WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:34.479 Welcome back to the path, went Chiley for part two of our series on 2 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:38.600 the unexplained death of Jack Davis Junior. Robins. Do you want to catch 3 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:42.439 everyone up on what we talked about in our previous episode? Well, Jack 4 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:47.280 Davis Jr. Was a twenty year old student at Indiana University of Pennsylvania who 5 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:50.840 was attending in October of nineteen eighty seven. He went out for a night 6 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:54.719 of drinking on a Friday night, but didn't return home and would not be 7 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.719 seen for days, so they performed the search effort for him and eventually found 8 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.600 him in a stairwell on campus on Wednesday, five days have he originally went 9 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.640 missing. They ruled that he probably was intoxicated and walked over to the stairwell 10 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:11.200 and fell in and choked in his own vomit, so his death was officially 11 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:15.000 ruled to be an accident. But Jack's family got really concerned about this and 12 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:19.359 they decided to try to push to reopen the investigation, and they eventually elicited 13 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.799 the services of doctor Cyril Weck too, maybe the most famous forensic pathologist in 14 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:26.159 the United States. And of course, once doctor Weck took over this case, 15 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.680 he discovered a number of troubling discrepancies. He performed a new autopsy after 16 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:36.680 exhuming Jack's body had discovered that he had some unexplained skull fractures. The evidence 17 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:40.519 did not seem to point to him choking on his own vomit, and doctor 18 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:44.959 Weck lay that Jack had actually only been dead for maybe a couple hours before 19 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:49.519 his body was discovered, so his whereabouts were on accounted for during the five 20 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.719 day window he was missing, and this has caused speculation that something may have 21 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:57.959 happened to him and that he was held captive, or perhaps someone was trying 22 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:00.920 to nurse him back to health for a couple of days before he died, 23 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:05.519 and the responsible parties decided to cover up their crime by placing his body at 24 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:07.520 the bottom of the stairwell to make it look like he died in an accident. 25 00:02:07.759 --> 00:02:12.479 Because Jack came from a renegade fraternity who were known for causing trouble, 26 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:16.319 there has been speculation that other members of his fraternity were complicit in his death 27 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:21.439 and stage the accident in order to cover up what they had done. And 28 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.000 while there have been a number of people who have left anonymous tips and said 29 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:28.840 that the fraternity may have been responsible. No one was ever willing to go 30 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:31.479 on the records, so as a result, Jack's death is still considered to 31 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:37.599 be unsolved thirty five years later. So in a lot of these cases where 32 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:40.879 a victim's death is ruled to be a suicider an accident, their loved ones 33 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:46.319 are vocal from day one that foul play took place. Here, it's apparent 34 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:50.800 that Jack's family did have issues with the official cover story about his death, 35 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.919 but it seems like they were content to accept it and move on until Jack's 36 00:02:54.919 --> 00:03:02.159 stepbrother John enlisted the services of Marlene Gentlecore, whose own independent investigation pretty much 37 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:07.520 changed the course of the entire case. If you read her book, Justice 38 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:13.080 Wanted, you can certainly sense the constant frustration that she and Jack's family had 39 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:16.639 to face because they kept getting stone walled at every turn, and you sense 40 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:21.759 that a number of people just wanted the case to go away and be forgotten. 41 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:27.360 Indeed, even though their efforts did get the investigation reopened and they received 42 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:31.439 assistance from the likes of Cyril Wecht and Unsolved Mysteries, they're really no closer 43 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:37.680 to solving this case and receiving conclusive answers than they were three decades ago. 44 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:43.199 One of the biggest issues with figuring out what actually happened to Jack is that 45 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:47.039 his death seems to be surrounded by a ton of rumors in hearsay, much 46 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.120 of it provided by anonymous sources who did not want to go on the record. 47 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:58.360 The most prevalent rumor is that Jack's renegade fraternity Sigma Tau Gamma, somehow 48 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.199 involved, and that when something bad happened to Jack on the night he went 49 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:05.439 missing, he was kept hidden somewhere until he died a few days later, 50 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:11.240 and his body was subsequently dumped in the stairwell where he was found. All 51 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.879 the evidence seems to point to that it seems very obvious that Jack did not 52 00:04:15.079 --> 00:04:19.439 die thirty minutes after he left his friend Brennan or the young man Brennan who 53 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.680 was trying to help him that night, and then he's found a block away 54 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:30.959 with several questionable factors being present that are really overlooked. So my problem here 55 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:35.439 is that you're talking about college age kids who are going to keep Jack hidden 56 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:40.680 and then know that he died, and someone's going to go take his body 57 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.319 to this obscure location. I think it's very possible, but I find it 58 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.839 so ironic that years later, no one has broken, no one's conscious has 59 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:50.319 gotten the best of them, no one's gotten in trouble and said, you 60 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:53.879 know what, I may as well just tell you what I know now about 61 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.920 this other case. Right, that seems difficult to me. I tease people 62 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:00.000 like, if you're ever going to do something bad, you know, don't 63 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:02.000 don't hurt someone you know, don't do it where you live, and don't 64 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.040 do it with anyone else, because two people can't stay quiet, right, 65 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:10.360 young kids in college, all of them could stay quiet when they knew something 66 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.720 had happened to Jack. And what's weird about it is that for the first 67 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:15.399 couple of years you get the sense that there was a culture of fear, 68 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:20.480 that nobody wanted to speak out because they thought the fraternity would retaliate against them. 69 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:25.480 But everyone who was attending campus at that time has since graduated and moved 70 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.920 on. They're living normal lives as adults. So it is a bit surprising 71 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.720 that someone with knowledge still hasn't come forward to reveal what happened, because there's 72 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.399 no way that members of the fraternity are going to come to harm them if 73 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:41.879 they speak after all these years, So the Indiana County Coroner Thomas Streams was 74 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.279 the one who came up with a theory about Jack passing out in the stairwell 75 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:48.360 and choking on his vomit. While Streams received a lot of blowback from his 76 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:53.079 ruling, he always maintained that he based it on the report from the original 77 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:59.199 pathologist, doctor Stephen Griffin, who sounded ridiculously unqualified. The one detail from 78 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:03.279 Griffin's report which never made sense to anybody is that Jack supposedly had no alcohol 79 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.879 in his blood, even though there were traces in his stomach and urine, 80 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:13.560 which pretty much seems impossible. Here's how Streams addressed this situation in an inquest 81 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.279 quote, when I first saw this report, I was confused as to why 82 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.720 there was no alcohol indicated in the blood when there was in the gastric contents 83 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:25.040 and in the urine. When we met with doctor Griffin for him to explain 84 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.199 that to us. His interpretation of this was that the body metabolized during the 85 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.319 time between death and when the body was found. The red blood cells and 86 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:35.879 the white blood cells still continue to work. Perhaps that would be a good 87 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:40.800 way to say it. After death occurs. End quote. Well, there's 88 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:46.560 an amusing passage Injustice Wanted, where Marlene Gentlecore describes reading this quote to Cyril 89 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:50.439 Weck during a phone conversation and what response by going on an angry, profanity 90 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:56.399 filled rant about the absurdity of that explanation and how doctor Griffin had no idea 91 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:00.279 what he was talking about. As far as Weck was concerned, I could 92 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.439 only have died after all the alcohol metabolized out of his body, meaning that 93 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:08.000 at the very least he was still alive for about a day and a half 94 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:12.879 after he went missing. Doctor Griffin has to remember that Jack was supposedly so 95 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:16.399 intoxicated that he really wasn't aware of what was going on around him. He 96 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:20.000 had jumped from party to party to party to another bar, gotten kicked out 97 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:24.519 of a bar, going to another bar, and really was in that stubborn 98 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.120 phase where people are trying to help him, and he's saying like, I'm 99 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:29.519 not going to tell you where I live. I'm going back to drink some 100 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:31.360 more, and he runs away from this kid who's trying to help him. 101 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:35.480 So the fact that you would tell me that that scientific thing that's going to 102 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:41.319 happen after he dies with the red and white blood cells all that's gonna metabolize 103 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:46.000 a two point two blood alcohol content like this kid's drunk as a skunk. 