1 00:00:18,039 --> 00:00:22,039 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Kashinski, 2 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,199 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,679 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST. 4 00:00:30,079 --> 00:00:33,640 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, leave a review. We 5 00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:37,520 appreciate that so much, and make sure to also subscribe to the premium version 6 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,640 of the Federalist dot com as well. I'm joined today by one of the 7 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:49,000 probably original Federalist Radio Hour guests, a longtime friend of the show, Kelsey 8 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,759 Boehler. She is the director of Storytelling with our friends over at the Independent 9 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,640 Women's Forum. We're in full disclosure, I am also a senior fellow. 10 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,679 Kelsey, Welcome back to Federalist Radio Hour. Hey Emily, it's so great 11 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:03,200 to be back, and thank you for pronouncing my last name right. You 12 00:01:03,239 --> 00:01:06,959 know, it's like not a complicated last name, but a lot of people 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,359 mispronounce it. Well. I remember when you got married you told everyone like 14 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,400 you started adding it to emails and stuff like, it's pronounced like polar yea 15 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:22,599 bowler. It's never left me. Uh So, Kelsey, you're out with 16 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:29,560 a spectacular new series over at IWF with your colleagues like Andrea mw And it 17 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,680 is just I was watching you guys on Megan Kelly and I'm so glad Megan 18 00:01:34,719 --> 00:01:40,359 covered this. I'm so glad you guys covered this. The story of California's 19 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:48,799 interpretation of sex and gender identity in prisons one of the most undertold stories of 20 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,799 this radical transformation to society we've undergone in the last decade. So let's just 21 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,319 start from the very very beginning, Kelsey, what on earth happened in California 22 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:06,000 and how did you decide to take on this subject. Yeah, so, 23 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,560 California, like a handful of other states at this point, a few years 24 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:15,319 ago, passed a law called Senate Bill one thirty two that allows inmates who 25 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:23,919 identify as transgender or non binary, whatever their identity is, to be housed 26 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:29,840 in a correctional facility that aligns with their gender identity rather than their biological sex. 27 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:35,000 So, of course this opened the floodgates to allow biological men into women's 28 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,879 prison facilities. Prior to that, these decisions were already being made on a 29 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:46,120 case by case basis, So there were the occasional men who identify as transgender 30 00:02:46,199 --> 00:02:52,680 in women's prisons, and that alone created its own problems. But when Governor 31 00:02:52,759 --> 00:02:58,639 Gabham Newsom signed this bill into law, all of a sudden, it just 32 00:02:58,759 --> 00:03:02,439 really opened the doors for men to move over to the women's prisons for a 33 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,639 variety of reasons. From my understanding, you know, there's a handful of 34 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:13,840 them who might actually really believe they are transgender, if you can say there's 35 00:03:13,879 --> 00:03:16,400 such a thing. And then there's also, of course others who are taking 36 00:03:16,439 --> 00:03:22,400 advantage of this new law or a variety of reasons. And in order to 37 00:03:22,479 --> 00:03:27,319 qualify to move into the women's prisons, I mean it's hard to even use 38 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,919 that word qualify, because all you have to do is declare you are a 39 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,400 woman. In the state will treat you as such. You don't need any 40 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,479 of these so called gender surgeries, you don't even need to be on cross 41 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,599 sex hormones. You just need to say what you believe you are in the 42 00:03:45,639 --> 00:03:53,280 state will treat you as such. And of course this has subjected already vulnerable 43 00:03:53,520 --> 00:04:01,280 women to very unfortunate instances. Some of them have been sexually harassed, even 44 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,960 sexually assaulted by biological men. For some of them, they don't even need 45 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:12,520 to be sexually harassed or assaulted, to be traumatized by being forced to live 46 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:16,399 in a very tight living cell with biological men. Because for those of us 47 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:21,519 who are in the free world and who have no experience behind bars, when 48 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:31,439 these women are in prison, they're sharing a very tight living space with typically 49 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,639 other women. So for the first woman we featured in our series, Jennifer 50 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:42,759 Barrella, she describes living in an eight person cell where you share your toilet 51 00:04:43,959 --> 00:04:49,560 and shower and bug beds with eight other individuals. And typically these individuals are 52 00:04:49,639 --> 00:04:54,839 supposed to be women. But she was one of the first to have to 53 00:04:54,879 --> 00:05:00,720 share this living space with biological men, not once, but on two different 54 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:04,959 occasions. And one of these men, who goes by Ava Reeves, has 55 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:14,399 a very al say, frightening, serious track record. He is he's in 56 00:05:14,439 --> 00:05:19,439 prison for murder, and he's this huge, daunting figure. And