WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net Rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.400 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.240 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:18.399 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:23.440 up now at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard. 6 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:28.000 Here. As you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in 7 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:34.320 person conferences around the world. NDC Copenhagen is happening August twenty seventh through the 8 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:40.600 thirty first. Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com for more information. DC Porto 9 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:45.359 is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. Go to Dcporto dot com to register 10 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:52.479 and check out the full lineup of conferences at NDC Conferences dot com. Hey 11 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:57.119 there, this is Jeff Fritz, the purple Blazer guy from Microsoft, letting 12 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:00.200 you in on a little secret about my friend Carl Frank. You know, 13 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:04.879 the guy who started dot net Rocks, the first podcast about dot net in 14 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:10.599 two thousand and two, The guy who's been teaching Blazer on YouTube since twenty 15 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:15.959 twenty. Yeah, that Carl Franklin. Well, Carl's joined up with the 16 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:21.000 folks from CODE in a Castle to teach a week long hands on Blazer class 17 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:26.200 at Are you Ready to Get This? At a castle slash villa in Tuscany. 18 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:32.519 It's sort of a luxury vacation with Blazer learning built in. Carl's calling 19 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:38.879 it the Blazer master Class. You'll learn Blazer from the ground up, finishing 20 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:44.400 the week with the ability to build and deploy Blazer applications. Since the training 21 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:48.359 happens for only four hours in the morning over six days, you can bring 22 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:53.159 your significant other your partner with you and you should right This part of Italy 23 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:59.359 is absolutely beautiful. There's so much to see and do and and Larry and 24 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:05.040 Marco from Code into Castle are organizing daily activities both at the castle and in 25 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:08.199 the area. The castle is in the Marema, a less touristed region of 26 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:15.120 Tuscany, offering both classic Tuscan hill country as well as easy access to the 27 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:21.439 Etruscan Riviera, with sublime local food, wine and olive oil around every corner. 28 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:24.639 Breakfast is included every day. There will be two communal dinners at the 29 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:30.400 castle, book ending the experience, and most other meals and all activities are 30 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:35.479 included. And did I mention you'll learn Blazer in person from Carl Franklin. 31 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.319 Listen, space is limited, and for very good reason. This is quality 32 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:46.039 training in a beautiful setting. Go to code in Acastle dot com slash Blazer 33 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:53.000 twenty twenty three that's bla z R two zero two three to take advantage of 34 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:59.840 this amazing opportunity to join Carl in Tuscany for an unforgettable week of led dulce 35 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:17.639 vita while advancing your programming skills in this important new technology. Hey, it's 36 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:22.719 dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, and I'm Richard Campbell, and Jeremy 37 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:24.000 Miller is here with us. We'll talk to him in a few seconds. 38 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:28.560 But first, Hey, buddy, how's it going. I'm slightly wounded. 39 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.080 No really, what happened? You know, we're we're getting close to moving, 40 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:36.000 and so the neighbors for his little party last night, and I may 41 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:40.159 have pulled out a twenty one year old bottle of whiskey and somehow the whole 42 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:46.120 thing disappeared. Oh my god. So uh, you know, neighbors. 43 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.479 The toughest part of leaving this house is the neighborhood. I got that because 44 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:54.719 you always talked fondly of your neighborhood parties, and that's just nice. I 45 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:59.439 have. I have neighbors on one side that I like, the rest of 46 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:05.280 them across the street from me doesn't speak English, and the one Candywompus across 47 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:12.639 the street, I'd rather not talk to him. So just one of those 48 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.840 things, right, It's just one of those things. Well, anyway, 49 00:04:15.040 --> 00:04:28.839 let's roll the crazy music for better No framework awesome. Well, what I 50 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:32.680 have is episode ninety seven of Blazer Train, which is coming out today as 51 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.839 we speak. You're staring one hundred in the face. Brother, almost yeah, 52 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:42.959 but this one's important because there's no code demos. It's a conceptual overview 53 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:47.480 of Blazer and dot Net eight and I won't basically the mantra is it changes 54 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:51.360 everything, and I won't tell you what it is yet. You got to 55 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:56.519 watch it. But I had this revelation while, you know, the first 56 00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:00.800 time I was talking about they were talking about Blazer United and stuff. They're 57 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.199 talking a lot of features that didn't have anything to do with interactivity, and 58 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:11.199 then I realized, that's a good thing. They've added stuff to Blazer that 59 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.959 asp net Core NBC has been doing, but now you can do it with 60 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:23.240 Blazer components and it doesn't require any you know, any server side signal er 61 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.839 or circuits or anything like that. They're just features. So I think, 62 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:31.800 you know, with the new interactivity stuff being dynamic and you can choose it, 63 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:40.439 plus these these features of existing stuff that now now Blazer, the Blazer 64 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:48.480 web app template in dot net eight becomes your go to ASP net core project 65 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:55.360 type template because because there's no reason not to. Right anyway, I just 66 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:59.319 blew my mind sort of a Blazer grows up moment. Yeah, it really 67 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:03.399 is. And you know that this is where Microsoft is putting their effort into. 68 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.560 You know, these Blazer components are great. You don't have to do 69 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:09.959 interactivity, you don't have to do web assembly, you don't have to do 70 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:13.480 Blazer server ken if you want to, but you don't have to. Right, 71 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:15.079 it just changes everything. So anyway, check it out. No, 72 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:19.839 it learned it, Levet. This is episode eighteen sixty, So if you 73 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:24.560 go to eighteen sixty dot poop dot me, you can go right to the 74 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:27.920 video or go to blazer train dot com look for episode ninety seven. That's 75 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.439 it awesome. Who's talking to us today. Richard grab comment off of show 76 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.839 eighteen twenty three, the one we did with one Jeremy miller Hey talking a 77 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:39.079 bit about Wolverine, dot net and command and Message bus. I had a 78 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.560 lot of comments on this show. I mostly about Jeremy's rant at the end 79 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.560 of the show, which was hilarious. It was great. Yeah, look, 80 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:48.199 maybe a touch hyperbolic, so the literalists had a little problem with it. 81 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:53.279 Yeah, and rack Yak says, this is a great episode, and 82 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.519 I was amused by Jeremy's rant at the end. I feel like he might 83 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:59.800 have missed the mark a bit there. In my experience, the prime benefits 84 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:03.199 of clean Onion style architecture do not really pertain to the horizontal, so to 85 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:05.439 speak. I've worked in several such systems, and I can show you that 86 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:10.680 the vertical thinking was still very much the norm on all of them. Sure, 87 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.480 by throwing a repository interface, which is by the way, not prescribed 88 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.879 and clean, in front of the data access, you leave the door open 89 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.720 to swapping underlying providers and data stores. But honestly, whoever does that? 90 