American Hostage is an Amazon Original and Criminal Content production. This podcast is based
on a true story of a hostage crisis that took place in Indianapolis in nineteen
seventy seven. Listener discretion is advised. Episode two, The Man with the
Microphone Radio indian A w I DCCI. Everybody get out of his way in
the office of Good Game. America was built on values, on ideas and
ideals, truth, liberty, and apple pie. But somewhere by the people
for the people became twisted by the media that the noblest institution which was meant
to connect us and unite us as a nation. But it was a circus,
of course, and you either watched it with fascination or you became part
of it. Waitnute, what the hell do you mean You've already talked to
him. You've been calling us NonStop for the past hour. Yeah, Fred,
because he's a psychopath, and now you've engaged directly with us. Jim,
he wants me to interview him, Fred, yep, not Now.
I just wanted to tell Fred that Leo Malone's on his way to the station,
right, thank you. How much time before we have to get back
to him? He said? We have an hour to tell him our decision.
I can't believe you took that call. Well, I'm sorry, Jim.
What's done is done. You don't have any idea what you've done.
What was I supposed to do? Jim? What were you supposed to do?
Are you asking for a list of ethical responses to this Christ? Because
I can assure you calling Tony Kuritzus wouldn't make my top fucking damn. Why
are we calling Tony Curitzus? We aren't. Fred already did for a quote.
No, not for a quote. He wants to put him on the
air. He's demanding to be put on the air. Why does he want
us? He's a fan. I don't know. No, I got us
an in with this fan? Are full of shit? Fred? Have you
seen this guy in action? Have you have you heard him speak in public?
Doesn't trust the system, but he needs an outlet. That outlet is
us, Fred. Every other word he speaks is fucker shit. Look you
see this? You get the fuck away from me, motherfucker? Are you
looking for an opening in the res No opening? You don't get me?
Which has been playing it on a loop all day? Wish is getting away
with it? Then why can't we know I talked to Dale Simpson at WISH
earlier. They aren't getting away with it. Take a good look at that
contraption around Dick Hall's neck. Fred, you don't build a death machine for
a negotiation. And we're talking like Dick Hall is already dead. Dick Hall
is dead. Oh he isn't. His brains haven't left the building yet,
but they're on their way. I have been at WIBC for twenty years.
Jim, here we go a spingle. One of your predecessors would have sat
on this. All right, Fred, I'm gonna be perfectly blunt. Speaking
directly to the hostage taker is a disaster of epic proportion. Look, we
can sit around and debate the ethics of what I did, or we can
get to the business of saving a man's life. As the station manager.
The choice is yours. Oh he can't do it live. The compromise is
we record it now, push it to the eleventh slot. I don't see
trigger happy Tony reacting well to getting the graveyard shift. He's lucky we're entertaining
any of this at all. He's lucky. Look Sally's right. I don't
want to do anything that's going to piss him off. He wants it live.
I think we should give it to You can't negotiate with this guy,
Fred, all right, let's go over the scenarios. All right. Number
one, he kills him on the air. Okay, we'll be shut down,
liable on numerous levels. All right. Number two. Number two turns
out to be a pleasant guy, listens to reason, he lets the hostage
go. Everybody wins. Number three, Number three, he doesn't kill him,
but he doesn't let him go. Then what does Fred Heckman just keep
waiting by the phone for hours, for days. This is the job,
that's the contract we meet. You're making yourself the story, Fred, Jim.
I'm trying to do the right thing. Here we are Dick Hall's best
shot at survival. All right, now we're here, Fred, you're at
the station. And let's be clear, you're skipping a lot more than just
an anniversary. This could be hours, this could be days. What are
you gonna tell Barbara? I dope, you can call her from my phone.
You got your story, Fred, I'm just not sure you understand the
price. Okay, books, we got an update. Hey, hey,
now listening up. Heckman Resident honey, it's me really, yeah, sweetheart,
there's um, it's been a development in that Tony curtsis ordeal M.
Did he shoot him? No, no, he didn't shoot him. He
he called the office. He called the office and someone picked that phone up.
Well, yeah, someone had to pick it up. Well picked it
up for him. You know. It turns out he's a listener, loyal
listener, and he wants me to interview him. You can't go down there,
the news says he's got his apartment building wire. No no, no,
no no no. I wouldn't go down there. I'd do it from
here, but they you know, this is where they need me, and
there's no way of knowing for How long are you upset? I don't think
you know what you're getting yourself into. Fred, Oh my god, you're
not wrong. There is there anybody else? It doesn't look like it.
