WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.839 I'm Andy Nelson and I'm Pete Wright. We're the team behind the True Story 2 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:10.560 FM Entertainment podcast Network. The entertainment industry is changing rapidly with the rise of 3 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:16.640 streaming and AI, but unfair contracts remain, failing to properly compensate the talent 4 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:21.079 that brings stories to life. The WGA strike led to important gains for writers. 5 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:25.160 Now sag After actors have been striking for over one hundred days against the 6 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:30.760 stubborn AMPTP. We fully support sag AFTER members fighting for fair pay and residuals, 7 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:36.439 especially for streaming projects. The studios continue to profit immensely from actors work, 8 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:41.520 it's reasonable for actors to share in that success. The AMPTP must negotiate 9 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:46.119 in good faith. I'm Ray Delancey. I'm Mandy Babian, I'm Keenan Diaz. 10 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:49.960 I'm Justin jj Yeker. I'm Christy Lenz. I'm Steve Sarmento. This 11 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:54.159 is Kyle Wilson. I'm Matthew Fox. I'm Nate mccorter, I'm mister Clark. 12 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.759 I'm Nathan Blackwell, I'm Mandy Kaplan. I'm Tommy Mets. The Third 13 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:02.320 Our Network stands in solidarity with the striking members of SAG after as they fight 14 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:07.760 for the contracts they deserve. The entertainment industry depends on their talent and dedication. 15 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:14.680 It's time for change. Hello everyone, I want to give you a 16 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:19.159 quick update on where things are with Superhero Ethics. I'm coming back from my 17 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:23.319 illnesses and we will be coming back off of hiatus as of the beginning of 18 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.760 December. We already have a new episode recorded for you, and I'm in 19 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:30.040 the process of recording some more. We're going to do our best to keep 20 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:34.359 honoring the strike. There's some other content that we were looking at. We 21 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:37.840 also may start going to in every other week format for a little while. 22 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.480 Superhero Ethics just into the Strike ends with a lot of other things going on, 23 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:46.560 but we will be bringing you new content soon. In the meantime, 24 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.519 the next couple weeks, we're going to bring up bring back some greatest hits, 25 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:52.640 some episodes from the past. A lot of these are from a long 26 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:57.640 time ago. Hopefully many of you subscribed since then and so haven't heard of 27 00:01:57.640 --> 00:01:59.799 these before. If you have, maybe you've forgotten you want to hear them 28 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:02.640 again, or if not, scroll right along. Just stay subscribed. We'll 29 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:07.840 have new content for you coming up quite soon. Please also remember the best 30 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:12.960 way to support everything we're doing is to join the membership program five dollars a 31 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:17.439 month or I think it's fifty five dollars a year. You get ad free 32 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:21.759 content, you get bonus content, not in these older episodes, but in 33 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:23.759 the new episodes that are coming out. It was a lot of the newer 34 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.120 episodes that I recorded, and you just it's a great way to help support 35 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:29.840 what we're trying to do here. There's a lot of work that goes into 36 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:31.000 this. I'm trying to make sure I have enough time to do it, 37 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:35.039 and you know, it costs money, it costs effort, and just that 38 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:38.360 five bucks a month can do so much to help us. Know that you 39 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:40.000 care about the podcast, that you support it, you want to keep seeing 40 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:44.319 more of it. Star Wars Uiverus podcast will also be coming back. I'll 41 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:46.280 have that announcement on an episode there, but for now, I hope you 42 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:51.479 enjoy this older episode and please stick around as a member. Please stick around 43 00:02:51.520 --> 00:03:01.080 as a subscriber, and we'll talk to you soon. Hello everyone, and 44 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:07.039 welcome to the Superhero Ethics Podcast. I am Jacob Maleicheach. I'm one of 45 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:09.719 your hosts. Joining me as always is Matthew West Fox, another of our 46 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:14.319 hosts, Matthew, how you doing, Not too bad? Not too bad. 47 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:16.879 I just got engaged this week, so I've had a very active week, 48 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:21.879 and I get to have a podcast this week where I will say very 49 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.759 little, So it's kind of perfect. Yeah, that's going to be a 50 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:28.800 rare thing. One of these times we'll have a podcast where I don't talk 51 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:36.199 very much. Maybe ever. But today we've got two very special guests on. 52 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:42.560 I'm very excited to have this conversation because they're really the reason why I 53 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.680 decided to talk about this sort of thing at all. And it's a little 54 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:49.439 bit of a it may seem a little bit of a departure from what we 55 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.560 normally talk about because normally we're talking about superhero stories like things out of comic 56 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:59.120 books, things out of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, talking about Tony Stark, 57 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:05.159 rarely occasionally talking about dared eviln Kingpin right from the Netflix MCUs that nobody ever 58 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:11.919 watches or talks about. But today we're going to talk about wrestling, specifically 59 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:17.920 this creature called professional wrestling, which includes things like the the WWE, but 60 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:25.279 also other other promotions as well other other forms of this. Uh And first 61 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:29.720 I'm going to introduce our guests so people will know who's who's who when the 62 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:31.639 voices come up. And then we're going to talk a little bit about why 63 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:34.279 this is so that people who are all like, why in the world is 64 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:41.000 this superhero podcast talking about wrestling? Uh So, first off, I'd like 65 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.800 to introduce Tim Abbel, good friend of mine. Tim, How's it going 66 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:49.000 going pretty well? Thank you? So, Tim, you're sort of among 67 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.240 my local friends group, our local friends group, right, You're you're kind 68 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:57.399 of the as we've been saying, the patient zero here, the one who 69 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:02.519 who infected everyone else with this with the passion? What got you started watching 70 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:10.000 wrestling and getting into wrestling. So there was one Friday or Saturday night where 71 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.360 I was channel surfing and trying to figure out what was on TV, and 72 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:19.199 I came across a television show where there were people in this wrestling ring. 73 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:25.199 One of them was holding a microphone, had his foot on another man's neck 74 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:28.959 on top of a briefcase, and was yelling bring them back or I'm going 75 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:34.839 to break this man's neck. And I immediately went, Okay, this is 76 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:41.920 very clearly pro wrestling and fake But one of my great loves in fiction is 77 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:47.720 world building and storylines and settings, and I wanted to know how they got 78 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:51.839 to this point and what came to this point and what everyone was talking about. 79 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:57.639 So from that point I sort of dove in looking for Internet places where 80 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:02.720 they would talk about this and sort of just learn everything in this weird, 81 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:08.160 wild world of people yelling that they're going to break a man's neck just in 82 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:13.959 the middle of a crowded arena. Excellent. So, so Addison, how 83 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.279 about you? Where do you come from in this? What's your perspective in 84 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:24.399 history with wrestling? So I've always had a massive spot in my heart for 85 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.839 things that are incredibly over the top. A little bit of that comes from 86 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:34.519 some small background in theater, I think, but that means comic books, 87 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:41.720 action movies, anything where just the amount of melodrama and emotion on display is 88 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:48.040 far outside the bounds of what a normal person would expect to experience. And 89 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:55.879 so Tim found out about that and said you should definitely watch wrestling and invited 90 00:06:55.879 --> 00:07:00.199 me and a couple other friends over and the rest is history. That sounds 91 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:06.439 accurate on all accounts. So from my perspective, I've I think I'm the 92 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:13.040 latest bloomer within within this particular group, though one who got into it last. 93 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.759 But I've I sort of bit hard onto this and so to for for 94 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:23.240 our listeners, why we're talking about wrestling specifically is that while you know, 95 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:26.839 when you're looking at it from the outside, it looks a lot like a 96 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:29.879 soap opera. It has a lot of the same kind of of tropes and 97 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:36.120 trappings of soap opera. It's also very much like comic book superhero stories, 98 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:42.560 with clear heroes, clear villains, storylines surrounding them. You've got plots and 99 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:46.680 schemes, You've got people with agendas, and you've got people who are supposed 100 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:51.040 to be presenting as the right side of things. You know that they're the 101 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.959 good guys, they are doing good guy things. And then you've got guys 102 00:07:54.959 --> 00:08:00.839 who people who are who are being underhanded or sneaky or doing stuff that shouldn't 103 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.319 be allowed and are getting away with it, and you know, so obviously 104 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:09.439 they're they're your villains. And as it turns out, both within the fiction 105 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:16.839 of wrestling itself but also surrounding the the business and surrounding the culture and the 106 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:22.319 fans, there are a lot of ethical considerations to dive into. Uh. 107 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.720 And so as I've been getting more into it, Matthew and I had been 108 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:30.360 talking and thinking, is this is this a topic? And we think it 109 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:37.240 is so from from that perspective, Uh, what are your thoughts on do 110 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:39.120 I get to chime in with my history with wrestling? Yeah? Yeah, 111 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.279 what's your history with wrestling? Well? And it's kind of joke because mine 112 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.000 is probably the I have the least connection to wrestling here, and I'm so 113 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:50.799 I'm going to sort of be the like, uh, the uh, the 114 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.639 new person voice, the voice of the every man here who doesn't have any 115 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.600 idea what you guys are talking about. But but I have an odd story 116 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:03.039 with it because I actually probably have been. I was watching wrestling a long 117 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.759 time ago when I was a kid, back when at least among the people 118 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:11.399 who I knew who were into wrestling. And this is the days of the 119 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:16.360 eighties when it was Hulk Hogan and Superfly, Snook and the Iron Chic and 120 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:22.200 eight million other horaly racist stropes of the sort. They weren't being honest about 121 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:26.000 that, or they were being honest, but like they were not being quite 122 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.919 so clear about the fact that it was obviously fake, and I remember knowing 123 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.919 a lot of people who thought it was real and thought it was a real 124 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:37.759 competition on the same level as the NFL or Major League Baseball. And I 125 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.120 liked it when I was ten, and then, you know, I got 126 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.039 to be a little bit older and I realized it was kind of silly and 127 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:45.600 I lost my taste for it. And I think a big part of what 128 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.120 intrigued me when I came back to it a lot later, mostly because you 129 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:52.879 guys were so into it, is the fact that now it is completely understood 130 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.919 that this is fake or not. When I say fake, I should say 131 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.879 it's fictionalized, That there isn't an actual competition