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.680 Rather, the prime benefit of clean in my experience, comes from just abstracting 91 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:30.759 away infrastructure and out of process details like databases and messacues. Something that clean 92 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:35.920 does prescribe. Doing so promotes isolation of core domain logic, and that process 93 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:41.079 is hugely facilitates automated testing of that logic, which is where I've reaped the 94 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.199 greatest benefits. Yeah, that's fine. I'm not going to disagree for a 95 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.120 moment with you know, Jeremy's core purpose, which was you can over engineer, 96 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:56.480 you can turn architecture into dogma, and that doesn't necessarily serve in delivering 97 00:07:56.519 --> 00:08:01.000 software. But you know, to Rack gass point, there are textual styles 98 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.759 that certainly support making software more testable, and yep, testable software is more 99 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:07.480 reliable. Yeah, yeah, so, Rack yak, thank you so much 100 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:09.560 for your comment, and a coffee. Music cod By is on its way 101 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:11.680 to UNI if you'd like him a cofee of music code By, write a 102 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:13.759 comment on the website at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks. 103 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.879 We publish every show there, and if you comment there and I reading the 104 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:18.720 show, we'll send you a copy of music go By and you can follow 105 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.439 us on X if you want. I can't believe I just said that. 106 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.879 Why Why why? X? He's everybody knows, you know, he's not 107 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.439 like anybody's confused when you say Twitter, Right, let's take a great brand 108 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.360 and change it. I just don't get Apparently he's auctioned off all the last 109 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:37.559 of the logo stuff. You can buy the big sign off the front of 110 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.399 the building and things. Anyway. You can follow us there Twitter is what 111 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:48.200 I'm talking about. Or on mastodon. I'm Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot 112 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.759 social and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon do social. Send us a two let 113 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.879 us know you're out there, and let's bring on Jeremy Miller for like the 114 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:00.639 I don't know ninth time he's been on a long time. He gets around. 115 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.679 Yeah. So Jeremy Miller started his career as a real engineer and that's 116 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:09.399 in quotes, but wandered into software because that looked like more fun. Since 117 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:13.039 then, Jeremy has worked in and led software development teams in the computer manufacturing 118 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:18.679 industry, finance, insurance, healthcare, and banking industries. Lately, Jeremy 119 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:24.679 has been focused on leading software architecture teams and helping mentor other software architects, 120 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:30.840 having had roles both as an in house software architect and as a software consultant, 121 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:35.039 Jeremy has a great deal of insight into the challenges that confront companies developing 122 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:41.120 and maintaining enterprise systems over time. Jeremy is well known for his open source 123 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.759 software tools, starting with structure Map and continuing today to Martin and Wolverine, 124 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.759 also known as the Critter Stack, which we'll talk about. Jeremy is also 125 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:56.639 a frequent author and technical speaker at software conferences and can be found at Jeremy 126 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:01.600 dmiller dot com. Welcome back, buddy, Hey guys, glad to be 127 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:05.399 back. Just kind of point out if you're really all the way up to 128 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:09.440 episode eighteen sixty, you understand that puts us right on the verge of the 129 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.799 Civil War. Yeah, right on, one more episode and it's Civil war 130 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:18.840 time. And sorry for the long winded bio. I remembered you were going 131 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:22.240 to have to read that out. It's like when your kids want you to 132 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.200 read a book that is just the most awkward thing in the entire world to 133 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:31.919 read. Right, let's read Robinson Crusoe. Yeah. Okay, So I 134 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:33.799 don't know if anyone else to remember this as a kid, but there are 135 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:39.000 the Lloyd Alexander series the I think Pridane books. No, I don't remember 136 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:43.159 those we read as kids, so it's a fantasy series. It went all 137 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:48.720 kinds of Newberry Awards for kids, and I loved it as kids. The 138 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:50.559 Black Cauldron. Disney made a movie out of it. Okay, yeah, 139 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:58.159 yeah, yeah, But it's all based on Welsh Welsh myths and mythology, 140 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.480 so all the names are will Welsh Smith's and apologies to any Welsh speakers, 141 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:09.759 they are a little hard to pronounce. Some weird consonants in there in places 142 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:16.720 where they promise shouldn't be yea, yeah, well if you have a comment 143 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:22.960 on the comment, I do. So he's right in the sense that that 144 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.440 you can be okay with clean or onion or all that kind of stuff if 145 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:33.440 you focus on vertical slices first, keeping the places. And I did an 146 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:39.879 entire conference talk at in dc Oslo this year the contrarian view of software architecture. 147 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:45.960 Right. Where all these these prescriptive layered architectures go wrong, It's because 148 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.879 people follow them, maybe a little bit naively, but they build these massively 149 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:56.799 horizontal layers where you still have this massive project where every single feature is spread 150 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:01.039 out on these four or five layers. You can't follow the code at all. 151 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.960 You can't upgrade anything because each individual layer is just too big. It 152 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:11.600 is impractical to reap any of the theoretical supposed benefits of clean architecture and whatnot. 153 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.440 Yeah, so I'm gonna stand by that rant. I've even got a 154 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.639 whole talk about it now on online. It's a good rant. Well what 155 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:26.120 you've been working on. So, at the tender age of forty nine, 156 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.799 I have gone solo. So founded a company called jasper FFX Software. It's 157 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:37.480 based named after my little hometown back home, map dot on a blacktop. 158 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.840 But we should disambiguate jasper FFX, the company with jasper ffx the product that 159 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:46.960 is now Wolverine. Right. Well, so somewhere another there's like an old 160 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.960 recommendation to don't name no damn your product after your company. Yeah, and 161 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.440 so jasper was going nowhere we renamed it. Somebody said, having a conversation 162 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.799 with my other contributors on core MC team member for Martin of you know, 163 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:05.039 hey, what if we call it Wolverine. It's the same family as Martin. 