WEBVTT 1 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:25.399 New Eastern Europe podcasts. After the rigged presidential elections in Belarus and August ninth, 2 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:32.719 twenty twenty, the European Union stopped recognizing Alexander Lukashenko as the legal president 3 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:37.280 of the country. As Joseph Barrell, Head of European Diplomacy is set in 4 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:43.439 the European Parliament, the European Union has firmly rejected the fancified results of the 5 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:50.200 ninth of August presidential elections, and we have clearly said that Alexander Lukashenko lacks 6 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:56.719 any democratic residuus. We say about him the worst thing that one can say 7 00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:03.480 about someone who wants to go in the country. You lack democratic legitimacy. 8 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:18.719 For doing so, we don't recognize you as the legitimately president of businessman nation. 9 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:29.760 No recognition from the West does not give Alexander Lukashenko stepless nights. During 10 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:34.120 twenty six years of rule, he built a strong structure of power. Fat 11 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:57.280 Rostas to address the doctor politician Belarussian political scientist, doctor of political science Bardo 12 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:07.239 Rogue Centralizovan. This is an authoritarian consolidated regime, which means that this authoritarianism 13 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:13.159 has built on a very extensive but centralized state and political structures. There is 14 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:17.479 a presidential division, which means that all administrative functions are subordinated to the president 15 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:23.800 and he appoints plant directors, Chairman of regions appoints mayors, that is, 16 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:29.479 mayors of large and smaller cities. Besides all the so called elected structures that 17 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:34.800 is parliament, local councils, they are completely controlled and people who are to 18 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.759 end up in these chambers of parliament or local councils are not checked in detail. 19 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:43.960 People who are not trusted cannot appear there, let alone members of the 20 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:50.680 opposition. Apart from that, there are administrative and ideological structures ideological divisions, 21 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.599 as was the case in the Soviet Union, ideologists representatives of the Communist Party. 22 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.479 They were at all premises, in all institutions and at universities, and 23 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:09.759 they guarded the ideological loyalty. Besides, there were pro state and there are 24 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:16.039 pro state non governmental organizations such as the Belarusian Republican Youth Alliance, whose membership 25 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:23.599 actually is necessary or obligatory. Over five hundred thousand pupils or students belonged to 26 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:28.759 it. In addition, the system of counterfeiting was so developed that it was 27 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:31.840 enough to change or influence the result of voting or the result of how the 28 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:38.800 votes were counted. Neither the observers were able to keep an eye on how 29 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:43.280 the votes were counted, and even the representatives of civil society could not get 30 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:47.280 into the electoral commissions. I'm not even talking about the national level. Even 31 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:52.719 at the local level there were always selected people who signed or counted the votes 32 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:58.280 as needed. I am no longer talking about the secret services, about the 33 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:03.840 preventative activities of the case AB, which simply destroyed any activity. In fact, 34 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:10.039 the opposition as such and the NGOs were fragmented, demotivated and could not 35 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:15.639 influence the political process in any way. So in general, this political structure, 36 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.600 if it was strictly about politics and the exercise of power, it could 37 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:24.680 largely be described as semi totalitarian. So no one could just walk into this 38 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:28.120 structure. They were supposed to be loyal to this person and carry out all 39 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:34.839 orders. So no one could just walk into this structure. They were supposed 40 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:39.759 to be loyal to this person and carry out all orders. You checked the 41 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:44.319 structure to some extent even during the crisis, as we can see, regardless 42 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:47.959 of such a strong protest, social opposition. This structure still exists, which 43 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:54.079 means it has not collapsed. Although there were indicators that something was happening there, 44 00:04:54.199 --> 00:05:00.040 that people were leaving the administration, secret services and these organizations protests, 45 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.720 but we still see that the system itself is soldiering on. It is still 46 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:08.959 very much mobilized. He carried out repression on a large scale and to a 47 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:13.040 large extent. In this repression, this process of terror actually involved quite a 48 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.279 few people who are simply ready to serve this system to the very end. 49 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:33.560 Fiftystem. The system is still running, but there are exceptions and the breaches. 