What is krack lacking? Hardwoo Knox listeners, I am Dance Valley coming out.
You want us more without my fantabulous co host Adam Promo. I am
pumped up full of taffeen. Ready to talk about the next team on our
look Ahead Train. It's the Utah Jazz. Tony Jones of The Athletic was
nice enough to come on and chat with me for about an hour, covering
everything and anything about the Jazz heading into this season and even a little bit
longer term than that. He covers the Utah Jazz and the NBA at large
a little bit for the Athletic. He's at t Jones on the NBA on
Twitter at t Jones on the NBA sp exactly as it sounds. Great conversation.
Highly recommend it with a team where there is more to talk about than
I think meets the eye. You look at the top seven players and their
rotation just being back, and you can kind of write it off as,
oh, there's continuity. They have Rudy Gay, they got Eric Peshkal.
They added a side whiteside draft to Jared Butler, who might end up being
one of the seals of the draft. We get into all that, but
there's a lot more to talk about with this team than their continuity suggests.
Before we get started, usual housekeeping notes slash please pretty pretty Please remember to
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we're on Instagram at Hardwood Underscore Knocks. Without further delay, let's get to
talking all things and then some Utah jazz with Tony Jones. Thank you so
much for coming back to the Hardware Knocks podcasts to talk some Utah jazz with
me ahead of the start of this season. First and foremost, though,
how are you doing? I am good? Thank you for having me.
I'm fired up. I'm ready for the season to start. And what are
we nine days out now? Or wait a minute, when when is the
when? When? When are we? When are we publishing the podcast?
You'll be about eight days out, so this is going We're recording late Sunday
night is going up on Monday. Okay, so we'll be eight days out.
Yes, it's come ready. I'm ready to go. It's good that
you're ready because as I've been going through these things, I keep thinking that
I probably could have used like another ten or twelve days of the offseason.
I'm not gonna lie, why another ten or twelve Jayson? This is to
get my bearings a little bit more. I probably would have liked to have
had more of these podcasts out, for one, but I think we're in
kind of a marathon of basketball ever since the bubble, and the off seasons
have been short, and I'm excited as always, but I could have used
probably another just you know, maybe like ten days a week and a half.
That is fair. That is fair. So I agree with you there.
I mean, so next next, So the flip side is right,
like next year at this time, well not at this time, but next
year, we're gonna have a regular off season and we're gonna have like six
weeks of nothing instead of what like three or four weeks or nothing. Right,
We're all going to be We're all gonna be like feeding, yeah at
that point. So I mean, look, Twitter was feeding already. So
if you give them another like you know, two, three, four weeks
on top of what we just had, I I'll have to move myself from
social media for a little bit. Well that's the thing, Like you give
another three or four weeks, like you know, the takes are gonna fly.
Yeah. With the Jazz specifically, is there before you even getting into
the roster, just kind of looking at how the past two seasons ended,
where there were legitimate explanations who had happened, but they did blow two leads.
First in the bubble, the three to one lead, and then this
past year against a Clippers team. Yes, Mike Conley's banged up, Donovan
Mitchell's banged up, but the Clippers don't have Kawhie. They're up two to
ozho don't even get to a game seven. Is there, like, there's
always a sense of urgency with a team that's this good, But is there
maybe a little bit more of a sense of urgency just given how their past
two postseasons ended. I think there has to be. I think the you
know, the balance that they have to strike is, you know, the
sense of urgency combined with not panicking. Mike, you have to be they
have to be you know, secure and who they are as a team,
but they have to be urgent at the same time. And you know,
the urgency that that's around the franchise is frankly, you know, out of
the control with the players, right, So what's the urgency. The urgency
is that next year, you know, this franchise becomes a repeater luxury text
franchise. Correct, So that's the urgency there, So you know next summer,
you know, whether it's Jazzing wins a championship or not, There's going
to be some some pretty difficult decisions that have to be made, you know,
above above the level of the players. So that's the urgency there.
The urgency is the urgency that's probably in the player's control, is that you
know, Rudy Gate is thirty five years old, Joe Ingles is approaching his
mid thirties, Boy Blagdanovic is in his thirties, Mike Conley is is thirty
four years old, and you know, starting to develop a history of soft
tissue injuries, you know, things like that. So you know, the
urgency, you know, the urgency there is okay, you know, maybe
the core of the team, you know, Donovan Mitchell is twenty five and
Rudy gobert Is is it's twenty nine and still in its prime. But you
know, the core pieces around the two star pieces, you know, are
are getting a little bit longer the tooth. So there's urgency there. And
I think the general urgency urgency is that in the NBA window aren't open very
long for small market teams just aren't like if you're a if you're a small
market team, you better well take advantage of it. I mean, even
the Cleveland Cavaliers, you know, with you know, one of the three
greatest players you know ever their their window wasn't open very long, so you
know, they you know, it's it's it's definitely. It's definitely one of
those things where you know, I mean, the Jazz have a dope.