164 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:11.200 You know. Somebody started laughing and calling the critter Stack our buddy killed 165 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.320 from from jet brains just you know, in thirty seconds just popped up. 166 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:22.120 Here's the possible graphics and emblem for it. So critter stack was born. 167 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:26.200 I love creatter stack. That's cool. Yeah, it's a lot more fun. 168 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:31.360 You could be critters inc. You know, yes, yes, yeah, 169 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.840 all right, So it's called Jasper Effects. So is it based on 170 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:43.039 services around your products? I guess and consultations? So you know, obviously 171 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:48.399 this is very topical because of all the conversations going on in lieu of the 172 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.320 mock incident. We're gonna throw spaghetti up against the wall, right, We're 173 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:56.320 gonna start. We are already started as a services model. We're helping a 174 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:01.879 couple of clients with Wolverine specifically, but we're hoping to grow into both the 175 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:07.759 services and a full blown product company service contracts, consulting of course, but 176 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:13.440 we are going to build licensed to add on models to Martin and Wolverine, 177 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.720 specifically for bigger companies and need big volumes of data. Right, sure, 178 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:24.200 so you're sort of taking the identity server model route. It sounds like, 179 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:30.399 yes. So we're very conscious of what do enda software is done. You 180 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:33.600 know, we don't start from as anywhere near as big user base as they 181 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:39.360 did, so we're going to try to stay with an MIT licensed open core 182 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:45.200 but build commercial products on top. Yeah. You know, we've we've kicked 183 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:50.360 around the idea of going to the Business Business Software License maybe at some point, 184 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.039 but right now open core. Did you Your listeners will know that's very 185 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.879 controversial. How do you take an open source project and take it sustainable with 186 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.639 without managing to aggravate the hell out of your users? Yeah? Yeah, 187 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.639 that's been a topic of many of our shows. Yeah, it's you know 188 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.559 this. We have this story arc of the evolution of open source going on 189 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.360 in docmond Rocks, and certainly we've had great conversation different folks, including the 190 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.559 de Ende folks, about how they're how they're trying to make a living as 191 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:26.879 well as support their customers properly because it's also impediments there. But the nature 192 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:31.440 of their product as an identity product, very enterprise centric, was genuinely enterprises 193 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.759 just plain old one to pay for it. I almost been paying attention to 194 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:41.679 Troy Hunt's battles with things like like the have I been pooned API? He's 195 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:46.000 charging like five bucks for it, but the barrier to pay that five dollars 196 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.039 for most organizations like it's got nothing to do with the money, has to 197 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:52.720 do with the workflow, like what does it take to get a bill paid 198 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.080 essentially inside of a company. It's it's just fascinating to me that we struggle 199 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:03.120 with this in software to this day. So you know, I'm still very 200 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.159 early in the journey how to get how to monetize things. I don't know. 201 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.679 I am just paying right now. We're paying attention to everyone else, 202 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.799 you know, dinga going first, definitely watching particular software. Just there's just 203 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.200 a small handful of open source companies in the dot net world, and we're 204 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.159 hoping to be one of them. But I don't I don't have those answers 205 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.600 yet. Yeah, we haven't made it. We haven't made it. I 206 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.879 don't think we will make a show about this situation with Mack. It's we're 207 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.799 in the middle of it right now while we're recording the show. Do you 208 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:40.360 have a comment on it? Well, first of all, people need to 209 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:45.159 know what happened, right, they took a dependency on something that was sharing 210 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:52.159 data, right, So I'll try so folks, I and guys. Honestly, 211 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.919 I probably wouldn't have reached out to be on the show if i'd known 212 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.799 that what's going to happen. So, you know, mock you is you 213 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:06.039 actually used I was. I don't use it personally. I prefer in substitute 214 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:11.799 and other options. But it's massively used, right framework for those of you 215 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.680 don't, yeah, sorry, you know, And it's there's a long history, 216 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:19.920 so it's been around a long time. It is. The download numbers 217 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:25.400 he quoted online and kind of shocked me. Those were big. So it's 218 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:29.359 very widely used, you know, And as far as I know, it's 219 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:33.200 just just Daniel. It's probably the only guy that's really managing it. So 220 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:40.839 he has worked up this other small library that as a way to try to 221 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:44.920 gather up support. It was going to try to gather up if you were 222 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.720 using the library. It was going to try to look in assuming it get 223 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.519 you were going to get repository. It was going to try and find email 224 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.720 emails from contributors from the get history and it emailed it back, It sent 225 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:02.440 that back to some kind of central phoned home, right. You know. 226 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:06.799 I think it was a well meant attempt to just figure out who's using my 227 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.920 tool, and I can build an email list and I can send them out 228 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:12.519 and hey, do you you're using this, you're getting value. Kid, 229 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.680 You want to do you want to support it? You know the problem He 230 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:19.400 did tell people about this ahead of time, but you don't really get feedback 231 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:26.039 on that kind of thing until people get impacted. But when people started understanding, 232 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.519 hey, this is sending information back, you know, there's privacy concerns. 233 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:34.279 People start talking about the European privacy. I started paying attention to it 234 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:41.799 when somebody said mocking library compromising pa, you know, potentially sensitive information that 235 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:47.839 that's the first time I started wondering what is going on here. So that's 236 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:55.640 my understanding of what's happening, and the the the reaction has been pretty harsh 237 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.920 from the community game Yeah, I mean at the moment again, I don't 238 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:03.000 we don't do you know, daily shows here read real time, so it's 239 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.519 unfair to public. Were published this a few weeks later, but you know 240 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:12.880 today on Twitter you've got smart people in software saying everybody makes a mistake like 241 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.799 be kind, you know, which I think is a good policy, Like 242 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:22.359 in general, it would have been worse if he shared it with you know, 243 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.160 or sold that data, I think, but if if he's using it 244 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.440 for his own personal email list, to say hey, thank you for using 245 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.920 my stuff or whatever. It's not it's a little more benign than than sharing 246 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:37.720 everything. Still not cool. No, tips, I think he's back. 247 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.079 He's back that out. Let's give it a bit of about that. He's 248 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:45.559 going to take care of the privacy concerns, So get on the right side 249 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.359 of those kinds of issues. I'm gonna say, I don't think you should 250 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:53.400 have done it exactly the way he did it. But on the other hand, 251 00:19:53.759 --> 00:20:02.759 he's apparently gained empty new GitHub sponsors, so maybe in this particular case 252 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.319 there there's a happy ending for him. But it's bringing to light all the 253 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:11.559 normal issues about how how is open source is going to be maintainable and sustainable 254 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.279 here when so many of us depend on it in our jobs. Sure, 255 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.839 yeah, you can't just act as if you're a business and you've got a 256 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:26.359 user agreement and yeah, so anyway, no, I mean he was he 257 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:32.240 didn't experiment. Again, we can debate the methodology, but I understand it. 258 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.559 It's and it's funny to see that what it did get generate with a 259 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.119 whole bunch of new sponsors. So anyway, I don't I won't. I 260 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:41.359 want to show this as a strategy, right, It's just like, yeah, 261 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:48.519 I hope it doesn't happen to you. I mann create controversy, controversy, 262 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.839 get money. Yeah, I don't know if I want that system that 263 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:57.200 either, all right, man, I know of mock. I don't know 264 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.960 that I have it in any projects at the moment, I understand the situation's 265 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.880 got into it seems unfortunate, and I don't know that will where it'll go 266 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.359 from here, whether it's becomes a talking point going forward in this larger story 267 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.279 of how we make a living on our open source projects. So, on 268 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.960 another topic, what's new with Wolverine A lot. So it's made it post 269 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.119 just since we last talked. It's made it post one. It's made it 270 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.440 to the big one point zero. You know. It's the usage numbers aren't 271 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:29.720 off the chart, but it's enough that I'm busy every day answering questions on 272 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:34.519 discord. Start to work with some initial initial clients that are implementing it right 273 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.640 now. About to push a lot of improvements for as your Service bus integration. 