imagine these 57 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,399 women, you know a lot of them are like five foot two, and 58 00:05:23,439 --> 00:05:28,240 all of a sudden, they're in an eight person living cell with a six 59 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:32,199 foot two male who is in prison maybe for murder, maybe for rape, 60 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:39,680 maybe for some other type of violence against women. It is very traumatizing to 61 00:05:39,959 --> 00:05:46,199 these women. Many of whom are trying to rehabilitate themselves to be forced to 62 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:53,519 live in these tight quarters with biological men. It's wrong on so many occasions, 63 00:05:53,879 --> 00:06:00,639 and it's really just yet another example of the fallout of gender ideology, 64 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:08,040 and in a way that was never discussed when you know, legislation like or 65 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,240 not even legislation, you know, executive action, bureaucratic decisions were just plowed 66 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,600 through relating to sex and gender. Because Kelsey correct me if I'm wrong, 67 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:23,480 but I believe it took a couple of years. But when feminists recognized what 68 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:27,199 was happening, people who are sort of broadly derisively referred to as turfs, 69 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:30,160 it's probably best characterized, so people have kind of embraced that. But when 70 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,839 they realized what was happening, a small group of them started recognizing the disastrous 71 00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:41,720 ends of the sex gender conflation, specifically in California's prisons. Because some of 72 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,240 these stories that the media hasn't told and that you guys tell so beautifully, 73 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,720 they are tragic and terrifying, right. And one of the things I have 74 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:57,800 to point out is while my colleague Andrea and you and I were doing research 75 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,680 for this project, we were looking on YouTube about what other news coverage has 76 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:11,079 this the implications of these policies for prisons received and uh, you know, 77 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:17,399 we found some reports from NBC News, Vice News, al Jazeera covering this 78 00:07:17,519 --> 00:07:25,480 policy change in California from the perspective of transgender identified inmates. Of course men, 79 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:30,000 mind you, because this is all always about men, This is never 80 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,759 about women. So it is these these news reports were put out there talking 81 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:42,360 about the consequences and the changes, how the changes were going to positively impact 82 00:07:42,399 --> 00:07:46,399 these biological men who were gaining access to the women's prisons. What was so 83 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,959 amazing to me is these reporters apparently didn't think to stop and turn around and 84 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:58,759 ask the biological women how these policy changes would affect them. I mean, 85 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:03,800 imagine, on any issue, this brand new policy comes into effect, and 86 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:07,680 we're not going to turn around and ask the largest population, the largest sector, 87 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:15,040 that of individuals who stand to be affected by it. Yeah. I 88 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,759 just can't help but think these policies are always for the benefit of men into 89 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,720 the detriment of women. I also thought, and again, folks can read 90 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:28,199 this and watch this at IWF dot org. I love that it's both in 91 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,839 the written format and in the video format. I think that's fantastic. The 92 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,799 video is incredible because you can see Jennifer, you can hear from her, 93 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:39,200 and you sort of see I think the psychological toll all this has taken on 94 00:08:39,279 --> 00:08:41,480 her. And I'm sure, Kelsey, as you talked to many of the 95 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:48,679 other people who went through this, it's similar. But again, it's so 96 00:08:48,159 --> 00:08:52,519 crazy. I don't know. I thought you guys did a really good job 97 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:58,200 handling the issue of many of these women you deserve to be in prison, 98 00:08:58,399 --> 00:09:01,639 and you know they've come to terms with that. You know, Jennifer, 99 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,960 for example, is you know, found her faith basically in prison and has 100 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,399 this amazing story. But we are as a society, you know, it's 101 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,639 like the last group of people that we tend to care about, and yet 102 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:20,320 the consequences were so devastating. I just thought, I'm curious for your perspective 103 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,320 on this, Kelsey, because I imagine it was interesting to kind of grapple 104 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,480 with that. But I thought you guys did it really well. Yeah, 105 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,360 that's an interesting question because I definitely had to take a pause heading into this 106 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:41,759 project and ask like, are these the women we should be fighting for because 107 00:09:41,799 --> 00:09:46,279 some of them are behind bars for very heinous crimes, and then you know, 108 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:54,720 you start talking to them and you learn about the injustices they are facing 109 00:09:54,799 --> 00:09:58,360 behind bars as a result of these policies, and you realize, you know, 110 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,720 there's no way to defend this. If we can't defend them, who 111 00:10:01,759 --> 00:10:09,120 else will And unfortunately, up until this point, nobody else would. I 112 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:15,399 will give to the Women's Liberation Front, you know, use that term TURFS. 