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Welcome to the podcast This Is Who
Killed Teresa, and I'm your host John

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Alore. For a number of weeks, I've been moonlighting over on a neighbor

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podcast called gov Love. Now.
Gov Love is a podcast that has to

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do with issues and interests related to
local government, and most recently, I

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completed an interview with the journalist Malcolm
Gladwell. Malcol is known for a number

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of books, but more recently,
he himself has launched a podcast called Revisionist

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History. For this week's episode,
I'm going to play that interview with Malcolm

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Gladwell. And some of you may
wonder what an interview with Melton Cloudwell has

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to do with a podcast about unsolved
murders. Maybe frame it this way.

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In the interview we discuss largely issues
of social justice, so maybe consider the

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relationship between criminal and social justice.
Malcolm and I attended Trinity College the University

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of Toronto together, and perhaps infamously, we are connected by an episode of

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the Moth he did in I believe
two thousand and nine called Her Way,

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in which he discussed how he and
a group of his friends destroyed a wedding.

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And preparing this interview, I had
a number of colleagues review some drafts

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of it to offer any suggestions they
might have for improvement, and overwhelmingly the

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common thing that came back was why
did you never discuss the wedding with Malcolm?

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And at the end of the playing
of the interview, I will submit

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a PostScript and offer of my thoughts
for why that was never discussed. I

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think when you hear the whole story, I'd probably come to see that it

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was justifiable reason. Malcolm Gladwell,
welcome, Thank you. So I wanted

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to ask you, you know about
revisionist history. Nowadays everyone has a podcast,

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and then and then you decided to
have a podcast, and I mean

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I was clearly I was struck by
it. You pack a ton of information

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into it. It's very emotionally charged, which I like initially. What did

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you set out to do with this
podcast? Why did you feel you needed

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to do it? And are you
happy with the outcome? I? Well,

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I have a friend in the podcast
business, my old friend Jacob runs

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Panoply, which is one of the
big podcast publishers, and so he just

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said to me, you should do
a podcast. And I was procrastinating about

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my next book, and so I
said sure, and then I had no

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idea what I wanted to do,
and I I just kind of started in

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the middle and I had a few
stray ideas around of things I thought would

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be interesting, and then, uh, it just kind of mushroomed. I

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thought it was going to take me. I thought it was going to be

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a month's work, and it was
I had to be six months work.

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So I was completely deluded on all
levels about what I was getting into.

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UM. But here we are,
you know, just finishing season two,

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and I realized, I'm now it's
a kind of a it's basically a full

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time job. I mean it's half
half a year I have to devote to

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this. UM. So it's turned
from I think I did entered in very

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casually into something that I'm really into. Yeah, I gotta say it's it's

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really great to hear your voice on
the you know, there was sort of

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an l for people who know you
that was missing, you know, from

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the writing, and then to hear
your voice, it just adds a whole

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new dynamic to it. So you
you already have one season under your belt

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of revisionist history. I believe ten
episodes, and I think the season your

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season two is premiering this week.
Yeah, new season launches, so we

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can only do ten. I can
only do ten episodes a year. I

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can't. I mean coming up with
the ideas is full time job. So

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yeah, So the new season airs
h January June fifteenth, this Thursday,

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and then every Thursday for the next
ten weeks. Fantastic. So, in

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thinking of how you you, you
said you sort of came into this in

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the middle of it. If I
remember the timing right, um, I

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think in the summer twenty fifteen is
when you went on your your Twitter rant

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about the John Paulson the Harvard one
hundred two million dollar donation, and then

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I think in December of twenty fifteen, Hank Rowland I died. Did those

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two things factor into you wanting to
do this? Those two events? No,

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I had no idea, No,
neither of those facts have anything had

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anything to do with me wanting to
I completely independently decided to do a podcast.

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Never intended to do anything about endown
once at all, But then I

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did that. I was going to
do just one show on education. It

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was just going to be that about
that kid Carlos. I did a show

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on and then I did that and
I realized that was a show in and

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of itself. This seems to happen
a lot with these podcasts as I come

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in with an idea and I realized
that the idea is much bigger than I

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can do in forty minutes. And
so then I did a second show,

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which was The Vast serversus Bowden Show, and then and then I was I

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was going to do the stuff about
endowmas an now one, and then I

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realized, oh no, no,
there's still too much material. It was

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only then that I decided to do. Then. I hadn't known hand Grown

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had died. I just remembered reading
somewhere about his years ago, about his

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about his donation to Pasporths Day College. So then you know, there's the

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whole thing is incredibly there's no logic
at all. It's just completely serendipitous.

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But the new season a big chunk
of the last episode I did, which

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will be episode six, which is
we're recording this week. I was home

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in Canada and my sister in law
told me a story. It's like really,

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and I just took my paper quota
out and I recorded her on the

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spot. And then the story involved
this guy and his wife who lived down

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the street, and so I called
him up and I said, will you

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come over? And my you know, and my niece babysitted their kids while

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this guy and his wife talked to
me. I mean, it's literally on

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that left. Sometimes it's on that
level of spontaneous. Well, yeah,

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I wondered. I wondered that.
I mean, you're you're obviously beyond the

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level where say you're at the New
Yorker and somebody assigns you to the story,

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and I wonder how much of that
is is you you, as you

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say, just serendipitously learning of an
event, say like in the Mennonite episode,

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and just pulling out the tape recorder, as opposed to, um,

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you know, somebody you're assigning you
something. I imagine there's not a lot

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of that. Although you get ideas, imagine from a lot they filter through

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a lot of places. There's no
there's no assignment. Sadly, I wish

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there was. All of the ideas
are are are mine? Um, I'm

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desperate for to find other ways of
generating ideas, because it's coming up with

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ten good story ideas for a podcast
is really hard. Um, But no,

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they're all they're every single one of
them has the same very serendipitous UM

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kind of origin when I have now
I have some in the bank, but

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they're not really problem is that you
know that, you know, you consider

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twenty and you choose ten, But
you can't just do the ten remaining the

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next season because you rejected them for
a reason, right right, your ideas

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move on. You're not You're not
there anymore, and they're not Some of

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them are not any good. But
I had what I wanted to do about

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UM. I wanted to defend Ryan
Williams for his memory problems, and I

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just I can't. I just can't
do it in a way that makes me

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happy. I mean, are you
The desire to defend him is very strong,

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but the way in which you I
would defend him is it just doesn't

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strike me as being interesting enough.
I can't. I mean, until I

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figure out how to do that story, I can't do it. You know,

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it's sort of not just just having
a notion that you're interested is not

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sufficient. It's like, is there
an interesting way to do it? And

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I just can't figure out what that
is. I wanted to I wanted to

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spend a little time on the Education
Trilogy, because I think it's essential listening.