happened where people are unsure who 132 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:03.879 is going to win in the wrestling match. That these are all scripted, 133 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.799 but it's a couple of few pointed out that it's a soap opera playing out. 134 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.799 And I'll say, while I still I've watched maybe three wrestling events over 135 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:18.000 the last twenty years, namely a couple of Royal Rumbles or WrestleMania's with you 136 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:24.200 guys between the conversations you all have been holed at having. And also I 137 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.279 have to be honest watching the TV show Glow, which really did a great 138 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.000 job of exploring the behind the scenes discussions about the heels and the faces and 139 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.679 how you write these stories and how you find the ethical storylines. It really 140 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:39.879 got me excited. And I'll probably be taking more of a back seat than 141 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.320 anyone else in this topic, but hopefully asking some questions because it's one I'm 142 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.759 really excited for us to talk about. And just by knowing a couple of 143 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:52.159 our other friends who are bummed that they can't be on this podcast, I'm 144 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.799 sure this is a topic we're gonna be returning to more than once. So 145 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.080 yeah, so I'm going to go to this. Glow is a great example 146 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.679 too, as someone who is watched that show. It does a very good 147 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:09.919 job of showing the fiction of the storylines, but also the reality of things 148 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:16.080 like injuries and racial tensions and all those sorts of things, right, And 149 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.639 I think it almost goes without saying if you know anything about Glow, But 150 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:26.919 obviously the gender dynamic and how it played out twenty thirty years ago is different 151 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.639 than how it's playing out now, and it continues to evolve. I'm not 152 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:33.200 sure it's in the best place that it can be right now, but I 153 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:39.519 guess hope Spring's eternal is sort of my catchphrase. I mean Eric Ailiff, 154 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:41.399 who was one of the friends, who a fellow judge who really wanted to 155 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:45.200 be on this podcast. He was pointing out to me that we at least 156 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.840 are no longer in the days of the bra and panty matches, so we've 157 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:52.000 made progress. Oh yeah, I have not gone back to watch those. 158 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:54.960 I did not start at that point. I have no desire to go back 159 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:01.240 to it. So sort of getting so like, as we say, we're 160 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:05.600 entering into this with the understanding that at least the stories we're being told sort 161 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:11.799 of in media right are fictional, but they're still like, there's still and 162 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:16.159 I want to make sure this is understood. The athleticism it takes to do 163 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:22.120 the things that these people do is just incredible. And so it's interesting that 164 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.039 we have this sort of performative art form that is so physically taxing and can 165 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:33.919 often still be very dangerous, that is not ostensibly actually competitive at least for 166 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:39.399 what people see in ring, what people see that's like televised or in local 167 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.559 house shows. We'll get more into that, I think when we're talking about 168 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:48.639 the reality like the meta concerns. But for right now, I think the 169 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.639 first thing to talk about, which is the thing that's the closest parallel to 170 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:58.159 superhero stories, are what takes place like within the fiction itself. And this 171 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:03.080 sort of with the understanding that sometimes it's harder to separate problems we're having with 172 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.759 the fiction with problems we have with the people who write the fiction who are 173 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.879 technically outside of the fiction, and blah blah blah, blah blah. But 174 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:15.000 we deal with that with everything else that we talk about on here. I 175 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.240 think, so this is not all that different, And so I guess I'll 176 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.320 throw to Addison this time. What's something that you think about when you think 177 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:28.480 about ethical considerations within the fiction, within the fictional stories of wrestling. So 178 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:37.639 the big thing with talking about the storylines of wrestling is, as Matthew is 179 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:48.720 saying, it goes back to the historical big tropes that all of the wrestling 180 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.960 has to rely on in order to tell the kinds of stories that it wants 181 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:58.200 to tell with no information other than this guy's punching this guy in the face, 182 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:01.600 and you're supposed to root for this one even though he's doing the punching 183 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:09.960 right now. And so when I am thinking about the ethical considerations of wrestling 184 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:18.360 storylines, the things that jump to mind for me are typically the big things 185 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:26.000 that move storylines between the matches, the promos that wrestlers use to threaten other 186 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:33.559 wrestlers or threaten the audience or build themselves up, and the content of those 187 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:45.759 promos tends to be the most fraught place for those tropes, turning into stereotypes 188 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:56.600 or worse, which is never great. A recent example of this was when 189 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:05.120 Jinder Mahal was the ww champion a couple of years ago. He had a 190 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:11.879 big challenger in Shinsky Nakamura, who is a Japanese wrestler, and Jina Mahal 191 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:18.120 had several promos over the course of one night that were making fun of Shinsky's 192 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:26.000 slanty eyes and things, which is didn't go over well with the live audience, 193 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:30.440 didn't go over well with the internet audience, and that particular angle was 194 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:37.320 not broached again over the course of that storyline, but it was very troublesome 195 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:45.200 to hear at the time. Absolutely goodness, that's unfortunately not all that surprising 196 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:52.360 to hear because one of the things that he's always jarring to me is that 197 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:56.120 it seems like there's this idea that as soon as they've identified somebody as a 198 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.080 bad guy, sometimes that seems to indicate to them, oh, this person's 199 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.679 a heel, so we can have them say whatever problematic garbage we want and 200 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:08.399 it's okay because they're supposed to be the bad guy. Do you guys get 201 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:15.120 that same feeling that that's like part of the conceit. There's definitely a line 202 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:21.120 there. Acceptability of insults is the term that I really want to use there. 203 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:29.799 There are definitely places where heals the bad guys in this case will go. 204 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:36.039 That would be crossing a line if you're just talking to your friends or 205 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:41.399 giving a speech in front of a crowd at a press conference or a political 206 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:47.399 rally or something like that, Like the line is much further in that case, 207 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:53.120 but there are still lines that you don't want to cross because everybody knows 208 00:16:53.159 --> 00:17:00.159 that it's fictional. This wasn't exactly a promo, but there was some There 209 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:07.759 was a match a few months ago where there was a double amputee wrestler. 210 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.039 He had two amputated legs, and one of the other wrestlers in the ring 211 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:21.319 at the time repeatedly called him Lieutenant Dan during the match and trying to get 212 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:25.200 heat, trying to get the crowd to boo him, But there are still 213 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:30.319 lines that make people uncomfortable, even if they're supposed to be booing. That 214 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:37.480 concept of heat is something that's I think important to bring up here, especially 215 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:44.559 for the listeners who aren't super into wrestling. Heat is when the audience is 216 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:52.920 reacting to what you're doing in any way, and there's positive heat from being 217 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:59.920 very good and wanting people to root for you, and there's negative heat for 218 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:07.400 being very evil and having people boo you. And it's fairly common to try 219 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:14.640 to get that heat cheaply by making fun of the local sports team or making 220 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.400 fun of your opponent in some way that is, you know, like this 221 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:26.480 not an acceptable target in the modern culture, right like, kind of like 222 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:33.000 the making fun of Shinsky Nakamuras slanty eyes, right Like. I think that 223 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:36.920 the intent was to try to get some cheap heat for for gendermer hall, 224 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:41.000 but just because it's wrong, for like, because it's wrong for somebody to 225 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.799 say, yeah, you're probably going to get a big reaction, but that 226 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:51.519 doesn't mean that it I guess the the cost isn't always worth it. Right, 227 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.519 In a lot of ways, what what they end up doing is pervading 228 00:18:55.559 --> 00:19:02.680 some of these these toxic or problematic ideas in our culture that these things are 229 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:07.200 ever acceptable to say, like in jest for example. Right. And it's 230 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:08.880 interesting because I think that's a problem that comes up in a lot of other 231 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:15.000 spaces. A long long time ago on this podcast, we did an episode 232 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.359 actually on the ethics of live action role playing, and there was a time 233 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:22.960 where one of those problematic things that would happen in in that kind of live 234 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.640 action role playing, which for those who don't know, it's more where it's 235 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:29.119 like a role playing game like Dungeons and Dragons, but it's much more of 236 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:33.240 like there's much larger groups of people and everyone is standing up and wearing costumes. 237 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:36.839 Although there could be a problem even in just you know, five people 238 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:40.440 playing D and D around a table, where someone would would have the attitude 239 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.480 of, oh, well, my character is this terrible racist and so I'm 240 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:48.920 saying terrible racist things in my character. And in that world at least, 241 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.519 it seems there's been a a there's a lot that that attitude is still pervasive, 242 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:53.920 but there's a lot there's been a big move, especially from the game 243 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:59.799 publishers, to really say that's not okay at all. It sounds like within 244 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.640 the WWE world that there's somewhat of a move away from it, but that's 245 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:07.160 still a lot of it exists. Is that you think fairly accurate. That's 246 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:15.759 absolutely accurate. The WWE has made great strides in some directions, and in 247 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:23.839 many other directions, such as the treatment of wrestlers of color, made few 248 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:32.319 strides forward and in more specific ways, steps backwards. There's a wrestling trope, 249 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:36.799 a classic wrestling trope, which is the foreign heel, which tends to 250 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:42.079 devolve from instead of the character being a heel and being a bad guy for 251 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:48.319 the things they're doing, turning them into being a bad guy because they're not 252 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.799 from America, or in the case of a Japanese promotion, because they're not 253 00:20:53.000 --> 00:21:00.799 from Japan. And it's popular, but it's very easy to do and really 254 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:07.960 sort of cheapens the effect of the bad things those characters are doing. Right, 255 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.640 Like for a long time, I mean, Russev's steak is still that 256 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:15.880 he's fourign right, but he was being billed from Russia because we were having 257 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.839 issues with Russia I think is the history. I'm not one hundred percent on 258 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:26.119 that because I wasn't into the product back when that was happening. Before we 259 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.119 get too much further, I just want to make sure, uh people understand. 