680
do not have said this is I
lack a belief in any God. I

1153
01:14:29.079 --> 01:14:32.359
want to be very clear, because
atheist if so, there's so many definitions

1154
01:14:32.399 --> 01:14:38.119
of an atheist, and we can
you know, you can hear theists make

1155
01:14:38.279 --> 01:14:41.560
so it's just I lack. I
did not come to the point where I

1156
01:14:41.720 --> 01:14:45.079
lack a belief in any god.
But so I don't so since that journey.

1157
01:14:45.720 --> 01:14:48.680
I you know, the reason I
don't believe in a god is because

1158
01:14:48.720 --> 01:14:53.920
of all the stuff that's tied to
believing in a god, in a god.

1159
01:14:54.119 --> 01:14:59.119
So truth a six six before.
So I want to address these things

1160
01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:00.760
because you, First of all,
you're doing great. I mean, you

1161
01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:03.439
were nervous to call in, and
I think you're doing wonderful. So just

1162
01:15:03.520 --> 01:15:06.840
keep that in mind. But yeah, I also want to tell you though,

1163
01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:12.159
though you know, just because so
according to your experience, right,

1164
01:15:12.439 --> 01:15:15.760
you could never go back right atheism. Atheism is who you are now,

1165
01:15:15.880 --> 01:15:19.560
and it's in many facets, many
forms, and there are just some things

1166
01:15:19.600 --> 01:15:23.960
you can't do. But we have
been saying all along, and I think,

1167
01:15:24.079 --> 01:15:27.560
I think after twenty three years of
your viewership, which by the way,

1168
01:15:27.680 --> 01:15:30.880
I'm incredibly grateful for. You know, not all atheists are the same,

1169
01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:35.479
and just because you can't do something
doesn't mean that another atheist doesn't feel

1170
01:15:35.479 --> 01:15:40.560
comfortable doing that thing, or even
shouldn't. You know, even though we

1171
01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:43.920
have taken our beliefs and we've put
them behind us, there's still very much

1172
01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:47.840
a part of who we are I
would not be here without Lutheranism. Without

1173
01:15:47.920 --> 01:15:54.399
Lutheranism, and the Great, the
Great Phoebe, who is a frequent nonprofit

1174
01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:58.920
and has been on some other shows, continues to wear her Star of David.

1175
01:15:59.199 --> 01:16:02.039
I think is the correct terminology.
Uh remember that? Yeah? Yeah,

1176
01:16:02.079 --> 01:16:09.279
And she's no longer a practicing Hebrew
or practicing Jew. I think I

1177
01:16:09.319 --> 01:16:12.680
can say that. But but in
any case, you know, she still

1178
01:16:12.760 --> 01:16:15.439
wears that symbology, right because it's
a part of who she is. It's

1179
01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:18.960
a part of where she comes from. And I, you know, I

1180
01:16:19.000 --> 01:16:24.079
don't have an issue with that.
I still keep a little Lutheran like kind

1181
01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:27.439
of pendant in a shoebox in my
closet. I could throw it out,

1182
01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:29.960
but you know, I kind of
I don't know. I have my Bible

1183
01:16:30.000 --> 01:16:32.640
that I got when I was confirmed
at age what was I thirteen? I

1184
01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:35.159
think, But you know, I
I still hold on to it, you

1185
01:16:35.159 --> 01:16:39.359
know, and it's one that I
referenced quite frequently. But you know,

1186
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:43.279
I don't know that I would.
I would take the step, you know,

1187
01:16:43.439 --> 01:16:47.199
to to call Phil, you know, to to be skeptical about Phil

1188
01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:51.279
and and maybe he does have some
questions that he's still trying to get answers

1189
01:16:51.279 --> 01:16:54.840
to I don't know. I kind
of want to just posit that on.

1190
01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:58.960
You don't want to take over your
whole uh, your your whole intro there,

1191
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:03.560
Tom, Do you have anything No, No, I say no.

1192
01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:09.600
I understand exactly where you're coming from. I understand you perspective and how you

1193
01:17:09.640 --> 01:17:13.640
hold onto things from your past because
they mean something to you. Just can't

1194
01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:16.319
throw everything away from your religious past. You can't do that. That's not

1195
01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:20.319
that would be you would be like
as a psychopath or sociopath, if you

1196
01:17:20.439 --> 01:17:25.319
just didn't have any feelings or any
empathy for anything, that would be crazy.