104 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:53.759 And I just don't see that process occurring to leave no alcohol in his blood, 105 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.800 very very little in his stomach and urine. I just don't buy it. 106 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:01.079 I'm with doctor Wack on this one. I wish I could have been 107 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.920 a fly on the wall for that conversation with doctor Wech. He was probably 108 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:09.959 like, fiz f fat, what is he effing talking about? That isn't 109 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:15.199 effing true because it is so ridiculous sounding. I've never heard anything like that, 110 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.120 and I think it's something where someone who's a scientist or a doctor believes 111 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.639 that, well, if we're telling a lay person this, they're probably not 112 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.839 going to understand anyway, so they're not going to fact check it. And 113 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:28.120 then doctor Weck is like, no, it's just not how the human body 114 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.879 works once it's deceased. Yes, I read the passage in the book, 115 00:08:31.919 --> 00:08:35.759 and doctor Wech did use a lot of f bombs, and knowing his voice, 116 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:43.120 it would have been quite hilarious to witness. However, it's worth mentioning, 117 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.200 and we alluded to this in Part one. The bacteria can produce alcohol 118 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:52.240 after a body decays, which causes the deceased person's blood alcohol level to rise, 119 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:58.559 which didn't happen here, right, Yeah, exactly. So theoretically, 120 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.120 even if Jack didn't drink anything at all before he died, alcohol could still 121 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.720 have shown up in his system if his body started decomposing. But the problem, 122 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.360 of course, is that there didn't appear to be much, if any 123 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:16.080 decomposition on Jack's body when he was found, even though he had supposedly been 124 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:18.679 dead for five days. So no matter how you look at it, the 125 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:24.159 timeline and the evidence just does not seem to support the conclusions of Griffin or 126 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:28.919 Streams. What did always maintain that the amount of stubble on Jack's face is 127 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.360 the strongest piece of evidence that he was alive for a couple of days after 128 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.679 he disappeared, But there is a reason to be skeptical of this as well. 129 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:41.759 Even though a number of people who interacted with Jack on the night he 130 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:46.240 went missing were certain that he was clean shaven at that time, you have 131 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:50.799 to remember that many of them were drinking at the time and could have misremembered 132 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.440 this detail. And it's also worth mentioning that a person's facial hair can appear 133 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.440 to be thicker after death, not because it continued to grow, but because 134 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:03.799 the skin and soft tissues surrounding the hair can shrink and retract, giving off 135 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.679 the false impression of growth. I did not know that. That's very interesting, 136 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.159 so that could that could have explained it. But I feel like doctor 137 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:15.120 Weck is smart enough to know that this guy's does he does like Michael Jackson's 138 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:18.200 death and oh like, I mean, isn't he in tons of cases like 139 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:20.240 Casey Anthony and stuff? Oh yeah, we're going to talk about some of 140 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.519 his cases in our next passage. But he's ninety two years old and he's 141 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.159 still working, and he was at crime con last year. Yeah, this 142 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.720 guy just doesn't stop. No, no, no. He was at a 143 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.720 homicide investigator's research group that I was at one year, and he's absolutely fascinating. 144 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:37.159 I just feel like he would have not focused on the facial hair if 145 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.480 it wasn't beyond what the natural process would be, because he seems to cling 146 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:48.080 to that detail. I also think that when you talk about this idea that 147 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.879 you know, alcohol in your system rises when you die. Remember, he 148 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.759 did have a tiny trace of it in his stomach in urine, so that 149 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.679 could explain, you know, if he was alive and he did process all 150 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:03.080 of the alcohol that was in his blood, that start of decomposition could be 151 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:07.799 that small trace amount of alcohol they find elsewhere in his body. But they 152 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.679 said their blood alcohol level rises. So it just seems sort of counterintuitive that 153 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.519 you'd have this amount of alcohol in your stomach but none in your body. 154 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.399 That is weird. I don't know, like because is it produced in the 155 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:22.679 stomach or is it produced in the liver? Is it produced everywhere? I 156 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.559 have a feeling it's not just isolated to the stomach. So something just doesn't 157 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:31.480 seem to be adding up here. The way the original Unsolved Mystery segment about 158 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.480 this story was structured was that it spent the first few minutes talking about Cyril 159 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:41.080 Wecht in his background before it delved into Jack's case and doctor Wex's work on 160 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:45.360 the investigation. So obviously it was produced in such a way to portray Wect 161 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:48.159 in the best possible light. But even though he has undoubtedly had a long 162 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:52.600 and storied career and examined thousands of cases, some of which are among the 163 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:56.720 most famous murders of all time, it's not like he's been without controversy. 164 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.000 Wact was one of the biggest critics of the War and Commission's conclusions about the 165 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.480 assassination of John F. Kennedy, as he never believed that Lee Harvey Oswald 166 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:09.639 acted alone, and he has always claimed that Kurt Cobaine's death was murder not 167 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:15.240 a suicide. Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with those conclusions. 168 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:18.519 All that being said, on this particular case, I would definitely agree a 169 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.840 lot more with Weckt than Stephen Griffin or Thomas Streams. Since there were no 170 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:28.399 food particles found in Jack's air passages, it seems very unlikely that he would 171 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.080 have choked to death on his own vombit. So We's conclusion about the brain 172 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.600 hemorrhage caused by skull fractures seems like the correct one. But the big question 173 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.919 is where did these fractures come from. It's wild because even Wex says he 174 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.600 doesn't believe it's from an impact from like a fight or anything like that. 175 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.559 That's where I would have thought they came from. That he did get in 176 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:52.200 a scuffle with somebody, maybe they did try to get revenge on this rival 177 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.159 fraternity, and he got hit in a way that caused a hemorrhage and he 178 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:58.919 died. But WEX saying is more likely that there was some kind of fall 179 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.399 all our accident, and that hemorrhage would have caused him, you know, 180 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:07.879 to lose his life. Now, the question here, though, is that 181 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:11.799 when they do the autopsy initially and they ruled that there's nothing, are they 182 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.600 ruled that he chokes on his own vomit right, he asphyxiates, but there's 183 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.000 nothing in his lungs. What do you guys thinks going on? Is this 184 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.159 people who just aren't used to these kinds of investigations. I don't feel like 185 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:30.159 they're they're operating out of ill intent either. You think they're in over their 186 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.440 head. They were rushed, they already had an assumption or already told what 187 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.240 had happened, and so they just kind of checked it off. But it 188 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:41.600 seems really odd that a doctor and a coroner would both say, my professional 189 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.120 opinion doesn't matter. I'm just gonna go with what i've been told and not 190 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:48.679 what I see. Why that's discrepancy. I mean, I've seen no indication 191 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:54.080 that either of these doctors were facing pressure from anyone saying that please rule this 192 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.559 an accidental death. Choking on vombit because we want to cover up what happens. 193 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.759 I do genuinely think that they probably just made a mistake, that they 194 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.759 may have just been an experience. They were just not used to doing a 195 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:07.720 lot of autopsies the cases of this, so they just came up with these 196 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.039 conclusions and made up all this nonsense about white blood cells and red blood cells, 197 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:16.279 just thinking that the average layman would buy it. But they had no 198 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:18.559 idea that within three years of this case would wind up in the hands of 199 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.440 Cyril Wecht, who knew exactly what he was talking about and would pretty much 200 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.919 blow a hole in all their conclusions. And how many cases do we cover 201 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:33.000 or out there in general in true crime where it looks like there's a conspiracy 202 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:39.080 with law enforcement or with the DA, and there's this big, you know, 203 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.480 kind of nefarious thing that's happening. But most of the time it seems 204 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:48.320 to be it's just buck covering because of either laziness, poor police work, 205 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:52.559 just some kind of ineptitude early on, and then all the actions that they 206 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:58.360 take thereafter are to protect themselves, to protect their reputations, and it comes 207 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:03.600 off looking like there's this big conspiracy exactly, and a lot of the time 208 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.559 it's probably not that they're covering for someone. They just don't want to admit 209 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.240 that they're wrong, so they'll pretty much just come up with any excuse to 210 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:16.120 justify their original conclusions, and it looks like they're doing something nefarious. Well, 211 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:20.120 even if Jack's death was purely accidental and no floul play was involved, 212 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:26.080 you can definitely understand why there might have been a cover up because at twenty 213 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:31.080 years old, Jack was still technically below the legal drinking age. One of 214 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:35.120 the most bizarre side stories of this case, which we've not yet discussed, 215 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.039 is some legal action which was taken against Al Patties, one of the taverns 216 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:45.360 Jack visited on the night he disappeared. Months after Jack's body was found, 217 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:50.519 the Pennsylvania State Police Bureau of Liquor Control Enforcement filed a complaint against one of 218 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:56.960 the bartenders at Al Patties over allegations that he served alcohol to Jack that night. 