260 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:36.279 So we're gonna use some terminology like heal like face for anybody not in 261 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:41.079 the know, like that literally translated to heal villain face hero. You can 262 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.640 you can sort of internalize those ideas that way. The face is sort of 263 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:52.240 a shorthand for baby face. Heal is a lot I think more of a 264 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:56.799 straight line for villain. But like heels are the people who are you're supposed 265 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.680 to boo, and faces are people you're supposed to cheer. And the reason 266 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.000 why I wanted to sort of transition uh into talking about that is that there 267 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:10.119 are sometimes where we're given a character that we're supposed to boo, and here's 268 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:12.799 where we can we sort of get like it seems almost a peak behind the 269 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:18.359 curtain where what they're writing. Instead people are like, yeah, you know 270 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.079 that makes sense. They're right, such as the main example I'm thinking of 271 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:32.359 is Daniel Bryan, who I love, who is a vegan right like real 272 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.440 life is a vegan has and also ego conscious, and they sort of had 273 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:44.440 him adopt that as his heel gimmick, yelling at people for buying concession stand 274 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:49.519 hot dogs and stuff like that, And I like it felt to me, 275 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.640 for the for the promotional material I've seen, like the intent was that people 276 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.599 were supposed to be mad at Daniel Brian be like, no, don't any 277 00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:02.400 way, I'm America whatever. And actually I've seen a lot of reaction that's 278 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:07.720 more like, yeah, you know, he's not wrong, we don't hate 279 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.359 him. Well, And that was actually one of the things I was gonna 280 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:17.160 ask is because I know, I know that often on this podcast, Jacob, 281 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:19.079 you and I the villains who you and I are almost most drawn to 282 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:26.359 are the folks like Magneto or Killmonger or some guy in Daredevil who wears a 283 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.000 white suit whose name I can't remember. But but we often talk about how 284 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.000 it's the it's the villains who we think have a point as opposed to the 285 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:38.519 mustache trailers the way you're describing, and it sounds like most WW villains are 286 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:45.839 written much more mustache Charley but but but but but that there are some that 287 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:48.759 are much more like they have a point of view that that someone could believe 288 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:53.759 could could agree with. I mean, like again, I'm still pretty new 289 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:59.200 to it. I've seen far more of the like sort of one note like 290 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:02.920 this is this person Since gimmick type characters, there are some that are more 291 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.960 nuanced or that have more, in this particular case, just something where there's 292 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:14.480 like a nugget of truth behind what they're saying that's not necessarily completely villainous or 293 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:19.559 wrong thinking, right, as opposed to you know, some of the I'm 294 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:26.319 trying to think of an example of a heel who's clearly just doing something bad 295 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:30.119 that is not like problematic, but is definitely like something no one's going to 296 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:34.200 agree with. And for some whatever reason, I guess Samoa Joe is a 297 00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:38.240 good example, right, because he likes to ambush people before they actually have 298 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:45.640 matches and not actually fight the real matches. Samojo also likes to threaten people's 299 00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:51.240 families. Yeah, sure, and that's obviously a problem. But this is 300 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.920 something we see comic book villains do as well, right, Like when somebody 301 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.920 is like, oh, I have found your weakness. You care about this 302 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:02.680 person, so I'm going to threaten them to get to you. Same kind 303 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:07.559 of thing here, right, And sometimes it plays well and sometimes it doesn't. 304 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:15.200 So anyway, not to get too digressive on this, there's a lot 305 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:19.720 more to talk about in terms of the fiction, but anything else on just 306 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:23.240 sort of what these people like, what is acceptable for people to say, 307 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:27.599 and the problems that we have when these characters are being portrayed in this way 308 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:33.319 or saying these types of things in order to get that negative reaction from the 309 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:41.079 crowd. Well, sometimes even with sensitive topics, they're handled well. I 310 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:48.519 remember one storyline a couple of years ago between two women wrestlers, Naya Jackson 311 00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:56.920 Alexa Bliss, who started out as friends and then quote unquote secretly Alexa was 312 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:03.880 recorded in backstage segments insulting Ni and body shaming er because she's she's she used 313 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:06.960 to be a plus sized model and that sort of thing. Just a lot 314 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:12.680 of bullying segments which went on for a while and culminated in Naya beating Alexa 315 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:18.319 for the women's championship at WrestleMania, the biggest show of the year. And 316 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:25.039 that's a topic that there's a lot of sensitivity and people are very sensitive about. 317 00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:30.200 But in this case, both of the performers have personal history with things 318 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:37.160 like eating disorders, or that sort of bullying and body shaming and wanted to 319 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:42.119 tell this storyline in this way to bring attention to that, and I felt 320 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.039 it was handled very well well. And then asto, you is a really 321 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.640 good point that I was thinking about before when you were bringing up things like 322 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:53.400 the anti Asian comments or the Lieutenant Dan comments, which is I think, 323 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:59.559 as you said, the fact that both actors in it are are on board 324 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:03.319 with it and are okay with it doesn't make it okay necessarily, But I 325 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.799 do think is a very important point because I was wondering an extra to me, 326 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.920 I would feel very differently about something like the Lieutenant Dan thing if I 327 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.319 knew that the person who was playing the heel went up to that disabled wrestler 328 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.960 backstage and said, Hey, how do you feel about if like during the 329 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.680 promos I use these you know, I call you Lieutenant Dan or things like 330 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:26.839 that, and I do you guys have an idea how often does that happen? 331 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:29.680 Like do they make sure that the face is on board with the way 332 00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:33.359 that they're gonna get bullied and commented or is it often just as much as 333 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.680 a surprise to them on screen as it is to the audience. Boy, 334 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:44.319 it is really tough to know that. Sometimes I'm not privy to all that 335 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.880 backstage information. But they do review scripts, they do review that sort of 336 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.839 thing. They review their matches together beforehand with each other. So I assume 337 00:27:53.359 --> 00:28:00.079 to some extent it's discussed, but I'm not sure how much. There are 338 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:08.359 some things that some performers will refuse to say. There was a recent segment 339 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:15.759 with then Dean Ambrose, who was a heel, where he was given a 340 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:22.359 script of what he was supposed to say about on hiatus Roman Reigns, who 341 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:30.039 was on hiatus due to a real life leukemia diagnosis, and Dean absolutely refused 342 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:36.079 to say a particular line that was in the script because he was quoted as 343 00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:40.680 saying, it will lose US sponsors if I say this, right. So, 344 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:47.880 there are definitely instances of ensuring there's consent from all performers for certain things, 345 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.359 but not necessarily all the time, right, And if there is going 346 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:57.880 to be so, if there is going to be any kind of informed consent 347 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:03.359 with regard to to anything in a wrestling match, the words are probably the 348 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:10.279 thing that's going to slip your mind the most. Considering the amount of improvisation 349 00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:15.039 and working from bullet points that most promos tend to be composed of. And 350 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:21.039 I'd imagine that there's a direct correlation between how popular of a character you are 351 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.519 with the fans and the amount of power you have to push back like that, 352 00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.839 and that there's probably it's great when characters can say no, I don't 353 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.599 want to do that, but that if you're you know, a new character 354 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.400 who's getting their first big break, you probably have less you know, comfort 355 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:40.519 speaking up like that. Absolutely, that makes sense to me. Obviously I'm 356 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.559 not an insider. I don't know how it works, but from some of 357 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:48.359 some interviews that I that I've listened to, that does seem to be the 358 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.799 case, right, where Like people who are just breaking in the industry have 359 00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:57.640 a lot less agency over you know, being able to draw those lines than 360 00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:03.400 people who are more established and can use their star power. Right, and 361 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.400 this is also an ethical topic, right, people who use their star power 362 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.960 to influence what is promoted, right, what ends up in the final product. 363 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:17.720 And I mean, for a while, there were a lot of wrestlers 364 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:21.240 who had creative control written into their contracts so they could do that sort of 365 00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:26.640 thing. It's definitely something that's been an issue historically yep, absolutely, and 366 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:33.000 so like this plays directly into us talking about ethical things in the fiction, 367 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.920 because when you get right down to it, the stories we get told are 368 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:45.440 told through a combination of the physical action taken by the wrestlers involved in the 369 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.039 stories and by the words they say. And Addison, I think it was 370 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:53.759 you who had said that they get like bullet points and then talk from there, 371 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:57.680 or was it Tim? I'm sorry I don't actually remember who said it. 372 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:07.200 But if there is some degree of improvisation, right, that means that 373 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:14.799 some amount of ownership of those words does go to the talent and the degree 374 00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:22.240 of bullet pointing From what I've also gleaned from interviews because I'm also not a 375 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:29.160 backstage insider, is that it varies not only promotion to promotion, but also 376 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:34.200 wrestler to wrestlers. Some people are either due to their star power or just 377 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:42.319 due to having proven that they're good at improv, are given more or less 378 00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:48.640 fleshed out scripts to work from, and people who are not proven to be 379 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:56.759 able to work a microphone are given a full word for word promo that they're 380 00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:04.119 expected to memorize, right, and I mean from a just a structure perspective 381 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.000 that makes sense, right. You don't want your your show for the evening 382 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:13.759 to go off the rails because somebody who's less comfortable with improvisation, you know, 383 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:16.359 misses a line, or misses the train of thought, or loses themselves 384 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:22.079 or the you know it's doing some of the audience isn't buying into. But 385 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:27.359 it does mean that those people inherently have less agency over what they end up 386 00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:36.160 saying. Right, So anyway, moving on to another it wouldn't be me, 387 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.440 I think on a podcast like this if I didn't at least briefly touch 388 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:45.279 on the fact that basically every conflict that any of the heroes and villains have 389 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:51.160 with each other in wrestling is solved via some form of violence, sometimes very 390 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.200 extreme violence, other times less extreme violence. But it's it's still a fight, 391 00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:59.000 right. The idea in the fiction is that these two people are fighting 392 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:04.359 each other till usually either one person lays down on top of the other person 393 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:08.200 long enough or makes the other person go, well, if I don't do 394 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:12.920 this, I'm gonna lose one of my limbs or my lower back or something. 