I see. Well, Um, you know I can't be upset. You
know I'll make it up to you. Yeah. We're always making up the
time we've got by the time we don't. Are you coming home as soon
as I can, be careful? Fred? I love you, honey,
I love you too. Red on the loans here, okay, thank you,
Salad. He doesn't this might not be a little friend that correct wet
from friends and relative throwing your run and right point gentlemen, Fred, this
is Detective Leo Malone. Right. We spoke on the phone, Detective Balloon.
Fred. Just call me Leo please. Leo was the first one on
the scene this morning. Hell but think I tell you both what, I've
never seen anything like it. Guys, we need to jump right into it.
Leo. You know about the call, right right? Yeah? So
what do we need to be doing to do this straight? You know,
if I'm being honest, I wouldn't entertain this because it's only gonna bite us
in the ass. Well, Leo, we all already said we'd get back
to him within the hour. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't have done that.
Well we did, yeah, Fred did? So is there another move
here? I'm sorry, we got about fifteen minutes left to call. What
does he want, Leo? Well, here's what we know from Dick Hall's
father Bronson. Apparently, Dick and Bronson had been working with Tony for a
few years now and had loaned him some money to fix up a plot of
land that Tony was going to try and turn into a strip mall. Tony
couldn't. The Halls needed their money back, Tony didn't have it, and
here we are. Well that seems pretty cutting dry. Yeah. You tell
all of that to Tony and he goes off saying it's not the whole story
and they were cheating them the whole time, but he won't give us anything
new or different. Well, my understanding is that this is the stuff that
Tony Woods aired out in the interview. Well, let me stop you right
there, Fred, there is no understanding Tony kuritzs. I've been talking to
him through walls and following them around in a blizzard since eight this morning.
His mouth never stops moving and not a single coherent word comes out. So
don't go in making any kind of assumptions because they're not going to play.
I mean, the more I think about it, the more nervous I get.
Leo, we're at your discretion on this. You're the expert. I'm
no expert. I've never encountered anything like this. Where is Dick's father on
vacation in Florida lucked out? It's going to be him walking around with a
shotgun tied to his neck. Do you think Tony likes you? Does he
like me? Yeah? Can you get a read on how he feels about
you and the police? He likes me as far as I haven't fucked it
all up. I mean, he keeps saying how much respect he has for
cops and then he calls a sleepy eyed motherfucker's which I guess is anti Semitic
or something. All right, what do we not need to be saying to
him? What have you talked about that set him off? Oh, don't
say anything about his father? Blows up when you talk about his father.
Okay, Well, what else does he have? Any family he does like
or anyone we could talk to. We're flying his brother, Stephen in from
Brown County right now? Does he like his brother? I guess we're gonna
find out. Leo, tell it to us straight. Should we do this?
I think Dick Halls as good as dead, So what could it hurt?
Okay, Jim, I guess we should figure out the logistics of that
interview. You need to you need to convince him that we can't do it
live. Give us an hour or two to edit it. We can shave
off some of the language, maybe keep our listeners running into the Hills.
God forbid he doesn't blow Dick's head off in the middle of it all.
Okay, Leo, will you stay in the room with Fred. We'd appreciate
your insight. Sure I can do that. I had Jane set everything up
for you in the studio. Fred. It's uh, it's good to go.
Okay, Uh, all right, I'll we'll get to it. You
got it, Fred, Yes, sir, I got it. Thank you.
Leo. Hello, Tony, it's Fred Heckman. Tell you what.
I'm glad you called. I'm sorry, can't play cars for shit. I
don't know if he's losing. I can't hear you too well, I said,
I'm glad you call because Dick can't play cards for shit. I don't
know if he's losing on purpose or not, but I hope so, because
I don't see how you can be so shit at cards. Otherwise are you
playing cards? So things are going okay, They're as good as they can
be with all of this, mister Hickman, I still have to talk to
Dick and cops all day. And I tell you what, I got a
lot of respect for cops, but these wonder dumby shit. They yeah,
they're little jos silly, but they don't say shit. Well, I think
they do want to help those pigs. Just get me hopping mad. Now
we're going to do this interview, mister Hickman. I got it all written
out. Everything I want to say, everything I need to say. I
got it right here, right here, in my pocket, right here.