219 00:15:56.600 --> 00:16:02.919 A preliminary hearing took place, but even though there were reportedly around twenty 220 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:07.759 witnesses who had seen Jack drinking at the tavern that night, only one witness, 221 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.159 an I UP student, agreed to show up and testify against the bartender. 222 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:15.919 The witness was shown a photo lineup inside the courtroom, and when he 223 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.759 failed to correctly pick out the bartender, the case was dismissed. But here's 224 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:26.120 the really weird part. When the photo lineup was taking place, a man 225 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.320 dressed in a suit and tie was sitting in the courtroom next to the bartender's 226 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.879 defense attorney, but the real bartender was actually waiting outside in the hallway. 227 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.720 Well, wouldn't you know it, a picture of the man in the suit 228 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.519 and tie was included in the photo lineup, and this is the picture that 229 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:47.399 the eyewitness picked out. So it seems like a conscious decision was made to 230 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:52.480 bring an impostor into the courtroom in order to fool the witness into identifying the 231 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:57.320 wrong man. You'd think that the prosecution would have strenuously objected to a tactic 232 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:02.639 like this, but they apparently let the whole thing slide and allowed the case 233 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:07.359 to get dismissed. I mean, I have no idea if this whole charade 234 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:11.079 was a completely separate, unrelated incident which had no connection to Jack's death, 235 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:17.240 but it's incredibly bizarre and just gives off the impression that something hinky was going 236 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:21.480 on. It's almost like the authorities, we're going through some sort of charade 237 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:26.640 to give Jack's family the false impression that someone would be held accountable for his 238 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:30.519 death, but they didn't actually want to go through the process of punishing anyone. 239 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:34.200 Well, it sounds like the defense attorneys are pretty clever, or I'll 240 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.880 just say that to do something like that, to put a man in a 241 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:44.160 suit and tie next to them and have the actual bartender out in the lobby 242 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.680 waiting or out in the wings waiting, and you're right, eye witnesses are 243 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:51.480 going to put those contextual clues around what they're looking at. Right, I'm 244 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:55.400 picking out somebody who is facing a court date. There's a guy in the 245 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:57.079 suit. Here's a guy in a suit, and they're probably similar, so 246 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.559 they pick him out. We know that's problematic no matter what, if they 247 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:06.480 had picked the right person, it's problematic, right, So I don't know 248 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:11.240 here, It's it's hard Like I definitely know that when bartenders sign up to 249 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.759 take on that job, they're taking on a legal responsibility to not overserve someone. 250 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.839 But if you think about how bars work, how quick moving they are, 251 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:25.640 how packed they are, it's not like Jack was sitting across from him 252 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:27.720 in a quiet bar, talking and sharing his life and having him poor drinks 253 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:32.079 for him. You know, Jack is with tons of college kids. You've 254 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:33.559 all been to bars like this where you're like, please look at me, 255 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.359 Please get me a drink. Do you know what I mean? You're waiting 256 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:40.920 for thirty minutes. Your fraternity brothers can be running up to the bar and 257 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.000 grabbing your drinks too. So while bartenders take on the responsibility, it's really 258 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:49.039 hard to legally charge them and convict them of any kind of foul play. 259 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:55.079 In this scenario, it's a probably a young kid at a bar right twenty 260 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.680 six years old, serving hundreds of kids every night, and he served this 261 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.000 kid too much. Should there be some kind of accountability, sure, but 262 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.519 not what the family deserved in this case. They deserve so much, so 263 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.960 much more, at least authenticity, transparency, communication. Even had the process 264 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:15.559 been handled differently, I think the family would have been in a better position, 265 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.920 maybe not having it ruled a homicide or foul play, But it seems 266 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:25.440 like they were kind of begging for more initially, and they were kind of 267 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:29.000 shut out with them saying it's an accident. I'm so sorry for your loss 268 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:30.880 be well, you know, and that's kind of where they felt like, 269 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.400 wait, there has to be more than just you saying goodbye to me. 270 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:37.559 Yeah, it's almost like they were trying to make this bartender the fall guy 271 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:41.640 or something like that, just to give the family some sort of comfort, 272 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:44.279 where it's like, well, it looks like we're trying to punish someone, 273 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.079 but the case was dismissed, so there's nothing more that we can do, 274 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:51.400 because I really don't know like how many times they would devote time and resources 275 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:55.000 to take a bartender to court and try to charge him over the death of 276 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.680 a student. I mean, it's not like this was a multiperson car accident 277 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:03.200 where someone who was drinking it will underage went out driving and got someone killed. 278 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.240 This was just like a kid who was drinking only a couple months under 279 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.200 the legal drinking age, and then he went out and fell in a stairwell. 280 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.039 So it just seemed like it was a charade of some sort. Though 281 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.200 I do find it fascinating that the Pennsylvania State Police has a Bureau of Liquor 282 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.400 Control Enforcement, that they actually have an entire department devoted to this. They 283 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.680 do they do, so that's a real thing. They're the ones who hire 284 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.599 like underage kids to go in and try to buy alcohol. They're the ones 285 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.960 who work with like fake ID manufacturing. Yeah, it's a big deal, 286 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:36.519 huge deal. I just wish that I was at that courtroom to see the 287 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:41.319 big reveal when it was revealed, who was the man that you saw serving 288 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.119 the drinks? And she points to the guy with the glasses who's sitting beside 289 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:51.279 the defense attorney, and the judge is looking at the prosecutors looking, and 290 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:55.720 then the defense attorney is like, so this is the man, but it 291 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.960 actually isn't the man. The real man outside in the hallway, and everyone 292 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.240 was like, oh my god, this looks like I can see with Lionel 293 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:10.599 Huts from The Simpsons, how the correct guy is right over there. It's 294 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:15.200 also worth noting that Jack's original autopsy found traces of cocaine in his system, 295 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.279 though they were apparently quite small, and this is the exact wording which was 296 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:23.359 used in the report quote A metabolite of cocaine was found, indicating the usage 297 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:27.720 of cocaine. However, presses of the metabolite in the blood without the parent 298 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:33.920 compound makes it difficult to accurately define the influence of the substance on an individual 299 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:38.160 end quote. Given that Jack's quote unquote big brother at the fraternity was rumored 300 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:44.200 to be a cocaine dealer on campus, this detail is particularly interesting. But 301 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.000 even if Jack did use some drugs, it's unclear if it could have played 302 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:52.160 any role in his death. When Marlene gentle Cores spoke to one of Jack's 303 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.039 former roommates, he recounted one occasion in the past where Jack did try cocaine, 304 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.440 but he was apparently left pretty frightened by how it made his heartbeat and 305 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.400 gave off the impression that he had no desire to try it again. I 306 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:07.640 can't see that playing a role in his death. I mean, you think 307 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.440 about, you know, getting drug tested, and how long they say certain 308 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.240 things last in your system. For some things in the way they test you 309 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.720 know, your you can show up ninety days later. And this was an 310 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:19.759 autopsy, not like, oh I'm alive, let me go into my local 311 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:23.880 testing center and get a blood test one, you know. I don't I 312 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.160 don't see this being a major deal. I feel like Jack, like we've 313 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.960 said before, was like many other college kids who say like, yeah, 314 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.160 shoot, I'll try that. I'll try anything once and Jack goes not for 315 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.880 me, But we don't know when he tried it and how much of a 316 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.920 residue that would have left in his system. I doubt have any influence on 317 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.799 his death. And some of the listeners who are longtime listeners will know. 318 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:51.240 I've spoken about my experience going to rehab like nine years ago, and I 319 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:56.400 remember having to be constantly urine tested, and while I was there, I 320 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.519 remember it was like near the end, it was I think it the twenty 321 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:03.640 eight day was the last time maybe I was tested. And because they did 322 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.400 intermittent tests throughout the whole time you're there, just to make sure you're not 323 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:10.079 like sneaking anything in, and they can tell closer to when you've done it 324 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:12.119 because of the level that you're going to be kind of registering on the urine 325 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:18.480 test. I mean, I was testing positive like right up until the end. 326 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.440 And so I think, like you said it, some drugs can take 327 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:26.200 a lot longer. There's a lot of different factors they can kind of underlie 328 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.920 exactly how long you're going to be testing positive. There's some ways you can 329 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.440 kind of speed up the process that are a little bit controversial, But I 330 00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.200 just don't think if you have one single metabolite that is going to have any 331 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.960 influence on behavior and kind of played any role in his death. Yeah, 332 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:44.200 I was going to ask you for your opinion on that. If he had 333 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.640 taken cocaine on a previous occasion, like weeks earlier, do you think a 334 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.720 small metabolite would still possibly be in a system at the time of his death? 