395 00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:20.680 And talking about submissions, and I've spoken on this podcast in the past 396 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:24.400 about how you know, I'm not always super a fan of all conflicts being 397 00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:30.599 resolved via violence, and yet I really enjoy this, And for me at 398 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:36.240 least, I draw a lot of parallels with with wrestling in Hong Kong action 399 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:44.599 theater things movies like Hero or like The One, or I'm just listening off 400 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:51.200 Jetly movies apparently Fearless, but also like Kung Fu Hustle. Uh. These 401 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:57.680 movies that are the parallels for me are the the physicality of the people involved 402 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:05.480 is part of the story, right, and so like because because of that, 403 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:08.199 the violence is almost inherent in Like you, I don't think you can 404 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:13.480 tell wrestling stories about violence, and that inherently feels like a problem to me, 405 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.519 but it's also something that I enjoy, which is something I wrestle with. 406 00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:22.159 Does anybody else feel that way? Does anybody else feel like a little 407 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:29.800 bit guilty for enjoying this because it's it's being sort of promoted to you as 408 00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:35.440 as violence fictional though it may be. Yeah, And I wonder how much 409 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:42.119 of my enjoyment of that is due to my brain going and knowing that it's 410 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:47.079 fake. Like I don't watch UFC or MMA or boxing or the real sports 411 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:53.599 where it's solved through punching each other in the face really hard. I tend 412 00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:59.360 to look at this a lot like the stunt shows. It's something like Disney 413 00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:07.159 World or un versus Studios, where there's these incredible feats of athleticism and there 414 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:13.440 is also a storyline, and just like there's a lot of violence inherent in 415 00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.360 that sort of thing, and I think my brain ties those two things together 416 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:21.559 more than I realized when I started watching it. That makes a lot of 417 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:28.760 sense. I definitely agree that I would not watch wrestling if it was real. 418 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:35.679 When it comes back for me is as I mentioned at the very top 419 00:35:35.719 --> 00:35:42.880 of this, it's so melodramatic and over the top, and they use the 420 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:52.440 violence to serve sometimes a greater story and sometimes a lesser one. But it's 421 00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:58.760 not violence for the sake of violence. It's violence for a righteous cause, 422 00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:07.199 or violence for revenge or something like that. And having a full, actual 423 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:16.079 story before and after the match where that violence has consequences and was a consequence 424 00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:28.320 of things is an important distinction between wrestling and actual sports. Yeah, absolutely, 425 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.880 because unlike with actual sports where it's only the outcome, it's only the 426 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:37.840 winner and loser that matters, and that's it. There's implications after the fact, 427 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:45.000 in particular a story that culminated at this year's WrestleMania with Kobe Kingston, 428 00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:51.679 where it was basically a story about somebody who's been working, really hard, 429 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.800 working in the industry a long time not being given opportunities. Right, very 430 00:36:54.880 --> 00:37:01.599 classic sort of blue collar hero type story structure. But the opportunities we're talking 431 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:07.719 about a specifically, you know, these in ring physical competitions, and a 432 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:12.239 lot of the storytelling around there was very violent in up to and including him 433 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.039 having to fight like multiple people in sequence on a given night, Right, 434 00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:22.280 But the outcomes of that were always more important. It was about proving that 435 00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:28.000 people saying that he wasn't good enough or that he didn't deserve those opportunities and 436 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.079 that's why he wasn't being given them, were wrong and that was the real 437 00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:35.039 right, That was the story. It wasn't that, oh, he's super 438 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:37.440 strong and so he's going to punch everybody to prove that he's the strongest. 439 00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:43.199 It was he's good at this, and it wasn't just about raw strength, 440 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:47.280 but it was about talent. Yeah, the story the violence is a storyline 441 00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:52.800 beat as opposed to being the whole storyline, right, and especially since some 442 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:58.119 spots look impressive as heck, and actually when you think about how much it 443 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:02.400 would hurt, probably not a lot some but probably not all that much unless 444 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:09.000 you do it wrong, which there's some shooting star presses I have seen that 445 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:13.320 make me go, oh, that moves way more dangerous than I thought, 446 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:16.719 but only the person doing it. So I don't think that I've ever had 447 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:24.480 my eyes open for the entirety of a Jeff Hardy swanton bomb because it's so 448 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:28.480 risky. And that's the other thing, like, and so we can that 449 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:32.400 that's actually a really good launch off point to talk about unless people had more 450 00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:38.920 to talk about in the fiction, we could jump right into talking about sort 451 00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:45.039 of more of the real life concerns because these are these are people obviously who 452 00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:50.920 are doing these as I think most of us have intimated it incredibly impressive and 453 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:57.719 sometimes very dangerous athletic feats for our entertainment. You can draw some parallels to 454 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:02.719 football, though the animal not quite the same, because American football is still 455 00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:09.519 an actual sports competition. But I sort of mentally go even farther back and 456 00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:17.079 think historically back to the Roman colisseum, right, and the violence sport for 457 00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:21.639 the entertainment of others, people putting their bodies at risk. It's not the 458 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:24.199 same because people aren't literally trying to kill each other as far as I know, 459 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:31.119 so better right, but still a lot of concern there. Yeah. 460 00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:39.840 I mean football or any sport is really a good example because to some extent 461 00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:46.800 you can't always fully enjoy it knowing how much risk they're putting their bodies under, 462 00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:52.639 and how horrible injuries can be to witness, and how devastating they can 463 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:59.679 be to someone's life. In some cases, I have watched much less football 464 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:07.880 recently, as like athletes are getting more and more physically impressive, it means 465 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:13.000 the injuries are more and more physically devastating due to speed and power and all 466 00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.480 those sorts of things. And it's really tough to watch knowing that you might 467 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:22.800 see something horrible, which is a problem in wrestling too. There are definitely 468 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:30.719 spots and moves where I have to swallow hard afterwards and am holding my breath 469 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:36.039 to make sure that it goes off without a hitch and that there's no devastating 470 00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.400 injury. Well, And in regard to the NFL, TIM, I think 471 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:43.039 you make a really good point, and I know that in recent years we've 472 00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.559 been talking a lot in football, not just about the sort of momentary like, 473 00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:51.199 oh my god, that hit destroyed that person's leg, they're never going 474 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:53.679 to walk again, which, as you're right, are awful, but also 475 00:40:53.800 --> 00:41:01.079 just the growing understanding that the years of repetitive injuries, especially repetitive head injuries 476 00:41:01.079 --> 00:41:07.719 and concussions we discovered ten fifteen, twenty years later have massive brain damage effects 477 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:13.920 that are causing you know, horrific life altering effects, including a number of 478 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:21.119 suicides and other just really debilitative issues. And at further in the NFL, 479 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:27.440 there has been a real pushback from the NFL against changing the safety rules to 480 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.199 prevent those kind of things, and that's now getting better, but it took 481 00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:34.480 a while. Has there been anything like that in wrestling? Like, have 482 00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:39.320 we been hearing stories about wrestlers from the eighties and nineties who are now suffering 483 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.079 you know, traumatic brain injury or I think that may not be the right 484 00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:50.159 technical term, but from repeating, what is it called CED or there's a 485 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.079 CTE. Yeah, yeah, But do we have stories from wrestlers who are 486 00:41:53.400 --> 00:42:00.639 who are dealing with that ten fifteen years after they retired and has the WWE. 487 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:02.320 I mean, I just as one example off the top of my head, 488 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:08.360 I'm guessing it would be much harder to pull off the storylines if all 489 00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:10.960 the wrestlers were in helmets. But I don't know if anyone's ever pushed for 490 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.840 that, Like, what have those discussions that have happened in the NFL been 491 00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:21.840 playing out in professional wrestling? Yeah, and so unfortunately, there aren't really 492 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:27.719 stories about wrestlers suffering long term effects from concussions fifteen years after they retired, 493 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:35.719 because most wrestlers don't live fifteen years after they've retired due to their repetitive head 494 00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:43.400 injuries. Yeah, it's the lifespan of a professional wrestler, is It's it's 495 00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:50.280 unreal and really sobering when you when you realize, Yeah, I'm sorry, 496 00:42:50.280 --> 00:43:01.880 continue Addison. The conversation around things like concussions and the more dangerous spots has 497 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:08.320 absolutely evolved over the last twenty years or so. If you look back even 498 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:16.000 to the early two thousands, you see the WWE, which is from at 499 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:24.480 least in America, easily the most conservative of the promotions as far as violence 500 00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:35.360 now, which is not a high bar to clear, they would have spots 501 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:45.480 with unprotected chair shots to the head, and they had more matches with like 502 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:53.519 thumbtacks and things and just the even the things that aren't especially dangerous but look 503 00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:59.400 impressive because they make you bleed from the forehead. They've been cutting back on 504 00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:07.239 doing that and making it look more bloodless over the last half a decade or 505 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:17.000 so, and even in the WWE, it's still there's still lots of instances 506 00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:25.280 where things just don't work and it causes a problem. The most recent example 507 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:30.760 that I can think of off the top of my head is the storyline leading 508 00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:39.400 up to WrestleMania this year where Becky Lynch, who is who is currently the 509 00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:49.280 Women's champion, took a bad hit to the face and ended up with a 510 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:55.360 broken nose and a mild concussion from essentially of a light punch that was just 511 00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:02.719 set up a little bit wrong. But heads are fragile, and so I 512 00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:06.840 have to ask at this point, and I it sounds like maybe you partially 513 00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:10.360 answered this question by saying that things have gotten better what you just said about 514 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:15.320 how we don't really know because most of the wrestlers from from that wrestling distinctly 515 