50 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:40.360 And Riastapovic was an officer an employee of the so called power ministries. 51 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:56.120 He decided that he could no longer be a part of the repression mechanism. 52 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:59.519 I worked in the structure of the Ministry of the Interior for ten years. 53 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:03.360 For two thousand and fifteen or two August twenty twenty, I was a senior 54 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:14.879 investigator in Minsk. Generally I worked with heavy crimes such as beatings, murders 55 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.920 and raps. Everyone has their own motivation. For someone it is a life 56 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:24.240 situation and a chance. For someone else it is a family tradition and for 57 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:33.399 yet another person. Work in the militia or an investigatives committee is a vocation. 58 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:39.600 Russian films and series, the heroization and romanticization of the image of a 59 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:44.519 policemen are also of great importance. I saw it very often in girls who 60 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:46.560 came to work for us on the county. They had been striving for it 61 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:51.079 all their lives. They started working with great enthusiasm, and you could see 62 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:56.879 the enthusiasm in their eyes. But after a short time this enthusiasm quickly faded. 63 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:00.439 It's not like in the movies the criminal. However, as a boggy 64 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:12.759 quagmire. Often it is also a chance for people with an education in humanities, 65 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:16.199 those who graduated, for example, in law. Everyone knows that lawyers 66 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:21.240 or notaries have average earnings. Working in the power structures gives them that much 67 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:26.240 more so, education really means a lot. As for arm on, the 68 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:30.439 situation is different. People who have no idea for themselves often go to it. 69 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:33.720 If someone understands that he is basically a murderer and a bone breaker, 70 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:38.399 I have two options, either to work in the field and spread the manure 71 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.920 with a pitchfork in the field, or to enter official structures and mock people 72 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.800 on the streets at the same time and regularly receiving a salary and living in 73 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:53.319 the city not in the countryside. Of course, we cannot say that only 74 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:58.439 fools. Some people without a life chance work this is overkilled. Please remember 75 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.120 that the army is a bublice, and if a young man gets a taste 76 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.680 for it and accept such a lifestyle, then at the end of his service, 77 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:09.240 I can get an offer in the army and stay in similar structures. 78 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.519 I'm not saying that they are just bad people. Often it can be simply 79 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.839 attractive to someone. It may be in line with their nature, physical development 80 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:22.639 and brotherhood. After compulsory military service, you are fit, you know how 81 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.759 to handle weapons, and here they offer you a stable job where you really 82 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.120 have to do what you can. That is why various special units recruit their 83 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.360 officers and officers from amongst such young people in the army. It is often 84 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:39.919 the case that someone just likes it as a sport. There's nothing wrong with 85 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:43.559 it. After all, some of these people also go to anti terrorist formations 86 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:50.320 and really want a defender state and nation against various threats. Therefore, the 87 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:56.039 situation is not black and white. Unfortunately, what the authorities are doing now 88 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:00.919 is also a shame for the secret services themselves. This destroy and disgraces the 89 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.120 motivations and experience that are really important for every society to work in the services, 90 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.559 that is, special units, especially for people who gain this experience in 91 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:18.960 combat conditions in different parts of the world. The situation in terms of earnings 92 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.639 in the power structures is similar, but certain requirements must be met in different 93 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:28.240 units. In the committee it is intellectual and mental predispositions that are acquired over 94 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:33.399 a long time, while in onmon and special groups it is physical preparation. 95 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.519 You have to take into account the potential risk to your health. This is 96 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:43.519 a life threatening job. Sometimes onmon men have a slightly higher salary, but 97 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:48.399 only a little Such an average salary is about one thousand rubles. I earned 98 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:52.919 a maximum of one thousand, four hundred, but only after ten years of 99 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.840 work experience. Of course, there are also benefits in the form of, 100 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:01.240 for example, an apartment allowance if you work in an another city. In 101 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.399 my case, a senior investigator who works with heavy crime is around six hundred 102 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.720 dollars in Belarus. It is an average salary, not too much but not 103 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:16.320 too little. Factory workers sometimes get similar wages, sometimes more for mince. 