274 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:45.519 We've pushed Sequel server, a new Sequel server back transport for people that 275 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.119 want to do messaging. They already have a sequel server database. They don't 276 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:57.720 want to invest in other infrastructure trying to drive It also has a model to 277 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:03.960 build HP point points that would be an alternative to a minimal API or MVC 278 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:11.519 for web services that was specifically meant for originally for Hey, you're using Wolverine, 279 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.359 you might as well pull this in because you'll need when you're integrating with 280 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:22.599 Wolverine, you're gonna want to use transactional outboxes. There's a very strong middleware 281 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:27.119 approach. And it turns out I think the HP service model is starting to 282 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:33.519 catch on because it's it's lower ceremony code ceremony than VC. I think we 283 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:37.400 have the potential to beat minimal API and MVC by quite a bit with performance 284 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.359 as well, just by having a lighter weight, just letter weight runtime. 285 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:48.599 So I'm real happy with how it's going. And to circle back, so 286 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:52.799 some things that have changed significantly since the last time we talked that kind of 287 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:57.680 surprised me. It has through a lot of early user suggestions that I'm glad 288 00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:03.440 I listened to. It's kind of gone off into kind of a quasi functional 289 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:11.319 programming approach. I'm gonna take a lot of online from f sharp driving to 290 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:17.680 a point where I think Wolverine. Using Wolverine is going to allow you to 291 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.839 get to a very maintainable code base with very low code ceremony, without deal 292 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:30.559 having to pull in really complicated clean architecture onion architecture. Whatnot? Being able 293 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:37.720 to do more doesn't use affluent syntax for example, no functional decomposition a little 294 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:44.759 more much more more conventional based, but being able to break a break a 295 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:49.279 single handler, single message based. Start organizing our code around use cases rather 296 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:56.240 than nouns. Being able to put very cleanly put your data, access the 297 00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:02.839 actual business logic, and supposed processing handling all in one file, but still 298 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:08.960 have very clean separation of concerns. Just you have far fewer coding archifacts. 299 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:15.279 All the related code is together in one place, all the testability you want. 300 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:21.799 Put closely related code together, minimal abstractions, don't scatter your code all 301 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:27.000 around a prescriptive, clean architecture project structural Well that sounds great. So why 302 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:33.519 did you WinCE when you said the word functional? I have gotten into it 303 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.599 quite a few times online. The the f sharp community can be very enthusiastic. 304 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:42.559 Oh come on, you can say it better way than that. Do 305 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:48.359 you all remember decades ago on Silent Life, there was a skit with Pat 306 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:52.440 Sir Patrick Stewart, Yeah, the if it's not Scottish it's crap. Oh 307 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:56.920 yeah yeah, and Mike Myers. Yeah to me, the F sharp folks 308 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:02.200 there there, Sir Patrick, stupid little dogmatic. I mean, if it's 309 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:06.559 not their way, it's crap and that that can rub me the wrong way 310 00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:11.480 sometimes. But Wolverine is probably turning out. I think it's probably turning out 311 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:17.400 to be eventually very sharp friendly. It is going to allow C sharp developers 312 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:21.480 to maybe write code a little bit more functionally. Oh that's good. That's 313 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:23.319 certainly. That's certainly a show we've done as well, right, that that 314 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:29.759 you learn learning a functional language helps you write more functionally in other languages as 315 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.960 well. I don't know that I necessarily pointed the F sharp folks as the 316 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.640 dogmatic ones. Folks that like functional because it's not the most popular way to 317 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.160 write code in the world. They tend to be very enthusiastic about doing that, 318 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.599 Like you don't write functionally by accident. Yeah, that's true, Richard, 319 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.319 that's well said. I don't think. I don't think I've done sime 320 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.839 as dogmatic. I didn't say dogmatic, said I did, so I'll take 321 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:57.279 that one. But but but if folks can also you know, whenever you 322 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.880 talk to a smaller community like that, like they're there for a reason. 323 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:06.319 Yeah, there tends to be a higher intensity in general the way they approach 324 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:11.440 their language and programming styles. And they probably worked pretty darn hard to get 325 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.720 good at it too, you know. Yes, yes, functioning is functional 326 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.759 is challenging way to think in two ways about it. But just to follow 327 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:25.599 up on that just a little bit, so a crucial difference between Wolverine and 328 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:32.000 it's natural competitors, the mediator and service bus mass transit. I'm going to 329 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:36.359 leave some out, sorry, folks, brighter for me and Cooper Rebus, 330 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:41.519 they're all they generally follow pattern I prefer to as the eye handler of t 331 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.400 approach. You know, sooner or later there is some interface you have to 332 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:52.640 implement that has a couple couple generic constraints for what's the input type? Right, 333 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:59.039 you have to conform to their model. Wolverine instead wraps code around we 334 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:04.160 wrap or adapt or around your code. Okay, the sounds a little abstract. 335 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:10.640 As with inheritance model, it's doing runtime code generation code great it's not 336 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:15.960 as crazy as it sounds, but it enables us to do a lot of 337 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:21.720 things like out of your handler methods or your web service methods, you can 338 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.079 return an object that just says I want this document saved, I want this 339 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.279 file saved. So one of the things that destory or I want this other 340 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.440 message sent out. My message I'm going to decide what gets done next, 341 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:40.160 doesn't go to this web service that web service. How does it continue? 342 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:45.400 But you're just returning a value. Your handler functions become pure functions. They 343 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.359 don't have to be asynchronous anymore. They just return, take in data, 344 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:53.400 return data for what's going to happen. In some cases that's great. Actually, 345 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:59.000 the more I don't have to modify my code to suit a transport, 346 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.920 the better. Yes, that's that's our theory, and that's our hope. 347 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:06.240 That some people are going to hate it, but we just hope that enough 348 00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:08.279 people love it that we have a viable path forward. Yeah, And you 349 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:15.559 know it's funny how much there you have these thoughts about using this path of 350 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:19.240 success or you know, falling into the pit of success approach to if we 351 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.119 use the tool this way, like just good things are going to happen, 352 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:27.960 and that's very hard to do. It's very very hard as a tool company. 