We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Kashinski,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show
at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST.
Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, leave a review. We
appreciate that so much, and make sure to also subscribe to the premium version
of the Federalist dot com as well. I'm joined today by one of the
probably original Federalist Radio Hour guests, a longtime friend of the show, Kelsey
Boehler. She is the director of Storytelling with our friends over at the Independent
Women's Forum. We're in full disclosure, I am also a senior fellow.
Kelsey, Welcome back to Federalist Radio Hour. Hey Emily, it's so great
to be back, and thank you for pronouncing my last name right. You
know, it's like not a complicated last name, but a lot of people
mispronounce it. Well. I remember when you got married you told everyone like
you started adding it to emails and stuff like, it's pronounced like polar yea
bowler. It's never left me. Uh So, Kelsey, you're out with
a spectacular new series over at IWF with your colleagues like Andrea mw And it
is just I was watching you guys on Megan Kelly and I'm so glad Megan
covered this. I'm so glad you guys covered this. The story of California's
interpretation of sex and gender identity in prisons one of the most undertold stories of
this radical transformation to society we've undergone in the last decade. So let's just
start from the very very beginning, Kelsey, what on earth happened in California
and how did you decide to take on this subject. Yeah, so,
California, like a handful of other states at this point, a few years
ago, passed a law called Senate Bill one thirty two that allows inmates who
identify as transgender or non binary, whatever their identity is, to be housed
in a correctional facility that aligns with their gender identity rather than their biological sex.
So, of course this opened the floodgates to allow biological men into women's
prison facilities. Prior to that, these decisions were already being made on a
case by case basis, So there were the occasional men who identify as transgender
in women's prisons, and that alone created its own problems. But when Governor
Gabham Newsom signed this bill into law, all of a sudden, it just
really opened the doors for men to move over to the women's prisons for a
variety of reasons. From my understanding, you know, there's a handful of
them who might actually really believe they are transgender, if you can say there's
such a thing. And then there's also, of course others who are taking
advantage of this new law or a variety of reasons. And in order to
qualify to move into the women's prisons, I mean it's hard to even use
that word qualify, because all you have to do is declare you are a
woman. In the state will treat you as such. You don't need any
of these so called gender surgeries, you don't even need to be on cross
sex hormones. You just need to say what you believe you are in the
state will treat you as such. And of course this has subjected already vulnerable
women to very unfortunate instances. Some of them have been sexually harassed, even
sexually assaulted by biological men. For some of them, they don't even need
to be sexually harassed or assaulted, to be traumatized by being forced to live
in a very tight living cell with biological men. Because for those of us
who are in the free world and who have no experience behind bars, when
these women are in prison, they're sharing a very tight living space with typically
other women. So for the first woman we featured in our series, Jennifer
Barrella, she describes living in an eight person cell where you share your toilet
and shower and bug beds with eight other individuals. And typically these individuals are
supposed to be women. But she was one of the first to have to
share this living space with biological men, not once, but on two different
occasions. And one of these men, who goes by Ava Reeves, has
a very al say, frightening, serious track record. He is he's in
prison for murder, and he's this huge, daunting figure. And imagine these
women, you know a lot of them are like five foot two, and
all of a sudden, they're in an eight person living cell with a six
foot two male who is in prison maybe for murder, maybe for rape,
maybe for some other type of violence against women. It is very traumatizing to
these women. Many of whom are trying to rehabilitate themselves to be forced to
live in these tight quarters with biological men. It's wrong on so many occasions,
and it's really just yet another example of the fallout of gender ideology,
and in a way that was never discussed when you know, legislation like or
not even legislation, you know, executive action, bureaucratic decisions were just plowed
through relating to sex and gender. Because Kelsey correct me if I'm wrong,
but I believe it took a couple of years. But when feminists recognized what
was happening, people who are sort of broadly derisively referred to as turfs,
it's probably best characterized, so people have kind of embraced that. But when
they realized what was happening, a small group of them started recognizing the disastrous