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:21.119 shortens people's lifespan. If that was true today, I think I would have 516 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:25.000 trouble. I get My question was going to be, how do you justify 517 00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:30.000 watching it? Then? If it is actually that, you know, horrific 518 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.440 health health health responses, it does sound like from what you're saying, it 519 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:35.800 has gotten better. Is that? Is that? Is that? Am I 520 00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:42.000 understanding there? Yeah, like the wrestlers who are retiring today like Kurt Angle 521 00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:51.000 who recently retired, are considerably more likely to not become statistics in the next 522 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:54.760 five years than wrestlers who retired ten or fifteen years ago. Right, we 523 00:45:54.760 --> 00:46:00.079 we also have I'd be remiss to not mention this. They're more talk about 524 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:06.760 it in the wrestling fandom and professional wrestling community in general. Now in particular, 525 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:12.320 there's a very famous wrestler from from a while ago now, Rob Van 526 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:17.960 Dam RBD, who released a documentary called Headstrong. It was originally supposed to 527 00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:22.719 be a documentary about something else entirely, where he was going around doing some 528 00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:27.000 stand up comedy I want to say, but he was suffering some long term 529 00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:30.800 CTE effects, didn't realize it was trying to just power through it, and 530 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:37.000 the documentary ends up being about him seeing doctors getting the diagnosis, going through 531 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:42.320 all of that being told like his things, like his life expectancy and what's 532 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.320 going to happen with his brain, his thought and his thinking and stuff over 533 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:53.320 time. Is just fantastic thing to have come out, really really really heartbreaking 534 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.119 that it had to happen like in a way where you can see it, 535 00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:01.800 But at least there's visibility, right and thankfully there's some there's some light at 536 00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:07.000 the end of the tunnel. There's some medical research into the effects of the 537 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:14.000 possible use of CB the oil to help actually recuperate damaged brain tissue, which 538 00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:19.360 they didn't realize could be done before. So there's potentially a light at the 539 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.840 end of this. But the most important thing about this is that the community 540 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.559 is talking about it, is aware of it, up to and including there 541 00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:34.480 was a spot on What's John Oliver's show called Last Week Tonight, Yes, 542 00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:39.519 Last Week Tonight with John Oliver where he basically calls out the WWE on the 543 00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:45.559 health concerns for its talent. Right. It was talked about a lot then 544 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:51.239 and there's obviously some people in the business who didn't have the best reaction to 545 00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:55.880 it, but it is being discussed more now than it was back then, 546 00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:00.800 where First of all, our understanding about things like concussions was was poorer. 547 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:06.000 But also, you know, a lot of that stuff would get swept under 548 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.639 because that wasn't good for the brand. Right. That sucks. I don't 549 00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:14.639 like thinking about something like that, but that's probably the reality of the situation. 550 00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:16.920 Right. Well, there was a lot in the old days. There 551 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:22.559 was a lot of suck it up and keep wrestling so you didn't lose your 552 00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:28.679 spot. And these days, wrestlers are more informed and companies are more informed, 553 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:34.920 and there's a lot more focus on safety and making sure that everyone is 554 00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:39.760 recovered and good to go before they keep putting that repetitive strain on their bodies. 555 00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:45.440 Like obviously it's wrestling, it's high impact, it's going to have some 556 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:52.880 damage regardless, But there's been a big push to make sure people are healthier 557 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:58.440 before putting them back in, as opposed to telling them to suck it up, 558 00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:00.159 take a bunch of painkillers and go out and do it again tomorrow, 559 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:05.960 which leads to huge issues down the road. Absolutely, and none of this 560 00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:09.079 actually answers your question, right, how can we keep watching this knowing that 561 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:14.280 this stuff is happening is a completely fair question, and it's something that I 562 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:22.440 pun well certainly intended to wrestle with, like it it's tough, but I 563 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:25.840 guess like these people, so I guess my stance on it is that the 564 00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:30.360 people who are engaged in this, they like they want to do this right, 565 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:35.679 this is and so to what we can do as fans, I think 566 00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:43.199 is make sure that we're supporting the promotions and the endeavors that actually are taking 567 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:49.440 care of their talent and champion for sane right like better health care for these 568 00:49:49.480 --> 00:49:52.599 people, making sure that's part of like their contracts, their deals, making 569 00:49:52.639 --> 00:50:00.960 sure that we are treating things like concussions very seriously and doing what we kind 570 00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.199 of prevent them from happening. Like these are things that I as a fan 571 00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:09.760 can support by some more supporting promotions that are doing something about that, and 572 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:16.920 by challenging promotions that clearly are doing things that look unsafe. That being said, 573 00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:22.119 I'm still consuming aw and they definitely did an unprotected chair shot to the 574 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:29.920 head earlier this year, and that's already given me some consternation and they've said, 575 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:34.639 yeah, that was a mistake since then, like they which I give 576 00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.880 them props for there, like they didn't have to say, yeah, that 577 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:39.159 was a mistake, We're not going to do it again. But they did 578 00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:44.840 well, and we're talking about like the problematic storylines and kind of moving away 579 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:46.320 from the violence question a little bit, we talked a lot about the issues 580 00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:50.199 around wrestlers of color and stuff like that. I'm wonder if you all can 581 00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:52.639 talk to someone about gender, because I know what, like one of the 582 00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:57.239 times when I it seems like every about five or ten years, I kind 583 00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:00.880 of poke my head into wrestling to see what's going on. And one of 584 00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:02.960 the last times I did before talking to you all in the last couple of 585 00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:07.280 years was Background two thousand and two thousand and one, when a lot of 586 00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:10.800 my friends at that time we're talking about it, and I remember watching some 587 00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:17.880 of the women's matches and it was basically softcore pornography and and and my understanding 588 00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:21.159 is that that has gotten a lot better, and no tim you have talked 589 00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:22.639 about that being a lot better. Can you guys talk to someone about that? 590 00:51:22.679 --> 00:51:24.920 I mean, and granted, as four guys were maybe not the best 591 00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:29.199 experts to talk about this, but I still think it's worth noting what how 592 00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:32.400 is gender treated in this in what at least traditionally has been of it seemly 593 00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:36.639 seems like there has been a huge amount of sexism in how women wrestlers were 594 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:43.679 treated. That's that's a big topic. But to start with, several years 595 00:51:43.719 --> 00:51:51.719 ago, the WWE Women's division was called the Diva's Division and the championship belt 596 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:59.639 was a purple sparkly butterfly, which, like obviously has some problems. But 597 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.719 since then, very soon after I started watching, and one of the things 598 00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:10.519 that kept me watching was there was a WrestleMania where they announced that the Diva's 599 00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:16.079 Division was being renamed to the Women's Division and that the women would no longer 600 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:21.360 be called divas. They were just going to be superstars just like the men. 601 00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:25.320 They got a championship belt that was a recolor of the men's championship belt, 602 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:35.079 and they're being treated like legitimate athletes and legitimate competitors, unlike when they 603 00:52:35.079 --> 00:52:42.719 were doing basically softcore pornography and being eye candy for the twenty five to thirty 604 00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:49.480 four year old men watching. And I can at least speak to as a 605 00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:54.280 more recent fan, most of the women's matches that I've watched play out very 606 00:52:54.320 --> 00:53:00.280 similarly to the men's matches In terms of what they're doing. The kind of 607 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:02.599 like a lot of the same moves, a lot of the same physicality. 608 00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:10.360 And I've seen some footage of some matches from an earlier era, and just 609 00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:16.639 the way that the inering action has changed is is at least a step in 610 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:22.719 the right direction in terms of equality and in terms of treating the women talent, 611 00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:25.880 excuse me, the women talent on the roster similar to the men talent 612 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:30.159 on the roster. There's that. That being said, I don't think that 613 00:53:30.280 --> 00:53:36.079 the uh, from from what I've seen, there's still problems, uh with 614 00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:43.519 how women are treated versus men in in the product. I think that's fair 615 00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:47.599 to say. Yes, so it's it's better. It's just like with the 616 00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:52.960 violent thing, it's gotten better. It's gotten to the point where I got 617 00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:57.119 interested and started watching it. And one of the reasons why I was like 618 00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:01.840 not at all touching this was back in the early two thousands. Whenever I 619 00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.800 would see it on television, I would see something like this and go, 620 00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:10.199 oh God, why would I ever be interested in something like this. I 621 00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:15.039 remember that the few women and women matches that I watched back in the day, 622 00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:16.440 hair pulling was sort of like the most traditional move, and it seems 623 00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:21.320 at least like we've moved away from those days. I mean that still is 624 00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:24.719 a thing. It's a real thing in UFC as well, because it is 625 00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:28.760 a viable grit. But there's a difference in how you do it right. 626 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.880 There's sort of the quote cat fight y unquote way of doing it, and 627 00:54:31.960 --> 00:54:36.400 there's the one where you're using it to move their head around, right, 628 00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:44.880 And so just again changing the physical representative physical presentation matters a lot there also, 629 00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:51.519 Like, honestly, the outfits are a lot less male gayzy in some 630 00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:58.559 cases, not all cases, but you and in some of those cases it's 631 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:04.800 character in the outfit to intentionally be that way too, right, Lacy Evans 632 00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:07.159 is who I was thinking of when I was saying in most cases while like 633 00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:13.880 looking up into my brain to get my thoughts. So yeah, it's it's 634 00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:21.039 treated as a deliberate character choice rather than being the default. Because Becky Lynch 635 00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:27.360 comes out into the ring these days in sort of a looking like a negative 636 00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:32.760 version of the jumpsuit from Kill Bill that Uma Thurman wore, right, because 637 00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:38.599 it's it's yellow and black rather than black on yellow and looks rad and there's 638 00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:45.000 nothing like inherently, at least from where I'm sitting, it doesn't seem like 639 00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:49.559 there's anything that's inherently like designed, designed, quote unquote for the male gaze. 640 00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:52.119 Right, And again, all of this is to say there's still plenty 641 00:55:52.119 --> 00:56:00.679 of social problems with gender and with representation in in wrestling, particularly women of 642 00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:07.119 color, although that's getting better as well, but it's a very slow progression. 