You know, you probably wouldn't label them the specific favorite, but I mean
they're they're a team that's probably a contender, and you know, they're a
team that that if if to me, if if they're going to make that
that breakthrough to get past that second round to get get to the Western Conference
finals and the NBA Finals or whatever, it's probably going to have to come
this year. And if you are them, and you already sort of alluded
to this when you were going through Bogdanovich, Conley, Joe Angles and their
age among those three, is there any one like specifically that you might be
concerned of seeing a little bit more of a starker drop off from just given
how advanced they are up in years. I mean even going through to Gay
like he said, he's thirty five and they just added him to the team
as well. Yeah, I mean, you know, is I'm probably the
most worried about Joe Angles because you know, I've seen last past two or
three years. You know, he hasn't looked fresh in the playoffs. He
hasn't looked fresh in the postseason. So if I'm the Jazz, I'm probably
going to be, you know, really careful with him this year to try
to keep him fresh for a postseason. You know, I'm worried. I'd
be worried about Mike Conley, not because of this game. I think his
game is actually, you know, pretty darn good at this level. I
mean, at this age, I think his game is it's pretty close to
his prime. But you know, soft tissue injuries are soft tissue injuries,
and when they start happening in the thirty thirty thirty year olds, you know,
hamstrings, hamstrings at the wrong time, that's something that that that you
have to be worried about. So if I'm the Jazz, especially with Jared
Butler, having Jared Butler this year, I'm gonna be really careful with Mike
Comedy. Like if I were to Jazz, I might not even play Mike
Conley and back to backs this year at all, you know, So you
know it's it's you know, those are the two that that stand out to
me. I think Bogdanovich is you know, obviously his game is you know,
he's he's he's such a catching shoe threat, and you know he's such
a threat, you know, off the dribble, you know, in terms
of closing our situations, he's he's held up pretty well. You know.
I think that that Rudy Gay, once he reinvented his game, he's held
up really well. I thought he was really good in San Antonio last year.
You know. So it's it's it's a mix in a match. I
think that, you know, as long as they are healthy, the two
constants during the regular season are gonna be, you know, have to be
Mitchell and Gobert, and then you just kind of then you just kind of
mix and match around those two. The Rudy Gobert, his course as per
usual, veered too far from reality. I think after that Clippers series and
people sort of just harp on the fact that La was smaller, and is
that really a problem for Gobert, Where it seems like the real problem was
the players. He doesn't just have athletic defenders in front of him. That's
gonna make his life more difficult when he has to deal with having, you
know, like a team that can spread the floor from all five positions.
I've also seen people mentioned that, and this is the one that I'm most
curious about that he needs to figure out a way or the Jazz need to
figure out a way for him to punish those sorts of lineups on offense because
he's so much bigger. Is that something looking offensively that the Jazz actually need
to focus like what does that look like? You're not are you really tossing
the ball to Rudy Gobert in the post against a smaller dude just trying to
capitalize on that size advantage. Well, I mean the thing that you that
you that you look at on an obvious perspective is the very next series Phoenix
the Clippers out of that small lineup, because they did that with DeAndre eight,
Like they come they you know, they said, okay, if you're
gonna put Nick Theatum or Terrence Mann or whoever you know on on eight,
and we're gonna throw eight in the ball, and he's gonna score, and
he's gonna go to he's gonna go to the offensive boards and he's he's gonna
do a number of things, you know, but also you know, Phoenix
was healthier than the Jazz last year, particularly there perimeter guys. So those
guys were able to stay in front of people. And you know, and
that's the thing with what happened with with with the Jazz against the Clippers.
It wasn't Rudy Gobert. It was the fact that the other four guys around
Rudy couldn't stay in front of anybody. And so you know, you had
you know, Donovan Mitchell wasn't able to stay in front of anybody. Mike
Conley, you know, in the game that he came back, he obviously
couldn't stay in front of anybody. Those two were those two guys were hurt.
You know, Royce O'Neill had issues with Paul George, but that was
you know, Paul George was was playing at pretty much an all time level
for him. You know, Kawhi Leonard was getting whatever he wanted, you
know, So you know, it was it was putting Rudy in impossible situations.
Okay, so do I help offer my guy and then you know,
if I help offer my guide, then there's a guy in a corner that's
gonna be taking practice level jump shots, and the Jazz made the decision that
for that game six, they were going to leave Terrence Man open, and
you know, in Terrence Man, to his credit, took advantage. So
you know, I don't you know, I think anybody who who's who saw
those games, who wants to be honest with themselves, you know, and
and you know knows the game of basketball, it should have been obvious that,
you know, that wasn't on Rudy. That was that was that was
an entire team collapsing defensively. And you know, if you want to say
that Rudy Gobert got played off the four about the Clippers, I mean that's
fine. I mean it's it's not accurate, but you know it's fine.
That's you're a prerogative. So you know, the the the point of Rudy
being able to to punish teams offensively. You know, France did it in
the Olympics and they gave they threw on the ball and if you drop the
pass, they threw on the ball again. Whether that translates to the NBA,
that's that's that's that's one thing. But I mean it at least worked
a little bit international basketball. But you know, you know, if the
Jazz are going to beat small ball line ups, they're just going to have
to guard better, you know, one on one, and that's what they
didn't do against the Clippers. The thing that's probably more concerning to me is
what has happened the past two seasons to their defense with Rudy Gobert off the
court. And I'm wondering if you think they're better built to navigate those stretches
when he's on the bench, and will they even I think a lot of
people have wondered with the addition of Rudy Gay in the non Gobert minutes,
in the you know whatever thirteen to eighteen minutes that he's not on the floor
per game for any of that time, will the experiment going actually smaller?