ends of the sex gender conflation, specifically in California's prisons. Because some of
these stories that the media hasn't told and that you guys tell so beautifully,
they are tragic and terrifying, right. And one of the things I have
to point out is while my colleague Andrea and you and I were doing research
for this project, we were looking on YouTube about what other news coverage has
this the implications of these policies for prisons received and uh, you know,
we found some reports from NBC News, Vice News, al Jazeera covering this
policy change in California from the perspective of transgender identified inmates. Of course men,
mind you, because this is all always about men, This is never
about women. So it is these these news reports were put out there talking
about the consequences and the changes, how the changes were going to positively impact
these biological men who were gaining access to the women's prisons. What was so
amazing to me is these reporters apparently didn't think to stop and turn around and
ask the biological women how these policy changes would affect them. I mean,
imagine, on any issue, this brand new policy comes into effect, and
we're not going to turn around and ask the largest population, the largest sector,
that of individuals who stand to be affected by it. Yeah. I
just can't help but think these policies are always for the benefit of men into
the detriment of women. I also thought, and again, folks can read
this and watch this at IWF dot org. I love that it's both in
the written format and in the video format. I think that's fantastic. The
video is incredible because you can see Jennifer, you can hear from her,
and you sort of see I think the psychological toll all this has taken on
her. And I'm sure, Kelsey, as you talked to many of the
other people who went through this, it's similar. But again, it's so
crazy. I don't know. I thought you guys did a really good job
handling the issue of many of these women you deserve to be in prison,
and you know they've come to terms with that. You know, Jennifer,
for example, is you know, found her faith basically in prison and has
this amazing story. But we are as a society, you know, it's
like the last group of people that we tend to care about, and yet
the consequences were so devastating. I just thought, I'm curious for your perspective
on this, Kelsey, because I imagine it was interesting to kind of grapple
with that. But I thought you guys did it really well. Yeah,
that's an interesting question because I definitely had to take a pause heading into this
project and ask like, are these the women we should be fighting for because
some of them are behind bars for very heinous crimes, and then you know,
you start talking to them and you learn about the injustices they are facing
behind bars as a result of these policies, and you realize, you know,
there's no way to defend this. If we can't defend them, who
else will And unfortunately, up until this point, nobody else would. I
will give to the Women's Liberation Front, you know, use that term TURFS.
This is a very leftist organization. Yes, they have been excellent on
standing up for marginalized women and the true definition of women. And they were
one of the first to come in and actually file a lawsuit on behalf of
some of these female inmates who are being harmed as a result of this policy.
So we're very grateful to them. And we know with all of these
issues, we we need people fighting back on the legal front, we need
people telling stories and you know, fighting fighting in the media and so forth.
But I think it's important to know these women are very we're very nervous
to speak out, and you can hear that in Jennifer's voice. She was
so shy and timid during our interview. And I mean, for all of
these women, it's for a number of reasons. But first I think for
so long they thought, you know, they don't deserve a voice, you
know, because of their history, and that nobody would care if they tried
to speak out, and then worse, many of them feared retribution. So
a lot of the women are looking for redemption when they are in prison and
working very hard to do what they can to right the wrongs that they've committed
that landed them in prison, turn their life around work hard. For many
of them, that also means finding their faith to get them qualified to be
released from prison. And even when they're released, they still don't they're not
free because they're still on parole and somebody could take away their parole. They
could end up back behind bars. And so there's so many reasons for female
inmates not to speak out about the effects of these policies because we know the
powers that be support these policies and if they challenge them, they have many
ways of also punishing these female inmates. So I think that's a huge reason
why for so long they didn't feel safe to speak out. But we know
that when one person speaks out, it makes it easier for the next and
the next. We saw this in the area of women's sports. You know,
for Selena Soul was one of the first brave young women to speak out
about what happened to her when she was forced to compete against biological men.