113 00:10:16,279 --> 00:10:22,759 This is a very leftist organization. Yes, they have been excellent on 114 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:28,080 standing up for marginalized women and the true definition of women. And they were 115 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,480 one of the first to come in and actually file a lawsuit on behalf of 116 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,799 some of these female inmates who are being harmed as a result of this policy. 117 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,360 So we're very grateful to them. And we know with all of these 118 00:10:45,639 --> 00:10:48,320 issues, we we need people fighting back on the legal front, we need 119 00:10:48,399 --> 00:10:54,320 people telling stories and you know, fighting fighting in the media and so forth. 120 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:03,519 But I think it's important to know these women are very we're very nervous 121 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,919 to speak out, and you can hear that in Jennifer's voice. She was 122 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,159 so shy and timid during our interview. And I mean, for all of 123 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:16,240 these women, it's for a number of reasons. But first I think for 124 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,279 so long they thought, you know, they don't deserve a voice, you 125 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:26,399 know, because of their history, and that nobody would care if they tried 126 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,080 to speak out, and then worse, many of them feared retribution. So 127 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:37,480 a lot of the women are looking for redemption when they are in prison and 128 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:43,960 working very hard to do what they can to right the wrongs that they've committed 129 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:50,159 that landed them in prison, turn their life around work hard. For many 130 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:54,480 of them, that also means finding their faith to get them qualified to be 131 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,799 released from prison. And even when they're released, they still don't they're not 132 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:05,440 free because they're still on parole and somebody could take away their parole. They 133 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,720 could end up back behind bars. And so there's so many reasons for female 134 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,279 inmates not to speak out about the effects of these policies because we know the 135 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,960 powers that be support these policies and if they challenge them, they have many 136 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,320 ways of also punishing these female inmates. So I think that's a huge reason 137 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:31,320 why for so long they didn't feel safe to speak out. But we know 138 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,440 that when one person speaks out, it makes it easier for the next and 139 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:43,039 the next. We saw this in the area of women's sports. 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Go to CSN mint dot 170 00:15:13,679 --> 00:15:18,679 com slash Federalist and use promo code Federalist at checkout to get a free silver 171 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:24,039 American Eagle over thirty dollars in value with your purchase of seventy five dollars or 172 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:33,159 more. Yeah, I'm really curious about to sort of flesh out even more 173 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,360 those thoughts about because you were from the very beginning talking to sources involved with 174 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,879 the women's sports world, really from the very beginning as this started happening. 175 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:43,360 Before we get to that, Kelsey, could you talk to us a little 176 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:50,600 bit more, in some more detail too, about the pragmatic effects of being 177 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,279 in prisons, you know, the physical space of a prison. I know 178 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,279 you talked to Jennifer and many of the other women about this. You know, 179 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,080 not all prisons the same. Obviously, there's a difference in people's experiences 180 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,720 based on crimes that they're convicted of and all of that. In some places, 181 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:14,639 people are sharing incredibly tiny and obviously intimate spaces. Tell us a little 182 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:19,639 bit about those stories about you know, sharing spaces, being a domestic violence 183 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:25,600 victim, and then maybe you know, seeing somebody who's committed domestic violence or 184 00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:30,519 seeing male genitalia in the showers, just because of the physical space and what 185 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:33,519 you heard from the women. Can you tell us more about that? Yeah, 186 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:38,840 I'll paint one picture for you that really stuck with me. So imagine 187 00:16:40,039 --> 00:16:47,879 you are behind bars awesibly for you know, a heinous crime. But you 188 00:16:47,919 --> 00:16:51,720 know what led you to that crime is probably a very difficult life where maybe 189 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:57,399 you suffered domestic violence or sexual abuse as a child, as a young girl, 190 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,039 and now you're in prison trying to turn around your life. And you're 191 00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:07,920 living in this very tight living cell where you have a bunk bed and you're 192 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:14,119 on the bottom bunk, and all of a sudden, a male enters your 193 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:19,799 