353 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:33.039 It's really the only way to get it's the goal, but the only 354 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.440 way to get there is to get it out used by enough people that you 355 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.200 get feedback on all the things that are confusing or the ways that they use 356 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:47.240 it that you didn't anticipate in it's kind of a long term sand paper approach. 357 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.640 You know, they find all the rough spots in your system, everything 358 00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:56.680 that's confusing, and you're just constantly standing off off that. So but at 359 00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:57.759 the same time, you still want to stick to a path, right, 360 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:02.319 Like you don't want to be all things to all people. This is kind 361 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:07.119 of an opinion approach to building software. So you know, it's a it's 362 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:08.799 a question of it is that a rough edge or is it the wrong way? 363 00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:15.119 Yes? And so far. You know, again, it's not a 364 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:18.720 huge amount of usage. I don't know if it'll ever go mainstream, but 365 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:23.599 some people that are into it have really liked it and even seem to prefer 366 00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:27.960 it over the older eye handler of t approach. Hey, if it delivers 367 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:33.079 results, right, that's what people care about. Yes, and gentlemen, 368 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.319 I use that term loosely. I'm gonna interrupt for one moment for this very 369 00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:42.400 important message, and we're back. It's dot net Rock. I'm Richer Campbell. 370 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:45.480 Let's call Franklin. Hey, Hey, chatting with our friend Jeremy Millner 371 00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:52.799 a bit about his new re organization and reorganization for Martin Wolverine, the Jasper 372 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:57.519 FX folks, and just this idea of how approaching software. I'm not gonna 373 00:29:57.559 --> 00:30:03.799 say from a less formal style, but you know, lightweight. I think 374 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.680 you should call it critter style. Serious. We're definitely aiming for the lowest, 375 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:11.960 for a very low ceremony code style, right that that also leans towards 376 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:18.200 and I'm thinking about conversations we've had recently towards this mindset of small teams, 377 00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:26.279 and a lot of these ceremony ceremonious approaches to software are built around the mindset 378 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.359 of we have a large number people that we want to work simultaneously, and 379 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.960 so the ceremonies actually a way to keep those folks in line. But if 380 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.519 your team's not that big and everybody can fit around a table for dinner, 381 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.759 then then stay in low ceremony makes a lot of sense. You get more 382 00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:44.440 delivered in less time. So maybe taking a tangent from what you're saying, 383 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.680 going to the topic of microservices, which I know we're in a full blown 384 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:55.000 backlash against micro services. Yes, the pendulum has swung. Yeah, we're 385 00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:04.079 in the trough of the disillusionment. So what I am seeing is some efforts, 386 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:11.880 some attempts to adopt microservices are defeated because they still try to adopt a 387 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.720 full, big bang, clean architecture approach of Yeah, this thing is technically 388 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.640 very small, it could be, but I'm still going to use four different 389 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:22.839 projects. I'm gonna layer do a bunch of layering. I have all the 390 00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.720 exact same overhead to get all the extra stuff in there to write just a 391 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:32.440 tiny bit of functionality, and that's defeating the purpose of using a microservice. 392 00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.079 So I think the pendulum is going to correct just a tiny bit. Yeah, 393 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:40.519 I think so, I hope so at tiny bit. Yeah, it's 394 00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.400 it's going to come back a little bit. But the microservices thing is going 395 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.119 to work if you can just write much simpler code where you can see everything 396 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:55.680 together and stin stay in the arena of I'm also going to try to pick 397 00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.880 purposely picked tools that play very nicely in Integration testing kind of another theory, 398 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:05.400 and this is something Wolverine and Martin especially you're built on. Is the idea 399 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.440 if you can make I think, if you can make integration testing easy all 400 00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:15.279 the way end through the database or through the messaging with Wolverine, if you 401 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:20.119 can do that, then I think you worry much less about abstractions and malch 402 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:25.119 libraries and all this extra stuff. If it's still easy to test your code, 403 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.880 I don't worry quite so much about splitting that stuff up with that extra 404 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:35.680 extra stuff just to get get unitestine. So it's another way of driving towards 405 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:39.039 simpler code. Yeah. Absolutely. Wait, you use the term tropic disillusionment, 406 00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:42.799 which is from the Gartner hype cycle. It's funny because I've been using 407 00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.720 it on Windows weekly lately to talk about large language models. Right it's like 408 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.400 h's changed everything. It's always like we are at the height of a hype 409 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.960 cycle right now. Boys, Let's be clear, you know you're not more 410 00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:59.359 you could never be more deluded than we could possibly be about this technology right 411 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.079 now. All the noise that's going on, but just the you know, 412 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:06.680 it's not just up and then down, it's coming you come back up again. 413 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:12.319 Right. The gardener folks call it the slope of enlightenment to you climb 414 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:16.920 out of the tropic disillusionment with it. There is this oscillation overreacting both ways 415 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:22.599 before you start of settle into a sort of reasonable productive approach. Right, 416 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:28.759 Anything that's parabolic is ultimately going to come back, Yeah, come back down. 417 00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:30.839 Yeah, I'm wear or the other. I'm sorry. I did have 418 00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:34.000 this queue up because I knew we were going to have to talk about the 419 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:39.759 mock cue situation. Yeah. So one of the a thread common thread I 420 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:45.640 see going on what's left of whatever Twitter is called now and Mastodon is why 421 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:50.160 are you using mach libraries? You should never be using moch libraries. So 422 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:55.519 two things would be true here. Huh, folks, You mugously overuse mach 423 00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:01.119 libraries in ways that makes their tests very brittle, very slow, extremely hard 424 00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:06.519 to understand. I've I have probably caused that younger in my career, and 425 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.199 I have tried in vain to help teams get out of that situation. But 426 00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:15.960 at the same time, there's absolutely some very valid usage for these mock libraries, 427 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.760 like mock you or in substitute. So don't don't throw the baby out 428 00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:24.320 with the bathwater. I call these things they're kind of rip pepper appropriate pepper 429 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:29.000 flakes approaches. You know, a little bit can be good, a lot 430 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:34.039 is probably always going to be bad. So don't don't swing guardrail the guardrail 431 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.159 of you know, we're way over using it now, they're always bad. 432 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.599 Throw it out all together. Well, there's a there's a couple of silos 433 00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:45.119 and scenarios that really you do need mocks. You know, when you're doing 434 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:49.599 communication with something that costs money and you don't want your tests to rack up 435 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.840 a lot of bills, and it's relatively simple data, throw a mock in 436 00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:58.199 there. You know, there are some situations where it makes absolute sense. 