And then we've seen what happened after Riley Gaines became a huge public figure advocating
on behalf of women sports. More and more women feel safe to speak out,
I hope, and I think what's already happening in the women's prison space
is that even with just the release of our first video, and this is
an entire series, so we're going to be continuing to release more and more
stories over the coming weeks. We're going to see more female inmates feel brave
enough and find the courage they need to speak out and tell the truth about
the harmful effects of these policies and the discrimination they are facing by being forced
to share their very private, intimate living spaces with biological men. We're all
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more. Yeah, I'm really curious about to sort of flesh out even more
those thoughts about because you were from the very beginning talking to sources involved with
the women's sports world, really from the very beginning as this started happening.
Before we get to that, Kelsey, could you talk to us a little
bit more, in some more detail too, about the pragmatic effects of being
in prisons, you know, the physical space of a prison. I know
you talked to Jennifer and many of the other women about this. You know,
not all prisons the same. Obviously, there's a difference in people's experiences
based on crimes that they're convicted of and all of that. In some places,
people are sharing incredibly tiny and obviously intimate spaces. Tell us a little
bit about those stories about you know, sharing spaces, being a domestic violence
victim, and then maybe you know, seeing somebody who's committed domestic violence or
seeing male genitalia in the showers, just because of the physical space and what
you heard from the women. Can you tell us more about that? Yeah,
I'll paint one picture for you that really stuck with me. So imagine
you are behind bars awesibly for you know, a heinous crime. But you
know what led you to that crime is probably a very difficult life where maybe
you suffered domestic violence or sexual abuse as a child, as a young girl,
and now you're in prison trying to turn around your life. And you're
living in this very tight living cell where you have a bunk bed and you're
on the bottom bunk, and all of a sudden, a male enters your
living space, a biological male who is in prison for a violent crime against
women, possibly rape, possibly murder, some pretty awful stuff. And all
of a sudden, you know, you're climbing up to the top bunk in
your nightgown and there's a biological mail below below you. Every single night,
imagine how demeaning each step on that ladder would feel to have a biological male
who's behind bars for some type of violence against women and women and every single
night you have to step up into your top bunk in your nightgown, use
the bathroom, use the shower, change, share very close living spaces with
this man. It is humiliating. It is the very definition of cruel and
unusual punishment. The cruel and unusual punishment point is one that shows up in
your story. And it's very very interesting. What legal recourse do some of
these women have if any I don't even know what's been tried in the space
or experimented within the space, caucaid, What options do women in California prisons
have? Yeah, it's interesting because I asked some attorneys. You know,
inmates have protection against facing cruel and unusual punishment, Like this is pretty clearly
the definition of that. No and no, and you know the answer is
yeah, like most people would agree this is the definition. But you know,
like all of these issues are, it's an uphill legal battle being played
out in often very liberal courts in very liberal states. We also need to
recognize there are state prisons and there are federal prisons, and this is really
a problem that has spread nationwide. We know the Biden administration has perverseed the
definition of women and has also opened the doors for biological men to be housed
in women's prisons. And so we have seen a handful of lawmakers Senator Ted
Cruz and Senator Mike Lee come to mind, who have pressed our bureaucratic officials
about the implications of these policies. And what's so striking is they won't even
give us numbers on exactly how many men are being housed in women's prisons because
according to this whole ideology, you're not a transgender woman. You are a
woman, and so that's how they're going to track you. So they are
very intentionally keeping this issue hidden from the public in all these ways. And
I think it's going to take more. I think it's going to take more
stories, more women's stories, to make people aware that this is happening.