living space, a biological male who is in prison for a violent crime against 194 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:27,680 women, possibly rape, possibly murder, some pretty awful stuff. And all 195 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:33,799 of a sudden, you know, you're climbing up to the top bunk in 196 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:38,359 your nightgown and there's a biological mail below below you. Every single night, 197 00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:47,039 imagine how demeaning each step on that ladder would feel to have a biological male 198 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:52,599 who's behind bars for some type of violence against women and women and every single 199 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,599 night you have to step up into your top bunk in your nightgown, use 200 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:03,799 the bathroom, use the shower, change, share very close living spaces with 201 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:10,400 this man. It is humiliating. It is the very definition of cruel and 202 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:18,880 unusual punishment. The cruel and unusual punishment point is one that shows up in 203 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,359 your story. And it's very very interesting. What legal recourse do some of 204 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,119 these women have if any I don't even know what's been tried in the space 205 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:33,160 or experimented within the space, caucaid, What options do women in California prisons 206 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,680 have? Yeah, it's interesting because I asked some attorneys. You know, 207 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:45,599 inmates have protection against facing cruel and unusual punishment, Like this is pretty clearly 208 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:51,039 the definition of that. No and no, and you know the answer is 209 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,920 yeah, like most people would agree this is the definition. But you know, 210 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,759 like all of these issues are, it's an uphill legal battle being played 211 00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:06,200 out in often very liberal courts in very liberal states. We also need to 212 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:11,640 recognize there are state prisons and there are federal prisons, and this is really 213 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,519 a problem that has spread nationwide. We know the Biden administration has perverseed the 214 00:19:17,559 --> 00:19:25,119 definition of women and has also opened the doors for biological men to be housed 215 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:33,279 in women's prisons. And so we have seen a handful of lawmakers Senator Ted 216 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:41,960 Cruz and Senator Mike Lee come to mind, who have pressed our bureaucratic officials 217 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:48,960 about the implications of these policies. And what's so striking is they won't even 218 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:55,240 give us numbers on exactly how many men are being housed in women's prisons because 219 00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:59,720 according to this whole ideology, you're not a transgender woman. You are a 220 00:19:59,759 --> 00:20:04,440 woman, and so that's how they're going to track you. So they are 221 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:14,240 very intentionally keeping this issue hidden from the public in all these ways. And 222 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,880 I think it's going to take more. I think it's going to take more 223 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,000 stories, more women's stories, to make people aware that this is happening. 224 00:20:23,079 --> 00:20:30,359 It's going to take lawmakers pressing for answers, exposing exactly how many men are 225 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:37,039 now inside women's prisons and the implications of that from the federal perspective, and 226 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:44,079 you know, statewide. I do think that when you hear these stories, 227 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,839 it's very hard to defend these policies. Like I would love to hear how 228 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:55,880 these liberal lawmakers in California feel after watching what Jennifer says, and I really 229 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,799 hope that once we tell enough of them, they won't be able to walk 230 00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:06,559 away way and say this doesn't matter, because that's telling these women they don't 231 00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:11,480 matter, and although they're behind bars, they do matter. And this brings 232 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:18,039 us I think, uh back to that question of what you saw happen as 233 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,519 you dove into covering the women's sports world especially, I mean the stories from 234 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:26,960 Connecticut. You were there so early and were doing such detailed reporting, and 235 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,680 those really changed the country. I mean, those girls paved the way for 236 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:34,960 Riley Gains. Were not particularly political. We're you know, sort of brave, 237 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,400 but again not you know, ready to just they weren't their entire let's 238 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:47,359 say, goal wasn't to become involved in politics. It wasn't front of mine 239 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,839 for them. They just wanted to run track. And those stories started to 240 00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:56,519 pop up everywhere, and because that, you know, different people got involved 241 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:00,839 in different legal challenges. It start to it started to give an example for 242 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:04,839 other communities to follow, for other attorneys to follow, for other parents to 243 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,559 follow. Now that you know you sort of saw that happen, Kelsey, 244 00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:14,400 even though this is clearly a much more sympathetic demographic, which is young women 245 00:22:14,839 --> 00:22:18,799 who are you just ready to make waves in the world, hard working, 246 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:25,240 all of that contrasted with the convicted criminals. I mean, you can choose 247 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,519 which one pretty clearly is going to be a more persuasive, persuasive example. 