643 00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:10.400 Right. It seems like wrestling is still a couple of steps behind our 644 00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:15.840 current, at least progressive side of our culture. I think that's fair to 645 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:22.880 say as well. But we do have superstars like Naomi, superstars like Amber 646 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:28.559 Moon who I can think of, who are women of color who are legitimate 647 00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:31.480 talent on the roster, and while I might not think they're being utilized to 648 00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:36.480 their fullest, they're not treated like jokes as far as I can tell. 649 00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:39.639 And I know we're bouncing around here a little bit, but I know that 650 00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:44.039 you guys had brought up kind of related to this. You guys want to 651 00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:49.679 talk to someone about the intergender matches and sort of how that's being addressed since 652 00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:53.760 is something that Addison and I have talked about a fair amount, and Tim 653 00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:57.760 and I have talked about a fair amount, and it's there's a lot of 654 00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:04.079 humming and hawing currently at least among us about inter gender wrestling because it does 655 00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:07.360 seem like, right, if these are violence people doing violence to each other 656 00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:13.920 because they're superheroes fighting other superheroes, right, that gender shouldn't play into it. 657 00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:24.719 But there's there's a strong counter argument right to that. I think Addison, 658 00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:30.840 can you speak to this a bit because you put it in too pretty 659 00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:35.480 good words before about like what the sponsors are willing to tolerate, but also 660 00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:43.960 like, like you said, there's two sides to this. The k fabe, 661 00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:52.400 which is the broader fiction of the universe, is that wrestling is actually 662 00:57:52.440 --> 00:58:01.119 a sporting event, and it would be very unusual and contraver if you had 663 00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:07.559 women competing against men in this kind of sport, uh, in real life. 664 00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:20.000 And so there's uh, the concern about that perception of violence of from 665 00:58:20.039 --> 00:58:25.280 men against women in the in the universe where you're pretending that you don't know 666 00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:30.880 that this is fiction. But then on the other side, because it is 667 00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:38.920 fiction, Uh, there is the angle where it's completely reasonable in any action 668 00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:47.239 movie to have ah, say, Vanessa Kirby and the Rock have a fistfight 669 00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:52.760 in fast and furious. Absolutely, in fact, you know those are fun 670 00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:58.920 scenes, right, But in part of this, like, right, that's 671 00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:07.000 that's the point I was ineffectively attempting to articulate, right that the issue seems 672 00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:10.280 to be, or the issue that the promotion of, at least that WWE 673 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:16.480 seems to be having, is that there's a way, because of the conceit 674 00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:23.719 of the fiction, a intergender match is going is going to have some quantity 675 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:29.440 of a man doing violence to a woman, and within our culture right now, 676 00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:35.039 there's problems with that, right, and that has to do with some 677 00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:38.719 historical stuff and has to do with some very real problems that have been pervasive 678 00:59:38.760 --> 00:59:45.119 in our culture for a long time. And so because of that, they're 679 00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:47.639 sort of straight straight away from that. Now. Interestingly, there have been 680 00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:54.760 some somewhat more recent examples of intergender wrestling, but usually it's the women doing 681 00:59:54.840 --> 01:00:00.159 violence to the men and the men not doing much of anything too. The 682 01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:04.760 women in turn sort of as a I, you know, putting their hands 683 01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:07.679 up, I can't do this type thing, which has its own kind of 684 01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:13.000 social problems, right, because that can you can see that as a well, 685 01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:15.079 we don't want to show men doing violence to women. You could also 686 01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:21.320 see that as that uh, incredibly archaic idea that, oh, women are 687 01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:25.000 too fragile for for men to physically interact with, and so you can't you 688 01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:28.559 can't do that. There's no way they'd be able to take a hit from 689 01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:34.760 a man kind of thing, which is dumb and gross stupid. But right, 690 01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:37.880 you've got those two things, one of which is problematic and one of 691 01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:44.400 which you can at least understand. The the fundamental idea behind why they don't 692 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:47.679 want to do it or why they're cautious about it. There's an oft discussed 693 01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:54.960 reason I see floating around about the reason why promoters or companies don't want to 694 01:00:55.000 --> 01:01:02.440 do intergender wrestling is they feel it is too close to domestic violence, which, 695 01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:08.599 like is reasonable and seems fine on the surface, and then if you 696 01:01:08.639 --> 01:01:15.480 dig a little more, you realize things like, not all relationships are a 697 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:20.360 man and a woman, and not all domestic violence is man on woman and 698 01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:27.000 or physical at all, and it trivializes the experiences of things like men in 699 01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:35.639 gay relationships who experience domestic violence or other similar situations. So while it's a 700 01:01:35.679 --> 01:01:44.079 reasonable thought on the surface, it it is just very trivial and doesn't really 701 01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:51.280 fully answer the problem. And this does seem like one more area where the 702 01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:54.760 questions that are coming up ian wrestling really mirror are the questions that are coming 703 01:01:54.840 --> 01:01:58.519 up in a lot of the other kind of media we talk about. I 704 01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:02.159 mean, you just mentioned scenes where the rock and a woman actor can get 705 01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:07.280 into a fight on screen, and it's okay that, at least I've never 706 01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:09.079 done like a formal study, but certainly from everything I've seen and read, 707 01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:14.039 that's a pretty rare that's a pretty recent development. You know, ten years 708 01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:19.320 ago, if there was a badass woman villain who had to be taken down, 709 01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:23.119 you can almost guarantee that the hero would have a badass woman's sidekick, 710 01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:27.880 and then at the final fight, the guy would be fighting the guy villain 711 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:30.599 and the woman would be fighting the woman villain. So so it's interesting to 712 01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:35.400 me how many of the discussions we're having are really kind of similar to the 713 01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:39.760 same discussions happening about these similar questions in comic books, in video games, 714 01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:45.320 in superhero stuff, in science fiction, et cetera. Because, as it 715 01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:50.920 turns out, it's it's it's cultural right, and as this is this this 716 01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:57.079 fiction is also a part of our culture, and it sells itself to the 717 01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:00.559 populace at large. And so if they don't think the populace at large is 718 01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:06.440 ready to accept that, they're not incentive to sell it. And Tim, 719 01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:09.400 I just wanted to say, excellent point, and I'm really glad that you 720 01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:16.199 brought it up, because it's easy to sort of live within your own limited 721 01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:22.719 experience and not think about the fact that those sort of assertions only pass like 722 01:03:22.760 --> 01:03:30.280 the most rudimentary, quick pass intellectual analysis. It's really important to always analyze 723 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:35.480 things from outside of one's own experience, to think about, well, does 724 01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:38.519 this past the smell test if I remember that people aren't all like me. 725 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:45.119 So thank you very much for bringing that up. So sort of shifting from 726 01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:53.000 so, there's way more social concerns within wrestling that aren't related to gender or 727 01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:59.280 to minorities. There's obviously plenty there, in particular like the fact that, 728 01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:02.960 as we talk earlier, the use of some minorities often as a as foreigner 729 01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:10.199 characters who are almost exclusively villains because they're not American and therefore that means they're 730 01:04:10.239 --> 01:04:15.800 bad or whatever. Like, yeah, that's that still happens sometimes. But 731 01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:23.960 there's also other issues such as where promotions choose to spend their money or take 732 01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:28.440 their money right. And I think we wanted to talk for a little bit 733 01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:32.119 about some of the things that the biggest, the biggest franchise of all of 734 01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:35.679 these, the one we've been talking the most about, the ww has been 735 01:04:35.679 --> 01:04:42.199 doing that because it's also an ethical problem. Yes, so this was one 736 01:04:42.199 --> 01:04:47.480 of the main topics of John Oliver's segment on last week Tonight about WWE. 737 01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:55.920 But it's their shows in Saudi Arabia that are paid for by the Saudi government. 738 01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:02.920 WWE took large amounts of money from the Saudi Arabian government to put on 739 01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:13.719 shows in the capitol and other cities in that country and promote them and talk 740 01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:19.639 about them and in some cases talk about how great and progressive Saudi Arabia is. 741 01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:27.000 And there's a lot to unpack there, in particular, how many, 742 01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:31.280 just ballpark figure, how many women's matches do you think are at the Saudi 743 01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:36.360 Arabia shows? As the person with the least amount of knowledge about this, 744 01:05:36.480 --> 01:05:40.639 Matthew, what do you think? I would be amazed if there was a 745 01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:43.559 single one. My guess is that there is absolutely no women wrestling allowed in 746 01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:47.719 Saudi Arabia. Not only that there are not women allowed in the audience at 747 01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:53.360 these shows. Not only that, but at the first Saudi Arabian show, 748 01:05:54.960 --> 01:06:00.119 some of the female wrestlers came up in the arena on an advertisement, and 749 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:05.000 the Saudi government got very mad about it. So here's a here's a very 750 01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:09.920 clear they're doing a bad thing, and we want to call them out on 751 01:06:09.960 --> 01:06:15.320 it. Right, there's no part of this it is acceptable. They also 752 01:06:15.559 --> 01:06:19.440 used the Saudi Arabia show to sort of, I guess test pilot bringing back 753 01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:27.320 Hull Cogan, a very bad human being that shouldn't be paid talent anymore because 754 01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:33.000 he said some very bad things and has never even attempted to retract. Uh 755 01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:39.039 ugh. So yeah, a lot, a lot of bad to unpack, 756 01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:45.519 and just this one thing particularly, I think it's offensive because of the like 757 01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:49.760 you were saying, Tim about how they're like running these these promotions for the 758 01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:56.360 show, talking about how progressive this this cover this government is right, Like 759 01:06:56.800 --> 01:07:03.679 yeah, like there are We could do an entire podcast on the issues with 760 01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:13.480 WWE's Saudi shows, from the lack of women to the several wrestlers who said 761 01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:19.079 no, I'm not going there by choice, to the at least one who 762 01:07:19.239 --> 01:07:27.000 was banned because he's Syrian of Syrian descent. Jesus, there's I know at 763 01:07:27.079 --> 01:07:31.400 least one person. One host of a wrestling podcast that I listened to, 764 01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:38.199 has boycotted WWE since they started doing their Saudi shows. It was a line 765 01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.840 that she did not want to cross, that she felt was too far, 766 01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:46.159 And I don't blame her for that. I know that I've started watching less 767 01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:53.199 WWE and started watching more of other promotions since that's been a thing, because, 768 01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:59.360 like again, the only real influence we have fans have is our attention, 769 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:04.440 right, our tension, and our money, and so like, other 770 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:10.480 than calling them out on things like this that are a huge problem that need 771 01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:15.559 to be talked about at the forefront as a this is ethically unconscionable, right, 772 01:08:15.239 --> 01:08:19.720 The only other things we have any agency over. The only things we 773 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:23.880 can do to try to make it hurt is to take those things away, 774 01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:28.600 our tension and our money. And you know, when when you enjoy something 775 01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:31.560 like this, it's tough, Matthew. You and I have talked at length 776 01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:38.680 about some other properties we've enjoyed. For example, in our Harry Potter episode 777 01:08:38.840 --> 01:08:44.960 where when something about the creator came about that. We are not at all 778 01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:50.560 happy with how that, you know, influences our enjoyment of the product itself, 779 01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:54.800 of the art in that case. Right, And I see this as 780 01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:59.960 sort of a similar problem where there's a lot going on that I enjoy. 