335 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:56.759 For sure? Yeah, I think so. Another frustrating aspect of the 336 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:02.680 original investigation is how Thomas dreams To determined that Jack's probable time of death was 337 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:07.640 at around two am on Saturday, October seventeenth. The problem is that he 338 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.440 seemingly based this time on nothing more than the word of Tom Brennan, the 339 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:17.759 last confirmed witness of seeing Jack alive. As you'll recall, Brennan claimed that 340 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:22.440 Jack was very intoxicated when they crossed paths, and he tried to make arrangements 341 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.240 for Jack to spend the night at his dorm, Elkin Hall, but Jack 342 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:30.720 gave him the slip and took off. Given that Elkin Hall was located on 343 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.279 campus only about a block away from the stairwell, then yes, the timeline 344 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:40.039 would fit stream scenario of Jack walking down the stairs and passing out there. 345 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:45.119 But is Tom Brennan's account one hundred percent accurate? Well, on the surface, 346 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.279 there's no reason to believe that Brennan's not telling the truth, as he 347 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:53.519 didn't interview in the Indiana Gazette following the discovery of Jack's body, and it 348 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:59.519 sounds like he was cooperative with the police and had no issues openly sharing his 349 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.640 story with Marley and Gentlecore when she contacted him years later. But it must 350 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:10.079 be noted that there's a passage and justice wanted where Gentlecore mentioned speaking with one 351 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:15.880 of Jack's former roommates who said this about Brennan quote, I know the guy, 352 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.240 and I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him end quote. 353 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:23.079 Indeed, there are a few contradictions with Brennan's story. Brennan told Gentlecore 354 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.119 that he didn't know Jack that well, but during his original statement to police, 355 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.440 he told him he knew Jack for about a year and then drinking with 356 00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:33.960 him several times. Is that that big of a discrepancy? Like, there's 357 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.519 many of people who are like, I don't I hate Ashley right, And 358 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.920 I'm like, oh, that's cool. And then are there plenty of people 359 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:48.079 to say that. I mean the I know a couple for sure, but 360 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:52.200 but you know, like I'm acquaintances with many people, and I would tell 361 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:53.880 you I don't know them that well, but I could be social with them. 362 00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:00.839 So like if I'm part of a social organization like a sorority, right, 363 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.279 I with sorority sisters, with many girls that i'd go out and study 364 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.279 with or drink with. But I didn't know anything about them. They weren't 365 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:10.799 in my little group, you know what I mean. We socialized together, 366 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:14.559 but that's it. It was kind of the surface level friendship, right. 367 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.880 So Brennan could have easily been misunderstood or kind of taken out of context by 368 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.359 saying like I didn't know him that well. You know, I know him, 369 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:22.799 but I don't know him that well, and then saying, yeah, 370 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.079 I've known him for about a year. I've been drinking with him several times. 371 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.440 That doesn't mean you know him. So are they nitpicking or is Brennan 372 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.480 somebody to start raising eyebrows at. It could go either way. It's possible 373 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.720 it's just nitpicking because he was interviewed for the book maybe like over twenty years 374 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.720 after this incident originally took place, so he could be misremembering things where it's 375 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.319 like he drank with Jack a few times, but in the context they weren't 376 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:49.160 close friends or anything, so that's why he said he didn't know them all 377 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.200 that well. It does feel just a bit like semantics, because I agree 378 00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.720 with you, Ash. I think that you can go out and drink with 379 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.400 people and have party friends, but are you really close with You're close in 380 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.240 the situation where there's alcohol, are drugs involved, and you can have a 381 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.680 good time, but do you know anything about their lives? Do you know 382 00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:14.000 anything about like you know their family, their trauma, those things that truly 383 00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:18.240 make them who they are? And if the answer is no, then I 384 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:21.799 think, yeah, you could go drinking with somebody several times and still say 385 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:26.839 that you weren't that close to them. When the Indiana Gazette published a story 386 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.440 about this case years after the fact, a former female I UP study came 387 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.000 forward and claimed that on the night Jack went missing, she saw him at 388 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.400 a party at the Sigtal fraternity house sometime between twelve thirty and one am. 389 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.480 The student claimed that Jack and his fraternity brothers left the party and went outside 390 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.519 to participate in a fight with the rival fraternity fi dealt, but when the 391 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:52.279 fraternity brothers returned to the house, Jack was not with them and she never 392 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:56.359 saw him again. While Brennan claimed that when he encountered Jack outside Calico's bar, 393 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.599 Jack made mention about wanting to fight, I delt. But the problem 394 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.279 is that, as far as I can tell, even though Jack can be 395 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.440 placed at a sorority house party and at least two downtown taverns that night, 396 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:12.079 this female student is the only person who has ever plays Jack at the sig 397 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:18.200 Tal fraternity party. So could this student have been misremembering things or is Brennan 398 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.200 not telling the entire truth about his encounter with Jack. There's also another eyewitness 399 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.640 account which seems to contradict this student's story because when Jack was kicked out of 400 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:32.960 Al Patty's tavern and walked across the street to Calico's, he supposedly cross passed 401 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:37.759 with two other female sorority students, who claimed that Jack uttered these odd words 402 00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.240 quote, gee, thanks guys, you just saved me. You just saved 403 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.839 my life. So could Jack have stop by the fraternity party after this conversation 404 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:49.119 and then returned to Calico's at a later time, or did Jack actually go 405 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.519 there after parting ways with Brennan. Oh, I think all the above are 406 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:57.160 possible. I think it's really difficult unless we know exactly when these people were 407 00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:02.200 asked these details. If you're talking a week later, or three years later 408 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.240 or twenty years later. I need to know when these people are telling you 409 00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:08.480 these accounts. And we know that, first of all, they're all probably 410 00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:12.079 drinking, so a lot of things can be misconstrued. A lot of timelines 411 00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:15.079 could be off. There could be a lot of kind of fill in the 412 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.519 blank moments where they go like, oh, yeah, I think this was 413 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:22.319 at this moment, and this is when it happened. So eyewitnesses are not 414 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:26.880 dependent or reliable anyway. Now, put alcohol with it and young kids all 415 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.559 kind of interacting, I think there's problems with even trying to dissect all that. 416 00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:34.319 And remember we have someone else who said after Al Patty's, he actually 417 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.599 went to go change clothes and then came back to Calico's or went to another 418 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:44.039 party. So there's just so many people saying so many different stories. Unless 419 00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:47.799 they're all to blame for this, they're all young kids who were drunk and 420 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:52.359 can't really remember the right details. And I keep coming back to zero wax 421 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.440 conclusion about the injuries likely coming from a fall and not from some kind of 422 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:02.759 fight or like blunt force trauma. So I will say that there is one 423 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:07.880 detail about Brennan's account which seems to poke a hole in the original cover story 424 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:12.960 about Jack's death. Thomas Streams speculated that the reason Jack walked down the stairwell 425 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:18.559 in the first place was to relieve himself. But here's an exact quote of 426 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:23.119 Cyril Wex's response to that theory during his Unsolved Mysteries interview. The other thing 427 00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.400 that puzzled me was I thought, gee, why would a young man and 428 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:30.880 in the early hours of the morning walk fifteen steps down a landing and another 429 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.759 five steps to urinate. I remember when I went to college, and I 430 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:40.319 remember what young men will do when they have to urinate if they are inebriated. 431 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:45.640 Not too many people have that kind of discretion and personal sensitivity end quote. 