248 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,799 But still, this stuff makes a difference. As these stories pick up, 249 00:22:34,799 --> 00:22:38,079 it makes a difference. Do you expect to see maybe a similar pattern here? 250 00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:41,880 Well, Emily, I almost you know, a few months ago, 251 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,799 before I dove into these stories, I would have agreed with what you said, 252 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:52,440 because certainly the women's sports stories are easier to tell, they seemingly are 253 00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:57,799 more sympathetic. Because are we even capable of grading sympathy for women who have 254 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:03,319 committed hate crimes? I don't know, And that's not necessarily what we're trying 255 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,519 to do in this project. We're just trying to show the public the effects 256 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:12,559 of these policies, and I think the end result of that actually is sympathy, 257 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:21,039 because nobody would want somebody they cared about suffering through this humiliation and abuse 258 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:27,440 on a daily basis. But the reaction to our first episode in the series 259 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:33,039 has kind of blown me away and given me a renewed sense of faith in 260 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,119 humanity because I think two things are happening. One, people do actually care 261 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:45,480 about these women, They care about female inmates and them having justice and dignity 262 00:23:45,839 --> 00:23:55,960 when they're behind bars. And then they also realize how quickly this policy exposes 263 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:04,400 the perversion and the flaws in the entire geology behind gender, behind the whole 264 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:11,680 sex and gender debate we're having in this country. Because perhaps in the space 265 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:18,079 of women's sports, it's easier to, you know, convince people that trans 266 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:26,119 women are women. But when you're actually placing so called trans women inside an 267 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:32,920 eight person living cell where the doors are locked shut every single night, with 268 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,799 seven other biological women, it's pretty clear that trans women are not women, 269 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:47,839 that in fact, the individual in there with seven other women poses a direct 270 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,680 threat and a direct danger to the other women. It is no doubt an 271 00:24:52,799 --> 00:24:59,680 unfair advantage. I mean, these these men again are often behind bars for 272 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,359 comitting sex crimes against women, and they are transferring into the women's prison with 273 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:10,079 the very body part that got them behind bars in the first place. And 274 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:15,680 so yeah, I just I think the when we talk about gender ideology in 275 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:26,079 the women's prison space, it just so quickly and radically exposes this ideology for 276 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,960 what it is and what it is is completely false, of course, and 277 00:25:32,039 --> 00:25:34,440 you know from the perspective of a Christian it's clear. I mean, even 278 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,799 in the verse before Christ talks about the least of these, how we treat 279 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:41,440 the least of these, he's specifically talking about people who are sick, people 280 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:48,480 who are in prison. There's, you know, immense need obviously for Christians. 281 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,200 Some Christians are amazing about ministering to people in prison, but you know, 282 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,839 it's a very important part of our society, and there's it's so important 283 00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:00,920 to prepare people to integrate into society without the cycle logical scarring of having a 284 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000 sleep next to a man when you're in there for maybe retaliating against you retaliated 285 00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:11,559 against a man who's abusing you. I mean, these stories are just so 286 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:18,319 profoundly messed up that it's just Calsie. I'm so glad to hear that the 287 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,359 response has been so good, because I think when you consider what's really happening, 288 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:33,039 it just again becomes clear as day that we are so far beyond compassion 289 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,160 and humanity. And this is another good example causey of the trend, you 290 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:44,200 know, whether it's insisting that homeless people be able to camp outside in the 291 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,559 winter. That's a thing that happened in my neighborhood. You're wanting to see 292 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:52,480 the advocates for the homeless, we're protesting clearing the camps, so in effect, 293 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,519 they were saying, we want more people to sleep in the cold. 294 00:26:55,839 --> 00:27:03,279 This is basically that it is. And you know, I remember Amy, 295 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:10,240 one of the subjects of our next documentary that we're rolling out, another former 296 00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:17,759 