781 01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:03.159 There's a lot going on that actually is like reasonably progressive. We have Kobe 782 01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:08.159 Kingston is currently your champion. Still, Yes, he hasn't dropped the belt 783 01:09:08.239 --> 01:09:12.560 yet, right, still your champion. So we have we have a black 784 01:09:12.600 --> 01:09:17.119 person who's the men's champion on one of the promotions. It's fantastic, uh, 785 01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:24.279 And got that at WrestleMania. Right, We've got the women's rosters at 786 01:09:24.279 --> 01:09:28.840 a point where they're uh, you know, they're the main evented. The 787 01:09:28.880 --> 01:09:31.680 women main invented WrestleMania this year. They were the very last match. Right. 788 01:09:31.880 --> 01:09:35.079 Something that I think historically is that that never happened before. Right, 789 01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:40.079 this is the first never happened before. Right, So there's there's progress being 790 01:09:40.119 --> 01:09:44.199 made. But you know, sometimes it's like you go three steps sport and 791 01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:51.239 some thousands of miles to the east, I guess, and yeah, it's 792 01:09:51.560 --> 01:09:57.840 yeah, so it's it's tough. Uh, And it is a again a 793 01:09:57.880 --> 01:10:03.800 real ethical problem when we're talking about enjoyment of these stories that we have to 794 01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:10.159 consider the real life implications. There's a saying that we have in tim Andized 795 01:10:10.159 --> 01:10:15.479 friend group, which is that Enderwagan is a chicken sandwich, and that is 796 01:10:16.760 --> 01:10:29.359 referring to both the indefensible position of the author of the Enders Game series and 797 01:10:29.640 --> 01:10:39.600 also to the indefensible positions of Chick fil A, and how it's challenging to 798 01:10:39.680 --> 01:10:51.560 support the provably delicious chicken sandwich and very fascinating content of the Enders Game novel 799 01:10:53.439 --> 01:11:00.640 without supporting the creators of them. And wrestling is a absoluteolutely massive chicken sound. 800 01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:08.000 It's so big, yeah, And I appreciate your phrasing it that way, 801 01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:11.239 because I like I am someone who, for example, has I haven't 802 01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:14.159 touched Chick fil A in more than a year and hope to never do so 803 01:11:14.239 --> 01:11:16.159 again. But there's also other ways in which I do spend my money that 804 01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:19.600 I know other people would would disagree with. I certainly stuck around as an 805 01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:25.880 NFL fan for a much longer time than many others, and the way you're 806 01:11:25.880 --> 01:11:29.239 all describing it, to be honest, I think I would have real trouble 807 01:11:29.279 --> 01:11:31.600 spending giving any of my attention to the WWE, given the kind of stuff 808 01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:35.119 you guys are saying. But I also think that that part of the point 809 01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:40.159 wh I was starting with is that we don't live in a there is no 810 01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:43.960 such thing as morally pure consumerism in this economy, Like it's just not possible. 811 01:11:44.039 --> 01:11:48.680 And every just every piece of media we encounter, every everything we decide 812 01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:53.079 to spend our money on or spend our watching time on or any of that, 813 01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:55.920 there's some degree of more compromise. And it sounds like, at least 814 01:11:55.960 --> 01:12:00.000 that each of you, in your own way is sort of asking those times 815 01:12:00.199 --> 01:12:03.039 questions and asking yourselves about what part of this experience will you or will you 816 01:12:03.119 --> 01:12:08.399 not consume and how does that play into other things you will and won't spend 817 01:12:08.399 --> 01:12:12.920 your money on. Yeah, And the struggle especially comes because of how big 818 01:12:13.119 --> 01:12:18.920 WWE is. They often vacuum up independent talent or talent from other promotions because 819 01:12:19.039 --> 01:12:27.319 WWE is quote unquote the big leagues. So there's a line between wanting to 820 01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:31.840 support the people and not wanting to support the company. And it's just a 821 01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:35.960 very tricky balance that I struggle with a lot. Is there such a thing 822 01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:42.119 as a woke wrestling promotion there are. You really have to look on the 823 01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:45.760 independent circuit for the most part there, but there are several indie promotions. 824 01:12:46.760 --> 01:12:53.640 I think one I heard about in the Chicago area is called Rise that focuses 825 01:12:53.760 --> 01:13:01.079 on female wrestlers and queer wrestlers and put on a show for pride called Pride 826 01:13:01.119 --> 01:13:05.880 and Joy that I heard gushing things about from some of my other wrestling podcasts. 827 01:13:08.159 --> 01:13:13.359 I wish I could go watch that stuff. That sounds great, But 828 01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:19.399 generally speaking, it seems like the more, the bigger, the more mainstream 829 01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:26.560 is probably the right word. I guess a promotion gets the more glacial their 830 01:13:27.039 --> 01:13:32.680 response is to social change and social progress. Like the one of the newer 831 01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:36.840 promotions that e W is sort of in a unique position because they're hypothetically still 832 01:13:36.880 --> 01:13:42.000 starting up there on an on ramp, and so they've got some things going 833 01:13:42.079 --> 01:13:46.039 for them. They've got a I don't know if this is an actual first, 834 01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:50.319 but I think it's. Uh. Is Nyla Rose like a first for 835 01:13:50.880 --> 01:13:57.159 transgender wrestler or is that just the first big name that's a transgender wrestler. 836 01:13:58.479 --> 01:14:05.560 I believe she is the first trans wrestler who is getting attention on a stage 837 01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:12.680 as large as this, sure, but I mean it would be wild if 838 01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:17.840 if she was well not but not completely out of the realm of intellectual possibility, 839 01:14:17.920 --> 01:14:24.159 right because we know how these things behind the scenes supposedly act as almost 840 01:14:24.199 --> 01:14:29.800 like a carnival apparently in terms of how how you get your gig right and 841 01:14:29.840 --> 01:14:32.840 how you keep it, And so I would absolutely believe those are some very 842 01:14:32.840 --> 01:14:39.359 backward social ideas that would keep people, you know, legitimate talent out of 843 01:14:39.399 --> 01:14:48.039 the business for backwards old reasons, right but right, so there there's there 844 01:14:48.039 --> 01:14:54.359 are some examples, but like there's there's this danger, right of token ism, 845 01:14:54.640 --> 01:14:58.279 of being like, oh, we've got the one, uh so that 846 01:14:58.520 --> 01:15:02.159 then we're good. And that's not okay either. Right, you got to 847 01:15:02.239 --> 01:15:08.680 treat all potential talent uh equally and not just have right and I'm not saying 848 01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:11.680 that's the case with Nyla Rose. When you when you see the island in 849 01:15:11.680 --> 01:15:18.760 the ring, I like, she's very impressive and is like one of the 850 01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:27.279 Like there's nothing about the presentation of Nyla Rose that treats her any differently than 851 01:15:27.319 --> 01:15:29.760 any of the other women on the roster. And I love that as far 852 01:15:29.800 --> 01:15:31.840 as I can tell. At least more about her size, I think, 853 01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:35.960 and that's just more has to do with her ability to deal damage, much 854 01:15:35.960 --> 01:15:42.880 in the same way that we uh like we see promotional material around Bronze Stroman 855 01:15:42.920 --> 01:15:45.680 who is a very large man, emphasizing the fact that he's a very large 856 01:15:45.720 --> 01:15:53.079 man. Right, But it's still the case that again, these are these 857 01:15:53.119 --> 01:15:59.039 are sort of exceptions and not like it hasn't reached a point where you can 858 01:15:59.079 --> 01:16:04.520 point to I think many, many, many examples of progressivism in these different 859 01:16:04.520 --> 01:16:09.920 promotions, and part of that is that I think a lot of their fan 860 01:16:10.039 --> 01:16:16.279 base doesn't agree necessarily with all of these social ideas, and they're probably paying 861 01:16:16.319 --> 01:16:19.079 at touch to their bottom line. This is all speculation on my part. 862 01:16:20.039 --> 01:16:24.840 I'm not saying it's right. I fundamentally disagree with it, obviously, But 863 01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:30.239 there you have it, and you can also sort of see this in some 864 01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:32.439 of the stories they tell, right. One of the things I had on 865 01:16:32.479 --> 01:16:39.640 our notes here to talk about was a lot of the story beats are still 866 01:16:39.680 --> 01:16:45.199 coming from ideas that are part, at least in my mind, are part 867 01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:49.399 of toxic masculinity. You've got this story. More recently so, Becky Lynch, 868 01:16:49.399 --> 01:16:54.840 who we mentioned earlier and Seth Rollins are in a relationship outside of the 869 01:16:54.880 --> 01:17:00.199 fiction, right, and they've decided to utilize that in the narrative. And 870 01:17:00.319 --> 01:17:03.800 part of the way they've utilized it, they had a position where somebody did 871 01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:10.640 a violence to Becky and Seth Rollins got you know, super angry, violent 872 01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:14.800 upset and railed on the person to you know, a big pop from the 873 01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:21.079 audience. But that that sequence of events is inherently problematic because of where it's 874 01:17:21.159 --> 01:17:25.119 come from in our culture. Am I making sense? Or am I am 875 01:17:25.119 --> 01:17:32.640 I on an island? Here? It is definitely problematic in a vacuum because 876 01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:39.640 they can't breathe, and and the the counterpoint to that is that earlier, 877 01:17:39.640 --> 01:17:47.600 in that same storyline, and prior to that, a violence was done to 878 01:17:47.760 --> 01:17:55.399 Seth, and Becky was the first person to uh uh see red in that 879 01:17:55.479 --> 01:18:00.039 way, right and defend their relationship, right. And I don't know if 880 01:18:00.039 --> 01:18:06.279 that makes it better, but it is definitely it means that when it happens 881 01:18:06.319 --> 01:18:15.199 to Seth, it was even right. Unfortunately, because of the gender dynamic 882 01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:19.439 in our culture right now, it's harder to see them even back to back, 883 01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:24.920 right, It's harder to see them the same way because we don't have 884 01:18:25.279 --> 01:18:30.520 like it hasn't been an an equal thing in our fiction, right. I 885 01:18:30.560 --> 01:18:35.399 don't know of many movies where you see sort of that that quote traditional gender 886 01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:44.840 role unquote. That is a very loaded term, right reversed. But the 887 01:18:44.840 --> 01:18:49.039 the so I agree that it's made I do think it is made better because 888 01:18:49.159 --> 01:18:55.960 they are at least do they're they're presenting it in sort of an equal way, 889 01:18:56.359 --> 01:19:00.600 that both of these people are like this, and that does a little 890 01:19:00.640 --> 01:19:03.800 bit to make it seem less like it's about gender. But you know, 891 01:19:04.600 --> 01:19:10.119 it's still the case where when I saw the first thing, the one thing 892 01:19:10.119 --> 01:19:13.680 you were talking about, I was all like, yeah, Becky, go 893 01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:16.840 get them. And when I saw the other one, I like got a 894 01:19:16.880 --> 01:19:21.720 little squick in my stomach where I was like, hmmm, not sure I'm 895 01:19:21.760 --> 01:19:26.560 into that. Well, and this lets me bring up kind of one more 896 01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:29.319 question that I kind of fortunately have to disappear. So I'll ask one more 897 01:19:29.399 --> 01:19:32.720 kind of nice, small, easily digestible question that you'll just take thirty seconds 898 01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:38.199 on. I'm sure one of the conversations that I hear a lot in regard 899 01:19:38.199 --> 01:19:44.479 to wrestling is that it is meant to be kind of a almost a satire, 900 01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.279 at least today, that it's meant to be almost you know, a 901 01:19:47.359 --> 01:19:54.119 satire of toxic masculinity and of male performance and ness, you know, particularly 902 01:19:54.159 --> 01:19:58.960 in that how much it goes in that it clearly goes so far over the 903 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:04.399 line from manly men doing manly things into straight up homo eroticism and and and 904 01:20:04.520 --> 01:20:09.960 just kind of almost making making fun of that idea of like the jacked guy 905 01:20:11.479 --> 01:20:14.079 and I'm wanting but I also but the flip side being that it seems to 906 01:20:14.079 --> 01:20:17.359 be one of those things where there's a really good irony there, but but 907 01:20:17.439 --> 01:20:20.000 it's really easy to miss it too, And so it becomes that kind of 908 01:20:20.079 --> 01:20:26.479 question of, like, what's your moral stance when you are trying really hard 909 01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:28.720 to make fun of something and doing it in a way that a lot of 910 01:20:28.760 --> 01:20:30.319 people aren't going to get the joke and are going to think you're just one 911 01:20:30.359 --> 01:20:34.359 more time saying yay, men are manly men if they have bigger muscles. 912 01:20:35.079 --> 01:20:40.239 What what what's your guys kind of take on the to what to what extent 913 01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:43.680 the irony here is intended? And whether that that kind of justifies it in 914 01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:49.600 some way. One of the big problems with satire as an art form is 915 01:20:50.439 --> 01:20:56.600 exactly that you need the audience to be in on the joke in order for 916 01:20:56.680 --> 01:21:03.159 it to function as you intended. And so even if there is a contingent 917 01:21:03.399 --> 01:21:13.520 in the writer's room at the WWE that is deliberately writing things as a parody 918 01:21:13.560 --> 01:21:20.000 of toxic masculinity, I don't think that it is fair to say that wrestling 919 01:21:20.039 --> 01:21:28.720 is in any way a satire just because the vast majority of the actual week 920 01:21:28.760 --> 01:21:32.680 to week viewing audience doesn't see it that way. Yeah, I I one 921 01:21:32.760 --> 01:21:40.800 hundred percent agree. If the presentation was such that a majority or even a 922 01:21:40.880 --> 01:21:47.439 significant contingent of the audience were viewing it in that fashion, then it playing 923 01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:51.439 as satire makes more sense, right. This is what people have chosen to 924 01:21:51.439 --> 01:21:56.000 consume it as. And so even if it wasn't intended as a satire, 925 01:21:56.399 --> 01:22:00.399 you could argue, because of the subjectivity of art, that it's sort of 926 01:22:00.479 --> 01:22:04.920 de facto satire. But that's sort of not what's happening, at least right 927 01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:09.279 now for some people. I know some people who do view it that way, 928 01:22:09.840 --> 01:22:13.199 and I'm not saying that their interpretation of the story is at all wrong. 