It's going to take lawmakers pressing for answers, exposing exactly how many men are
now inside women's prisons and the implications of that from the federal perspective, and
you know, statewide. I do think that when you hear these stories,
it's very hard to defend these policies. Like I would love to hear how
these liberal lawmakers in California feel after watching what Jennifer says, and I really
hope that once we tell enough of them, they won't be able to walk
away way and say this doesn't matter, because that's telling these women they don't
matter, and although they're behind bars, they do matter. And this brings
us I think, uh back to that question of what you saw happen as
you dove into covering the women's sports world especially, I mean the stories from
Connecticut. You were there so early and were doing such detailed reporting, and
those really changed the country. I mean, those girls paved the way for
Riley Gains. Were not particularly political. We're you know, sort of brave,
but again not you know, ready to just they weren't their entire let's
say, goal wasn't to become involved in politics. It wasn't front of mine
for them. They just wanted to run track. And those stories started to
pop up everywhere, and because that, you know, different people got involved
in different legal challenges. It start to it started to give an example for
other communities to follow, for other attorneys to follow, for other parents to
follow. Now that you know you sort of saw that happen, Kelsey,
even though this is clearly a much more sympathetic demographic, which is young women
who are you just ready to make waves in the world, hard working,
all of that contrasted with the convicted criminals. I mean, you can choose
which one pretty clearly is going to be a more persuasive, persuasive example.
But still, this stuff makes a difference. As these stories pick up,
it makes a difference. Do you expect to see maybe a similar pattern here?
Well, Emily, I almost you know, a few months ago,
before I dove into these stories, I would have agreed with what you said,
because certainly the women's sports stories are easier to tell, they seemingly are
more sympathetic. Because are we even capable of grading sympathy for women who have
committed hate crimes? I don't know, And that's not necessarily what we're trying
to do in this project. We're just trying to show the public the effects
of these policies, and I think the end result of that actually is sympathy,
because nobody would want somebody they cared about suffering through this humiliation and abuse
on a daily basis. But the reaction to our first episode in the series
has kind of blown me away and given me a renewed sense of faith in
humanity because I think two things are happening. One, people do actually care
about these women, They care about female inmates and them having justice and dignity
when they're behind bars. And then they also realize how quickly this policy exposes
the perversion and the flaws in the entire geology behind gender, behind the whole
sex and gender debate we're having in this country. Because perhaps in the space
of women's sports, it's easier to, you know, convince people that trans
women are women. But when you're actually placing so called trans women inside an
eight person living cell where the doors are locked shut every single night, with
seven other biological women, it's pretty clear that trans women are not women,
that in fact, the individual in there with seven other women poses a direct
threat and a direct danger to the other women. It is no doubt an
unfair advantage. I mean, these these men again are often behind bars for
comitting sex crimes against women, and they are transferring into the women's prison with
the very body part that got them behind bars in the first place. And
so yeah, I just I think the when we talk about gender ideology in
the women's prison space, it just so quickly and radically exposes this ideology for
what it is and what it is is completely false, of course, and
you know from the perspective of a Christian it's clear. I mean, even
in the verse before Christ talks about the least of these, how we treat
the least of these, he's specifically talking about people who are sick, people
who are in prison. There's, you know, immense need obviously for Christians.
Some Christians are amazing about ministering to people in prison, but you know,
it's a very important part of our society, and there's it's so important
to prepare people to integrate into society without the cycle logical scarring of having a
sleep next to a man when you're in there for maybe retaliating against you retaliated
against a man who's abusing you. I mean, these stories are just so
profoundly messed up that it's just Calsie. I'm so glad to hear that the
response has been so good, because I think when you consider what's really happening,
it just again becomes clear as day that we are so far beyond compassion
and humanity. And this is another good example causey of the trend, you
know, whether it's insisting that homeless people be able to camp outside in the
winter. That's a thing that happened in my neighborhood. You're wanting to see
the advocates for the homeless, we're protesting clearing the camps, so in effect,
they were saying, we want more people to sleep in the cold.
This is basically that it is. And you know, I remember Amy,
one of the subjects of our next documentary that we're rolling out, another former
inmate who was behind bars with trans identifying individuals. She's carried the burden for
a long time of when she was released from prison, she became she started
an organization called Women to Women, and her intention was to help women on
their way out to re enter society with whatever basic services or needs that they
needed to reintegrate into society. Instead of doing that, all of a sudden,
she became inundated with messages and phone calls from women telling them all the
different ways they were being harmed by this policy and how they can't speak out
and how nobody cared. And she's had to walk with this emotion old burden
for years where she feels she left these women behind in this very vulnerable situation.