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Certainly. You know, I have
young daughters who who are starting the

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college, you know, experience,
and I've insisted that they listen to it.

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Starting with Carlos doesn't remember. You
make the point that the point of

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privilege being advised you as second chances, and I wondered if you could talk

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a little bit about how that's particularly
true in the United States, the idea

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that you only get one shot,
as opposed to, for instance, where

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we grew up educated in Canada.
Yeah. I don't it's very m it's

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weird. I don't really get it. I don't stand the primacy of college

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in American mythology. I mean,
it's just four years, and for those

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four years, people go nuts.
They spend three years trying to get into

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the four year institution, and then
they go into debt for the next thirty

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years to pay for the four years, or pay for the four years,

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and then they pretend that something happens
in those four years that's magical and could

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only happen at the institution they chose, or at least the institution that was

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number one on their list. The
whole thing is bananas. I mean,

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just make ay there's nothing. I
mean, I had this same rule when

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I hire assistance, I won't.
I don't let them tell me the names

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of any of the institutions they attended. And I tell them, if you

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let slip where you went to school, you're not getting the job. It's

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just my little protest against this ludicrous
system. I honestly could care less where

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when you went to college. Who
cares? I care what they can do

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for me, you know, or
what they're like now, I don't know.

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It's sort of the system is there's
a number of particular American talent or

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taking good ideas and destroying them with
a kind of an over application of zeal.

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You know, the healthcare system in
America is too good. It's just

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ridiculous. I mean, it's like
it's so goal plated and you know,

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to the point where nothing matters anymore. You know. The there's nothing wrong

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with playing tackle football. There's a
problem with playing tackle football from the age

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of six, right, Like,
it's fine if you play it. In

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fact, the medical data backs this
up. Your risk of of long term

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brain trauma if you start playing in
college is very small. It's just a

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time thing. The damage you do
is the damage you do when you start

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playing at six, So why play
at six? Who needs to play it

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at six? Like it's just the
same, Like it's this this kind of,

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like I said, this over zealousness
that you know, a good college

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is a good thing, but that
does not mean that the very best college

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is the very best thing. Um
that it's that I'm always reminded of that

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that one wonderful legal axiom the perfect
is the enemy of the good, that

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to me sums up American society.
It's just like that, this relentless search

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for the very very best thing,
as if it makes a difference. It's

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interesting because I mean, obviously they're
they're broad themes of social justice I find

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in in all of your work,
but particularly in revisionist history. But I

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always kind of think, is that
what you're kind of doing in the in

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the podcast, are you trying to
balance the scales a little bit about who

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wins and who who loses? I
mean, you talk a little bit about

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yourself being a lone voice. You
feel that way. Well, it's funny

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now that I have season two in
the bag. Season two does I hadn't

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thought explicitly about that theme the season
two does in more than half of the

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shows. Half of the shows at
least pick up on that. I'm obsessed

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in season two with power and with
the way in which Americans like to pretend

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that any complex situation is about anything
except a power struggle. So they're always

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personalizing things. We don't get along
as opposed to he's got all the power

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and he doesn't, right that that
kind of thing, which is, you

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know, that's the race narrative in
this country is you know, why can't

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we just get along? Well,
why can't we have a system where you

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know, one group has the same
amount of power as the other group.

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That's the issue. It's not it's
not a personal question. It's not about

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you know. So these are these
are things I guess as I've gotten older,

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that I've gotten far more interested in. I don't think I'm a lone

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voice. I just because I think
there's lots of people say that. I

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just think I think, maybe,
um, maybe I would only say that

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there aren't enough voices. Maybe that's
it that you have to shout awfully hard

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to be heard in this country.
So I would I'd like to be surrounded

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by a thousand others saying the same
thing. Um. But you know,

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the the amount of kind of um, the the this in this second season

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and what I'm what I get out
a lot is how much euphemism there is

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in the way Americans describe social problems. And it bothers me that they're not

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just more honest about it. Um. You know, there's just all this

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great attempt made to um to to
pretty five things is that there's two shows

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are just about fairy tales that we've
told about civil rights that just aren't plainly

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they're just it just didn't happen that
way, right, But no one is

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interested in seat of going back.
We're so deeply invested in in this very

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night nice little heroic story and you
know, we've we've turned our backs on

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that kind of messiness of real life. I wanted to follow up a little

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bit more on Carlos doesn't remember you
talk about the the Lennox, California area

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where Carlos was in middle school.
I actually remember that school system at that

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time. At a certain point when
my daughter was one, we lived in

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Marina del Rey, and so that
was that was going to be an option

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for her to go to school,
and that actually was the catalyst because you're

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write in describing it as like a
concentration camp. It was one of the

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main decision points about saying because my
my wife at that time was working at

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this lush school in private school and
Pacific Palisades, you know, where Tom

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Hanks kids went and all that,
but that's not where our kids were going

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to go. My kids were going
to go to Lennox and that forced us

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to make the decision to move to
North Carolina. We would have a better

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opportunity. You mentioned, yeah,
go ahead, I had no idea.