104 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:20.519 However, it is not remarkably. Hid in a store, you can earn 105 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:24.039 about one thousand, two hundred roubles. Not all investigators get that much, 106 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:30.799 however, I can talk about what only concerns the investigative committee. The workload 107 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:35.399 has increased significantly, and the pressure from the leadership by political affairs has also 108 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:39.399 increased. I have already mentioned stress. Therefore, much more work was done 109 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:43.799 there, but the salary was not raised. As for the armond men, 110 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:48.000 I haven't had a chance to talk to any of them recently. Therefore I 111 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:52.279 cannot confirm that their salaries have increased. In two thousand and ten, I 112 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.559 was seventeen years old and I was still under age, but adult fellow trainees 113 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:01.840 were with the officers on protest actions only as meals, and they spent all 114 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:07.000 the time on buses. The older students, on the other hand, between 115 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.679 the second and the fifth year, were formerly already rank and file officers. 116 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.639 They pacified their actions. I know about broken noses and ribs. They were 117 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.279 in the front line of fire, which means that they got baptized during their 118 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:24.360 studies. As a minor, we were not allowed to participate in the actions 119 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.080 by law. I remember when we were gathered in the halls and a Belorussian 120 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:31.759 television and propaganda about what was happening in Mince was playing all the time. 121 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.559 Then things went quiet for a bit. Basically, no one explains the situation 122 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:41.679 to you. During your studies. Access to information is really limited only Belorussian 123 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:46.519 television, propaganda and indoctrination. But at this age young boys are not interested 124 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.759 in politics, but in other matters. The elections in twenty fifteen years, 125 00:11:50.759 --> 00:12:07.919 you remember, were relatively quiet. If we go back to the beginning of 126 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:11.679 the year, everyone thought it was going to be quiet. Nothing extraordinary will 127 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:16.080 happen. It'll be like twenty fifteen. Once these inadequate moves and government mistakes 128 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.679 regarding the COVID crisis appeared, we read that something could happen, but that 129 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.200 it would be like what is happening now. No one could imagine that. 130 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.960 When new candidates started to appear, I started to hope for some change. 131 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.360 I cannot vouch for the entire system. I'm speaking for myself. When the 132 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:41.159 arrests of alternative candidates started, all this social mobilization, those kilometers long queues 133 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:45.039 to sign the list of one of the candidates. People began to understand that 134 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.519 something was going to happen. There was also a fear that it would be 135 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.320 not as quiet as for example, five years ago, when the servicemen came 136 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:58.159 together for Ziharalski's candidacy, we knew that blood could be spilled. Intensive preparations 137 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.600 took about four months before the elect We assumed that there would be a quick 138 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:07.600 pacification, demonstrations would be quickly suppressed, and by mid August everything will calm 139 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:09.720 down, but that it will be as we can see now. No one 140 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:18.759 assumed that at all. The problem began after brutal pacifications when people were not 141 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.240 only beaten but also tortured and injured. One thing, when a stunt grenade 142 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.120 is thrown over the demonstrators, everyone will get scared, people will scatter, 143 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.519 and that's it. Another thing is when grenades are thrown into the crowd and 144 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:37.799 people are chased court and beaten with truncheons. When a frightened demonstrator is caught 145 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:46.519 in a dark alley and tortured by five brutes from the service, then they 146 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.240 started shooting at the crowd, perhaps not with live ammunition, but only at 147 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:56.399 the very beginning. There were over one thousand injured civilians in minced until August 148 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:01.039 sixteenth. I formerly walked in the investigative committee. Then I started showing aggression. 