929 01:22:15.119 --> 01:22:21.840 More that I agree with Addison that the the way that the fandom generally 930 01:22:21.880 --> 01:22:26.319 seems to be consuming it is a lot more straight up and down as it's 931 01:22:26.319 --> 01:22:31.159 presented, rather than as like a veneer that is making fun of a lot 932 01:22:31.199 --> 01:22:34.359 of the stuff underneath, because there are part of that is that are deliberate 933 01:22:34.439 --> 01:22:40.520 comedy spots where you are intended to, you know, be in on the 934 01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:45.680 joke, which makes the stuff that's played more serious not really seem like satire 935 01:22:45.720 --> 01:22:50.600 to me again my perspective on it. And with that, I need to 936 01:22:50.600 --> 01:22:55.199 step off. But guys, has been awesome conversation. I've completely wrecked your 937 01:22:55.239 --> 01:22:58.079 outline, but please go on and continue and I'll look forward to hearing the 938 01:22:58.079 --> 01:23:01.479 rest of the conversation later. Absolutely take care of Matthew. We probably only 939 01:23:01.560 --> 01:23:04.920 like I just yeah, we're just going to talk about the cultural expectations thing 940 01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:09.039 I think, and then go out from there. Thank you for your time. 941 01:23:09.119 --> 01:23:13.279 Always nice talking with you. This is sort of a last point in 942 01:23:13.600 --> 01:23:15.039 the outline. It's one I wanted to make sure we talked about because I 943 01:23:15.079 --> 01:23:19.840 think it's a it's sort of a sideways look at this, and it's it's 944 01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:26.399 sort of playing to a point that Tim made earlier or or yeah, where 945 01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:31.399 we're we're looking at things that aren't major, Like not everything is made for 946 01:23:31.560 --> 01:23:38.600 us specifically, and sometimes that means that there are conceits that aren't a part 947 01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:43.439 of our culture, right, and so there are just like we've got a 948 01:23:43.439 --> 01:23:47.840 bunch of different wrestling here in the States, there's also a bunch of wrestling 949 01:23:47.880 --> 01:23:51.840 that happens over in the UK. It's very popular in Japan, it's very 950 01:23:51.880 --> 01:24:00.159 popular in Mexico with Lutra libre wrestling. So sort of springboarding off of that. 951 01:24:00.279 --> 01:24:02.279 Uh, I believe Addison, you were the one who added this point 952 01:24:02.319 --> 01:24:05.359 to here. Is that correct? Yeah? So, so, uh, 953 01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:09.399 what what was your what are your thoughts here? What did you want to 954 01:24:09.560 --> 01:24:14.199 what do you want to bring forward into the discussion about the the idea about 955 01:24:15.079 --> 01:24:19.479 the different cultural expectations and the different lines they might draw. Yeah, so 956 01:24:20.000 --> 01:24:29.279 this was sort of driven by an experience that I've been having with a different 957 01:24:29.520 --> 01:24:33.319 over the top fictional property. Uh. The Yaka is a game series, 958 01:24:33.960 --> 01:24:43.880 uh and uh it is ah a lot like wrestling in that it is very 959 01:24:43.960 --> 01:24:48.239 melodramatic and you solve all of your problems by getting into brawls with various people. 960 01:24:48.840 --> 01:24:58.439 And like wrestling, it has a lot of very troubling h representations of 961 01:24:59.600 --> 01:25:09.439 women and especially the LGBT plus community, which is in my experience with other 962 01:25:09.560 --> 01:25:15.159 Japanese media pretty par for the course, and as a result, Japanese wrestling 963 01:25:15.560 --> 01:25:23.600 is not immune to that. And the subject that I wanted to sort of 964 01:25:23.640 --> 01:25:30.439 approach there is what kind of responsibility do you have as a viewer to contextualize 965 01:25:30.720 --> 01:25:40.359 things when the mainstream that it was intended for is not the stream that you're 966 01:25:40.439 --> 01:25:48.000 viewing it in, right, So thoughts on that, because I have some 967 01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:56.239 right I'm curious Tim and an Addison, as people who have consumed a lot 968 01:25:56.279 --> 01:26:00.239 more Japanese wrestling and lutually break currently than I have, how do you feel 969 01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:08.359 about it? It's because it's a different culture and comes from a different context. 970 01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:13.520 It's really weird to understand how I'm supposed to feel about some of these 971 01:26:13.560 --> 01:26:20.840 things. For instance, in Mexico and Luca Libre, there are two classes 972 01:26:21.119 --> 01:26:26.199 or archetypes of wrestlers that we don't really see in America, and those are 973 01:26:27.680 --> 01:26:33.239 the minis, which are little people wrestlers, and the exoticos, which are 974 01:26:33.319 --> 01:26:41.399 basically drag queens wrestling men dressing up like women and acting like women and wrestling 975 01:26:41.840 --> 01:26:47.119 in a very similar fashion as drag queens performed to my understanding, and the 976 01:26:47.159 --> 01:26:56.720 first times I saw this it felt incredibly offensive because of how much of a 977 01:26:56.840 --> 01:27:02.800 joke they were treated as. But I don't don't have the Mexican context of 978 01:27:02.960 --> 01:27:12.119 knowing where this representation comes from and whether it started out as insulting and has 979 01:27:12.239 --> 01:27:17.840 changed to kind of embracing these differences, or whether like it's still just a 980 01:27:17.960 --> 01:27:26.319 joke right at least the way it was presented in the the one promotion I've 981 01:27:26.359 --> 01:27:30.960 watched in Lucha Underground, the announcer at least was talking like this was like 982 01:27:31.079 --> 01:27:34.840 a really cool thing, and everyone was really excited to have someone who was 983 01:27:34.920 --> 01:27:41.640 part of the exotico culture in their promotion, and the fans were, you 984 01:27:41.680 --> 01:27:46.039 know, cheering and applauding, and it seemed to me to be presented more 985 01:27:46.079 --> 01:27:49.880 as a like this is something they celebrated, rather than this is something that 986 01:27:49.920 --> 01:27:55.399 they liked having around so they could laugh and mock it, but not being 987 01:27:55.439 --> 01:27:58.359 a part of the culture. That's harder for me to say for sure, 988 01:27:58.680 --> 01:28:06.319 right because i'd actually know, and I think that given the rise of the 989 01:28:06.319 --> 01:28:15.680 Internet making it considerably easier to find literal libra and Japanese wrestling. As you 990 01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:20.000 mentioned, Tim and I have been watching a lot of New Japan, probably 991 01:28:20.039 --> 01:28:27.000 the best known Japanese promotion, because they have an online subscription service, the 992 01:28:27.000 --> 01:28:30.199 same as the WWE does. Triple A, which is one of the better 993 01:28:30.279 --> 01:28:36.600 known Mexican promotions, has a Twitch channel where they stream a lot of their 994 01:28:36.600 --> 01:28:44.479 shows, And so it's so much easier now to find these things that you 995 01:28:44.520 --> 01:28:49.000 need to know how to handle them, right than it was even five years 996 01:28:49.039 --> 01:28:55.600 ago. Right, And that's also why it's important to to acknowledge and to 997 01:28:55.680 --> 01:29:02.359 understand some cultural differences that may be jarring to you, right, giving your 998 01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:08.800 given your background. But and you're right, I think the accessibility plays a 999 01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:13.640 lot into why, like first of all, why we can talk about it 1000 01:29:13.680 --> 01:29:17.600 at all, right, but also why we can have these sort of different 1001 01:29:17.640 --> 01:29:26.119 presentations and within each of theirs. I hesitate to call them microcosms, because 1002 01:29:26.239 --> 01:29:32.439 Japan certainly isn't micro and neither is Mexico, but within their own subcultures to 1003 01:29:32.520 --> 01:29:42.079 our global culture, right, having things that having presentations and perceptions that we 1004 01:29:42.159 --> 01:29:46.359 look at a particular way, but they might not, or it might be 1005 01:29:46.439 --> 01:29:51.600 treated completely differently, or it might be okay in their culture and for us 1006 01:29:51.600 --> 01:29:56.720 it's not, or or we say well, why aren't they doing this and 1007 01:29:56.800 --> 01:30:01.079 it's actually going to be unconsortable for them to do it there. So that 1008 01:30:01.199 --> 01:30:05.319 was a whole lot of vague words to say I agree with with the idea, 1009 01:30:06.800 --> 01:30:13.399 and also to sort of you know, when you're watching any of this, 1010 01:30:13.520 --> 01:30:17.840 if if anybody decides to get into this and you're seeing something coming from 1011 01:30:17.840 --> 01:30:24.359 one of those other places, remembering that you know, not everybody is is 1012 01:30:24.399 --> 01:30:30.239 the United States and that there's there. Sometimes the differences are just like seem 1013 01:30:30.479 --> 01:30:34.840 comical or strange. But like I think the minis are great. I love 1014 01:30:34.880 --> 01:30:40.880 it when Mascarita Sagrada shows up on on Lucha Underground, I want him to 1015 01:30:40.880 --> 01:30:45.600 win a match. But other than that, like he did beat Son of 1016 01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:49.039 Havoc, I believe did he oh right when Son of Havoc was on that 1017 01:30:49.079 --> 01:30:54.039 giant losing streak. So okay, a little bit off topic, but yeah, 1018 01:30:54.119 --> 01:30:58.039 the the the reason why I made that statement was that like, for 1019 01:30:58.119 --> 01:31:04.600 me, representation and the way that I sort of pH test like strip test, 1020 01:31:04.960 --> 01:31:10.039 whether or not a promotion is treating their talent as equal to their other 1021 01:31:10.119 --> 01:31:14.960 talent is whether or not they let them win. Ever, Right, so 1022 01:31:15.399 --> 01:31:21.760 until the very finale of Luca underground cage was oddly mistreated. But as the 1023 01:31:21.880 --> 01:31:27.000 largest man on the roster. Yeah, I mean he's built as just this 1024 01:31:27.439 --> 01:31:32.279 massive monster of a man, and yet wasn't doing a whole lot of that 1025 01:31:32.319 --> 01:31:38.840 winning thing, which you know that that speak because yes, the as we 1026 01:31:38.840 --> 01:31:43.319 discussed is all fictional, so the winning is sort of scripted, but it 1027 01:31:43.359 --> 01:31:47.039 does do something story wise to legitimacy, and that sort of plays into our 1028 01:31:47.079 --> 01:31:55.439 ideas of the legitimacy of those people as equal to the other competitors. Right, 1029 01:31:55.960 --> 01:31:59.279 And so that's like sort of a broad metatopic as well, the idea 1030 01:31:59.399 --> 01:32:04.159 that if you have somebody who doesn't do a lot of winning, that makes 1031 01:32:04.159 --> 01:32:09.399 it seem to the fans like they're not as good as everybody else who is 1032 01:32:09.560 --> 01:32:15.640 potential, who is winning matches, and so's there's sort of a conceit that 1033 01:32:15.680 --> 01:32:19.520 they have to have in order to make them legitimate. They have to actually 1034 01:32:19.600 --> 01:32:26.520 manage those results in a way that makes it seem like everybody has a chance. 1035 01:32:27.600 --> 01:32:31.880 I think, unless people have more to talk about on that particular topic, 1036 01:32:32.319 --> 01:32:36.159 I think we're ready to share closing thoughts and do a wrap up. 1037 01:32:36.199 --> 01:32:40.800 Is there anything you wanted to talk about on that topic or on others that 1038 01:32:40.840 --> 01:32:43.359 we didn't get to touch on. Well, as you can see, this 1039 01:32:43.479 --> 01:32:46.479 is a very light topic with very few points of discussion, and that's clearly 1040 01:32:46.560 --> 01:32:50.359 everything we can talk about on the subject. One percent. We're done, 1041 01:32:50.479 --> 01:32:54.880 We've talked about. Nobody ever has to do this discussion again. We've covered 1042 01:32:54.880 --> 01:33:00.279 all of wrestling until next year when there's more of it. Right, Addison, 1043 01:33:00.399 --> 01:33:03.560 anything anything else you want to talk about or want to make sure that 1044 01:33:03.600 --> 01:33:11.159 we discussed before we wrap up. No, I think everything that I had 1045 01:33:11.199 --> 01:33:15.520 thought about going into this, and also lots of other things have now already 1046 01:33:15.520 --> 01:33:18.960 been said. Awesome, outstanding. Well think I want to thank both of 1047 01:33:19.000 --> 01:33:24.159 you for coming on and joining us for this discussion. Don't think it would 1048 01:33:24.159 --> 01:33:28.880 have been nearly as profitable if it was just me like mansplanning wrestling to Matthew 1049 01:33:28.920 --> 01:33:31.359 for several hours. So it was a lot. It was a more organic 1050 01:33:31.359 --> 01:33:36.119 discussion. You each had a lot to contribute that I really appreciated. If 1051 01:33:36.560 --> 01:33:43.000 if you're interested, if anybody have has an interest in continuing the discussions, 1052 01:33:44.119 --> 01:33:46.560 with you after this? Is there any way that you want to give out 1053 01:33:46.560 --> 01:33:50.880 for people to contact you? So, Tim any any Yeah, I don't 1054 01:33:50.960 --> 01:33:56.600 use it much, but I do have a Twitter that is at awble Tim 1055 01:33:57.000 --> 01:34:01.560 that's at au b e l T. I m on Twitter. Most of 1056 01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:05.960 what I have on there is retweeting stuff people who are way smarter than me 1057 01:34:06.000 --> 01:34:11.479 talk about. But if you want to start a discussion about wrestling or the 1058 01:34:11.520 --> 01:34:16.520 ethics thereof, or if you want other media within wrestling that discusses these sort 1059 01:34:16.560 --> 01:34:20.720 of things, I'm very happy to talk about that. Awesome And Edison, 1060 01:34:20.720 --> 01:34:25.600 how can people get in touch with you if they want to? So? 1061 01:34:25.800 --> 01:34:30.640 I am at demollet on platforms d A m U l l e T. 1062 01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:33.680 I've got a Twitter, I've probably got a mastered on if I can remember 1063 01:34:33.720 --> 01:34:39.680 the password, neopets forums, whatever. If you see somebody with that name, 1064 01:34:39.720 --> 01:34:44.840 it's probably me. And then as always as for me, I am 1065 01:34:45.079 --> 01:34:48.199 bots are people too. On Twitter. The R is the letter R. 1066 01:34:48.359 --> 01:34:54.600 The rest of the actual words. Matthew is caped ethicis on Twitter and we 1067 01:34:54.640 --> 01:34:59.359 also have the Superhero Ethics Twitter as well as the Superhero Ethics Facebook group. 1068 01:34:59.399 --> 01:35:01.920 You can join the to help join in on some of the discussions we've been 1069 01:35:01.960 --> 01:35:05.439 having. We've had a couple of people respond to our Harry Potter episode or 1070 01:35:05.479 --> 01:35:11.920 to what in the world did we do before Harry Potter? My brain doesn't 1071 01:35:11.920 --> 01:35:15.960 work anymore because I'm an old person. The episode, yeah, the sort 1072 01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:21.079 of the Sunset MCU episode, right, So, but really, any of 1073 01:35:21.119 --> 01:35:26.520 the topics we've talked about, there have been many posts having discussions. It 1074 01:35:26.560 --> 01:35:30.479 is a Facebook group, which means that one of the admins has to approve 1075 01:35:30.520 --> 01:35:33.039 you, but we have a policy of auto approving and then deleting spammers, 1076 01:35:33.479 --> 01:35:36.359 So if you want to come in, you're fine. If you're a spammer, 1077 01:35:36.399 --> 01:35:42.479 well you are a robot, so I do acknowledge your agency as a 1078 01:35:42.479 --> 01:35:44.880 person, but I'm still going to have to boot you from the group to 1079 01:35:44.960 --> 01:35:47.560 keep our word count down and make sure the topics can float to the top 1080 01:35:47.600 --> 01:35:51.319 of people's views that people actually want to talk about, rather than whatever you're 1081 01:35:51.319 --> 01:35:56.960 trying to advertise. So apologies, but that's the way it's got to be 1082 01:35:57.039 --> 01:36:01.399 in this harsh and cruel world, my robot friend, Otherwise, I'm gonna 1083 01:36:01.399 --> 01:36:05.159 be kicking it to Matthew to you sort of a post recording outro but by 1084 01:36:05.399 --> 01:36:10.600 behalf of myself, Tim Mobble and Addison, thank you very much for listening 1085 01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:30.840 and have a good day. I heard a lipsmack, but not a swallow