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I had no idea. You live
done there, that's funny. Yeah,

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yeah, yeah, you know you
you mentioned that. You know, with

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a lot of these kids, you
know, they have to be they have

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to have an intervention almost in the
first five years of their lives because by

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the time they you know, they
hit middle school, they're already getting affiliated

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or you said eighty percent or getting
affiliated, which is which incredible, is

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incredible? Yeah, How emotionally difficult
was it doing that story? I mean,

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do you have you heard anything further
from Carlos? Oh, Carlos,

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there was a The story I heard
was that Carlos was in a summer program

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because he's a really, really really
he's a very very smart kid. And

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he was doing this in rich summer
program on the West Side. You know,

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it's some fancy place, and his
teacher made the class listen to that

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episode. So they all listened to
the episode and then Carlos, of course

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his real name is in Carlos,
so they don't know as him. And

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so he puts his hand up and
he says, that's me, and like

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the whole class is like what.
And he gets up and he talks about

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it to them. And this was
described to me because told to me because

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he had been very reluctant to talk
about his family life, and so he

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got up and and I just I
thought, I mean, that was the

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kind of if this if the episode
was not emotional enough, that was the

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emotional um kind of capstone. Um. Yeah, they're very some of those

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whore they're very Uh, they're hard
to do. They're they're not hard to

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do in the moment. The interview
is not the hard part. What the

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hard part is that sitting and listening
to the tape and figuring out what you

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want to say and then recording it. That's when it that's when it sort

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of hits you because in a moment
you're you know, you have your kind

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of journalists objectivity protecting you, but
you don't when you when you're just listening

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to the tape all by yourself.
Can I can I move to food fight?

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That's sure? Oh yeah I didn't. Okay, first off, I

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didn't know you worked in the kitchen
at Trinity because I lived above it.

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Well, I was a tally whacker. Now, as you will remember,

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a tally whacker doesn't work in the
kitchen. A tally whacker is an administrator

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of the kitchen process. It's all
coming back to me. Unfortunately, your

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your final conclusion is just suck it
up and go to vasser Um, which

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is yeah, and I you know
you you bring this. You rightly bring

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up this pressure kids put on themselves
about choosing a college and then thinking it's

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the most poor formative us their lives. I mean, then, my middle

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daughter has so many spreadsheets in this
decision making process of where to apply,

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and one of the places is vasser
that she's she's considering. When you did

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that story, I know you had
an intern working on it, but I

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think we went to Maine. But
you went up yourself to the Vassar campus.

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I went to Vasser, and I
sent Jacob, my assistant, to

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Bodin so Um, and then he
went to Vasser on his own to talk

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to the kids. I did the
administration. I'm too old to interview students

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with incredibility, so I let him
do all that, but I did the

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administration interviews at It all started because
I can't remember why. I wasn't intending

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to do food at all. For
some reason, I got it in my

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head that it would be interesting to
talk to the president of ass her,

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and so I called her up.
It's one of the first interviews I did

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for the whole season. Called her
up, and I went to see her

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on New Year's Eve, and she
was the only person there, sat in

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her office, and she just It's
just a super one of those super interesting

250
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interviews that made me think about a
million things. But I was originally interested

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in something else entirely, and I
cannot even remember what it was. But

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I just sort of one of those
cases where you just get the let the

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tape run, and then she takes
you in interesting places. But it took

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a while for me to understand that
the episode was about food. Originally it

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was just going to be this very
straightforward thing about what it means to be

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a college like that wants to have
a place for lots of four kids.

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And then I realized, oh,
there's a way more fun way to tell

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the story, and that is to
pick on boding because you know, Boden

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is the is the antithesis of Assa
in this really interesting way. And once

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I realized I had a villain,
and the villain was so wonderfully villainous.

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I mean, you cannot can you
ask for a better villain than Bodin,

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I mean you can't. This is
kind of pretentious, overly wealthy, like

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you know, like a little privileged. I mean, it's just like everything

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it's just appalling. I mean it's
just like everything about it is horrible.

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And I knew, well, I
mean, how how how much um kind

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of back push do you get from
say a Boden or print tons when you

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do this? Really? Oh my
god, Boden denounced me. They issued

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press releases. There was like a
Twitter war against me. I mean,

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but remember it's exactly what I wanted. I mean, I didn't get them

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to engage I wanted I wanted.
I realized if I was gonna. I

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mean I was, I was kind
of I was a little bit calculating.

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I mean the episode is over the
top, right of course. I mean

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it's like I mean, it was
like it was like the kind of thing

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we would have done back in college. In fact, I was thinking very

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explicitly of some of our hijinks back
in the day. But it was I

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was deliberate. I was baiting them, and they took the bait. I

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mean like they totally went ape shit. The everything I didn't do, which

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I should have done. NPR wanted
me to come on one of those afternoon

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shows and debate someone from both I
really should have done it. I can't

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believe I didn't do it. I
was busy, I had some reason I

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couldn't do it. But um,
it would have been I mean, I

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can you imagine how much mone I
could have had. I mean, it

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just would have been just would have
been fantastic. We should we should address

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this. There's there is that subversive
element to the way you do a story.

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Um that works on that level where
you will will go someone like that

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into and then you know it breaks
into, for lack of a better term,

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a Twitter war. But you're engaging
them. And this is as I

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00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:26.359
recall, this is an old tactic
you've had for years. Can you talk

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00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:30.160
a little bit about you know,
you wrote for the student newspaper at Trinity.

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I believe it was correct me if
I'm wrong. I believe it was

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called the Pelican, and it was
called it was called No, you're you're

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conflating two things. It was called
Trinsite Trinsite, remember Trinsite. You're quite

293
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:47.400
right, it was Trinsite. The
Pelican, I think you did. What

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was the difference? Pelican Power was
a was a mock football newsletter that I

295
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used to post, remember, in
which I would I would glorify the Trinity

296
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football team. It had absolutely nothing
to do with football anything you wrote,

297
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:11.680
and yet it did it well.
Bruce, Remember we Bruce created character we

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since so few people went to the
football games, Bruce created Weird of those

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00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.960
who created this character called Wexford Harding, who we claimed was the football coach.

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And then Bruce would write these articles
by Wexford Harding in the newspaper in

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which he would sort of wax elegaic
and talk about his drinking problem. And

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00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:40.440
so it was the whole thing was
it was highly amusing, but yes,

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no, the provocation. I believe
I learned a trinity from the masters of

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provocation, and I took those lessons, you know, I feel like there

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00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:56.160
was any number of brilliant role models
of how to get someone's goat, and

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I paid careful attention and i've i've
I've kept it up since then. People

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don't you know people's ability to pick
fights. People think it's it's um.