1197
01:17:25.319 --> 01:17:28.399
Of course you wouldn't want to do
that. I understand I've got things,

1198
01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:31.479
you know that I still hold on
too because the culture, some of

1199
01:17:31.520 --> 01:17:35.439
my deep things inside of me just
because of they have meaning to me.

1200
01:17:35.560 --> 01:17:42.159
So I haven't you know that's understandable. Yes, But the reason I'm skeptical

1201
01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:45.840
about the church going to they just
going to churches because doctrine is doctrine is

1202
01:17:45.920 --> 01:17:54.199
doctrine. Churches, I'll have that
doctrine. The doctrine I feel preaches hate,

1203
01:17:54.960 --> 01:18:00.520
hate making people others. Doctrine is
still the doctrine. Has a church

1204
01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:05.000
changed their doctoral beliefs. Have they
stopped believing in these bad things? They

1205
01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:10.840
stopped just because they pant it way
way down and they try to brush over

1206
01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:14.039
it with a layer of frosting.
You get out of the frosting, it's

1207
01:18:14.079 --> 01:18:17.079
still a rotten pape. Well,
you know, I think gyptical. So

1208
01:18:17.479 --> 01:18:23.199
that's not why I think that.
I just I just think that, Yes,

1209
01:18:23.399 --> 01:18:27.520
an atheist, an atheist, I
guess an atheist. If an atheist

1210
01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:30.920
can get past the doctrine and go
to church, then that's on them.

1211
01:18:31.319 --> 01:18:35.760
That's why I'm skeptical though. But
an atheist that can just put a layer

1212
01:18:35.760 --> 01:18:41.680
of frosting on hate and pretend that's
not there when they walk into the church,

1213
01:18:42.279 --> 01:18:45.800
Hey, my hat's off to them. Truth. It sounds like,

1214
01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:47.800
and I have a lot of empathy. It sounds like there's been you know,

1215
01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:54.720
some trauma and in your experience with
the church and the doctrine, and

1216
01:18:54.760 --> 01:18:59.159
that's like completely understandable. Like a
good parallel to this too, is like

1217
01:18:59.239 --> 01:19:01.159
maybe some of the the listeners have
heard me or see me on this before,

1218
01:19:01.199 --> 01:19:03.079
and I like, breeze past it. I used to be Catholic and

1219
01:19:03.079 --> 01:19:06.279
I don't do this stuff. But
like I think part of my holding on

1220
01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:10.359
to this thing is like say,
I didn't have it as bad as others

1221
01:19:10.479 --> 01:19:13.279
had it, probably didn't have it
as bad as you truth, So I'm

1222
01:19:13.279 --> 01:19:15.279
like trying to breeze past that.
And that's like an whole Catholic guilt thing,

1223
01:19:15.640 --> 01:19:18.000
you know, like that, So
I'm like simultaneously breezing past it and

1224
01:19:18.079 --> 01:19:23.199
keeping on it. We really recommend
that you try recovering from religion, which

1225
01:19:23.239 --> 01:19:25.680
I'm sure you've heard us talk about
and all that fun stuff if you want

1226
01:19:25.720 --> 01:19:29.680
to walk past it, but like
this is a logical, understandable feeling for

1227
01:19:29.800 --> 01:19:31.600
you to have here at the same
time, you know, with religion,

1228
01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:38.079
there's three bees the belief, belonging, and behavior. People are always somewhere

1229
01:19:38.199 --> 01:19:42.079
on different elements of that spectrum,
including the churches, right of like what

1230
01:19:42.119 --> 01:19:44.520
we actually believe in, what we
don't, what we're subscribing to, and

1231
01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:47.239
what we don't And I can't imagine
that in Phil's church, they're they're like,

1232
01:19:47.399 --> 01:19:50.039
no, we don't care for Jesus, you know, like it's like

1233
01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:54.399
we're not talking about any of the
teachings or anything like that. But it

1234
01:19:54.520 --> 01:20:01.000
sounds like Phil is not necessarily involved
in the same sort of of doctrinal behavior

1235
01:20:01.039 --> 01:20:04.279
as yours, or at least as
recognizing it, maybe trying to influence it

1236
01:20:04.319 --> 01:20:08.680
from the inside. Trojan horse in
it. Phil, that's fantastic, or

1237
01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:11.439
there's or there's some other reason for
him doing it. It sounds like he's

1238
01:20:11.560 --> 01:20:14.640
looking for communities, looking for his
friends and hanging out with them, and

1239
01:20:14.680 --> 01:20:17.800
also doing it in his place where
he feels emotionally safe to maybe share his

1240
01:20:18.159 --> 01:20:21.640
counterpoints on these things, and these
folks are receptive to it. So I'd

1241
01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:26.199
rather take that audience. I'd rather
have the conversation than shut it off and

1242
01:20:26.239 --> 01:20:28.239
say, you know, you can't
be part of the club. Not that

1243
01:20:28.239 --> 01:20:30.600
that's what you're doing, but just
that that's how I'd looked at it.