437 00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.000 It does right now. Some people are gonna argue with you as well that 438 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:07.360 you would just use some kind of static hand rolled fake fake, and and 439 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.320 that's that's valid too. But there's there's absolutely places I would want to use 440 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:16.320 a mocking library for testing, collaboration or interactions. Yeah. Yeah, but 441 00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:20.800 all things can be overused, and yep, we're better worth. I think 442 00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:25.559 our industry is prone to overuse, you know, I think like I think 443 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:29.679 we struggle enough with tools that once we get good at when we try to 444 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:31.320 use it, for a lot of things. It's like you get your you 445 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.920 get your head around a mocking library, like I will not mock all the 446 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:42.039 things. Yeah, and I helped. I helped cause some of that that 447 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:52.039 that was Jeremy clearly I've seen I've seen it go very badly. Yeah, 448 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:57.320 but yes, I helped cause cause that with structure Map had an automocker that 449 00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:00.079 that made it way too easy to use use us kind of tools, and 450 00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:05.119 folks ran with it. Yeah. I think that if you just inserted more 451 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:10.880 pain into your into your your software, it made it more painful to use. 452 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:15.119 That's the way to go, because then people won't use it, and 453 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:19.920 that's what you want, right, and it's you're laughing, but that's an 454 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.320 argument we really had over automocking tools ten fifteen years ago. Yeah, that 455 00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.360 you it's better for everybody if we make it a little more painful, so 456 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.079 people notice when things are off the rails. Right, you're gonna put up 457 00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:36.639 in in the I D eight. Are you sure you want to do this? 458 00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:44.280 Is that really the answer too? But yeah, you know, we 459 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.599 live living in the Microsoft space. Microsoft is famous for the very gradual level 460 00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.239 of education you can get in early not no much get some results. There 461 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:57.039 are plenty of other tools out there that have high cliffs where you've got to 462 00:36:57.079 --> 00:37:00.760 you've got to look quite a bit before you know. Compile one works and 463 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:05.760 you get somewhere, and there's a trade to that. You end up with 464 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:10.719 a much more gradient range of skills with these easy entry tools. And although 465 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:16.840 you know, you find someone you know who's who's effective in a challenging language. 466 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:20.400 And I'm that you can pointed F sharp, Like, if you can 467 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.199 get cod out the door with F sharp, you probably know quite a bit 468 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:27.800 because getting good at that isn't trivial. Yeah, you know, I had 469 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.039 bet too it would be easier if you started with F sharp versus going through 470 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:36.159 you know, I don't think people really do a lot of oo oh yeah 471 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.599 with C sharp, but you know, starting with a class oriented language like 472 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.760 like C sharp or chava. Oh yeah. The unlearning effect is very interesting. 473 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.239 You know, if if the first line programming languages you ever learned are 474 00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:52.760 functional, you just that's the way you're gonna think. Switching between those thought 475 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:58.119 processes is that's tough, yeah, or from our generation of folks, I 476 00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:00.360 know, I'm a little younger than you are, but our generation of folks 477 00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:07.159 learning very database intensive programming first. Yeah, I think it. You know, 478 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:10.920 what was the terrible saying that if you learned basic first, you can 479 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:17.559 never learn to be a real developer, getting people to move beyond between off 480 00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:22.320 of being a very database centric developer. That's something folks used to struggle with. 481 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:29.159 Yeah, because that depends on what area you're from as to what were 482 00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:30.760 you learning and why were you learning it? Right, If you came into 483 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:37.480 software development in the client server time, that's you were doing the same data 484 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:39.800 modeling approach over and over and over again. We were speaking directly to databases. 485 00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:44.280 Everybody wrote a little sequel like that was just the world as it stood 486 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:49.320 at that time, And it is interesting you to think about how much of 487 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:54.519 your original coding mind is shaped. Then it's true taking that as a tangent, 488 00:38:54.599 --> 00:39:00.079 because I refuse to let this go going back to picking on cleaner onion 489 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:06.719 architectures. A lot of the prescriptive guidance you see from those things, people 490 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.840 very naturally, I think, use very crud centric examples. You know, 491 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:15.280 here's the to do or I haven't. We're going to do something about invoicing, 492 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.440 so I have an invoice controller and everything that touches an invoice, goes 493 00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:24.079 through an invoice control or an invoice service, an invoice repository. That kind 494 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:31.440 of noun based code organization is where bigger apps go terribly wrong, with clean 495 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:37.800 or onion or anything like that. I see several other people they're starting to 496 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:40.280 talk about this a little bit more, and I'm jumping on this bandwagon, 497 00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:50.400 moving toward organizing more around use cases or the message messages or inputs and operations, 498 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:53.719 you know, the vertical slice architecture idea. Can you explain what you 499 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.599 mean by noun based, like what kinds of nouns are you seeing? People? 500 00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:02.079 Yeah, So, in a creud centric work view of the world or 501 00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:07.320 really a data centric view of the world, I have Let's say I use 502 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:12.000 an invoice because it's soason a lame. Everybody has an invoicing system somewhere, 503 00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:19.960 so I would have an invoice controller that may have get post put for modifying 504 00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:22.000 an invoice, and if it gets bigger, it probably gets a lot of 505 00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:27.800 extra operations for approve the invoice, you know, so on and so forth. 506 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.320 But I am first organizing the code of anything that touches an invoice goes 507 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:38.440 in these big these files invoice controller to service layer to the invoice repository, 508 00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:43.760 and you can very if you're not careful. And this happens all the time, 509 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:49.800 these classes, these horizontal layers for an invoice get very bloated. That 510 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:55.000 that's kind of a noun centric view of I am organizing code based on it's 511 00:40:55.119 --> 00:41:00.639 data storage or how this relates to an entity. Now, So the entity 512 00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:02.920 now and would be invoice in this case, Yes, I got it. 513 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:08.039 So in that vertical slice architecture, I think that's that's Jimmy Bogart's terminology. 514 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:14.599 People, I think I like the terminology, you know. Instead, I 515 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:16.679 want to organize, and other people describe it. I want to organize around 516 00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:20.960 the verbs. What I would say is you want to organize around the use 517 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:24.480 case a message. Say I want to organize code around approving an invoice. 518 00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:31.440 So in one file or one one namespace, I'm going to have the DTOs 519 00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:37.679 that that model the message for the approve invoice. Yeah, I'm going to 520 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:42.159 put any kind of any kind of data access business logic that's specific to that 521 00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.480 use case goes right there, you know, And there's all kinds of racoles. 