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00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:14.440
They don't take it seriously enough.
There's a real art picking. I'll fight

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the right way to provoking your opponent
and just you can't. You can't hit

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00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:25.079
them over the head, and you
can't be mean. Right where you can

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00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:29.240
be you can use the needle.
And I always felt like trinity was at

312
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:36.359
its best. I always think about
this moment when it was a college meeting,

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all the students and we had a
lot of money for some reason because

314
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:47.839
of the video games we had,
and right before the meeting the proms wife's

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00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.480
dog had died because he'd ingested the
used conduct in the in the garden of

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00:25:53.519 --> 00:26:00.400
the and someone came, someone from
Saint Mike's College, and for the listeners,

317
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.240
Saint Mike's College was a Catholic college
which we were for no, for

318
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:08.759
no real reason. We were formally
opposed to the Catholics. Right there,

319
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:14.759
someone from Saint Mike's showed up,
showed up and asked for like literally one

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00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:19.200
hundred dollars to go towards a trip
to Africa to work with, you know,

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refugees, And we had this and
everyone instantly in the room saw the

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00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.839
comic possibility in a way that even
today I don't really understand. We then

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00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:33.839
had this long, faux intellectual discussion
about not about the question of whether we

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00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.480
should support someone who wanted to help
refugees, but whether it was a precedent

325
00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:45.519
that we could whether it was an
appropriate precedent for us to be taking discretionary

326
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:51.799
funds and giving to someone from another
college. And everyone loved this totally ridiculous

327
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.000
discussions went on on on and forever. We had a vote. We voted

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00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.279
down the guy from Saint Mike's,
and then immediately someone puts their hand up

329
00:26:56.279 --> 00:27:00.960
and says, I propose we give
promised five hundred dollars for a new dog,

330
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and it was approved unanimously. I
remember that moment thinking this is absolutely

331
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:12.119
brilliant, this is how you do
it right. It's hilarious. It's like

332
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:19.279
completely subtle, it's totally outrageous.
It so provokes this poor guy from says,

333
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.680
but there was a kind of collective
understanding of how to do the joke

334
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:29.039
if it's never forgotten. And I've
all I remembered that I have aspired to

335
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:37.720
that kind of cleverness ever since.
Well, and to my mind, that's

336
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:42.039
exactly what's going on when you're interviewing
John Hennessy, the President of Stanford,

337
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:48.279
is that you're slowly opping the stakes
and saying, how how far can I

338
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:52.559
take this? If? If,
if, what would you do with you

339
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.200
know, ten billion dollars and see
if he can respond with a straight face.

340
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.319
And he does. You say he
barely. He says I could never

341
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:04.000
consider that, and then within two
seconds he has an answer. Yeah,

342
00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:07.960
and that was hilarious. That was
like a gift from God. The whole

343
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:11.039
time that was happening, I was
like, just I was just I had

344
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:14.960
my eyes on my tape of quorder. I just I was like, dear

345
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.920
God, I hope I am recording
this because if I if you know,

346
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.640
if I missed this, man,
I've lost an opportunity. Yeah. That

347
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:30.119
was It's rare that someone takes the
bait like that, and yeah he did.

348
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Did you ever get to your mind? I mean we should say so,

349
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:44.119
so Hennessey establishes this night Hennessy Scholarship, a hundred of the best and

350
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:48.400
brightest in the country will come to
a graduate program at Stanford in order to

351
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solve the most important problems, the
world's hardest problems. Did you ever get

352
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:03.920
to your mind a satisfactory answer as
to what those problems were in there?

353
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.599
You know, to spend that amount
a month? Yeah, I didn't.

354
00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.680
I was almost. I mean,
he mentioned a couple, but they so

355
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:15.720
clearly were not the world's biggest problems
that I you know that the question remains

356
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:21.039
open um. He wanted to.
He just mentioned the one of trying to

357
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:26.599
figure out why Mark Zuckerbird's gift to
Newark wasn't working out the way, which

358
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.720
was just another billionaires you know,
like so it was like it seemed awfully

359
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:34.319
kind of well, it was a
it was a dog chasing its own it

360
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.559
was a billionaire dog chasing its own
tail. At that point. No,

361
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.759
I didn't. I mean, look, these it's not about they pretend that,

362
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:48.920
but it's ultimately just a it's another
medal for kids with lots of medals.

363
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:51.799
That's what it is. It's an
eight hundred million dollar medal that you

364
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.759
give to award some winner in order
for that person to say I'm a winner.

365
00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:02.680
And you know that's you know,
it's foolish to try. And um,

366
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we didn't do it any more than
that. That's all it is.

367
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:08.119
You know, it's like and they
needed a million to do it. I

368
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:11.880
mean, it's just a kind of
it's the luna. It was the most

369
00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:14.920
lunatic. The minute I heard about
that, I was like, this has

370
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:18.640
got to be a joke. I
mean, it ken and it's not.

371
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:22.319
It's like it's real. Well,
I mean I certainly watched the video.

372
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.720
They have a four minute video launching, oh you know, and it's got

373
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:32.039
the good it's got the drone shots
of the campus, it's got Condoleeza Rice.

374
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.039
I think innovation is mentioned six times. Um, And then they have

375
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:44.759
the nerve to talk about diversity,
and what they really mean is geographic diversity.

376
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.839
You know, we'll pick this person, this elite person from this country,

377
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.680
from this country. But as as
you say, it's it's absolutely antiphetical

378
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:59.799
to what you talk about in the
case, Um, Hank Rowland's idea in

379
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:03.839
order to have a or a vasser
idea of you have a classroom with true

380
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:10.079
diversity in that way that you know, the hedge fund manager's daughter learns from

381
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:14.160
you know, the janitor's son,
who are both at the same college.

382
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:22.799
How how how how important was diversity
for you growing up in Elmira or how

383
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:27.359
aware of it were you or the
lack of it? Well, I was,

384
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:33.359
I mean it's um. I think
one of the lessons I've learned from

385
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:38.279
growing up Elmira was I don't know
whether the school environment is necessarily I mean,

386
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:44.200
I think it was very, very
useful for me to go through the

387
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:52.400
end of high school in a community
where the overwhelming majority of kids we're not

388
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.920
going to college and had parents who
had not gone to college. Um.

389
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.960
I think that was really useful at
the end of the day. Apart from

390
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:05.880
that may be the wrong word to
use, but if we're thinking about it

391
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:10.240
in you know, kind of what
did it mean for me? I think

392
00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:15.680
it does ground you in something other
than the rarefied world you could end up

393
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:20.000
in. So I'm grateful that I
went through that experience. And I think

394
00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:25.920
as well, if especially if you're
in the business of I'm in them.