inmate who was behind bars with trans identifying individuals. She's carried the burden for 297 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:22,920 a long time of when she was released from prison, she became she started 298 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:30,279 an organization called Women to Women, and her intention was to help women on 299 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:37,559 their way out to re enter society with whatever basic services or needs that they 300 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,960 needed to reintegrate into society. Instead of doing that, all of a sudden, 301 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:51,359 she became inundated with messages and phone calls from women telling them all the 302 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,200 different ways they were being harmed by this policy and how they can't speak out 303 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,720 and how nobody cared. And she's had to walk with this emotion old burden 304 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,119 for years where she feels she left these women behind in this very vulnerable situation. 305 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,000 And when I asked her why should the public care about these women? 306 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:15,559 You know, why are you devoting your life to helping them? She said, 307 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,240 If not me, then who? And she is absolutely right, And 308 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:23,039 I think, you know, I'm proud that Independent Women's Forum stepped into this 309 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,000 space. My only regret is that we didn't do it sooner, because every 310 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:33,000 day these policies remain in effect. These women continue to be humiliated and harmed. 311 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,440 And I think we need to remember that is there can be big instances 312 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:45,079 where some of them are being subjected to actual sexual assault, and then you 313 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,480 have the small instances like the example I gave you of crawling up to the 314 00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:53,400 top bunk in a nightgown every night with a sexual predator underneath you, where 315 00:28:53,480 --> 00:29:00,200 every step of the way you are humiliated. It's not right and it's it's 316 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:06,119 not fair. These policies need to be reversed and we need Yeah, we 317 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:15,480 need to fight back. Don't Believe the bs The Watchdot on Wall Street podcast 318 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,440 with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the 319 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,720 economy and how it affects your wallet. What's next for the Biden propaganda machine? 320 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:26,160 Biden nomics one over like a lead balloon, ahead of Biden's State of 321 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:32,160 the Union address, he plans to address shrink flation while blaming grocery store chains 322 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,640 for gouging its customers. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 323 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,480 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on Wall 324 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,839 Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your 325 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:51,039 podcasts. What was it like going into telling these stories but also really needing 326 00:29:51,079 --> 00:29:56,599 to gain the trust of these women who are from probably very different backgrounds. 327 00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:02,000 I'm just making that assumption, but probably very different backgrounds have gone through so 328 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,480 much in their lives, trauma, prison, and here they are speaking out 329 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,440 about something that's a hotly charged political topic and they're going to be doing an 330 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:19,400 interview or chatting with somebody who's basically the position of a journalist outside of Washington, 331 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:26,200 d C. What was that Like Kelsey, they were and they are 332 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:33,359 terrified, and they absolutely have no interest in engaging in politics. They have 333 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,480 no interest in hurting anybody's feelings. They simply want the public to know what 334 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:45,279 is happening to them. And another challenge that we have is actually, as 335 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:53,519 we speak, my colleague Andrea is interviewing some current inmates, and it's very 336 00:30:53,559 --> 00:31:00,160 difficult to get access to the prisons in order to film. And then if 337 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,200 you try to get access to the women's prisons to make a film that is 338 00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:12,240 exposing the harmful effects of California's state policy in this regard, they're not going 339 00:31:12,279 --> 00:31:17,440 to give us access. So we tried, we're still trying. They're not 340 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,920 inclined to give us access. So that means we're put in the position of 341 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:25,759 not even being able to work much with these women to gain their trust, 342 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:30,640 because in order to communicate with inmates, you have to use this special chat 343 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,960 system, and you're limited in the time you can speak with them, and 344 00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:41,519 they're limited and when and how they can communicate with you. And so what 345 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:48,160 I was doing earlier today was getting Andrea, helping her get ready to interview. 