Should we be expecting Cassan Whiteside still to soak up majority of those stretches and
the Jazz will play with a traditional big. So the thing about it is
that in the regular season last year, the Jazz were pretty actually pretty good
in the Rudy Gobert minutes because Quinn Snyder found, you know, a formula
that work right, Like he bought Derek Favors in to play with. You
know, most of the starting lineup, those guys held their own for you
know, the back half of four first quarters, and then Mike Conley and
Rudy Gobert came back and they obliterated second units. So and then that all
changed in the playoffs when they when they ran into the Clippers, because the
Clippers were able to dictate matchups by going small. So, you know,
the question the better I don't want to say the better question, but I
think the question for me is how matchup proof can the Jazz get between now
and the playoffs, you know, seven, eight, nine months from now,
however, however long that we have to go into the playoffs. And
that's what's to me, what's going to ultimately determine their destiny because throughout Quinn
Snyder's, throughout Quinn Snyder's ten years had coach, the problem is that that
they have not been they have not been matchup proof. They run into,
you know, a team that can spread them out, you know, it's
it's it becomes detrimental for them. The difference last year this year from all
the other years is it didn't matter whether they were matching the proof or not.
Those teams were just better. The Houston teams were just better. The
Golden State teams were just better. You know, last year was the team
was the was the first team that they had that you could say, Okay,
this team can make a deep playoff runt. So you know, and
and that's why you know that the recency bias, that's why it's it's such
a start, it's such a stark you know, memory your mind. So
you know. The question going forward for this Jazz team is is if they
run into Fuller Clippers in the playoffs and those those guys try to go small
or those guys go small, if they run into another team and they go
small, or if they run into the Los Angeles Lakers and those guys play
two bigs, you know, can they match up or match down to whatever,
to whatever matchup they have to face. One of the things they do
have going for them is that one of their two most important players only just
turned twenty five. And Donovan Mitchell, he was he was so good last
year. I thought really weaponized his off the dribble. Three. There are
still things that you can obviously harp on about his game. I thought that
his overall shot selection felt like it got a little bit better. What does
the next like step from Donovan Mitchell look like? Well, like, what
are you looking or thinking that he needs to improve upon the most going forward
to help take this team sort of to that next plane. Yeah, I
think the ability to manage a game is his next step, right. And
when I say manage a game, right, like I'm thinking Mike Conley,
Chris Paul. You know, those guys are like maestros, right, they
know exactly who to get the ball to when they get the ball to that
guy, how to get the ball to that guy that needs the ball.
They know exactly which player to run, They know exactly which matchup to exploit.
And if if Donovan Mitchell, you know, I mean it's you know,
I use Chris Paul as an extreme example, like, like it's going
to be hard for anybody to ever run a team like Chris Paul runs a
team. But if Donovan Mitchell gets better at running a team to go with
what he is as an offensive threat, he becomes really leafal in terms of
in terms of what he is as a basketball player. Because as a score,
especially as a playoff scorer, he's proving to be one of the best
in the game. And you know, so I think that I think defense
is an obvious place that you that you can point too. You know,
so defensively, I use Stephen Curry as an example. And so the reason
why I use Stephen Curry as an example, right, because defensively, Stephen
Curry is never in a vacuum going to be an above average defender. But
what he is is an extremely competitive defender. So if you get Stephen Curry
in space on an island, you know you can take advantage of him.
But what Stephen Curry does well defensively, it's he works hard to not allow
himself to to to get on an island and be taking advantage of So you
know you're never going to ask Donovan like you ask Donovan Mitchell. Okay,
we need you to go and score twenty six points a game. We need
you to to get five or six assists a game. We need you to
handle thirty five or forty percent of the offensive possessions. We need you to
expend a lot of energy offensively. So we don't need you to be Kawhi
Leonard defensively. But if he can get to like the level of where Curry
is like super competitive defensively and not a detriment, then he would think he
becomes a much better overall players. So I think that that's that's the example
I would use for for for Curry there, I mean for for Donovan Mitchell
bare and he's someone who has like the capability of proving defensively, right.
I guess if you're worried about how much energy he's expending on offense and the
usage there, how much energy he has on defense is certainly something to think
about when you watch him as an actual player. He feels like someone who
should be better on defense from the point of attack, from even whatever it
is, whether he's away from the ball, whether he's just you know,
in the corners. He feels like someone who should be on a better at
defense than he is. Correct. Yeah, So here's here's a great example
of that, right, perfect example of that. Actually, So two years
ago, Game seven against Denver in the first round. You know, Jamal
Murray has been absolutely destroying the Jazz throughout that entire series, right, like
dropping fifty, doing whatever. And so for that Game seven, Donovan Mitchell
for for a large part of that Game seven, Mike Conley did as well.