522 00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:50.239 If it's shared logic, then it doesn't go there. But anything that 523 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.239 has to do with that particular use case, I'm going to put it together 524 00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:57.719 right there in a tight area of code. I still want separation concerns. 525 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:02.599 And also, you're not you not building a slice for approving everything. It's 526 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:07.599 just approving an invoice. Yes, so it's more granular. Yes, But 527 00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:12.800 just think of all the times you're in one of these big, very very 528 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:16.159 large systems and there's some kind of problem and you're trying to troubleshoot what's wrong. 529 00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:22.280 Right, You're not reasoning about your data layer, You're reasoning about the 530 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:27.280 vertical pipe of how does this message turn into whatever it does? Yeah, 531 00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:30.039 like putting all the code for that one message as close together as possible, 532 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:35.599 I think you've got a better chance at being able to unwind what's going on. 533 00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.280 Yeah, it makes sense. It means I find this fascinating, Like 534 00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:42.920 we're really kind of talking about a minimal approach here. One of my issues 535 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:47.559 with vertical slicing the vertical slice approach then is is also you've got this Conway's 536 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:52.079 law effect. You now have a piece of code that works that's kind of 537 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:54.440 end end. I think you're prone to hanging more things off of it than 538 00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:00.119 you probably make you you should like at some point you're just sticking stuff there 539 00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:02.960 because it's easy to add it rather than make a new slice. Right, 540 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:09.079 Yes, yes, so I'm gonna take that one as well. So I've 541 00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:14.960 been preaching a little bit about coat ceremony and sorry, folks were going on 542 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.159 a little bit of a trip. My furry four legged coworker really desperately wants 543 00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:21.960 to come in. Oh yeah, that's okay. The other thing that strikes 544 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:24.239 me is that once you've got a working vertical slice, it's somewhat you know, 545 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:28.400 the Conway's law fact comes into play off. That's that you know you've 546 00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:30.880 got as system that works, so you're going to tend to reflect it. 547 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:34.679 I suspect you started hanging features off of it that maybe should be in a 548 00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:38.480 different slice, because the commit to building another slice is pretty high compared to 549 00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.880 well, I'll just stick it in the slice to work. Yeah. Yes, 550 00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:45.840 so that's a great point. So let's let's dive back in get again 551 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:51.519 into that theme of trying to go for lower ceremony code, because what you're 552 00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:55.000 talking about, that's something I have really seen be a huge problem in big 553 00:43:55.119 --> 00:44:00.840 enterprise systems that they just accumulate code as client A wants this, client B 554 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:07.280 wants a special logic, and you get these very bloated controllers, message handlers, 555 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.840 whatnot, so code ceremony, and you think of that is, how 556 00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:16.280 many mandatory steps do I have to take to split something off? Do I 557 00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:20.880 have to add four five different classes to do it? Do I have to 558 00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.480 go to up team different projects? Do I have to map something? Or 559 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:29.800 can I just kind of pop something off in one file and do it very 560 00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:36.559 lightly mandatory steps? For do I have to explicitly code up new authorization rules. 561 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.199 I've seen that kind of splitting you're talking about. I've seen it defeated 562 00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:51.840 by mandatory instrumentation. Like if you're doing hopefully your framework handles things like open 563 00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:57.800 telemetry, emitting and air handling, air handling and logging for you like Wolverine 564 00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:00.239 does. But if you're not, if you're doing that manually, where you're 565 00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:07.480 saying the developers have these rules of you shall always write this log statement, 566 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:12.360 you have to error explicitly handle errors this way that is going to add so 567 00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:16.039 much overhead that you will tend to not split features and those slices up, 568 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:21.079 and that will lead to bad code So what you're saying is in a plug 569 00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.960 for Wolvertine ra RA, which is cool. But what you're saying is because 570 00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:34.800 Wolverine doesn't inject its impede or impose you to redo your stuff. Like it 571 00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:39.199 sounds like you have air handlers around this stuff that you're calling, so you 572 00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:43.199 don't have to do that. You have logging around the stuff that you're calling. 573 00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.679 Yes, And you know, in another sense, Wolverine is that way 574 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.280 because of the experiences I've seen with enterprise systems. Yeah, the where they 575 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:59.039 had higher ceremony coding models, try trying to take care of things like like 576 00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:04.719 instrumentation, insecurity or was great examples you want at this point, you want 577 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.000 to open telemetry on everything these days, and it's really nice if it's just 578 00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:12.239 done for you, so developers don't have to think about it, right, 579 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:15.920 But you don't necessarily want to do that at the stack level or the slice 580 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.559 level. Rather, yes, or that. That's that's how I feel about. 581 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.599 Well, yeah, you used to have to roll this stuff, you 582 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.000 used to have to build those horizontal pieces. But I mean, I think 583 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:29.559 it's this is your to your point, It's like these are solved problems, 584 00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:35.679 just use them. Right, yes, and to go back to to here 585 00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:40.840 to really put this in perspective for younger folks. So I started my first 586 00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:45.239 serious software development it was Oracle PLC quel, but then it was Visual Basic. 587 00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:52.280 Yeah and yeah, so VB six didn't have stack traces. You know, 588 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:55.400 younger folks are horrified at this idea that they didn't exist. You would 589 00:46:55.440 --> 00:47:00.519 manually in every single method, every single fuck and you would have a little 590 00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:05.760 bit of on hair or something. You would manually build up a stack tress 591 00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:10.280 yourself in every single method to make this happen. This is a rule I 592 00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:15.880 enforced on my team because web programmers didn't write bugs, so why would we 593 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:23.440 need a snack but here that bloated the size of your code to the point 594 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:27.599 where you didn't want to break things up or sorry, Richard, maybe to 595 00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:31.880 go to your generation, Cobalt developers nice things. So we are at the 596 00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:38.599 same age. You know, if you've worked around Cobal developers. I used 597 00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:42.719 to say, I can look at code in any language and tell you that 598 00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:47.199 was a Cobal developer. So there was a very serious penalty, performance penalty 599 00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:52.679 for pulling out a separate method or a separate function. Yeah, so if 600 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:57.559 you look at Cobalt. Quote they were taught, Yeah, they were taught. 601 00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:01.679 They would have these massive pay up on page functions that were bigger than 602 00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:07.559 anything you've ever seen before because they had an incentive to do that way. 603 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:12.800 And just how awful that is to deal with. Yeah, I argued that 604 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:16.800 the object orientation won back in the eighties because it utilized the computing resources more 605 00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:22.519 effectively. At the time, that manipulating a given area of memory that you 606 00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:29.599 were calling an object was more resource efficient than the tendency of functional to do 607 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.440 copies of things in memory. Call for immutability. You know, we'd like 608 00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:38.159 immutability from making more reliable software, but it used more process or to use 609 00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:43.639 more memory, and at the time those were constraints. They aren't anymore. 