1244
01:20:30.479 --> 01:20:34.079
Yeah, absolutely so, So Tom, that is a good segue to truth.

1245
01:20:34.319 --> 01:20:38.560
I just wanted to take Tom's comments
and use that as a segue to

1246
01:20:38.640 --> 01:20:42.039
kind of get into what my thoughts
are on that, and that is,

1247
01:20:42.239 --> 01:20:45.000
you know, you you see that
the church doctrine as being monolithic, and

1248
01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:49.239
granted you should because for several thousand
years it has been across tens of thousands

1249
01:20:49.239 --> 01:20:55.479
of miles and across time, but
we do see changes. We do see

1250
01:20:55.720 --> 01:20:59.920
you know, Phil even saying that
his church is actually welcoming to the l

1251
01:21:00.039 --> 01:21:02.840
GBTQ community, and that is not
something that we had fifty years ago,

1252
01:21:02.920 --> 01:21:05.960
you know, not something we had
fifteen hundred years ago, and it's something

1253
01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:11.439
that we're having now. And these
engagements, these conversations, and in a

1254
01:21:11.479 --> 01:21:15.039
way, what Tom and I are
doing here and having a conversation with you

1255
01:21:15.520 --> 01:21:18.920
may be the very same thing that
Phil is doing when he attends some of

1256
01:21:18.920 --> 01:21:23.800
these services, you know, just
being there, telling about who he is,

1257
01:21:24.399 --> 01:21:28.119
what's important to him. That opens
the door to possibilities to some of

1258
01:21:28.159 --> 01:21:32.319
this doctrine maybe getting watered down or
even ultimately disappearing, which is what we

1259
01:21:32.319 --> 01:21:35.960
can hope for. If it's if
it's a hateful doctrine, and I do

1260
01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:40.439
agree that it's a hateful doctrine and
put in the wrong hands, it is

1261
01:21:40.520 --> 01:21:45.560
proven to be devastating to humanity.
But you know, it seems like there

1262
01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:48.960
may be some opportunity for it to
be changed. And I get where you're

1263
01:21:48.960 --> 01:21:53.319
coming from. You know. A
wonderful contributor, a friend of the show,

1264
01:21:53.359 --> 01:21:59.399
a nonprofit, Jason Friedman feels that
all LGBTQ people should never never touch

1265
01:21:59.439 --> 01:22:01.079
religion, never go into a church, right, And I get it.

1266
01:22:01.119 --> 01:22:03.760
I get it. I understand where
he's coming from. Right, and you're

1267
01:22:03.920 --> 01:22:09.720
welcome and entitled to that hard line
approach. On the flip side, you

1268
01:22:09.720 --> 01:22:13.039
know, we don't, we don't
do. We don't gain any ground I

1269
01:22:13.079 --> 01:22:16.920
think by remaining inact. And so
that's where I'm gonna leave off my comments.

1270
01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:19.960
What are your thoughts on that truth? Well, I agree with the

1271
01:22:20.039 --> 01:22:24.680
person that said what was the name
that said a gay person to never go

1272
01:22:24.760 --> 01:22:29.000
into the really, oh, I
tell you that, Jason Freeman. Wonderful,

1273
01:22:29.560 --> 01:22:34.640
wonderful guy. Yeah. I don't
understand how they can get past that

1274
01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:39.399
and walk into a church either.
I'm I'm with him. I don't even

1275
01:22:39.840 --> 01:22:44.039
My oldest son is gay. I
mean I don't even. I mean I

1276
01:22:44.119 --> 01:22:47.039
look at him and I think,
what is the doctrine that the church that

1277
01:22:47.079 --> 01:22:51.680
Phil walks into holds, and what
that doctrine says about my son. I

1278
01:22:51.720 --> 01:22:55.800
can never do what Phil did because
I know what the doctrine says. So

1279
01:22:55.840 --> 01:22:57.960
I couldn't do. I can't even
need a Chick fil A, Okay,

1280
01:22:58.159 --> 01:23:01.439
So I mean I can't because I
can't get past So that is one of

1281
01:23:01.439 --> 01:23:06.319
the things the doctrine, and I
know Phil's church probably holds says about people