They both took. You know, they said, Okay, we're going
to sit down on Jamal Murray and we're gonna move our feet and we're going
to expend a lot of energy defensively. And that game turned into a rock
fight. I believe. It was like what was the final score that game,
It was like eighty two eighty one or something like that. And Donovan
Mitchell was really really good defensively on Jamal Murray in that one game, and
he was really bad offensively. And he was really bad offensively because he was
exhausted because he had expended so much energy defensively, and he turned the ball
over I believe, on the final the next last offensive possession, just because
he didn't have the juice in his legs to get to where he needed to
go, you know, So that you have to so you don't want Donovan
Mitchell to be a turn down offensively, but you also don't want him to
max out his legs defensively and not be able to carry you offensively. So
it's a balance, and it's and it's you know, it's a it's a
balance that they're gonna have to strike. But you know, the best players
in the league, I mean, the best players in the league are guys
that that get it done on both ends of the floor. So you know,
it's definitely going to be interesting to see if Donovan can take that next
step and and and take that next step in his development. Jordan Carson was
super good last season. We did see some of his shooting percentages slip off
as the year ago went on. Do you see that performance that he had
last year as something that he can repeat. I think it's it's it's going
to depend on where's jump is, and you know, and if if he's
able to if he's able to continue to get separation to to to to figure
out the shooting and and you know, because he shot the ball really well
in the first half of the season, he didn't shoot the ball well in
the second half of the season. But but the thing that that separated Jordan
Clarkson for me last year was, you know, he was getting into the
lane off the dribble, and you know, he's getting to the basket,
he was finishing around the basket. He wasn't quite as good as that in
the second half of the season, and I think that he has to try
to get back to that as well. But you know, he was.
He was somebody who you know, carried the offense off the bench, uh,
in in large stretchers last year. I remember a game in Indiana last
year where it was something like a Jazz's third game in four nights. They
were on the road. It was a Sunday game. Uh, Donovan Mitchell
was clearly exhausted. I don't think Mike Conley was playing. You know,
Donovan had like nothing, nothing in his legs. And you know, they
were in the fourth quarter for like eight minutes. The Jazzes was like here,
Jordan's you go ahead, you take this possession, and you know,
and Clarkson created shot after shot and in basket after basket and they ended up
winning that game. And you know that that's that's stuff that Jordan did for
for the Jazz a lot last year. So you know, I mean,
I don't think you know, I mean, I don't expect him to have
you know that that was kind of a career year. I don't know if
you can get back to that level. But I mean the impact that he's
had for for the Jazz in his two years with the team, I mean,
it's it's it's it's been pretty notable. Yeah, I think the idea
of Jordan Clarkson, even when the shots aren't always going in, at least
it does. I mean, he plays in a way where defenses are almost
always going to react, which helps them. But there's definitely a noticeable difference
if his jumper is not falling. He's still like this first half or half
plus the last season though he was just absolutely molten this This question feels pointless
to ask for most contenders, but I was going over some Jared Butler film
the other day. Is he someone that could actually crack like the top ten
players like in the rotation on this team or is this is that very much
a non starter? I think he's number ten or I think he has a
chance to be number ten. I mean, so you know you're starting five.
You have Donovan Mitchell, you have you have Mike Conley, you have
Royce O'Neil Boyan, Bakdanovich and Rudy Gobert. You know, join Clarkson and
and Joe Ingles are six and seven. Rudy Gay is number eight, Hassan
Whiteside is number nine. So number ten and number eleven right now, so
you have so for number ten, you have you know, Jared Butler,
me Aoni, Elijah Hughes and and Eric Pascal all kind of voyling for that
number ten spot. And Jared Butler's you know, pretty obviously pretty obviously been
been the best of those guys, you know. So I mean I would
I would think that he has it, has a shot to be number ten,
you know. But you know the caveat is this. You know,
Quinn Snyder goes nine. If you're number ten, you're still not playing every
night. You're playing with one of the nine is not there. So the
question that I have is this, if Rudy Gay misses time in the regular
season with the off season surgery on his heel, who's number ten? Because
if if if Mike Conley or Donovan Mitchell, or Jordan Clarkson or even Joe
Ingles, if if one of those four misses a game, then I'm going
to guess that that Jared Butler is the guy that steps in for one of
those guys. But if Rudy Gay misses a game, and that's a true
front court guy, then do you do you go small and put Jared Butler
and as your number ten guy? Or do you do you give Elijah Hughes
or Eric pass gal the first crack to take Rudy Gay's minutes. And I
think that's if Rudy Gay misses time at the beginning of the regular season.
I think that's a fascinating question that's going to be answered for me. That
was my actual next question was between looking at Ony, Eric Pash Gallen,
and Elijah Hughes, which one do you think would have the best chance of
making an actual impact on this team this season. I'm still gonna say Eric
Costcal because he's capable of playing small ball five and I think that they're going
to use him as such. You know. I think the issue for him
is he's got to start making shots. I think that outside of making shots,
I think he's played relatively well. I think he's really good off the
dribble for a big guy. I think that that you know, he can
make, you know, quick decisions off the dribble. I think he can
pass the ball when he attacks close out, saying things like that. I
think that as a pick and popper he does the right things. He's just
got storming shots and he's only made like one or two shots during during during
the preseason so far, and He's had a lot of open threes, and
you know, if you're gonna play for a point, you gotta you gotta
make open shots. So, you know, I think that that's that's what
he's got a show in the next few preseason games. I had thought,
like, just before seeing anything in the preseason or looking at what the rotation
was, I thought maybe it would be only just because of you know,
he's six five as the six eleven wings man. But he doesn't even seem
like he's been like a huge staple in their preseason. Is that just something
they're out on. Has he been dealing with an injury or something that I'm
just not not aware of, or you know, what is the story there?
Yeah, I think that that he's been you know, I think that
the Jazz has been taking a pretty long look at Elijah Hughes, and I
think that he's just played well in the preseason, especially making shots. You
know, now with only I can never count him out because he has a
specific he has a specific skill that helps this team, which is his his
ability to defend on the perimeter. But he's another guy that's got to start
making shots. And you know, one thing we know about gwinn snot.