149 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:07.399 Such internal aggression absolute internal intolerance to the behavior of the authorities and other 150 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:16.039 services when tormenting peaceful demonstrators. In addition to such normal human disagreement with brutal 151 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:20.120 methods, there is shame and disapproval as the power structures that are there to 152 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.720 defend the nation begin to disgrace themselves. When the authority of your organization drops 153 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:30.559 at an exponential rate, when the actions of specific individuals disgrace the name and 154 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.440 the entire structure in which you work, then you don't want to deal with 155 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:41.960 that. After the brutal passification stopped a bit after August thirteenth, the authorities 156 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:45.360 also took care of us, that is, the brains from the services. 157 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.279 Attempts were made to conceal evidence of Suloviki crimes, delete recordings of beatings, 158 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.440 and so on and so on. When I went to their action to write 159 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.600 down the protocols, I saw a full picture of the abuses committed. Then 160 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.879 I realized that if I stayed there, the system would suck me up for 161 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.519 good. It wasn't just about losing authority, but knowing that being inside the 162 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:09.360 system, I kind of contributed to it all. I didn't want to do 163 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:16.879 this, and I made a decision. Enough, guys, I'm leaving. 164 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:20.200 Even when you can clearly see that something is wrong, some people need more 165 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.039 time to see the full picture. There will be more and more disagreements among 166 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:28.519 the officers. I think a new wave of redundancies will begin. People have 167 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:33.399 already started to leave. I have prepared a report on all the breaches and 168 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.879 abuses that I have come across. The report was very thorough and detailed, 169 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.200 with a list of officials related to the violations. So I formerly did what 170 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.600 the law requires of me, but of course I understood what it could mean 171 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.879 for me. I was curious about the reaction of the management of various departments 172 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:58.919 to my report. On August sixteenth, I resigned naturally. I understood that 173 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.480 you can't just let everyone go after that. Later went to Moscow. Literally 174 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.960 the next day. I found out that the leadership of the ministry was angry 175 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.360 and that I was wanted by the Belarussian services. Later, the persecution of 176 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:17.200 the Russian services began because ours must have issued an arrest warrant. I try 177 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.080 to leave Russia, but I have stopped by non Russian services that were already 178 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:26.120 in contact with the Belarusian ones. During my extradition to Belarus, I managed 179 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.759 to lose the tale of our secret services and secretly escaped through fields and forests 180 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:40.759 into Poland. I managed to lose the tale of our secret services and secretly 181 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:48.120 escaped through fields and forests to Poland. There are people who are still working 182 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:51.440 in the structures. Being in the power ministries you get soaked in it, 183 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:55.720 and after you leave it's very hard to find any desired job outside the structures. 184 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.519 There is also fear because we are served by former employees, and we 185 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.759 are also persecuted, especially if someone marks their departure just like me, but 186 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:08.039 the motivations are different. Let us not judge the entire system through the prism 187 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:11.960 of a dozen or so degenerates, although it must be admitted that because of 188 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:17.880 them, the entire Belarusian services lost their authority. However, more and more 189 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:22.359 officers understand that even when they are faithful and remain their service, they in 190 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.799 a way contribute to all the lawlessness, and therefore they leave. The situation 191 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:32.799 is tragic because really experienced officers leave who have some honor, can think and 192 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:38.119 have a chance for another job. Only half wits are left who are capable 193 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:44.079 of beating and punishing citizens. The atmosphere has changed a lot. There are 194 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:48.119 a lot of dissatisfied people inside the services. The tension is in the air. 195 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.039 Maybe also because you can't trust anyone. Even when they go to the 196 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.599 smoking room. People think about what, how and with whom they talk. 197 00:17:56.480 --> 00:18:00.200 Someone can screen you. They can only fire you, but it could end 198 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.599 up being worse. You can lose everything. There is also an element of 199 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:08.480 revenge. We know that officers, even these brutes who later refuse to obey 200 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:12.599 orders, are also arrested, but they are often treated much worse than civilian 201 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:22.200 demonstrators because the power structures are traitors, and traitors are not forgiven. There 202 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:26.319 is also a social and environmental problem. Suppose there is a unit of three 203 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:30.319 thousand officers for the whole country. There are units within such a unit that 204 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:34.240 brutally beaten torture demonstrators. There are let's say five hundred, but they dishonor 205 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:40.559 the entire unit. Everyone understands that after the change of power, such an 206 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.440 individual will have a reputation as a torturer, and no one will mention people 207 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:48.920 who performs their work normally and reliably. You will have to prove your innocence. 