395
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:32.359
I'm in the the mass media business. I write for a wide audience,

396
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:37.359
and it's really hard to learn how
to write for a wide audience if you've

397
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:40.519
never spent time with a wide audience. Right, So, in that sense,

398
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:44.920
I think it beautifully prepared me for
what I was what I wanted to

399
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:49.759
end up doing. But more than
that, you know, the deeper thing

400
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:52.720
is, I think it wasn't It
wasn't just school. I mean, there's

401
00:32:52.759 --> 00:33:00.960
so much a focus on school as
the primary engine of of kind of diversity.

402
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:04.960
It's but I think you're the town
you live in and the neighborhood you

403
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:10.640
live in is probably even more so
that I wonder whether it's part of the

404
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:15.559
same problem we were talking about earlier, when you we put so much pressure

405
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:20.519
on the school to do everything,
and you forget that kids just aren't in

406
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:24.079
school for that many hours, that
most of their life is outside of school,

407
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:28.480
and who their neighbor is, and
who they run into when they go

408
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:32.640
down the street, and who they
play sports with. Those matter to me

409
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:39.359
almost more. I would be if
I thought that people that kid, that

410
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:45.240
kids would meet people different from themselves
when they played sports, I would be

411
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:51.759
very happy. I almost feel like
that matters more than having a kid who's

412
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:57.279
different from you sitting two rows over
in math class, you know, doing

413
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:00.160
something active, or having being in
the kids in your scout troop, being

414
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:06.559
different from you when you're out in
the world and engaging with people outside the

415
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:10.840
classroom. Those are I think much
more important lessons. Well, I mean,

416
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.239
I think that's absolutely right. My
my my experience growing up in my

417
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:22.039
neighborhood in Montreal was richly diverse.
My experience going to college was not diverse

418
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.239
at all whatsoever. Yeah, and
at that point would it have really had

419
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.880
ye in a fact, Yeah,
although you know, it's funny, my

420
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:36.760
experience at Trinity was very diverse,
if only because there was a certain kind

421
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.559
of person who I'd never met,
kind of ruling class kids before. So

422
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:45.760
it was reverse diverse. It was
like, you know, these kids,

423
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:50.960
these diplomats, kids who went to
Upper Canada College or whatever, are or

424
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:54.519
what's the one in um, what's
the one in Ottawa? The fancy one

425
00:34:54.599 --> 00:35:00.519
or yeah, I know, well
if they went to bray Booth School,

426
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.039
the private school in Montreal. Yeah, and you're you're right. So there

427
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.639
you are at Trinity and you're rubbing
you know, shoulders with the son of

428
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:10.400
the former Bank of Canada, and
you're kind of going, what that's like,

429
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:14.880
that's interesting, you know that I
found that totally fastly. I did

430
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:19.199
not know anyone like that, and
I didn't know. I remember telling my

431
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:22.800
dad and can't believe I said to
him. I went home my father and

432
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:27.760
I said, you know, of
all of the fathers of the kids on

433
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:31.400
my floor, you make the least
money. He took it. I didn't

434
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:34.760
mean it in a horrible way.
I was just pointing out to him.

435
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.119
It's like what I meant was,
this is a weird place that I'm going

436
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:42.760
to college, Like you're a college
professor and you're you know, we're the

437
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:47.199
I'm the poorest family on my floor. And he of course, maybe I

438
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:52.679
think I think I offended him deeply, but but it's true. I mean,

439
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:55.719
you know, it's weird. I
when I was in high school,

440
00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:00.039
my father would have been, you
know, one of the very well the

441
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:05.599
people in high school and then in
college. Literally I mean, I mean

442
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:08.480
I basically did the math in my
head and was like, you know,

443
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:14.119
I don't think I don't think.
I don't think he's anyone to the top.

444
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.400
I've read that. Um. As
a as a child, you kind

445
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:23.599
of have the run of your father's
of the campus at University of Waterloo,

446
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:30.559
being able to kind of float through
there freely and explore. And is that

447
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:32.199
true? Is there? And did
that have an affect in you? I

448
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:36.119
mean not, I mean it might
be a slight exegeration. I used to

449
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.840
go with him. My fondest memories
of childhood are when I would go with

450
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:44.679
my father. I would skip school, go with him to the university and

451
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.280
spend the day in the library the
university, which I just thought was the

452
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:53.400
greatest thing in the world and still
do. Um. But uh, yeah,

453
00:36:53.440 --> 00:37:05.719
there was a kind of um by
virtue of parents who are intellectually minded.

454
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:07.719
You just get access to a world. I mean we did two things.

455
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:12.800
We read a lot of books and
we traveled, and we and my

456
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.599
parents had friends who read a lot
of books and traveled, and you know,

457
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:23.199
that was that that was an incredible
luxury and so yeah, that was

458
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:29.519
I had. I think of my
upbringing as being extraordinarily privileged. I mean,

459
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:35.159
I can't imagine it being any better. Shall we talk a little bit

460
00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:40.039
about Deportees Club, Yes, let's
do that. So this is your episode

461
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:45.400
where you kind of talk about the
difference between an artist who's sort of like

462
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.760
a one off, a one and
done, say like an Orson Wells he

463
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:52.760
makes Citizen King, that's it,
as opposed to in this case, what

464
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:59.079
you use, I guess is Elvis
Costello's song Deportees Club and then further on

465
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:05.880
Leonard Honsluyah, which were really long, iterative processes to get to the final

466
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:10.920
um positive outcome. But beyond all
that egg headedness, let's just say that

467
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:15.880
Deportees Club is one of the worst
songs you've ever heard, I've heard,

468
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:21.000
I've ever heard. Definitely, Yeah, it's terrible. So and I remember

469
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.400
the summer that album came out Good
Goodbye Cruel World, because it was coming

470
00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:30.280
off the heels of not exactly I
think which one it was, maybe Imperial

471
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:35.119
Bedroom, an album that was so
good, and so there was a great

472
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:40.400
sense it's after punch the Clock.
I think it is right. Yeah,

473
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:45.239
um, do you want to talk
about that a little bit? And maybe

474
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:47.719
not so much Elvis Costello, but
that episode and what led to it,

475
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:55.480
Yeah, I wanted to do.
UM. I can't remember what came first.