I mean he you know, he values shot making, so I think that
that that's something that's got to happen as well for me. But I do
think the Jazz really like himself. It will be interesting to see what happens
there as well. Well, you warmed my heart by making it seem like
Jared Butler has a chance to crack the top ten of the rotation. So
I'm going to be in a good mood for at least the next thirty six
hours because oh well, I mean that that's that's not lip service. The
Jazz really like Jarrebla. I I still can't believe in, Yeah, they
really like Jarrebella and the stuff that he's shown in the preseason, I got
it like there. There have been multiple times during both preseason games and I've
had to say, you know what, it's just preseason. We don't know
if this is going to translate to the regular season. But there are things
that he does. There are things that I've seen in the preseason and that
he's done off the dribble that the only two guys on that team that can
do that off the dribble with Mike Conley and Donovan Mitchell and yeah, so
yeah, I know it's preseason, but his control over the game with you
know, some of those moments with the ball in his hands, and he
had that huge game against against Dallas. That's just man, that's just like
that. It just doesn't look like rookie level stuff. And it's even even
tho it's preseason, and I know it doesn't silly matter like what his draft
position was like that is distill the number forty pick. I'm still just floored
that. And I know the reasons why he fell that far, I know
the health concerns people had. I'm still just that could end up being just
like a phenomenal steal for Utah. We fast forward a few years down the
line, not even looking at this season specifically. So he made a move
in isolation against Reggie Bullock, who is a good defender. But that's what
that's what makes it so silly. He made a move against Reggie Bullock in
isolation where you know he didn't would would a crossover, backed up, did
him with another crossover, and then hit him with a step back to where
the separation that he gained. He was above the break, he was above
the yark on the break and Reggie Bullock was basically at the file line.
So that's that's like five you know how many feet of separation? Is that?
Like five or six feet? I mean, that's kind of insane for
an NBA player to be able to do to another NBA player. Yes,
I remember the shot you're talking about. He like his step back. I
felt like he traveled six feet when he was gathering towards behind the three point
line. He also, I just I don't watch enough of college basketball to
maybe I've known this, but he seems like he just has a little like
you know, he had a floater. I think it was like in the
fourth quarter of that game where it was just like showcasing absolute control over how
to navigate the defense and just just have that little push shot in there.
He's more of an I guess in every level score than I thought that he
actually was coming in. Yeah, he's he's a three level guy. He's
got float in the lane, and he you know, he can finish at
the basket, and you know, obviously he's proficient from above the art,
so and he's just really really good off the dribble. He's just really good
off the bounce and he's a really good pick and role player. You know.
So, what are the questions about Jarre Butler? Right, we question
the health, that's an obvious question, but you know, the other the
other question is, Okay, you know, he's not overly big, He's
not you know, he's not overly athletic. But the skill level that he
has is so high that you know, the skill level is so high that
that you know, some of that stuff doesn't matter. And his ability to
run pick and roll is just it's just tremendous. So and the thing about
it is he's he's versatile offensively in terms of his style of play. So
he can play with the ball in his hands and he can play without the
ball in his hands. So that means a lot because that means he can
play with Donovan Mitchell, or he can play with Mike Conley, or he
can play with Angles, or he can play with Clarkson. You know,
he doesn't have there's not a lineup that he has to be out there with
just because of the scot style of play. And I don't think people realize
how difficult that is. You know, there's there are guys who, you
know, if they don't have the ball in their hands, they're they're just
not going to be effective at all. And and he's affective with or without
the ball in his hand. So that's that's something that that really helps him.
Looking at this roster in some whether it's a position like an archetype of
a of a player or whatever, what do you view as Utah's biggest weakness
setting into this year. I still don't think they have the definitive guy who
you know, could just go out, you know, go out there.
I think they need one more wing defender right for sure. I really like
Royce O'Neil. I think he's a tremendous defender below the fire line. I
think he's the level drops off once he gets above the fire line. Rudy
Gay's defensive numbers last year were really good. But you know, can you
say, okay, you know, soak up, you know, ten to
twelve possessions in a row on Kawhi Leonard or or Paul George or whatever.
Can he do that, you know at a playoff level? I don't know,
you know, so I think that if you are justin Zanek, I
think that the one thing that that you might want to do is still try
to uh, figure out if you can get a wing defender at some point
over the course of the year, you know, even I mean look at
Phoenix right like you know they they know I mean one number one. You
know Michael Bridges is I mean, he's he's amazing. Yes, he's amazing.
Uh. And Cam Johnson is pretty darn good himself. Yeah. But
if they need like, you know, three or four possessions, or if
they needed three or four possessions last year, what did they do? They
look down Adventure story, Craig go in there, give us three for three
or four possessions on this guy. And I don't think the Jazz have that
guy right now, you know. So I'm sorry, go ahead, I
didn't mean to do go ahead, I'm listening. I was just gonna say
the thing with Rudy Gay too, where he was kind of fine defensively,
He's like he was more of a like you call him a perimeter bid.
Like that's not someone that san Antonio was just like, hey, go out
and defend wings at the age of you know, thirty four thirty five,
right. You mentioned Royce O'Neil by the way really quickly, and this is
something that I had been doing like a while ago over the offseason that you
know, it floored me when you talk about it, but it makes sense
just contest wizing how important he is or how much Utah relies on him.