1282
01:23:06.600 --> 01:23:10.960
like my son. What do you
want? I know that I guess like

1283
01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:13.560
truth, like the way I like
to think about things like how to make

1284
01:23:14.560 --> 01:23:18.159
how to make these decisions, like
I don't care if Phil does, that's

1285
01:23:18.239 --> 01:23:24.399
him. I'm just skeptical. You
know that an atheist, that is an

1286
01:23:24.439 --> 01:23:30.920
atheist, And there's you know,
how an atheist can allow a walk into

1287
01:23:31.039 --> 01:23:36.840
church to hold that doctrine. So, you know, an atheist is many

1288
01:23:36.880 --> 01:23:43.039
people have different We're not all going
to ever agree on it. You know,

1289
01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:45.319
it's just an atheist. And get
to the point of being atheist.

1290
01:23:45.680 --> 01:23:50.199
You've examined, you've gone through,
you've seen things, done things. You

1291
01:23:50.319 --> 01:23:54.680
get to a point. I guess
there's a line that you know you will

1292
01:23:54.680 --> 01:23:58.199
not cross a red line, you
know, come to me, you won't

1293
01:23:58.239 --> 01:24:01.840
cross that line. And so I
guess us you know Phil's red line is

1294
01:24:01.920 --> 01:24:08.039
different. Well, you know,
truth, I your son, your son

1295
01:24:08.239 --> 01:24:12.279
has a great mother. Really honestly, you know, I can hear the

1296
01:24:12.279 --> 01:24:15.560
passion in your voice and for you
to be nervous and still call and advocate

1297
01:24:16.159 --> 01:24:18.720
for your son and people like him. Uh, you know, I think

1298
01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:23.159
is commendable. What I don't want
to do, though, is kind of

1299
01:24:23.199 --> 01:24:27.000
adopt this idea that atheists need to
be the same, because you know what,

1300
01:24:27.039 --> 01:24:29.920
that turns into a religion, right, and that's the very thing,

1301
01:24:30.199 --> 01:24:32.159
that's the very thing that uh,
you know, we wanna we want to

1302
01:24:32.199 --> 01:24:35.199
avoid. Uh. And I'm not
calling you a theist by any means.

1303
01:24:35.239 --> 01:24:38.600
I'm just saying, you know,
uh, we hear you, We hear

1304
01:24:38.640 --> 01:24:41.680
your critique. I'm sure Phil hears
the critique as well. I mean we

1305
01:24:41.680 --> 01:24:45.039
we already know he does. But
I just want to say that that you

1306
01:24:45.039 --> 01:24:46.760
know, we've we've heard you.
We're with you, uh, and you

1307
01:24:46.760 --> 01:24:50.560
know, we hope that you and
your son continue to have a great life

1308
01:24:50.640 --> 01:24:54.680
and and can kind of not have
to deal with some of the things that

1309
01:24:54.720 --> 01:24:57.439
you may have dealt with. So
I want to thank you very much for

1310
01:24:57.560 --> 01:25:01.239
calling, and we are going to
move on and get to some other callers,

1311
01:25:01.560 --> 01:25:05.760
and we are gonna talk with Joshua, who's been waiting a while,

1312
01:25:05.760 --> 01:25:10.840
and we appreciate you, Joshua.
Joshua he him call from South Carolina.

1313
01:25:10.880 --> 01:25:14.399
Does he think or excuse me,
he asks, do we think that an

1314
01:25:14.399 --> 01:25:18.000
anti natalist position is a good position
to hold. All right, So Joshua,

1315
01:25:18.159 --> 01:25:20.920
you are on with Tom and Jimmy, and how can we help you

1316
01:25:20.960 --> 01:25:27.560
today? Hello Tom, Hello Jimmy. I so yeah, I'm an atheist.

1317
01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:31.760
Actually, I want to preface that
so it doesn't seem like I'm accusing

1318
01:25:31.800 --> 01:25:40.520
anyone is anything. But I feel
like I have noticed a lot more anti

1319
01:25:40.600 --> 01:25:45.560
natalism sentiments just generally, and it
also kind of seems like they're more prevalent

1320
01:25:45.720 --> 01:25:51.319
in the atheist community. I was
wondering, first, am I crazy?