476
00:38:55.639 --> 00:38:59.719
I was. I just went across
this great book that had been written

477
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:06.800
about Hallelujah. Um, and I
so I just I just I read it,

478
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:08.679
and then that guy was in New
York, so I just met with

479
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:15.639
the author and I was just really
taken by I've always been fascinated by this

480
00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:22.320
notion of the slow developing yet and
I hadn't realized that song had such an

481
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:30.599
extraordinarily long lead up. And I
think originally it was just going to be

482
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:36.920
a song, a piece about Hallelujah. But what I realized with these podcasts

483
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:43.280
is that you they're always better when
there's a B story, and if the

484
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:47.360
b story is personal, one of
the two stories is personal. Books.

485
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:55.360
Even the absolutely perfect podcast from from
my original history in my mind is two

486
00:39:55.400 --> 00:40:01.000
stories that are that overlap but are
not same. One is personal, one

487
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:07.639
is not. One has a deeper
theme, and you you toggle back and

488
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:12.320
forth between the two of them.
That's the kind of format that I think

489
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:17.800
is ideal. And so I I
just got to thinking about Deep Ortis Club

490
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:28.360
when I was reading about Hallelujah,
just because I oh, I know why,

491
00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:32.559
because somebody I bought a turntable,
and someone as a gift gave me

492
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.880
good Bye Cruel World, and I
listened to it. But I listened to

493
00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:43.639
it like I hadn't. I don't
think that was one Alma album I never

494
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.400
bought. And I listened to it
and realized that there was. I hadn't

495
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:52.719
realized that he had done original version
of Deep Ortical Deep Ortiese Club. Heard

496
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:54.880
it for the first time when I
was just by accident, when I was

497
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:58.679
in the middle of doing the story, and thought, oh my god,

498
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.079
first of all, that's terrible,
and secondly, um, that's exactly what

499
00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:07.119
I'm talking about, um with all
luyah um. So it was another one

500
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:12.920
of these sermendipitous um I literally hit
completely For some reason, I just thought

501
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:16.800
that that Deportise Club was a was
a Depoti was a B side he just

502
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.639
threw out there and never put on
an album. I had no idea they

503
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:27.159
had an origin as a song that
had been released on on in a different

504
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:30.480
form um. And so yeah,
it was just a kind of And when

505
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:31.800
I realized that, I was like, oh, you know, it's better.

506
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:37.519
That's that's that's just even more interesting
to have to have Alvis Costello's side

507
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:43.519
by side with with And then I
spent months fruitlessly trying to talk to Alvis

508
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:46.639
Costello and failed. So then I
decided I would make do with UM,

509
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:52.679
which has actually turned out very well
with his producer. UM, did you

510
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:55.039
go to London for that interview?
Yeah? I did. I was in

511
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:58.679
London. I did a bunch because
there's a bunch of London interviews in the

512
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:00.880
first season. I just did them
all in and go. I loved the

513
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:06.480
producer. I just thought he was
fantastic UM and such a London character.

514
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:08.440
I mean, you know there we
were in Hackney, you know, like

515
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:12.519
of course, in a pub in
Hackney. I mean, I just can't

516
00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:17.360
there was something so fantastic about the
English that I can't never get enough of.

517
00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:21.840
UM. And that was part of
it. I wondered if you could

518
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:27.920
preview the new season of Religionist History, What what? What should people be

519
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:34.239
looking forward to? It is very
happy with it. I think it's better

520
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:37.000
than season one. It's a little
more, I know what, a little

521
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:42.760
more what I'm doing now. Um, it's have four civil rights episodes,

522
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:49.159
UM. Four shows that basically are
all about the fifties in the South.

523
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:58.119
UM. And Uh, they're under
und earth some really weird, deepy stuff.

524
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:02.199
UM. And then I have a
really fun piece about sad songs,

525
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:09.960
country music and sad songs. Um, I have a piece about how McDonald's

526
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:14.920
ruined French fries. I have a
spice, I have a spy story.

527
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:23.920
I have Um yeah, I have
this um thing about World War two,

528
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:30.960
about the Bengal famine of nineteen forty
three. Who caused it? Um?

529
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:34.280
You know it's like saying, well, it's like it jumps all over the

530
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.599
place. Um, like at one
on golf. The opening one is about

531
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:43.840
golf. Um. It's the title
is Good Walk Spoiled Rich People in Golf,

532
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:49.239
a philosophical investigation. It's it's all
about it is essentially it is exactly

533
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:53.679
that, a philosophical investigation of why
rich people are obsessed with golf. And

534
00:43:53.760 --> 00:44:00.480
I en missed the end of actual
real life philosopher and we we into it.

535
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.400
It's a really fun episode. That's
that's what opens it up. Um.

536
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.639
But uh yeah, no, I'm
very excited about it. Well,

537
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:10.079
I don't want to take up too
much of your time. I want to

538
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:15.679
end with something called like a lightning
round. It's just for people to get

539
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:20.119
to know I guess a little a
little better. So I'll just take you

540
00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:23.199
through a bunch of questions here,
all right, Um, Malcolm Gladwell,

541
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:30.480
what what book are you currently reading? I'm currently reading an old Len Dighton

542
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:35.960
thriller called Funeral in Berlin. Really, I wouldn't have thought that at all.

543
00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:42.039
Um, what are two things on
your LinkedIn profile that we might not

544
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.599
actually know about you? Are you
even on LinkedIn? I have no idea.

545
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:47.000
No, I'm not. Okay,
I mean I am. I yeah,

546
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.280
but there's no substance to it,
so I wouldn't even know what I

547
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:52.760
have on it? All right,
I'll reframe the question. What are two

548
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:59.840
things we might not know about you? I'm an obsessive track and field fan.

549
00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:13.079
Yeah, um that's one. Uh, that's another, well and right,

550
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.800
and a massive car enthusiast. Yes
I have. I have, for

551
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:22.320
example, a back issues of every
issue of Car Magazine, which is the

552
00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:28.119
great car magazine called Car, going
back to the early nineties. I had

553
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:30.400
no idea as a kid you sent
away for all those brochures? Right,

554
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:37.639
Yes, why did you do that? Because I am a car not and

555
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:42.480
I continue to be. I have
not changed in that respect. What's the

556
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:49.239
first concert you ever saw? Good
Brothers? The Good Brothers were a We're

557
00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:55.280
a seven Ontario um bluegrass band who
I saw a nineteen seventy seven. Oh

558
00:45:55.400 --> 00:46:01.199
boy, then what was the second
conscious? Might have been the Mercy Brothers,

559
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:07.039
who were a southern Ontario country band. Um who a very good one

560
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:14.199
actually? Uh that they were from
Elmira, okay, Um. They did

561
00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:15.840
a very good version of Old Loves
Never Die. They just fade away.