Well, Tony, I did. I did talk to my guys here at
the station about your request, yep, and they think it's okay and they've
given us the go ahead. But we do have to talk a bit about
just how it's all going to happen. Hey, Hey, I can tell
that you're gonna ask me all the questions I want you to ask me,
and I'm gonna answer them. Well, what we talked about over here was
doing the interview now and then playing at tonight at eleven, so you'll get
the last broadcast of the night, Tony, Tony. You there. No,
that doesn't fly. Well, it's a good slot, I mean that
doesn't fly. God damn it. Now, I told you that I don't
like to repeat myself, mister Heckman, and you're gonna make me repeat hold
on there too. Number one. I said I wanted my interview live live.
Do you understand what that means? I know you understand what that means,
So why the fun do I have to ask that stupid question? Tony,
Let's just take a step while I'm not doing an eleven o'clock time slot,
because the time isn't worth a hooker's take. It's a goddamn Tuesday night
and everyone I know goes to sleep at ten pm. This is a working
town and no nonsense town, and there isn't anybody up at eleven pm doing
anything. Have them talking out? Okay, now, Tony, hang on,
hang on, just hang on. I understand your concern about the about
the time slot. Now can you can you talk to me about about why
you think it needs to be live? Because I know you can edit that
shit and make me say anything. I know I can say the whole goddamn
English language and you'll cut it and spice it together and make me sound like
a goddamn nut job. I know you can make it so that I'll say,
I'm gonna kill this fucker. And what they're here is, I'm sorry,
I'm just an old crazy man. But I'm not crazy, and I'm
not old. I'm forty four, fucking years young, and I broke my
back to get here and make something for myself in this country. Tony,
Look, we simply don't have the technology to do what you're you're saying.
I mean, we like to think we're the best at what we do,
but we're still a humble little station. We're not. We're not the movies.
Get them to talk about that. Do you like movies? Tony?
What last movie I saw in the theater? It was a Goldfinger and it
was the worst thing I ever seen in my life. You don't like James
Bond, Tony. He can't keep his goddamn shirt on to save his life.
Okay, well what do you What is it you like then, Tony?
Did do you like John Wayne? No? I do not like John
Wayne movies. Put in all that effort to dry and make me like someone
who can't shoot straight. It looks like shit on a horse. I don't
understand it. Well, now you know there's a new James Bond. Now
we see what. Now there's a new James Bond, A new actor plays
him. Does he take his shirt off sometimes? Then I don't give a
shit. Okay, Okay, so you don't like James Bond and you don't
like John Wayne. No, I don't, But my father liked John Wayne.
Oh is that right? Well, what do you like? He took
me to see The Searchers four times in theaters. Most boring fucking thing ever
seen in my life. And I was twenty three or twenty four at a
time. But he just can't leave me the fuck alone. He was a
controlling, desperate, sad piece of shit. You ever seen in The Searchers
from this? Yeah, yeah, I've seen it. What did you think?
Well, honestly, I don't remember much of it. That's because it's
shit. He didn't have any taste in anything. He knew how to break
my back and bust my ass, and that's the only thing he was good
at. Well, okay, Tony, you know what, Why don't we
talk about about the interview again? I didn't mean to get you off.
Of course, I want it live and I want people to hear it.
Fred two things to request. I don't see what's so hard about that?
Well, Tony, honestly, we think there might be an issue with the
language if we agree to do this live. What do you mean, Well,
you've got a very colorful vocabulary to me. I'm sorry about that.
Well, it's okay, but we we can't put those kind of words out
there. You can understand, well, I won't say them then, okay,
Tony, but we wouldn't. We wouldn't want you to feel inhibited.
He did, well, I wouldn't feeling inhibited. I won't say any stupid
shit. I understand that there's going to be kids listening. I want to
protect kids too. I want to protect their innocence and their sensibilities. It's
important that they listen because I feel bad about this. But I'm mad and
I deserve to be mad. And this is the thing. Why don't you
tell me just what this is? These people at an Astor House and fuck
the Hall Corporation, they played god and lost. I'm a man that's fighting
for everything out owned. Sir. Do you have a wife and family,
fred? I sure do, Tony. How many kids you got we have
five? How old are they Fred? Well, they range an age between
twelve and twenty eight. Do you love them? You better believe I do.
Let's say somebody set you up and they said, we're gonna take your
car, we're gonna take your house, we're gonna take your wife, and
we're gonna take your children and then they're gonna laugh at you. Fred,
would you be ready to kill Heckman? Well, i'd be offering that,
sir. Would you be ready to kill Heckman? I don't know if i'd
be ready, But don't lie. Don't lie? Why would you lie?