346 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,920 Try to capture these women's stories, which again we have to remember, 347 00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:57,960 often start from very traumatic backgrounds which led to violence, which led to them 348 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,119 being in prison, which has for many of them, led to a path 349 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:09,680 of redemption of them trying to get forgiveness for their sins and turn their life 350 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,920 around and help others to capture that. In the time you're allotted to speak 351 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:22,319 with them is extremely difficult. I think she maybe has the tops of twenty 352 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:29,119 minutes with each women she'll be talking to today. But we could not have 353 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:36,000 done this project without the help of the woman Amy Ikachawa, who I mentioned 354 00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:42,319 earlier started this nonprofit called Women to Women, because she actually has personal connections 355 00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:49,359 and relations with many of these current inmates, and it is through her that 356 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,759 we have been able to gain the trust of those who we can't just walk 357 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:58,240 into the prison and try to ask if you'll participate in our video. Of 358 00:32:58,279 --> 00:33:01,000 course, someone like NBC News, when they were already inside the prisons, 359 00:33:01,279 --> 00:33:05,799 they could have stopped to talk to some of these female inmates and maybe gain 360 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,440 their trust to tell them how they feel about the implication of SB one thirty 361 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,079 two that didn't happen. So here we are trying to do what we can 362 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,680 in the ways that we're allowed. This is kind of what we talked about 363 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,880 before. But do you feel like the winds are shifting? I mean, 364 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,880 maybe even just in California. It's a state where you know, there have 365 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:35,240 been in certain cities San Francisco, La, significant backlash from people that aren't 366 00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:37,599 on the right, people who are maybe in the center or on the left, 367 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:45,200 to soft on crime policies from prosecutors or racial preferences in academia. There 368 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,119 has been backlash in California. It's such a wild state. What's your hope 369 00:33:50,119 --> 00:33:52,839 for the future there? Do you think the winds are shifting? I do 370 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:59,680 think the winds are shifting, But I, unfortunately still think so many people 371 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,359 in this country think that it's the compassionate, nice and tolerant thing to do 372 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:12,559 to treat men who identify as women as biological women. I'm not sure a 373 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:19,440 huge sector of our population fully understands the consequences of this. And you know, 374 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:23,519 we've covered this from the medicalization front. We've covered this from the women's 375 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:30,039 sports front, We've covered this from the K through twelve education front. Now 376 00:34:30,039 --> 00:34:34,320 we're trying to expose it in the prison system. And maybe when we put 377 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,400 this whole puzzle together, those people will finally come to realize that they are 378 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:46,880 not being righteous or kind by going along with these policies that quite the opposite. 379 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:57,559 They are actively harming biological women and often already vulnerable populations. But we're 380 00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:04,599 not there yet. Unfortunately, I wish I could show this video series to 381 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,000 every one of those individuals I'm talking about. I wish they would also watch 382 00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:13,440 the Identity Crisis series, where we, you know, get into the medical 383 00:35:13,679 --> 00:35:20,039 harms of medically transitioning children. Of course, there's no such thing as that 384 00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:24,480 gutting you guys, did I mean? That series? If people have not 385 00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:30,440 watched it yet, is absolutely worth your time. It is piercing, it's 386 00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:36,800 so so awful. Well, it's interesting because when I started that series, 387 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,880 it was actually my intention to put all these puzzle pieces together to tell one 388 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:46,320 story of the medicalization, one story of how it's affecting families with how parents 389 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,679 are losing custody of their children, one story of the effects in women's prisons. 390 00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:57,679 And at this time, this was over two years ago, when even 391 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,559 activists were still denying the very existence of de transitioners. As soon as I 392 00:36:01,599 --> 00:36:07,679 started hearing the stories of some of these detransitioners, I knew we had to 393 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:12,159 tell more of them, that one wouldn't be enough, And so this women's 394 00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:19,480 prison project actually got delayed a little bit because of that. Thankfully we turned 395 00:36:19,559 --> 00:36:23,840 back to it. But yeah, it really is overwhelming in a way when 396 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,440 you take a step back and look at all the different ways our country and 397 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:37,800 vulnerable populations. Often the most vulnerable populations have been harmed by this ideology and 398 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,079 the implementation of these policies. And before we run, I just want to 399 00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:49,880 mention something very quickly on that point