562
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.360
The third concert I saw was a
Bruce Springsteen councert. I believe, so

563
00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:30.519
Um, what was your favorite cartoon
growing up? Judensberry A show you like

564
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:39.719
to binge watch? Uh? The
oa? What's the oh? The oa?

565
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:44.519
Yes? Yeah, it was done
by two friends of mine. I

566
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:46.000
love that show. When you're in
Toronto, where do you like to go

567
00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:54.559
to lunch? Uh? Good question? You know Toronto for lunch always suddenly

568
00:46:54.559 --> 00:47:01.119
baffles me? Um, but uh
you know I hung out on even I'm

569
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:06.239
boring either Queen Street West Corridor or
even better neighborood. I really like is

570
00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:15.440
UM's High Park, um on Ron's
sales, pick pick someplace on Well,

571
00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:20.480
Hey, Malcolm, I really appreciate
you taking your your time this afternoon to

572
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:24.039
have a have a talk, and
I wish you a great day. Thank

573
00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:29.760
you, John and so Um,
thank you, and I will I won't

574
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:31.880
be able to do this right away, but I will by the end of

575
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:51.679
the day, I'll send you the
file. So here's the thing about the

576
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:55.280
wedding. And if you haven't even
heard the Moth yet, here's what I

577
00:47:55.320 --> 00:48:05.039
suggest you do. Go and google
glass Well the moth her Way. Pause

578
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:09.480
this, go do that. Listen, take you all fifteen minutes and then

579
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:19.800
come back and we'll we'll talk about
her Way. So so everything in Malcolm's

580
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:23.880
story her Way is true, with
a few changes. A couple of names

581
00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:32.000
were changed for obvious reasons, although
not not very protectively. Pretty much,

582
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:40.519
let's slip who Craig is at one
point. And the wedding wasn't in in

583
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.599
Arizona. The wedding was in San
Diego, California. It was along a

584
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:52.119
highway. All I remember was like
the four oh five, A lot of

585
00:48:52.199 --> 00:49:00.039
concrete, a hotel downtown San Diego, a whole lot of concrete. The

586
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:07.159
reception wasn't at some steakhouse. The
reception I was at the Coronado Hotel in

587
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:12.920
San Diego. And all of that, all of it, though, is

588
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:19.320
absolutely true. We did do at
a rehearsal dinner, or we I did.

589
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:25.400
That's me who read out the list
of names with the with the the

590
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.360
script was pouring out of my pocket. There's so many women's names and all

591
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:37.440
of that. I do remember having
some momentary regrets potential of who should we

592
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.480
really go on with this the next
day because we were already planning. I

593
00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.679
think we had already written a couple
of verses, or at least knew we

594
00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:50.039
were going to sing a song the
next day at the wedding. What else

595
00:49:50.079 --> 00:50:00.440
do I remember? Dick the the
defense contractor, father of the bride was

596
00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:02.559
he kind of looked, you know, he kind of looked like Elie Yost.

597
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:07.960
If I think everybody nowadays knows the
producer Graham Yost, who, among

598
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:14.599
other things, produces The Americans on
Fax. Graham Yost's father was a guy

599
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:20.480
named Elie Yost who had a TV
show on I think it was Saturday evenings.

600
00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:24.400
It was like the Saturday Afternoon Movie
in Ontario, and that was Elie

601
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:31.639
Yost, and Dick looked very much
like Eyst. I remember there was a

602
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:37.880
wedding cake there. It was this
three tiered affair on Plexi glass. You

603
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:42.119
know, it kind of looked like
from the Jetsons, with each tier of

604
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:50.880
Plexi glass being like a different you
know world within Jetson's world. And I

605
00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:55.480
think at some point later in the
evening I face planted the cake. I

606
00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:04.719
think that did happen. A lot
of detailed boys serving chicken satte. Yeah.

607
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:08.719
Yeah, the whole thing just got
completely out of hand. I ended

608
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:15.559
that evening upstairs and the rooftop by
the pool and the jacuzzi naked, and

609
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:21.519
the jacuzzi with a bottle of champagne. And Malcolm walked by and saw me

610
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:29.039
and said, a lore, you
mad genius, and tore off all his

611
00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:31.519
clothes and join me in the jacuzzi. So this was the kind of affair

612
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:39.519
that we thought it should be and
that it devolved into. And then of

613
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:44.920
course the next day, yeah,
we ruined a friendship and a wedding,

614
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:57.519
and just to prove that I am
the John Malcolm's Moth story, Malcolm mentioned

615
00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:04.519
the song big in Goofy done to
the tune of Feeling Groovy, but then

616
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:10.480
he said he didn't remember the further
verses. Well, I remember them,

617
00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:20.239
and the final verse went like like
this, there's no trick, I won't

618
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:24.880
turn, there's no promise I'll keep. I'm stupid and boring. I'll put

619
00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:31.840
you to sleep. Keep integrity right
the fact out of my life I am

620
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:39.440
a claude who's big and goofy.
So the question should always be did we

621
00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:49.000
learn the lessons of that fiasco?
Did we ever get smarter in these affairs?

622
00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:55.599
And I would say yes, but
with the caveat that going forward,

623
00:52:55.679 --> 00:53:02.639
always there were a couple of variables
missing from the toxic mix. So years

624
00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:09.599
later I would go to other weddings, but you felt that the groom or

625
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:15.599
whoever you were being there, you
were representing there as a friend in that

626
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:23.679
capacity if if you had a inappropriate
toast or remark, you felt they might

627
00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:31.159
take it better than potentially Craig did. That was the first thing. The

628
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:37.480
second element that was always missing from
future weddings was a lot of the players

629
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:45.119
from that her Way San Diego wedding
In the future weddings were there, but

630
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:51.639
not all of them, and certainly
not Malcolm. And there was there was

631
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:58.639
always with Malcolm there a danger,
a potential. Malcolm was like this enabler.