1321
01:25:51.399 --> 01:25:55.479
Or have you? Do you agree
or do you disagree? Have you noticed

1322
01:25:55.520 --> 01:25:58.079
the same thing or or not at
all? Go ahead, Tom, I

1323
01:25:58.920 --> 01:26:01.560
haven't of you don't think so?
I mean, I I don't know a

1324
01:26:01.600 --> 01:26:05.079
whole lot of open atheists, to
be honest with you, you know,

1325
01:26:05.159 --> 01:26:09.439
in my in the community that I'm
in, I think religion is like something

1326
01:26:09.479 --> 01:26:13.279
that's pretty taboo to talk about,
and I don't talk about a lot.

1327
01:26:14.079 --> 01:26:16.359
I I feel like, I mean, I know some atheists that have children.

1328
01:26:16.359 --> 01:26:21.720
They've adopted to to uh, to
same sex married couple that has children.

1329
01:26:21.840 --> 01:26:26.479
And you know, while some people
may think that it's better to not

1330
01:26:26.800 --> 01:26:30.600
have children, or maybe it's not
for them, I don't think that that's

1331
01:26:30.600 --> 01:26:33.960
an indicator of where they stand religiously. I've never actually, I don't think

1332
01:26:34.000 --> 01:26:38.079
I'm familiar with. I don't think
i've ever actually heard the two be tied

1333
01:26:38.119 --> 01:26:41.560
together. Can you shed a little
bit more light on what you're talking about,

1334
01:26:41.680 --> 01:26:46.000
Joshua? Sure, Yeah, I
know. I wouldn't say, you

1335
01:26:46.039 --> 01:26:53.000
know, one necessarily indicates the other. I'm just I don't know, maybe

1336
01:26:53.039 --> 01:26:56.399
I'm maybe I'm way off the mark, but I it seems like there's a

1337
01:26:56.439 --> 01:27:01.880
pattern of you know, like my
much more religious family members have way more

1338
01:27:01.960 --> 01:27:06.079
kids. If you think of like
the Dugger family for example, like there's

1339
01:27:06.119 --> 01:27:12.159
a whole ideology, what do they
call it? Quiverfull that you just have

1340
01:27:12.239 --> 01:27:16.520
as many kids as possible. I
don't. I mean, I'm not criticizing

1341
01:27:16.520 --> 01:27:18.840
one way or the other. I
guess I should put that out there.

1342
01:27:19.359 --> 01:27:21.880
You know, if if someone wants
kids, they should have them. If

1343
01:27:21.880 --> 01:27:26.039
they don't, then they shouldn't.
Yeah, it's there, right, I

1344
01:27:26.079 --> 01:27:28.680
mean that we don't. I don't
need to know what the reason is.

1345
01:27:28.760 --> 01:27:30.239
I don't, you know. I
mean, live your life the way you

1346
01:27:30.279 --> 01:27:33.479
want to live it, you know. I guess we're not as atheists,

1347
01:27:33.479 --> 01:27:38.359
we're not getting the have kids,
so we can spread the good atheist word

1348
01:27:38.560 --> 01:27:42.399
again, Like we're not that good
about being congruent on all the things besides

1349
01:27:42.439 --> 01:27:45.640
the one which is not the god
up there, or at least not believe

1350
01:27:45.640 --> 01:27:48.279
in it. Yeah, I mean, should we have more kids spread the

1351
01:27:48.279 --> 01:27:53.000
good atheist word? Hey, we're
here right now, you're calling in this

1352
01:27:53.159 --> 01:27:56.640
is it right? Let's have children? Yeah? I'll have kids. And

1353
01:27:56.680 --> 01:28:00.800
you know, my my perspective is
like I want my kids to do better

1354
01:28:00.840 --> 01:28:03.680
than I did. You know,
I want them to affect the world positively.

1355
01:28:04.000 --> 01:28:08.479
Uh. The species is gonna carry
on if I can have a positive

1356
01:28:08.520 --> 01:28:12.800
impact by giving my children the things
that I didn't have, whether it be

1357
01:28:13.239 --> 01:28:15.439
you know, stuff, or whether
it be uh, you know, an

1358
01:28:15.479 --> 01:28:19.359
ideology, a means of thinking,
teaching them how to think and not what

1359
01:28:19.479 --> 01:28:21.920
to think. Uh. I think
that that's a win. I think it's

1360
01:28:21.920 --> 01:28:26.079
a win for humanity if we can
all just get on that page. And

1361
01:28:26.159 --> 01:28:29.520
so I felt, you know,
I feel pretty good about having kids.

1362
01:28:29.560 --> 01:28:31.800
And I also feel good for people
who decide I don't want to bring any

1363
01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:34.119
children into this world. I can
Hey, I get it, you know,

1364
01:28:34.359 --> 01:28:39.000
Or they just want to travel save
their money, because let me tell

1365
01:28:39.039 --> 01:28:42.039
you something, kids will, kids
will take some things away from me.