208 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.640 And now such an internal rat race begins when former colleagues begin to silently 209 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:57.920 gather various pieces of evidence on each other. Now there's a huge division inside. 210 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.440 Some deal with civil and administrative matters, others with what we see in 211 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.039 the streets, and now those administrative ones are gathering evidence for their innocence. 212 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:22.160 Was the repression and brutality of the authorities sparked an unrest not only among some 213 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.920 of the officers of the services suppressing the demonstrators, some journalists on which the 214 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:37.759 propaganda mechanism is based also protested. As the journalist Hannelubakova says, there's a 215 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.640 choice of strike. I was in Minsk when the strikes of journalists government media, 216 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.680 in other words, government television started, and when I saw the strikes, 217 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.640 I talked to journalists who were working who had to leave because they were 218 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:55.160 either fined or they just didn't see the possibility of saying in this work. 219 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:57.880 They also said that they had a lot of questions for each other. Before 220 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.960 the there had never been such a level of repression. Never had there been 221 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:08.079 such a level of brutality before, and only now they felt that they could 222 00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:14.480 no longer reconcile themselves to the situation. They could no longer agree to this 223 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.599 kind of compromise, and they left or were fired. They just joined the 224 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:25.359 strike. However, now the situation is stabilized a bit because the media works 225 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:29.960 with the help of Russian journalists and workers from Russian general or the strike has 226 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:36.039 been suppressed. However, this idea that images propagated by government media and television 227 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.880 will divide the nation, this is simply a lie, which of course all 228 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:45.680 happened before. But it's all the more cynical because people died, people were 229 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.559 tortured, people were severely beaten, as if it happened all the time. 230 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.279 In my opinion, the people who have remained in their positions, who were 231 00:20:55.319 --> 00:21:00.680 still participating in this propaganda, in my opinion, are doing it consciously, 232 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:11.720 and that's what makes it all the more cynical. Despite the resignation of individual 233 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:18.759 officers, journalists or officials associated with the government, the regime continues. The 234 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:25.799 most important key positions are occupied by people who are absolutely faithful to Alexander Lukashenko, 235 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:36.359 including his sons, The family and its surroundings play a fairly important role. 236 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:40.519 First, his elder son, Victor is the Deputy Secretary of the National 237 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:45.920 Security Council. Here is Lukashenka's security advisor. He actually controls and watches over 238 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.880 all these power structures. He also understands that if the Lukashenka clan loses power, 239 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:57.279 he's in for a hard time. Besides the whole higher political structure, 240 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:03.119 First of all, the representatives of the power structures are completely devoted to Lukashenka 241 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.200 because they have both economic and political preferences, and so on and so forth. 242 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.839 My own the second son, Dmitri Lukashenka, is the head of the 243 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:15.039 State Gaming Commission, the lottery and so on, things that are also related 244 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:21.200 to money for money laundering. Yes, there is also a younger son, 245 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:26.200 Nikolai, whom Lukashenka always drags with him everywhere, and even with a Clashnakoff 246 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:29.759 machine gun. He was running down the street with his father down the Prespiet. 247 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.279 Deep down, maybe not even deep down, Lukashenka would like Nikolai to 248 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:42.799 become his heir, prepare him for this role. Politologist Pavo Ulsov explains what 249 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:49.599 drives people who support or at least function in the system created by Alexander Lukashenko. 250 00:22:53.240 --> 00:23:02.440 Absolutely. First, there is appsolutely no rational understanding of what is happening. 