There were four hundred and four players who logged a least two hundred and fifty
minutes last year. The Ball Index does this thing where they measure how much
time they spent on the highest usage player Defensively, Royce O'Neill led the league
in the amount of defensive possessions he spent guarding the highest usages player on the
other team among those four hundred and four players. Like that's you know,
I think he's great, but like you just need, like you need to
diversify that perimeter defense somehow beyond having a Joe Ingles there or just staying the
course with you know sometimes just I mean, like you you're looking at that
if Donovan Mitchell improves, maybe that helps. But you can't really expect my
comedy to get better, Joe Ingles to get better. Boyamodanovich has like these
nights where he looks really good one on, but he's just never going to
be that guy. So that's basically just my Royce O'Neill appreciation rant. Yeah,
you know, so full disclosure. I've voted. I've voted Royce O'Neil's
second team All Defense last year. That's not egregious at all. I think
that's totally fine. I think I was one of four who gave him a
vote. But you know, like he completely like he completely deserved it,
just deserved it just because I mean it was just like, Okay, we
need okay, we're playing Kauai. We need you to go get Kauhai.
Tomorrow night we got we got Lebron, so go get Lebron. On Tuesday
night, we got Yannis, so have fun with that. Oh by the
way, this road trip continues. We got Kevin Durant and so yeah,
go ahead, go ahead, good luck with that. We all got your
back. We're good, We're good. So, I mean, you know,
I thought that he was. I thought he was terrific. You know,
credit the Clippers for being able to to figure out how to you know,
get those guys out in space and and and and and and do what
they did. But you know, Royce throughout the entire season, I mean,
he was he was pretty very important to to with the Jazz where we're
able to do. And I think that he'll be really important this year as
well. And I will say this, I think that this is I think
that this is somewhere where I think that that Eric Pascal can help. And
what I mean is this, I think Royce and in large part last year
was was Utah's toughest player. And and you know, Eric Pascal is a
tough guy, and I think really really Gay is a tough guy as well.
And you know Donovan is a tough guy. But you can't have your
best player or one of your two best players be the tough guy because they
can't be the ones taking the technical files. So I think there, I
think that that the Eric Pascal can help in that in that vein. Yeah,
I mean, look, that's a great point, and I just I
would I don't think there's any issue with I think Royce, O'Neills and all
defense caliber defender, so I would agree with you there. I mean,
like, look, the dude was it was he is six four and like
they're throwing him up against monster wings or like you know, you're seeing reps
against actual fours. Is just incredible. This question, I don't mean to
make it so simple but I think when you just look at the Jazz you
already mentioned their top seven guys are just they should be the same from last
year. And so you make those slighter tweaks towards the middle of the back
end of the rotation with a Rudy Gaia Hassan Whiteside is Eric kashcal play.
What's the actual path to this team being better because we've talked a lot about
regression from last season, but being better than last season when you look at
all they did, especially in the regular season, having the you know,
having the best record and all that, what is the pathway to them being
even better than that? So the pathway to being better is being a better
playoff teams. That's the pathway. So this team could theoretically be a three
seed will be a better team if they become a better playoff team. So
the pathway for that to me is Rudy Gay and and and Donovan Mitchell because
I think Donov Mitchell has another level that he can hit. You know,
I think he has another clear level that he can hit. And the second
the second thing is, you know, I think that Rudy Gay, if
this signing goes the way to Jazz or hoping it goes, he adds stuff
to this team that I didn't have. Like, you know, I don't
think that there was a front court guy that the Jazz could come down and
say, go get me a bucket in the in a in a playoff setting,
and I think Rudy Rudy Gay can do that. I don't think that
there was a guy that you know that you could say, Okay, we
need we need you to guard the four, or we need to go ahead
and guard to five, or we need you to spend one or two possessions
at the three. And I think Rudy Gay could could possibly do that.
I think that by the end, by the end of Game six last year
against the Clippers, you know, I think that the Jazz were down to
seven guys that that Points Snyder trusted, and you know, for all of
the depth that we talked about last year with with you know the Jazz,
you know, by the end of the playoff run, they were down to
seven guys that Quinn set trusted to put it put out there on the floor.
And I think Rudy Gay gives you you at very mentally gives you eight
guys, which is more conducive to to being a better playoff team. And
I also think Jared Butler makes them better because I love it. You were
ready for this. Jared Butler makes them makes you better because I think you
you you have a fourth guy in the backcourt that that's that's an NBA player,
you know, And I think last year there were there were three.
So if if Mike Conley missed the game last year, Joe Ingles was playing
point guard, and that was that proved to be really detrimental because by the
end, by by the end, by the time the playoffs started, Joe
Ingles was cut. He was exhausted. So you know, there are two
things I would do with Joe Ingles if I were the Jazz this year.
Number one, I would I would I would find some time to wrest them
during the regular season. And number two, I would not give him any
point guard minutes, like none, even even even though I know that Joe
Ingles can can play point guard and can handle the point. Nah, give
those men. If if Mike Conley missus time, give those minutes to Jared
Butler. If Donovan Mitchell missus time, give those minutes to Jared Butler.