And when I asked her why should the public care about these women?
You know, why are you devoting your life to helping them? She said,
If not me, then who? And she is absolutely right, And
I think, you know, I'm proud that Independent Women's Forum stepped into this
space. My only regret is that we didn't do it sooner, because every
day these policies remain in effect. These women continue to be humiliated and harmed.
And I think we need to remember that is there can be big instances
where some of them are being subjected to actual sexual assault, and then you
have the small instances like the example I gave you of crawling up to the
top bunk in a nightgown every night with a sexual predator underneath you, where
every step of the way you are humiliated. It's not right and it's it's
not fair. These policies need to be reversed and we need Yeah, we
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podcasts. What was it like going into telling these stories but also really needing
to gain the trust of these women who are from probably very different backgrounds.
I'm just making that assumption, but probably very different backgrounds have gone through so
much in their lives, trauma, prison, and here they are speaking out
about something that's a hotly charged political topic and they're going to be doing an
interview or chatting with somebody who's basically the position of a journalist outside of Washington,
d C. What was that Like Kelsey, they were and they are
terrified, and they absolutely have no interest in engaging in politics. They have
no interest in hurting anybody's feelings. They simply want the public to know what
is happening to them. And another challenge that we have is actually, as
we speak, my colleague Andrea is interviewing some current inmates, and it's very
difficult to get access to the prisons in order to film. And then if
you try to get access to the women's prisons to make a film that is
exposing the harmful effects of California's state policy in this regard, they're not going
to give us access. So we tried, we're still trying. They're not
inclined to give us access. So that means we're put in the position of
not even being able to work much with these women to gain their trust,
because in order to communicate with inmates, you have to use this special chat
system, and you're limited in the time you can speak with them, and
they're limited and when and how they can communicate with you. And so what
I was doing earlier today was getting Andrea, helping her get ready to interview.
Try to capture these women's stories, which again we have to remember,
often start from very traumatic backgrounds which led to violence, which led to them
being in prison, which has for many of them, led to a path
of redemption of them trying to get forgiveness for their sins and turn their life
around and help others to capture that. In the time you're allotted to speak
with them is extremely difficult. I think she maybe has the tops of twenty
minutes with each women she'll be talking to today. But we could not have
done this project without the help of the woman Amy Ikachawa, who I mentioned
earlier started this nonprofit called Women to Women, because she actually has personal connections
and relations with many of these current inmates, and it is through her that
we have been able to gain the trust of those who we can't just walk
into the prison and try to ask if you'll participate in our video. Of
course, someone like NBC News, when they were already inside the prisons,
they could have stopped to talk to some of these female inmates and maybe gain
their trust to tell them how they feel about the implication of SB one thirty
two that didn't happen. So here we are trying to do what we can
in the ways that we're allowed. This is kind of what we talked about
before. But do you feel like the winds are shifting? I mean,
maybe even just in California. It's a state where you know, there have
been in certain cities San Francisco, La, significant backlash from people that aren't
on the right, people who are maybe in the center or on the left,
to soft on crime policies from prosecutors or racial preferences in academia. There
has been backlash in California. It's such a wild state. What's your hope
for the future there? Do you think the winds are shifting? I do
think the winds are shifting, But I, unfortunately still think so many people
in this country think that it's the compassionate, nice and tolerant thing to do
to treat men who identify as women as biological women. I'm not sure a
huge sector of our population fully understands the consequences of this. And you know,
we've covered this from the medicalization front. We've covered this from the women's
sports front, We've covered this from the K through twelve education front. Now
we're trying to expose it in the prison system. And maybe when we put
this whole puzzle together, those people will finally come to realize that they are
not being righteous or kind by going along with these policies that quite the opposite.