251 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:07.240 I call it a consciousness skew. So people just believe that what Lukashenka 252 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.440 is doing is correct. The irrationalism is simply unconvincing. No facts about the 253 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.960 forgery, about the repression, about the killings. It does not affect these 254 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:23.599 people. They believe that those who come out to protest are either drug addicts 255 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:29.440 or some marginalized people bribed by the West, That the West wants to destabilize 256 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.039 the situation, that Lukashenka is defending the state, that Lukashenka was elected by 257 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.519 the majority, that this is all manipulation, and so on and so forth. 258 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:45.480 Yes, and this counts for most people, not only in the state 259 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:52.880 division, not only in state structures, but also among ordinary citizens. Secondly, 260 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:56.359 what we have is modern slavery. This means that people have loans, 261 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.400 they receive state preferences, some relief, They defend their own good because this 262 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:04.839 system has created for them at least good, comfortable living conditions. And when 263 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:08.400 they have a choice of political morality or political good, social good, and 264 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:14.359 their own good. They obviously choose their own good because they have served this 265 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:22.960 system sporadically and faithfully during all these years. Third, how to put it 266 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:27.000 as a kind of moral corruption. Judges, policemen, prosecutors, they have 267 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:33.599 already participated in political crimes, that is, forgery, in incorrect political sentences 268 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:40.839 against the opposition during these twenty six years. Most of the citizens do not 269 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.359 know it. For example, I meet such slogans quite often, how is 270 00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:47.160 it possible, after all, where it comes from, this rape, these 271 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.880 falsehoods? I answer, well, it was for twenty six years. The 272 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:53.680 point is, most of the society that is protesting now has woken up. 273 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:57.519 The society of ninety four fell into a lethargy, and for them, this 274 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:02.720 tradition and the historical that took place during all these twenty six years simply do 275 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:08.839 not exist. They do not know about the killed representatives of the opposition in 276 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.400 ninety nine, nor do they know about the repressions. They do not know 277 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:17.400 that people have been imprisoned for several years for their political views, that they 278 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:21.279 have been tortured, that they have been fired. And when you talk about 279 00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:26.039 it with those citizens who are now protesting against Lukashenka. They say impossible. 280 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:30.279 I did not know about it. I am not interested in it. People 281 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.480 don't know, people don't understand. They didn't have their own experience, they 282 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:38.319 didn't confront the system. Suddenly they were surprised that the system is so brutal. 283 00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:44.680 They are amazed that this system is so brutal, although this brutality has 284 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:49.480 always been present, has always existed, and it is in this system that 285 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:56.240 the class that participated in the forgery and repression has already hardened. But this 286 00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.160 is quite numerous people see them as Nazis or as communists who are in post 287 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.680 or Romania, who understand that if Lukashenka lost power, a very unpleasant future 288 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:21.079 awaits Bardo Bardo. The constant protests, but also the complicated international situation means 289 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:25.880 that the regime of Alexander Lukashenko will have to change. As sent by Pyotr 290 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:40.599 Rotkovsky, director of the Bilarussian Institute of Strategic Studies, probable the regime will 291 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:45.079 try to imitate social dialogue and work towards a constitutional reform that is to take 292 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:49.960 place towards differentiation, greater differentiation in the competencies of the president Parliament, local 293 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.920 authorities and the government. Here, in a sense, the reform will take 294 00:26:53.920 --> 00:27:00.400 place towards democratization. The authorities will want it to be an imitation of democratization. 295 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.519 While any imitation may get out of hand, it often happens that it 296 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:08.319 gets out of control. As for the protest movement, there is so far 297 00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:15.559 an extraordinarily strong determination to manage Lukashenka's dismissal to punish those responsible for violence against 298 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.519 peaceful protesters. On the other hand, some will also try to act in 299 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:22.680 this field, which will be allowed by the authorities. Many criticize this, 300 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.759 but I also think it is not a bad idea. It is not a 301 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:33.319 bad tactic entering their field in order to achieve your goals by using the opportunities 302 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:51.440 that are there to be offered. Podcasts are produced by Free Range Productions.