If Jordan Clarks and missus time give those minutes to Jared Butler. You know,
so I think that that that those two those two theoretically, we don't
know how it's going to look during the regular season, but theoretically that makes
the Jazz a deeper team. And then, you know, then the Jazz
have to work on number one being a better playoff team and number two being
a more matchup proof playoff team. This is they're probably two ways to look
at it, and you mentioned one where you're saying, if you're the Jazz,
like the goal is still to figure out a way to go out and
get another wing. I think you could also frame this question as this team
is in the second secutive year slated to pay the luxury tax at least,
and their bill is not insubstantial at the moment, you know, compared to
how much they went over last year. We're talking like their tax payment's going
to be double digits this year as of right now, who do you think,
just based off what the Jazz need or what you think could happen this
season, who on this roster right now would you bill as the player most
likely to be traded before the deadline. I'd never like to try to go
down that road because I don't know if if if if saying that is is
fair to the player. Okay, but here's the thing, right like if
here's the thing, and this is what I know of of of Justine's annek
he the man is not afraid to make a move. Two years ago,
when I mean, you know, I give you a story. I was
interviewing Jeff Green when he was waived two years ago in Miami, like the
jazz It jest, the jazz It just acquired Jordan Clarkson. They address traded
Dante Exell for Jordan Clarkson in Miami, and you know, I was,
you know, I went up to Jeff and I said, hey, you
played with Jeff you know in Cleveland. You know, can I just talk
to you about, you know what, what what Jordan brings to the team.
And he gives me, you know, like three or four long thoughtful
answers. And then I leave the locker room and I get a text from
a source. They said, yo, you might want to check this out.
I'm here and the Jeff Green got waived. I was like the game
just ended. And the source was like, yeah, I know, it's
cold world, and so I made a phone call and I confirmed it,
and you know, in me and my colleague we reported the story, and
I remember players coming out of the locker room like what in the world just
happened? And you know, and and and you know, I think that
that's the one thing that we know. I think that's the one thing that
we really know about Justine's an it like he's if if if there's a move
to be made, he's going to be aggressive and trying to make that move
because that's that's just that's just how he's wired as a jam. So you
know, that's the long story. I mean, so it's a long winded
way of saying that if if if Justin Zanneck feels that there's that there's a
guy that can help this team with a specific skill set that count this team,
and he feels that somebody's got to go, then then somebody's gonna go.
So it's I guess that that's that's the answer that I have, or
the best answer that I have. And so do you do you think Justin
Zanek and just given how far they are into the tax I think they're like
eighteen million over or something as of right now, like it's a wild it's
a wild number. Do they have the license to stay that far over the
tax this season? Yeah, they're fine. I think they're fine for this
year. I think next summer is when you know, I think you're gonna
see some decisions may have made, especially if this team goes out in the
second round, Like it's if this team goes out in the second round doesn't
make a strong playoff push, I think that you're going to see a significantly
different roster next year. That would make a lot of sense, especially coming
back to the urgency conversation. We had just a couple of quick ones before
I get you out of here. I think this is an easy answer because
there's really only two options. Even though you could argue it's matchup dependent.
What's going to be there? Go to crunch time lineup? Is it just
a projected starting five? Do we see maybe Joe Ingles in there instead of
you know, Boyan Bogdanovitch at one point, what do you think it's just
gonna end up being there? There? Go to this season, down the
stretches of close games. I think that actually, I think that's a better
question than you think it is. Okay, I like it when I don't
ask terrible questions. So Collie, Mitchell, and Gobert are obvious. Those
are your obvious three. And then you know, and I think I think
Royce belongs. Royce belongs with that because you know, he's obvious, the
guy that that that that defends that's going to defend other crunch time scores.
So I think those four are most obvious. And then you know, then
I think that fifth spot can be rotated. I think it can be Boyan
Bogdanovitch one night or a couple of nights. So I think it could be
Rudy Gay a couple of nights. I think it could be Joe Ingles a
couple of nights. You know. So I think that those those are those
are pretty much the the I think there are going to be four constants,
and I think that there are going to be the other guys that you know,
that fifth spot can kind of rotate a little bit. If you're Quinn
Snyder, is there like a weird, offbeat, unconventional lineup that you would
try out just to see what would happen with that group of five guys.
I would love to see. I think it would be fun to see Jared
Butler, Mike Conley, Donovan Mitchell, Joe Ingles and Rudy Gay. Oh
that would be fun. That would be a fun lineup, not only to
see because if you have three guys that are just that good off the dribble
and that good at creating shots, but I'd love to see if those guys
can actually stop anybody. Yeah, but yeah, I love this. I'd
love to see that line up. The one I have penciled in is also
that three guard structure with Conley, Jared Butler and Dona Mitchell. I have
you know, it's it's sort of a less of an odd ball cap off
with Roycealneil and Rudy Gobert in there, because I was thinking, we're like
going too far out there with that three guard lineup, and like how would
this defense? Let me just take the jazz as two best defenders and throw
them next to two those three. But I just in general, I would
love to see the three guards play together and what that looks like. Well,
see, and that's the question, right, like, if if Rudy
Gay misses some some regular season time, do you throw those three guards together?
You would? I would absolutely do it. But Queennsider is a lot
smarter than I am, So who knows the actual answer to that question?
Right, that's the that's the thing. So, I mean, especially because
they're so like size, like they're all, you know, six one or
six two. Yeah, you know, so you're yeah, so you're gonna
have somebody guarding you know, a six seven guy. But you know,
the gist of the gist of that is they got to guard them on the
other end, and that could be that could be problematic. Utah is over
under as we accord this for the season as fifty three point five wins,
would you predict them to hit the over? The under on that? I
think they go over. I think this is a really good basketball team,
like great even you know, you know, I happen to think that this
team would go fifty one and thirty one if they have a bunch of injury
issues and they don't play well. So you know, if if they have
you know, a normal season, you know, I think they're they're gonna
win a lot of games. So I'm gonna take the over on that.