of vulnerable populations, because I stumbled onto 400 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,239 a Kaiser Family Foundation survey a couple of weeks ago that should give sort of 401 00:36:54,320 --> 00:37:02,159 class based leftists some pause about vulnerable pops populations. Economically, the survey found 402 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,000 that a larger sale share of trans adults live on incomes below fifty thousand dollars 403 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:14,679 per year than non transadults, so they are actually higher percentages of trans adults 404 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:21,760 in lower income demographics. And that might sound counterintuitive when we think about young 405 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:27,280 women who are often in affluent pockets of the country, and you know, 406 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:35,320 the sort of the Abigail Schreier dysphoria social contagion phenomenon is very very widespread in 407 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,519 some of those affluent pockets, but among adults it is sort of economically vulnerable 408 00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:45,599 people especially, you know, when you consider how this has you know, 409 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:50,960 affected people who are sexually abused, have been sexually abused and are maybe economically 410 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,360 disadvantage because they've never recovered from that trauma properly, Man, Kelsey, there's 411 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,880 really something to that, and I imagine you saw that up close talking to 412 00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:04,920 women. Yeah, and Emily, this is politically incorrect and could get me 413 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,119 into some trouble. But I also think we need to acknowledge for some portion 414 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:21,360 of this population, identifying as transgender is a very real depiction of a mental 415 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,199 illness. If you look at some of the videos that are out there of 416 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:31,960 the inmates who are identifying as transgender, some of them do not look well. 417 00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:37,519 And I don't say that to be mean. I say that because they 418 00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:44,239 need help. They need treatment, and what we're doing by putting them into 419 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:50,360 women's prisons is not just putting women at risk, but it is not helping 420 00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:58,440 the individuals who are suffering clearly suffering from mental illness. It is active actually 421 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:07,760 doing the opposite it by probably pushing them more into their delusions. Of course, 422 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,559 I think, you know, there's we could get a whole conversation of 423 00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:15,440 the different is you open the door for this, Emily, But you know, 424 00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:22,440 obviously there's a lot of different individuals and different reasons why people are identifying 425 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,639 as transgender. If some of it has to do with mental illness, we 426 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,480 know, for a lot of like the teenage girls, for example, many 427 00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:34,440 many of them have autism. So I want to say there's a broad spectrum 428 00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:37,760 of the backgrounds of those who are identifying as transgender. And I don't want 429 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:44,480 to say they're all like crazy or something, but you know, in the 430 00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:50,719 case of some of these convicted criminals who are the very definition of psychopaths, 431 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,719 and then they learn about this new law where they can, you know, 432 00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:00,480 put on women's clothes and act say they're a woman and get into the women's 433 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,360 prisons. It's it's kind of like an insane situation that we would allow this 434 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,119 to happen. And then I think if you look at some of the reports 435 00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:14,039 out there, and actually we'll include some of it in our in our videos, 436 00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:20,679 you'll see that these people need help, and putting them next to women 437 00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:25,800 is not help, is not how you help them. Kelsey, this is 438 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,440 such important work. As always, we appreciate you doing it and appreciate you 439 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:36,239 coming on the show to talk us through what you found. Thank you, 440 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,960 Emily. Hopefully I didn't get myself into too much trouble. Hopefully you did. 441 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,440 If you have a complaint with Kelsey, email no, I'm kidding, 442 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,480 but seriously, go to IWF dot org. You can read these stories, 443 00:40:50,519 --> 00:40:52,559 watch these videos. They're all right there. They're very easy to find, 444 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:57,800 right at the top of the homepage IWF dot org. Check it out. 445 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,599 Kelsey Bowler, director of storytelling with the Independent Women's Forum, Thank you, 446 00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:05,159 as always for joining the show. Thank you, Emily, You've been listening 447 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,920 to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. Emily Shitsky, culture editor here. 448 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:12,159 The Federalist will be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers 449 00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:24,840 of freedom and anxious for the tres heard the fame by ser reason, and 450 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:30,679 then it faded away.