1366
01:28:42.079 --> 01:28:45.920
It's a sacrifice. So uh but
yeah, man, I mean I'm all

1367
01:28:45.960 --> 01:28:48.560
about uh, you know, live
and let live do your thing as long

1368
01:28:48.600 --> 01:28:53.079
as you're not harming anyone and don't
harm yourself either. But you know that's

1369
01:28:53.079 --> 01:28:56.199
that's your decision. I guess.
Anyway, I don't know what what do

1370
01:28:56.239 --> 01:28:58.439
you think, Tom, I mean, as do you think there's some specific

1371
01:28:58.439 --> 01:29:01.479
thing Joshua about about atheists where we're
getting the hey, knock it off with

1372
01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:06.039
the kids type of doctrine handed down
from anybody or anything. I mean,

1373
01:29:06.079 --> 01:29:13.239
maybe it's just the uh, I
guess as a reaction to that that other

1374
01:29:13.840 --> 01:29:19.199
doctrine that some religious people seem to
be subscribed to. I mean, I

1375
01:29:19.199 --> 01:29:23.319
guess that makes sense, right,
Yeah, I think too. Maybe maybe

1376
01:29:23.359 --> 01:29:28.600
you're you're noticing a congruency between cohorts
of people, you know, if if

1377
01:29:28.600 --> 01:29:30.600
you're I don't know if there's anything
to back this uption mean, they we're

1378
01:29:30.640 --> 01:29:32.960
going to get a lot of hate
mail, but I would expect that if

1379
01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:40.159
you're like really investigating the the God
question, one of the best methods to

1380
01:29:40.199 --> 01:29:43.880
do that is science, and if
you adopt that for that question. Perhaps

1381
01:29:43.880 --> 01:29:46.479
it makes sense to adopt that for
other questions of you know, what's going

1382
01:29:46.520 --> 01:29:48.880
on in the world, because once
you lose God, then it's not like

1383
01:29:48.920 --> 01:29:53.960
you don't have the question still there, right, It's just that's not the

1384
01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:56.399
avenue. That's not the way I'm
going to go try to answer it.

1385
01:29:57.039 --> 01:30:00.760
And again like science can't answer all
the questions, but they can't answer some

1386
01:30:00.880 --> 01:30:04.039
questions, and then we're working on
other ones. And that's the verb science

1387
01:30:04.199 --> 01:30:08.800
being used to do that thing.
Obviously scientists isn't you know, it's not

1388
01:30:08.840 --> 01:30:12.239
the equivalent of a priest in our
world here, that's not how it works

1389
01:30:12.479 --> 01:30:16.800
again, spectrum of belief, spectrum
of experience and why we have challenges as

1390
01:30:16.840 --> 01:30:20.600
atheists, all coming together on stuff
from time to time. But I guess

1391
01:30:20.680 --> 01:30:24.520
on on, you know, to
do the kids thing. I don't know

1392
01:30:24.600 --> 01:30:27.359
what if I think about myself and
I think about you, Jimmy, like

1393
01:30:27.399 --> 01:30:30.880
why we did actually do that?
Maybe maybe it was the stuff that was

1394
01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:35.319
beaten into us as kids growing up
religiously, but I don't think so none

1395
01:30:35.359 --> 01:30:40.319
of that hit me. But the
hey, I want the opportunity to do

1396
01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:44.000
better that. I think there are
animal instincts too, of like, you

1397
01:30:44.039 --> 01:30:46.279
know, the things involved to get
to those kids to begin with, and

1398
01:30:46.319 --> 01:30:49.640
then what you want to do once
they're here, because it's transformational, at

1399
01:30:49.720 --> 01:30:51.960
least it was for me. Of
like, all right, there was this

1400
01:30:53.039 --> 01:30:58.279
old Tom and now there's this new
Tom that has these responsibilities and you know,

1401
01:30:58.960 --> 01:31:00.960
instincts that were than before. I
don't know, Yeah, yeah,

1402
01:31:01.079 --> 01:31:04.600
yeah, I agree. I mean
I feel feel the kind of love for

1403
01:31:04.760 --> 01:31:09.800
my children that I can't equate to
anything. Uh. And it is a

1404
01:31:09.920 --> 01:31:13.640
very human experience to have, and
me being a human uh and wanting to

1405
01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:15.800
have positive experiences, you know,
I think it fits. I didn't think

1406
01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:18.359
that I would ever get married,
got married pretty late in life, met

1407
01:31:18.359 --> 01:31:23.039
my wife, loved her, still
love her. I love my wife,

1408
01:31:23.520 --> 01:31:27.000
you know more, and felt something
for another human being that I didn't think

1409
01:31:27.000 --> 01:31:29.359
i'd ever feel, you know,
and then we took this journey together.