432 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.559 Of course, this should be taken as a personal assumption on doctor Wex's 433 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.039 part rather than a hard fact, as not everyone is going to act the 434 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.559 same way when they're drunk. But this idea is supported by Tom Brennan's story, 435 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.799 as he claimed while they were walking together at night, Jack briefly stopped 436 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:11.519 to urinate on someone's lists. That's why they call it. Yeah, Jack 437 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.240 briefly stopped to urinate on someone's lawn. He apparently did it right out there 438 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:19.400 in the open and made no attempt at discretion. So yes, this does 439 00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:25.079 make it seem less likely that Jack would later decide to walk down a scarewell 440 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:29.559 in order to conceal himself. You're absolutely right, like, not everybody reacts 441 00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:32.759 the exact same way. But i mean, think about what's happening when someone's 442 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.680 so inebriated and they're walking around guys do they'll like lean up against the wall 443 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.279 and just whip it out and go to the bathroom. Or they'll lean up 444 00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:42.160 against a car and just start peeing. And obviously Jack just stopped and pete 445 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:47.119 in someone's yard. So it is odd that I would need all of a 446 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:52.359 sudden, as I'm getting more and more drunk, I have the wherewithal to 447 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:56.039 not tell someone where I live, to not stay put when someone's helping me. 448 00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:57.319 But now I'm like, oh, no one can see me go to 449 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.240 the bathroom, let me hide over were here. That does seem a little 450 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.480 bit odd. And this was back during the nineteen eighties, before you had 451 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.680 the risk of going on the sex offenders list for peeing in public, so 452 00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:13.640 I don't think Jack had any discretion back then. A detail about Brennan's account 453 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:17.480 which always bothered Marlene Gentlecore as that he described Jack as hiding in the bushes 454 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:22.440 when he went inside Alcan Hall, which seemed to imply that Jack was attempting 455 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.920 to avoid someone. And like we previously mentioned, when Jack encountered those two 456 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:31.039 female sorority students outside al Patties, he made a comment about them having saved 457 00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:36.680 his life. That comment is particularly interesting when you remember that Jack had been 458 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.319 removed from the tavern for getting into an altercation with another student, so perhaps 459 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:45.200 he was fearful about possible retaliation. Well, in spite of the skull fractures, 460 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:50.039 there were no other noticeable bruises, injuries, and defensive wounds on the 461 00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:52.799 rest of Jack's body, aside from a small cut over his left eye, 462 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:58.240 so I don't get the impression that Jack was involved in a violent physical altercation 463 00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.440 prior to his death. One of the most prevalent rumors was that Jack was 464 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:06.160 killed because of injuries he suffered during a fight with the rival of fraternity. 465 00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:09.400 But while it seems like such an altercation did take place that night, the 466 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:14.079 biggest issue I have with this theory is that an awful lot of people would 467 00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.759 need to be involved in the cobra. It's hard to imagine the being able 468 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:21.559 to keep a secret like this for over thirty five years without saying anything. 469 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:25.359 So whatever happened to Jack, I suspect that only a small handful of individuals 470 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:31.200 know the full truth. For me to think that multiple people observed something that 471 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:36.839 would end in a kid's death and no one ever came forward, you know, 472 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.960 you have so many people that wouldn't be held responsible if they just simply 473 00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:45.400 knew what happened, or they made a mistake and they said, oh my 474 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:51.359 god, here's the three guys that actually did this. I can't see at 475 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:58.279 this age with multiple eyes on the issue this being kept a secret. Well. 476 00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:01.920 Doctor Weck did conclude Jack's head injuries were more consistent with a fall than 477 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:07.079 a blow. He found it unlikely that they were caused by him falling down 478 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.199 the stairwell. If he had stumbled from near the top, there was a 479 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:15.559 ten foot landing located fifteen steps below, which would have broken his ball, 480 00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:20.719 and there were five other steps below that, So how did Jack's body wind 481 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.960 up at the very bottom? No matter how you interpret the physical evidence, 482 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:29.480 I still have an incredibly hard time believing that Jack could have been in the 483 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:34.440 stairwell during the entire five days he was missing. If he died early Saturday 484 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.360 morning, I could buy that he remained undiscovered over the weekend, but he 485 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:43.320 was not found until Wednesday night. This means that people were attending classes at 486 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:47.320 the adjacent Waant Hall for three days and no one saw Jack, even though 487 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:53.280 there were windows directly overlooking the stairwell. But if Jack's body was deliberately placed 488 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:59.000 there after he died, what caused his injuries and where was he during this 489 00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:02.199 five day window? College students walk around quite oblivious, right, They have 490 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.960 at the time maybe a walkman, you know, and their headphones on and 491 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.639 they're kind of in their own head. They're talking to people, they're in 492 00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:15.159 a rush to get from class to class, and you know, for me, 493 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.440 I can understand how students wouldn't see them. But there's facility individuals. 494 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:27.880 There's you know, janitorial staff, there's maintenance people. There's so many individuals 495 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.760 who make a college campus run and they are the ones who take their smoke 496 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:36.400 break in odd places behind the building off you know, by the maintenance room, 497 00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:37.920 and he needed an air room. I mean, there's people that their 498 00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:42.559 jobs are to be in those areas. So I do find it really difficult 499 00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:45.440 that no one saw them. Students, I get it, they're in their 500 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.719 own little world. They're just walking past these places and not really looking at 501 00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:52.039 their surroundings. But not every single staff member on campus, not every single 502 00:35:52.440 --> 00:36:00.239 person who would have passed that. It does seem incredibly odd. Yeah. 503 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:05.440 The Unsaw Mystery segment actually brings the camera crew up into the classroom that was 504 00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:08.440 overlooking the stairwell, and if in broad daylight, you get a very clear 505 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:12.519 view of the bottom. So I have a feeling that even if the students 506 00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.280 were oblivious and didn't look out the window and notice the body, I think 507 00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:19.800 that a professor or a teacher or a janitor at some point just would have 508 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:22.079 taken a quick glance and just happened to say, hey, there's a body 509 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:27.480 down there in that stairwell and reported it to the authorities before Wednesday. Hit. 510 00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:30.119 Yeah, I don't buy it for a second. That's way too long 511 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:34.800 with a time frame for his body to lay there undiscovered, like for nobody 512 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:38.159 else to either use the stairwell or view it from that classroom. I agree 513 00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:43.800 college students can be extremely oblivious, but there's just no way that his body 514 00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:47.440 could have been there the entire time and nobody discovered it. Well. It's 515 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:52.360 possible that the truth leads back to Jack's quote unquote renegade fraternity Sigma tau Gama, 516 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.800 as it sounds like a number of people felt that Jack was too nice 517 00:36:55.800 --> 00:37:00.519 of a person to be associated with such a group of troublemaker. In retrospect, 518 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:05.360 a number of people from Jack's personal life now believe he had been given 519 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:08.360 off the impression that he wanted to leave their fraternity, but felt there might 520 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:14.320 be consequences if he tried to quit. As an example, Jack was particularly 521 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.280 close with one of his former high school teachers and the teacher's wife, whom 522 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:22.480 he almost considered to be his second parents. They both claimed that in the 523 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:25.159 weeks prior to his death, Jack phoned them a number of times and would 524 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:29.840 ask if they needed him to return to Penn Hills to help them with anything 525 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:34.360 on the weekends. Jack's mother, Elaine, also recalled receiving phone calls like 526 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:37.320 that, it was Jacque appeared to be reaching for reasons for her to ask 527 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:42.639 him to come home. They described Jack as sounding trouble during these calls, 528 00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.519 and the implication seemed to be that if they gave him a convenient excuse to 529 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:50.239 travel to Penn Hills on the weekends, then he wouldn't have to spend that 530 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:53.800 time hanging out and parting with his fraternity brothers who were likely involved in some 531 00:37:53.880 --> 00:38:00.000 unsavory activities. Indeed, the four roommates Jack was living with at that time 532 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:04.639 were not members of Sake Tao, and they suspected he was trying to disassociate 533 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:08.480 himself from the fraternity. The most frustrating lead in this case is the message 534 00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:14.079 from the retired Indiana Borough police officer who claimed that Jack had asked him for 535 00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:17.000 protection two weeks before he died. But this man has never gone on the 536 00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:22.000 record or provided any specific details about why Jack needed protection or who he was 537 00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:25.719 afraid of. But if he was telling the truth, the fact that a 538 00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:30.679 retired police officer got cold feet about speaking out suggests that there was a culture 539 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:36.320 of fear pervading over Indiana County during this time period. And it might explain 540 00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:40.239 why so few people have been willing to talk. It's concerning because especially, 541 00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:44.559 like you said, it's that police officer for me who said, you know, 542 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.239 he had come to me out of fear two weeks earlier, and he's 543 00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:52.679 expressing to other people kind of this discomfort. But I'll tell you it sounds 544 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.480 so silly, but when you join a sorority, in a fraternity, it 545 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:00.679 really is burned into you that it's like this, I mean like almost like 546 00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:05.320 you're taking a blood oath to join this group of people, and you're kind 547 00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:08.039 of indoctrinated into this idea that you can't leave. That's you for life, 548 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:13.559 Delta Gamma for life, right, Sigtao for life. And again, remember 549 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:15.960 these boys had went they went through a lot. It would have been really 550 00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:21.880 traumatic for them to do something that got their charter revoked. They all would 551 00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:27.159 have been fighting to keep their place on campus and show people how important Sigtao 552 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:31.199 was. And then you know they're trying to say, hey, we're still 553 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:36.239 here even though we aren't recognized anymore. And so I could see a lot 554 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:42.239 of them being like obsessive crazy about their organization and saying like you're not going 555 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:45.079 to betray us. Now, too many people have betrayed us. You're not 556 00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:49.000 leaving. You made an oath. It's it's that serious. When you're in 557 00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:52.519 college, right, it feels very serious. And so remember there's a lot 558 00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:55.119 of things going on there. There's a reason they were barred from campus. 