They are actively harming biological women and often already vulnerable populations. But we're
not there yet. Unfortunately, I wish I could show this video series to
every one of those individuals I'm talking about. I wish they would also watch
the Identity Crisis series, where we, you know, get into the medical
harms of medically transitioning children. Of course, there's no such thing as that
gutting you guys, did I mean? That series? If people have not
watched it yet, is absolutely worth your time. It is piercing, it's
so so awful. Well, it's interesting because when I started that series,
it was actually my intention to put all these puzzle pieces together to tell one
story of the medicalization, one story of how it's affecting families with how parents
are losing custody of their children, one story of the effects in women's prisons.
And at this time, this was over two years ago, when even
activists were still denying the very existence of de transitioners. As soon as I
started hearing the stories of some of these detransitioners, I knew we had to
tell more of them, that one wouldn't be enough, And so this women's
prison project actually got delayed a little bit because of that. Thankfully we turned
back to it. But yeah, it really is overwhelming in a way when
you take a step back and look at all the different ways our country and
vulnerable populations. Often the most vulnerable populations have been harmed by this ideology and
the implementation of these policies. And before we run, I just want to
mention something very quickly on that point of vulnerable populations, because I stumbled onto
a Kaiser Family Foundation survey a couple of weeks ago that should give sort of
class based leftists some pause about vulnerable pops populations. Economically, the survey found
that a larger sale share of trans adults live on incomes below fifty thousand dollars
per year than non transadults, so they are actually higher percentages of trans adults
in lower income demographics. And that might sound counterintuitive when we think about young
women who are often in affluent pockets of the country, and you know,
the sort of the Abigail Schreier dysphoria social contagion phenomenon is very very widespread in
some of those affluent pockets, but among adults it is sort of economically vulnerable
people especially, you know, when you consider how this has you know,
affected people who are sexually abused, have been sexually abused and are maybe economically
disadvantage because they've never recovered from that trauma properly, Man, Kelsey, there's
really something to that, and I imagine you saw that up close talking to
women. Yeah, and Emily, this is politically incorrect and could get me
into some trouble. But I also think we need to acknowledge for some portion
of this population, identifying as transgender is a very real depiction of a mental
illness. If you look at some of the videos that are out there of
the inmates who are identifying as transgender, some of them do not look well.
And I don't say that to be mean. I say that because they
need help. They need treatment, and what we're doing by putting them into
women's prisons is not just putting women at risk, but it is not helping
the individuals who are suffering clearly suffering from mental illness. It is active actually
doing the opposite it by probably pushing them more into their delusions. Of course,
I think, you know, there's we could get a whole conversation of
the different is you open the door for this, Emily, But you know,
obviously there's a lot of different individuals and different reasons why people are identifying
as transgender. If some of it has to do with mental illness, we
know, for a lot of like the teenage girls, for example, many
many of them have autism. So I want to say there's a broad spectrum
of the backgrounds of those who are identifying as transgender. And I don't want
to say they're all like crazy or something, but you know, in the
case of some of these convicted criminals who are the very definition of psychopaths,
and then they learn about this new law where they can, you know,
put on women's clothes and act say they're a woman and get into the women's
prisons. It's it's kind of like an insane situation that we would allow this
to happen. And then I think if you look at some of the reports
out there, and actually we'll include some of it in our in our videos,
you'll see that these people need help, and putting them next to women
is not help, is not how you help them. Kelsey, this is
such important work. As always, we appreciate you doing it and appreciate you
coming on the show to talk us through what you found. Thank you,
Emily. Hopefully I didn't get myself into too much trouble. Hopefully you did.
If you have a complaint with Kelsey, email no, I'm kidding,
but seriously, go to IWF dot org. You can read these stories,
watch these videos. They're all right there. They're very easy to find,
right at the top of the homepage IWF dot org. Check it out.
Kelsey Bowler, director of storytelling with the Independent Women's Forum, Thank you,
as always for joining the show. Thank you, Emily, You've been listening
to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. Emily Shitsky, culture editor here.
The Federalist will be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers
of freedom and anxious for the tres heard the fame by ser reason, and
then it faded away.