632
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:04.800
He was like a gateway drug.
Certainly when he and I got together,

633
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:15.400
a danger that things could get gravely
out of hand. So cut forward

634
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:22.039
twenty years and by this time it's
already been I believe like maybe two or

635
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:30.239
three years since Malcolm has done this
story on the Moth. And we both

636
00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:40.119
get invited to a wedding in New
York. And if I collect it correctly,

637
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:50.320
Bryce was Malcolm's childhood best friend and
he was my college best friend,

638
00:54:51.320 --> 00:55:00.400
so he had this connection and and
Bryce was not someone who you did.

639
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:06.719
You did not want to screw up
his wedding by Bunny any token. And

640
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:10.239
we were older at this point,
we were supposed to be wiser, and

641
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:19.400
although instruction wasn't given to us,
it was known by several parties at that

642
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:25.159
for that wedding weekend what had happened
and who had done it. And there

643
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:35.800
there was there was a sense of
foreboding surrounding the affair, that something potentially

644
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:43.199
could go horribly wrong that you had
over which you had no control. And

645
00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:46.960
this this started very early, I
remembered. I think one of the first

646
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:54.239
events was was drinks at a bar
in Brooklyn and I and I entered the

647
00:55:54.320 --> 00:56:00.400
room, many familiar faces there,
and I looked across us the room and

648
00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:07.360
there was Malcolm and my first reaction
was, oh, my god, don't

649
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:14.079
look him in the eye, because
it's gonna be like a virus. If

650
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:17.719
you guys get out of control,
there's going to be no stopping you,

651
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:22.199
and you won't even know when it's
happening. It will start with a few

652
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:30.920
words in conversation and then it will
quickly escalate and devolve until it's it's too

653
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:35.800
late and there's no turning back.
So there was just this intense sense of

654
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:44.519
foreboding and whatever you do, you
need to be like hyper conscious of your

655
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:50.679
your behavior because you can't screw it
up. And I don't even think I

656
00:56:50.840 --> 00:56:57.280
exchanged but two words with Malcolm that
entire weekend, nor he with me,

657
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:02.719
because we were so hyper aware that
we could catch this infection, this this

658
00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:12.119
virus that would prove once again that
we were not smart enough to just screw

659
00:57:12.239 --> 00:57:17.599
up the most important day of someone's
life. Next day, we're wedding at

660
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:22.039
the chapel and followed by a reception. I believe that it was the Botanical

661
00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:30.320
Gardens in in Brooklyn, and again
the situation was sort of repeated, and

662
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:36.480
you know, you were you never
knew what might throw things. It's it's

663
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:45.480
like, was it should you have
ordered that San Pellegrino instead of a bourbon?

664
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:52.639
Did you you know would you potentially
say something you know inappropriate. Would

665
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:59.239
you would you laugh inappropriately at a
toast that everyone would just go, oh

666
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:04.559
god, here goes again. Um, And and there was there was a

667
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:10.679
moment of worry that Bryce was also
a journalist, and so there were a

668
00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:15.800
lot of There were a lot of
people slightly famous people who attended this who

669
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:19.880
I mean, I knew who they
were, but I didn't know them.

670
00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:23.320
And David Carr from the late David
Carr from the New York Times was there.

671
00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:30.840
Brian Steltler was there. I believe
Sam Sifton from the Times, that

672
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:35.679
food critic might have been there.
There was some famous food critic there.

673
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:43.199
And at one point after dinner,
I got cornered by a bunch of them.

674
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:47.639
And it was car who was sort
of leading it, and he started

675
00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:54.519
in he was like our year,
the John from the wedding, right,

676
00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:59.719
And I'm like, oh my god, this And so I'm trying to I'm

677
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.920
like, yeah, yeah, I
am, did it really happen? Was

678
00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:08.719
that true? So I'm I'm trying
to be really, you know, like

679
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:15.119
a biographer, telling him factually what
happened, without enjoying any of it,

680
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:21.119
because I figure if I start enjoying
it, they'll start enjoying it, and

681
00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:24.840
then again, you know, the
virus will catch us and someone will do

682
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:34.119
something wrong. And Malcolm again wisely, wasn't around. We avoided each other

683
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:38.239
all night. But you know,
in the end, I'll say, I'll

684
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:47.159
say this, we behaved ourselves and
we proved that we we could be smart

685
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:54.199
and and that we could just go
to an event like this finally twenty years

686
00:59:54.280 --> 01:00:02.000
later and not say a thing,
and not steal folk and simply have a

687
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:07.599
good time, because that's what your
hosts wanted you to do, to participate

688
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:15.480
in the dance without monopolizing the dance
in any way. And at the end

689
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:22.119
of it, the final thing was
Malcolm was asked to give a toast and

690
01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:29.559
he and of course there was a
little again this was this was provoking the

691
01:00:29.679 --> 01:00:36.320
situation because although although you you you
imagined that Bryce had spoken to him,

692
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:43.840
you didn't quite know what potentially again
could happen. But Malcolm gave one of

693
01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:52.519
the most remarkable wedding toasts to friendship
that I have ever heard. It was

694
01:00:52.079 --> 01:01:00.039
eloquent, was urbane, it was
humorous, and it was completely sincere.

695
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:15.119
So that is my wedding story.
We did it his way. This has

696
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:20.280
been Who Killed Teresa? And I'm
your host, John Allre. If you

697
01:01:20.360 --> 01:01:25.000
liked what you heard, please leave
us a comment on iTunes, and please

698
01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:34.880
leave Malcolm comment on iTunes as well. His podcast Revisionist History is available there

699
01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:43.679
and we are now approaching episode two
of season two. Have a listen.

700
01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:49.079
Check it out. It's good stuff. Finally, you can follow me on

701
01:01:49.119 --> 01:02:00.800
Twitter at Justice Guy. That's at
jus t Us Guy. Now I think

702
01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:08.360
about her and not living speak herring. No one now wants love her,

703
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:19.880
but I'll never feel say the loneliness
is gone down and I'm not saying today

704
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:30.480
O love live die. They just
made away. Now die. They just

705
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:42.719
say all love and die. They
just made away and die. They all

706
01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:47.000
love die. They just made a
way