559 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:00.800 His big brother was dealing cocaine, and maybe he knew of things that were 560 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:05.280 way worse than just I mean, okay, any sharing cocaine with anybody would 561 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.599 be bad, right, but maybe he knew of something that wasn't like, 562 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:10.679 Hey, I'm just this rich white kid who wants to make some money and 563 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:15.320 sell cocaine to other rich white kids. Maybe there was something deeper going on. 564 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:21.840 Maybe someone was threatening him. It's something was happening. Is that why 565 00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:25.719 he died? I don't know, because remember a fall is what supposedly could 566 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:30.440 have caused these injuries. Even doctor Wex says that, so are the boys 567 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:34.800 really trying to help him and heal him and then he dies and like, 568 00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:36.960 oh, we can't have this on our hands and they just get rid of 569 00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:40.480 him. Is it something like that where they weren't at fault, They didn't 570 00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:45.559 cause his death other than drinking like any other college kid, what a big 571 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:51.440 brother like some of his associates were around while they were partying, and maybe 572 00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:54.159 these people are like where he gets his cocaine, and so they are a 573 00:40:54.159 --> 00:41:00.599 little more serious of individuals, and maybe they were the ones that pushed for 574 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:05.400 a cover up when this happened because they didn't want to be questioned or involved 575 00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:08.480 in any capacity. Or you could have seen big brother who was the one 576 00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:16.000 going shoot this could end up exposing my criminal dealings, and so I want 577 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:20.800 to be able to protect myself and not get banned from the university, have 578 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:24.960 his mark on my permanent record. You know, what's happened to Jack has 579 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:30.119 already happened. You know, we can't really help him now, even though 580 00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:32.760 they could have. That could have just been kind of the pervasive narrative that 581 00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.840 was being spun at that time so that nobody got in trouble. I mean, 582 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:42.119 I don't know who particularly was involved, but it just there just seems 583 00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.320 to be so many things that are pointing back to the fraternity brothers and the 584 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:51.400 big brother having this cocaine connection just does seem like this tantalizing clue, Like 585 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:58.519 how if in any way did this play a role in Jack's death. Even 586 00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.840 though he's never been named public, Jack's big brother from the fraternity seems to 587 00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:06.840 be a key figure in this story. It's unclear if he had an alibi 588 00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:09.679 that night, but the official story seems to be that Jack and his big 589 00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:14.559 brother spent the first part of the evening at the sorority party, but got 590 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:19.519 separated after Jack was kicked out of al Patties. Since the big brother was 591 00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:24.000 reportedly a major cocaine dealer on campus and Jack was found wearing his fraternity jacket, 592 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:29.480 one possible theory is that Jack might have been the victim of mistaken identity. 593 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:32.559 If this other guide made some enemies who noticed that Jack was wearing a 594 00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:37.719 jacket with his name on it, they could have decided to attack him before 595 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.000 they realized it was the wrong person. If they caused some serious injuries, 596 00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.960 they may have taken Jack somewhere and attempted to nurse him back to health over 597 00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:51.280 the next few days before he passed away. I think that's very possible. 598 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.079 And you know, if you were going to conceal something, if you all 599 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:57.440 sat down together and you said, hey, guys, we didn't do anything 600 00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.360 wrong. We actually helped Jack. We tried to help Jack. I could 601 00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:07.360 see kids convincing each other that they really weren't at fault, like Jack's parents 602 00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:09.920 were going to lose their sudd no matter what. Right, his injuries were 603 00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:13.840 so bad that he was going to die, and we didn't do anything wrong. 604 00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:16.480 We actually tried to help him. So you know, the outcomes the 605 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:22.320 same, like why hurt ourselves and throw away our futures like okay, and 606 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:27.920 kind of being able to justify and explain away because there was no foul play. 607 00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:30.480 Right, we tried to do the right thing for them at age twenty 608 00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:34.960 twenty one, right what they thought was the right thing. Obviously, the 609 00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:38.760 right thing would have been to get immediate medical attention, to tell a trusted 610 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:44.679 adult and get him medical care immediately, but they didn't, and at the 611 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:50.199 time were they able to convince themselves that they had done nothing wrong. So 612 00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.320 if you remember the episode we previously released about the death of Kurt's Soba, 613 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:58.039 one of the most prominent theories in that case is that Kurt attended a party 614 00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.760 at a duplex and spent a couple of day is recovering on a cot inside 615 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:06.039 the basement, possibly because he had a negative reaction to some alcohol. He 616 00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:09.320 drank there. Since Kurt was only seventeen years old and well below the legal 617 00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:13.760 drinking age, the people who hosted the party may have thought there would be 618 00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.519 a lot of blowback if they took him to get proper medical attention, which 619 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:20.119 is why they hoped they could nurse him back to health on their own. 620 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:23.239 But when things didn't go as planned and Kurt died, they took his body 621 00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:27.719 to a nearby ravine and dubbed it there. Well, you have to wonder 622 00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:30.559 if a similar situation happened to Jack. Though his issues would have been caused 623 00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:36.360 by a head injury, not alcohol, the fact that Jack had undigested stomach 624 00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.320 contents at the time of his death seems to indicate that he was fed by 625 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:43.880 whoever was taking care of them. We can't get in trouble. I mean, 626 00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:47.800 there's a lot of kids. That's why people die in college dorm rooms 627 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:51.719 and at parties. People are like, well, let's roll them on their 628 00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:53.239 side, let's try to help them. Oh my god, you know they 629 00:44:53.280 --> 00:45:00.440 died. Oh what do we do. I think that's a very real and 630 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:07.119 probable outcome for this case, and even that could explain the head injuries or 631 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:09.760 something. It could be something as simple where he's recovering from alcohol poisoning or 632 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:13.920 something and then just rolls out of bed and hits his head, and whoever 633 00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:15.639 is responsible is like, well, he shouldn't have been drinking, we shouldn't 634 00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:17.920 have had him here to begin with, so we're not going to get the 635 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:23.320 medical attention and contact the authorities. And I could literally see some young people 636 00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:28.400 of this age bracket being like, let's just shoot up a count of chunky 637 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:30.559 soup. We'll port down his throat. That's going to fix it, because 638 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:35.800 you have this idea that, like, you can fix this problem because when 639 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:37.000 you're a kid, that's what your mom does, you know, feeds you 640 00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:40.599 that type of food. So I could see them doing something like opening up 641 00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:45.440 his mouth and just like force feeding him soup or something. You know that 642 00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:49.840 is you don't really need to chew, just to get something into his stomach, 643 00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:53.800 because the undigested food in his stomach seems to be not something that he 644 00:45:53.840 --> 00:46:00.159 would have taken on his own, given the gravity of his head injury exactly. 