You kill in a minute. They have ruined my life. But I'm a
mean motherfucker baby in the ant can intimidate me, they ain't cann't humiliate me,
Tony, Tony, let's just look. I want to get your side
on all of this, Okay, can I get your side? I'm gonna
tell you what, and I'm gonna tell you right now. Fred, you
talk to wherever you need to talk to you over there. But I want
this interview and I want it my way, and that means I want it
live and I want it heard now. I don't know who you have to
talk to you over there and make that happen, But you make it happen,
or dick slash me. You will be two slugsters, two fronteeth.
Calm him down right now? Who's that? Fred? Who's that? Just
seeing your name right now? That was my producer, Tony. He just
poked in his head to tell me my wife's calling. No, she know
you're talking to me, Yes, she does. What does she think about
that? Well, to be honest with you, Tony, she wishes it
weren't happening tonight. It's our anniversary. Oh is that right? Yes,
sir, that is right. Well I didn't know that. That's that's okay,
Tony. No, No, it's not okay, it's not okay.
Maybe I would. I would have given it another shot and another day if
i'd known. I never been married, mister Rickman, and I never gone
steady. But I know that a woman's a beautiful thing that you have to
be loyal to. I'm sorry about that, Fred. Well, that's that's
that's that's okay, Tony. We we've all got something going on, Yes,
sir, we do, Tony. Let me ask you what's was I
always a part of your plan here? Yes, sir, you're the best
in the business, Fred, just like I'm the best in the business.
And I tell you what, I've been here and all these reports all day,
and every one of them calls me crazy, every one of them calls
me mentally ill. And that's the biggest live ever heard in my life.
I have every single one of my faculties, and I have each one sharp
as attack. I am not insane. I do not need psychological probing,
and I do not need to be counseled for my course of action. I
am a man, a band madness hell, who had everything taken away from
me, and I am fighting. You say don't know when to fight.
I know how to fight. I know how to rig up a shotgun,
and I know how to rig up a bomb. And I'll say it right
now, this was a premeditated act. I'll say that because I know,
I know, I got cops right outside who keep telling me I can get
out of this if I plead insanity and I am not. All right,
Tony, all right, I believe you. I believe you. I think
you are well aware of what you're doing. That's right, Okay, then,
Tony, if I can, if I can have a little more time,
I can, I can try and do some more negotiating for you on
on doing the interview live. Well, I appreciate that. Fred. Can
I talk to Dick real quick? Yep, Yes, sir, it's Fred,
mister Heckman, it's Dick Hole, Yes, sir. I just wanted
to let you know we're here and we're doing everything we can and it's all
gonna work out. Will you call my wife for me, mister Heckman,
I certainly can do that. What would you like me to say? Just
tell her that I love her? Yeah, yeah, I can do that,
Dick, Thank you, sir. You call me soon. Fred,
don't leave me waiting now you're here. We won't Tony. He's a sick
son of a bitch, an't he. I'm gonna go talk to Jim.
How do you feel about it? I don't feel good, Leo, I
do not feel good. Next time on American Hostage. Yeah about the enter
a building? Why I would boud if you want to have this conversation like
men, you've got to bring me to your level. I want them to
say they feeded me. What we love is if you could talk with us
after you release mister Hall. Now you're respecting to your listener. You're going
to work with these creeds. Oh God give them peace? What are you
praying for? My wife? My kids? Do what you forgot about yourself?
American Hostage is an Amazon original and Criminal Content production written by C.
D. Carpenter, directed by Sean Christiansen, produced by Adam Volerich and Brendan
Hubbard. Executive produced by John Hamm, Sean Christiansen and Gabriel Mason, starring
John Hamm, Carla Gugino, Joe Perino, Dylan Baker, and Becky Anne
Baker, with additional performances by James O'Connor. Sound designed by Brandon Jones,
composed by Darren Morsey, editing by Thomas Beach, Sean Christiansen and Adam Volerich.
Recording and engineering by Dave Williams, Mixing, mastering and additional editing by
Nick Massidi. I d Reads by Natalie Prass for Amazon Music. Executive producers
are Morgan Jones and Dave Easton. Senior producer is Eliza Mills. Special thanks
to Jacob Braunstein, Phil Sanchez, Chris Davis, Jack Parker, Marcellino,
Vlpondo, Stephanie Walknein Blad, Norman Vanessa Rebert, Sam Petherbridge, Cale Bittner,
Alice Zoe, Trevor McNeil ty, Jacobsen, Rich Sherman Marshall, Louie
w IBC, WISH TV, and Creative Artists Agency,