1410
01:31:29.680 --> 01:31:31.239
Uh and uh, you know,
it's just been a blast. Man,

1411
01:31:31.319 --> 01:31:34.039
it's been a blast. And uh
I can I you know, I have

1412
01:31:34.119 --> 01:31:38.279
no no opinion one way or the
other. I think people should just do

1413
01:31:38.319 --> 01:31:40.720
what they want. But if you
want a dad's opinion, man, do

1414
01:31:40.800 --> 01:31:44.000
I love my kids, so I
think uh, I think that's what we

1415
01:31:44.079 --> 01:31:46.920
got for you, Joshua. I
really appreciate your call and uh, you

1416
01:31:46.960 --> 01:31:50.960
know, make sure you keep listening
in call us back. Uh and uh

1417
01:31:51.039 --> 01:31:55.039
yeah, thanks for being a viewer. And and when it comes to thank

1418
01:31:55.079 --> 01:31:57.840
you, so, I want to
thank all of our callers today. You

1419
01:31:57.840 --> 01:32:00.760
know, I think we had some
really great conversations. I think we talked

1420
01:32:00.760 --> 01:32:04.560
about a lot of important topics,
and I think we had some some you

1421
01:32:04.600 --> 01:32:08.399
know, a nice, very nice
super chat. We have some shoutouts.

1422
01:32:08.560 --> 01:32:12.199
We're really we're really making connections out
there. Want to thank our top five

1423
01:32:12.239 --> 01:32:15.239
patrons. I want to thank everybody
that donates to us on Patreon, and

1424
01:32:15.279 --> 01:32:18.720
if you want to hear your name, then please consider supporting us at tiny

1425
01:32:18.760 --> 01:32:25.239
dot cc, forward slash, Patreon, uh, patreon thh and So I

1426
01:32:25.239 --> 01:32:27.920
think that's going to do it for
us today. Folks. Remember, uh,

1427
01:32:28.359 --> 01:32:30.720
we did give you a prompt for
next week, so you know,

1428
01:32:30.760 --> 01:32:35.720
don't let that go by without answering
it. What is the new holiday ritual

1429
01:32:35.880 --> 01:32:39.840
that people should adopt? You get
to make your own, so reply in

1430
01:32:39.880 --> 01:32:44.000
the comments and tune in at the
beginning of next week's episode to hear what

1431
01:32:44.039 --> 01:32:46.640
those top three answers are, maybe
you'll end up there. So Tom,

1432
01:32:47.079 --> 01:32:50.319
you know, how can more people
find out about you? I know you're

1433
01:32:50.399 --> 01:32:54.479
active out there on your own,
doing your own thing. Why don't you,

1434
01:32:54.479 --> 01:32:56.640
you know, tell us a little
bit about that before we get going.

1435
01:32:56.800 --> 01:33:00.720
For sure, you can find me
on our podcast on the website ww

1436
01:33:00.840 --> 01:33:03.720
dot whoever we got here dot com
or www dot however we go there dot

1437
01:33:03.720 --> 01:33:08.199
com. We got both domains and
they both work. So find Morris about

1438
01:33:08.359 --> 01:33:12.239
more about us there, jimmy yourself. How do the folks get you or

1439
01:33:12.239 --> 01:33:15.399
are they just gonna You're gonna slide
into their dms on Twitter and start,

1440
01:33:15.560 --> 01:33:17.439
yeah, you know agreeing, Hey, yeah, I was off on that

1441
01:33:18.000 --> 01:33:21.199
comment I made And here's my video. Yeah, I'm very sneaky. I'm

1442
01:33:21.279 --> 01:33:25.920
very sneaky, folks. So if
you call me names in the comments,

1443
01:33:25.960 --> 01:33:28.039
you're gonna hear from me. So, but don't call me names. That's

1444
01:33:28.079 --> 01:33:30.359
not an invitation, uh to put
me down? Okay, Uh, but

1445
01:33:30.560 --> 01:33:34.880
you know I I frequently I do
a talk hethan once or twice a month.

1446
01:33:34.920 --> 01:33:39.199
You know, I do a nonprofits
once a month, maybe twice sometimes.