610 00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:47.320 You know, today we have enough memory and compute that we could afford to 611 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:53.199 make more reliable software using these techniques than what was necessary in the eighties with 612 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:59.199 the single core memory restrictive machines we were using. It's not my fault, 613 00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:02.840 man happy, We're just trying to write. I had to do it that 614 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.400 way, that's all it was. Shall we talk about No, we're not 615 00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:09.559 kind of talk about it, but I might bring up the memory of on 616 00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:14.679 error resume next, which means, hey, if there's an error, I 617 00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:16.679 don't want to know about it, just keep going. It'll be fine. 618 00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:23.559 Everything fine. So I the first thing I ever did professionally, when I 619 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:30.239 was still a real engineer, I wrote an ASP classic system on access ninety 620 00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:35.039 seven from my engineering shop. It was great fun, but I just remember, 621 00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:37.559 hey, if you sprinkle this on error resume next thing everywhere. Thanks, 622 00:49:37.599 --> 00:49:40.559 just work, Thanks, just work. It's awesome. It's crazy. 623 00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:45.719 And then, of course, you know this first system, it became successful 624 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:51.559 enough that other people in my engineering group started using it until we start discovering 625 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.039 no values in the database. Where did this come from? I don't know. 626 00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:58.119 It seems to be working. Well, it's it's worse than that. 627 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:02.519 I I was running this on my just my compact desktop and I came in 628 00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:07.199 one morning on a Friday morning and this heard this terrible clicking sound where it 629 00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:10.360 was using my machine so hard it threw a head through the hard job. 630 00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.599 All right. But and so everybody's using this system now, and it's like 631 00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:19.360 Jeremy when you're gonna get it up, uh my boss at the time, 632 00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.760 or somebody from the real it people. Because I was a shadow it. 633 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:27.000 Okay, so Jeremy, where is this in source control and we'll help standard 634 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:30.639 up for you on on a real server. And I looked at bat him 635 00:50:30.679 --> 00:50:37.719 and I asked, what source control? Yeah? Yeah, well, and 636 00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:43.320 I feel like the power platform stuff that's that's hot at the moment is a 637 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.239 new generation of new developers. Yeah. You know, they're their domain experts 638 00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:49.960 who are trying to get things done and they're using these tools. And I 639 00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:53.800 see that same sort of reaction of you know, quote unquote real developers making 640 00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:58.840 fun of them. Oh, I'm like, that's not wise. But they 641 00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:00.480 have to learn all these things too, you know. Over on the on 642 00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:06.480 the run as side of my life, I'm talking to administrators about we're going 643 00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:09.039 to need to give these guys governance. Yeah, they give them some guardrails, 644 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.280 make sure they follow the permission rules. You know, the same thing 645 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:15.920 they at that that piece of software is be stufs. When more people are 646 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.639 using it, let's get it out of the personal account of that person and 647 00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:23.440 into an administered system. Like you know, that's the reality of solving things. 648 00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:28.199 But more importantly, it's just acknowledging we're never getting to the bottom of 649 00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:34.239 our to do list. Ever, like that's not a thing. So anything 650 00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:37.000 that'll take a few more things off the to do list is a good day. 651 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:43.239 Have you done any major updates to Martin speaking of you know, the 652 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:51.239 current state of your creator software. It's coming so oscar oscar Nex has mostly 653 00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:53.840 been dealing with things. It's been a ton of there's just bug fixing never 654 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:59.599 ends, you know, dealing with new dot net versions. What is coming 655 00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:04.679 up for Martin is, you know, I'm making We're making a big run 656 00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:12.280 at revamping the link provider. Link link Provider. It's just it's ultimate permutation. 657 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:16.559 Hell, so we're taking another stab at it. But also trying you 658 00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:22.519 know, we did have a very serious contribution come in sponsoring link improvements, 659 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:27.719 so I'm trying to trying to get that folks, those folks their improvements, 660 00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:30.920 trying to make it a lot faster after that. It is a lot of 661 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:36.400 it's actually gonna be a lot of integration with Martin and Wolverine. First class 662 00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:39.440 subscriptions, you know, the ability to stream data out of Martin, whether 663 00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:45.119 that's to cough or something else. And then the big thing which I probably 664 00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:49.519 talked about the last time I was here, but this is our our this 665 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:55.159 will be our paid a model of being able to distribute work across multiple nodes 666 00:52:55.159 --> 00:53:00.599 in a big cluster, whether it's multi tenancy, moving tenants around, but 667 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:06.920 finding ways to scale up Martin and specifically that a sinkers projection work you have 668 00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:12.400 to do with with event sourcing, to be able to spread that load over 669 00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:17.280 different nodes and maybe even dynamically bring things up and down elastically. That'll be 670 00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:22.639 our paid model. That that's something we hope to get started. Well, 671 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:25.840 we we've already put some work into it, but that's that's the subscriptions, 672 00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.440 scalability, link improvements, that's where we're going next. I think with Martin, 673 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:36.199 maybe next year we try to branch out. We might try to branch 674 00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:40.280 out into other non dot net platforms. Yeah, I don't know what that 675 00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:45.039 would mean yet, but that that's that's longer term. I find it fascinating 676 00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:47.920 that, you know, you have folks that come at you with, hey, 677 00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:52.559 we really want this feature. How do we support you to to get 678 00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:58.880 this feature done? And sometimes that's a monetary compensation. Sometimes yes, I 679 00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:02.960 mean that's that is interesting. And if anyone's listening, bar the Shingle is 680 00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:07.760 open, We're open for business. We've already done custom, custom feature work 681 00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:10.800 inside of Wolverine and Martin hit us up. Sure. Well, what I 682 00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:15.880 appreciate about this conversation and about you and your products is that your products have 683 00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:22.000 your experience and wisdom built into them, and that's very clear, So I 684 00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:28.159 have no problem recommending them. I appreciate them. Yeah, and thanks for 685 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:30.159 thanks for being with us. It's been great. Hey guys, thanks for 686 00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:34.599 having me yet again. All right, and we'll see you next time on 687 00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:59.519 dot net rocks. Dot net rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and 688 00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:04.960 produce by PLoP Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility 689 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:09.199 located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online 690 00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:15.320 at pwop dot com. Visit our website at dt n et r ocks dot 691 00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:21.679 com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to 692 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:25.480 the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand 693 00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:29.920 and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us 694 00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:35.760 in business. Now go write some code, see you next time. Ban