I think I would agree with you there. And it also feels like,
as you know, as I think difficult as it is to sort of come
up with a hierarchy in the West. Maybe this is too ambitious, but
when you look at Jamal Murray's injury in Denver, Kawai in Los Angeles,
some uncertainty elsewhere, it feels like Utah's floor might be like third in the
West this regular season. Is that too high for their floor? I think
that that that Phoenix, Utah, and the Lakers, ye are are are
in the top tier in the West. I don't know what ordered those three
finished, but I think that, like particularly the Jazz and Phoenix, I
think both of those I think they I think both of those teams are really
really good. Like I think the Jazz are really good. I think the
Phoenix is going to be really good. I think the Lakers are going to
be a team that, you know, might not be really good at first,
but by the time the playoffs start, they're really good, you know.
I mean, Jamal Murray being out until you know, March kind of
puts them on a different tier. Kawhi being out puts the Clippers on a
different tier. You know. I don't think that as good as Lucas.
You know, I probably have Dallas fourth at this point. I probably have
Golden State somewhere in between fifty six or seven, you know. But but
those three for me stand out. Dallas is the one that looks like they
might be I would pick them like they could be a really good regular season
team with the way they're built. I just I don't trust anything that Jason
Kidd has said during training camp in the preseason. If I'm a mass stand
would have me fucking scared. Actually, pardon my French there some of the
stuff that Kidd said. He only wants to put up fifteen threes again,
yeah, or wants Christops person I gets to dribble into more mid range jumpers
and getting the postmar No, that scares If I'm a Mask fan, that
scares the hell out of me. Tony. Is there anything about this team
or anyone on this team I did not ask you about that you think needs
to be discussed before I release you. No. I think we've we've we
we've covered I think we've had a really good conversation. This is this is
dope. I love it well. You heard it here first Jared Butler Rookie
of the Year pick. Both Tony and I are predicting it at this point.
I didn't say anything about aggregators. Alert Tony Butler of the Year.
You know, I knew. I knew your carload and your caffeine would take
over at some point. It's kicking. Took his kicking in and I have
had lots of I had some ice cream before this podcast. I think that's
reaching my veins as well. I knew, I knew that this would kick
in. I just said that Jared Butler might listen aggregators. I predict Jared
Butler to be the tenth man for the Youth, a top ten player in
the NBA. Yes, that's what I heard too, Tony. You're able
to tell our listeners where they can find you and the awesome work that you
do. You can find me at the Athletic and you can find me a
T. Jones on the NBA on Twitter, and you can find me a
T. Jones Athletic on Instagram. Who you're on Instagram? Yes, but
I pulled a lot of pictures of my kids on Instagram and a lot of
pictures of me and a gym, so you know. But I also post
like videos and jazz stuff. So if you actually like me as a person,
you could follow me on Instagram, I'll follow you exclusively for the gym
picks. That's what I'm gonna follow you for. I will say you're a
great follower on Twitter because you interact with your with your followers and you also
I don't remember what exactly it was, but I read it. I sent
it to some of my friends. The quote tree you had this year where
someone was saying to you like, well, why aren't they testing for like
HIV and herpies at the games? And you're you quoted it with are you
trying to smash at a basketball game? And I just couldn't stop laughing when
I saw that. I sent it to so many people. I was giggling
like I was in elementary school. I mean, well that was that was
where my mind went, Like he asked me why they're not texting for sexual
sexually transmitted diseases at the ball game? And I was I was confused used
immediately, like wait a minute, are we trying to like, you know,
are we trying to watch basketball games? Are we trying to make babs
like pick one of the pick a lane? So I didn't think you could
do both for the basketball games. So I mean, for me, you
know, me having fun at the basketball game is when I go and get
a diet coke and some skills a half time. Okay, my man was
on a totally different plane. He was like, Yo, I mean we
need to we need to test for STDs and we need to do all this
And I was like, waiting minute, what are you doing at half time
of this game? Yeah, it's like does the NBA have like an only
fans league that I didn't know about or something? But I mean, listen
it those were violid questions at the time. If that's not an endorsement of
why to follow Tony on Twitter? Thought, I don't know what else could
be at this point. I mean, he does do great work at the
athletics. So just to reiterate at T Jones on the NBA on Twitter,
so exactly as it sounds, Tony, thank you for giving me an hour
of your time on this Sunday night. I really appreciate it. And I
think, as you know, by now giving the amount of times that I
will DM you too, I'm going to pester you were getting the future.
Hey, listen, it is all good, bro, and I appreciate you
for having me on and listen, everybody needs to know how flexible Dan was
with me because I ran into some some some father issues at a previous time
that we were that we were supposed to record, and he really, you
know, he was just like, no, no problem, you know,
YadA YadA YadA, were good. And I just want to let you know
how how appreciative I was for you being really understanding with that. I am
blushing red right now. You're too kind. I think the least I could
do is be flexible when you give me this much of your time, and
as someone who does not have the responsibility of children, so kid's family definitely
more important than this rinky dink operation over at Hardwood Knox. Thank you so
much again, No, Tony, this was great. Thank you so much.
I appreciate it. Th