645 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:04.079 That's interesting that they never specify what food he had in his stomach, 646 00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.000 because it seems most logical it would be something that isn't really solid like soup, 647 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:10.320 which he wouldn't have been able to eat on his own. Now. 648 00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:15.079 Even though this story has never been confirmed by any official sources, we've come 649 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:21.599 across a few online discussions and comment sections where someone has shared a rumor about 650 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:25.199 Jack being injured during a game of Donkey Kong. No, not the famous 651 00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:30.039 video game Donkey Kong, but rather a real life variation of it that Sigtao 652 00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:36.159 apparently liked to stage as a hazy activity. It would involve them rolling a 653 00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.480 keg of beer down a staircase and new pledges would have to climb up the 654 00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:44.199 steps to jump over it, much like how you have to dodge barrels while 655 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.679 playing the video game. Well, rumor has it that Jack got seriously injured 656 00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:52.159 while playing this version of Donkey Kong, but instead of getting a medical attention, 657 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:57.159 the responsible parties kept him somewhere for a few days before he died. 658 00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:00.119 Not out of the question, I mean, this is the silly stuff that 659 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:05.559 college could do at a party, right, And I mean I could see 660 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.760 the problem here is that people would have been watching. That would have been 661 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:13.840 twenty, you know, thirty people who were watching, and again none of 662 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:15.719 them came forward like, oh, man, I saw him hit his head. 663 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:19.519 He tried to jump over this barrel, but he hit the stare in 664 00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:22.280 front of him and staid with his head and he got up and the guys 665 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:24.960 took him, you know, took him away. That wouldn't be something that 666 00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:29.440 I wouldn't come forward with. I would think someone at that party would have 667 00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:31.519 said something. But I mean, this is not it's as silly as it 668 00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:37.559 seems. It's actually a very believable whole scenario. Yeah, I would explain 669 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.519 him why he has those injuries to his skull and how he could have been 670 00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:45.079 killed in a manner where they didn't directly kill him or murder him, but 671 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.480 they displayed negligence in his death. And it's the type of thing that could 672 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.840 destroy their futures if it came out. So that's why they decided to cover 673 00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:54.320 it up. But you didn't make a good point there that that hazing activities 674 00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:59.039 and fraternities generally take place in front of all the members, and that would 675 00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:01.159 be a lot of people would have to stay silent about this, as opposed 676 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:06.880 to perhaps one or two. I guess it depends how seriously you take your 677 00:48:07.239 --> 00:48:12.400 fraternity and this code of silence. It does seem like this would explain a 678 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.000 lot of things like that type of an activity. And it's interesting though because 679 00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:19.159 the time period being it was nineteen eighty seven, I think, right, 680 00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:22.639 Robin, Yeah, they wouldn't have had cell phones. So I think if 681 00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:25.159 something like this happened and somebody just fell off the face of the earth for 682 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.360 three days, at this day and age with cell phones and social media, 683 00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:37.960 you would have friends, family members being like something is wrong really quickly. 684 00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:42.400 You know, you notice the absence of somebody who's close to you very fast. 685 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:49.039 So it's unfortunate that this time frame kind of allowed individuals to potentially do 686 00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:52.519 something like, you know, just put them into a closet, like it 687 00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:55.519 is just so awful to think about if that was the case, if that 688 00:48:55.679 --> 00:49:00.639 did actually transpire the way that the rumors said that it did. To think 689 00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:07.280 that poor Jack was in that closet all alone and dying while these people tried 690 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:09.519 to scramble to come up with a scenario to be able to cover their own 691 00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:14.559 butts, and to think that, like zero Wect had said that lately, 692 00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:16.159 if you would have got to a hospital, he could have been saved. 693 00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:22.039 Yeah, that's the most heartbreaking part is that his death could have been prevented, 694 00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:24.679 because Wax seems to think that he died only like a couple hours before 695 00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:29.679 his body was found. Now it sounds like during the first few days that 696 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.639 Jack was missing, his family had little success at convincing the police to form 697 00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:37.800 a search of the university campus, which is why they organized their own search 698 00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:40.719 effort on the evening of October the twenty first. I know that members of 699 00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:45.000 Sigtao participated in this search, and if they were complicit in what happened to 700 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.960 Jack, perhaps that's why they came up with the idea of planting his body 701 00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.519 at the bottom of the stairwell. I mean, if Jack died in their 702 00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:57.039 care and they disposed of his body in a manner to ensure he would never 703 00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:00.519 be found, Jack would remain a missing person and the investigation would not end. 704 00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:05.679 But by making his death look like an accidental fall, they probably hope 705 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:08.880 that the investigation would be closed immediately, and for the first few years this 706 00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:15.920 strategy actually worked. Even though the investigation was eventually reopened and this story received 707 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:20.079 exposure on national television, no one has ever been made to answer for their 708 00:50:20.119 --> 00:50:23.159 alleged role. In Jack's death. And wasn't it a couple of attorney members 709 00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:28.440 that found his body as well? I think so, yeah, because they 710 00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:31.039 decided to volunteer to participate in the search effort. And I think they were 711 00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:35.920 the ones who looked in that stairwell. So it could be just a convenient 712 00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:37.639 thing where it's like, this is a place no one has looked before, 713 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:42.760 and let's find his body to make ourselves look less suspicious, you know. 714 00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:46.679 I mean, it's not unheard of. This is why Jean Ramsey's dad was 715 00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:51.760 such a suspective. First was because after everyone was looking for this little girl, 716 00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:53.079 as soon as the search starts, he goes straight to her body. 717 00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:59.039 Right, could be absolute coincidence that these boys were the ones who find the 718 00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:02.360 body, but it's also possible that they either knew he was somewhere on campus 719 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:07.719 or they knew exactly where he was. It's hard to say, and I'm 720 00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:09.480 not saying that they did have something to do with it, but it definitely 721 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:14.079 does raise eyebrows and make you a little suspicious of the two or three that 722 00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:19.559 found him. Look, Robin and I don't believe that Jack was murdered intentionally, 723 00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:22.880 and perhaps given the information. Ashley. You may tend to agree, 724 00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:27.840 and I can accept that he was the fatal victim of a freak accident, 725 00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:31.719 but by covering up the truth about what happened, the responsible parties caused a 726 00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:37.079 lot of undo pain for Jack's family. His stepbrother John said it was particularly 727 00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:43.360 hurtful when they attended Jack's funeral and the priest decided to take the opportunity to 728 00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:46.920 make the sermon about the dangers of underage drinking. So in a way, 729 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:51.800 it was a validation for the family to learn that this was not actually the 730 00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:55.239 cause of Jack's death and he did not suffer the indignity of hisphyxiating on his 731 00:51:55.280 --> 00:52:00.400 own vomit. Well, it's tempting to go with Ockham's razor and believe that 732 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.599 Jack could have died as the result of injuries sustained from an accidental fall down 733 00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:07.639 those stairs. I think there are just too many troubling discrepancies to believe this 734 00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:13.039 is what happened. After more than thirty five years, the statute of limitations 735 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.440 for whatever crimes took place here may have expired. Unless this was a deliberate 736 00:52:16.519 --> 00:52:21.199 murder, I'm not sure any charges would be filed, but Jack's loved ones 737 00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:24.079 still deserves some answers, So if you happen to have any information about the 738 00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:30.199 death of Jack Davis Junior, please contact the appropriate authorities. Jules Ashley any 739 00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:35.719 final thoughts. It's heartbreaking. I mean you Nato when you said that this. 740 00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:39.119 Like I said earlier, this could be anybody. It could have been 741 00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:43.639 me in college. I made a lot of silly mistakes. I trusted a 742 00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:46.880 lot of people that I probably shouldn't have and it could have been any of 743 00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:51.920 our children as well, you know, going and trusting people and having fun 744 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:54.679 and getting caught up in things that maybe you shouldn't have been caught up in. 745 00:52:55.039 --> 00:53:00.960 So it's scary for me when I think of this because as a parent, 746 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:05.840 right I would want to know the details. I just want to know 747 00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.199 what happened. And I do think I'm very much with you guys. I 748 00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:13.000 do believe this is a group of kids who realize something went too far. 749 00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:16.199 He drank too much, he hit his head, and at the end of 750 00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:21.199 the day they were trying to help him. It could also be a case 751 00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:24.719 where everyone involved thought someone else is going to step forward and be that person 752 00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:30.119 that tells everyone so I don't have to and as everyone graduates and moves forward 753 00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:34.199 and moves on with their life. It's permission to forget what happened because someone 754 00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:39.360 else will eventually tell everybody what happened. But that family deserved answers. They 755 00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:43.679 deserve someone to say, hey, we messed up, right, and have 756 00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:49.360 people care more about their friends around them than themselves in their own futures. 757 00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:52.320 That's pretty rare. I think. I bet a lot of people are willing 758 00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:55.679 to turn a blind eye and say, ah, I'm not willing to put 759 00:53:55.719 --> 00:53:59.639 myself out there. He's dead. Nothing's going to change that. Why would 760 00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:04.119 I risk getting in trouble. But that doesn't make the grief and the loss 761 00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:08.639 of Jack any less pitiful for this family. And to think about this pastor 762 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:13.800 who's standing up there making a sermon about underage drinking. I mean, it's 763 00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:16.519 not the time. At his funeral, his parents are well aware. They've 764 00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:20.760 been well aware before that their son made choices they didn't agree with, that, 765 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:24.960 they were frustrated with that every kid most kids make when they go to 766 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:30.519 college. His death is not negated or minimized because he was drinking, right, 767 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:34.599 It was not the place to bring that to the forefront. It really 768 00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:38.280 almost disrespected Jack's legacy that he was way more than the drinks he consumed that 769 00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:43.480 night. And so oh, I'm just sad. I'm sad for the family. 