1447
01:33:39.239 --> 01:33:42.279
But uh, you know, I'm
I'm gonna stay active with the ACA

1448
01:33:42.359 --> 01:33:44.760
I'm gonna keep doing my thing.
I'm gonna keep trying to get better.

1449
01:33:44.880 --> 01:33:46.319
You know, I wanna I want
to take pointers from people. I want

1450
01:33:46.319 --> 01:33:48.800
to be around the greats. Uh. You know I got people like you,

1451
01:33:48.920 --> 01:33:51.960
Tom who Uh Man, what a
great experience today, what a great

1452
01:33:51.960 --> 01:33:55.520
show? You know. Uh.
I think you bring a lot to the

1453
01:33:55.520 --> 01:33:58.199
table and I'm happy I finally got
a chance to work with you. And

1454
01:33:58.560 --> 01:34:01.760
you know, this is just this
is a this is a worthwhile thing to

1455
01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:05.239
do with my time and I'm gonna
be here so people, people just keep

1456
01:34:05.279 --> 01:34:08.880
tuning in. Uh. You might
be able to find me on X I'm

1457
01:34:09.439 --> 01:34:14.119
Jimmy Underscore Junior Underscore and Y for
New York and we can have some conversations

1458
01:34:14.119 --> 01:34:15.159
there. But you know, I'm
creeping around the comments. Man, I

1459
01:34:15.199 --> 01:34:17.960
want to know what people thought about
us, So, uh, you will

1460
01:34:17.960 --> 01:34:20.960
be hearing from me. Tom.
I hope we get a chance to work

1461
01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:25.079
together again. I'm sure that we
will. And uh, you know,

1462
01:34:25.119 --> 01:34:29.479
before we go, I want to
give out some lover rings. So I'm

1463
01:34:29.479 --> 01:34:31.800
giving lover rings out, giving lover
rings out to all of our callers today.

1464
01:34:31.840 --> 01:34:33.600
That's who my lover rings are going
to. Tom, who are you

1465
01:34:33.640 --> 01:34:39.039
sending the lover rings out to I'll
do it for everybody who was listening to

1466
01:34:39.079 --> 01:34:43.439
the calls and felt like our caller
Truth six sixty six, and it was

1467
01:34:43.479 --> 01:34:45.239
like, I don't know if I
want to call her, do it?

1468
01:34:45.439 --> 01:34:47.399
Do it, you'll feel better,
get it out, release it. Talk

1469
01:34:47.439 --> 01:34:50.159
to us. We want to hear
from you, so please, that's what

1470
01:34:50.159 --> 01:34:53.720
this community is all about. You
don't have to be an atheist, you

1471
01:34:53.760 --> 01:34:56.760
don't have to be a theist,
you don't have to be anyst You can

1472
01:34:56.840 --> 01:35:00.199
just call us and have a conversation. Yeah, that's right, and you

1473
01:35:00.199 --> 01:35:02.199
can also stick around after the show
or or join us on discord. I

1474
01:35:02.239 --> 01:35:05.880
should say, because myself, Tom, I don't know if you're joining us.

1475
01:35:05.920 --> 01:35:11.239
Did you say you were waiting for
me to answer that. Yeah,

1476
01:35:11.239 --> 01:35:14.760
I'll be there. The Great Richard
Gilliver will be there, Kelly LOFLTT will

1477
01:35:14.760 --> 01:35:16.039
be there. I mean, we
got you know, those are two faces

1478
01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:18.960
that belong to the ACA Mount Rushmore, and I'm glad that we're gonna do

1479
01:35:19.439 --> 01:35:23.520
a discord with them. So we
will see you there in just a few

1480
01:35:23.520 --> 01:35:27.000
moments, folks. And remember,
uh, if you don't believe, then

1481
01:35:27.039 --> 01:35:30.399
this is your community and we appreciate
you being here, but if you do

1482
01:35:30.520 --> 01:35:32.680
believe, we don't hate you,
Tom, we don't we love you.

1483
01:35:33.399 --> 01:35:40.119
We're just not convinced. We're just
not convinced. So uh, just all

1484
01:35:40.199 --> 01:36:04.199
right, great, We want the
truth, So watch Truth Wanted Live Friday

1485
01:36:04.279 --> 01:36:10.600
at seven pm Central. Visit tiny
dot cc slash y t tw and call

1486
01:36:10.680 --> 01:36:15.039
into the show at five one two
nine nine one nine two four two,

1487
01:36:15.359 --> 01:36:19.479
or connect to the show online at
tiny dot cc slash call tw