770 00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:45.960 I am glad that they were listened to. I think it came too 771 00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:51.559 late. But if anybody has answers, Robin, you nailed it. The 772 00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:54.920 time's passed, right, You're not getting charged with first degree murder when you 773 00:54:55.119 --> 00:55:00.920 probably were helping a friend and didn't do the right thing. But man, 774 00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:04.480 if the family could know, think about John, his stepbrother, who said, 775 00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:07.360 like, we needed to know. I just wanted to know what happened. 776 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:10.639 I just wish they have answers. If anyone knows do the right thing. 777 00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:14.079 No one else has stepped up. They're not going to fill in the 778 00:55:14.119 --> 00:55:17.079 blanks for you. So do the right thing and tell the truth. John 779 00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:22.239 really is a hero in this story in pushing the investigation to go that extra 780 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:27.800 step and getting Cyri Wect involved, and that really shot a light on all 781 00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:31.400 of this evidence where it was just a shoddy investigation, shoddy work by the 782 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:37.519 coroner and the medical investigators, just shoddy work overall, in my opinion, 783 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.480 and I think it was a lot of buck covering. Later on and ridiculous 784 00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:44.960 explanations, and it was Cyril Wet who really, you know, blew a 785 00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:50.639 hole in their ridiculous theories about red blood cells and white cells continuing to you 786 00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:55.599 metabolize things after death. It's shocking, it really really is. And it's 787 00:55:55.599 --> 00:56:00.880 also shocking that the campus police were given jurisdiction in this case. I do 788 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:04.880 think that the rumors, you know, when there's this much smoke about the 789 00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.920 fraternity being involved, I think it is likely that there was something like that 790 00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:12.880 Donkey Kong game, and they just panicked and hid the body, and it 791 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:15.719 was just a bunch of dumb kids, you know, not really thinking about 792 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:21.960 anything more than themselves, which kids are prone to do, and so a 793 00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:25.119 bunch of them got together and potentially made this pact of silence. And what 794 00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:30.000 is shocking is that nobody has come forward. Nobody's felt like enough guilt to 795 00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:34.480 unburden themselves and to say, hey, like, I don't want to go 796 00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:37.639 on the record officially, but I would like to let the family know that 797 00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:40.639 this is what happened, because if that is the case, and if there 798 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:45.079 are multiple parties involved, I don't personally believe that it was like a violent 799 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:51.239 attack. I think it was an accident, but their actions or their inaction 800 00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:55.159 led to the death of Jack, so I would think that there should be 801 00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:59.559 some guilt. So I'll say the same thing as Actually, if anyone knows 802 00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:02.679 anything, please come forward, because this is a big family who I'm sure 803 00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:08.320 would love to know what happened to their son, to their stepbrother, Jack 804 00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:13.920 Davis Junior. You know, he deserves more than what happened here in this 805 00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:19.039 investigation, and more than what happened with that frigging eulogy that hit me like 806 00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:22.559 a gut punch, and Nash, you summed it up very succinctly and perfectly 807 00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:29.559 basically indicated, and it minimized him by making it all about this don't drink 808 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:34.559 when you're you're underage thing. It wasn't about that. It was about who 809 00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:37.320 he was as a person, and a lot of that gets lost when you 810 00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:40.800 make it about don't drink kids. You know it's bad for you, And 811 00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:44.679 these are the types of things that happened. It was like, you should 812 00:57:44.679 --> 00:57:46.440 not have gone rogue. That was not the right thing to do. His 813 00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:52.320 family deserved better on all fronts. And this case is so heartbreaking and frustrating. 814 00:57:52.679 --> 00:57:55.280 Yeah, this is another case. I talk about these a lot that 815 00:57:55.360 --> 00:57:59.960 haunted me when I first watched it on unsaw. Mystery has been originally aired. 816 00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:04.920 I was always really hot to buy stories about kids who would go out 817 00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:07.519 partying and drinking or hanging out, but then they would go missing or they 818 00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:13.000 would die under unexplained circumstances, and they would present a theory that they were 819 00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:16.480 alive for a couple days and suffered for a while before they finally died. 820 00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:21.000 I mean, we talked about the Kurt Soba case and also the Jeremy Bright 821 00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:23.239 case, which we did on this podcast a few months ago, and also 822 00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:28.480 now Jack Davis Junior, where it seems very unlikely that he died on the 823 00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:30.760 night he was out drinking and we have no idea what happened to him. 824 00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:35.639 But the idea that he could have been being nursed back to health or held 825 00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.840 in a closet for several days and suffering badly before he died, and then 826 00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:43.239 someone decided to plant his body in the stairwell to make it look like an 827 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:47.000 accident is a pretty heartbreaking scenario. And like this is, like we said, 828 00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:51.880 this was probably not an intentional murderer. Whatever happened to him was probably 829 00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:54.559 just an accident, but there seems to be a code of silence surrounding this 830 00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:58.400 whole thing, and they probably thought they had gotten away with it. They 831 00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:01.800 probably were breathing a sigh of or when the original medical examiners thought that this 832 00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:06.480 was just an accident, but I'm sure they were trembling once Cyril Wet was 833 00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:09.239 brought into the occasion, because he's probably the most famous person in his field, 834 00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:13.840 and he pretty much said no, this was not just a simple accidental 835 00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:17.639 death via intoxication. Something had to be happened here and someone had to plant 836 00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:22.480 Jack's body in that stairwell. But sadly, this did not break the case 837 00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:25.840 wide open, as no one really came forward with any hard information to help 838 00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:30.719 figure out what happened. We had a few anonymous tips and a few people 839 00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:35.599 who gave bits and pieces and rumors in hearsay, but nothing actionable that should 840 00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:38.000 had any light. I want to actually happened to Jack, and I do 841 00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:42.079 believe there were a couple of people involved who have managed to keep their mouth 842 00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:45.639 shut, and even though they will not be criminally charged after all these years, 843 00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:50.119 they probably do not want to take their legacynes like they may be having 844 00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:53.039 like bright futures. They may be living nice lives right now, but because 845 00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:57.639 Jack was deprived of having an opportunity for life that like this, then they 846 00:59:57.679 --> 01:00:01.400 deserved to come forward and give his family some answers and some closure because this 847 01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:06.320 is such a heartbreaking case. Robin, do you want to tell us a 848 01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:09.360 little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon 849 01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:14.960 has been around for three years now, and we offer the standard bonus features 850 01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:19.800 like early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers and sign thank 851 01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:22.239 you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon. If you join 852 01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:28.480 our five dollar tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in which 853 01:00:28.519 --> 01:00:32.199 I talk about cases which are not featured on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, 854 01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:37.039 so they're exclusive to Patreon, and if you join our highest tier tier 855 01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:39.960 three, the ten dollar tier. One of the features we offer is a 856 01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:45.159 audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries, where you can download an 857 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:51.360 audio file and then boot up the original UNSAWD Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or 858 01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:54.719 YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background, where I 859 01:00:54.800 --> 01:01:00.880 just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, 860 01:01:00.920 --> 01:01:04.920 the very first episode that I did a commentary track over was the episode 861 01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:07.880 featuring this case. So if you want to download a commentary track in which 862 01:01:07.880 --> 01:01:13.760 I make more smartass remarks about Jewel Kaylor than be sure to join Tier three. 863 01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:15.119 So I want to let you know a little bit about the Jewels and 864 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:20.400 Ashley Patreon, so there's early ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. 865 01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.079 We've got our Path Went Chili minis, which are always over an hour, 866 01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:27.039 so they're not very many, but they're just too short to turn into a 867 01:01:27.079 --> 01:01:30.760 series, and we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check out 868 01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:34.320 those. Patreons will link them in the show notes. So I want to 869 01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:37.239 thank you all for listening, and any chance you have to share us on 870 01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:40.119 social media with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciate it. 871 01:01:40.199 --> 01:01:44.599 You can email us at The Path Went Chili at gmail dot com. You 872 01:01:44.599 --> 01:01:47.000 can reach us on Twitter at the Path Went. So until next time, 873 01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:52.360 be sure to bundle up because cold trails and chili pass Call for warm clothing. 874 01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:54.760 Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy